Messages in AquaticLife group. Page 1 of 1.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 3860 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Pleco get?/Erin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3861 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: To Erin: A thought on the pleco.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3862 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Argh FUNGUS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3863 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Thanks! +need more help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3864 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Setting my my 55 Gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3865 From: secretlaw Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3866 From: secretlaw Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Fish for Sale?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3867 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Thanks! +need more help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3868 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3869 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3870 From: bryants4god Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Algae / Snails/Mollie headstands
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3871 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3872 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: The Pleco/To Erin and all
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3873 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3874 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3875 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal/UGF
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3876 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco./Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3877 From: Seti Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Frozen food question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3878 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3879 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Frozen food question/Seti
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3880 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3881 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3882 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3883 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3884 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco./Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3885 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: To Paul again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3886 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3887 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3888 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3889 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3890 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3891 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3892 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3893 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Striped Raphael Catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3894 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3895 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3896 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Thanks! +need more help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3897 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Staring with Aquariums, Part IV
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3898 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3899 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3900 From: Aaron Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3901 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3902 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3903 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge/Paul.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3904 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge/Paul.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3905 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3906 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish/Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3907 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish/Patrick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3908 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Staring with Aquariums, Part IV
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3909 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: algae back!!!!endless battle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3910 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Badis Badis/Dario Dario.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3911 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3912 From: daniel_roachus Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3913 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3914 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3915 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3916 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3917 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3918 From: secretlaw Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Frozen food question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3919 From: dozer0011 Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3920 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3921 From: Dozer Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3922 From: Trikashaivism Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Striped Raphael fin problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3923 From: joequality1980 Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: breeding: differently colored species
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3924 From: Patrick Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: breeding: differently colored species
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3925 From: T. Lee Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: How I Solved Black Beard Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3926 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3927 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3928 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: How I Solved Black Beard Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3929 From: questnjurny Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3930 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3931 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3932 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3933 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3934 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3935 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3936 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3937 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3938 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish/Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3939 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge/Paul.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3940 From: snowflakerlw Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3941 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3942 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
Subject: Re: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3943 From: simonsmommy0117@aol.com Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: crayfish??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3944 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: crayfish??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3945 From: Lynn Whitaker Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3946 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3947 From: questnjurny Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3948 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Happy in a 10-gallon?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3949 From: Patrick Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3950 From: bryants4god Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3951 From: Patrick Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3952 From: Patrick Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3953 From: questnjurny Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3954 From: harry perry Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3955 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3956 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: sick fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3957 From: paul helms Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3958 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3959 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/3/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3960 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3961 From: harry perry Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3962 From: Patrick Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3963 From: questnjurny Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3964 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: 10 gallon tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3965 From: paul helms Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3966 From: paul helms Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3967 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3968 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 8/4/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 8/7/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3969 From: paul helms Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3970 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3971 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3972 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: breeding: differently colored species
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3973 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3974 From: paul helms Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3975 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3976 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Stocked Too Fast?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3977 From: harry perry Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3978 From: harry perry Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3979 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3980 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3981 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3982 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3983 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3984 From: AQUARIUMFISH Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Type of Lighting?? Questions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3985 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3986 From: Seti Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3987 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3988 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3989 From: Angela Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3990 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3991 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3992 From: questnjurny Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3993 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3994 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/5/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3995 From: harry perry Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Robdar4609/Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3996 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3997 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3998 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3999 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4000 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4001 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4002 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4003 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: my last post on dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4004 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4005 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4006 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4007 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4008 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4009 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4010 From: Patrick Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4011 From: Patrick Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4012 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4013 From: hspellmen Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: guppies and the rest of the animals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4014 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: guppies and the rest of the animals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4015 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4016 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: guppies and the rest of the animals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4017 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4018 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4019 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4020 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4021 From: bigter4@yahoo.com Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Betta old age?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4022 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4023 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: guppies and the rest of the animals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4024 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4025 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4026 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: not so much a problem, but a question?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4027 From: questnjurny Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: not so much a problem, but a question?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4028 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4029 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: From the Internet Scout Report
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4030 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4031 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4032 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4033 From: Xandros Desktop OS User Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Betta old age?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4034 From: questnjurny Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: Betta old age?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4035 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4036 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/6/2004
Subject: Re: badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4037 From: harry perry Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: badis/Dorothy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4038 From: ron44852000 Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4039 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: ethics and fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4040 From: Ted Angelo Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: breeding albino aeneus corydoras
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4041 From: jd7152 Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Live plant question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4042 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: breeding albino aeneus corydoras
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4043 From: questnjurny Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Too funny....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4044 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: Too funny....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4045 From: pontius2000 Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: are these fish compatible?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4046 From: wendie Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: Too funny....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4047 From: utacutie Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Help, a little confused!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4048 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4049 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4050 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4051 From: ron44852000 Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4052 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/7/2004
Subject: Re: Live plant question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4053 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4054 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Help, a little confused!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4055 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: breeding albino aeneus corydoras
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4056 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4057 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4058 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4059 From: jd7152 Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4060 From: BOEDI SANTOSO Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4061 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4062 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4063 From: Patrick Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish - boycott?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4064 From: harry perry Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4065 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4066 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4067 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4068 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: dyed fish - boycott?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4069 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4070 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4071 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4072 From: Patrick Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4073 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4074 From: Todd Fields Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4075 From: Todd Fields Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4076 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4077 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Live plant question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4078 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4079 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4080 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Live plant question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4081 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 8/8/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4082 From: paul helms Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4083 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: ethics and fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4084 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: ethics and fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4085 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4086 From: Daniel Brown Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Cleaning Gravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4087 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4088 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 335
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4089 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4090 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: CLEANING GRAVEL
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4091 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4092 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Cleaning Gravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4093 From: Jeff Schultz Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: killifish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4094 From: Bob Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4095 From: roy sanchez Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4096 From: paul helms Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4097 From: wendie Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4098 From: AQUARIUMFISH Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4099 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/9/2004
Subject: another pond question...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4100 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: bone marrow
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4101 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4102 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4103 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria "Seqüência (3) cult. de Nimph
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4104 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4105 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4106 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 337
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4107 From: fishtankbabe Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4108 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4109 From: falln_seraph Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4110 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Cobrinha Kuhli! por Julio (jccsf
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4111 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4113 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4114 From: falln_seraph Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4115 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4116 From: Patrick Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4117 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4118 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4119 From: Aranel Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Newbie...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4120 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Leopard Danios - Getting Darker?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4121 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4122 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Leopard Danios - Getting Darker?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4124 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4125 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4126 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4127 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4128 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4130 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4131 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4132 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4133 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4134 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_mat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4135 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_mat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4136 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_mat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4137 From: Daniel Brown Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4138 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4139 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4140 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Substrates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4141 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4142 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4143 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4144 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4145 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4146 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4147 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4148 From: Daniel Brown Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4149 From: Aranel Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4150 From: Aranel Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4151 From: falln_seraph Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4152 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4153 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4154 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4155 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4156 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4157 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4158 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Overdrive de lâmpadas fluoresce
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4159 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 339
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4160 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4161 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4162 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4163 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4164 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4165 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4166 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4167 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4168 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Digest 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4170 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4171 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4172 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4173 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4174 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4175 From: wendie Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4176 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4177 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4178 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4179 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4180 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4181 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4182 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4183 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4184 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4185 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4186 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Curiosidades sobre os Discos! Po
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4187 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4188 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4189 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4190 From: harry perry Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4191 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4192 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Digest Number 341 - PAULO GATTO
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4195 From: harry perry Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: A better question/To paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4196 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4197 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4198 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: A better question/To paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4199 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4200 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4201 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself fish wiiithout food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4202 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4203 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4204 From: utacutie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Foam? Help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4205 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4206 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 341 - PAULO GATTO
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4207 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself fish wiiithout food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4208 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: zebra botia
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4209 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Translating Portuguese
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4210 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4211 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Foam? Help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4212 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4213 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 342
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4214 From: L. F. Garcia Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Emails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4215 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4216 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 342
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4217 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4218 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4221 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: hello all
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4222 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4223 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4224 From: Aaron Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4225 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4226 From: paul helms Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4227 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4228 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4229 From: wendie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: axelrod's apparent fakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4230 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4231 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4232 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4235 From: harry perry Date: 8/12/2004
Subject: Re: Permission to post./Dorothy.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4236 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4237 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4238 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4239 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4240 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4241 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4242 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: A link with permission.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4243 From: paul helms Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4244 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4245 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4246 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4247 From: Patrick Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4248 From: Patrick Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4249 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4250 From: bryants4god Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4251 From: paul helms Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4252 From: paul helms Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4253 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4254 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4255 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Paul/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4256 From: Jamison Terauchi Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4257 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: NiTrates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4258 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4259 From: bryants4god Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4260 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/13/2004
Subject: Re: A link with permission.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4261 From: harry perry Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Come join us.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4262 From: boo_peeka Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Hello
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4263 From: boo_peeka Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: added photo of repaired aquarum
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4264 From: Cathey Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Eheim vs. Rena - Canister Filters?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4265 From: Cathey Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4266 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Eheim vs. Rena - Canister Filters?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4267 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4268 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Hello
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4269 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4270 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4271 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4272 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4273 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Angelfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4274 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4275 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Nano mbuna
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4276 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4277 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4278 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Angelfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4279 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Foam? Help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4280 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4281 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4282 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4283 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: Come join us.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4284 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: Re: added photo of repaired aquarum
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4285 From: wardtodd69 Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: RO Water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4288 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/14/2004
Subject: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4289 From: boo_peeka Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: added photo of repaired aquarum
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4290 From: Patrick Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: RO Water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4291 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: RO Water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4292 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: question on cory cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4293 From: harry perry Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: RO Water/Water is water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4294 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4295 From: red-eye Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: question on cory cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4296 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: question on cory cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4297 From: jd7152 Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: where did they go?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4298 From: Joseph Gumbosky Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: R/O & Purganic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4299 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4300 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: question on cory cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4301 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: question on cory cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4302 From: utacutie Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: Foam? Help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4303 From: paul helms Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4304 From: paul helms Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: Eheim vs. Rena - Canister Filters?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4305 From: paul helms Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4306 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: question on cory cats food for tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4307 From: bryants4god Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4308 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4309 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4310 From: devileye72 Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: New to the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4311 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: question on cory cats food for tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4312 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part IV
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4313 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part V
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4314 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4315 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: Re: Angelfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4316 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/15/2004
Subject: acclamate
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4317 From: paul helms Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: acclamate
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4318 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: brackish scavengers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4319 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Matéria sobre novidades no fundo do mar! Por Julio (jccsfilho).
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4320 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: Angelfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4321 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: OT - SORT OF
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4322 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: OT - SORT OF
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4323 From: Julie Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: OT - SORT OF
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4324 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4325 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4326 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4327 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4328 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4329 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4330 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4331 From: jd7152 Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4332 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4333 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4334 From: joequality1980 Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4335 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4336 From: Xandros Desktop OS User Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4337 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: fluoride
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4338 From: paul helms Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: fluoride
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4339 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4340 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4341 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4342 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4343 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4344 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4345 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4346 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: Where did they go - I found it! :)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4347 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4348 From: bryants4god Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4349 From: simonsmommy0117@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: african cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4350 From: bryants4god Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4351 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: african cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4352 From: jd7152 Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4353 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: fluoride
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4354 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: fluoride
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4355 From: devileye72 Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4356 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4357 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4358 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4359 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4360 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4361 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: New arrival
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4362 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4363 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4364 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4365 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4366 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: OT - SORT OF
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4367 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4368 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4369 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4370 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4371 From: paul helms Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4372 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4373 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4374 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4375 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4376 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4377 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4378 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4379 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4380 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: otos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4381 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4382 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Foi adicionado no fórum a matéria Palhaços criados, anêmonas e
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4383 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4384 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: otos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4385 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4386 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Danio Babies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4387 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4388 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4389 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4390 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4391 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4392 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4393 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4394 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4395 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4396 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4397 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4398 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4399 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4400 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4401 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4402 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4403 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Blood Parrot Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4404 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4405 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4406 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4407 From: jd7152 Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4408 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4409 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Guess
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4410 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4411 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4412 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4413 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4414 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4415 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4416 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: NIM: Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4417 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: americanfishguy : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4418 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Shannon: Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4419 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4420 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Danio Babies(?)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4421 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4422 From: Patrick Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: americanfishguy : Plant issues
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4423 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 354
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4424 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: thanks nim Plant issues...and also hairs ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4425 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: americanfishguy : Plant issues
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4426 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4427 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4428 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4429 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/19/2004
Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4430 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4431 From: paul helms Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4432 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Re: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4433 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Digest Number 355 - WHY FRY ?????????????
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4434 From: j.p.azz Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: tropical fish show
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4435 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4436 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4437 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4438 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/20/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4439 From: Aranel Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Mollie Changing Colors...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4440 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4441 From: ron44852000 Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Starting a plant aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4442 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4443 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Starting a plant aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4444 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4445 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4446 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: fish fry finally identified
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4447 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4448 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4449 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4450 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4451 From: devileye72 Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4452 From: Patrick Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4453 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4454 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4455 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4456 From: Jamie Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4457 From: Kristen Wesley Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Swim Bladder Disease? I feel horrible!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4458 From: Aranel Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4459 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4460 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease? I feel horrible!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4461 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4462 From: Patrick Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease? I feel horrible!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4463 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Starting a plant aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4464 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4465 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4466 From: Patrick Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4467 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: FISH NAMES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4468 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4469 From: devileye72 Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4470 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: patrick: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4471 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4472 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4473 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4474 From: devileye72 Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4475 From: devileye72 Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Posted a pic of my tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4476 From: devileye72 Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Operation Skunk Removal was a success!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4477 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Sistema de CO2 Químico! Por Ri
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4478 From: utacutie Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Is this normal?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4479 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Operation Skunk Removal was a success!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4480 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Is this normal?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4481 From: utacutie Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Is this normal?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4482 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Operation Skunk Removal was a success!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4483 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4484 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4485 From: Patrick Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4486 From: paul helms Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4487 From: paul helms Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4488 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4489 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: New endler fry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4490 From: Patrick Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4491 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4492 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4493 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4494 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4495 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4496 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/22/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4497 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4498 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Starting a plant aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4499 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Plant issues...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4500 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4501 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Stocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4502 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: netting fish (was Operation Skunk Removal)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4503 From: harry perry Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: A new group!! Species maintenance group.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4504 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4505 From: utacutie Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Question on Gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4506 From: Patrick Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Question on Gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4507 From: utacutie Date: 8/23/2004
Subject: Re: Question on Gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4508 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: I'm back
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4509 From: The Dude Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: New Fish Tank Group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4510 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Pleco Info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4511 From: Daniel Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4512 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Pleco Info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4513 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4514 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4515 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4516 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4517 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4518 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4519 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4520 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4521 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4522 From: Patrick Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4523 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4524 From: paul helms Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4525 From: paul helms Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: mark
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4526 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4527 From: Patrick Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4528 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4529 From: Seti Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4530 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Re: Pleco Info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4531 From: Jason Date: 8/24/2004
Subject: Red Finned Cigar Sharks..
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4532 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4533 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4534 From: daniel_roachus Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4535 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4536 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4537 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4538 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4539 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4540 From: Patrick Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4541 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Red Finned Cigar Sharks..
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4542 From: Seti Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4543 From: AZRA® Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4544 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4545 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Gourami/White Cloud tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4546 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Different fish died in the same way ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4547 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4548 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4549 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4550 From: Seti Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4551 From: Kristen Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4552 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4553 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: poor dead Millie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4554 From: bryants4god Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4555 From: Patrick Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Different fish died in the same way ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4556 From: Seti Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4557 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4558 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4559 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4560 From: Aranel Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4561 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 364
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4562 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4563 From: Patrick Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4564 From: Ed Feher Date: 8/25/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4565 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4566 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4567 From: Ted Angelo Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: breeding size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4568 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4569 From: la_rmarquezjr Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: hara hara catfish compatibility
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4570 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: mark
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4571 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Apple Snails!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4572 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4573 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4574 From: Aaron Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4575 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4576 From: devileye72 Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4577 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4578 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4579 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4580 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: mark
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4581 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4582 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4583 From: shailendra Indulkar Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Oxygen level and fish varities
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4584 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4585 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: mark
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4586 From: Patrick Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4587 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4588 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: breeding size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4589 From: Elyse Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Low pH troubles ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4590 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4591 From: devileye72 Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4592 From: Patrick Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4593 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4594 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/26/2004
Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4595 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/27/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4596 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/27/2004
Subject: Back on the Subject of pleco's
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4597 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/27/2004
Subject: SHIPPING FISH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4598 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/27/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4599 From: Patrick Date: 8/27/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4600 From: paul helms Date: 8/27/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4601 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4602 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4603 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4604 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4605 From: Patrick Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4606 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4607 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4608 From: freedombell2002 Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Pelco? does anyone have more then one?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4609 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4610 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4611 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4612 From: Star Wolf Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4613 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4614 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4615 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4616 From: Elyse Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4617 From: Elyse Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4618 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4619 From: bryants4god Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4620 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: OT - HOPE YOU DON'T MIND
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4621 From: red-eye Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4622 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4623 From: bryants4god Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4624 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4625 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4626 From: Patrick Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4627 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: terri, about those snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4628 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4629 From: bryants4god Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: terri, about those snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4630 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4631 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: terri, about those snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4632 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 368
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4633 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4634 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: travelling with snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4635 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4636 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4637 From: paul helms Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4638 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4639 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4640 From: harry perry Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe/Jay
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4641 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4642 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: big problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4643 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/29/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4644 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4645 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4646 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4647 From: Patrick Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank? - RTS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4648 From: Patrick Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: big problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4649 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4650 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 368
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4651 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4652 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: big problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4653 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4654 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4655 From: StarWolf Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 368
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4656 From: bryants4god Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4657 From: blp2021 Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4658 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4659 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4660 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4661 From: Joy Midkiff Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Digest Number 370- nice sharks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4662 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 370- nice sharks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4663 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4664 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4665 From: red-eye Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4666 From: red-eye Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4667 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4668 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4669 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4670 From: Aaron Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4671 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4672 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4673 From: EDITHAN1@AOL.COM Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: pond shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4674 From: Patrick Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4675 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: combining cichlids?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4676 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: combining cichlids?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4677 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Digest Number 371 - MONEY MAKER ??????
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4678 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4679 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Feeding Puffer
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4680 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4681 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4682 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer / Brackish water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4683 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4684 From: Walt Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Denitrator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4685 From: Patrick Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer / Brackish water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4686 From: Patrick Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50... - aggressive mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4687 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50... - aggressive mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4688 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer / Brackish water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4689 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4690 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4691 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/31/2004
Subject: i hate ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4692 From: molly_lec Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4693 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4694 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4695 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4696 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4697 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4698 From: StarWolf Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4699 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4700 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4701 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4702 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4703 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4704 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4705 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: How to clean a used tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4706 From: Patrick Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4707 From: harry perry Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4708 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4709 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4710 From: harry perry Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: To Wendie on tanks.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4711 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4712 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: To Wendie on tanks.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4713 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 9/4/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4714 From: sunil kamath Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4715 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 373
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4716 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4717 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4718 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4719 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4720 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4721 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4722 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4723 From: Patrick Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4724 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 9/1/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 374
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4725 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4726 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4727 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4728 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4729 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4730 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4731 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4732 From: molly_lec Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4733 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4734 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: High pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4735 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4736 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4737 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: eggs!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4738 From: Patrick Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4739 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4740 From: harry perry Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4741 From: StarWolf Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4742 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4743 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4744 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4745 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4746 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4747 From: wendie Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4748 From: molly_lec Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4749 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4750 From: StarWolf Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4751 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4752 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4753 From: molly_lec Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4754 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4755 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4756 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
Subject: Re: eggs!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4757 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4758 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4759 From: emijer Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4760 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4761 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4762 From: AZRA® Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4763 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4764 From: Pam Berg Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4765 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4766 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4767 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4768 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4769 From: Bubbles Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: New here....Hello :)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4770 From: cgyguyca Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4771 From: emijer emijer Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4772 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4773 From: Elyse Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4774 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4775 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4776 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: THROW ME YOUR OPINIONS !!!!! *grin*
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4777 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4778 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4779 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4780 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4781 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4782 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4783 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4784 From: harry perry Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4785 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4786 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4787 From: paul helms Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4788 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4789 From: Aranel Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4790 From: Aaron Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4791 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4792 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: THROW ME YOUR OPINIONS !!!!! *grin*
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4793 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4794 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Re: THROW ME YOUR OPINIONS !!!!! *grin*
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4795 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2004
Subject: Plants finally arrived
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4796 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: NIM: Altispinosus breeding colours?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4797 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4798 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4799 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4800 From: greywolfmm Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4801 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4802 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4803 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4804 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4805 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4806 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4807 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4808 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: To Joy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4809 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4810 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4811 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4812 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4813 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4814 From: greywolfmm Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4815 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4816 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4817 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4818 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4819 From: Aranel Date: 9/5/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4820 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4821 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: nitrite question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4822 From: paul helms Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: nitrite question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4823 From: paul helms Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4824 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4825 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4826 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4827 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4828 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4829 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4830 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4831 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4832 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4833 From: paul helms Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4834 From: greywolfmm Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4835 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/6/2004
Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4836 From: Aaron Martin Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: Subject Tag
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4837 From: Aaron Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4838 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4839 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4840 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: Subject Tag
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4841 From: thewheelmanswoman Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4842 From: paul helms Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4843 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: need help/advice re: cory eggs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4844 From: wendie Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: need help/advice re: cory eggs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4845 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: Planted Tanks and CO2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4846 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: need help/advice re: cory eggs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4847 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: Planted Tanks and CO2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4848 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: nitra-zorb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4849 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: Other filter uses
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4850 From: Steve Sears Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4851 From: paul helms Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: need help/advice re: cory eggs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4852 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4853 From: Sandpiper Plantation Date: 9/7/2004
Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4854 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4855 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4856 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4857 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Argonite in fw planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4858 From: audralee Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4859 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: licorice gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4860 From: bryants4god Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: Argonite in fw planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4861 From: utacutie Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: I need help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4862 From: harry perry Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: To a moderator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4863 From: simonsmommy0117@aol.com Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: cichlid question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4864 From: StarWolf Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: I have fish today!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4865 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: To a moderator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4866 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: Argonite in fw planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4867 From: bryants4god Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: Argonite in fw planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4868 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: I have fish today!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4869 From: StarWolf Date: 9/8/2004
Subject: Re: I have fish today!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4870 From: Scorp1on Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: cichlid question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4871 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: cichlid question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4872 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: cichlid question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4873 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: cichlid question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4874 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4875 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4876 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4877 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4878 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Bumblebee catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4879 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/9/2004
Subject: Re: Bumblebee catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4881 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/10/2004
Subject: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4882 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/10/2004
Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4883 From: paul helms Date: 9/10/2004
Subject: Re: help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4884 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/10/2004
Subject: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4885 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/10/2004
Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4886 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Bumblebee catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4887 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4888 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Fry not what I thought!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4889 From: harry perry Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Fry not what I thought!/Audrey
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4890 From: paul helms Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4891 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4892 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4893 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4894 From: molly_lec Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Greetings,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4895 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4896 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4897 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4898 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4899 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4900 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4901 From: paul helms Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4902 From: paul helms Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4903 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4904 From: Julie Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4905 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4906 From: paul helms Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4907 From: freedombell2002 Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4908 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4909 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4910 From: Jason Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4911 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4912 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: ps. thanks for answering
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4913 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4914 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: crayfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4915 From: Pam Berg Date: 9/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4916 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4917 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4918 From: Nikki Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4919 From: shortlid Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4920 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Red Dust Algae/Brackish Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4921 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4922 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4923 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Red Dust Algae/Brackish Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4924 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4925 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4926 From: bucks_boogie@webtv.net Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: bumble bee
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4927 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4928 From: bucks_boogie@webtv.net Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4929 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4930 From: shortlid Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4931 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4932 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4933 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4934 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4935 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4936 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4937 From: cgyguyca Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4938 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4939 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4940 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4941 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: licorice gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4942 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4943 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4944 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4945 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4946 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4947 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4948 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4949 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/13/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4950 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4951 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4952 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4953 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4954 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: gouramis/paradisefish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4955 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Stubborn well water.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4956 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4957 From: shortlid Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4958 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4959 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Stubborn well water.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4960 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4961 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4962 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4963 From: k8sl8 Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4964 From: shortlid Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4965 From: dragonsangel79 Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: help!!!please what is this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4966 From: harry perry Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: licorice gourami/To Mark
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4967 From: dragonsangel79 Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4968 From: Darcy Kane Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4969 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4970 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4971 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4972 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4973 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4974 From: bryants4god Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4975 From: paul helms Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4976 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4977 From: paul helms Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4978 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4979 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4980 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: buying fish online
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4981 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4982 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 9/14/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4983 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4984 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4985 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4986 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: buying fish online
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4987 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4988 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4989 From: Andy Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4990 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4991 From: shortlid Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4992 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Digest Number 391 - DRIFTWOOD
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4993 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4994 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4995 From: Andy Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4996 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4997 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Long siphon tube...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4998 From: questnjurny Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 4999 From: questnjurny Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Platy colours
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5000 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5001 From: Seti Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Any advice on automatic feeders?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5002 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5003 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Long siphon tube...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5004 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5005 From: dragonsangel79 Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5006 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5007 From: Darcy Kane Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5008 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Apple Snails!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5009 From: shortlid Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5010 From: Gary Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Any advice on automatic feeders?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5011 From: bryants4god Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5012 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5013 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Long siphon tube...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5014 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5015 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: Long siphon tube...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5016 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5017 From: Julie Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5018 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5019 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Digest Number 392 - DRIFTWOOD
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5020 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5021 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5022 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5023 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5024 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5025 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5026 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5027 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5028 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5029 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5030 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5031 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5032 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5033 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: New file uploaded to FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5034 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5035 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5036 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5037 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5038 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5039 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5040 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 392 - DRIFTWOOD
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5041 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Digest Number 393 - CRAWDADS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5042 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5043 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5044 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5045 From: freedombell2002 Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5046 From: Irene Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Rocks made of Polyresin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5047 From: freedombell2002 Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5048 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5049 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society , 9/19/2004, 2:00 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5050 From: harry perry Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis/Ray
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5051 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5052 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5053 From: bryants4god Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5054 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5055 From: bryants4god Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5056 From: Darcy Kane Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5057 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5058 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5059 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5060 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5061 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5062 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5063 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5064 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5065 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5066 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5067 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5068 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/16/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5069 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5070 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5071 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5072 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5073 From: bucks_boogie@webtv.net Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5074 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5075 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: mean scat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5076 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5077 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5078 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5079 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5080 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5081 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5082 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5083 From: shortlid Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Do the vaction feeders work??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5084 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5085 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5086 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5087 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis/Ray
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5088 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Do the vaction feeders work??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5089 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis/Harry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5090 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5091 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5092 From: shortlid Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Small amount of SALT in Fresh Water Tropical Aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5093 From: Michelle in PDX Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5094 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5095 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5096 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5097 From: CAROL Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Grieving Plecostomus - Advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5098 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5099 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5100 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5101 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5102 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia and Live Plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5103 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5104 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5105 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Endler's Livebearers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5106 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5107 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Ammonia and Live Plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5108 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5109 From: Patrick Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5110 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's Livebearers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5111 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5112 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5113 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5114 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Protected Resources--Marine Species
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5115 From: Beatrice1292@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: fast koi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5116 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5117 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5118 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5119 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5120 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5121 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5122 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails-substrate change out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5123 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5124 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails-substrate change out
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5125 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5126 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5127 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: fast koi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5128 From: Jason Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: 1 Fry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5129 From: Jason Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Speaking of red finned cigar sharks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5130 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5131 From: ben olds Date: 9/17/2004
Subject: Re: fast koi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5132 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5133 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5134 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: back from vacation and have a couple questions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5135 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks (Joel)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5136 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5137 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 397
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5138 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 397
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5139 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5140 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5141 From: Tom Reagin Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: advantages of bio wheel filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5142 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5143 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5144 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5145 From: bryants4god Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5146 From: Beatrice1292@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5147 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5148 From: red-eye Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Speaking of red finned cigar sharks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5149 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Favorite low/med light plant...??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5150 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Favorite low/med light plant...??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5151 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Favorite low/med light plant...??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5152 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5153 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: advantages of bio wheel filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5154 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5155 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5156 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: fast koi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5157 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5158 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5159 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5160 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5161 From: Kristen Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Hi...I'm new with some questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5162 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5163 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Best Tank Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5164 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Puffer Fish Food Options
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5165 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5166 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Puffer feeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5167 From: Keith g Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5168 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5169 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 10/1/2004, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5170 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5171 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5172 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5173 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5174 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Hi...I'm new with some questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5175 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5176 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5177 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5178 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5179 From: bryants4god Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5180 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5181 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5182 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5183 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society , 9/19/2004, 2:00 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5184 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5185 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5186 From: StarWolf Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5187 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5188 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5189 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5190 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5191 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5192 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5193 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Signatures!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5194 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Endler's livebearers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5195 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Puffer feeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5196 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Changing Water Type
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5197 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Suffering Fish, need help again.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5198 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Changing Water Type
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5199 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, need help again.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5200 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5201 From: paul helms Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5202 From: paul helms Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, need help again.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5203 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, need help again.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5204 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5205 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5206 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking/To Lorelei
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5207 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: i have fish problems too major
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5208 From: Aaron Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5209 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5210 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5211 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking/To Lorelei
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5212 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5213 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Starting with Aquariums Part VI
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5214 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5215 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5216 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5217 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Is this a good product to use?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5218 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5219 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: is this a pond group?...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5220 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5221 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5222 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5223 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5224 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5225 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: is this a pond group?/Why not ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5226 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5227 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5228 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5229 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5230 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5231 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: To Lorelei
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5232 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5233 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5234 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5235 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5236 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5237 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Brown Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5238 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5239 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/To Robb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5240 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquariumtoo major/Regroup/flourish excel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5241 From: Robin Fleener Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: New member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5242 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5243 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5244 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5245 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5246 From: questnjurny Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5247 From: paul helms Date: 9/19/2004
Subject: Re: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5248 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5249 From: Aranel Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5250 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5251 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5252 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try t...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5253 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5254 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5255 From: shortlid Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks (Joel)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5256 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks (Joel)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5257 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5258 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: thanks nim i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5259 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5260 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5261 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: thanks nim i have fish problems too major/Regroup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5262 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5263 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5264 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5265 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: thanks nim i have fish problems too majo...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5266 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5267 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5268 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5269 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5270 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5271 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: RAY [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] i have fish problems too maj
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5272 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5273 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: major fish problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5274 From: crickit99 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5275 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: major fish problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5276 From: Aranel Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5277 From: Aranel Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5278 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5279 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5280 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5281 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Bully Dwarf Gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5282 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: De-lurking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5283 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5284 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5285 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: cory cat help?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5286 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/To Robb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5287 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5288 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: To Lorelei
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5289 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5290 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: differnt view [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: cory cat help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5291 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5292 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5293 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5294 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5295 From: Steve Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5296 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Neat home made tool...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5297 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Help...my betta has
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5298 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/20/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5299 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Photos!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5300 From: Steve Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5301 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5302 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5303 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5304 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5305 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5306 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5307 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5308 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5309 From: joequality1980 Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5310 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5311 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5312 From: Seti Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Question about calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5313 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5314 From: bryants4god Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Question about calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5315 From: Seti Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Question about calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5316 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5317 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: NIM [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5318 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5319 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: RAY ONE more question[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] I got results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5320 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5321 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5322 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: morning results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5323 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5324 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5325 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: morning results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5326 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: NIM [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] morning results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5327 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Carbon VS Calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5328 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Shannon - I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5329 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5330 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5331 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Fat Fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5332 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Mollies and Guppies!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5333 From: joequality1980 Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5334 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5335 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: SHANNON: No Problem [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] I got resu
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5336 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5337 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Ray [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Shannon - I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5338 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: SHANNON: No Problem [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] I got resu
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5339 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5340 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5341 From: paul helms Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5342 From: paul helms Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5343 From: crickit99 Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5344 From: crickit99 Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5345 From: Steve Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: External Filter system
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5346 From: Steve Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5347 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5348 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Bigger Bowl for Thai
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5349 From: Phil Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5350 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Phosphate troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5351 From: salmarcus Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Phosphate Troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5352 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5353 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5354 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5355 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5356 From: paul helms Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5357 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5358 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5359 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
Subject: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5360 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5361 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5362 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5363 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5364 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5365 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5366 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5367 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5368 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5369 From: shortlid Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Gouramis
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5370 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 402
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5371 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Water Chemistry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5372 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Water Chemistry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5373 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Water Chemistry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5374 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5375 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: OK, so I'm Lazy,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5376 From: dawnmvo Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5377 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5378 From: crickit99 Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5379 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Brown Algae/To Robb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5380 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: gourami
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5381 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5382 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5383 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5384 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5385 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5386 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5387 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5388 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Carbon VS Calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5389 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5390 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5391 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Carbon VS Calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5392 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5393 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5394 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Carbon VS Calcium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5395 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5396 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5397 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5398 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5399 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5400 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5401 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5402 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5403 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5404 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Our Photos!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5405 From: dawnmvo Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: thanks for the cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5406 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Our Photos!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5407 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5408 From: welovesofttofu Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: comet goldfish help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5409 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5410 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's Livebearers and Egg Layers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5411 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Our Photos!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5412 From: arch1574 Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's Livebearers and Egg Layers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5413 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5414 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5415 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5416 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: thanks for the cycle info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5417 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5418 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5419 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5420 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5421 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5422 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 10/2/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5423 From: Steve Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5424 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5425 From: Steve Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5426 From: Steve Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5427 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5428 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5429 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5430 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5431 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5432 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5433 From: Kristen Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5434 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5435 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5436 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5437 From: Chris Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5438 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Big thanks...OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquari.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5439 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5440 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5441 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: money in tanks/ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5442 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5443 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5444 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Our Photos!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5445 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's/egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5446 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Our Photos!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5447 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5448 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5449 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5450 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5451 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: newly planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5452 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5453 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 411
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5454 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 411
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5455 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5456 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's/egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5457 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5458 From: Aranel Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5459 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5460 From: Carolyn Nagle Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5461 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5462 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: pennies/ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5463 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: money in tanks/ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5464 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5465 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5466 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: bioloads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5467 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: money in tanks/ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5468 From: Kristen Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5469 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5470 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5471 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5472 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5473 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5474 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5475 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5476 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5477 From: Aranel Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5478 From: Aranel Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5479 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5480 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5481 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5482 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5483 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5484 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 413
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5485 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5486 From: Keith g Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5487 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5488 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5489 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5490 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5491 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: platies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5492 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5493 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5494 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5495 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5496 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5497 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5498 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5499 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads (and replying)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5500 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5501 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5502 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5503 From: Carolyn Nagle Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5504 From: Dozer Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5505 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5506 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5507 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5508 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Cycle
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5509 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5510 From: crickit99 Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5511 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5512 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5513 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads (and replying)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5514 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5515 From: ben olds Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5516 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5517 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5518 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5519 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5520 From: wjcoldman Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Blue Moscow Guppies -virgin females
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5521 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5522 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5523 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Need some help deciding....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5524 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: aquapet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5525 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
Subject: Re: Tank size
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5526 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5527 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5528 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: newly planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5530 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5531 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Debates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5532 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5533 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Need some help deciding....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5534 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Great gardening info has fishie connection, too!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5535 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5536 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5537 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Need some help deciding....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5538 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5539 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5540 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Need some help deciding....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5541 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5542 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5543 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Debates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5544 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5545 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Debates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5546 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5547 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5548 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Debates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5549 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5550 From: harry perry Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Heated "debates", losing members, To all from a moderator.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5551 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5552 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5553 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5554 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5555 From: harry perry Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Debates/Fleener family.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5556 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5557 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5558 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5559 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5560 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5561 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5562 From: wjcoldman Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Plant tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5563 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5564 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5565 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5566 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5567 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: egglayers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5568 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Buddy for Puffer Fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5569 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: aquapet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5570 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5571 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5572 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5573 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5574 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5575 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5576 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5577 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5578 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Thai, and new aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5579 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Plant tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5580 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: Re: Thai, and new aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5581 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/24/2004
Subject: JD/Oscar
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5582 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5583 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5584 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5585 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5586 From: Steve Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5587 From: Steve Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5588 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5589 From: Elyse Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5590 From: Elyse Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5591 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5592 From: bryants4god Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5593 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5594 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5595 From: Aaron Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: aquapet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5596 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5597 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 418
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5598 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5599 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5600 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: names of mods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5601 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Snipped posts, digests, moderator help. To all members.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5602 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: My mistake
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5603 From: Julie Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Thank you Harry and snipped posts (my .02)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5604 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: Thank you Harry /To Julie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5605 From: paul helms Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: aquapet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5606 From: paul helms Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5607 From: paul helms Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: aquapet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5608 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: names of mods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5609 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/25/2004
Subject: Re: names of mods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5610 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Peat filtered water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5611 From: paul helms Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Re: Peat filtered water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5612 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Re: Peat filtered water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5613 From: harry perry Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Re: Peat filtered water/careful.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5614 From: helen572 Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: S. A. cichlids: How many convicts okay for a 20-gallon long?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5615 From: Steve Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part VII
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5616 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5617 From: paul helms Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5618 From: paul helms Date: 9/26/2004
Subject: Re: S. A. cichlids: How many convicts okay for a 20-gallon long?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5619 From: gir_the_hobbit Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: Introductions!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5620 From: gail_stanwyck Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: HELP with new 10 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5621 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5622 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 10/1/2004, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5623 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5624 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5625 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/27/2004
Subject: crypt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5626 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: HELP with new 10 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5627 From: shortlid Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Hatchet about to get the axe!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5628 From: shortlid Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Air Pump good idea for Whisper Power filter?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5629 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: Hatchet about to get the axe!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5630 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: snails in cycling tank!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5631 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: Air Pump good idea for Whisper Power filter?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5632 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: Hatchet about to get the axe!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5633 From: Bubbles Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Fish Question...Can someone help ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5634 From: Aaron Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Light source for freshwater planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5635 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5636 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5637 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Question...Can someone help ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5638 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
Subject: Re: snails in cycling tank!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5639 From: paul helms Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: posts
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5640 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Light source for freshwater planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5641 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Light source for freshwater planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5642 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Light source for freshwater planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5643 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: posts
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5644 From: shortlid Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Hatchet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5645 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5646 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Hatchet
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5647 From: joesalpepe Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Danios and Barbs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5648 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Danios and Barbs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5649 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: posts
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5650 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5651 From: paul helms Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5652 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Danios and Barbs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5653 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5654 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5655 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5656 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5657 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5658 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5659 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 10/2/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5660 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5661 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5662 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Danios and Barbs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5663 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5664 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
Subject: something different about danios and a single killifish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5665 From: joesalpepe Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5666 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a single killifish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5667 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5668 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5669 From: joequality1980 Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5670 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5671 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: 6 gallon Eclipse...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5672 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5673 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5674 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5675 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5676 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5677 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5678 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5679 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5680 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5681 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5682 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5683 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5684 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5685 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5686 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5687 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5688 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5689 From: joesalpepe Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: RE.Six gallon eclipse
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5690 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5691 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5692 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5693 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: RE.Six gallon eclipse
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5694 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5695 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: snakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5696 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5697 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/30/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5699 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: RE.Six gallon eclipse
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5700 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5701 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: 6 gal eclipse
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5702 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5703 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5704 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5705 From: shortlid Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5706 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5707 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5708 From: freedombell2002 Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: snakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5709 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5710 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5711 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5712 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5713 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: snakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5714 From: straubtyler Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5715 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5716 From: straubtyler Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: snakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5717 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5718 From: shortlid Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5719 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5720 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5721 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5722 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Lots of baby fishies...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5723 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5724 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Lots of baby fishies...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5725 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5726 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5727 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Lots of baby fishies...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5728 From: Rob And Joyce Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Anyone near Buffalo?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5729 From: shortlid Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5730 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5731 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Lots of baby fishies...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5732 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5733 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5734 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: snakes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5735 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: as of friday something different about danios and a s...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5736 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Ray Re: something different about danios and...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5737 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Crawdad
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5738 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5739 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 427
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5740 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: possible amonia spike bleeding hearts with red on the underside
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5741 From: msaathof Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5742 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5743 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5744 From: Walter Cain Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5745 From: straubtyler Date: 10/1/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5746 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Clown digging Holes???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5747 From: harry perry Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: An excellent fry sponge filter.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5748 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Ray Re: something different about danio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5749 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5750 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: as of friday something different about d...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5751 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Clown digging Holes???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5752 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5753 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 426
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5754 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Ray Re: something different about danio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5755 From: crickit99 Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5756 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5757 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5758 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5759 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5760 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5761 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Algone?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5762 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5763 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5764 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/2/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy - livebearer hybrids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5765 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5766 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5767 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 427
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5768 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5769 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Patrick_OT
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5770 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 427
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5771 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick_OT
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5772 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick_OT
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5773 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5774 From: paul helms Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5775 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Patrick or anyone else help on red gills
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5776 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5777 From: dannomom Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5778 From: straubtyler Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick_OT
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5779 From: straubtyler Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5780 From: secretlaw Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: albino eureka cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5781 From: paul helms Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: albino eureka cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5782 From: paul helms Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5783 From: Steve Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5784 From: Steve Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5785 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5786 From: Steve Date: 10/3/2004
Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part VII
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5787 From: shortlid Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales, dead
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5788 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5789 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick or anyone else help on red gills
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5790 From: Sarah Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5791 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5792 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Betta breeding ...and red gills
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5793 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5794 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5795 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5796 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5797 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5798 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5799 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales, dead
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5800 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5801 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5802 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5803 From: aaoo881 Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Saltwater to Freshwater?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5804 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Saltwater to Freshwater?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5805 From: kacee Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: need help again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5806 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5807 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Patrick or anyone else help on red gills
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5808 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: algae and using a mag float
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5809 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5810 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5811 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: need help again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5812 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5813 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5814 From: Larry Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5815 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5816 From: msaathof Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Sword Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5817 From: kacee Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Problem solved
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5818 From: Steve Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5819 From: Steve Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Can a Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5820 From: red-eye Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5821 From: red-eye Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: need help again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5822 From: straubtyler Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5823 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: Problem solved
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5824 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5825 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
Subject: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5826 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5827 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Sword Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5828 From: jim Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Sword Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5829 From: jim Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5830 From: straubtyler Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5831 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Sword Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5832 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5833 From: moonreachers Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Phantax?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5834 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5835 From: shortlid Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Cucumber for Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5836 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: using salt in freshwater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5837 From: Erin Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: help me asap please!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5838 From: kacee Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: otto cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5839 From: kacee Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Cucumber for Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5840 From: bryants4god Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Cucumber for Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5841 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Sword Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5842 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: otto cats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5843 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: help me asap please!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5844 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5845 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5846 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5847 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5848 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5849 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5850 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Phantax?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5851 From: Siestadream Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Phantax?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5852 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5853 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5854 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5855 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5856 From: Tim Walker Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Problem solved
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5857 From: Erin Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Internal bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5858 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5859 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5860 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5861 From: Steve Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5862 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5863 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5864 From: skywhit@yahoo.com Date: 10/5/2004
Subject: Aquarium Stores in New York City
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5865 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5866 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Stores in New York City
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5867 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Stores in New York City
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5868 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5869 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5870 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5871 From: straubtyler Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5872 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5873 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Internal bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5874 From: Nimish Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5875 From: Nimish Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5876 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5877 From: Nimish Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5878 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Cucumber for Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5879 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5880 From: joesalpepe Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Two qusetions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5881 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5882 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5883 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5884 From: straubtyler Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5885 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5886 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5887 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Internal bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5888 From: shortlid Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: New angel geting beat-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5889 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5890 From: emijer Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: I Need Opinions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5891 From: emijer Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: I Need Opinions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5892 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5893 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5894 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5895 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5896 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5897 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5898 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5899 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5900 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5901 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5902 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5903 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5904 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5905 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5906 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5907 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5908 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5909 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5910 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5911 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5912 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5913 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5914 From: dawana325 Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5915 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5916 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5917 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5918 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5919 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: adding question about water changes ...Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5920 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5921 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5922 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5923 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5924 From: Nimish Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: adding question about water changes ...Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5925 From: Erin Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: adding question about water changes ...Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5926 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5927 From: emijer emijer Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5928 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5929 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5930 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5931 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5932 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5933 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5934 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5935 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: treating ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5936 From: straubtyler Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: treating ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5937 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5938 From: straubtyler Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5939 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5940 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5941 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5942 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5943 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5944 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: treating ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5945 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: treating ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5946 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5947 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5948 From: Captain Kidd Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5949 From: Erin Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5950 From: sandpiperplantation Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5951 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5952 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5953 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5954 From: Erin Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5955 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5956 From: Cathey Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Favorite Canister Filter?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5957 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Favorite Canister Filter?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5958 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5959 From: Pat K. Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: some advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5960 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
Subject: Re: some advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5961 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5962 From: bryants4god Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Favorite Canister Filter?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5963 From: straubtyler Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5964 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5965 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5966 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: water changes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5967 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5968 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: water changes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5969 From: audralee Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: water changes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5970 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: water changes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5971 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5972 From: Julie Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5973 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5974 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5975 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5976 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5977 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5978 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5979 From: shortlid Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Do I need new scavengers?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5980 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5981 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5982 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5983 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5984 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5985 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5986 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5987 From: straubtyler Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Do I need new scavengers?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5988 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5989 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5990 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5991 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5992 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5993 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5994 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5995 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5996 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5997 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5998 From: J. Pascavage Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 5999 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6000 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: Weird test results (update)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6001 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6002 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6003 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6004 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6005 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6006 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6007 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6008 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6009 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6010 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6011 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6012 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6013 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6014 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6015 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6016 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6017 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6018 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6019 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6020 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Cories and Re: Fleas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6021 From: jim Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: advice & pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6022 From: Erin Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6023 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6024 From: loreleicosner Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6025 From: loreleicosner Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Making sure....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6026 From: paul helms Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6027 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Switching tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6028 From: jim Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6029 From: paul helms Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6030 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: some advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6031 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6032 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6033 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6034 From: Steve Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: water changes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6035 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6036 From: Steve Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Making sure....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6037 From: rojeriko Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: any review about Hagen
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6039 From: Julie Date: 10/9/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6040 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6041 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6042 From: harry perry Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Sources please!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6043 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: advice
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6044 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Sources please!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6045 From: harry perry Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: advice/To Nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6046 From: harry perry Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Sources please!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6047 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: advice/To Nim
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6048 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Sources please!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6049 From: Steve Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6050 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6051 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6052 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6053 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Do I need new scavengers?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6054 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6055 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset ooxygenator-oxydator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6056 From: red-eye Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6057 From: red-eye Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6058 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6059 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6060 From: jim Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6061 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6062 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6063 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6064 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6065 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6066 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: New cory cat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6067 From: Steve Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Very Upset
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6068 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6069 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: pics of tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6070 From: Captain Kidd Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Live or Frozen Food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6071 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6072 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: New cory cat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6073 From: Erin Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6074 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/10/2004
Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6075 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6076 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: New cory cat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6077 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6078 From: red-eye Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6079 From: secretlaw Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6080 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6081 From: Nimish Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6082 From: shortlid Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Scissor Tails geting there tails SNIPED!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6083 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6084 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6085 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6086 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6087 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6088 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6089 From: red-eye Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6090 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6091 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6092 From: Erin Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6093 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6094 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6095 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6096 From: jim Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6097 From: jim Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6098 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6099 From: ben olds Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6100 From: dawana325 Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Opinions please...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6101 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: New cory cat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6102 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: New cory cat
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6103 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Opinions please...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6104 From: red-eye Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Very upset...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6105 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
Subject: Re: Opinions please...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6106 From: subodh chand Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 444
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6107 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6108 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6109 From: jim Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: Opinions please...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6110 From: jim Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: cory pic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6111 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6112 From: secretlaw Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6113 From: secretlaw Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6114 From: Aaron Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: cory pic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6115 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: cory pic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6116 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6117 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6118 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6119 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6120 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6121 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: cory pic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6122 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6123 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: New Pics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6124 From: straubtyler Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6125 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6126 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6127 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6128 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/12/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6129 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6130 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6131 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6132 From: shortlid Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6133 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6134 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6135 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6136 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6137 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: air bubbles and O2/testkits
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6138 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6139 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6140 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6141 From: shortlid Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6142 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6143 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6144 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6145 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost Shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6146 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6147 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6148 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6149 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6150 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: started treatment for ich but need clafication
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6151 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6152 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6153 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafication
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6154 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6155 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafication
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6156 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafication
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6157 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6158 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6159 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6160 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6161 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6162 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6163 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6164 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6165 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6166 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6167 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6168 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6169 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6170 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6171 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: salted frogs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6172 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich and salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6173 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: salted frogs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6174 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: ich and salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6175 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: update wed night started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6176 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: salted frogs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6177 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: update wed night started treatment for ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6178 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: update wed night started treatment for ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6179 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: Re: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6180 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/13/2004
Subject: algae issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6181 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6182 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: 2 questions started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6183 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich but need clafi...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6184 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6185 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6186 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6187 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6188 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6189 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: algae issue
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6190 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: ich and salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6191 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6192 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6193 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6194 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Thanks.. 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6195 From: paul helms Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: ich and salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6196 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6197 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: ich and salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6198 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Re: Thanks.. 2 questions started treatment ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6199 From: rain_a13 Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Some question about chiller... (long one, sorry)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6200 From: Steve Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: Catfish 2004
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6201 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
Subject: answering questions and one more question... started treatment ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6202 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6203 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: as of thursday night answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6204 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: how long do fish live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6205 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: how long do fish live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6206 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6207 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: nim.. how long do fish live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6208 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6209 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6210 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the t...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6211 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6212 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6213 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: how long do fish live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6214 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6215 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6216 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6217 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6218 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6219 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6220 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6221 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6222 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6223 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6225 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6226 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6227 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6228 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6229 From: paul helms Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6230 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6231 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6232 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6233 From: dawana325 Date: 10/15/2004
Subject: Fish & high pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6234 From: daniel_roachus Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6235 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: eclipse retro
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6236 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Fish & high pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6237 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6238 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6239 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6240 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6241 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6242 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6243 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6244 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6245 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6246 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6247 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6248 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6249 From: Ben OLDS Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Lake malawi cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6250 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Lost a platy :(
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6251 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6252 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6253 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6254 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6255 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Lake malawi cichlids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6256 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6257 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: my hatchet fish MJB Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6258 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Maybe something good,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6259 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: eclipse retro
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6260 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6261 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6262 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: my hatchet fish MJB Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6263 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6264 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6265 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6266 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: saturday ich update ray
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6267 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Lost a platy :(
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6268 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6269 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6270 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6271 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6272 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6273 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6274 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6275 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6276 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6277 From: helen572 Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Help: my cichlids are fighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6278 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6279 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6280 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Best method to disinfect
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6281 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6282 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6283 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6284 From: Benedick Mark N. Chan Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6285 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Need help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6286 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6287 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6288 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Best method to disinfect
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6289 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Help: my cichlids are fighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6290 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6291 From: wendie Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Best method to disinfect
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6292 From: Steve Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6293 From: Michelle Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6294 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6295 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6296 From: paul helms Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6297 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6298 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6299 From: Michelle Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6300 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Help: my cichlids are fighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6301 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: ich update on sunday night
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6302 From: paul helms Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6303 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: ICH got my Pictus cat... HELP!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6304 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6305 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/17/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 456
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6306 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6307 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6308 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6309 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ich update on sunday night
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6310 From: Aranel Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: substrate?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6311 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ich update on sunday night
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6312 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: High pH?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6313 From: straubtyler Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat... HELP!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6314 From: wendie Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Using a dechlorinator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6315 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6316 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Using a dechlorinator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6317 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6318 From: paul helms Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Using a dechlorinator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6319 From: paul helms Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6320 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6321 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6322 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6323 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6324 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6325 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6326 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6327 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6328 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6329 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6330 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6331 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6332 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6333 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ich update on sunday night
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6334 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: NO more water changes for me ich update on sunday night
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6335 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6336 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: FREE FISH IN DE - EASTERN SHORE OF MD
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6337 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6338 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: NO more water changes for me ich update ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6339 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6340 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6341 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: question which way to go Ray air pumps saturday ich update shannon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6342 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: NO more water changes for me ich update ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6343 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6344 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6345 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6346 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6347 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6348 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6349 From: paul helms Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6350 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6351 From: audralee Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: High pH?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6352 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6353 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: question which way to go Ray air pumps ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6354 From: shortlid Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Three Rainbows down to two?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6355 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: NO more water changes for me ich update ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6356 From: paul helms Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6357 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6358 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6359 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6360 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: question which way to go Ray air pumps ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6361 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Tap water purifier?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6362 From: Robb Rouse Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Tap water purifier?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6363 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Tap water purifier?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6364 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6365 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Tap water purifier?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6366 From: Steve Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6367 From: Steve Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Scissor Tails geting there tails SNIPED!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6368 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6369 From: renee31477 Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6370 From: julie_hash Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: High pH?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6371 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/19/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6372 From: Travis Walker Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6373 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6374 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6375 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6376 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6377 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6378 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6379 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6380 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6381 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6382 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6383 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6384 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6385 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6386 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6387 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6388 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6389 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6390 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6391 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6392 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6393 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6394 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: question which way to go Ray air pumps ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6395 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6396 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Measuring a fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6397 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6398 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6399 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6400 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Goldfish Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6401 From: Elyse Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6402 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6403 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6404 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6405 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6406 From: Michelle Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Whom do i keep my eye on??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6407 From: Tim Walker Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6408 From: Aranel Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6409 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6410 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6411 From: paul helms Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6412 From: paul helms Date: 10/20/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6413 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6414 From: red-eye Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Goldfish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6415 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6416 From: shortlid Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Blue Gourami gone from spining thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6417 From: shortlid Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: spinning fish...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6418 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Blue Gourami gone from spining thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6419 From: shortlid Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Rainbows
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6420 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: ending treatment for ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6421 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6422 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6423 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6424 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Rainbows
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6425 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6426 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Rainbows
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6427 From: Chris Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6428 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6429 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6430 From: Michelle Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Chemical water stabilizers?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6431 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Chemical water stabilizers?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6432 From: Steve Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Blue Gourami gone from spining thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6433 From: wjcoldman Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6434 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6435 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6436 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6437 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6438 From: paul helms Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6439 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6440 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6441 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6442 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: ICH AND TETRA'S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6443 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6444 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6445 From: paul helms Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: Broken Heater
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6446 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6447 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/22/2004
Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6448 From: Steve Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6449 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6450 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6451 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 466
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6452 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 466
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6453 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6454 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6455 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 466
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6456 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 11/5/2004, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6457 From: rob Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: ideal food for Jurupari
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6458 From: neshs84 Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Water Quality?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6459 From: harry perry Date: 10/23/2004
Subject: Re: Water Quality?/To Ganesh
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6460 From: paul helms Date: 10/24/2004
Subject: Re: Water Quality?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6461 From: Scorp1on Date: 10/24/2004
Subject: Re: Water Quality?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6462 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/24/2004
Subject: Re: bent Mickey Mouse Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6463 From: Tim Walker Date: 10/24/2004
Subject: Re: Some question about chiller... (long one, sorry)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6464 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/24/2004
Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6465 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: Water Quality?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6466 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6467 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: Water Quality?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6468 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Planted aquarium lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6469 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: Planted aquarium lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6470 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6471 From: shortlid Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: FW Flounder
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6472 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6473 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Aponogeton rest period ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6474 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6475 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6476 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6477 From: red-eye Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6478 From: red-eye Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6479 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: update on bent Mickey Mouse Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6480 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6481 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6482 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6483 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6484 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/25/2004
Subject: Re: update on bent Mickey Mouse Platy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6485 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6486 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Aquarium Heaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6487 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Heaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6488 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6489 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6490 From: red-eye Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Heaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6491 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: clown knife fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6492 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: clown knife fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6493 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Heaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6494 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6495 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6496 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: clown knife fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6497 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: clown knife fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6498 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6499 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6500 From: jim Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6501 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/26/2004
Subject: Re: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6502 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: clown knife fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6503 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6504 From: shortlid Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6505 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6506 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6507 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6508 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: FW Flounder
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6509 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6510 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6511 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6512 From: The Dude Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Pregnant Fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6513 From: straubtyler Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Pregnant Fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6514 From: Aranel Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6515 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6516 From: shortlid Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6517 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 471
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6518 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 11/6/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6519 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6520 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/27/2004
Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6521 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6522 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6523 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6524 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6525 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6526 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6527 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6528 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6529 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6530 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6531 From: Ben OLDS Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: yellow labs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6532 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6533 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6534 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6535 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6536 From: helen572 Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: What do blue lobsters eat?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6537 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6538 From: shortlid Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6539 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Treating injured Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6540 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Digest Number 472 - AQUARIUM CAPACITY
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6541 From: helen572 Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6542 From: red-eye Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6543 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6544 From: videomandlw2003 Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: pond building video
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6545 From: Larry Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Aquarium Straita
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6546 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6547 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6548 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6549 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6550 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6551 From: aximiliguru Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Straita
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6552 From: aximiliguru Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Just compliments about Tire track eels
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6553 From: straubtyler Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6554 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Digest Number 473 - WAS NEED GOLDFISH ADVICE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6555 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6556 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/28/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6557 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6558 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6559 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6560 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: R/O Units
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6561 From: Michelle Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6562 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6563 From: paul helms Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6564 From: paul helms Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6565 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6566 From: paul helms Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6567 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6568 From: straubtyler Date: 10/29/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6569 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6570 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6571 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: arowanda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6572 From: Julie Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6573 From: Julie Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: was Need some goldfish advise ?? on peas...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6574 From: straubtyler Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: was Need some goldfish advise ?? on peas...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6575 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6576 From: paul helms Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6577 From: Robb Date: 10/30/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6578 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6579 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6580 From: straubtyler Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6581 From: straubtyler Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6582 From: paul helms Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6583 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6584 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: nitrates HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6585 From: Patrick N. Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6586 From: Patrick N. Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6587 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6588 From: paul helms Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6589 From: paul helms Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6590 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6591 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6592 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6593 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6594 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6595 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6596 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6597 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!! & Nitrates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6598 From: Faithe Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6599 From: Ashley Capps Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: New & Question Setting Up Angels
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6600 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6601 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomato...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6602 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6603 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6604 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!! & Nitrates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6605 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6606 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6607 From: Shannon Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6608 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6609 From: Faithe Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomato...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6610 From: eric douglas Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6611 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6612 From: eric douglas Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6613 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6614 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 11/5/2004, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6615 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/1/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neo...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6616 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6617 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6618 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6619 From: Faithe Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: for Eric Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6620 From: Faithe Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: for Eric Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6621 From: Faithe Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: for Amalathea Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? mayb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6622 From: paul helms Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6623 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6624 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6625 From: eric douglas Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: for Eric Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6626 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6627 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6628 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: New fish any suggestions??
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6629 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Picture sucks!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6630 From: Elyse Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6631 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6632 From: Ashley Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: (white worm problem)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6633 From: Ashley Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6634 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6635 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6636 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: he's some kind of cichlid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6637 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Ummmmm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6638 From: Allisa Chilton Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Live plants-Pet Solutions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6639 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6640 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6641 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6642 From: Captain Kidd Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6643 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6644 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6645 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6646 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Ummmmm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6647 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6648 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6649 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6650 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6651 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6652 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Live plants-online
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6653 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6654 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: A little better pics uploaded
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6655 From: Christina Chapman Date: 11/2/2004
Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6656 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6657 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6658 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6659 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6660 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6661 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6662 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6663 From: Ashley Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6664 From: Ashley Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: A little better pics uploaded
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6665 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6666 From: John Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Whisper Filter Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6667 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6668 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6669 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6670 From: shortlid Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Whisper Filter Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6671 From: Nimish Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6672 From: bryants4god Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6673 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6674 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6675 From: Elyse Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6676 From: Elyse Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Whisper Filter Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6677 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6678 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6679 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6680 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: The fish I couldn't identify is a flower horn...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6681 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/3/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 11/6/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6682 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6683 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6684 From: XanGo Philippines Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Hi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6685 From: jim Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Whisper Filter Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6686 From: Elyse Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6687 From: bryants4god Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6688 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6689 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6690 From: julie_hash Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6691 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6692 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Molly w/ich and general snail questions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6693 From: julie_hash Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6694 From: paul helms Date: 11/4/2004
Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6695 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6696 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Molly w/ich and general snail questions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6697 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: new pictures
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6698 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6699 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6700 From: bryants4god Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Molly w/ich and general snail questions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6701 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: RIP Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6702 From: bryants4god Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6703 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6704 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6705 From: shortlid Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6706 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6707 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6708 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6709 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Fwd: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6710 From: shortlid Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6711 From: Audrey Archer Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Endler's
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6712 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Fwd: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6713 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6714 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6715 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: RIP Methuselah
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6716 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6717 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 11/5/2004
Subject: Re: Fwd: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6718 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6719 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6720 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6721 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6722 From: Rusty Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6723 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots - Species ID
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6724 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6725 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots - Species ID
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6726 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6727 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Well, that's more like it?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6728 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6729 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6730 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6731 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6732 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6733 From: Paco! Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6734 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6735 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6736 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6737 From: wjcoldman Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: CO2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6738 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6739 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6740 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: New & Question Setting Up Angels
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6741 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Hi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6742 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Hi
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6743 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Endler's
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6744 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: update on my aquarium!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6745 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6746 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6747 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6748 From: harry perry Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6749 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6750 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6751 From: harry perry Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6752 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6753 From: Paco! Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6754 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6755 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6756 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6757 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6758 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6759 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6760 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6761 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6762 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6763 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: CO2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6764 From: bryants4god Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6765 From: harry perry Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: selective breeding/Your list
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6766 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: selective breeding/Your list
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6767 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6768 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6769 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6770 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: early ag and fish breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6771 From: Dawana Branch Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Walter & CO2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6772 From: Dawana Branch Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Apology about truncating (or lack thereof) & RE: Walter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6773 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6774 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
Subject: Re: selective breeding/Your list
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6775 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6776 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6777 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6778 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6779 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6780 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6781 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: early ag and fish breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6782 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: early ag and fish breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6783 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breed...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6784 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6785 From: Audrey Archer Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Endlers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6786 From: paul helms Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6787 From: astyanax00000 Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Freshwater Plant Lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6788 From: paul helms Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Plant Lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6789 From: aaoo881 Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Too much Lighting?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6790 From: astyanax00000 Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Plant Lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6791 From: Paco! Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: PH Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6792 From: red-eye Date: 11/8/2004
Subject: Re: Too much Lighting?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6793 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/9/2004
Subject: Help with quiz on the Radio!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6794 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/9/2004
Subject: Marineland Light Timer
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6795 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/9/2004
Subject: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6796 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/9/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6797 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/9/2004
Subject: Re: Marineland Light Timer
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6798 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6799 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6800 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6801 From: Ashley Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6802 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6803 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6804 From: Faithe Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6805 From: Faithe Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6806 From: straubtyler Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6807 From: astyanax00000 Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6808 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6809 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Piranha
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6810 From: Aranel Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Sponges?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6811 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6812 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Sponges?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6813 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Sponges?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6814 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6815 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Sponges?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6816 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Piranha
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6817 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6818 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6819 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6820 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6821 From: traceyhanson Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Is it Fin Rot?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6822 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6823 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6824 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6825 From: traceyhanson Date: 11/10/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6826 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6827 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6828 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6829 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6830 From: Ashley Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6831 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6832 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6833 From: bryants4god Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6834 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6835 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6836 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6837 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Angelfish Problem - puffy face
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6838 From: red-eye Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Formula
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6839 From: red-eye Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Freshwater Plant Lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6840 From: paul helms Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Angelfish Problem - puffy face
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6841 From: paul helms Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6842 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Piranha
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6843 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6844 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6845 From: paul helms Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6846 From: Nancy A. Hanne Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: guppy pectoral fin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6847 From: shailendra Indulkar Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Cleaning Tank / System
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6848 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6849 From: traceyhanson Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6850 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6851 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6852 From: paul helms Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6853 From: paul helms Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6854 From: worship_hedvvwig Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6855 From: Aranel Date: 11/12/2004
Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6856 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6857 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6858 From: harry perry Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6859 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6860 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6861 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6862 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6863 From: harry perry Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question./To red eye.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6864 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6865 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6866 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6867 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: off listRe: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] A turtle question./To
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6868 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6869 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6870 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6871 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6872 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: off listRe: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6873 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6874 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6875 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6876 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Lighter Note: Got My Angelfish Today
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6877 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6878 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6879 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6880 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: Lighter Note: Got My Angelfish Today
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6881 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6882 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6883 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: A turtle question.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6884 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6885 From: Steve Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Guide to South American Cichlidae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6886 From: Aranel Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6887 From: Larry Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Cichlid to add
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6888 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6889 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6890 From: Ashley Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6891 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6892 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty--Another Take
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6893 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Digest Number 495
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6894 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 495
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6895 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 495
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6896 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6897 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6898 From: Robb Rouse Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6899 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6900 From: Ashley Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6901 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6902 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6903 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6904 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Cichlid to add
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6905 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6906 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6907 From: Julie Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6908 From: paul helms Date: 11/14/2004
Subject: Re: Cichlid to add
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6909 From: Elyse Date: 11/15/2004
Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6910 From: Ashley Date: 11/15/2004
Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6911 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/15/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6912 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/15/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6913 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/15/2004
Subject: frozen foods for fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6914 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/15/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6915 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6916 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6917 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: help with ID "plant ball?"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6918 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: Re: help with ID "plant ball?"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6919 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: Re: help with ID "plant ball?"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6920 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6921 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/16/2004
Subject: Bay Area Killifish Association (BAKA) , 11/30/2004, 7:00 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6922 From: shailendra Indulkar Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: shrimps & sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6923 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Finally rid of those white thread squiggly worms
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6924 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Angelfish Problem - puffy face
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6925 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Tyler Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6926 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6927 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6928 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6929 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Nim Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6930 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6931 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Paul Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6932 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6933 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6934 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6935 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6936 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6937 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FRE...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6938 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Nim Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6939 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6940 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: for Ray re: introducing loaches into tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6941 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6942 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6943 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6944 From: paul helms Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6945 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6946 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6947 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: totally easier solution for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FRE.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6948 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6949 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6950 From: paul helms Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6951 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/17/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6952 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6953 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6954 From: paul helms Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6955 From: paul helms Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6956 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6957 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: totally easier solution for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FRE.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6958 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6959 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: for Paul Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6960 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: for Ray Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6961 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: for Shannon RE: zebra botia for snail control
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6962 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: totally easier solution for Dave Re: N...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6963 From: Christina Chapman Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: snail free plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6964 From: Ashley Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6965 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6966 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: for Shannon RE: zebra botia for snail co...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6967 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6968 From: dmichaelschmidt1967 Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Very, very old fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6969 From: paul helms Date: 11/18/2004
Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6970 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Very, very old fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6971 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: totally easier solution for Dave Re: N...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6972 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: My morning surprise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6973 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: My morning surprise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6974 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: totally easier solution for Dave Re: N...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6975 From: bryants4god Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: My morning surprise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6976 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Very, very old fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6977 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6978 From: rojeriko Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6979 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6980 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: My morning surprise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6981 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6982 From: bryants4god Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: My morning surprise
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6983 From: Ashley Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: My Snails Are Here!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6984 From: Donnie Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6985 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6986 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6987 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6988 From: paul helms Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6989 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6990 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 11/19/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6991 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/20/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 12/3/2004, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6992 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 11/20/2004
Subject: Hi - new to group...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6993 From: Tri mac Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Ready for PICK UP! A glass 240, stand, 60gal. vat, glass lid, and
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6994 From: eshoemate@knology.net Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6995 From: bob Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: 55 and 29 GALLON TANKS FOR SALE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6996 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6997 From: lois Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6998 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 6999 From: paul helms Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7000 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7001 From: lois Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7002 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/22/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7003 From: lois Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7004 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7005 From: daniel_roachus Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Small fish question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7006 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7007 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: for Ashley Re: My Snails Are Here!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7008 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: for Michael Re: Very, very old fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7009 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: for Tim Re: Hi - new to group...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7010 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7011 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7012 From: Ashley Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: for Ashley Re: My Snails Are Here!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7013 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: for Tim Re: Hi - new to group...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7014 From: Brad Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7015 From: eshoemate@knology.net Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7016 From: eshoemate@knology.net Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7017 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7018 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7019 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7020 From: paul helms Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7021 From: paul helms Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7022 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Hi - new to group...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7023 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7024 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Ray Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7025 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Hi - new to group...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7026 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7027 From: bellbott0m Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Help!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7028 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7029 From: Steve Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7030 From: Steve Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7031 From: Julie Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7032 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7033 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7034 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
Subject: Re: Help!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7035 From: ranchugirl Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Big goldfish show in January
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7036 From: bellbott0m Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7037 From: paul helms Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Re: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7038 From: paul helms Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Re: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7039 From: Brad Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7040 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 12/4/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7041 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7042 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/24/2004
Subject: Aquatic salamanders
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7043 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/25/2004
Subject: Bay Area Killifish Association (BAKA) , 11/30/2004, 7:00 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7044 From: Faithe Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7045 From: Faithe Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: for Patrick Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7046 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7047 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7048 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7049 From: EDITHAN1@AOL.COM Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms areBACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7050 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms areBACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7051 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: for Patrick Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7052 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7053 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7054 From: Barbara Linden Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7055 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7056 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Those White Squiggly Worms areBACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7057 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7058 From: dawnmvo Date: 11/26/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7059 From: ben olds Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7060 From: paul helms Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7061 From: paul helms Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7062 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7063 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7064 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7065 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7066 From: paul helms Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7067 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7068 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7069 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7070 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7071 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Plants to grow on Driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7072 From: Elyse Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: Plants to grow on Driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7073 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7074 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7075 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7076 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Digest Number 511 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7077 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/27/2004
Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7078 From: paul helms Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 511 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7079 From: tedrups Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7080 From: secretlaw Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7081 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7082 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: Plants to grow on Driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7083 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7084 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Digest Number 512 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7085 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 512 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7086 From: paul helms Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: Digest Number 512 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7087 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7088 From: P & D Denny Date: 11/28/2004
Subject: Re: New to Fishkeeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7089 From: paul helms Date: 11/29/2004
Subject: Re: New to Fishkeeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7090 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/29/2004
Subject: Re: New to Fishkeeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7091 From: Audrey Archer Date: 11/29/2004
Subject: Re: Plants to grow on driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7092 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/29/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 12/3/2004, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7093 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/29/2004
Subject: Re: Plants to grow on driftwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7094 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7095 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: new tank question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7096 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7097 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: new tank question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7098 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7099 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7100 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7101 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7102 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7103 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7104 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7105 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7106 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7107 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7108 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/1/2004
Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7109 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 12/1/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 12/4/2004, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7110 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7111 From: paul helms Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7112 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7113 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7114 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7115 From: Faithe Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: for Paul Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7116 From: Faithe Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: for Ray Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7117 From: Larry Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7118 From: paul helms Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7119 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: fish and other foods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7120 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7121 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7122 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7123 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/3/2004
Subject: Re: for Ray Re: Those White Squiggly Worms a...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7124 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: fish and other foods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7125 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7126 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7127 From: Christina Chapman Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: DP's in community tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7128 From: robdar4609 Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Small White Eggs on Plant?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7129 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Small White Eggs on Plant?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7130 From: paul helms Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: fish and other foods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7131 From: Chad Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Compatable fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7132 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Compatable fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7133 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Small White Eggs on Plant?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7134 From: Allisa Chilton Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7135 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7136 From: Faithe Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7137 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Bought new friends today! =:o)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7138 From: Steve Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7139 From: paul helms Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7140 From: shillingcat1@juno.com Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7141 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7142 From: paul helms Date: 12/4/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7143 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7144 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7145 From: shillingcat1@juno.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7146 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7147 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7148 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7149 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7150 From: Faithe Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7151 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7152 From: ron44852000 Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Snails in planted aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7153 From: whitecru5 Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7154 From: whitecru5 Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7155 From: whitecru5 Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7156 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Snails in planted aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7157 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: buying fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7158 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: answer then my own question about snails.... Snails in planted aqua
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7159 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7160 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7161 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails.... Snails in planted
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7162 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7163 From: Steve Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7164 From: Steve Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7165 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7166 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7167 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7168 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7169 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7170 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7171 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7172 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7173 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7174 From: Steve Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7175 From: Audrey Archer Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7176 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7177 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Base Ball size snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7178 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7179 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7180 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7181 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7182 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7183 From: Julie Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7184 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7185 From: joequality1980 Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Snails in planted aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7186 From: Faithe Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7187 From: Benedick Mark N. Chan Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Aquarium w/o aeration
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7188 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7189 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7190 From: Larry Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7191 From: Steve Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7192 From: Steve Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7193 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7194 From: harry perry Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration/To Ben
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7195 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7196 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7197 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7198 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: New fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7199 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7200 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7201 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7202 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7203 From: Steve Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7204 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7205 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7206 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7207 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7208 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: New fish!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7209 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7210 From: Audrey Archer Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: blue-green water, Kosher salt
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7211 From: videomandlw2003 Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: pond building video
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7212 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Guppies, babies and tank cleaning
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7213 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Wardley foods
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7214 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7215 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Guppies, babies and tank cleaning
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7216 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Guppies, babies and tank cleaning
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7217 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7218 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: look it up before you correct people
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7219 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: look it up before you correct people
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7220 From: Steve Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: look it up before you correct people
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7221 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: look it up before you correct people
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7222 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/7/2004
Subject: Re: general announcement
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7223 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7224 From: Steve Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: Re: look it up before you correct people
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7225 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: Filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7226 From: Faithe Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7227 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7228 From: Faithe Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7229 From: Brad Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7230 From: paul helms Date: 12/8/2004
Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7231 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/9/2004
Subject: bristlenose with a will to live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7232 From: paul helms Date: 12/9/2004
Subject: Re: bristlenose with a will to live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7233 From: Steve Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Axelrod pleads guilty to tax fraud
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7234 From: StarWolf Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: False Siamese Algae Eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7235 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re: False Siamese Algae Eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7236 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re: bristlenose with a will to live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7237 From: Elyse Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re: bristlenose with a will to live
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7238 From: paul helms Date: 12/10/2004
Subject: Re: False Siamese Algae Eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7239 From: Steve Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: More on Axelrod's Plea
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7240 From: paul helms Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7241 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re: where's the posts?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7242 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7243 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7244 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7245 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7246 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7247 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Re: bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7248 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/12/2004
Subject: Betta
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7249 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/13/2004
Subject: So when will the name change?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7250 From: paul helms Date: 12/13/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7251 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/13/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7252 From: paul helms Date: 12/13/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7253 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: Feeding the guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7254 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7255 From: paul helms Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7256 From: Lyndsay Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: Floating Algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7257 From: paul helms Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7258 From: Aaron Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: Re: So when will the name change?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7259 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/14/2004
Subject: FYI - LANCASTER, PA
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7260 From: John Hawley Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Koi Club of the Air Streaming Radio Show Guest Andrew Goodwin
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7261 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7262 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Help!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7263 From: alglea@aol.com Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7264 From: tedrups Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7265 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7266 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7267 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: home again and more issues.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7268 From: tedrups Date: 12/15/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7269 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: Help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7270 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7271 From: tonycllr Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: vanishing fish !!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7272 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7273 From: Elyse Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7274 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Stressed endler
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7275 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7276 From: Steve Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7277 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7278 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7279 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7280 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7281 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7282 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7283 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/16/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7284 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7285 From: Aranel Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: cory cat eggs?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7286 From: Tony Collier Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7287 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7288 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7289 From: joequality1980 Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7290 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7291 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: VANISHING FISH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7292 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Digest Number 531 - VANISHING FISH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7293 From: arch1574 Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: stressed Endler female
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7294 From: arch1574 Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7295 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7296 From: Tony Collier Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7297 From: Matt Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Any Experience with Aquael
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7298 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7299 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7300 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7301 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7302 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7303 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7304 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: what is a PACO.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7305 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7306 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7307 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7308 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7309 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7310 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: SOMETHING DIFFERENT
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7311 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7312 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7313 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7314 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7315 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7316 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7317 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7318 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7319 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7320 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7321 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7322 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7323 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7324 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7325 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7326 From: Lyndsay Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: 15 litre
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7327 From: Jeff Schultz Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7328 From: Steve Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7329 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7330 From: julie_hash Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: pacu
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7331 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7332 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7333 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7334 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7335 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7336 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7337 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7338 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/17/2004
Subject: water change on my beta
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7339 From: straubtyler Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7340 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: INCOMPATIBLE FISHES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7341 From: paul helms Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7342 From: paul helms Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7343 From: paul helms Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7344 From: alglea@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7345 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7346 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7347 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7348 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: stressed Endler female
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7349 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7350 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: guppy question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7351 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7352 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7353 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7354 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7355 From: Steve Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7356 From: Colleen and Theresa Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7357 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7358 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7359 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7360 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7361 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7362 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7363 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7364 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7365 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7366 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7367 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7368 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: my baby got a new home
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7369 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7370 From: Chris Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7371 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7372 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7373 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7374 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7375 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7376 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7377 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7378 From: Sally and Paul Graham Date: 12/19/2004
Subject: Driftwood (Australia)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7379 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7380 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7381 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7382 From: Chris Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7383 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7384 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7385 From: Chris Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7386 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: INCOMPATIBLE FISHES**HELP***
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7387 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Filter Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7388 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7389 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7390 From: Aaron Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: green hair algae?s
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7391 From: Aaron Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: pH too low?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7392 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7393 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7394 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7395 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7396 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7397 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/21/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7398 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/21/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7399 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/21/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7400 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/21/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7401 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/21/2004
Subject: female bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7402 From: paul helms Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7403 From: Aaron Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Re: [FTFA] green hair algae?s
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7404 From: Aaron Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7405 From: Aaron Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Neon / Cardinal Tetras
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7406 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7407 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7408 From: paul helms Date: 12/22/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7410 From: helen572 Date: 12/24/2004
Subject: Help! My blue crayfish has eggs - now what?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7411 From: Ken Date: 12/24/2004
Subject: First Time Here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7412 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/24/2004
Subject: Re: Help! My blue crayfish has eggs - now what?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7413 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 12/25/2004
Subject: Re: Help! My blue crayfish has eggs - now what?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7414 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 12/25/2004
Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 1/7/2005, 7:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7415 From: paul helms Date: 12/25/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7416 From: dvgorelov Date: 12/25/2004
Subject: Just starting new 29g tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7417 From: paul helms Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7418 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: Just starting new 29g tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7419 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [UniQuaria] Just starting new 29g tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7420 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: How long does it take to have fry from the 1st to the last
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7421 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: Just starting new 29g tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7422 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: signature/Patrick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7423 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7424 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7425 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7426 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7427 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7428 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7429 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7430 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7431 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7432 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: CAE/oto
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7433 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7434 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7435 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7436 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7437 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: CAE/oto
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7438 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7439 From: freedombell2002 Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: How long does it take to have fry from the 1st to the last
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7440 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7441 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7442 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7443 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7444 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7445 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7446 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7447 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7448 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7449 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7450 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7451 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7452 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7453 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: How long does it take to have fry from the 1st to the last
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7454 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7455 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7456 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7457 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7458 From: Steve Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7459 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7460 From: dvgorelov Date: 12/27/2004
Subject: Re: Just starting new 29g tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7461 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7462 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7463 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7464 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7465 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7466 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7467 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7468 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7469 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7470 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7471 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7472 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7473 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7474 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7475 From: Carly Smith Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: CAE's
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7476 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7477 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7478 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7479 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7480 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7481 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7482 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7483 From: Scott Tucker Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Gold Barbs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7484 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7485 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7486 From: lonelybbwmi2000 Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: brown algae
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7487 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7488 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7489 From: lois Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7490 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7491 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7492 From: brakemanpr Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Looking for a Aquarium Log
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7493 From: Carly Smith Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7494 From: lois Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7495 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: joke
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7496 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 1/1/2005, 6:30 pm
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7497 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: help catching CAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7498 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: britstlenose or otto...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7499 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7500 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7501 From: Larry Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: restocking
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7502 From: jordanb_33 Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Looking for Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7503 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7504 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7505 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7506 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7507 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7508 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7509 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7510 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7511 From: lois Date: 12/29/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7512 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7513 From: Steve Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7514 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: oto care
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7515 From: vreugde@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: CAE pains
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7516 From: Rob Robinson Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: FLUVAL PLUS
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7517 From: joequality1980 Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: non-upside-down cory
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7518 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7519 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7520 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7521 From: lois Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7522 From: Suzanne Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Happy Holidays! Can anyone help this newbie with breeding?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7523 From: Angela Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Very New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7524 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7525 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7526 From: Iksnip@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Beginning Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7527 From: Ron Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: Happy Holidays! Can anyone help this newbie with breeding?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7528 From: Audrey Archer Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Log
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7529 From: vreugde@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7530 From: brakemanpr Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: Aquarium Log
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7531 From: paul helms Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7532 From: paul helms Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7533 From: paul helms Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7534 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7535 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
Subject: what happened to me while trying to catch the CAE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7536 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7537 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7538 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7539 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7540 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7541 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7542 From: angelasjenkins@comcast.net Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7543 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7544 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7545 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7546 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7547 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7548 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7549 From: harryfisherman Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: A new years resolution???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7550 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7551 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7552 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7553 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7554 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7555 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7556 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7557 From: lois Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7558 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7559 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7560 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7561 From: alglea@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7562 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7563 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Digest number 549 - DELETE NEW NAME
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7564 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7565 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7566 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7567 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7568 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7569 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7570 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7571 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 7572 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
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Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic



Group: AquaticLife Message: 3860 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: How big do Clown Pleco get?/Erin
 
Harry

Witchywmn42@... wrote:
I was looking at Clown Plecostamus the other day when we were at Petsmart, and silly me didn't jot down how big their adult size was.

I'm debating whether we should get one for our 15 gallon. But I want to know how big they get, first. They seemed shorter but rounder than the "Common Plecostamus" ... and I can't seem to find anything online that says how big these guys get.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Erin
CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

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Group: AquaticLife Message: 3861 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: To Erin: A thought on the pleco.
I had one of the species for quite a few years. It only was active at night. It was an efficient algae eater. Most folks love cory cats once they have them. There are many different kinds available. They are "cute" they stay small, they travel in schools during the daylight hours. They help clean the bottom but are not algae eaters. If you have an algae problem, the Flying Fox comes to mind and the true SAE. Not the Chinese algae eater, it doesn't eat much algae. Algae is easy to deal with once you have the right information.
 
Harry


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Group: AquaticLife Message: 3862 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Argh FUNGUS
 
 
    Well it's official my house has a fungal infection,  It's in my plant pots.  It's on the surface of all of my tanks.  (2 fish 1 turtle)  my wife is getting allergic reactions to it.   What can I do?  I have an ionizing air filter, but I can't reallt get rid of it all.  It's everywhere.  I have tried lowering the temperature in the house to 74F  I am hoping the AC drying the place out will help some.  Does anyone else have any ideas. 
 
    Andreas
 
    PS interestingly enough the fish are fine and have no infections
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3863 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Thanks! +need more help
I thank you all for responding to my questions as far as replacing
my filter. I took some time reading the manual for the aquaclear on
the makers website also.

I went to Petsmart to purchase items that needed to be replaced for
it and when talking to the top fish guy he explained more to me why
he thinks the bio wheel was better how the water hits all the
cartridges and all that. I tried to counter with what I read from
you all but he still convinced me to get it.

Bio wheel was half of what the aquaclear costs (have that) but when
I considered what I was paying to get the one I have up to par...I
was spending what I would pay for a new bio wheel.

Anyway, I got that...I was told I could just plop in on in (i did
rinse the stuff first). The tank was due for a water change but he
didnt suggest I do that at the same time unless I put a stress coat
in. So, what we did is probably less than 10% water change getting
some of the large junk (left over wardley food the fish wouldnt eat)
out, and it also allowed me to set up the new one better lowering
the water level a little.

I also added a few more live plants. And a new air pump/set up along
the back bottom. Tested water not long after and it was still fine.

I tested again today although the fish seem pretty happy.

Well this is the first time the levels were really off (besides the
one bad test kit I had when I lowed the levels bad and it didnt need
it)....

I have this mardel 5 in 1 test strip kit.
Nitrate (NO3) safe
Nitrite (NO2) about 3.0 stress
ppm total hardness about 120 moderate
ppm total alkalnity/buffering capacity was way up there (add ph
minus range)
pH way up there almost pink guess over 8.4 add phMinus range if not
off the charts.


What did I do??? and what to do now? how much time do I have to
correct it.

Thanks, I really appreciate you all with every question I have had.
You really have helped me a lot, not there yet but I am getting much
better, with very little loss in the tank. Thanks for dealing with
me :)

ps. this is a 55 gallon.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3864 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Setting my my 55 Gal
Hello.  I'm in the process of setting up my 55 gallon tank and had a few questions.  It turns out most of my equimpment is no longer working.  Well this tank it 10 years old and the tank it self has held water with no leeks for 3 days now.  Well I want to get the tank ready for fish.
 
I have a question about Heaters as well as Powerheads.
 
Heaters.  I'm guessing the 5 watts er gallon is correct so I need 275 watts of heating.  Now should I just get a 300/350 watt heater or would it be better to get 2 150/200 watts?  If I get 2 should I place them at the back of the tank or on the side?
 
Powerheads.  For 55 gallons how much water output should I be using? Would 170 GPH be enough with a powerhead on each end of the UGF?
 
Thanks.
 
Robb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3865 From: secretlaw Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
You don't need that big of a heater. I have a 140 gallon fish tank,
and I am using two 200w heaters. As a matter of fact, I could just
use one 200w heater. The reason I am using two because I don't want
one heater works too hard, the heater will be on most of the time,
but not with two heaters. Second reason is because if one heater not
working all the sudden, then I have the other one as a back up. For
your 55g tank, I suggest you use 150w or 200w heater is good enough.
It doesn't matter where you put the heater. I usually put them on
the back of the tank. one on each side, or one on one side if you
are using one heater.

Power head. The reason we need a power head is to circulate the
water flow. It depends on what filter system that you are using.
What I am trying to say is, most fish don't like too strong of
current, if your filter system is strong enough, I don't think you
need a power head. But again, it all depends on what kind of filter
that you are using.

Sometimes, I prefer to add a air pump.


--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Rouse"
<robbrouse@c...> wrote:
> Hello. I'm in the process of setting up my 55 gallon tank and had
a few questions. It turns out most of my equimpment is no longer
working. Well this tank it 10 years old and the tank it self has
held water with no leeks for 3 days now. Well I want to get the
tank ready for fish.
>
> I have a question about Heaters as well as Powerheads.
>
> Heaters. I'm guessing the 5 watts er gallon is correct so I need
275 watts of heating. Now should I just get a 300/350 watt heater
or would it be better to get 2 150/200 watts? If I get 2 should I
place them at the back of the tank or on the side?
>
> Powerheads. For 55 gallons how much water output should I be
using? Would 170 GPH be enough with a powerhead on each end of the
UGF?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Robb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3866 From: secretlaw Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Fish for Sale?
Does anyone out there have some african Peacocks for sale? Please
reply with the pirce.

thanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 3867 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Thanks! +need more help

H'lo,

   Don't know what your problem is overall, but the way you describe removing the "..large Wardley Fish food junk", sounds like you allow much too much uneaten-food to remain in your tank, and that's probably the reason your Nitrite reading is so high. But if you have a high PH after all that, I can't anything but suspect from what little I remember, that your water is so hard that decaying waste is'nt raising your PH, or you have'nt been letting uneaten-food accumulate long-enough to lower the PH.

                    jOE p

-------------- Original message --------------

> I thank you all for responding to my questions as far as replacing
> my filter. I took some time reading the manual for the aquaclear on
> the makers website also.
>
> I went to Petsmart to purchase items that needed to be replaced for
> it and when talking to the top fish guy he explained more to me why
> he thinks the bio wheel was better how the water hits all the
> cartridges and all that. I tried to counter with what I read from
> you all but he still convinced me to get it.
>
> Bio wheel was half of what the aquaclear costs (have that) but when
> I considered what I was paying to get the one I have up to par...I
> was spending what I would pay for a new bio wheel.
>
> Anyway, I got that...I was told I could just plop in on in (i did
> rinse the stuff first). The tank was due for a water change but he
> didnt suggest I do that at the same time unless I put a stress coat
> in. So, what we did is probably less than 10% water change getting
> some of the large junk (left over wardley food the fish wouldnt eat)
> out, and it also allowed me to set up the new one better lowering
> the water level a little.
>
> I also added a few more live plants. And a new air pump/set up along
> the back bottom. Tested water not long after and it was still fine.
>
> I tested again today although the fish seem pretty happy.
>
> Well this is the first time the levels were really off (besides the
> one bad test kit I had when I lowed the levels bad and it didnt need
> it)....
>
> I have this mardel 5 in 1 test strip kit.
> Nitrate (NO3) safe
> Nitrite (NO2) about 3.0 stress
> ppm total hardness about 120 moderate
> ppm total alkalnity/buffering capacity was way up there (add ph
> minus range)
> pH way up there almost pink guess over 8.4 add phMinus range if not
> off the charts.
>
>
> What did I do??? and what to do now? how much time do I have to
> correct it.
>
> Thanks, I really appreciate you all with every question I have had.
> You really have helped me a lot, not there yet but I am getting much
> better, with very little loss in the tank. Thanks for dealing with
> me :)
>
> ps. this is a 55 gallon.
>
>
>
>
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Group: AquaticLife Message: 3868 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal

H'lo,

   I've read that you should cause a turnover of 5 or 6 times the aquarium-water-volume-per-hour. The heaters and pumps/filter-outflow/intakes should be placed so the water is heated and distributed so the temperature is mixed/distributed evenly so you have no hot/cold spots. (excluding the immediate area of the heater)

     I've always placed my heaters close to my power-heads and/or filter intakes.

                    Joe P

                      Joe P

-------------- Original message --------------
Hello. I'm in the process of setting up my 55 gallon tank and had a few questions. It turns out most of my equimpment is no longer working. Well this tank it 10 years old and the tank it self has held water with no leeks for 3 days now. Well I want to get the tank ready for fish.
I have a question about Heaters as well as Powerheads.
Heaters. I'm guessing the 5 watts er gallon is correct so I need 275 watts of heating. Now should I just get a 300/350 watt heater or would it be better to get 2 150/200 watts? If I get 2 should I place them at the back of the tank or on the side?
Powerheads. For 55 gallons how much water output should I be using? Would 170 GPH be enough with a powerhead on each end of the UGF?
Thanks.
Robb






Group: AquaticLife Message: 3869 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
With regard to the heaters, get 2 100-150 watt heaters. This is for the
protection of your fishes. While heaters are more reliable today, there is
still the chance that a heater may stick in the "on" state, and you can come
home to a bouillabaisse in your tank. If you have two heaters, the chance of
this happening is dramatically reduced. If one gets stuck "on" the other
will not come on, and there is not enough wattage to raise the temperature
of the tank to a dangerous level very quickly. On the other hand, should a
heater malfunction and never heat, the water will be kept at an acceptable
level (unless in a really cold area) until the malfunctioning heater can be
replaced.

As for the powerheads, 170 gph should be sufficient. However, you may wish
to rethink your filtering methods. I've used undergravel filtration for
years and never had a problem with it. However, most of those tanks did not
include live plants or much in the way of aquascaping. Other's experiences
have varied, mostly, I suspect, on the setup of their tanks and/or the kind
of biological load the UGF's were asked to handle.

\\Steve//

-----Original Message-----
From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 1:04 PM
To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Setting my my 55 Gal


Hello. I'm in the process of setting up my 55 gallon tank and had a few
questions. It turns out most of my equimpment is no longer working. Well
this tank it 10 years old and the tank it self has held water with no leeks
for 3 days now. Well I want to get the tank ready for fish.

I have a question about Heaters as well as Powerheads.

Heaters. I'm guessing the 5 watts er gallon is correct so I need 275 watts
of heating. Now should I just get a 300/350 watt heater or would it be
better to get 2 150/200 watts? If I get 2 should I place them at the back
of the tank or on the side?

Powerheads. For 55 gallons how much water output should I be using? Would
170 GPH be enough with a powerhead on each end of the UGF?

Thanks.

Robb






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Group: AquaticLife Message: 3870 From: bryants4god Date: 8/1/2004
Subject: Re: Algae / Snails/Mollie headstands
Attachments :
    The eggs you described in your other post make me think this is the type of snail you have, I would image they come in different colors.  I got one tank infected with them from some plants I purchased at petco.  None of my other tanks have them.  They reproduce like crazy, literally one day you will see 4 or 5 and a few days later you will see a hundred.  I do not like them, they also eat my plants.
    If you can reach the eggs I would remove them, if you can't get to them easily with your hand use a turkey baster or something.  I can't picture what a "breeder box" looks like.
     
    The other snail I posted (ramshorn) lays flat patches of eggs on hard surfaces in the tank, they are flat and dry looking, that's why I am leaning towards the other species in your tank.
     
    You would probably have better luck using cucumber instead of lettuce.  You can weight it down with a plant weight or do I what I do and stick a chopstick or something similar through it and wedge it in.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Witchywmn42@aol.com [mailto:Witchywmn42@aol.com]
    Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 10:00 PM
    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Algae / Snails/Mollie headstands

    In a message dated 7/31/2004 4:21:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bryants4god@earthlink.net writes:

    Here are 2 more with spiral shells and 1 of a grown ramshorn.
     
      


    That one looks closest so far ... kinda hard for me to tell which direction the spiral is going though. My snails shells have the opening on the left side, and even the adults are transparent.
    Erin
    CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

    ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

    my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/



            
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3871 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/1/2004
    Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
    In a message dated 7/31/2004 10:42:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LL314158@... writes:

    I have 5 plecostomus in my koi &goldfish pond ..
    they got  too big, real quick for my 10 gallon aquarium ..


    I know that plecostamus get big. I had one before, which I moved to my mother's pond. (I don't know if he survived after that, he seems to have disappeared.)

    I finally asked the people at Petsmart, and the lady said that the clown plecos get just as big as the common plecos. So I'll probably end up going with something else if I ever get around to it.
    Erin
    CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

    ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

    my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3872 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
    Subject: The Pleco/To Erin and all
    This group is incredible. The original question was the clown pleco. There are at least 20 different plecos available They can go up to 14" depending on the type. The clown only reaches 5". Does anyone here know what they are raising? Does anyone really care?
     
    Harry


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    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3873 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
    Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal
    Attachments :
          I agree with Steve, for longer tanks it is good to have 2 lower wattage heater than one large one.  As for the under gravel filter (ugf), if it works for you, use it. :)  I wouldn't use one, but for years that was the best filter there was and the old guys (I hope I don't offend any of the people who might have been keeping aquariums back in the 1960's-70's) had a lot of success with them.  You probably shouldn't have rooted plants unless you don't mind digging them out, trimming the roots, and replanting them. 
       
      Patrick N.
       
      Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
      -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3874 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
      Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco.
      don't know where this guy gets his info or his
      attitude, but chinese algae eaters do eat algae and
      will clean a tank much faster than an sae, but there
      is a problem with them. once they hit about 3 inches,
      they begin to get aggressive and will fight with other
      fish, as well as will latch onto them when there is
      insufficient algae.


      --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

      > I had one of the species for quite a few years. It
      > only was active at night. It was an efficient algae
      > eater. Most folks love cory cats once they have
      > them. There are many different kinds available. They
      > are "cute" they stay small, they travel in schools
      > during the daylight hours. They help clean the
      > bottom but are not algae eaters. If you have an
      > algae problem, the Flying Fox comes to mind and the
      > true SAE. Not the Chinese algae eater, it doesn't
      > eat much algae. Algae is easy to deal with once you
      > have the right information.
      >
      > Harry
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.




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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3875 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
      Subject: Re: Setting my my 55 Gal/UGF
      They seem to cause more problems then their worth. Live plants don't do well and toxic gas can build up under the filter when it is released all inhabitants will die.
       
      Harry 

      Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
          I agree with Steve, for longer tanks it is good to have 2 lower wattage heater than one large one.  As for the under gravel filter (ugf), if it works for you, use it. :)  I wouldn't use one, but for years that was the best filter there was and the old guys (I hope I don't offend any of the people who might have been keeping aquariums back in the 1960's-70's) had a lot of success with them.  You probably shouldn't have rooted plants unless you don't mind digging them out, trimming the roots, and replanting them. 
       
      Patrick N.
       
      Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
      -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.


              




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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3876 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
      Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco./Paul
      Dear Paul,
       
      I didn't really think I had an "attitude" just a CAE that doesn't do anything. I guess mine is just lazy. As far as putting a true SAE up against a CAE their is no comparison. My info is based on personal experience over the past 20 years and I only post to help people. Have a nice day.
       
      Harry

      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
      don't know where this guy gets his info or his
      attitude, but chinese algae eaters do eat algae and
      will clean a tank much faster than an sae, but there
      is a problem with them.  once they hit about 3 inches,
      they begin to get aggressive and will fight with other
      fish, as well as will latch onto them when there is
      insufficient algae.


      --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

      > I had one of the species for quite a few years. It
      > only was active at night. It was an efficient algae
      > eater. Most folks love cory cats once they have
      > them. There are many different kinds available. They
      > are "cute" they stay small, they travel in schools
      > during the daylight hours. They help clean the
      > bottom but are not algae eaters. If you have an
      > algae problem, the Flying Fox comes to mind and the
      > true SAE. Not the Chinese algae eater, it doesn't
      > eat much algae. Algae is easy to deal with once you
      > have the right information.

      > Harry
      >
      >            
      > ---------------------------------
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.



                 
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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3877 From: Seti Date: 8/1/2004
      Subject: Frozen food question
      I just got some froen cubes for the first time. Do I need to defrost the food before feeding,
      or just throw a frozen cube in the tank?

      ~~Seti
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3878 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
      Subject: CAE vs. SAE
      Attachments :
            I didn't know you could compare a CAE to an SAE.  CAE's are full of false advertising.  They are from Thailand, not China, and they are omnivores, not algae eaters.  SAE's, on the other hand, are supposed to be peaceful, 5 inch algae eaters that eat some algaes that other algae eaters don't touch.  And they really are from Thailand (aka Siam).
         
        Patrick N.
         
        Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
        -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3879 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: Frozen food question/Seti
        I use a worm feeder. A funnel with holes and a suction cup. As the cube melts the food is available to all.
         
        Harry

        Seti <Seti1st@...> wrote:
        I just got some froen cubes for the first time. Do I need to defrost the food before feeding,
        or just throw a frozen cube in the tank?

        ~~Seti



                




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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3880 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
        Thank you Patrick for proving my point.
         
        Harry

        Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
            I didn't know you could compare a CAE to an SAE.  CAE's are full of false advertising.  They are from Thailand, not China, and they are omnivores, not algae eaters.  SAE's, on the other hand, are supposed to be peaceful, 5 inch algae eaters that eat some algaes that other algae eaters don't touch.  And they really are from Thailand (aka Siam).
         
        Patrick N.
         
        Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
        -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.


                




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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3881 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
          they're real hard to see  in a pond..
        you have to watch real close late of an evening to see them..
        they will come  for food at evening but not during the daytime.. at least that's when mine do..
         
        try albino cory cats or an algea eater .. they're good
        too to keep a tank clean .. & don't grow near as fast..
          Linda M.
         
        I have 5 plecostomus in my koi & goldfish pond ..
        they got  too big, real quick for my 10 gallon aquarium ..


        I know that plecostamus get big. I had one before, which I moved to my mother's pond. (I don't know if he survived after that, he seems to have disappeared.)

        I finally asked the people at Petsmart, and the lady said that the clown plecos get just as big as the common plecos. So I'll probably end up going with something else if I ever get around to it.
        Erin
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3882 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
        --- never said they were not omnivores, in fact you
        will notice i said that they will attack and try to
        eat oter fish when they get large if there is not
        algae for them. my point was that they do eat algae,
        quite voraciously, i have put large one in tanks with
        4 green walls and had them clean the next morning.

        rry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

        > Thank you Patrick for proving my point.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
        > I didn't know you could compare a CAE to an SAE.
        > CAE's are full of false advertising. They are from
        > Thailand, not China, and they are omnivores, not
        > algae eaters. SAE's, on the other hand, are
        > supposed to be peaceful, 5 inch algae eaters that
        > eat some algaes that other algae eaters don't touch.
        > And they really are from Thailand (aka Siam).
        >
        > Patrick N.
        >
        > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
        > Nitrogen Cycle:
        > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
        > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5
        > glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
        > tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy,
        > 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one
        > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
        > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
        > keepers!
        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
        > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
        > swords.
        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
        > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
        > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3883 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
        didn't compare...read more closely. onoly stated that
        hey will and do eat algae, and added that they are
        agressive


        --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

        > I didn't know you could compare a CAE to an SAE.
        > CAE's are full of
        > false advertising. They are from Thailand, not
        > China, and they are
        > omnivores, not algae eaters. SAE's, on the other
        > hand, are supposed to be
        > peaceful, 5 inch algae eaters that eat some algaes
        > that other algae eaters
        > don't touch. And they really are from Thailand (aka
        > Siam).
        >
        > Patrick N.
        >
        > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
        > Nitrogen Cycle:
        > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
        > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5
        > glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
        > neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home
        > raised guppy, 4 ottos,
        > 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female
        > betta, and 1 paradise
        > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or
        > inexperienced fish
        > keepers!
        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
        > banana plants, java ferns,
        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
        > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
        > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.




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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3884 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco./Paul
        the attitude was in referece to a later post about
        others not knowing what they are talking about.

        --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

        > Dear Paul,
        >
        > I didn't really think I had an "attitude" just a CAE
        > that doesn't do anything. I guess mine is just lazy.
        > As far as putting a true SAE up against a CAE their
        > is no comparison. My info is based on personal
        > experience over the past 20 years and I only post to
        > help people. Have a nice day.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
        > don't know where this guy gets his info or his
        > attitude, but chinese algae eaters do eat algae and
        > will clean a tank much faster than an sae, but there
        > is a problem with them. once they hit about 3
        > inches,
        > they begin to get aggressive and will fight with
        > other
        > fish, as well as will latch onto them when there is
        > insufficient algae.
        >
        >
        > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I had one of the species for quite a few years. It
        > > only was active at night. It was an efficient
        > algae
        > > eater. Most folks love cory cats once they have
        > > them. There are many different kinds available.
        > They
        > > are "cute" they stay small, they travel in schools
        > > during the daylight hours. They help clean the
        > > bottom but are not algae eaters. If you have an
        > > algae problem, the Flying Fox comes to mind and
        > the
        > > true SAE. Not the Chinese algae eater, it doesn't
        > > eat much algae. Algae is easy to deal with once
        > you
        > > have the right information.
        > >
        > > Harry
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
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        >
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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3885 From: harry perry Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: To Paul again
        If I offended any one I sincerely apologize. We are the creators of a mini biosphere. Learn how to do it right or your critters will suffer.
         
        Harry

        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
        the attitude was in referece to a later post about
        others not knowing what they are talking about.

        --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

        > Dear Paul,

        > I didn't really think I had an "attitude" just a CAE
        > that doesn't do anything. I guess mine is just lazy.
        > As far as putting a true SAE up against a CAE their
        > is no comparison. My info is based on personal
        > experience over the past 20 years and I only post to
        > help people. Have a nice day.

        > Harry
        >
        > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
        > don't know where this guy gets his info or his
        > attitude, but chinese algae eaters do eat algae and
        > will clean a tank much faster than an sae, but there
        > is a problem with them.  once they hit about 3
        > inches,
        > they begin to get aggressive and will fight with
        > other
        > fish, as well as will latch onto them when there is
        > insufficient algae.
        >
        >
        > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I had one of the species for quite a few years. It
        > > only was active at night. It was an efficient
        > algae
        > > eater. Most folks love cory cats once they have
        > > them. There are many different kinds available.
        > They
        > > are "cute" they stay small, they travel in schools
        > > during the daylight hours. They help clean the
        > > bottom but are not algae eaters. If you have an
        > > algae problem, the Flying Fox comes to mind and
        > the
        > > true SAE. Not the Chinese algae eater, it doesn't
        > > eat much algae. Algae is easy to deal with once
        > you
        > > have the right information.
        > > 
        > > Harry
        > >
        > >            
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
        >
        >
        >
        >            
        > __________________________________
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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3886 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
        Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
        Attachments :
              Sorry about that, you are right.  They do eat algae, so technically they are algae eaters.  Mollies are also algae eaters, they cleaned my tank in a few days. :)  I just couldn't put a CAE in my tank because the only ones I ever see are attached to goldfish or gouramis at my lwm (local w-mart).  They don't sell them at my lfs.  I keep ottos.
           
          Patrick N.
           
          Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
          -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
          -------Original Message-------
          never said they were not omnivores, in fact you
          will notice i said that they will attack and try to
          eat oter fish when they get large if there is not
          algae for them.  my point was that they do eat algae,
          quite voraciously, i have put large one in tanks with
          4 green walls and had them clean the next morning.
          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3887 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
          Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
          splash, lethal weapon
          --- Deenerz@... wrote:

          >
          > In a message dated 7/30/2004 10:19:47 PM Pacific
          > Daylight Time,
          > purrfectpals569@... writes:
          >
          > Can you list any shows that you've seen aquariums
          > in, especially
          > > those that played an integral part of the script,
          > i.e. "Duece
          > > Bigelow", etc...
          > >
          > > Have a great weekend,
          > > Aaron
          >
          >
          >
          > Just thought of one, hope I am not repeating.
          >
          > A Fish Called Wanda.
          >
          > I laughed so hard watching that movie, man it had
          > some great scenes.
          > Mike
          >





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          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3888 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
          Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
          star trek the next generation had a round tank i the
          captains ready room, they had one on friends, they
          have one on nip tuck
          --- Witchywmn42@... wrote:

          > In a message dated 7/30/2004 9:04:51 PM Eastern
          > Daylight Time,
          > massagetherapist@... writes:
          >
          > > Can you list any shows that you've seen aquariums
          > in
          >
          > Fiction, or non-fiction?
          >
          > Reason I'm asking, is Monster House had an episode
          > where they did this
          > family's house with shark decor, and they put a
          > pretty big tank in the wall between
          > their livingroom and their son's room, and put bala
          > sharks in it.
          >
          > Someone mentioned that Dr. Flox on Star Trek
          > Enterprise uses Explorer tanks
          > for his little critters, but not sure if that counts
          > what you are asking about.
          > *grin*
          > Erin
          > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
          > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
          > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
          > my LiveJournal
          > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
          >




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          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3889 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 8/1/2004
          Subject: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
          Greetings folks,
           
          I see we are having a lively discussion about algae eaters. My presonal preference has always been to have a pleco.
           
          Currently, I am in the process of establishing to smaller aquariums neither of which are large enough for a pleco (in my opinion). The one is a 20 gallon high in which I intend to have livebearers and tetras. The other little 5 gallon for the family betta. I am looking for suggestions for a good algae eater candidate to add to these tanks about 6 weeks or so from now.
           
          Thanks in advance.
           
          Regards,
          Gary
          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3890 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
          Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
          Attachments :
                My favorite is the otto, ottocin, ottocinclinus, I can't pronounce or spell it, but most people call it an otto.  Small, cheap, non-aggressive, and good at eating algae.  They are active during the day, and remind me of corries. 
             
            Patrick N.
             
            Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
            -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3891 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
            Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions

            H'lo,

                I bought ottos' for 'algae-eating', for a 70 gallon tank. Had 5 or 6, and would'nt depend on fish to completely remove some or most of the algae. They ate algae, but not enough to sparkle the interior, and I was pleased they liked the food. They were delightful, friendly fish.

                       Joe P

            -------------- Original message --------------
            My favorite is the otto, ottocin, ottocinclinus, I can't pronounce or spell it, but most people call it an otto. Small, cheap, non-aggressive, and good at eating algae. They are active during the day, and remind me of corries.
            Patrick N.
            Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
            -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.






            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3892 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/1/2004
            Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
            Don't know if this applies, but in 2010, "The set for Heywood Floyd's house
            (with dolphin pool) was constructed atop the MGM studio "saucer tank" in
            Culver City, California. The dolphins, named Captain Crunch and Lelani, were
            provided by a local aquarium."

            In Akarui mirai, "The large group of jellyfish in the Tokyo River was filmed
            in an aquarium and digitally added to the film."

            "Part of the birth scene at the end of the movie included real footage from
            the birth of K'yosha, an orca born at Vancouver Aquarium to parents Bjossa
            and Finna, both of whom are also seen in the birth footage. (Finna also had
            a bent dorsal fin, allowing him to be used as "Willy".)", from Free Willy 3:
            The Rescue.

            In The Graduate, "The model frogman in the aquarium is toppled over when
            Mrs. Robinson tosses in the keys."

            Soldier, "The secret passage that Dilip Tahil takes Bobby Deol through is
            the famous Sydney underwater aquarium."

            In Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, "The Cetacean Institute is actually the
            Monterey Bay Aquarium in Monterey, California. The Institute's logo also
            belongs to the Aquarium."

            And finally "Shinzon's ship, the Scimitar, resembles a lionfish when
            extending its tines to use its radiation weapon. Picard, for many years, had
            a lionfish in an aquarium in his Enterprise-D ready room.", from Star Trek:
            Nemesis.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
            Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:00 PM
            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Movies & TV shows w/
            Aquariums


            star trek the next generation had a round tank i the
            captains ready room, they had one on friends, they
            have one on nip tuck
            --- Witchywmn42@... wrote:

            > In a message dated 7/30/2004 9:04:51 PM Eastern
            > Daylight Time,
            > massagetherapist@... writes:
            >
            > > Can you list any shows that you've seen aquariums
            > in
            >
            > Fiction, or non-fiction?
            >
            > Reason I'm asking, is Monster House had an episode
            > where they did this
            > family's house with shark decor, and they put a
            > pretty big tank in the wall between
            > their livingroom and their son's room, and put bala
            > sharks in it.
            >
            > Someone mentioned that Dr. Flox on Star Trek
            > Enterprise uses Explorer tanks
            > for his little critters, but not sure if that counts
            > what you are asking about.
            > *grin*
            > Erin
            > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
            > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
            > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
            > my LiveJournal
            > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
            >




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            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3893 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
            Subject: Re: Striped Raphael Catfish
            whatis he housed with? if it is africans, they like to
            rip pieces off of other fish
            --- trikashaivism <Trikashaivism@...> wrote:

            > Hello everybody,
            >
            > I am a brand new member and would like to drawn on
            > your knowledge
            > and experience regarding my striped raphael catfish,
            > also know and a
            > striped catfish or a talking catfish.
            >
            > Being a very secretative and nocturnal fellow, I
            > seldom see him out
            > and about. However today I noticed that both
            > pectoral fins seem to
            > be missing the majority of the fin. What is left is
            > the spiny rim
            > that runs down the outside of the pectoral fins.
            > Besides from this
            > he seems fine and every other fish seems to be
            > without any such
            > problems. I have had him for a good 5 or so years.
            >
            > Could anybody kindly shed some light on what is
            > possibly going on
            > here. Any insight would be appreciated.
            >
            >
            > Thanking you,
            >
            > Neil
            >
            >
            >




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            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3894 From: paul helms Date: 8/1/2004
            Subject: Re: dyed fish
            wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
            they want?
            --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

            > http://www.deathbydyeing.org/home.htm
            >
            >
            >
            http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=72
            >
            >
            >
            >




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            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3895 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
            Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
            Attachments :
              "And finally "Shinzon's ship, the Scimitar, resembles a lionfish when
              extending its tines to use its radiation weapon. Picard, for many years, had a lionfish in an aquarium in his Enterprise-D ready room.", from Star Trek:Nemesis."
               
                  Thanks for mentioning that.  I never even noticed it, but it gives a lot more meaning to that part of the movie, since Shinzon was Picard's clone and Shinzon had a ship that looks like Picard's famous fish.  You have to love those hidden meanings. :)
               
              Others:
              There was also a temporary "aquarium" inside of a Bird of Prey used to hold the whales. 
              There was a show about solving a real murder case.  The murder was done by crushing algae destroyer tablets and giving them to the intended and other victims by putting it in pill bottles.
              The funny videos showed a kid with a new bike drop the bike.  The handle bar went through the glass.
                  It seems like more and more shows and tv commercials are having fish tanks.  Is it because they are using them as props more, or is it just because I never noticed them there before I got a tank?   
               
              Patrick N.
               
              Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
              -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3896 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 8/1/2004
              Subject: Re: Thanks! +need more help
              I dont know myself...stumped. Well the levels were just fine before
              I did all the change with the new bio wheel, and about an hour
              after...every thing was fine and has been fine for month or so.

              That food I got last week, and the fish hated it...spit it right
              back out..never seen anything like that before:)so that was there
              for a week...but the levels were all fine.

              My best guess was from the bio wheel, mini water change, new plants,
              air pump... because it went wild less than a day after I did all
              that...but one would think the levels would be the opposite after
              that?

              Guess I need to read more again...I get all the water stuff but I
              dont seem to retain it for more than a few weeks :) time to study
              again.

              Thank you



              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
              j.pascavage@c... wrote:
              > H'lo,
              > Don't know what your problem is overall, but the way you
              describe removing the "..large Wardley Fish food junk", sounds like
              you allow much too much uneaten-food to remain in your tank, and
              that's probably the reason your Nitrite reading is so high. But if
              you have a high PH after all that, I can't anything but suspect from
              what little I remember, that your water is so hard that decaying
              waste is'nt raising your PH, or you have'nt been letting uneaten-
              food accumulate long-enough to lower the PH.
              > jOE p
              >
              > -------------- Original message --------------
              >
              > > I thank you all for responding to my questions as far as
              replacing
              > > my filter. I took some time reading the manual for the aquaclear
              on
              > > the makers website also.
              > >
              > > I went to Petsmart to purchase items that needed to be replaced
              for
              > > it and when talking to the top fish guy he explained more to me
              why
              > > he thinks the bio wheel was better how the water hits all the
              > > cartridges and all that. I tried to counter with what I read
              from
              > > you all but he still convinced me to get it.
              > >
              > > Bio wheel was half of what the aquaclear costs (have that) but
              when
              > > I considered what I was paying to get the one I have up to
              par...I
              > > was spending what I would pay for a new bio wheel.
              > >
              > > Anyway, I got that...I was told I could just plop in on in (i
              did
              > > rinse the stuff first). The tank was due for a water change but
              he
              > > didnt suggest I do that at the same time unless I put a stress
              coat
              > > in. So, what we did is probably less than 10% water change
              getting
              > > some of the large junk (left over wardley food the fish wouldnt
              eat)
              > > out, and it also allowed me to set up the new one better
              lowering
              > > the water level a little.
              > >
              > > I also added a few more live plants. And a new air pump/set up
              along
              > > the back bottom. Tested water not long after and it was still
              fine.
              > >
              > > I tested again today although the fish seem pretty happy.
              > >
              > > Well this is the first time the levels were really off (besides
              the
              > > one bad test kit I had when I lowed the levels bad and it didnt
              need
              > > it)....
              > >
              > > I have this mardel 5 in 1 test strip kit.
              > > Nitrate (NO3) safe
              > > Nitrite (NO2) about 3.0 stress
              > > ppm total hardness about 120 moderate
              > > ppm total alkalnity/buffering capacity was way up there (add ph
              > > minus range)
              > > pH way up there almost pink guess over 8.4 add phMinus range if
              not
              > > off the charts.
              > >
              > >
              > > What did I do??? and what to do now? how much time do I have to
              > > correct it.
              > >
              > > Thanks, I really appreciate you all with every question I have
              had.
              > > You really have helped me a lot, not there yet but I am getting
              much
              > > better, with very little loss in the tank. Thanks for dealing
              with
              > > me :)
              > >
              > > ps. this is a 55 gallon.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3897 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/1/2004
              Subject: Staring with Aquariums, Part IV
              Hmmm, two weeks since I last wrote, and no comments on filtration. I must
              have done a much better job than I thought! Since there has been a recent
              discussion on the list about heaters, I'll touch upon them this week, and,
              if I don't ramble on too much, I'll also say something about substrates.

              First, the heaters. How much do you need to heat a tank to the proper level?
              Well, the definitive answer is that it depends. Like so much in this hobby,
              the truth lays somewhere along a line that includes a number of factors. It
              is difficult to give a hard and fast rule. Most people keep aquaria (that is
              the proper plural for aquarium, in case anyone was wondering) in the living
              area of their homes, less wattage is required than if an aquarium is kept in
              a cool basement, unheated, but insulated garage, etc. The general range for
              aquarium temperature is somewhere between 72 and 80^o F. (the ^0 is used to
              signify the degree symbol since this is written in plain text). Most homes
              have an ambient temperature either slightly below this range or equal to the
              lower end of the range. What this means is that not much is really required
              to raise the temperature to the level you desire.

              In this case, one could use a guideline of 2.5 watts per gallon of tank. If
              your ambient temperature is cooler, or if you require a higher water
              temperature, say for discus, then you may wish to go to a 5 watt per gallon
              rule. As usual, these are just a general guideline, your mileage may vary.

              For larger tanks, say over 30 gallons, you may very well, and very wisely,
              opt for two heaters, each supplying half the wattage needed for the size of
              the tank you have. If you have a 50 gallon tank, following the lower wattage
              for a tank at an average normal temperature, you would require about 125
              watts (50 * 2.5). Since we don't have a heater available to us that weighs
              in with 62.5 watts, we would probably opt for two 75 watt heaters.

              The reasoning behind using two heaters is fairly simple. Should a heater
              fail, then the other heater can take over, or not--depending on which way
              the failure goes, stuck on or not turning on at all. Should a heater stick
              on, the other heater will not kick in because its thermostat will determine
              the water is already warm enough, and you will not come home to a
              bouillabaisse. Should one of the heaters fail and not turn on, the other
              heater can provide enough heat for the tank until the failed heater is
              replaced. The use of two heaters is a cheap form of insurance.

              Admittedly, the quality of heaters is vastly improved from what it was years
              ago, and this may seem like overkill, but should you suffer a heater
              failure, you'll be glad you went the two heater route.

              There may be the question of using a standard hang from the side heater or a
              submersible heater. Today, I think this is just a personal preference. I
              don't see and real disadvantage to using one over the other.

              Once you have water in the tank, and it has come up to at least room
              temperature, you can then attach the heater(s) and start to set the
              temperature. Turn the thermostat all the way down on the heater(s) and then
              turn it up until you see the indicator has shown the heater has turned on.
              Wait at least 12 hours and then adjust the thermostat either up or down
              depending on the temperature you are trying to maintain. This process will
              take several days to reach your optimum temperature. There are some heaters
              that have a marked thermostat that indicates certain temperature levels, and
              setting to that level is supposed to maintain that temperature. When I tried
              one, shortly after they were available in the hobby, I was not very
              satisfied with their accuracy. This may have changed in the intervening
              years, so you may want to bring them up to near the desired temperature and
              take it from there.

              Just remember that water take a lot of energy to change temperature. That
              means that it is slow to rise in temperature and slow to fall, so don't get
              too eager to adjust your thermostat when first setting the temperature. Take
              it slow and easy until you reach the desired level.

              Well, this has gone on longer than I first envisioned. We'll get to
              substrate next time, unless an interesting topic presents itself in the
              meanwhile. As usual, I am open to any comments, questions, or currency
              thrown my way <g>.

              \\Steve//
              For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
              http://www.petsforum.com/was/
              If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
              http://www.pvas.com
              Sheltie Rescue
              http://www.nvsr.org
              Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
              http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
              List Owner: fishadmin
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
              gwapa
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3898 From: Patrick Date: 8/1/2004
              Subject: Re: dyed fish
              Attachments :
                    But it isn't just extremists saying it.  Still, I will concede this to you, I have not found any Ph.D (like I would trust them on this topic anyway) say the process is bad, and I have never read about it in books.  I haven't heard from anyone involved in the process, and don't know where to look for information about dying from the people who do it.  I will even agree that the pain experienced is not the major reason to oppose it because similar things are done when fish are placed into tanks going through the initial cycle.
                    There are many stores that refuse to sell them, but there are also many that do.  I have never come across someone who challenged the fact that painted fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue.  Now that I have had time to think about it, maybe it would be a good idea to do some real looking into the matter.  Do you happen to have a web site for a company that produces such fish so I could check their information?  A wise man once warned against judging, so maybe it would be a good idea to at least hear from the other side. :)
                 
                Patrick N.
                 
                Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                -------Original Message-------
                wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                they want?
                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3899 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/1/2004
                Subject: Re: dyed fish

                   In the last twenty years or so, Goldfish, placed living, in womens high-heels was outlawed as cruel. Feeding calves for veal tenderizing, nothing but milk, so they developed soft, tender muscles is still the rule as far as I know. On top of that, keeping them immobilized in stalls too small to allow movement (also to prevent toughening the muscles) is the rule. PLUS, they tend to have to live in the resultant diarhea.

                   Feeding Cattle carnivore-food (meat and blood, yes, blood) to bulk-up for profit has been the rule, and the cattles' stomachs are'nt evolved to handle it.. That causes ulcers in the cattles' stomachs, which necessitates the use of antibiotics to handle the resultant infection/infection potential. It's been said the antibiotics are shoveled into their food. That's economics, and national/family values, along with acid-bathing fish to facilitate injecting dye to gild the lily. Bush and  Kerry don't seem to be leading into that consumer inventory.

                                  Joe P

                -------------- Original message --------------
                But it isn't just extremists saying it. Still, I will concede this to you, I have not found any Ph.D (like I would trust them on this topic anyway) say the process is bad, and I have never read about it in books. I haven't heard from anyone involved in the process, and don't know where to look for information about dying from the people who do it. I will even agree that the pain experienced is not the major reason to oppose it because similar things are done when fish are placed into tanks going through the initial cycle.
                There are many stores that refuse to sell them, but there are also many that do. I have never come across someone who challenged the fact that painted fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue. Now that I have had time to think about it, maybe it would be a good idea to do some real looking into the matter. Do you happen to have a web site for a company that produces such fish so I could check their information? A wise man once warned against judging, so maybe it would be a good idea to at least hear from the other side. :)
                Patrick N.
                Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                -------Original Message-------
                wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                they want?






                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3900 From: Aaron Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
                "Wisegirls" 2002, very long (10 foot) tank along the wall in the
                restraunt as ell as a 4 foot in back room


                ---
                >
                > I have noticed alot of movies and TV shows that feature aquariums
                as
                > part of the set.
                >
                > Can you list any shows that you've seen aquariums in, especially
                > those that played an integral part of the script, i.e. "Duece
                > Bigelow", etc...
                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3901 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: dyed fish
                they is a giant leap from a one time injection to
                beating goldfish around inside an acrylic shoe
                everytime you take a step, and an even greater leap to
                compare a fish to a large mamal with a large brain
                that absolutely feels pain in the same manner as
                humans do. how about we leave the politics to a
                political forum and stick to freaking fish in here!

                --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                > In the last twenty years or so, Goldfish, placed
                > living, in womens high-heels was outlawed as cruel.
                > Feeding calves for veal tenderizing, nothing but
                > milk, so they developed soft, tender muscles is
                > still the rule as far as I know. On top of that,
                > keeping them immobilized in stalls too small to
                > allow movement (also to prevent toughening the
                > muscles) is the rule. PLUS, they tend to have to
                > live in the resultant diarhea.
                > Feeding Cattle carnivore-food (meat and blood,
                > yes, blood) to bulk-up for profit has been the rule,
                > and the cattles' stomachs are'nt evolved to handle
                > it.. That causes ulcers in the cattles' stomachs,
                > which necessitates the use of antibiotics to handle
                > the resultant infection/infection potential. It's
                > been said the antibiotics are shoveled into their
                > food. That's economics, and national/family values,
                > along with acid-bathing fish to facilitate injecting
                > dye to gild the lily. Bush and Kerry don't seem to
                > be leading into that consumer inventory.
                > Joe P
                >
                > -------------- Original message --------------
                > But it isn't just extremists saying it. Still, I
                > will concede this to you, I have not found any Ph.D
                > (like I would trust them on this topic anyway) say
                > the process is bad, and I have never read about it
                > in books. I haven't heard from anyone involved in
                > the process, and don't know where to look for
                > information about dying from the people who do it. I
                > will even agree that the pain experienced is not the
                > major reason to oppose it because similar things are
                > done when fish are placed into tanks going through
                > the initial cycle.
                > There are many stores that refuse to sell them, but
                > there are also many that do. I have never come
                > across someone who challenged the fact that painted
                > fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue. Now
                > that I have had time to think about it, maybe it
                > would be a good idea to do some real looking into
                > the matter. Do you happen to have a web site for a
                > company that produces such fish so I could check
                > their information? A wise man once warned against
                > judging, so maybe it would be a good idea to at
                > least hear from the other side. :)
                > Patrick N.
                > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                > Nitrogen Cycle:
                > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5 glolights,
                > 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta,
                > and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this
                > setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                > swords.
                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
                > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                > -------Original Message-------
                > wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                > they want?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                >
                FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > Terms of Service.





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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3902 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge.
                exactly the smart ass jerk attitude that was
                referenced before. people are here for advice, not to
                be reemed by you. offer help or shut up!
                --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                > Algae is a one celled plant, except for blue green
                > algae which is actually a bacteria that acts like an
                > algae it is all the same in the end. Algae can only
                > exist because there is excess nutrients in the tank.
                > Nutrients are: light, fish waste, uneaten food, dead
                > plants.fertilizer etc. Reoccurring algae is just a
                > symptom of another problem. Its called apathy. It
                > will keep coming back until you decide to learn the
                > right way to deal with it. If this seems like too
                > much work, give the fish back to the LFS, drain the
                > tank and raise hamsters. Aquariums make excellent
                > habitats for hamsters. Or start by putting your
                > lights on a timer, try to figure out where the
                > excess nutrients are coming from. The game plan is
                > to out compete the algae for the nutrients. Of
                > course this is much harder to do with plastic plants
                > and shipwrecks and divers and treasure chests with
                > bubbles coming out. The Chinese algae eater very
                > rarely eats algae, the flying fox will keep the
                > glass clean, the true sae will eat
                > the brown algae. Wal Mart doesn't know the
                > difference.and doesn't care. My point here is get
                > serious or live with the problem.
                >
                > Harry
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!




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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3903 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge/Paul.
                At least I didn't resort to calling names. 
                 
                 
                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                exactly the smart ass jerk attitude that was
                referenced before.  people are here for advice, not to
                be reemed by you.  offer help or shut up!
                --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                > Algae is a one celled plant, except for blue green
                > algae which is actually a bacteria that acts like an
                > algae it is all the same in the end. Algae can only
                > exist because there is excess nutrients in the tank.
                > Nutrients are: light, fish waste, uneaten food, dead
                > plants.fertilizer etc. Reoccurring algae is just a
                > symptom of another problem. Its called apathy. It
                > will keep coming back until you decide to learn the
                > right way to deal with it. If this seems like too
                > much work, give the fish back to the LFS, drain the
                > tank and raise hamsters. Aquariums make excellent
                > habitats for hamsters. Or start by putting your
                > lights on a timer, try to figure out where the
                > excess nutrients are coming from. The game plan is
                > to out compete the algae for the nutrients. Of
                > course this is much harder to do with plastic plants
                > and shipwrecks and divers and treasure chests with
                > bubbles coming out. The Chinese algae eater very
                > rarely eats algae, the flying fox will keep the
                > glass clean, the true sae will eat
                >  the brown algae. Wal Mart doesn't know the
                > difference.and doesn't care. My point here is get
                > serious or live with the problem.

                > Harry 
                >
                >            
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!



                           
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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3904 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge/Paul.
                At least I didn't resort to calling names. 
                 
                 
                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                exactly the smart ass jerk attitude that was
                referenced before.  people are here for advice, not to
                be reemed by you.  offer help or shut up!
                --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                > Algae is a one celled plant, except for blue green
                > algae which is actually a bacteria that acts like an
                > algae it is all the same in the end. Algae can only
                > exist because there is excess nutrients in the tank.
                > Nutrients are: light, fish waste, uneaten food, dead
                > plants.fertilizer etc. Reoccurring algae is just a
                > symptom of another problem. Its called apathy. It
                > will keep coming back until you decide to learn the
                > right way to deal with it. If this seems like too
                > much work, give the fish back to the LFS, drain the
                > tank and raise hamsters. Aquariums make excellent
                > habitats for hamsters. Or start by putting your
                > lights on a timer, try to figure out where the
                > excess nutrients are coming from. The game plan is
                > to out compete the algae for the nutrients. Of
                > course this is much harder to do with plastic plants
                > and shipwrecks and divers and treasure chests with
                > bubbles coming out. The Chinese algae eater very
                > rarely eats algae, the flying fox will keep the
                > glass clean, the true sae will eat
                >  the brown algae. Wal Mart doesn't know the
                > difference.and doesn't care. My point here is get
                > serious or live with the problem.

                > Harry 
                >
                >            
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!



                           
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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3905 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Movies & TV shows w/ Aquariums
                Ah. There is a Bollywood movie (don't know how many of the people here watch
                it) called "Hangama". This very rich guy comes to live in Bombay from his
                village and has a massive house with every wall in the house having a
                massive tank.. I counted 11 then decided to stop counting. Its also a very
                good comedy for people who watch bollywood :)

                Nim


                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: Aaron [mailto:massagetherapist@...]
                >Sent: 02 August 2004 09:12
                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Movies & TV shows w/
                >Aquariums
                >
                >"Wisegirls" 2002, very long (10 foot) tank along the wall in the
                >restraunt as ell as a 4 foot in back room
                >
                >
                >---
                >>
                >> I have noticed alot of movies and TV shows that feature aquariums
                >as
                >> part of the set.
                >>
                >> Can you list any shows that you've seen aquariums in, especially
                >> those that played an integral part of the script, i.e. "Duece
                >> Bigelow", etc...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3906 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: dyed fish/Paul
                Talk about attitude. Wow!!!

                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                they is a giant leap from a one time injection to
                beating goldfish around inside an acrylic shoe
                everytime you take a step, and an even greater leap to
                compare a fish to a large mamal with a large brain
                that absolutely feels pain in the same manner as
                humans do. how about we leave the politics to a
                political forum and stick to freaking fish in here!

                --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                > In the last twenty years or so, Goldfish, placed
                > living, in womens high-heels was outlawed as cruel.
                > Feeding calves for veal tenderizing, nothing but
                > milk, so they developed soft, tender muscles is
                > still the rule as far as I know. On top of that,
                > keeping them immobilized in stalls too small to
                > allow movement (also to prevent toughening the
                > muscles) is the rule. PLUS, they tend to have to
                > live in the resultant diarhea.
                > Feeding Cattle carnivore-food (meat and blood,
                > yes, blood) to bulk-up for profit has been the rule,
                > and the cattles' stomachs are'nt evolved to handle
                > it.. That causes ulcers in the cattles' stomachs,
                > which necessitates the use of antibiotics to handle
                > the resultant infection/infection potential. It's
                > been said the antibiotics are shoveled into their
                > food. That's economics, and national/family values,
                > along with acid-bathing fish to facilitate injecting
                > dye to gild the lily. Bush and Kerry don't seem to
                > be leading into that consumer inventory.
                > Joe P
                >
                > -------------- Original message --------------
                > But it isn't just extremists saying it. Still, I
                > will concede this to you, I have not found any Ph.D
                > (like I would trust them on this topic anyway) say
                > the process is bad, and I have never read about it
                > in books. I haven't heard from anyone involved in
                > the process, and don't know where to look for
                > information about dying from the people who do it. I
                > will even agree that the pain experienced is not the
                > major reason to oppose it because similar things are
                > done when fish are placed into tanks going through
                > the initial cycle.
                > There are many stores that refuse to sell them, but
                > there are also many that do. I have never come
                > across someone who challenged the fact that painted
                > fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue. Now
                > that I have had time to think about it, maybe it
                > would be a good idea to do some real looking into
                > the matter. Do you happen to have a web site for a
                > company that produces such fish so I could check
                > their information? A wise man once warned against
                > judging, so maybe it would be a good idea to at
                > least hear from the other side. :)
                > Patrick N.
                > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                > Nitrogen Cycle:
                > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5 glolights,
                > 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta,
                > and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this
                > setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                > swords.
                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
                > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                > -------Original Message-------
                > wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                > they want?
                >
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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3907 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: dyed fish/Patrick
                A wise man indeed!!
                 
                Harry

                Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                    But it isn't just extremists saying it.  Still, I will concede this to you, I have not found any Ph.D (like I would trust them on this topic anyway) say the process is bad, and I have never read about it in books.  I haven't heard from anyone involved in the process, and don't know where to look for information about dying from the people who do it.  I will even agree that the pain experienced is not the major reason to oppose it because similar things are done when fish are placed into tanks going through the initial cycle.
                    There are many stores that refuse to sell them, but there are also many that do.  I have never come across someone who challenged the fact that painted fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue.  Now that I have had time to think about it, maybe it would be a good idea to do some real looking into the matter.  Do you happen to have a web site for a company that produces such fish so I could check their information?  A wise man once warned against judging, so maybe it would be a good idea to at least hear from the other side. :)
                 
                Patrick N.
                 
                Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                -------Original Message-------
                wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                they want?


                        




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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3908 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Staring with Aquariums, Part IV
                Fantastic post. Like going to a seminar. If folks save your messages it would be like an "owners manual" for keeping fish. Thank you
                 
                Harry

                Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:
                Hmmm, two weeks since I last wrote, and no comments on filtration. I must
                have done a much better job than I thought! Since there has been a recent
                discussion on the list about heaters, I'll touch upon them this week, and,
                if I don't ramble on too much, I'll also say something about substrates.

                First, the heaters. How much do you need to heat a tank to the proper level?
                Well, the definitive answer is that it depends. Like so much in this hobby,
                the truth lays somewhere along a line that includes a number of factors. It
                is difficult to give a hard and fast rule. Most people keep aquaria (that is
                the proper plural for aquarium, in case anyone was wondering) in the living
                area of their homes, less wattage is required than if an aquarium is kept in
                a cool basement, unheated, but insulated garage, etc. The general range for
                aquarium temperature is somewhere between 72 and 80^o F. (the ^0 is used to
                signify the degree symbol since this is written in plain text). Most homes
                have an ambient temperature either slightly below this range or equal to the
                lower end of the range. What this means is that not much is really required
                to raise the temperature to the level you desire.

                In this case, one could use a guideline of 2.5 watts per gallon of tank. If
                your ambient temperature is cooler, or if you require a higher water
                temperature, say for discus, then you may wish to go to a 5 watt per gallon
                rule. As usual, these are just a general guideline, your mileage may vary.

                For larger tanks, say over 30 gallons, you may very well, and very wisely,
                opt for two heaters, each supplying half the wattage needed for the size of
                the tank you have. If you have a 50 gallon tank, following the lower wattage
                for a tank at an average normal temperature, you would require about 125
                watts (50 * 2.5). Since we don't have a heater available to us that weighs
                in with 62.5 watts, we would probably opt for two 75 watt heaters.

                The reasoning behind using two heaters is fairly simple. Should a heater
                fail, then the other heater can take over, or not--depending on which way
                the failure goes, stuck on or not turning on at all. Should a heater stick
                on, the other heater will not kick in because its thermostat will determine
                the water is already warm enough, and you will not come home to a
                bouillabaisse. Should one of the heaters fail and not turn on, the other
                heater can provide enough heat for the tank until the failed heater is
                replaced. The use of two heaters is a cheap form of insurance.

                Admittedly, the quality of heaters is vastly improved from what it was years
                ago, and this may seem like overkill, but should you suffer a heater
                failure, you'll be glad you went the two heater route.

                There may be the question of using a standard hang from the side heater or a
                submersible heater. Today, I think this is just a personal preference. I
                don't see and real disadvantage to using one over the other.

                Once you have water in the tank, and it has come up to at least room
                temperature, you can then attach the heater(s) and start to set the
                temperature. Turn the thermostat all the way down on the heater(s) and then
                turn it up until you see the indicator has shown the heater has turned on.
                Wait at least 12 hours and then adjust the thermostat either up or down
                depending on the temperature you are trying to maintain. This process will
                take several days to reach your optimum temperature. There are some heaters
                that have a marked thermostat that indicates certain temperature levels, and
                setting to that level is supposed to maintain that temperature. When I tried
                one, shortly after they were available in the hobby, I was not very
                satisfied with their accuracy. This may have changed in the intervening
                years, so you may want to bring them up to near the desired temperature and
                take it from there.

                Just remember that water take a lot of energy to change temperature. That
                means that it is slow to rise in temperature and slow to fall, so don't get
                too eager to adjust your thermostat when first setting the temperature. Take
                it slow and easy until you reach the desired level.

                Well, this has gone on longer than I first envisioned. We'll get to
                substrate next time, unless an interesting topic presents itself in the
                meanwhile. As usual, I am open to any comments, questions, or currency
                thrown my way <g>.

                \\Steve//
                For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                http://www.pvas.com
                Sheltie Rescue
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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3909 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: algae back!!!!endless battle
                I think the best (but not fastest) long-term solution to eliminating algae is to simply grow a lot of healthy aquatic plants (yeah, right! easier said than done!) side-by-side with very light fish population and frugal feeding. It wasn't a straightforward affair for me though. I had a algae break-out first (blue green, spot, fur, hair and thread alga), followed by bacterial bloom (it made the water turn milky-white) before the water finaly cleared (after 6 weeks)along with most of the algae growth.
                 
                It is a 20gal daylit (direfct sunlight only for 3 hours in the afternoon) tank with 8 red platies, none longer than 1.5 cm, two otocincluses, maybe around 20 ghost shrimp and three kinds of snails, fed only with just a pinch of flakefood and a quarter of a sinking tablet once-twice a week. Substrate is 2" washed old garden soil, water change is 25% every two-three weeks (more often during the algae and bacteria bloom). The tank doesn't have a filter system. Even the sides are clear of algae. Tank is brimming with several kinds of plants, including floating plants to the point I'm having problems with allelopathy and competition. Aside from the semi-weekly feeding and semi-monthly addition of liquid fertilizer, I just remove the overgrowth and dead leaves.
                 
                My main problem with my other tanks is that I can't resist keeping fish that are too many, grow too big or  too greedy. :-) I guess my worst enemy is not the algae but myself.

                Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:
                Excellant idea, watch out for those chinese algae eaters, they sometimes "Go
                Postal" and take a liking for fish flesh. don't know why. Some will never
                bother another fish but some take up a life like a lamprey and you start
                seeing gapping holes in your fish, the only way to keep the fish from dying
                from the wound is a last dich effort, neoporum triple antibiotic ointment ,
                catch fich, handle with wet hands, apply to the entire wound area. do use
                for small wounds but if you have a large wound there realy isn't any other
                choice. Mark
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>
                To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 4:41 PM
                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] algae back!!!!endless battle


                > great advice mark!
                > the only thing that i would add to that is to get a
                > good algae eater, or a good snail popultaion.
                >
                > --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Algae, a simple problem, kill all flora, then again,
                > > you end up killing off
                > > your plants and some fish.
                > >
                > > I have found that to not have algae is basically
                > > impossible. Yea, here comes
                > > the millions of  "I'm wrong and here's the magic
                > > cure" statements.
                > >
                > > There are so many algae kills in the LFS and they
                > > all do about the same
                > > thing, if you use enough to kill off the algae you
                > > end up killing off your
                > > plants.
                > >
                > > Here's some possible causes of algae blooms
                > >
                > > 1) Sometimes the problem is simply to much nutrients
                > > from feeding your fish
                > > too much
                > >
                > > 2) Wrong lighting/worn out lights/ light of the
                > > wrong wavelength/ lights on
                > > too long
                > >
                > > 3) PO4 [potassium] kicked up in your local water
                > > supply , the municipalities
                > > do this keep their water mains from getting damaged
                > > in the warmer months.
                > >
                > > 4) too much sunlight
                > >
                > > 5) unknown reasons
                > >
                > > So with so many possibilities finding a cure is a
                > > test in futility.
                > > What some do is scrub away as much algae as possible
                > > to loosen it up then
                > > add Kent Freshwater Pro-Clear which binds it up and
                > > deposits it in the
                > > filter. You'll see the results in the filter
                > > elements as there will be a
                > > bunch of green "Scum" in there..
                > >
                > > Hope some of this helps. BTW, I'd go the route of
                > > lighten up on the feeding
                > > , if your light bulbs are over a yr old change them,
                > > if the tank is getting
                > > allot of sunlight use foil to block the sunlight
                > > off, and lastly don't use
                > > algaecide, it just doesn't work except to mess up
                > > your tanks balance.
                > >
                > > Mark
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>
                > > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 7:27 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] algae
                > > back!!!!!!
                > >
                > >
                > > > how much light does the tank get?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- simonsmommy0117@... wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > last time I had algae it was green, this time
                > > its
                > > > > like brown? I put  my
                > > > > Siamese algae fish in there for the tine being,
                > > but
                > > > > what's up with this brown
                > > > > algae? Its all over my plants (plastic and silk
                > > of
                > > > > course) all over the glass  and
                > > > > decorations. It just developed the last 2 days.
                > > > > There are 10 fish in the
                > > > > tank, its fully cycled! thanks
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > __________________________________
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                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
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                >
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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3910 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: Badis Badis/Dario Dario.
                I keep Badis siamensis but from what I have gleaned, they have the same requirements as the other badis species. Most important info I can give you from my experience is that they do prefer live food anytime over dead or processed food. They easily breed but I can't seem to get any fry; either they eat the eggs and/or fry or the tank doesn't have enough infusoria to sustain the fry.


                Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:
                For _Dario dario_ take a look at http:/www.fishbase.org and enter Dario in
                the genus field. This will give you mainly scientific information about the
                fish, but it is a start.

                Care and breeding are as for _Badis badis_.

                \\Steve//

                -----Original Message-----
                From: harryfisherman [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:49 AM
                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Badis Badis/Dario Dario.


                Is any one here keeping either one or both of these species. I am
                interested in sources and breeding info. Thanks

                Harry









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                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3911 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/2/2004
                Subject: Re: badis
                Attachments :

                  Here's some pics of these little-known aquarium fishes. If you like small or dwarf species, you'll like these guys! :-)

                  The first two pics are of Badis badis, the next two are of Badis siamensis, the last I think is Badis dario. Badis are also called chameleon fish because they are capable of extreme color changes. I only have siamensis, probably the smallest of the Badis genus, at 3 centimeters maximum body lenght for the male and 2 centimeters for the female. The male siamensis can go from ghostly metallic blue to fire-engine red, showing or not showing black speckles, depending upon the mood. The pictures I have do not do justice to the colors these fish are capable of displaying.

                  Rod


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                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3912 From: daniel_roachus Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                  <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                  > I didn't know you could compare a CAE to an SAE. CAE's are
                  full of
                  > false advertising. They are from Thailand, not China, and they are
                  > omnivores, not algae eaters. SAE's, on the other hand, are
                  supposed to be
                  > peaceful, 5 inch algae eaters that eat some algaes that other algae
                  eaters
                  > don't touch. And they really are from Thailand (aka Siam).
                  >
                  > Patrick N.
                  >

                  according to
                  http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/fw/profile.asp?
                  id=Gyrinocheilus+aymonieri

                  they're from india!
                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3913 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: CAE vs. SAE
                  Daniel,

                  In reality, there is so much confusion on these species that we as hobbyists
                  cannot really confirm what species we have. The Chinese algae eater as
                  mentioned in fishbase.org has the same latin name as you describe but it
                  comes from the Mekong river basins and the area.
                  http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Gyrinocheilus&s
                  peciesname=aymonieri
                  fishbase cannot be wrong as it is linked with CITES and IUCN redlist.

                  What comes from India are the Garra species. Most of them are small species
                  that look exactly like the CAE to us and do a good work on algae as well and
                  are not aggressive either. The only common thing about all them is that once
                  they get a taste of the Mucus coating on the fish, they chose to eat that
                  rather then algae.

                  As Harry and Patrick correctly stated that once a little older, they decide
                  to eat fish rather then algae, my experience with them has been about
                  tastes. As long as they don't taste the fish mucus, they remain with algae.
                  I have even seen some very young CAE clinging on to discus and other slower
                  defenseless fish like parasites. So I cannot say that once they grow to 10cm
                  or 12cm, they will become aggressive.. it is an individual nature and can
                  happen anytime they realize it. Some people may be lucky, some not.

                  SAE is great for thread like algae and dust algae. They don't go after mucus
                  coating etc. and are very peaceful except for a bit of playful chasing
                  amongst themselves. My 30" tank was in bad shape with black beard algae. I
                  got 4 1" SAE on Friday evening and by Sunday morning, I had too search for
                  any remaining hair of this algae. They are equally effective against hair
                  and thread algae but if kept alone, may not be as effective as they like
                  company.

                  For green spot, dust, or any other non thread algae (and except BGA),
                  garras, bristlenose catfish, most smaller plecs, ottos etc. are the most
                  effective. Kissing gouramis and mollies can also contribute to some extent
                  but not like the hardworking algae eaters that work all night to clean the
                  tank.

                  Also note that CAE and SAE cannot be compared in any way. SAE is the only
                  fish that can eat hair/thread/brush algae. This type of algae is not touched
                  by any other fish except for some cardinia shrimps and some people claim
                  Rosy barbs for them too. CAE on the other hand if will eat algae, it will be
                  dust algae or green spot algae or anything that's not BGA and stringy. It's
                  the design of their mouth.

                  Nim


                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: daniel_roachus [mailto:daniel_roach@...]
                  >Sent: 02 August 2004 12:47
                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: CAE vs. SAE
                  >
                  >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                  ><americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                  >> I didn't know you could compare a CAE to an SAE. CAE's are
                  >full of
                  >> false advertising. They are from Thailand, not China, and they are
                  >> omnivores, not algae eaters. SAE's, on the other hand, are
                  >supposed to be
                  >> peaceful, 5 inch algae eaters that eat some algaes that other algae
                  >eaters
                  >> don't touch. And they really are from Thailand (aka Siam).
                  >>
                  >> Patrick N.
                  >>
                  >
                  >according to
                  >http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/fw/profile.asp?
                  >id=Gyrinocheilus+aymonieri
                  >
                  >they're from india!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3914 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: badis

                  Indeed they are brilliant fish Rod J. Not the easiest to get in the market either.

                   

                  How well do they adapt to a tank that is pumped with CO2? Seems most of your plants are pearling so I gather you are pumping a lot of CO2 in the tank?

                   

                  Nim

                   

                   


                  From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez [mailto:la_rmarquezjr@...]
                  Sent: 02 August 2004 12:11
                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: badis

                   

                  Here's some pics of these little-known aquarium fishes. If you like small or dwarf species, you'll like these guys! :-)

                  The first two pics are of Badis badis, the next two are of Badis siamensis, the last I think is Badis dario. Badis are also called chameleon fish because they are capable of extreme color changes. I only have siamensis, probably the smallest of the Badis genus, at 3 centimeters maximum body lenght for the male and 2 centimeters for the female. The male siamensis can go from ghostly metallic blue to fire-engine red, showing or not showing black speckles, depending upon the mood. The pictures I have do not do justice to the colors these fish are capable of displaying.

                  Rod


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                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3915 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
                  In a message dated 8/1/2004 12:44:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Deenerz@... writes:

                  don't have an answer for you on their adult size

                  Someone posted a link yesterday that listed the adult size of the Clown Pleco as 8.8 cm. I took that measurement into an online conversion chart, and it worked out to be 3.5 inches. That's not much bigger than my one remaining adult mollie.  So a clown pleco might be worth the extra couple of dollars that PetSmart is charging (when compared to their price for Common Pleco).

                  (BTW thanks to whomever posted the link ... AOL has eaten that message because my electricity went out while I was composing my reply message. Our computer is hooked to a big honkin' battery backup, so I was able to shut down properly, but I lost my AOL connection when the power went out.)

                   
                  Erin
                  CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                  ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                  my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3916 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: To Erin: A thought on the pleco.
                  In a message dated 8/1/2004 7:50:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, harryfisherman@... writes:

                  Most folks love cory cats once they have them. There are many different kinds available. They are "cute" they stay small, they travel in schools during the daylight hours. They help clean the bottom but are not algae eaters.

                  Well, since I vacuum the bottom when I do my water changes (alternating which half of the tank I vacuum each week) I don't need a bottom cleaner. I don't have a problem with getting a nocturnal algae eating fish ... I had a common pleco before who was removed from the tank when it got hard for him to swim without knocking over plants.

                  I don't have a big algae problem, just some tiny spots of algae that are covering the aquarium glass that my attempts with an algae scrubber pad aren't working on. I have a pretty good sized  piece of driftwood in the tank, as well as an artificial "hollow log" decoration, so hiding places for the daylight hours aren't a problem either. I've also got 7 aponogeton plants scattered throughout the tank.

                  Which species did you say you had for several years? I wasn't sure if you were referring to Clown Plecostamus, or Cory Cats.
                  Erin
                  CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                  ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                  my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3917 From: harry perry Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
                  5" go to  http://www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0107&view_records=1

                  Witchywmn42@... wrote:
                  In a message dated 8/1/2004 12:44:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Deenerz@... writes:

                  don't have an answer for you on their adult size


                  Someone posted a link yesterday that listed the adult size of the Clown Pleco as 8.8 cm. I took that measurement into an online conversion chart, and it worked out to be 3.5 inches. That's not much bigger than my one remaining adult mollie.  So a clown pleco might be worth the extra couple of dollars that PetSmart is charging (when compared to their price for Common Pleco).

                  (BTW thanks to whomever posted the link ... AOL has eaten that message because my electricity went out while I was composing my reply message. Our computer is hooked to a big honkin' battery backup, so I was able to shut down properly, but I lost my AOL connection when the power went out.)

                   
                  Erin
                  CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                  ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                  my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/



                          



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                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3918 From: secretlaw Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: Frozen food question
                  There are so many ways of how to feed the frozen cubes to the fish.
                  I have heard somebody would defrost the food and they way I do I
                  just throw the cubes in the tank. The fish just come and eat it.



                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Seti"
                  <Seti1st@y...> wrote:
                  > I just got some froen cubes for the first time. Do I need to
                  defrost the food before feeding,
                  > or just throw a frozen cube in the tank?
                  >
                  > ~~Seti
                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3919 From: dozer0011 Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                  Witchywmn42@a... wrote:
                  > In a message dated 8/1/2004 12:44:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  > Deenerz@a... writes:
                  >
                  > > don't have an answer for you on their adult size
                  >
                  > Someone posted a link yesterday that listed the adult size of the
                  Clown Pleco
                  > as 8.8 cm. I took that measurement into an online conversion chart,
                  and it
                  > worked out to be 3.5 inches. That's not much bigger than my one
                  remaining adult
                  > mollie. So a clown pleco might be worth the extra couple of
                  dollars that
                  > PetSmart is charging (when compared to their price for Common
                  Pleco).
                  >
                  > (BTW thanks to whomever posted the link ... AOL has eaten that
                  message
                  > because my electricity went out while I was composing my reply
                  message. Our computer
                  > is hooked to a big honkin' battery backup, so I was able to shut
                  down
                  > properly, but I lost my AOL connection when the power went out.)
                  >
                  > Erin
                  > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                  > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                  http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                  > my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                  YW for the link......just keep in mind that was for Panaque
                  Maccus (aka Clown Plec0). Thats the fish I believe I have based on
                  the pictures.
                  Someone else posted a link for Peckoltia arenaria (aka Clown
                  Plec0) that supposedly reaches 5". I went back to Fishbase.org &
                  found multiple variations of Peckoltia, some of which look quite
                  similar. I did'nt compare max sizes on them all, so you may want to
                  have a look & see what most closely resembles your Petsmart offering.
                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3920 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
                  They are very similar and most fish stores don't really know the exact ID of
                  the fish they were selling. I bought my clown pleco which turned out to be a
                  tiger plec and reached a max size of 3.5". Most species that look like clown
                  pleco have a max size of 3-5" which is good, there may be a couple that grow
                  to 12" as well. Similar thing with golden nugget plec. My golden nugget has
                  been sitting at 2.5" for the past 2 years now in a 5ft tank where as some
                  people report them to grow as big as 16".

                  Nim

                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: dozer0011 [mailto:dozer0011@...]
                  >Sent: 02 August 2004 15:38
                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus
                  >get?
                  >
                  >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                  >Witchywmn42@a... wrote:
                  >> In a message dated 8/1/2004 12:44:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  >> Deenerz@a... writes:
                  >>
                  >> > don't have an answer for you on their adult size
                  >>
                  >> Someone posted a link yesterday that listed the adult size of the
                  >Clown Pleco
                  >> as 8.8 cm. I took that measurement into an online conversion chart,
                  >and it
                  >> worked out to be 3.5 inches. That's not much bigger than my one
                  >remaining adult
                  >> mollie. So a clown pleco might be worth the extra couple of
                  >dollars that
                  >> PetSmart is charging (when compared to their price for Common
                  >Pleco).
                  >>
                  >> (BTW thanks to whomever posted the link ... AOL has eaten that
                  >message
                  >> because my electricity went out while I was composing my reply
                  >message. Our computer
                  >> is hooked to a big honkin' battery backup, so I was able to shut
                  >down
                  >> properly, but I lost my AOL connection when the power went out.)
                  >>
                  >> Erin
                  >> CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                  >> ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                  >http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                  >> my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                  >
                  > YW for the link......just keep in mind that was for Panaque
                  >Maccus (aka Clown Plec0). Thats the fish I believe I have based on
                  >the pictures.
                  > Someone else posted a link for Peckoltia arenaria (aka Clown
                  >Plec0) that supposedly reaches 5". I went back to Fishbase.org &
                  >found multiple variations of Peckoltia, some of which look quite
                  >similar. I did'nt compare max sizes on them all, so you may want to
                  >have a look & see what most closely resembles your Petsmart offering.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3921 From: Dozer Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: How big do Clown Plecostamus get?
                         I agree completely............one could easily specialize in Plecs for a lifetime & never aquire complete knowledge.
                         IME there is also a wide range in growth rates as well,  so I tend to ID the species as best I can to make an informed decision if not exact. I figure I can always trade, sell, or give them away before I can no longer properly house them.

                  Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                  They are very similar and most fish stores don't really know the exact ID of
                  the fish they were selling. I bought my clown pleco which turned out to be a
                  tiger plec and reached a max size of 3.5". Most species that look like clown
                  pleco have a max size of 3-5" which is good, there may be a couple that grow
                  to 12" as well. Similar thing with golden nugget plec. My golden nugget has
                  been sitting at 2.5" for the past 2 years now in a 5ft tank where as some
                  people report them to grow as big as 16".

                  Nim

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                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3922 From: Trikashaivism Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Striped Raphael fin problem

                  Hello all,

                   

                  I sent I this question a couple of days ago but it never appeared within the group.  My striped Raphael catfish (Platydoras Costatus) has lost the majority of his the fin in both his pectoral fins.  Most of what he has left appears to be the bony strip that runs down the outside rim of the fin and this looks like it has been stripped clean.  Besides from this his other fins seem untouched and he seems fine, but I am stumped as to what could cause this.  The only other fish in his tank are 12 neon tetras and an adult Kissing/Pink Gourami (they all appear to well) and between them all there never seems to be any conflict or disputes,it is a very peaceful environment.

                   

                  Any insights please as to what has damaged his fins?

                   

                  Thanking you,

                  Neil

                   

                   

                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3923 From: joequality1980 Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: breeding: differently colored species
                  One of my swordtails recently lost his last ladyfriend. I want to
                  get him more femails, but I havent found any that are of his
                  particular color. Does that matter? Will they find happiness if the
                  swordtails are colored differently?
                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3924 From: Patrick Date: 8/2/2004
                  Subject: Re: breeding: differently colored species
                  Attachments :
                        All swordtails are the same species as far as I know, and they will all interbreed, as well as several other similar fish that are of different species (mollies, platies, guppies). 
                     
                    Patrick N.
                     
                    Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                    -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                    -------Original Message-------
                    One of my swordtails recently lost his last ladyfriend. I want to
                    get him more femails, but I havent found any that are of his
                    particular color. Does that matter? Will they find happiness if the
                    swordtails are colored differently?
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3925 From: T. Lee Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: How I Solved Black Beard Algae
                    When I had Black Beard Algae I:
                    *modified my lighting (random lighting and shorter lighting)
                    *got two (false) siamese algae eaters
                    *got three apple snails
                    *plucked any plant leaves with BBA on it
                    *did daily 2 litre water changes
                     
                    It went away soon enough - within a month or two.  I caught guppies nibbling at it once or twice - not sure if they were eating it, or testing it.
                     
                    Not sure if any one thing helped, or if anything did.  All I know is I don't have Black Beard Algae anymore, and it's good. :)
                     
                    -Lee
                    3 foot tank
                    Australia
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3926 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: algae eaters
                    after about 8 months of being set up, i finally started getting a bit
                    of algae on the walls of my 55 gallon tank. not very much at all, but
                    enough so that once a week i do a little scrubbing on the glass. most
                    of it gets eaten by my pleco, but there are a lot of small surfaces in
                    my tank and he's now much too big to reach them and has gotten to where
                    he seems to prefer wafers anyway.
                    i picked up a couple of ottos and i am SO pleased with them i think i
                    may have to buy more! they're shy, but active, very cute and can get
                    the algae out of the smallest crevices! i keep a pair of hypodermics on
                    the bottom of my tank, capped (so it's like the real ocean, lol) and
                    they even got the algae out of the crevices in that! i have to
                    recommend these fish highly. they're great for a community tank, so
                    long as there's a place for them to escape from any particularly
                    aggressive fish.
                    amalthea
                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3927 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish
                    Paul,

                    The problem is that there are a number of groups out there who would like
                    nothing more than to outlaw the ownership of all animals by people. Around
                    here, they are outlawing the keeping of snakeheads since several have been
                    found in public waters. This is a very dangerous move, and may easily affect
                    the whole country, since around here is the Washington, DC metro area. While
                    I doubt I would ever keep a snakehead myself, I can't rule out that
                    possibility, and I certainly would not want to deny anyone the opportunity
                    to do so. Rather than take a look at the individual species, and making
                    rulings based on species, they want to outlaw the whole genus, and possibly
                    related species and genus also. The snake head in question is known as the
                    northern snakehead, a common name not found in any common name listing I
                    looked at, and known to science as _Channa micropeltes_.

                    About the veal that was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, what was
                    described is known in the trade as "natural" veal. Don't buy it if you don't
                    agree with the way it is raised. When I eat veal, it is always labeled as
                    "bob" veal, in which the calf is raised for its short life by "mom".

                    We should be aware of what is happening, though, quite often, it is hard to
                    ferret out, and write to the appropriate people to let them know where we
                    stand on the issue. Keep the letters/e-mail, short, to the point, and
                    factual. Include your contact information should the powers that be want to
                    talk with you further. And speaking of ferrets--another animal that is
                    outlawed in, at least, several states that I know of, with no real good
                    reason that I can determine.

                    \\Steve//

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                    Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:13 AM
                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: dyed fish


                    they is a giant leap from a one time injection to
                    beating goldfish around inside an acrylic shoe
                    everytime you take a step, and an even greater leap to
                    compare a fish to a large mamal with a large brain
                    that absolutely feels pain in the same manner as
                    humans do. how about we leave the politics to a
                    political forum and stick to freaking fish in here!
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3928 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: How I Solved Black Beard Algae
                    good to know lee, i am using the same method, and a
                    little melafix as well....seems to be working


                    --- "T. Lee" <tleew@...> wrote:

                    > When I had Black Beard Algae I:
                    > *modified my lighting (random lighting and shorter
                    > lighting)
                    > *got two (false) siamese algae eaters
                    > *got three apple snails
                    > *plucked any plant leaves with BBA on it
                    > *did daily 2 litre water changes
                    >
                    > It went away soon enough - within a month or two. I
                    > caught guppies nibbling at it once or twice - not
                    > sure if they were eating it, or testing it.
                    >
                    > Not sure if any one thing helped, or if anything
                    > did. All I know is I don't have Black Beard Algae
                    > anymore, and it's good. :)
                    >
                    > -Lee
                    > 3 foot tank
                    > Australia




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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3929 From: questnjurny Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish
                    Steve,

                    Just had to say, well written post. Once groups/government start
                    telling us what we can and cannot own or do with our animals (other
                    than cruelty etc of course) there is no limit as to where it will
                    stop. As you mentioned, there are many groups, and the most well
                    known animal rights group who advocate that no animal should be owned
                    by any person, that includes fish!

                    I agree, find what you believe in, as in not buying from stores who
                    carry dyed fish, whatever, and stick to your beliefs. Personally, I
                    will not buy from any store/chain of stores who sell puppies/kittens
                    and have issues with small animals as well. This really limits my
                    choice of where I can buy fish, but I would rather pay a little extra
                    than support those companies. I hate the fact that Hagen is the maker
                    of Aqua Clear filters as Hagen will only stock stores that sell
                    animals, and unfortunatly I really like the AC filters...these are my
                    personal values, everyone needs to find their own, whether it be about
                    fish, veal, dogs whatever, and everyone also needs to remember that
                    each person's values are important to them, even though sometimes they
                    may not be to us.

                    I hope this post is fishie enough not to tick anyone off...in the
                    grand scheme of things politics can affect the keeping of freshwater
                    fish (the subject of the list) and I think it is important that we all
                    keep ourselves at least somewhat informed!

                    Carly

                    > Paul,
                    >
                    > The problem is that there are a number of groups out there who would
                    like
                    > nothing more than to outlaw the ownership of all animals by people.
                    Around
                    > here, they are outlawing the keeping of snakeheads since several
                    have been
                    > found in public waters. This is a very dangerous move, and may
                    easily affect
                    > the whole country, since around here is the Washington, DC metro
                    area. While
                    > I doubt I would ever keep a snakehead myself, I can't rule out that
                    > possibility, and I certainly would not want to deny anyone the
                    opportunity
                    > to do so. Rather than take a look at the individual species, and making
                    > rulings based on species, they want to outlaw the whole genus, and
                    possibly
                    > related species and genus also. The snake head in question is known
                    as the
                    > northern snakehead, a common name not found in any common name listing I
                    > looked at, and known to science as _Channa micropeltes_.
                    >
                    > About the veal that was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, what was
                    > described is known in the trade as "natural" veal. Don't buy it if
                    you don't
                    > agree with the way it is raised. When I eat veal, it is always
                    labeled as
                    > "bob" veal, in which the calf is raised for its short life by "mom".
                    >
                    > We should be aware of what is happening, though, quite often, it is
                    hard to
                    > ferret out, and write to the appropriate people to let them know
                    where we
                    > stand on the issue. Keep the letters/e-mail, short, to the point, and
                    > factual. Include your contact information should the powers that be
                    want to
                    > talk with you further. And speaking of ferrets--another animal that is
                    > outlawed in, at least, several states that I know of, with no real good
                    > reason that I can determine.
                    >
                    > \\Steve//
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3930 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: algae eaters
                    >
                    > the algae out of the smallest crevices! i keep a pair of hypodermics
                    > on
                    > the bottom of my tank, capped (so it's like the real ocean, lol) and
                    > they even got the algae out of the crevices in that!

                    Okay. Now. That's the weirdest thing I've ever read :-) Is there any
                    other reason or "just cos" ? <grin>

                    As for Algae Eaters, I am a complete True Siamese Algae Eater convert
                    and will always have them in my tanks.

                    My cleanup crew consists of:

                    3 Corydorus aeneus - general housekeeping duties
                    2 Bristlsnose cats - that for wood munching, and spot algae removal
                    3 True Siamese Algae Eaters - Algae eater extrodinare, they also seem
                    to like some decaying plant material.
                    All helped along by 4 Bolivian Rams, which are Mikrogeophagus
                    altispinosus e.g. earth eaters, so they tends to scavenge along the
                    bottom of the tank as well.

                    There's not a spot of algae in my tank and I never have to do anything.
                    And that's a happy place to be.

                    Tim


                    --
                    Tim Walker
                    Database Developer
                    Life Without Barriers
                    +61 418 971 630
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3931 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: algae eaters
                    well, i'm chronically ill, so i always have them around and when people
                    walk into the room they always see the tank first, the blood parrot
                    second and then there's a funny "oh my!" when they see them on the
                    bottom. i just get a chuckle out of it, lol.
                    amalthea
                    On Aug 2, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Tim Walker wrote:

                    >>
                    >> the algae out of the smallest crevices! i keep a pair of hypodermics
                    >> on
                    >> the bottom of my tank, capped (so it's like the real ocean, lol) and
                    >> they even got the algae out of the crevices in that!
                    .com
                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3932 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: Snails
                    In a message dated 8/1/2004 4:35:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bryants4god@... writes:

                    The eggs you described in your other post make me think this is the type of snail you have, I would image they come in different colors. **snip**   They reproduce like crazy, literally one day you will see 4 or 5 and a few days later you will see a hundred.  **snip** I can't picture what a "breeder box" looks like.
                      **snip**

                    You would probably have better luck using cucumber instead of lettuce. 
                    Thanks for the info. I'll try the cucumber ... I have a veggie clip, so that might work. Maybe zucchini would work too? I have a zucchini stash that I use to feed my fish with once a week. I'll see if the ones who've escaped the breeder box will collect on the zucchini when I put it in tomorrow.

                    Breeder box - clear hard plastic box that floats at the top of the tank, you can put a pregnant fish in there (if I could ever catch them before they have fry, that is) and she has the babies, and the babies fall below a grate in the box to keep her from getting to them. Good concept, but I only use it to keep the babies in once they're already born and I catch them ... because I can never peg when my livebearers are about to have babies. LOL

                    I'll try and remove the snails as I see them, hubby wanted to keep them but now they keep reproducing and he's starting to rethink that.  At least the platies enjoy eating the smaller ones. One of the young snails escaped into the tank (out of the breeder box of course) and one of my platies ate it. I wasn't aware that platies could eat snails ... but then they don't seem to have interest in the snails who've reached adulthood, so maybe only the young snails are small enough for them to eat.

                    I *really* don't want to put chemicals in the tank. Are there any fish that eat snails that I can have peacefully cohabitate with my mollies and platies? I'm not interested in an aggressive fish, or a fish that gets monstrous big. It's GOT to be something that isn't going to terrorize the fish I've already got.

                    Current tank population (not counting snails) :
                    -1 adult female molly (about 2 1/2 inches long)
                    - 2 young female mollys (one black balloon belly, one fancy)
                    - 2 adult female red wag platies
                    - 1 young female red wag platy
                    -1 young (albino?) Mickey Mouse Platy
                    - 2 unidentified fry

                    The tank is a 15 gallon (tall). I don't even know if I really can get more fish, or if I'm too overstocked as it is. I seem to have a tendency to keep my tank overstocked, but it doesn't really cause a problem because I do water changes weekly and change the filter cartridge whenever it needs it. My big problem is with algae, and now the snails that just keep reproducing. The two we started with were cute, but now it's starting to get a little out of hand. If I could get it down to one, and be reasonably sure that the thing wasn't going to lay eggs as soon as I removed all the others, I'd keep one. My son really wants a snail, because his sister has one in her betta tank. (The one in the betta tank isn't laying eggs or anything ... it's just chilling out with the betta.)

                    Well this email has once again gotten a lot longer than originally intended, so I'll send now. Sorry for barraging you with questions! Thanks in advance for any advice.

                    Erin
                    CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                    ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                    my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3933 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: algae eaters
                    In a message dated 8/2/2004 9:57:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, amalthea23@... writes:

                    i keep a pair of hypodermics on
                    the bottom of my tank, capped

                    *blink* LOL Okay ... you got my interest. Why the hypodermics? Just a silly decorative thing, or do they actually serve a purpose there?

                    Erin
                    CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                    ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                    my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3934 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: algae eaters
                    see my previous post :)
                    amalthea
                    On Aug 3, 2004, at 12:22 AM, Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                    > In a message dated 8/2/2004 9:57:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    > amalthea23@... writes:
                    >
                    >
                    > i keep a pair of hypodermics on
                    > the bottom of my tank, capped
                    >
                    >
                    > *blink* LOL Okay ... you got my interest. Why the hypodermics? Just a
                    > silly decorative thing, or do they actually serve a purpose there?
                    >
                    > Erin
                    > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                    > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                    > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                    > my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                    >
                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                    Adornments....
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3935 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish

                    I think appropriate legislation designed to rectify the ecological problems brought about by consumer driven idiologues/free-enterprisers are wonderful if they succeed in eliminating the transplantation of local/native species by cats, dogs, snakeheads, Schefflera, others and any organisms they carry. Change of the environment is going to occur anyway, but trying to curb the unecessary, however fruitful, keeps us going in a cognitive direction. As far as outlawing the personal care for animals by preventing adoption, I believe that's ridiculous.People dump cats, dogs and fish, snakes into the environment. Cats and dogs are easier to control through humane organizations, etc., but when water borne creatures completely upset the local eco-system, and buyers and sellers are the source, there must be a sense of responsibility, and if businessmen and their clients won't change their/our habits, Government us/them must do something, and that's legislate, unless GOD stops it, and I don't think God is missing from some laws.

                                            Joe P

                                

                    -------------- Original message --------------

                    > Paul,
                    >
                    > The problem is that there are a number of groups out there who would like
                    > nothing more than to outlaw the ownership of all animals by people. Around
                    > here, they are outlawing the keeping of snakeheads since several have been
                    > found in public waters. This is a very dangerous move, and may easily affect
                    > the whole country, since around here is the Washington, DC metro area. While
                    > I doubt I would ever keep a snakehead myself, I can't rule out that
                    > possibility, and I certainly would not want to deny anyone the opportunity
                    > to do so. Rather than take a look at the individual species, and making
                    > rulings based on species, they want to outlaw the whole genus, and possibly
                    > related species and genus also. The snake head in question is known as the
                    > northern snakehead, a common name not found in any common name listing I
                    > looked at, and known to science as _Channa micropeltes_.
                    >
                    > About the veal that was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, what was
                    > described is known in the trade as "natural" veal. Don't buy it if you don't
                    > agree with the way it is raised. When I eat veal, it is always labeled as
                    > "bob" veal, in which the calf is raised for its short life by "mom".
                    >
                    > We should be aware of what is happening, though, quite often, it is hard to
                    > ferret out, and write to the appropriate people to let them know where we
                    > stand on the issue. Keep the letters/e-mail, short, to the point, and
                    > factual. Include your contact information should the powers that be want to
                    > talk with you further. And speaking of ferrets--another animal that is
                    > outlawed in, at least, several states that I know of, with no real good
                    > reason that I can determine.
                    >
                    > \\Steve//
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:13 AM
                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: dyed fish
                    >
                    >
                    > they is a giant leap from a one time injection to
                    > beating goldfish around inside an acrylic shoe
                    > everytime you take a step, and an even greater leap to
                    > compare a fish to a large mamal with a large brain
                    > that absolutely feels pain in the same manner as
                    > humans do. how about we leave the politics to a
                    > political forum and stick to freaking fish in here!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3936 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish
                    right on joe
                    --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                    > I think appropriate legislation designed to rectify
                    > the ecological problems brought about by consumer
                    > driven idiologues/free-enterprisers are wonderful if
                    > they succeed in eliminating the transplantation of
                    > local/native species by cats, dogs, snakeheads,
                    > Schefflera, others and any organisms they carry.
                    > Change of the environment is going to occur anyway,
                    > but trying to curb the unecessary, however fruitful,
                    > keeps us going in a cognitive direction. As far as
                    > outlawing the personal care for animals by
                    > preventing adoption, I believe that's
                    > ridiculous.People dump cats, dogs and fish, snakes
                    > into the environment. Cats and dogs are easier to
                    > control through humane organizations, etc., but when
                    > water borne creatures completely upset the local
                    > eco-system, and buyers and sellers are the source,
                    > there must be a sense of responsibility, and if
                    > businessmen and their clients won't change their/our
                    > habits, Government us/them must do something, and
                    > that's legislate, unless GOD stops it, and I don't
                    > think God is missing from some laws.
                    > Joe P
                    >
                    >
                    > -------------- Original message --------------
                    >
                    > > Paul,
                    > >
                    > > The problem is that there are a number of groups
                    > out there who would like
                    > > nothing more than to outlaw the ownership of all
                    > animals by people. Around
                    > > here, they are outlawing the keeping of snakeheads
                    > since several have been
                    > > found in public waters. This is a very dangerous
                    > move, and may easily affect
                    > > the whole country, since around here is the
                    > Washington, DC metro area. While
                    > > I doubt I would ever keep a snakehead myself, I
                    > can't rule out that
                    > > possibility, and I certainly would not want to
                    > deny anyone the opportunity
                    > > to do so. Rather than take a look at the
                    > individual species, and making
                    > > rulings based on species, they want to outlaw the
                    > whole genus, and possibly
                    > > related species and genus also. The snake head in
                    > question is known as the
                    > > northern snakehead, a common name not found in any
                    > common name listing I
                    > > looked at, and known to science as _Channa
                    > micropeltes_.
                    > >
                    > > About the veal that was mentioned elsewhere in
                    > this thread, what was
                    > > described is known in the trade as "natural" veal.
                    > Don't buy it if you don't
                    > > agree with the way it is raised. When I eat veal,
                    > it is always labeled as
                    > > "bob" veal, in which the calf is raised for its
                    > short life by "mom".
                    > >
                    > > We should be aware of what is happening, though,
                    > quite often, it is hard to
                    > > ferret out, and write to the appropriate people to
                    > let them know where we
                    > > stand on the issue. Keep the letters/e-mail,
                    > short, to the point, and
                    > > factual. Include your contact information should
                    > the powers that be want to
                    > > talk with you further. And speaking of
                    > ferrets--another animal that is
                    > > outlawed in, at least, several states that I know
                    > of, with no real good
                    > > reason that I can determine.
                    > >
                    > > \\Steve//
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                    > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:13 AM
                    > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                    > dyed fish
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > they is a giant leap from a one time injection to
                    > > beating goldfish around inside an acrylic shoe
                    > > everytime you take a step, and an even greater
                    > leap to
                    > > compare a fish to a large mamal with a large brain
                    >
                    > > that absolutely feels pain in the same manner as
                    > > humans do. how about we leave the politics to a
                    > > political forum and stick to freaking fish in
                    > here!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >





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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3937 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish
                    carly,
                    you write quite eloquently, and no one should take
                    your post in the wrong way, but i do have to CORRECT
                    you on one matter. Hagen does not sell exclusively to
                    stores who carry animals. that information is 100%
                    incorrect and i have no idea where you got it. i am
                    only saying something because hagen makes very good
                    quality products, and i don't want anyone with your
                    beliefs to shy away from them over false information.
                    i work in a small aquarium shop in california, we do
                    not carry anything but fish, and we do sell hagen
                    products, including filters, air pumps, heaters,
                    decorations, etc. no reptiles, no small animals, no
                    birds, no domestic animals. we only carry fresh and
                    salt water fish.

                    --- questnjurny <questnjurny@...> wrote:

                    > Steve,
                    >
                    > Just had to say, well written post. Once
                    > groups/government start
                    > telling us what we can and cannot own or do with our
                    > animals (other
                    > than cruelty etc of course) there is no limit as to
                    > where it will
                    > stop. As you mentioned, there are many groups, and
                    > the most well
                    > known animal rights group who advocate that no
                    > animal should be owned
                    > by any person, that includes fish!
                    >
                    > I agree, find what you believe in, as in not buying
                    > from stores who
                    > carry dyed fish, whatever, and stick to your
                    > beliefs. Personally, I
                    > will not buy from any store/chain of stores who sell
                    > puppies/kittens
                    > and have issues with small animals as well. This
                    > really limits my
                    > choice of where I can buy fish, but I would rather
                    > pay a little extra
                    > than support those companies. I hate the fact that
                    > Hagen is the maker
                    > of Aqua Clear filters as Hagen will only stock
                    > stores that sell
                    > animals, and unfortunatly I really like the AC
                    > filters...these are my
                    > personal values, everyone needs to find their own,
                    > whether it be about
                    > fish, veal, dogs whatever, and everyone also needs
                    > to remember that
                    > each person's values are important to them, even
                    > though sometimes they
                    > may not be to us.
                    >
                    > I hope this post is fishie enough not to tick anyone
                    > off...in the
                    > grand scheme of things politics can affect the
                    > keeping of freshwater
                    > fish (the subject of the list) and I think it is
                    > important that we all
                    > keep ourselves at least somewhat informed!
                    >
                    > Carly
                    >
                    > > Paul,
                    > >
                    > > The problem is that there are a number of groups
                    > out there who would
                    > like
                    > > nothing more than to outlaw the ownership of all
                    > animals by people.
                    > Around
                    > > here, they are outlawing the keeping of snakeheads
                    > since several
                    > have been
                    > > found in public waters. This is a very dangerous
                    > move, and may
                    > easily affect
                    > > the whole country, since around here is the
                    > Washington, DC metro
                    > area. While
                    > > I doubt I would ever keep a snakehead myself, I
                    > can't rule out that
                    > > possibility, and I certainly would not want to
                    > deny anyone the
                    > opportunity
                    > > to do so. Rather than take a look at the
                    > individual species, and making
                    > > rulings based on species, they want to outlaw the
                    > whole genus, and
                    > possibly
                    > > related species and genus also. The snake head in
                    > question is known
                    > as the
                    > > northern snakehead, a common name not found in any
                    > common name listing I
                    > > looked at, and known to science as _Channa
                    > micropeltes_.
                    > >
                    > > About the veal that was mentioned elsewhere in
                    > this thread, what was
                    > > described is known in the trade as "natural" veal.
                    > Don't buy it if
                    > you don't
                    > > agree with the way it is raised. When I eat veal,
                    > it is always
                    > labeled as
                    > > "bob" veal, in which the calf is raised for its
                    > short life by "mom".
                    > >
                    > > We should be aware of what is happening, though,
                    > quite often, it is
                    > hard to
                    > > ferret out, and write to the appropriate people to
                    > let them know
                    > where we
                    > > stand on the issue. Keep the letters/e-mail,
                    > short, to the point, and
                    > > factual. Include your contact information should
                    > the powers that be
                    > want to
                    > > talk with you further. And speaking of
                    > ferrets--another animal that is
                    > > outlawed in, at least, several states that I know
                    > of, with no real good
                    > > reason that I can determine.
                    > >
                    > > \\Steve//
                    >
                    >
                    >




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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3938 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish/Paul
                    it is called for and directed to a single comment, not
                    at someone trying to gain information to hepl them.

                    --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                    > Talk about attitude. Wow!!!
                    >
                    > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:they is a
                    > giant leap from a one time injection to
                    > beating goldfish around inside an acrylic shoe
                    > everytime you take a step, and an even greater leap
                    > to
                    > compare a fish to a large mamal with a large brain
                    > that absolutely feels pain in the same manner as
                    > humans do. how about we leave the politics to a
                    > political forum and stick to freaking fish in here!
                    >
                    > --- j.pascavage@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > In the last twenty years or so, Goldfish, placed
                    > > living, in womens high-heels was outlawed as
                    > cruel.
                    > > Feeding calves for veal tenderizing, nothing but
                    > > milk, so they developed soft, tender muscles is
                    > > still the rule as far as I know. On top of that,
                    > > keeping them immobilized in stalls too small to
                    > > allow movement (also to prevent toughening the
                    > > muscles) is the rule. PLUS, they tend to have to
                    > > live in the resultant diarhea.
                    > > Feeding Cattle carnivore-food (meat and blood,
                    > > yes, blood) to bulk-up for profit has been the
                    > rule,
                    > > and the cattles' stomachs are'nt evolved to handle
                    > > it.. That causes ulcers in the cattles' stomachs,
                    > > which necessitates the use of antibiotics to
                    > handle
                    > > the resultant infection/infection potential. It's
                    > > been said the antibiotics are shoveled into their
                    > > food. That's economics, and national/family
                    > values,
                    > > along with acid-bathing fish to facilitate
                    > injecting
                    > > dye to gild the lily. Bush and Kerry don't seem to
                    > > be leading into that consumer inventory.
                    > > Joe P
                    > >
                    > > -------------- Original message --------------
                    > > But it isn't just extremists saying it. Still, I
                    > > will concede this to you, I have not found any
                    > Ph.D
                    > > (like I would trust them on this topic anyway) say
                    > > the process is bad, and I have never read about it
                    > > in books. I haven't heard from anyone involved in
                    > > the process, and don't know where to look for
                    > > information about dying from the people who do it.
                    > I
                    > > will even agree that the pain experienced is not
                    > the
                    > > major reason to oppose it because similar things
                    > are
                    > > done when fish are placed into tanks going through
                    > > the initial cycle.
                    > > There are many stores that refuse to sell them,
                    > but
                    > > there are also many that do. I have never come
                    > > across someone who challenged the fact that
                    > painted
                    > > fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue. Now
                    > > that I have had time to think about it, maybe it
                    > > would be a good idea to do some real looking into
                    > > the matter. Do you happen to have a web site for a
                    > > company that produces such fish so I could check
                    > > their information? A wise man once warned against
                    > > judging, so maybe it would be a good idea to at
                    > > least hear from the other side. :)
                    > > Patrick N.
                    > > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                    > > Nitrogen Cycle:
                    > >
                    > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                    > > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5
                    > glolights,
                    > > 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                    > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                    > 2
                    > > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female
                    > betta,
                    > > and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this
                    > > setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                    > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                    > > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                    > > swords.
                    > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                    > > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
                    > > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                    > > -------Original Message-------
                    > > wow, you mean that pet extremists can write
                    > whatever
                    > > they want?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                    > >
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                    > >
                    >
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                    > >
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                    > >
                    >
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                    > >
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                    > > Terms of Service.
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3939 From: paul helms Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: Algae, an interesting challenge/Paul.
                    read a little more carefully....did not call you a
                    name, but stated a type of attitude

                    --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                    > At least I didn't resort to calling names.
                    >
                    >
                    > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                    > exactly the smart ass jerk attitude that was
                    > referenced before. people are here for advice, not
                    > to
                    > be reemed by you. offer help or shut up!
                    > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Algae is a one celled plant, except for blue green
                    > > algae which is actually a bacteria that acts like
                    > an
                    > > algae it is all the same in the end. Algae can
                    > only
                    > > exist because there is excess nutrients in the
                    > tank.
                    > > Nutrients are: light, fish waste, uneaten food,
                    > dead
                    > > plants.fertilizer etc. Reoccurring algae is just a
                    > > symptom of another problem. Its called apathy. It
                    > > will keep coming back until you decide to learn
                    > the
                    > > right way to deal with it. If this seems like too
                    > > much work, give the fish back to the LFS, drain
                    > the
                    > > tank and raise hamsters. Aquariums make excellent
                    > > habitats for hamsters. Or start by putting your
                    > > lights on a timer, try to figure out where the
                    > > excess nutrients are coming from. The game plan is
                    > > to out compete the algae for the nutrients. Of
                    > > course this is much harder to do with plastic
                    > plants
                    > > and shipwrecks and divers and treasure chests with
                    > > bubbles coming out. The Chinese algae eater very
                    > > rarely eats algae, the flying fox will keep the
                    > > glass clean, the true sae will eat
                    > > the brown algae. Wal Mart doesn't know the
                    > > difference.and doesn't care. My point here is get
                    > > serious or live with the problem.
                    > >
                    > > Harry
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3940 From: snowflakerlw Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: sick fish
                    HI I have a black fin shark that has white spot on him just got him
                    last week what do I do Snowflakerlw
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3941 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: sick fish
                    This is Ich.

                    Do a water change, increase the tempr to 82'F and add
                    the medicine.

                    There are several medications and preventatives
                    available including Super Ich by Aquatronics and
                    Maracyn and Maracyn-Two by Mardel Laboratories.

                    For more details check this below.

                    http://freshaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fishdoc.co.uk%2Fdisease%2Fclinicalsigns.htm

                    Most of the fish diseases can be avoided by regular
                    water changes and less feeding.

                    Hope this helps...SuNnY !

                    --- snowflakerlw <snowflakerlw@...> wrote:

                    > HI I have a black fin shark that has white spot on
                    > him just got him
                    > last week what do I do Snowflakerlw
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    =====




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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3942 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/2/2004
                    Subject: Re: sick fish
                    it could be a fungus too, particularly if it's one spot. can you be
                    more specific about the spot?
                    On Aug 3, 2004, at 2:52 AM, sunil kamath wrote:

                    > This is Ich.
                    >
                    > Do a water change, increase the tempr to 82'F and add
                    > the medicine.
                    >
                    > There are several medications and preventatives
                    > available including Super Ich by Aquatronics and
                    > Maracyn and Maracyn-Two by Mardel Laboratories.
                    >
                    > For more details check this below.
                    >
                    > http://freshaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?
                    > site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fishdoc.co.uk%2Fdisease%2Fclinicalsigns.htm
                    >
                    > Most of the fish diseases can be avoided by regular
                    > water changes and less feeding.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps...SuNnY !
                    >
                    > --- snowflakerlw <snowflakerlw@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > HI I have a black fin shark that has white spot on
                    > > him  just got him
                    > > last week what do I do Snowflakerlw
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > =====
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3943 From: simonsmommy0117@aol.com Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: crayfish??
                    What types of fish can crayfish be kept with, I have no intentions of putting them with fish, but IM curious!
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3944 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: Re: crayfish??
                    just about anything, so long as it's a peaceful crayfish and the fish
                    aren't too small or slow.
                    amalthea
                    On Aug 3, 2004, at 3:04 AM, simonsmommy0117@... wrote:

                    > What types of fish can crayfish be kept with, I have no intentions of
                    > putting them with fish, but IM curious!
                    >
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3945 From: Lynn Whitaker Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: Re: sick fish
                    it is on the side its 3 spots it look like it is on the tail to snowflakerlw

                    amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                    it could be a fungus too, particularly if it's one spot. can you be
                    more specific about the spot?
                    On Aug 3, 2004, at 2:52 AM, sunil kamath wrote:

                    > This is Ich.
                    >
                    > Do a water change, increase the tempr to 82'F and add
                    > the medicine.
                    >
                    > There are several medications and preventatives
                    > available including Super Ich by Aquatronics and
                    > Maracyn and Maracyn-Two by Mardel Laboratories.
                    >
                    > For more details check this below.
                    >
                    > http://freshaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?
                    > site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fishdoc.co.uk%2Fdisease%2Fclinicalsigns.htm
                    >
                    > Most of the fish diseases can be avoided by regular
                    > water changes and less feeding.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps...SuNnY !
                    >
                    > --- snowflakerlw wrote:
                    >
                    > > HI I have a black fin shark that has white spot on
                    > > him  just got him
                    > > last week what do I do Snowflakerlw
                    > >
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                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3946 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: Another Sick Fish
                    Hey,
                     
                    I am also looking for advice on a sick fish. I have a yellowish gourami and over the last 24hrs i have noticed that it is not swimming around much, is staying almost all the time right at the top of the tank and won't eat anything. It also seems to have darkened a lot in colour with it's back almost resembling a tiger with black stripes coming through. Any suggestions on what could be happening and what i can do to help it???
                     
                    Steve
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3947 From: questnjurny Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: Re: dyed fish
                    Fish are still animals! And that I don't have a problem with...how
                    else would I get fish! :) I know this because I used to work in a
                    pet store, maybe their policies have changed, but we did not carry
                    anything, just food/supplies and Hagen would not let us carry their
                    products. Like I said, this was about 7 years ago, so maybe policies
                    have changed.

                    Carly

                    > carly,
                    > you write quite eloquently, and no one should take
                    > your post in the wrong way, but i do have to CORRECT
                    > you on one matter. Hagen does not sell exclusively to
                    > stores who carry animals. that information is 100%
                    > incorrect and i have no idea where you got it. i am
                    > only saying something because hagen makes very good
                    > quality products, and i don't want anyone with your
                    > beliefs to shy away from them over false information.
                    > i work in a small aquarium shop in california, we do
                    > not carry anything but fish, and we do sell hagen
                    > products, including filters, air pumps, heaters,
                    > decorations, etc. no reptiles, no small animals, no
                    > birds, no domestic animals. we only carry fresh and
                    > salt water fish.
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3948 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: Happy in a 10-gallon?
                    I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                    tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon. Its uninhabited now, I'm
                    waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                    population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                    help...unsure how long it will take?

                    Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                    happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                    like a 10-gallon home? Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                    crayfish would be happy? Any suggestions are appreciated.
                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3949 From: Patrick Date: 8/3/2004
                    Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
                    Attachments :
                          What about a school of 5-10 smaller tetras, glolights, neons, cardinals, lemons, etc.  Just 10 of one species or 5 each of two species. 
                       
                      Patrick N.
                       
                      Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                      -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                      -------Original Message-------
                      I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                      tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon.  Its uninhabited now, I'm
                      waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                      population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                      help...unsure how long it will take?

                      Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                      happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                      like a 10-gallon home?  Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                      crayfish would be happy?  Any suggestions are appreciated.
                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3950 From: bryants4god Date: 8/3/2004
                      Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
                      Snails are fun, if you have a bubble bar they are actually entertaining.
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: robdar4609 [mailto:robdar4609@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 1:07 PM
                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Happy in a 10-gallon?

                      I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                      tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon.  Its uninhabited now, I'm
                      waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                      population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                      help...unsure how long it will take?

                      Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                      happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                      like a 10-gallon home?  Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                      crayfish would be happy?  Any suggestions are appreciated.



                              



                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3951 From: Patrick Date: 8/3/2004
                      Subject: Re: sick fish
                      Attachments :
                            The only truly safe way to treat a disease when you aren't sure exactly what it is is to raise the temperature to 82-85° and add salt.  Ich meds are nice if it is ich, but if it isn't it will just cause extra stress.  It is best to use about 1 tablespoon of pickling or kosher salt per 5 gallons of water (not the aquarium salt unless you like spending 4 times the price for the same thing :).  Add it slowly, but do a water change before adding it.  Don't add more salt unless you do a water change.  When you do a water change, do it in multiples of 5 gallons, then it will be easier to add 1 tbs of salt with each 5 gallons you replace. :)
                         
                        Patrick N.
                         
                        Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                        -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        Date: 08/03/04 02:26:10
                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] sick fish
                         
                        it is on the side its 3 spots it look like it is on the tail to snowflakerlw
                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3952 From: Patrick Date: 8/3/2004
                        Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                        Attachments :
                          Hey! :)
                              Have you tested ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels?  What size is the tank and what else is with it?  Gouramis darken when they are stressed (not emotional stress, physical stress) or in attack or breeding. 
                           
                          Patrick N.
                           
                          Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                          -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                          -------Original Message-------
                          Hey,
                           
                          I am also looking for advice on a sick fish. I have a yellowish gourami and over the last 24hrs i have noticed that it is not swimming around much, is staying almost all the time right at the top of the tank and won't eat anything. It also seems to have darkened a lot in colour with it's back almost resembling a tiger with black stripes coming through. Any suggestions on what could be happening and what i can do to help it???
                           
                          Steve
                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3953 From: questnjurny Date: 8/3/2004
                          Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
                          I find myself with a spare 10gal as well right now, got a 10 with all
                          the parts and a plain 15gal at a flea market for $15...couldn't pass
                          it by! Anyways, I already have a 10 with a few platies and a betta in
                          it, so was trying to come up with somehting to put in this new one.
                          Many people suggested to me that 4 dwarf puffers (they are
                          freshwater!)would be great in a 10, so I am in the process of setting
                          it up adn am about to head to the lfs so see if they can order some in
                          for me. (As well as doing a little more research on these guys) I am
                          saving the 15 to grow up some baby goldfish from the pond until they
                          are big enough to give away.

                          Anyways, the dwarf puffers might be another idea for you!

                          Carly

                          > I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                          > tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon. Its uninhabited now, I'm
                          > waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                          > population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                          > help...unsure how long it will take?
                          >
                          > Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                          > happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                          > like a 10-gallon home? Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                          > crayfish would be happy? Any suggestions are appreciated.
                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3954 From: harry perry Date: 8/3/2004
                          Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
                          I use 10 gal tanks as a species tank. I like the idea of being able to adjust the water quickly, PH etc. I have one with a pair of neon Blue Dwarf Rainbows, another with a pair of Bosmani Rainbows, a third is completely established and waiting for my Badis Siamensis from Aquabid. I use a 10 gal for breeding Gouramis and Bettas. I have one that I am currently setting up for Dwarf seahorses. Also I keep a 30 gal. high to remove parents from fry.
                           
                          Harry

                          questnjurny <questnjurny@...> wrote:
                          I find myself with a spare 10gal as well right now, got a 10 with all
                          the parts and a plain 15gal at a flea market for $15...couldn't pass
                          it by!  Anyways, I already have a 10 with a few platies and a betta in
                          it, so was trying to come up with somehting to put in this new one.
                          Many people suggested to me that 4 dwarf puffers (they are
                          freshwater!)would be great in a 10, so I am in the process of setting
                          it up adn am about to head to the lfs so see if they can order some in
                          for me. (As well as doing a little more research on these guys) I am
                          saving the 15 to grow up some baby goldfish from the pond until they
                          are big enough to give away. 

                          Anyways, the dwarf puffers might be another idea for you!

                          Carly

                          > I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                          > tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon.  Its uninhabited now, I'm
                          > waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                          > population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                          > help...unsure how long it will take?
                          >
                          > Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                          > happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                          > like a 10-gallon home?  Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                          > crayfish would be happy?  Any suggestions are appreciated.



                                  




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                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3955 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/3/2004
                          Subject: Re: sick fish
                          In a message dated 8/3/2004 2:52:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sunnyvks@... writes:

                          Do a water change, increase the tempr to 82'F and add
                          the medicine.

                          There are several medications and preventatives
                          available including Super Ich by Aquatronics and
                          Maracyn and Maracyn-Two by Mardel Laboratories

                          Don't forget to remove the carbon from your filter before adding the medication to the water!

                          Another Ick medicine (that I have in my fish supplies, but have never had to use *knocks wood*) is Jungle Labs Ick Clear. They are tablets that you drop into the aquarium water, one tablet for each ten gallons of water in your aquarium. This package says that you don't have to raise the water temp, but I'm guessing it's just with this particular type of Ick medicine.
                          Erin
                          CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                          ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                          my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3956 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/3/2004
                          Subject: Re: sick fish
                          In a message dated 8/3/2004 3:25:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, snowflakerlw@... writes:

                          it is on the side its 3 spots it look like it is on the tail to

                          Do the white spots look like sugar crystals, or do they look more like fuzzy moldy white spots?

                          Ich looks like "white sugar-like crystals on fins or body of fish".

                          Fungus is a "white or grey cottony growth or patches on any part of fish"
                          Erin
                          CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                          ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                          my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3957 From: paul helms Date: 8/3/2004
                          Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                          sounds stressed out, at least that explains the
                          coloration. just make sure that nothing else is
                          picking at him/her.


                          --- Steve Pomas <stevepomas@...> wrote:

                          > Hey,
                          >
                          > I am also looking for advice on a sick fish. I have
                          > a yellowish gourami and over the last 24hrs i have
                          > noticed that it is not swimming around much, is
                          > staying almost all the time right at the top of the
                          > tank and won't eat anything. It also seems to have
                          > darkened a lot in colour with it's back almost
                          > resembling a tiger with black stripes coming
                          > through. Any suggestions on what could be happening
                          > and what i can do to help it???
                          >
                          > Steve
                          >





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                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 3958 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/3/2004
                          Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                          Attachments :
                            Thanx Patrick,
                             
                            The tank is around 55 gallons i believe. It has a couple of silver sharks and two little cat fish with it. All the levels are good except that the ph is slightly high.....could this be the prob??
                            steve
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Patrick
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:36 AM
                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another Sick Fish

                            Hey! :)
                                Have you tested ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels?  What size is the tank and what else is with it?  Gouramis darken when they are stressed (not emotional stress, physical stress) or in attack or breeding. 
                             
                            Patrick N.
                             
                            Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                            -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                            -------Original Message-------
                            Hey,
                             
                            I am also looking for advice on a sick fish. I have a yellowish gourami and over the last 24hrs i have noticed that it is not swimming around much, is staying almost all the time right at the top of the tank and won't eat anything. It also seems to have darkened a lot in colour with it's back almost resembling a tiger with black stripes coming through. Any suggestions on what could be happening and what i can do to help it???
                             
                            Steve


                                    



                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3959 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/3/2004
                            Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                            Thanx Paul....
                             
                            I don't think it is stressed coz it is much bigger than the other fish but i will keep a closer eye on it.
                            steve
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: paul helms
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another Sick Fish

                            sounds stressed out, at least that explains the
                            coloration.  just make sure that nothing else is
                            picking at him/her.


                            --- Steve Pomas <stevepomas@...> wrote:

                            > Hey,
                            >
                            > I am also looking for advice on a sick fish. I have
                            > a yellowish gourami and over the last 24hrs i have
                            > noticed that it is not swimming around much, is
                            > staying almost all the time right at the top of the
                            > tank and won't eat anything. It also seems to have
                            > darkened a lot in colour with it's back almost
                            > resembling a tiger with black stripes coming
                            > through. Any suggestions on what could be happening
                            > and what i can do to help it???
                            >
                            > Steve
                            >



                                 
                                       
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                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3960 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/4/2004
                            Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
                            I second the motion for dwarf puffers! They are very cute fishes! I do, however, hope you have a source of live snails as it is their main and favorite food. I haven't been able to train mine to eat pellets and have started resorting to asking fellow aquarists for snails! :-)
                             
                            Dwarf pencilfishes are also a good choice if you want low-maintenance pets for your 10 gal. There are also several aquarium shrimps that you can put in there. I prefer small fishes and also recommend a pair of blue rams or honey gouramis or flagfishes, a lone male betta or paradise gourami or dwarf botia, a small shoal (5-8 fishes)of neons or white cloud minnows, dwarf corydoras, otocinclus, bumblebee gobies, harlequin rasboras, pygmy barbs, cherry barbs, kuhli loaches...
                             
                            Rod


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                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3961 From: harry perry Date: 8/4/2004
                            Subject: Dwarf Puffers
                             
                            Harry


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                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 3962 From: Patrick Date: 8/4/2004
                            Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                            Attachments :
                                  Hi, Steve.  If pH is between 6 and 8, it is ok.  Like Paul said, it is probably because of some type of stress, if not water conditions, it could be lots of things.  It could be scared of the light, or the smaller fish.  Are silver sharks Balas?  I think they are, so they are fast moving fish.  That might be enough to "worry" them. 
                               
                              Patrick N.
                               
                              Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                              -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                              -------Original Message-------
                               
                              Date: 08/04/04 01:13:35
                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another Sick Fish
                               
                              Thanx Patrick,
                               
                              The tank is around 55 gallons i believe. It has a couple of silver sharks and two little cat fish with it. All the levels are good except that the ph is slightly high.....could this be the prob??
                              steve
                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3963 From: questnjurny Date: 8/4/2004
                              Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
                              One thing that I noticed ont hat site which is different from every
                              person I have talked to and every site I have been on is that they ARE
                              aggressive fish, not peaceful and suitable for a community tank as
                              this site implies. As well, they have been known to eat Amano shrimp!
                              Just thought I would throw out what I have found as well!

                              A place with excellent information is http://www.dwarfpuffers.com
                              Carly

                              > Go to http://www.azgardens.com/misc_fish.php
                              >
                              > Harry
                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3964 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/4/2004
                              Subject: Re: 10 gallon tanks
                              My ten gallon is my "big" tank right now, and I keep a 2.5 for my hospice/ quarantine tank (easier to take charcoal out of that filter, my filter in the 10 g has cartridge with charcoal and mechanical media combined). There are lots of fish okay for that size tank!!! I made a list at home that was a full page long in a spiral notebook. A lot depends on your water conditions - pH and GH levels - and whether you want live plants or not. I am having more trouble finding small enough plants, than appropriate sized fish... all of my plants have outgrown my tank. So now I am going to get a 29 gallon, too...

                              Audrey

                              Message: 2
                              Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:06:44 -0000
                              From: "robdar4609" <robdar4609@...>
                              Subject: Happy in a 10-gallon?

                              I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                              tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon. Its uninhabited now, I'm
                              waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                              population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                              help...unsure how long it will take?

                              Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                              happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                              like a 10-gallon home? Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                              crayfish would be happy? Any suggestions are appreciated.
                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3965 From: paul helms Date: 8/4/2004
                              Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
                              what state are you in? if you are local to me i'll
                              send you snails....lol

                              --- "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                              wrote:

                              > I second the motion for dwarf puffers! They are very
                              > cute fishes! I do, however, hope you have a source
                              > of live snails as it is their main and favorite
                              > food. I haven't been able to train mine to eat
                              > pellets and have started resorting to asking fellow
                              > aquarists for snails! :-)
                              >
                              > Dwarf pencilfishes are also a good choice if you
                              > want low-maintenance pets for your 10 gal. There are
                              > also several aquarium shrimps that you can put in
                              > there. I prefer small fishes and also recommend a
                              > pair of blue rams or honey gouramis or flagfishes, a
                              > lone male betta or paradise gourami or dwarf botia,
                              > a small shoal (5-8 fishes)of neons or white cloud
                              > minnows, dwarf corydoras, otocinclus, bumblebee
                              > gobies, harlequin rasboras, pygmy barbs, cherry
                              > barbs, kuhli loaches...
                              >
                              > Rod
                              >
                              >
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                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3966 From: paul helms Date: 8/4/2004
                              Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                              size is not really a factor here, smaller fish have no
                              problem picking on larger fish, or chasing them
                              around.
                              but hopefully that is not the problem.


                              --- Steve Pomas <stevepomas@...> wrote:

                              > Thanx Paul....
                              >
                              > I don't think it is stressed coz it is much bigger
                              > than the other fish but i will keep a closer eye on
                              > it.
                              > steve
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: paul helms
                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:17 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                              > Another Sick Fish
                              >
                              >
                              > sounds stressed out, at least that explains the
                              > coloration. just make sure that nothing else is
                              > picking at him/her.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- Steve Pomas <stevepomas@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Hey,
                              > >
                              > > I am also looking for advice on a sick fish. I
                              > have
                              > > a yellowish gourami and over the last 24hrs i
                              > have
                              > > noticed that it is not swimming around much, is
                              > > staying almost all the time right at the top of
                              > the
                              > > tank and won't eat anything. It also seems to
                              > have
                              > > darkened a lot in colour with it's back almost
                              > > resembling a tiger with black stripes coming
                              > > through. Any suggestions on what could be
                              > happening
                              > > and what i can do to help it???
                              > >
                              > > Steve
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 3967 From: Steve Pomas Date: 8/4/2004
                              Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                              Attachments :
                                Patrick,
                                 
                                This idea of it being stressed seems to be the main suggestion. I have a spare tank that is just sitting around atm, so i might set it up and put the gourami on his own for a bit and see if he improves. I'll let you know how it goes.
                                steve
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Patrick
                                Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 3:00 AM
                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another Sick Fish

                                    Hi, Steve.  If pH is between 6 and 8, it is ok.  Like Paul said, it is probably because of some type of stress, if not water conditions, it could be lots of things.  It could be scared of the light, or the smaller fish.  Are silver sharks Balas?  I think they are, so they are fast moving fish.  That might be enough to "worry" them. 
                                 
                                Patrick N.
                                 
                                Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                -------Original Message-------
                                 
                                Date: 08/04/04 01:13:35
                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another Sick Fish
                                 
                                Thanx Patrick,
                                 
                                The tank is around 55 gallons i believe. It has a couple of silver sharks and two little cat fish with it. All the levels are good except that the ph is slightly high.....could this be the prob??
                                steve


                                        



                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3968 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 8/4/2004
                                Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 8/7/2004, 6:30 pm
                                Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                Saturday August 7, 2004
                                6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.

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                                Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                Notes:
                                Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3969 From: paul helms Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: Re: Another Sick Fish
                                don't forget to fully cycle the tank before you do
                                that , or you may cause him more stress than he is
                                under now.

                                --- Steve Pomas <stevepomas@...> wrote:

                                > Patrick,
                                >
                                > This idea of it being stressed seems to be the main
                                > suggestion. I have a spare tank that is just sitting
                                > around atm, so i might set it up and put the gourami
                                > on his own for a bit and see if he improves. I'll
                                > let you know how it goes.
                                > steve
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Patrick
                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 3:00 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                > Another Sick Fish
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi, Steve. If pH is between 6 and 8, it
                                > is ok. Like Paul said, it is probably because of
                                > some type of stress, if not water conditions, it
                                > could be lots of things. It could be scared of the
                                > light, or the smaller fish. Are silver sharks
                                > Balas? I think they are, so they are fast moving
                                > fish. That might be enough to "worry" them.
                                >
                                > Patrick N.
                                >
                                > Click the link below to learn about the
                                > cycle.
                                > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                >
                                > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                                > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5
                                > glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
                                > tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy,
                                > 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one
                                > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                > keepers!
                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                > lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and
                                > amazon swords.
                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                > Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite
                                > 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                > -------Original Message-------
                                >
                                > From:
                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: 08/04/04 01:13:35
                                > To:
                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re:
                                > [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another Sick Fish
                                >
                                > Thanx Patrick,
                                >
                                > The tank is around 55 gallons i believe. It
                                > has a couple of silver sharks and two little cat
                                > fish with it. All the levels are good except that
                                > the ph is slightly high.....could this be the prob??
                                > steve
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                > ADVERTISEMENT
                                >
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                                >
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                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3970 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?
                                -dwarf gourami
                                -female bettas
                                -single male betta and some sort of small bottom feeder
                                -kuhli loach species tanks
                                -killies
                                -WCMMs
                                -dwarf puffers and otos
                                -livebearers, Endler's or guppies perhaps
                                -bumblebee gobies
                                -school of barbs or rasboras



                                If you're interested in cichlids check out this link for 10g ideas
                                http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_10g.php





                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "robdar4609" <robdar4609@...>

                                > I recently set up a 29-gallon tank and plan on making it a community
                                > tank...which leaves me with my 10-gallon. Its uninhabited now, I'm
                                > waiting for the Nitrites to go down after its recent "over-
                                > population"...hoping my once a week 20% water changes will
                                > help...unsure how long it will take?
                                >
                                > Id like to put something in this 10-gallon that will be
                                > happy...seems most fish like a bigger tank..are there loners that
                                > like a 10-gallon home? Or maybe some other kind of creature, like a
                                > crayfish would be happy? Any suggestions are appreciated.
                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3971 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: Dwarf Puffers
                                Definitely fin nippers. I've never kept amano but mine will eat ghost
                                shrimp. Only tankmates I've found suitable are otos and bumblebee gobies.


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "questnjurny" <questnjurny@...>


                                > One thing that I noticed ont hat site which is different from every
                                > person I have talked to and every site I have been on is that they ARE
                                > aggressive fish, not peaceful and suitable for a community tank as
                                > this site implies. As well, they have been known to eat Amano shrimp!
                                > Just thought I would throw out what I have found as well!
                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3972 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: breeding: differently colored species
                                I've only kept platies and guppies-not swordtails-but color doesn't matter,
                                only in regards to color of fry.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "joequality1980" <crazy.joe.walcek@...>

                                > One of my swordtails recently lost his last ladyfriend. I want to
                                > get him more femails, but I havent found any that are of his
                                > particular color. Does that matter? Will they find happiness if the
                                > swordtails are colored differently?
                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3973 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                Just wondering what qualifies them as 'extremists'?


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>


                                > wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                                > they want?
                                > --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > http://www.deathbydyeing.org/home.htm
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=72
                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3974 From: paul helms Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                merely that anyone can start a web site and say
                                anything that they want.

                                --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                > Just wondering what qualifies them as 'extremists'?
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>
                                >
                                >
                                > > wow, you mean that pet extremists can write
                                > whatever
                                > > they want?
                                > > --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > http://www.deathbydyeing.org/home.htm
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=72
                                >
                                >
                                >





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                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 3975 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
                                Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                Attachments :
                                      I'm still looking for someone other than an internet selling service proud enough of their product to have a site showing how they make dyed fish, by the way.  I would love to see their site, similar to the site put up for glowing danios. :) 
                                   
                                  Patrick N.
                                   
                                  Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                  -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3976 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Stocked Too Fast?
                                  I set up my 29 gallon 2 weeks ago, 3 days after I set it up I put
                                  two very hardy danios in there...testing the water each day, all
                                  looked great, so 3 days later I put in my pleco and 4 small black
                                  skirt tetras...3 days later right before I was going to do a 20%
                                  water change, I see two fo the tetras died..my water test
                                  showed 'stress' in teh nitrite level...the other two tetras don't
                                  looks good...I thought these were hardy fish like the danios, who
                                  are hyper as ever...

                                  Any advice on next steps and hwo long to wair before thinking of
                                  adding more fish?
                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3977 From: harry perry Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                  Sounds like you did what we all do. Buy fish before the tank has cycled. What is your substrate, live plants? When niTrites and amonia reach 0 your tank is ready for more fish maybe. What is the size of these fish full grown? Some plecos reach 14". Feed once a day, 30% water change weekly. Relax and read everything you can on the subject.  
                                  "Google" the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. With more info about your set-up we could help more.
                                   
                                  Harry
                                   

                                  robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:
                                  I set up my 29 gallon 2 weeks ago, 3 days after I set it up I put
                                  two very hardy danios in there...testing the water each day, all
                                  looked great, so 3 days later I put in my pleco and 4 small black
                                  skirt tetras...3 days later right before I was going to do a 20%
                                  water change, I see two fo the tetras died..my water test
                                  showed 'stress' in teh nitrite level...the other two tetras don't
                                  looks good...I thought these were hardy fish like the danios, who
                                  are hyper as ever...

                                  Any advice on next steps and hwo long to wair before thinking of
                                  adding more fish?





                                          




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                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3978 From: harry perry Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                  Sounds like you did what we all do. Buy fish before the tank has cycled. What is your substrate, live plants? When niTrites and amonia reach 0 your tank is ready for more fish maybe. What is the size of these fish full grown? Some plecos reach 14". Feed once a day, 30% water change weekly. Relax and read everything you can on the subject.  
                                  "Google" the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. With more info about your set-up we could help more.
                                   
                                  Harry
                                   

                                  robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:
                                  I set up my 29 gallon 2 weeks ago, 3 days after I set it up I put
                                  two very hardy danios in there...testing the water each day, all
                                  looked great, so 3 days later I put in my pleco and 4 small black
                                  skirt tetras...3 days later right before I was going to do a 20%
                                  water change, I see two fo the tetras died..my water test
                                  showed 'stress' in teh nitrite level...the other two tetras don't
                                  looks good...I thought these were hardy fish like the danios, who
                                  are hyper as ever...

                                  Any advice on next steps and hwo long to wair before thinking of
                                  adding more fish?





                                          




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                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3979 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                  i don't think you're going to find anyone "proud" of dying fish. the
                                  glofish are definitely something to be proud of. they're a really cool
                                  discovery that will actually help the environment one day. dipping a
                                  fish in acid before dipping it in dye, at the very least, is like
                                  piercing a baby's ears. completely ridiculous, unnecessary, and not at
                                  all requested by the victim.
                                  amalthea
                                  On Aug 5, 2004, at 12:31 PM, Patrick wrote:

                                  >     I'm still looking for someone other than an internet selling
                                  > service proud enough of their product to have a site showing how they
                                  > make dyed fish, by the way.  I would love to see their site, similar
                                  > to the site put up for glowing danios. :) 
                                  >  
                                  > Patrick N.
                                  >  
                                  > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                  > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                  > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                                  >
                                  >
                                  http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                  Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                  Adornments....
                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3980 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                  I've never seen any of these fish..
                                   
                                   I have some pink ones.. tetras
                                  some blue ones also tetras .. 
                                   & Green one.. a tetra too..
                                  are these what your atalking about..
                                   where I bought them no one said
                                  anything about dyeing fish ..
                                  Linda M.
                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3981 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                  they don't ever say they're dyed. but if you ever buy a freshwater fish
                                  that looks "easter egg like" in pinks, blues and purples, they are
                                  dyed. there are very few non cichlid freshwater fish that look this
                                  way. while some tetras, like neons and cardinals do come in amazing
                                  colors. they are clearly natural. the dyed ones tend to look gaudy and
                                  most often the color will fade.
                                  amalthea
                                  On Aug 5, 2004, at 2:42 PM, LL314158@... wrote:

                                  > I've never seen any of these fish..
                                  >  
                                  >  I have some pink ones.. tetras
                                  > some blue ones also tetras .. 
                                  >  & Green one.. a tetra too..
                                  > are these what your atalking about..
                                  >  where I bought them no one said
                                  > anything about dyeing fish ..
                                  > Linda M.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >         
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                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3982 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                  mine are all tetras..the pink. blue & green..
                                  have some orangey ones too..
                                  & some orange w/black stripes.. all are tetras ..
                                   
                                  so I guess I will just keep them 
                                  & see what happens ..
                                  I'm not going to do anything w/them..
                                  just because they maybe dyed ..
                                  Linda M.
                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3983 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                  well, once you have them, there's nothing that can be done anyway. it's
                                  not like you should kill them. it's just something to bear in mind when
                                  shopping for new fish.
                                  amalthea
                                  On Aug 5, 2004, at 3:22 PM, LL314158@... wrote:

                                  > mine are all tetras..the pink. blue & green..
                                  > have some orangey ones too..
                                  > & some orange w/black stripes.. all are tetras ..
                                  >  
                                  > so I guess I will just keep them 
                                  > & see what happens ..
                                  > I'm not going to do anything w/them..
                                  > just because they maybe dyed ..
                                  > Linda M.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                  Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3984 From: AQUARIUMFISH Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Type of Lighting?? Questions
                                   
                                   Hi Group
                                   
                                   
                                  Ok I am stupid here, but I should know this and I don't as long as I have had a fish tank, I should know what type of lighting I have.....

                                  I have a 20 gallon freshwater community tank. I have been a hobbyist for over 5 years I know and have had various fish in my tank at one time or another. Right now I have a 4" Stripped Racquel, baby spotted catfish, 5" Pleco, 1 Cherry Barb, 2 blue skirt fish *don't really know their names* and 2 guppies. BTW the Racquel catfish has been with me from the start of my 10 gallon tank back 8 years ago. But I guess catfish can handle pretty much any kind of water conditions.

                                  I want to start putting more fish in my tank but b4 I do I want to add plants first. I need to know what type of lighting I have for the kind of plants that I need and will be adding as to accommodate my fish that I will adding later on after plants are for sure striving.

                                  The current temp on the tank is and has pretty much stayed at 80 * says in the green marking* and I have never really checked all the other stuff but my fish are doing great and are in good health. I have water conditioner, Chlor Out, and Aquarium Salt only when doing water changes which is very rare, water never gets nasty enough. Crystal clear most of the time.

                                  The fish I would like to put in here are as listed.... Sparkling Gourami, Pearl Gourami, Threadfin Rainbow, and more Cherry Barbs. I have gotten the stats on each of the fish I plan on getting as far as the temps and feeding that needs to be... they are all in or around 80 degrees... I have had Pearl Gouramis b4 and the only thing that killed them was jumping out of the tank during feeding Sad ..

                                  I have a heater that's set on 76 degrees hardly ever comes on. I have also had live plants in my tank b4 and they seemed to do really great other than the darn plecos and Gouramis nipping on them. Right now I recently bought some live plants from Petco here where I am, In the Longview area *Gilmer* Texas. A Peacock Fern and a Kyoto ... both about medium sized when fully grown. I also snagged up some bulbs to sprout too.

                                  How would I know if I have the proper lighting for plants if I do order. If I do I will be getting the 24 plants/20 gallon setup that AquariumGarden has.

                                  Sorry ... taking a breath now.. Smile Wanted to get it all in b4 answers start coming thru.

                                  Thanks in advance
                                  Gennifer aka Ivory Kitty or G
                                   
                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 3985 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
                                  Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                  Attachments :
                                    What if they are telling the documented truth?  Or first-hand experience?
                                     
                                    Patrick N.
                                     
                                    Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                    -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                    -------Original Message-------
                                    merely that anyone can start a web site and say
                                    anything that they want.
                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3986 From: Seti Date: 8/5/2004
                                    Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?
                                    Check out this site:

                                    http://faq.thekrib.com/

                                    In the "Your First Aquarium" section, it has great info on setting up
                                    and cycling a tank. In short, it can take 3-4 weeks to cycle a tank
                                    completely, during which time you shouldn't add any more fish besides
                                    the ones you're cycling with (and, FYI, you can also cycle a tank
                                    without fish). Read up all you can on the nitrogen cycle, follow
                                    general recommendations for cycling a tank, and resist the temptation
                                    of adding more fish until your ammonia and nitrites are at 0.

                                    ~~Seti


                                    >
                                    > robdar4609 <robdar4609@y...> wrote:
                                    > I set up my 29 gallon 2 weeks ago, 3 days after I set it up I put
                                    > two very hardy danios in there...testing the water each day, all
                                    > looked great, so 3 days later I put in my pleco and 4 small black
                                    > skirt tetras...3 days later right before I was going to do a 20%
                                    > water change, I see two fo the tetras died..my water test
                                    > showed 'stress' in teh nitrite level...the other two tetras don't
                                    > looks good...I thought these were hardy fish like the danios, who
                                    > are hyper as ever...
                                    >
                                    > Any advice on next steps and hwo long to wair before thinking of
                                    > adding more fish?
                                    >
                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 3987 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
                                    Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                    Attachments :
                                          Exactly, glowing danios are 100% natural, they just merged two natural things to make one natural, genetically altered fish that glows sometimes.  Even CA is thinking about removing the ban on them since they are realizing there is nothing dangerous about them.  If they did get into nature, I don't think they would be any more dangerous than regular zebra fish, only easier to find in the dark.
                                          Painted, Mixed Fruit, or Fruit tetras, Painted Glass Fish, and some Bloody Parrot Cicihlids are all artificially colored.  I would much rather have the White Skirt Tetra, Glass Fish, or non-painted Parrot Fish.  The Parrot fish, which some people have problems with just because it is a hybrid, will grow to be a nice looking fish without color being added to them.  But again, they are not a natural fish because of they way they are created.  The things they do to them make you wonder what they were thinking!  Unicorn and Heart versions made by cutting the fines?  Why?  I personally have no problem with hybrids, but what were they thinking?
                                       
                                      Patrick N.
                                       
                                      Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                      -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                      -------Original Message-------
                                       
                                      Date: 08/05/04 13:35:40
                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: dyed fish
                                       
                                      i don't think you're going to find anyone "proud" of dying fish. the
                                      glofish are definitely something to be proud of. they're a really cool
                                      discovery that will actually help the environment one day. dipping a
                                      fish in acid before dipping it in dye, at the very least, is like
                                      piercing a baby's ears. completely ridiculous, unnecessary, and not at
                                      all requested by the victim.
                                      amalthea
                                      On Aug 5, 2004, at 12:31 PM, Patrick wrote:
                                       
                                      >     I'm still looking for someone other than an internet selling
                                      > service proud enough of their product to have a site showing how they
                                      > make dyed fish, by the way.  I would love to see their site, similar
                                      > to the site put up for glowing danios. :) 
                                      >  
                                      > Patrick N.
                                      >  
                                      > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                      > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                      Adornments....
                                       
                                       
                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 3988 From: Patrick Date: 8/5/2004
                                      Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                      Attachments :
                                            That is true.  I doubt there are many people who fishless cycle their first tank (although those who do should be congratulated for listening to the "crazy people" who told them).  First time fish keepers would probably laugh at you and walk out of the store.  They wouldn't be laughing when they came back for refunds, but they would learn something.  A few dead fish can save hundreds if the store workers use it as a teaching opportunity.
                                         
                                        Patrick N.
                                         
                                        Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                        -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                        -------Original Message-------
                                        Sounds like you did what we all do. Buy fish before the tank has cycled. What is your substrate, live plants? When niTrites and amonia reach 0 your tank is ready for more fish maybe. What is the size of these fish full grown? Some plecos reach 14". Feed once a day, 30% water change weekly. Relax and read everything you can on the subject.  
                                        "Google" the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. With more info about your set-up we could help more.
                                         
                                        Harry
                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3989 From: Angela Date: 8/5/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        Joe,

                                        I commend you!!! It seems you held back alot!! I also want to
                                        thank you for not going into greater detail, since I am eating
                                        dinner while reading the posts!!! LOL

                                        <<will not buy dyed fish, but I do not keep from shopping in my LFS,
                                        even though sell them!! Hey, to each his own!!

                                        Ang




                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                        j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                        > In the last twenty years or so, Goldfish, placed living, in
                                        womens high-heels was outlawed as cruel. Feeding calves for veal
                                        tenderizing, nothing but milk, so they developed soft, tender
                                        muscles is still the rule as far as I know. On top of that, keeping
                                        them immobilized in stalls too small to allow movement (also to
                                        prevent toughening the muscles) is the rule. PLUS, they tend to have
                                        to live in the resultant diarhea.
                                        > Feeding Cattle carnivore-food (meat and blood, yes, blood) to
                                        bulk-up for profit has been the rule, and the cattles' stomachs
                                        are'nt evolved to handle it.. That causes ulcers in the cattles'
                                        stomachs, which necessitates the use of antibiotics to handle the
                                        resultant infection/infection potential. It's been said the
                                        antibiotics are shoveled into their food. That's economics, and
                                        national/family values, along with acid-bathing fish to facilitate
                                        injecting dye to gild the lily. Bush and Kerry don't seem to be
                                        leading into that consumer inventory.
                                        > Joe P
                                        >
                                        > -------------- Original message --------------
                                        > But it isn't just extremists saying it. Still, I will concede this
                                        to you, I have not found any Ph.D (like I would trust them on this
                                        topic anyway) say the process is bad, and I have never read about it
                                        in books. I haven't heard from anyone involved in the process, and
                                        don't know where to look for information about dying from the people
                                        who do it. I will even agree that the pain experienced is not the
                                        major reason to oppose it because similar things are done when fish
                                        are placed into tanks going through the initial cycle.
                                        > There are many stores that refuse to sell them, but there are also
                                        many that do. I have never come across someone who challenged the
                                        fact that painted fish are bad, so I had no choice but to argue. Now
                                        that I have had time to think about it, maybe it would be a good
                                        idea to do some real looking into the matter. Do you happen to have
                                        a web site for a company that produces such fish so I could check
                                        their information? A wise man once warned against judging, so maybe
                                        it would be a good idea to at least hear from the other side. :)
                                        > Patrick N.
                                        > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                        > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                        > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                                        > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3
                                        black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised
                                        guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female
                                        betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new
                                        or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                        java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                        filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                        > wow, you mean that pet extremists can write whatever
                                        > they want?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3990 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        In a message dated 8/5/2004 12:32:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, americanfishguy@... writes:

                                        similar to the site put up for glowing danios. :)

                                        I still want some of those. I think they look neat. It's just that the ONE store locally to me that sells them, they have puppies and kittens and rabbits and reptiles as well, and their aquariums look murky. Yuck. And of course none of the OTHER lfs want to carry them at all. *sigh* And the one store marked up their price ... GloFish site has suggested retail listed at $5, and this store has them for $10, EACH. And you can't just get one, of course, because they are danios. So I guess I won't get them.

                                        Erin
                                        CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                        ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                        my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3991 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/5/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?
                                        In a message dated 8/5/2004 1:49:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robdar4609@... writes:

                                        testing the water each day, all
                                        looked great, so 3 days later I put in my pleco and 4 small black
                                        skirt tetras...3 days later right before I was going to do a 20%
                                        water change, I see two fo the tetras died..my water test
                                        showed 'stress' in teh nitrite level...the other two tetras don't
                                        looks good...I thought these were hardy fish like the danios, who
                                        are hyper as ever...

                                        Any advice on next steps and hwo long to wair before thinking of
                                        adding more fish?




                                        Your subject line says it ... "stocked too fast". Three days after putting in the danios in, the cycle hadn't completed. Besides which, when adding fish, you want to wait a bit longer than a few days before adding more.

                                        Your tetras probably won't survive the cycle. Keep testing the water daily, and click the link in someone's signature (Patricks??) about the Nitrogen Cycle so you will know when the aquarium is ready for new fish.

                                        Sorry about your loss. It happened to me, too .... I cycled MY tank with three black mollies. Oops.
                                        Erin
                                        CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                        ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3992 From: questnjurny Date: 8/5/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                        It would be nice if the lfs workers told us about the fishless cycle!
                                        When I set up my first tank again (dont' think fishless was thought
                                        of back when I used to have tanks!) I asked about the fishless cycle
                                        and the lfs guys looked at me like i had two heads....think they were
                                        more interested in selling me comets to cycle the tank. I think it
                                        should be a requirement to work in a lfs..."do you know about fishless
                                        cycling" LOL! Would have saved a few goldfish lives here...

                                        Carly

                                        > That is true. I doubt there are many people who fishless cycle
                                        their
                                        > first tank (although those who do should be congratulated for
                                        listening to
                                        > the "crazy people" who told them). First time fish keepers would
                                        probably
                                        > laugh at you and walk out of the store. They wouldn't be laughing
                                        when they
                                        > came back for refunds, but they would learn something. A few dead
                                        fish can
                                        > save hundreds if the store workers use it as a teaching opportunity.
                                        >
                                        > Patrick N.
                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3993 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/5/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        wow! the place near me had them for $3 a piece. i bought a few and
                                        they're cool, but honestly, i think i like my long finned zebra and
                                        leopard danios better. they're nice though, if you can find them and
                                        have a strong light source and they look pretty interesting in black
                                        light.
                                        amalthea
                                        On Aug 5, 2004, at 8:30 PM, Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                                        > In a message dated 8/5/2004 12:32:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                        > americanfishguy@... writes:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > similar to the site put up for glowing danios. :)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I still want some of those. I think they look neat. It's just that
                                        > the ONE store locally to me that sells them, they have puppies and
                                        > kittens and rabbits and reptiles as well, and their aquariums look
                                        > murky. Yuck. And of course none of the OTHER lfs want to carry them at
                                        > all. *sigh* And the one store marked up their price ... GloFish site
                                        > has suggested retail listed at $5, and this store has them for $10,
                                        > EACH. And you can't just get one, of course, because they are danios.
                                        > So I guess I won't get them.
                                        >
                                        > Erin
                                        > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                        > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                        > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                        > my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                        Adornments....
                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3994 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/5/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                        yeah, I have no patiance..I thought waiting a few days was good
                                        enough...now I just have my 2 danios and pleco, all 4 tetras
                                        dies...I also have a live plant (amazon sword) which seems to be
                                        doing fine, it went in the same time the 2 danios did...I just
                                        tested and teh ammonia is still high, shoudl I add Ammo Lock or some
                                        kind of ammonia detox liquid or just let it run its course?

                                        C
                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "questnjurny"
                                        <questnjurny@s...> wrote:
                                        > It would be nice if the lfs workers told us about the fishless
                                        cycle!
                                        > When I set up my first tank again (dont' think fishless was
                                        thought
                                        > of back when I used to have tanks!) I asked about the fishless
                                        cycle
                                        > and the lfs guys looked at me like i had two heads....think they
                                        were
                                        > more interested in selling me comets to cycle the tank. I think it
                                        > should be a requirement to work in a lfs..."do you know about
                                        fishless
                                        > cycling" LOL! Would have saved a few goldfish lives here...
                                        >
                                        > Carly
                                        >
                                        > > That is true. I doubt there are many people who fishless
                                        cycle
                                        > their
                                        > > first tank (although those who do should be congratulated for
                                        > listening to
                                        > > the "crazy people" who told them). First time fish keepers would
                                        > probably
                                        > > laugh at you and walk out of the store. They wouldn't be
                                        laughing
                                        > when they
                                        > > came back for refunds, but they would learn something. A few
                                        dead
                                        > fish can
                                        > > save hundreds if the store workers use it as a teaching
                                        opportunity.
                                        > >
                                        > > Patrick N.
                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3995 From: harry perry Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Robdar4609/Cycle
                                        I would let the tank run it's course. If you use a chemical to"fix" the problem. It might come back.

                                        robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:
                                        yeah, I have no patiance..I thought waiting a few days was good
                                        enough...now I just have my 2 danios and pleco, all 4 tetras
                                        dies...I also have a live plant (amazon sword) which seems to be
                                        doing fine, it went in the same time the 2 danios did...I just
                                        tested and teh ammonia is still high, shoudl I add Ammo Lock or some
                                        kind of ammonia detox liquid or just let it run its course?

                                        C
                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "questnjurny"
                                        <questnjurny@s...> wrote:
                                        > It would be nice if the lfs workers told us about the fishless
                                        cycle!
                                        >    When I set up my first tank again (dont' think fishless was
                                        thought
                                        > of back when I used to have tanks!) I asked about the fishless
                                        cycle
                                        > and the lfs guys looked at me like i had two heads....think they
                                        were
                                        > more interested in selling me comets to cycle the tank.  I think it
                                        > should be a requirement to work in a lfs..."do you know about
                                        fishless
                                        > cycling"  LOL!  Would have saved a few goldfish lives here...
                                        >
                                        > Carly
                                        >
                                        > >     That is true.  I doubt there are many people who fishless
                                        cycle
                                        > their
                                        > > first tank (although those who do should be congratulated for
                                        > listening to
                                        > > the "crazy people" who told them).  First time fish keepers would
                                        > probably
                                        > > laugh at you and walk out of the store.  They wouldn't be
                                        laughing
                                        > when they
                                        > > came back for refunds, but they would learn something.  A few
                                        dead
                                        > fish can
                                        > > save hundreds if the store workers use it as a teaching
                                        opportunity.
                                        > > 
                                        > > Patrick N.



                                                




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3996 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                        you have no idea how many people a week do not believe
                                        me about the fishless cycle, but the majority do
                                        usually come back about a month later with an empty
                                        tank wanting to know how to fix it. lol

                                        --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                        > That is true. I doubt there are many people who
                                        > fishless cycle their
                                        > first tank (although those who do should be
                                        > congratulated for listening to
                                        > the "crazy people" who told them). First time fish
                                        > keepers would probably
                                        > laugh at you and walk out of the store. They
                                        > wouldn't be laughing when they
                                        > came back for refunds, but they would learn
                                        > something. A few dead fish can
                                        > save hundreds if the store workers use it as a
                                        > teaching opportunity.
                                        >
                                        > Patrick N.
                                        >
                                        > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                        > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                        > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                                        > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5
                                        > glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                        > neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home
                                        > raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                        > 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female
                                        > betta, and 1 paradise
                                        > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or
                                        > inexperienced fish
                                        > keepers!
                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                        > 6.4.
                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                        > Sounds like you did what we all do. Buy fish before
                                        > the tank has cycled.
                                        > What is your substrate, live plants? When niTrites
                                        > and amonia reach 0 your
                                        > tank is ready for more fish maybe. What is the size
                                        > of these fish full
                                        > grown? Some plecos reach 14". Feed once a day, 30%
                                        > water change weekly.
                                        > Relax and read everything you can on the subject.
                                        > "Google" the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. With more
                                        > info about your set-up
                                        > we could help more.
                                        >
                                        > Harry




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3997 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        the fruit tetras are not injected with dye, or acid
                                        dipped, but they do swim in dyed water so that it
                                        permiates the cell. i have found these fish to have a
                                        good 4-6 year life span.


                                        --- LL314158@... wrote:

                                        > mine are all tetras..the pink. blue & green..
                                        > have some orangey ones too..
                                        > & some orange w/black stripes.. all are tetras ..
                                        >
                                        > so I guess I will just keep them
                                        > & see what happens ..
                                        > I'm not going to do anything w/them..
                                        > just because they maybe dyed ..
                                        > Linda M.
                                        >




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3998 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does not
                                        benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                        "pretty" is not natural either. it may not be
                                        negative in that the fish are not injured, but it is a
                                        first step in accepting genetic manipulations in all
                                        areas. i am not trying to a take a giant leap here to
                                        designer babies or anything like that, but it will
                                        lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad. these fish are
                                        not cross bred, they are genetically engineered with
                                        the dna of a species taht they could never breed with,
                                        meaning that these fish would neevr exist in the wild,
                                        and should not be put there. they would have little
                                        chance in hiding from predators who would easily track
                                        them at night.


                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                        > i don't think you're going to find anyone "proud" of
                                        > dying fish. the
                                        > glofish are definitely something to be proud of.
                                        > they're a really cool
                                        > discovery that will actually help the environment
                                        > one day. dipping a
                                        > fish in acid before dipping it in dye, at the very
                                        > least, is like
                                        > piercing a baby's ears. completely ridiculous,
                                        > unnecessary, and not at
                                        > all requested by the victim.
                                        > amalthea
                                        > On Aug 5, 2004, at 12:31 PM, Patrick wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > ��� I'm still looking for someone other than
                                        > an�internet selling
                                        > > service�proud enough of their product to have a
                                        > site�showing how they
                                        > > make�dyed fish, by the way.� I would love to see
                                        > their site, similar
                                        > > to the site put�up for glowing danios.�:)�
                                        > > �
                                        > > Patrick N.
                                        > > �
                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                        > >
                                        > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                        > Artful
                                        > Adornments....
                                        >




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 3999 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                        adding live bacteria would be a good addition to
                                        harry's advice. there are several out there. i
                                        personally use stress zyme, others use fritz zyme and
                                        biospira.
                                        --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                        > Sounds like you did what we all do. Buy fish before
                                        > the tank has cycled. What is your substrate, live
                                        > plants? When niTrites and amonia reach 0 your tank
                                        > is ready for more fish maybe. What is the size of
                                        > these fish full grown? Some plecos reach 14". Feed
                                        > once a day, 30% water change weekly. Relax and read
                                        > everything you can on the subject.
                                        > "Google" the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. With more
                                        > info about your set-up we could help more.
                                        >
                                        > Harry
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:
                                        > I set up my 29 gallon 2 weeks ago, 3 days after I
                                        > set it up I put
                                        > two very hardy danios in there...testing the water
                                        > each day, all
                                        > looked great, so 3 days later I put in my pleco and
                                        > 4 small black
                                        > skirt tetras...3 days later right before I was going
                                        > to do a 20%
                                        > water change, I see two fo the tetras died..my water
                                        > test
                                        > showed 'stress' in teh nitrite level...the other two
                                        > tetras don't
                                        > looks good...I thought these were hardy fish like
                                        > the danios, who
                                        > are hyper as ever...
                                        >
                                        > Any advice on next steps and hwo long to wair before
                                        > thinking of
                                        > adding more fish?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4000 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        never said they couldn't be, but where is their proof?

                                        --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                        > What if they are telling the documented truth? Or
                                        > first-hand experience?
                                        >
                                        > Patrick N.
                                        >
                                        > Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                        > Nitrogen Cycle:
                                        > http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html
                                        > -About my tank: 29 gallon tank. I have 5
                                        > glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                        > neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home
                                        > raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                        > 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female
                                        > betta, and 1 paradise
                                        > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or
                                        > inexperienced fish
                                        > keepers!
                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                        > 6.4.
                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                        > merely that anyone can start a web site and say
                                        > anything that they want.




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4001 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        well, yes, but if only for that reason alone, they are not dangerous to
                                        the environment. not only that, they are actually part of a larger
                                        project to protect the environment so that's a positive thing.
                                        amalthea
                                        On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:11 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                        > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does not
                                        > benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                        > "pretty" is not natural either. it may not be
                                        > negative in that the fish are not injured, but it is a
                                        > first step in accepting genetic manipulations in all
                                        > areas. i am not trying to a take a giant leap here to
                                        > designer babies or anything like that, but it will
                                        > lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad. these fish are
                                        > not cross bred, they are genetically engineered with
                                        > the dna of a species taht they could never breed with,
                                        > meaning that these fish would neevr exist in the wild,
                                        > and should not be put there. they would have little
                                        > chance in hiding from predators who would easily track
                                        > them at night.
                                        >
                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                        Adornments....
                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4002 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        how are they going to protect the environment, have
                                        not found anything on that.

                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                        > well, yes, but if only for that reason alone, they
                                        > are not dangerous to
                                        > the environment. not only that, they are actually
                                        > part of a larger
                                        > project to protect the environment so that's a
                                        > positive thing.
                                        > amalthea
                                        > On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:11 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does
                                        > not
                                        > > benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                        > > "pretty" is not natural either. it may not be
                                        > > negative in that the fish are not injured, but it
                                        > is a
                                        > > first step in accepting genetic manipulations in
                                        > all
                                        > > areas. i am not trying to a take a giant leap
                                        > here to
                                        > > designer babies or anything like that, but it will
                                        > > lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad. these fish
                                        > are
                                        > > not cross bred, they are genetically engineered
                                        > with
                                        > > the dna of a species taht they could never breed
                                        > with,
                                        > > meaning that these fish would neevr exist in the
                                        > wild,
                                        > > and should not be put there. they would have
                                        > little
                                        > > chance in hiding from predators who would easily
                                        > track
                                        > > them at night.
                                        > >
                                        > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                        > Artful
                                        > Adornments....
                                        >
                                        >




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4003 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: my last post on dyed fish
                                        i have not found anything stating that fish are dipped
                                        in acid to be dyed. i hae found several non-animal
                                        rights sites that do stipulate that the life span of
                                        injected fish is decreased, and that only 10% retain
                                        color. in addition, everything hat i have found on
                                        the solid color skirts, such as strawberry, blue
                                        berry, purple, red, etc is that they are fed food
                                        containing dye from the time that they hatch, so that
                                        they are fully permiated with the dyes. suppliers
                                        that i have spoken with also stipulate that in
                                        addition to being fed dyed foods, they are also kept
                                        in dyed water in some instances. my main point for
                                        playing devil's advocate here is that new keepers
                                        should not be scared away from fish that they like
                                        because of horror stories that may or may not be true.
                                        i have not found any indications that acid is used,
                                        and from my 15 years of experience, any time that a
                                        fish loses its slime coat, it ends up dead. burning
                                        it off with acid would leave it far to open to
                                        bacterial and parasitic infections for it to be a
                                        financially worth while venture, not to meaantion that
                                        the shear shock of the fish would more than liekley
                                        kill it. As for the store that i work in, we do not
                                        carry the injected fish, only those fed dye or that
                                        swim in dye. they are not harmed by this, and i have
                                        never seen them lost due to a shortened life span,
                                        only to beginners negligence and accidents. all of
                                        the ones that i have kept have lived at least 4 years.
                                        i do agree that the injecting of the fish is inhumane
                                        and uncalled for, but i still think that a little more
                                        complete research should be done before riumors are perpetuated.



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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4004 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        When the first wheel was invented.. it laid the stepping stone for the first
                                        aircraft to be invented. Considering that this genetic manipulation is just
                                        the wheel part of it. Maybe something like this in the future might trigger
                                        the creation of an organism that can live on mars and make its atmosphere
                                        liveable???.. Who knows what the future of genetic manipulation holds. Could
                                        be good, could be worse.

                                        Personally, I don't like the idea of the Glo-fish as for ornamental use.
                                        Biological use is fine or something like using them to administer water
                                        parameters or things not visible to us directly in an environment... I do
                                        like the Idea of genetic manipulation however. It's a science :).. Maybe I
                                        am just a Hypocrite.

                                        Nim


                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                        >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                        >Sent: 06 August 2004 09:33
                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: dyed fish
                                        >
                                        >how are they going to protect the environment, have
                                        >not found anything on that.
                                        >
                                        >--- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> well, yes, but if only for that reason alone, they
                                        >> are not dangerous to
                                        >> the environment. not only that, they are actually
                                        >> part of a larger
                                        >> project to protect the environment so that's a
                                        >> positive thing.
                                        >> amalthea
                                        >> On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:11 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >> > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does
                                        >> not
                                        >> > benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                        >> > "pretty" is not natural either. it may not be
                                        >> > negative in that the fish are not injured, but it
                                        >> is a
                                        >> > first step in accepting genetic manipulations in
                                        >> all
                                        >> > areas. i am not trying to a take a giant leap
                                        >> here to
                                        >> > designer babies or anything like that, but it will
                                        >> > lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad. these fish
                                        >> are
                                        >> > not cross bred, they are genetically engineered
                                        >> with
                                        >> > the dna of a species taht they could never breed
                                        >> with,
                                        >> > meaning that these fish would neevr exist in the
                                        >> wild,
                                        >> > and should not be put there. they would have
                                        >> little
                                        >> > chance in hiding from predators who would easily
                                        >> track
                                        >> > them at night.
                                        >> >
                                        >> http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                        >> Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                        >> Artful
                                        >> Adornments....
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4005 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                        they're being engineered so that they will glow brightly in the
                                        presence of toxins. it's a very interesting experiment, akin to pigeons
                                        in mine shafts.
                                        amalthea
                                        On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:33 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                        > how are they going to protect the environment, have
                                        > not found anything on that.
                                        >
                                        > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > well, yes, but if only for that reason alone, they
                                        > > are not dangerous to
                                        > > the environment. not only that, they are actually
                                        > > part of a larger
                                        > > project to protect the environment so that's a
                                        > > positive thing.
                                        > > amalthea
                                        > > On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:11 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does
                                        > > not
                                        > > > benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                        > > > "pretty" is not natural either.  it may not be
                                        > > > negative in that the fish are not injured, but it
                                        > > is a
                                        > > > first step in accepting genetic manipulations in
                                        > > all
                                        > > > areas.  i am not trying to a take a giant leap
                                        > > here to
                                        > > > designer babies or anything like that, but it will
                                        > > > lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad.  these fish
                                        > > are
                                        > > > not cross bred, they are genetically engineered
                                        > > with
                                        > > > the dna of a species taht they could never breed
                                        > > with,
                                        > > > meaning that these fish would neevr exist in the
                                        > > wild,
                                        > > > and should not be put there.  they would have
                                        > > little
                                        > > > chance in hiding from predators who would easily
                                        > > track
                                        > > > them at night.
                                        > > >
                                        > > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                        > > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                        > > Artful
                                        > > Adornments....
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >            
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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4006 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
                                        whatever reason or excuse people use to justify these unnatural fish they are natural fish that have been tampered with in one way or another to become freaks full stop. All genuine hobbyists should shun them like the plague and stop patronising shops that sell them as these people obviously do not care about the fish only about making money. If all good hobbyists boycotted these shops they would soon mend there ways or go out of business. It's called ' the power of the people' use it !!.
                                        regards,
                                                         unclenorm.

                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                        i have not found anything stating that fish are dipped
                                        in acid to be dyed.  i hae found several non-animal
                                        rights sites that do stipulate that the life span of
                                        injected fish is decreased, and that only 10% retain
                                        color.  in addition, everything hat i have found on
                                        the solid color skirts, such as strawberry, blue
                                        berry, purple, red, etc is that they are fed food
                                        containing dye from the time that they hatch, so that
                                        they are fully permiated with the dyes.  suppliers
                                        that i have spoken with also stipulate that in
                                        addition to being fed dyed foods, they are also kept
                                        in dyed water in some instances.  my main point for
                                        playing devil's advocate here is that new keepers
                                        should not be scared away from fish that they like
                                        because of horror stories that may or may not be true.
                                        i have not found any indications that acid is used,
                                        and from my 15 years of experience, any time that a
                                        fish loses its slime coat, it ends up dead.  burning
                                        it off with acid would leave it far to open to
                                        bacterial and parasitic infections for it to be a
                                        financially worth while venture, not to meaantion that
                                        the shear shock of the fish would more than liekley
                                        kill it.  As for the store that i work in, we do not
                                        carry the injected fish, only those fed dye or that
                                        swim in dye.  they are not harmed by this, and i have
                                        never seen them lost due to a shortened life span,
                                        only to beginners negligence and accidents.  all of
                                        the ones that i have kept have lived at least 4 years.
                                        i do agree that the injecting of the fish is inhumane
                                        and uncalled for, but i still think that a little more
                                        complete research should be done before riumors are perpetuated.


                                                   
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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4007 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
                                        Hello, Dan and Theresa. Were you referring to dwarf puffers of the genus Travancoricus (Indian true freshwater dwarf puffers no bigger than 1"; I don't think they can tolerate salt in their water)? I've kept mine with ghost shrimp, Amano shrimp, Badis siamensis, panda corys and flagfish fry but never saw it attack anything other than tubifex worms and snails and another dwarf puffer. Even between males there was no fin nipping, just a lot of posturing and chasing around (they comically look like tiny yellow blimps squaring off). When I bought them on impulse, I thought I bought fin-nippers for sure but they coexisted very peacefully with the rest of their tankmates and are rather shy.
                                         
                                        However, I've seen spotted and figure-8 puffers (also considered dwarfs but Southeast Asian brackish waters of origin but can survive in freshwater) steadily hunt down and eat other fishes a lot faster and bigger than them alive and painfully bit by bit..."fin-nipper" is a pretty tame description for these guys.
                                         
                                        Just wanting to know if my fishes are behaving unusually nice for puffers,
                                         
                                        Rod

                                        Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                        Definitely fin nippers. I've never kept amano but mine will eat ghost
                                        shrimp. Only tankmates I've found suitable are otos and bumblebee gobies.


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "questnjurny" <questnjurny@...>


                                        > One thing that I noticed ont hat site which is different from every
                                        > person I have talked to and every site I have been on is that they ARE
                                        > aggressive fish, not peaceful and suitable for a community tank as
                                        > this site implies.  As well, they have been known to eat Amano shrimp!
                                        >  Just thought I would throw out what I have found as well!




                                                




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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4008 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Happy in a 10-gallon?/World of options
                                        Gee, thanks, Paul! That's very nice of you. But I live in a country far, far away...hehehe! I just loaned a puffer to a friend who has snail infestation til he gets his snail population in control and mine growing again. But if you can share experience in identifying females or breeding them, I'll be very grateful as these fish appear rarely in this part of the world.
                                         
                                        Rod

                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                        what state are you in? if you are local to me i'll
                                        send you snails....lol

                                        --- "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > I second the motion for dwarf puffers! They are very
                                        > cute fishes! I do, however, hope you have a source
                                        > of live snails as it is their main and favorite
                                        > food. I haven't been able to train mine to eat
                                        > pellets and have started resorting to asking fellow
                                        > aquarists for snails! :-)

                                        > Dwarf pencilfishes are also a good choice if you
                                        > want low-maintenance pets for your 10 gal. There are
                                        > also several aquarium shrimps that you can put in
                                        > there. I prefer small fishes and also recommend a
                                        > pair of blue rams or honey gouramis or flagfishes, a
                                        > lone male betta or paradise gourami or dwarf botia,
                                        > a small shoal (5-8 fishes)of neons or white cloud
                                        > minnows, dwarf corydoras, otocinclus, bumblebee
                                        > gobies, harlequin rasboras, pygmy barbs, cherry
                                        > barbs, kuhli loaches...

                                        > Rod
                                        >
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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4009 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: badis
                                        Hi! Sorry, the pictures I got of the internet. The tank the badis are living in is infested with fur and thread algae because they wont eat anything but live food and I have to leave a ball of worms in the tank so they can feed at their leisure and I don't have to "spoon-feed" them everyday. But from my experience they are just like most fish: just don't have your pH fluctuating fast and they'll do fine.
                                         
                                        Rod 

                                        Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                        Indeed they are brilliant fish Rod J. Not the easiest to get in the market either.

                                         

                                        How well do they adapt to a tank that is pumped with CO2? Seems most of your plants are pearling so I gather you are pumping a lot of CO2 in the tank?

                                         

                                        Nim

                                         

                                         


                                        From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez [mailto:la_rmarquezjr@...]
                                        Sent: 02 August 2004 12:11
                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: badis

                                         

                                        Here's some pics of these little-known aquarium fishes. If you like small or dwarf species, you'll like these guys! :-)

                                        The first two pics are of Badis badis, the next two are of Badis siamensis, the last I think is Badis dario. Badis are also called chameleon fish because they are capable of extreme color changes. I only have siamensis, probably the smallest of the Badis genus, at 3 centimeters maximum body lenght for the male and 2 centimeters for the female. The male siamensis can go from ghostly metallic blue to fire-engine red, showing or not showing black speckles, depending upon the mood. The pictures I have do not do justice to the colors these fish are capable of displaying.

                                        Rod


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                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4010 From: Patrick Date: 8/6/2004
                                        Subject: Re: Stocked Too Fast?Robdar4609
                                        Attachments :
                                              Don't use any chemicals to reduce ammonia, nitrite, or nitrite.  These chemicals should only be used for tanks that you don't plan to use for more than a couple of weeks and then take them apart, in my opinion. 
                                           
                                          Patrick N.
                                           
                                          Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                          -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                          -------Original Message-------
                                          yeah, I have no patiance..I thought waiting a few days was good
                                          enough...now I just have my 2 danios and pleco, all 4 tetras
                                          dies...I also have a live plant (amazon sword) which seems to be
                                          doing fine, it went in the same time the 2 danios did...I just
                                          tested and teh ammonia is still high, shoudl I add Ammo Lock or some
                                          kind of ammonia detox liquid or just let it run its course?

                                          C
                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4011 From: Patrick Date: 8/6/2004
                                          Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                          Attachments :
                                                While I don't personally like the dyed (formerly known by me as died) fish, I don't call for a boycott of all stores that sell them (I don't know of one in my area that doesn't sell them).  Local fish stores that are good in all (or just some) the other important areas need our support or they will be replaced by chain stores that don't seem to care about the customer or the hobby at all.  You can boycott the fish, the product, or other things, but I cannot support any boycott of a good store.  If it is a bad store with sick fish all of the time, that is different. 
                                             
                                            Patrick N.
                                             
                                            Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                            -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4012 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            In a message dated 8/6/2004 4:11:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wtfmorlok@... writes:

                                            genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does not
                                            benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                            "pretty" is not natural either.

                                            If you're referring to the GloFish, there is a reason that they were "genetically manipulated". They were originally bred to detect pollutants in the water. And for the record, they do NOT glow in the dark ... they seem to glow under uv light such as a black light. So they wouldn't be more vulnerable to predators at night, unless said predators are carrying around black lights.

                                            If you bothered to take the time to see what they had to say about it, you might not be so negative.

                                            http://www.glofish.com


                                            Erin
                                            CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4013 From: hspellmen Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: guppies and the rest of the animals
                                            Do guppies mix well with other tropical fish?

                                            Also, how can I sex Clown Loaches? I have one that will lay on its
                                            side in the gravel, but as soon as I get near the tank, it will swim
                                            off. It seems to do this late in the evening.

                                            Harry
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4014 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: guppies and the rest of the animals
                                            guppies do well with most other fish as long as the
                                            others are not fin munchers, and as long as you have a
                                            few females with the males. clown loaches like to lay
                                            like that, don't worry


                                            --- hspellmen <pscherz@...> wrote:

                                            > Do guppies mix well with other tropical fish?
                                            >
                                            > Also, how can I sex Clown Loaches? I have one that
                                            > will lay on its
                                            > side in the gravel, but as soon as I get near the
                                            > tank, it will swim
                                            > off. It seems to do this late in the evening.
                                            >
                                            > Harry
                                            >
                                            >





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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4015 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            moon light can act the sameway as a black light.

                                            --- Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                                            > In a message dated 8/6/2004 4:11:30 AM Eastern
                                            > Daylight Time,
                                            > wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                            >
                                            > > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does
                                            > not
                                            > > benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                            > > "pretty" is not natural either.
                                            >
                                            > If you're referring to the GloFish, there is a
                                            > reason that they were
                                            > "genetically manipulated". They were originally bred
                                            > to detect pollutants in the
                                            > water. And for the record, they do NOT glow in the
                                            > dark ... they seem to glow under
                                            > uv light such as a black light. So they wouldn't be
                                            > more vulnerable to
                                            > predators at night, unless said predators are
                                            > carrying around black lights.
                                            >
                                            > If you bothered to take the time to see what they
                                            > had to say about it, you
                                            > might not be so negative.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.glofish.com
                                            >
                                            > Erin
                                            > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                            > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                            > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                            > my LiveJournal
                                            > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                            >




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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4016 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: guppies and the rest of the animals
                                            guppies mix well with most small fish.

                                            your clown loach is resting
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4017 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
                                            this guy is a perfect example of what i was refering
                                            to when i said "extremist". there is no reason to
                                            boycott a store because of one species of fish, which
                                            is legal. in california they are not legal, so i
                                            don't have to worry about it, but small fish stores
                                            may have to carry them to compete with chain stores in
                                            other parts of teh country, and it would not be good
                                            for anyone for the small shops to go under. it would
                                            be one thing to boycott the specific fish, but to try
                                            and put people out of business is just lame.


                                            Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...> wrote:

                                            > whatever reason or excuse people use to justify
                                            > these unnatural fish they are natural fish that have
                                            > been tampered with in one way or another to become
                                            > freaks full stop. All genuine hobbyists should shun
                                            > them like the plague and stop patronising shops that
                                            > sell them as these people obviously do not care
                                            > about the fish only about making money. If all good
                                            > hobbyists boycotted these shops they would soon mend
                                            > there ways or go out of business. It's called ' the
                                            > power of the people' use it !!.
                                            > regards,
                                            > unclenorm.
                                            >
                                            > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                            > i have not found anything stating that fish are
                                            > dipped
                                            > in acid to be dyed. i hae found several non-animal
                                            > rights sites that do stipulate that the life span of
                                            > injected fish is decreased, and that only 10% retain
                                            > color. in addition, everything hat i have found on
                                            > the solid color skirts, such as strawberry, blue
                                            > berry, purple, red, etc is that they are fed food
                                            > containing dye from the time that they hatch, so
                                            > that
                                            > they are fully permiated with the dyes. suppliers
                                            > that i have spoken with also stipulate that in
                                            > addition to being fed dyed foods, they are also kept
                                            > in dyed water in some instances. my main point for
                                            > playing devil's advocate here is that new keepers
                                            > should not be scared away from fish that they like
                                            > because of horror stories that may or may not be
                                            > true.
                                            > i have not found any indications that acid is used,
                                            > and from my 15 years of experience, any time that a
                                            > fish loses its slime coat, it ends up dead. burning
                                            > it off with acid would leave it far to open to
                                            > bacterial and parasitic infections for it to be a
                                            > financially worth while venture, not to meaantion
                                            > that
                                            > the shear shock of the fish would more than liekley
                                            > kill it. As for the store that i work in, we do not
                                            > carry the injected fish, only those fed dye or that
                                            > swim in dye. they are not harmed by this, and i
                                            > have
                                            > never seen them lost due to a shortened life span,
                                            > only to beginners negligence and accidents. all of
                                            > the ones that i have kept have lived at least 4
                                            > years.
                                            > i do agree that the injecting of the fish is
                                            > inhumane
                                            > and uncalled for, but i still think that a little
                                            > more
                                            > complete research should be done before riumors are
                                            > perpetuated.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4018 From: paul helms Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            this is where i wold have a problem, many people in
                                            here seem to have a huge problem with giving fish an
                                            injection to look pretty, but they have no problem
                                            engineering a fish to send to a more agonizing death?
                                            being poisoned by poor quality water is in no way ok
                                            to do to an animal. the pigeons (canaries) died in
                                            the mine shafts whe they were exposed to the gas
                                            levels because they were more sensitive than humans.


                                            --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                            > they're being engineered so that they will glow
                                            > brightly in the
                                            > presence of toxins. it's a very interesting
                                            > experiment, akin to pigeons
                                            > in mine shafts.
                                            > amalthea
                                            > On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:33 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > how are they going to protect the environment,
                                            > have
                                            > > not found anything on that.
                                            > >
                                            > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > well, yes, but if only for that reason alone,
                                            > they
                                            > > > are not dangerous to
                                            > > > the environment. not only that, they are
                                            > actually
                                            > > > part of a larger
                                            > > > project to protect the environment so that's a
                                            > > > positive thing.
                                            > > > amalthea
                                            > > > On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:11 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that
                                            > does
                                            > > > not
                                            > > > > benefit anyone except those who look at it
                                            > and say
                                            > > > > "pretty" is not natural either.� it may not
                                            > be
                                            > > > > negative in that the fish are not injured,
                                            > but it
                                            > > > is a
                                            > > > > first step in accepting genetic manipulations
                                            > in
                                            > > > all
                                            > > > > areas.� i am not trying to a take a giant
                                            > leap
                                            > > > here to
                                            > > > > designer babies or anything like that, but it
                                            > will
                                            > > > > lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad.� these
                                            > fish
                                            > > > are
                                            > > > > not cross bred, they are genetically
                                            > engineered
                                            > > > with
                                            > > > > the dna of a species taht they could never
                                            > breed
                                            > > > with,
                                            > > > > meaning that these fish would neevr exist in
                                            > the
                                            > > > wild,
                                            > > > > and should not be put there.� they would have
                                            > > > little
                                            > > > > chance in hiding from predators who would
                                            > easily
                                            > > > track
                                            > > > > them at night.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4019 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            actually, they glow under regular light. just like a jellyfish, the
                                            more light they are exposed to, the more the glowing cells emit out.
                                            that's how jelly fish work and that's how glofish work as well. so they
                                            are more vulnerable during the day.
                                            amalthea
                                            On Aug 6, 2004, at 1:07 PM, Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                                            > In a message dated 8/6/2004 4:11:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            > wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does not
                                            > benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                            > "pretty" is not natural either.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > If you're referring to the GloFish, there is a reason that they were
                                            > "genetically manipulated". They were originally bred to detect
                                            > pollutants in the water. And for the record, they do NOT glow in the
                                            > dark ... they seem to glow under uv light such as a black light. So
                                            > they wouldn't be more vulnerable to predators at night, unless said
                                            > predators are carrying around black lights.
                                            >
                                            > If you bothered to take the time to see what they had to say about
                                            > it, you might not be so negative.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.glofish.com
                                            >
                                            > Erin
                                            > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                            > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                            > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                            > my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4020 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            this is an example of the greater good. those fish would be sent to
                                            their deaths t protect all other species in the environment. the best
                                            you can do is stay on the side of the greater good, so far as i'm
                                            concerned.
                                            amalthea
                                            On Aug 6, 2004, at 2:18 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                            > this is where i wold have a problem, many people in
                                            > here seem to have a huge problem with giving fish an
                                            > injection to look pretty, but they have no problem
                                            > engineering a fish to send to a more agonizing death?
                                            > being poisoned by poor quality water is in no way ok
                                            > to do to an animal. the pigeons (canaries) died in
                                            > the mine shafts whe they were exposed to the gas
                                            > levels because they were more sensitive than humans.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> they're being engineered so that they will glow
                                            >> brightly in the
                                            >> presence of toxins. it's a very interesting
                                            >> experiment, akin to pigeons
                                            >> in mine shafts.
                                            >> amalthea
                                            >> On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:33 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>> how are they going to protect the environment,
                                            >> have
                                            >>> not found anything on that.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                            >>>
                                            >>>> well, yes, but if only for that reason alone,
                                            >> they
                                            >>>> are not dangerous to
                                            >>>> the environment. not only that, they are
                                            >> actually
                                            >>>> part of a larger
                                            >>>> project to protect the environment so that's a
                                            >>>> positive thing.
                                            >>>> amalthea
                                            >>>> On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:11 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>> genetic maipulation in a non natural way that
                                            >> does
                                            >>>> not
                                            >>>>> benefit anyone except those who look at it
                                            >> and say
                                            >>>>> "pretty" is not natural either.  it may not
                                            >> be
                                            >>>>> negative in that the fish are not injured,
                                            >> but it
                                            >>>> is a
                                            >>>>> first step in accepting genetic manipulations
                                            >> in
                                            >>>> all
                                            >>>>> areas.  i am not trying to a take a giant
                                            >> leap
                                            >>>> here to
                                            >>>>> designer babies or anything like that, but it
                                            >> will
                                            >>>>> lead somewhere, maybe good, maybe bad.  these
                                            >> fish
                                            >>>> are
                                            >>>>> not cross bred, they are genetically
                                            >> engineered
                                            >>>> with
                                            >>>>> the dna of a species taht they could never
                                            >> breed
                                            >>>> with,
                                            >>>>> meaning that these fish would neevr exist in
                                            >> the
                                            >>>> wild,
                                            >>>>> and should not be put there.  they would have
                                            >>>> little
                                            >>>>> chance in hiding from predators who would
                                            >> easily
                                            >>>> track
                                            >>>>> them at night.
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>> http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                            >>>> Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and
                                            >> Other
                                            >>>> Artful
                                            >>>> Adornments....
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>            
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                                            >>
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                                            >>>  
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                                            >> to:
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                                            >>> Service.
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4021 From: bigter4@yahoo.com Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Betta old age?
                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Xandros
                                            Desktop OS User <joegum@v...> wrote:
                                            > I've had my betta for about one and one-half to two years. He's
                                            > currently being kept in a 55-gallon tank. I don't think he's being
                                            > picked on. His finnage is full length, but, there are lengthwise
                                            slits
                                            > in the fins. Also, his color is good except for the crown of his
                                            head,
                                            > which seems to have a washed out look to it. (He used to have a
                                            red
                                            > head and beep blue body.) He's usually active, but he seems to be
                                            > spending more time just resting on the bottom of the tank. Is this
                                            > likely just old age?
                                            >
                                            > Thanks, -Joe G.

                                            Hello Joe..I also have a Betta around the same age.. It is true that
                                            they do spend alot of time at the bottom of the tank. this is normal.
                                            although the life span of a Betta is about 2 + yrs. Good lUck - Terry
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4022 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            You guys are aware that gold fish have been inbred for 1000 years right? (not to mention cats, dogs, cows, pigs, you name it.  Breeding for traits is also a form of genetic manipulation it just takes a little longer
                                             
                                            Andreas
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4023 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: guppies and the rest of the animals
                                            Guppies do well with most any smaller peaceful community fish. Avoid putting them with fin nippers (Tiger Barbs, etc.) and male Bettas which will mistake large-tailed male guppies as another male Betta and attack it. I don't think there's any reliable way yet of sexing Clown Loaches; the females are generally more fuller bodied but that's about it. Their "playing dead" habit of lying on their side is just that -- a habit, that most clown loaches indulge in. They are well known for this behavior. SS
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4024 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish

                                               H'lo,

                                                  Well, some hybridized Goldfish are considered permanently-crippled breeds, and the Dogs' I'm aware of have, each, diseases and weaknesses as the result of breeding. A documentary about pidgeons in Europe pointed out that some of those poor birds are forced to live a totally tortured, unnatural life because of the prizes associated with so-called beauty/interest.

                                                                  JoeP

                                            -------------- Original message --------------
                                            You guys are aware that gold fish have been inbred for 1000 years right? (not to mention cats, dogs, cows, pigs, you name it. Breeding for traits is also a form of genetic manipulation it just takes a little longer
                                            Andreas






                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4025 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            this is true, but some people are crippled due to years of selective
                                            breeding as well. this is the nature of human nature. sometimes it
                                            comes out well, sometimes it doesn't. very few want wolves as pets,
                                            most prefer poodles. and what people want, people tend to get.
                                            amalthea
                                            On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:07 PM, j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                            >    H'lo,
                                            >
                                            >       Well, some hybridized Goldfish are considered
                                            > permanently-crippled breeds, and the Dogs' I'm aware of have, each,
                                            > diseases and weaknesses as the result of breeding. A documentary about
                                            > pidgeons in Europe pointed out that some of those poor birds are
                                            > forced to live a totally tortured, unnatural life because of the
                                            > prizes associated with so-called beauty/interest.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
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                                            ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4026 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: not so much a problem, but a question?
                                            we have a koi pond in our backyard, it's about 700 gallons or so. all
                                            summer it's been doing very well. we slowly added fish, they seem
                                            happy. we have crayfish in there and suddenly a ton of frogs as well
                                            and we're very happy about that. the water has had a rusty tint all
                                            summer, but i assumed that was from oak leaves and the occasional stick
                                            falling in. about 4 days ago, the water was very brown so i pulled out
                                            the underwater filter and gave it a really good cleaning. the pads were
                                            clogged with mud from a leaky plant pot, so i fixed that problem. by
                                            yesterday, the water was back to normal. today, i went outside and the
                                            water was like crystal! it was SO clear and colorless, i was stunned.
                                            it looked like a swimming pool or something. has anyone ever heard of
                                            this? why would my water suddenly turn SO clear? how can i keep it this
                                            way? i'm not sure the fish are really enjoying it, they seem a bit
                                            scared by how much light now reaches the bottom. is this harmful to
                                            them? does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?
                                            amalthea

                                            Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4027 From: questnjurny Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: not so much a problem, but a question?
                                            Wow, sure wish I had your problem! Ours is green, green and a little
                                            greener. Each year we add a new bit to the pond...last year we made
                                            it and bought a pump, this year the filter, and set them all up, but
                                            still no UV thing so we have a mild algae problem. Anyways, am trying
                                            to fix this by changing water every couple weeks. Unfortunatly I
                                            can't see my fish until they feed, and we say a heron fly off
                                            yesterday, and now only the little fish are coming up to feed. We
                                            don't know if the big guys got spooked, or if he got some of them. Of
                                            course now it is raining and the fish won't come up to feed in the
                                            rain. Will have to wait for sun to see what is left. I will be
                                            supremely ticked if he got any of my koi! On the plus side, there is
                                            nowhere for the herons to stand in the water, the edges are four feet
                                            straight down, so hopefully that made his hunting a little more
                                            difficult. It is now covered with an ugly net.

                                            Good luck keepign your water so clear, let us konw if you find out how
                                            it got that way!

                                            Carly


                                            why would my water suddenly turn SO clear? how can i keep it this
                                            > way? i'm not sure the fish are really enjoying it, they seem a bit
                                            > scared by how much light now reaches the bottom. is this harmful to
                                            > them? does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?
                                            > amalthea
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4028 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            Patrick,  If they are selling the fish in question how can you call them a good store ? as I said before they do not care about the fish they are just out to make money from customers who have no knowledge of what they are buying a good store would not stock these fish ! in the first place.
                                            regards,
                                                         unclenorm.


                                            Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                While I don't personally like the dyed (formerly known by me as died) fish, I don't call for a boycott of all stores that sell them (I don't know of one in my area that doesn't sell them).  Local fish stores that are good in all (or just some) the other important areas need our support or they will be replaced by chain stores that don't seem to care about the customer or the hobby at all.  You can boycott the fish, the product, or other things, but I cannot support any boycott of a good store.  If it is a bad store with sick fish all of the time, that is different. 
                                             
                                            Patrick N.
                                             
                                            Click the link below to learn about the cycle.
                                            -About my tank:  29 gallon tank.  I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.


                                                    




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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4029 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: From the Internet Scout Report
                                            Sea Cucumbers (Holothuroidea)
                                            Tree of Life Web Project: Holothuroidea-Sea Cucumbers
                                            http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Holothuroidea&contgroup=Echinodermata
                                            Charles Darwin Research Station-Frequently Asked Questions of the Sea
                                            Cucumber
                                            http://www.darwinfoundation.org/marine/FAQcuke.html
                                            Enchanted Learning: Sea Cucumber Printout
                                            http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/invertebrates/echinoderm/seacucumb
                                            er/printout.shtml
                                            Royal BC Museum: Research Papers-Taxing Problems
                                            http://rbcm1.rbcm.gov.bc.ca/nh_papers/taxing.html
                                            Invertebrate Anatomy Online- Sclerodactyla briareus
                                            http://www.lander.edu/rsfox/310SclerodactylaLab.html
                                            MoonDragons Health & Wellness: Nutrition Basics-Sea Cucumber
                                            http://www.moondragon.org/health/nutritionbasics/supplements/seacuke.html
                                            The Secretariat of the Pacific Community-The Conservation of sea cucumbers
                                            in Malaysia, their Taxonomy, Ecology and Trade: International Conference
                                            http://www.spc.org.nc/coastfish/News/bdm/12/1.htm
                                            Environmental News Network: Court says Galapagos Sea Cucumber Limits Remain
                                            http://www.enn.com/news/2004-07-27/s_26215.asp

                                            This Report's Topic in Depth explores the world of sea cucumbers, or
                                            Holothuroidea, a diverse group of intriguing marine animals. The first site
                                            (1), from the Tree of Life Web Project, provides nice clear images of sea
                                            cucumbers and brief concise sections on Characteristics, The Orders of
                                            Holothuroidea, Fossil History, and Discussion of Phylogenetic Relationships.
                                            The second site (2), from the Charles Darwin Research Station, displays
                                            short answers to commonly asked questions about sea cucumbers like: What is
                                            their importance within the marine communities?; How do sea cucumbers
                                            reproduce?; and What is the potential environment impact of overexploiting
                                            sea cucumber populations? From Enchanted Learning, the third site (3)
                                            features a diagrammed print-out of a s ea cucumber along with short
                                            descriptions of Holothuroidea anatomy, diet, classification, and predators.
                                            Hosted by the Royal BC Museum, the fourth site (4) contains a brief research
                                            paper by curator Philip Lambert on taxonomy issues concerning sea cucumbers.
                                            The fifth site (5), developed by Richard Fox of Lander University, contains
                                            detailed instructions for a laboratory exercise with Sclerodactyla briareus,
                                            a species of sea cucumber. From MoonDragons Health & Wellness website, the
                                            sixth site (6) contains a sea cucumber recipe and briefly discusses sea
                                            cucumber cuisine and health benefits. Hosted by the Secretariat of the
                                            Pacific Community, the seventh site (7) provides information about an
                                            international conference titled: Conservation of sea cucumbers in Malaysia,
                                            their Taxonomy, Ecology and Trade. The site contains concluding remarks,
                                            abstracts from papers presented at the conference, and a list of email
                                            contacts for conference participants. The final (8) site from the
                                            Environmental News Network features a short article about an Ecuadorian
                                            court upholding sea cucumber fishing limits in the Galapagos islands. [NL]


                                            >From The NSDL Scout Report for the Life Sciences, Copyright Internet Scout
                                            Project 1994-2003. http://scout.wisc.edu/

                                            \\Steve//
                                            For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                            http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                            If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                            http://www.pvas.com
                                            Sheltie Rescue
                                            http://www.nvsr.org
                                            Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                            http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                            List Owner: fishadmin
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                            gwapa
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4030 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            These fish were created in a laboratory for a specific purpose and that is were they should have stayed. The person that passed the details to the people that are trying to capitalise on them are all very irresponsible. Laws should be passed to prevent this kind of irresponsibility.
                                            regards,
                                                               unclenorm
                                            Witchywmn42@... wrote:
                                            In a message dated 8/6/2004 4:11:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wtfmorlok@... writes:

                                            genetic maipulation in a non natural way that does not
                                            benefit anyone except those who look at it and say
                                            "pretty" is not natural either.


                                            If you're referring to the GloFish, there is a reason that they were "genetically manipulated". They were originally bred to detect pollutants in the water. And for the record, they do NOT glow in the dark ... they seem to glow under uv light such as a black light. So they wouldn't be more vulnerable to predators at night, unless said predators are carrying around black lights.

                                            If you bothered to take the time to see what they had to say about it, you might not be so negative.

                                            http://www.glofish.com


                                            Erin
                                            CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                            ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                            my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/



                                                    




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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4031 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
                                            Paul,  There is nothing "extremist" about me I am just a long time hobbyist who cares about fish and nature, the legality has no bearing on the issue, it is more the morality of the issue, it seams to me that you are just trying to justify the sale of these fish because you are exploiting them yourself ?
                                            regards,
                                                             unclenorm.
                                            paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                            this guy is a perfect example of what i was refering
                                            to when i said "extremist".  there is no reason to
                                            boycott a store because of one species of fish, which
                                            is legal.  in california they are not legal, so i
                                            don't have to worry about it, but small fish stores
                                            may have to carry them to compete with chain stores in
                                            other parts of teh country, and it would not be good
                                            for anyone for the small shops to go under.  it would
                                            be one thing to boycott the specific fish, but to try
                                            and put people out of business is just lame.


                                            Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...> wrote:

                                            > whatever reason or excuse people use to justify
                                            > these unnatural fish they are natural fish that have
                                            > been tampered with in one way or another to become
                                            > freaks full stop. All genuine hobbyists should shun
                                            > them like the plague and stop patronising shops that
                                            > sell them as these people obviously do not care
                                            > about the fish only about making money. If all good
                                            > hobbyists boycotted these shops they would soon mend
                                            > there ways or go out of business. It's called ' the
                                            > power of the people' use it !!.
                                            > regards,
                                            >                  unclenorm.
                                            >
                                            > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                            > i have not found anything stating that fish are
                                            > dipped
                                            > in acid to be dyed.  i hae found several non-animal
                                            > rights sites that do stipulate that the life span of
                                            > injected fish is decreased, and that only 10% retain
                                            > color.  in addition, everything hat i have found on
                                            > the solid color skirts, such as strawberry, blue
                                            > berry, purple, red, etc is that they are fed food
                                            > containing dye from the time that they hatch, so
                                            > that
                                            > they are fully permiated with the dyes.  suppliers
                                            > that i have spoken with also stipulate that in
                                            > addition to being fed dyed foods, they are also kept
                                            > in dyed water in some instances.  my main point for
                                            > playing devil's advocate here is that new keepers
                                            > should not be scared away from fish that they like
                                            > because of horror stories that may or may not be
                                            > true.
                                            > i have not found any indications that acid is used,
                                            > and from my 15 years of experience, any time that a
                                            > fish loses its slime coat, it ends up dead.  burning
                                            > it off with acid would leave it far to open to
                                            > bacterial and parasitic infections for it to be a
                                            > financially worth while venture, not to meaantion
                                            > that
                                            > the shear shock of the fish would more than liekley
                                            > kill it.  As for the store that i work in, we do not
                                            > carry the injected fish, only those fed dye or that
                                            > swim in dye.  they are not harmed by this, and i
                                            > have
                                            > never seen them lost due to a shortened life span,
                                            > only to beginners negligence and accidents.  all of
                                            > the ones that i have kept have lived at least 4
                                            > years.
                                            > i do agree that the injecting of the fish is
                                            > inhumane
                                            > and uncalled for, but i still think that a little
                                            > more
                                            > complete research should be done before riumors are
                                            > perpetuated.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >            
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4032 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            i'm sure that when they were created, it was a known fact that people
                                            would also want them in the pet industry.
                                            further, there is no harm having them in the pet industry. these
                                            animals are not in pain due to some genetic jumbling, they simply have
                                            different coloring. i see no problem with that.
                                            amalthea
                                            On Aug 6, 2004, at 9:51 PM, Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:

                                            > These fish were created in a laboratory for a specific purpose and
                                            > that is were they should have stayed. The person that passed the
                                            > details to the people that are trying to capitalise on them are all
                                            > very irresponsible. Laws should be passed to prevent this kind of
                                            > irresponsibility.
                                            > regards,
                                            >                    unclenorm
                                            > Witchywmn42@... wrote:
                                            > In a message dated 8/6/2004 4:11:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            > wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                            Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4033 From: Xandros Desktop OS User Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Betta old age?
                                            > Thanks Terry.


                                            > His entire head is now washed out. I'm sure that its not ich, velvet
                                            > or anything external. He's simply dramatically losing color. It
                                            > seems to have started at his nhead and is working its way toward the
                                            > tail. He's active, hungry (He actually seems to be getting a little
                                            > pot belly.) and curious about his suroundings. Other than the change
                                            > of coloration and the fins developing slits, he seems pretty much the
                                            > same as he's always been.

                                            -Joe G.

                                            >
                                            >



                                            > Hello Joe..I also have a Betta around the same age.. It is true that
                                            > they do spend alot of time at the bottom of the tank. this is normal.
                                            > although the life span of a Betta is about 2 + yrs. Good lUck - Terry
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4034 From: questnjurny Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Betta old age?
                                            Glad someone else asked this question...I have two bettas (in
                                            different tanks of course!) and both of them act more like cichlids
                                            than bettas. The red one has claimed the driftwood adn crams himself
                                            underneath it (now that he has stopped chasing the poor little molly
                                            around), the pastel one has claimed a castle adn won't let anyone else
                                            near it. I have never had a betta that acts like this, I figured
                                            maybe they were braindamaged from living in a stupid little cup before
                                            I got them. ;) Glad someone else has bottom dwelling bettas!

                                            Carly

                                            > Hello Joe..I also have a Betta around the same age.. It is true that
                                            > they do spend alot of time at the bottom of the tank. this is normal.
                                            > although the life span of a Betta is about 2 + yrs. Good lUck - Terry
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4035 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish
                                            One of my favorite lfs actually does say their particular glassfish are dyed. They claim these fish are colored in a hand-painting process, not injected. Not sure how that would be done but I appreciate the fact that they're marked as dyed fish so individual customers can make their own decision to purchase or not with that knowledge.
                                             
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: amalthea23

                                            they don't ever say they're dyed.
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4036 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/6/2004
                                            Subject: Re: badis
                                            Verry beautiful fish! Where do you find those beautiful fish? I have never seen them in any stores where I live.
                                            Dorothy

                                            "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...> wrote:

                                            Here's some pics of these little-known aquarium fishes. If you like small or dwarf species, you'll like these guys! :-)

                                            The first two pics are of Badis badis, the next two are of Badis siamensis, the last I think is Badis dario. Badis are also called chameleon fish because they are capable of extreme color changes. I only have siamensis, probably the smallest of the Badis genus, at 3 centimeters maximum body lenght for the male and 2 centimeters for the female. The male siamensis can go from ghostly metallic blue to fire-engine red, showing or not showing black speckles, depending upon the mood. The pictures I have do not do justice to the colors these fish are capable of displaying.

                                            Rod


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                                            > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/pjpeg name=030121-badis.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/pjpeg name=badis-mt.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/pjpeg name=badisbadissp.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/pjpeg name=Parry_1.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/pjpeg name=1201.jpg


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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4037 From: harry perry Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: badis/Dorothy
                                            Dear Dorothy,
                                             
                                            Not only beautiful but they stay small. Some only reach 3/4". You could raise a whole colony in a 10 gal. tank. They are egg layers but the parents don't eat the eggs or young.
                                            They are hard to come by, but can be found on the web and Aquabid on occasion.
                                            I am a moderator of a group concerning this species. I'll ask permission to post a link.
                                             
                                            Harry

                                            dorothy wheeler <duchess562000@...> wrote:
                                            Very beautiful fish! Where do you find those beautiful fish? I have never seen them in any stores where I live.
                                            Dorothy

                                            "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...> wrote:

                                            Here's some pics of these little-known aquarium fishes. If you like small or dwarf species, you'll like these guys! :-)

                                            The first two pics are of Badis badis, the next two are of Badis siamensis, the last I think is Badis dario. Badis are also called chameleon fish because they are capable of extreme color changes. I only have siamensis, probably the smallest of the Badis genus, at 3 centimeters maximum body lenght for the male and 2 centimeters for the female. The male siamensis can go from ghostly metallic blue to fire-engine red, showing or not showing black speckles, depending upon the mood. The pictures I have do not do justice to the colors these fish are capable of displaying.

                                            Rod


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                                            > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/pjpeg name=030121-badis.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/pjpeg name=badis-mt.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/pjpeg name=badisbadissp.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/pjpeg name=Parry_1.jpg


                                            > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/pjpeg name=1201.jpg


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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4038 From: ron44852000 Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                            I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or larger Acrylic Tank. I
                                            now have a 3 questions -
                                            1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                            2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                            3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase Acrylic tanks? I
                                            reside in the Toronto area.
                                            Ron
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4039 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: ethics and fish
                                            Wow, things are getting a little "snippy" on this group; maybe we need a separate site to debate all of the "ethical" issues, so those of us looking for advice and information and resources about our aquaria don't have to read the "flaming". Can't we all just agree to disagree? Perhaps none of us are "right" or "wrong"; just different.
                                            All of us have different ethical values... some people would feel that the fact that we are keeping fish and other wildlife in confined, artifical environments is cruel in and of itself, but of course they wouldn't be on this group in the first place.
                                            Still, we all probably run the gamut from trying to recreate the natural environment as closely as possible and only using wild caught fish to avoid inbreeding issues, to "anything goes as long as I can enjoy my hobby".
                                            Some sacrifice their fish, killing them slowly to cycle their tanks, by subjecting them to high levels of toxic ammonia, and some of us choose to use fishless cycling and are saddened by any loss. I chose the latter path. And I would not personally choose a fish that was not naturally evolved, but that is just my choice. I also don't personally like fake plants... but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't have a right to choose Easter Egg fish, multicolor gravel, and day-glo plastic for their aquaria if that is their preference.

                                            New subject: My male dwarf gourami has developed some tiny holes in his fin (the one along the top - dorsal?). It started with some faded spots the middle of this week, then one hole, then I saw two or three yesterday. The other inhabitants are 5 white clouds and a female dwarf gourami, so I don't think they are bites... besides, they are in the middle, not along the edges. His behavior is the same as always... chasing the poor female all over the tank, and working on his bubble nest, and coming to the glass to glare at me when I tend the tank. My water levels, before my weekly water change this morning, appear to be just fine: temp 76, pH 7.2, KH 180ppm, GH 120ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20ppm, Ammonia 0, iron 0.25 (a bit low , forgot to add Plant Gro last week), phosphate 1.0, dissolved O2 95%, calculated CO2 just under 20 ppm. But I am worried because I found my oto dead Monday morning, and am concerned my tank is infected with something. Is this "fin rot"? What causes this? Audrey
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4040 From: Ted Angelo Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: breeding albino aeneus corydoras
                                            can anyone tell me how to make albino aeneus corydoras spawn? thanks!
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4041 From: jd7152 Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Live plant question
                                            I'm somewhat new to Aquarium keeping. When my live cabomba plants
                                            grow to the top of the water, do I cut them off and replant the end,
                                            or just let them keep growing? Or cut and discard the ones that are
                                            growing to long? I've never had live plants in a tank. They are
                                            looking good but also growing good too? help if you can..tank is a
                                            20 hex, but planning a 55 gal soon with bala sharks in it. Any tips
                                            on bala sharks, like water, how many, feeding, what other fish to
                                            keep with them?

                                            thanks in advance.
                                            george
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4042 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: breeding albino aeneus corydoras

                                            Hi,

                                               In my experience and from what I've read, Coradoras' breed according to an evolutionary mechanism that causes spawning when snow-melt, as warmer weather approaches, begins cooling their water environment. The two Cory types that bred in my aquarium were Aeneus, and Paleatus. In my aquarium, the breeding was not associated with times of the year, but lower water temperatures, so that breeding could occur at any time of the year. I don't know if Albino Corys will behave as the types mentioned above. I did'nt record the water temperatures at the time of breeding, but you don't need to do anything radical. The temperature changes that occured in my apartment were associated with having adequate heating in the tank, and during summer, with an air-conditioner going all summer long, cooler days would cause a drop in the average temperature of 77 or 78 degrees. If my memory serves, colder days in winter could cause a drop as the heater catches up with a cold-spell.

                                                             Joe P

                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                            > can anyone tell me how to make albino aeneus corydoras spawn? thanks!
                                            >
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4043 From: questnjurny Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Too funny....
                                            Just had to share, esp after the posts a little while ago on cats and
                                            tanks. Woke up early this morning to a loud CRACK, SPLASH, then a wet
                                            cat running across the bed. Seems that Rodeo, one of my cats decided
                                            that a good place to hang out was on top of the 10gallon planted tank,
                                            which has two pieces of sliding glass for a cover. One of the pieces
                                            of glass broke under his oh-so-svelte body and we had one cat swimming
                                            amongst the platies. When I finally found him in his hiding spot, he
                                            was wet from head to tail. I somehow don't think that he will be
                                            sitting on top of anymore tanks, now I just have to convince the other
                                            two. The fish don't seem any worse for wear having a big white cat in
                                            their tank, but they did think it was time to eat being as we were all up.

                                            Carly
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4044 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Too funny....

                                            H'lo,

                                                Came accross some 1/4" glass somewhere, and it was serviceable, so I replaced my standard glass top by cutting 4 rectangles to fit the areas on my 75 gallon. For the space remaining at back, I cut lexan appropriately to accomodate openings for filters, etc.  The glass, because the edges were so sharp, I ground to a safe, comfortable edge with a fine grindstone. ( by hand ) I used colored , transparent suction-cups for lifting. My 4 cats had'nt gone through it. You could try thicker glass, and have the problem of wondering if your plants are getting enough light. With 1/4" my Hygro Polysperma, Java Moss and Fern did OK.

                                                                       Joe P

                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                            > Just had to share, esp after the posts a little while ago on cats and
                                            > tanks. Woke up early this morning to a loud CRACK, SPLASH, then a wet
                                            > cat running across the bed. Seems that Rodeo, one of my cats decided
                                            > that a good place to hang out was on top of the 10gallon planted tank,
                                            > which has two pieces of sliding glass for a cover. One of the pieces
                                            > of glass broke under his oh-so-svelte body and we had one cat swimming
                                            > amongst the platies. When I finally found him in his hiding spot, he
                                            > was wet from head to tail. I somehow don't think that he will be
                                            > sitting on top of anymore tanks, now I just have to convince the other
                                            > two. The fish don't seem any worse for wear having a big white cat in
                                            > their tank, but they did think it was time to eat being as we were all up.
                                            >
                                            > Carly
                                            >
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4045 From: pontius2000 Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: are these fish compatible?
                                            I'm wondering if ONE convict cichlid will get along with 5 or 6 tiger
                                            barbs? I was worried that the convict may be a problem, but after
                                            watching a tank full of tigers at a lfs, I think the tiger barbs may
                                            be nastier than the convicts. but at least the convict will be much
                                            larger than the barbs, so will it be able to hold it's own, or would
                                            I be asking for trouble by mixing the two? also, what are some other
                                            good small fish to put with the barbs? thanks.
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4046 From: wendie Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Too funny....
                                            LOL that's one of my worries!!
                                            Wendie


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: questnjurny [mailto:questnjurny@...]
                                            Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 5:14 PM
                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Too funny....


                                            Just had to share, esp after the posts a little while ago on cats and
                                            tanks. Woke up early this morning to a loud CRACK, SPLASH, then a wet
                                            cat running across the bed. Seems that Rodeo, one of my cats decided
                                            that a good place to hang out was on top of the 10gallon planted tank,
                                            which has two pieces of sliding glass for a cover. One of the pieces
                                            of glass broke under his oh-so-svelte body and we had one cat swimming
                                            amongst the platies. When I finally found him in his hiding spot, he
                                            was wet from head to tail. I somehow don't think that he will be
                                            sitting on top of anymore tanks, now I just have to convince the other
                                            two. The fish don't seem any worse for wear having a big white cat in
                                            their tank, but they did think it was time to eat being as we were all up.

                                            Carly






                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4047 From: utacutie Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Help, a little confused!!!
                                            Just tested my water...Here are the results:
                                            Nitrite: less than .25
                                            Ammonia: about 1.5

                                            Heres comes the confusion..Just yesterday when I tested the water,
                                            the Nitrite was at 2, and ammonia was at 1.5. I did top off the
                                            water that had evaporated today, so I don't know if this could have
                                            anything to do with the nitrite dropping..but I wouldn't think it
                                            would drop like that, especially since the ammonia is still the same
                                            as it was yesterday..any comments/suggestions on what is going on?
                                            Thanks,

                                            Erin
                                            29g tank (still cycling)
                                            1 tiger barb
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4048 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                            Answers:

                                            1. No more than any other tank might.
                                            2. What works best for you.
                                            3. At your local fish store.

                                            Why acrylic over glass? Acrylic is far easier to scratch, and then it will
                                            take a lot of work to remove the scratch, unless it is a deep one, and then
                                            you might as well write off the tank. On the other hand, glass can break,
                                            but it will break far less often than acrylic will scratch. Glass will also
                                            scratch, but it takes a lot more effort to scratch than acrylic. Be sure to
                                            ask whoever you talk with about scratch removal. I've heard a lot of people
                                            claim to have never scratched theirs, yet, most of the time I will get a
                                            chance to see the tank and it will have at least light scratching in it.

                                            \\Steve//

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: ron44852000 [mailto:ron44852000@...]
                                            Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:03 AM
                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Acrylic Fish Tanks


                                            I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or larger Acrylic Tank. I
                                            now have a 3 questions -
                                            1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                            2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                            3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase Acrylic tanks? I
                                            reside in the Toronto area.
                                            Ron






                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4049 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Kuli Loaches?
                                            Anyone know about Kuli Loaches? I can't find any info online..I
                                            just got 3 small ones...
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4050 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                            what do you want to know about them? i've kept them for years....
                                            amalthea
                                            On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:06 PM, robdar4609 wrote:

                                            > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find any info online..I
                                            > just got 3 small ones...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
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                                            ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4051 From: ron44852000 Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                            <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                            > Answers:
                                            >
                                            > 1. No more than any other tank might.
                                            > 2. What works best for you.
                                            > 3. At your local fish store.
                                            >
                                            > Why acrylic over glass? Acrylic is far easier to scratch, and then
                                            it will
                                            > take a lot of work to remove the scratch, unless it is a deep one,
                                            and then
                                            > you might as well write off the tank. On the other hand, glass can
                                            break,
                                            > but it will break far less often than acrylic will scratch. Glass
                                            will also
                                            > scratch, but it takes a lot more effort to scratch than acrylic. Be
                                            sure to
                                            > ask whoever you talk with about scratch removal. I've heard a lot
                                            of people
                                            > claim to have never scratched theirs, yet, most of the time I will
                                            get a
                                            > chance to see the tank and it will have at least light scratching
                                            in it.
                                            >
                                            > \\Steve//
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: ron44852000 [mailto:ron44852000@y...]
                                            > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:03 AM
                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or larger Acrylic Tank.
                                            I
                                            > now have a 3 questions -
                                            > 1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                            > 2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                            > 3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase Acrylic tanks? I
                                            > reside in the Toronto area.
                                            > Ron
                                            >
                                            >The reason I was thinking about acrylic tank is because they are
                                            lighter so I would have an easier time handling it, plus I live in a
                                            condo and if a 75 gallon tank every busted that would be alot of
                                            water damage to my condo and the one blow me. I didn't know of anyone
                                            that had an acrylic tank so I thought I would get a few people
                                            opinion on them
                                            Ron
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4052 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/7/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Live plant question
                                            That's pretty much up to you!.
                                            Any of the things you mentioned are fine to do. I'd replant the ends
                                            until you have enough and then start chopping off. I personally don't
                                            like plants growing across the top and blocking out the light for the
                                            other plants, so I tend to prune back, replant when necessary and give
                                            to friends when I don't want the cuts anymore.

                                            Most stem plants will re-grow roots from cuttings.

                                            Tim



                                            On 08/08/2004, at 2:26 AM, jd7152 wrote:

                                            > I'm somewhat new to Aquarium keeping. When my live cabomba plants
                                            > grow to the top of the water, do I cut them off and replant the end,
                                            > or just let them keep growing? Or cut and discard the ones that are
                                            > growing to long? I've never had live plants in a tank. They are
                                            > looking good but also growing good too?  help if you can..tank is a
                                            > 20 hex, but planning a 55 gal soon with bala sharks in it. Any tips
                                            > on bala sharks, like water, how many, feeding, what other fish to
                                            > keep with them?
                                            >
                                            > thanks in advance.
                                            > george
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4053 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: my last post on dyed fish
                                            not at all, i just appreciate them, and i am against
                                            putting small business out of business by people who
                                            think that one product that they do not believe in
                                            should make them hit small business in the wallet. if
                                            you don't like them don't buy them.

                                            --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                            wrote:

                                            > Paul, There is nothing "extremist" about me I am
                                            > just a long time hobbyist who cares about fish and
                                            > nature, the legality has no bearing on the issue, it
                                            > is more the morality of the issue, it seams to me
                                            > that you are just trying to justify the sale of
                                            > these fish because you are exploiting them yourself
                                            > ?
                                            > regards,
                                            > unclenorm.
                                            > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                            > this guy is a perfect example of what i was refering
                                            > to when i said "extremist". there is no reason to
                                            > boycott a store because of one species of fish,
                                            > which
                                            > is legal. in california they are not legal, so i
                                            > don't have to worry about it, but small fish stores
                                            > may have to carry them to compete with chain stores
                                            > in
                                            > other parts of teh country, and it would not be good
                                            > for anyone for the small shops to go under. it
                                            > would
                                            > be one thing to boycott the specific fish, but to
                                            > try
                                            > and put people out of business is just lame.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > whatever reason or excuse people use to justify
                                            > > these unnatural fish they are natural fish that
                                            > have
                                            > > been tampered with in one way or another to become
                                            > > freaks full stop. All genuine hobbyists should
                                            > shun
                                            > > them like the plague and stop patronising shops
                                            > that
                                            > > sell them as these people obviously do not care
                                            > > about the fish only about making money. If all
                                            > good
                                            > > hobbyists boycotted these shops they would soon
                                            > mend
                                            > > there ways or go out of business. It's called '
                                            > the
                                            > > power of the people' use it !!.
                                            > > regards,
                                            > > unclenorm.
                                            > >
                                            > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                            > > i have not found anything stating that fish are
                                            > > dipped
                                            > > in acid to be dyed. i hae found several
                                            > non-animal
                                            > > rights sites that do stipulate that the life span
                                            > of
                                            > > injected fish is decreased, and that only 10%
                                            > retain
                                            > > color. in addition, everything hat i have found
                                            > on
                                            > > the solid color skirts, such as strawberry, blue
                                            > > berry, purple, red, etc is that they are fed food
                                            > > containing dye from the time that they hatch, so
                                            > > that
                                            > > they are fully permiated with the dyes. suppliers
                                            > > that i have spoken with also stipulate that in
                                            > > addition to being fed dyed foods, they are also
                                            > kept
                                            > > in dyed water in some instances. my main point
                                            > for
                                            > > playing devil's advocate here is that new keepers
                                            > > should not be scared away from fish that they like
                                            > > because of horror stories that may or may not be
                                            > > true.
                                            > > i have not found any indications that acid is
                                            > used,
                                            > > and from my 15 years of experience, any time that
                                            > a
                                            > > fish loses its slime coat, it ends up dead.
                                            > burning
                                            > > it off with acid would leave it far to open to
                                            > > bacterial and parasitic infections for it to be a
                                            > > financially worth while venture, not to meaantion
                                            > > that
                                            > > the shear shock of the fish would more than
                                            > liekley
                                            > > kill it. As for the store that i work in, we do
                                            > not
                                            > > carry the injected fish, only those fed dye or
                                            > that
                                            > > swim in dye. they are not harmed by this, and i
                                            > > have
                                            > > never seen them lost due to a shortened life span,
                                            > > only to beginners negligence and accidents. all
                                            > of
                                            > > the ones that i have kept have lived at least 4
                                            > > years.
                                            > > i do agree that the injecting of the fish is
                                            > > inhumane
                                            > > and uncalled for, but i still think that a little
                                            > > more
                                            > > complete research should be done before riumors
                                            > are
                                            > > perpetuated.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4054 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Help, a little confused!!!
                                            nitrite will be diluted by the top off, and it is
                                            converted into nitrate, but should not be that drastic
                                            of a change. that tank is obviously in cycle, as
                                            amonia should be lower than that, and a nitrite of 2
                                            has been converted from higgher amonia.

                                            --- utacutie <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                            > Just tested my water...Here are the results:
                                            > Nitrite: less than .25
                                            > Ammonia: about 1.5
                                            >
                                            > Heres comes the confusion..Just yesterday when I
                                            > tested the water,
                                            > the Nitrite was at 2, and ammonia was at 1.5. I did
                                            > top off the
                                            > water that had evaporated today, so I don't know if
                                            > this could have
                                            > anything to do with the nitrite dropping..but I
                                            > wouldn't think it
                                            > would drop like that, especially since the ammonia
                                            > is still the same
                                            > as it was yesterday..any comments/suggestions on
                                            > what is going on?
                                            > Thanks,
                                            >
                                            > Erin
                                            > 29g tank (still cycling)
                                            > 1 tiger barb
                                            >
                                            >





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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4055 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: breeding albino aeneus corydoras
                                            both times that my albinos have bred, there has not
                                            been a heater in place in the tank, and the temp was
                                            in the low 70's. they also require the stress level
                                            to be low and the water quality high for breeding.

                                            --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                            > Hi,
                                            > In my experience and from what I've read,
                                            > Coradoras' breed according to an evolutionary
                                            > mechanism that causes spawning when snow-melt, as
                                            > warmer weather approaches, begins cooling their
                                            > water environment. The two Cory types that bred in
                                            > my aquarium were Aeneus, and Paleatus. In my
                                            > aquarium, the breeding was not associated with times
                                            > of the year, but lower water temperatures, so that
                                            > breeding could occur at any time of the year. I
                                            > don't know if Albino Corys will behave as the types
                                            > mentioned above. I did'nt record the water
                                            > temperatures at the time of breeding, but you don't
                                            > need to do anything radical. The temperature changes
                                            > that occured in my apartment were associated with
                                            > having adequate heating in the tank, and during
                                            > summer, with an air-conditioner going all summer
                                            > long, cooler days would cause a drop in the average
                                            > temperature of 77 or 78 degrees. If my memory
                                            > serves, colder days in winter could cause a drop as
                                            > the heater catches up with a cold-spell.
                                            > Joe P
                                            >
                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                            >
                                            > > can anyone tell me how to make albino aeneus
                                            > corydoras spawn? thanks!
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >




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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4056 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
                                            you would be asking for trouble. try to keep the
                                            barbs in larger odd numbered schools, above 5, and
                                            they tend to be calmer in my experience.

                                            --- pontius2000 <pontius2000@...> wrote:

                                            > I'm wondering if ONE convict cichlid will get along
                                            > with 5 or 6 tiger
                                            > barbs? I was worried that the convict may be a
                                            > problem, but after
                                            > watching a tank full of tigers at a lfs, I think the
                                            > tiger barbs may
                                            > be nastier than the convicts. but at least the
                                            > convict will be much
                                            > larger than the barbs, so will it be able to hold
                                            > it's own, or would
                                            > I be asking for trouble by mixing the two? also,
                                            > what are some other
                                            > good small fish to put with the barbs? thanks.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >




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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4057 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                            Are they compatible with most other fish? What not to mix with them,
                                            etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about them? how big do
                                            they get? The lfs I got it from told me a few inches, but I wasn't
                                            confident he knew for sure..just double checking for some background
                                            on these guys..I really like them..I have them in my 10-gallon right
                                            now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add something else at
                                            some point...thanks


                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                            <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                            > what do you want to know about them? i've kept them for years....
                                            > amalthea
                                            > On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:06 PM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find any info online..I
                                            > > just got 3 small ones...
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            > Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4058 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                            i have not, in my experience, found any fish that they weren't
                                            compatible with, not even a vicious crayfish.
                                            if you keep them, you must have some kind of tank decor, like a stone
                                            or other decoration, that they can burrow under. if there is nowhere
                                            for them to hide, they will not be happy. they can get, when HUGE about
                                            the thickness of a woman's pinky finger and maybe 5 inches.
                                            they won't be eating your other fish though, don't worry about that.
                                            they mostly eat anything that falls to the bottom of the tank. they're
                                            pretty efficient that way.
                                            basically, keep the water clean, make sure they have a place to hide,
                                            and they're happy.
                                            one more thing of note, make sure that if you have small ones, you have
                                            a safety screen on the intake of your filter because some of them are
                                            tremendously curious and will get sucked right up the intake while
                                            looking for a cave. also, it is neither odd to find them swimming in
                                            loops around during the day, nor to have some that will hide almost all
                                            the time. they come in several colors, and are, in general, a great
                                            fish to keep.
                                            i hope that helps! if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to
                                            ask.
                                            amalthea
                                            On Aug 8, 2004, at 3:58 AM, robdar4609 wrote:

                                            > Are they compatible with most other fish? What not to mix with them,
                                            > etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about them?  how big do
                                            > they get?  The lfs I got it from told me a few inches, but I wasn't
                                            > confident he knew for sure..just double checking for some background
                                            > on these guys..I really like them..I have them in my 10-gallon right
                                            > now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add something else at
                                            > some point...thanks
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                            > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                            > > what do you want to know about them? i've kept them for years....
                                            > > amalthea
                                            > > On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:06 PM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find any info online..I
                                            > > >  just got 3 small ones...
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            > >       Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            > > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            > > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >         
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                            >
                                            > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                            >  
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                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >  
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                                            > Service.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4059 From: jd7152 Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
                                            It is possible for these fish to get along with Tiger Barbs. (in my
                                            opinion anyway)...

                                            The Tiger Barb should be kept in groups of 8 and might be compatible
                                            with Bala Shark, Bosemani Rainbow, Cherry Barb, Clown Loach, Dwarf
                                            Neon Rainbow, GloFish, Kuhli Loach, Kissing Gourami, Molly, Pearl
                                            Gourami, Platy, Pleco, Rainbow Shark, Red Tailed Shark, Rosy Barb,
                                            Sailfin Molly, Swordtail, Tin Foil Barb, Three Spot Gourami,
                                            Upsidedown Catfish, Zebra Danio,

                                            > I'm wondering if ONE convict cichlid will get along with 5 or 6
                                            tiger
                                            > barbs? I was worried that the convict may be a problem, but after
                                            > watching a tank full of tigers at a lfs, I think the tiger barbs may
                                            > be nastier than the convicts. but at least the convict will be much
                                            > larger than the barbs, so will it be able to hold it's own, or would
                                            > I be asking for trouble by mixing the two? also, what are some other
                                            > good small fish to put with the barbs? thanks.
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4060 From: BOEDI SANTOSO Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                            kuhli loach or pangio kuhli
                                            this fish is mostly wild cought originally from south
                                            east asia region with ph requirement 6.5- 7.5 hardness
                                            5-6d,(german measurement), suitable temp 28-30 degree
                                            celcius, can growth up to max size of 3".

                                            Environment like abit acid water with some fresh water
                                            plant, sand area and some bog wood.

                                            Become active at knight and like to hide most of the
                                            day eccept when chasing food.

                                            can be mixed with any fish accept the predatory one
                                            such as cichlid, polypterus etc.

                                            rgds
                                            bssbs
                                            (wild cought fish exporter)


                                            --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                            > i have not, in my experience, found any fish that
                                            > they weren't
                                            > compatible with, not even a vicious crayfish.
                                            > if you keep them, you must have some kind of tank
                                            > decor, like a stone
                                            > or other decoration, that they can burrow under. if
                                            > there is nowhere
                                            > for them to hide, they will not be happy. they can
                                            > get, when HUGE about
                                            > the thickness of a woman's pinky finger and maybe 5
                                            > inches.
                                            > they won't be eating your other fish though, don't
                                            > worry about that.
                                            > they mostly eat anything that falls to the bottom of
                                            > the tank. they're
                                            > pretty efficient that way.
                                            > basically, keep the water clean, make sure they have
                                            > a place to hide,
                                            > and they're happy.
                                            > one more thing of note, make sure that if you have
                                            > small ones, you have
                                            > a safety screen on the intake of your filter because
                                            > some of them are
                                            > tremendously curious and will get sucked right up
                                            > the intake while
                                            > looking for a cave. also, it is neither odd to find
                                            > them swimming in
                                            > loops around during the day, nor to have some that
                                            > will hide almost all
                                            > the time. they come in several colors, and are, in
                                            > general, a great
                                            > fish to keep.
                                            > i hope that helps! if you have any further
                                            > questions, don't hesitate to
                                            > ask.
                                            > amalthea
                                            > On Aug 8, 2004, at 3:58 AM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Are they compatible with most other fish? What not
                                            > to mix with them,
                                            > > etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about
                                            > them?  how big do
                                            > > they get?  The lfs I got it from told me a few
                                            > inches, but I wasn't
                                            > > confident he knew for sure..just double checking
                                            > for some background
                                            > > on these guys..I really like them..I have them in
                                            > my 10-gallon right
                                            > > now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add
                                            > something else at
                                            > > some point...thanks
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In
                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > amalthea23
                                            > > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                            > > > what do you want to know about them? i've kept
                                            > them for years....
                                            > > > amalthea
                                            > > > On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:06 PM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find
                                            > any info online..I
                                            > > > >  just got 3 small ones...
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            > > >       Available exclusively through Amalthea's
                                            > Attic
                                            > > > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            > > > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >         
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            > >
                                            > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                            > > <yhoo0504_testa_300250a052604.gif>
                                            > > <l.gif>
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                            > >  
                                            > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                            > to:
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >  
                                            > > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                            > Yahoo! Terms of
                                            > > Service.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            > Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            >

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                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4061 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                            oh. And cover the tank. They jump.
                                            Tim



                                            On 08/08/2004, at 9:00 PM, BOEDI SANTOSO wrote:

                                            > kuhli loach or pangio kuhli
                                            > this fish is mostly wild cought originally from south
                                            > east asia region with ph requirement 6.5- 7.5 hardness
                                            > 5-6d,(german measurement), suitable temp 28-30 degree
                                            > celcius, can growth up to max size of 3".
                                            >
                                            > Environment like abit acid water with some fresh water
                                            > plant, sand area and some bog wood.
                                            >
                                            > Become active at knight and like to hide most of the
                                            > day eccept when chasing food.
                                            >
                                            > can be mixed with any fish accept the predatory one
                                            > such as cichlid, polypterus etc.
                                            >
                                            > rgds
                                            > bssbs
                                            > (wild cought fish exporter)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                            > > i have not, in my experience, found any fish that
                                            > > they weren't 
                                            > > compatible with, not even a vicious crayfish.
                                            > > if you keep them, you must have some kind of tank
                                            > > decor, like a stone 
                                            > > or other decoration, that they can burrow under. if
                                            > > there is nowhere 
                                            > > for them to hide, they will not be happy. they can
                                            > > get, when HUGE about 
                                            > > the thickness of a woman's pinky finger and maybe 5
                                            > > inches.
                                            > > they won't be eating your other fish though, don't
                                            > > worry about that. 
                                            > > they mostly eat anything that falls to the bottom of
                                            > > the tank. they're 
                                            > > pretty efficient that way.
                                            > > basically, keep the water clean, make sure they have
                                            > > a place to hide, 
                                            > > and they're happy.
                                            > > one more thing of note, make sure that if you have
                                            > > small ones, you have 
                                            > > a safety screen on the intake of your filter because
                                            > > some of them are 
                                            > > tremendously curious and will get sucked right up
                                            > > the intake while 
                                            > > looking for a cave. also, it is neither odd to find
                                            > > them swimming in 
                                            > > loops around during the day, nor to have some that
                                            > > will hide almost all 
                                            > > the time. they come in several colors, and are, in
                                            > > general, a great 
                                            > > fish to keep.
                                            > > i hope that helps! if you have any further
                                            > > questions, don't hesitate to 
                                            > > ask.
                                            > > amalthea
                                            > > On Aug 8, 2004, at 3:58 AM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > Are they compatible with most other fish? What not
                                            > > to mix with them,
                                            > > >  etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about
                                            > > them?  how big do
                                            > > >  they get?  The lfs I got it from told me a few
                                            > > inches, but I wasn't
                                            > > >  confident he knew for sure..just double checking
                                            > > for some background
                                            > > >  on these guys..I really like them..I have them in
                                            > > my 10-gallon right
                                            > > >  now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add
                                            > > something else at
                                            > > >  some point...thanks
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >  --- In
                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > > amalthea23
                                            > > >  <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                            > > >  > what do you want to know about them? i've kept
                                            > > them for years....
                                            > > >  > amalthea
                                            > > >  > On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:06 PM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                            > > >  >
                                            > > >  > > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find
                                            > > any info online..I
                                            > > >  > >  just got 3 small ones...
                                            > > >  > >
                                            > > >  > >
                                            > > >  > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            > > >  >       Available exclusively through Amalthea's
                                            > > Attic
                                            > > >  > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            > > >  > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >         
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                            > > > <yhoo0504_testa_300250a052604.gif>
                                            > > > <l.gif>
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > >
                                            > > >       •       To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                            > > >  
                                            > > >       •       To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                            > > to:
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > >  
                                            > > >       •       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                            > > Yahoo! Terms of 
                                            > > > Service.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                            > >       Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                            > > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                            > > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                            > > 
                                            >
                                            > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                                            > http://au.movies.yahoo.com
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                                            >
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4062 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                             
                                            We have 3 tanks and they are all acrylic. No they don't smell any different to a glass tank. We have built in filters and on our 100 litre for extra filtration we have a fluval.I can't answer where to get them because i am in the UK......lol. I think the only down side to having an acrylic is they scratch easier.
                                             
                                             
                                            Sarah & Tony
                                            -------Original Message-------
                                             
                                            Date: 08/07/04 14:03:23
                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                             
                                              I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or larger Acrylic Tank.  I
                                            now have a 3 questions -
                                            1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                            2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                            3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase Acrylic tanks?  I
                                            reside in the Toronto area.
                                            Ron
                                             
                                             
                                             
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                                            .
                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4063 From: Patrick Date: 8/8/2004
                                            Subject: Re: dyed fish - boycott?
                                            Attachments :
                                                  The larger chain stores carry dyed fish as far as I know, so when they take over where the little guy was run out of business, what are you going to do?  Boycotts don't work on chain stores, they have been tried for years.  Boycott the product if you have to, not the store, unless the individual store is acting against the law or doing something that could harm society.  Boycotts are very powerful tools that shouldn't be thrown around. 
                                              Patrick N.
                                              About my tanks:  
                                              29 gallon tank.
                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                              10 gallon tank.
                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4064 From: harry perry Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
                                              There seems to be some interest in this group in the Badis Badis Species. May I post a link to my group on this species. Thanks
                                               
                                              Harry


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                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4065 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                              Loaches.com is a great site for info on any type of loach

                                              http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/kloach.html


                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "robdar4609" <robdar4609@...>

                                              Are they compatible with most other fish? What not to mix with them,
                                              etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about them? how big do
                                              they get? The lfs I got it from told me a few inches, but I wasn't
                                              confident he knew for sure..just double checking for some background
                                              on these guys..I really like them..I have them in my 10-gallon right
                                              now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add something else at
                                              some point...thanks
                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4066 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                              many thanks to all who replied, this is all great stuff!

                                              c


                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                              Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                              > Loaches.com is a great site for info on any type of loach
                                              >
                                              > http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/kloach.html
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "robdar4609" <robdar4609@y...>
                                              >
                                              > Are they compatible with most other fish? What not to mix with
                                              them,
                                              > etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about them? how big do
                                              > they get? The lfs I got it from told me a few inches, but I
                                              wasn't
                                              > confident he knew for sure..just double checking for some
                                              background
                                              > on these guys..I really like them..I have them in my 10-gallon
                                              right
                                              > now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add something else
                                              at
                                              > some point...thanks
                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4067 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                              Different colors and patterns are actually different species. Pangio kuhlii is the common, banded kuhli seen at lfs. Albinos are P. myersi, black kuhlis are P. Javanicus.
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: amalthea23

                                              they come in several colors, and are, in general, a great fish to keep.
                                              i hope that helps! if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask.
                                              amalthea
                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4068 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: dyed fish - boycott?
                                              right on

                                              --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                              > The larger chain stores carry dyed fish as far
                                              > as I know, so when they
                                              > take over where the little guy was run out of
                                              > business, what are you going
                                              > to do? Boycotts don't work on chain stores, they
                                              > have been tried for years.
                                              > Boycott the product if you have to, not the store,
                                              > unless the individual
                                              > store is acting against the law or doing something
                                              > that could harm society.
                                              > Boycotts are very powerful tools that shouldn't be
                                              > thrown around.
                                              > Patrick N.
                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                              > About my tanks:
                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                              > albino and 3 juli
                                              > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                              > gourami. I do not
                                              > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                              > keepers!
                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                              > 6.4.
                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                              > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                              > June.
                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                              > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




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                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4069 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                              for fresh water acrylic is ok, but the tanks can warp
                                              with the high heat out put of the lights used on
                                              marine reefs.

                                              --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > We have 3 tanks and they are all acrylic. No they
                                              > don't smell any different
                                              > to a glass tank. We have built in filters and on our
                                              > 100 litre for extra
                                              > filtration we have a fluval.I can't answer where to
                                              > get them because i am in
                                              > the UK......lol. I think the only down side to
                                              > having an acrylic is they
                                              > scratch easier.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sarah & Tony
                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                              >
                                              > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Date: 08/07/04 14:03:23
                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Acrylic
                                              > Fish Tanks
                                              >
                                              > I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or
                                              > larger Acrylic Tank. I
                                              > now have a 3 questions -
                                              > 1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                              > 2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                              > 3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase
                                              > Acrylic tanks? I
                                              > reside in the Toronto area.
                                              > Ron
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4070 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks

                                                    Acrylic tanks need a flat surface to fit the entire bottom, as they will bulge, not like glass tanks that need a support along the edges of the plastic rim. A major LFS in our area does not carry acrylic tanks and will not order them.

                                                                   Jo P

                                              -------------- Original message --------------
                                              We have 3 tanks and they are all acrylic. No they don't smell any different to a glass tank. We have built in filters and on our 100 litre for extra filtration we have a fluval.I can't answer where to get them because i am in the UK......lol. I think the only down side to having an acrylic is they scratch easier.
                                              Sarah & Tony
                                              -------Original Message-------
                                              Date: 08/07/04 14:03:23
                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                              I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or larger Acrylic Tank. I
                                              now have a 3 questions -
                                              1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                              2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                              3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase Acrylic tanks? I
                                              reside in the Toronto area.
                                              Ron
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                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4071 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                              In a message dated 8/7/2004 11:06:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robdar4609@... writes:

                                              Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find any info online..I
                                              just got 3 small ones...


                                              That's because it's spelled wrong. *grin* Sorry, I'm a spelling geek, I was one of the kids in school that kept winning Spelling Bees and such. I see something spelled once or twice, and commit it to memory.

                                              Anywho. Correct spelling is Kuhli Loaches.

                                              Try a search on that, should get some results. Good luck!
                                              Erin
                                              CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

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                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4072 From: Patrick Date: 8/8/2004
                                              Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                              Attachments :
                                                I have heard that acrylic holds heat in better than glass, but don't know for sure.  I have also heard that scratches are easier to remove from acrylic than glass.  They can come in more shapes than glass. 
                                                 
                                                Patrick N.
                                                About my tanks:  
                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4073 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                The shape is an advantage we have 2 bowed fronted ones and a biorb.
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                 
                                                Date: 08/08/04 19:58:13
                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                 
                                                I have heard that acrylic holds heat in better than glass, but don't know for sure.  I have also heard that scratches are easier to remove from acrylic than glass.  They can come in more shapes than glass. 
                                                 
                                                Patrick N.
                                                About my tanks:  
                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                 
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4074 From: Todd Fields Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                                --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches? I can't find any
                                                > info online..I
                                                > just got 3 small ones...

                                                What do you want to know? I've had one for a few
                                                months. Only see him about once a week, he hides the
                                                rest of the time. In fact every now and then I have
                                                to lift the rock he lives under because I get worried
                                                he's dead. But he's always there alive and kicking.

                                                There's another loach very similar to a Kuhlii Loach
                                                but they're not as nice looking (kind of brown and
                                                drabby.) I can't remember what they are called. But
                                                what they lack in looks they make up for in
                                                personalilty. I had one and he use to just spend days
                                                swimming back and forth through the bubbles from a
                                                bubble wand. Rarely hid. When he got sick and died I
                                                replaced him with the Kuhlii thinking it would be the
                                                same (only nicer looking.) Not so...



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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4075 From: Todd Fields Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                                --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                > Are they compatible with most other fish? What not
                                                > to mix with them,
                                                > etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about them?
                                                > how big do
                                                > they get? The lfs I got it from told me a few
                                                > inches, but I wasn't
                                                > confident he knew for sure..just double checking for
                                                > some background
                                                > on these guys..I really like them..I have them in my
                                                > 10-gallon right
                                                > now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add
                                                > something else at
                                                > some point...thanks
                                                >

                                                I think they get along with just about anything.
                                                Mine's been in with some Guppies, Neon Tetras,
                                                Otocinclus, African Dwarf Frog, and some snails. I've
                                                had some Ghost Shrimp in there before too. Never
                                                bothered anything.




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4076 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                they may hold in more heat as glass is a better
                                                conductor, and the acrylic has much smaller openeings,
                                                but glass comes in just about as many shapes if you
                                                are willing to pay for it. glass bowfronts go up to
                                                155 gallons, there are corner bows, hexes, and i have
                                                been hearing lately that there are some rounded corner
                                                tanks available now.


                                                --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                > I have heard that acrylic holds heat in better than
                                                > glass, but don't know
                                                > for sure. I have also heard that scratches are
                                                > easier to remove from
                                                > acrylic than glass. They can come in more shapes
                                                > than glass.
                                                >
                                                > Patrick N.
                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                > About my tanks:
                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                > albino and 3 juli
                                                > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                > gourami. I do not
                                                > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                > keepers!
                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                > 6.4.
                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                > June.
                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4077 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Live plant question
                                                You can replant the cobamba. Try to replant them in a
                                                bunch of say 5 - 6 stems and it will look very pretty.

                                                Bala Sharks : Sorry no experience with any sharks
                                                apart from red tail black shark which is a real
                                                beauty...SuNnY !

                                                --- jd7152 <garagedude55@...> wrote:

                                                > I'm somewhat new to Aquarium keeping. When my live
                                                > cabomba plants
                                                > grow to the top of the water, do I cut them off and
                                                > replant the end,
                                                > or just let them keep growing? Or cut and discard
                                                > the ones that are
                                                > growing to long? I've never had live plants in a
                                                > tank. They are
                                                > looking good but also growing good too? help if you
                                                > can..tank is a
                                                > 20 hex, but planning a 55 gal soon with bala sharks
                                                > in it. Any tips
                                                > on bala sharks, like water, how many, feeding, what
                                                > other fish to
                                                > keep with them?
                                                >
                                                > thanks in advance.
                                                > george
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                =====




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4078 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                In a message dated 8/8/2004 11:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, americanfishguy@... writes:
                                                I have heard that acrylic holds heat in better than glass, but don't know for sure.  I have also heard that scratches are easier to remove from acrylic than glass.  They can come in more shapes than glass. 
                                                 
                                                Patrick N.
                                                You can also dril, cut, and patch acrylic tanks.  If you want a stand pipe, just drill it, don't need that hole anymore?  Just get  a 1 dollar piece of plastic and acrylic cement and it is patched.  Want to make more return holes for filters or airlines, just drill or cut and you are done. 
                                                You guys that don't like acrylic please keep me in mind when you come across good deals on new and used ones, I will take em all.
                                                 
                                                Mike 
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4079 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                mike,
                                                what state are you in...?
                                                i have a 90 gallon tru vu with aquasystem
                                                that i am selling pretty cheap

                                                --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                >
                                                > In a message dated 8/8/2004 11:59:18 AM Pacific
                                                > Daylight Time,
                                                > americanfishguy@... writes:
                                                >
                                                > I have heard that acrylic holds heat in better than
                                                > glass, but don't know
                                                > for sure. I have also heard that scratches are
                                                > easier to remove from acrylic
                                                > than glass. They can come in more shapes than
                                                > glass.
                                                >
                                                > Patrick N.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > You can also dril, cut, and patch acrylic tanks. If
                                                > you want a stand pipe,
                                                > just drill it, don't need that hole anymore? Just
                                                > get a 1 dollar piece of
                                                > plastic and acrylic cement and it is patched. Want
                                                > to make more return holes
                                                > for filters or airlines, just drill or cut and you
                                                > are done.
                                                > You guys that don't like acrylic please keep me in
                                                > mind when you come across
                                                > good deals on new and used ones, I will take em all.
                                                >
                                                > Mike
                                                >




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4080 From: paul helms Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Live plant question
                                                bala sharks are not very hardy when they are young, so
                                                good water conditions are important. as they get
                                                larger they get tougher, but they do reach 12-14
                                                inches.

                                                --- sunil kamath <sunnyvks@...> wrote:

                                                > You can replant the cobamba. Try to replant them in
                                                > a
                                                > bunch of say 5 - 6 stems and it will look very
                                                > pretty.
                                                >
                                                > Bala Sharks : Sorry no experience with any sharks
                                                > apart from red tail black shark which is a real
                                                > beauty...SuNnY !
                                                >
                                                > --- jd7152 <garagedude55@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > I'm somewhat new to Aquarium keeping. When my live
                                                > > cabomba plants
                                                > > grow to the top of the water, do I cut them off
                                                > and
                                                > > replant the end,
                                                > > or just let them keep growing? Or cut and discard
                                                > > the ones that are
                                                > > growing to long? I've never had live plants in a
                                                > > tank. They are
                                                > > looking good but also growing good too? help if
                                                > you
                                                > > can..tank is a
                                                > > 20 hex, but planning a 55 gal soon with bala
                                                > sharks
                                                > > in it. Any tips
                                                > > on bala sharks, like water, how many, feeding,
                                                > what
                                                > > other fish to
                                                > > keep with them?
                                                > >
                                                > > thanks in advance.
                                                > > george
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > =====
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > got Fish? ~ do you Yahoo!? ~ I've got a group for
                                                > you!
                                                >
                                                >
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                >
                                                > stop by and see ~ membership is free!
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4081 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 8/8/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                In a message dated 8/8/2004 9:40:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                                mike,
                                                what state are you in...?
                                                i have a 90 gallon tru vu with aquasystem
                                                that i am selling pretty cheap
                                                Northern California,
                                                San Francisco East Bay
                                                 
                                                Mike
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4082 From: paul helms Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                me too, lol.
                                                well if you are interested in a tank that size let me
                                                know. very few scratches, and not bulging. running
                                                right now with a panther grouper in it.

                                                --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                >
                                                > In a message dated 8/8/2004 9:40:21 PM Pacific
                                                > Daylight Time,
                                                > wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                                >
                                                > mike,
                                                > what state are you in...?
                                                > i have a 90 gallon tru vu with aquasystem
                                                > that i am selling pretty cheap
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Northern California,
                                                > San Francisco East Bay
                                                >
                                                > Mike
                                                >




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4083 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: ethics and fish
                                                I wholeheartedly agree to disagree: it's healthy for the hobby and this group that different views are presented but not when it becomes more a political venue regarding petkeeping ethics. Things will eventually be resolved by personal and individual choices, thanks to intelligent debates but the enjoyment of the hobby will be lessened if there's too much debating.
                                                 
                                                Back to our pets!
                                                 
                                                Audrey, I'm still not sure if your gourami has fin rot and I have found otos more inclined to get sick than gouramis having kept both before. From what I've seen of fin rot, it usually starts from the edges, making the fin edges ragged and whitish and sometimes accompanied by bleeding. I'd opt that you observe him for a few more days. You can also choose to treat the tank with aquarium antiseptic (there are a few brands that can be applied at maintenance dosage rather than full strenght). If the male gourami and any of the other fishes do show definite signs of disease, either isolate and treat or treat the whole tank. Keep us posted!
                                                 
                                                Rod

                                                Audrey Archer <arch1574@...> wrote:
                                                  Wow, things are getting a little "snippy" on this group; maybe we need a separate site to debate all of the "ethical" issues, so those of us looking for advice and information and resources about our aquaria don't have to read the "flaming". Can't we all just agree to disagree? Perhaps none of us are "right" or "wrong"; just different.
                                                  All of us have different ethical values... some people would feel that the fact that we are keeping fish and other wildlife in confined, artifical environments is cruel in and of itself, but of course they wouldn't be on this group in the first place.
                                                  Still, we all probably run the gamut from trying to recreate the natural environment as closely as possible and only using wild caught fish to avoid inbreeding issues, to "anything goes as long as I can enjoy my hobby".
                                                  Some sacrifice their fish, killing them slowly to cycle their tanks, by subjecting them to high levels of toxic ammonia, and some of us choose to use fishless cycling and are saddened by any loss. I chose the latter path. And I would not personally choose a fish that was not naturally evolved, but that is just my choice. I also don't personally like fake plants... but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't have a right to choose Easter Egg fish, multicolor gravel, and day-glo plastic for their aquaria if that is their preference.

                                                  New subject: My male dwarf gourami has developed some tiny holes in his fin (the one along the top - dorsal?). It started with some faded spots the middle of this week, then one hole, then I saw two or three yesterday. The other inhabitants are 5 white clouds and a female dwarf gourami, so I don't think they are bites... besides, they are in the middle, not along the edges. His behavior is the same as always... chasing the poor female all over the tank, and working on his bubble nest, and coming to the glass to glare at me when I tend the tank. My water levels, before my weekly water change this morning, appear to be just fine: temp 76, pH 7.2, KH 180ppm, GH 120ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20ppm, Ammonia 0, iron 0.25 (a bit low , forgot to add Plant Gro last week), phosphate 1.0, dissolved O2 95%, calculated CO2 just under 20 ppm. But I am worried because I found my oto dead Monday morning, and am concerned my tank is infected with something. Is this "fin rot"? What causes this? Audrey



                                                        




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4084 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: ethics and fish
                                                I wholeheartedly agree to disagree: it's healthy for the hobby and this group that different views are presented but not when it becomes more a political venue regarding petkeeping ethics. Things will eventually be resolved by personal and individual choices, thanks to intelligent debates but the enjoyment of the hobby will be lessened if there's too much debating.
                                                 
                                                Back to our pets!
                                                 
                                                Audrey, I'm still not sure if your gourami has fin rot and I have found otos more inclined to get sick than gouramis having kept both before. From what I've seen of fin rot, it usually starts from the edges, making the fin edges ragged and whitish and sometimes accompanied by bleeding. I'd opt that you observe him for a few more days. You can also choose to treat the tank with aquarium antiseptic (there are a few brands that can be applied at maintenance dosage rather than full strenght). If the male gourami and any of the other fishes do show definite signs of disease, either isolate and treat or treat the whole tank. Keep us posted!
                                                 
                                                Rod

                                                Audrey Archer <arch1574@...> wrote:
                                                  Wow, things are getting a little "snippy" on this group; maybe we need a separate site to debate all of the "ethical" issues, so those of us looking for advice and information and resources about our aquaria don't have to read the "flaming". Can't we all just agree to disagree? Perhaps none of us are "right" or "wrong"; just different.
                                                  All of us have different ethical values... some people would feel that the fact that we are keeping fish and other wildlife in confined, artifical environments is cruel in and of itself, but of course they wouldn't be on this group in the first place.
                                                  Still, we all probably run the gamut from trying to recreate the natural environment as closely as possible and only using wild caught fish to avoid inbreeding issues, to "anything goes as long as I can enjoy my hobby".
                                                  Some sacrifice their fish, killing them slowly to cycle their tanks, by subjecting them to high levels of toxic ammonia, and some of us choose to use fishless cycling and are saddened by any loss. I chose the latter path. And I would not personally choose a fish that was not naturally evolved, but that is just my choice. I also don't personally like fake plants... but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't have a right to choose Easter Egg fish, multicolor gravel, and day-glo plastic for their aquaria if that is their preference.

                                                  New subject: My male dwarf gourami has developed some tiny holes in his fin (the one along the top - dorsal?). It started with some faded spots the middle of this week, then one hole, then I saw two or three yesterday. The other inhabitants are 5 white clouds and a female dwarf gourami, so I don't think they are bites... besides, they are in the middle, not along the edges. His behavior is the same as always... chasing the poor female all over the tank, and working on his bubble nest, and coming to the glass to glare at me when I tend the tank. My water levels, before my weekly water change this morning, appear to be just fine: temp 76, pH 7.2, KH 180ppm, GH 120ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20ppm, Ammonia 0, iron 0.25 (a bit low , forgot to add Plant Gro last week), phosphate 1.0, dissolved O2 95%, calculated CO2 just under 20 ppm. But I am worried because I found my oto dead Monday morning, and am concerned my tank is infected with something. Is this "fin rot"? What causes this? Audrey



                                                        



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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4085 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: badis
                                                A fellow aquarist excitedly told me about them when he spotted them in a local petshop, saying it was a rare find as the last time he saw it in a petshop was three years ago. RARE and DWARF and GOOD PARENTS made me buy them. Though they are precocious when it comes to food, I don't regret buying them and I think I'm the only one with three healthy pairs (and probably the only females in the batch).  I don't know how rare they are in your area: you might try fish clubs and websites to check for their availability.
                                                 
                                                Rod

                                                dorothy wheeler <duchess562000@...> wrote:
                                                Verry beautiful fish! Where do you find those beautiful fish? I have never seen them in any stores where I live.
                                                Dorothy

                                                "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...> wrote:

                                                Here's some pics of these little-known aquarium fishes. If you like small or dwarf species, you'll like these guys! :-)

                                                The first two pics are of Badis badis, the next two are of Badis siamensis, the last I think is Badis dario. Badis are also called chameleon fish because they are capable of extreme color changes. I only have siamensis, probably the smallest of the Badis genus, at 3 centimeters maximum body lenght for the male and 2 centimeters for the female. The male siamensis can go from ghostly metallic blue to fire-engine red, showing or not showing black speckles, depending upon the mood. The pictures I have do not do justice to the colors these fish are capable of displaying.

                                                Rod


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                                                > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/pjpeg name=030121-badis.jpg


                                                > ATTACHMENT part 3 image/pjpeg name=badis-mt.jpg


                                                > ATTACHMENT part 4 image/pjpeg name=badisbadissp.jpg


                                                > ATTACHMENT part 5 image/pjpeg name=Parry_1.jpg


                                                > ATTACHMENT part 6 image/pjpeg name=1201.jpg


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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4086 From: Daniel Brown Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Cleaning Gravel
                                                Hi,

                                                I just got a 2 foot long 2nd hand Aquarium from a friend that I want
                                                to set-up and get running as my first aquarium. My main conundrum at
                                                the moment is how to I clean the gravel that came with it? It has been
                                                used before and all the equipment and aquarium needed a good clean but
                                                I've no really idea about the best way to go about clean the bucket
                                                full of pea gravel!

                                                Any suggestions would be most welcome!

                                                Cheers,

                                                Daniel:

                                                PS: I'm new to the list and this is my first aquarium!
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4087 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants

                                                The most durable plants for beginners are anubias, Java moss, Java fern, many of the small cryptocorynes (none of the large, long ones or dwarfs), and Vallisneria and Sagitarria subulata. These should be able to get by on just 2-2.5 watts per gallon and sandy substrate.

                                                At 3-3.5 watts, you can grow green cabomba, elodea, hydrilla, lagarosiphon, najas, bacopa, limnophila sessiflora, ludwigia repens and hygrohila polysperma.

                                                Unless you're investing in a high-tech tank and rich substrate, stay away from aponogetons, the larger and dwarf Echinodoruses and Cryptocorynes, and red stem plants.

                                                Rod


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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4088 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 335
                                                > Audrey, I'm still not sure if your gourami has fin rot and I have found otos more inclined to get sick than gouramis having kept both before. From what I've seen of fin rot, it usually starts from the edges, making the fin edges ragged and whitish and sometimes accompanied by bleeding. I'd opt that you observe him for a few more days. You can also choose to treat the tank with aquarium antiseptic (there are a few brands that can be applied at maintenance dosage rather than full strenght). If the male gourami and any of the other fishes do show definite signs of disease, either isolate and treat or treat the whole tank. Keep us posted!
                                                >
                                                > Rod

                                                Thanks, Rod. Since I had been treating the tank with Melafix for a few days after the death of the oto (just in case), I waited until after completing that, then added one of those "tank-buddy" anti-fungal tabs. My hospice tank is recycling and not ready for inhabitants yet. (Had to sterilize it after putting the snails into my pond.) I had to take my filter cartridge out completely, since the carbon part is not removable... but left the filter running for O2 replenishment (maybe not necessary since I have so many plants, but...) Nobody seems the worse for that... all fish active and eating. Possibly he hurt himself dashing about the tank chasing the female...

                                                >Message: 15
                                                > Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:29:37 +1000
                                                > From: Tim Walker <twalker@...>
                                                >Subject: Re: Live plant question
                                                >
                                                >That's pretty much up to you!.
                                                >Any of the things you mentioned are fine to do. I'd replant the ends
                                                >until you have enough and then start chopping off. I personally don't
                                                >like plants growing across the top and blocking out the light for the
                                                >other plants, so I tend to prune back, replant when necessary and give
                                                >to friends when I don't want the cuts anymore.
                                                >
                                                >Most stem plants will re-grow roots from cuttings.
                                                >
                                                >Tim
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >On 08/08/2004, at 2:26 AM, jd7152 wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> I'm somewhat new to Aquarium keeping. When my live cabomba plants
                                                >> grow to the top of the water, do I cut them off and replant the end,
                                                >> or just let them keep growing? Or cut and discard the ones that are
                                                >> growing to long? I've never had live plants in a tank. They are
                                                >> looking good but also growing good too? help if you can..tank is a
                                                >> 20 hex, but planning a 55 gal soon with bala sharks in it. Any tips
                                                >> on bala sharks, like water, how many, feeding, what other fish to
                                                >> keep with them?
                                                >>
                                                >> thanks in advance.
                                                >> george

                                                George, I find that my cabomba forms roots at mid-water level as it gets too tall; I generally cut mine off a bit below the new roots, although I sometimes just bury the new rooted part.

                                                Audrey
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4089 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
                                                In a message dated 8/9/2004 7:51:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, la_rmarquezjr@... writes:

                                                Unless you're investing in a high-tech tank and rich substrate, stay away from aponogetons

                                                I've got "regular" multi-colored gravel as substrate, the lighting the same bulb type that came in the hood, and aponogeton plants. My plants are doing fine, in fact they are starting to get taller. The ones at the back near my bubble wall are about 6-8 inches tall with nice broad leaves, and the ones at the front of the tank are 4-6 inches tall, with broad leaves and some new leaves growing.

                                                They are tough little plants, and don't require any maintenance from me. I dropped the bulbs in, when they started sprouting I buried them under the gravel a little, and other than that I don't mess with them at all.
                                                Erin
                                                CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4090 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: CLEANING GRAVEL
                                                In a message dated 8/9/04 8:39:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                I've no really idea about the best way to go about clean the bucket
                                                full of pea gravel!  


                                                If there's only the normal amount of dirt in it, I used to put it in a five gallon plastic bucket, put a garden hose down to the bottom of the gravel, and turn the water on full blast.  I used hot to begin with, gradually switching to cold.  If you don't have an outside area, just put the bucket in the bath tub.  Oh - and if you don't have access to a garden hose hook-up, put the bucket under your tub spigot.

                                                You might want to stir the gravel occasionally to make sure you get all the dirt.  Stirring should also break loose any dirt that's stuck to the gravel.
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4091 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
                                                Well in my experience you will shortly have a convict and nothing else, as these fish are extremely aggressive even for cichlids and territorial. Convicts are better off with their own kind or other aggressive cichlids the same size or larger if not a convict. My convicts live in my turtle tank as its the only tank they can't kill the inhabitants but the turtles are afraid of them. But as with any other fish u could also wind up with a perfectly nice fish. One last consideration the convict will grow much faster than the barbs and quickly be several times larger than the barbs
                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: jd7152 [mailto:garagedude55@...]
                                                Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:07 PM
                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: are these fish compatible?

                                                It is possible for these fish to get along with Tiger Barbs. (in my
                                                opinion anyway)...

                                                The Tiger Barb should be kept in groups of 8 and might be compatible
                                                with Bala Shark, Bosemani Rainbow, Cherry Barb, Clown Loach, Dwarf
                                                Neon Rainbow, GloFish, Kuhli Loach, Kissing Gourami, Molly, Pearl
                                                Gourami, Platy, Pleco, Rainbow Shark, Red Tailed Shark, Rosy Barb,
                                                Sailfin Molly, Swordtail, Tin Foil Barb, Three Spot Gourami,
                                                Upsidedown Catfish, Zebra Danio,

                                                > I'm wondering if ONE convict cichlid will get along with 5 or 6
                                                tiger
                                                > barbs? I was worried that the convict may be a problem, but after
                                                > watching a tank full of tigers at a lfs, I think the tiger barbs may
                                                > be nastier than the convicts. but at least the convict will be much
                                                > larger than the barbs, so will it be able to hold it's own, or would
                                                > I be asking for trouble by mixing the two? also, what are some other
                                                > good small fish to put with the barbs? thanks.




                                                        



                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4092 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Cleaning Gravel
                                                You will need a bucket, and a place to keep the clean (or dirty gravel) and
                                                a source of running water. Since the gravel has been used before, I'd
                                                probably also sterilize it.

                                                Fill the bucket about 1/3 full of gravel and start the water running. Let
                                                the water overflow the bucket. While the water is running and overflowing,
                                                stir the gravel until the water from the bucket is running clear. Repeat
                                                until all the gravel is done.

                                                To sterilize it, fill the bucket about half full (so long as you can lift it
                                                and move it without it breaking (or you breaking). add about a cupful of
                                                bleach and fill to cover the gravel with water. Let sit for at least 24
                                                hours, and then rinse until you can no longer smell the bleach. Empty and
                                                repeat until your gravel has all been bleached. You plain old ordinary
                                                bleach, with no additives.

                                                You should also bleach the tank, as well as using a salt treatment when
                                                cleaning out the tank, prior to putting the gravel in the tank.

                                                The salt treatment is easy. When you are first cleaning the tank, put a
                                                couple of inches of water in it. Add salt to the water, 2 or three
                                                tablespoons should be enough. Then, using this water and a soft cloth, clean
                                                the tank. If there are water marks on the side glass, use vinegar to help
                                                remove the deposits. Once the tank has been cleaned, empty and rinse. Set
                                                the tank in the position you will have it, and add about 1/2 cup bleach.
                                                Fill the tank with water and let sit for at least 24 hours. Then empty the
                                                tank and rinse.

                                                If you got filters and heaters, etc. that will come in contact with the
                                                water (including a cover or a hood) give them the same treatment as above,
                                                though you can sit the filter and heater in the tank while it is bleaching.

                                                When you place the gravel in the tank, and fill it up, add a good quality
                                                dechlorinizer or chloromine remover, depending on your public water
                                                treatment methods, like Novaqua or Amquel, in the recommended amount to the
                                                tank. Then you are ready to start cycling the tank.

                                                \\Steve//

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Daniel Brown [mailto:mailinglists@...]
                                                Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:21 AM
                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Cleaning Gravel


                                                Hi,

                                                I just got a 2 foot long 2nd hand Aquarium from a friend that I want
                                                to set-up and get running as my first aquarium. My main conundrum at
                                                the moment is how to I clean the gravel that came with it? It has been
                                                used before and all the equipment and aquarium needed a good clean but
                                                I've no really idea about the best way to go about clean the bucket
                                                full of pea gravel!

                                                Any suggestions would be most welcome!

                                                Cheers,

                                                Daniel:

                                                PS: I'm new to the list and this is my first aquarium!







                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4093 From: Jeff Schultz Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: killifish
                                                Hi all,

                                                Would appreciate any info, links, or web sites on killifish. Would
                                                especially like links to reputable breeders. I have already seen aka
                                                sight. I am having a hard time finding actuall sights for info, fish
                                                or eggs. Many sights claim to have this but few do.

                                                Thanks all,

                                                Jeff Schultz
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4094 From: Bob Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Fish Are moveing too
                                                I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with us.
                                                We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank is 30-gallons
                                                and on a heavy wood base.
                                                My question is what will be the best way to move my fish and tank
                                                with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the fish over in
                                                the tank because the tank is heavy and has an oddball shape to it. I
                                                have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but could be in a few
                                                minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast and with out
                                                losing a fish.
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4095 From: roy sanchez Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                well i bought a jebo tank around 66 gallons made in china
                                                I love it the bow in the frt makes it look great
                                                glass can be heavy
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "ron44852000" <ron44852000@...>
                                                To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 12:28 AM
                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Acrylic Fish Tanks


                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                > <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                > > Answers:
                                                > >
                                                > > 1. No more than any other tank might.
                                                > > 2. What works best for you.
                                                > > 3. At your local fish store.
                                                > >
                                                > > Why acrylic over glass? Acrylic is far easier to scratch, and then
                                                > it will
                                                > > take a lot of work to remove the scratch, unless it is a deep one,
                                                > and then
                                                > > you might as well write off the tank. On the other hand, glass can
                                                > break,
                                                > > but it will break far less often than acrylic will scratch. Glass
                                                > will also
                                                > > scratch, but it takes a lot more effort to scratch than acrylic. Be
                                                > sure to
                                                > > ask whoever you talk with about scratch removal. I've heard a lot
                                                > of people
                                                > > claim to have never scratched theirs, yet, most of the time I will
                                                > get a
                                                > > chance to see the tank and it will have at least light scratching
                                                > in it.
                                                > >
                                                > > \\Steve//
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: ron44852000 [mailto:ron44852000@y...]
                                                > > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:03 AM
                                                > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Acrylic Fish Tanks
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > I am contemplating purchasing a 50 gallon or larger Acrylic Tank.
                                                > I
                                                > > now have a 3 questions -
                                                > > 1) Do acrylic tanks create any foul odours?
                                                > > 2) What is the best filter system to install?
                                                > > 3) Where is the best place to view &/or purchase Acrylic tanks? I
                                                > > reside in the Toronto area.
                                                > > Ron
                                                > >
                                                > >The reason I was thinking about acrylic tank is because they are
                                                > lighter so I would have an easier time handling it, plus I live in a
                                                > condo and if a 75 gallon tank every busted that would be alot of
                                                > water damage to my condo and the one blow me. I didn't know of anyone
                                                > that had an acrylic tank so I thought I would get a few people
                                                > opinion on them
                                                > Ron
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4096 From: paul helms Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                no, if you try to move the tank with water in it, it
                                                will shatter and cut you, or in the case of acryllic
                                                crack open. best way to do it is to go to a hardware
                                                store and buy new, clean garbage cans (35 gallon) for
                                                about 8 bucks. transfer water into that along with
                                                large decorations. bag all of the fish, it is best to
                                                get back from your lfa as they are easier to put air
                                                into than a zip lock. move the tank as empty as
                                                possible, but save all water (even the dark stuff,
                                                that is bascteria rich). setup trghe tank, and refill
                                                it with the original water. be sure to reacclimate
                                                your fish to the tank as the temperature will be
                                                different, and the chemistry can be a little off after
                                                the move as well. run the tank lights out for a full
                                                24 hours to reduce stress on the fish.

                                                --- Bob <Ferretbob@...> wrote:

                                                > I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with
                                                > us.
                                                > We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank
                                                > is 30-gallons
                                                > and on a heavy wood base.
                                                > My question is what will be the best way to move my
                                                > fish and tank
                                                > with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the
                                                > fish over in
                                                > the tank because the tank is heavy and has an
                                                > oddball shape to it. I
                                                > have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but
                                                > could be in a few
                                                > minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast
                                                > and with out
                                                > losing a fish.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4097 From: wendie Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                That's just the way I moved mine several times without
                                                having any problems. It was an hour's ride for us one
                                                way so it worked out well. I used a large garbage can
                                                made of plastic.

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:43 PM
                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too


                                                no, if you try to move the tank with water in it, it
                                                will shatter and cut you, or in the case of acryllic
                                                crack open. best way to do it is to go to a hardware
                                                store and buy new, clean garbage cans (35 gallon) for
                                                about 8 bucks. transfer water into that along with
                                                large decorations. bag all of the fish, it is best to
                                                get back from your lfa as they are easier to put air
                                                into than a zip lock. move the tank as empty as
                                                possible, but save all water (even the dark stuff,
                                                that is bascteria rich). setup trghe tank, and refill
                                                it with the original water. be sure to reacclimate
                                                your fish to the tank as the temperature will be
                                                different, and the chemistry can be a little off after
                                                the move as well. run the tank lights out for a full
                                                24 hours to reduce stress on the fish.

                                                --- Bob <Ferretbob@...> wrote:

                                                > I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with
                                                > us.
                                                > We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank
                                                > is 30-gallons
                                                > and on a heavy wood base.
                                                > My question is what will be the best way to move my
                                                > fish and tank
                                                > with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the
                                                > fish over in
                                                > the tank because the tank is heavy and has an
                                                > oddball shape to it. I
                                                > have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but
                                                > could be in a few
                                                > minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast
                                                > and with out
                                                > losing a fish.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >




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                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4098 From: AQUARIUMFISH Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                 well from my own experience from moving 3 times and this last time was over 300 miles... i have a 20 gallon long tank and when i moved i would take out all the decorations/plants so they dont get banged up on the objects and leave about 5 inches of water in the tank including the gravel with the fish still in the tank and mine never had any trouble ... course when moving its easier to clean and reset back up after the moving... i also made sure tho that i put in the aquarium salt to reduce the stress of the moving but my fish always done fine..   but then i moved 30 miles away with my fish in tank so yours will probably be fine....as long as you have air conditioning.
                                                 
                                                my opinion.
                                                 
                                                HUGS
                                                Gennifer
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                 
                                                Date: 08/09/04 22:32:09
                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too
                                                 
                                                I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with us.
                                                We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank is 30-gallons
                                                and on a heavy wood base.
                                                My question is what will be the best way to move my fish and tank
                                                with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the fish over in
                                                the tank because the tank is heavy and has an oddball shape to it. I
                                                have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but could be in a few
                                                minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast and with out
                                                losing a fish.





                                                        



                                                 
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4099 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/9/2004
                                                Subject: another pond question...
                                                our pond has about 40 square feet of surface area, a water fall and one
                                                of those dome fountains running as well as a hose drip off the side. i
                                                live in new york and the pond is in semi shade all day. can anyone here
                                                tell me if about 4" or so a day of evaporation is normal under these
                                                circumstances? i tried to no avail to find a leak today and i'm
                                                seriously beginning to think that i just have a lot of evaporation
                                                going on.
                                                anyone?
                                                amalthea
                                                Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                                Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                                http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                                ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4100 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: bone marrow
                                                i'm posting this to all of my yahoo groups please read it, act on it,
                                                and then send it everywhere you can think of where people may see it:
                                                Could everyone who reads this please contact your local hospital to
                                                find out how to get tested and entered into the national bone marrow
                                                registry, and then do it! i have a very dear friend who is gravely ill
                                                with leukemia and everyone who gets tested is another chance for her to
                                                live. PLEASE do this, you could save a life.
                                                amalthea
                                                Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                                Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                                http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                                ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4101 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                that is awesome that it worked out ok for you in that
                                                manner. it usually doesn't.
                                                --- AQUARIUMFISH <aquariumfish@...> wrote:

                                                > well from my own experience from moving 3 times and
                                                > this last time was over
                                                > 300 miles... i have a 20 gallon long tank and when i
                                                > moved i would take out
                                                > all the decorations/plants so they dont get banged
                                                > up on the objects and
                                                > leave about 5 inches of water in the tank including
                                                > the gravel with the fish
                                                > still in the tank and mine never had any trouble ...
                                                > course when moving its
                                                > easier to clean and reset back up after the
                                                > moving... i also made sure tho
                                                > that i put in the aquarium salt to reduce the stress
                                                > of the moving but my
                                                > fish always done fine.. but then i moved 30 miles
                                                > away with my fish in
                                                > tank so yours will probably be fine....as long as
                                                > you have air conditioning.
                                                >
                                                > my opinion.
                                                >
                                                > HUGS
                                                > Gennifer
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                >
                                                > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Date: 08/09/04 22:32:09
                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are
                                                > moveing too
                                                >
                                                > I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with
                                                > us.
                                                > We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank
                                                > is 30-gallons
                                                > and on a heavy wood base.
                                                > My question is what will be the best way to move my
                                                > fish and tank
                                                > with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the
                                                > fish over in
                                                > the tank because the tank is heavy and has an
                                                > oddball shape to it. I
                                                > have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but
                                                > could be in a few
                                                > minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast
                                                > and with out
                                                > losing a fish.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                > ADVERTISEMENT
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                                                >
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                                                >
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                                                >
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                                                > Terms of Service.
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                                                >
                                                >




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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4102 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                It can actually work for small tank. Especially Juwel which have a metal
                                                frame at the bottom. Juwel does not recommend putting any padding under the
                                                tank as the metal frame is supposed to hold the entire weight.

                                                Any tank bigger then that and with even a slightly weak bottom will easily
                                                give away while doing this. So one has to be very careful.

                                                Nim


                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                >Sent: 10 August 2004 08:43
                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too
                                                >
                                                >that is awesome that it worked out ok for you in that
                                                >manner. it usually doesn't.
                                                >--- AQUARIUMFISH <aquariumfish@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> well from my own experience from moving 3 times and
                                                >> this last time was over
                                                >> 300 miles... i have a 20 gallon long tank and when i
                                                >> moved i would take out
                                                >> all the decorations/plants so they dont get banged
                                                >> up on the objects and
                                                >> leave about 5 inches of water in the tank including
                                                >> the gravel with the fish
                                                >> still in the tank and mine never had any trouble ...
                                                >> course when moving its
                                                >> easier to clean and reset back up after the
                                                >> moving... i also made sure tho
                                                >> that i put in the aquarium salt to reduce the stress
                                                >> of the moving but my
                                                >> fish always done fine.. but then i moved 30 miles
                                                >> away with my fish in
                                                >> tank so yours will probably be fine....as long as
                                                >> you have air conditioning.
                                                >>
                                                >> my opinion.
                                                >>
                                                >> HUGS
                                                >> Gennifer
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> -------Original Message-------
                                                >>
                                                >> From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >> Date: 08/09/04 22:32:09
                                                >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are
                                                >> moveing too
                                                >>
                                                >> I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with
                                                >> us.
                                                >> We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank
                                                >> is 30-gallons
                                                >> and on a heavy wood base.
                                                >> My question is what will be the best way to move my
                                                >> fish and tank
                                                >> with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the
                                                >> fish over in
                                                >> the tank because the tank is heavy and has an
                                                >> oddball shape to it. I
                                                >> have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but
                                                >> could be in a few
                                                >> minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast
                                                >> and with out
                                                >> losing a fish.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
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                                                >> ADVERTISEMENT
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                                                >>
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                                                >>
                                                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                >>
                                                >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                >>
                                                >FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >>
                                                >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                                >> Terms of Service.
                                                >>
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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4103 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria "Seqüência (3) cult. de Nimph
                                                Agora no fórum AquaBahia a matéria Seqüência (3) cult. de Nimphoides aquatica!
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                 
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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4104 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                Bob,

                                                I will face the same dilemma in a couple of weeks, except that I have 2 90
                                                gallon tanks and 3 30 gallons.

                                                I can tell you the procedure I have thought of:

                                                Get a couple of 210L water butts (you will need only 1 & smaller). Fill it
                                                half with fresh water and remaining with tank water. Move the fish in the
                                                butts. Move the filters to the water butt as well (unless you have UGF)

                                                Take a large bucket with rope handles (so 2 people can easily carry it).
                                                Place a nicely washed largest possible bin bag in this bucket and fill the
                                                bag till the bucket level and keep aside.

                                                Now empty out the tank (including gravel). Move the gravel to another
                                                similar bucket and keep some water in there so the gravel does not dry up.

                                                Next, clean the tank & gravel and move it where ever you want to take it.
                                                Set it in the place you want it to be. Take out half of the gravel and make
                                                the first layer. Wash the remaining gravel with tap water finally adding the
                                                water conditioner to it before putting the second and final layer.

                                                Now you need to fill this tank to 1/4 or 1/2 level with dechlorinated water.
                                                Please take care that do not add chlorinated/ untreated water in this tank
                                                as you will kill the bacteria that we saved on the gravel. If you have
                                                decoration and live plants.. this is the time for them to go in.

                                                Now move the fish into the bucket with bin bag (this already has old tank
                                                water). Tie the knot of the bin bag keeping as much air in there as
                                                possible. Transport the bucket immediately to the new place and open the
                                                knot. First move half of this water into the tank and then start moving the
                                                fish. I will recommend this step only coz you have to go a mile away (I have
                                                to go 3 miles away so perfectly fine with me too.. any longer then this..
                                                rethink). Once the fish are in the tank, put all the bucket water in the
                                                tank.

                                                You could use anything large enough to be able to hold as much water as you
                                                can in this bucket. Finally you can move the filter to this tank in the same
                                                bucket as well unless it is a canister :)

                                                I could not think of any better way to do this and I have to repeat the
                                                steps 3-4 times.

                                                Nim




                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: Bob [mailto:Ferretbob@...]
                                                >Sent: 10 August 2004 04:38
                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too
                                                >
                                                >I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with us.
                                                >We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank is 30-gallons
                                                >and on a heavy wood base.
                                                >My question is what will be the best way to move my fish and tank
                                                >with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the fish over in
                                                >the tank because the tank is heavy and has an oddball shape to it. I
                                                >have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but could be in a few
                                                >minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast and with out
                                                >losing a fish.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4105 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                I wish we could get these cans so cheap in the UK :( Only options are Water
                                                butts but they are almost as expensive is similar capacity glass tanks.

                                                Nim


                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: wendie [mailto:wendieo@...]
                                                >Sent: 10 August 2004 06:11
                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too
                                                >
                                                >That's just the way I moved mine several times without
                                                >having any problems. It was an hour's ride for us one
                                                >way so it worked out well. I used a large garbage can
                                                >made of plastic.
                                                >
                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                >Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:43 PM
                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >no, if you try to move the tank with water in it, it
                                                >will shatter and cut you, or in the case of acryllic
                                                >crack open. best way to do it is to go to a hardware
                                                >store and buy new, clean garbage cans (35 gallon) for
                                                >about 8 bucks. transfer water into that along with
                                                >large decorations. bag all of the fish, it is best to
                                                >get back from your lfa as they are easier to put air
                                                >into than a zip lock. move the tank as empty as
                                                >possible, but save all water (even the dark stuff,
                                                >that is bascteria rich). setup trghe tank, and refill
                                                >it with the original water. be sure to reacclimate
                                                >your fish to the tank as the temperature will be
                                                >different, and the chemistry can be a little off after
                                                >the move as well. run the tank lights out for a full
                                                >24 hours to reduce stress on the fish.
                                                >
                                                >--- Bob <Ferretbob@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> I am moving out of town and the fish are coming with
                                                >> us.
                                                >> We are not going far about a mile away. But the tank
                                                >> is 30-gallons
                                                >> and on a heavy wood base.
                                                >> My question is what will be the best way to move my
                                                >> fish and tank
                                                >> with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move the
                                                >> fish over in
                                                >> the tank because the tank is heavy and has an
                                                >> oddball shape to it. I
                                                >> have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but
                                                >> could be in a few
                                                >> minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast
                                                >> and with out
                                                >> losing a fish.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4106 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 337
                                                You may have to top off your pond quite a bit in the summer if you are not getting much rain. If your pond is shaded as you say, that means you have trees nearby, and the roots could be invading the liner. You might also be getting water seeping out from your waterfall. And anytime you spray water up into the air, like with a fountain, it increases evaporation rates... plus if it extends anywhere near the edges of the pond, any small gust of wind will carry it to the ground nearby.
                                                That has been our experience with our pond... pretty as they are, we have stopped running our fountain, and our attempts at waterfall construction have always leaked a lot of water backwards. We also gave up on the pond liner and redid our pond with a hard plastic pre-formed type... we never did find visible holes in the liner, but it leaked all the same.

                                                Audrey

                                                Message: 12
                                                Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:48:14 -0400
                                                From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                Subject: another pond question...

                                                our pond has about 40 square feet of surface area, a water fall and one
                                                of those dome fountains running as well as a hose drip off the side. i
                                                live in new york and the pond is in semi shade all day. can anyone here
                                                tell me if about 4" or so a day of evaporation is normal under these
                                                circumstances? i tried to no avail to find a leak today and i'm
                                                seriously beginning to think that i just have a lot of evaporation
                                                going on.
                                                anyone?
                                                amalthea
                                                Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                                Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                                http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                                ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic

                                                [This message contained attachments]
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4107 From: fishtankbabe Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Kuli Loaches?
                                                I love Kuhli Loaches!!! These are one of my all time favorite fish to
                                                keep. Super peaceful, cute personalities, and hardy as all get out.
                                                Back before I knew better, I even kept one with my goldfish in an
                                                unheated tank. (Ducks as tomatoes are thrown at her). He got HUGE,
                                                lived for almost 7 years (until I had a total tank meltdown), and
                                                would sometimes sleep with his body draped over one of my big fancy
                                                goldfish.

                                                Right now I have two of them in my 12 gallon, along with some silver
                                                hatchets and green fire tetras. Like others have said, they will get
                                                along with almost fish. Just make sure they have somewhere to hide.


                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "robdar4609"
                                                <robdar4609@y...> wrote:
                                                > Are they compatible with most other fish? What not to mix with
                                                them,
                                                > etc... likes, dislikes...Is there a site about them? how big do
                                                > they get? The lfs I got it from told me a few inches, but I wasn't
                                                > confident he knew for sure..just double checking for some
                                                background
                                                > on these guys..I really like them..I have them in my 10-gallon
                                                right
                                                > now, nothing else is in there but I wanted to add something else at
                                                > some point...thanks
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                > > what do you want to know about them? i've kept them for years....
                                                > > amalthea
                                                > > On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:06 PM, robdar4609 wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > Anyone know about Kuli Loaches?  I can't find any info online..I
                                                > > > just got 3 small ones...
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > Arachne's Will vintage clothing...
                                                > > Available exclusively through Amalthea's Attic
                                                > > http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                                > > ViewUserPage&userid=amaltheasattic
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4108 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                i don't believe that there are any metal framed tanks
                                                in the US, have never heard of tehm anyway, but it
                                                woudl be a good idea.
                                                --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                > It can actually work for small tank. Especially
                                                > Juwel which have a metal
                                                > frame at the bottom. Juwel does not recommend
                                                > putting any padding under the
                                                > tank as the metal frame is supposed to hold the
                                                > entire weight.
                                                >
                                                > Any tank bigger then that and with even a slightly
                                                > weak bottom will easily
                                                > give away while doing this. So one has to be very
                                                > careful.
                                                >
                                                > Nim
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >-----Original Message-----
                                                > >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                > >Sent: 10 August 2004 08:43
                                                > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish
                                                > Are moveing too
                                                > >
                                                > >that is awesome that it worked out ok for you in
                                                > that
                                                > >manner. it usually doesn't.
                                                > >--- AQUARIUMFISH <aquariumfish@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >> well from my own experience from moving 3 times
                                                > and
                                                > >> this last time was over
                                                > >> 300 miles... i have a 20 gallon long tank and
                                                > when i
                                                > >> moved i would take out
                                                > >> all the decorations/plants so they dont get
                                                > banged
                                                > >> up on the objects and
                                                > >> leave about 5 inches of water in the tank
                                                > including
                                                > >> the gravel with the fish
                                                > >> still in the tank and mine never had any trouble
                                                > ...
                                                > >> course when moving its
                                                > >> easier to clean and reset back up after the
                                                > >> moving... i also made sure tho
                                                > >> that i put in the aquarium salt to reduce the
                                                > stress
                                                > >> of the moving but my
                                                > >> fish always done fine.. but then i moved 30
                                                > miles
                                                > >> away with my fish in
                                                > >> tank so yours will probably be fine....as long as
                                                > >> you have air conditioning.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> my opinion.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> HUGS
                                                > >> Gennifer
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                > >>
                                                > >> From:
                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >> Date: 08/09/04 22:32:09
                                                > >> To:
                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish
                                                > Are
                                                > >> moveing too
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I am moving out of town and the fish are coming
                                                > with
                                                > >> us.
                                                > >> We are not going far about a mile away. But the
                                                > tank
                                                > >> is 30-gallons
                                                > >> and on a heavy wood base.
                                                > >> My question is what will be the best way to move
                                                > my
                                                > >> fish and tank
                                                > >> with out losing anyone? It is impossible to move
                                                > the
                                                > >> fish over in
                                                > >> the tank because the tank is heavy and has an
                                                > >> oddball shape to it. I
                                                > >> have a 10-gallon tank here that is not set up but
                                                > >> could be in a few
                                                > >> minutes. Looking for ideas I want to do this fast
                                                > >> and with out
                                                > >> losing a fish.
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                > >> ADVERTISEMENT
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >>
                                                > >> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                > >>
                                                >
                                                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                > >>
                                                > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > >>
                                                >
                                                >FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                                > Yahoo!
                                                > >> Terms of Service.
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4109 From: falln_seraph Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                Hello, all,

                                                I have a tank of Malawi African cichlids. I have taken great care to
                                                maintain their pH, water changes, ammonia levels, the works, as well
                                                as proper terrain. Yet, several are dying off.

                                                I have recently discovered that they are actually killing each other,
                                                as there are no other signs of disease, parasites, or any other
                                                problem. Especially since some are thriving and others aren't, and
                                                the smaller fish were weeded out first.

                                                The tank is 29 gallons, and it only had 6 fish, now it only has 2.

                                                I don't want to keep adding fish to the mix, but I really like the
                                                cichlids.

                                                What can I do?

                                                Frank
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4110 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Cobrinha Kuhli! por Julio (jccsf
                                                Agora no fórum AquaBahia a matéria "Cobrinha kuhli" feita por  Julio (jccsfilho), Vale a visita.
                                                 
                                                Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                 
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                                                GATTI
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4111 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                What species are the two that are left and what species did you have.
                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@...]
                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:20 PM
                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Thunderdome (cichlid tank)

                                                Hello, all,

                                                I have a tank of Malawi African cichlids. I have taken great care to
                                                maintain their pH, water changes, ammonia levels, the works, as well
                                                as proper terrain. Yet, several are dying off.

                                                I have recently discovered that they are actually killing each other,
                                                as there are no other signs of disease, parasites, or any other
                                                problem. Especially since some are thriving and others aren't, and
                                                the smaller fish were weeded out first.

                                                The tank is 29 gallons, and it only had 6 fish, now it only has 2.

                                                I don't want to keep adding fish to the mix, but I really like the
                                                cichlids.

                                                What can I do?

                                                Frank




                                                        



                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4113 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                29g is a gamble for Malawis. I am myself in the process of setting up a 29g
                                                Mbuna setup and as recommended by some mbuna keepers, should keep 20+ fish
                                                in there or a pair/trio. With 6 such aggressive cichlids, if one of them
                                                pairs off and spawns, they will eventually kill the remaining unless there
                                                is too much confusion with them as to who to kill.

                                                Nim


                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@...]
                                                >Sent: 10 August 2004 19:20
                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                >
                                                >Hello, all,
                                                >
                                                >I have a tank of Malawi African cichlids. I have taken great care to
                                                >maintain their pH, water changes, ammonia levels, the works, as well
                                                >as proper terrain. Yet, several are dying off.
                                                >
                                                >I have recently discovered that they are actually killing each other,
                                                >as there are no other signs of disease, parasites, or any other
                                                >problem. Especially since some are thriving and others aren't, and
                                                >the smaller fish were weeded out first.
                                                >
                                                >The tank is 29 gallons, and it only had 6 fish, now it only has 2.
                                                >
                                                >I don't want to keep adding fish to the mix, but I really like the
                                                >cichlids.
                                                >
                                                >What can I do?
                                                >
                                                >Frank
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4114 From: falln_seraph Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                I'm embarrassed to say I don't know the latin names, but one is an
                                                Ice Blue and the other is an albino tiger.

                                                That's all that's left, currently...

                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan
                                                Hartsoe" <jhartsoe@e...> wrote:
                                                > What species are the two that are left and what species did you
                                                have.
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@y...]
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:20 PM
                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Thunderdome (cichlid
                                                tank)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hello, all,
                                                >
                                                > I have a tank of Malawi African cichlids. I have taken great care
                                                to
                                                > maintain their pH, water changes, ammonia levels, the works, as
                                                well
                                                > as proper terrain. Yet, several are dying off.
                                                >
                                                > I have recently discovered that they are actually killing each
                                                other,
                                                > as there are no other signs of disease, parasites, or any other
                                                > problem. Especially since some are thriving and others aren't, and
                                                > the smaller fish were weeded out first.
                                                >
                                                > The tank is 29 gallons, and it only had 6 fish, now it only has 2.
                                                >
                                                > I don't want to keep adding fish to the mix, but I really like the
                                                > cichlids.
                                                >
                                                > What can I do?
                                                >
                                                > Frank
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                > ADVERTISEMENT
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                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                >
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                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
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                                                Service.
                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4115 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                Ice blue seems to be a kind of a hapolochromis (Malawi) and Albino tiger is
                                                defiantly an Oscar (South american). They are not compatible and the both
                                                will easily outgrow a 29g tank.

                                                Nim


                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                >From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@...]
                                                >Sent: 10 August 2004 20:57
                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >I'm embarrassed to say I don't know the latin names, but one is an
                                                >Ice Blue and the other is an albino tiger.
                                                >
                                                >That's all that's left, currently...
                                                >
                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan
                                                >Hartsoe" <jhartsoe@e...> wrote:
                                                >> What species are the two that are left and what species did you
                                                >have.
                                                >> -----Original Message-----
                                                >> From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@y...]
                                                >> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:20 PM
                                                >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Thunderdome (cichlid
                                                >tank)
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Hello, all,
                                                >>
                                                >> I have a tank of Malawi African cichlids. I have taken great care
                                                >to
                                                >> maintain their pH, water changes, ammonia levels, the works, as
                                                >well
                                                >> as proper terrain. Yet, several are dying off.
                                                >>
                                                >> I have recently discovered that they are actually killing each
                                                >other,
                                                >> as there are no other signs of disease, parasites, or any other
                                                >> problem. Especially since some are thriving and others aren't, and
                                                >> the smaller fish were weeded out first.
                                                >>
                                                >> The tank is 29 gallons, and it only had 6 fish, now it only has 2.
                                                >>
                                                >> I don't want to keep adding fish to the mix, but I really like the
                                                >> cichlids.
                                                >>
                                                >> What can I do?
                                                >>
                                                >> Frank
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
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                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4116 From: Patrick Date: 8/10/2004
                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                Attachments :
                                                      I think they were popular many years ago, before I was born (1982).  They are antiques now, and very rare. 
                                                   
                                                  Patrick N.
                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                  i don't believe that there are any metal framed tanks
                                                  in the US, have never heard of tehm anyway, but it
                                                  woudl be a good idea.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4117 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                  Paul, By metal framed tanks (in the USA), I presume you mean tanks similar to the Juwel tanks that Nim is talking about, with just a bottom frame? If so, yeah, I don't know of any; its too bad that some tank manufacturer in the States doesn't pick up on that idea. I think it would offer a little extra strength. I still like the old stainless steel frame tanks that used to be made. For one thing, if used as a bare breeding tank, the slate bottom would give the fish a much noticeable sense of security especially with Cichlids -- very obvious with Angels as they can be skittish now in a bare bottom all-glass tank, even though some guys paint the bottom black. Ray
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4118 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                  i have one in my house, i usually use it for snakes and hampsters :)
                                                  amalthea
                                                  On Aug 10, 2004, at 6:16 PM, Patrick wrote:

                                                  >     I think they were popular many years ago, before I was born
                                                  > (1982).  They are antiques now, and very rare. 
                                                  >  
                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                  >
                                                  > About my tanks:  
                                                  > 29 gallon tank.
                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                  > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                  > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                  > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                  > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                  > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                  > 10 gallon tank.
                                                  > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                  > filter.
                                                  >
                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                  > i don't believe that there are any metal framed tanks
                                                  > in the US, have never heard of tehm anyway, but it
                                                  > woudl be a good idea.
                                                  >
                                                  > <image.tiff>
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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4119 From: Aranel Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Newbie...
                                                  Hi everyone!

                                                  I'm new to the group so this is my first question. My female balloon mollie (or is it molly? I've seen it both ways) had babies last night. She was in a ten gallon tank with six cory cats, one snail and a male betta. I've moved her and the betta into my 29 gallon community tank. Will the corys bother  or eat the babies? I haven't seen any problems so far, but I'd like to make sure.

                                                  -Aranel
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4120 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Leopard Danios - Getting Darker?
                                                  I have tww hardy long finned leopard danios...I think one is male
                                                  and the other is female (round stomach, shorter fins)...but tehy
                                                  both seemed to have gotten darker the last few days? Has anyone
                                                  experienced this? I hope they are ok...they are in a 29 gallong
                                                  that is in its 3rd week of cycle...they are still very active.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4121 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: are these fish compatible?
                                                  I have my 2 convicts in my tank with my jellybean parrot fish. They seem to have taken over the tank. I used to continuously have baby jellybean parrot fish. I haven't had any since I put the convicts in with them.
                                                  Dorothy

                                                  Jonathan Hartsoe <jhartsoe@...> wrote:
                                                  Well in my experience you will shortly have a convict and nothing else, as these fish are extremely aggressive even for cichlids and territorial. Convicts are better off with their own kind or other aggressive cichlids the same size or larger if not a convict. My convicts live in my turtle tank as its the only tank they can't kill the inhabitants but the turtles are afraid of them. But as with any other fish u could also wind up with a perfectly nice fish. One last consideration the convict will grow much faster than the barbs and quickly be several times larger than the barbs
                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: jd7152 [mailto:garagedude55@...]
                                                  Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:07 PM
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: are these fish compatible?

                                                  It is possible for these fish to get along with Tiger Barbs. (in my
                                                  opinion anyway)...

                                                  The Tiger Barb should be kept in groups of 8 and might be compatible
                                                  with Bala Shark, Bosemani Rainbow, Cherry Barb, Clown Loach, Dwarf
                                                  Neon Rainbow, GloFish, Kuhli Loach, Kissing Gourami, Molly, Pearl
                                                  Gourami, Platy, Pleco, Rainbow Shark, Red Tailed Shark, Rosy Barb,
                                                  Sailfin Molly, Swordtail, Tin Foil Barb, Three Spot Gourami,
                                                  Upsidedown Catfish, Zebra Danio,

                                                  > I'm wondering if ONE convict cichlid will get along with 5 or 6
                                                  tiger
                                                  > barbs? I was worried that the convict may be a problem, but after
                                                  > watching a tank full of tigers at a lfs, I think the tiger barbs may
                                                  > be nastier than the convicts. but at least the convict will be much
                                                  > larger than the barbs, so will it be able to hold it's own, or would
                                                  > I be asking for trouble by mixing the two? also, what are some other
                                                  > good small fish to put with the barbs? thanks.




                                                          





                                                          




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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4122 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Leopard Danios - Getting Darker?
                                                  3rd week of cycle means all kinds of spikes, they are
                                                  probably feeling a little shock with the ammonnia
                                                  spike. if they are getting shocked they may or may
                                                  not live through it.

                                                  --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                  > I have tww hardy long finned leopard danios...I
                                                  > think one is male
                                                  > and the other is female (round stomach, shorter
                                                  > fins)...but tehy
                                                  > both seemed to have gotten darker the last few days?
                                                  > Has anyone
                                                  > experienced this? I hope they are ok...they are in
                                                  > a 29 gallong
                                                  > that is in its 3rd week of cycle...they are still
                                                  > very active.
                                                  >
                                                  >




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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4124 From: paul helms Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie...
                                                  the cories won't bother them unless they are laying on
                                                  the bottom not moving.

                                                  --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:


                                                  ---------------------------------
                                                  Hi everyone!

                                                  I'm new to the group so this is my first question. My
                                                  female balloonmollie (or is it molly? I've seen it
                                                  both ways) had babies last night.She was in a ten
                                                  gallon tank with six cory cats, one snail and a
                                                  malebetta. I've moved her and the betta into my 29
                                                  gallon community tank.Will the corys bother or eat
                                                  the babies? I haven't seen any problemsso far, but I'd
                                                  like to make sure.

                                                  -Aranel






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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4125 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                  nim how come you need to keep the gravel dry is there a reason i am not thinking of... and also why areppl putting the fish in bags rather than jsut in the water in the tank... what is the point of putting a large water source in a tub if they are only in bags.. shannon
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4126 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/10/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                  Shannon,

                                                   

                                                  I have too many fish and too big to go comfortably in fish bags. One of my small tanks has 60+ fish and the large one I am scared to count. If Id go by the fish bag method, I will have to make atleast 20-30 bags overall and then tying them and opening them… I prefer the bucket method.

                                                   

                                                  The gravel should be kept wet. If it gets dry, all the bacteria it will be holding will die and the tank will have to be recycled again. Or was it something else you were asking?

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   


                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 07:22
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                   

                                                  nim how come you need to keep the gravel dry is there a reason i am not thinking of... and also why areppl putting the fish in bags rather than jsut in the water in the tank... what is the point of putting a large water source in a tub if they are only in bags.. shannon

                                                          




                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4127 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                  no that was perfect but jsut to add so if someone has like 30 fish the bag method would be good. .i just have a hard time seeing all the original water in a bucket with fish in bags.. i mean i thought the fish could go right in the bucket too.. why were ppl putting them in bags.. shannon

                                                  n,

                                                   

                                                  I have too many fish and too big to go comfortably in fish bags. One of my small tanks has 60+ fish and the large one I am scared to count. If Id go by the fish bag method, I will have to make atleast 20-30 bags overall and then tying them and opening them… I prefer the bucket method.

                                                   

                                                  The gravel should be kept wet. If it gets dry, all the bacteria it will be holding will die and the tank will have to be recycled again. Or was it something else you were asking?

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4128 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                  Well even for 30 fish, the bucket method (1 large bag for all) will also be good. 2 reasons for this: Large volume of water will keep the chemistry stable, and you are also transporting more original water from the tank which is in a way very good.

                                                   

                                                  Having a bin bag in a 35 gallon container as previously stated by some one would be almost perfect as this 1 container will carry all the fish and all the water one would need. The bin bag is tied to prevent the water from splashing. I don’t know the design of this container so maybe it is not feasible.

                                                   

                                                  I have to transport over 150 fish, some of them as big as 8” pangasius cats and a group of 4-5” rainbows.Though these fish can easily go with the likes of neon tetras, I would still not risk them. Some things like large panchax etc. cannot even go with zebra danios.

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 08:57
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                   

                                                  no that was perfect but jsut to add so if someone has like 30 fish the bag method would be good. .i just have a hard time seeing all the original water in a bucket with fish in bags.. i mean i thought the fish could go right in the bucket too.. why were ppl putting them in bags.. shannon

                                                  n,

                                                   

                                                  I have too many fish and too big to go comfortably in fish bags. One of my small tanks has 60+ fish and the large one I am scared to count. If Id go by the fish bag method, I will have to make atleast 20-30 bags overall and then tying them and opening them… I prefer the bucket method.

                                                   

                                                  The gravel should be kept wet. If it gets dry, all the bacteria it will be holding will die and the tank will have to be recycled again. Or was it something else you were asking?

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   



                                                          




                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4130 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                  ok so ppl put all the fish in one tank in one bag im thinking that woudl seroiusly stress them out i mean they woul dhave no room.. i thought you put them in the water or put them in bag like one species to a bag...     wow i think i am leaving this tank where it is when i move lol.. what if you have to move like state i live in oregon and have been thinking of moving to kentucky that is 2000 miles away... im scared.. shannon

                                                  even for 30 fish, the bucket method (1 large bag for all) will also be good. 2 reasons for this: Large volume of water will keep the chemistry stable, and you are also transporting more original water from the tank which is in a way very good.

                                                   

                                                  Having a bin bag in a 35 gallon container as previously stated by some one would be almost perfect as this 1 container will carry all the fish and all the water one would need. The bin bag is tied to prevent the water from splashing. I don’t know the design of this container so maybe it is not feasible.

                                                   

                                                  I have to transport over 150 fish, some of them as big as 8” pangasius cats and a group of 4-5” rainbows.Though these fish can easily go with the likes of neon tetras, I would still not risk them. Some things like large panchax etc. cannot even go with zebra danios.

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 08:57
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                   

                                                  no that was perfect but jsut to add so if someone has like 30 fish the bag method would be good. .i just have a hard time seeing all the original water in a bucket with fish in bags.. i mean i thought the fish could go right in the bucket too.. why were ppl putting them in bags.. shannon

                                                  n,

                                                   

                                                  I have too many fish and too big to go comfortably in fish bags. One of my small tanks has 60+ fish and the large one I am scared to count. If Id go by the fish bag method, I will have to make atleast 20-30 bags overall and then tying them and opening them… I prefer the bucket method.

                                                   

                                                  The gravel should be kept wet. If it gets dry, all the bacteria it will be holding will die and the tank will have to be recycled again. Or was it something else you were asking?

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4131 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                  Obviously every situation is different. The previous thread was for moving them to short distances. Also, putting the fish from a 30 gallon tank into a 35 gallon container/bucket/tub should not stress them much.. obviously it will be much less of a stress then putting them in1-2 liter bag. Moving 2000 miles is something I could never dream of in my worse nightmare. If I were to do this, I would prefer to sell of the tank and fish and other stuff that would cause problems and buy them again in the final destination. Glass tank is cheap.. I am sure a small-medium tank will be cheaper to buy new (just the glass tank) then to ship an existing one.

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 09:41
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                   

                                                  ok so ppl put all the fish in one tank in one bag im thinking that woudl seroiusly stress them out i mean they woul dhave no room.. i thought you put them in the water or put them in bag like one species to a bag...     wow i think i am leaving this tank where it is when i move lol.. what if you have to move like state i live in oregon and have been thinking of moving to kentucky that is 2000 miles away... im scared.. shannon

                                                  even for 30 fish, the bucket method (1 large bag for all) will also be good. 2 reasons for this: Large volume of water will keep the chemistry stable, and you are also transporting more original water from the tank which is in a way very good.

                                                   

                                                  Having a bin bag in a 35 gallon container as previously stated by some one would be almost perfect as this 1 container will carry all the fish and all the water one would need. The bin bag is tied to prevent the water from splashing. I don’t know the design of this container so maybe it is not feasible.

                                                   

                                                  I have to transport over 150 fish, some of them as big as 8” pangasius cats and a group of 4-5” rainbows.Though these fish can easily go with the likes of neon tetras, I would still not risk them. Some things like large panchax etc. cannot even go with zebra danios.

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 08:57
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim

                                                   

                                                  no that was perfect but jsut to add so if someone has like 30 fish the bag method would be good. .i just have a hard time seeing all the original water in a bucket with fish in bags.. i mean i thought the fish could go right in the bucket too.. why were ppl putting them in bags.. shannon

                                                  n,

                                                   

                                                  I have too many fish and too big to go comfortably in fish bags. One of my small tanks has 60+ fish and the large one I am scared to count. If Id go by the fish bag method, I will have to make atleast 20-30 bags overall and then tying them and opening them… I prefer the bucket method.

                                                   

                                                  The gravel should be kept wet. If it gets dry, all the bacteria it will be holding will die and the tank will have to be recycled again. Or was it something else you were asking?

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   



                                                          




                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4132 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                  don't move them more than a few hours away. it is
                                                  always best to transport in smaller amounts of water
                                                  as a large amount of water will slosh a lot more and
                                                  cause the fish to bang against the sides of whatever
                                                  they are in. this is why fish are sold with small
                                                  amounts of water in the bags. good oxygen is the key
                                                  as well. if by some means you were able to get ahold
                                                  of an oxygen tank, that is the absolute best. the
                                                  pure o2 allows them to be contained within the bags
                                                  for a lot longer. while some people may have gotten
                                                  lucky by others means, i can tell you form experience
                                                  in the industry that far more people lose their fish
                                                  than successfully transport them all in one large
                                                  container.
                                                  regards,
                                                  paul.
                                                  p.s. i am not saying that it is not possible to do
                                                  this successfully, and not trying to argue with
                                                  anyone, just stating what is more common.

                                                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                  > ok so ppl put all the fish in one tank in one bag im
                                                  > thinking that woudl
                                                  > seroiusly stress them out i mean they woul dhave no
                                                  > room.. i thought you put them
                                                  > in the water or put them in bag like one species to
                                                  > a bag... wow i think i
                                                  > am leaving this tank where it is when i move lol..
                                                  > what if you have to move
                                                  > like state i live in oregon and have been thinking
                                                  > of moving to kentucky that
                                                  > is 2000 miles away... im scared.. shannon
                                                  > even for 30 fish, the bucket method (1 large bag for
                                                  > all) will also be good.
                                                  > 2 reasons for this: Large volume of water will keep
                                                  > the chemistry stable, and
                                                  > you are also transporting more original water from
                                                  > the tank which is in a way
                                                  > very good.
                                                  >
                                                  > Having a bin bag in a 35 gallon container as
                                                  > previously stated by some one
                                                  > would be almost perfect as this 1 container will
                                                  > carry all the fish and all the
                                                  > water one would need. The bin bag is tied to prevent
                                                  > the water from splashing.
                                                  > I don���t know the design of this container so maybe
                                                  > it is not feasible.
                                                  >
                                                  > I have to transport over 150 fish, some of them as
                                                  > big as 8��� pangasius cats
                                                  > and a group of 4-5��� rainbows.Though these fish can
                                                  > easily go with the likes of
                                                  > neon tetras, I would still not risk them. Some
                                                  > things like large panchax etc.
                                                  > cannot even go with zebra danios.
                                                  >
                                                  > Nim
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                  > [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                  > Sent: 11 August 2004 08:57
                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Fish
                                                  > Are moveing too a few
                                                  > questions nim
                                                  >
                                                  > no that was perfect but jsut to add so if someone
                                                  > has like 30 fish the bag
                                                  > method would be good. .i just have a hard time
                                                  > seeing all the original water in
                                                  > a bucket with fish in bags.. i mean i thought the
                                                  > fish could go right in the
                                                  > bucket too.. why were ppl putting them in bags..
                                                  > shannon
                                                  > n,
                                                  >
                                                  > I have too many fish and too big to go comfortably
                                                  > in fish bags. One of my
                                                  > small tanks has 60+ fish and the large one I am
                                                  > scared to count. If Id go by the
                                                  > fish bag method, I will have to make atleast 20-30
                                                  > bags overall and then
                                                  > tying them and opening them��� I prefer the bucket
                                                  > method.
                                                  >
                                                  > The gravel should be kept wet. If it gets dry, all
                                                  > the bacteria it will be
                                                  > holding will die and the tank will have to be
                                                  > recycled again. Or was it
                                                  > something else you were asking?
                                                  >
                                                  > Nim
                                                  >
                                                  >




                                                  __________________________________
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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4133 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                  the large water source is to move all of your water.
                                                  the first 2 weeks are rough after moving the tank, on
                                                  the fish. by maintaing all of your water and keeping
                                                  your substrate wet, you preserve your biology, and
                                                  instead of the tank cycleing, it will settle and run
                                                  well again. if you do a massive water change you lose
                                                  too much of what you had and risk cycling the tank
                                                  already stocked, which we all know does not work well.

                                                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                  > nim how come you need to keep the gravel dry is
                                                  > there a reason i am not
                                                  > thinking of... and also why areppl putting the fish
                                                  > in bags rather than jsut in the
                                                  > water in the tank... what is the point of putting a
                                                  > large water source in a
                                                  > tub if they are only in bags.. shannon
                                                  >





                                                  __________________________________
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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4134 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_mat
                                                  'Sory about that Mr. "Nimish".
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  If you don´t know, AquaBahia its periodical "free" newspaper and don´t need "promote user to join there".
                                                   
                                                  We have a lot of Brazilian hobbysts (engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc..)  in group and we are showing a quality work to you and not a Spam as it spoke.
                                                   
                                                  If you have trouble to translate use (http://babel.altavista.com/tr)
                                                  If you have trouble to see, forgive me not was the intention.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Please before saying of the aquabahia test it - ITS FREE
                                                  The aquabahia does not compete with this list of email it adds tecnical values
                                                  Tanks and sory moderators!
                                                   
                                                  sds,
                                                  GATTI
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:20 AM
                                                  Subject: RE: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobrinha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)

                                                  Well why do I have to create an account on another forum to see the links
                                                  posted here? I checked all messages from the sender and except 1 link that
                                                  had some good pictures on the forum, others wanted me to create an account
                                                  to view the posts.

                                                  Maybe one should start advertising about other groups in the group to
                                                  promote users to join there... This list would become a spam ground then,
                                                  would it not?

                                                  There should be some policies on what someone is posting. I am already a
                                                  member of 15 other lists and I really don't want to join any more... already
                                                  having trouble maintaining these.

                                                  Nim


                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                  >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                  >Sent: 11 August 2004 06:46
                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject:
                                                  >RE:_[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobr
                                                  >inha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)
                                                  >
                                                  >well what? lol
                                                  >
                                                  >--- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> Well?
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>   _____
                                                  >>
                                                  >> From: Paulo Gatti [mailto:apmgjr@...]
                                                  >> Sent: 10 August 2004 19:55
                                                  >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Foi
                                                  >> adicionado no forum a matiria
                                                  >> Cobrinha Kuhli! por Julio (jccsfilho)
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Agora no fsrum AquaBahia a matiria "Cobrinha kuhli"
                                                  >> feita por
                                                  >> <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewforum.php?f=29>
                                                  >> Julio (jccsfilho), Vale a
                                                  >> visita.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Veja maiores detalhes no fsrum:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> http://forum.aquabahia.com.br
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Veja a materia em:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>  <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/index.php>
                                                  >> aquabahia.com.br - Mndice do
                                                  >> Fsrum ->
                                                  >> <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewforum.php?f=29>
                                                  >> Julio
                                                  >> (jccsfilho) - Aquarismo diverso ->
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewtopic.php?t=276&start=0&postdays=0&posto
                                                  >r
                                                  >> der=asc&highlight=> Cobrinha Kuhli
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Se vocj nco for um usuario registrado no fsrum
                                                  >> clique no link abaixo e
                                                  >> realize seu registro, i facil rapido e gratuito:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/profile.php?mode=register
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/profile.php?mode=register&sid=8cb090d29b2952
                                                  >1
                                                  >> 4258728f7ff79cdaf>
                                                  >> &sid=8cb090d29b295214258728f7ff79cdaf
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Abragos,
                                                  >>
                                                  >> GATTI
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> ADVERTISEMENT
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1292c71st/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=g
                                                  >r
                                                  >>
                                                  >oups/S=1705417564:HM/EXP=1092250487/A=2164330/R=0/SIG=11eamf8g4/*http:/www.
                                                  >n
                                                  >> etflix.com/Default?mqso=60183350> click here
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S
                                                  >=
                                                  >> :HM/A=2164330/rand=519445848>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>   _____
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >>
                                                  >> *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  >>
                                                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                  >>
                                                  >> *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  >>
                                                  >FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >>
                                                  ><mailto:FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-
                                                  >unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=U
                                                  >> nsubscribe>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> *      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                                  >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of
                                                  >> Service.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >__________________________________
                                                  >Do you Yahoo!?
                                                  >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
                                                  >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                          



                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4135 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_mat

                                                  Ah Paulo,

                                                   

                                                  Good to see some other post from you excepting the links to AquaBahia. I seriously thought that you were not a person but a bot sending link. Sorry for thinking like that. I am not a moderator or owner of this group so I can only comment about what I feel and that’s what I did.

                                                   

                                                  I have another group that runs in “Hindi”, perhaps I should post some links to that as well. Luckily, it does not require login to read the messages that are in Hindi J

                                                  This was my point I was trying to make.

                                                   

                                                  Cheers,

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: Paulo Gatti [mailto:apmgjr@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 12:31
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobrinha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)

                                                   

                                                  'Sory about that Mr. "Nimish".

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  If you don´t know, AquaBahia its periodical "free" newspaper and don´t need "promote user to join there".

                                                   

                                                  We have a lot of Brazilian hobbysts (engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc..)  in group and we are showing a quality work to you and not a Spam as it spoke.

                                                   

                                                  If you have trouble to translate use (http://babel.altavista.com/tr)

                                                  If you have trouble to see, forgive me not was the intention.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Please before saying of the aquabahia test it - ITS FREE

                                                  The aquabahia does not compete with this list of email it adds tecnical values

                                                  Tanks and sory moderators!

                                                   

                                                  sds,

                                                  GATTI

                                                  ----- Original Message -----

                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:20 AM

                                                  Subject: RE: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobrinha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)

                                                   

                                                  Well why do I have to create an account on another forum to see the links
                                                  posted here? I checked all messages from the sender and except 1 link that
                                                  had some good pictures on the forum, others wanted me to create an account
                                                  to view the posts.

                                                  Maybe one should start advertising about other groups in the group to
                                                  promote users to join there... This list would become a spam ground then,
                                                  would it not?

                                                  There should be some policies on what someone is posting. I am already a
                                                  member of 15 other lists and I really don't want to join any more... already
                                                  having trouble maintaining these.

                                                  Nim


                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                  >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                  >Sent: 11 August 2004 06:46
                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject:
                                                  >RE:_[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobr
                                                  >inha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)
                                                  >
                                                  >well what? lol
                                                  >
                                                  >--- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> Well?
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>   _____
                                                  >>
                                                  >> From: Paulo Gatti [mailto:apmgjr@...]
                                                  >> Sent: 10 August 2004 19:55
                                                  >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Foi
                                                  >> adicionado no forum a matiria
                                                  >> Cobrinha Kuhli! por Julio (jccsfilho)
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Agora no fsrum AquaBahia a matiria "Cobrinha kuhli"
                                                  >> feita por
                                                  >> <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewforum.php?f=29>
                                                  >> Julio (jccsfilho), Vale a
                                                  >> visita.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Veja maiores detalhes no fsrum:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> http://forum.aquabahia.com.br
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Veja a materia em:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>  <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/index.php>
                                                  >> aquabahia.com.br - Mndice do
                                                  >> Fsrum ->
                                                  >> <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewforum.php?f=29>
                                                  >> Julio
                                                  >> (jccsfilho) - Aquarismo diverso ->
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewtopic.php?t=276&start=0&postdays=0&posto
                                                  >r
                                                  >> der=asc&highlight=> Cobrinha Kuhli
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Se vocj nco for um usuario registrado no fsrum
                                                  >> clique no link abaixo e
                                                  >> realize seu registro, i facil rapido e gratuito:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/profile.php?mode=register
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/profile.php?mode=register&sid=8cb090d29b2952
                                                  >1
                                                  >> 4258728f7ff79cdaf>
                                                  >> &sid=8cb090d29b295214258728f7ff79cdaf
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Abragos,
                                                  >>
                                                  >> GATTI
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> ADVERTISEMENT
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1292c71st/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=g
                                                  >r
                                                  >>
                                                  >oups/S=1705417564:HM/EXP=1092250487/A=2164330/R=0/SIG=11eamf8g4/*http:/www.
                                                  >n
                                                  >> etflix.com/Default?mqso=60183350> click here
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S
                                                  >=
                                                  >> :HM/A=2164330/rand=519445848>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>   _____
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >>
                                                  >> *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  >>
                                                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                  >>
                                                  >> *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  >>
                                                  >FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >>
                                                  ><mailto:FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-
                                                  >unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=U
                                                  >> nsubscribe>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> *      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                                  >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of
                                                  >> Service.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >__________________________________
                                                  >Do you Yahoo!?
                                                  >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
                                                  >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                          





                                                          




                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4136 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_mat
                                                  Ops... (shame)
                                                   
                                                  My English is bad, this is the problem!
                                                   
                                                  sory again!
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  see you,
                                                  GATTI
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:40 AM
                                                  Subject: RE: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobrinha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)

                                                  Ah Paulo,

                                                   

                                                  Good to see some other post from you excepting the links to AquaBahia. I seriously thought that you were not a person but a bot sending link. Sorry for thinking like that. I am not a moderator or owner of this group so I can only comment about what I feel and that’s what I did.

                                                   

                                                  I have another group that runs in “Hindi”, perhaps I should post some links to that as well. Luckily, it does not require login to read the messages that are in Hindi J

                                                  This was my point I was trying to make.

                                                   

                                                  Cheers,

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: Paulo Gatti [mailto:apmgjr@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 12:31
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobrinha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)

                                                   

                                                  'Sory about that Mr. "Nimish".

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  If you don´t know, AquaBahia its periodical "free" newspaper and don´t need "promote user to join there".

                                                   

                                                  We have a lot of Brazilian hobbysts (engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc..)  in group and we are showing a quality work to you and not a Spam as it spoke.

                                                   

                                                  If you have trouble to translate use (http://babel.altavista.com/tr)

                                                  If you have trouble to see, forgive me not was the intention.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Please before saying of the aquabahia test it - ITS FREE

                                                  The aquabahia does not compete with this list of email it adds tecnical values

                                                  Tanks and sory moderators!

                                                   

                                                  sds,

                                                  GATTI

                                                  ----- Original Message -----

                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:20 AM

                                                  Subject: RE: _[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobrinha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)

                                                   

                                                  Well why do I have to create an account on another forum to see the links
                                                  posted here? I checked all messages from the sender and except 1 link that
                                                  had some good pictures on the forum, others wanted me to create an account
                                                  to view the posts.

                                                  Maybe one should start advertising about other groups in the group to
                                                  promote users to join there... This list would become a spam ground then,
                                                  would it not?

                                                  There should be some policies on what someone is posting. I am already a
                                                  member of 15 other lists and I really don't want to join any more... already
                                                  having trouble maintaining these.

                                                  Nim


                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                  >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                  >Sent: 11 August 2004 06:46
                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject:
                                                  >RE:_[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]_Foi_adicionado_no_forum_a_matiria_Cobr
                                                  >inha_Kuhli!_por_Julio_(jccsfilho)
                                                  >
                                                  >well what? lol
                                                  >
                                                  >--- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> Well?
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>   _____
                                                  >>
                                                  >> From: Paulo Gatti [mailto:apmgjr@...]
                                                  >> Sent: 10 August 2004 19:55
                                                  >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Foi
                                                  >> adicionado no forum a matiria
                                                  >> Cobrinha Kuhli! por Julio (jccsfilho)
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Agora no fsrum AquaBahia a matiria "Cobrinha kuhli"
                                                  >> feita por
                                                  >> <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewforum.php?f=29>
                                                  >> Julio (jccsfilho), Vale a
                                                  >> visita.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Veja maiores detalhes no fsrum:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> http://forum.aquabahia.com.br
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Veja a materia em:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>  <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/index.php>
                                                  >> aquabahia.com.br - Mndice do
                                                  >> Fsrum ->
                                                  >> <http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewforum.php?f=29>
                                                  >> Julio
                                                  >> (jccsfilho) - Aquarismo diverso ->
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/viewtopic.php?t=276&start=0&postdays=0&posto
                                                  >r
                                                  >> der=asc&highlight=> Cobrinha Kuhli
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Se vocj nco for um usuario registrado no fsrum
                                                  >> clique no link abaixo e
                                                  >> realize seu registro, i facil rapido e gratuito:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/profile.php?mode=register
                                                  >>
                                                  ><http://forum.aquabahia.com.br/profile.php?mode=register&sid=8cb090d29b2952
                                                  >1
                                                  >> 4258728f7ff79cdaf>
                                                  >> &sid=8cb090d29b295214258728f7ff79cdaf
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Abragos,
                                                  >>
                                                  >> GATTI
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
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                                                  >>
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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4137 From: Daniel Brown Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Tank Backgrounds
                                                  Message
                                                  What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?
                                                   
                                                  I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a tank?
                                                   
                                                  Cheers,
                                                   
                                                  Daniel
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4138 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
                                                  Hello!
                                                   
                                                  Reading this, I now remember your earlier post regarding aponogetons. I do not know what species are available over there and I generally regard bulbous aponogetons (the African side of the genus) as difficult plants not by experience but by word of mouth as they are very rarely available here. I've also read and heard that hybrids of these are being sold that are hardier and easier to grow than the "originals". Rhizomatous aponogetons (the Asian side of the genus) are said to be easier to take care of than the Africans but I have found them to need rich, fine substrate and an established tank. I have since transferred them in my soil-bottom pond as they were not growing well in the gravel-bottom aquarium where the plants that grow like weeds are staying. I wish I could get my hands on aponogetons bulbs so I can try them out myself though...
                                                   
                                                  Tell me if your aponogetons still have dormant periods (where they stop growing or lose all their leaves, just like annual lilies) as it has also been written somewhere that hybridized aponogetons do not have dormant periods anymore...
                                                   
                                                  Hope to read from you again!
                                                   
                                                  Rod

                                                  Witchywmn42@... wrote:
                                                  In a message dated 8/9/2004 7:51:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, la_rmarquezjr@... writes:

                                                  Unless you're investing in a high-tech tank and rich substrate, stay away from aponogetons


                                                  I've got "regular" multi-colored gravel as substrate, the lighting the same bulb type that came in the hood, and aponogeton plants. My plants are doing fine, in fact they are starting to get taller. The ones at the back near my bubble wall are about 6-8 inches tall with nice broad leaves, and the ones at the front of the tank are 4-6 inches tall, with broad leaves and some new leaves growing.

                                                  They are tough little plants, and don't require any maintenance from me. I dropped the bulbs in, when they started sprouting I buried them under the gravel a little, and other than that I don't mess with them at all.
                                                  Erin
                                                  CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4139 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie...
                                                  eVEN MOM WILL EAT THE BABIES. iF YOU WANT TO KEEP SOME EITHER GET A SMALL TANK TO HOUSE THEM TILL BIG ENOUGH NOT TO BE EATEN OR TRY A NET BREEDER WHICH HANGS IN THE TANK AND WILL KEEP THEM SEPERATE. 
                                                   
                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                   
                                                  Date: 08/10/04 22:12:26
                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Newbie...
                                                   
                                                  Hi everyone!

                                                  I'm new to the group so this is my first question. My female balloon mollie (or is it molly? I've seen it both ways) had babies last night. She was in a ten gallon tank with six cory cats, one snail and a male betta. I've moved her and the betta into my 29 gallon community tank. Will the corys bother  or eat the babies? I haven't seen any problems so far, but I'd like to make sure.

                                                  -Aranel


                                                          



                                                   
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4140 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Substrates

                                                  Wouldn't really want to be a spoiler but one of the reasons that aponogetons and water lilies do not immediately show signs of not doing well is because they feed off the stored food in their bulbs. I don't consider a plant doing really well until after 6 months. Even the false aquarium plants can last that long on stored food until they suddenly fall apart. I've helplessly watch my crinum calamistratum which has put out leaf after leaf suddenly disintegrate after it has exhausted its bulb after 4 months. I'd like to try just how durable bulbous aponogetons are (allegedly hardier hybrids of the original varieties) but they aren't available here..

                                                  Rod


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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4141 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
                                                  You may have to top off your pond quite a bit in the summer if you are not getting much rain. If your pond is shaded as you say, that means you have trees nearby, and the roots could be invading the liner. You might also be getting water seeping out from your waterfall. And anytime you spray water up into the air, like with a fountain, it increases evaporation rates... plus if it extends anywhere near the edges of the pond, any small gust of wind will carry it to the ground nearby.
                                                  =============================================================
                                                  I would say 4" of evaporation per day is unusual.  I have never had to add water to my pond more than every week or so, and then not much.  If tree roots are invading your liner - you have a leak.  If you have a waterfall, make sure there is a flat rock guiding the water back into the pond, and not backwards away from the pond.  A fountain can lose you a lot of water if you have a lot of wind.  But, in general, I would suspect a leak in the liner.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4142 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                  From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                  Subject: RE: Fish Are moveing too

                                                  i don't believe that there are any metal framed tanks
                                                  in the US, have never heard of tehm anyway, but it
                                                  woudl be a good idea.
                                                  ===========================================================
                                                  Paul, you're giving away your age.  At one time in the good old U. S. of A., all you could get were metal framed tanks.  The frame was stainless steel.  In fact, I just picked one up at an auction last weekend.  One end glass was broken, but with the frame they're simple to repair with a little silicone seal - which is not the case with an all glass tank.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4143 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
                                                  i did a test. i turned off the waterfall, (i had already done a daytime
                                                  test without the waterfall, and the level still fell) lowered the other
                                                  sprayer so it goes right into the water with no splash and then did a
                                                  refill at dusk. this time, about 12 hours later, there was absolutely
                                                  no change in the level. this seems to exclude a leak as the problem so
                                                  i'm going on the assumption that i just have a ton of evaporation going
                                                  on. our waterfall is over flat rocks in the sun all day (that area is
                                                  in the sun) and between that, the sprayer and the dry winds we had all
                                                  weekend, i think it's definitely evaporation.
                                                  amalthea
                                                  On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:10 AM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                  > You may have to top off your pond quite a bit in the summer if you are
                                                  > not getting much rain. If your pond is shaded as you say, that means
                                                  > you have trees nearby, and the roots could be invading the liner. You
                                                  > might also be getting water seeping out from your waterfall. And
                                                  > anytime you spray water up into the air, like with a fountain, it
                                                  > increases evaporation rates... plus if it extends anywhere near the
                                                  > edges of the pond, any small gust of wind will carry it to the ground
                                                  > nearby.
                                                  > =============================================================
                                                  > I would say 4" of evaporation per day is unusual.  I have never had
                                                  > to add water to my pond more than every week or so, and then not much.
                                                  >  If tree roots are invading your liner - you have a leak.  If you have
                                                  > a waterfall, make sure there is a flat rock guiding the water back
                                                  > into the pond, and not backwards away from the pond.  A fountain can
                                                  > lose you a lot of water if you have a lot of wind.  But, in general, I
                                                  > would suspect a leak in the liner.
                                                  >
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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4144 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
                                                   From: "Daniel Brown" <mailinglists@...>
                                                  Subject: Tank Backgrounds


                                                  What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of
                                                  getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                  images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very
                                                  tacky(IMHO).
                                                  ============================================================
                                                  Sorry about that last one - I clicked when I shudda thunk.

                                                  What I've used was either a mirror cut to the size of the back of the tank, or blue or green olastic shelf-lining stuff taped to the back outside.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4145 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
                                                  In a message dated 8/11/04 10:09:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                  What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of
                                                  getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                  images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very
                                                  tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've



                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4146 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
                                                  at most I get 2  to 3 inches evaporation in two weeks  ..
                                                  that's not too bad..
                                                  considering  the temps we been having the last  couple of weeks .. been in the 90's ..
                                                   
                                                  we hit a cool spot lately..  &  had a
                                                  good bit of rain too..  been almost 82 here the last day or  two..
                                                  so pond is fillled back up ..
                                                   
                                                  now ponds' all cloudy ..
                                                  but will clear in a day or two w/filtration  ..
                                                  Linda M.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4147 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION

                                                  I seemed to have missed the original post? Anyhow.

                                                   

                                                  My large tank with a surface area of 10sq feet easily lost 1-1.5” of water every day when it was tropical and in winters and obviously uncovered. But 4” of water loss on a 40sqft pond sounds like a lot to me. Can you do a few more tests to see what the water temperature and outside temperatures are? Logically, if water temperature remains warmer then the air temperature, there should be more evaporation. Your case seems to be the other way round??? If at night there was no evaporation then it defiantly has to do with the waterfall and fountain causing too much evaporation. Do you feel a lot humid when coming near the pond?

                                                   

                                                  Are there any trees whose roots could have made way into the pond? This is also a big possibility though.

                                                   

                                                  Nim

                                                   

                                                   


                                                  From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 15:27
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION

                                                   

                                                  i did a test. i turned off the waterfall, (i had already done a daytime test without the waterfall, and the level still fell) lowered the other sprayer so it goes right into the water with no splash and then did a refill at dusk. this time, about 12 hours later, there was absolutely no change in the level. this seems to exclude a leak as the problem so i'm going on the assumption that i just have a ton of evaporation going on. our waterfall is over flat rocks in the sun all day (that area is in the sun) and between that, the sprayer and the dry winds we had all weekend, i think it's definitely evaporation.
                                                  amalthea
                                                  On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:10 AM , DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                  You may have to top off your pond quite a bit in the summer if you are not getting much rain. If your pond is shaded as you say, that means you have trees nearby, and the roots could be invading the liner. You might also be getting water seeping out from your waterfall. And anytime you spray water up into the air, like with a fountain, it increases evaporation rates... plus if it extends anywhere near the edges of the pond, any small gust of wind will carry it to the ground nearby.
                                                  =============================================================
                                                  I would say 4" of evaporation per day is unusual.  I have never had to add water to my pond more than every week or so, and then not much.  If tree roots are invading your liner - you have a leak.  If you have a waterfall, make sure there is a flat rock guiding the water back into the pond, and not backwards away from the pond.  A fountain can lose you a lot of water if you have a lot of wind.  But, in general, I would suspect a leak in the liner.

                                                          





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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4148 From: Daniel Brown Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
                                                  Message
                                                  A mirror interesting, never heard of that being done before! How do the fish react to it?
                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: DB1RDMAN@... [mailto:DB1RDMAN@...]
                                                  Sent: 11 August 2004 15:34
                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS

                                                   From: "Daniel Brown" <mailinglists@...>
                                                  Subject: Tank Backgrounds


                                                  What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of
                                                  getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                  images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very
                                                  tacky(IMHO).
                                                  ============================================================
                                                  Sorry about that last one - I clicked when I shudda thunk.

                                                  What I've used was either a mirror cut to the size of the back of the tank, or blue or green olastic shelf-lining stuff taped to the back outside.


                                                          



                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4149 From: Aranel Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie...
                                                  I've already moved her back to the big community tank. The babies are in
                                                  a ten gallon with several cory cats. So far there have been no problems.

                                                  -Aranel

                                                  > eVEN MOM WILL EAT THE BABIES. iF YOU WANT TO KEEP SOME EITHER GET A
                                                  > SMALL TANK TO HOUSE THEM TILL BIG ENOUGH NOT TO BE EATEN OR TRY A NET
                                                  > BREEDER WHICH HANGS IN THE TANK AND WILL KEEP THEM SEPERATE.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4150 From: Aranel Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie...
                                                  Ok, thanks. The babies haven't been on the bottom of the tank much.
                                                  They've been hanging around the surface and in the silk plants.

                                                  -Aranel

                                                  paul helms wrote:

                                                  > the cories won't bother them unless they are laying on
                                                  > the bottom not moving.
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4151 From: falln_seraph Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Thunderdome (cichlid tank)
                                                  I think you're right about the Ice Blue, but I can tell you the
                                                  Albino Tiger is definitely not an Oscar. I've seen the albino
                                                  Oscars, and it's body shape is radically different. My albino has
                                                  the torpedo body shape typical of the rest of the Malawis. I'm not
                                                  sure what species of African it is, though.


                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                  Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Ice blue seems to be a kind of a hapolochromis (Malawi) and Albino
                                                  tiger is
                                                  > defiantly an Oscar (South american). They are not compatible and
                                                  the both
                                                  > will easily outgrow a 29g tank.
                                                  >
                                                  > Nim
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > >-----Original Message-----
                                                  > >From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@y...]
                                                  > >Sent: 10 August 2004 20:57
                                                  > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Thunderdome (cichlid
                                                  tank)
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >I'm embarrassed to say I don't know the latin names, but one is an
                                                  > >Ice Blue and the other is an albino tiger.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >That's all that's left, currently...
                                                  > >
                                                  > >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan
                                                  > >Hartsoe" <jhartsoe@e...> wrote:
                                                  > >> What species are the two that are left and what species did you
                                                  > >have.
                                                  > >> -----Original Message-----
                                                  > >> From: falln_seraph [mailto:falln_seraph@y...]
                                                  > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:20 PM
                                                  > >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Thunderdome (cichlid
                                                  > >tank)
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Hello, all,
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> I have a tank of Malawi African cichlids. I have taken great
                                                  care
                                                  > >to
                                                  > >> maintain their pH, water changes, ammonia levels, the works, as
                                                  > >well
                                                  > >> as proper terrain. Yet, several are dying off.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> I have recently discovered that they are actually killing each
                                                  > >other,
                                                  > >> as there are no other signs of disease, parasites, or any other
                                                  > >> problem. Especially since some are thriving and others aren't,
                                                  and
                                                  > >> the smaller fish were weeded out first.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> The tank is 29 gallons, and it only had 6 fish, now it only
                                                  has 2.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> I don't want to keep adding fish to the mix, but I really like
                                                  the
                                                  > >> cichlids.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> What can I do?
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Frank
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
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                                                  > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > >>
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                                                  of
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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4152 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
                                                  Mirrors make great backs to aquariums. I've used one, since we had
                                                  mirror tiles and I was too cheap to buy the plastic sheet backing.
                                                  The fish don't seem to react to it any more than they do to the tank
                                                  being lit when the room is dark.

                                                  > A mirror interesting, never heard of that being done before! How do
                                                  the
                                                  > fish react to it?
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4153 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
                                                  it is all up to you, what you like, does nothing for
                                                  the fish- the background that is.
                                                  --- DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                  > In a message dated 8/11/04 10:09:27 AM Eastern
                                                  > Daylight Time,
                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > writes:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds?
                                                  > I'm in the process of
                                                  > > getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the
                                                  > rolls of background
                                                  > > images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they
                                                  > lookng very
                                                  > > tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on
                                                  > Aquascaping and I've
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >





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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4154 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                  i have no problem gicing away my age....i will be 25
                                                  in 2 weeks, but i have been in the hobby since i was
                                                  10 and was runing a 25 gallon tank then. it is still
                                                  running healthy at my nieces house to this day.


                                                  --- DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                  > From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                  > Subject: RE: Fish Are moveing too
                                                  >
                                                  > i don't believe that there are any metal framed
                                                  > tanks
                                                  > in the US, have never heard of tehm anyway, but it
                                                  > woudl be a good idea.
                                                  >
                                                  ===========================================================
                                                  > Paul, you're giving away your age. At one time in
                                                  > the good old U. S. of A.,
                                                  > all you could get were metal framed tanks. The
                                                  > frame was stainless steel. In
                                                  > fact, I just picked one up at an auction last
                                                  > weekend. One end glass was
                                                  > broken, but with the frame they're simple to repair
                                                  > with a little silicone seal -
                                                  > which is not the case with an all glass tank.
                                                  >




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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4155 From: paul helms Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                  up to you
                                                  --- Daniel Brown <mailinglists@...> wrote:

                                                  > What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm
                                                  > in the process of
                                                  > getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls
                                                  > of background
                                                  > images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they
                                                  > lookng very
                                                  > tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on
                                                  > Aquascaping and I've
                                                  > noticed allot of people have recommend painting the
                                                  > back exterior wall
                                                  > of the tank. I've been thinking of spraying (to get
                                                  > a nice even finish
                                                  > free of brush strokes) mine either a sea blue or
                                                  > black, what are your
                                                  > thoughts on good background colours for a smallish
                                                  > tank of aprox 60cm in
                                                  > length?
                                                  >
                                                  > I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy
                                                  > too, how do they look
                                                  > in a tank?
                                                  >
                                                  > Cheers,
                                                  >
                                                  > Daniel
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >




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                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4156 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                  Message
                                                  It's really a personal decision.
                                                   
                                                  I like plain blue or black backgrounds. I've also used foil, both the shiny side and the matte side. I've heard of people using paint, fabric, wrapping paper...pretty much anything.
                                                   
                                                  In regards to mirrored backgrounds I think they do have somewhat of an effect on the fish. Mine can see reflections with the foil and seem to think there are other fish in the tank :)
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:16 AM
                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank Backgrounds

                                                  What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?
                                                   
                                                  I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a tank?
                                                   
                                                  Cheers,
                                                   
                                                  Daniel
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4157 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Good Starter Plants
                                                  In a message dated 8/11/2004 8:59:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, la_rmarquezjr@... writes:

                                                  Tell me if your aponogetons still have dormant periods (where they stop growing or lose all their leaves, just like annual lilies) as it has also been written somewhere that hybridized aponogetons do not have dormant periods anymore...


                                                  Well, I'm not sure if they have a dormant period yet. LOL

                                                  I've had my tank going since early January (I checked my LiveJournal past posts to be sure about the dates), but I didn't start live plants until a few months ago.

                                                  Mine were labeled as "Hybrid Aponogetons" ... yay for vague names. I'll keep an eye on them and let you know what (if anything) I find out. I got mine at WalMart in the pet supplies aisle. My local WalMart does NOT sell fish ... just some of the fish keeping supplies such as food, aquaria, filters, etc.
                                                  Erin
                                                  CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                  ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                  my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4158 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Overdrive de lâmpadas fluoresce
                                                  Agora no fórum AquaBahia a matéria Overdrive de lâmpadas fluorescentes! Por Vinicius A. Lopes
                                                  PS.: Muito bom este texto, fala sobre como aumentar a potencia das lampadas! 
                                                   
                                                  Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                   
                                                  Veja a materia em:
                                                   
                                                  Se você não for um usuário registrado no fórum clique no link abaixo e realize seu registro, é fácil rápido e gratuito:
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Abraços,
                                                  GATTI
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4159 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 339
                                                  Hi, Rod. My daughter Erin (Witchywmn42) saw how huge my aponogetons from WalMart got, and since the additional "remedy" for high nitrate levels (in addition to water changes) was "more plants", she tried them, too.

                                                  Hers are growing a lot slower than mine did - mine are at full size (20") and flowering like crazy, but take up a lot of space in my aquarium. I started mine in April when I started my fishless cycle, so I assumed they were feeding off the ammonia & other nitrogen compounds, not just the storage of nutrients in the bulbs. I will let y'all know if they should die off in future months and not come back - I think I would rather they did, so I could get some smaller plants more in scale with my 10 gallon tank! (And the cabomba, and the water lilys - all are what I found available here, and all are huge and taking over my tank!) I started to give my plants liquid fertilizer, to maintain the iron at 0.25 to 0.5 ppm as recommended, once the cycle was over with.

                                                  The species A. crispus, per my pond plant book, is said not to need a dormant period in cool water, as the others do; in theory, the leaves of other Aponogetons are supposed to die off, then you are supposed to move them to a cold water site for a period of time (several weeks), then drop them back in, and they will regrow. (Many perennials, and all bulbs, die off above ground at the end of their growing season, and come back in the spring.) Different books and resources have different info about the various species of Aponogetons, and we are not sure which species these are. I am not sure about other differences; I do know the Madagascar Lace variety is said to be extremely difficult.

                                                  I also have Riccia and Java Moss in my tank; I have had to dump most of my Riccia into my pond because it was covering most of the surface and no light could get to those below. The only plant I have had die on me, so far, has been a Water Sprite... it was in bad shape from the start. But this is a relatively new tank.

                                                  Audrey


                                                  >
                                                  > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Date: 2004/08/11 Wed AM 10:09:18 EDT
                                                  >Message: 12
                                                  > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 06:54:23 -0700 (PDT)
                                                  > From: "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                                                  >Subject: Re: Re: Substrates
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Wouldn't really want to be a spoiler but one of the reasons that aponogetons >and water lilies
                                                  >do not immediately show signs of not doing well is because they feed off the >stored food in
                                                  >their bulbs. I don't consider a plant doing really well until after 6 months. >Even the false
                                                  >aquarium plants can last that long on stored food until they suddenly fall >apart. I've
                                                  >helplessly watch my crinum calamistratum which has put out leaf after leaf >suddenly
                                                  >disintegrate after it has exhausted its bulb after 4 months. I'd like to try >just how durable
                                                  >bulbous aponogetons are (allegedly hardier hybrids of the original varieties) >but they aren't
                                                  >available here..
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Rod
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4160 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
                                                  Yes, they're Carinotetraodon travancoricus. I have 4 in an Eclipse 5 with 2 bumblebee gobies and 1 oto (recently lost my second). It may seem a bit overstocked but I've never had problems between any of the fish and the water parameters are excellent.
                                                   
                                                  The gobies were kept in a low-salt brackish tank at the lfs. When I bought them I added a low amount of salt to the tank and gradually reduced it over a long period of time to where the tank is now freshwater.
                                                   
                                                  Now that my puffers are a bit older I can see I have 2 males and 2 females. My first 2 were in a 10g community and nipped every fish they could get! But I have no issues with keeping 4 in a 5g. I consider mine peaceful as well in this tank although like I said they will eat ghost shrimp.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 7:57 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:Dwarf Puffers

                                                  Hello, Dan and Theresa. Were you referring to dwarf puffers of the genus Travancoricus (Indian true freshwater dwarf puffers no bigger than 1"; I don't think they can tolerate salt in their water)? I've kept mine with ghost shrimp, Amano shrimp, Badis siamensis, panda corys and flagfish fry but never saw it attack anything other than tubifex worms and snails and another dwarf puffer. Even between males there was no fin nipping, just a lot of posturing and chasing around (they comically look like tiny yellow blimps squaring off). When I bought them on impulse, I thought I bought fin-nippers for sure but they coexisted very peacefully with the rest of their tankmates and are rather shy.
                                                   
                                                  However, I've seen spotted and figure-8 puffers (also considered dwarfs but Southeast Asian brackish waters of origin but can survive in freshwater) steadily hunt down and eat other fishes a lot faster and bigger than them alive and painfully bit by bit..."fin-nipper" is a pretty tame description for these guys.
                                                   
                                                  Just wanting to know if my fishes are behaving unusually nice for puffers,
                                                   
                                                  Rod
                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4161 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                  Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                  Attachments :
                                                    "it is always best to transport in smaller amounts of water as a large amount of water will slosh a lot more and cause the fish to bang against the sides of whatever they are in."
                                                        I can say from experience, it is much better for the fish and carpet of the vehicle to use small amounts of water.  Sealed bags will hold in the water much better than a bucket with a lid on it. :)
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    Patrick N.
                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4162 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                    Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                    Attachments :
                                                          Don't paint the tank.  It may seem good now, but you will regret it one day when you would like a new background. :)
                                                       
                                                      Patrick N.
                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                      What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?
                                                       
                                                      I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a tank?
                                                       
                                                      Cheers,
                                                       
                                                      Daniel
                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4163 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION
                                                      no, there are no roots going in, the pond has only been in for about 2
                                                      months fully. i also forgot to mention that we have a lot of plants in
                                                      there too, including one elephant's ear that is growing at an almost
                                                      disturbing rate. it's been replanted 3 times in the past two months
                                                      because of how big it's getting and i suspect that is adding to the
                                                      evaporation because of the surface area of the leaves.
                                                      amalthea
                                                      On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:47 AM, Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                      > I seemed to have missed the original post? Anyhow.
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      > My large tank with a surface area of 10sq feet easily lost 1-1.5” of
                                                      > water every day when it was tropical and in winters and obviously
                                                      > uncovered. But 4” of water loss on a 40sqft pond sounds like a lot to
                                                      > me. Can you do a few more tests to see what the water temperature and
                                                      > outside temperatures are? Logically, if water temperature remains
                                                      > warmer then the air temperature, there should be more evaporation.
                                                      > Your case seems to be the other way round??? If at night there was no
                                                      > evaporation then it defiantly has to do with the waterfall and
                                                      > fountain causing too much evaporation. Do you feel a lot humid when
                                                      > coming near the pond?
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      > Are there any trees whose roots could have made way into the pond?
                                                      > This is also a big possibility though.
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      > Nim
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                      > Sent: 11 August 2004 15:27
                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 338 -
                                                      > EVAPORATION
                                                      >
                                                      >  
                                                      >
                                                      > i did a test. i turned off the waterfall, (i had already done a
                                                      > daytime test without the waterfall, and the level still fell) lowered
                                                      > the other sprayer so it goes right into the water with no splash and
                                                      > then did a refill at dusk. this time, about 12 hours later, there was
                                                      > absolutely no change in the level. this seems to exclude a leak as the
                                                      > problem so i'm going on the assumption that i just have a ton of
                                                      > evaporation going on. our waterfall is over flat rocks in the sun all
                                                      > day (that area is in the sun) and between that, the sprayer and the
                                                      > dry winds we had all weekend, i think it's definitely evaporation.
                                                      > amalthea
                                                      > On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:10 AM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > You may have to top off your pond quite a bit in the summer if you are
                                                      > not getting much rain. If your pond is shaded as you say, that means
                                                      > you have trees nearby, and the roots could be invading the liner. You
                                                      > might also be getting water seeping out from your waterfall. And
                                                      > anytime you spray water up into the air, like with a fountain, it
                                                      > increases evaporation rates... plus if it extends anywhere near the
                                                      > edges of the pond, any small gust of wind will carry it to the ground
                                                      > nearby.
                                                      > =============================================================
                                                      > I would say 4" of evaporation per day is unusual.  I have never had
                                                      > to add water to my pond more than every week or so, and then not much.
                                                      >  If tree roots are invading your liner - you have a leak.  If you have
                                                      > a waterfall, make sure there is a flat rock guiding the water back
                                                      > into the pond, and not backwards away from the pond.  A fountain can
                                                      > lose you a lot of water if you have a lot of wind.  But, in general, I
                                                      > would suspect a leak in the liner.
                                                      >
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                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4164 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION

                                                      Ah. Elephantear is indeed a very water hungry plant. In good conditions you can notice droplets of water on its leaf. Some of the Ivy (eg: Devil’s Ivy) are also water hungry sources and can easily consume a lot of water in dry conditions. This is a big possibility but also keep a watch on the difference in temperatures of the atmosphere and the water. This may help determine something as well J

                                                       

                                                      Nim

                                                       

                                                       


                                                      From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                      Sent: 11 August 2004 21:23
                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION

                                                       

                                                      no, there are no roots going in, the pond has only been in for about 2 months fully. i also forgot to mention that we have a lot of plants in there too, including one elephant's ear that is growing at an almost disturbing rate. it's been replanted 3 times in the past two months because of how big it's getting and i suspect that is adding to the evaporation because of the surface area of the leaves.
                                                      amalthea
                                                      On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:47 AM , Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                      I seemed to have missed the original post? Anyhow.

                                                       

                                                      My large tank with a surface area of 10sq feet easily lost 1-1.5” of water every day when it was tropical and in winters and obviously uncovered. But 4” of water loss on a 40sqft pond sounds like a lot to me. Can you do a few more tests to see what the water temperature and outside temperatures are? Logically, if water temperature remains warmer then the air temperature, there should be more evaporation. Your case seems to be the other way round??? If at night there was no evaporation then it defiantly has to do with the waterfall and fountain causing too much evaporation. Do you feel a lot humid when coming near the pond?

                                                       

                                                      Are there any trees whose roots could have made way into the pond? This is also a big possibility though.

                                                       

                                                      Nim

                                                       

                                                       


                                                      From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                      Sent: 11 August 2004 15:27
                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 338 - EVAPORATION

                                                       

                                                      i did a test. i turned off the waterfall, (i had already done a daytime test without the waterfall, and the level still fell) lowered the other sprayer so it goes right into the water with no splash and then did a refill at dusk. this time, about 12 hours later, there was absolutely no change in the level. this seems to exclude a leak as the problem so i'm going on the assumption that i just have a ton of evaporation going on. our waterfall is over flat rocks in the sun all day (that area is in the sun) and between that, the sprayer and the dry winds we had all weekend, i think it's definitely evaporation.
                                                      amalthea
                                                      On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:10 AM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                      You may have to top off your pond quite a bit in the summer if you are not getting much rain. If your pond is shaded as you say, that means you have trees nearby, and the roots could be invading the liner. You might also be getting water seeping out from your waterfall. And anytime you spray water up into the air, like with a fountain, it increases evaporation rates... plus if it extends anywhere near the edges of the pond, any small gust of wind will carry it to the ground nearby.
                                                      =============================================================
                                                      I would say 4" of evaporation per day is unusual.  I have never had to add water to my pond more than every week or so, and then not much.  If tree roots are invading your liner - you have a leak.  If you have a waterfall, make sure there is a flat rock guiding the water back into the pond, and not backwards away from the pond.  A fountain can lose you a lot of water if you have a lot of wind.  But, in general, I would suspect a leak in the liner.

                                                              





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                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4165 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                      i think i agree nim thanks..shannon

                                                      Obviously every situation is different. The previous thread was for moving them to short distances. Also, putting the fish from a 30 gallon tank into a 35 gallon container/bucket/tub should not stress them much.. obviously it will be much less of a stress then putting them in1-2 liter bag. Moving 2000 miles is something I could never dream of in my worse nightmare. If I were to do this, I would prefer to sell of the tank and fish and other stuff that would cause problems and buy them again in the final destination. Glass tank is cheap.. I am sure a small-medium tank will be cheaper to buy new (just the glass tank) then to ship an existing one.

                                                       

                                                      Nim

                                                       

                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4166 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                      ok for me this was the hardest decision as well and i ended up making the worst one... decision that was.. for one thing i was very new to this and however i did my reserach for like 3 months and bought things slowly no one mentioned that iw oudl need a back ground... how nuts was that... so i had my tnak all filled and fish in it and i wasl ike something is wrong... so i went and reaslized i needed somethign to cover my wires and my local fish lady who i love and has never done me wrong and did i metion she is only 19 she is like a pro. i just love her.. anyhow she told me what to get and i saw the light 6 choices lol and i am such a color person and she was showing me the freshwater ones then i see the salt water ones.. an di loved them cuase they had color and so i freaking bought a salt water background in my freshwater tanks.. oh yea.. i am original lol shannon
                                                      at are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO). I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?
                                                       
                                                      I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a tank?
                                                       
                                                      Cheers,
                                                       
                                                      Daniel
                                                       
                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4167 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: zebra botia
                                                      i just got one wasnt planned but i was at my LFS and my fav lady said that she has one and it eats her snails.. i have one snail i see and it is driving me nuts watching it on the side of the tank im waitng for the kill lol... i now somoen said they smash the snails am i supposed to do that.. does anyonw else have a zebra botia in a community tank...shannon
                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4168 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Digest 339 - TANK BACKGROUNDS
                                                      Subject: RE: Digest Number 339     -     TANK BACKGROUNDS

                                                      A mirror interesting, never heard of that being done before! How do the
                                                      fish react to it?
                                                      ============================================================
                                                      No problem unless it's a male Betta.  Sometimes they get faked out and attack their reflection.  But after a while, they usually get used to it.  Also a small problem with some aggressive cichlids, but they also get used to it.
                                                      Give it a try and see what happens.
                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4170 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                      What dose this have to do with FISH?
                                                       
                                                      Robb
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:27 PM
                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes



                                                      The following hit my local newspaper in print form last week, don't
                                                      know if all of you saw it in our own papers and there has been no
                                                      chat about it. the continuing saga!  I believe my after dinner
                                                      'comedic' (at least I hope so) talk at Northeast Council last year
                                                      was prophetic - I suggested there, then tongue in cheek, that the
                                                      violins were fake.  who knew? (not me)



                                                      the link is:

                                                      http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/08/01/565934-ap.html

                                                      --
                                                      Tycoon sold fake violins to N.J. orchestra: report




                                                      NEWARK, N.J. (AP) - Five of 30 supposedly rare stringed instruments
                                                      bought by the New Jersey Symphony for $17 million US from a man now
                                                      under indictment for tax fraud are probably not authentic, a
                                                      newspaper reported Sunday.

                                                      Five experts contacted by the Sunday Star-Ledger of Newark determined
                                                      that four violins and one cello - among a collection purchased from
                                                      pet products tycoon Herbert Axelrod - were not produced by the master
                                                      craftsmen named by Axelrod.

                                                      The experts made their appraisal after viewing photographs of the
                                                      instruments, the newspaper said. One of the five, a violin, was
                                                      wrongly represented as a Domenico Montagnana made in 1740, they said.

                                                      The Golden Age Collection of 30 violins, violas and cellos includes
                                                      rare works said to be made by such famed craftsmen as Antonio
                                                      Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu during the 17th and 18th
                                                      centuries. Axelrod had valued the collection at $49 million - a
                                                      figure some say is vastly inflated.

                                                      The symphony's official appraisal for the five instruments the
                                                      experts examined is nearly $2.6 million. The appraisers said the
                                                      instruments are worth "a fraction" of that, though they did not give
                                                      a specific amount.

                                                      In addition, the experts said one violin appraised at $3.3 million is
                                                      probably not the work of Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu, but rather his
                                                      father. If that is true, the instrument would be worth more than $2
                                                      million less than appraised, the newspaper reported.

                                                      The five experts include Charles Beare, head of a London-based firm
                                                      that appraises and sells violins, and Robert Bein of Chicago, one of
                                                      the world's busiest dealers in expensive violins.

                                                      Axelrod, 77, was indicted in April and fled to Cuba and then Europe.
                                                      He was arrested in Germany on June 15 and is jailed in Berlin pending
                                                      extradition.

                                                      The FBI and Internal Revenue Service are investigating whether
                                                      Axelrod inflated the instrument appraisals as part of a plan to take
                                                      fraudulent tax deductions.




                                                              



                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4171 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                      i finally figured out what my neons have or some of them i love these fish but i keep getting fish that have this or how are they getting it... help.  i have resreached on the net but it is jsut telling me what it is not how to treat it.. shannon
                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4172 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                      Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                      Attachments :
                                                            You must not read many fish books or magazines. :)  Axelrod was a very important person to aquaria.  He had a company that he sold that produces many books and a magazine about fish keeping.  He was highly respected, though sometimes he is a little "different".
                                                         
                                                        Patrick N.
                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                        What dose this have to do with FISH?
                                                         
                                                        Robb
                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4173 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                        Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                        Attachments :
                                                              Most loaches (botias) will eat snails, so I would think a zebra would probably take the snails out to lunch, literally. :)  I used to like my snails, I even defended them to people who warned me about them, but the day I have feared has come, the snails are multiplying too fast.  I think I will look for a kuhli loach.
                                                           
                                                          Patrick N.
                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                          i just got one wasnt planned but i was at my LFS and my fav lady said that she has one and it eats her snails.. i have one snail i see and it is driving me nuts watching it on the side of the tank im waitng for the kill lol... i now somoen said they smash the snails am i supposed to do that.. does anyonw else have a zebra botia in a community tank...shannon
                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4174 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                          Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                          Attachments :
                                                                I don't think there is a treatment for NTD.  Maybe a new treatment has been created, but last I heard is it is untreatable.  Sorry, maybe I'm wrong. :(
                                                             
                                                            Patrick N.
                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                            i finally figured out what my neons have or some of them i love these fish but i keep getting fish that have this or how are they getting it... help.  i have resreached on the net but it is jsut telling me what it is not how to treat it.. shannon
                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4175 From: wendie Date: 8/11/2004
                                                            Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                            Attachments :
                                                              I met Dr Axelrod back in the early 60's when his magazine
                                                              was extremely popular.  I met several of the top writers
                                                              at that point and toured his place in Jersey City.  He had
                                                              a beautiful 6 foot freshwater tank just opposite his desk
                                                              in his office.  At that point in time he was still going out
                                                              collecting new species every six months - Asia, South America, etc.
                                                              He wanted me to work for him.  I unfortunately or fortunately
                                                              declined because I was very uncomfortable with the way he wanted
                                                              to handle the various income taxes. 
                                                               
                                                               
                                                               -----Original Message-----
                                                              From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:12 PM
                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes

                                                                  You must not read many fish books or magazines. :)  Axelrod was a very important person to aquaria.  He had a company that he sold that produces many books and a magazine about fish keeping.  He was highly respected, though sometimes he is a little "different".
                                                               
                                                              Patrick N.
                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                              What dose this have to do with FISH?
                                                               
                                                              Robb


                                                                      



                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4176 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                              Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                              what is a kuhli loach.. i didnt realize it was a loach she was just calling it a botias lol... so is there anything i should know about loaches i think i have heard them be quiet dicussed in this group... but i still dont know if i am supposed to crush the snails or just let her like what catch them... shannon
                                                                Most loaches (botias) will eat snails, so I would think a zebra would probably take the snails out to lunch, literally. :)  I used to like my snails, I even defended them to people who warned me about them, but the day I have feared has come, the snails are multiplying too fast.  I think I will look for a kuhli loach.
                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4177 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                              Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                              Attachments :
                                                                See, that's what I meant by "different". :)
                                                                 
                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                I met Dr Axelrod back in the early 60's when his magazine
                                                                was extremely popular.  I met several of the top writers
                                                                at that point and toured his place in Jersey City.  He had
                                                                a beautiful 6 foot freshwater tank just opposite his desk
                                                                in his office.  At that point in time he was still going out
                                                                collecting new species every six months - Asia, South America, etc.
                                                                He wanted me to work for him.  I unfortunately or fortunately
                                                                declined because I was very uncomfortable with the way he wanted
                                                                to handle the various income taxes. 
                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4178 From: Patrick Date: 8/11/2004
                                                                Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                                Attachments :
                                                                      Oh, I misunderstood you.  The loach (botia is the family name for loaches, by the way, botia Striata is the scientific name) will probably just eat the snail without you interfering much.  CLICK here to see a page about this species.  That looks like a nice fish.  Is that what you have?
                                                                   
                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4179 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                                  Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                                  yea patrick that is what i have.. the LFS lady that i love you know says that they nver get them that she thinks they were or are rare... it was between him an d askunk botia or loach.. this one was smaller and seemed more active the other just hid under the decorations... this guys is all over my tank.. i have already took out one neon cuase she or he was pratically dead i think i have another that is sick i love the neons but they are the one fish that i guess i have the least luck with... thanks for the link that is the same kinda page that i got the info on the NTD shannon:
                                                                      Oh, I misunderstood you.  The loach (botia is the family name for loaches, by the way, botia Striata is the scientific name) will probably just eat the snail without you interfering much.  CLICK here to see a page about this species.  That looks like a nice fish.  Is that what you have?
                                                                   
                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4180 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/11/2004
                                                                  Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                                  Kuhlis are not botia, they are pangio. With loaches you shouldn't have to crush the snails, they'll take care of them without assistance.
                                                                   
                                                                  Most botia, including the zebra, are gregarious and like company of their own kind. They're generally unhappy if kept singly and you won't see their true personalities.
                                                                   
                                                                  Again I recomment Loaches.com as a great source of info on these fish http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/botia_striata.html
                                                                   
                                                                   
                                                                  ----- Original Message -----

                                                                  what is a kuhli loach.. i didnt realize it was a loach she was just calling it a botias lol... so is there anything i should know about loaches i think i have heard them be quiet dicussed in this group... but i still dont know if i am supposed to crush the snails or just let her like what catch them...
                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4181 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/11/2004
                                                                  Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                                  thanks so much for your help i was just wondring about crushing them cuase the snail appears bigger than the mouth of the loach lol... one a few cites i have seen so far they said the where there are more than one they get nippy... i didnt have room in my tank for this one so i hope he does ok by himself he has other bottom feeders to keep him happy i am hopping.. for now the lights are off and mabye all day tom.. cuase at the same time i added 2 plants.. shannon
                                                                  Kuhlis are not botia, they are pangio. With loaches you shouldn't have to crush the snails, they'll take care of them without assistance.
                                                                   
                                                                  Most botia, including the zebra, are gregarious and like company of their own kind. They're generally unhappy if kept singly and you won't see their true personalities.
                                                                   
                                                                  Again I recomment Loaches.com as a great source of info on these fish http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/botia_striata.html
                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4182 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                  Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                  Attachments :

                                                                    Even I had not heard of any treatment of this. But a treatment guide on PFK Magazine in the UK lists waterlife protazin and esha 2000 as possible cures to it.

                                                                    http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=105

                                                                    I am not sure if either of these medicines are available in the US .. Waterlife is a UK based company though.

                                                                     

                                                                    Nim

                                                                     

                                                                     


                                                                    From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                    Sent: 12 August 2004 04:18
                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] NTD neon tetra disease

                                                                     

                                                                        I don't think there is a treatment for NTD.  Maybe a new treatment has been created, but last I heard is it is untreatable.  Sorry, maybe I'm wrong. :(

                                                                     

                                                                    Patrick N.

                                                                    Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                    About my tanks:  

                                                                    29 gallon tank.

                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!

                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                    10 gallon tank.

                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.

                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus

                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                    -------Original Message-------

                                                                    i finally figured out what my neons have or some of them i love these fish but i keep getting fish that have this or how are they getting it... help.  i have resreached on the net but it is jsut telling me what it is not how to treat it.. shannon

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     



                                                                            




                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4183 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                                    If you do decide to paint the back of the tank, its not really too difficult to remove if you decide to do that at some point. With the use of one of those razor blade scrapers, a few swipes will remove the paint in long strips in no time, after a few passes. Also, no matter how sloppy you paint it, the brush strokes will not be seen when normally looking at the back of the tank from the front. At the point of contact between the surface of the glass and the covering paint, that rear surface will look smooth as silk when viewed from the front of the tank. The only thing you need to be concerned about is too light a brush stroke, leaving a streak where light may show through. Don't forget to mask the top and bottom frames so you don't mess them up. Ray
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4184 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                                    Most certainly you have heard of Herbert Axelrod. That is what this has to do with fish.
                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                    From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:37 PM
                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes

                                                                    What dose this have to do with FISH?
                                                                     
                                                                    Robb
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:27 PM
                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes



                                                                    The following hit my local newspaper in print form last week, don't
                                                                    know if all of you saw it in our own papers and there has been no
                                                                    chat about it. the continuing saga!  I believe my after dinner
                                                                    'comedic' (at least I hope so) talk at Northeast Council last year
                                                                    was prophetic - I suggested there, then tongue in cheek, that the
                                                                    violins were fake.  who knew? (not me)



                                                                    the link is:

                                                                    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/08/01/565934-ap.html

                                                                    --
                                                                    Tycoon sold fake violins to N.J. orchestra: report




                                                                    NEWARK, N.J. (AP) - Five of 30 supposedly rare stringed instruments
                                                                    bought by the New Jersey Symphony for $17 million US from a man now
                                                                    under indictment for tax fraud are probably not authentic, a
                                                                    newspaper reported Sunday.

                                                                    Five experts contacted by the Sunday Star-Ledger of Newark determined
                                                                    that four violins and one cello - among a collection purchased from
                                                                    pet products tycoon Herbert Axelrod - were not produced by the master
                                                                    craftsmen named by Axelrod.

                                                                    The experts made their appraisal after viewing photographs of the
                                                                    instruments, the newspaper said. One of the five, a violin, was
                                                                    wrongly represented as a Domenico Montagnana made in 1740, they said.

                                                                    The Golden Age Collection of 30 violins, violas and cellos includes
                                                                    rare works said to be made by such famed craftsmen as Antonio
                                                                    Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu during the 17th and 18th
                                                                    centuries. Axelrod had valued the collection at $49 million - a
                                                                    figure some say is vastly inflated.

                                                                    The symphony's official appraisal for the five instruments the
                                                                    experts examined is nearly $2.6 million. The appraisers said the
                                                                    instruments are worth "a fraction" of that, though they did not give
                                                                    a specific amount.

                                                                    In addition, the experts said one violin appraised at $3.3 million is
                                                                    probably not the work of Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu, but rather his
                                                                    father. If that is true, the instrument would be worth more than $2
                                                                    million less than appraised, the newspaper reported.

                                                                    The five experts include Charles Beare, head of a London-based firm
                                                                    that appraises and sells violins, and Robert Bein of Chicago, one of
                                                                    the world's busiest dealers in expensive violins.

                                                                    Axelrod, 77, was indicted in April and fled to Cuba and then Europe.
                                                                    He was arrested in Germany on June 15 and is jailed in Berlin pending
                                                                    extradition.

                                                                    The FBI and Internal Revenue Service are investigating whether
                                                                    Axelrod inflated the instrument appraisals as part of a plan to take
                                                                    fraudulent tax deductions.




                                                                            





                                                                            



                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4185 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                    While it is generally conceded that Neon Tetra Disease is incureable, there have been reports of successfully treating it with Nala-gram or a Furazone based medication. Have not tried this myself, so really can't say for sure, but maybe its worth a try. I know that the disease is highly contagious, so don't add any more neons until (if?) you get rid of the disease. If no luck in getting rid of the disease, try Cardinal Tetras next time -- they do not contract it. Ray
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4186 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Curiosidades sobre os Discos! Po
                                                                    Agora no fórum AquaBahia a matéria Curiosidades sobre os Discos! Por Julio (jccsfilho).
                                                                    PS.: Excelente texto, tem muitas dicas para criação! 
                                                                     
                                                                     
                                                                    Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                                     
                                                                    Veja a matéria em:
                                                                     
                                                                    Se você não for um usuário registrado no fórum clique no link abaixo e realize seu registro, é fácil rápido e gratuito:
                                                                     
                                                                     
                                                                    Abraços,
                                                                    GATTI
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4187 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                                    Shannon, Wow, 2000 miles is a bit far to transport your fish, realizing that they will be in transit for a good while. As was suggested, you might think about selling your fish in Oregon and buying new ones in Kentucky. Barring that idea, you should try to save most (at least 2/3) of the water if possible, as again was pointed out, by using large buckets of perhaps 5 gallon capacity each, with a large garbage bag inner liner, tied to prevent sloshing out. While you will need a number of these buckets, consider that each one will weight a bit over 40 lbs. each and that's probably as heavy as you want to lift. Yes, keep the gravel wet to save the bacteria. As far as the fish go, try getting some styrofoam fish transport boxes from your LFS -- most shops generally just throw them out as they keep getting them with each fish shipment. These boxes offer a good size surface area. Line the inside with crumpled newspaper or something similar to absorb any hard fish contacting. Then, use double "box bags" -- plastic fish bags as large as the box, and distribute your fish evenly in a number of these so they are not too crowded. Fill about 1/3 of the way with water; yes it will slosh some but you need a good air space over the water surface. Best bet by far is if you can get to a source of oxygen and fill the rest of each bag with this before you tie it off (rubber bands). The box lid in place will somewhat "tranquilize" the fish due to darkness. This will hold the fish a good long time -- usually up to several days. If you can't get oxygen, there are a number of inexpensive D-Cell battery operated portable air pumps on the market (Penn-Plax makes a good one) that you could use with airstones and some 3-way valves, depending upon how many boxes you have. You will have to keep the bags just loosely tied to allow the pumped in air to escape. This is the next best way. Otherwise, pack the fish really loosely using a few more styro's if needed. And, watch the outside temperature that it doesn't heat up or cool down the water too much. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4188 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                    Just out of curiosity, does it stay in the tank, or do you have to tear down and sterilize in some way?
                                                                    julie
                                                                    Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                    I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                    I know that the disease is highly contagious, so don't add any more neons until (if?) you get rid of the disease. If no luck in getting rid of the disease, try Cardinal Tetras next time -- they do not contract it. Ray

                                                                            



                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4189 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                                    if you're going 2000 miles and refuse to sell your fish (again, a MUCH
                                                                    better choice) the best bet would likely be to keep the amount you're
                                                                    completely unwilling to part with and ship them to yourself.
                                                                    amalthea
                                                                    On Aug 12, 2004, at 8:51 AM, sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                    > Shannon, Wow, 2000 miles is a bit far to transport your fish,
                                                                    > realizing that they will be in transit for a good while. As was
                                                                    > suggested, you might think about selling your fish in Oregon and
                                                                    > buying new ones in Kentucky. Barring that idea, you should try to save
                                                                    > most (at least 2/3) of the water if possible, as again was pointed
                                                                    > out, by using large buckets of perhaps 5 gallon capacity each, with a
                                                                    > large garbage bag inner liner, tied to prevent sloshing out. While you
                                                                    > will need a number of these buckets, consider that each one will
                                                                    > weight a bit over 40 lbs. each and that's probably as heavy as you
                                                                    > want to lift. Yes, keep the gravel wet to save the bacteria. As far as
                                                                    > the fish go, try getting some styrofoam fish transport boxes from your
                                                                    > LFS -- most shops generally just throw them out as they keep getting
                                                                    > them with each fish shipment. These boxes offer a good size surface
                                                                    > area. Line the inside with crumpled newspaper or something simi! lar
                                                                    > to absorb any hard fish contacting. Then, use double "box bags" --
                                                                    > plastic fish bags as large as the box, and distribute your fish evenly
                                                                    > in a number of these so they are not too crowded. Fill about 1/3 of
                                                                    > the way with water; yes it will slosh some but you need a good air
                                                                    > space over the water surface. Best bet by far is if you can get to a
                                                                    > source of oxygen and fill the rest of each bag with this before you
                                                                    > tie it off (rubber bands). The box lid in place will somewhat
                                                                    > "tranquilize" the fish due to darkness. This will hold the fish a good
                                                                    > long time -- usually up to several days. If you can't get oxygen,
                                                                    > there are a number of inexpensive D-Cell battery operated portable air
                                                                    > pumps on the market (Penn-Plax makes a good one) that you could use
                                                                    > with airstones and some 3-way valves, depending upon how many boxes
                                                                    > you have. You will have to keep the bags just loosely tied to allow
                                                                    > the pumped in air to escape. This is the next best way. Otherwise,
                                                                    > pack the fish really loosely using a fe! w more styro's if needed.
                                                                    > And, watch the outside temperatu re that it doesn't heat up or cool
                                                                    > down the water too much. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                    >
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                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4190 From: harry perry Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself
                                                                    A lot of great ideas and good folks trying to help. A pleasure being a member. Something else that might help. Don't feed the fish for at least 3 days before shipping. That way the water won't become as fouled. Shannon after you reach Kentucky tell us about the BBQ. Another passion of mine. Thanks.
                                                                     
                                                                    Harry 

                                                                    amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                    if you're going 2000 miles and refuse to sell your fish (again, a MUCH
                                                                    better choice) the best bet would likely be to keep the amount you're
                                                                    completely unwilling to part with and ship them to yourself.
                                                                    amalthea
                                                                    On Aug 12, 2004, at 8:51 AM, sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                    > Shannon, Wow, 2000 miles is a bit far to transport your fish,
                                                                    > realizing that they will be in transit for a good while. As was
                                                                    > suggested, you might think about selling your fish in Oregon and
                                                                    > buying new ones in Kentucky. Barring that idea, you should try to save
                                                                    > most (at least 2/3) of the water if possible, as again was pointed
                                                                    > out, by using large buckets of perhaps 5 gallon capacity each, with a
                                                                    > large garbage bag inner liner, tied to prevent sloshing out. While you
                                                                    > will need a number of these buckets, consider that each one will
                                                                    > weight a bit over 40 lbs. each and that's probably as heavy as you
                                                                    > want to lift. Yes, keep the gravel wet to save the bacteria. As far as
                                                                    > the fish go, try getting some styrofoam fish transport boxes from your
                                                                    > LFS -- most shops generally just throw them out as they keep getting
                                                                    > them with each fish shipment. These boxes offer a good size surface
                                                                    > area. Line the inside with crumpled newspaper or something simi! lar
                                                                    > to absorb any hard fish contacting. Then, use double "box bags" --
                                                                    > plastic fish bags as large as the box, and distribute your fish evenly
                                                                    > in a number of these so they are not too crowded. Fill about 1/3 of
                                                                    > the way with water; yes it will slosh some but you need a good air
                                                                    > space over the water surface. Best bet by far is if you can get to a
                                                                    > source of oxygen and fill the rest of each bag with this before you
                                                                    > tie it off (rubber bands). The box lid in place will somewhat
                                                                    > "tranquilize" the fish due to darkness. This will hold the fish a good
                                                                    > long time -- usually up to several days. If you can't get oxygen,
                                                                    > there are a number of inexpensive D-Cell battery operated portable air
                                                                    > pumps on the market (Penn-Plax makes a good one) that you could use
                                                                    > with airstones and some 3-way valves, depending upon how many boxes
                                                                    > you have. You will have to keep the bags just loosely tied to allow
                                                                    > the pumped in air to escape. This is the next best way. Otherwise,
                                                                    > pack the fish really loosely using a fe! w more styro's if needed.
                                                                    > And, watch the outside temperatu re that it doesn't heat up or cool
                                                                    > down the water too much. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                    >
                                                                    >         
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                    >
                                                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                    >
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                                                                    >
                                                                    > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                                    > Service.
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                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4191 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: FW: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                                    Respectfully, some of us haven't been involved in fish very long, me included. That is possibly why we are on this list.  So no, we surely haven't heard of Herbert Axelrod, and did wonder what this has to do with fish.  And thanks to Patrick for answering the question with, at least, an indulgent smile for us newbies. : )
                                                                    juli
                                                                    Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                    I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:10 AM
                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes

                                                                    Most certainly you have heard of Herbert Axelrod. That is what this has to do with fish.
                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                    From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:37 PM
                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes

                                                                    What dose this have to do with FISH?
                                                                     
                                                                    Robb
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:27 PM
                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW: axelrod's apparent fakes



                                                                    The following hit my local newspaper in print form last week, don't
                                                                    know if all of you saw it in our own papers and there has been no
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4192 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Digest Number 341 - PAULO GATTO
                                                                    In a message dated 8/12/04 10:20:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                    Veja a matéria em:
                                                                    aquabahia.com.br - Índice do Fórum -> Julio (jccsfilho) - Aquárismo diverso ->
                                                                    Curiosidades sobre os Discos

                                                                    OK - now you've got me curious.  How many people on this list understand Paulo ?????????????????????  I don't have any objection to it - just curious.
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4195 From: harry perry Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: A better question/To paul
                                                                    Dear Paul,
                                                                     
                                                                    I originally found this group Thur a link to Uniquaria. These folks pride themselves on the fact that it is an international group. So is ours. A better question might be can anyone help translate this message. This person might need our help.
                                                                     
                                                                    Harry 


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                                                                    Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4196 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                    thanks.. i think that is what happeend i had 3 oringinall and then one left over an di added 4 and the one left over is now gone but i think one of the new ones have it... shannon
                                                                    While it is generally conceded that Neon Tetra Disease is incureable, there have been reports of successfully treating it with Nala-gram or a Furazone based medication. Have not tried this myself, so really can't say for sure, but maybe its worth a try. I know that the disease is highly contagious, so don't add any more neons until (if?) you get rid of the disease. If no luck in getting rid of the disease, try Cardinal Tetras next time -- they do not contract it. Ray
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4197 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                                    thanks so muich very imformative... and totally waht i needed.. shannon
                                                                    Shannon, Wow, 2000 miles is a bit far to transport your fish, realizing that they will be in transit for a good while. As was suggested, you might think about selling your fish in Oregon and buying new ones in Kentucky. Barring that idea, you should try to save most (at least 2/3) of the water if possible, as again was pointed out, by using large buckets of perhaps 5 gallon capacity each, with a large garbage bag inner liner, tied to prevent sloshing out. While you will need a number of these buckets, consider that each one will weight a bit over 40 lbs. each and that's probably as heavy as you want to lift. Yes, keep the gravel wet to save the bacteria. As far as the fish go, try getting some styrofoam fish transport boxes from your LFS -- most shops generally just throw them out as they keep getting them with each fish shipment. These boxes offer a good size surface area. Line the inside with crumpled newspaper or something similar to absorb any hard fish contacting. Then, use double "box bags" -- plastic fish bags as large as the box, and distribute your fish evenly in a number of these so they are not too crowded. Fill about 1/3 of the way with water; yes it will slosh some but you need a good air space over the water surface. Best bet by far is if you can get to a source of oxygen and fill the rest of each bag with this before you tie it off (rubber bands). The box lid in place will somewhat "tranquilize" the fish due to darkness. This will hold the fish a good long time -- usually up to several days. If you can't get oxygen, there are a number of inexpensive D-Cell battery operated portable air pumps on the market (Penn-Plax makes a good one) that you could use with airstones and some 3-way valves, depending upon how many boxes you have. You will have to keep the bags just loosely tied to allow the pumped in air to escape. This is the next best way. Otherwise, pack the fish really loosely using a few more styro's if needed. And, watch the outside temperature that it doesn't heat up or cool down the water too much. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4198 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: A better question/To paul
                                                                    Harry
                                                                        I have been running the messages through systran, an online free trasnlating service.  I assumed it was portugese so ran portugese to english.  The translations are not direct match to english, but I can usually get the gist of it.  http://www.systransoft.com/
                                                                    julie
                                                                    Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                    I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                    Dear Paul,
                                                                     
                                                                    I originally found this group Thur a link to Uniquaria. These folks pride themselves on the fact that it is an international group. So is ours. A better question might be can anyone help translate this message. This person might need our help.
                                                                     
                                                                    Harry 

                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4199 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                    good question.. hadnt thought of that. omg i cant imagine the work with tearing down a tank i think it would take days.. shannon
                                                                    Just out of curiosity, does it stay in the tank, or do you have to tear down and sterilize in some way?
                                                                    julie
                                                                    Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                    I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4200 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too a few questions nim
                                                                    oh that is a good idea too... i am not refusing to do anything just was looking at all my possibilites.. i might jsut end up leaving the tank here for my mom who knows... shannon
                                                                    if you're going 2000 miles and refuse to sell your fish (again, a MUCH
                                                                    better choice) the best bet would likely be to keep the amount you're
                                                                    completely unwilling to part with and ship them to yourself.
                                                                    amalthea
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4201 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself fish wiiithout food
                                                                    thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them and then it takes like 5 days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve how long is to long withno food for them esp when there is no live plants for them to nibble on.. shannon
                                                                    lot of great ideas and good folks trying to help. A pleasure being a member. Something else that might help. Don't feed the fish for at least 3 days before shipping. That way the water won't become as fouled. Shannon after you reach Kentucky tell us about the BBQ. Another passion of mine. Thanks.
                                                                     
                                                                    Harry 
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4202 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                    Julie, No need to tear the tank down and sterilize everything with this disease, once you get rid of it in your fish (either by all infected ones dying off or recovering). The disease is a parasitic sporazoan which has a several phase cycle and needs a fish host to complete the cycle; it forms cysts in the intestinal wall. It does use intermediate hosts such as Tubifex worms. Your fish are at risk as long as they eat the sporazoan infected Tubifex or pick on dead fish that may have just succumbed to the disease. That is one reason to get dead fish out of the tank as soon as you see them. With no intermediate hosts and no more infected fish, this sporazoan cannot survive just in the tank water for very long without finding another host fish. So. as I said, once you get rid of the disease it cannot live past this point, however don't add more Neons to the tank right away; wait a little while instead of asking for trouble. Cardinal Tetras on the other hand are resistant to the disease as are most other fish although in a weakened state, any fish can get it but such cases are quite rare. Ray
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4203 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                    Julie, As you said that some parts of my message is missing, or that you didn't get the whole thing, I am repeating here the portion you may not have received: It is generally thought that Neon Tetra Disease is incurable. However, some people have had good results in treating the disease with the use of Nala-Gram or a Furazone based medication. Again, haven't tried this myself, so can't say one way or the other if it works, but I would think its worth a try.
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4204 From: utacutie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Foam? Help!
                                                                    Hi all,
                                                                    I noticed that a foam like/bubble substance has been collecting on
                                                                    top of the water and will not go away. I have 2 airstones running,
                                                                    but not sure if this is what is causing it. It doesn't seem to
                                                                    affect my fish (only have 1 tiger barb in the tank right now). My 29
                                                                    tank is currently cycling (ammonia: about .5, nitrite: .25 and
                                                                    nitrate: 5.0) Any ideas as to what this foam might be and how to get
                                                                    rid of it? Thanks!

                                                                    Erin
                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4205 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                    Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                          Thanks, I didn't know that about Kuhlis not being the same family.  I would prefer a member of the botia family, and after seeing those zebras, that would be nice. :)  Thanks for the link, too.
                                                                       
                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                      Kuhlis are not botia, they are pangio. With loaches you shouldn't have to crush the snails, they'll take care of them without assistance.
                                                                       
                                                                      Most botia, including the zebra, are gregarious and like company of their own kind. They're generally unhappy if kept singly and you won't see their true personalities.
                                                                       
                                                                      Again I recomment Loaches.com as a great source of info on these fish http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/botia_striata.html
                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4206 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 341 - PAULO GATTO
                                                                      Have been trying to follow Paulo via translation sites; more recently, I've been using his suggested link of <babel.altavista.com/tr>. It is in Portugese, however, I must confess that I don't understand all of what's written as the translation sites I've found don't seem to convert every word so it leaves you hanging. What is intelligible to me is interesting, but I do not know Portuguese and cannot "fill in the blanks", so unfortunately sometimes I'm left up in the air. SS
                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4207 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                      Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself fish wiiithout food
                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                            Fish can go a week with no food with no problem, and 2 weeks if needed.  I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you, and you are flying from where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2 day at the longest.  As long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you should be in KY before the fish come to your door. 
                                                                            And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the stuff you get north of the state line. :)
                                                                         
                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                        thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them and then it takes like 5 days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve how long is to long withno food for them esp when there is no live plants for them to nibble on.. shannon
                                                                         
                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4208 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                        Subject: Re: zebra botia
                                                                        so this is funny you know that one lone snail that i did not take out of my tank becuase i got the zebra botia.. ok wel lthe darn thing over night like doubled in size.. and it move or hauls or whatnot.. and it isnt being eaten.. maybe the zebra was not hungry i guess ill keep waiitng.. shannon:
                                                                            Thanks, I didn't know that about Kuhlis not being the same family.  I would prefer a member of the botia family, and after seeing those zebras, that would be nice. :)  Thanks for the link, too.
                                                                         
                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                        Kuhlis are not botia, they are pangio. With loaches you shouldn't have to crush the snails, they'll take care of them without assistance.
                                                                         
                                                                        Most botia, including the zebra, are gregarious and like company of their own kind. They're generally unhappy if kept singly and you won't see their true personalities.
                                                                         
                                                                        Again I recomment Loaches.com as a great source of info on these fish http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/botia_striata.html
                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4209 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                        Subject: Translating Portuguese
                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                              I think I remember that they are Brazilian Portuguese, so it might be slightly different from what a translator would be used to. :)  It is like people in the south speak southern English, people in the north speak "Yankee English", and people in England seem to speak some ancient form of...I mean true English.  And then there is Australia.  The same language is spoken differently in every nation it is used.  Translators can't keep up with that, and I suspect that is the problem.  I use google, and it does an ok job.
                                                                           
                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4210 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                          Subject: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself ...
                                                                          seriously fish can go a week with no food.. no joke.. but they need the light right.. you cant just laeve your tank off for 4 or 5 days with no light but the nautrual day light and no feed or can you... shannon
                                                                          Fish can go a week with no food with no problem, and 2 weeks if needed.  I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you, and you are flying from where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2 day at the longest.  As long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you should be in KY before the fish come to your door. 
                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4211 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                          Subject: Re: Foam? Help!
                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                I like those numbers. :)  The foam is from the food that is left in the tank.  Just suck the water off the surface with a gravel vacuum or a bucket.
                                                                             
                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                            Hi all,
                                                                            I noticed that a foam like/bubble substance has been collecting on
                                                                            top of the water and will not go away. I have 2 airstones running,
                                                                            but not sure if this is what is causing it. It doesn't seem to
                                                                            affect my fish (only have 1 tiger barb in the tank right now). My 29
                                                                            tank is currently cycling (ammonia: about .5, nitrite: .25 and
                                                                            nitrate: 5.0) Any ideas as to what this foam might be and how to get
                                                                            rid of it? Thanks!

                                                                            Erin
                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4212 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                            Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shipping to yourself ...
                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                              No light for a week is a common treatment for algae, so they are fine in the dark and with no food for a week. 
                                                                               
                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                              seriously fish can go a week with no food.. no joke.. but they need the light right.. you cant just laeve your tank off for 4 or 5 days with no light but the nautrual day light and no feed or can you... shannon
                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4213 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 342
                                                                              In a message dated 8/12/04 6:08:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                              julie
                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.


                                                                              I have the same problem.  Wonder if I got your missing parts ?????????
                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4214 From: L. F. Garcia Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                              Subject: Emails
                                                                              Hi,

                                                                              Going "No Emails" while I'm away on vacation.

                                                                              Thanks, see you all when I get back!

                                                                              Laura F. Garcia
                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4215 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                              Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                              Thanks Ray.  I will file that away.  I had been thinking of neons and all the sites I came to said they were suseptible, and that it was fatal, but not if it stuck around in the tank. Thanks again!
                                                                              julie
                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                              Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:50 PM
                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] NTD neon tetra disease

                                                                              Julie, No need to tear the tank down and sterilize everything with this disease,
                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4216 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 342
                                                                              If you have them, could you return them please.  I really could use them ; )
                                                                              julie
                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                                                              julie
                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.


                                                                              I have the same problem.  Wonder if I got your missing parts ?????????


                                                                                      



                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4217 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                              Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
                                                                              no way i am like totally freaking here i have been so worried cuase i am leaving for a month but my mom will take care of them but she is gone for a week inside of that and i was thinking my gpa was giogn to have to umm try and not kil lmy fish... so no light no food for a week... and that is ok... i just think they will get bored or something .. but is this goign to affect my live plants my entire tank is planted.. shannon
                                                                              No light for a week is a common treatment for algae, so they are fine in the dark and with no food for a week. 
                                                                               
                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                              seriously fish can go a week with no food.. no joke.. but they need the light right.. you cant just laeve your tank off for 4 or 5 days with no light but the nautrual day light and no feed or can you... shannon
                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4218 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                              Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                The plants will suffer, but maybe a little light will get to them.  If you are talking about no light when in the tank, just to to your lwm (local w-mart) or lhs (local hardware store) and pick up a cheap lighting timer that you plug the light into, and plug the timer into the wall.  Make sure it is the cheap mechanical type, not digital.  The simpler the better. :) 
                                                                                 
                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                no way i am like totally freaking here i have been so worried cuase i am leaving for a month but my mom will take care of them but she is gone for a week inside of that and i was thinking my gpa was giogn to have to umm try and not kil lmy fish... so no light no food for a week... and that is ok... i just think they will get bored or something .. but is this goign to affect my live plants my entire tank is planted.. shannon
                                                                                 
                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4221 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                Subject: hello all
                                                                                Hi evryone,

                                                                                Thanks for letting me join your community. I've posted a question
                                                                                about my tank that intro's my wet pets and the tank I'm in right
                                                                                now. I was part of another msn group that started losing focus on
                                                                                fish posts so thanks for your specificity. I look forward to being a
                                                                                part of the group.

                                                                                fshndglvr
                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4222 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
                                                                                Patrick is right on here. Go buy a timer. It also helps with the
                                                                                rhythm of your tank and can keep your tank on a cycle that isn't
                                                                                completely dependent on us. More routine equals less stress on the
                                                                                fish and a healthier tank all the way around.

                                                                                --- "Patrick" <americanfishguy@h...
                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                > The plants will suffer, but maybe a little light will get to them.
                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4223 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                Subject: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                Can't get my nitrates under control. After 5 days of pwc of 5-7 gl
                                                                                each still high. here are the specifics.

                                                                                29 gal community fresh H2O

                                                                                2 penguin 125 bio wheels on tank ( I know it a bit overkill but the
                                                                                second will go to my boys tank someday)
                                                                                chem reads like this

                                                                                NO3 80ppm
                                                                                NO2 0ppm
                                                                                ammonia 0ppm
                                                                                GH 130ppm
                                                                                KH 80ppm
                                                                                pH 6.8
                                                                                tank temp at 78 F

                                                                                I think the kh is the problem but can't get a handle on how to
                                                                                balance it.

                                                                                Our water is very hard and alkaline. To treat the water for pwc's I
                                                                                use Seachem neutral regulator to get to a pH of 7.0 or there about.

                                                                                The tank is well established and not overstocked
                                                                                4 neons (<1")
                                                                                1 rainbow (2")
                                                                                2 mollies (both under 1.5")
                                                                                3 guppies (1")
                                                                                1 golden algae eater (1.5")
                                                                                3 rasboras (all new <1")
                                                                                1 gourami dwarf (1.5")
                                                                                2 lamp eye tetras (1.5")

                                                                                Any ideas out there. I let my neighbor watch the fish whil on
                                                                                vacation and there were horribly overfed. I've vacuumed up so much
                                                                                food I could have fed another tank for days.

                                                                                Any ideas I need some help. Gotta go change the water again.
                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4224 From: Aaron Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                Subject: Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
                                                                                certainly, as it says at the bottom of the description on the Home
                                                                                Page,

                                                                                "Please feel free to post anything - links, photos, questions &
                                                                                advice."


                                                                                there is a folder in the Links section to put all your links as well

                                                                                Members Links
                                                                                post links to your aquarium related web sites, groups, forums,
                                                                                clubs, etc...

                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                > There seems to be some interest in this group in the Badis Badis
                                                                                Species. May I post a link to my group on this species. Thanks
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4225 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                Subject: Re: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                      That is like saying you can't talk about how stock in VP's old company is doing in a political forum (which this is not, so let's not go into that here, it is only an example).  Axlerod is an important figure in fishkeeping, and what is going on with him is clearly important to the entire fishkeeping world.  I think there are multiple fish named for him! :) 
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4226 From: paul helms Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                  Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                  80 ppm on nitrate sis not a big deal. a second
                                                                                  thing....if you are doing 5-7 gallon water change per
                                                                                  day for 5 days you have changed your entire tank out,
                                                                                  which is never a good idea in that amount of time. no
                                                                                  more than 20% should be changed in any given month
                                                                                  unless it is frequent small vhnages, which then 50%
                                                                                  per month mmay be ok, but at your rate you are going
                                                                                  to do more harm than good. by changing out 100% in a
                                                                                  week you may as well be starting your tank over. yes
                                                                                  you are better off than that if your biowheels are
                                                                                  healthy, but slow down.
                                                                                  --- fishndoglvr <fivesmiths@...> wrote:

                                                                                  > Can't get my nitrates under control. After 5 days
                                                                                  > of pwc of 5-7 gl
                                                                                  > each still high. here are the specifics.
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > 29 gal community fresh H2O
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > 2 penguin 125 bio wheels on tank ( I know it a bit
                                                                                  > overkill but the
                                                                                  > second will go to my boys tank someday)
                                                                                  > chem reads like this
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > NO3 80ppm
                                                                                  > NO2 0ppm
                                                                                  > ammonia 0ppm
                                                                                  > GH 130ppm
                                                                                  > KH 80ppm
                                                                                  > pH 6.8
                                                                                  > tank temp at 78 F
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > I think the kh is the problem but can't get a handle
                                                                                  > on how to
                                                                                  > balance it.
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > Our water is very hard and alkaline. To treat the
                                                                                  > water for pwc's I
                                                                                  > use Seachem neutral regulator to get to a pH of 7.0
                                                                                  > or there about.
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > The tank is well established and not overstocked
                                                                                  > 4 neons (<1")
                                                                                  > 1 rainbow (2")
                                                                                  > 2 mollies (both under 1.5")
                                                                                  > 3 guppies (1")
                                                                                  > 1 golden algae eater (1.5")
                                                                                  > 3 rasboras (all new <1")
                                                                                  > 1 gourami dwarf (1.5")
                                                                                  > 2 lamp eye tetras (1.5")
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > Any ideas out there. I let my neighbor watch the
                                                                                  > fish whil on
                                                                                  > vacation and there were horribly overfed. I've
                                                                                  > vacuumed up so much
                                                                                  > food I could have fed another tank for days.
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > Any ideas I need some help. Gotta go change the
                                                                                  > water again.
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  >




                                                                                  __________________________________
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                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4227 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                  Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                        I don't think hardness is connected to nitrates.  Nitrates aren't usually deadly to freshwater fish until well over 100ppm.  Still, 80 isn't good.  You should be changing 10 gallons every week on a 29 gallon tank.  The problem here is clear to me, maybe I'm wrong, but it is probably the overfeeding.  Do some 50% water changes for a few days and they should go down quickly.  Good luck!
                                                                                     
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                    Can't get my nitrates under control.  After 5 days of pwc of 5-7 gl
                                                                                    each still high.  here are the specifics.

                                                                                    29 gal community fresh H2O

                                                                                    2 penguin 125 bio wheels on tank ( I know it a bit overkill but the
                                                                                    second will go to my boys tank someday)
                                                                                    chem reads like this

                                                                                    NO3 80ppm
                                                                                    NO2 0ppm
                                                                                    ammonia 0ppm
                                                                                    GH 130ppm
                                                                                    KH 80ppm
                                                                                    pH 6.8
                                                                                    tank temp at 78 F

                                                                                    I think the kh is the problem but can't get a handle on how to
                                                                                    balance it.

                                                                                    Our water is very hard and alkaline.  To treat the water for pwc's I
                                                                                    use Seachem neutral regulator to get to a pH of 7.0 or there about. 

                                                                                    The tank is well established and not overstocked
                                                                                    4 neons (<1")
                                                                                    1 rainbow (2")
                                                                                    2 mollies (both under 1.5")
                                                                                    3 guppies (1")
                                                                                    1 golden algae eater (1.5")
                                                                                    3 rasboras (all new <1")
                                                                                    1 gourami dwarf (1.5")
                                                                                    2 lamp eye tetras (1.5")

                                                                                    Any ideas out there.  I let my neighbor watch the fish whil on
                                                                                    vacation and there were horribly overfed.  I've vacuumed up so much
                                                                                    food I could have fed another tank for days. 

                                                                                    Any ideas I need some help.  Gotta go change the water again.
                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4228 From: Patrick Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                    Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                          There are so many problems with that I'm not going to respond to them.  I will agree that 80 on nitrates is not terrible.  Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but everything else is wrong they way I'm reading it.
                                                                                       
                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                      80 ppm on nitrate sis not a big deal.  a second
                                                                                      thing....if you are doing 5-7 gallon water change per
                                                                                      day for 5 days you have changed your entire tank out,
                                                                                      which is never a good idea in that amount of time. no
                                                                                      more than 20% should  be changed in any given month
                                                                                      unless it is frequent small vhnages, which then 50%
                                                                                      per month mmay be ok, but at your rate you are going
                                                                                      to do more harm than good.  by changing out 100% in a
                                                                                      week you may as well be starting your tank over.  yes
                                                                                      you are better off than that if your biowheels are
                                                                                      healthy, but slow down.
                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4229 From: wendie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                      Subject: Re: axelrod's apparent fakes
                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                        I think he's responsible for half the fish that found their
                                                                                        way to home aquariums in the '60's and '70's.  His name sure
                                                                                        was on a bunch of them.  I know personally that he went out
                                                                                        on trips every six months.. each time to a different part of
                                                                                        the world looking for different species.  He was headed off
                                                                                        to South America when I saw him.
                                                                                        Wendie
                                                                                         
                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                        From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:22 PM
                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: axelrod's apparent fakes

                                                                                            That is like saying you can't talk about how stock in VP's old company is doing in a political forum (which this is not, so let's not go into that here, it is only an example).  Axlerod is an important figure in fishkeeping, and what is going on with him is clearly important to the entire fishkeeping world.  I think there are multiple fish named for him! :) 
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                



                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4230 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner
                                                                                        Harry,
                                                                                        I hope you post a link for us.
                                                                                        Thanks,
                                                                                        Dorothy


                                                                                        Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:
                                                                                        certainly, as it says at the bottom of the description on the Home
                                                                                        Page,

                                                                                        "Please feel free to post anything - links, photos, questions &
                                                                                        advice."


                                                                                        there is a folder in the Links section to put all your links as well

                                                                                        Members Links
                                                                                        post links to your aquarium related web sites, groups, forums,
                                                                                        clubs, etc...

                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                        <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                        > There seems to be some interest in this group in the Badis Badis
                                                                                        Species. May I post a link to my group on this species. Thanks

                                                                                        > Harry



                                                                                                




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                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4231 From: Julie Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: NTD neon tetra disease
                                                                                        I am not sure where you got that I said parts of your message were missing.  Is Yahell having hiccups again?  I did have someone reference my sigline.  Maybe this is where it came from???  Anyway, many thanks on the info on NTD!  Have a good one!
                                                                                        julie
                                                                                        Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                        I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:10 PM
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] NTD neon tetra disease

                                                                                        Julie, As you said that some parts of my message is missing, or that you didn't get the whole thing, I am repeating here the portion you may not have received: It is generally thought that Neon Tetra Disease is incurable. However, some people have had good results in treating the disease with the use of Nala-Gram or a Furazone based medication. Again, haven't tried this myself, so can't say one way or the other if it works, but I would think its worth a try.

                                                                                                



                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4232 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
                                                                                        really that will work... even if i have a push button switch for my lights... shannon
                                                                                        The plants will suffer, but maybe a little light will get to them.  If you are talking about no light when in the tank, just to to your lwm (local w-mart) or lhs (local hardware store) and pick up a cheap lighting timer that you plug the light into, and plug the timer into the wall.  Make sure it is the cheap mechanical type, not digital.  The simpler the better. :) 
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4235 From: harry perry Date: 8/12/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Permission to post./Dorothy.
                                                                                        Dorothy,
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Thank you and I certainly will post a link for your group.
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Harry

                                                                                        dorothy wheeler <duchess562000@...> wrote:
                                                                                        Harry,
                                                                                        I hope you post a link for us.
                                                                                        Thanks,
                                                                                        Dorothy


                                                                                        Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:
                                                                                        certainly, as it says at the bottom of the description on the Home
                                                                                        Page,

                                                                                        "Please feel free to post anything - links, photos, questions &
                                                                                        advice."


                                                                                        there is a folder in the Links section to put all your links as well

                                                                                        Members Links
                                                                                        post links to your aquarium related web sites, groups, forums,
                                                                                        clubs, etc...

                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                        <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                        > There seems to be some interest in this group in the Badis Badis
                                                                                        Species. May I post a link to my group on this species. Thanks

                                                                                        > Harry



                                                                                                




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                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4236 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                        Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not necessary. Whenever I buy fish on the internet, in the states most folks use the USPS 3 day priority. I haven't been               disappointed yet. So if you don't feed your fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k.. Use separate bags for each fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't kill everything else in the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks do a total blackout for at least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can figure out how to balance their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your major concern should be the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper to insulate.
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Harry

                                                                                        Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                            Fish can go a week with no food with no problem, and 2 weeks if needed.  I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you, and you are flying from where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2 day at the longest.  As long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you should be in KY before the fish come to your door. 
                                                                                            And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the stuff you get north of the state line. :)
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                        thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them and then it takes like 5 days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve how long is to long withno food for them esp when there is no live plants for them to nibble on.. shannon
                                                                                         


                                                                                                




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                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4237 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
                                                                                        Hello again! How do you differentiate between sexes of your dwarf puffers? Try as hard as I could, I could'nt distinguish them in the petshop's tank so I just bought 3 and hoped I got a pair. In two article I found on the net, males were suposed to be yellower, with a black stripe running from mouth to tail along the belly and had shiny green "ears" (crescent-shaped markings) behind the eyes but no differentiating marks that would identify a female. From the behavior, I assumed the fishes I got all had the same sex. I went back to purchase more but someone bought all the remaining puffers! But unlike yours, mine never developed a taste for fry or shrimp or fins, only live snails and worms. In fact, they were constantly chased away by the badis whenever they strayed into the lower levels of the tank. Now, I only have one left, which I have temporarily loned to a friend with snail problem in his tank. Could it be what I got was C. imitator, the other true freshwater dwarf puffer? Well, it doesn't really matter, as long as he gets along well with his tankmates. :-)
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Rod

                                                                                        Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                                                                        Yes, they're Carinotetraodon travancoricus. I have 4 in an Eclipse 5 with 2 bumblebee gobies and 1 oto (recently lost my second). It may seem a bit overstocked but I've never had problems between any of the fish and the water parameters are excellent.
                                                                                         
                                                                                        The gobies were kept in a low-salt brackish tank at the lfs. When I bought them I added a low amount of salt to the tank and gradually reduced it over a long period of time to where the tank is now freshwater.
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Now that my puffers are a bit older I can see I have 2 males and 2 females. My first 2 were in a 10g community and nipped every fish they could get! But I have no issues with keeping 4 in a 5g. I consider mine peaceful as well in this tank although like I said they will eat ghost shrimp.
                                                                                         


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                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4238 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon

                                                                                        Just to add on to Harry’s comment.

                                                                                        There are heat packs also available that keep sending out heat for 60+ hours and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at the top over a newspaper. This may be needed if the fish are going thru a cold region or in winters.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                         

                                                                                         


                                                                                        From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                        Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Shannon

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not necessary. Whenever I buy fish on the internet, in the states most folks use the USPS 3 day priority. I haven't been               disappointed yet. So if you don't feed your fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k.. Use separate bags for each fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't kill everything else in the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks do a total blackout for at least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can figure out how to balance their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your major concern should be the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper to insulate.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Harry

                                                                                        Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                            Fish can go a week with no food with no problem, and 2 weeks if needed.  I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you, and you are flying from where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2 day at the longest.  As long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you should be in KY before the fish come to your door. 

                                                                                            And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the stuff you get north of the state line. :)

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Patrick N.

                                                                                        Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                        About my tanks:  

                                                                                        29 gallon tank.

                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!

                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20, pH 6.4.

                                                                                        10 gallon tank.

                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.

                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus

                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                        -------Original Message-------

                                                                                        thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them and then it takes like 5 days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve how long is to long withno food for them esp when there is no live plants for them to nibble on.. shannon

                                                                                         

                                                                                         

                                                                                         

                                                                                         



                                                                                                



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                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4239 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...

                                                                                        Yes that will work. These timers plug in on the mains socket. You just have to keep the push button on the lights to on always and the power will be regulated by the timers. When they are supposed to come on, the light will get power, when they are not, they won’t. I have all my lights on timers so don’t have to bother about anything when I go out for a weekend… long holidays are scheduled in December and that is when it will be worrying me a bit.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                         


                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                        Sent: 13 August 2004 06:51
                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...

                                                                                         

                                                                                        really that will work... even if i have a push button switch for my lights... shannon

                                                                                        The plants will suffer, but maybe a little light will get to them.  If you are talking about no light when in the tank, just to to your lwm (local w-mart) or lhs (local hardware store) and pick up a cheap lighting timer that you plug the light into, and plug the timer into the wall.  Make sure it is the cheap mechanical type, not digital.  The simpler the better. :) 

                                                                                         



                                                                                                




                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4240 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                        Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                        Attachments :

                                                                                          I agree. Doing 20% water changes every day, you can never really change 100% of the water even in 20 water changes.

                                                                                          What is interesting is that with so much water changes every day, if the nitrates still sit at 80ppm, check your tap water for Nitrates. I think local authorities have to regulate Nitrate content at 50ppm as the maximum limit so there is something wrong somewhere. Either the test kit is knackered or your tap water is too bad. Investigate on this front as well.

                                                                                          Do you have any live plants? Live plants are the best way to control Nitrates as long as your tank is not over stocked.

                                                                                          Nim

                                                                                           


                                                                                          From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                          Sent: 13 August 2004 03:50
                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] help me balance this dang tank

                                                                                           

                                                                                              There are so many problems with that I'm not going to respond to them.  I will agree that 80 on nitrates is not terrible.  Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but everything else is wrong they way I'm reading it.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Patrick N.

                                                                                          Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                          About my tanks:  

                                                                                          29 gallon tank.

                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!

                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                          10 gallon tank.

                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.

                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus

                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                          80 ppm on nitrate sis not a big deal.  a second
                                                                                          thing....if you are doing 5-7 gallon water change per
                                                                                          day for 5 days you have changed your entire tank out,
                                                                                          which is never a good idea in that amount of time. no
                                                                                          more than 20% should  be changed in any given month
                                                                                          unless it is frequent small vhnages, which then 50%
                                                                                          per month mmay be ok, but at your rate you are going
                                                                                          to do more harm than good.  by changing out 100% in a
                                                                                          week you may as well be starting your tank over.  yes
                                                                                          you are better off than that if your biowheels are
                                                                                          healthy, but slow down.

                                                                                           

                                                                                           

                                                                                           



                                                                                                  




                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4241 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner

                                                                                          Yep.. I would love to keep them but they are so rare.

                                                                                          There was a nice article about badis on this months PFK Magazine (UK).. should be online on the website next month or so.. if not, ill scan it and post it J 3-4 pages I think.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Nim

                                                                                           

                                                                                           


                                                                                          From: dorothy wheeler [mailto:duchess562000@...]
                                                                                          Sent: 13 August 2004 06:03
                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Permission to post./Moderator/Owner

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Harry,

                                                                                          I hope you post a link for us.

                                                                                          Thanks,

                                                                                          Dorothy



                                                                                          Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:

                                                                                          certainly, as it says at the bottom of the description on the Home
                                                                                          Page,

                                                                                          "Please feel free to post anything - links, photos, questions &
                                                                                          advice."


                                                                                          there is a folder in the Links section to put all your links as well

                                                                                          Members Links
                                                                                          post links to your aquarium related web sites, groups, forums,
                                                                                          clubs, etc...

                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com , harry perry
                                                                                          <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                          > There seems to be some interest in this group in the Badis Badis
                                                                                          Species. May I post a link to my group on this species. Thanks

                                                                                          > Harry



                                                                                                  



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                                                                                          Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

                                                                                                  




                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4242 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: A link with permission.
                                                                                           
                                                                                           
                                                                                          This group is dedicated to the preservation, research, and breeding of this fascinating Genus of tropical fish. We hope to spread captive-bred specimens and information on the husbandry of this great group of fish.  Please go to This group is dedicated to the preservation, research, and breeding of this fascinating Genus of tropical fish. We hope to spread captive-bred specimens and information on the husbandry of this great group of fish.
                                                                                           
                                                                                          Harry


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                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4243 From: paul helms Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                          one quick note, don't put heat in the box with the
                                                                                          fish. when fish are shipped instead of delivered by a
                                                                                          distributor to a store, they are actually sent with
                                                                                          cold packs to keep the fish less active and less
                                                                                          stressed.
                                                                                          paul
                                                                                          --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                          > Just to add on to Harry's comment.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > There are heat packs also available that keep
                                                                                          > sending out heat for 60+ hours
                                                                                          > and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at the
                                                                                          > top over a newspaper.
                                                                                          > This may be needed if the fish are going thru a cold
                                                                                          > region or in winters.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Nim
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > _____
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                          > Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                          > shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not
                                                                                          > necessary. Whenever I buy
                                                                                          > fish on the internet, in the states most folks use
                                                                                          > the USPS 3 day priority.
                                                                                          > I haven't been disappointed yet. So if
                                                                                          > you don't feed your
                                                                                          > fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k..
                                                                                          > Use separate bags for each
                                                                                          > fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't
                                                                                          > kill everything else in
                                                                                          > the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks do
                                                                                          > a total blackout for at
                                                                                          > least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can
                                                                                          > figure out how to balance
                                                                                          > their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your
                                                                                          > major concern should be
                                                                                          > the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper to
                                                                                          > insulate.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Harry
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Fish can go a week with no food with no problem,
                                                                                          > and 2 weeks if needed.
                                                                                          > I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you,
                                                                                          > and you are flying from
                                                                                          > where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2
                                                                                          > day at the longest. As
                                                                                          > long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you
                                                                                          > should be in KY before
                                                                                          > the fish come to your door.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the
                                                                                          > stuff you get north of
                                                                                          > the state line. :)
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                          > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                          > gourami. I do not
                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                          > keepers!
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                          > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                          > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20, pH
                                                                                          > 6.4.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                          > June.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                          > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them
                                                                                          > and then it takes like 5
                                                                                          > days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve
                                                                                          > how long is to long
                                                                                          > withno food for them esp when there is no live
                                                                                          > plants for them to nibble
                                                                                          > on.. shannon
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > _____
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                          > Yahoo!
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                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4244 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                          In this tank there are only fake items for plants and styff. I wish
                                                                                          I had some plants. The last pwc, done last evening has changed the
                                                                                          h20 a bbit this am. still no ammonia or NO2 but nitrates still up
                                                                                          but better at 40ppm. KH still on ly moderate a 80 or 90. I know that
                                                                                          if I adjust the kh the pH can go wacky but will the bufferiung
                                                                                          capacity change also affect the nitrates. The nice thing is I know
                                                                                          the biofilter is good, however had a couple new fish go belly up
                                                                                          which always traumatizes my little boys. And cost some $. I want to
                                                                                          build this tank a bit more but think that till I get this under
                                                                                          control probably not a good idea. Thanks Nim I'll check local water
                                                                                          and the kit. I'd like to plant the tank but need to learn where to
                                                                                          begin. To this point I've taken a rouite that makes my kids happy as
                                                                                          well as me. My tank, this september 55gl will be planted. Patrick I
                                                                                          thought I was fairly clear but please let me know what needs fixed
                                                                                          the way you read it. I thought the tank was fairly healthy but if I
                                                                                          need adjustments let me know you thoughts. I want to learn so much
                                                                                          more than I have. thanks all for your help

                                                                                          -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish Mathur"
                                                                                          <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                          > I agree. Doing 20% water changes every day, you can never really
                                                                                          change 100%
                                                                                          > of the water even in 20 water changes.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > What is interesting is that with so much water changes every day,
                                                                                          if the
                                                                                          > nitrates still sit at 80ppm, check your tap water for Nitrates. I
                                                                                          think
                                                                                          > local authorities have to regulate Nitrate content at 50ppm as the
                                                                                          maximum
                                                                                          > limit so there is something wrong somewhere. Either the test kit is
                                                                                          > knackered or your tap water is too bad. Investigate on this front
                                                                                          as well.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Do you have any live plants? Live plants are the best way to control
                                                                                          > Nitrates as long as your tank is not over stocked.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Nim
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > _____
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@h...]
                                                                                          > Sent: 13 August 2004 03:50
                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] help me balance this
                                                                                          dang tank
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > There are so many problems with that I'm not going to respond
                                                                                          to them.
                                                                                          > I will agree that 80 on nitrates is not terrible. Maybe I am
                                                                                          > misunderstanding you, but everything else is wrong they way I'm
                                                                                          reading it.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html> Nitrogen
                                                                                          Cycle
                                                                                          > <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                          juli
                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                          ferns,
                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                          filter.
                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                          sponge
                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 80 ppm on nitrate sis not a big deal. a second
                                                                                          > thing....if you are doing 5-7 gallon water change per
                                                                                          > day for 5 days you have changed your entire tank out,
                                                                                          > which is never a good idea in that amount of time. no
                                                                                          > more than 20% should be changed in any given month
                                                                                          > unless it is frequent small vhnages, which then 50%
                                                                                          > per month mmay be ok, but at your rate you are going
                                                                                          > to do more harm than good. by changing out 100% in a
                                                                                          > week you may as well be starting your tank over. yes
                                                                                          > you are better off than that if your biowheels are
                                                                                          > healthy, but slow down.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
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                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4245 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                          thanks patrick
                                                                                          I aven't fed them in a couple days suspecting that as well but still
                                                                                          frustrated by the inability to lower below 80ppm. maybe like all
                                                                                          else with the wet ones it'll take a bit more time

                                                                                          chuck

                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                                                                                          <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                          > I don't think hardness is connected to nitrates. Nitrates
                                                                                          aren't
                                                                                          > usually deadly to freshwater fish until well over 100ppm. Still,
                                                                                          80 isn't
                                                                                          > good. You should be changing 10 gallons every week on a 29 gallon
                                                                                          tank.
                                                                                          > The problem here is clear to me, maybe I'm wrong, but it is
                                                                                          probably the
                                                                                          > overfeeding. Do some 50% water changes for a few days and they
                                                                                          should go
                                                                                          > down quickly. Good luck!
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                          juli
                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                          ferns,
                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                          filter.
                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                          sponge
                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                          > Can't get my nitrates under control. After 5 days of pwc of 5-7 gl
                                                                                          > each still high. here are the specifics.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 29 gal community fresh H2O
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 2 penguin 125 bio wheels on tank ( I know it a bit overkill but the
                                                                                          > second will go to my boys tank someday)
                                                                                          > chem reads like this
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > NO3 80ppm
                                                                                          > NO2 0ppm
                                                                                          > ammonia 0ppm
                                                                                          > GH 130ppm
                                                                                          > KH 80ppm
                                                                                          > pH 6.8
                                                                                          > tank temp at 78 F
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > I think the kh is the problem but can't get a handle on how to
                                                                                          > balance it.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Our water is very hard and alkaline. To treat the water for pwc's
                                                                                          I
                                                                                          > use Seachem neutral regulator to get to a pH of 7.0 or there
                                                                                          about.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > The tank is well established and not overstocked
                                                                                          > 4 neons (<1")
                                                                                          > 1 rainbow (2")
                                                                                          > 2 mollies (both under 1.5")
                                                                                          > 3 guppies (1")
                                                                                          > 1 golden algae eater (1.5")
                                                                                          > 3 rasboras (all new <1")
                                                                                          > 1 gourami dwarf (1.5")
                                                                                          > 2 lamp eye tetras (1.5")
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Any ideas out there. I let my neighbor watch the fish whil on
                                                                                          > vacation and there were horribly overfed. I've vacuumed up so much
                                                                                          > food I could have fed another tank for days.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Any ideas I need some help. Gotta go change the water again.
                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4246 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
                                                                                          Dear Paul,
                                                                                           
                                                                                           I didn't know there were such a thing as cold packs. Can you post a source? Thanks
                                                                                           
                                                                                          Harry

                                                                                          paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                          one quick note, don't put heat in the box with the
                                                                                          fish.  when fish are shipped instead of delivered by a
                                                                                          distributor to a store, they are actually sent with
                                                                                          cold packs to keep the fish less active and less
                                                                                          stressed.
                                                                                          paul
                                                                                          --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                          > Just to add on to Harry's comment.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > There are heat packs also available that keep
                                                                                          > sending out heat for 60+ hours
                                                                                          > and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at the
                                                                                          > top over a newspaper.
                                                                                          > This may be needed if the fish are going thru a cold
                                                                                          > region or in winters.
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Nim
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >   _____ 
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                          > Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                          > shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not
                                                                                          > necessary. Whenever I buy
                                                                                          > fish on the internet, in the states most folks use
                                                                                          > the USPS 3 day priority.
                                                                                          > I haven't been               disappointed yet. So if
                                                                                          > you don't feed your
                                                                                          > fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k..
                                                                                          > Use separate bags for each
                                                                                          > fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't
                                                                                          > kill everything else in
                                                                                          > the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks do
                                                                                          > a total blackout for at
                                                                                          > least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can
                                                                                          > figure out how to balance
                                                                                          > their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your
                                                                                          > major concern should be
                                                                                          > the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper to
                                                                                          > insulate.
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Harry
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >     Fish can go a week with no food with no problem,
                                                                                          > and 2 weeks if needed.
                                                                                          > I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you,
                                                                                          > and you are flying from
                                                                                          > where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2
                                                                                          > day at the longest.  As
                                                                                          > long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you
                                                                                          > should be in KY before
                                                                                          > the fish come to your door.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >     And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the
                                                                                          > stuff you get north of
                                                                                          > the state line. :)
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > About my tanks: 
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                          > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                          > gourami.  I do not
                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                          > keepers!
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                          > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                          > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20, pH
                                                                                          > 6.4.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                          > June.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                          > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them
                                                                                          > and then it takes like 5
                                                                                          > days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve
                                                                                          > how long is to long
                                                                                          > withno food for them esp when there is no live
                                                                                          > plants for them to nibble
                                                                                          > on.. shannon
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >

                                                                                          >
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                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4247 From: Patrick Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                          Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                I don't think KH has anything to do with nitrates, but it does have something to do with CO2 levels and pH.  I would personally not mess with KH or pH too much because a sudden change might be far worse than leaving it.  If you do decide to lower KH, the best way is probably using some RO water, but that is an expensive device.  Yeah, your biofilter is great! :)
                                                                                                Sorry, wasn't meaning you had too many problems, it was an overreaction to a post Paul made and I apologize to Paul because he was right in some ways.  You shouldn't go from 20% water changes every month to 20% daily.  You should already be doing 20-33% weekly in a non planted tank.  
                                                                                             
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                            In this tank there are only fake items for plants and styff.  I wish I had some plants.  The last pwc, done last evening has changed the h20 a bbit this am.  still no ammonia or NO2 but nitrates still up but better at 40ppm. KH still on ly moderate a 80 or 90.  I know that if I adjust the kh the pH can go wacky but will the bufferiung capacity change also affect the nitrates.  The nice thing is I know the biofilter is good, however had a couple new fish go belly up which always traumatizes my little boys.  And cost some $.  I want to build this tank a bit more but think that till I get this under control probably not a good idea.  Thanks Nim I'll check local water and the kit.  I'd like to plant the tank but need to learn where to begin.  To this point I've taken a rouite that makes my kids happy as well as me.  My tank, this september 55gl will be planted.  Patrick I thought I was fairly clear but please let me know what needs fixed the way you read it.  I thought the tank was fairly healthy but if I need adjustments let me know you thoughts.  I want to learn so much more than I have.  thanks all for your help
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4248 From: Patrick Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                            Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                              I think he works at a fish store, so he is a primary source. :) 
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Dear Paul,
                                                                                               
                                                                                               I didn't know there were such a thing as cold packs. Can you post a source? Thanks
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry
                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4249 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: Dwarf Puffers
                                                                                              Young puffers are difficult to sex. I had mine for months before I could determine which were male and which were female. I purchased mine the same way and ended up with 2 pairs.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Males definitely have a dark verticle line on the belly. When courting or feeling agressive the line is darker. Some sources say that the wrinkles behind the eyes are on all males; other say only some have them. Females have a rounder body shape than males. My males also have a more distinct color pattern than my females.
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                              Hello again! How do you differentiate between sexes of your dwarf puffers? Try as hard as I could, I could'nt distinguish them in the petshop's tank so I just bought 3 and hoped I got a pair. In two article I found on the net, males were suposed to be yellower, with a black stripe running from mouth to tail along the belly and had shiny green "ears" (crescent-shaped markings) behind the eyes but no differentiating marks that would identify a female. From the behavior, I assumed the fishes I got all had the same sex. I went back to purchase more but someone bought all the remaining puffers! But unlike yours, mine never developed a taste for fry or shrimp or fins, only live snails and worms. In fact, they were constantly chased away by the badis whenever they strayed into the lower levels of the tank. Now, I only have one left, which I have temporarily loned to a friend with snail problem in his tank. Could it be what I got was C. imitator, the other true freshwater dwarf puffer? Well, it doesn't really matter, as long as he gets along well with his tankmates. :-)
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Rod
                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4250 From: bryants4god Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
                                                                                              I ship 10 to 12 boxes of live snails a week and these are the cold packs I use.
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                              cheap, non-toxic, reusable and still cool after 2-3 days in a priority mail box.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                              From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 10:40 AM
                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul

                                                                                              Dear Paul,
                                                                                               
                                                                                               I didn't know there were such a thing as cold packs. Can you post a source? Thanks
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry

                                                                                              paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                              one quick note, don't put heat in the box with the
                                                                                              fish.  when fish are shipped instead of delivered by a
                                                                                              distributor to a store, they are actually sent with
                                                                                              cold packs to keep the fish less active and less
                                                                                              stressed.
                                                                                              paul
                                                                                              --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                              > Just to add on to Harry's comment.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > There are heat packs also available that keep
                                                                                              > sending out heat for 60+ hours
                                                                                              > and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at the
                                                                                              > top over a newspaper.
                                                                                              > This may be needed if the fish are going thru a cold
                                                                                              > region or in winters.
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >   _____ 
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              > Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                              > shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not
                                                                                              > necessary. Whenever I buy
                                                                                              > fish on the internet, in the states most folks use
                                                                                              > the USPS 3 day priority.
                                                                                              > I haven't been               disappointed yet. So if
                                                                                              > you don't feed your
                                                                                              > fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k..
                                                                                              > Use separate bags for each
                                                                                              > fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't
                                                                                              > kill everything else in
                                                                                              > the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks do
                                                                                              > a total blackout for at
                                                                                              > least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can
                                                                                              > figure out how to balance
                                                                                              > their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your
                                                                                              > major concern should be
                                                                                              > the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper to
                                                                                              > insulate.
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Harry
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >     Fish can go a week with no food with no problem,
                                                                                              > and 2 weeks if needed.
                                                                                              > I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you,
                                                                                              > and you are flying from
                                                                                              > where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2
                                                                                              > day at the longest.  As
                                                                                              > long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you
                                                                                              > should be in KY before
                                                                                              > the fish come to your door.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >     And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the
                                                                                              > stuff you get north of
                                                                                              > the state line. :)
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > About my tanks: 
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                              > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                              > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                              > gourami.  I do not
                                                                                              > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                              > keepers!
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20, pH
                                                                                              > 6.4.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                              > June.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                              > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them
                                                                                              > and then it takes like 5
                                                                                              > days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve
                                                                                              > how long is to long
                                                                                              > withno food for them esp when there is no live
                                                                                              > plants for them to nibble
                                                                                              > on.. shannon
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
                                                                                              >
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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4251 From: paul helms Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul
                                                                                              no i can't post a source, i am speaking form a
                                                                                              recieving stand point. when i get fish in the store
                                                                                              and they are delivered by courier instead of our
                                                                                              regular drivers, they have small crio pacs of ice in
                                                                                              the boxes. this is true with all of our coral
                                                                                              shipments as well. when the temp is lower, their
                                                                                              metabolism is slowed and they become less stressed
                                                                                              out. the bags are wrapped with newspaper so that they
                                                                                              do not get direct chill transfer through the bags, but
                                                                                              the ambient temp in the box is maintained.

                                                                                              --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                              > Dear Paul,
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > I didn't know there were such a thing as cold
                                                                                              > packs. Can you post a source? Thanks
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Harry
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:one quick
                                                                                              > note, don't put heat in the box with the
                                                                                              > fish. when fish are shipped instead of delivered by
                                                                                              > a
                                                                                              > distributor to a store, they are actually sent with
                                                                                              > cold packs to keep the fish less active and less
                                                                                              > stressed.
                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                              > --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > > Just to add on to Harry's comment.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > There are heat packs also available that keep
                                                                                              > > sending out heat for 60+ hours
                                                                                              > > and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at
                                                                                              > the
                                                                                              > > top over a newspaper.
                                                                                              > > This may be needed if the fish are going thru a
                                                                                              > cold
                                                                                              > > region or in winters.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Nim
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > _____
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > From: harry perry
                                                                                              > [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              > > Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                              > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                              > > shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not
                                                                                              > > necessary. Whenever I buy
                                                                                              > > fish on the internet, in the states most folks use
                                                                                              > > the USPS 3 day priority.
                                                                                              > > I haven't been disappointed yet. So
                                                                                              > if
                                                                                              > > you don't feed your
                                                                                              > > fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k..
                                                                                              > > Use separate bags for each
                                                                                              > > fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't
                                                                                              > > kill everything else in
                                                                                              > > the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks
                                                                                              > do
                                                                                              > > a total blackout for at
                                                                                              > > least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can
                                                                                              > > figure out how to balance
                                                                                              > > their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your
                                                                                              > > major concern should be
                                                                                              > > the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper
                                                                                              > to
                                                                                              > > insulate.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Harry
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Fish can go a week with no food with no
                                                                                              > problem,
                                                                                              > > and 2 weeks if needed.
                                                                                              > > I think the idea is that if they are shipped to
                                                                                              > you,
                                                                                              > > and you are flying from
                                                                                              > > where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2
                                                                                              > > day at the longest. As
                                                                                              > > long as your flight leaves and arrives on time,
                                                                                              > you
                                                                                              > > should be in KY before
                                                                                              > > the fish come to your door.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the
                                                                                              > > stuff you get north of
                                                                                              > > the state line. :)
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Patrick N.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                              > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > About my tanks:
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                              > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                              > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                              > 2
                                                                                              > > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                              > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                              > > gourami. I do not
                                                                                              > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                              > > keepers!
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                              > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                              > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                              > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                              > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20,
                                                                                              > pH
                                                                                              > > 6.4.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                              > > June.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                              > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                              > > filter.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed
                                                                                              > them
                                                                                              > > and then it takes like 5
                                                                                              > > days to move isnt that along time.. wont they
                                                                                              > starve
                                                                                              > > how long is to long
                                                                                              > > withno food for them esp when there is no live
                                                                                              > > plants for them to nibble
                                                                                              > > on.. shannon
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > _____
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                              > > Yahoo!
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/50x/*http:/promotions.yahoo.com/new
                                                                                              > > _mail/static/efficiency.html> Mail - 50x more
                                                                                              > > storage than other providers!
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                                                                                              > > etflix.com/Default?mqso=60183350> click here
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                                                                                              === message truncated ===




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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4252 From: paul helms Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                              as someone stated before, test your tap water for
                                                                                              nitrates. i know the in Sf bay area in CA the tap
                                                                                              water is 35-40 ppm. if you are changing out high
                                                                                              nitrate water with water still containing lower
                                                                                              levels, it will never be gone. prime and amquel+ both
                                                                                              take out nitrates, but the Amquel+ has more side
                                                                                              effects.

                                                                                              --- fishndoglvr <fivesmiths@...> wrote:

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > thanks patrick
                                                                                              > I aven't fed them in a couple days suspecting that
                                                                                              > as well but still
                                                                                              > frustrated by the inability to lower below 80ppm.
                                                                                              > maybe like all
                                                                                              > else with the wet ones it'll take a bit more time
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > chuck
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                              > "Patrick"
                                                                                              > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                              > > I don't think hardness is connected to
                                                                                              > nitrates. Nitrates
                                                                                              > aren't
                                                                                              > > usually deadly to freshwater fish until well over
                                                                                              > 100ppm. Still,
                                                                                              > 80 isn't
                                                                                              > > good. You should be changing 10 gallons every
                                                                                              > week on a 29 gallon
                                                                                              > tank.
                                                                                              > > The problem here is clear to me, maybe I'm wrong,
                                                                                              > but it is
                                                                                              > probably the
                                                                                              > > overfeeding. Do some 50% water changes for a few
                                                                                              > days and they
                                                                                              > should go
                                                                                              > > down quickly. Good luck!
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Patrick N.
                                                                                              > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                              > > About my tanks:
                                                                                              > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                              > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                              > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                              > juli
                                                                                              > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                              > gourami. I do not
                                                                                              > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                              > keepers!
                                                                                              > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                              > banana plants, java
                                                                                              > ferns,
                                                                                              > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                              > 30-60 power
                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                              > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                              > pH 6.4.
                                                                                              > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                              > June.
                                                                                              > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                              > gravel in spots,
                                                                                              > sponge
                                                                                              > > filter.
                                                                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                              > > Can't get my nitrates under control. After 5 days
                                                                                              > of pwc of 5-7 gl
                                                                                              > > each still high. here are the specifics.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 29 gal community fresh H2O
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 2 penguin 125 bio wheels on tank ( I know it a bit
                                                                                              > overkill but the
                                                                                              > > second will go to my boys tank someday)
                                                                                              > > chem reads like this
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > NO3 80ppm
                                                                                              > > NO2 0ppm
                                                                                              > > ammonia 0ppm
                                                                                              > > GH 130ppm
                                                                                              > > KH 80ppm
                                                                                              > > pH 6.8
                                                                                              > > tank temp at 78 F
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > I think the kh is the problem but can't get a
                                                                                              > handle on how to
                                                                                              > > balance it.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Our water is very hard and alkaline. To treat the
                                                                                              > water for pwc's
                                                                                              > I
                                                                                              > > use Seachem neutral regulator to get to a pH of
                                                                                              > 7.0 or there
                                                                                              > about.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > The tank is well established and not overstocked
                                                                                              > > 4 neons (<1")
                                                                                              > > 1 rainbow (2")
                                                                                              > > 2 mollies (both under 1.5")
                                                                                              > > 3 guppies (1")
                                                                                              > > 1 golden algae eater (1.5")
                                                                                              > > 3 rasboras (all new <1")
                                                                                              > > 1 gourami dwarf (1.5")
                                                                                              > > 2 lamp eye tetras (1.5")
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Any ideas out there. I let my neighbor watch the
                                                                                              > fish whil on
                                                                                              > > vacation and there were horribly overfed. I've
                                                                                              > vacuumed up so much
                                                                                              > > food I could have fed another tank for days.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Any ideas I need some help. Gotta go change the
                                                                                              > water again.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >





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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4253 From: fishndoglvr Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                              This is why I'm glad I'm here thanks for all the help. I'll tackle a
                                                                                              50% pwc and test tomorrow. Tap water is negligble so must be
                                                                                              bouncing around due to the overfeeding. I'll let you all know how it
                                                                                              goes, lost a neon today and don't know why so either it was time or
                                                                                              the tank is outta whack. Hopefully it was tiem. thanks again

                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                              <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                              > as someone stated before, test your tap water for
                                                                                              > nitrates. i know the in Sf bay area in CA the tap
                                                                                              > water is 35-40 ppm. if you are changing out high
                                                                                              > nitrate water with water still containing lower
                                                                                              > levels, it will never be gone. prime and amquel+ both
                                                                                              > take out nitrates, but the Amquel+ has more side
                                                                                              > effects.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > --- fishndoglvr <fivesmiths@s...> wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > thanks patrick
                                                                                              > > I aven't fed them in a couple days suspecting that
                                                                                              > > as well but still
                                                                                              > > frustrated by the inability to lower below 80ppm.
                                                                                              > > maybe like all
                                                                                              > > else with the wet ones it'll take a bit more time
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > chuck
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                              > > "Patrick"
                                                                                              > > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                              > > > I don't think hardness is connected to
                                                                                              > > nitrates. Nitrates
                                                                                              > > aren't
                                                                                              > > > usually deadly to freshwater fish until well over
                                                                                              > > 100ppm. Still,
                                                                                              > > 80 isn't
                                                                                              > > > good. You should be changing 10 gallons every
                                                                                              > > week on a 29 gallon
                                                                                              > > tank.
                                                                                              > > > The problem here is clear to me, maybe I'm wrong,
                                                                                              > > but it is
                                                                                              > > probably the
                                                                                              > > > overfeeding. Do some 50% water changes for a few
                                                                                              > > days and they
                                                                                              > > should go
                                                                                              > > > down quickly. Good luck!
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                              > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                              > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                              > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                              > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                              > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                              > > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                              > > juli
                                                                                              > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                              > > gourami. I do not
                                                                                              > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                              > > keepers!
                                                                                              > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                              > > banana plants, java
                                                                                              > > ferns,
                                                                                              > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                              > > 30-60 power
                                                                                              > > filter.
                                                                                              > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                              > > pH 6.4.
                                                                                              > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                              > > June.
                                                                                              > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                              > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                              > > sponge
                                                                                              > > > filter.
                                                                                              > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                              > > > Can't get my nitrates under control. After 5 days
                                                                                              > > of pwc of 5-7 gl
                                                                                              > > > each still high. here are the specifics.
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > 29 gal community fresh H2O
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > 2 penguin 125 bio wheels on tank ( I know it a bit
                                                                                              > > overkill but the
                                                                                              > > > second will go to my boys tank someday)
                                                                                              > > > chem reads like this
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > NO3 80ppm
                                                                                              > > > NO2 0ppm
                                                                                              > > > ammonia 0ppm
                                                                                              > > > GH 130ppm
                                                                                              > > > KH 80ppm
                                                                                              > > > pH 6.8
                                                                                              > > > tank temp at 78 F
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > I think the kh is the problem but can't get a
                                                                                              > > handle on how to
                                                                                              > > > balance it.
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > Our water is very hard and alkaline. To treat the
                                                                                              > > water for pwc's
                                                                                              > > I
                                                                                              > > > use Seachem neutral regulator to get to a pH of
                                                                                              > > 7.0 or there
                                                                                              > > about.
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > The tank is well established and not overstocked
                                                                                              > > > 4 neons (<1")
                                                                                              > > > 1 rainbow (2")
                                                                                              > > > 2 mollies (both under 1.5")
                                                                                              > > > 3 guppies (1")
                                                                                              > > > 1 golden algae eater (1.5")
                                                                                              > > > 3 rasboras (all new <1")
                                                                                              > > > 1 gourami dwarf (1.5")
                                                                                              > > > 2 lamp eye tetras (1.5")
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > Any ideas out there. I let my neighbor watch the
                                                                                              > > fish whil on
                                                                                              > > > vacation and there were horribly overfed. I've
                                                                                              > > vacuumed up so much
                                                                                              > > > food I could have fed another tank for days.
                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                              > > > Any ideas I need some help. Gotta go change the
                                                                                              > > water again.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4254 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                              Dear Terri,
                                                                                               
                                                                                              10 to 12 boxes of snails a week?. What are you into?
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry 

                                                                                              bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:
                                                                                              I ship 10 to 12 boxes of live snails a week and these are the cold packs I use.
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                              cheap, non-toxic, reusable and still cool after 2-3 days in a priority mail box.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                              From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 10:40 AM
                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Shannon/Paul

                                                                                              Dear Paul,
                                                                                               
                                                                                               I didn't know there were such a thing as cold packs. Can you post a source? Thanks
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry

                                                                                              paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                              one quick note, don't put heat in the box with the
                                                                                              fish.  when fish are shipped instead of delivered by a
                                                                                              distributor to a store, they are actually sent with
                                                                                              cold packs to keep the fish less active and less
                                                                                              stressed.
                                                                                              paul
                                                                                              --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                              > Just to add on to Harry's comment.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > There are heat packs also available that keep
                                                                                              > sending out heat for 60+ hours
                                                                                              > and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at the
                                                                                              > top over a newspaper.
                                                                                              > This may be needed if the fish are going thru a cold
                                                                                              > region or in winters.
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >   _____ 
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              > Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                              > shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not
                                                                                              > necessary. Whenever I buy
                                                                                              > fish on the internet, in the states most folks use
                                                                                              > the USPS 3 day priority.
                                                                                              > I haven't been               disappointed yet. So if
                                                                                              > you don't feed your
                                                                                              > fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k..
                                                                                              > Use separate bags for each
                                                                                              > fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't
                                                                                              > kill everything else in
                                                                                              > the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks do
                                                                                              > a total blackout for at
                                                                                              > least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can
                                                                                              > figure out how to balance
                                                                                              > their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your
                                                                                              > major concern should be
                                                                                              > the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper to
                                                                                              > insulate.
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Harry
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >     Fish can go a week with no food with no problem,
                                                                                              > and 2 weeks if needed.
                                                                                              > I think the idea is that if they are shipped to you,
                                                                                              > and you are flying from
                                                                                              > where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2
                                                                                              > day at the longest.  As
                                                                                              > long as your flight leaves and arrives on time, you
                                                                                              > should be in KY before
                                                                                              > the fish come to your door.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >     And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the
                                                                                              > stuff you get north of
                                                                                              > the state line. :)
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > About my tanks: 
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                              > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                              > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                              > gourami.  I do not
                                                                                              > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                              > keepers!
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20, pH
                                                                                              > 6.4.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                              > June.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                              > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed them
                                                                                              > and then it takes like 5
                                                                                              > days to move isnt that along time.. wont they starve
                                                                                              > how long is to long
                                                                                              > withno food for them esp when there is no live
                                                                                              > plants for them to nibble
                                                                                              > on.. shannon
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >

                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4255 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Paul/again
                                                                                              Thank you very much.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry

                                                                                              paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                              no i can't post a source, i am speaking form a
                                                                                              recieving stand point.  when i get fish in the store
                                                                                              and they are delivered by courier instead of our
                                                                                              regular drivers, they have small crio pacs of ice in
                                                                                              the boxes.  this is true with all of our coral
                                                                                              shipments as well.  when the temp is lower, their
                                                                                              metabolism is slowed and they become less stressed
                                                                                              out.  the bags are wrapped with newspaper so that they
                                                                                              do not get direct chill transfer through the bags, but
                                                                                              the ambient temp in the box is maintained.

                                                                                              --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                              > Dear Paul,

                                                                                              >  I didn't know there were such a thing as cold
                                                                                              > packs. Can you post a source? Thanks

                                                                                              > Harry
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:one quick
                                                                                              > note, don't put heat in the box with the
                                                                                              > fish.  when fish are shipped instead of delivered by
                                                                                              > a
                                                                                              > distributor to a store, they are actually sent with
                                                                                              > cold packs to keep the fish less active and less
                                                                                              > stressed.
                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                              > --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > > Just to add on to Harry's comment.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > There are heat packs also available that keep
                                                                                              > > sending out heat for 60+ hours
                                                                                              > > and can be packed in the Styrofoam box placed at
                                                                                              > the
                                                                                              > > top over a newspaper.
                                                                                              > > This may be needed if the fish are going thru a
                                                                                              > cold
                                                                                              > > region or in winters.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Nim
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >   _____ 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > From: harry perry
                                                                                              > [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              > > Sent: 13 August 2004 08:34
                                                                                              > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                              > > shipping to yourself /Shannon
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Fish can go two weeks without food. But it's not
                                                                                              > > necessary. Whenever I buy
                                                                                              > > fish on the internet, in the states most folks use
                                                                                              > > the USPS 3 day priority.
                                                                                              > > I haven't been               disappointed yet. So
                                                                                              > if
                                                                                              > > you don't feed your
                                                                                              > > fish for 3 days and then ship you should be o.k..
                                                                                              > > Use separate bags for each
                                                                                              > > fish this is important. If one fish dies it won't
                                                                                              > > kill everything else in
                                                                                              > > the bag. As far as light is concerned many folks
                                                                                              > do
                                                                                              > > a total blackout for at
                                                                                              > > least 3 days to get ahead of algae until they can
                                                                                              > > figure out how to balance
                                                                                              > > their tanks. It doesn't hurt the fish at all. Your
                                                                                              > > major concern should be
                                                                                              > > the heat. Be sure to use styrofoam and newspaper
                                                                                              > to
                                                                                              > > insulate.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Harry
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >     Fish can go a week with no food with no
                                                                                              > problem,
                                                                                              > > and 2 weeks if needed.
                                                                                              > > I think the idea is that if they are shipped to
                                                                                              > you,
                                                                                              > > and you are flying from
                                                                                              > > where you are to KY, send the fish overnight or 2
                                                                                              > > day at the longest.  As
                                                                                              > > long as your flight leaves and arrives on time,
                                                                                              > you
                                                                                              > > should be in KY before
                                                                                              > > the fish come to your door.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >     And I suspect Tennessee BBQ is better that the
                                                                                              > > stuff you get north of
                                                                                              > > the state line. :)
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > Patrick N.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                              > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > About my tanks: 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                              > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                              > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                              > 2
                                                                                              > > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                              > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                              > > gourami.  I do not
                                                                                              > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                              > > keepers!
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                              > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                              > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                              > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                              > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20,
                                                                                              > pH
                                                                                              > > 6.4.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                              > > June.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain
                                                                                              > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                              > > filter.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > thanks harry... i had no idea.. if i dont feed
                                                                                              > them
                                                                                              > > and then it takes like 5
                                                                                              > > days to move isnt that along time.. wont they
                                                                                              > starve
                                                                                              > > how long is to long
                                                                                              > > withno food for them esp when there is no live
                                                                                              > > plants for them to nibble
                                                                                              > > on.. shannon
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >         
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > >   _____ 
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                                                                                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                              > > Yahoo!
                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4256 From: Jamison Terauchi Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                              The thing about bio filters (well actually with pretty much all filters) is that they can get rid of ammonia and nitrites, but not nitrates. The only way to get rid of nitrates is through water changes and plants. I dont know if you have any plants in your tank because you only mentioned fish, but I would advise you to get some right away.
                                                                                              Hope this helps,
                                                                                              Jay

                                                                                              fishndoglvr <fivesmiths@...> wrote:
                                                                                              Can't get my nitrates under control...
                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4257 From: harry perry Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: NiTrates
                                                                                              Don't need to be "under control" they are a result and indication of the control you have over the toxic elements niTrites and ammonia.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry

                                                                                              Jamison Terauchi <japanesegorilla05@...> wrote:
                                                                                              The thing about bio filters (well actually with pretty much all filters) is that they can get rid of ammonia and nitrites, but not nitrates. The only way to get rid of nitrates is through water changes and plants. I dont know if you have any plants in your tank because you only mentioned fish, but I would advise you to get some right away.
                                                                                              Hope this helps,
                                                                                              Jay

                                                                                              fishndoglvr <fivesmiths@...> wrote:
                                                                                              Can't get my nitrates under control...

                                                                                                      




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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4258 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: addding light Fish Are moveing ./shippi...
                                                                                              th;anks nim.. good to know i think i need to invest in a timer.. and im thinking a self feeder.. i will be gone for a month here in a few weeks... i feel bad putting so much on my mom i also have 2 cats with very specific needs one thatis sick.. shannon

                                                                                              that will work. These timers plug in on the mains socket. You just have to keep the push button on the lights to on always and the power will be regulated by the timers. When they are supposed to come on, the light will get power, when they are not, they won’t. I have all my lights on timers so don’t have to bother about anything when I go out for a weekend… long holidays are scheduled in December and that is when it will be worrying me a bit.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4259 From: bryants4god Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                              I sell snails for freshwater aquariums.  There are those of us that enjoy them more than fish believe it or not! I love the colors of saltwater tanks but don't want one so with snails I can get purple, pink, blue etc in my tank.  Giant snails are very friendly and playful I have several of those that play in the bubble wands most of the day, it's fun to watch.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                              From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                              Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 7:35 PM
                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                              Dear Terri,
                                                                                               
                                                                                              10 to 12 boxes of snails a week?. What are you into?
                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4260 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/13/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Re: A link with permission.
                                                                                              Thanks Harry,
                                                                                              I just joined, to find out more about these beautiful fish!
                                                                                              Dorothy
                                                                                              harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                              This group is dedicated to the preservation, research, and breeding of this fascinating Genus of tropical fish. We hope to spread captive-bred specimens and information on the husbandry of this great group of fish.  Please go to This group is dedicated to the preservation, research, and breeding of this fascinating Genus of tropical fish. We hope to spread captive-bred specimens and information on the husbandry of this great group of fish.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Harry


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                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4261 From: harry perry Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                              Subject: Come join us.
                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                But don't leave this great group. New fish are being discovered all the time. 15 in the last 3 years.
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Harry


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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4262 From: boo_peeka Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Hello
                                                                                                I just joined this group after looking for a group on aquarums. My
                                                                                                name is Peeka. I have had aquarums for as long as I can remember so
                                                                                                i'm not all new to their care but I bought a 55 gallon (appears
                                                                                                larger) octagon shaped aquarum a few weeks ago that had a leak from
                                                                                                a friend for 40$ It has a stand and double light and hood. The
                                                                                                previous owner had attempted to repair but had only made a gumpy
                                                                                                silicone mess! I redid the whole aquarum (took approx 2 days working
                                                                                                on and off) to remove old silicone. I resealed and let stand for one
                                                                                                week and then filled with water and let set for a week to assure no
                                                                                                leaks. SUCESS Now I have a beautiful Large aquarum. My aquarum is
                                                                                                31 inches deep. It has 6 panels that are each 12inches wide. It has
                                                                                                a nice 31 inch tall wooden cabinet style stand. I had a 30 gallon
                                                                                                aquarum that I took down and am now useing the new tank. I used my
                                                                                                old decor and moved my other fish to this new tank. Still Sucess
                                                                                                didnt lose any fish in the transfer and they have been in this
                                                                                                aquarum for a week now.
                                                                                                I do have a couple problems tho. My filtering system from the 30
                                                                                                gal. was too wide to use on this aquarum. I ordered a sand filter
                                                                                                http://www.aquaticsbykr.com/sand.htm
                                                                                                But it wont hang on the back of my aquarum as the lip isnt wide
                                                                                                enough. All I got out of my attempt was a huge mess. I tried longer
                                                                                                hose and sitting it on a table next to the tank but it blew off a
                                                                                                hose and was syphoning the water out onto my floor! Any one have any
                                                                                                ideas of a way to use this filter or another filter I should buy
                                                                                                that will filter this size aquarum in a 50$ price range?
                                                                                                My 2nd problem is finding a background for it. any suggestions? I
                                                                                                thought about buying a 55 long and useing the black side
                                                                                                horazonally. Also thought of painting the back but dont want to use
                                                                                                spray paint as i already have it set up. Any suggestions for paint
                                                                                                that will work for this? Any help will be greatly appreciated!
                                                                                                Thanks in advance ..... Peeka
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4263 From: boo_peeka Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: added photo of repaired aquarum
                                                                                                I just posted a pic of my aquarum after the repair to photos. The
                                                                                                lil boy is my grandson! Peeka
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4264 From: Cathey Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Eheim vs. Rena - Canister Filters?
                                                                                                If I were going to get a new canister filter for my frog tank and
                                                                                                it's a 50 gallon, how much "overfiltering" is a good idea?
                                                                                                I'm probably looking at one that will do up to 75-80
                                                                                                gallons.

                                                                                                I'm thinking about getting an Eheim ECCO since Eheim's are supposed
                                                                                                to be quite nice... Anyone have any experience with them? I wonder
                                                                                                how they compare to a Rena Filstar as far as performance and ease of
                                                                                                maintenance...?

                                                                                                Thanks for any thoughts!

                                                                                                ~Cathey
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4265 From: Cathey Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
                                                                                                How important is the number of gallons per hour that it cycles?

                                                                                                The Rena I'm looking at cycles 300gph, while the Eheim for the same
                                                                                                tank size does 185gph.

                                                                                                Does that mean the Rena would have a stronger water current, as
                                                                                                well? I don't want my frogs to have a stronger current than they do
                                                                                                now... the Rena that's currently on there has a tube with holes that
                                                                                                sprays the filtered water outward along the surface, about half the
                                                                                                length of the tank... I like it because it doesn't seem to bother
                                                                                                the African Clawed Frogs, who are very sensitive to water movement.

                                                                                                Thanks for any information :)

                                                                                                ~Cathey
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4266 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Eheim vs. Rena - Canister Filters?
                                                                                                Cathey,

                                                                                                Firstly, there is no such thing as Over filtration. Just be sure the pump is
                                                                                                not powerful enough to create a whirlpool in the tank.. other then this,
                                                                                                anything will be good enough.

                                                                                                WRT Eheim or Rena, Eheim are a trusted and one of the most reputed brands
                                                                                                for canister filter in the market and IME/O are the best. However
                                                                                                expensive. If cost was not a factor, I would always go for eheim.. but
                                                                                                others are also good canisters.

                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                >From: Cathey [mailto:catheylove@...]
                                                                                                >Sent: 14 August 2004 17:25
                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Eheim vs. Rena - Canister
                                                                                                >Filters?
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >If I were going to get a new canister filter for my frog tank and
                                                                                                >it's a 50 gallon, how much "overfiltering" is a good idea?
                                                                                                >I'm probably looking at one that will do up to 75-80
                                                                                                >gallons.
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >I'm thinking about getting an Eheim ECCO since Eheim's are supposed
                                                                                                >to be quite nice... Anyone have any experience with them? I wonder
                                                                                                >how they compare to a Rena Filstar as far as performance and ease of
                                                                                                >maintenance...?
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >Thanks for any thoughts!
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >~Cathey
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4267 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
                                                                                                Cathey, First off, as Nim stated, there is no such thing as "overfiltration". You can never have too much filtration, even if your filter is twice the size of your tank/aquarium. It just means that you will have very clean water (up to a point). While a hugh filter will certainly keep your water clean, there does reach a point where beyond a certain capacity there is no further benefit, although it will never be harmful. As for filters, I would go with an Eheim, an old and trusted reliable name. Will the Rena have a stronger water current?: Of course -- how else is this filter capable of filtering 300gph vs. 185 gph for the Eheim? The flow is that much (38%) faster. As you see, the only drawback from "overfiltration" if any, might be the flow rate (depending upon your needs) but certainly the amount of filtration (or actual size/surface-area/capacity) can never be overdone/detrimental to water quality as the larger the filter is in physical size (not necessarily flow) the better it can perform what it was meant to do. Ray
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4268 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Hello

                                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                                   I had a blue-colored Mylar* film, reflective, (about the color of blue-water)  the other side being a silver reflective surface. I think it was made by Penn-Plax. Look up 'clear and/or colored-film',  or variants of it, on GOOGLE, and you may find colors that are pleasing.

                                                                                                                    Joe P

                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                > I just joined this group after looking for a group on aquarums. My
                                                                                                > name is Peeka. I have had aquarums for as long as I can remember so
                                                                                                > i'm not all new to their care but I bought a 55 gallon (appears
                                                                                                > larger) octagon shaped aquarum a few weeks ago that had a leak from
                                                                                                > a friend for 40$ It has a stand and double light and hood. The
                                                                                                > previous owner had attempted to repair but had only made a gumpy
                                                                                                > silicone mess! I redid the whole aquarum (took approx 2 days working
                                                                                                > on and off) to remove old silicone. I resealed and let stand for one
                                                                                                > week and then filled with water and let set for a week to assure no
                                                                                                > leaks. SUCESS Now I have a beautiful Large aquarum. My aquarum is
                                                                                                > 31 inches deep. It has 6 panels that are each 12inches wide. It has
                                                                                                > a nice 31 inch tall wooden cabinet style stand. I had a 30 gallon
                                                                                                > aquarum that I took down and am now useing the new tank. I used my
                                                                                                > old decor and moved my other fish to this new tank. Still Sucess
                                                                                                > didnt lose any fish in the transfer and they have been in this
                                                                                                > aquarum for a week now.
                                                                                                > I do have a couple problems tho. My filtering system from the 30
                                                                                                > gal. was too wide to use on this aquarum. I ordered a sand filter
                                                                                                > http://www.aquaticsbykr.com/sand.htm
                                                                                                > But it wont hang on the back of my aquarum as the lip isnt wide
                                                                                                > enough. All I got out of my attempt was a huge mess. I tried longer
                                                                                                > hose and sitting it on a table next to the tank but it blew off a
                                                                                                > hose and was syphoning the water out onto my floor! Any one have any
                                                                                                > ideas of a way to use this filter or another filter I should buy
                                                                                                > that will filter this size aquarum in a 50$ price range?
                                                                                                > My 2nd problem is finding a background for it. any suggestions? I
                                                                                                > thought about buying a 55 long and useing the black side
                                                                                                > horazonally. Also thought of painting the back but dont want to use
                                                                                                > spray paint as i already have it set up. Any suggestions for paint
                                                                                                > that will work for this? Any help will be greatly appreciated!
                                                                                                > Thanks in advance ..... Peeka
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4269 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                                                                For me it is a black background. If you paint it on, then brush it on rather
                                                                                                than spray. First, you don't have an overspray problem when you use a brush,
                                                                                                and it is much easier to get an even coating where you want it with a brush
                                                                                                rather than a spray can. I've never had a problem with bristle lines, but,
                                                                                                maybe I'm just good or lucky--some say I'm good and lucky.

                                                                                                Get a paint that will adhere to glass, presuming that you have a glass tank.
                                                                                                If your tank is made of another material, then get a paint that will adhere
                                                                                                to that material. If it is a plywood/fiberglass back, use a good grade
                                                                                                marine paint. It should last you a good long time as long as you take care
                                                                                                when moving equipment hanging off the back.

                                                                                                I've never had much luck with the backings you stick on the back of the
                                                                                                tank. They all seem to come loose with time and you end up having to contort
                                                                                                your body in strange ways to get them stuck again, though if I had called
                                                                                                for help, my contortions may have not been so strange. I will only use a
                                                                                                backing I have to stick on in special short term situations, such as show
                                                                                                tanks where one show may specify one color and another show may specify
                                                                                                another color for backing.

                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                From: Daniel Brown [mailto:mailinglists@...]
                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:16 AM
                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank Backgrounds


                                                                                                What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of
                                                                                                getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                                                                images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO).
                                                                                                I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of
                                                                                                people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been
                                                                                                thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine
                                                                                                either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background
                                                                                                colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?

                                                                                                I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a
                                                                                                tank?

                                                                                                Cheers,

                                                                                                Daniel








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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4270 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....

                                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                                   How does carbon-filtration effect changes related to water-hardness/ softness, plant-leaf nutrition and vitamin-mineral/trace-elements in the tank?

                                                                                                                 JoeP

                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                Cathey, First off, as Nim stated, there is no such thing as "overfiltration". You can never have too much filtration, even if your filter is twice the size of your tank/aquarium. It just means that you will have very clean water (up to a point). While a hugh filter will certainly keep your water clean, there does reach a point where beyond a certain capacity there is no further benefit, although it will never be harmful. As for filters, I would go with an Eheim, an old and trusted reliable name. Will the Rena have a stronger water current?: Of course -- how else is this filter capable of filtering 300gph vs. 185 gph for the Eheim? The flow is that much (38%) faster. As you see, the only drawback from "overfiltration" if any, might be the flow rate (depending upon your needs) but certainly the amount of filtration (or actual size/surface-area/capacity) can never be overdone/detrimental to water quality as the larger the filter is in physical size (not necessarily flow) the better it can perform what it was meant to do. Ray





                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4271 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....

                                                                                                I think Carbon does not effect hardness/softness in any way. Carbon can however absorb some nutrients, vitamins and trace elements needed.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                 


                                                                                                From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                Sent: 14 August 2004 21:50
                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                                   How does carbon-filtration effect changes related to water-hardness/ softness, plant-leaf nutrition and vitamin-mineral/trace-elements in the tank?

                                                                                                                 JoeP

                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                Cathey, First off, as Nim stated, there is no such thing as "overfiltration". You can never have too much filtration, even if your filter is twice the size of your tank/aquarium. It just means that you will have very clean water (up to a point). While a hugh filter will certainly keep your water clean, there does reach a point where beyond a certain capacity there is no further benefit, although it will never be harmful. As for filters, I would go with an Eheim, an old and trusted reliable name. Will the Rena have a stronger water current?: Of course -- how else is this filter capable of filtering 300gph vs. 185 gph for the Eheim? The flow is that much (38%) faster. As you see, the only drawback from "overfiltration" if any, might be the flow rate (depending upon your needs) but certainly the amount of filtration (or actual size/surface-area/capacity) can never be overdone/detrimental to water quality as the larger the filter is in physical size (not necessarily flow) the better it can perform what it was meant to do. Ray






                                                                                                        




                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4272 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds

                                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                                   Personally, I think painting a tank that's in place is gruesome, for two reasons. The stuff smells horrible, and if it's deceptively tolerable, there may be safety-warnings even if the stuff is latex or acryllic, and I react to paints of any kind, possibly because I'm too/more sensitive to them-----and if I feel and sense unpleasant differences in my sense of taste, and other emotional channels, I think the fish could experience, at best, unpleasantness. And it's more difficult than attaching a hard backround.

                                                                                                    I felt a sense of disparagement at tackling the attachment of backround, which prooved out at I single-handedly experienced the 48 inch length drop out of reach, or otherwise behave enexpectedly around and between the array of hang-ons and cables, But luckily, I had a sense to mitigate the torture by handling as logically as possible, and with the attaching-points secured, the backround stayed put for years, 'till I gave my fish and equipment away recently. Temporarily both holding it in place with one hand, using equipment that's already hanging on the tank-back as a clamp, if possible. Using pre-cut pieces of adhesive to hold the backing in place while you thread the remainder accross the back.  The tape used was Scotch-Matte-finish Magic tape, and I was fortunate enough to be able to attach the tape to three-sides with difficulty. A short strip in the right locations was enough. As for the bottom, if the top is attached evenly, the bottom can be held taut and secured at both ends. I eventually chose blue, because fish were allagedly discovered to like, or benefit from the color. (Or was it green? Any way, after trying a photograph-quality plant scene, I tried clear-green, then reflective, gentle-blue.

                                                                                                                           Joe P

                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                > For me it is a black background. If you paint it on, then brush it on rather
                                                                                                > than spray. First, you don't have an overspray problem when you use a brush,
                                                                                                > and it is much easier to get an even coating where you want it with a brush
                                                                                                > rather than a spray can. I've never had a problem with bristle lines, but,
                                                                                                > maybe I'm just good or lucky--some say I'm good and lucky.
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > Get a paint that will adhere to glass, presuming that you have a glass tank.
                                                                                                > If your tank is made of another material, then get a paint that will adhere
                                                                                                > to that material. If it is a plywood/fiberglass back, use a good grade
                                                                                                > marine paint. It should last you a good long time as long as you take care
                                                                                                > when moving equipment hanging off the back.
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > I've never had much luck with the backings you stick on the back of the
                                                                                                > tank. They all seem to come loose with time and you end up having to contort
                                                                                                > your body in strange ways to get them stuck again, though if I had called
                                                                                                > for help, my contortions may have not been so strange. I will only use a
                                                                                                > backing I have to stick on in special short term situations, such as show
                                                                                                > tanks where one show may specify one color and another show may specify
                                                                                                > another color for backing.
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                > From: Daniel Brown [mailto:mailinglists@...]
                                                                                                > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:16 AM
                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank Backgrounds
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of
                                                                                                > getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                                                                > images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO).
                                                                                                > I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of
                                                                                                > people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been
                                                                                                > thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine
                                                                                                > either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background
                                                                                                > colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a
                                                                                                > tank?
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > Cheers,
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                > Daniel
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4273 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Angelfish
                                                                                                Hello, just added 2 angel fish to my 20 gal tank and the black marble one is doing fine from what I can tell, it's only been 4.5 hours.  I also added a Koi Angel fish and he seemed ok then after a trip to the store and back I saw him hiding at the bottom of the tank by a plant.  I know it;s only been 4 and a half hours, but should I start to worry yet?
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                The other tank mates are 2 Zebra Dianos and 2 Gold Barbs.  My Ammonia and Nitrite are all at zero and my Ph is about 7.4.  The temp is and has been at 76 from the start of this tank other than the 2 days we had very had days and my swamp cooler decided to stop working and then it hit about 80, but that was before the angel fish.
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Before I added the angels I did a 25% water change and added fresh water waiter 2 days tested water again and everything was the same.  How long before I should worry about my Koi Angelfish?  Thanks for taking the time to red this.
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4274 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: New arrival
                                                                                                Hey everyone, I have a new fish while enjoying watching my fish I
                                                                                                found a baby endler, just one, so I'm not sure if the others got
                                                                                                sucked up in the filter or if they only had one, since no one looked
                                                                                                fat enough to have any babies.
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4275 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Nano mbuna

                                                                                                Hi Guys,

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                I am thinking on the terms of converting one of my small planted tank into a Mbuna tank. Now this is small, but not too small.. 100 Liters 33”x12”x17”.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Following is the plan:

                                                                                                Coral sand as gravel with loads of rockwork and a few plants: Amazon swords, Hygrophyllas, vallis etc.

                                                                                                Filter will be a 200lph HOT and an Eheim 2213 canister (could also incorporate it as a RUGF)

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Now about the fish (this is the tricky part)

                                                                                                I plan on 1 male of each species and 2-3 females of each. 5 species in all and a total of 20-25 fish

                                                                                                Melanochromis Johannii

                                                                                                Melanochromis auratus

                                                                                                Pseudotropheus elongatus
                                                                                                Pseudotropheus Estherae Bright Red
                                                                                                Pseudotropheus Demasoni

                                                                                                Labidochromis hongi “red top”

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                How does this sound?

                                                                                                Also, excluding the melanochromis species, I have been looking for some solid information on distinguishing the sexes of the fish.. any ideas on this?

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Thanks,

                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4276 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                                                                Actually, a razor blade will do wonders when you wish to change the
                                                                                                background, though in a operating tank, it can be difficult to accomplish
                                                                                                the task successfully.

                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:44 PM
                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Tank Backgrounds


                                                                                                Don't paint the tank. It may seem good now, but you will regret it one
                                                                                                day when you would like a new background. :)

                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                About my tanks:
                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the process of
                                                                                                getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                                                                images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky(IMHO).
                                                                                                I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed allot of
                                                                                                people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank. I've been
                                                                                                thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush strokes) mine
                                                                                                either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good background
                                                                                                colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?

                                                                                                I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they look in a
                                                                                                tank?

                                                                                                Cheers,

                                                                                                Daniel








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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4277 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fish Are moveing too
                                                                                                Actually, there were cast iron and aluminum frames as well, and probably
                                                                                                some other types of metal frames, but those three--cast iron, aluminum, and
                                                                                                stainless steel--are the ones I remember.


                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                From: DB1RDMAN@... [mailto:DB1RDMAN@...]
                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:16 AM
                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] RE: Fish Are moveing too


                                                                                                From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                Subject: RE: Fish Are moveing too

                                                                                                i don't believe that there are any metal framed tanks
                                                                                                in the US, have never heard of tehm anyway, but it
                                                                                                woudl be a good idea.
                                                                                                ===========================================================
                                                                                                Paul, you're giving away your age. At one time in the good old U. S. of A.,
                                                                                                all you could get were metal framed tanks. The frame was stainless steel.
                                                                                                In fact, I just picked one up at an auction last weekend. One end glass was
                                                                                                broken, but with the frame they're simple to repair with a little silicone
                                                                                                seal - which is not the case with an all glass tank.





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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4278 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angelfish
                                                                                                Robb, Your water parameters look fine and should certainly be alright for the fish provided they were aclimated slowly and not just dumped in after the temperature equalized; hope you floated the bag for about 20 minutes. Before releasing the fish (Angels) into the tank, did you first mix some of the tank water with the bag water a number of times to help adjust the bag water's pH more closely to that of the tank water? If not, you should have, to prevent pH shock; the Koi Angel could have come from water with a pH of 6.0 for all you know. How large are the Angelfish? Is there much of a size difference between the two Angelfish? Angelfish can get agressive to each other as they get larger and the Marble guy may be bullying the Koi. Do you know the pH of the water the Angels came from? Always a good idea to test it from the bag when first opening it. Was they Koi Angel behaving normally in the lfs (local fish store)? Need more info to figure what may be happening. The other fish -- Zebra Danios and Gold Barbs -- are both inoffensive and shouldn't be bothering anybody. SS
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4279 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Foam? Help!
                                                                                                Erin,

                                                                                                Generally a foam collecting on the surface of the water indicates a high
                                                                                                organic load in the tank. If the tank is currently cycling, this may be the
                                                                                                cause of it, and it should go away when the cycle has completed. The removal
                                                                                                of the foam will not remove the underlying cause of the foam. There are many
                                                                                                scenarios that can lead to a high organic content.

                                                                                                Overfeeding is a popular one. With only the tiger barb in the tank, you need
                                                                                                to feed a very minimal amount. When you feed, determine whether the barb is
                                                                                                eating everything that goes into the tank, or very nearly everything. If it
                                                                                                is not, cut back on the amount of food.

                                                                                                If you have also planted the tank, the plants, as they establish themselves,
                                                                                                may be a cause. leaves that are dying and have dies and not been removed can
                                                                                                lead to a high organic load. Remove and discard all dying and dead leaves
                                                                                                and stems.

                                                                                                If the substrate was not thoroughly cleaned, this could be a cause. If this
                                                                                                is the case, you'll need to stir up the substrate when doing water changes,
                                                                                                but don't disturb more than 25-33% of the substrate per water change. The
                                                                                                lesser amount if you are using an undergravel filter. If you have not
                                                                                                planted, you may wish to remove the substrate and give it a thorough
                                                                                                cleaning. I'd not do this until the cycle has completed to ensure that it is
                                                                                                not the cycle that is causing the problem.

                                                                                                Finally, it could be from your own water supply. If you are on a municipal
                                                                                                system, the provider is required to give you test results on a yearly basis,
                                                                                                but you need not wait until then. You should be able to ask for a report at
                                                                                                any time, but they are not required to give it to you for free, though I
                                                                                                have not yet had to pay for one. You will need to look for organic elements
                                                                                                and compounds when reading the report.

                                                                                                A high level of phosphates can lead to the foam you are asking about as
                                                                                                well. This may be caused by a too high dose of plant fertilizer, if it was
                                                                                                used, feeding too much food, or come in your tap water. The plants will
                                                                                                eventually help you to control this, including the one plant everyone seems
                                                                                                to be able to grow--algae.

                                                                                                For the time being, I'd let the tank settle down a bit, and not do a thing,
                                                                                                except, perhaps, remove the foam. If the foaming continues, start looking
                                                                                                for the cause.

                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                From: utacutie [mailto:utacutie@...]
                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:36 PM
                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Foam? Help!


                                                                                                Hi all,
                                                                                                I noticed that a foam like/bubble substance has been collecting on
                                                                                                top of the water and will not go away. I have 2 airstones running,
                                                                                                but not sure if this is what is causing it. It doesn't seem to
                                                                                                affect my fish (only have 1 tiger barb in the tank right now). My 29
                                                                                                tank is currently cycling (ammonia: about .5, nitrite: .25 and
                                                                                                nitrate: 5.0) Any ideas as to what this foam might be and how to get
                                                                                                rid of it? Thanks!

                                                                                                Erin






                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4280 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....
                                                                                                Carbon will remove nutrients from the water column and some trace elements
                                                                                                as well. It will have a minimal effect on water hardness, depending on how
                                                                                                you measure it. The use of carbon is generally not recommended unless you
                                                                                                have a need for it, such as to remove certain medications from the water
                                                                                                column.

                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 4:50 PM
                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Also, regarding Eheim/Rena....


                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                How does carbon-filtration effect changes related to water-hardness/
                                                                                                softness, plant-leaf nutrition and vitamin-mineral/trace-elements in the
                                                                                                tank?
                                                                                                JoeP

                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                Cathey, First off, as Nim stated, there is no such thing as
                                                                                                "overfiltration". You can never have too much filtration, even if your
                                                                                                filter is twice the size of your tank/aquarium. It just means that you will
                                                                                                have very clean water (up to a point). While a hugh filter will certainly
                                                                                                keep your water clean, there does reach a point where beyond a certain
                                                                                                capacity there is no further benefit, although it will never be harmful. As
                                                                                                for filters, I would go with an Eheim, an old and trusted reliable name.
                                                                                                Will the Rena have a stronger water current?: Of course -- how else is this
                                                                                                filter capable of filtering 300gph vs. 185 gph for the Eheim? The flow is
                                                                                                that much (38%) faster. As you see, the only drawback from "overfiltration"
                                                                                                if any, might be the flow rate (depending upon your needs) but certainly !
                                                                                                the amount of filtration (or actual size/surface-area/capacity) can never be
                                                                                                overdone/detrimental to water quality as the larger the filter is in
                                                                                                physical size (not necessarily flow) the better it can perform what it was
                                                                                                meant to do. Ray












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                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4281 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                dont want to step on her toes but she sells really cool applesnails i think they are really colorful sh ehas a link to her website on the bottom of her posts... shannon
                                                                                                10 to 12 boxes of snails a week?. What are you into?
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Harry 

                                                                                                bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:
                                                                                                I ship 10 to 12 boxes of live snails a week and these are the cold packs I use.
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                cheap, non-toxic, reusable and still cool after 2-3 days in a priority mail box.
                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4282 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                hey terri... how big do the big ones get... i have a now zebra botia and it is getting away my pest snails as i think you called them.. i supposed i cant have one of the ones you sale and with that zebra can i.. shannon
                                                                                                sell snails for freshwater aquariums.  There are those of us that enjoy them more than fish believe it or not! I love the colors of saltwater tanks but don't want one so with snails I can get purple, pink, blue etc in my tank.  Giant snails are very friendly and playful I have several of those that play in the bubble wands most of the day, it's fun to watch.
                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4283 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: Come join us.
                                                                                                so harry what is your group specifically about i love the pics that were on your email btw shannon
                                                                                                But don't leave this great group. New fish are being discovered all the time. 15 in the last 3 years.
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Harry
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4284 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: added photo of repaired aquarum
                                                                                                peeka i cant find your photos anywhere what did you title the folder shannon:
                                                                                                just posted a pic of my aquarum after the repair to photos. The
                                                                                                lil boy is my grandson!  Peeka
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4285 From: wardtodd69 Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: RO Water
                                                                                                Hello.

                                                                                                My grandpa just gave me his 55 gallon tank and stand, gravel,
                                                                                                some plants and what not. I need to buy a heater, pump, filter. I
                                                                                                was told by some people to use RO water and that would be best for
                                                                                                the Freshwater fish. Well then after reading on the net I hear I
                                                                                                ahve to add stuff to the pure RO water. Not really sure what or
                                                                                                why.

                                                                                                I ran across this yahoo group and was hoping maybe I could find my
                                                                                                answer. I have not had a tank in the last 8 years and back them I
                                                                                                just treated my water and went from there.

                                                                                                Can anyone here point me in the right way to find out how to go
                                                                                                about setting up an RO unit and do I really need it? I have no
                                                                                                Amonia or Nitrite in my tap water has a PH of around 7.6 - 7.8.
                                                                                                Have not really thought about what type of fish I want to keep yet,
                                                                                                just need to figure out this water thing.

                                                                                                I also know a place where up town that has water that runs in from
                                                                                                the streams that I could get FREE water from and I've tested that
                                                                                                water and the PH is about 7.2 - 7.4.

                                                                                                Any help on the water issure would eb great. I'm sure I'll have
                                                                                                other quetions, but lets start with the water.

                                                                                                Todd
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4288 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/14/2004
                                                                                                Subject: advice
                                                                                                i just a got a new tank 5 days ago. i have 5 barbs, 1 dwarf puffer,
                                                                                                and 2 spotted puffers in a 30 gallon tank with an eclipse filter. my
                                                                                                spotted puffs started developing black markings on the side of their
                                                                                                bodies. i got a water test and found out that my nitrites are mildly
                                                                                                high. my ph levels are around 7.4. i did a third water change and
                                                                                                added some bacteria enzymes to breakdown ammonia and nitrites. im
                                                                                                starting to run out of enzymes so can i just do water changes every
                                                                                                4-5 days without adding the bacteria? also, does anybody have any
                                                                                                other advice or recommend i do something else? is there anything
                                                                                                else i should monitor during this phase (ammonia, or nitrates)?

                                                                                                thanks
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4289 From: boo_peeka Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: added photo of repaired aquarum
                                                                                                Its not in a folder i just added to photos. Its at the very bottom
                                                                                                of the photos page. Peeka


                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                > peeka i cant find your photos anywhere what did you title the
                                                                                                folder shannon:
                                                                                                > just posted a pic of my aquarum after the repair to photos. The
                                                                                                > lil boy is my grandson! Peeka
                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4290 From: Patrick Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                Subject: Re: RO Water
                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                      The RO unit will remove most of the minerals in the water, and fish and plants need those minerals to survive.  If you extremely hard water or high pH, then it might be a good idea, but for most people I would think it would be too much of an expense to try and not really needed that much.  I also think I read that they were used more for saltwater tanks because they need better control on their water, but some people do use them on freshwater tanks.  I see you have a pH of about 7.6-7.8 and that is not that bad.  It would probably be good for the fish to just use tap water since that is what the fish store uses.  Stable pH is better than "correct" pH.
                                                                                                   
                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4291 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: RO Water
                                                                                                  Todd, First of all, you need to know what fish you are going to keep. Secondly, R/O water is never to be used straight, but is mixed in a proportion with your tap water to bring down the excess hardness to the desired degree of softness you need (example - 3 degrees hardness is relatively soft); you would need a hardness test kit for this in addition to your pH test kit. Now, unless you are going to keep fish that require soft (or acid) water, you do not need to use R/O water at all. As R/O water, even mixed with tap water, has comparatively little buffering capacity, its pH will very soon go to the acid side. Most aquarium fish will do just fine in an alkaline environment, although 7.6 to 7.8 is slightly on the high side. Then too, there are fish that require at least that level of pH (Rift Lake Cichlids for instance) and preferably higher. Your local stream water with a pH of 7.4 should be even better than your tap water (again, for most fish), provided that you are otherwise assured that it contains no pollutants (excess organics, or phosphates from fertilizer., etc.). A possible drawback there is when you need to make partial water changes; its obviously not as convenient and depending upon where you live, might be even more inconvenient in the Winter. For most applications, your tap water is probably the best bet. It can usually be adjusted slightly to bring the pH down somewhat (7.4 perhaps), or you could use (but not really needed) an R/O unit, mixing a small quantity (20%) of this water with your tap water which will lessen the buffering capacity and let the pH drop naturally. lol, Ray
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4292 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: question on cory cats
                                                                                                  Hello,
                                                                                                  well the store finally has the cory cats i've been waiting for but
                                                                                                  they are so tiny like maybe the size of a dime. (and i'm talking
                                                                                                  about there whole length) would they be ok with mine, mine are full
                                                                                                  grown. thanks. and ps. my newt that would never eat finally he's
                                                                                                  started to eat.
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4293 From: harry perry Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: RO Water/Water is water
                                                                                                  Research your fish, test your tank. Most of the fish available today come from fish farms in Florida. These farms are nothing more then holes dug in the ground. The holes fill with water because Florida is below sea level. The temp. is 78 all the time. Why would anyone want to spend hundreds of dollars on special equipment?.Labyrinth fish have been around for millions of years. They evolved the labyrinth organ so they could breath in the polluted streams they came from. Some of what we hear is just manipulation in order to buy. U.S.A the greatest country in the world. The land of the free and home of the dollar bill.
                                                                                                   
                                                                                                  Harry

                                                                                                  Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      The RO unit will remove most of the minerals in the water, and fish and plants need those minerals to survive.  If you extremely hard water or high pH, then it might be a good idea, but for most people I would think it would be too much of an expense to try and not really needed that much.  I also think I read that they were used more for saltwater tanks because they need better control on their water, but some people do use them on freshwater tanks.  I see you have a pH of about 7.6-7.8 and that is not that bad.  It would probably be good for the fish to just use tap water since that is what the fish store uses.  Stable pH is better than "correct" pH.
                                                                                                   
                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                          




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                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4294 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: advice
                                                                                                  rygarf: A tank that was just set up 5 days ago is really too new to have any fish in it that are not expendable. The tank should be "cycled" (ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle) first which takes an average 4 to 6 weeks. While your fish may be alright through this process, there's always the possibility that you may lose at least some. Check one of Patrick's recent messages for his link onto that subject. In addition to checking nitrites, you should also check ammonia which will be spiking first, within the next week or so. Unless the comparatively harmless nitrates go sky-high (no real reason for them to), there's no need to test them, but you could add some plants to have them absorb this. Changing water during this cycling will only prolong the process of building up a sufficient bacteria growth and should only be done if you feel your test readings are too high where they would endanger your fish. As far as adding bacteria enzymes, it sounds like you already did this. Adding more won't hurt, but keep in mind that most bacteria enzymes sold are useless; you might just as well add a little extra fish food, as by now you should already have bacteria building up in your tank. If your object is to eliminate the ammonia build-up, which it sounds like, keep in mind that you first need (and will naturally get) an ammonia/nitrite build-up in order to establish your nitrifying bacteria, to the point where they will keep the ammonia in check. Your fishes' waste should by now be adding to that ammonia build-up. Your pH of 7.4 is just fine. As I understand it, male puffers develop additional black markings on their sides as they grow. Without seeing yours, I can't say if that's what's happening. Ray  
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4295 From: red-eye Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: question on cory cats
                                                                                                  most newts will eat blood worms or small- medium gut loaded crickets. What did yours eat? What type of newt?
                                                                                                  red-eye




                                                                                                  At 08:06 AM 8/15/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                  Hello,
                                                                                                    well the store finally has the cory cats i've been waiting for but
                                                                                                  they are so tiny like maybe the size of a dime. (and i'm talking
                                                                                                  about there whole length) would they be ok with mine, mine are full
                                                                                                  grown. thanks. and ps. my newt that would never eat finally he's
                                                                                                  started to eat.


                                                                                                  groups.com

                                                                                                  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                                                                                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                  red-eye

                                                                                                  <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                  <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>

                                                                                                  Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                  The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                  If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                  http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                  <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  Sulcata Station
                                                                                                  For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                  http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                  ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                  Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                  Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                  ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4296 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: question on cory cats
                                                                                                  he is a very tiny fire bellied newt. you can even see his bones.
                                                                                                  very skinny. we tried some different live foods (worms, pin head
                                                                                                  crickets, packaged bloodworms, no live ones here. newt pellets, fish
                                                                                                  food, cory cat pellets and he wouldn't eat any of it. i've had him
                                                                                                  about 2 months and than yesterday i put in some fish food and he was
                                                                                                  gulping at it, actually eating it.


                                                                                                  > most newts will eat blood worms or small- medium gut loaded
                                                                                                  crickets. What
                                                                                                  > did yours eat? What type of newt?
                                                                                                  > red-eye
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > At 08:06 AM 8/15/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                  > >Hello,
                                                                                                  > > well the store finally has the cory cats i've been waiting for
                                                                                                  but
                                                                                                  > >they are so tiny like maybe the size of a dime. (and i'm talking
                                                                                                  > >about there whole length) would they be ok with mine, mine are
                                                                                                  full
                                                                                                  > >grown. thanks. and ps. my newt that would never eat finally he's
                                                                                                  > >started to eat.
                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                  > >groups.com
                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > Regards
                                                                                                  > red-eye
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                                                                                                  Sulcata
                                                                                                  > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                  > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  <http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml>http://turtlehomes.org/usa/tes
                                                                                                  t.shtml
                                                                                                  > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                  > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                  > <http://www.sulcata-station.org>http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                  > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  > The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps>http://groups.yahoo.com
                                                                                                  /group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                  > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                  > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                  > ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4297 From: jd7152 Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: where did they go?
                                                                                                  came home from work, 1 fish sucked on to strainer, one lying on
                                                                                                  bottom inbetween two rocks, other 5 fish gone, except for the 3-4 in
                                                                                                  pleco. They couldn't have jumped out, not in filter. water is
                                                                                                  perfect, didn't just die for no reason, all in the same day??? , any
                                                                                                  one ever had a pleco eat there other fish?? Only thing I can
                                                                                                  figure...fish were 5 fancy tail guppys and 2 tetras.

                                                                                                  any ideas??
                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4298 From: Joseph Gumbosky Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                  Subject: R/O & Purganic
                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                    I've noticed that some folks on this list use R/O water and that there seems to be some concern re having adequate mineral content in the water.  I've been using Purganic Mineral Powder for myself for several years (if I start to notice an irregular heart rhythm) and thought it might not be a bad idea to use a little in my fish tank every now and then just to make sure that the  various trace minerals are present in the water.  This might be one reason that I seem to be able to keep plants in my tank even though I run a UG system.  I'm not endorsing this, just suggesting that the more experimental among us might want to consider this.  Opinions?
                                                                                                                  -Joe G. 
                                                                                                    ____________________________________________________
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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4299 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
                                                                                                    Actually, somewhere on my server, I have recipes for "making" water. While
                                                                                                    RO does "clean up" your water, by removing certain molecules, it is far from
                                                                                                    being a "pure" water.

                                                                                                    To use reverse osmosis, you force water through a membrane or more than one
                                                                                                    membrane. Water that does not pass through the membrane(s) is "waste" water
                                                                                                    and discarded by the unit. You may reserve this "waste" and utilize it for
                                                                                                    other things. The purity of the water that does pass through the membrane is
                                                                                                    dependent on the type of membrane used.

                                                                                                    It is distilled water that is pure water, and must be otherwise treated to
                                                                                                    be useful in the aquarium.

                                                                                                    Note to Joe G:

                                                                                                    I did a Google on "Purganic Mineral Powder" to find an alternate spelling,
                                                                                                    "Pureganic Mineral Powder", which is what I take you to mean. Nowhere did I
                                                                                                    find a listing of ingredients that would tell me whether it would be safe to
                                                                                                    use in an aquarium or not. Since the only references I found were
                                                                                                    "alternative health" sites, that raised my suspicions even more, as well as
                                                                                                    the descriptions I found on these sites. Monatomic in the descriptions refer
                                                                                                    to elements that can exist as a single atom. Mercury is a monatomic element.
                                                                                                    I'm not sure I'd purposely put mercury in my body.

                                                                                                    \\Steve//

                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    From: Joseph Gumbosky [mailto:joegum@...]
                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 3:42 PM
                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] R/O & Purganic


                                                                                                    I've noticed that some folks on this list use R/O water and that there seems
                                                                                                    to be some concern re having adequate mineral content in the water. I've
                                                                                                    been using Purganic Mineral Powder for myself for several years (if I start
                                                                                                    to notice an irregular heart rhythm) and thought it might not be a bad idea
                                                                                                    to use a little in my fish tank every now and then just to make sure that
                                                                                                    the various trace minerals are present in the water. This might be one
                                                                                                    reason that I seem to be able to keep plants in my tank even though I run a
                                                                                                    UG system. I'm not endorsing this, just suggesting that the more
                                                                                                    experimental among us might want to consider this. Opinions?
                                                                                                    -Joe G.


                                                                                                    ____________________________________________________
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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4300 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: question on cory cats
                                                                                                    i sure think so... mine arnt agrressive at all. i have 4 and all different sizes really the panda one that i added last is still very small sammer than a dime still and they leave him alone... good luck what kinda are you getting btw.. shannon
                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                      well the store finally has the cory cats i've been waiting for but
                                                                                                    they are so tiny like maybe the size of a dime. (and i'm talking
                                                                                                    about there whole length) would they be ok with mine, mine are full
                                                                                                    grown. thanks. and ps. my newt that would never eat finally he's
                                                                                                    started to eat.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4301 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: question on cory cats
                                                                                                    I have a bronze and a peppered, and plan on getting another
                                                                                                    peppered. =:o) they are so cute.


                                                                                                    > i sure think so... mine arnt agrressive at all. i have 4 and all
                                                                                                    different
                                                                                                    > sizes really the panda one that i added last is still very small
                                                                                                    sammer than a
                                                                                                    > dime still and they leave him alone... good luck what kinda are
                                                                                                    you getting
                                                                                                    > btw.. shannon
                                                                                                    > Hello,
                                                                                                    > well the store finally has the cory cats i've been waiting for
                                                                                                    but
                                                                                                    > they are so tiny like maybe the size of a dime. (and i'm talking
                                                                                                    > about there whole length) would they be ok with mine, mine are
                                                                                                    full
                                                                                                    > grown. thanks. and ps. my newt that would never eat finally he's
                                                                                                    > started to eat.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4302 From: utacutie Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Foam? Help!
                                                                                                    Thanks for the advice, Steve. I will consider all of that. I don't
                                                                                                    have any plants in the tank right now, and it has just finished
                                                                                                    cycling. My levels today were ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0 and nitrate:
                                                                                                    20. Hopefully this will go away, I will probably vacuum out 1/2 of
                                                                                                    the gravel in about 3 weeks, to give the bacteria more time to
                                                                                                    stabilize..may also look into getting live plants for the tank at
                                                                                                    some point. I have been very cautious not to overfeed, but will
                                                                                                    continue to keep it at a minimum too. I'm going to try to contact
                                                                                                    about the water supply tomorrow and maybe I can get a free report..I
                                                                                                    will keep you updated. Thanks again for your help!

                                                                                                    Erin


                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                    <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                    > Erin,
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Generally a foam collecting on the surface of the water indicates
                                                                                                    a high
                                                                                                    > organic load in the tank. If the tank is currently cycling, this
                                                                                                    may be the
                                                                                                    > cause of it, and it should go away when the cycle has completed.
                                                                                                    The removal
                                                                                                    > of the foam will not remove the underlying cause of the foam.
                                                                                                    There are many
                                                                                                    > scenarios that can lead to a high organic content.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Overfeeding is a popular one. With only the tiger barb in the
                                                                                                    tank, you need
                                                                                                    > to feed a very minimal amount. When you feed, determine whether
                                                                                                    the barb is
                                                                                                    > eating everything that goes into the tank, or very nearly
                                                                                                    everything. If it
                                                                                                    > is not, cut back on the amount of food.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > If you have also planted the tank, the plants, as they establish
                                                                                                    themselves,
                                                                                                    > may be a cause. leaves that are dying and have dies and not been
                                                                                                    removed can
                                                                                                    > lead to a high organic load. Remove and discard all dying and dead
                                                                                                    leaves
                                                                                                    > and stems.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > If the substrate was not thoroughly cleaned, this could be a
                                                                                                    cause. If this
                                                                                                    > is the case, you'll need to stir up the substrate when doing water
                                                                                                    changes,
                                                                                                    > but don't disturb more than 25-33% of the substrate per water
                                                                                                    change. The
                                                                                                    > lesser amount if you are using an undergravel filter. If you have
                                                                                                    not
                                                                                                    > planted, you may wish to remove the substrate and give it a
                                                                                                    thorough
                                                                                                    > cleaning. I'd not do this until the cycle has completed to ensure
                                                                                                    that it is
                                                                                                    > not the cycle that is causing the problem.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Finally, it could be from your own water supply. If you are on a
                                                                                                    municipal
                                                                                                    > system, the provider is required to give you test results on a
                                                                                                    yearly basis,
                                                                                                    > but you need not wait until then. You should be able to ask for a
                                                                                                    report at
                                                                                                    > any time, but they are not required to give it to you for free,
                                                                                                    though I
                                                                                                    > have not yet had to pay for one. You will need to look for organic
                                                                                                    elements
                                                                                                    > and compounds when reading the report.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > A high level of phosphates can lead to the foam you are asking
                                                                                                    about as
                                                                                                    > well. This may be caused by a too high dose of plant fertilizer,
                                                                                                    if it was
                                                                                                    > used, feeding too much food, or come in your tap water. The plants
                                                                                                    will
                                                                                                    > eventually help you to control this, including the one plant
                                                                                                    everyone seems
                                                                                                    > to be able to grow--algae.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > For the time being, I'd let the tank settle down a bit, and not do
                                                                                                    a thing,
                                                                                                    > except, perhaps, remove the foam. If the foaming continues, start
                                                                                                    looking
                                                                                                    > for the cause.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > \\Steve//
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    > From: utacutie [mailto:utacutie@y...]
                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:36 PM
                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Foam? Help!
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Hi all,
                                                                                                    > I noticed that a foam like/bubble substance has been collecting on
                                                                                                    > top of the water and will not go away. I have 2 airstones running,
                                                                                                    > but not sure if this is what is causing it. It doesn't seem to
                                                                                                    > affect my fish (only have 1 tiger barb in the tank right now). My
                                                                                                    29
                                                                                                    > tank is currently cycling (ammonia: about .5, nitrite: .25 and
                                                                                                    > nitrate: 5.0) Any ideas as to what this foam might be and how to
                                                                                                    get
                                                                                                    > rid of it? Thanks!
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Erin
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4303 From: paul helms Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
                                                                                                    mark weiss ro vital is an excellent additive to put
                                                                                                    into distilled water, it has everything needed fro
                                                                                                    fresh water mineral content, and is specifically for
                                                                                                    fish


                                                                                                    --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                    > Actually, somewhere on my server, I have recipes for
                                                                                                    > "making" water. While
                                                                                                    > RO does "clean up" your water, by removing certain
                                                                                                    > molecules, it is far from
                                                                                                    > being a "pure" water.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > To use reverse osmosis, you force water through a
                                                                                                    > membrane or more than one
                                                                                                    > membrane. Water that does not pass through the
                                                                                                    > membrane(s) is "waste" water
                                                                                                    > and discarded by the unit. You may reserve this
                                                                                                    > "waste" and utilize it for
                                                                                                    > other things. The purity of the water that does pass
                                                                                                    > through the membrane is
                                                                                                    > dependent on the type of membrane used.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > It is distilled water that is pure water, and must
                                                                                                    > be otherwise treated to
                                                                                                    > be useful in the aquarium.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Note to Joe G:
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I did a Google on "Purganic Mineral Powder" to find
                                                                                                    > an alternate spelling,
                                                                                                    > "Pureganic Mineral Powder", which is what I take you
                                                                                                    > to mean. Nowhere did I
                                                                                                    > find a listing of ingredients that would tell me
                                                                                                    > whether it would be safe to
                                                                                                    > use in an aquarium or not. Since the only references
                                                                                                    > I found were
                                                                                                    > "alternative health" sites, that raised my
                                                                                                    > suspicions even more, as well as
                                                                                                    > the descriptions I found on these sites. Monatomic
                                                                                                    > in the descriptions refer
                                                                                                    > to elements that can exist as a single atom. Mercury
                                                                                                    > is a monatomic element.
                                                                                                    > I'm not sure I'd purposely put mercury in my body.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > \\Steve//
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    > From: Joseph Gumbosky [mailto:joegum@...]
                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 3:42 PM
                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] R/O &
                                                                                                    > Purganic
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I've noticed that some folks on this list use R/O
                                                                                                    > water and that there seems
                                                                                                    > to be some concern re having adequate mineral
                                                                                                    > content in the water. I've
                                                                                                    > been using Purganic Mineral Powder for myself for
                                                                                                    > several years (if I start
                                                                                                    > to notice an irregular heart rhythm) and thought it
                                                                                                    > might not be a bad idea
                                                                                                    > to use a little in my fish tank every now and then
                                                                                                    > just to make sure that
                                                                                                    > the various trace minerals are present in the
                                                                                                    > water. This might be one
                                                                                                    > reason that I seem to be able to keep plants in my
                                                                                                    > tank even though I run a
                                                                                                    > UG system. I'm not endorsing this, just suggesting
                                                                                                    > that the more
                                                                                                    > experimental among us might want to consider this.
                                                                                                    > Opinions?
                                                                                                    > -Joe G.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > ____________________________________________________
                                                                                                    > IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click
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                                                                                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4304 From: paul helms Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Eheim vs. Rena - Canister Filters?
                                                                                                    generaaly it is great to purchase filtration as if you
                                                                                                    had a tank double the size of what you actually have.
                                                                                                    if you have a 55 gallon, buy filtration for a 100
                                                                                                    gallon tank. the filters are marked for up to a
                                                                                                    certain volumes, which is under perfect circumstances.
                                                                                                    paul

                                                                                                    --- Cathey <catheylove@...> wrote:

                                                                                                    > If I were going to get a new canister filter for my
                                                                                                    > frog tank and
                                                                                                    > it's a 50 gallon, how much "overfiltering" is a good
                                                                                                    > idea?
                                                                                                    > I'm probably looking at one that will do up to 75-80
                                                                                                    > gallons.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I'm thinking about getting an Eheim ECCO since
                                                                                                    > Eheim's are supposed
                                                                                                    > to be quite nice... Anyone have any experience with
                                                                                                    > them? I wonder
                                                                                                    > how they compare to a Rena Filstar as far as
                                                                                                    > performance and ease of
                                                                                                    > maintenance...?
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Thanks for any thoughts!
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > ~Cathey
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >





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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4305 From: paul helms Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: help me balance this dang tank
                                                                                                    mainly true, but there are some nitrate filters out
                                                                                                    there, which are air tight filters that grow anaerobic
                                                                                                    bacteria in the cylinder that consume nitrates, but
                                                                                                    this is about a $200.00 investment.

                                                                                                    --- Jamison Terauchi <japanesegorilla05@...>
                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                    > The thing about bio filters (well actually with
                                                                                                    > pretty much all filters) is that they can get rid of
                                                                                                    > ammonia and nitrites, but not nitrates. The only way
                                                                                                    > to get rid of nitrates is through water changes and
                                                                                                    > plants. I dont know if you have any plants in your
                                                                                                    > tank because you only mentioned fish, but I would
                                                                                                    > advise you to get some right away.
                                                                                                    > Hope this helps,
                                                                                                    > Jay
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > fishndoglvr <fivesmiths@...> wrote:
                                                                                                    > Can't get my nitrates under control...




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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4306 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: question on cory cats food for tanks
                                                                                                    everything in my tank is obsessed with my frog pellets.. which dirves me nuts cuase they are the most expensive.. next in line is the shrimp pellets.. the fish food comes in last... but i guess we get them what makes them hapy right.. shannon
                                                                                                    he is a very tiny fire bellied newt. you can even see his bones.
                                                                                                    very skinny. we tried some different live foods (worms, pin head
                                                                                                    crickets, packaged bloodworms, no live ones here. newt pellets, fish
                                                                                                    food, cory cat pellets and he wouldn't eat any of it. i've had him
                                                                                                    about 2 months and than yesterday i put in some fish food and he was
                                                                                                    gulping at it, actually eating it.


                                                                                                    > most newts will eat blood worms or small- medium gut loaded
                                                                                                    crickets. What
                                                                                                    > did yours eat? What type of newt?
                                                                                                    > red-eye
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4307 From: bryants4god Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    Actually zebra loaches are fine with snails, it's the clown loaches you have to watch out for, they'll eat right through the shell.  They get golfball size at about 6-8 months old.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 12:25 AM
                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                    hey terri... how big do the big ones get... i have a now zebra botia and it is getting away my pest snails as i think you called them.. i supposed i cant have one of the ones you sale and with that zebra can i.. shannon
                                                                                                    sell snails for freshwater aquariums.  There are those of us that enjoy them more than fish believe it or not! I love the colors of saltwater tanks but don't want one so with snails I can get purple, pink, blue etc in my tank.  Giant snails are very friendly and playful I have several of those that play in the bubble wands most of the day, it's fun to watch.
                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                     



                                                                                                            



                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4308 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Tank Backgrounds
                                                                                                    You might try painting with the acrilic paint they sell in the craft
                                                                                                    section of Walmart. My roommate used to paint our kitchen windows
                                                                                                    with it. It doesnt smell terrible at all, and Its EASY to take off
                                                                                                    when you decide to change it.

                                                                                                    Good Luck!!!

                                                                                                    Joy

                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                    <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                    > For me it is a black background. If you paint it on, then brush it
                                                                                                    on rather
                                                                                                    > than spray. First, you don't have an overspray problem when you
                                                                                                    use a brush,
                                                                                                    > and it is much easier to get an even coating where you want it
                                                                                                    with a brush
                                                                                                    > rather than a spray can. I've never had a problem with bristle
                                                                                                    lines, but,
                                                                                                    > maybe I'm just good or lucky--some say I'm good and lucky.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Get a paint that will adhere to glass, presuming that you have a
                                                                                                    glass tank.
                                                                                                    > If your tank is made of another material, then get a paint that
                                                                                                    will adhere
                                                                                                    > to that material. If it is a plywood/fiberglass back, use a good
                                                                                                    grade
                                                                                                    > marine paint. It should last you a good long time as long as you
                                                                                                    take care
                                                                                                    > when moving equipment hanging off the back.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I've never had much luck with the backings you stick on the back
                                                                                                    of the
                                                                                                    > tank. They all seem to come loose with time and you end up having
                                                                                                    to contort
                                                                                                    > your body in strange ways to get them stuck again, though if I had
                                                                                                    called
                                                                                                    > for help, my contortions may have not been so strange. I will only
                                                                                                    use a
                                                                                                    > backing I have to stick on in special short term situations, such
                                                                                                    as show
                                                                                                    > tanks where one show may specify one color and another show may
                                                                                                    specify
                                                                                                    > another color for backing.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    > From: Daniel Brown [mailto:mailinglists@d...]
                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:16 AM
                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank Backgrounds
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > What are your thoughts on good tank backgrounds? I'm in the
                                                                                                    process of
                                                                                                    > getting a my first tank set up. I've seen the rolls of background
                                                                                                    > images/pictures you can get in pet shops and they lookng very tacky
                                                                                                    (IMHO).
                                                                                                    > I've been doing a bit of reading on Aquascaping and I've noticed
                                                                                                    allot of
                                                                                                    > people have recommend painting the back exterior wall of the tank.
                                                                                                    I've been
                                                                                                    > thinking of spraying (to get a nice even finish free of brush
                                                                                                    strokes) mine
                                                                                                    > either a sea blue or black, what are your thoughts on good
                                                                                                    background
                                                                                                    > colours for a smallish tank of aprox 60cm in length?
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I've seen the textured backing tiles you can buy too, how do they
                                                                                                    look in a
                                                                                                    > tank?
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Cheers,
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Daniel
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4309 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    terri, how much do you sell your giant snails for? i'm interested in
                                                                                                    obtaining some.
                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                    On Aug 15, 2004, at 11:25 PM, bryants4god wrote:

                                                                                                    > Actually zebra loaches are fine with snails, it's the clown loaches
                                                                                                    > you have to watch out for, they'll eat right through the shell.  They
                                                                                                    > get golfball size at about 6-8 months old.
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                    Adornments....
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4310 From: devileye72 Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: New to the group
                                                                                                    Hi, I just joined and have been keeping fish for almost 2 years now.
                                                                                                    I've been steadily upgrading my tank size to keep up with the demands
                                                                                                    of my fish. (I tend to spoil them a bit.) I currently have a
                                                                                                    moderately planted 120 gallon tank with 5 Discus, 3 Blue Rams, a
                                                                                                    Jurupari, 20 Cardinal Tetras, 2 Pictus Catfish, 2 Banjo Cats, 8
                                                                                                    Ottos, and a bunch of different loaches. Somewhere in the tank are 2
                                                                                                    dinky little rubber-lipped plecos, but I only see them once in a blue
                                                                                                    moon. Oh, and a bunch of ghost shrimp that the fish apparently have
                                                                                                    no intention of ever eating. (They've even started breeding!) I want
                                                                                                    to add some more cardinals, but I was also thinking about silver
                                                                                                    hatchets. I haven't decided yet.

                                                                                                    I just recently set up a second tank for my "evil" fish (or, rather,
                                                                                                    those fish that don't play nice.) My 2 pink convicts and my green
                                                                                                    tiger loach live in there.

                                                                                                    I used to have a pair of oscars, but my dad "inherited" them when I
                                                                                                    moved out.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4311 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: question on cory cats food for tanks
                                                                                                    My endlers are the same way they go straight for the shrimp pellets
                                                                                                    the cory cats don't even try and eat them.



                                                                                                    > everything in my tank is obsessed with my frog pellets.. which
                                                                                                    dirves me nuts
                                                                                                    > cuase they are the most expensive.. next in line is the shrimp
                                                                                                    pellets.. the
                                                                                                    > fish food comes in last... but i guess we get them what makes them hapy
                                                                                                    > right.. shannon
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4312 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part IV
                                                                                                    [Reposted to correct spelling error in Subject: line.]

                                                                                                    Hmmm, two weeks since I last wrote, and no comments on filtration. I must
                                                                                                    have done a much better job than I thought! Since there has been a recent
                                                                                                    discussion on the list about heaters, I'll touch upon them this week, and,
                                                                                                    if I don't ramble on too much, I'll also say something about substrates.

                                                                                                    First, the heaters. How much do you need to heat a tank to the proper level?
                                                                                                    Well, the definitive answer is that it depends. Like so much in this hobby,
                                                                                                    the truth lays somewhere along a line that includes a number of factors. It
                                                                                                    is difficult to give a hard and fast rule. Most people keep aquaria (that is
                                                                                                    the proper plural for aquarium, in case anyone was wondering) in the living
                                                                                                    area of their homes, less wattage is required than if an aquarium is kept in
                                                                                                    a cool basement, unheated, but insulated garage, etc. The general range for
                                                                                                    aquarium temperature is somewhere between 72 and 80^o F. (the ^0 is used to
                                                                                                    signify the degree symbol since this is written in plain text). Most homes
                                                                                                    have an ambient temperature either slightly below this range or equal to the
                                                                                                    lower end of the range. What this means is that not much is really required
                                                                                                    to raise the temperature to the level you desire.

                                                                                                    In this case, one could use a guideline of 2.5 watts per gallon of tank. If
                                                                                                    your ambient temperature is cooler, or if you require a higher water
                                                                                                    temperature, say for discus, then you may wish to go to a 5 watt per gallon
                                                                                                    rule. As usual, these are just a general guideline, your mileage may vary.

                                                                                                    For larger tanks, say over 30 gallons, you may very well, and very wisely,
                                                                                                    opt for two heaters, each supplying half the wattage needed for the size of
                                                                                                    the tank you have. If you have a 50 gallon tank, following the lower wattage
                                                                                                    for a tank at an average normal temperature, you would require about 125
                                                                                                    watts (50 * 2.5). Since we don't have a heater available to us that weighs
                                                                                                    in with 62.5 watts, we would probably opt for two 75 watt heaters.

                                                                                                    The reasoning behind using two heaters is fairly simple. Should a heater
                                                                                                    fail, then the other heater can take over, or not--depending on which way
                                                                                                    the failure goes, stuck on or not turning on at all. Should a heater stick
                                                                                                    on, the other heater will not kick in because its thermostat will determine
                                                                                                    the water is already warm enough, and you will not come home to a
                                                                                                    bouillabaisse. Should one of the heaters fail and not turn on, the other
                                                                                                    heater can provide enough heat for the tank until the failed heater is
                                                                                                    replaced. The use of two heaters is a cheap form of insurance.

                                                                                                    Admittedly, the quality of heaters is vastly improved from what it was years
                                                                                                    ago, and this may seem like overkill, but should you suffer a heater
                                                                                                    failure, you'll be glad you went the two heater route.

                                                                                                    There may be the question of using a standard hang from the side heater or a
                                                                                                    submersible heater. Today, I think this is just a personal preference. I
                                                                                                    don't see and real disadvantage to using one over the other.

                                                                                                    Once you have water in the tank, and it has come up to at least room
                                                                                                    temperature, you can then attach the heater(s) and start to set the
                                                                                                    temperature. Turn the thermostat all the way down on the heater(s) and then
                                                                                                    turn it up until you see the indicator has shown the heater has turned on.
                                                                                                    Wait at least 12 hours and then adjust the thermostat either up or down
                                                                                                    depending on the temperature you are trying to maintain. This process will
                                                                                                    take several days to reach your optimum temperature. There are some heaters
                                                                                                    that have a marked thermostat that indicates certain temperature levels, and
                                                                                                    setting to that level is supposed to maintain that temperature. When I tried
                                                                                                    one, shortly after they were available in the hobby, I was not very
                                                                                                    satisfied with their accuracy. This may have changed in the intervening
                                                                                                    years, so you may want to bring them up to near the desired temperature and
                                                                                                    take it from there.

                                                                                                    Just remember that water take a lot of energy to change temperature. That
                                                                                                    means that it is slow to rise in temperature and slow to fall, so don't get
                                                                                                    too eager to adjust your thermostat when first setting the temperature. Take
                                                                                                    it slow and easy until you reach the desired level.

                                                                                                    Well, this has gone on longer than I first envisioned. We'll get to
                                                                                                    substrate next time, unless an interesting topic presents itself in the
                                                                                                    meanwhile. As usual, I am open to any comments, questions, or currency
                                                                                                    thrown my way <g>.

                                                                                                    \\Steve//
                                                                                                    For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                    http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                    If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                    http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                    Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                    http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                    Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                    http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                    List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                    gwapa
                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4313 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part V
                                                                                                    This week, let's talk a bit about substrates, that is the stuff you place on
                                                                                                    the bottom of your tank.

                                                                                                    The easiest to care for is a bare tank bottom. You'll not often see this,
                                                                                                    except under special circumstances. In the fish store is one place, in a
                                                                                                    fish room is another. If you are raising and breeding fish, a bare bottom
                                                                                                    tank is desirable, though not always possible. However, when the fry are
                                                                                                    removed from the parents, you definitely want a bare bottom tank.

                                                                                                    The big advantage to a bare bottom tank is that you can see everything that
                                                                                                    would normally get trapped in the substrate. It is very easy to clean
                                                                                                    because there is nothing to get in the way of the siphon, except for an easy
                                                                                                    to move box or sponge filter.

                                                                                                    If the tank is in a living area, you are definitely going to have some sort
                                                                                                    of substrate, if not by your choice, by the choice of your other half, your
                                                                                                    roommate(s), etc. Looking at the LFS's selection, you may be a bit
                                                                                                    bewildered. So many kinds. My particular choice, in most cases, is to go for
                                                                                                    a "natural" colored #2 gravel. (Bird grit is a #1 gravel, and the size you
                                                                                                    see in most tanks is a #3 gravel, so #2 is a size in between these two.) The
                                                                                                    reasons I like a #2 are that it is a good substrate to plant in, it has more
                                                                                                    surface area for bacterial growth, especially if I am using an undergravel
                                                                                                    filter, and it seem to be easier on the fish that mouth the gravel and live
                                                                                                    on and in the substrate.

                                                                                                    Once you get above the #3 sized gravel, you are looking at a substrate that
                                                                                                    will be hard to clean, hard to aquascape, and hard to plant live plants in.
                                                                                                    The lager pea gravel is better suited for an accent area, if you use it at
                                                                                                    all.

                                                                                                    Sand is often mentioned for a substrate. While it may be nice in a creek or
                                                                                                    a pond, it is not really suitable for a tank because it simply compacts too
                                                                                                    much. Anything that might get caught in it can quickly encounter anaerobic
                                                                                                    conditions, which may lead to the production of gases that can be harmful to
                                                                                                    your fish. It is not well suited to planting as the plant roots do not have
                                                                                                    the wherewithal to push through a compacted substrate. Sand is OK to use
                                                                                                    should you just wish for a covering on the bottom of the tank. A thin layer
                                                                                                    of sand will do, but not more than a half inch.

                                                                                                    Once you have made a choice as to the size of your substrate, you will need,
                                                                                                    in some instances to chose a color. As I noted earlier, I'm a fan of the
                                                                                                    "natural" colored stuff. However, especially in the #3 gravel, you may be
                                                                                                    faced with an array of colors to chose from. Feel free to make your choice.
                                                                                                    Its your tank, so if you want hot pink or Day-Glo orange, who am I to be the
                                                                                                    arbitrator of your taste. Actually, to best show the color of your fish, you
                                                                                                    may want to consider the black colored gravel or another darker color.

                                                                                                    Once you have made your substrate choice, prior to placing it in your tank,
                                                                                                    you'll need to clean it. I have noticed that some gravel will advertise
                                                                                                    itself as being pre-washed. Fine. But you'll still need to clean it to
                                                                                                    ensure that you do not introduce any stone dust that may discolor the water
                                                                                                    and stay in suspension for quite sometime. Use a bucket or other similar
                                                                                                    container and fill it 1/4 to 1/2 full with the gravel. I generally then take
                                                                                                    it outside, but I've also used bathtubs and sinks, to wash it. Just start
                                                                                                    the water running into your bucket and let it overflow. Once it starts
                                                                                                    overflowing, start swirling the gravel with your hand. Keep this up until
                                                                                                    the overflow runs clear. Empty as much of the water from the bucket as you
                                                                                                    can, then transfer the gravel to your tank. Repeat as necessary. Remember,
                                                                                                    the time to put in an undergravel filter (UGF) is BEFORE you add the gravel.

                                                                                                    <aside>I remember the time I decided to convert a tank to a UGF after it had
                                                                                                    been set up. Never again. Just doesn't work out real well.</aside>

                                                                                                    "How much gravel do I need?" you might well ask. Well, it does vary some
                                                                                                    depending on the size of the gravel you wish to use, but a starting point of
                                                                                                    1 pound per gallon is a good start. If it is not enough, return to the store
                                                                                                    and purchase some more, based on how far your first batch went, or, if you
                                                                                                    have extra, put it aside for another tank.

                                                                                                    If you are going to have a planted tank, the time to add laterite, if you
                                                                                                    are going to use it, is now, when you are adding your substrate to the tank.
                                                                                                    I've never used it so I really cannot give more advice than that. Reading
                                                                                                    and asking questions will help you with that part.

                                                                                                    More next time. In the meanwhile your questions and comments are welcome.

                                                                                                    \\Steve//
                                                                                                    For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                    http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                    If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                    http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                    Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                    http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                    Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                    http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                    List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                    gwapa
                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4314 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    you mean the zebra loaches are fine with your snails not my pest snails.. cuase mine has eaten all my pest snails gone... shannon
                                                                                                    Actually zebra loaches are fine with snails, it's the clown loaches you have to watch out for, they'll eat right through the shell.  They get golfball size at about 6-8 months old.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4315 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Angelfish
                                                                                                    SS,
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                        Yes I did float for 20 minutes, then added cup of water to bag and then waiting anther 15 minutes, then dump another cup into bag and then waited 20 minutes, then released into tank.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                        The Marble Angel is about the size of a Nicked and the Koi is the size of a Quarter.  They both came out of the same tank at the LFS and yes they seemed fine in the store.  i spent like 30 Minutes watching them before I bought them.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    I do not know the PH of the water from the LFS.  Now today they seem a little better, the koi will come out, but not for long periods of time. 
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Robb
                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 8:56 PM
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angelfish

                                                                                                    Robb, Your water parameters look fine and should certainly be alright for the fish provided they were aclimated slowly and not just dumped in after the temperature equalized; hope you floated the bag for about 20 minutes. Before releasing the fish (Angels) into the tank, did you first mix some of the tank water with the bag water a number of times to help adjust the bag water's pH more closely to that of the tank water? If not, you should have, to prevent pH shock; the Koi Angel could have come from water with a pH of 6.0 for all you know. How large are the Angelfish? Is there much of a size difference between the two Angelfish? Angelfish can get agressive to each other as they get larger and the Marble guy may be bullying the Koi. Do you know the pH of the water the Angels came from? Always a good idea to test it from the bag when first opening it. Was they Koi Angel behaving normally in the lfs (local fish store)? Need more info to figure what may be happening. The other fish -- Zebra Danios and Gold Barbs -- are both inoffensive and shouldn't be bothering anybody. SS

                                                                                                            



                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4316 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/15/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: acclamate
                                                                                                    if i acclamated a brackish puffer with an hour to freshwater, do i
                                                                                                    have to acclamate it back to brackish or can i just add the aquarium
                                                                                                    salt in with the acclamation.

                                                                                                    ryan
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4317 From: paul helms Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: acclamate
                                                                                                    add it slowly

                                                                                                    --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                    > if i acclamated a brackish puffer with an hour to
                                                                                                    > freshwater, do i
                                                                                                    > have to acclamate it back to brackish or can i just
                                                                                                    > add the aquarium
                                                                                                    > salt in with the acclamation.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > ryan
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4318 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: brackish scavengers
                                                                                                    does anybody have any suggestions for brackish scavengers that dont
                                                                                                    grow so big. the only one i know is the white-tip shark but it
                                                                                                    supposed to grow pretty big. thanks
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4319 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Matéria sobre novidades no fundo do mar! Por Julio (jccsfilho).
                                                                                                    Agora no fórum AquaBahia a matéria sobre uma expedição (Mar-Eco) com novidades do fundo do mar! Por Julio (jccsfilho)
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    A matéria está:
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Se você não for um usuário registrado no fórum clique no link abaixo e realize seu registro, é fácil rápido e gratuito:
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Abraços,
                                                                                                    GATTI
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4320 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Angelfish
                                                                                                    Robb, The fact that your Koi Angel is at least starting to come out is a good indication. With both Angels coming from the same LFS tank and the Marble guy doing fine shows that the LFS water probably wasn't too different from your tank water, especially since the Koi was also doing fine in the LFS. It appears that the Koi may just be taking a little longer to adjust to the new environment. As he is that much bigger, we can rule out bullying from the Marble. Give him a little more time; he wouldn't suddenly start to be coming out if there was something wrong with him. If that were the case, he would only behave as he first did or worse. Feeding them live foods such as adult brine shrimp sometimes brings them "out of their shell", and lets them feel "more at home". Alternatively, if the Koi wasn't really as well as he first appeared to you at the LFS, which doesn't seem the case at this time, he may bear more watching as then there are any number of possibilities -- he may just be weak from transit (maybe the LFS just got him in), he may have an internal infection, he may be inherently weak being poorly bred, etc. Hard to pinpoint without knowing or seeing anything obvious. All in all though, even his slight improvement to date would seem encouraging. SS
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4321 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: OT - SORT OF
                                                                                                    The past few days, when I sign on, I get a message that "An update to Yahoo security is available.............." And asking me if I want to download it.

                                                                                                    Anyone know if this is legit.  I don't understand why Yahoo would have to download something into my computer for security purposes.

                                                                                                    Thank you.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4322 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: OT - SORT OF
                                                                                                    Unless Yahoo is your isp you shouldn't ever have to download anything from them.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    From: DB1RDMAN@... [mailto:DB1RDMAN@...]
                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 8:27 AM
                                                                                                    To: DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] OT - SORT OF

                                                                                                    The past few days, when I sign on, I get a message that "An update to Yahoo security is available.............." And asking me if I want to download it.

                                                                                                    Anyone know if this is legit.  I don't understand why Yahoo would have to download something into my computer for security purposes.

                                                                                                    Thank you.


                                                                                                            



                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4323 From: Julie Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: OT - SORT OF
                                                                                                    Yahoo, or yahoo messenger?  There is a security update for messenger.  You can find it here
                                                                                                    Don't know about anyother yahoo updates
                                                                                                    julie
                                                                                                    Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                    I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                    The past few days, when I sign on, I get a message that "An update to Yahoo security is available.............." And asking me if I want to download it.

                                                                                                    Anyone know if this is legit.  I don't understand why Yahoo would have to download something into my computer for security purposes.

                                                                                                    Thank you.


                                                                                                            



                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4324 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    The breed of snail I have, pomacea bridgesii is fine with your zebra loach.  They are to large for it to eat in one bite so they should be safe.  There shells are also much thicker.  I have searched the data base of the snail forum I am on and every post about zebra loaches says they are fine with brig snails.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    I would get one of these myself to get rid of pest snails but I am afraid the loach would be able to eat the baby snails that hatch into tanks sometimes when I don't find the clutch in time.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 10:44 PM
                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                    you mean the zebra loaches are fine with your snails not my pest snails.. cuase mine has eaten all my pest snails gone... shannon
                                                                                                    Actually zebra loaches are fine with snails, it's the clown loaches you have to watch out for, they'll eat right through the shell.  They get golfball size at about 6-8 months old.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4325 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    By giant do you mean the golf ball size ones?  There are some that get baseball size but they are plant eaters.  The golf ball size ones are not.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 10:29 PM
                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                    terri, how much do you sell your giant snails for? i'm interested in obtaining some.
                                                                                                    amalthea


                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4326 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    no, i meant the baseball sized ones.
                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                    On Aug 16, 2004, at 11:36 AM, bryants4god wrote:

                                                                                                    > By giant do you mean the golf ball size ones?  There are some that get
                                                                                                    > baseball size but they are plant eaters.  The golf ball size ones are
                                                                                                    > not.
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > <image.tiff> 
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    > From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 10:29 PM
                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself
                                                                                                    > /Terri
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > terri, how much do you sell your giant snails for? i'm interested in
                                                                                                    > obtaining some.
                                                                                                    > amalthea
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >         
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                    > <yhoo0504_testa_300250a052604.gif>
                                                                                                    > <l.gif>
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                                                                    > Service.
                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                    Adornments....
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4327 From: bryants4god Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    I don't sell the base ball size ones.  I own several but they are illegal to sell in Texas.  I bought mine in Texas though!  Anyway I know some people that have some for sale.  Can I give them your email address or do you want theirs.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:22 AM
                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                    no, i meant the baseball sized ones.
                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                    On Aug 16, 2004, at 11:36 AM, bryants4god wrote:

                                                                                                    By giant do you mean the golf ball size ones?  There are some that get baseball size but they are plant eaters.  The golf ball size ones are not.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4328 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    i'd love it if you could give them my address, i'm in new york, so it
                                                                                                    should be ok!
                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                    On Aug 16, 2004, at 12:41 PM, bryants4god wrote:

                                                                                                    > I don't sell the base ball size ones.  I own several but they are
                                                                                                    > illegal to sell in Texas.  I bought mine in Texas though!  Anyway I
                                                                                                    > know some people that have some for sale.  Can I give them your email
                                                                                                    > address or do you want theirs.
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > <image.tiff> 
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    > From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                    > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:22 AM
                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself
                                                                                                    > /Terri
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > no, i meant the baseball sized ones.
                                                                                                    > amalthea
                                                                                                    > On Aug 16, 2004, at 11:36 AM, bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > By giant do you mean the golf ball size ones?  There are some that get
                                                                                                    > baseball size but they are plant eaters.  The golf ball size ones are
                                                                                                    > not.
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >         
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                    > <yhoo0504_testb_300250a052604.gif>
                                                                                                    > <l.gif>
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                    > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                                                                    > Service.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                    Adornments....
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4329 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: New arrival
                                                                                                    Endler's fry are very tiny and if you don't have your filter intake covered
                                                                                                    there's a good chance others may have gotten sucked in. Also, like other
                                                                                                    livebearers the size of Endler's drops increases with age.


                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                    From: "iloveguppies" <CK147@...>


                                                                                                    > Hey everyone, I have a new fish while enjoying watching my fish I
                                                                                                    > found a baby endler, just one, so I'm not sure if the others got
                                                                                                    > sucked up in the filter or if they only had one, since no one looked
                                                                                                    > fat enough to have any babies.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4330 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: New arrival
                                                                                                    Yeah, when I first got the endlers I have now they where tiny so I put
                                                                                                    a nylon on the filter but took it off as they grew. now I need to find
                                                                                                    it and put it back on. there are 2 other females who look pregnant all
                                                                                                    the sudden. yeah I know they have more babies the bigger and older
                                                                                                    they get, mine are only a few months or so old.

                                                                                                    > Endler's fry are very tiny and if you don't have your filter intake
                                                                                                    covered
                                                                                                    > there's a good chance others may have gotten sucked in. Also, like other
                                                                                                    > livebearers the size of Endler's drops increases with age.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4331 From: jd7152 Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Guess
                                                                                                    Guess no one wanted to help me with my question? which was from
                                                                                                    several days ago....
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4332 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                    hi,

                                                                                                    What was the question / problem ?

                                                                                                    ..SuNnY !

                                                                                                    --- jd7152 <garagedude55@...> wrote:

                                                                                                    > Guess no one wanted to help me with my question?
                                                                                                    > which was from
                                                                                                    > several days ago....
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                    =====




                                                                                                    got Fish? ~ do you Yahoo!? ~ I've got a group for you!

                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium

                                                                                                    stop by and see ~ membership is free!







                                                                                                    __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4333 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                    In a message dated 8/16/2004 9:39:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, garagedude55@... writes:

                                                                                                    Guess no one wanted to help me with my question? which was from
                                                                                                    several days ago....


                                                                                                    Some people check their email more infrequently than others. Also, it is possible that nobody knew an answer for you.

                                                                                                    Since I just got done wading through over 700 emails over the past few days (thanks to Hurricane Charley I fell behind) perhaps you could refresh us with what your question was?

                                                                                                    Also, sometimes Yahoo! delays email messages, sometimes by several days.

                                                                                                    Erin
                                                                                                    CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                    ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                    my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4334 From: joequality1980 Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: New arrival
                                                                                                    do Endlers have to live in warm water (76~82 F) or are they fine in
                                                                                                    room temp? ( b/c I thought I saw a LFS with them w/o a heater)
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4335 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: New arrival
                                                                                                    From what i know they are warm water fish, but it's been really hot
                                                                                                    here so they have been just on room temp with out a heater on. But
                                                                                                    still staying about 78-79. were they endlers or pretty feeder guppys.
                                                                                                    I have those as well but in a seperate tank. They are so pretty aswell
                                                                                                    I came home with 7 of them the other day. and like them as much as the
                                                                                                    endlers.


                                                                                                    > do Endlers have to live in warm water (76~82 F) or are they fine in
                                                                                                    > room temp? ( b/c I thought I saw a LFS with them w/o a heater)
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4336 From: Xandros Desktop OS User Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
                                                                                                    Steve Szabo wrote:

                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > <<Note to Joe G:
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I did a Google on "Purganic Mineral Powder" to find an alternate spelling,
                                                                                                    > "Pureganic Mineral Powder", which is what I take you to mean. >>


                                                                                                    Actually,yes. Sorry 'bout the mis-spelling.

                                                                                                    > <<Nowhere did I
                                                                                                    > find a listing of ingredients that would tell me whether it would be
                                                                                                    > safe to
                                                                                                    > use in an aquarium or not. Since the only references I found were
                                                                                                    > "alternative health" sites, that raised my suspicions even more, as
                                                                                                    > well as
                                                                                                    > the descriptions I found on these sites.>>


                                                                                                    I'm surprised that alternative health sites would raise suspicions. It
                                                                                                    seem to me that the "orthodox" methods of fish keeping discussed on
                                                                                                    this site would tend to support rather than repudiate alternative health
                                                                                                    approaches. If a fish is lethargic, ill or otherwise in bad health, one
                                                                                                    of the first lines of inquiry a competent fish keeper on this list would
                                                                                                    be, "What is your fishes diet? Is the diet appropriate for this
                                                                                                    particular fish? Is he overfed? " This would be an alternative/natural
                                                                                                    approach. If I was feeling ill or otherwise having health issues, the
                                                                                                    first thing an MD would likely do is write me a prescription. If the
                                                                                                    first failed to get a result, he'd probably try other medicines. Then
                                                                                                    other meds to counteract the side effects of the first meds. (I've been
                                                                                                    there.) If a fish keeper started with the approach of first dosing the
                                                                                                    tank with different medications, then adding other medicines to try to
                                                                                                    correct the problems caused by the first medicines (rather than the
                                                                                                    "alternative" methods such as diet/nutrition, water changes, etc.), I'm
                                                                                                    sure we'd all consider such a person to be dangerously incompetent. When
                                                                                                    it comes to ourselves, however, we first start dosing with chemicals and
                                                                                                    most likely never even consider diet and other lifestyle changes. How
                                                                                                    ironic!

                                                                                                    > <<Monatomic in the descriptions refer
                                                                                                    > to elements that can exist as a single atom. Mercury is a monatomic
                                                                                                    > element.
                                                                                                    > I'm not sure I'd purposely put mercury in my body.>>

                                                                                                    Question: What is the difference between a beneficial medicine and a
                                                                                                    deadly poison?
                                                                                                    Answer: The dosage.

                                                                                                    In my 55-gal tank, I add about a pinch every six weeks or so. The tank
                                                                                                    has daily one-gallon water changes and is topped off with store-bought
                                                                                                    distilled water to compensate for evaporation. My hunch is that the
                                                                                                    plants and algae are likely taking up most of the added mineral content.
                                                                                                    One of the more modern theories of alternative health is that the reason
                                                                                                    that there's so much degenerative disease today is because modern
                                                                                                    agricultural methods strip the soil of trace elements. We're consuming
                                                                                                    food, but it no longer has the same nutritional content of food
                                                                                                    centuries ago. Some natural gardeners supplement the ground with trace
                                                                                                    elements to try to grow plants that have incorporated these elements
                                                                                                    into their structure. It seemed to make sense to me that the omnivorous
                                                                                                    fish I keep might benefit from the presence of trace elements in the
                                                                                                    plants and algae in the tank.

                                                                                                    Sorry to be a heretic.


                                                                                                    -Joe G.


                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4337 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: fluoride
                                                                                                    Hello and thanks for talking with me about the RO water setup.  I do have another question and was wondering how to remove fluoride from my tap water?  And is there a test kit for it?
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Todd
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4338 From: paul helms Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: fluoride
                                                                                                    an ro or di unit will do it
                                                                                                    --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                    > Hello and thanks for talking with me about the RO
                                                                                                    > water setup. I do have another question and was
                                                                                                    > wondering how to remove fluoride from my tap water?
                                                                                                    > And is there a test kit for it?
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Todd





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                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4339 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    terri if i have little spots of algae on the tank walls would one of your snails help with that... shannon
                                                                                                    he breed of snail I have, pomacea bridgesii is fine with your zebra loach.  They are to large for it to eat in one bite so they should be safe.  There shells are also much thicker.  I have searched the data base of the snail forum I am on and every post about zebra loaches says they are fine with brig snails.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    I would get one of these myself to get rid of pest snails but I am afraid the loach would be able to eat the baby snails that hatch into tanks sometimes when I don't find the clutch in time.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4340 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    so then you have some colored ones that will eat algea and not my plants.. shannon:
                                                                                                    giant do you mean the golf ball size ones?  There are some that get baseball size but they are plant eaters.  The golf ball size ones are not.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4341 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    so terri is it illegal to get the kind you have to that size or is that a different kind of snails that get to the baseball size.. shannon
                                                                                                    I don't sell the base ball size ones.  I own several but they are illegal to sell in Texas.  I bought mine in Texas though!  Anyway I know some people that have some for sale.  Can I give them your email address or do you want theirs.
                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4342 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/16/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                    ive had that happen to me several times.. lots of ppl know alot on here and do help a lot i wont take that a way but i have had lots of personal qustions go unaswered.. i think sometimes the person or ppl that might know about a paticular subject are busy... mabye try reposting it... im sure it wasnt intential.. shannon
                                                                                                    Guess no one wanted to help me with my question? which was from
                                                                                                    several days ago....
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4343 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: R/O & Purganic
                                                                                                    Joe G.,

                                                                                                    > Actually, yes. Sorry 'bout the mis-spelling.
                                                                                                    OK, so we are talking about the same thing then. I just needed to make sure.

                                                                                                    > I'm surprised that alternative health sites would raise suspicions. It
                                                                                                    seem to me that the "orthodox" methods of fish keeping discussed on
                                                                                                    this site would tend to support rather than repudiate alternative health
                                                                                                    approaches. If a fish is lethargic, ill or otherwise in bad health, one
                                                                                                    of the first lines of inquiry a competent fish keeper on this list would
                                                                                                    be, "What is your fishes diet? Is the diet appropriate for this
                                                                                                    particular fish? Is he overfed? " This would be an alternative/natural
                                                                                                    approach. If I was feeling ill or otherwise having health issues, the
                                                                                                    first thing an MD would likely do is write me a prescription. If the
                                                                                                    first failed to get a result, he'd probably try other medicines. Then
                                                                                                    other meds to counteract the side effects of the first meds. (I've been
                                                                                                    there.) If a fish keeper started with the approach of first dosing the
                                                                                                    tank with different medications, then adding other medicines to try to
                                                                                                    correct the problems caused by the first medicines (rather than the
                                                                                                    "alternative" methods such as diet/nutrition, water changes, etc.), I'm
                                                                                                    sure we'd all consider such a person to be dangerously incompetent. When
                                                                                                    it comes to ourselves, however, we first start dosing with chemicals and
                                                                                                    most likely never even consider diet and other lifestyle changes. How
                                                                                                    ironic!

                                                                                                    Before I add something to my tank, I want to know what is in it, or see a
                                                                                                    body of evidence that it will not harm what the tank contains. A failure to
                                                                                                    list the ingredients, outside of the whatever kind of water was mentioned to
                                                                                                    hold the stuff in suspension, perks up my mental antennas.

                                                                                                    If a fish, or a number of fish are showing signs that something is not right
                                                                                                    with them, the first thing to check is your water parameters. The most
                                                                                                    susceptible fish will show signs of illness first. Others will surely
                                                                                                    follow. If the water parameters are off, then one must do something to
                                                                                                    correct them. That would first involve a water change, and, perhaps daily
                                                                                                    water changes, as well as determining why the water parameters have changed.
                                                                                                    When that has been done, and observations of the fish involved are done,
                                                                                                    then, and only then will I take other measures. The first would be to
                                                                                                    determine exactly what is the problem with the fish. If I can do that, and I
                                                                                                    can get the compound(s) needed to restore the fish, I will do that, in a
                                                                                                    quarantine environment. For the most part, fish problems are caused by
                                                                                                    stress on the fish. remove the source of that stress, and you are more
                                                                                                    likely to see a healthy fish without resorting to magic cures or
                                                                                                    prophylactics. I'll be covering this more in depths as my series of e-mails
                                                                                                    continues--"Starting an Aquarium".

                                                                                                    > Question: What is the difference between a beneficial medicine and a
                                                                                                    deadly poison?
                                                                                                    Answer: The dosage.

                                                                                                    OK, so if I start eating very small amounts of a radioactive material, I
                                                                                                    will continue along in good health? I think not. Eventually the radiation
                                                                                                    will get me, in one form or another. However, it is true that small does of
                                                                                                    SOME poisons will cause my body to pick up an immunity to that poison.

                                                                                                    \\Steve//
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4344 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                    Garage: I, for one, did not receive any emails from you from this group; I don't know if anyone else did. As such, I went up to our group site and checked all the messages twice, going back for the past week to August 9th and do not see any messages posted by you. It appears possible that perhaps for some reason that your message did not go through and was never posted. Try it again so that we may respond. Ray
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4345 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    Does that mean that pomacea bridgesii is illegal to HAVE in Texas,
                                                                                                    or just to buy???
                                                                                                    I just got two clutches in the mail.....they havent hatched yet.
                                                                                                    Guess I wont be breeding them if they are illegal. *grin*

                                                                                                    Joy

                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                    <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                    > The breed of snail I have, pomacea bridgesii is fine with your
                                                                                                    zebra loach.
                                                                                                    > They are to large for it to eat in one bite so they should be
                                                                                                    safe. There
                                                                                                    > shells are also much thicker. I have searched the data base of
                                                                                                    the snail
                                                                                                    > forum I am on and every post about zebra loaches says they are
                                                                                                    fine with
                                                                                                    > brig snails.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > I would get one of these myself to get rid of pest snails but I am
                                                                                                    afraid
                                                                                                    > the loach would be able to eat the baby snails that hatch into
                                                                                                    tanks
                                                                                                    > sometimes when I don't find the clutch in time.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                    > From: agentscullyeyore@a... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@a...]
                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 10:44 PM
                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to
                                                                                                    yourself /Terri
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > you mean the zebra loaches are fine with your snails not my pest
                                                                                                    snails..
                                                                                                    > cuase mine has eaten all my pest snails gone... shannon
                                                                                                    > Actually zebra loaches are fine with snails, it's the clown
                                                                                                    loaches you
                                                                                                    > have to watch out for, they'll eat right through the shell. They
                                                                                                    get
                                                                                                    > golfball size at about 6-8 months old.
                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4346 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Where did they go - I found it! :)
                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                          Have any other fish died since then?  If a fish dies, a pleco would probably be happy to dispose of it.  Other fish will join in, too.  By perfect, is ammonia and nitrite at 0?  I thought maybe there was an ammonia or nitrite spike, but if they are at 0 this is a real mystery.  You are right, fish don't die for no reason.  Is there any chance a spray chemical in the air might have gotten into the tank?  I really don't have any ideas.  I guess others might have been equally unsure and that is why nobody responded.  Sorry I didn't find this sooner, and sorry you lost your fish. :(
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      came home from work, 1 fish sucked on to strainer, one lying on
                                                                                                      bottom inbetween two rocks, other 5 fish gone, except for the 3-4 in
                                                                                                      pleco. They couldn't have jumped out, not in filter. water is
                                                                                                      perfect, didn't just die for no reason, all in the same day??? , any
                                                                                                      one ever had a pleco eat there other fish?? Only thing I can
                                                                                                      figure...fish were 5 fancy tail guppys and 2 tetras.

                                                                                                      any ideas??
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4347 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: New arrival
                                                                                                      Endler's are definitely warm water fish, they can live in temps of 75°- 86°
                                                                                                      but generally prefer a tank just under 80° While able to tolerate warmer
                                                                                                      water it causes them to be less active.


                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      From: "joequality1980" <crazy.joe.walcek@...>

                                                                                                      > do Endlers have to live in warm water (76~82 F) or are they fine in
                                                                                                      > room temp? ( b/c I thought I saw a LFS with them w/o a heater)
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4348 From: bryants4god Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                      pomacea bridgesii are legal, the larger ones --pomacea canaliculata --are the ones that are illegal in Texas.  :)
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                      From: Happy Happy Joy Joy [mailto:joy_of_simon_haza@...]
                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:09 AM
                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                      Does that mean that pomacea bridgesii is illegal to HAVE in Texas,
                                                                                                      or just to buy???
                                                                                                      I just got two clutches in the mail.....they havent hatched yet. 
                                                                                                      Guess I wont be breeding them if they are illegal.  *grin*

                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4349 From: simonsmommy0117@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: african cichlids
                                                                                                      I just recently got two 3 year old African chiclids. One is orange, the other is blue with stripes. I have them in a large tank, I was wondering if I could put anything in there with them? I was thinking a crayfish, but i read crayfish like colder water ... thanks all
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4350 From: bryants4god Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                      Shannon I just combined your emails into one.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      The ones I have are legal.  This type of snail is often sold as an algae eater, however they really only eat it as babies.  Once they are a few months old they won't eat it unless there is no other food source.  They need other foods daily.  The larger snails pomacea canaliculata (or cana's) eat algae.  If you want those I can put you in contact with someone who can sell to you from another state where they are legal.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                      From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 1:12 AM
                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                      so terri is it illegal to get the kind you have to that size or is that a different kind of snails that get to the baseball size.. shannon
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4351 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: african cichlids
                                                                                                      Simons: The African cichlids you briefly describe sound like species of Mbuna of which the males can get quite aggressive as they are territorial. If you have males, one will dominate the other and with no other Mbunas in the tank to spread his aggression on, the other fish is going to take all the brunt of it. You stated a large tank but didn't give a size; in general, and especially for the more aggressive species, a minumum 36" long tank is preferable, with a minumum of at least 7 individuals for the most "peaceful" coexistance. Lots of rockwork is also advised. As for adding crayfish -- yes, most of them prefer cooler water - 40 - 75 o F., depending upon species. You might try adding a Rift Lake catfish instead such as Synodontis multipuntata which thrives in the same slightly warmer hard and alkaline water. Ray
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4352 From: jd7152 Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Guess
                                                                                                      Sorry, guess it was my bad, anyway, here is my question..


                                                                                                      came home from work, 1 fish sucked on to strainer, one lying on
                                                                                                      bottom inbetween two rocks, other 5 fish gone, except for the 3-4 in
                                                                                                      pleco. They couldn't have jumped out, not in filter. water is
                                                                                                      perfect, didn't just die for no reason, all in the same day??? , any
                                                                                                      one ever had a pleco eat there other fish?? Only thing I can
                                                                                                      figure...fish were 5 fancy tail guppys and 2 tetras.

                                                                                                      FYI. Tank is 3 years old, always water changes, good filter, 2 tetras
                                                                                                      where in there for 2 years...

                                                                                                      UPDATE:
                                                                                                      Pleco dead next day, looked like he either exploded from the inside
                                                                                                      or a few small snails got him. Really weird. Now that my tanks empty
                                                                                                      I'll switch to angels or something peaceful..

                                                                                                      thanks
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4353 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: fluoride
                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/17/2004 12:46:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, captainkidd@... writes:

                                                                                                      was wondering how to remove fluoride from my tap water?  And is there a test kit for it?

                                                                                                      I thought fluoride added to tap water was a good thing. Well, at least for humans and their teeth.

                                                                                                      Does Fluoride have any effect on fish?? I never thought about it, honestly, and didn't know I was supposed to remove it from my water for my fish friends.

                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                      CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                      ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                      my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4354 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: fluoride
                                                                                                      I have been wondering the same thing.  The only info I can find about it is a water filter. I've seen nothing else about it.  Any help on this would be good.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Robb
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 7:59 PM
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] fluoride

                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/17/2004 12:46:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, captainkidd@... writes:

                                                                                                      was wondering how to remove fluoride from my tap water?  And is there a test kit for it?


                                                                                                      I thought fluoride added to tap water was a good thing. Well, at least for humans and their teeth.

                                                                                                      Does Fluoride have any effect on fish?? I never thought about it, honestly, and didn't know I was supposed to remove it from my water for my fish friends.

                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                      CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                      ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                      my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/



                                                                                                              



                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4355 From: devileye72 Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Plant issues...
                                                                                                      Ok, I've done alot of reading on how to have an attractive planted
                                                                                                      aquarium, but I'm having lots of problems. My plants get lots of new
                                                                                                      growth, but are constantly turning yellow. It can't be a CO2 issue,
                                                                                                      or they wouldn't be growing at all, right?

                                                                                                      I suspected low Iron, but I put in iron enriched fertilizers to no
                                                                                                      avail.

                                                                                                      I also thought that my high dH might have something to do with it,
                                                                                                      but even after reducing it by 50%, the plants are still turning
                                                                                                      yellow.

                                                                                                      My PH hovers right at 6.8, which I wouldn't think would be a problem.

                                                                                                      I've got full spectrum daylight bulbs, so light shouldn't be an issue
                                                                                                      either.

                                                                                                      I've even added laterite to the gravel.

                                                                                                      Any thoughts on what else I might try?

                                                                                                      -Sam
                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4356 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                      I don't know anything about snails, but, why are they illegal. I have chinese algae eaters and I have problems with them growing too big, I always end up trading them in for smaller ones. Do snails eat algae and would it be safe to put them in with chiclids?
                                                                                                      thanks,
                                                                                                      Dorothy
                                                                                                      bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      pomacea bridgesii are legal, the larger ones --pomacea canaliculata --are the ones that are illegal in Texas.  :)
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                      From: Happy Happy Joy Joy [mailto:joy_of_simon_haza@...]
                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:09 AM
                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                      Does that mean that pomacea bridgesii is illegal to HAVE in Texas,
                                                                                                      or just to buy???
                                                                                                      I just got two clutches in the mail.....they havent hatched yet. 
                                                                                                      Guess I wont be breeding them if they are illegal.  *grin*

                                                                                                      Joy



                                                                                                              




                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                      Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4357 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: New arrival
                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/17/2004 11:24:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dtmergl@... writes:

                                                                                                      do Endlers have to live in warm water (76~82 F) or are they fine in
                                                                                                      >room temp? ( b/c I thought I saw a LFS with them w/o a heater)


                                                                                                      Depending on what the room temperature was, the water temp might have already been well in that range.

                                                                                                      I have a tank that sits next to a wall, off to one side of a window, and the only time I have to run the heater at all is in the winter time, and even then I don't have to run it constantly. Room temperature keeps my tank at 80 degrees F, with air conditioner in my house going.

                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                      CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                      ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                      my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4358 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                            How much light do you have?  What type of plants are they?  Maybe you are trying too hard? :) My plants were turning yellow sometimes until I started adding flourish excel to the tank every few days (even though it says every day on the bottle, that would be too expensive).  The plants are growing faster and greener, and they are under less than 1 watt per gallon.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4359 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                              I would sterilize everything with a small amount of plain bleach.  It sounds like some type of disease got in there and took them all out.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4360 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                Snails are kind of like fish, if they get into local waters they can destroy plant life.  And it is probably easier for a person to throw a snail out in the lake.  It's just a snail, how much damage can it do.  300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 snails later you find out. :)  For a better algae eater, look for ottos, otocinclus (not sure how to spell that).  If you like snails, it seems people are making snail-only tanks these days. :)
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                            I don't know anything about snails, but, why are they illegal. I have chinese algae eaters and I have problems with them growing too big, I always end up trading them in for smaller ones. Do snails eat algae and would it be safe to put them in with chiclids?
                                                                                                            thanks,
                                                                                                            Dorothy
                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4361 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: New arrival
                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                   The lfs may keep the whole store at the temperature for the tanks, that way they don't have to run heaters.  People with fish rooms do that to save tons of money. :)
                                                                                                               
                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                              do Endlers have to live in warm water (76~82 F) or are they fine in
                                                                                                              >room temp? ( b/c I thought I saw a LFS with them w/o a heater)
                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4362 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                              Patrick,
                                                                                                              Thanks so much, you are always so helpful. I will try to find an otto, as I am not really fond of snails. Just trying to figure out what to get to keep algae down other than chinese algae eaters.
                                                                                                              thanks again,
                                                                                                              Dorothy

                                                                                                              Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                  Snails are kind of like fish, if they get into local waters they can destroy plant life.  And it is probably easier for a person to throw a snail out in the lake.  It's just a snail, how much damage can it do.  300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 snails later you find out. :)  For a better algae eater, look for ottos, otocinclus (not sure how to spell that).  If you like snails, it seems people are making snail-only tanks these days. :)
                                                                                                               
                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                              I don't know anything about snails, but, why are they illegal. I have chinese algae eaters and I have problems with them growing too big, I always end up trading them in for smaller ones. Do snails eat algae and would it be safe to put them in with chiclids?
                                                                                                              thanks,
                                                                                                              Dorothy


                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                              Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4363 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                              thanks terri i know i get a bit out of control with questions sometimes.. let me do some thinking about if i want to add the pomacea canaliculata or not.. one question is that are they colorful lik eyours.. shannon
                                                                                                              Shannon I just combined your emails into one.
                                                                                                               
                                                                                                              The ones I have are legal.  This type of snail is often sold as an algae eater, however they really only eat it as babies.  Once they are a few months old they won't eat it unless there is no other food source.  They need other foods daily.  The larger snails pomacea canaliculata (or cana's) eat algae.  If you want those I can put you in contact with someone who can sell to you from another state where they are legal.
                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4364 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                              i have a 55 gallon tank that had a decent covering of algae and i can
                                                                                                              now barely support 2 ottos! don't get only one, or they get lonely, but
                                                                                                              don't get too many, because they eat algae ALL day and they'll starve.
                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                              On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:03 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:

                                                                                                              > Patrick,
                                                                                                              > Thanks so much, you are always so helpful. I will try to find an otto,
                                                                                                              > as I am not really fond of snails. Just trying to figure out what to
                                                                                                              > get to keep algae down other than chinese algae eaters.
                                                                                                              > thanks again,
                                                                                                              > Dorothy
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >     Snails are kind of like fish, if they get into local waters they
                                                                                                              > can destroy plant life.  And it is probably easier for a person to
                                                                                                              > throw a snail out in the lake.  It's just a snail, how much damage can
                                                                                                              > it do.  300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 snails later you
                                                                                                              > find out. :)  For a better algae eater, look for ottos, otocinclus
                                                                                                              > (not sure how to spell that).  If you like snails, it seems people are
                                                                                                              > making snail-only tanks these days. :)
                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                              > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                              > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                              > I don't know anything about snails, but, why are they illegal. I have
                                                                                                              > chinese algae eaters and I have problems with them growing too big, I
                                                                                                              > always end up trading them in for smaller ones. Do snails eat algae
                                                                                                              > and would it be safe to put them in with chiclids?
                                                                                                              > thanks,
                                                                                                              > Dorothy
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > <image.tiff>
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                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4365 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                              thanks, amalthea,
                                                                                                              I hope I can find some, there are only 2 stores that sell fish within 35 miles. I will be sure to buy 2, I like happy fish. If thelfs doesn't have any I will see if he can order me 2. Is there another name for them, or are they just called ottos? The reason I am asking is if I have to have the lfs order them.
                                                                                                              thanks again,
                                                                                                              dorothy

                                                                                                              amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                              i have a 55 gallon tank that had a decent covering of algae and i can
                                                                                                              now barely support 2 ottos! don't get only one, or they get lonely, but
                                                                                                              don't get too many, because they eat algae ALL day and they'll starve.
                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                              On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:03 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:

                                                                                                              > Patrick,
                                                                                                              > Thanks so much, you are always so helpful. I will try to find an otto,
                                                                                                              > as I am not really fond of snails. Just trying to figure out what to
                                                                                                              > get to keep algae down other than chinese algae eaters.
                                                                                                              > thanks again,
                                                                                                              > Dorothy
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > Patrick wrote:
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >     Snails are kind of like fish, if they get into local waters they
                                                                                                              > can destroy plant life.  And it is probably easier for a person to
                                                                                                              > throw a snail out in the lake.  It's just a snail, how much damage can
                                                                                                              > it do.  300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 snails later you
                                                                                                              > find out. :)  For a better algae eater, look for ottos, otocinclus
                                                                                                              > (not sure how to spell that).  If you like snails, it seems people are
                                                                                                              > making snail-only tanks these days. :)
                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                              > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                              > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                              > I don't know anything about snails, but, why are they illegal. I have
                                                                                                              > chinese algae eaters and I have problems with them growing too big, I
                                                                                                              > always end up trading them in for smaller ones. Do snails eat algae
                                                                                                              > and would it be safe to put them in with chiclids?
                                                                                                              > thanks,
                                                                                                              > Dorothy
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >         
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4366 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: OT - SORT OF
                                                                                                              I have yahoo messenger and a yahoo mailbox. I did the security update.
                                                                                                              dorothy

                                                                                                              DB1RDMAN@... wrote:
                                                                                                              The past few days, when I sign on, I get a message that "An update to Yahoo security is available.............." And asking me if I want to download it.

                                                                                                              Anyone know if this is legit.  I don't understand why Yahoo would have to download something into my computer for security purposes.

                                                                                                              Thank you.


                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4367 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                              they do have a full name, but i can't recall what it is, if you tell
                                                                                                              them ottos and describe them, they'll know it!
                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                              On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:23 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:

                                                                                                              > thanks, amalthea,
                                                                                                              > I hope I can find some, there are only 2 stores that sell fish within
                                                                                                              > 35 miles. I will be sure to buy 2, I like happy fish. If thelfs
                                                                                                              > doesn't have any I will see if he can order me 2. Is there another
                                                                                                              > name for them, or are they just called ottos? The reason I am asking
                                                                                                              > is if I have to have the lfs order them.
                                                                                                              > thanks again,
                                                                                                              > dorothy
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                              > i have a 55 gallon tank that had a decent covering of algae and i can
                                                                                                              > now barely support 2 ottos! don't get only one, or they get lonely,
                                                                                                              > but
                                                                                                              > don't get too many, because they eat algae ALL day and they'll starve.
                                                                                                              > amalthea
                                                                                                              > On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:03 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > > Patrick,
                                                                                                              > > Thanks so much, you are always so helpful. I will try to find an
                                                                                                              > otto,
                                                                                                              > > as I am not really fond of snails. Just trying to figure out what to
                                                                                                              > > get to keep algae down other than chinese algae eaters.
                                                                                                              > > thanks again,
                                                                                                              > > Dorothy
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > Patrick wrote:
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >     Snails are kind of like fish, if they get into local waters they
                                                                                                              > > can destroy plant life.  And it is probably easier for a person to
                                                                                                              > > throw a snail out in the lake.  It's just a snail, how much damage
                                                                                                              > can
                                                                                                              > > it do.  300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 snails later you
                                                                                                              > > find out. :)  For a better algae eater, look for ottos, otocinclus
                                                                                                              > > (not sure how to spell that).  If you like snails, it seems people
                                                                                                              > are
                                                                                                              > > making snail-only tanks these days. :)
                                                                                                              > >  
                                                                                                              > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                              > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                              > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                              > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                              > juli
                                                                                                              > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                              > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                              > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                              > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                              > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                              > filter. 
                                                                                                              > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                              > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                              > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                              > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                              > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                              > sponge
                                                                                                              > > filter.
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                              > > I don't know anything about snails, but, why are they illegal. I have
                                                                                                              > > chinese algae eaters and I have problems with them growing too big,
                                                                                                              > I
                                                                                                              > > always end up trading them in for smaller ones. Do snails eat algae
                                                                                                              > > and would it be safe to put them in with chiclids?
                                                                                                              > > thanks,
                                                                                                              > > Dorothy
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >         
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                              > > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >         
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                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                              > > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                              > >  
                                                                                                              > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                              > >  
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                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4368 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                I have 5, and they like squash.  I give them algae chips and shrimp pellets (cories join them on those).  They are much more like cories than plecos.  Out all day looking for algae to eat, or even food that makes it to the bottom.  One seems to like to lay on the back of the pleco. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                i have a 55 gallon tank that had a decent covering of algae and i can
                                                                                                                now barely support 2 ottos! don't get only one, or they get lonely, but
                                                                                                                don't get too many, because they eat algae ALL day and they'll starve.
                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4369 From: Patrick Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                  I have 4, not five.  That is what happens when I can't see where my hands are and I miss the key. 
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  I have 5, and they like squash.  I give them algae chips and shrimp pellets (cories join them on those).  They are much more like cories than plecos.  Out all day looking for algae to eat, or even food that makes it to the bottom.  One seems to like to lay on the back of the pleco. 
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4370 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                                  Subject: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel
                                                                                                                  what is flourish excel and where do i get it.. maby ei need that too mine turn yellow sometimes.. what i have noticed is i need the plants that come in thier own root system and can be planted in a bundle not the ones that have individual stems and you can plant with a lead weight or not.. those my fish tear up cuase they never stay planted.. however i do know i need more gravel but since that isnt happeneing i just make do with seeing some roots... but i do have little hairs like growing up from my gravel how come does anyone know what those hair like things are.. shanon
                                                                                                                      How much light do you have?  What type of plants are they?  Maybe you are trying too hard? :) My plants were turning yellow sometimes until I started adding flourish excel to the tank every few days (even though it says every day on the bottle, that would be too expensive).  The plants are growing faster and greener, and they are under less than 1 watt per gallon.
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4371 From: paul helms Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel
                                                                                                                  could be hair algae, which is a great natural filter,
                                                                                                                  or plant roots
                                                                                                                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                  > what is flourish excel and where do i get it.. maby
                                                                                                                  > ei need that too mine
                                                                                                                  > turn yellow sometimes.. what i have noticed is i
                                                                                                                  > need the plants that come in
                                                                                                                  > thier own root system and can be planted in a bundle
                                                                                                                  > not the ones that have
                                                                                                                  > individual stems and you can plant with a lead
                                                                                                                  > weight or not.. those my fish tear
                                                                                                                  > up cuase they never stay planted.. however i do know
                                                                                                                  > i need more gravel but
                                                                                                                  > since that isnt happeneing i just make do with
                                                                                                                  > seeing some roots... but i do have
                                                                                                                  > little hairs like growing up from my gravel how come
                                                                                                                  > does anyone know what
                                                                                                                  > those hair like things are.. shanon
                                                                                                                  > How much light do you have? What type of plants
                                                                                                                  > are they? Maybe you are
                                                                                                                  > trying too hard? :) My plants were turning yellow
                                                                                                                  > sometimes until I started
                                                                                                                  > adding flourish excel to the tank every few days
                                                                                                                  > (even though it says every day
                                                                                                                  > on the bottle, that would be too expensive). The
                                                                                                                  > plants are growing faster
                                                                                                                  > and greener, and they are under less than 1 watt per
                                                                                                                  > gallon.
                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4372 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/17/2004
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                  well actually i was thinking it might be roots but i just dont see how i mean i havent had the plants that long maybe like 5 months  i dont know they are like beige collored and everywhere not in just one area..  mabye it is algae i wonder how i can know for sure.. shannon
                                                                                                                  could be hair algae, which is a great natural filter,
                                                                                                                  or plant roots
                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4373 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel

                                                                                                                  Shannon,

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Flourish excel is an organic supplement of CO2. It provides the plants with an intermediate form of carbon that can be utilized in photosynthesis and also has a benefit of chelating trace elements like iron. It is a good product by seachem and gives wonderful results when accompanied by a bit of CO2 addition.. nevertheless it is a good product on its own as well.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                  Sent: 18 August 2004 07:01
                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  what is flourish excel and where do i get it.. maby ei need that too mine turn yellow sometimes.. what i have noticed is i need the plants that come in thier own root system and can be planted in a bundle not the ones that have individual stems and you can plant with a lead weight or not.. those my fish tear up cuase they never stay planted.. however i do know i need more gravel but since that isnt happeneing i just make do with seeing some roots... but i do have little hairs like growing up from my gravel how come does anyone know what those hair like things are.. shanon

                                                                                                                      How much light do you have?  What type of plants are they?  Maybe you are trying too hard? :) My plants were turning yellow sometimes until I started adding flourish excel to the tank every few days (even though it says every day on the bottle, that would be too expensive).  The plants are growing faster and greener, and they are under less than 1 watt per gallon.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Patrick N.



                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4374 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel

                                                                                                                  Is the hair from the gravel only from the gravel and not from stuff like ornaments or plant leaves? What colour are they? Green/black/green-black/gray? There are a number of algae that can fit this description like black brush algae, beard algae, threat algae, hair algae etc.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                  Sent: 18 August 2004 07:01
                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] : Plant issues...and also hairs growing up from gravel

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  what is flourish excel and where do i get it.. maby ei need that too mine turn yellow sometimes.. what i have noticed is i need the plants that come in thier own root system and can be planted in a bundle not the ones that have individual stems and you can plant with a lead weight or not.. those my fish tear up cuase they never stay planted.. however i do know i need more gravel but since that isnt happeneing i just make do with seeing some roots... but i do have little hairs like growing up from my gravel how come does anyone know what those hair like things are.. shanon

                                                                                                                      How much light do you have?  What type of plants are they?  Maybe you are trying too hard? :) My plants were turning yellow sometimes until I started adding flourish excel to the tank every few days (even though it says every day on the bottle, that would be too expensive).  The plants are growing faster and greener, and they are under less than 1 watt per gallon.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Patrick N.



                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4375 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                  Attachments :

                                                                                                                    I Agree with Patrick. You may be trying too hard for it. How old is your tank? If you added latarite very recently, it means you stripped the entire tank apart and started like refresh. This means that the substrate may not hold enough nutrients for the plants to thrive except iron from latarite.

                                                                                                                    Can you post all the details of your tank? Having a lush planted tank is not as difficult as it sounds. I have had lush plant growth in very very hard water (dH 25) and that too with low-moderate light and no CO2… ofcourse adding more light and CO2 will make things a bit unpredictable but never as bad.

                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                    From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                    Sent: 18 August 2004 04:50
                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Plant issues...

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                        How much light do you have?  What type of plants are they?  Maybe you are trying too hard? :) My plants were turning yellow sometimes until I started adding flourish excel to the tank every few days (even though it says every day on the bottle, that would be too expensive).  The plants are growing faster and greener, and they are under less than 1 watt per gallon.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Patrick N.

                                                                                                                    Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  

                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!

                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.

                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus

                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                     



                                                                                                                            




                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4376 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                    well i have been diong some reserach in some plant books i bought and i was thinking that it might help.. is that something you think i can get at petsmart .. also to add the stands are beige and all over the gravel coming up like a inch... shannon

                                                                                                                    Shannon,

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Flourish excel is an organic supplement of CO2. It provides the plants with an intermediate form of carbon that can be utilized in photosynthesis and also has a benefit of chelating trace elements like iron. It is a good product by seachem and gives wonderful results when accompanied by a bit of CO2 addition.. nevertheless it is a good product on its own as well.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4377 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                    Looks most probably like roots rather then algae.. although it could also be thread algae but it does not remain at 1” for long. Are you sure they are not crap things like Hydra etc.? Is it possible to get a pic of them?

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Flourish excel may be difficult to get at petsmart I suppose. You need to lookup a seachem dealer

                                                                                                                    http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html a link for Flourish excel. You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. I am not in the US so really don’t know.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                    From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                    Sent: 18 August 2004 09:52
                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    well i have been diong some reserach in some plant books i bought and i was thinking that it might help.. is that something you think i can get at petsmart .. also to add the stands are beige and all over the gravel coming up like a inch... shannon

                                                                                                                    Shannon,

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Flourish excel is an organic supplement of CO2. It provides the plants with an intermediate form of carbon that can be utilized in photosynthesis and also has a benefit of chelating trace elements like iron. It is a good product by seachem and gives wonderful results when accompanied by a bit of CO2 addition.. nevertheless it is a good product on its own as well.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                     



                                                                                                                            




                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4378 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                                    g-dude: You mention your water was perfect; can I assume that you've tested for everything (ammonia, nitrites, sudden shift in pH, temperature, etc.)? I would guess that there was nothing externally visable on the fish as far as any diseases or you would have mentioned it. I tend to rule out any internal disease as it seemed too sudden with all fish involved. As far as I know, Pleco's will not go after live fish. Yes, they will scavenge dead ones. The fact that he died too all the more tells me there was something wrong with the water even though he could have ingested diseased fish. You also mention that you keep up on water changes. While it would be assumed that you needn't test your tap water before using it, its not necessarily a bad idea -- I recommend it, when you can, even though you shouldn't have to. My tap water is kept at around pH 7.6 at "all" times by my water company. I presume they monitor it and add necessary additives (chemicals) to keep it in that range. A number of years ago, I luckily was testing my tap water just prior to making some large water changes. The result was a pH of 6.0! I couldn't believe it and tested it over another three or for times before I called my water company to advise them of this, for which they thanked me. It appears somebody there apparently "fell asleep" at the job. Good thing I didn't use the water. Maybe something like this happened to you without your knowing it. Just a possibility as its hard to come up with anything else concrete. Ray
                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4379 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                    Cana's come in a few colors like gold, rust, egg yolk color and variations on that.  They don't come in blue or purple or colors like that.
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                    From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:12 PM
                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                                    thanks terri i know i get a bit out of control with questions sometimes.. let me do some thinking about if i want to add the pomacea canaliculata or not.. one question is that are they colorful lik eyours.. shannon
                                                                                                                    Shannon I just combined your emails into one.
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    The ones I have are legal.  This type of snail is often sold as an algae eater, however they really only eat it as babies.  Once they are a few months old they won't eat it unless there is no other food source.  They need other foods daily.  The larger snails pomacea canaliculata (or cana's) eat algae.  If you want those I can put you in contact with someone who can sell to you from another state where they are legal.
                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                     



                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4380 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: otos
                                                                                                                    That's something to watch out for...it doesn't happen frequently but otos have been known to suck the slime coat off of other fish.
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                    From: Patrick
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    One seems to like to lay on the back of the pleco. 
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4381 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: algae eaters
                                                                                                                    Depends on the size of your tank and what space you have available. I like otos in my smaller tanks and keep bristlenose plecs in my larger tanks. Otos like the company of their own kind, a BN can be kept by itself. Both do an equally good job with algae. They do need to be fed other foods well though...mine like algae and veggie wafers as well as fresh veggies like spinach, lettuce, broccoli, and peas.
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Patrick,
                                                                                                                    Thanks so much, you are always so helpful. I will try to find an otto, as I am not really fond of snails. Just trying to figure out what to get to keep algae down other than chinese algae eaters.
                                                                                                                    thanks again,
                                                                                                                    Dorothy
                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4382 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Foi adicionado no fórum a matéria Palhaços criados, anêmonas e
                                                                                                                        Agora no fórum AquaBahia uma nova parceria, a revista eletrônica @qua estará publicando suas matérias no nosso fórum!  Para começar já com o pé direito foi selecionada a matéria Palhaços criados, anêmonas e outras lendas do aquarismo ! por Ricardo Miozzo
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Veja a matéria em:
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Se você não for um usuário registrado no fórum clique no link abaixo e realize seu registro, é fácil rápido e gratuito:
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Abraços,
                                                                                                                    GATTI
                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4383 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                      "You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. "
                                                                                                                          Bingo! :)  That is where I got mine through the mail, I got the small bottle for about $5.  I don't have a CO2 system, so I got this stuff and my plants started growing like they never had before.  Plants that I thought were almost dead came back and started putting on new leaves.  The Java fern quit making little sprouts off the ends of the leaves (a sign that it is healthy from what I've read).  And no, they don't give me any money or discounts for endorsing them. :)
                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4384 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: otos
                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                            I have been leaving the * out of pl*co for 2 years hoping the myth was true that it would die if you spelled it out pleco, and it is still alive.  If those ottos can take him out, then I will not stop them.  I hate that fish, but can't find it a new home, and don't want to kill him. so I will just let my algae-eating assassins do the work for me. :)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        That's something to watch out for...it doesn't happen frequently but otos have been known to suck the slime coat off of other fish.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4385 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
                                                                                                                        Hey there, I bought a large piece of driftwood for my 29-gallon from
                                                                                                                        the LFS, they told me to soak it a few days so it didn't change my
                                                                                                                        water color ... so I soaked it 2 days in a bucket, changing the
                                                                                                                        water until it was clear...now its been in my tank about a month and
                                                                                                                        the water is a yellow tint? The tank has been running about a month
                                                                                                                        so I thought it was just the cycle...I just tested it and the water
                                                                                                                        is A-ok, cycle is complete...but its still the yellow tint? Will
                                                                                                                        this color go away and is it bad for fish?

                                                                                                                        Thanks

                                                                                                                        C
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4386 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                        I have a feeling one of my two danios is pregnant due to a low
                                                                                                                        hanging fat belly...I have this fish 7 months and have not seens its
                                                                                                                        belly quite this big, and Iv actually been feeding tehm less the
                                                                                                                        last few months to ensure cleaner water...so, if I do see babies,
                                                                                                                        what should I do? Seperate them or just let the run the course? I
                                                                                                                        have a few floating plants and caves they could take cover in...its
                                                                                                                        just teh two danios in thsi tank right now, I am holding off on
                                                                                                                        introducing anyone else that could eat the babies...
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4387 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
                                                                                                                        It's perfectly safe its just the acid in the wood. Over time the acid will eventually seep out of the wood so the coloring should change. Basically the driftwood is acting as a buffer in your water to soften the water and move it more to the acidic side of the pH scale. So really only fish that won't appreciate it is hard water fish like african cichlids.
                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                        From: robdar4609 [mailto:robdar4609@...]
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:16 PM
                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?

                                                                                                                        Hey there, I bought a large piece of driftwood for my 29-gallon from
                                                                                                                        the LFS, they told me to soak it a few days so it didn't change my
                                                                                                                        water color ... so I soaked it 2 days in a bucket, changing the
                                                                                                                        water until it was clear...now its been in my tank about a month and
                                                                                                                        the water is a yellow tint?  The tank has been running about a month
                                                                                                                        so I thought it was just the cycle...I just tested it and the water
                                                                                                                        is A-ok, cycle is complete...but its still the yellow tint?  Will
                                                                                                                        this color go away and is it bad for fish?

                                                                                                                        Thanks

                                                                                                                        C



                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4388 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
                                                                                                                        sounds like tanin from the wood. it's not bad for the fish, it just
                                                                                                                        stains the water. you can use carbon to get it out.
                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                        On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:16 PM, robdar4609 wrote:

                                                                                                                        > Hey there, I bought a large piece of driftwood for my 29-gallon from
                                                                                                                        > the LFS, they told me to soak it a few days so it didn't change my
                                                                                                                        > water color ... so I soaked it 2 days in a bucket, changing the
                                                                                                                        > water until it was clear...now its been in my tank about a month and
                                                                                                                        > the water is a yellow tint?  The tank has been running about a month
                                                                                                                        > so I thought it was just the cycle...I just tested it and the water
                                                                                                                        > is A-ok, cycle is complete...but its still the yellow tint?  Will
                                                                                                                        > this color go away and is it bad for fish?
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Thanks
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > C
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4389 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                        danios are egg layers, so you won't see the babies, but you'll see eggs!
                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                        On Aug 18, 2004, at 12:26 PM, robdar4609 wrote:

                                                                                                                        > I have a feeling one of my two danios is pregnant due to a low
                                                                                                                        > hanging fat belly...I have this fish 7 months and have not seens its
                                                                                                                        > belly quite this big, and Iv actually been feeding tehm less the
                                                                                                                        > last few months to ensure cleaner water...so, if I do see babies,
                                                                                                                        > what should I do?  Seperate them or just let the run the course? I
                                                                                                                        > have a few floating plants and caves they could take cover in...its
                                                                                                                        > just teh two danios in thsi tank right now, I am holding off on
                                                                                                                        > introducing anyone else that could eat the babies...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4390 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                        Rob,

                                                                                                                        Danios will breed in water that has some movement and usually once they
                                                                                                                        spawn, you will see some eggs on the glass. These eggs are very minute so
                                                                                                                        you need good eyesight to find them. If you see any eggs on the glass,
                                                                                                                        remove the fish else they will eat the young.

                                                                                                                        Also, as amalthea said, Danios are egglayers and not livebearers so don't
                                                                                                                        expect to see any babies.

                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                        >From: robdar4609 [mailto:robdar4609@...]
                                                                                                                        >Sent: 18 August 2004 17:27
                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >I have a feeling one of my two danios is pregnant due to a low
                                                                                                                        >hanging fat belly...I have this fish 7 months and have not seens its
                                                                                                                        >belly quite this big, and Iv actually been feeding tehm less the
                                                                                                                        >last few months to ensure cleaner water...so, if I do see babies,
                                                                                                                        >what should I do? Seperate them or just let the run the course? I
                                                                                                                        >have a few floating plants and caves they could take cover in...its
                                                                                                                        >just teh two danios in thsi tank right now, I am holding off on
                                                                                                                        >introducing anyone else that could eat the babies...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4391 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                        Dorothy, please don't get Otocinclus affinis if you have an African Cichlid tank, they are not at all compatible, and will either die or be attacked immediately; Africans need hard, high pH water(8.0+)and Otos need softer, more neutral water. There are African Cichlids that feed on algae, but they are some of the larger species (so I can't get them for my planned 30 gallon tank). If you have the type of Cichlids that are for soft acidic water otos might be okay. Check out one of the Cichlid sites for more info. "Cichlid Recipe" hasn't been updated in years but has good info. Audrey
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4392 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                        thanks for the link online ordering is great... and i jsut checkd again for the hairs and well most are gone i am like amazed im thinking it is the zebra botia that i jsut added.. would that be him eating them or whatnot..but now that i see them better mabye they are roots.. i took pics later tongiht ill see if they will come out on the puter i cant tell on my digi cam.. shannon

                                                                                                                        Looks most probably like roots rather then algae.. although it could also be thread algae but it does not remain at 1” for long. Are you sure they are not crap things like Hydra etc.? Is it possible to get a pic of them?

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Flourish excel may be difficult to get at petsmart I suppose. You need to lookup a seachem dealer

                                                                                                                        http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html a link for Flourish excel. You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. I am not in the US so really don’t know.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4393 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                        oh that wont do lol i need major color... so your snails do they munch on plants in the tank... im wondering how that would work since they weigh more than the plant can support.. shannon:
                                                                                                                        Cana's come in a few colors like gold, rust, egg yolk color and variations on that.  They don't come in blue or purple or colors like that.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4394 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                        hey do you have al ink for that product where i can buy it.. i think i need that stuff.. i dont have a CO2 system either..
                                                                                                                        "You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. "
                                                                                                                            Bingo! :)  That is where I got mine through the mail, I got the small bottle for about $5.  I don't have a CO2 system, so I got this stuff and my plants started growing like they never had before.  Plants that I thought were almost dead came back and started putting on new leaves.  The Java fern quit making little sprouts off the ends of the leaves (a sign that it is healthy from what I've read).  And no, they don't give me any money or discounts for endorsing them. :)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4395 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        If you go to http://www.drsfostersmith.com/ and search for “excel” on the top, it will list it out to you as “flourish excel”. It should be available at other online stores as well.. I know only about the UK sadly.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                        Sent: 18 August 2004 21:10
                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        hey do you have al ink for that product where i can buy it.. i think i need that stuff.. i dont have a CO2 system either..

                                                                                                                        "You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. "

                                                                                                                            Bingo! :)  That is where I got mine through the mail, I got the small bottle for about $5.  I don't have a CO2 system, so I got this stuff and my plants started growing like they never had before.  Plants that I thought were almost dead came back and started putting on new leaves.  The Java fern quit making little sprouts off the ends of the leaves (a sign that it is healthy from what I've read).  And no, they don't give me any money or discounts for endorsing them. :)

                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4396 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                        Mine only nibble on the edges of plants.  Here is a photo of one the large snails sitting on water sprite.  Plants hold their weight with no problem.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Here is a link to my personal online album if you want to see more. http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 3:08 PM
                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                                        oh that wont do lol i need major color... so your snails do they munch on plants in the tank... im wondering how that would work since they weigh more than the plant can support.. shannon:
                                                                                                                        Cana's come in a few colors like gold, rust, egg yolk color and variations on that.  They don't come in blue or purple or colors like that.
                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4397 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                        i have ottos in with bubblegum cichlids and a blood parrot, amongst
                                                                                                                        others and everyone gets along rather well actually.
                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                        On Aug 18, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Audrey Archer wrote:

                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Dorothy, please don't get Otocinclus affinis if you have an African
                                                                                                                        > Cichlid tank, they are not at all compatible, and will either die or
                                                                                                                        > be attacked immediately; Africans need hard, high pH water(8.0+)and
                                                                                                                        > Otos need softer, more neutral water. There are African Cichlids that
                                                                                                                        > feed on algae, but they are some of the larger species (so I can't get
                                                                                                                        > them for my planned 30 gallon tank). If you have the type of Cichlids
                                                                                                                        > that are for soft acidic water otos might be okay. Check out one of
                                                                                                                        > the Cichlid sites for more info. "Cichlid Recipe" hasn't been updated
                                                                                                                        > in years but has good info. Audrey
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4398 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                        parrots are not african cichlids

                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                        > i have ottos in with bubblegum cichlids and a blood
                                                                                                                        > parrot, amongst
                                                                                                                        > others and everyone gets along rather well actually.
                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                        > On Aug 18, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > > Dorothy, please don't get Otocinclus affinis if
                                                                                                                        > you have an African
                                                                                                                        > > Cichlid tank, they are not at all compatible, and
                                                                                                                        > will either die or
                                                                                                                        > > be attacked immediately; Africans need hard, high
                                                                                                                        > pH water(8.0+)and
                                                                                                                        > > Otos need softer, more neutral water. There are
                                                                                                                        > African Cichlids that
                                                                                                                        > > feed on algae, but they are some of the larger
                                                                                                                        > species (so I can't get
                                                                                                                        > > them for my planned 30 gallon tank). If you have
                                                                                                                        > the type of Cichlids
                                                                                                                        > > that are for soft acidic water otos might be okay.
                                                                                                                        > Check out one of
                                                                                                                        > > the Cichlid sites for more info. "Cichlid Recipe"
                                                                                                                        > hasn't been updated
                                                                                                                        > > in years but has good info. Audrey
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > > ��������
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                                        > > <yhoo0504_testb_300250a052604.gif>
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                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                        > > �
                                                                                                                        > > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                                                                                                        > to:
                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4399 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                        they are 50% cichlids and exhibit many of the the same behaviors.
                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                        On Aug 18, 2004, at 7:47 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                        > parrots are not african cichlids
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >> i have ottos in with bubblegum cichlids and a blood
                                                                                                                        >> parrot, amongst
                                                                                                                        >> others and everyone gets along rather well actually.
                                                                                                                        >> amalthea
                                                                                                                        >> On Aug 18, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>> Dorothy, please don't get Otocinclus affinis if
                                                                                                                        >> you have an African
                                                                                                                        >>> Cichlid tank, they are not at all compatible, and
                                                                                                                        >> will either die or
                                                                                                                        >>> be attacked immediately; Africans need hard, high
                                                                                                                        >> pH water(8.0+)and
                                                                                                                        >>> Otos need softer, more neutral water. There are
                                                                                                                        >> African Cichlids that
                                                                                                                        >>> feed on algae, but they are some of the larger
                                                                                                                        >> species (so I can't get
                                                                                                                        >>> them for my planned 30 gallon tank). If you have
                                                                                                                        >> the type of Cichlids
                                                                                                                        >>> that are for soft acidic water otos might be okay.
                                                                                                                        >> Check out one of
                                                                                                                        >>> the Cichlid sites for more info. "Cichlid Recipe"
                                                                                                                        >> hasn't been updated
                                                                                                                        >>> in years but has good info. Audrey
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>         
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>> ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                                        >>> <yhoo0504_testb_300250a052604.gif>
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                                                                                                                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                        >>>  
                                                                                                                        >>> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                                                                                                        >> to:
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>
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                                                                                                                        >>>  
                                                                                                                        >>> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                                                                                                        >> Yahoo! Terms of
                                                                                                                        >>> Service.
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                        >> http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                        >> Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                                                                                                        >> Artful
                                                                                                                        >> Adornments....
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                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                        Adornments....
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4400 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                        in picture 27 i love the snail that is purple on the right how much would that one be.. and also how long are the life span of snails.. shannon
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4401 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                        I have some danios and the one female laid eggs, and they parents
                                                                                                                        ended up eating them. so if you wanted babies it's probably best to
                                                                                                                        some how get them out of the tank or put the mother in a breeding tank.

                                                                                                                        > I have a feeling one of my two danios is pregnant due to a low
                                                                                                                        > hanging fat belly...I have this fish 7 months and have not seens its
                                                                                                                        > belly quite this big, and Iv actually been feeding tehm less the
                                                                                                                        > last few months to ensure cleaner water...so, if I do see babies,
                                                                                                                        > what should I do? Seperate them or just let the run the course? I
                                                                                                                        > have a few floating plants and caves they could take cover in...its
                                                                                                                        > just teh two danios in thsi tank right now, I am holding off on
                                                                                                                        > introducing anyone else that could eat the babies...
                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4402 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                              When they lay eggs, wait a couple of days and vacuum the gravel well into a white container.  Wait a few more days and look with a flashlight.  There will be babies, they lay eggs so often that there is almost always a few babies in the gravel. 
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4403 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Otos with Blood Parrot Cichlids
                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                            From what I just read, they are a cross of a Severum and Red Devil, both are South American Cichlids, not Africans.  That matters for the water conditions but not aggressiveness.  Aggressiveness varies by the individual fish, though.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4404 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 8/17/2004 9:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, garagedude55@... writes:

                                                                                                                            any
                                                                                                                            one ever had a pleco eat there other fish??

                                                                                                                            I only saw a pleco nibble other fish when the aquarium was massively overcrowded. There were four or five large goldfish in a TEN GALLON tank with a five inch (or bigger) pleco. And the guy who owned the aquarium was surprised when the pleco started nibbling the fins of his goldfish.  His poor fish never got to rest either because he kept the tank light on constantly. But even in that case, the pleco didn't eat the other fish completely ... he just nibbled their fins.

                                                                                                                            Maybe the other fish died and the pleco scavenged them after the fact?

                                                                                                                            I must admit, that is strange that they all went at once.

                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                            CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                            ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                            my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4405 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                                            only dying or dead ones

                                                                                                                            --- Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                                                                                                                            > In a message dated 8/17/2004 9:24:30 PM Eastern
                                                                                                                            > Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                            > garagedude55@... writes:
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > > any
                                                                                                                            > > one ever had a pleco eat there other fish??
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > I only saw a pleco nibble other fish when the
                                                                                                                            > aquarium was massively
                                                                                                                            > overcrowded. There were four or five large goldfish
                                                                                                                            > in a TEN GALLON tank with a five
                                                                                                                            > inch (or bigger) pleco. And the guy who owned the
                                                                                                                            > aquarium was surprised when
                                                                                                                            > the pleco started nibbling the fins of his goldfish.
                                                                                                                            > His poor fish never got
                                                                                                                            > to rest either because he kept the tank light on
                                                                                                                            > constantly. But even in that
                                                                                                                            > case, the pleco didn't eat the other fish completely
                                                                                                                            > ... he just nibbled their
                                                                                                                            > fins.
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > Maybe the other fish died and the pleco scavenged
                                                                                                                            > them after the fact?
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > I must admit, that is strange that they all went at
                                                                                                                            > once.
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                            > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                                                                                                            > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                                                                                                            > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                                                                                                            > my LiveJournal
                                                                                                                            > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                                                                                                            >




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                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4406 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                            they are 100% cichlid, just not african, they are
                                                                                                                            south american which is a whole different ball game.
                                                                                                                            south americans tend to grow larger, and are very
                                                                                                                            aggressive, but the africans are a little more
                                                                                                                            tempermental. the average african temperment would be
                                                                                                                            the equivalent of the south american red devil. there
                                                                                                                            are many less aggressive south americans, especially
                                                                                                                            those with the small mouths, such as the cross bred
                                                                                                                            parrots, discus, and non breeding angels.
                                                                                                                            --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                            > they are 50% cichlids and exhibit many of the the
                                                                                                                            > same behaviors.
                                                                                                                            > amalthea
                                                                                                                            > On Aug 18, 2004, at 7:47 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > > parrots are not african cichlids
                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                            > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                            > >> i have ottos in with bubblegum cichlids and a
                                                                                                                            > blood
                                                                                                                            > >> parrot, amongst
                                                                                                                            > >> others and everyone gets along rather well
                                                                                                                            > actually.
                                                                                                                            > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                            > >> On Aug 18, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                            > >>>
                                                                                                                            > >>> Dorothy, please don't get Otocinclus affinis if
                                                                                                                            > >> you have an African
                                                                                                                            > >>> Cichlid tank, they are not at all compatible,
                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                            > >> will either die or
                                                                                                                            > >>> be attacked immediately; Africans need hard,
                                                                                                                            > high
                                                                                                                            > >> pH water(8.0+)and
                                                                                                                            > >>> Otos need softer, more neutral water. There are
                                                                                                                            > >> African Cichlids that
                                                                                                                            > >>> feed on algae, but they are some of the larger
                                                                                                                            > >> species (so I can't get
                                                                                                                            > >>> them for my planned 30 gallon tank). If you have
                                                                                                                            > >> the type of Cichlids
                                                                                                                            > >>> that are for soft acidic water otos might be
                                                                                                                            > okay.
                                                                                                                            > >> Check out one of
                                                                                                                            > >>> the Cichlid sites for more info. "Cichlid
                                                                                                                            > Recipe"
                                                                                                                            > >> hasn't been updated
                                                                                                                            > >>> in years but has good info. Audrey
                                                                                                                            > >>>
                                                                                                                            > >>>
                                                                                                                            > >>>
                                                                                                                            > >>> ��������
                                                                                                                            > >>>
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                                                                                                                            > >>>
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                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4407 From: jd7152 Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                                            The tank had one piece of driftwood, three planted gabomba's and some
                                                                                                                            floating weeds I bought at the lfs?????

                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                                                                                                                            <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                            > I would sterilize everything with a small amount of plain
                                                                                                                            bleach. It
                                                                                                                            > sounds like some type of disease got in there and took them all out.
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                            juli
                                                                                                                            > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                            ferns,
                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                            sponge filter.
                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4408 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                            And don't forget my current favourite (and breeding project) Bolivian
                                                                                                                            Rams and their cousins Blue Rams which hail from and Bolivia and
                                                                                                                            Venezuela respectively - they are generally not aggressive in a
                                                                                                                            reasonably spaced community tank even when breeding...

                                                                                                                            Tim


                                                                                                                            > they are 100% cichlid, just not african, they are
                                                                                                                            > south american which is a whole different ball game.
                                                                                                                            > south americans tend to grow larger, and are very
                                                                                                                            > aggressive, but the africans are a little more
                                                                                                                            > tempermental. the average african temperment would be
                                                                                                                            > the equivalent of the south american red devil. there
                                                                                                                            > are many less aggressive south americans, especially
                                                                                                                            > those with the small mouths, such as the cross bred
                                                                                                                            > parrots, discus, and non breeding angels.


                                                                                                                            --
                                                                                                                            Tim Walker
                                                                                                                            Database Developer
                                                                                                                            Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                            +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4409 From: Patrick Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Guess
                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                  Plants can be sterilized with a salt bath (2-5 tbs/ gallon for a few minutes) and driftwood can be boiled if you have a large enough pot.  This is really just to be safe, it might not really be needed.  You could probably just put one new fish in there and see how it does for a week or two. 
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                              The tank had one piece of driftwood, three planted gabomba's and some
                                                                                                                              floating weeds I bought at the lfs?????
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4410 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
                                                                                                                              In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:19:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robdar4609@... writes:

                                                                                                                              so I soaked it 2 days in a bucket, changing the
                                                                                                                              water until it was clear...now its been in my tank about a month and
                                                                                                                              the water is a yellow tint?  The tank has been running about a month
                                                                                                                              so I thought it was just the cycle...I just tested it and the water
                                                                                                                              is A-ok, cycle is complete...but its still the yellow tint?  Will
                                                                                                                              this color go away and is it bad for fish?


                                                                                                                              I think you didn't soak your driftwood for long enough. What I did with mine was boil it for about half an hour, five or six times, and then soaked it for a week, changing the water every couple of days until the water was clear.

                                                                                                                              The yellow tint comes from the tannins in the wood.

                                                                                                                              I think the color will eventually go away (ask my mom, Audrey, she deliberately put her driftwood in earlier to help with pH issues) and I don't think it will have any real effect on the fish. Just makes it a little harder to see them. *grin*

                                                                                                                              Erin
                                                                                                                              CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                              ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                              my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4411 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                              That is dark purple. $4 and they live 2-5 years depending on water conditions.
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 7:05 PM
                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                                              in picture 27 i love the snail that is purple on the right how much would that one be.. and also how long are the life span of snails.. shannon

                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4412 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Driftwood - Yellow tinted water?
                                                                                                                              the initial yellow will usually go away with soaking
                                                                                                                              of about 2 weeks with frequent water changes, but
                                                                                                                              expect it to return when the wood begins to break down
                                                                                                                              in about a year.

                                                                                                                              --- Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                                                                                                                              > In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:19:08 PM Eastern
                                                                                                                              > Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                              > robdar4609@... writes:
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > > so I soaked it 2 days in a bucket, changing the
                                                                                                                              > > water until it was clear...now its been in my tank
                                                                                                                              > about a month and
                                                                                                                              > > the water is a yellow tint? The tank has been
                                                                                                                              > running about a month
                                                                                                                              > > so I thought it was just the cycle...I just tested
                                                                                                                              > it and the water
                                                                                                                              > > is A-ok, cycle is complete...but its still the
                                                                                                                              > yellow tint? Will
                                                                                                                              > > this color go away and is it bad for fish?
                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > I think you didn't soak your driftwood for long
                                                                                                                              > enough. What I did with mine
                                                                                                                              > was boil it for about half an hour, five or six
                                                                                                                              > times, and then soaked it for
                                                                                                                              > a week, changing the water every couple of days
                                                                                                                              > until the water was clear.
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > The yellow tint comes from the tannins in the wood.
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > I think the color will eventually go away (ask my
                                                                                                                              > mom, Audrey, she
                                                                                                                              > deliberately put her driftwood in earlier to help
                                                                                                                              > with pH issues) and I don't think it
                                                                                                                              > will have any real effect on the fish. Just makes it
                                                                                                                              > a little harder to see
                                                                                                                              > them. *grin*
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > Erin
                                                                                                                              > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                                                                                                              > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                                                                                                              > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                                                                                                              > my LiveJournal
                                                                                                                              > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                                                                                                              >





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                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4413 From: paul helms Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Otos with Cichlids
                                                                                                                              they are friendlier cichlids too

                                                                                                                              --- Tim Walker <twalker@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                              > And don't forget my current favourite (and breeding
                                                                                                                              > project) Bolivian
                                                                                                                              > Rams and their cousins Blue Rams which hail from and
                                                                                                                              > Bolivia and
                                                                                                                              > Venezuela respectively - they are generally not
                                                                                                                              > aggressive in a
                                                                                                                              > reasonably spaced community tank even when
                                                                                                                              > breeding...
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > Tim
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > > they are 100% cichlid, just not african, they are
                                                                                                                              > > south american which is a whole different ball
                                                                                                                              > game.
                                                                                                                              > > south americans tend to grow larger, and are very
                                                                                                                              > > aggressive, but the africans are a little more
                                                                                                                              > > tempermental. the average african temperment
                                                                                                                              > would be
                                                                                                                              > > the equivalent of the south american red devil.
                                                                                                                              > there
                                                                                                                              > > are many less aggressive south americans,
                                                                                                                              > especially
                                                                                                                              > > those with the small mouths, such as the cross
                                                                                                                              > bred
                                                                                                                              > > parrots, discus, and non breeding angels.
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > --
                                                                                                                              > Tim Walker
                                                                                                                              > Database Developer
                                                                                                                              > Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                              > +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              >





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                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4414 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                              so terri do you breed them to make a certain color or how does that happen.. what is your most popular colors.. your pics are so pretty and your tank is awsome... shannon:
                                                                                                                              That is dark purple. $4 and they live 2-5 years depending on water conditions.
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4415 From: bryants4god Date: 8/18/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: shipping to yourself /Terri
                                                                                                                              Purple, blue and ivory are very popular.  I have a genetics program that determines what the offspring will be of any 2 adult snails.  I try to keep the dark snails in one tank and light snails in another.  You can have several colors in the same clutch. 
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Here's the color program if your interested. It's free
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:30 AM
                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] shipping to yourself /Terri

                                                                                                                              so terri do you breed them to make a certain color or how does that happen.. what is your most popular colors.. your pics are so pretty and your tank is awsome... shannon:
                                                                                                                              That is dark purple. $4 and they live 2-5 years depending on water conditions.
                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4416 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: NIM: Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                              nim i spent about 30 mintues looking through all of the links of contacts and cant find anyone that ships.. is there a link of someone that you know of that sells this product... looks like somethign that i really need... shannon

                                                                                                                              Looks most probably like roots rather then algae.. although it could also be thread algae but it does not remain at 1” for long. Are you sure they are not crap things like Hydra etc.? Is it possible to get a pic of them?

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              Flourish excel may be difficult to get at petsmart I suppose. You need to lookup a seachem dealer

                                                                                                                              http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html a link for Flourish excel. You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. I am not in the US so really don’t know.

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4417 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: americanfishguy : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...
                                                                                                                              what is the online store or place you bought yours i cant find it online.. and there are no venders in my area... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                              You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. "
                                                                                                                                  Bingo! :)  That is where I got mine through the mail, I got the small bottle for about $5.  I don't have a CO2 system, so I got this stuff and my plants started growing like they never had before.  Plants that I thought were almost dead came back and started putting on new leaves.  The Java fern quit making little sprouts off the ends of the leaves (a sign that it is healthy from what I've read).  And no, they don't give me any money or discounts for endorsing them. :)
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4418 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Shannon: Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                              This is the post I sent yesterday. Did you not get it?

                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                              From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 August 2004 21:58
                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              If you go to http://www.drsfostersmith.com/ and search for “excel” on the top, it will list it out to you as “flourish excel”. It should be available at other online stores as well.. I know only about the UK sadly.

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 August 2004 21:10
                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] : Plant issues...and also hairs growing ...

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              hey do you have al ink for that product where i can buy it.. i think i need that stuff.. i dont have a CO2 system either..

                                                                                                                              "You can however get it online from many places I suppose.. Dr. fosters & smith maybe.. "

                                                                                                                                  Bingo! :)  That is where I got mine through the mail, I got the small bottle for about $5.  I don't have a CO2 system, so I got this stuff and my plants started growing like they never had before.  Plants that I thought were almost dead came back and started putting on new leaves.  The Java fern quit making little sprouts off the ends of the leaves (a sign that it is healthy from what I've read).  And no, they don't give me any money or discounts for endorsing them. :)

                                                                                                                               



                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4419 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                              I have to disagree with putting mum in a breeding tank, as a danio owner myself. Danios are too fast and like darting around too much to be put in a small space it will only stress her out so much that she either dies or aborts the eggs.
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              The best thing to do and it has worked for me is to plant up the tank that the female is in and put marbles at the bottom this way when the eggs drop they will go between the marbles and mum nor any other fish will be able to get to them.
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Sarah 
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              Date: 08/19/04 01:14:56
                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Danio Babies?
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              I have some danios and the one female laid eggs, and they parents
                                                                                                                              ended up eating them. so if you wanted babies it's probably best to
                                                                                                                              some how get them out of the tank or put the mother in a breeding tank.
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              > I have a feeling one of my two danios is pregnant due to a low
                                                                                                                              > hanging fat belly...I have this fish 7 months and have not seens its
                                                                                                                              > belly quite this big, and Iv actually been feeding tehm less the
                                                                                                                              > last few months to ensure cleaner water...so, if I do see babies,
                                                                                                                              > what should I do?  Seperate them or just let the run the course? I
                                                                                                                              > have a few floating plants and caves they could take cover in...its
                                                                                                                              > just teh two danios in thsi tank right now, I am holding off on
                                                                                                                              > introducing anyone else that could eat the babies...
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                               
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                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4420 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Danio Babies(?)
                                                                                                                              Would just like to point out that if you want any young Danios, you
                                                                                                                              can't put just the "mother" (female) in a breeding tank and expect to
                                                                                                                              have any Danio fry from her eggs. As egglayers, the Danio eggs are
                                                                                                                              externally fertilized. This means you need to have the male present
                                                                                                                              to fertilize the eggs as the female releases them. If you want any
                                                                                                                              Danio babies, it is best to separate the pair from the community tank
                                                                                                                              to a breeding tank of their own (15 gallon tank will do, but you can
                                                                                                                              get away with a ten). And, as Sarah pointed out, spread a single
                                                                                                                              layer of marbles over the entire bottom of the tank, and throw in a
                                                                                                                              few clumps of Java Moss. Lower the water level to about 3" - 4". As
                                                                                                                              they lay their eggs, the eggs will fall in between the marbles where
                                                                                                                              they will be safe; otherwise, the parents can (and usually will) eat
                                                                                                                              them. Move the parents back to the community tank after spawning. Ray
                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4421 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
                                                                                                                              As has already been mentioned, Parrot Cichlids are 100% Cichlids (not
                                                                                                                              50% Cichlid and 50% something else). And yes, they are a hybred of a
                                                                                                                              Severum and a Red Devil (50% - 50%). I would like to point out
                                                                                                                              however, without appearing to nit-pick, the Severum are from South
                                                                                                                              America and do best in soft acid water, while Red Devils are from
                                                                                                                              Central America and do best in hard alkaline (pH 7.6+) water. The
                                                                                                                              point being that this resulting hybred can tolerate a wide range of
                                                                                                                              pH conditions. Additionally, the Parrot's disposition seems more
                                                                                                                              mellow in general, for a Cichlid, although that can vary with the
                                                                                                                              individual. Ray
                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4422 From: Patrick Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                              Subject: americanfishguy : Plant issues
                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                    drsfostersmith.com is the link, you might have to copy and paste the url.  Here is a direct link to where you order online: Flourish Excel and here is a link to get a Free Catalog in case you would prefer to order through the mail and send a check.  First time order usually gets $5 off the price.  The Flourish web site says that the product can also remove hair algae from the tank, by the way.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4423 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 354
                                                                                                                                Amalthea, I specifically stated that cichlids for acidic waters would probably be fine with Otocinclus; my only caution to Dorothy was for African cichlids, and specifically because of the requirement for very hard water with high pH, not disposition. (Paul, thanks for the support...)
                                                                                                                                I don't think mildly territorial fish mind much about Otos sharing their space. My Dwarf Gourami male (Billy the Bully) never bothered my Oto until it died (when he decided to munch on it), although he chases everything else in the tank that gets anywhere near his nest, even tho the only thing in it is some tiny snails.
                                                                                                                                By the way, the tiny holes in Billy's dorsal fin are still there, and yesterday I noticed a couple of open sores on one side of his body, so I put him in the hospice tank by himself and am treating with Melafix in hopes he will heal up. Hasn't affected his behavior or appetite, so I think he hurt himself. Either on the driftwood, which is coming apart a bit, or else on the fake rock (which I have removed) or the Hi-Lite laser lights, which I am probably going to remove as well. (He was fine until I added those last two items to the tank.)

                                                                                                                                Audrey


                                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Re: Otos with Cichlids

                                                                                                                                they are 100% cichlid, just not african, they are
                                                                                                                                south american which is a whole different ball game.
                                                                                                                                south americans tend to grow larger, and are very
                                                                                                                                aggressive, but the africans are a little more
                                                                                                                                tempermental. the average african temperment would be
                                                                                                                                the equivalent of the south american red devil. there
                                                                                                                                are many less aggressive south americans, especially
                                                                                                                                those with the small mouths, such as the cross bred
                                                                                                                                parrots, discus, and non breeding angels.
                                                                                                                                --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                > they are 50% cichlids and exhibit many of the the
                                                                                                                                > same behaviors.
                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4424 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: thanks nim Plant issues...and also hairs ...
                                                                                                                                i didnt get it... but i did now.. and i found it jsut now thank... in the directions on the site it says to do a 40% water change before ever putting this in the tank is that what you did... i cant imagine doing that kind of water change only cuase i just recenly did one.. shannon

                                                                                                                                This is the post I sent yesterday. Did you not get it?

                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4425 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: americanfishguy : Plant issues
                                                                                                                                wow what a combination hit two things with one stone... thanks so much.. shannon
                                                                                                                                drsfostersmith.com is the link, you might have to copy and paste the url.  Here is a direct link to where you order online: Flourish Excel and here is a link to get a Free Catalog in case you would prefer to order through the mail and send a check.  First time order usually gets $5 off the price.  The Flourish web site says that the product can also remove hair algae from the tank, by the way.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4426 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
                                                                                                                                Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                 It is me again, I am getting confused. I won't buy any ottos until I am sure they will be okay in my tank. My jelly bean parrot fish are very territorial, but, no fish has ever died in that tank or been injured. I also have 2 convicts in that tank.that is the tank I have my chinese algae eaters in. Do you think they would be all right in my tank?Since they are smaller than my algae eaters , would they be bothered by the jelly bean parrot fish and the convicts?I work nights and get on the computer when I get home from work. I haven't had time to go to any chiclid sites to find out what they say. I intend to as soon as I have time.
                                                                                                                                Thanks everyone for all the valuable info. I don't always participate, but, I always read averyone's messages and I am learning alot of good info.
                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                Dorothy
                                                                                                                                Ray Wetzel <sevenspringss@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                As has already been mentioned, Parrot Cichlids are 100% Cichlids (not
                                                                                                                                50% Cichlid and 50% something else). And yes, they are a hybred of a
                                                                                                                                Severum and a Red Devil (50% - 50%). I would like to point out
                                                                                                                                however, without appearing to nit-pick, the Severum are from South
                                                                                                                                America and do best in soft acid water, while Red Devils are from
                                                                                                                                Central America and do best in hard alkaline (pH 7.6+) water. The
                                                                                                                                point being that this resulting hybred can tolerate a wide range of
                                                                                                                                pH conditions. Additionally, the Parrot's disposition seems more
                                                                                                                                mellow in general, for a Cichlid, although that can vary with the
                                                                                                                                individual. Ray



                                                                                                                                        




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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4427 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
                                                                                                                                i think the size of the tank is important. i've had jellybeans kill
                                                                                                                                them in a 10, but they barely notice them in the 55.
                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:56 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                >  It is me again, I am getting confused. I won't buy any ottos until I
                                                                                                                                > am sure they will be okay in my tank. My jelly bean parrot fish are
                                                                                                                                > very territorial, but, no fish has ever died in that tank or been
                                                                                                                                > injured. I also have 2 convicts in that tank.that is the tank I have
                                                                                                                                > my chinese algae eaters in. Do you think they would be all right in my
                                                                                                                                > tank?Since they are smaller than my algae eaters , would they be
                                                                                                                                > bothered by the jelly bean parrot fish and the convicts?I work nights
                                                                                                                                > and get on the computer when I get home from work. I haven't had time
                                                                                                                                > to go to any chiclid sites to find out what they say. I intend to as
                                                                                                                                > soon as I have time.
                                                                                                                                > Thanks everyone for all the valuable info. I don't always participate,
                                                                                                                                > but, I always read averyone's messages and I am learning alot of good
                                                                                                                                > info.
                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                > Dorothy
                                                                                                                                > Ray Wetzel <sevenspringss@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                > As has already been mentioned, Parrot Cichlids are 100% Cichlids (not
                                                                                                                                > 50% Cichlid and 50% something else). And yes, they are a hybred of a
                                                                                                                                > Severum and a Red Devil (50% - 50%). I would like to point out
                                                                                                                                > however, without appearing to nit-pick, the Severum are from South
                                                                                                                                > America and do best in soft acid water, while Red Devils are from
                                                                                                                                > Central America and do best in hard alkaline (pH 7.6+) water. The
                                                                                                                                > point being that this resulting hybred can tolerate a wide range of
                                                                                                                                > pH conditions. Additionally, the Parrot's disposition seems more
                                                                                                                                > mellow in general, for a Cichlid, although that can vary with the
                                                                                                                                > individual. Ray
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4428 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
                                                                                                                                Hi amalthea,
                                                                                                                                My tank is a 30 gallon, what do you think?
                                                                                                                                Dorothy

                                                                                                                                amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                i think the size of the tank is important. i've had jellybeans kill
                                                                                                                                them in a 10, but they barely notice them in the 55.
                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:56 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                >  It is me again, I am getting confused. I won't buy any ottos until I
                                                                                                                                > am sure they will be okay in my tank. My jelly bean parrot fish are
                                                                                                                                > very territorial, but, no fish has ever died in that tank or been
                                                                                                                                > injured. I also have 2 convicts in that tank.that is the tank I have
                                                                                                                                > my chinese algae eaters in. Do you think they would be all right in my
                                                                                                                                > tank?Since they are smaller than my algae eaters , would they be
                                                                                                                                > bothered by the jelly bean parrot fish and the convicts?I work nights
                                                                                                                                > and get on the computer when I get home from work. I haven't had time
                                                                                                                                > to go to any chiclid sites to find out what they say. I intend to as
                                                                                                                                > soon as I have time.
                                                                                                                                > Thanks everyone for all the valuable info. I don't always participate,
                                                                                                                                > but, I always read averyone's messages and I am learning alot of good
                                                                                                                                > info.
                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                > Dorothy
                                                                                                                                > Ray Wetzel wrote:
                                                                                                                                > As has already been mentioned, Parrot Cichlids are 100% Cichlids (not
                                                                                                                                > 50% Cichlid and 50% something else). And yes, they are a hybred of a
                                                                                                                                > Severum and a Red Devil (50% - 50%). I would like to point out
                                                                                                                                > however, without appearing to nit-pick, the Severum are from South
                                                                                                                                > America and do best in soft acid water, while Red Devils are from
                                                                                                                                > Central America and do best in hard alkaline (pH 7.6+) water. The
                                                                                                                                > point being that this resulting hybred can tolerate a wide range of
                                                                                                                                > pH conditions. Additionally, the Parrot's disposition seems more
                                                                                                                                > mellow in general, for a Cichlid, although that can vary with the
                                                                                                                                > individual. Ray
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4429 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/19/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
                                                                                                                                well, it's in the middle. your best bet is to make sure you have lots
                                                                                                                                of plantings and a piece of driftwood in there. before you put in the
                                                                                                                                ottos, feed the parrots, completely rearrange the tank and then
                                                                                                                                introduce the ottos. the territory will be disrupted and the ottos will
                                                                                                                                have hiding places. then, just watch them for a couple of hours. if
                                                                                                                                they're ok after that, all should be well.
                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                On Aug 20, 2004, at 1:20 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hi amalthea,
                                                                                                                                > My tank is a 30 gallon, what do you think?
                                                                                                                                > Dorothy
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                > i think the size of the tank is important. i've had jellybeans kill
                                                                                                                                > them in a 10, but they barely notice them in the 55.
                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                > On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:56 AM, dorothy wheeler wrote:
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > > Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                > >  It is me again, I am getting confused. I won't buy any ottos until I
                                                                                                                                > > am sure they will be okay in my tank. My jelly bean parrot fish are
                                                                                                                                > > very territorial, but, no fish has ever died in that tank or been
                                                                                                                                > > injured. I also have 2 convicts in that tank.that is the tank I have
                                                                                                                                > > my chinese algae eaters in. Do you think they would be all right in
                                                                                                                                > my
                                                                                                                                > > tank?Since they are smaller than my algae eaters , would they be
                                                                                                                                > > bothered by the jelly bean parrot fish and the convicts?I work
                                                                                                                                > nights
                                                                                                                                > > and get on the computer when I get home from work. I haven't had
                                                                                                                                > time
                                                                                                                                > > to go to any chiclid sites to find out what they say. I intend to as
                                                                                                                                > > soon as I have time.
                                                                                                                                > > Thanks everyone for all the valuable info. I don't always
                                                                                                                                > participate,
                                                                                                                                > > but, I always read averyone's messages and I am learning alot of
                                                                                                                                > good
                                                                                                                                > > info.
                                                                                                                                > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                > > Dorothy
                                                                                                                                > > Ray Wetzel wrote:
                                                                                                                                > > As has already been mentioned, Parrot Cichlids are 100% Cichlids (not
                                                                                                                                > > 50% Cichlid and 50% something else). And yes, they are a hybred of a
                                                                                                                                > > Severum and a Red Devil (50% - 50%). I would like to point out
                                                                                                                                > > however, without appearing to nit-pick, the Severum are from South
                                                                                                                                > > America and do best in soft acid water, while Red Devils are from
                                                                                                                                > > Central America and do best in hard alkaline (pH 7.6+) water. The
                                                                                                                                > > point being that this resulting hybred can tolerate a wide range of
                                                                                                                                > > pH conditions. Additionally, the Parrot's disposition seems more
                                                                                                                                > > mellow in general, for a Cichlid, although that can vary with the
                                                                                                                                > > individual. Ray
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > >         
                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                > >  
                                                                                                                                > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4430 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
                                                                                                                                I've never thought about it but - while I was ranting about my fish
                                                                                                                                breeding plans to my absolutely rapt wife (ahem not) she stopped me and
                                                                                                                                asked why was I calling the baby fish "fry". The obvious answer being,
                                                                                                                                "because that's what you call them" was rather lacking and www.dict.org
                                                                                                                                had not much more to say on the matter so I thought I'd ask such an
                                                                                                                                esteemed and learn-ed group such as yourselves.

                                                                                                                                Any ideas?

                                                                                                                                Thanks :-)
                                                                                                                                Tim
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4431 From: paul helms Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Otos and Cichlids
                                                                                                                                i would not put them with chinese algae eaters or
                                                                                                                                convicts myself, as both are aggressive. the parrots
                                                                                                                                should be fine, but convict are a lot moer
                                                                                                                                territorial, and ounce for ounce one of the toughest
                                                                                                                                fish there is. as far as the chinese, once they have
                                                                                                                                reached 3 inche sthey start getting a bit cranky and
                                                                                                                                may attack other fish.

                                                                                                                                --- dorothy wheeler <duchess562000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                > It is me again, I am getting confused. I won't buy
                                                                                                                                > any ottos until I am sure they will be okay in my
                                                                                                                                > tank. My jelly bean parrot fish are very
                                                                                                                                > territorial, but, no fish has ever died in that tank
                                                                                                                                > or been injured. I also have 2 convicts in that
                                                                                                                                > tank.that is the tank I have my chinese algae eaters
                                                                                                                                > in. Do you think they would be all right in my
                                                                                                                                > tank?Since they are smaller than my algae eaters ,
                                                                                                                                > would they be bothered by the jelly bean parrot fish
                                                                                                                                > and the convicts?I work nights and get on the
                                                                                                                                > computer when I get home from work. I haven't had
                                                                                                                                > time to go to any chiclid sites to find out what
                                                                                                                                > they say. I intend to as soon as I have time.
                                                                                                                                > Thanks everyone for all the valuable info. I don't
                                                                                                                                > always participate, but, I always read averyone's
                                                                                                                                > messages and I am learning alot of good info.
                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                > Dorothy
                                                                                                                                > Ray Wetzel <sevenspringss@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                > As has already been mentioned, Parrot Cichlids are
                                                                                                                                > 100% Cichlids (not
                                                                                                                                > 50% Cichlid and 50% something else). And yes, they
                                                                                                                                > are a hybred of a
                                                                                                                                > Severum and a Red Devil (50% - 50%). I would like to
                                                                                                                                > point out
                                                                                                                                > however, without appearing to nit-pick, the Severum
                                                                                                                                > are from South
                                                                                                                                > America and do best in soft acid water, while Red
                                                                                                                                > Devils are from
                                                                                                                                > Central America and do best in hard alkaline (pH
                                                                                                                                > 7.6+) water. The
                                                                                                                                > point being that this resulting hybred can tolerate
                                                                                                                                > a wide range of
                                                                                                                                > pH conditions. Additionally, the Parrot's
                                                                                                                                > disposition seems more
                                                                                                                                > mellow in general, for a Cichlid, although that can
                                                                                                                                > vary with the
                                                                                                                                > individual. Ray
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                > ---------------------------------
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                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4432 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
                                                                                                                                why are baby dogs called puppies? why are baby cats called kittens? why are babies called babies?...lol Just one of those things i think
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Sarah 
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Date: 08/20/04 09:36:38
                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                I've never thought about it but - while I was ranting about my fish
                                                                                                                                breeding plans to my absolutely rapt wife (ahem not) she stopped me and
                                                                                                                                asked why was I calling the baby fish "fry". The obvious answer being,
                                                                                                                                "because that's what you call them" was rather lacking and www.dict.org
                                                                                                                                had not much more to say on the matter so I thought I'd ask such an
                                                                                                                                esteemed and learn-ed group such as yourselves.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Thanks :-)
                                                                                                                                Tim
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4433 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Digest Number 355 - WHY FRY ?????????????
                                                                                                                                In a message dated 8/20/04 8:44:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                From: "Sarah Harrison" <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?

                                                                                                                                why are baby dogs called puppies? why are baby cats called kittens? why are
                                                                                                                                babies called babies?...lol Just one of those things i think

                                                                                                                                Sarah

                                                                                                                                Works for me.  You forget:  Why is a baby swan called a cygnet ??????????????
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4434 From: j.p.azz Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: tropical fish show
                                                                                                                                Are you going to be in Malta during the month of september?
                                                                                                                                well do not miss out The Malta Aquarist Society annual tropical fish
                                                                                                                                show being held at floriana from the 18th to the 27th of september.
                                                                                                                                on display over 340 aquariums ranging in all types of fish from
                                                                                                                                guppies to oscars ,comunity tanks and much more.
                                                                                                                                for guidance and more info do not hesitate to call me on mob nos
                                                                                                                                0035679474811.
                                                                                                                                entrance is FREE
                                                                                                                                J.P.AZZOPARDI
                                                                                                                                MALTA
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4435 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Stocking
                                                                                                                                Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2 female sword tales in it.  I'm thinking of added 2 zebra, 2 gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats to this tank.  Would it be over stocked?
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                T
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4436 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24
                                                                                                                                PH 7.4 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was detectable
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my tank.  A Marble as well as a Koi.  All seemed fine for the first day or so then I notice my 2 Gold Barbs were picking on the Koi.  So I moved him into another tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras.  Well he was beating up had a lot of fin damage.  he died 2 days ago.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has died.  The fins were perfect and no signs of being picked on.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could of died.  All the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine.  Do you think I just ended up with BAD fish?  Will be setting up a Quarantine tank this weekend.  Should of done it from the start, but didn't.  Any incite would be great.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4437 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                Hi T,

                                                                                                                                What size is your tank ??

                                                                                                                                W/o that we cannot say if its being overstocked or not
                                                                                                                                !

                                                                                                                                Also please advise how long the tank has been running
                                                                                                                                ?

                                                                                                                                Its always better to add the fishes gradually so that
                                                                                                                                the beneficial bacteria can handle the increased
                                                                                                                                bioload.

                                                                                                                                How often do you change the water is it a planted
                                                                                                                                tank.

                                                                                                                                Please advise the above details so it will be helful
                                                                                                                                to advise u better.

                                                                                                                                ..SuNnY !

                                                                                                                                --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2 female
                                                                                                                                > sword tales in it. I'm thinking of added 2 zebra, 2
                                                                                                                                > gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats to
                                                                                                                                > this tank. Would it be over stocked?
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > T


                                                                                                                                =====




                                                                                                                                got Fish? ~ do you Yahoo!? ~ I've got a group for you!

                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium

                                                                                                                                stop by and see ~ membership is free!









                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4438 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/20/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                Sorry for that.  It's 20 Gallon long and has been running for about 2 months.  I do 15-20% water changes weekly. The tank was fishless cycled.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                T
                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:37 PM
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Stocking

                                                                                                                                Hi T,

                                                                                                                                What size is your tank ??

                                                                                                                                W/o that we cannot say if its being overstocked or not
                                                                                                                                !

                                                                                                                                Also please advise how long the tank has been running
                                                                                                                                ?

                                                                                                                                Its always better to add the fishes gradually so that
                                                                                                                                the beneficial bacteria can handle the increased
                                                                                                                                bioload.

                                                                                                                                How often do you change the water is it a planted
                                                                                                                                tank.

                                                                                                                                Please advise the above details so it will be helful
                                                                                                                                to advise u better.

                                                                                                                                ..SuNnY !

                                                                                                                                --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2 female
                                                                                                                                > sword tales in it.  I'm thinking of added 2 zebra, 2
                                                                                                                                > gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats to
                                                                                                                                > this tank.  Would it be over stocked?
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > T


                                                                                                                                =====




                                                                                                                                got Fish? ~ do you Yahoo!? ~ I've got a group for you!

                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium

                                                                                                                                stop by and see ~ membership is free!








                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
                                                                                                                                http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4439 From: Aranel Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Mollie Changing Colors...
                                                                                                                                I have a male platinum sailfin mollie, and over the past couple of months he's been changing colors. He went from being totally white to having a gold tint to his fins. The gold has started to go across his body now.

                                                                                                                                I've had fish with ammonia burns before and this is not it. Is this normal? He acts and looks very healthy. None of my other mollies have done this, but he's my only sailfin. The others are black and balloon mollies.
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4440 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                Robb, Something in your latest post that you did not mention in your first post has caught my attention. You said that your two Gold Barbs were picking on your Koi Angel. Ordinarily when referring to Gold Barbs, they are thought of as being very peaceful and are excellent community tank candidates, never bothering to pick on any other tankmates. However, as of late, there are now several different,species of "Gold Barbs". The original Gold Barb (very peaceful) from way back in aquarium keeping's beginnings is known as Barbus shuberti. Other gold colored barbs have been developed from several other species as well and are also called Gold Barbs. These include Barbus sachsi and Barbus semifasciolatus, both peaceful as well. More recently a gold form of Barbus tetrazona (Tiger Barb) has been developed. This Gold Barb is a bad actor, in fact Tiger Barbs are notorious fin nippers and are recommended as not to be used in a community situation because of this behavior. Occassionally when kept in groups of seven or so, they are kept too busy chasing each other that the other tankmates are reasonably left alone, but that can be a hit or miss situation. It seems very possible with the behavior you mentioned that you have Gold Tiger Barbs. While your Marble Angel was not torn up, he could have been stressed out too much from being chased. Tiger Barbs can easily be distinguished from the other Gold Barbs as having a much higher body. There are several black vertical stripes on the body which may or may not show up in the gold form. Again, this is just another possibility as to what happened to you Angels, but could be a sure bet. Ray
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4441 From: ron44852000 Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Starting a plant aquarium
                                                                                                                                Hi
                                                                                                                                I would like to start an aquarium with only plants in it for at least
                                                                                                                                a few months and than maybe start adding a few fish later.
                                                                                                                                I was hoping someone could give me some advice on how to get started,
                                                                                                                                what plants to buy and best equipment to use.
                                                                                                                                I was thinking about a tank between 40 and 50 gallons. Any advice
                                                                                                                                would be greatly appreciated and thankyou in advance for any help
                                                                                                                                that you can give me.
                                                                                                                                Ron
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4442 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
                                                                                                                                > In a message dated 8/20/04 8:44:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > > From: "Sarah Harrison" <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                > > Subject: Re: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > > why are baby dogs called puppies? why are baby cats called kittens? why are
                                                                                                                                > > babies called babies?...lol Just one of those things i think
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > Works for me. You forget: Why is a baby swan called a cygnet ??????????????
                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                Yeah, language is a funny thing.

                                                                                                                                Speaking of fry... I have some!!! My first breeding success in my first tank!!! Apparently I missed the eggs from my Golden White Cloud Mountain Minnows (why do some fish have such long names?!) and when I turned on the light and went to feed my fish this morning, I saw what was obviously a baby white cloud swimming near the surface. On closer inspection I saw several more fry that are much tinier. I am assuming they are all minnows, but some are too tiny to tell. Eyes and tails. Since one is about 1/4 inch long, and the others are half that size, I wonder if I missed a previous group.
                                                                                                                                There is no way I will be able to get them out, since they are so tiny and fast...it took me what seemed like forever to net the parents from the pond to bring them inside when it got too hot. Besides, if I put them in the hospice tank with Billy the Bully (male dwarf gourami) he is sure to gobble them up, isn't he? But my tank is really full of plants for them to hide in, so I hope some will escape being eaten by The Mamas and the Papas (new name for the 5 minnows, which were previously unnamed simply because I can't tell them apart) or Millie (the female dwarf gourami). And since I never saw eggs I was not prepared with fry foods... they seem to be feeding off algae on the side of the tank, and there are tiny insect larva in there (lace wings keep invading from the openings for the filter and heater) so I hope since the tank is pretty much a natural environment that they will be okay.

                                                                                                                                Audrey

                                                                                                                                > Message: 7
                                                                                                                                > Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:11:17 -0400
                                                                                                                                > From: Aranel <aranel@...>
                                                                                                                                > Subject: Mollie Changing Colors...
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > I have a male platinum sailfin mollie, and over the past couple of
                                                                                                                                > months he's been changing colors. He went from being totally white to
                                                                                                                                > having a gold tint to his fins. The gold has started to go across his
                                                                                                                                > body now.
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > I've had fish with ammonia burns before and this is not it. Is this
                                                                                                                                > normal? He acts and looks very healthy. None of my other mollies have
                                                                                                                                > done this, but he's my only sailfin. The others are black and balloon
                                                                                                                                > mollies.
                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                Wow, you have a brackish tank? Neat. Is it very different from freshwater tanks?

                                                                                                                                I don't know much about brackish water fish, I haven't read that much about them, but I have been reading about other various fish, and I have noticed that some of the descriptions on care for gold and yellow fish say that diets rich in carotene will help them maintain their colors. Maybe your platinum sailfin is getting a lot of this in its diet and reverting to truer colors for "wild" sailfin mollies?

                                                                                                                                Also, for another type fish I was reading about that was a lighter color than others of the genus, in the description they said that if you used a dark substrate it would darken.

                                                                                                                                Also, is it possible that it was a mislabelled juvenile and that they develop their true color as they mature?

                                                                                                                                Audrey
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4443 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Starting a plant aquarium
                                                                                                                                these 2 links should help. Good luck
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Date: 08/21/04 08:56:49
                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Starting a plant aquarium
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Hi
                                                                                                                                I would like to start an aquarium with only plants in it for at least
                                                                                                                                a few months and than maybe start adding a few fish later.
                                                                                                                                I was hoping someone could give me some advice on how to get started,
                                                                                                                                what plants to buy and best equipment to use.
                                                                                                                                I was thinking about a tank between 40 and 50 gallons. Any advice
                                                                                                                                would be greatly appreciated and thankyou in advance for any help
                                                                                                                                that you can give me.
                                                                                                                                Ron





                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4444 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
                                                                                                                                for your fry grind the flakes finely between your fingers. this will be small enough for them to eat (well whatever mom and dad miss) 
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Date: 08/21/04 10:16:41
                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                > In a message dated 8/20/04 8:44:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > > From: "Sarah Harrison" <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                > > Subject: Re: Why are baby fish called "fry" ?
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > > why are baby dogs called puppies? why are baby cats called kittens? why are
                                                                                                                                > > babies called babies?...lol Just one of those things i think
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                > Works for me.  You forget:  Why is a baby swan called a cygnet ??????????????
                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                Yeah, language is a funny thing.

                                                                                                                                    Speaking of fry... I have some!!! My first breeding success in my first tank!!! Apparently I missed the eggs from my Golden White Cloud Mountain Minnows (why do some fish have such long names?!) and when I turned on the light and went to feed my fish this morning, I saw what was obviously a baby white cloud swimming near the surface. On closer inspection I saw several more fry that are much tinier. I am assuming they are all minnows, but some are too tiny to tell. Eyes and tails. Since one is about 1/4 inch long, and the others are half that size, I wonder if I missed a previous group.
                                                                                                                                    There is no way I will be able to get them out, since they are so tiny and fast...it took me what seemed like forever to net the parents from the pond to bring them inside when it got too hot. Besides, if I put them in the hospice tank with Billy the Bully (male dwarf gourami) he is sure to gobble them up, isn't he? But my tank is really full of plants for them to hide in, so I hope some will escape being eaten by The Mamas and the Papas (new name for the 5 minnows, which were previously unnamed simply because I can't tell them apart) or Millie (the female dwarf gourami). And since I never saw eggs I was not prepared with fry foods... they seem to be feeding off algae on the side of the tank, and there are tiny insect larva in there (lace wings keep invading from the openings for the filter and heater) so I hope since the tank is pretty much a natural environment that they will be okay.

                                                                                                                                Audrey

                                                                                                                                > Message: 7        
                                                                                                                                >    Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:11:17 -0400
                                                                                                                                >    From: Aranel <aranel@...>
                                                                                                                                > Subject: Mollie Changing Colors...
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > I have a male platinum sailfin mollie, and over the past couple of
                                                                                                                                > months he's been changing colors. He went from being totally white to
                                                                                                                                > having a gold tint to his fins. The gold has started to go across his
                                                                                                                                > body now.
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > I've had fish with ammonia burns before and this is not it. Is this
                                                                                                                                > normal? He acts and looks very healthy. None of my other mollies have
                                                                                                                                > done this, but he's my only sailfin. The others are black and balloon
                                                                                                                                > mollies.
                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                Wow, you have a brackish tank? Neat. Is it very different from freshwater tanks?

                                                                                                                                I don't know much about brackish water fish, I haven't read that much about them, but I have been reading about other various fish, and I have noticed that some of the descriptions on care for gold and yellow fish say that diets rich in carotene will help them maintain their colors. Maybe your platinum sailfin is getting a lot of this in its diet and reverting to truer colors for "wild" sailfin mollies?

                                                                                                                                Also, for another type fish I was reading about that was a lighter color than others of the genus, in the description they said that if you used a dark substrate it would darken.

                                                                                                                                Also, is it possible that it was a mislabelled juvenile and that they develop their true color as they mature?

                                                                                                                                Audrey



                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4445 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                from what i know you maybe right about capacity there. not sure since i don't know much about the cory cats 
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Date: 08/21/04 00:17:21
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Stocking
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Sorry for that.  It's 20 Gallon long and has been running for about 2 months.  I do 15-20% water changes weekly. The tank was fishless cycled.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                T
                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:37 PM
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Stocking

                                                                                                                                Hi T,

                                                                                                                                What size is your tank ??

                                                                                                                                W/o that we cannot say if its being overstocked or not
                                                                                                                                !

                                                                                                                                Also please advise how long the tank has been running
                                                                                                                                ?

                                                                                                                                Its always better to add the fishes gradually so that
                                                                                                                                the beneficial bacteria can handle the increased
                                                                                                                                bioload.

                                                                                                                                How often do you change the water is it a planted
                                                                                                                                tank.

                                                                                                                                Please advise the above details so it will be helful
                                                                                                                                to advise u better.

                                                                                                                                ..SuNnY !

                                                                                                                                --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                > Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2 female
                                                                                                                                > sword tales in it.  I'm thinking of added 2 zebra, 2
                                                                                                                                > gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats to
                                                                                                                                > this tank.  Would it be over stocked?
                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                > T


                                                                                                                                =====




                                                                                                                                got Fish? ~ do you Yahoo!? ~ I've got a group for you!

                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium

                                                                                                                                stop by and see ~ membership is free!








                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
                                                                                                                                http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4446 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: fish fry finally identified
                                                                                                                                Remember those four babies I had born a couple weeks or so ago? Well, two of them died, then one day I noticed that there was only one left in the fry "box", so I assumed the third had died and the other had eaten it.

                                                                                                                                Well, the last baby has finally started developing some markings. It's still whitish clear, and now there are two little spots on its tail. So I'm thinking its a Mickey Mouse Platy fry. It looks just like the Mickey Mouse Platy that I bought, except that the "mickey mouse head" hasn't fully developed yet.

                                                                                                                                It's definitely cute! It should be big enough to release into the main part of the tank soon. So my final count is as follows :
                                                                                                                                1 black Balloon Belly Molly
                                                                                                                                3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                1 "Fancy Molly"
                                                                                                                                2 Mickey Mouse Platies

                                                                                                                                My "Molly/Platy" tank has turned into a "Platy/Molly" tank due to my oldest mollies dying off. :(

                                                                                                                                Erin
                                                                                                                                CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                                my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4447 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                from what i know you maybe right about capacity there. not sure since i don't know much about the cory cats 
                                                                                                                                cory cats are very small bottom feeders..
                                                                                                                                about an inch,  inch & half..in size..
                                                                                                                                I have two for my tank.. albino cory cats..
                                                                                                                                love them..
                                                                                                                                Linda M.
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4448 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                In a message dated 8/20/2004 11:08:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, captainkidd@... writes:

                                                                                                                                Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2 female sword tales in it.  I'm thinking of added 2 zebra, 2 gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats to this tank.  Would it be over stocked?


                                                                                                                                That depends. What is the size of your tank? (gallons)

                                                                                                                                A lot of people recommend "one inch of fish per gallon of water" ... remember to go by the fish's adult size, not their size when you buy them.

                                                                                                                                BUT ... if you do weekly water changes, check your water quality often, etc, you can get away with overstocking. You just have to keep a careful eye on your water quality.

                                                                                                                                Don't buy a bunch of fish all at once though. Adding two or three fish every few weeks is good, it gives your ecosystem a chance to adjust to the added fish load, and keeps your fish from stressing out too much.

                                                                                                                                Erin
                                                                                                                                CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                                my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4449 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
                                                                                                                                In a message dated 8/21/2004 10:33:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scorp1on@... writes:

                                                                                                                                Speaking of fry... I have some!!! My first breeding success in my first tank!!! Apparently I missed the eggs from my Golden White Cloud Mountain Minnows (why do some fish have such long names?!) and when I turned on the light and went to feed my fish this morning, I saw what was obviously a baby white cloud swimming near the surface.

                                                                                                                                Wow, awesome, mom! As was already mentioned, get a little bit of flake food, put it in a ziploc, and mush it up really good so its a very fine powder. You have toothpicks, right? They're great for feeding. Just moisten the tip of the toothpick, and dip it into the powdered food, then put the toothpick into the tank. Fry don't eat much.

                                                                                                                                My one platy fry is nibbling on the riccia that is in the breeder box, so if you have any riccia left in the tank at all, that's great.  I was thinking my baby platy was about ready to release into the main part of the tank, if you want to borrow my breeder box to try and keep the babies from being eaten.

                                                                                                                                Do white clouds like hard water? If so, I might take a few off your hands when they are big enough. *grin*
                                                                                                                                Erin
                                                                                                                                CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                                my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4450 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                From what I've read, your water seems good.  PH may be a little high.  I was reading a book last night about fish keeping and I understand Angels are some pretty hard fish to raise.  Diet, water, tank mates, etc.  Research the angels and maybe you'll find the answer you need.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                T
                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                From: Robb Rouse
                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:03 PM
                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish

                                                                                                                                Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24
                                                                                                                                PH 7.4 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was detectable
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my tank.  A Marble as well as a Koi.  All seemed fine for the first day or so then I notice my 2 Gold Barbs were picking on the Koi.  So I moved him into another tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras.  Well he was beating up had a lot of fin damage.  he died 2 days ago.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has died.  The fins were perfect and no signs of being picked on.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could of died.  All the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine.  Do you think I just ended up with BAD fish?  Will be setting up a Quarantine tank this weekend.  Should of done it from the start, but didn't.  Any incite would be great.
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                Robb


                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4451 From: devileye72 Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                                My tank details:

                                                                                                                                120 gallons

                                                                                                                                Fish: 5 Discus, 20 Cardinal Tetras, 8 Otos, 3 Blue Rams, 1 Pleco, a
                                                                                                                                Zebra Botia, 4 Skunk Botias, 4 Kulhi Loaches, a Clown Loach, 2 Pictus
                                                                                                                                Catfish, 2 Banjo Catfish, 1 Jurupari, and a bunch of Ghost Shrimp.

                                                                                                                                Plants: Onion plants, Swords, Banana Plants, Mondo Grass, Anubias,
                                                                                                                                and a Wort of some sort (I forget which type it is.)

                                                                                                                                Decoration: 2 large driftwood pieces, and a large number of rocks.

                                                                                                                                Filtration: An Emperor 400 and a Proquatics 240 Canister.

                                                                                                                                Lighting: A 40 Watt Lamp with 2 bulbs. The first is the one that came
                                                                                                                                with the strip, the second is a Spectra Max 6500K Full Spectrum Super
                                                                                                                                Daylight.

                                                                                                                                I had a thought about the plant problems I'm having. Several weeks
                                                                                                                                ago, I moved my Green Tiger Loach out of the 120 into my Pink Convict
                                                                                                                                tank (he killed 2 rubber plecos and a bunch of otos.) The Skunk
                                                                                                                                Botias immediately went on a rampage, killing 3 zebras, all of my Yo-
                                                                                                                                Yo loaches, and my little Botia Robusta. I've been fighting an
                                                                                                                                infestation of snails about the size of pin heads and was using the
                                                                                                                                loaches and botias to keep them in check. Could I be seeing the
                                                                                                                                result of a snail population explosion?

                                                                                                                                I've been thinking about moving the Skunks into my Pink Convict tank
                                                                                                                                as well and replacing them with more zebras (If I can find them.)

                                                                                                                                -Sam
                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4452 From: Patrick Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                      Zebra danios need to be in large groups.  Don't get barbs, they are fin nippers in small numbers, get 8 -10 zebra danios and 4-5 cories.  Like the others said, do this slowly, 2 fish per week.  This would get you a total of 33-39 adult inches by my count, and would not be overstocked as long as you do weekly 20% water changes.  (and rememeber, that is just my opinion, you can get what you like.) :)
                                                                                                                                      But do it slowly and each time you go to get fish, take about a pint of tank water for them to test ammonia and nitrite if you don't have your own test kit.  If there is any sign of ammonia or nitrite, wait till they are both 0 to add fish.  Each time you add fish there will be a small spike in those two chemicals, which is why the fish have to be added slowly.
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                  Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2 female sword tales in it.  I'm thinking of added 2 zebra, 2 gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats to this tank.  Would it be over stocked?
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                  T
                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4453 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: panda catfish not doing so good
                                                                                                                                  i woke up this morning to see my  panda catfish swimming upside down at the top of the water that means he is dying right and he flipped out when i caught him in my fish net.. i wanted to hold him up there cuas he is so tiny i can see myself not finding him.. last night i had to do a water change which i have never done.. my fish do fine with me just adding a gallon of water a week cuase my tank evaporates so quickly... but the reason i did it was cause i thought i had a fish stuck in my filter and i went and took the filter out and huge mistake the left over food crap whatever got all in the tank and made it so nasty... i thought for a week or so i was underfeeding my fish and cuase i am leaving town i wanted to see if i was.. come to find out i am not.. for the food was all over the back of the filter in a brown guck... so do you think i stressed this one fish out.. or is this fish dead for other reasons.. i wanted to vacumn my tank tom.. do you think i still can.. thanks for your help... shannon
                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4454 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good

                                                                                                                                  H'lo Shannon,

                                                                                                                                      Seems like you never check your filters or do water changes. Maybe never even check PH, nitrite, ammonia and nitrate levels.  ( .........and does "flipped-out" mean the Panda jumped out of the tank and died , or became agitated /hysterical because someone thousands of times bigger than him/her scooped him/her into an uncomfortable confinement as he was suffering, and swam to his/her happy-place, so it does'nt happen again?, ...........in which case he may still be alive and strengthened by a temporary infusion of fish-adrenaline, before the effects of his malaise return. )

                                                                                                                                     I believe you should adopt a habit of examining your filter material, and cleaning or replacing it as needed. Reports from successful fish keepers have indicated they do anywhere from 10 or 20% to 50% water changes on a weekly of bi-weekly basis. One gallon per-week does'nt come close to approaching the aforementioned, and it sounds as if you have some novice issues with bad advise, or personal issues with forming a habit pattern, or a combination of both,   Check your water conditions for PH, nitrite, ammonia and nitrate after cleaning or replacing your filter material, and doing a 50% water change in this instance.

                                                                                                                                                      Joe P

                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                  -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                  i woke up this morning to see my panda catfish swimming upside down at the top of the water that means he is dying right and he flipped out when i caught him in my fish net.. i wanted to hold him up there cuas he is so tiny i can see myself not finding him.. last night i had to do a water change which i have never done.. my fish do fine with me just adding a gallon of water a week cuase my tank evaporates so quickly... but the reason i did it was cause i thought i had a fish stuck in my filter and i went and took the filter out and huge mistake the left over food crap whatever got all in the tank and made it so nasty... i thought for a week or so i was underfeeding my fish and cuase i am leaving town i wanted to see if i was.. come to find out i am not.. for the food was all over the back of the filter in a brown guck... so do you think i stressed this one fish out.. or is this fish dead for other reasons.. i wanted to vacumn my tank tom.. do you think i still can.. thanks for your help... shannon





                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4455 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
                                                                                                                                  not sure how to take your letter joe but i guess thanks for responding even if it is sarcasiticly talking down to me.. i have done an extreme amount of learning on my new hobby and continue too... i have had no fish die only one by the time i got home from the LFS... i do check the filter atleast once  a week.. and said in my previous letter why i was doing what i was diong... i scopped him up like i said before so i wouldnt loose him cuse i was sure he was dying...and him being so tiny he could easily get away.... and my fish or most that i know of cant jump out of the tank if there is a hood on top...but like i said he was swimming upside down and then litterly flipping around.. i know i am not perfect and dont know everything hence the reason why i am here and why i continue to read and gain knowldege... thanks shannon

                                                                                                                                  H'lo Shannon,

                                                                                                                                      Seems like you never check your filters or do water changes. Maybe never even check PH, nitrite, ammonia and nitrate levels.  ( .........and does "flipped-out" mean the Panda jumped out of the tank and died , or became agitated /hysterical because someone thousands of times bigger than him/her scooped him/her into an uncomfortable confinement as he was suffering, and swam to his/her happy-place, so it does'nt happen again?, ...........in which case he may still be alive and strengthened by a temporary infusion of fish-adrenaline, before the effects of his malaise return. )

                                                                                                                                     I believe you should adopt a habit of examining your filter material, and cleaning or replacing it as needed. Reports from successful fish keepers have indicated they do anywhere from 10 or 20% to 50% water changes on a weekly of bi-weekly basis. One gallon per-week does'nt come close to approaching the aforementioned, and it sounds as if you have some novice issues with bad advise, or personal issues with forming a habit pattern, or a combination of both,   Check your water conditions for PH, nitrite, ammonia and nitrate after cleaning or replacing your filter material, and doing a 50% water change in this instance.

                                                                                                                                                      Joe P

                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4456 From: Jamie Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                  I've had my first Angel-keeping experience recently, also. When I
                                                                                                                                  began about 3 mos ago, I had 2 koi & 4 black/white. Within a week, the
                                                                                                                                  smaller koi died...my pH was approx 6.7 @ that time from what I
                                                                                                                                  recall. Since, the other 5 have thrived in and environment of 6.3-6.4
                                                                                                                                  pH, zero ammonia/nitrites, extreme low nitrates...I rarely check
                                                                                                                                  anything but pH anymore.

                                                                                                                                  From what I hear from my fish-geek type friends <g> pH is extremely
                                                                                                                                  important in certain of Ciclids and especially certain Aussie Rainbows
                                                                                                                                  (I can vouch for that one!) I do like to keep pH low...which is why I
                                                                                                                                  have yet to get a Discus...simply because many diseases can't take
                                                                                                                                  hold in a lower pH environment

                                                                                                                                  Welp, there's my 2 cents (ching!)

                                                                                                                                  be well - fish on!
                                                                                                                                  J

                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Kidd"
                                                                                                                                  <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                  > From what I've read, your water seems good. PH may be a little
                                                                                                                                  high. I was reading a book last night about fish keeping and I
                                                                                                                                  understand Angels are some pretty hard fish to raise. Diet, water,
                                                                                                                                  tank mates, etc. Research the angels and maybe you'll find the answer
                                                                                                                                  you need.
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > T
                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  > From: Robb Rouse
                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:03 PM
                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                  > Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24
                                                                                                                                  > PH 7.4 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                  > Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was detectable
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my tank. A Marble as
                                                                                                                                  well as a Koi. All seemed fine for the first day or so then I notice
                                                                                                                                  my 2 Gold Barbs were picking on the Koi. So I moved him into another
                                                                                                                                  tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras. Well he was beating up had a lot
                                                                                                                                  of fin damage. he died 2 days ago.
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has died. The
                                                                                                                                  fins were perfect and no signs of being picked on.
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could of died. All
                                                                                                                                  the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine.
                                                                                                                                  Do you think I just ended up with BAD fish? Will be setting up a
                                                                                                                                  Quarantine tank this weekend. Should of done it from the start, but
                                                                                                                                  didn't. Any incite would be great.
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Robb
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4457 From: Kristen Wesley Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Swim Bladder Disease? I feel horrible!
                                                                                                                                  About 8 months ago, I bought my five year old son some goldfish. Just the little feeder guys.  Three days ago, when I turned on the light in the morning to feed them, one of them, as it made it's usual mad dash to the top to get something to eat, it started cartwheeling through the water and desperately trying to get upright.  At first I thought one of the other fish attacked it as it was fine throughout the day but swimming a little closer to the bottom of the tank than normal.  Next morning, the same thing.  So I called the pet store and asked what was wrong.  They suggested swim bladder disease and asked me to bring in a sample of the water.  Which I did and apparently, all is good.  It's driving me crazy.  Have I done something for this fish to end up this way?  We had fish when I was growing up and I don't recall ever seeing this.  This poor fish...it seems wobbly now.  I'm absolutely heartsick over this.  Do they get better?  Does it adjust to this or is it going to die some horrible death?  Sorry, I'm pretty ignorant here about the care of a goldfish and whatever it takes, I will do it to fix it.  I'm just sick over this and the pet store didn't offer much advice other than just to let it be.  There has to be something...isn't there? 
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                  I have 4 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank with a bubble wall on the back.  Change a portion of the water about once a week and clean and scrub the algae as per the direction of the pet store and use the additives they suggested (Cycle and Aqua Plus Tap water conditioner). 

                                                                                                                                  Thanks so much for helping out this new member,
                                                                                                                                  Kristen
                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4458 From: Aranel Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors
                                                                                                                                  >> Wow, you have a brackish tank? Neat. Is it very different from
                                                                                                                                  freshwater >tanks?

                                                                                                                                  It's harder to grow plants. That's why I only have a few live ones and
                                                                                                                                  the rest are silk. Of course, I add less salt than most people with
                                                                                                                                  brackish tanks do, (I also have some neon tetras, assorted cory cats,
                                                                                                                                  and a male betta in this tank) because not all of my fish are wild about
                                                                                                                                  high levels of salt. The mollies are great because they can add adapt
                                                                                                                                  from freshwater to brackish to even complete saltwater.

                                                                                                                                  >>I don't know much about brackish water fish, I haven't read that much
                                                                                                                                  >about them, but I have been reading about other various fish, and I
                                                                                                                                  have >noticed that some of the descriptions on care for gold and yellow
                                                                                                                                  fish say
                                                                                                                                  >that diets rich in carotene will help them maintain their colors.
                                                                                                                                  Maybe >your platinum sailfin is getting a lot of this in its diet and
                                                                                                                                  reverting >to truer colors for "wild" sailfin mollies?

                                                                                                                                  That's a very good possibility. This particular mollie came from
                                                                                                                                  Wal-mart, so who knows what kind of parents he may have had as well.

                                                                                                                                  >>Also, for another type fish I was reading about that was a lighter
                                                                                                                                  color >than others of the genus, in the description they said that if
                                                                                                                                  you used a >dark substrate it would darken.

                                                                                                                                  Well, I have sand in my tank for the cory cats. It is a couple of shades
                                                                                                                                  darker than he is.

                                                                                                                                  >>Also, is it possible that it was a mislabelled juvenile and that they
                                                                                                                                  >develop their true color as they mature?

                                                                                                                                  All of my "white" fry have always started off a very pale to dark gray
                                                                                                                                  and lighten as they grow. Also he was fully grown when I bought him, so
                                                                                                                                  I don't think that could be a possibility.

                                                                                                                                  I think I'll just have a look at his diet and maybe switch flake foods
                                                                                                                                  for a while. They all probably need to eat some more veggies anyway. ;)

                                                                                                                                  -Aranel
                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4459 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good

                                                                                                                                  Hello Shannon,

                                                                                                                                      My intention was'nt sarcasm, just did'nt just failed to check my mood, and I still don't know how or if the fish died.  Sometimes I become irritated when I think someone wants to have an aquarium and think, either because of advice or disposition, that you can get by without effort, and then when something happens thinks the problem can be solved by expecting to hear that everything they're doing is OK, or if you drop chemicals into the water, everything will be hunky-dory. If you feel that badly about a sick fish, and have a horrendous buildup of waste on your filters, you can't have both and expect healthy fish.  One gallon a week is'nt enough water change. How big is your tank and how long have you had it. If you worry about over-feeding, how much do you feed, and how often. I, for one, don't believe in having hungry fish. I wonder if people who skip feeding fish for whatever reason (except if the fish are sick) would'nt do it to themselves, aand probably don't fast for religious reasons.  

                                                                                                                                                    Joe P

                                                                                                                                  -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                  not sure how to take your letter joe but i guess thanks for responding even if it is sarcasiticly talking down to me.. i have done an extreme amount of learning on my new hobby and continue too... i have had no fish die only one by the time i got home from the LFS... i do check the filter atleast once a week.. and said in my previous letter why i was doing what i was diong... i scopped him up like i said before so i wouldnt loose him cuse i was sure he was dying...and him being so tiny he could easily get away.... and my fish or most that i know of cant jump out of the tank if there is a hood on top...but like i said he was swimming upside down and then litterly flipping around.. i know i am not perfect and dont know everything hence the reason why i am here and why i continue to read and gain knowldege... thanks shannon

                                                                                                                                  H'lo Shannon,

                                                                                                                                  Seems like you never check your filters or do water changes. Maybe never even check PH, nitrite, ammonia and nitrate levels. ( .........and does "flipped-out" mean the Panda jumped out of the tank and died , or became agitated /hysterical because someone thousands of times bigger than him/her scooped him/her into an uncomfortable confinement as he was suffering, and swam to his/her happy-place, so it does'nt happen again?, ...........in which case he may still be alive and strengthened by a temporary infusion of fish-adrenaline, before the effects of his malaise return. )

                                                                                                                                  I believe you should adopt a habit of examining your filter material, and cleaning or replacing it as needed. Reports from successful fish keepers have indicated they do anywhere from 10 or 20% to 50% water changes on a weekly of bi-weekly basis. One gallon per-week does'nt come close to approaching the aforementioned, and it sounds as if you have some novice issues with bad advise, or personal issues with forming a habit pattern, or a combination of both, Check your water conditions for PH, nitrite, ammonia and nitrate after cleaning or replacing your filter material, and doing a 50% water change in this instance.

                                                                                                                                  Joe P







                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4460 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease? I feel horrible!
                                                                                                                                  By your LFS saying the water was okay, I'm assuming Ammonia, Nitrates
                                                                                                                                  and Nitrites are at reasonable levels.. But if you are interested in
                                                                                                                                  getting more in tune with your fish then the purchase of these testing
                                                                                                                                  kits for yourself might help. (if you don't have them already)

                                                                                                                                  As for swim bladder disease it can be caused by any number of things
                                                                                                                                  from bacterial infections to constipation. And the latter is what
                                                                                                                                  usually causes spontaneous swim bladder problems, especially if they
                                                                                                                                  aren't getting much change in diet and tend to get fed dry food only.

                                                                                                                                  I'd suggest feeding your goldfish peas (as in the frozen green kind).
                                                                                                                                  Defrost the peas in some water and squeeze the inside out of the skin
                                                                                                                                  and feed the inside to the fish, if you do that for a few days then you
                                                                                                                                  might see an improvement.

                                                                                                                                  You could also try proprietary swim bladder disease remedies from your
                                                                                                                                  LFS.

                                                                                                                                  If you don't have much luck and the fish continues to have problems you
                                                                                                                                  may have to consider euthanasia because bacterial swim bladder disease
                                                                                                                                  can be very contagious and will eventually kill all of your fish slowly
                                                                                                                                  instead of one quickly.

                                                                                                                                  Good Luck,
                                                                                                                                  Tim



                                                                                                                                  On 22/08/2004, at 5:01 AM, Kristen Wesley wrote:

                                                                                                                                  > About 8 months ago, I bought my five year old son some goldfish. Just
                                                                                                                                  > the little feeder guys.  Three days ago, when I turned on the light in
                                                                                                                                  > the morning to feed them, one of them, as it made it's usual mad dash
                                                                                                                                  > to the top to get something to eat, it started cartwheeling through
                                                                                                                                  > the water and desperately trying to get upright.  At first I thought
                                                                                                                                  > one of the other fish attacked it as it was fine throughout the day
                                                                                                                                  > but swimming a little closer to the bottom of the tank than normal. 
                                                                                                                                  > Next morning, the same thing.  So I called the pet store and asked
                                                                                                                                  > what was wrong.  They suggested swim bladder disease and asked me to
                                                                                                                                  > bring in a sample of the water.  Which I did and apparently, all is
                                                                                                                                  > good.  It's driving me crazy.  Have I done something for this fish to
                                                                                                                                  > end up this way?  We had fish when I was growing up and I don't recall
                                                                                                                                  > ever seeing this.  This poor fish...it seems wobbly now.  I'm
                                                                                                                                  > absolutely heartsick over this.  Do they get better?  Does it adjust
                                                                                                                                  > to this or is it going to die some horrible death?  Sorry, I'm pretty
                                                                                                                                  > ignorant here about the care of a goldfish and whatever it takes, I
                                                                                                                                  > will do it to fix it.  I'm just sick over this and the pet store
                                                                                                                                  > didn't offer much advice other than just to let it be.  There has to
                                                                                                                                  > be something...isn't there? 
                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                  > I have 4 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank with a bubble wall on the back. 
                                                                                                                                  > Change a portion of the water about once a week and clean and scrub
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                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4461 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
                                                                                                                                  Thanks for saying so.. I dont think or never think that chemicals are the answer that is why i dont run to my LFS to get some.. when i have a question that i cant find a answer to after diong research on here or in my books then i ask a lot of ppl here and years of experience on me.. i started being interested in fish in late of last year and ponded and studied for 2 months before i even got my tank... so to answer your qustion my tank has been up and running since november of last year and with talking to learning about my system i do things as how they work for me and my tank knowing that most ppl do major water changes my tank jsut has never needed it.. not sure if it is just well balanced or whatnot.. but when i thought or feared i was under feeding my fish i added just a bit more food and then found it in my filter (a filter that was brand new)so that i woudl say is not a issue i had i was apparently feeding a good amount... i appreciate all the knowledge that everyone has to offer here even if it is varrying.. and i just think that if ppl are here even if to use that knowledge they shouldnt be looked down upon cuase they are trying... some maybe harder than others but they are putting in the effort.. I for one have never put so much work into something i have than  my tanks.. but i love it.. and wouldnt change it for anything.. thanks again for your post.. oh yea my tank i was talking about was 20 gallons..fully planted and has maxed out with fish... i feed a variety of shrimp pellets usually about 5 and bloodworms a pinch flakes a small pinch and then frog pellets and prolly about 25 or so of them depending on how fast they come out.. but they are the fav and dissappear quickly... so wbasically what my original question was,, was me not doing the major water changes like 40% on a weekly bases then doing it did that stress the fish out.. but then i fogot when i wrote it that when i vacumn the tank i do about a 50% that is about once a month.. hum so now that i am thinking that shouldnt have stressed them out.. oh well i guess i learn and move on right.. but i will miss that panda he was a darn cutie.. shannon

                                                                                                                                  My intention was'nt sarcasm, just did'nt just failed to check my mood, and I still don't know how or if the fish died.  Sometimes I become irritated when I think someone wants to have an aquarium and think, either because of advice or disposition, that you can get by without effort, and then when something happens thinks the problem can be solved by expecting to hear that everything they're doing is OK, or if you drop chemicals into the water, everything will be hunky-dory. If you feel that badly about a sick fish, and have a horrendous buildup of waste on your filters, you can't have both and expect healthy fish.  One gallon a week is'nt enough water change. How big is your tank and how long have you had it. If you worry about over-feeding, how much do you feed, and how often. I, for one, don't believe in having hungry fish. I wonder if people who skip feeding fish for whatever reason (except if the fish are sick) would'nt do it to themselves, aand probably don't fast for religious reasons.  

                                                                                                                                                    Joe P

                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4462 From: Patrick Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease? I feel horrible!
                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                        Goldfish should have a 20 gallon tank for one, and 10 extra gallons for each additional goldfish.  That would be a 50 gallon tank for the 4 that you have.  This is because they will grow to at least a foot, and some grow longer.  They are also very messy fish.  You didn't mention a filter, which is really important.  I would suggest getting a 50-55 gallon tank with a good filtration system.  Cycle is not needed in a properly cared for tank.  Weekly water changes are good.  One of the major causes of swim bladder disease, which is probably what the fish has, is bad water/tank conditions.  For now, you need to do 50% water changes every other day.  I don't recommend medicine, other than melafix and salt, which I don't think will cure them.  Water quality is the main factor and water changes will fix that.  I hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4463 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Starting a plant aquarium
                                                                                                                                    ron i did it the opposite way i started out with fake plants then put all my fish in the decided i was sick of cleaning the gunk off the plastic plants and watching the colors fade on them.. then deicded to go planted.. and put in plants slowly i have one main fake plant that was like extra spendy it doesnt discolor and it looks real and i think the fish like it.. so i left it... but the only issues ive had was now that i need sufficient substrate to plant in i dont have enough gravel... but i am not adding more so i just only buy the plants now that come with their own root system cause they hold their place a lot better than the other which the fish demolish within a weeks time... so my only advice would be to make sure you have enough sand gravel whatever you plan on using... shannon
                                                                                                                                    Hi
                                                                                                                                    I would like to start an aquarium with only plants in it for at least
                                                                                                                                    a few months and than maybe start adding a few fish later.
                                                                                                                                    I was hoping someone could give me some advice on how to get started,
                                                                                                                                    what plants to buy and best equipment to use.
                                                                                                                                    I was thinking about a tank between 40 and 50 gallons. Any advice
                                                                                                                                    would be greatly appreciated and thankyou in advance for any help
                                                                                                                                    that you can give me.
                                                                                                                                    Ron
                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4464 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good

                                                                                                                                       Have you heard that no more food should be fed than what can be consumed in two to five minutes, and what's left after that should be removed?

                                                                                                                                                          Joe P

                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                    Thanks for saying so.. I dont think or never think that chemicals are the answer that is why i dont run to my LFS to get some.. when i have a question that i cant find a answer to after diong research on here or in my books then i ask a lot of ppl here and years of experience on me.. i started being interested in fish in late of last year and ponded and studied for 2 months before i even got my tank... so to answer your qustion my tank has been up and running since november of last year and with talking to learning about my system i do things as how they work for me and my tank knowing that most ppl do major water changes my tank jsut has never needed it.. not sure if it is just well balanced or whatnot.. but when i thought or feared i was under feeding my fish i added just a bit more food and then found it in my filter (a filter that was brand new)so that i woudl say is not a issue i had i was apparently feeding a good amount... i appreciate all the knowledge that everyone has to offer here even if it is varrying.. and i just think that if ppl are here even if to use that knowledge they shouldnt be looked down upon cuase they are trying... some maybe harder than others but they are putting in the effort.. I for one have never put so much work into something i have than my tanks.. but i love it.. and wouldnt change it for anything.. thanks again for your post.. oh yea my tank i was talking about was 20 gallons..fully planted and has maxed out with fish... i feed a variety of shrimp pellets usually about 5 and bloodworms a pinch flakes a small pinch and then frog pellets and prolly about 25 or so of them depending on how fast they come out.. but they are the fav and dissappear quickly... so wbasically what my original question was,, was me not doing the major water changes like 40% on a weekly bases then doing it did that stress the fish out.. but then i fogot when i wrote it that when i vacumn the tank i do about a 50% that is about once a month.. hum so now that i am thinking that shouldnt have stressed them out.. oh well i guess i learn and move on right.. but i will miss that panda he was a darn cutie.. shannon

                                                                                                                                    My intention was'nt sarcasm, just did'nt just failed to check my mood, and I still don't know how or if the fish died. Sometimes I become irritated when I think someone wants to have an aquarium and think, either because of advice or disposition, that you can get by without effort, and then when something happens thinks the problem can be solved by expecting to hear that everything they're doing is OK, or if you drop chemicals into the water, everything will be hunky-dory. If you feel that badly about a sick fish, and have a horrendous buildup of waste on your filters, you can't have both and expect healthy fish. One gallon a week is'nt enough water change. How big is your tank and how long have you had it. If you worry about over-feeding, how much do you feed, and how often. I, for one, don't believe in having hungry fish. I wonder if people who skip feeding fish for whatever reason (except if the fish are sick) would'nt do it to themselves, aand probably don't fast for religious reasons.

                                                                                                                                    Joe P







                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4465 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                                    sam jsut curious when you have a tank of that size and that many fish how does one keep track of all the fish.. or do you keep track by if you loose one.. i couldnt mine prolly on a daily bases but even with 4 neons it is hard to find them all all the time.. i cant imagine like 20 of something.. also your bananana plants how do you have them in the tank.. i had mine planted then they wouldnt stay plants so they kinda jsut stayed at the bottom and got moved around whereever.. then they started floating and then decaying.. they are cute but didnt last in my tank.. i ordered some of the flourish excel so i hope this will help some of my issues.. it is the only think i have put in my tank and it says it is tank freindly.. and ppl on here seeemed to have luck wiht it.. shannon
                                                                                                                                    My tank details:

                                                                                                                                    120 gallons

                                                                                                                                    Fish: 5 Discus, 20 Cardinal Tetras, 8 Otos, 3 Blue Rams, 1 Pleco, a
                                                                                                                                    Zebra Botia, 4 Skunk Botias, 4 Kulhi Loaches, a Clown Loach, 2 Pictus
                                                                                                                                    Catfish, 2 Banjo Catfish, 1 Jurupari, and a bunch of Ghost Shrimp.

                                                                                                                                    Plants: Onion plants, Swords, Banana Plants, Mondo Grass, Anubias,
                                                                                                                                    and a Wort of some sort (I forget which type it is.)

                                                                                                                                    Decoration: 2 large driftwood pieces, and a large number of rocks.

                                                                                                                                    Filtration: An Emperor 400 and a Proquatics 240 Canister.

                                                                                                                                    Lighting: A 40 Watt Lamp with 2 bulbs. The first is the one that came
                                                                                                                                    with the strip, the second is a Spectra Max 6500K Full Spectrum Super
                                                                                                                                    Daylight.

                                                                                                                                    I had a thought about the plant problems I'm having. Several weeks
                                                                                                                                    ago, I moved my Green Tiger Loach out of the 120 into my Pink Convict
                                                                                                                                    tank (he killed 2 rubber plecos and a bunch of otos.) The Skunk
                                                                                                                                    Botias immediately went on a rampage, killing 3 zebras, all of my Yo-
                                                                                                                                    Yo loaches, and my little Botia Robusta. I've been fighting an
                                                                                                                                    infestation of snails about the size of pin heads and was using the
                                                                                                                                    loaches and botias to keep them in check. Could I be seeing the
                                                                                                                                    result of a snail population explosion?

                                                                                                                                    I've been thinking about moving the Skunks into my Pink Convict tank
                                                                                                                                    as well and replacing them with more zebras (If I can find them.)

                                                                                                                                    -Sam
                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4466 From: Patrick Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: panda catfish...
                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                          Joe, you seem a little upset.  I will only disagree with one thing you have said, though.  A lot of "experts" tell us that we should only feed every other day.  I feed every day, but if I skip a day or two I don't think much about it.  Fish aren't people, they only eat when food is around.  If you kept food around, I am sure many fish would eat until they bust.
                                                                                                                                          Shannon, I am sorry to hear about the fish.  Water quality is one of the causes of swim bladder problems.  I would also suggest 25% weekly water changes for the plants.  The reason is that fresh water will bring the plants nutrients that they don't get from just a 5% water change and a 50% each month.  It will keep pH more stable, too. 
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4467 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: FISH NAMES

                                                                                                                                      From: Audrey Archer <arch1574@...>
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Fry, Mollie changing colors

                                                                                                                                      Yeah, language is a funny thing.

                                                                                                                                         Speaking of fry... I have some!!! My first breeding success in my first tank!!! Apparently I missed the eggs from my Golden White Cloud Mountain Minnows (why do some fish have such long names?!)
                                                                                                                                      =============================================================
                                                                                                                                      I don't know why, why ????????????
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4468 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                                      i have a banana plant that's really flourishing. i wrapped a lead
                                                                                                                                      weight around one of the "bananas" to keep in on the bottom and it's
                                                                                                                                      now taken root and puts up lilly pads every week or so. it usually has
                                                                                                                                      about 3-4 pads at any given time. try that method, it works for me
                                                                                                                                      anyway.
                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                      On Aug 21, 2004, at 9:34 PM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                      > sam jsut curious when you have a tank of that size and that many fish
                                                                                                                                      > how does one keep track of all the fish.. or do you keep track by if
                                                                                                                                      > you loose one.. i couldnt mine prolly on a daily bases but even with 4
                                                                                                                                      > neons it is hard to find them all all the time.. i cant imagine like
                                                                                                                                      > 20 of something.. also your bananana plants how do you have them in
                                                                                                                                      > the tank.. i had mine planted then they wouldnt stay plants so they
                                                                                                                                      > kinda jsut stayed at the bottom and got moved around whereever.. then
                                                                                                                                      > they started floating and then decaying.. they are cute but didnt last
                                                                                                                                      > in my tank.. i ordered some of the flourish excel so i hope this will
                                                                                                                                      > help some of my issues.. it is the only think i have put in my tank
                                                                                                                                      > and it says it is tank freindly.. and ppl on here seeemed to have luck
                                                                                                                                      > wiht it.. shannon
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                      Adornments....
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4469 From: devileye72 Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                                      Sometimes it can be hard to keep track of all the fish, especially
                                                                                                                                      with all the hidey holes I've got in the tank. But I work in child
                                                                                                                                      care and have gotten really good at counting large numbers of moving
                                                                                                                                      objects. :) So I have no problems with the cardinals. It's the
                                                                                                                                      loaches that cause me fits trying to track. (Especially the Kulhies)

                                                                                                                                      My banana plants have been in my tank for about 6 months, now, and
                                                                                                                                      have extensive root systems. So they are pretty much stationary. I am
                                                                                                                                      having some issues with the leaves rotting, but they are replacing
                                                                                                                                      them as fast as they loose them. My biggest issue is with my swords.
                                                                                                                                      I bought a potted dwarf chain sword 2 weeks ago, and it's already
                                                                                                                                      dead. Way back in October, I got a large radican sword and it almost
                                                                                                                                      died during a week-long power outage. It has been hanging on,
                                                                                                                                      producing new growth, but the darn thing NEVER looks any better
                                                                                                                                      because the leaves die so often. It's frustrating.

                                                                                                                                      I did manage to find some of the Flourish stuff today and bought a
                                                                                                                                      1/2 gallon jug of it. We'll see how it goes...

                                                                                                                                      -Sam
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4470 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: patrick: panda catfish...
                                                                                                                                      thanks patrick i think im going to start doing some more water changes.. and see if that helps my plants as well.. thanks again.. shannon
                                                                                                                                      Joe, you seem a little upset.  I will only disagree with one thing you have said, though.  A lot of "experts" tell us that we should only feed every other day.  I feed every day, but if I skip a day or two I don't think much about it.  Fish aren't people, they only eat when food is around.  If you kept food around, I am sure many fish would eat until they bust.
                                                                                                                                          Shannon, I am sorry to hear about the fish.  Water quality is one of the causes of swim bladder problems.  I would also suggest 25% weekly water changes for the plants.  The reason is that fresh water will bring the plants nutrients that they don't get from just a 5% water change and a 50% each month.  It will keep pH more stable, too. 
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4471 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: panda catfish not doing so good
                                                                                                                                      i pretty much follow the 3 mintue rule figuring tha there are tid bits left that i cant see or that are in the gravel... i am just giong back to feeding the way i was it seemed to be working.. shannon

                                                                                                                                      Have you heard that no more food should be fed than what can be consumed in two to five minutes, and what's left after that should be removed?

                                                                                                                                                            Joe P

                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4472 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                                      thanks will try shannon
                                                                                                                                      i have a banana plant that's really flourishing. i wrapped a lead
                                                                                                                                      weight around one of the "bananas" to keep in on the bottom and it's
                                                                                                                                      now taken root and puts up lilly pads every week or so. it usually has
                                                                                                                                      about 3-4 pads at any given time. try that method, it works for me
                                                                                                                                      anyway.
                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4473 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/21/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...

                                                                                                                                         Patrick,

                                                                                                                                          Thinking about what you said about 'many fish would eat 'till they burst, I've never experienced it, and noticed there was always food left-over after feeding my fish. I remember from either the Axelrod or Baensch Tropical fish Atlases that disrupting a "captive" (my quotes) fish's feeding pattern can cause stress, so I fed what I read about most often, which averaged two times a day, variety, and whatever I thought was enough since the Corydoras' did'nt like eating unless I dfisappeared after their flurry, then disappearance  to food at regular feeding times. As far as food being available, I don't know the environment in the tropics, but it sems to seethe with life, and if food is as available as it would seem to be in those areas, and my fish behaved in ways that, when I observed, mimicked evolved, genetic behaviour, regular feeding would seem appropriate. Other than withdrawing food because of sick or newly introduced fish for health reasons, I've never come accross specific information regarding withdrawing regular feeding of fish.  I can imagine one would do so to keep the aquarium cleaner, but that is conjecture, and if true is'nt justafiable.

                                                                                                                                                          Joe P

                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                      thanks patrick i think im going to start doing some more water changes.. and see if that helps my plants as well.. thanks again.. shannon
                                                                                                                                      Joe, you seem a little upset. I will only disagree with one thing you have said, though. A lot of "experts" tell us that we should only feed every other day. I feed every day, but if I skip a day or two I don't think much about it. Fish aren't people, they only eat when food is around. If you kept food around, I am sure many fish would eat until they bust.
                                                                                                                                      Shannon, I am sorry to hear about the fish. Water quality is one of the causes of swim bladder problems. I would also suggest 25% weekly water changes for the plants. The reason is that fresh water will bring the plants nutrients that they don't get from just a 5% water change and a 50% each month. It will keep pH more stable, too.






                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4474 From: devileye72 Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
                                                                                                                                      I have never agreed with the 5 minute rule. Especially where catfish
                                                                                                                                      are concerned. Catfish are essentially nocturnal feeders. They might
                                                                                                                                      pick at food during the day, but at night they go on patrol. I had a
                                                                                                                                      spotted raphael that I NEVER saw because it only came out when it was
                                                                                                                                      dark.

                                                                                                                                      In addition, if you have a wide range of fish sizes, you also have to
                                                                                                                                      account for the bully tactics that the large fish will use to eat
                                                                                                                                      first. It may be awhile before the smaller ones get to eat. That is
                                                                                                                                      especially true with cichlids. My 2 smallest Discus will not even
                                                                                                                                      attempt to eat until the 3 larger ones have finished. My father has
                                                                                                                                      the same situation between his Oscars and Jack Dempsey. The Oscars
                                                                                                                                      are so huge and become so aggressive during feeding that the Dempsey
                                                                                                                                      actually goes into hiding until the bigger fish have calmed back down.

                                                                                                                                      -Sam

                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                      j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                      > Patrick,
                                                                                                                                      > Thinking about what you said about 'many fish would eat 'till
                                                                                                                                      they burst, I've never experienced it, and noticed there was always
                                                                                                                                      food left-over after feeding my fish. I remember from either the
                                                                                                                                      Axelrod or Baensch Tropical fish Atlases that disrupting a "captive"
                                                                                                                                      (my quotes) fish's feeding pattern can cause stress, so I fed what I
                                                                                                                                      read about most often, which averaged two times a day, variety, and
                                                                                                                                      whatever I thought was enough since the Corydoras' did'nt like eating
                                                                                                                                      unless I dfisappeared after their flurry, then disappearance to food
                                                                                                                                      at regular feeding times. As far as food being available, I don't
                                                                                                                                      know the environment in the tropics, but it sems to seethe with life,
                                                                                                                                      and if food is as available as it would seem to be in those areas,
                                                                                                                                      and my fish behaved in ways that, when I observed, mimicked evolved,
                                                                                                                                      genetic behaviour, regular feeding would seem appropriate. Other than
                                                                                                                                      withdrawing food because of sick or newly introduced fish for health
                                                                                                                                      reasons, I've never come accross specific information regarding
                                                                                                                                      withdrawing regular feeding of fish. I can imagine one would do so
                                                                                                                                      to keep the aquarium cleaner, but that is conjecture, and if true
                                                                                                                                      is'nt justafiable.
                                                                                                                                      > Joe P
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > thanks patrick i think im going to start doing some more water
                                                                                                                                      changes.. and see if that helps my plants as well.. thanks again..
                                                                                                                                      shannon
                                                                                                                                      > Joe, you seem a little upset. I will only disagree with one thing
                                                                                                                                      you have said, though. A lot of "experts" tell us that we should only
                                                                                                                                      feed every other day. I feed every day, but if I skip a day or two I
                                                                                                                                      don't think much about it. Fish aren't people, they only eat when
                                                                                                                                      food is around. If you kept food around, I am sure many fish would
                                                                                                                                      eat until they bust.
                                                                                                                                      > Shannon, I am sorry to hear about the fish. Water quality is one of
                                                                                                                                      the causes of swim bladder problems. I would also suggest 25% weekly
                                                                                                                                      water changes for the plants. The reason is that fresh water will
                                                                                                                                      bring the plants nutrients that they don't get from just a 5% water
                                                                                                                                      change and a 50% each month. It will keep pH more stable, too.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4475 From: devileye72 Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Posted a pic of my tank
                                                                                                                                      It's under "Sam's Fish" in the photo section.
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4476 From: devileye72 Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Operation Skunk Removal was a success!
                                                                                                                                      Well, it took me almost an hour, but I got the 4 Skunk Botias out of
                                                                                                                                      my discus tank and into the convict tank. And I'm soooo glad I did.
                                                                                                                                      My "Busy Little Fish" seem much happier now that the skunks aren't
                                                                                                                                      harrassing them. And the beasts in the convict tank won't put up with
                                                                                                                                      those kind of antics (especially not the tiger loach) so the skunks
                                                                                                                                      will have to be content to chase each other around, which is what I
                                                                                                                                      love about botias anyway.

                                                                                                                                      What was most surprising about the whole ordeal was that my discus
                                                                                                                                      seemed un-fazed by the whole thing. They only really reacted when I
                                                                                                                                      accidently bumped them with the little nets. I guess they realized
                                                                                                                                      that the nets I was using (two fisted) were too small to catch any of
                                                                                                                                      them and they chose to ignore them. It actually got to the point
                                                                                                                                      where the final skunk was cowering behind the discus for cover (He's
                                                                                                                                      no dummy!) and I had to gently coax them out of the way.

                                                                                                                                      What I ended up doing was setting up a large net between one of the
                                                                                                                                      big driftwood pieces and the front glass of the tank. Then I just
                                                                                                                                      used the little nets to chase the botias into the big net.

                                                                                                                                      UGH!

                                                                                                                                      -Sam
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4477 From: Paulo Gatti Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Foi adicionado no forum a matéria Sistema de CO2 Químico! Por Ri
                                                                                                                                      Agora no fórum AquaBahia a matéria Sistema de CO2 Químico! Por Ricardo Costa.
                                                                                                                                      Ps.: Será este o ponto final nas intermináveis garrafadas com fermento e açúcar? Veja a matéria...
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Veja maiores detalhes no fórum:
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Veja a matéria em:
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Se você não for um usuário registrado no fórum,
                                                                                                                                      clique no link abaixo e realize seu registro, é fácil rápido e gratuito:
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Abraços,
                                                                                                                                      GATTI

                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4478 From: utacutie Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                      Hi all,
                                                                                                                                      I recently added 5 green tiger barb to go along with my 1 orange
                                                                                                                                      tiger barb, and today got readings of .25 ammonia, and .25 nitrite.
                                                                                                                                      Before this levels were: ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate: 10. Should
                                                                                                                                      I do a small water change? Thanks!
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4479 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Operation Skunk Removal was a success!
                                                                                                                                      Urgh. I can understand the ordeal Sam. I had to do a similar thing with the
                                                                                                                                      skunks a month ago and it was a very heavily planted 90 gal tank. They can
                                                                                                                                      be horrible creatures sometimes and mine were bad.. they even did not spare
                                                                                                                                      my 4-5" clown loaches.

                                                                                                                                      I worked that they took a certain path when escaping the net so used a
                                                                                                                                      combination of breeding traps in their paths. It still took over 40 mins to
                                                                                                                                      get the 3 buggers out of there.

                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                      >From: devileye72 [mailto:sfreeman72@...]
                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 22 August 2004 19:13
                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Operation Skunk Removal was a
                                                                                                                                      >success!
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >Well, it took me almost an hour, but I got the 4 Skunk Botias out of
                                                                                                                                      >my discus tank and into the convict tank. And I'm soooo glad I did.
                                                                                                                                      >My "Busy Little Fish" seem much happier now that the skunks aren't
                                                                                                                                      >harrassing them. And the beasts in the convict tank won't put up with
                                                                                                                                      >those kind of antics (especially not the tiger loach) so the skunks
                                                                                                                                      >will have to be content to chase each other around, which is what I
                                                                                                                                      >love about botias anyway.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >What was most surprising about the whole ordeal was that my discus
                                                                                                                                      >seemed un-fazed by the whole thing. They only really reacted when I
                                                                                                                                      >accidently bumped them with the little nets. I guess they realized
                                                                                                                                      >that the nets I was using (two fisted) were too small to catch any of
                                                                                                                                      >them and they chose to ignore them. It actually got to the point
                                                                                                                                      >where the final skunk was cowering behind the discus for cover (He's
                                                                                                                                      >no dummy!) and I had to gently coax them out of the way.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >What I ended up doing was setting up a large net between one of the
                                                                                                                                      >big driftwood pieces and the front glass of the tank. Then I just
                                                                                                                                      >used the little nets to chase the botias into the big net.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >UGH!
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >-Sam
                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4480 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                      If it is a small new tank, then it is expected. I would not do any water
                                                                                                                                      changes unless they reach very high levels. Adding 5 fish in a tank with
                                                                                                                                      only 1 fish in a go will definitely give Ammonia and nitrites. Nothing to
                                                                                                                                      worry though.

                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                      >From: utacutie [mailto:utacutie@...]
                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 22 August 2004 19:30
                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >Hi all,
                                                                                                                                      >I recently added 5 green tiger barb to go along with my 1 orange
                                                                                                                                      >tiger barb, and today got readings of .25 ammonia, and .25 nitrite.
                                                                                                                                      >Before this levels were: ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate: 10. Should
                                                                                                                                      >I do a small water change? Thanks!
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4481 From: utacutie Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                      it's a 29gallon tank. I will monitor over the next few days and see
                                                                                                                                      what happens. Thanks


                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                      Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                      > If it is a small new tank, then it is expected. I would not do any
                                                                                                                                      water
                                                                                                                                      > changes unless they reach very high levels. Adding 5 fish in a
                                                                                                                                      tank with
                                                                                                                                      > only 1 fish in a go will definitely give Ammonia and nitrites.
                                                                                                                                      Nothing to
                                                                                                                                      > worry though.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Nim
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                      > >From: utacutie [mailto:utacutie@y...]
                                                                                                                                      > >Sent: 22 August 2004 19:30
                                                                                                                                      > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >Hi all,
                                                                                                                                      > >I recently added 5 green tiger barb to go along with my 1 orange
                                                                                                                                      > >tiger barb, and today got readings of .25 ammonia, and .25
                                                                                                                                      nitrite.
                                                                                                                                      > >Before this levels were: ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate: 10.
                                                                                                                                      Should
                                                                                                                                      > >I do a small water change? Thanks!
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4482 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Operation Skunk Removal was a success!

                                                                                                                                            Keep writing like that and I could disconnect from cable-television.

                                                                                                                                                                            Joe P

                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                      > Well, it took me almost an hour, but I got the 4 Skunk Botias out of
                                                                                                                                      > my discus tank and into the convict tank. And I'm soooo glad I did.
                                                                                                                                      > My "Busy Little Fish" seem much happier now that the skunks aren't
                                                                                                                                      > harrassing them. And the beasts in the convict tank won't put up with
                                                                                                                                      > those kind of antics (especially not the tiger loach) so the skunks
                                                                                                                                      > will have to be content to chase each other around, which is what I
                                                                                                                                      > love about botias anyway.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > What was most surprising about the whole ordeal was that my discus
                                                                                                                                      > seemed un-fazed by the whole thing. They only really reacted when I
                                                                                                                                      > accidently bumped them with the little nets. I guess they realized
                                                                                                                                      > that the nets I was using (two fisted) were too small to catch any of
                                                                                                                                      > them and they chose to ignore them. It actually got to the point
                                                                                                                                      > where the final skunk was cowering behind the discus for cover (He's
                                                                                                                                      > no dummy!) and I had to gently coax them out of the way.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > What I ended up doing was setting up a large net between one of the
                                                                                                                                      > big driftwood pieces and the front glass of the tank. Then I just
                                                                                                                                      > used the little nets to chase the botias into the big net.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > UGH!
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > -Sam
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4483 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                      so this am i did a cleaning of the tank as it is a week early but ill be out of town so i had to do it now... and the panda catfish is still alive and looks jsut fine.. i dont get it... at one point it seemed to be playing dead in teh tank with its belly upside down.. im like what is giong on then all the sudden it is swimming around and has been ever since... so i was wondering if anyone had ever had a catfish do this.. i mean i knwo all about fish suffering and whatnot but this is far from that... also i was wondering if changing some of the plants in the tank matters to fish.. i mean when one dies replacing it.. i had about 3 that were on the end so i took them out and moved a few around... shannon
                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4484 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                      HI T,

                                                                                                                                      Oh ok then u can add the fishes mentioned in your
                                                                                                                                      mail.

                                                                                                                                      Gradually add them but with a gap of say 1 week in
                                                                                                                                      between.

                                                                                                                                      HTH..SuNnY !

                                                                                                                                      --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                      > Sorry for that. It's 20 Gallon long and has been
                                                                                                                                      > running for about 2 months. I do 15-20% water
                                                                                                                                      > changes weekly. The tank was fishless cycled.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > T
                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                      > From: sunil kamath
                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:37 PM
                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                      > Stocking
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Hi T,
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > What size is your tank ??
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > W/o that we cannot say if its being overstocked or
                                                                                                                                      > not
                                                                                                                                      > !
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Also please advise how long the tank has been
                                                                                                                                      > running
                                                                                                                                      > ?
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Its always better to add the fishes gradually so
                                                                                                                                      > that
                                                                                                                                      > the beneficial bacteria can handle the increased
                                                                                                                                      > bioload.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > How often do you change the water is it a planted
                                                                                                                                      > tank.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Please advise the above details so it will be
                                                                                                                                      > helful
                                                                                                                                      > to advise u better.
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > ..SuNnY !
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > > Hello I have a tank that now has 1 mail and 2
                                                                                                                                      > female
                                                                                                                                      > > sword tales in it. I'm thinking of added 2
                                                                                                                                      > zebra, 2
                                                                                                                                      > > gold barbs. 3 black rubt barbs and 2 cory cats
                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                      > > this tank. Would it be over stocked?
                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                      > > T
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4485 From: Patrick Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                        Cories like to play and swim almost as much as they like to sit and play dead.  We will all hope it was playing. 
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                        so this am i did a cleaning of the tank as it is a week early but ill be out of town so i had to do it now... and the panda catfish is still alive and looks jsut fine.. i dont get it... at one point it seemed to be playing dead in teh tank with its belly upside down.. im like what is giong on then all the sudden it is swimming around and has been ever since... so i was wondering if anyone had ever had a catfish do this.. i mean i knwo all about fish suffering and whatnot but this is far from that... also i was wondering if changing some of the plants in the tank matters to fish.. i mean when one dies replacing it.. i had about 3 that were on the end so i took them out and moved a few around... shannon
                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4486 From: paul helms Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
                                                                                                                                        the eating till they burst concept originates with
                                                                                                                                        goldfish which have been know to eat as much as they
                                                                                                                                        can get, including all day from the gravel and can
                                                                                                                                        literally rupture their stomachs, they do not
                                                                                                                                        literally explode.

                                                                                                                                        --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                        > Patrick,
                                                                                                                                        > Thinking about what you said about 'many fish
                                                                                                                                        > would eat 'till they burst, I've never experienced
                                                                                                                                        > it, and noticed there was always food left-over
                                                                                                                                        > after feeding my fish. I remember from either the
                                                                                                                                        > Axelrod or Baensch Tropical fish Atlases that
                                                                                                                                        > disrupting a "captive" (my quotes) fish's feeding
                                                                                                                                        > pattern can cause stress, so I fed what I read about
                                                                                                                                        > most often, which averaged two times a day, variety,
                                                                                                                                        > and whatever I thought was enough since the
                                                                                                                                        > Corydoras' did'nt like eating unless I dfisappeared
                                                                                                                                        > after their flurry, then disappearance to food at
                                                                                                                                        > regular feeding times. As far as food being
                                                                                                                                        > available, I don't know the environment in the
                                                                                                                                        > tropics, but it sems to seethe with life, and if
                                                                                                                                        > food is as available as it would seem to be in those
                                                                                                                                        > areas, and my fish behaved in ways that, when I
                                                                                                                                        > observed, mimicked evolved, genetic behaviour,
                                                                                                                                        > regular feeding would seem appropriate. Other than
                                                                                                                                        > withdrawing food because of sick or newly introduced
                                                                                                                                        > fish for health reasons, I've never come accross
                                                                                                                                        > specific information regarding withdrawing regular
                                                                                                                                        > feeding of fish. I can imagine one would do so to
                                                                                                                                        > keep the aquarium cleaner, but that is conjecture,
                                                                                                                                        > and if true is'nt justafiable.
                                                                                                                                        > Joe P
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > thanks patrick i think im going to start doing some
                                                                                                                                        > more water changes.. and see if that helps my plants
                                                                                                                                        > as well.. thanks again.. shannon
                                                                                                                                        > Joe, you seem a little upset. I will only disagree
                                                                                                                                        > with one thing you have said, though. A lot of
                                                                                                                                        > "experts" tell us that we should only feed every
                                                                                                                                        > other day. I feed every day, but if I skip a day or
                                                                                                                                        > two I don't think much about it. Fish aren't people,
                                                                                                                                        > they only eat when food is around. If you kept food
                                                                                                                                        > around, I am sure many fish would eat until they
                                                                                                                                        > bust.
                                                                                                                                        > Shannon, I am sorry to hear about the fish. Water
                                                                                                                                        > quality is one of the causes of swim bladder
                                                                                                                                        > problems. I would also suggest 25% weekly water
                                                                                                                                        > changes for the plants. The reason is that fresh
                                                                                                                                        > water will bring the plants nutrients that they
                                                                                                                                        > don't get from just a 5% water change and a 50% each
                                                                                                                                        > month. It will keep pH more stable, too.
                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4487 From: paul helms Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                        if you mean "tiger barb" by gold barb, they are not
                                                                                                                                        community fish. any time they are classified as semi
                                                                                                                                        agressive, they really are not community safe.
                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                        --- Robb Rouse <robbrouse@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                        > Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24
                                                                                                                                        > PH 7.4 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                        > Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was
                                                                                                                                        > detectable
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my
                                                                                                                                        > tank. A Marble as well as a Koi. All seemed fine
                                                                                                                                        > for the first day or so then I notice my 2 Gold
                                                                                                                                        > Barbs were picking on the Koi. So I moved him into
                                                                                                                                        > another tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras. Well he
                                                                                                                                        > was beating up had a lot of fin damage. he died 2
                                                                                                                                        > days ago.
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has
                                                                                                                                        > died. The fins were perfect and no signs of being
                                                                                                                                        > picked on.
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could
                                                                                                                                        > of died. All the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as
                                                                                                                                        > well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine. Do you think I
                                                                                                                                        > just ended up with BAD fish? Will be setting up a
                                                                                                                                        > Quarantine tank this weekend. Should of done it
                                                                                                                                        > from the start, but didn't. Any incite would be
                                                                                                                                        > great.
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > Robb




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                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4488 From: Captain Kidd Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                        Now this fish I'm talking about can be found here http://www.elmersaquarium.com/10barb_gold.htm 
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Robb
                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 7:41 PM
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish

                                                                                                                                        if you mean "tiger barb" by gold barb, they are not
                                                                                                                                        community fish.  any time they are classified as semi
                                                                                                                                        agressive, they really are not community safe.
                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                        --- Robb Rouse <robbrouse@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                        > Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24
                                                                                                                                        > PH 7.4 since 7-26-04
                                                                                                                                        > Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was
                                                                                                                                        > detectable
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my
                                                                                                                                        > tank.  A Marble as well as a Koi.  All seemed fine
                                                                                                                                        > for the first day or so then I notice my 2 Gold
                                                                                                                                        > Barbs were picking on the Koi.  So I moved him into
                                                                                                                                        > another tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras.  Well he
                                                                                                                                        > was beating up had a lot of fin damage.  he died 2
                                                                                                                                        > days ago.
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has
                                                                                                                                        > died.  The fins were perfect and no signs of being
                                                                                                                                        > picked on.
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could
                                                                                                                                        > of died.  All the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as
                                                                                                                                        > well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine.  Do you think I
                                                                                                                                        > just ended up with BAD fish?  Will be setting up a
                                                                                                                                        > Quarantine tank this weekend.  Should of done it
                                                                                                                                        > from the start, but didn't.  Any incite would be
                                                                                                                                        > great.
                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                        > Robb



                                                                                                                                                   
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                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4489 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                        Subject: New endler fry
                                                                                                                                        hello,
                                                                                                                                        last week I found one endler baby and thought he was the only one
                                                                                                                                        now today I found 4 more, 2 of them look to only be a few days old,
                                                                                                                                        (still have the belly bulge. hehehe So I assume there must be more
                                                                                                                                        hiding in the rocks or sucked into the filter.
                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4490 From: Patrick Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...
                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                              Eat till they burst was really just an expression.  Of course they don't eat till they explode all over the place, but they can eat so much that they can get internal problems. 
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4491 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                          gosh i guess so... my others will swim around but she is a bit different.. thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                          Cories like to play and swim almost as much as they like to sit and play dead.  We will all hope it was playing. 
                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4492 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused

                                                                                                                                             Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember you never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead?  Since they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or four goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding to greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks pretty to the breeder.

                                                                                                                                                            Joe P

                                                                                                                                          -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                          so this am i did a cleaning of the tank as it is a week early but ill be out of town so i had to do it now... and the panda catfish is still alive and looks jsut fine.. i dont get it... at one point it seemed to be playing dead in teh tank with its belly upside down.. im like what is giong on then all the sudden it is swimming around and has been ever since... so i was wondering if anyone had ever had a catfish do this.. i mean i knwo all about fish suffering and whatnot but this is far from that... also i was wondering if changing some of the plants in the tank matters to fish.. i mean when one dies replacing it.. i had about 3 that were on the end so i took them out and moved a few around... shannon





                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4493 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: patrick: panda catfish...

                                                                                                                                          I understood the cliche', but used it as a point of reference.

                                                                                                                                                                   Joe P

                                                                                                                                          -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                          Eat till they burst was really just an expression. Of course they don't eat till they explode all over the place, but they can eat so much that they can get internal problems.
                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini flourecent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.






                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4494 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                          he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so odd.. shannon

                                                                                                                                          Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember you never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead?  Since they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or four goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding to greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks pretty to the breeder.

                                                                                                                                                            Joe P

                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4495 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused

                                                                                                                                             Did you know that  (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to walk short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store somewhere to augment what they metabolize through their gills?

                                                                                                                                                                      Joe P

                                                                                                                                             -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                          he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so odd.. shannon

                                                                                                                                          Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember you never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead? Since they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or four goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding to greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks pretty to the breeder.

                                                                                                                                          Joe P







                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4496 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/22/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                          And that air is absorbed through their digestive system which has a
                                                                                                                                          highly developed vascular system.
                                                                                                                                          Which explains 2 things:

                                                                                                                                          1) Why Corys are always heading to the surface for some air

                                                                                                                                          and

                                                                                                                                          2) Why Corys seem to pass wind more than the average cow.

                                                                                                                                          Cheers,
                                                                                                                                          Tim


                                                                                                                                          --
                                                                                                                                          Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                          Database Developer
                                                                                                                                          Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                          +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                          On 23/08/2004, at 2:57 PM, j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                          >    Did you know that  (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to
                                                                                                                                          > walk short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store
                                                                                                                                          > somewhere to augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >                             Joe P
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just
                                                                                                                                          > now he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to
                                                                                                                                          > the ground on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is
                                                                                                                                          > all normal... so odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I
                                                                                                                                          > remember you never did answer my question as to whether the fish was
                                                                                                                                          > alive or dead? Since they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving
                                                                                                                                          > waste could have caused problems, and he could have recovered
                                                                                                                                          > naturally to the degree possible. I had a large goldfish that went
                                                                                                                                          > belly-up periodically. It was because I introduced damage by adding
                                                                                                                                          > too much salt to the tank when treating for parasites, Did that years
                                                                                                                                          > ago when I first started. The other three or four goldfish died of
                                                                                                                                          > shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of Goldfish is
                                                                                                                                          > considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding to
                                                                                                                                          > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly,
                                                                                                                                          > swim-bladder probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so
                                                                                                                                          > the fish looks pretty to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          > Joe P
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4497 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Angel Fish

                                                                                                                                          Zebras?? What Zebras? danios or cichlids? Ideally, all barbs and danios should be in a school of 6 or more. Although gold barb is one of the most peaceful of the barbs but just having 2 may take out their inner monster on other fish. Gold barbs are also not massive chasers like Tiger barbs and are much mellower in attitude. It is very much possible that you had one spoilt specimen and it converted the other one too (bad things are easier to learn then good – stands for the fish too).

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          If the Zebras are cichlids, then I am surprised that the Angels managed live even a month with them.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          How big are the angels? I have previously in an experiment kept a large male Koi angel in a 15 gal tank for 2 months that had no hiding space and 12 tiger barbs. This particular angel was (oops I mean “is”) so aggressive that even a school of 12 tigers kept their distance and eventually had to give away the barbs to prevent them from being killed. The fish store I returned them to said that they took more then a month to recover their colour back and were terribly scared of even small angels :-s so it could be a bad specimen.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Nim

                                                                                                                                          Ps: Tigers barbs and other barbs are not bad community fish. They just cannot be had in every community.

                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                          From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                          Sent: 21 August 2004 03:04
                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04

                                                                                                                                          Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24

                                                                                                                                          PH 7.4 since 7-26-04

                                                                                                                                          Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was detectable

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my tank.  A Marble as well as a Koi.  All seemed fine for the first day or so then I notice my 2 Gold Barbs were picking on the Koi.  So I moved him into another tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras.  Well he was beating up had a lot of fin damage.  he died 2 days ago.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has died.  The fins were perfect and no signs of being picked on.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could of died.  All the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine.  Do you think I just ended up with BAD fish?  Will be setting up a Quarantine tank this weekend.  Should of done it from the start, but d idn 't.  Any incite would be great.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Robb



                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4498 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Starting a plant aquarium
                                                                                                                                          Hello!
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          First and foremost, buy aquarium lights (either the pricey branded ones or daylight-temperature fluorescents; they both work well. The pricey ones just give more specific color temperature and better color definition) such that you have 3-4 watts per gallon (a rule of thumb for convenience). Halogens are brighter but are hotter, eat up more electricity and would require a distance of at least 1 foot from the water's surface. Aquarium hoods for fluorescents are aplenty and if you are a DIY kind of person, you can build yourself a hood for compact fluorescent to pack in more lights. Aquarium lights are the most important equipment for planted tanks.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          I'm a proponent of the soil-substrate planted tank. Although there are companies out there that sell good ready-made aquarium substrate for planted tanks, you can make your own provided you have a source of old potting soil (not the soil-less planting media, mind you!) or garden soil that has been covered with grass for months. Just wash it several times to remove the lighter particles and organic debris that float longer and make the water cloudy, leaving the silty, heavier particles. You may opt to let it dry afterwards in the sun to bake and disinfect it or use it directly. You can choose to just lay 2 inches of soil and cover it with 1/2" to 1" of round sand or fine gravel but if you plan to grow a low-growing carpet, it best to just use soil. Using just sand or gravel will require adding amendments as sand and gravel are very poor in nutrients and do not provide a suitable medium for plants with very fine and small roots. Or you can sink in potted filled with soil into the gravel and set you aquarium plants there. Or you may opt for plants that do not require a substrate, such as aquatic mosses, Java fern, Bolbitis, and anubias.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Since I'm pushing for a soil substrate, undergravel filters are out of the question. I suggest you use an external filter: overhead, hanging or canister, for ease of maintenance and so as not to disturb the soil. Choose one wherein you can direct the return flow sideways for better water circulation. An outflow with a Venturi nozzle is preferable so that you can either inject air or CO2 into the outflow. An external filter also means you can maximize the area for planting. If you plan to have a very low fish load (say 1" of fish per 2 or more gallons), you may even opt to remove the filter once you have the tank in equilibrium and the plants thriving and just retain the pump for water circulation.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Know what the pH and hardness of your local water. It will affect your choice of plants and save you from the cost of always buying water conditioners.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Plant outright and plant heavily. You can float fast growing expendables such as hornwort and elodea to suck up nitrogen and phosphorus. Just periodically harvest the old ends and put back young ends back in the tank and never let them root into the substrate. When the intended plants for the tank have established themselves and the water has become crystal clear, you can remove the hornwort and elodea. When positioning large plants, make sure they are where you want them to be; they often grow real fast in soil and the roots spread deep and wide. To remove them without mucking up your tank, your only choice would be to cut all its roots. Since you're planning on a 40 or 50 gallon tank, planting pincers is another good investment so you can minimize disturbance of the substrate when planting and make it easy to insert small plants such as hairgrass and tenellus into the soil.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Good starter plants are bacopas, hemianthus, sagittarias, vallisnerias, aquatic mosses, Java fern, anubias, medium-sized cryptocorynes (the large and dwarf cryptocorynes are often difficult to take care of), hygrophilas, Asian aponogetons, elodea, hornwort and lagarosiphon. Not all echinodorus are easy and some do not do well in soft, acidic water or with other echinodoruses. The varieties I have found versatile and durable are E. barthii and osiris. Water lilies have a strong tendency to send up floating leaves and making them stay underwater  requires daily vigilance and a handy pair of scissors.

                                                                                                                                          Keep a light fishload and include a scavenger and algae-eating species. My favorites are dwarf pencilfish, otocinclus and flagfish. Do not overfeed and, unless you have heavy feeders like the large echinodoruses and cryptocorynes and red stem plants, the fish waste will suffice as fertilizer and you'll only need to add fertilizer during water changes TO REPLENISH, NOT ADD the nutrients lost. When you've gained more experience, perhaps you can add a CO2 feed, crank up the lights and tinker with regular dosing of fertilizers. It's tempting to use fertilizers but you might just end up with an algae-filled tank.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          The catch in a soil-bottom tank? You're more likely to develop bacteria bloom (milky water) and green water (free-floating algae) than with other substrates. You should not disturb the substrate as much as possible. And if you can't help it, add shrimp and algae-eaters to dust off the mud from the leaves. But the plants should be able to establish themselves quicker in the fine substrate and with healthy plants, the water will soon clear up as well.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Hi
                                                                                                                                          I would like to start an aquarium with only plants in it for at least
                                                                                                                                          a few months and than maybe start adding a few fish later.
                                                                                                                                          I was hoping someone could give me some advice on how to get started,
                                                                                                                                          what plants to buy and best equipment to use.
                                                                                                                                          I was thinking about a tank between 40 and 50 gallons. Any advice
                                                                                                                                          would be greatly appreciated and thankyou in advance for any help
                                                                                                                                          that you can give me.
                                                                                                                                          Ron


                                                                                                                                                  





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                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4499 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Plant issues...
                                                                                                                                          I'm guessing that it's low calcium or magnsium or potassium. It's just a guess though. How old are the plants and what plants are they?
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Rod

                                                                                                                                          devileye72 <sfreeman72@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                          Ok, I've done alot of reading on how to have an attractive planted
                                                                                                                                          aquarium, but I'm having lots of problems. My plants get lots of new
                                                                                                                                          growth, but are constantly turning yellow. It can't be a CO2 issue,
                                                                                                                                          or they wouldn't be growing at all, right?

                                                                                                                                          I suspected low Iron, but I put in iron enriched fertilizers to no
                                                                                                                                          avail.

                                                                                                                                          I also thought that my high dH might have something to do with it,
                                                                                                                                          but even after reducing it by 50%, the plants are still turning
                                                                                                                                          yellow.

                                                                                                                                          My PH hovers right at 6.8, which I wouldn't think would be a problem.

                                                                                                                                          I've got full spectrum daylight bulbs, so light shouldn't be an issue
                                                                                                                                          either.

                                                                                                                                          I've even added laterite to the gravel.

                                                                                                                                          Any thoughts on what else I might try?

                                                                                                                                          -Sam






                                                                                                                                                  



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                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4500 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                          I agree about the zebra danios, they tend to be nippy when not in groups of at least 5-6. Not all barbs are fin nippers...for example, cherry barbs and belted barbs are not. Cories like to be in school of at least 5-6, the more the better and happier they are.
                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                          From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:21 PM
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Stocking

                                                                                                                                              Zebra danios need to be in large groups.  Don't get barbs, they are fin nippers in small numbers, get 8 -10 zebra danios and 4-5 cories.  Like the others said, do this slowly, 2 fish per week.  there will be a small spike in those two chemicals, which is why the fish have to be added slowly.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4501 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Stocking
                                                                                                                                          Not necessarily true. Very many of the commonly available cories average in the 2-2.5" range. There are quite a few larger; barbatus grow to around 4".
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          cory cats are very small bottom feeders..
                                                                                                                                          about an inch,  inch & half..in size..
                                                                                                                                          I have two for my tank.. albino cory cats..
                                                                                                                                          love them..
                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4502 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: netting fish (was Operation Skunk Removal)
                                                                                                                                          One of the worst fish I've ever had to net are kuhlis!


                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                          From: "devileye72" <sfreeman72@...>

                                                                                                                                          > Well, it took me almost an hour, but I got the 4 Skunk Botias out of
                                                                                                                                          > my discus tank and into the convict tank. And I'm soooo glad I did.
                                                                                                                                          > My "Busy Little Fish" seem much happier now that the skunks aren't
                                                                                                                                          > harrassing them. And the beasts in the convict tank won't put up with
                                                                                                                                          > those kind of antics (especially not the tiger loach) so the skunks
                                                                                                                                          > will have to be content to chase each other around, which is what I
                                                                                                                                          > love about botias anyway.
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          > What was most surprising about the whole ordeal was that my discus
                                                                                                                                          > seemed un-fazed by the whole thing. They only really reacted when I
                                                                                                                                          > accidently bumped them with the little nets. I guess they realized
                                                                                                                                          > that the nets I was using (two fisted) were too small to catch any of
                                                                                                                                          > them and they chose to ignore them. It actually got to the point
                                                                                                                                          > where the final skunk was cowering behind the discus for cover (He's
                                                                                                                                          > no dummy!) and I had to gently coax them out of the way.
                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                          > What I ended up doing was setting up a large net between one of the
                                                                                                                                          > big driftwood pieces and the front glass of the tank. Then I just
                                                                                                                                          > used the little nets to chase the botias into the big net.
                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4503 From: harry perry Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: A new group!! Species maintenance group.
                                                                                                                                          Come join us. Our goal is to distribute both information and fish. 15 new species discovered in the last few years. Vist the file section to see what all the interest is about.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Harry

                                                                                                                                          __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4504 From: Robb Rouse Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Angel Fish
                                                                                                                                          They were Zebra Dinios,  I'm thinking of adding 3 more gold barbs and 3 more Zebras to start with.
                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                          Robb
                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:52 AM
                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish

                                                                                                                                          Zebras?? What Zebras? danios or cichlids? Ideally, all barbs and danios should be in a school of 6 or more. Although gold barb is one of the most peaceful of the barbs but just having 2 may take out their inner monster on other fish. Gold barbs are also not massive chasers like Tiger barbs and are much mellower in attitude. It is very much possible that you had one spoilt specimen and it converted the other one too (bad things are easier to learn then good – stands for the fish too).

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          If the Zebras are cichlids, then I am surprised that the Angels managed live even a month with them.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          How big are the angels? I have previously in an experiment kept a large male Koi angel in a 15 gal tank for 2 months that had no hiding space and 12 tiger barbs. This particular angel was (oops I mean “is”) so aggressive that even a school of 12 tigers kept their distance and eventually had to give away the barbs to prevent them from being killed. The fish store I returned them to said that they took more then a month to recover their colour back and were terribly scared of even small angels :-s so it could be a bad specimen.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Nim

                                                                                                                                          Ps: Tigers barbs and other barbs are not bad community fish. They just cannot be had in every community.

                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                          From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                          Sent: 21 August 2004 03:04
                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Ammonia 0 since 7-26-04

                                                                                                                                          Nitrite 0 Since 8-8-24

                                                                                                                                          PH 7.4 since 7-26-04

                                                                                                                                          Nitrate 20 - Been between 15 and 30 since it was detectable

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          I went out 8-14-04 and added 2 angel fish to my tank.  A Marble as well as a Koi.  All seemed fine for the first day or so then I notice my 2 Gold Barbs were picking on the Koi.  So I moved him into another tank that had 5 Black Neon Tetras.  Well he was beating up had a lot of fin damage.  he died 2 days ago.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Now I come home from work tonight and my Marble has died.  The fins were perfect and no signs of being picked on.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Can anyone come up with any reason these fish could of died.  All the other tank mates 2 gold barbs as well as 2 Zebra's are doing fine.  Do you think I just ended up with BAD fish?  Will be setting up a Quarantine tank this weekend.  Should of done it from the start, but d idn 't.  Any incite would be great.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Robb



                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4505 From: utacutie Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Question on Gourami
                                                                                                                                          I just got a gourami (pearl) and added it along w/ my 6
                                                                                                                                          barbs...everyone seems to be doing great so far, no signs of
                                                                                                                                          aggression. The gourami seems to hold her own and the barbs have
                                                                                                                                          learned to stay out of her way. One thing I noticed that I had a
                                                                                                                                          question on though was that I saw some bubbles come out of what
                                                                                                                                          looked to be her gills. Is this normal? I know they are labrynth
                                                                                                                                          fish and have a special organ to breathe, but I had never heard of
                                                                                                                                          this. Please tell me if this is normal! Thanks,

                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                          29g: 5 green tiger barbs, 1 orange tiger barb, 1 pearl gourami
                                                                                                                                          Ammonia: .25ppm, Nitrite: .25 (due to adding new fish a few days
                                                                                                                                          ago), but all levels were 0 before
                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4506 From: Patrick Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Question on Gourami
                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                It's normal.  They breath in the air, and extra air comes back out through the gills or mouth.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                            I just got a gourami (pearl) and added it along w/ my 6
                                                                                                                                            barbs...everyone seems to be doing great so far, no signs of
                                                                                                                                            aggression. The gourami seems to hold her own and the barbs have
                                                                                                                                            learned to stay out of her way. One thing I noticed that I had a
                                                                                                                                            question on though was that I saw some bubbles come out of what
                                                                                                                                            looked to be her gills. Is this normal? I know they are labrynth
                                                                                                                                            fish and have a special organ to breathe, but I had never heard of
                                                                                                                                            this. Please tell me if this is normal! Thanks,

                                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                                            29g: 5 green tiger barbs, 1 orange tiger barb, 1 pearl gourami
                                                                                                                                            Ammonia: .25ppm, Nitrite: .25 (due to adding new fish a few days
                                                                                                                                            ago), but all levels were 0 before
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4507 From: utacutie Date: 8/23/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Question on Gourami
                                                                                                                                            Thanks, it just looked a little funny at first :) It's so nice to
                                                                                                                                            have a tank w/ some fish in it!!! What fun, I have been showing it
                                                                                                                                            off to my friends and now they want to start up aquariums of their
                                                                                                                                            own! Once the levels stabilize, how long would yall recommend
                                                                                                                                            waiting to vacuum the gravel. I planned on only doing half a side at
                                                                                                                                            a time. Thanks,
                                                                                                                                            Erin


                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                                                                                                                                            <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                            > It's normal. They breath in the air, and extra air comes back
                                                                                                                                            out
                                                                                                                                            > through the gills or mouth.
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                            juli
                                                                                                                                            > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                            not
                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                            java ferns,
                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                            sponge
                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                            > I just got a gourami (pearl) and added it along w/ my 6
                                                                                                                                            > barbs...everyone seems to be doing great so far, no signs of
                                                                                                                                            > aggression. The gourami seems to hold her own and the barbs have
                                                                                                                                            > learned to stay out of her way. One thing I noticed that I had a
                                                                                                                                            > question on though was that I saw some bubbles come out of what
                                                                                                                                            > looked to be her gills. Is this normal? I know they are labrynth
                                                                                                                                            > fish and have a special organ to breathe, but I had never heard of
                                                                                                                                            > this. Please tell me if this is normal! Thanks,
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                            > 29g: 5 green tiger barbs, 1 orange tiger barb, 1 pearl gourami
                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia: .25ppm, Nitrite: .25 (due to adding new fish a few days
                                                                                                                                            > ago), but all levels were 0 before
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4508 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: I'm back
                                                                                                                                            Greetings and happy monday,
                                                                                                                                            My name is mark and I have been in aquaria for about 30 yrs.
                                                                                                                                            My main field of interest is labyrinth fishes and mollusk (mostly saltwater "Snails").

                                                                                                                                            I'm currently conducting a genetics program with paradise fish (Macropodus Opercularis) using wild caught stock from Thailand(3F, 2M). They and the most beautiful specimens I've ever seen. The "Bars" are very deep in color, finnage is long and graceful. One specimen has so much finnage that the anal fin extends well past the Caudal fin.
                                                                                                                                            Another group which are larger come from Southern Korea (4F, 2M) to assure me that there would be no chance what so ever of introducing related specimens.

                                                                                                                                            Other genetics programs are using the family trichogaster, T Leeri/Pectoralis  T Leeri/Microlepis in crossbreeding.
                                                                                                                                            I figure that these species are so closely related that there is a good chance that I would produce at least a 25-50% fertile hybrid rate.

                                                                                                                                            Lastly, I'm using above ground (200-500 gallon) outdoor ponds. These have NO filtration or air supply. They are socked with underwater and floating plants, the micro organisms are plentiful, the water is within acceptable limits and the ponds have taken up a natural cycle so there seems to be a balanced system of waste control and ability to keep fry fed with daphnia and ofther tiny foods. The subtrate in the ponds is made up of a 50/50 combo of coral sand and virgin alluvial clay. the sand keeps the mud from clumping and holding hydrated gases, I also added about a 1/4 pound of live black worms to thge substrate to keep the waste unter control and feed the adults. It's amazing how weel a pound can do if we stop putting our hands in the proccess and let nature take over. BTW, my fry are now numbering about 100 @ 30 mm long../

                                                                                                                                            Well thank you for letting me join . I hope I will be able to help in some manner.

                                                                                                                                            Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                            Northridge CA,
                                                                                                                                            mbethke@...
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4509 From: The Dude Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: New Fish Tank Group
                                                                                                                                            Hey all, I made this new group so it would be smaller and have faster
                                                                                                                                            response times to questions. Check it out. Pros please stop in from
                                                                                                                                            time to time to assist with inquiries. Thank you for anything.

                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tiny_Bubbles/

                                                                                                                                            The Dude
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4510 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Pleco Info
                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                            Just wanted to find out info on the following types of pleco's a Marble Pleco, Rhino Pleco, and a Blue Phantom pleco. Size, temperment, diet, etc.  
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4511 From: Daniel Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                            Beware!!!!.... About 3 months ago, I bought a male and a female
                                                                                                                                            convict cichlid. Since then, the have already had babies twice and
                                                                                                                                            are getting ready for another batch...it's only been 3 months! LOL I
                                                                                                                                            knew they had a lot of babies, but this is crazy! They are
                                                                                                                                            overtaking my tank. I was going to use them as feeder fish, but they
                                                                                                                                            are just too cute! So anyway, my question is... am I going to have a
                                                                                                                                            problem with the brothers and sisters breeding with each other down
                                                                                                                                            the road? And also, does anyone know how to neuter a fish??? JK :-)
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4512 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Pleco Info
                                                                                                                                            Marble Pleco gets to 18" or 19". The Rhino pleco gets to about 11" and I believe the Blue Phantom Pleco gets to somewhere over 6", at least the the largest I've seen. Maybe someone else might be aware if they get larger. As far as I know all these Pleco's are even tempered, but the large ones naturally require a good size tank. They all do well on Algae (of course), sinking pellets and/or wafers. Spirulina flakes and vegetable matter such as parboiled zucchini.
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4513 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                            As soon as the brothers and sisters mature they will start pairing off and having young of their own. Something like The Sorcerer's Apprentice (early Micky Mouse) who couldn't control the multiplying brooms, if you are familiar with that fabled story. I don't know of anyway to neuter a fish short of passing it through an X-Ray machine at the airport and then I don't know if that's 100% guaranteed. Better start selling the young when they're still young and separating the parents.
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4514 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                            It was the same when i kept firemouths they wouldn't stop breeding....lol
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Sarah 
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Date: 08/24/04 20:25:29
                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Beware!!!!.... About 3 months ago, I bought a male and a female
                                                                                                                                            convict cichlid. Since then, the have already had babies twice and
                                                                                                                                            are getting ready for another batch...it's only been 3 months! LOL I
                                                                                                                                            knew they had a lot of babies, but this is crazy! They are
                                                                                                                                            overtaking my tank. I was going to use them as feeder fish, but they
                                                                                                                                            are just too cute! So anyway, my question is... am I going to have a
                                                                                                                                            problem with the brothers and sisters breeding with each other down
                                                                                                                                            the road? And also, does anyone know how to neuter a fish??? JK :-)
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                             
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                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4515 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                            feeders would be about the best use sorry to tell you this -Dave
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4516 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                            Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix for a week now without much change.

                                                                                                                                            Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20 ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).

                                                                                                                                            This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.

                                                                                                                                            I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I really thought I had better get experience with easier fish first... which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would be), and the combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.

                                                                                                                                            I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.

                                                                                                                                            Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here... thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4517 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                            I had jellybean parrot fish that were continuously having babies. I bought 2 convicts at the lfs. I thought it would be neat to breed them. lol They terrorize my parrot fish and if I see eggs they soon disappear. I have 2 female convicts.when I had so many fry, I traded them at the lfs for other fish. I also eventually decided to sell them. I sold 68 babies.I could have sold more if I had them. the convicts were the solution to my breeding problem.
                                                                                                                                            Dorothy

                                                                                                                                            sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                            As soon as the brothers and sisters mature they will start pairing off and having young of their own. Something like The Sorcerer's Apprentice (early Micky Mouse) who couldn't control the multiplying brooms, if you are familiar with that fabled story. I don't know of anyway to neuter a fish short of passing it through an X-Ray machine at the airport and then I don't know if that's 100% guaranteed. Better start selling the young when they're still young and separating the parents.

                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4518 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                            Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do hope you can get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and could you test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two places you might find that you have something causing your own ph to be so high. 7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)

                                                                                                                                            Did say what other fish you have besides the white clouds (which instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                            Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae Eaters" which isn't their manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                            I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys, yea they are cute when you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow into giants and chase, harass and torture their tank mates and trying to rid them usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore up. So word to the wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                            Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B

                                                                                                                                            Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                            Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix for a week now without much change.

                                                                                                                                            Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20 ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).

                                                                                                                                            This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.

                                                                                                                                            I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I really thought I had better get experience with easier fish first... which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would be), and the combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.

                                                                                                                                            I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.

                                                                                                                                            Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here... thanks! Audrey



                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4519 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died

                                                                                                                                            All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive territorialists. My Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned the tank and would'nt hurt a fly.

                                                                                                                                                           Joe P

                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                            Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do hope you can get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and could you test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two places you might find that you have something causing your own ph to be so high. 7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)

                                                                                                                                            Did say what other fish you have besides the white clouds (which instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                            Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae Eaters" which isn't their manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                            I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys, yea they are cute when you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow into giants and chase, harass and torture their tank mates and trying to rid them usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore up. So word to the wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                            Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B

                                                                                                                                            Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                            Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix for a week now without much change.

                                                                                                                                            Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20 ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).

                                                                                                                                            This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.

                                                                                                                                            I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I really thought I had better get experience with easier fish first... which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would be), and the combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.

                                                                                                                                            I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.

                                                                                                                                            Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here... thanks! Audrey













                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4520 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                            You are unique then, you want me to round up about 100 other fishkeepers to inform the group want they are "Normally" like?????
                                                                                                                                            Even your docile obvious prozac subspecies is a a 1 in a 1,000,000. so be happy FOR NOW, hope the3 fish stay nice. Mark

                                                                                                                                            j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                            All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive territorialists. My Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned the tank and would'nt hurt a fly.

                                                                                                                                                           Joe P

                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                            Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do hope you can get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and could you test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two places you might find that you have something causing your own ph to be so high. 7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)

                                                                                                                                            Did say what other fish you have besides the white clouds (which instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                            Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae Eaters" which isn't their manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                            I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys, yea they are cute when you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow into giants and chase, harass and torture their tank mates and trying to rid them usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore up. So word to the wise, don't ! trust them.
                                                                                                                                            Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B

                                                                                                                                            Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                            Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix for a week now without much change.

                                                                                                                                            Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20 ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c water, and 1 pkg dr! y yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).

                                                                                                                                            This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.

                                                                                                                                            I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I really thought I had better get experie! nce with easier fish first... which I thought Anabantids and White Clo uds would be), and the combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.

                                                                                                                                            I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.

                                                                                                                                            Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here... thanks! Audrey















                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4521 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                            I'll put up a positive vote for the Siamese Algae Eater - SAE -
                                                                                                                                            Crossocheilos siamensis which doesn't usually do that either. However
                                                                                                                                            the Chinese Algae Eater is notorious for 2 things; not eating algae and
                                                                                                                                            nibbling on other fish. There are also Flying Fox's and False Algae
                                                                                                                                            Eaters which have variations of all those behaviours.
                                                                                                                                            --
                                                                                                                                            Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                            Database Developer
                                                                                                                                            Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                            +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                            On 25/08/2004, at 11:19 AM, j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                            > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                            > Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                            > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >                Joe P
                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                            > Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do hope you can get
                                                                                                                                            > that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and could you test it at
                                                                                                                                            > a neighbors? If you can test at two places you might find that you
                                                                                                                                            > have something causing your own ph to be so high. 7.2-7.4 is norm for
                                                                                                                                            > municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Did say what other fish you have besides the white clouds (which
                                                                                                                                            > instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                            > Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae Eaters" which isn't their
                                                                                                                                            > manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                            > I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys, yea they are cute when
                                                                                                                                            > you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow into giants and
                                                                                                                                            > chase, harass and torture their tank mates and trying to rid them
                                                                                                                                            > usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore up. So word to the
                                                                                                                                            > wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                            > Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that
                                                                                                                                            > my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the
                                                                                                                                            > gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what
                                                                                                                                            > appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what
                                                                                                                                            > appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix
                                                                                                                                            > for a week now without much change.
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the
                                                                                                                                            > water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the
                                                                                                                                            > tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2
                                                                                                                                            > generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up
                                                                                                                                            > again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always,
                                                                                                                                            > and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                            > ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                            > water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda
                                                                                                                                            > bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie,
                                                                                                                                            > propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found
                                                                                                                                            > that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but
                                                                                                                                            > I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my
                                                                                                                                            > freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I
                                                                                                                                            > treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie
                                                                                                                                            > out.
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped
                                                                                                                                            > drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH
                                                                                                                                            > 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank
                                                                                                                                            > since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is
                                                                                                                                            > 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                            > tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I
                                                                                                                                            > really thought I had better get experience with easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                            > which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would be), and the
                                                                                                                                            > combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in
                                                                                                                                            > May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought
                                                                                                                                            > it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the
                                                                                                                                            > CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake
                                                                                                                                            > tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge
                                                                                                                                            > had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.)
                                                                                                                                            > Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            > Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here...
                                                                                                                                            > thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4522 From: Patrick Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                              Are you saying that ottos are not a peaceful algae eater, Mark? 
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4523 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                              Aw, what ignorance I show when I fall into the trap of using common names, duh to me<:~)

                                                                                                                                              Yea , I guess I show have been clear about species. But then it's all in the digital diary now, will my words come back to haunt me latter in life?
                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the help Tim, Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                              Tim Walker wrote:
                                                                                                                                              I'll put up a positive vote for the Siamese Algae Eater - SAE - Crossocheilos siamensis which doesn't usually do that either. However the Chinese Algae Eater is notorious for 2 things; not eating algae and nibbling on other fish. There are also Flying Fox's and False Algae Eaters which have variations of all those behaviours.
                                                                                                                                              --
                                                                                                                                              Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                              Database Developer
                                                                                                                                              Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                              +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                              On 25/08/2004, at 11:19 AM, j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                              All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive territorialists. My Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned the tank and would'nt hurt a fly.

                                                                                                                                                             Joe P
                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                              Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do hope you can get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and could you test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two places you might find that you have something causing your own ph to be so high. 7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)

                                                                                                                                              Did say what other fish you have besides the white clouds (which instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                              Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae Eaters" which isn't their manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                              I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys, yea they are cute when you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow into giants and chase, harass and torture their tank mates and trying to rid them usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore up. So word to the wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                              Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B

                                                                                                                                              Audrey Archer wrote:

                                                                                                                                              Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix for a week now without much change.

                                                                                                                                              Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20 ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).

                                                                                                                                              This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.

                                                                                                                                              I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I really thought I had better get experience with easier fish first... which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would be), and the combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.

                                                                                                                                              I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.

                                                                                                                                              Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here... thanks! Audrey















                                                                                                                                                      







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                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4524 From: paul helms Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                              eventually you will begin to lose color and have some
                                                                                                                                              deformity, probably 5 generations down or so.

                                                                                                                                              --- Daniel <gaboyy20@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                              > Beware!!!!.... About 3 months ago, I bought a male
                                                                                                                                              > and a female
                                                                                                                                              > convict cichlid. Since then, the have already had
                                                                                                                                              > babies twice and
                                                                                                                                              > are getting ready for another batch...it's only been
                                                                                                                                              > 3 months! LOL I
                                                                                                                                              > knew they had a lot of babies, but this is crazy!
                                                                                                                                              > They are
                                                                                                                                              > overtaking my tank. I was going to use them as
                                                                                                                                              > feeder fish, but they
                                                                                                                                              > are just too cute! So anyway, my question is... am I
                                                                                                                                              > going to have a
                                                                                                                                              > problem with the brothers and sisters breeding with
                                                                                                                                              > each other down
                                                                                                                                              > the road? And also, does anyone know how to neuter a
                                                                                                                                              > fish??? JK :-)
                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4525 From: paul helms Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                              Subject: mark
                                                                                                                                              mark are you saying that ottos are aggressive, or that
                                                                                                                                              chinese algae eaters are agressive, or that all algae
                                                                                                                                              eaters are?

                                                                                                                                              --- "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                              > You are unique then, you want me to round up about
                                                                                                                                              > 100 other fishkeepers
                                                                                                                                              > to inform the group want they are "Normally"
                                                                                                                                              > like?????
                                                                                                                                              > Even your docile obvious prozac subspecies is a a 1
                                                                                                                                              > in a 1,000,000. so
                                                                                                                                              > be happy FOR NOW, hope the3 fish stay nice. Mark
                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                              > j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                              > > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                              > territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                              > > Otto's were docile, unconcerned when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                              > the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                              > > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                              > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                              > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                              > > Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot,
                                                                                                                                              > I do hope you can
                                                                                                                                              > > get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at
                                                                                                                                              > tap? and could you
                                                                                                                                              > > test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two
                                                                                                                                              > places you might
                                                                                                                                              > > find that you have something causing your own
                                                                                                                                              > ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                              > > 7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is
                                                                                                                                              > alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                              > > Did say what other fish you have besides the
                                                                                                                                              > white clouds (which
                                                                                                                                              > > instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                              > > Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                              > Eaters" which isn't
                                                                                                                                              > > their manner, the only thing they don't eat is
                                                                                                                                              > ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                              > > I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                              > yea they are cute
                                                                                                                                              > > when you get them as tiny guys but very soon
                                                                                                                                              > they grow into giants
                                                                                                                                              > > and chase, harass and torture their tank mates
                                                                                                                                              > and trying to rid
                                                                                                                                              > > them usually leaves you fustrated and your
                                                                                                                                              > tank tore up. So word
                                                                                                                                              > > to the wise, don't ! trust them.
                                                                                                                                              > > Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                              > > Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                              > >> Well, I appear to have had a strange change
                                                                                                                                              > in water parameters
                                                                                                                                              > >> that my weak female dwarf gourami just
                                                                                                                                              > couldn't cope with; both
                                                                                                                                              > >> of the gouramis had what appeared to be
                                                                                                                                              > wounds - round holes and
                                                                                                                                              > >> what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal
                                                                                                                                              > fins, and male has
                                                                                                                                              > >> what appears to be small cuts on one side,
                                                                                                                                              > which I am treating
                                                                                                                                              > >> with Melafix for a week now without much
                                                                                                                                              > change.
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >> Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water
                                                                                                                                              > change Saturday,
                                                                                                                                              > >> because the water parameters appeared to be
                                                                                                                                              > great and I was
                                                                                                                                              > >> concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry
                                                                                                                                              > getting sucked up in
                                                                                                                                              > >> the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had
                                                                                                                                              > stopped giving off
                                                                                                                                              > >> bubbles and the pH was creeping up again,
                                                                                                                                              > back up to 7.6, but my
                                                                                                                                              > >> ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and
                                                                                                                                              > nitrates (thanks to an
                                                                                                                                              > >> overabundance of plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                              > ppm. So I made a fresh
                                                                                                                                              > >> CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                              > water, and 1 pkg
                                                                                                                                              > >> dr! y yeast floated on top in a 2 litre
                                                                                                                                              > washed soda bottle, with
                                                                                                                                              > >> an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into
                                                                                                                                              > the tank).
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >> This evening I found my last of the three
                                                                                                                                              > female gouramis,
                                                                                                                                              > >> Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and
                                                                                                                                              > when I netted her
                                                                                                                                              > >> out, I found that she was bleeding from just
                                                                                                                                              > below one gill. It
                                                                                                                                              > >> broke my heart, but I felt it best to
                                                                                                                                              > euthanize her in some water
                                                                                                                                              > >> in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see
                                                                                                                                              > her continue to
                                                                                                                                              > >> suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank
                                                                                                                                              > with Melafix and
                                                                                                                                              > >> Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >> I tested my water parameters again and found
                                                                                                                                              > my pH had dropped
                                                                                                                                              > >> drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates
                                                                                                                                              > both tested 0, GH
                                                                                                                                              > >> 150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused
                                                                                                                                              > this sudden
                                                                                                                                              > >> acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could
                                                                                                                                              > the Melafix have done
                                                                                                                                              > >> this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I
                                                                                                                                              > wanted an African
                                                                                                                                              > >> cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too
                                                                                                                                              > small for those I
                                                                                                                                              > >> found available at the time, and I really
                                                                                                                                              > thought I had better
                                                                                                                                              > >> get experie! nce with easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                              > which I thought
                                                                                                                                              > >> Anabantids and White Clo uds would be), and
                                                                                                                                              > the combination of
                                                                                                                                              > >> the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of
                                                                                                                                              > driftwood in May, and
                                                                                                                                              > >> the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in
                                                                                                                                              > July had brought it
                                                                                                                                              > >> to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't
                                                                                                                                              > expect the new mix for
                                                                                                                                              > >> the CO2 generator to cause this much of a
                                                                                                                                              > change.
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >> I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I
                                                                                                                                              > scrubbed out my
                                                                                                                                              > >> intake tube and impeller, which helped the
                                                                                                                                              > flow considerably.
                                                                                                                                              > >> (The cartridge had very little debris on it,
                                                                                                                                              > I guess because of
                                                                                                                                              > >> the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank
                                                                                                                                              > is now very active,
                                                                                                                                              > >> including the fry.
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >> Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure
                                                                                                                                              > use some help here...
                                                                                                                                              > >> thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                              > >>
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                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4526 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                              Aw I blew it , I had the species mixed up, I really blew it by not waiting until the morning since it's martini hour. So you got me there. Anyways, the ottos of which the gin has my arm to tired to reach for axelrods book to dig it up is the little guys that are peaceful, hardly ever seen and work away at algae right????
                                                                                                                                              If yes then I did mix them up, again, I usually don't answer messages at martini hour and anytime there after. it's time to identify a new creature found in the outdoor pond, a real nasty thing that resembles my X-wife, I could only imagine that by the shape of the jaws it's going to eat many fry, so I must find what it is , then spend tomorrow ridding the pond of them, and hopefully extract all the larger fry for the grow-out tanks. well cheers to all, have a drink and good night,

                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke, "Shaken not stired"

                                                                                                                                              Patrick wrote:
                                                                                                                                              Are you saying that ottos are not a peaceful algae eater, Mark? 
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.





                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4527 From: Patrick Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                    My ottos are peaceful, but I still don't trust them.  It is the ones that seem peaceful that always seem to get you. :)  Good luck on your mission to rid your pond of those fry eaters.  But don't try to do it until morning or you could fall in with them.
                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                Aw I blew it , I had the species mixed up, I really blew it by not waiting until the morning since it's martini hour. So you got me there. Anyways, the ottos of which the gin has my arm to tired to reach for axelrods book to dig it up is the little guys that are peaceful, hardly ever seen and work away at algae right????
                                                                                                                                                If yes then I did mix them up, again, I usually don't answer messages at martini hour and anytime there after. it's time to identify a new creature found in the outdoor pond, a real nasty thing that resembles my X-wife, I could only imagine that by the shape of the jaws it's going to eat many fry, so I must find what it is , then spend tomorrow ridding the pond of them, and hopefully extract all the larger fry for the grow-out tanks. well cheers to all, have a drink and good night,

                                                                                                                                                Mark J. Bethke, "Shaken not stired"
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4528 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                Ahh no. I just did a lot of reading on them a few months ago before I
                                                                                                                                                went searching for some true Siamese Algae Eaters specifically because
                                                                                                                                                they only eat algae and don't normally get too aggressive. I now have 3
                                                                                                                                                in my tank and I have never EVER had algae problems. They are a highly
                                                                                                                                                recommended from my experience.


                                                                                                                                                --
                                                                                                                                                Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                On 23/08/2004, at 1:36 PM, Mark J. Bethke wrote:

                                                                                                                                                > Aw, what ignorance I show when I fall into the trap of using common
                                                                                                                                                > names, duh to me<:~)
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Yea , I guess I show have been clear about species. But then it's all
                                                                                                                                                > in the digital diary now, will my words come back to haunt me latter
                                                                                                                                                > in life?
                                                                                                                                                > Thanks for the help Tim, Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Tim Walker wrote:
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > I'll put up a positive vote for the Siamese Algae Eater - SAE -
                                                                                                                                                > Crossocheilos siamensis which doesn't usually do that either. However
                                                                                                                                                > the Chinese Algae Eater is notorious for 2 things; not eating algae
                                                                                                                                                > and nibbling on other fish. There are also Flying Fox's and False
                                                                                                                                                > Algae Eaters which have variations of all those behaviours.
                                                                                                                                                > --
                                                                                                                                                > Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                > Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                > Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                > +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                > On 25/08/2004, at 11:19 AM, j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                                > Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                                > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >                Joe P
                                                                                                                                                > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                > Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do hope you can get
                                                                                                                                                > that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and could you test it at
                                                                                                                                                > a neighbors? If you can test at two places you might find that you
                                                                                                                                                > have something causing your own ph to be so high. 7.2-7.4 is norm for
                                                                                                                                                > municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Did say what other fish you have besides the white clouds (which
                                                                                                                                                > instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                > Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae Eaters" which isn't their
                                                                                                                                                > manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                > I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys, yea they are cute when
                                                                                                                                                > you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow into giants and
                                                                                                                                                > chase, harass and torture their tank mates and trying to rid them
                                                                                                                                                > usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore up. So word to the
                                                                                                                                                > wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                                > Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Well, I appear to have had a strange change in water parameters that
                                                                                                                                                > my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope with; both of the
                                                                                                                                                > gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round holes and what
                                                                                                                                                > appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and male has what
                                                                                                                                                > appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am treating with Melafix
                                                                                                                                                > for a week now without much change.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change Saturday, because the
                                                                                                                                                > water parameters appeared to be great and I was concerned about the
                                                                                                                                                > tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the gravel washer. My CO2
                                                                                                                                                > generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the pH was creeping up
                                                                                                                                                > again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always,
                                                                                                                                                > and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                                > ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                                > water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2 litre washed soda
                                                                                                                                                > bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into the tank).
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > This evening I found my last of the three female gouramis, Millie,
                                                                                                                                                > propped up on top of some plants, and when I netted her out, I found
                                                                                                                                                > that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It broke my heart, but
                                                                                                                                                > I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a baggie in my
                                                                                                                                                > freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer, barely breathing. I
                                                                                                                                                > treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat, after netting Millie
                                                                                                                                                > out.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > I tested my water parameters again and found my pH had dropped
                                                                                                                                                > drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both tested 0, GH 150, KH
                                                                                                                                                > 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden acidifying of my tank
                                                                                                                                                > since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this? From my tap it is
                                                                                                                                                > 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                > tank was too small for those I found available at the time, and I
                                                                                                                                                > really thought I had better get experience with easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                                > which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would be), and the
                                                                                                                                                > combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                > May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in July had brought
                                                                                                                                                > it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect the new mix for the
                                                                                                                                                > CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I scrubbed out my intake
                                                                                                                                                > tube and impeller, which helped the flow considerably. (The cartridge
                                                                                                                                                > had very little debris on it, I guess because of the limited flow.)
                                                                                                                                                > Everyone else in the tank is now very active, including the fry.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use some help here...
                                                                                                                                                > thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4529 From: Seti Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                In the last several days I noticed some strange worms in my tank. They're not Planaria - as
                                                                                                                                                far as I know, Planaria are white, and these are pinkish in color, threadlike things that
                                                                                                                                                appear to "grow" out of thye gravel. What are they?? I hope they're harmless. I can't seem
                                                                                                                                                to find any info online, does anyone have a clue?

                                                                                                                                                ~~Seti
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4530 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Pleco Info
                                                                                                                                                A favorite site for all sorts of catfish info: http://www.planetcatfish.com/core/index.htm Check out the 'Cat-eLog'.
                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                Just wanted to find out info on the following types of pleco's a Marble Pleco, Rhino Pleco, and a Blue Phantom pleco. Size, temperment, diet, etc.  

                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4531 From: Jason Date: 8/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Red Finned Cigar Sharks..
                                                                                                                                                Anyone have any of these, or know about them? I have two in my
                                                                                                                                                community tank. The guy at the LFS said they were 'Golden Sharks'
                                                                                                                                                and peaceful fish. I have since learned these SOB's grow to over a
                                                                                                                                                foot long! Much too big for my 40 Gallon community tank. I was
                                                                                                                                                wondering, if they won't grow very large if they are kept in a small
                                                                                                                                                tank? And also, will they eat all of my community fish? I am
                                                                                                                                                seriously thinking about trading them in for store credit. Maybe I
                                                                                                                                                can get decent value if I trade them in to someone who knows what
                                                                                                                                                they're talking about instead of PetDumb. They are active, decent
                                                                                                                                                looking fish and I don't mind them but I don't want to lose any of
                                                                                                                                                my babies (community fish- Swords, Guppies, Danios, Etc..).

                                                                                                                                                Thanks for any advice.

                                                                                                                                                Jason.
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4532 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                hmm in my opinion they might be planaria. This is
                                                                                                                                                cause mainly due to poor water conditions and over
                                                                                                                                                feeding. So how often do you change the water and how
                                                                                                                                                much do u feed.

                                                                                                                                                Its healthy and advisable not to feed the fishes once
                                                                                                                                                in a week and a healthy diet would be to feed them
                                                                                                                                                only so much which they can consume within 3 - 5
                                                                                                                                                minutes maximum.

                                                                                                                                                So if u are not sure a good water change of 50% would
                                                                                                                                                be helpful.

                                                                                                                                                hope this helps....SuNnY !
                                                                                                                                                --- Seti <Seti1st@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                > In the last several days I noticed some strange
                                                                                                                                                > worms in my tank. They're not Planaria - as
                                                                                                                                                > far as I know, Planaria are white, and these are
                                                                                                                                                > pinkish in color, threadlike things that
                                                                                                                                                > appear to "grow" out of thye gravel. What are they??
                                                                                                                                                > I hope they're harmless. I can't seem
                                                                                                                                                > to find any info online, does anyone have a clue?
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > ~~Seti
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                =====




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                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4533 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                i would like to second Tim's opinion.

                                                                                                                                                I have had SAE and chinese algae eaters. With SAE i
                                                                                                                                                didnt have any problem they were busy with their work
                                                                                                                                                of cleaning the tank.

                                                                                                                                                But chinese algae eaters quit it after they grew big.
                                                                                                                                                No dobut when they were young they just ate ate and
                                                                                                                                                ate and until everything was sparkling clean.

                                                                                                                                                But once they quit cleaning they looked ugly and also
                                                                                                                                                i had cought them tryin to hangon with the Angels, but
                                                                                                                                                i came to know this only after i becaame more familiar
                                                                                                                                                with their tendency to feed on the slime coat of other
                                                                                                                                                fishes.

                                                                                                                                                .....hope this helps.........SuNnY !
                                                                                                                                                --- Tim Walker <twalker@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                > I'll put up a positive vote for the Siamese Algae
                                                                                                                                                > Eater - SAE -
                                                                                                                                                > Crossocheilos siamensis which doesn't usually do
                                                                                                                                                > that either. However
                                                                                                                                                > the Chinese Algae Eater is notorious for 2 things;
                                                                                                                                                > not eating algae and
                                                                                                                                                > nibbling on other fish. There are also Flying Fox's
                                                                                                                                                > and False Algae
                                                                                                                                                > Eaters which have variations of all those
                                                                                                                                                > behaviours.
                                                                                                                                                > --
                                                                                                                                                > Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                > Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                > Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                > +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                > On 25/08/2004, at 11:19 AM, j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                                > territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                                > > Otto's� were docile,�unconcerned �when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                > the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                                > > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > �������������� Joe P
                                                                                                                                                > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                > > Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do
                                                                                                                                                > hope you can get
                                                                                                                                                > > that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and
                                                                                                                                                > could you test it at
                                                                                                                                                > > a neighbors? If you can test at two places you
                                                                                                                                                > might find that you
                                                                                                                                                > > have something causing your own ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                                > 7.2-7.4 is norm for
                                                                                                                                                > > municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > Did say what other fish you have besides the white
                                                                                                                                                > clouds (which
                                                                                                                                                > > instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                > > Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                                > Eaters" which isn't their
                                                                                                                                                > > manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                > > I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                                > yea they are cute when
                                                                                                                                                > > you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow
                                                                                                                                                > into giants and
                                                                                                                                                > > chase, harass and torture their tank mates and
                                                                                                                                                > trying to rid them
                                                                                                                                                > > usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore
                                                                                                                                                > up. So word to the
                                                                                                                                                > > wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                                > > Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > Well, I appear to have had a strange change in
                                                                                                                                                > water parameters that
                                                                                                                                                > > my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope
                                                                                                                                                > with; both of the
                                                                                                                                                > > gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round
                                                                                                                                                > holes and what
                                                                                                                                                > > appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and
                                                                                                                                                > male has what
                                                                                                                                                > > appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am
                                                                                                                                                > treating with Melafix
                                                                                                                                                > > for a week now without much change.
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change
                                                                                                                                                > Saturday, because the
                                                                                                                                                > > water parameters appeared to be great and I was
                                                                                                                                                > concerned about the
                                                                                                                                                > > tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the
                                                                                                                                                > gravel washer. My CO2
                                                                                                                                                > > generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the
                                                                                                                                                > pH was creeping up
                                                                                                                                                > > again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites
                                                                                                                                                > were 0 as always,
                                                                                                                                                > > and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of
                                                                                                                                                > plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                                > > ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1
                                                                                                                                                > tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                                > > water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2
                                                                                                                                                > litre washed soda
                                                                                                                                                > > bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it
                                                                                                                                                > into the tank).
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > This evening I found my last of the three female
                                                                                                                                                > gouramis, Millie,
                                                                                                                                                > > propped up on top of some plants, and when I
                                                                                                                                                > netted her out, I found
                                                                                                                                                > > that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It
                                                                                                                                                > broke my heart, but
                                                                                                                                                > > I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a
                                                                                                                                                > baggie in my
                                                                                                                                                > > freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer,
                                                                                                                                                > barely breathing. I
                                                                                                                                                > > treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat,
                                                                                                                                                > after netting Millie
                                                                                                                                                > > out.
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > I tested my water parameters again and found my pH
                                                                                                                                                > had dropped
                                                                                                                                                > > drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both
                                                                                                                                                > tested 0, GH 150, KH
                                                                                                                                                > > 120) What on earth could have caused this sudden
                                                                                                                                                > acidifying of my tank
                                                                                                                                                > > since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this?
                                                                                                                                                > From my tap it is
                                                                                                                                                > > 8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid
                                                                                                                                                > tank, but my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                > > tank was too small for those I found available at
                                                                                                                                                > the time, and I
                                                                                                                                                > > really thought I had better get experience with
                                                                                                                                                > easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                                > > which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would
                                                                                                                                                > be), and the
                                                                                                                                                > > combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a
                                                                                                                                                > piece of driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                > > May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants
                                                                                                                                                > in July had brought
                                                                                                                                                > > it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect
                                                                                                                                                > the new mix for the
                                                                                                                                                > > CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I
                                                                                                                                                > scrubbed out my intake
                                                                                                                                                > > tube and impeller, which helped the flow
                                                                                                                                                > considerably. (The cartridge
                                                                                                                                                > > had very little debris on it, I guess because of
                                                                                                                                                > the limited flow.)
                                                                                                                                                > > Everyone else in the tank is now very active,
                                                                                                                                                > including the fry.
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use
                                                                                                                                                > some help here...
                                                                                                                                                > > thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > ��������
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                > > �
                                                                                                                                                > > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                                                                                                                                > to:
                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4534 From: daniel_roachus Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                > eventually you will begin to lose color and have some
                                                                                                                                                > deformity, probably 5 generations down or so.
                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                Ok, but what will happen to the fish??? ;-)
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4535 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                Good Morning All,
                                                                                                                                                OK,,,, I found my folly.
                                                                                                                                                                 What I said were "algae eaters" was a generic term or common name that could cover about 5 fish. So for clarity I grabbed the books and have the prey I was referring to.

                                                                                                                                                Gyrinocheilus aymonieri
                                                                                                                                                (Tirant) CAE

                                                                                                                                                This is the bugger, yes it does eat algae, sort of,   when young. But once big enough they do commit torturous attacks upon just about anything but the meanest of the mean, Texas Cichlid.

                                                                                                                                                I used to have a 12 inch Texas Cichlid one named Hannibal Lector, had jagged teeth that stuck out in every direction, I couldn't clean the tank since just putting your arm in the tank resulted in a rather nasty wound. He ate anything, anything, liked beef heart, also goldfish, plecos, catfish (bullhead) , crayfish, any snail, cockroaches, crickets, dang, I can't think of anything it wouldn't eat.

                                                                                                                                                OK , where was I , oh,  don't trust the CAE.. and thanks for the help guys/gals.

                                                                                                                                                Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                sunil kamath wrote:
                                                                                                                                                i would like to second Tim's opinion.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                I have had SAE and chinese algae eaters. With SAE i
                                                                                                                                                didnt have any problem they were busy with their work
                                                                                                                                                of cleaning the tank. 
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                But chinese algae eaters quit it after they grew big.
                                                                                                                                                No dobut when they were young they just ate ate and
                                                                                                                                                ate and until everything was sparkling clean.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                But once they quit cleaning they looked ugly and also
                                                                                                                                                i had cought them tryin to hangon with the Angels, but
                                                                                                                                                i came to know this only after i becaame more familiar
                                                                                                                                                with their tendency to feed on the slime coat of other
                                                                                                                                                fishes.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                .....hope this helps.........SuNnY !
                                                                                                                                                --- Tim Walker <twalker@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                I'll put up a positive vote for the Siamese Algae
                                                                                                                                                Eater - SAE - 
                                                                                                                                                Crossocheilos siamensis which doesn't usually do
                                                                                                                                                that either. However 
                                                                                                                                                the Chinese Algae Eater is notorious for 2 things;
                                                                                                                                                not eating algae and 
                                                                                                                                                nibbling on other fish. There are also Flying Fox's
                                                                                                                                                and False Algae 
                                                                                                                                                Eaters which have variations of all those
                                                                                                                                                behaviours.
                                                                                                                                                --
                                                                                                                                                Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                On 25/08/2004, at 11:19 AM, j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                wrote:
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                territorialists. My 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                the tank and would'nt 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                               Joe P
                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I do
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                hope you can get 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                could you test it at 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                a neighbors? If you can test at two places you
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                might find that you 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                have something causing your own ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                7.2-7.4 is norm for 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                Did say what other fish you have besides the white
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                clouds (which 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                Eaters" which isn't their 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                manner, the only thing they don't eat is ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                 I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                yea they are cute when 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                into giants and 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                chase, harass and torture their tank mates and
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                trying to rid them 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                up. So word to the 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                                 Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                Well, I appear to have had a strange change in
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                water parameters that 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                with; both of the 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                holes and what 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins, and
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                male has what 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                treating with Melafix 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                for a week now without much change.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water change
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                Saturday, because the 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                water parameters appeared to be great and I was
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                concerned about the 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                tiny White Cloud (?)fry getting sucked up in the
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                gravel washer. My CO2 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                generator had stopped giving off bubbles and the
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                pH was creeping up 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                again, back up to 7.6, but my ammonia and nitrites
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                were 0 as always, 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                and nitrates (thanks to an overabundance of
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                plants) were less than 20 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                ppm. So I made a fresh CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                tsp baking soda, 4 c 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                water, and 1 pkg dry yeast floated on top in a 2
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                litre washed soda 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                bottle, with an airhose and airstone to diffuse it
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                into the tank).
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                This evening I found my last of the three female
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                gouramis, Millie, 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                propped up on top of some plants, and when I
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                netted her out, I found 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                that she was bleeding from just below one gill. It
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                broke my heart, but 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                I felt it best to euthanize her in some water in a
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                baggie in my 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                freezer, rather than see her continue to suffer,
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                barely breathing. I 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                treated the tank with Melafix and Stress Coat,
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                after netting Millie 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                out.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                I tested my water parameters again and found my pH
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                had dropped 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates both
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                tested 0, GH 150, KH 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                120) What on earth could have caused this sudden
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                acidifying of my tank 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                since Saturday? Could the Melafix have done this?
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                From my tap it is 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                8.0 (which is why I wanted an African cichlid
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                tank, but my 10 gallon 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                tank was too small for those I found available at
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                the time, and I 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                really thought I had better get experience with
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                easier fish first... 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                which I thought Anabantids and White Clouds would
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                be), and the 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                combination of the bacterial cycle in April, a
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                piece of driftwood in 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                May, and the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                in July had brought 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                the new mix for the 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                 I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                scrubbed out my intake 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                tube and impeller, which helped the flow
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                considerably. (The cartridge 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                had very little debris on it, I guess because of
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                the limited flow.) 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                Everyone else in the tank is now very active,
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                including the fry.
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure use
                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                some help here... 
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                
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                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4536 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                Go online and check out Nematodes, if you have those, man you better clean that tank pronto. they will get inside the fish and by the time you see them hanging out of the fish's vent (anus) it's far, far too late, oh and wear gloves that cover your hands and arms, and don't put your hands to your mouth .

                                                                                                                                                Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                I know these could be simple white  worms but if they are what I think they are you better be safe than sorry
                                                                                                                                                Seti wrote:
                                                                                                                                                In the last several days I noticed some strange worms in my tank. They're not Planaria - as
                                                                                                                                                far as I know, Planaria are white, and these are pinkish in color, threadlike things that
                                                                                                                                                appear to "grow" out of thye gravel. What are they?? I hope they're harmless. I can't seem
                                                                                                                                                to find any info online, does anyone have a clue?

                                                                                                                                                ~~Seti



                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4537 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                Mark, Have you seen any Dragonflies flying around your pond lately. From you brief description, it sounds like you might have dragon fly larvae in your pond. These are real nasty looking fry eaters and can get quite big with wicked looking jaws. Ray
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4538 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                Well, lets hope they're not nematodes (as well they could be). If they were Planaria, they would be crawling on the glass and not just be in the gravel. Have you been feeding any Tubifex worms lately? Uneatened live Tubifex will start colonizing your gravel and can appear as you describe. Ray
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4539 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                Well, I can't say for sure what caused the wounds on your Gourami's, especially the bleeding. Ordinarily, Melafix would be a good medication to use for wounds, though. I extremely doubt that the Melafix caused your drop in pH. Most likely, your CO2 generator caused this condition. Disolved in water, CO2 naturally forms Carbonic Acid in its reaction to H2O, forming H2CO3. Even though this is an unstable compound, the continous addition of CO2 will eventually overwhelm whatever buffering capacity your water has and will drop your pH like a rock, without frequent water changes (to add buffering capacity). As you have not made a water change recently, this is the obvious answer as to what happened to your pH. With fry in the tank, one of the safest ways to change water is to use a syphon hose and first drain your "to be" waste water into a 5 gallon bucket where you should be able to see (and pick out) any fry that might have been inadvertantly drawn into the draining hose before discarding the water. Ray
                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4540 From: Patrick Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                  > eventually you will begin to lose color and have some
                                                                                                                                                  > deformity, probably 5 generations down or so.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  Ok, but what will happen to the fish???   ;-)
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  Have you ever heard that a pet looks like its keeper?  I think that is what will happen to the fish. :)

                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4541 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Red Finned Cigar Sharks..
                                                                                                                                                  Red-Finned Cigar Sharks get to about 19". They are peaceful, but need a large tank. They are also a schooling fish and do best in a group of 5 or 6. They may not grow to quite full size in your 40 gallon tank, but they'll surely get over 1 foot. There is also a Golden version of the Bala (Tri-Color) Shark -- man-made by "painting" the fish. Bala Sharks are also peaceful, and only get to about 14" or 15"! While peaceful, its best not to trust any smaller fish with a fish with a large enough mouth that will fit the smaller fish. Ray
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4542 From: Seti Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                  I haven't fed live tubiflex worms, only freeze-dried. It says about
                                                                                                                                                  planaria and nematodes that they're white, and don't exceed 5 mm in
                                                                                                                                                  length; the ones I have I quite long (over an inch). I didn't think I
                                                                                                                                                  was overfeeding (I feed one or twice a day), and the water conditions
                                                                                                                                                  have been stable. I change 20% of the water every two weeks. Well, I
                                                                                                                                                  was getting a new tank anyway, and I'm going to break this one down as
                                                                                                                                                  soon as the new tank cycles...Hopefully, it'll take care of the worms.

                                                                                                                                                  ~~Seti


                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                  sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > Well, lets hope they're not nematodes (as well they could be). If
                                                                                                                                                  they were
                                                                                                                                                  > Planaria, they would be crawling on the glass and not just be in the
                                                                                                                                                  gravel.
                                                                                                                                                  > Have you been feeding any Tubifex worms lately? Uneatened live
                                                                                                                                                  Tubifex will
                                                                                                                                                  > start colonizing your gravel and can appear as you describe. Ray
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4543 From: AZRA® Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                  Presently I have been keeping this little eater.it looks like a
                                                                                                                                                  stingray ( don't know it's name really). It has kept my tank algae
                                                                                                                                                  free. Have a peek at its picture in AZRA's photo album
                                                                                                                                                  labelled 'AQUARIUM_0103.jpg"

                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Gary
                                                                                                                                                  Calhoun" <calhoung@a...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > Greetings folks,
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > I see we are having a lively discussion about algae eaters. My
                                                                                                                                                  presonal preference has always been to have a pleco.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Currently, I am in the process of establishing to smaller
                                                                                                                                                  aquariums neither of which are large enough for a pleco (in my
                                                                                                                                                  opinion). The one is a 20 gallon high in which I intend to have
                                                                                                                                                  livebearers and tetras. The other little 5 gallon for the family
                                                                                                                                                  betta. I am looking for suggestions for a good algae eater candidate
                                                                                                                                                  to add to these tanks about 6 weeks or so from now.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Regards,
                                                                                                                                                  > Gary
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4544 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                  Azra,

                                                                                                                                                  That's a Hillstream loach. It is not an algae eater and is ideally a
                                                                                                                                                  coldwater fish. Preferably a carnivore but can accept prepared foods. I have
                                                                                                                                                  never seen mine eat any vegetable matter yet.

                                                                                                                                                  Maybe your tank is well balanced, hence you don't have any algae but this
                                                                                                                                                  fish defiantly does not help clear algae in any way IMO/E

                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                  >From: AZRAR [mailto:azra2001my@...]
                                                                                                                                                  >Sent: 25 August 2004 16:27
                                                                                                                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                  >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >Presently I have been keeping this little eater.it looks like a
                                                                                                                                                  >stingray ( don't know it's name really). It has kept my tank algae
                                                                                                                                                  >free. Have a peek at its picture in AZRA's photo album
                                                                                                                                                  >labelled 'AQUARIUM_0103.jpg"
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Gary
                                                                                                                                                  >Calhoun" <calhoung@a...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  >> Greetings folks,
                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                  >> I see we are having a lively discussion about algae eaters. My
                                                                                                                                                  >presonal preference has always been to have a pleco.
                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                  >> Currently, I am in the process of establishing to smaller
                                                                                                                                                  >aquariums neither of which are large enough for a pleco (in my
                                                                                                                                                  >opinion). The one is a 20 gallon high in which I intend to have
                                                                                                                                                  >livebearers and tetras. The other little 5 gallon for the family
                                                                                                                                                  >betta. I am looking for suggestions for a good algae eater candidate
                                                                                                                                                  >to add to these tanks about 6 weeks or so from now.
                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                  >> Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                  >> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                  >> Gary
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4545 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Gourami/White Cloud tank
                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the response everyone; well, since my Oto had died previously, it was not likely to have been the culprit who bit/suckered onto the Gouramis. Other tank occupants are only the tiny amber snails who now stay near the surface on floating plants, and the fry (which I am assuming are White Clouds but are too tiny to verify), and some water insect larva - I have netted out a few drowned Lace Wings. No other fish are in the tank. Could the two Gouramis have beat up on each other?
                                                                                                                                                  Regarding water conditions, as I said, my tap water is 8.0 pH, but I am on a well, not municipal water. I live in a town so small we don't get mail delivered to our homes. I used to add it to my tank untreated, but now add a few drops of pH down to bring it to the same level as the tank, when I change water... since finding out the water for changes is supposed to be the same as tank conditions. (But I did NOT do this yesterday, since the tank pH was much too low. And like I said, I hadn't done a water change Saturday.)
                                                                                                                                                  Thanks again! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4546 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Different fish died in the same way ?
                                                                                                                                                  Hi all, I recently set up a 10 gallon tank and I have it heated and
                                                                                                                                                  I have it filtered with a aqua clear 150 filter. I took the carbon
                                                                                                                                                  and sponge out of the aqua clear filter and replaced it with left
                                                                                                                                                  over filter media from when I built my pond filter, and then I
                                                                                                                                                  seeded the filter with gunk from an established filter. Anyway, on
                                                                                                                                                  my first batch of fish I bought a few glo light tetras a couple of
                                                                                                                                                  sunset platys. On the first night that my fish were in there I had
                                                                                                                                                  one of the sunset platys die on me, he just started losing his
                                                                                                                                                  balance and soon he was sinking towards the bottom but when he got
                                                                                                                                                  there he would build up strength and shoot off in a sparatic
                                                                                                                                                  direction. Within an hour he died, and the next morning I found that
                                                                                                                                                  one of my glo lights had jumped out of the tank and died (my fault
                                                                                                                                                  for forgetting to cover it). Everything was fine until yesterday
                                                                                                                                                  when I bought some neon tetras, when I went to feed them this
                                                                                                                                                  morning one of the tetras was dead, so I took him back to petco and
                                                                                                                                                  they replaced him, but as soon as I got home I noticed that one of
                                                                                                                                                  the neons from the previos day was hanging away from the other
                                                                                                                                                  tetras and within ten minutes he started spinning around and
                                                                                                                                                  swimming uncontrolably. Soon he sank to the bottom one last time and
                                                                                                                                                  it was over. He's in a bag right now waiting to go back to petco.

                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I am used to petco fish dieing, I just found it to be odd
                                                                                                                                                  that to fish died in the same way. It just concerned me that there
                                                                                                                                                  might be something wrong. I have done water tests and I found that
                                                                                                                                                  my ph is low (around 6.8, I didn't raise it because tetras like the
                                                                                                                                                  soft acidic water, but I dont know what platys like, so...) I had
                                                                                                                                                  zero nitrites and nitrates, and faint ammonia levels.

                                                                                                                                                  So, if any of you know what might have caused these deaths please
                                                                                                                                                  let me know.

                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                  Jay
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4547 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                  Well I didn't fall in, actually watched the special on Steven Hawkins, fascinating gentlemen.
                                                                                                                                                  I didn't find what the heck that little creep in the pond is. Larval stage of some flying insect (6 legs) compound eyes, opposing mandibles that close in a vertical slicing action, sort of bee like in structure. Mean looking. Not damsel fly, dragon fly , no protrudence from the end of the abdomen, sort fuzzy all over to that detritus clings to it for camouflage. It's intelligent (when given a choice of water that is close by but not open water and a further distance to travel to be in open water it will choose the second option, also reacts to painful stimulus, moves in a thoughtful manner. So I have a group of no goods.
                                                                                                                                                  Well back to the books, still need to learn how to milk that male Leeri,
                                                                                                                                                  Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                  Patrick wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      My ottos are peaceful, but I still don't trust them.  It is the ones that seem peaceful that always seem to get you. :)  Good luck on your mission to rid your pond of those fry eaters.  But don't try to do it until morning or you could fall in with them.
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                  Aw I blew it , I had the species mixed up, I really blew it by not waiting until the morning since it's martini hour. So you got me there. Anyways, the ottos of which the gin has my arm to tired to reach for axelrods book to dig it up is the little guys that are peaceful, hardly ever seen and work away at algae right????
                                                                                                                                                  If yes then I did mix them up, again, I usually don't answer messages at martini hour and anytime there after. it's time to identify a new creature found in the outdoor pond, a real nasty thing that resembles my X-wife, I could only imagine that by the shape of the jaws it's going to eat many fry, so I must find what it is , then spend tomorrow ridding the pond of them, and hopefully extract all the larger fry for the grow-out tanks. well cheers to all, have a drink and good night,

                                                                                                                                                  Mark J. Bethke, "Shaken not stired"





                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4548 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                  Thanks, yea I looked them up but no, they don't have the tails or tiny pins from the abdomen but that is pretty close, plus we never get dragonflies or damselflies here in the middle of the San Fernando Valley. We don't get much BUT we do get Midge fly, I hve an endless supply of live bloodworms , just a pain in the A- - to collect, so i sit there and pick them out, the fish love them , but they really like the mosquitoes better, I actually have that container drapped in cheese cloth so no adults escape. But when I dump in cleaned and fluched larva they (gouramis and paradise) go nuts, it's like gourami "CRACK" ... anyways, bac to the books, MJB

                                                                                                                                                  sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  Mark, Have you seen any Dragonflies flying around your pond lately. From you brief description, it sounds like you might have dragon fly larvae in your pond. These are real nasty looking fry eaters and can get quite big with wicked looking jaws. Ray

                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4549 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                  Oh you're right there Ray, boy I hope they are, it's good to have them in the gravel , them and the malasian snails are real good janitors.
                                                                                                                                                  I use blackworms in the clay/coral sand substrate of the pond to keep the bottom from settling tight and building up poisonous hydrates. Good Call there Ray, MJB

                                                                                                                                                  sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  Well, lets hope they're not nematodes (as well they could be). If they were Planaria, they would be crawling on the glass and not just be in the gravel. Have you been feeding any Tubifex worms lately? Uneatened live Tubifex will start colonizing your gravel and can appear as you describe. Ray

                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4550 From: Seti Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Worm question, please help!
                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the tip, I looked up tubifex, and they sure look like the
                                                                                                                                                  worms I've got! I wonder where they came from, maybe with the plants?
                                                                                                                                                  Aren't fish supposed to eat them? My fish doesn't seem to be interested.

                                                                                                                                                  ~~Seti


                                                                                                                                                  > sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  Have you been feeding any Tubifex worms lately? Uneatened
                                                                                                                                                  > > live Tubifex will start colonizing your gravel and can appear as you
                                                                                                                                                  > > describe. Ray
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4551 From: Kristen Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                  To all of you that took the time to respond. A few peas later and my
                                                                                                                                                  fishy is darn near as good as new! It seems to be doing the trick!
                                                                                                                                                  I feel soooo much better.

                                                                                                                                                  Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                  Kristen :)
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4552 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                  This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the best way to pack them for the trip?
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4553 From: Audrey Archer Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: poor dead Millie
                                                                                                                                                  >the CO2 generator for my tangle of
                                                                                                                                                  >plants in July had brought it to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't expect >the new mix for
                                                                                                                                                  >the CO2 generator to cause this much of a change.

                                                                                                                                                  Hi again... I entered the water parameters from yesterday into my Aquarix software, and it was easy to see why Millie was gasping for air on top of the plants; the calculated CO2 levels based on pH and KH were 120 ppm!!! I am surprised that the rest of the fish were okay. (Believe it or not, even the fry survived my blunder.) Everyone appears fine tonight. Obviously, I must have had too many CO2 bubbles going into the tank. The pH tonight was about 7.6 which is reasonable if it would stay stable, but quite a change from last night.(I am just guessing - no pads on the test strip between 7.2 and 7.8, which is pretty useless, isn't it? But the color appeared to be between those two colors.) I wouldn't have thought a 15% water change with my 8.0 pH well water would have brought it up that much... so weird... but I had also turned down the CO2, and also added an airstone of regular air, so I guess all my emergency measures worked together. Poor little fishies have gone through quite a bad ordeal the past few days. :-( It is easy to understand why the voices of experience on this site advise it is better to work with the pH you have rather than try to change it.

                                                                                                                                                  So I am researching now for my future 29 gallon tank; with a pH of 8.0 I am guessing that African Cichlids will be a good bet. Trying to decide on a good stock for a Tanganyikan community tank... but since a 29 gallon tank is still on the small side, I need dwarfs. What are your experiences with asking a LFS to order fish for you? Are we stuck with what they like to sell, or will most try to get specific fish that are requested? Audrey
                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4554 From: bryants4god Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                  I received some of those in the mail the other day.  They were just bagged in some water. Took 2 days to get here and every one was alive.
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                  From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                  To: aquaria-freshwater; FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] travelling with snails

                                                                                                                                                  This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the best way to pack them for the trip?


                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4555 From: Patrick Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Different fish died in the same way ?
                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                        At 6.8 you need to be adding salt and crushed coral and bottles of pH up... Just joking.  6.8, while a little lower than the water that platies might come from, is fine for them. 
                                                                                                                                                        I suspect the ammonia levels are building up a little from adding too many fish at once.  But I have no idea why it would make them spin to death.  Neons can die of Neon Tetra disease, and live bearers are weak sometimes due to internal parasites.  Add some ammonia and death can come, but it is hard for me to say exactly.
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, I am used to petco fish dieing,  I just found it to be odd
                                                                                                                                                    that to fish died in the same way. It just concerned me that there
                                                                                                                                                    might be something wrong. I have done water tests and I found that
                                                                                                                                                    my ph is low (around 6.8, I didn't raise it because tetras like the
                                                                                                                                                    soft acidic water, but I dont know what platys like, so...) I had
                                                                                                                                                    zero nitrites and nitrates, and faint ammonia levels.

                                                                                                                                                    So, if any of you know what might have caused these deaths please
                                                                                                                                                    let me know.

                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                    Jay
                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4556 From: Seti Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                    I would pack them in a tupperware container with water, perhaps with
                                                                                                                                                    some holes punched on the top for air (just be careful to not overturn
                                                                                                                                                    it), and put it in a cooler. If it's really hot you may consider
                                                                                                                                                    adding a small ice pack. I've shipped snails 2-day priority in
                                                                                                                                                    tupperware wrapped in wet paper towels, with insulation material
                                                                                                                                                    around, and they made it fine. So packing them in a cooler would work
                                                                                                                                                    well for a day trip.

                                                                                                                                                    ~~Seti


                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan & Theresa"
                                                                                                                                                    <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    > This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take
                                                                                                                                                    along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the
                                                                                                                                                    best way to pack them for the trip?
                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4557 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                    Oh I think you'll be good without the ice packs , they are malaysian, I've been their about 5 yrs back, I still feel the humidity and heat.
                                                                                                                                                    (JJ),  Sabah is beautiful. just keep them damp, they'll be alright, gastropods survive well out of water as long as they are damp . MJB

                                                                                                                                                    Seti wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    I would pack them in a tupperware container with water, perhaps with
                                                                                                                                                    some holes punched on the top for air (just be careful to not overturn
                                                                                                                                                    it), and put it in a cooler. If it's really hot you may consider
                                                                                                                                                    adding a small ice pack. I've shipped snails 2-day priority in
                                                                                                                                                    tupperware wrapped in wet paper towels, with insulation material
                                                                                                                                                    around, and they made it fine. So packing them in a cooler would work
                                                                                                                                                    well for a day trip.

                                                                                                                                                    ~~Seti


                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan & Theresa"
                                                                                                                                                    <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    > This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take
                                                                                                                                                    along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the
                                                                                                                                                    best way to pack them for the trip?



                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4558 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                    I'm happy the pea trick worked for you. Including regular vegetable
                                                                                                                                                    matter in your fishes diet is a good idea too. Place things in and
                                                                                                                                                    remove what left the next morning. I know of people that add blanched
                                                                                                                                                    letter and brocolli and zuccini or cucumber all the time to keep their
                                                                                                                                                    fish healthy.

                                                                                                                                                    Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                    Tim

                                                                                                                                                    --
                                                                                                                                                    Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                    Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                    Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                    +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                    On 26/08/2004, at 8:26 AM, Kristen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                    > To all of you that took the time to respond.  A few peas later and my
                                                                                                                                                    > fishy is darn near as good as new!  It seems to be doing the trick! 
                                                                                                                                                    > I feel soooo much better. 
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                    > Kristen :)
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >         
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                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4559 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                    And yes, even a blanched letter might be tough for the average fish,
                                                                                                                                                    although the snails might like it. I think lettuce would be more
                                                                                                                                                    appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                    --
                                                                                                                                                    Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                    Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                    Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                    +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                    On 26/08/2004, at 10:28 AM, Tim Walker wrote:

                                                                                                                                                    > I'm happy the pea trick worked for you. Including regular vegetable
                                                                                                                                                    > matter in your fishes diet is a good idea too. Place things in and
                                                                                                                                                    > remove what left the next morning. I know of people that add blanched
                                                                                                                                                    > letter and brocolli and zuccini or cucumber all the time to keep their
                                                                                                                                                    > fish healthy.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                    > Tim
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > --
                                                                                                                                                    > Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                    > Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                    > Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                    > +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                    > On 26/08/2004, at 8:26 AM, Kristen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >> To all of you that took the time to respond.  A few peas later and my
                                                                                                                                                    >> fishy is darn near as good as new!  It seems to be doing the trick! 
                                                                                                                                                    >> I feel soooo much better. 
                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                    >> Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                    >> Kristen :)
                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                    >>
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                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4560 From: Aranel Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                    Does this work for tropical fish like mollies as well? And are there any that cory cats would eat?

                                                                                                                                                    -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                    Tim Walker wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    I'm happy the pea trick worked for you. Including regular vegetable matter in your fishes diet is a good idea too. Place things in and remove what left the next morning. I know of people that add blanched letter and brocolli and zuccini or cucumber all the time to keep their fish healthy.

                                                                                                                                                    Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                    Tim

                                                                                                                                                    --
                                                                                                                                                    Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                    Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                    Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                    +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                    On 26/08/2004, at 8:26 AM, Kristen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                    To all of you that took the time to respond.  A few peas later and my
                                                                                                                                                    fishy is darn near as good as new!  It seems to be doing the trick! 
                                                                                                                                                    I feel soooo much better. 

                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                    Kristen :)





                                                                                                                                                            







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                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4561 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Digest Number 364
                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 8/25/04 9:04:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                    From: "Dan & Theresa" <dtmergl@...>
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: travelling with snails

                                                                                                                                                    This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the best way to pack them for the trip?


                                                                                                                                                    A few months ago, I got some Apple Snails in the mail.  They were packed in damp spanish moss, wrapped in newspaper, and in a plastic bag.  Took over two days to get them, and they were OK.
                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4562 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Swim Bladder Disease - THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                    Yep, Cories and plec's especially enjoy a present left on the bottom of
                                                                                                                                                    the tank.

                                                                                                                                                    --
                                                                                                                                                    Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                    Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                    Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                    +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                    On 26/08/2004, at 12:02 PM, Aranel wrote:

                                                                                                                                                    > Does this work for tropical fish like mollies as well? And are there
                                                                                                                                                    > any that cory cats would eat?
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Tim Walker wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    > I'm happy the pea trick worked for you. Including regular vegetable
                                                                                                                                                    > matter in your fishes diet is a good idea too. Place things in and
                                                                                                                                                    > remove what left the next morning. I know of people that add blanched
                                                                                                                                                    > letter and brocolli and zuccini or cucumber all the time to keep their
                                                                                                                                                    > fish healthy.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                    > Tim
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > --
                                                                                                                                                    > Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                    > Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                    > Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                    > +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                    > On 26/08/2004, at 8:26 AM, Kristen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > To all of you that took the time to respond.  A few peas later and my
                                                                                                                                                    > fishy is darn near as good as new!  It seems to be doing the trick! 
                                                                                                                                                    > I feel soooo much better. 
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                    > Kristen :)
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4563 From: Patrick Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                          My snail lives in a 1 pint bowl that my betta came in.  It came with the hole in it.  Can't keep it in any of my planted tanks.  My point, in case you were wondering what it is, is that I think any container of water would work, even a cup.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                      This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the best way to pack them for the trip?
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4564 From: Ed Feher Date: 8/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                      I think they are called Chinese Butterfly Suckers - they make great algae
                                                                                                                                                      eaters.

                                                                                                                                                      NC Ed


                                                                                                                                                      >From: AZRA� <azra2001my@...>
                                                                                                                                                      >Reply-To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                      >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:27:10 -0000
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >Presently I have been keeping this little eater.it looks like a
                                                                                                                                                      >stingray ( don't know it's name really). It has kept my tank algae
                                                                                                                                                      >free. Have a peek at its picture in AZRA's photo album
                                                                                                                                                      >labelled 'AQUARIUM_0103.jpg"
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Gary
                                                                                                                                                      >Calhoun" <calhoung@a...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > > Greetings folks,
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > I see we are having a lively discussion about algae eaters. My
                                                                                                                                                      >presonal preference has always been to have a pleco.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > Currently, I am in the process of establishing to smaller
                                                                                                                                                      >aquariums neither of which are large enough for a pleco (in my
                                                                                                                                                      >opinion). The one is a 20 gallon high in which I intend to have
                                                                                                                                                      >livebearers and tetras. The other little 5 gallon for the family
                                                                                                                                                      >betta. I am looking for suggestions for a good algae eater candidate
                                                                                                                                                      >to add to these tanks about 6 weeks or so from now.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > Regards,
                                                                                                                                                      > > Gary
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                      _________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4565 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Convict Breeding
                                                                                                                                                      they will be deformed! crooked backs, bent tails, no
                                                                                                                                                      coloration, and short life spans


                                                                                                                                                      --- daniel_roachus <daniel_roach@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                      > helms
                                                                                                                                                      > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > > eventually you will begin to lose color and have
                                                                                                                                                      > some
                                                                                                                                                      > > deformity, probably 5 generations down or so.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Ok, but what will happen to the fish??? ;-)
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4566 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: last Dwarf Gourami female died
                                                                                                                                                      i have found that they are ok until they hit 3-4
                                                                                                                                                      inches, then they get mean, as in territorial


                                                                                                                                                      --- "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > Good Morning All,
                                                                                                                                                      > OK,,,, I found my folly.
                                                                                                                                                      > What I said were "algae eaters" was
                                                                                                                                                      > a generic term or
                                                                                                                                                      > common name that could cover about 5 fish. So for
                                                                                                                                                      > clarity I grabbed the
                                                                                                                                                      > books and have the prey I was referring to.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Gyrinocheilus aymonieri (Tirant) CAE
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > This is the bugger, yes it does eat algae, sort of,
                                                                                                                                                      > when young. But
                                                                                                                                                      > once big enough they do commit torturous attacks
                                                                                                                                                      > upon just about
                                                                                                                                                      > anything but the meanest of the mean, Texas Cichlid.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > I used to have a 12 inch Texas Cichlid one named
                                                                                                                                                      > Hannibal Lector, had
                                                                                                                                                      > jagged teeth that stuck out in every direction, I
                                                                                                                                                      > couldn't clean the
                                                                                                                                                      > tank since just putting your arm in the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > resulted in a rather nasty
                                                                                                                                                      > wound. He ate anything, anything, liked beef heart,
                                                                                                                                                      > also goldfish,
                                                                                                                                                      > plecos, catfish (bullhead) , crayfish, any snail,
                                                                                                                                                      > cockroaches, crickets,
                                                                                                                                                      > dang, I can't think of anything it wouldn't eat.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > OK , where was I , oh, don't trust the CAE.. and
                                                                                                                                                      > thanks for the help
                                                                                                                                                      > guys/gals.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > sunil kamath wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > >i would like to second Tim's opinion.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >I have had SAE and chinese algae eaters. With SAE i
                                                                                                                                                      > >didnt have any problem they were busy with their
                                                                                                                                                      > work
                                                                                                                                                      > >of cleaning the tank.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >But chinese algae eaters quit it after they grew
                                                                                                                                                      > big.
                                                                                                                                                      > >No dobut when they were young they just ate ate and
                                                                                                                                                      > >ate and until everything was sparkling clean.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >But once they quit cleaning they looked ugly and
                                                                                                                                                      > also
                                                                                                                                                      > >i had cought them tryin to hangon with the Angels,
                                                                                                                                                      > but
                                                                                                                                                      > >i came to know this only after i becaame more
                                                                                                                                                      > familiar
                                                                                                                                                      > >with their tendency to feed on the slime coat of
                                                                                                                                                      > other
                                                                                                                                                      > >fishes.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >.....hope this helps.........SuNnY !
                                                                                                                                                      > >--- Tim Walker <twalker@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >>I'll put up a positive vote for the Siamese Algae
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Eater - SAE -
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Crossocheilos siamensis which doesn't usually do
                                                                                                                                                      > >>that either. However
                                                                                                                                                      > >>the Chinese Algae Eater is notorious for 2 things;
                                                                                                                                                      > >>not eating algae and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>nibbling on other fish. There are also Flying
                                                                                                                                                      > Fox's
                                                                                                                                                      > >>and False Algae
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Eaters which have variations of all those
                                                                                                                                                      > >>behaviours.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>--
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                      > >>+61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                      > >>On 25/08/2004, at 11:19 AM,
                                                                                                                                                      > j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                      > >>wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>Otto's were docile, unconcerned when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Joe P
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>-------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot, I
                                                                                                                                                      > do
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>hope you can get
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at tap? and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>could you test it at
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>a neighbors? If you can test at two places you
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>might find that you
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>have something causing your own ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>7.2-7.4 is norm for
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is alarmingly high.
                                                                                                                                                      > (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>Did say what other fish you have besides the
                                                                                                                                                      > white
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>clouds (which
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>Eaters" which isn't their
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>manner, the only thing they don't eat is
                                                                                                                                                      > ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>yea they are cute when
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>you get them as tiny guys but very soon they grow
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>into giants and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>chase, harass and torture their tank mates and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>trying to rid them
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>usually leaves you fustrated and your tank tore
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>up. So word to the
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>wise, don't trust them.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>Well, I appear to have had a strange change in
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>water parameters that
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>my weak female dwarf gourami just couldn't cope
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>with; both of the
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>gouramis had what appeared to be wounds - round
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>holes and what
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>appeared to be bites out of their dorsal fins,
                                                                                                                                                      > and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>male has what
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>appears to be small cuts on one side, which I am
                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4567 From: Ted Angelo Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: breeding size
                                                                                                                                                      i have 6 albino aeneus corydoras, how big will they be before they
                                                                                                                                                      start to spawn? thanks!
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4568 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                      There are dwarf plecos that you can put in a 20 gallon though I do not know what are their L numbers..I think the butterfly pleco only reaches up to 7" as compared to the ordinary pleco's 11". There are others like the peckoltia, ancistrus and hypancistrus that you can also keep in a 20 gal though they are pricey.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Rod


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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4569 From: la_rmarquezjr Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: hara hara catfish compatibility
                                                                                                                                                      Hello all!

                                                                                                                                                      I spotted some hara hara catfish in a local petshop but I'm having
                                                                                                                                                      second thoughts because they might turn on my present tank denizens
                                                                                                                                                      (dwarf pencilfishes, scarlet badis, panda corydoras and ghost
                                                                                                                                                      shrimp). The petshop owner says they have already been weaned on
                                                                                                                                                      pellets. Are they safe to put in a planted community tank?

                                                                                                                                                      Thanks in advance.

                                                                                                                                                      Rod
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4570 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: mark
                                                                                                                                                      Peace, guys!
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      I think someone has posted before that otocinclus have the potential to be parasitic and that certain conditions (a nutrient deficiency or developing a taste for body slime) can trigger that behavior. I have observed this behavior in 2-3 of my 16 otos so it's not an automatic change of behavior or else I would have ended up with a bleeding or dead discus. This usually happens during feeding time, too, when the discus harasses all the other fish to keep the sinking tablets to himself. Maybe it's an aggression behavior to drive away the discus (they don't do it to each other or the other small fishes) or maybe it's parasitism (but they don't do it all the time and only 2-3 do it among the group).
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      But I do know that Chinese/Siamese algae eaters do become aggressive with age. Yes, a few might turn out to be docile even when mature but that is not often the case. Unless you're keeping much larger fish than these guys, do not put them in with slower or long-finned fishes. And since they are omnivorous, they also might develop a taste for flesh quickly.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Rod
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      mark are you saying that ottos are aggressive, or that
                                                                                                                                                      chinese algae eaters are agressive, or that all algae
                                                                                                                                                      eaters are?

                                                                                                                                                      --- "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > You are unique then, you want me to round up about
                                                                                                                                                      > 100 other fishkeepers
                                                                                                                                                      > to inform the group want they are "Normally"
                                                                                                                                                      > like?????
                                                                                                                                                      > Even your docile obvious prozac subspecies is a a 1
                                                                                                                                                      > in a 1,000,000. so
                                                                                                                                                      > be happy FOR NOW, hope the3 fish stay nice. Mark
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                                      > territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                                      > > Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                      > the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                                      > > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >                Joe P
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >     -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot,
                                                                                                                                                      > I do hope you can
                                                                                                                                                      > >     get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at
                                                                                                                                                      > tap? and could you
                                                                                                                                                      > >     test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two
                                                                                                                                                      > places you might
                                                                                                                                                      > >     find that you have something causing your own
                                                                                                                                                      > ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                                      > >     7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is
                                                                                                                                                      > alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Did say what other fish you have besides the
                                                                                                                                                      > white clouds (which
                                                                                                                                                      > >     instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                                      > Eaters" which isn't
                                                                                                                                                      > >     their manner, the only thing they don't eat is
                                                                                                                                                      > ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                      > >     I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                                      > yea they are cute
                                                                                                                                                      > >     when you get them as tiny guys but very soon
                                                                                                                                                      > they grow into giants
                                                                                                                                                      > >     and chase, harass and torture their tank mates
                                                                                                                                                      > and trying to rid
                                                                                                                                                      > >     them usually leaves you fustrated and your
                                                                                                                                                      > tank tore up. So word
                                                                                                                                                      > >     to the wise, don't ! trust them.
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Well, I appear to have had a strange change
                                                                                                                                                      > in water parameters
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     that my weak female dwarf gourami just
                                                                                                                                                      > couldn't cope with; both
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     of the gouramis had what appeared to be
                                                                                                                                                      > wounds - round holes and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal
                                                                                                                                                      > fins, and male has
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     what appears to be small cuts on one side,
                                                                                                                                                      > which I am treating
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     with Melafix for a week now without much
                                                                                                                                                      > change.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water
                                                                                                                                                      > change Saturday,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     because the water parameters appeared to be
                                                                                                                                                      > great and I was
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry
                                                                                                                                                      > getting sucked up in
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had
                                                                                                                                                      > stopped giving off
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     bubbles and the pH was creeping up again,
                                                                                                                                                      > back up to 7.6, but my
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and
                                                                                                                                                      > nitrates (thanks to an
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     overabundance of plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                                      > ppm. So I made a fresh
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                                      > water, and 1 pkg
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     dr! y yeast floated on top in a 2 litre
                                                                                                                                                      > washed soda bottle, with
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into
                                                                                                                                                      > the tank).
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     This evening I found my last of the three
                                                                                                                                                      > female gouramis,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and
                                                                                                                                                      > when I netted her
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     out, I found that she was bleeding from just
                                                                                                                                                      > below one gill. It
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     broke my heart, but I felt it best to
                                                                                                                                                      > euthanize her in some water
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see
                                                                                                                                                      > her continue to
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > with Melafix and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     I tested my water parameters again and found
                                                                                                                                                      > my pH had dropped
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                      > both tested 0, GH
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused
                                                                                                                                                      > this sudden
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could
                                                                                                                                                      > the Melafix have done
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I
                                                                                                                                                      > wanted an African
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank was too
                                                                                                                                                      > small for those I
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     found available at the time, and I really
                                                                                                                                                      > thought I had better
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     get experie! nce with easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                                      > which I thought
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Anabantids and White Clo uds would be), and
                                                                                                                                                      > the combination of
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of
                                                                                                                                                      > driftwood in May, and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in
                                                                                                                                                      > July had brought it
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't
                                                                                                                                                      > expect the new mix for
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the CO2 generator to cause this much of a
                                                                                                                                                      > change.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I
                                                                                                                                                      > scrubbed out my
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     intake tube and impeller, which helped the
                                                                                                                                                      > flow considerably.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     (The cartridge had very little debris on it,
                                                                                                                                                      > I guess because of
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > is now very active,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     including the fry.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure
                                                                                                                                                      > use some help here...
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4571 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Apple Snails!
                                                                                                                                                      Hi All.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      We have some apple snails for sale is anyone is interested. Just send us an email.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4572 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Your Algae Eater Suggestions
                                                                                                                                                      I've got bristle nose cats/plecs in, (ancistrus sp.) They're usually
                                                                                                                                                      inexpensive (breed in captivity - usually without any owner control)
                                                                                                                                                      and grow to 6".

                                                                                                                                                      --
                                                                                                                                                      Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                      Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                      Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                      +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                      On 26/08/2004, at 8:14 PM, Rodrigo Jr. Marquez wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > There are dwarf plecos that you can put in a 20 gallon though I do not
                                                                                                                                                      > know what are their L numbers..I think the butterfly pleco only
                                                                                                                                                      > reaches up to 7" as compared to the ordinary pleco's 11". There are
                                                                                                                                                      > others like the peckoltia, ancistrus and hypancistrus that you can
                                                                                                                                                      > also keep in a 20 gal though they are pricey.
                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                      > Rod
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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4573 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      so what veggie would be good for tetras, catfish, gourami and botia.. anyone know..i have heard zuchinni.. but i only have that seasonally and havent tried it yet... would the peas work... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4574 From: Aaron Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      Hi Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                      here are some that I've tried

                                                                                                                                                      fruits & veggies:
                                                                                                                                                      Tomatoes
                                                                                                                                                      Zucchini
                                                                                                                                                      Broccoli
                                                                                                                                                      Kale
                                                                                                                                                      Spinach
                                                                                                                                                      Lettuce
                                                                                                                                                      Potatoe
                                                                                                                                                      Peas
                                                                                                                                                      Cucumber

                                                                                                                                                      other foods:
                                                                                                                                                      Cooked Rice
                                                                                                                                                      Boiled Egg Yolk

                                                                                                                                                      edible live plants:
                                                                                                                                                      echinodorus rose
                                                                                                                                                      anubias nana
                                                                                                                                                      Riccia
                                                                                                                                                      Hornwort
                                                                                                                                                      duckweed
                                                                                                                                                      cabomba
                                                                                                                                                      Limnophylla

                                                                                                                                                      hope that helps,
                                                                                                                                                      Aaron

                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                      agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > so what veggie would be good for tetras, catfish, gourami and
                                                                                                                                                      botia.. anyone know..i have heard zuchinni.. but i only have that
                                                                                                                                                      seasonally and havent tried it yet... would the peas work... thanks
                                                                                                                                                      shannon
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4575 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      You'll have to experiment, just make sure it's not so tough that the
                                                                                                                                                      fishes can't really get at it. It's useful to boil tougher vegies (even
                                                                                                                                                      the zuccini) first otherwise the fish may not show much interest. They
                                                                                                                                                      wont eat anything they don't like so experiment in moderation and
                                                                                                                                                      remember to pull it out the next morning so that it doesn't pollute the
                                                                                                                                                      water.

                                                                                                                                                      (think carrots or broccoli or whatever, I've even heard of some people
                                                                                                                                                      using blanched cabbage).

                                                                                                                                                      Tim



                                                                                                                                                      --
                                                                                                                                                      Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                      Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                      Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                      +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                      On 26/08/2004, at 10:33 PM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > so what veggie would be good for tetras, catfish, gourami and botia..
                                                                                                                                                      > anyone know..i have heard zuchinni.. but i only have that seasonally
                                                                                                                                                      > and havent tried it yet... would the peas work... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4576 From: devileye72 Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      I've seen many people use cucumber, but I've never done it myself.
                                                                                                                                                      I've also heard that frozen peas are really good. Again, I haven't
                                                                                                                                                      tried. I'm not sure botia will eat veggies. Mine always go for the
                                                                                                                                                      meaty stuff.

                                                                                                                                                      -Sam

                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                      agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > so what veggie would be good for tetras, catfish, gourami and
                                                                                                                                                      botia.. anyone know..i have heard zuchinni.. but i only have that
                                                                                                                                                      seasonally and havent tried it yet... would the peas work... thanks
                                                                                                                                                      shannon
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4577 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      thanks both time and aaron.. i would think tomatos would hurt the water with the acidicness of them... but i bet your fish are very happy with your varriation.. i think i need to start doing this..shanon
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4578 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      I have queen and dwarf loaches, they'll eat anything in the tank including
                                                                                                                                                      veggies.


                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                      From: "devileye72" <sfreeman72@...>



                                                                                                                                                      > I've seen many people use cucumber, but I've never done it myself.
                                                                                                                                                      > I've also heard that frozen peas are really good. Again, I haven't
                                                                                                                                                      > tried. I'm not sure botia will eat veggies. Mine always go for the
                                                                                                                                                      > meaty stuff.
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4579 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: feeding vegetables
                                                                                                                                                      I feed my fish lettuce, spinach, peas, tomato, and broccoli. I don't cook or
                                                                                                                                                      boil any of the veggies.


                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                      From: <agentscullyeyore@...>


                                                                                                                                                      > so what veggie would be good for tetras, catfish, gourami and botia..
                                                                                                                                                      anyone know..i have heard zuchinni.. but i only have that seasonally and
                                                                                                                                                      havent tried it yet... would the peas work... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4580 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: mark
                                                                                                                                                      Thank you Rod for the Explanation,
                                                                                                                                                      I believe the mistake was in my use of a common name to describe a species when I should have used the latin name to be specific and remove all doubt as to what dang critter I was referring to.
                                                                                                                                                      This being said (for possibly the second time but I don't keep records) Joe and I did figure it all out, no fire of wars came to be.
                                                                                                                                                      Now that we have the niceties out of the way and can move on to responsive communication concerning the subject cast into the discussion group .
                                                                                                                                                      A fascination research paper is to be had here : "Contributing factors in the "Root Cause" for CAE/SAE alteration from normally passive behavior of an herbivore to an aggressive harassing and destructive omnivore."

                                                                                                                                                      The slime coat harvesting is a good point to look at, have also observed repeated attacks on one place of a particular fish resulting in a ever deepening hole or wound which was finally attended to with triple antibiotic ointment (TAO) , this is a last ditch effort as such a deep wound will not heal on it's own under normal circumstances.

                                                                                                                                                      NOTES on TAO USE:You must first dry the wound but not the area outside the wound, then apply the ointment with a sterile cotton swab, try to cover the entire wound thus creating a boundary so the flesh can heal properly.
                                                                                                                                                      Well here's to figuring these little devils out , or angels whatever way you look at them. MJB

                                                                                                                                                      Rodrigo Jr. Marquez wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      Peace, guys!
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      I think someone has posted before that otocinclus have the potential to be parasitic and that certain conditions (a nutrient deficiency or developing a taste for body slime) can trigger that behavior. I have observed this behavior in 2-3 of my 16 otos so it's not an automatic change of behavior or else I would have ended up with a bleeding or dead discus. This usually happens during feeding time, too, when the discus harasses all the other fish to keep the sinking tablets to himself. Maybe it's an aggression behavior to drive away the discus (they don't do it to each other or the other small fishes) or maybe it's parasitism (but they don't do it all the time and only 2-3 do it among the group).
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      But I do know that Chinese/Siamese algae eaters do become aggressive with age. Yes, a few might turn out to be docile even when mature but that is not often the case. Unless you're keeping much larger fish than these guys, do not put them in with slower or long-finned fishes. And since they are omnivorous, they also might develop a taste for flesh quickly.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Rod
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      mark are you saying that ottos are aggressive, or that
                                                                                                                                                      chinese algae eaters are agressive, or that all algae
                                                                                                                                                      eaters are?

                                                                                                                                                      --- "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > You are unique then, you want me to round up about
                                                                                                                                                      > 100 other fishkeepers
                                                                                                                                                      > to inform the group want they are "Normally"
                                                                                                                                                      > like?????
                                                                                                                                                      > Even your docile obvious prozac subspecies is a a 1
                                                                                                                                                      > in a 1,000,000. so
                                                                                                                                                      > be happy FOR NOW, hope the3 fish stay nice. Mark
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                                      > territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                                      > > Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                      > the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                                      > > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >              ! ;  Joe P
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >     -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot,
                                                                                                                                                      > I do hope you can
                                                                                                                                                      > >     get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at
                                                                                                                                                      > tap? and could you
                                                                                                                                                      > >     test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two
                                                                                                                                                      > places you might
                                                                                                                                                      > >     find that you have something causing your own
                                                                                                                                                      > ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                                      > >     7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is
                                                                                                                                                      > alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Did say what other fish you have besides the
                                                                                                                                                      > white clouds (which
                                                                                                                                                      > >     instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                                      > Eaters" which isn't
                                                                                                                                                      > >     their manner, the only thing they don't eat is
                                                                                                                                                      > ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                      > >     I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                                      > yea they are cute
                                                                                                                                                      > >     when you get them as tiny guys but very soon
                                                                                                                                                      > they grow into giants
                                                                                                                                                      > >     and chase, harass and torture their tank mates
                                                                                                                                                      > and trying to rid
                                                                                                                                                      > >     them usually leaves you fustrated and your
                                                                                                                                                      > tank tore up. So word
                                                                                                                                                      > >     to the wise, don't ! trust them.
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >     Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Well, I appear to have had a strange change
                                                                                                                                                      > in water parameters
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     that my weak female dwarf gourami just
                                                                                                                                                      > couldn't cope with; both> >>     of the gouramis had what appeared to be
                                                                                                                                                      > wounds - round holes and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal
                                                                                                                                                      > fins, and male has
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     what appears to be small cuts on one side,
                                                                                                                                                      > which I am treating
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     with Melafix for a week now without much
                                                                                                                                                      > change.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water
                                                                                                                                                      > change Saturday,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     because the water parameters appeared to be
                                                                                                                                                      > great and I was
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry
                                                                                                                                                      > getting sucked up in
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had
                                                                                                                                                      > stopped giving off
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     bubbles and the pH was creeping up again,
                                                                                                                                                      > back up to ! 7.6, but my
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and
                                                                                                                                                      > nitrates (thanks to an
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     overabundance of plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                                      > ppm. So I made a fresh
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                                      > water, and 1 pkg
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     dr! y yeast floated on top in a 2 litre
                                                                                                                                                      > washed soda bottle, with
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into
                                                                                                                                                      > the tank).
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     This evening I found my last of the three
                                                                                                                                                      > female gouramis,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and
                                                                                                                                                      > when I netted her
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     out, I found that she was bleeding from just
                                                                                                                                                      > below one gill. It
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     broke my heart, but I felt it best to
                                                                                                                                                      > euthanize her in some water
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see
                                                                                                                                                      > her continue to
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > with Melafix and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     I tested my water parameters again and found
                                                                                                                                                      > my pH had dropped
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                      > both tested 0, GH
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused
                                                                                                                                                      > this sudden
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could
                                                                                                                                                      > the Melafix have done
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I
                                                                                                                                                      > wanted an African
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank w! as too
                                                                                                                                                      > small for those I
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     found available at the time, and I really
                                                                                                                                                      > thought I had better
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     get experie! nce with easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                                      > which I thought
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Anabantids and White Clo uds would be), and
                                                                                                                                                      > the combination of
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of
                                                                                                                                                      > driftwood in May, and
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in
                                                                                                                                                      > July had brought it
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't
                                                                                                                                                      > expect the new mix for
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the CO2 generator to cause this much of a
                                                                                                                                                      > change.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I
                                                                                                                                                      > scrubbed out my
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     intake tube and impe! ller, which helped the
                                                                                                                                                      > flow considerably.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     (The cartridge had very little debris on it,
                                                                                                                                                      > I guess because of
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > is now very active,
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     including the fry.
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure
                                                                                                                                                      > use some help here...
                                                                                                                                                      > >>     thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > >>
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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4581 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                      Aw, I missed something here Patrick, did the container have a hole or the snail? I ask as mollusc espescially gastropods is my specicalty (mostly marine but terristrial and amphibious also).
                                                                                                                                                      Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                      PS, OH, there is a fix for a hole in the snail shell

                                                                                                                                                      Patrick wrote:
                                                                                                                                                          My snail lives in a 1 pint bowl that my betta came in.  It came with the hole in it.  Can't keep it in any of my planted tanks.  My point, in case you were wondering what it is, is that I think any container of water would work, even a cup.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                      This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the best way to pack them for the trip?





                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4582 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
                                                                                                                                                      Hey, anyone know about dojo (weather) loaches? I read about them on
                                                                                                                                                      loaches.com...but I got one at Petco and put him in my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                      with was at about 75 degrees...the night got chilly on me and the
                                                                                                                                                      temp dropped to about 70 degrees and the loach died...I was
                                                                                                                                                      surprised because I read these loaches can survive cold temps, even
                                                                                                                                                      though it was an accident to let teh water get that cold..

                                                                                                                                                      My water tested fine (I also had Petco test for me)...so I got
                                                                                                                                                      another loach and added him to my 29 gallon that is a pretty stable
                                                                                                                                                      80 degrees..he went under some drift wood adn I haven't seen him for
                                                                                                                                                      days...think he is OK? The 29 gallon has a few angels, gouranis and
                                                                                                                                                      danios...and water tests fine...
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4583 From: shailendra Indulkar Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Oxygen level and fish varities
                                                                                                                                                      Hello,

                                                                                                                                                      Among fresh water (even marine water )fishes which one are most
                                                                                                                                                      sensitive to low dissolved oxygen?
                                                                                                                                                      when oxygen level goes down in tank which species will first show
                                                                                                                                                      change in behaviour ( swiming on the surface, etc).
                                                                                                                                                      Which other organism ,zooplanktons etc will show response to change
                                                                                                                                                      in oxygen level?

                                                                                                                                                      ManyThanks,
                                                                                                                                                      Indulkar Shailendra
                                                                                                                                                      India
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4584 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
                                                                                                                                                      Rob,

                                                                                                                                                      After the stress of transportation, a second stress of temperature
                                                                                                                                                      fluctuation (75-70 in a few hours) is not a good thing for any fish.

                                                                                                                                                      Coldwater fish are normally so called because they need more oxygen in the
                                                                                                                                                      water along with tolerance of lower temperatures. It does not mean that they
                                                                                                                                                      cannot be kept in tropical but any temperature higher then 75 for cold water
                                                                                                                                                      fish is not good in long term. This increases their metabolism depleting the
                                                                                                                                                      oxygen levels they need causing growth problems and severely shortening
                                                                                                                                                      their life. They can do fine in warm water for some periods but 80 I think
                                                                                                                                                      is a bit higher on their tolerance front. Never kept dojos so I may be
                                                                                                                                                      wrong.

                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                      >From: robdar4609 [mailto:robdar4609@...]
                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 26 August 2004 17:16
                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Dojo (Weather) Loaches
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >Hey, anyone know about dojo (weather) loaches? I read about them on
                                                                                                                                                      >loaches.com...but I got one at Petco and put him in my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                      >with was at about 75 degrees...the night got chilly on me and the
                                                                                                                                                      >temp dropped to about 70 degrees and the loach died...I was
                                                                                                                                                      >surprised because I read these loaches can survive cold temps, even
                                                                                                                                                      >though it was an accident to let teh water get that cold..
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >My water tested fine (I also had Petco test for me)...so I got
                                                                                                                                                      >another loach and added him to my 29 gallon that is a pretty stable
                                                                                                                                                      >80 degrees..he went under some drift wood adn I haven't seen him for
                                                                                                                                                      >days...think he is OK? The 29 gallon has a few angels, gouranis and
                                                                                                                                                      >danios...and water tests fine...
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4585 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: mark
                                                                                                                                                      How the heck do you keep the fish still? I've avoided any treatments in
                                                                                                                                                      the past the require actually pulling a fish out of the tank because
                                                                                                                                                      the possibility of further damage to the fish seems to great...

                                                                                                                                                      Tim


                                                                                                                                                      On 25/08/2004, at 12:17 AM, Mark J. Bethke wrote:

                                                                                                                                                      > Thank you Rod for the Explanation,
                                                                                                                                                      > I believe the mistake was in my use of a common name to describe a
                                                                                                                                                      > species when I should have used the latin name to be specific and
                                                                                                                                                      > remove all doubt as to what dang critter I was referring to.
                                                                                                                                                      > This being said (for possibly the second time but I don't keep
                                                                                                                                                      > records) Joe and I did figure it all out, no fire of wars came to be.
                                                                                                                                                      > Now that we have the niceties out of the way and can move on to
                                                                                                                                                      > responsive communication concerning the subject cast into the
                                                                                                                                                      > discussion group .
                                                                                                                                                      > A fascination research paper is to be had here : "Contributing
                                                                                                                                                      > factors in the "Root Cause" for CAE/SAE alteration from normally
                                                                                                                                                      > passive behavior of an herbivore to an aggressive harassing and
                                                                                                                                                      > destructive omnivore."
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > The slime coat harvesting is a good point to look at, have also
                                                                                                                                                      > observed repeated attacks on one place of a particular fish resulting
                                                                                                                                                      > in a ever deepening hole or wound which was finally attended to with
                                                                                                                                                      > triple antibiotic ointment (TAO) , this is a last ditch effort as such
                                                                                                                                                      > a deep wound will not heal on it's own under normal circumstances.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > NOTES on TAO USE:You must first dry the wound but not the area
                                                                                                                                                      > outside the wound, then apply the ointment with a sterile cotton swab,
                                                                                                                                                      > try to cover the entire wound thus creating a boundary so the flesh
                                                                                                                                                      > can heal properly.
                                                                                                                                                      > Well here's to figuring these little devils out , or angels whatever
                                                                                                                                                      > way you look at them. MJB
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Rodrigo Jr. Marquez wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Peace, guys!
                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                      > I think someone has posted before that otocinclus have the potential
                                                                                                                                                      > to be parasitic and that certain conditions (a nutrient deficiency or
                                                                                                                                                      > developing a taste for body slime) can trigger that behavior. I have
                                                                                                                                                      > observed this behavior in 2-3 of my 16 otos so it's not an automatic
                                                                                                                                                      > change of behavior or else I would have ended up with a bleeding or
                                                                                                                                                      > dead discus. This usually happens during feeding time, too, when the
                                                                                                                                                      > discus harasses all the other fish to keep the sinking tablets to
                                                                                                                                                      > himself. Maybe it's an aggression behavior to drive away the discus
                                                                                                                                                      > (they don't do it to each other or the other small fishes) or maybe
                                                                                                                                                      > it's parasitism (but they don't do it all the time and only 2-3 do it
                                                                                                                                                      > among the group).
                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                      > But I do know that Chinese/Siamese algae eaters do become aggressive
                                                                                                                                                      > with age. Yes, a few might turn out to be docile even when mature but
                                                                                                                                                      > that is not often the case. Unless you're keeping much larger fish
                                                                                                                                                      > than these guys, do not put them in with slower or long-finned fishes.
                                                                                                                                                      > And since they are omnivorous, they also might develop a taste for
                                                                                                                                                      > flesh quickly.
                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                      > Rod
                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > mark are you saying that ottos are aggressive, or that
                                                                                                                                                      > chinese algae eaters are agressive, or that all algae
                                                                                                                                                      > eaters are?
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > > You are unique then, you want me to round up about
                                                                                                                                                      > > 100 other fishkeepers
                                                                                                                                                      > > to inform the group want they are "Normally"
                                                                                                                                                      > > like?????
                                                                                                                                                      > > Even your docile obvious prozac subspecies is a a 1
                                                                                                                                                      > > in a 1,000,000. so
                                                                                                                                                      > > be happy FOR NOW, hope the3 fish stay nice. Mark
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > > All algae-eaters don't grow into hypersensitive
                                                                                                                                                      > > territorialists. My
                                                                                                                                                      > > > Otto's  were docile, unconcerned  when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                      > > the tank and would'nt
                                                                                                                                                      > > > hurt a fly.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > >              ! ;  Joe P
                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     Sorry for your loss, those girls meant allot,
                                                                                                                                                      > > I do hope you can
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     get that ph stable. 1st , what is your ph at
                                                                                                                                                      > > tap? and could you
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     test it at a neighbors? If you can test at two
                                                                                                                                                      > > places you might
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     find that you have something causing your own
                                                                                                                                                      > > ph to be so high.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     7.2-7.4 is norm for municipalities, 7.6-8.0 is
                                                                                                                                                      > > alarmingly high. (IMHO)
                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     Did say what other fish you have besides the
                                                                                                                                                      > > white clouds (which
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     instantly go into the innocent file) ????
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     Those wound sound like sucker wounds "Algae
                                                                                                                                                      > > Eaters" which isn't
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     their manner, the only thing they don't eat is
                                                                                                                                                      > > ,,,algae.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     I have seen some nasty wounds from these guys,
                                                                                                                                                      > > yea they are cute
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     when you get them as tiny guys but very soon
                                                                                                                                                      > > they grow into giants
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     and chase, harass and torture their tank mates
                                                                                                                                                      > > and trying to rid
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     them usually leaves you fustrated and your
                                                                                                                                                      > > tank tore up. So word
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     to the wise, don't ! trust them.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     Anyways, hope to hear more, Mark B
                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > >     Audrey Archer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     Well, I appear to have had a strange change
                                                                                                                                                      > > in water parameters
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     that my weak female dwarf gourami just
                                                                                                                                                      > > couldn't cope with; both> >>     of the gouramis had what appeared
                                                                                                                                                      > to be
                                                                                                                                                      > > wounds - round holes and
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     what appeared to be bites out of their dorsal
                                                                                                                                                      > > fins, and male has
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     what appears to be small cuts on one side,
                                                                                                                                                      > > which I am treating
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     with Melafix for a week now without much
                                                                                                                                                      > > change.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     Well, I had skipped my usual weekly water
                                                                                                                                                      > > change Saturday,
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     because the water parameters appeared to be
                                                                                                                                                      > > great and I was
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     concerned about the tiny White Cloud (?)fry
                                                                                                                                                      > > getting sucked up in
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     the gravel washer. My CO2 generator had
                                                                                                                                                      > > stopped giving off
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     bubbles and the pH was creeping up again,
                                                                                                                                                      > > back up to ! 7.6, but my
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     ammonia and nitrites were 0 as always, and
                                                                                                                                                      > > nitrates (thanks to an
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     overabundance of plants) were less than 20
                                                                                                                                                      > > ppm. So I made a fresh
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     CO2 supply (2 c sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 4 c
                                                                                                                                                      > > water, and 1 pkg
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     dr! y yeast floated on top in a 2 litre
                                                                                                                                                      > > washed soda bottle, with
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     an airhose and airstone to diffuse it into
                                                                                                                                                      > > the tank).
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     This evening I found my last of the three
                                                                                                                                                      > > female gouramis,
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     Millie, propped up on top of some plants, and
                                                                                                                                                      > > when I netted her
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     out, I found that she was bleeding from just
                                                                                                                                                      > > below one gill. It
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     broke my heart, but I felt it best to
                                                                                                                                                      > > euthanize her in some water
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     in a baggie in my freezer, rather than see
                                                                                                                                                      > > her continue to
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     suffer, barely breathing. I treated the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > > with Melafix and
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     Stress Coat, after netting Millie out.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     I tested my water parameters again and found
                                                                                                                                                      > > my pH had dropped
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     drastically, to 6.2! (Nitrites and Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                      > > both tested 0, GH
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     150, KH 120) What on earth could have caused
                                                                                                                                                      > > this sudden
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     acidifying of my tank since Saturday? Could
                                                                                                                                                      > > the Melafix have done
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     this? From my tap it is 8.0 (which is why I
                                                                                                                                                      > > wanted an African
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     cichlid tank, but my 10 gallon tank w! as too
                                                                                                                                                      > > small for those I
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     found available at the time, and I really
                                                                                                                                                      > > thought I had better
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     get experie! nce with easier fish first...
                                                                                                                                                      > > which I thought
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     Anabantids and White Clo uds would be), and
                                                                                                                                                      > > the combination of
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     the bacterial cycle in April, a piece of
                                                                                                                                                      > > driftwood in May, and
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     the CO2 generator for my tangle of plants in
                                                                                                                                                      > > July had brought it
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     to 7.2 previously, so I certainly didn't
                                                                                                                                                      > > expect the new mix for
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     the CO2 generator to cause this much of a
                                                                                                                                                      > > change.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     I also found my filter flow had slowed, so I
                                                                                                                                                      > > scrubbed out my
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     intake tube and impe! ller, which helped the
                                                                                                                                                      > > flow considerably.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     (The cartridge had very little debris on it,
                                                                                                                                                      > > I guess because of
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     the limited flow.) Everyone else in the tank
                                                                                                                                                      > > is now very active,
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     including the fry.
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     Any thoughts on what happened? I could sure
                                                                                                                                                      > > use some help here...
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>     thanks! Audrey
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
                                                                                                                                                      > > >>
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                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4586 From: Patrick Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                            The lid for the former betta bowl has the hole, not the snail.  The snail has fallen out so many times I would have thought it would have a hole in it, but it has a good shell.  I feed it hornwort and algae chips, and shrimp pellets sometimes.  I can't even keep it in a tank with just floating hornwort.  I had a big clump go missing one day and it took me a while to figure it out. 
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                        Aw, I missed something here Patrick, did the container have a hole or the snail? I ask as mollusc espescially gastropods is my specicalty (mostly marine but terristrial and amphibious also).
                                                                                                                                                        Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                        PS, OH, there is a fix for a hole in the snail shell
                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4587 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
                                                                                                                                                        they are definately more active at night, so it is
                                                                                                                                                        likely that he is fine and hiding, but 80 is a bit
                                                                                                                                                        high, and a sudden 5 degree change in any tank can be
                                                                                                                                                        fatal to any fish. they are cold blooded and have no
                                                                                                                                                        way to regulate their body heat. it is best to keep
                                                                                                                                                        most fish at 72-76 degrees, but whatever temp you
                                                                                                                                                        decide on, keep it stable.

                                                                                                                                                        --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                        > Hey, anyone know about dojo (weather) loaches? I
                                                                                                                                                        > read about them on
                                                                                                                                                        > loaches.com...but I got one at Petco and put him in
                                                                                                                                                        > my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                        > with was at about 75 degrees...the night got chilly
                                                                                                                                                        > on me and the
                                                                                                                                                        > temp dropped to about 70 degrees and the loach
                                                                                                                                                        > died...I was
                                                                                                                                                        > surprised because I read these loaches can survive
                                                                                                                                                        > cold temps, even
                                                                                                                                                        > though it was an accident to let teh water get that
                                                                                                                                                        > cold..
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > My water tested fine (I also had Petco test for
                                                                                                                                                        > me)...so I got
                                                                                                                                                        > another loach and added him to my 29 gallon that is
                                                                                                                                                        > a pretty stable
                                                                                                                                                        > 80 degrees..he went under some drift wood adn I
                                                                                                                                                        > haven't seen him for
                                                                                                                                                        > days...think he is OK? The 29 gallon has a few
                                                                                                                                                        > angels, gouranis and
                                                                                                                                                        > danios...and water tests fine...
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4588 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: breeding size
                                                                                                                                                        the female will probably be about 2 inches, at least
                                                                                                                                                        mine were.
                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                        --- Ted Angelo <mustard_5@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                        > i have 6 albino aeneus corydoras, how big will they
                                                                                                                                                        > be before they
                                                                                                                                                        > start to spawn? thanks!
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4589 From: Elyse Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                        Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                        I need some advice. I recently relocated to FL and the water here is VERY
                                                                                                                                                        different than in NY.

                                                                                                                                                        I cannot get my pH to stay anywhere above 6.0. It is driving me crazy.
                                                                                                                                                        What can I put in the tank (besides chemicals) to get the pH to naturally
                                                                                                                                                        stay higher?

                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                        Elyse
                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4590 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                        you can float orange peel in the tank for a few days.
                                                                                                                                                        the white part (pith) absorbs the base, and the
                                                                                                                                                        vitamin c is an acid. but what kind of substrate are
                                                                                                                                                        you using, and what for decorations, this may be
                                                                                                                                                        affecting ph.
                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                        --- Elyse <elyse@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                        > Hi all:
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > I need some advice. I recently relocated to FL and
                                                                                                                                                        > the water here is VERY
                                                                                                                                                        > different than in NY.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > I cannot get my pH to stay anywhere above 6.0. It
                                                                                                                                                        > is driving me crazy.
                                                                                                                                                        > What can I put in the tank (besides chemicals) to
                                                                                                                                                        > get the pH to naturally
                                                                                                                                                        > stay higher?
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                        > Elyse
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >





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                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4591 From: devileye72 Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Dojo (Weather) Loaches
                                                                                                                                                        Don't worry if you don't see it very often. Also, don't freak out
                                                                                                                                                        when you see just its head on the bottom of the tank. They like to
                                                                                                                                                        bury themselves with just thier heads sticking up out of the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                        I had two dojos that lived with my discus (85 degrees) and they did
                                                                                                                                                        just fine. They are now in my brother-in-law's tank (also a discus
                                                                                                                                                        tank) because they kept uprooting my plants.

                                                                                                                                                        -Sam

                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "robdar4609"
                                                                                                                                                        <robdar4609@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        > Hey, anyone know about dojo (weather) loaches? I read about them
                                                                                                                                                        on
                                                                                                                                                        > loaches.com...but I got one at Petco and put him in my 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                        > with was at about 75 degrees...the night got chilly on me and the
                                                                                                                                                        > temp dropped to about 70 degrees and the loach died...I was
                                                                                                                                                        > surprised because I read these loaches can survive cold temps, even
                                                                                                                                                        > though it was an accident to let teh water get that cold..
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > My water tested fine (I also had Petco test for me)...so I got
                                                                                                                                                        > another loach and added him to my 29 gallon that is a pretty stable
                                                                                                                                                        > 80 degrees..he went under some drift wood adn I haven't seen him
                                                                                                                                                        for
                                                                                                                                                        > days...think he is OK? The 29 gallon has a few angels, gouranis
                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                        > danios...and water tests fine...
                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4592 From: Patrick Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                              If this is to make the water more acid and absorb the base in the water, that would make pH go down.  They need it to go up.
                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4593 From: paul helms Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                          oops read that wrong
                                                                                                                                                          thought she wanted it at 6.8 ish

                                                                                                                                                          --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                          > If this is to make the water more acid and
                                                                                                                                                          > absorb the base in the water,
                                                                                                                                                          > that would make pH go down. They need it to go up.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                                                                                          > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                          > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                          > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                          > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                          > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                          > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in
                                                                                                                                                          > June.
                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                          > gravel in spots, sponge filter.





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                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4594 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 8/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                          Elyse,

                                                                                                                                                          Take a bag of cuttle bone or coral gravel and put it in the filter chamber.
                                                                                                                                                          Increasing KH is the best way to increase PH rather then adding chemicals to
                                                                                                                                                          increase the PH. In such low PH I could have had a substrate of coral sand
                                                                                                                                                          overall.

                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                          >From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 27 August 2004 02:37
                                                                                                                                                          >To: TropicalFishConnection@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                          >FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                          >tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >Hi all:
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >I need some advice. I recently relocated to FL and the water here is VERY
                                                                                                                                                          >different than in NY.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >I cannot get my pH to stay anywhere above 6.0. It is driving me crazy.
                                                                                                                                                          >What can I put in the tank (besides chemicals) to get the pH to naturally
                                                                                                                                                          >stay higher?
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                          >Elyse
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4595 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                          Never heard or read that corys can walk across land before. It does not seem
                                                                                                                                                          possible given the location and mobility of their pectoral fins, which would
                                                                                                                                                          be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                          seem to have the body flexibility to propel themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                          land. Where did you pick up this information?

                                                                                                                                                          It is true that they will swim to the surface of the water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                          periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.

                                                                                                                                                          \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                          From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                          confused


                                                                                                                                                          Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                          short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                          augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                          Joe P
                                                                                                                                                          -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                          he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                          he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                          on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                          odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                          Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember you
                                                                                                                                                          never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead? Since
                                                                                                                                                          they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                          problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                          had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                          introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                          parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or four
                                                                                                                                                          goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                          Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding to
                                                                                                                                                          greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                          probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks pretty
                                                                                                                                                          to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                          Joe P













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                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4596 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 8/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Back on the Subject of pleco's
                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                          First off wanted to thank those who responded to my question on plecos earlier this week. Well as it figures I bought a pleco that I didn't even ask about on here. But the reason for that was my LFS sold the last of the rhino's they had and the other plecos they had excluding the commons were all the same price. So i had a choice between a bushy nose, green phantom, blue phantom, gold nugget, and royal. I decided to go with the royal as i liked his pattern and color. Now the observations i've made thus far is he's definately eating algae as i'm getting a zig zag patern cut through the algae. But I thought pleco's were supposed to be nocturnal more or less. Mine hides in a cave at night when the lights go out and comes out to eat during the day when lights are on and is actively moving around. Are some pleco's diurnal?
                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4597 From: iloveguppies Date: 8/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: SHIPPING FISH
                                                                                                                                                          Hey everybody, I'm on vacation and found some beautiful goldfish I
                                                                                                                                                          would love to bring home, they airlines say I can't Put them on or
                                                                                                                                                          under the plane, so I wanted to ship them from here but can't find
                                                                                                                                                          any of the bag buddies people use when they ship, if anyone has
                                                                                                                                                          shipped fish, can they be shipped with out them? thanks
                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4598 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                          H'lo.
                                                                                                                                                          Since I first read Corydoras' are somewhat motile on land, and
                                                                                                                                                          use/need/developed respiratory augmentation beyond their gills, I felt the
                                                                                                                                                          two seem complimentary, and served an evolutionary need, like Bettas' need
                                                                                                                                                          to augment respiration in oxygen starved waters. I'd noticed my Corys'
                                                                                                                                                          propped-up on their pectoral fins regularly, and it seemed natural to
                                                                                                                                                          believe that stance could be adapted to land motility should the need arise.
                                                                                                                                                          It seemed appropriate the air-gulping, respiration augmentation would fit
                                                                                                                                                          the land mobility to a "T". If you were paralysed in both legs, you would'nt
                                                                                                                                                          ordinarily need flexability to pull your body over land if you had spikes in
                                                                                                                                                          both hands, and it's possible the Corydora has an advantage in whatever
                                                                                                                                                          flexability exists in its body.
                                                                                                                                                          I can't find my original source, but did a search on GOOGLE, and came up
                                                                                                                                                          with the following site that confirms my original input, and describes the
                                                                                                                                                          process under:
                                                                                                                                                          FINS


                                                                                                                                                          http://fish.mongabay.com/anatomy.htm

                                                                                                                                                          JoeP
                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                          From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                          To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                          confused


                                                                                                                                                          > Never heard or read that corys can walk across land before. It does not
                                                                                                                                                          seem
                                                                                                                                                          > possible given the location and mobility of their pectoral fins, which
                                                                                                                                                          would
                                                                                                                                                          > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                          > seem to have the body flexibility to propel themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                          > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > It is true that they will swim to the surface of the water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                          > periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                          > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                          > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                          > confused
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                          > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                          > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                          > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                          > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                          > he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                          > on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                          > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                          > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember
                                                                                                                                                          you
                                                                                                                                                          > never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead?
                                                                                                                                                          Since
                                                                                                                                                          > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                          > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                          > had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                          > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                          > parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or
                                                                                                                                                          four
                                                                                                                                                          > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                          > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding
                                                                                                                                                          to
                                                                                                                                                          > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                          > probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks
                                                                                                                                                          pretty
                                                                                                                                                          > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                          > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4599 From: Patrick Date: 8/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                There is one reference to a Corydoras and the next paragraph does discuss the use of fins to walk.  That paragraph doesn't refer to the corydoras.  I do agree that those fins do look strong enough to pull a cory along on the ground, and it seems I've heard that before, too.  I have no idea if it is true, but my cories sit on those fins like they could walk on them if they really really wanted to.
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4600 From: paul helms Date: 8/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                            they can walk short distances on their pectoral fins.
                                                                                                                                                            i have only seen them make it about a foot or so when
                                                                                                                                                            they have jumped out of the tank..
                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                            --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            > Never heard or read that corys can walk across land
                                                                                                                                                            > before. It does not seem
                                                                                                                                                            > possible given the location and mobility of their
                                                                                                                                                            > pectoral fins, which would
                                                                                                                                                            > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion
                                                                                                                                                            > across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                            > seem to have the body flexibility to propel
                                                                                                                                                            > themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                            > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > It is true that they will swim to the surface of the
                                                                                                                                                            > water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                            > periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                            > [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda
                                                                                                                                                            > goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            > confused
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can
                                                                                                                                                            > use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                            > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to
                                                                                                                                                            > store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                            > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still
                                                                                                                                                            > alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                            > he did that faring his body all over the tank and
                                                                                                                                                            > then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                            > on his back and then lays there and like minutes
                                                                                                                                                            > later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                            > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                            > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or
                                                                                                                                                            > cleaning? I remember you
                                                                                                                                                            > never did answer my question as to whether the fish
                                                                                                                                                            > was alive or dead? Since
                                                                                                                                                            > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving
                                                                                                                                                            > waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                            > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to
                                                                                                                                                            > the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                            > had a large goldfish that went belly-up
                                                                                                                                                            > periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                            > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the
                                                                                                                                                            > tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                            > parasites, Did that years ago when I first started.
                                                                                                                                                            > The other three or four
                                                                                                                                                            > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for
                                                                                                                                                            > years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                            > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though,
                                                                                                                                                            > because of the breeding to
                                                                                                                                                            > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember
                                                                                                                                                            > correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                            > probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple
                                                                                                                                                            > so the fish looks pretty
                                                                                                                                                            > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4601 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                            Greetings Mr. Pasca,

                                                                                                                                                            I find this very interesting,  your outline has based the terrestrial mobility of the Corydora's upon it's ability to stand erect upon the pectoral fins .
                                                                                                                                                            This of course is plausible,  by observation one would note their "Stance", tail resting on bottom, head raised higher by elevation upon their erect fins. 
                                                                                                                                                            But I have yet to see them (Cory's) "Walk" by any means at all while submerged not even in the slightest manner.  In addition, the stance as I am referring to it here seems to have Evolved or Developed for one or two reasons.

                                                                                                                                                            1) to prevent predators from consuming them, the erect fins jab into the throat of the predator thus they cannot be swallowed and are                 coughed up and they Cory's go about their usual business, safe knowing that some big fish missed it's meal ticket. This is a given, already         known fact.

                                                                                                                                                            2) to elevate the Cory from the bottom to help them see better , this would be somewhat plausible but doubtful.

                                                                                                                                                            So to further your claims *validity* we would need to prove at least two facts:

                                                                                                                                                            1) If put on a wet surface out of water can they walk [try and conceal yourself as not to interfere with the experiment's outcome]
                                                                                                                                                            2) Upon dissection could one of two taxonomical features be found , a "Labyrinth" type organ or a cavity or void near the gills where water         could be stored.

                                                                                                                                                            Walking Catfish use the latter method as does many marine crabs, mollusca and crustations.

                                                                                                                                                            Well cheers to a intresting subject, thanks for the presention, will look forward to either the outcome of the experiments of the rebuttal, once again , thanks ., Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                            *until all facts are know and all tests taken nothing is off the slate*


                                                                                                                                                            this one fact seems to derail the argument, but no offense to your idea, It is sound in fundamentals but lacks

                                                                                                                                                            j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            H'lo.
                                                                                                                                                               Since I first read Corydoras' are somewhat motile on land, and
                                                                                                                                                            use/need/developed respiratory augmentation beyond their gills, I felt the
                                                                                                                                                            two seem complimentary, and served an evolutionary need, like Bettas' need
                                                                                                                                                            to augment respiration in oxygen starved waters. I'd noticed my Corys'
                                                                                                                                                            propped-up on their pectoral fins regularly, and it seemed natural to
                                                                                                                                                            believe that stance could be adapted to land motility should the need arise.
                                                                                                                                                            It seemed appropriate the air-gulping, respiration augmentation would fit
                                                                                                                                                            the land mobility to a "T". If you were paralysed in both legs, you would'nt
                                                                                                                                                            ordinarily need flexability to pull your body over land if you had spikes in
                                                                                                                                                            both hands, and it's possible the Corydora has an advantage in whatever
                                                                                                                                                            flexability exists in its body.
                                                                                                                                                               I can't find my original source, but did a search on GOOGLE, and came up
                                                                                                                                                            with the following site that confirms my original input, and describes the
                                                                                                                                                            process under:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               FINS


                                                                                                                                                            http://fish.mongabay.com/anatomy.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        JoeP
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            confused


                                                                                                                                                            > Never heard or read that corys can walk across land before. It does not
                                                                                                                                                            seem
                                                                                                                                                            > possible given the location and mobility of their pectoral fins, which
                                                                                                                                                            would
                                                                                                                                                            > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                            > seem to have the body flexibility to propel themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                            > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > It is true that they will swim to the surface of the water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                            > periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            > confused
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >    Did you know that  (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                            > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                            > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                            >                             Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            >    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                            > he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                            > on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                            > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                            > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember
                                                                                                                                                            you
                                                                                                                                                            > never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead?
                                                                                                                                                            Since
                                                                                                                                                            > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                            > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                            > had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                            > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                            > parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or
                                                                                                                                                            four
                                                                                                                                                            > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                            > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding
                                                                                                                                                            to
                                                                                                                                                            > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                            > probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks
                                                                                                                                                            pretty
                                                                                                                                                            > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4602 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                            Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                            Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                            related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                            the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 12:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                            There is one reference to a Corydoras and the next paragraph does
                                                                                                                                                            discuss the use of fins to walk. That paragraph doesn't refer to the
                                                                                                                                                            corydoras. I do agree that those fins do look strong enough to pull a cory
                                                                                                                                                            along on the ground, and it seems I've heard that before, too. I have no
                                                                                                                                                            idea if it is true, but my cories sit on those fins like they could walk on
                                                                                                                                                            them if they really really wanted to.

                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                            Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                            home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                            cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                            recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                            hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                            Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                            filter.








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                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4603 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                            JoeP,

                                                                                                                                                            I looked at your link, and that is not convincing enough. The talk is about
                                                                                                                                                            catfish in general, and not about _Corydoras_ specifically. If you dig a bit
                                                                                                                                                            further into the site, http://www.mongabay.com/fish/corydoradinae.htm, in
                                                                                                                                                            particular, there is no mention of any _Corydoras_ spp. "walking".

                                                                                                                                                            I did a search on SCIRUS, and did not find one mention that is indicative of
                                                                                                                                                            _Corydoras_ being able to walk on land. (In case anyone is wondering, SCIRUS
                                                                                                                                                            is a scientific search engine, and can be found at http://www.scirus.com.)
                                                                                                                                                            While this is far from conclusive, it does seem to point toward the
                                                                                                                                                            _Corydoras_ spp. not being able to walk on land.

                                                                                                                                                            I have also written to a couple of fairly well known catfish people with the
                                                                                                                                                            inquiry as to whether there is any evidence that any _Corydoras_ spp. has
                                                                                                                                                            this ability. I would suspect that I would get an answer within the next few
                                                                                                                                                            days that may resolve the question, or lead to further research on the
                                                                                                                                                            question. Should the answer uphold your position, I will gracefully yield on
                                                                                                                                                            this point.

                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 7:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            confused



                                                                                                                                                            H'lo.
                                                                                                                                                            Since I first read Corydoras' are somewhat motile on land, and
                                                                                                                                                            use/need/developed respiratory augmentation beyond their gills, I felt the
                                                                                                                                                            two seem complimentary, and served an evolutionary need, like Bettas' need
                                                                                                                                                            to augment respiration in oxygen starved waters. I'd noticed my Corys'
                                                                                                                                                            propped-up on their pectoral fins regularly, and it seemed natural to
                                                                                                                                                            believe that stance could be adapted to land motility should the need arise.
                                                                                                                                                            It seemed appropriate the air-gulping, respiration augmentation would fit
                                                                                                                                                            the land mobility to a "T". If you were paralysed in both legs, you would'nt
                                                                                                                                                            ordinarily need flexability to pull your body over land if you had spikes in
                                                                                                                                                            both hands, and it's possible the Corydora has an advantage in whatever
                                                                                                                                                            flexability exists in its body.
                                                                                                                                                            I can't find my original source, but did a search on GOOGLE, and came up
                                                                                                                                                            with the following site that confirms my original input, and describes the
                                                                                                                                                            process under:
                                                                                                                                                            FINS


                                                                                                                                                            http://fish.mongabay.com/anatomy.htm

                                                                                                                                                            JoeP
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            confused


                                                                                                                                                            > Never heard or read that corys can walk across land before. It does not
                                                                                                                                                            seem
                                                                                                                                                            > possible given the location and mobility of their pectoral fins, which
                                                                                                                                                            would
                                                                                                                                                            > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                            > seem to have the body flexibility to propel themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                            > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > It is true that they will swim to the surface of the water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                            > periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            > confused
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                            > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                            > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                            > he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                            > on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                            > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                            > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember
                                                                                                                                                            you
                                                                                                                                                            > never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead?
                                                                                                                                                            Since
                                                                                                                                                            > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                            > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                            > had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                            > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                            > parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or
                                                                                                                                                            four
                                                                                                                                                            > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                            > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding
                                                                                                                                                            to
                                                                                                                                                            > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                            > probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks
                                                                                                                                                            pretty
                                                                                                                                                            > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4604 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                            Paul,

                                                                                                                                                            OK, some anecdotal evidence in JoeP's favor.

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 12:29 AM
                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            confused



                                                                                                                                                            they can walk short distances on their pectoral fins.
                                                                                                                                                            i have only seen them make it about a foot or so when
                                                                                                                                                            they have jumped out of the tank..
                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                            --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            > Never heard or read that corys can walk across land
                                                                                                                                                            > before. It does not seem
                                                                                                                                                            > possible given the location and mobility of their
                                                                                                                                                            > pectoral fins, which would
                                                                                                                                                            > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion
                                                                                                                                                            > across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                            > seem to have the body flexibility to propel
                                                                                                                                                            > themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                            > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > It is true that they will swim to the surface of the
                                                                                                                                                            > water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                            > periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                            > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                            > [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda
                                                                                                                                                            > goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                            > confused
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can
                                                                                                                                                            > use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                            > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to
                                                                                                                                                            > store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                            > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still
                                                                                                                                                            > alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                            > he did that faring his body all over the tank and
                                                                                                                                                            > then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                            > on his back and then lays there and like minutes
                                                                                                                                                            > later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                            > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                            > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or
                                                                                                                                                            > cleaning? I remember you
                                                                                                                                                            > never did answer my question as to whether the fish
                                                                                                                                                            > was alive or dead? Since
                                                                                                                                                            > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving
                                                                                                                                                            > waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                            > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to
                                                                                                                                                            > the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                            > had a large goldfish that went belly-up
                                                                                                                                                            > periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                            > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the
                                                                                                                                                            > tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                            > parasites, Did that years ago when I first started.
                                                                                                                                                            > The other three or four
                                                                                                                                                            > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for
                                                                                                                                                            > years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                            > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though,
                                                                                                                                                            > because of the breeding to
                                                                                                                                                            > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember
                                                                                                                                                            > correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                            > probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple
                                                                                                                                                            > so the fish looks pretty
                                                                                                                                                            > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4605 From: Patrick Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                  I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet.  If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far.  Plus, why would they need that ability?  Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year?  If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                              Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                              Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                              related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                              the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4606 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                              Morning Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                              Did you see my reply to the cory message?
                                                                                                                                                              To be able to wonder out of a water hole and venture possibly hundreds of feet to another source takes more than the ability to stand erect or move slightly, it needs to get moving rather fast for a fish. I have seen walking Catfish in Florida , they really put the steam to full and stoke up the boiler. They don't walk, they sort of position themselves on the pectorals and flip side to side, they keep a bit of water in a cavity near their gills to keep them wet, they seem to be able to partially absorb O2 for a short time but not like a labyrinth.

                                                                                                                                                              So there is much more to amphibious travel by a fish then simply standing erect.
                                                                                                                                                              Not to belittle, just making a point, besides, it's saturday, time to relax. watch the pond.
                                                                                                                                                              MJB

                                                                                                                                                              Patrick wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet.  If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far.  Plus, why would they need that ability?  Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year?  If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                              Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                              Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                              related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                              the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//





                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4607 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                   To Patrick and all,
                                                                                                                                                                      The following link describes an Aspidora climbing:
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                      This link (following) describes the weather process in habitats:
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                While nothing specific to the Corydoras alleged ability to move over dry/muddy land, it points in the direction of the original allegation (by Dr. Axelrod, I believe) that they can indeed, walk.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                    I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet.  If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far.  Plus, why would they need that ability?  Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year?  If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                                related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                                the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4608 From: freedombell2002 Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Pelco? does anyone have more then one?
                                                                                                                                                                Hello all

                                                                                                                                                                Has anyone keep more then one Pelco in the same tank? and do they get
                                                                                                                                                                along ?

                                                                                                                                                                Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4609 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                So they climbed up a glass or plex (you didn't indicate the material used in the tank construction) walls of your tank, I think I know what species these are, Corydoras Spidermansis, they were first Authored by Marvel Comics , rather intresting creatures. OK I'm making light of the topic , excuse me, I'm not laughing at you , just the vision in my mind of Cory cats scaling glass walls and I'm not disputing your observations as it's first hand thus undisputable.

                                                                                                                                                                A wise man once told me that what we read in books isn't nessasarily applicable since, in this case, *fish can't read*.

                                                                                                                                                                Bravo on the nice report, keep it up, good to know I can enrich my knowledge base on a daily basis. BTW, hope to see images of them fry growing up, just wish we could post to list, can't get that list page to activate, my AV program goes ballistic. And as for YahooGroups not allowing, well I don't know about the protocals of which this list was set up on but on two other lists I attend they do post and they are YahooGroups....
                                                                                                                                                                MJB

                                                                                                                                                                *this I state since I have been on mollusc collecting expeditions and found species outside their normal habitat so it's always been the "Funny" that we should teach the creatures to read so they know where they are supposed to be*

                                                                                                                                                                j.pascavage@comcast.net wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                   To Patrick and all,
                                                                                                                                                                      The following link describes an Aspidora climbing:
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                      This link (following) describes the weather process in habitats:
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                While nothing specific to the Corydoras alleged ability to move over dry/muddy land, it points in the direction of the original allegation (by Dr. Axelrod, I believe) that they can indeed, walk.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                    I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet.  If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far.  Plus, why would they need that ability?  Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year?  If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                                related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                                the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//





                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4610 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                       The link describes the authors Aspidora climbing a net. Also, he mentioned he had'nt noticed his Corydoras' doing the same thing.  (you could type the link into your address-bar.)

                                                                                                                                                                   I imagine 'till the Corys' are seen marching down Third-Avenue, some will deny the possibility. And then, not having been there to see the march, will insist it was trick photography.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Joe P 

                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                So they climbed up a glass or plex (you didn't indicate the material used in the tank construction) walls of your tank, I think I know what species these are, Corydoras Spidermansis, they were first Authored by Marvel Comics , rather intresting creatures. OK I'm making light of the topic , excuse me, I'm not laughing at you , just the vision in my mind of Cory cats scaling glass walls and I'm not disputing your observations as it's first hand thus undisputable.

                                                                                                                                                                A wise man once told me that what we read in books isn't nessasarily applicable since, in this case, *fish can't read*.

                                                                                                                                                                Bravo on the nice report, keep it up, good to know I can enrich my knowledge base on a daily basis. BTW, hope to see images of them fry growing up, just wish we could post to list, can't get that list page to activate, my AV program goes ballistic. And as for YahooGroups not allowing, well I don't know about the protocals of which this list was set up on but on two other lists I attend they do post and they are YahooGroups....
                                                                                                                                                                MJB

                                                                                                                                                                *this I state since I have been on mollusc collecting expeditions and found species outside their normal habitat so it's always been the "Funny" that we should teach the creatures to read so they know where they are supposed to be*

                                                                                                                                                                j.pascavage@comcast.net wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                To Patrick and all,
                                                                                                                                                                The following link describes an Aspidora climbing:
                                                                                                                                                                This link (following) describes the weather process in habitats:
                                                                                                                                                                While nothing specific to the Corydoras alleged ability to move over dry/muddy land, it points in the direction of the original allegation (by Dr. Axelrod, I believe) that they can indeed, walk.
                                                                                                                                                                Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet. If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far. Plus, why would they need that ability? Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year? If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                                related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                                the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//















                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4611 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                                As Promised in the post I am replying to, one of my friends has replied, and
                                                                                                                                                                I have reproduced his reply here:

                                                                                                                                                                ----------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Corys Walking


                                                                                                                                                                Hi Steve,

                                                                                                                                                                Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).

                                                                                                                                                                Lee
                                                                                                                                                                ------------------------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                I have not yet heard from the other acquaintance as of this evening, but
                                                                                                                                                                will post his reply when and if I get it.

                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                From: Steve Szabo [mailto:stevesz@...]
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 12:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                                confused



                                                                                                                                                                JoeP,

                                                                                                                                                                I looked at your link, and that is not convincing enough. The talk is about
                                                                                                                                                                catfish in general, and not about _Corydoras_ specifically. If you dig a bit
                                                                                                                                                                further into the site, http://www.mongabay.com/fish/corydoradinae.htm, in
                                                                                                                                                                particular, there is no mention of any _Corydoras_ spp. "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                I did a search on SCIRUS, and did not find one mention that is indicative of
                                                                                                                                                                _Corydoras_ being able to walk on land. (In case anyone is wondering, SCIRUS
                                                                                                                                                                is a scientific search engine, and can be found at http://www.scirus.com.)
                                                                                                                                                                While this is far from conclusive, it does seem to point toward the
                                                                                                                                                                _Corydoras_ spp. not being able to walk on land.

                                                                                                                                                                I have also written to a couple of fairly well known catfish people with the
                                                                                                                                                                inquiry as to whether there is any evidence that any _Corydoras_ spp. has
                                                                                                                                                                this ability. I would suspect that I would get an answer within the next few
                                                                                                                                                                days that may resolve the question, or lead to further research on the
                                                                                                                                                                question. Should the answer uphold your position, I will gracefully yield on
                                                                                                                                                                this point.

                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 7:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                                confused



                                                                                                                                                                H'lo.
                                                                                                                                                                Since I first read Corydoras' are somewhat motile on land, and
                                                                                                                                                                use/need/developed respiratory augmentation beyond their gills, I felt the
                                                                                                                                                                two seem complimentary, and served an evolutionary need, like Bettas' need
                                                                                                                                                                to augment respiration in oxygen starved waters. I'd noticed my Corys'
                                                                                                                                                                propped-up on their pectoral fins regularly, and it seemed natural to
                                                                                                                                                                believe that stance could be adapted to land motility should the need arise.
                                                                                                                                                                It seemed appropriate the air-gulping, respiration augmentation would fit
                                                                                                                                                                the land mobility to a "T". If you were paralysed in both legs, you would'nt
                                                                                                                                                                ordinarily need flexability to pull your body over land if you had spikes in
                                                                                                                                                                both hands, and it's possible the Corydora has an advantage in whatever
                                                                                                                                                                flexability exists in its body.
                                                                                                                                                                I can't find my original source, but did a search on GOOGLE, and came up
                                                                                                                                                                with the following site that confirms my original input, and describes the
                                                                                                                                                                process under:
                                                                                                                                                                FINS


                                                                                                                                                                http://fish.mongabay.com/anatomy.htm

                                                                                                                                                                JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                                confused


                                                                                                                                                                > Never heard or read that corys can walk across land before. It does not
                                                                                                                                                                seem
                                                                                                                                                                > possible given the location and mobility of their pectoral fins, which
                                                                                                                                                                would
                                                                                                                                                                > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                                > seem to have the body flexibility to propel themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                                > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                > It is true that they will swim to the surface of the water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                                > periodically. That is one of their endearing traits.
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                                > confused
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                > Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                                > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air to store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                                > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                                > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                > he is still alive i posted this am that he was still alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                                > he did that faring his body all over the tank and then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                                > on his back and then lays there and like minutes later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                                > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or cleaning? I remember
                                                                                                                                                                you
                                                                                                                                                                > never did answer my question as to whether the fish was alive or dead?
                                                                                                                                                                Since
                                                                                                                                                                > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                                > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                                > had a large goldfish that went belly-up periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                                > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                                > parasites, Did that years ago when I first started. The other three or
                                                                                                                                                                four
                                                                                                                                                                > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived for years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                                > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though, because of the breeding
                                                                                                                                                                to
                                                                                                                                                                > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                                > probs are one of the results of breeding to cripple so the fish looks
                                                                                                                                                                pretty
                                                                                                                                                                > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                                > Joe P






                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4612 From: Star Wolf Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                Hi everyone
                                                                                                                                                                It has been a long time since I had a tank around the house. I have a
                                                                                                                                                                pond in the back yard with messy old goldfish and mosquito eating
                                                                                                                                                                guppies, however, that is not the point.
                                                                                                                                                                I have acquired a 50 gallon tank, set it up with plants and rocks, and
                                                                                                                                                                now I am ready to start thinking about what kinds of fish to put in
                                                                                                                                                                this beautiful tank that resides in my living room. The goal is to
                                                                                                                                                                have an environment indoors that can help lower my blood pressure and
                                                                                                                                                                continue to be a positive experience for the whole family, including
                                                                                                                                                                our 5 year old son.
                                                                                                                                                                I would like a nice variety of fish that do not grow to over 4-5
                                                                                                                                                                inches, some with color is eye catching and aesthetically pleasing,
                                                                                                                                                                but not a requirement. I would like to have good community fish that
                                                                                                                                                                don't try to eat each other's fins off and ones that will not destroy
                                                                                                                                                                the live plants I have in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                I am asking for some advice on which fish would be good together in
                                                                                                                                                                our tank as well as wondering if my expectations of a community of
                                                                                                                                                                fish are unreasonable.
                                                                                                                                                                Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4613 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                Hi Star,

                                                                                                                                                                Congratulations on ur new tank.

                                                                                                                                                                Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys, betta,
                                                                                                                                                                a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.

                                                                                                                                                                All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                other.

                                                                                                                                                                You can study on the web in detail and then decide on
                                                                                                                                                                what pleases u and ur family.

                                                                                                                                                                Hope this helps..SuNnY !

                                                                                                                                                                --- Star Wolf <bevjossy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                > Hi everyone
                                                                                                                                                                > It has been a long time since I had a tank around
                                                                                                                                                                > the house. I have a
                                                                                                                                                                > pond in the back yard with messy old goldfish and
                                                                                                                                                                > mosquito eating
                                                                                                                                                                > guppies, however, that is not the point.
                                                                                                                                                                > I have acquired a 50 gallon tank, set it up with
                                                                                                                                                                > plants and rocks, and
                                                                                                                                                                > now I am ready to start thinking about what kinds of
                                                                                                                                                                > fish to put in
                                                                                                                                                                > this beautiful tank that resides in my living room.
                                                                                                                                                                > The goal is to
                                                                                                                                                                > have an environment indoors that can help lower my
                                                                                                                                                                > blood pressure and
                                                                                                                                                                > continue to be a positive experience for the whole
                                                                                                                                                                > family, including
                                                                                                                                                                > our 5 year old son.
                                                                                                                                                                > I would like a nice variety of fish that do not grow
                                                                                                                                                                > to over 4-5
                                                                                                                                                                > inches, some with color is eye catching and
                                                                                                                                                                > aesthetically pleasing,
                                                                                                                                                                > but not a requirement. I would like to have good
                                                                                                                                                                > community fish that
                                                                                                                                                                > don't try to eat each other's fins off and ones that
                                                                                                                                                                > will not destroy
                                                                                                                                                                > the live plants I have in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                > I am asking for some advice on which fish would be
                                                                                                                                                                > good together in
                                                                                                                                                                > our tank as well as wondering if my expectations of
                                                                                                                                                                > a community of
                                                                                                                                                                > fish are unreasonable.
                                                                                                                                                                > Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                                =====




                                                                                                                                                                got Fish? ~ do you Yahoo!? ~ I've got a group for you!

                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium

                                                                                                                                                                stop by and see ~ membership is free!









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                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4614 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                  Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                     My apologies! ( I either fear or detest typing very long web-addresses, and one of the results was in the last email I sent, which had two-errors. I sometimes send such emails to myself to try the addresses before I send them, but, anyway.......) Below the next two addresses is the correct link. The first page contains the cover of a book by Burgess, about Corydoras, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                     Clicking 'next', or 'next-page' from that page then the next, will take you to an introduction that claims Corydoras belong to a family that adapted to no/low O2, AND the ability to move to wetter pastures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                    This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                        Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                  From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                      I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet.  If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far.  Plus, why would they need that ability?  Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year?  If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                  Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                                  related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                                  the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                  \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4615 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                      This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                          Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?

                                                                                                                                                                        I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much further than 2 feet.  If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they would get that far.  Plus, why would they need that ability?  Do they come from an area that dries up part of the year?  If not, there would be no need to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                    Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                                    related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                                    the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4616 From: Elyse Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for your help! I did decide to go with this solution. Will check
                                                                                                                                                                    levels again in a week and see how I goes.!!


                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                    elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.elyserachel.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Ripley's page: http://www.dogster.com/dog_page.php?j=t&i=36163

                                                                                                                                                                    AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                    MSN: ElyseRachel@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo: ElyseRachel@...

                                                                                                                                                                    Chihuahua Rescue and Transport (CRT):
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.chihuahua-rescue.org
                                                                                                                                                                    The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                    The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                    PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.petfinder.com
                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Low pH troubles ...


                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse,

                                                                                                                                                                    Take a bag of cuttle bone or coral gravel and put it in the filter chamber.
                                                                                                                                                                    Increasing KH is the best way to increase PH rather then adding chemicals to
                                                                                                                                                                    increase the PH. In such low PH I could have had a substrate of coral sand
                                                                                                                                                                    overall.

                                                                                                                                                                    Nim


                                                                                                                                                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    >From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    >Sent: 27 August 2004 02:37
                                                                                                                                                                    >To: TropicalFishConnection@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                    >FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                    >tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Low pH troubles ...
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >Hi all:
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >I need some advice. I recently relocated to FL and the water here is VERY
                                                                                                                                                                    >different than in NY.
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >I cannot get my pH to stay anywhere above 6.0. It is driving me crazy.
                                                                                                                                                                    >What can I put in the tank (besides chemicals) to get the pH to naturally
                                                                                                                                                                    >stay higher?
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    >Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    >






                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4617 From: Elyse Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                                    As if 4 tanks were not enough, I recently decided to set up yet another tank
                                                                                                                                                                    (a 29 gallon). Yes, I am up to 5. This one I am dedicating to my new love
                                                                                                                                                                    for snails. I have managed to acquire quite a collection including, Light
                                                                                                                                                                    and Dark Purple Apples, Blue Apples and 3 types of Rams Horns (Golden, Red
                                                                                                                                                                    and Columbian).

                                                                                                                                                                    Well the Rams Horns settled in and within 24 hours they were copulating.
                                                                                                                                                                    The large golden male is after all the females. I was wondering how long
                                                                                                                                                                    after copulation should I expect to see egg laying.

                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                    elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.elyserachel.com

                                                                                                                                                                    AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                    MSN: ElyseRachel@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo: ElyseRachel@...

                                                                                                                                                                    Chihuahua Rescue and Transport (CRT):
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.chihuahua-rescue.org
                                                                                                                                                                    The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                    The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                    PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.petfinder.com

                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: TropicalFishConnection@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                    FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                    tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Low pH troubles ...

                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                                    I need some advice. I recently relocated to FL and the water here is VERY
                                                                                                                                                                    different than in NY.

                                                                                                                                                                    I cannot get my pH to stay anywhere above 6.0. It is driving me crazy.
                                                                                                                                                                    What can I put in the tank (besides chemicals) to get the pH to naturally
                                                                                                                                                                    stay higher?

                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse







                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4618 From: Scorp1on Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    At least it looks like you have something easy to take care of in tank 5. Our 5th the wife just finished cycling for dwarf seahorses. 
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                                    As if 4 tanks were not enough, I recently decided to set up yet another tank
                                                                                                                                                                    (a 29 gallon).  Yes, I am up to 5.  This one I am dedicating to my new love
                                                                                                                                                                    for snails.  I have managed to acquire quite a collection including, Light
                                                                                                                                                                    and Dark Purple Apples, Blue Apples and 3 types of Rams Horns (Golden, Red
                                                                                                                                                                    and Columbian).

                                                                                                                                                                    Well the Rams Horns settled in and within 24 hours they were copulating.
                                                                                                                                                                    The large golden male is after all the females.  I was wondering how long
                                                                                                                                                                    after copulation should I expect to see egg laying.

                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                    elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.elyserachel.com
                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                    AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                    MSN: ElyseRachel@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo: ElyseRachel@...

                                                                                                                                                                    Chihuahua Rescue and Transport (CRT):
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.chihuahua-rescue.org
                                                                                                                                                                    The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                    The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                    PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.petfinder.com

                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: TropicalFishConnection@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                    FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                    tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Low pH troubles ...

                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                                    I need some advice.  I recently relocated to FL and the water here is VERY
                                                                                                                                                                    different than in NY.

                                                                                                                                                                    I cannot get my pH to stay anywhere above 6.0.  It is driving me crazy.
                                                                                                                                                                    What can I put in the tank (besides chemicals) to get the pH to naturally
                                                                                                                                                                    stay higher?

                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse





                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links









                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4619 From: bryants4god Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    You can't predict when the apple snails will lay eggs after breeding, they storm sperm up to 6 months.  An adult female can lay a clutch a week (sometimes more) once she starts laying.  The snails need to be over an inch long to be fertile. Make sure there is at least 2 in of head space to encourage egg laying.  If you don't leave that space they will lay on the lid.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    Egg laying is stimulated by 30% water changes and warm temps. (78-80)
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    For the ph, if you have access to aragonite substrate it buffers to 8.0.  Small amounts of baking soda also increase ph.  In my opinion a mix of aragonite and crushed coral is the best snail substrate.  My snails have beautiful strong shells.  I can tell a difference in the shells from when I started using this substrate mix.  I have a combined 220 gallons of tanks just for snails :-)
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    You may want to look at www.applesnail.net for further information.
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 6:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; TropicalFishConnection@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; tropical-fish@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Snails & Breeding

                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                                    As if 4 tanks were not enough, I recently decided to set up yet another tank
                                                                                                                                                                    (a 29 gallon).  Yes, I am up to 5.  This one I am dedicating to my new love
                                                                                                                                                                    for snails.  I have managed to acquire quite a collection including, Light
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4620 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: OT - HOPE YOU DON'T MIND
                                                                                                                                                                    Received this thru another aquarium site:


                                                                                                                                                                    URGENT REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE


                                                                                                                                                                    Dear Network Member,

                                                                                                                                                                    I would like to pass this on to you from All Creatures Great and Small.  
                                                                                                                                                                    Please use the contact information below for all questions
                                                                                                                                                                    and/or inquiries.

                                                                                                                                                                    All Creatures Great and Small (ACGS) in Hendersonville, NC, is losing the
                                                                                                                                                                    lease on their building at the end of October with no
                                                                                                                                                                    where to relocate.  The animals are at risk of being euthanized if we cannot
                                                                                                                                                                    find foster homes or other rescue organizations to
                                                                                                                                                                    accept and care for them until they are adopted.  This is an URGENT plea for
                                                                                                                                                                    assistance.

                                                                                                                                                                    ACGS is Western North Carolina's largest no-kill animal shelter and currently
                                                                                                                                                                    has over 500 dogs and cats.  If you or your
                                                                                                                                                                    organization can provide assistance, or if you have contacts who may have the
                                                                                                                                                                    capacity to help spread this message, please call
                                                                                                                                                                    Connie at (828) 681-1603. E-mail: jimbobmcnab@... or Robin at
                                                                                                                                                                    E-mail rrcorbin28739@...

                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you so much.


                                                                                                                                                                    Troy Lea
                                                                                                                                                                    Network Coordinator
                                                                                                                                                                    Best Friends Animal Society
                                                                                                                                                                    5001 Angel Canyon Road
                                                                                                                                                                    Kanab, Utah 84741
                                                                                                                                                                    435-644-2001 ext.123
                                                                                                                                                                    troy@...
                                                                                                                                                                    www.bestfriends.org
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4621 From: red-eye Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Terri,
                                                                                                                                                                    I bought some clown loaches to eradicate snails. I can't figure why anyone would breed them except as a food item for their reptile.
                                                                                                                                                                    I have to ask why do  you breed them...
                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                    red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                    At 06:13 AM 8/29/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    You can't predict when the apple snails will lay eggs after breeding, they storm sperm up to 6 months.  An adult female can lay a clutch a week (sometimes more) once she starts laying.  The snails need to be over an inch long to be fertile. Make sure there is at least 2 in of head space to encourage egg laying.  If you don't leave that space they will lay on the lid.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    Egg laying is stimulated by 30% water changes and warm temps. (78-80)
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    For the ph, if you have access to aragonite substrate it buffers to 8.0.  Small amounts of baking soda also increase ph.  In my opinion a mix of aragonite and crushed coral is the best snail substrate.  My snails have beautiful strong shells.  I can tell a difference in the shells from when I started using this substrate mix.  I have a combined 220 gallons of tanks just for snails :-)
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    You may want to look at www.applesnail.net for further information.
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant



                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    [] 

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                    Rainbow Snails.com<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

                                                                                                                                                                    Rainbow Snails - Aquabid

                                                                                                                                                                    Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 6:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; TropicalFishConnection@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; tropical-fish@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Snails & Breeding

                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all:

                                                                                                                                                                    As if 4 tanks were not enough, I recently decided to set up yet another tank
                                                                                                                                                                    (a 29 gallon).  Yes, I am up to 5.  This one I am dedicating to my new love
                                                                                                                                                                    for snails.  I have managed to acquire quite a collection including, Light



                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                    ADVERTISEMENT
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                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                    red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                    <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                    The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                    <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>

                                                                                                                                                                    Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                                                                                    The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                    If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                    http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                    <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                    Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                    For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                    ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                    The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                    Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                    Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                    ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4622 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    snails make great additions to an aquarium, provided you have the right
                                                                                                                                                                    ones. they're quite attractive and great little cleaners!
                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                    On Aug 29, 2004, at 12:15 PM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Terri,
                                                                                                                                                                    > I bought some clown loaches to eradicate snails. I can't figure why
                                                                                                                                                                    > anyone would breed them except as a food item for their reptile.
                                                                                                                                                                    > I have to ask why do  you breed them...
                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                    > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                    Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4623 From: bryants4god Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    There is more than one type of aquarium snail.  I remove ramshorns and pest snails from my tanks too.  Apple snails have personality, they play in bubbles and jump from plant to plant.  My daughters enjoy holding them and letting them crawl up their hands and on their arms.  They are also beautiful.  Purple, blue, ivory, gold -- they add so much color to your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    This one is holding an algae wafer.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    I inserted pictures, if you have that option disabled in your email here are the links.

                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: red-eye [mailto:r_ohle@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 11:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Snails & Breeding

                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Terri,
                                                                                                                                                                    I bought some clown loaches to eradicate snails. I can't figure why anyone would breed them except as a food item for their reptile.
                                                                                                                                                                    I have to ask why do  you breed them...
                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                    red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4624 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                        I agree..
                                                                                                                                                                    I got some out of my pond outdoors..
                                                                                                                                                                    & brought 7 of them inside to my aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                    they were just tiny little things..
                                                                                                                                                                    & I didn't want them to get eaten..
                                                                                                                                                                    I have koi & goldfish in the pond..
                                                                                                                                                                    Linda M.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    snails make great additions to an aquarium, provided you have the right
                                                                                                                                                                    ones. they're quite attractive and great little cleaners!
                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4625 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                    JoeP,

                                                                                                                                                                    I read that link to the Burgess book and he is talking about a
                                                                                                                                                                    _Hoplosternum_ sp. being observed "walking", not a _Corydoras_.

                                                                                                                                                                    Again, I post the reply I got from Lee Finley concerning this issue--

                                                                                                                                                                    ---------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Corys Walking


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve,

                                                                                                                                                                    Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                    (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).

                                                                                                                                                                    Lee
                                                                                                                                                                    -----------------------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, look, _Hoplosternum_ is mentioned in his reply.

                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FRESHWATERTROPICALFISHAQUARIUM@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                    My apologies! ( I either fear or detest typing very long web-addresses,
                                                                                                                                                                    and one of the results was in the last email I sent, which had two-errors. I
                                                                                                                                                                    sometimes send such emails to myself to try the addresses before I send
                                                                                                                                                                    them, but, anyway.......) Below the next two addresses is the correct link.
                                                                                                                                                                    The first page contains the cover of a book by Burgess, about Corydoras,
                                                                                                                                                                    etc.
                                                                                                                                                                    Clicking 'next', or 'next-page' from that page then the next, will take
                                                                                                                                                                    you to an introduction that claims Corydoras belong to a family that adapted
                                                                                                                                                                    to no/low O2, AND the ability to move to wetter pastures.
                                                                                                                                                                    JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                    To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?



                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                    To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?



                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                    This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to
                                                                                                                                                                    abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0793802121/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9985163-8011221
                                                                                                                                                                    #reader-page
                                                                                                                                                                    Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                    I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much
                                                                                                                                                                    further than 2 feet. If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they
                                                                                                                                                                    would get that far. Plus, why would they need that ability? Do they come
                                                                                                                                                                    from an area that dries up part of the year? If not, there would be no need
                                                                                                                                                                    to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a
                                                                                                                                                                    bigger fish they could walk back.

                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                    home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                    cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                    recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                    hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                    Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                    filter.
                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                    Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins (and
                                                                                                                                                                    related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they have
                                                                                                                                                                    the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".

                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//














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                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4626 From: Patrick Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                          Just wait.  In a few years snail keeping is going to be a big new hobby.  I am surprised at how quickly people are turning to "snail-only" tanks.  I can't say I understand it all, but some of these snails do look pretty.  People not only breed snails, they make money from them! :) 
                                                                                                                                                                          I have one yellow snail, it likes to eat plants, so it is in its own bowl.  It kept crawling out, so I had to put the cover on it.  I was afraid it would kill itself, and you know what they say. 
                                                                                                                                                                      "Curiosity salted the snail"-Spongebob
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Terri,
                                                                                                                                                                      I bought some clown loaches to eradicate snails. I can't figure why anyone would breed them except as a food item for their reptile.
                                                                                                                                                                      I have to ask why do  you breed them...
                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4627 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: terri, about those snails
                                                                                                                                                                      hey, terri, speaking of snails, i got an email from your friend but
                                                                                                                                                                      since it got here i lost a dear friend to cancer and subsequently lost
                                                                                                                                                                      a ton of email and other assorted info. could you resend her info?
                                                                                                                                                                      also, how does shipping work for your snails? is it per snail? or is
                                                                                                                                                                      there a certain number that you ship for a flat rate?
                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                      Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4628 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      He was writing about Callichthys (in which Corydoras' are a member), and
                                                                                                                                                                      noted to emphasize, the Hoplosternum observed traveling 90 meters.
                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > I read that link to the Burgess book and he is talking about a
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ sp. being observed "walking", not a _Corydoras_.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Again, I post the reply I got from Lee Finley concerning this issue--
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ---------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: Corys Walking
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                      > (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Lee
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Oh, look, _Hoplosternum_ is mentioned in his reply.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FRESHWATERTROPICALFISHAQUARIUM@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                      > My apologies! ( I either fear or detest typing very long web-addresses,
                                                                                                                                                                      > and one of the results was in the last email I sent, which had two-errors.
                                                                                                                                                                      I
                                                                                                                                                                      > sometimes send such emails to myself to try the addresses before I send
                                                                                                                                                                      > them, but, anyway.......) Below the next two addresses is the correct
                                                                                                                                                                      link.
                                                                                                                                                                      > The first page contains the cover of a book by Burgess, about Corydoras,
                                                                                                                                                                      > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                      > Clicking 'next', or 'next-page' from that page then the next, will take
                                                                                                                                                                      > you to an introduction that claims Corydoras belong to a family that
                                                                                                                                                                      adapted
                                                                                                                                                                      > to no/low O2, AND the ability to move to wetter pastures.
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                      > This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to
                                                                                                                                                                      > abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0793802121/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9985163-8011221
                                                                                                                                                                      > #reader-page
                                                                                                                                                                      > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much
                                                                                                                                                                      > further than 2 feet. If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they
                                                                                                                                                                      > would get that far. Plus, why would they need that ability? Do they come
                                                                                                                                                                      > from an area that dries up part of the year? If not, there would be no
                                                                                                                                                                      need
                                                                                                                                                                      > to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a
                                                                                                                                                                      > bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins
                                                                                                                                                                      (and
                                                                                                                                                                      > related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they
                                                                                                                                                                      have
                                                                                                                                                                      > the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4629 From: bryants4god Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: terri, about those snails
                                                                                                                                                                      Here's her email addy shadowofdeztiny@... her name is Sunny
                                                                                                                                                                      I ship flat rate, it's actual shipping costs plus packaging materials. http://www.rainbowsnails.com/shippingmethods.htm
                                                                                                                                                                      I can get about 12 snails in at the flat rate of $6.50.  The packaging is explained on that link above. 
                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] terri, about those snails

                                                                                                                                                                      hey, terri, speaking of snails, i got an email from your friend but
                                                                                                                                                                      since it got here i lost a dear friend to cancer and subsequently lost
                                                                                                                                                                      a ton of email and other assorted info. could you resend her info?
                                                                                                                                                                      also, how does shipping work for your snails? is it per snail? or is
                                                                                                                                                                      there a certain number that you ship for a flat rate?
                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                      Adornments....



                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4630 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP,

                                                                                                                                                                      If you read the text, he is speaking of the genus _Callichthys_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      _Hoplosternum_ and not the family, which is _Callichthyinae_ of which
                                                                                                                                                                      _Corydoras_ is indeed a member. Please read the text in the link you sent to
                                                                                                                                                                      the excerpt of the Burgess book, or the Burgess book itself (sorry, I do not
                                                                                                                                                                      own a copy). Since I do not have a copy handy, let me summarize the relevant
                                                                                                                                                                      portions of the page rather than giving actual excerpts. One can find the
                                                                                                                                                                      page by following this link: http://tinyurl.com/45ym4.

                                                                                                                                                                      The first paragraph summarizes the family _Callichthyinae_ and he says it is
                                                                                                                                                                      generally broken down into two subfamilies, _Callichthyinae_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      _Corydoradinae_. He then lists the genera in the first subfamily contain,
                                                                                                                                                                      among others, _Callichthys_ and _Hoplosternum_. In the next paragraph, he
                                                                                                                                                                      then talks about these two genera, and their capacity for using air to
                                                                                                                                                                      obtain oxygen which is gained in the "hind gut" of the fish. He then says
                                                                                                                                                                      that these two genera can, if the situation is dire enough, traverse a short
                                                                                                                                                                      land mass to get to another body of water. He then mentions an observed
                                                                                                                                                                      _Hoplosternum_ sp. that traversed 90 meters of land in 2 hours. Burgess then
                                                                                                                                                                      goes on to describe other behaviors of these two genera in general terms.

                                                                                                                                                                      Nowhere, other than at the beginning of the first paragraph on that page, is
                                                                                                                                                                      the cory mentioned. I really do not know how you can interpret that to mean
                                                                                                                                                                      that members of _Corydoras_ could traverse a land mass without human
                                                                                                                                                                      intervention.

                                                                                                                                                                      Is there anyone else who would dispute this interpretation?

                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?



                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      He was writing about Callichthys (in which Corydoras' are a member), and
                                                                                                                                                                      noted to emphasize, the Hoplosternum observed traveling 90 meters.
                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > I read that link to the Burgess book and he is talking about a
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ sp. being observed "walking", not a _Corydoras_.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Again, I post the reply I got from Lee Finley concerning this issue--
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ---------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: Corys Walking
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                      > (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Lee
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Oh, look, _Hoplosternum_ is mentioned in his reply.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FRESHWATERTROPICALFISHAQUARIUM@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                      > My apologies! ( I either fear or detest typing very long web-addresses,
                                                                                                                                                                      > and one of the results was in the last email I sent, which had two-errors.
                                                                                                                                                                      I
                                                                                                                                                                      > sometimes send such emails to myself to try the addresses before I send
                                                                                                                                                                      > them, but, anyway.......) Below the next two addresses is the correct
                                                                                                                                                                      link.
                                                                                                                                                                      > The first page contains the cover of a book by Burgess, about Corydoras,
                                                                                                                                                                      > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                      > Clicking 'next', or 'next-page' from that page then the next, will take
                                                                                                                                                                      > you to an introduction that claims Corydoras belong to a family that
                                                                                                                                                                      adapted
                                                                                                                                                                      > to no/low O2, AND the ability to move to wetter pastures.
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                      > This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to
                                                                                                                                                                      > abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0793802121/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9985163-8011221
                                                                                                                                                                      > #reader-page
                                                                                                                                                                      > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got much
                                                                                                                                                                      > further than 2 feet. If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they
                                                                                                                                                                      > would get that far. Plus, why would they need that ability? Do they come
                                                                                                                                                                      > from an area that dries up part of the year? If not, there would be no
                                                                                                                                                                      need
                                                                                                                                                                      > to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape a
                                                                                                                                                                      > bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins
                                                                                                                                                                      (and
                                                                                                                                                                      > related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they
                                                                                                                                                                      have
                                                                                                                                                                      > the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4631 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: terri, about those snails
                                                                                                                                                                      excellent, thanks! i'll probably be placing an order with you in the
                                                                                                                                                                      coming weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                      On Aug 29, 2004, at 4:01 PM, bryants4god wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                      > Here's her email addy shadowofdeztiny@... her name is Sunny
                                                                                                                                                                      > I ship flat rate, it's actual shipping costs plus packaging materials.
                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.rainbowsnails.com/shippingmethods.htm
                                                                                                                                                                      > I can get about 12 snails in at the flat rate of $6.50.  The packaging
                                                                                                                                                                      > is explained on that link above. 
                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                      > <image.tiff>
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] terri, about those snails
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > hey, terri, speaking of snails, i got an email from your friend but
                                                                                                                                                                      > since it got here i lost a dear friend to cancer and subsequently lost
                                                                                                                                                                      > a ton of email and other assorted info. could you resend her info?
                                                                                                                                                                      > also, how does shipping work for your snails? is it per snail? or is
                                                                                                                                                                      > there a certain number that you ship for a flat rate?
                                                                                                                                                                      > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                      > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4632 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 368
                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/29/2004 9:17:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                                                                                                                                                      have acquired a 50 gallon tank, set it up with plants and rocks, and
                                                                                                                                                                      now I am ready to start thinking about what kinds of fish to put in
                                                                                                                                                                      this beautiful tank that resides in my living room. The goal is to
                                                                                                                                                                      have an environment indoors that can help lower my blood pressure and
                                                                                                                                                                      continue to be a positive experience for the whole family, including
                                                                                                                                                                      our 5 year old son.


                                                                                                                                                                      As well as the fish mentioned by Sunny, you could also look into the various types of Mollies. Mollies and Platies are both livebearer species, and once they are comfortable, they will reproduce. Often, and in large numbers. LOL So before investing in those fish, be sure to have a place where it is established that you can take your fry, or else you'll quickly run out of room!

                                                                                                                                                                      Mollies enjoy hard water, and I think platies do as well. My local water supply is hard, and my mollies and platies are very happy in my 15 gallon tank. (Although, my tank used to be mostly mollies, and now is mostly platies)

                                                                                                                                                                      Mollies and Platies come in some very nice looking and interesting types! I have a "Fancy Mollie" and a "Black Balloon Belly Mollie", three "Red Wag Platies" and two "Mickey Mouse Platies". (The youngest of my fish, just born about a month or so ago, has started to develop the Mickey Mouse markings, so I've finally been able to identify it.)

                                                                                                                                                                      Your best bet is to test your local water supply, and get fish that enjoy those conditions. (Hardness, pH, etc.) Its a lot easier that way than trying to constantly adjust your water supply to keep your fish happy, and you will have more stable tank conditions.

                                                                                                                                                                      With the size aquarium you've gotten, you have a lot more room to "play" with. :)

                                                                                                                                                                      Good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                                                                                      CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                                                      ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                                                                      my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4633 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      I agree with you re: the analysis in your last letter. (I've been
                                                                                                                                                                      gloss-reading for decades, and the title of the book "CORYDORAS" did nothing
                                                                                                                                                                      to make me think I should do otherwise, though I should strive otherwise.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Well how about the link I sent indicating an Aspidora climbed a net, and
                                                                                                                                                                      last I read, the Aspidora was a member of the Cory family. ( I still believe
                                                                                                                                                                      I read that Corys can move over land to some extent.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > If you read the text, he is speaking of the genus _Callichthys_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ and not the family, which is _Callichthyinae_ of which
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Corydoras_ is indeed a member. Please read the text in the link you sent
                                                                                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                                                                                      > the excerpt of the Burgess book, or the Burgess book itself (sorry, I do
                                                                                                                                                                      not
                                                                                                                                                                      > own a copy). Since I do not have a copy handy, let me summarize the
                                                                                                                                                                      relevant
                                                                                                                                                                      > portions of the page rather than giving actual excerpts. One can find the
                                                                                                                                                                      > page by following this link: http://tinyurl.com/45ym4.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > The first paragraph summarizes the family _Callichthyinae_ and he says it
                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                      > generally broken down into two subfamilies, _Callichthyinae_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Corydoradinae_. He then lists the genera in the first subfamily contain,
                                                                                                                                                                      > among others, _Callichthys_ and _Hoplosternum_. In the next paragraph, he
                                                                                                                                                                      > then talks about these two genera, and their capacity for using air to
                                                                                                                                                                      > obtain oxygen which is gained in the "hind gut" of the fish. He then says
                                                                                                                                                                      > that these two genera can, if the situation is dire enough, traverse a
                                                                                                                                                                      short
                                                                                                                                                                      > land mass to get to another body of water. He then mentions an observed
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ sp. that traversed 90 meters of land in 2 hours. Burgess
                                                                                                                                                                      then
                                                                                                                                                                      > goes on to describe other behaviors of these two genera in general terms.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Nowhere, other than at the beginning of the first paragraph on that page,
                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                      > the cory mentioned. I really do not know how you can interpret that to
                                                                                                                                                                      mean
                                                                                                                                                                      > that members of _Corydoras_ could traverse a land mass without human
                                                                                                                                                                      > intervention.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Is there anyone else who would dispute this interpretation?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      > He was writing about Callichthys (in which Corydoras' are a member),
                                                                                                                                                                      and
                                                                                                                                                                      > noted to emphasize, the Hoplosternum observed traveling 90 meters.
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > I read that link to the Burgess book and he is talking about a
                                                                                                                                                                      > > _Hoplosternum_ sp. being observed "walking", not a _Corydoras_.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Again, I post the reply I got from Lee Finley concerning this issue--
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ---------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: Corys Walking
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other
                                                                                                                                                                      callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                      > > (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Lee
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -----------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Oh, look, _Hoplosternum_ is mentioned in his reply.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FRESHWATERTROPICALFISHAQUARIUM@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > My apologies! ( I either fear or detest typing very long
                                                                                                                                                                      web-addresses,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > and one of the results was in the last email I sent, which had
                                                                                                                                                                      two-errors.
                                                                                                                                                                      > I
                                                                                                                                                                      > > sometimes send such emails to myself to try the addresses before I send
                                                                                                                                                                      > > them, but, anyway.......) Below the next two addresses is the correct
                                                                                                                                                                      > link.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > The first page contains the cover of a book by Burgess, about Corydoras,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Clicking 'next', or 'next-page' from that page then the next, will
                                                                                                                                                                      take
                                                                                                                                                                      > > you to an introduction that claims Corydoras belong to a family that
                                                                                                                                                                      > adapted
                                                                                                                                                                      > > to no/low O2, AND the ability to move to wetter pastures.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to
                                                                                                                                                                      > > abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0793802121/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9985163-8011221
                                                                                                                                                                      > > #reader-page
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got
                                                                                                                                                                      much
                                                                                                                                                                      > > further than 2 feet. If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they
                                                                                                                                                                      > > would get that far. Plus, why would they need that ability? Do they
                                                                                                                                                                      come
                                                                                                                                                                      > > from an area that dries up part of the year? If not, there would be no
                                                                                                                                                                      > need
                                                                                                                                                                      > > to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape
                                                                                                                                                                      a
                                                                                                                                                                      > > bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                      > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                      > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                      > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                      > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                      > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                      ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                      > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins
                                                                                                                                                                      > (and
                                                                                                                                                                      > > related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they
                                                                                                                                                                      > have
                                                                                                                                                                      > > the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4634 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: travelling with snails
                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to everyone who replied to my original email. Happy to say I had no problems transporting the snails or the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                      I received some of those in the mail the other day.  They were just bagged in some water. Took 2 days to get here and every one was alive.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      This weekend I'll be making an 8-9 hour drive and would like to take along some Malaysian Trumpet Snails for a friend. What would be the best way to pack them for the trip?
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4635 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP,

                                                                                                                                                                      About the _Aspidoras_, specifically the _Aspidoras maculosus_, the reference
                                                                                                                                                                      you give seems to be the only one I can find about a close relative of the
                                                                                                                                                                      _Corydoras_ having a propensity to "walk". I'll admit, though, it was only a
                                                                                                                                                                      cursory search, and not an in depth search, but I have to run out now, and
                                                                                                                                                                      probably will not get a chance to do much about it today. However, if it was
                                                                                                                                                                      known that _Aspidoras_ could walk, I would suspect that Lee would have
                                                                                                                                                                      listed them also in his reply to me.

                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                      P.S. Please not that I have cut down on the number of messages attached to
                                                                                                                                                                      this reply for the sake of those with a slow connection and those who
                                                                                                                                                                      receive this list in digest mode. The former needs not wait long for the
                                                                                                                                                                      download, and the latter does not need to wade through a lot of replies to
                                                                                                                                                                      get to the end of the message.

                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 6:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      I agree with you re: the analysis in your last letter. (I've been
                                                                                                                                                                      gloss-reading for decades, and the title of the book "CORYDORAS" did nothing
                                                                                                                                                                      to make me think I should do otherwise, though I should strive otherwise.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Well how about the link I sent indicating an Aspidora climbed a net, and
                                                                                                                                                                      last I read, the Aspidora was a member of the Cory family. ( I still believe
                                                                                                                                                                      I read that Corys can move over land to some extent.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > If you read the text, he is speaking of the genus _Callichthys_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ and not the family, which is _Callichthyinae_ of which
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Corydoras_ is indeed a member. Please read the text in the link you sent
                                                                                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                                                                                      > the excerpt of the Burgess book, or the Burgess book itself (sorry, I do
                                                                                                                                                                      not
                                                                                                                                                                      > own a copy). Since I do not have a copy handy, let me summarize the
                                                                                                                                                                      relevant
                                                                                                                                                                      > portions of the page rather than giving actual excerpts. One can find the
                                                                                                                                                                      > page by following this link: http://tinyurl.com/45ym4.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > The first paragraph summarizes the family _Callichthyinae_ and he says it
                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                      > generally broken down into two subfamilies, _Callichthyinae_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Corydoradinae_. He then lists the genera in the first subfamily contain,
                                                                                                                                                                      > among others, _Callichthys_ and _Hoplosternum_. In the next paragraph, he
                                                                                                                                                                      > then talks about these two genera, and their capacity for using air to
                                                                                                                                                                      > obtain oxygen which is gained in the "hind gut" of the fish. He then says
                                                                                                                                                                      > that these two genera can, if the situation is dire enough, traverse a
                                                                                                                                                                      short
                                                                                                                                                                      > land mass to get to another body of water. He then mentions an observed
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ sp. that traversed 90 meters of land in 2 hours. Burgess
                                                                                                                                                                      then
                                                                                                                                                                      > goes on to describe other behaviors of these two genera in general terms.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Nowhere, other than at the beginning of the first paragraph on that page,
                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                      > the cory mentioned. I really do not know how you can interpret that to
                                                                                                                                                                      mean
                                                                                                                                                                      > that members of _Corydoras_ could traverse a land mass without human
                                                                                                                                                                      > intervention.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Is there anyone else who would dispute this interpretation?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      > He was writing about Callichthys (in which Corydoras' are a member),
                                                                                                                                                                      and
                                                                                                                                                                      > noted to emphasize, the Hoplosternum observed traveling 90 meters.
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > I read that link to the Burgess book and he is talking about a
                                                                                                                                                                      > > _Hoplosternum_ sp. being observed "walking", not a _Corydoras_.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Again, I post the reply I got from Lee Finley concerning this issue--
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ---------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: Corys Walking
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other
                                                                                                                                                                      callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                      > > (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Lee
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -----------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Oh, look, _Hoplosternum_ is mentioned in his reply.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4636 From: Steve Szabo Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP,

                                                                                                                                                                      OK, I just gat a reply from the other fellow I wrote, hoping to put an end
                                                                                                                                                                      to this, and his reply speaks for itself.

                                                                                                                                                                      From: Shane Linder [e-mail address removed]
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                      Cc: shane@...; Lee Finley
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Corys Walking


                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      They can certainly "crawl" a short distance and can survive a long time
                                                                                                                                                                      out of water. Never seen them migrate though as evidenced by walking
                                                                                                                                                                      across their crunchy corpses during the dry season when it was only a
                                                                                                                                                                      dozen feet to a nearby pool that did not dry up.
                                                                                                                                                                      -Shane

                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 6:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      I agree with you re: the analysis in your last letter. (I've been
                                                                                                                                                                      gloss-reading for decades, and the title of the book "CORYDORAS" did nothing
                                                                                                                                                                      to make me think I should do otherwise, though I should strive otherwise.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Well how about the link I sent indicating an Aspidora climbed a net, and
                                                                                                                                                                      last I read, the Aspidora was a member of the Cory family. ( I still believe
                                                                                                                                                                      I read that Corys can move over land to some extent.)
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?


                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > If you read the text, he is speaking of the genus _Callichthys_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ and not the family, which is _Callichthyinae_ of which
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Corydoras_ is indeed a member. Please read the text in the link you sent
                                                                                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                                                                                      > the excerpt of the Burgess book, or the Burgess book itself (sorry, I do
                                                                                                                                                                      not
                                                                                                                                                                      > own a copy). Since I do not have a copy handy, let me summarize the
                                                                                                                                                                      relevant
                                                                                                                                                                      > portions of the page rather than giving actual excerpts. One can find the
                                                                                                                                                                      > page by following this link: http://tinyurl.com/45ym4.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > The first paragraph summarizes the family _Callichthyinae_ and he says it
                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                      > generally broken down into two subfamilies, _Callichthyinae_ and
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Corydoradinae_. He then lists the genera in the first subfamily contain,
                                                                                                                                                                      > among others, _Callichthys_ and _Hoplosternum_. In the next paragraph, he
                                                                                                                                                                      > then talks about these two genera, and their capacity for using air to
                                                                                                                                                                      > obtain oxygen which is gained in the "hind gut" of the fish. He then says
                                                                                                                                                                      > that these two genera can, if the situation is dire enough, traverse a
                                                                                                                                                                      short
                                                                                                                                                                      > land mass to get to another body of water. He then mentions an observed
                                                                                                                                                                      > _Hoplosternum_ sp. that traversed 90 meters of land in 2 hours. Burgess
                                                                                                                                                                      then
                                                                                                                                                                      > goes on to describe other behaviors of these two genera in general terms.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Nowhere, other than at the beginning of the first paragraph on that page,
                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                      > the cory mentioned. I really do not know how you can interpret that to
                                                                                                                                                                      mean
                                                                                                                                                                      > that members of _Corydoras_ could traverse a land mass without human
                                                                                                                                                                      > intervention.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Is there anyone else who would dispute this interpretation?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      > He was writing about Callichthys (in which Corydoras' are a member),
                                                                                                                                                                      and
                                                                                                                                                                      > noted to emphasize, the Hoplosternum observed traveling 90 meters.
                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > I read that link to the Burgess book and he is talking about a
                                                                                                                                                                      > > _Hoplosternum_ sp. being observed "walking", not a _Corydoras_.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Again, I post the reply I got from Lee Finley concerning this issue--
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ---------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: Lee Finley [e-mail address deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: Steve Szabo
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: Corys Walking
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Not that I have heard of. It has been demonstrated in other
                                                                                                                                                                      callichthyids
                                                                                                                                                                      > > (Hoplosternum and Callichthys).
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Lee
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -----------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Oh, look, _Hoplosternum_ is mentioned in his reply.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FRESHWATERTROPICALFISHAQUARIUM@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Fw: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > My apologies! ( I either fear or detest typing very long
                                                                                                                                                                      web-addresses,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > and one of the results was in the last email I sent, which had
                                                                                                                                                                      two-errors.
                                                                                                                                                                      > I
                                                                                                                                                                      > > sometimes send such emails to myself to try the addresses before I send
                                                                                                                                                                      > > them, but, anyway.......) Below the next two addresses is the correct
                                                                                                                                                                      > link.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > The first page contains the cover of a book by Burgess, about Corydoras,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Clicking 'next', or 'next-page' from that page then the next, will
                                                                                                                                                                      take
                                                                                                                                                                      > > you to an introduction that claims Corydoras belong to a family that
                                                                                                                                                                      > adapted
                                                                                                                                                                      > > to no/low O2, AND the ability to move to wetter pastures.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:21 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > This link should take you to a page in a book for sale, that refers to
                                                                                                                                                                      > > abilities the family to which Corydoras belong.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0793802121/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9985163-8011221
                                                                                                                                                                      > > #reader-page
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: can a cory walk?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > I figure as small as they are they would dry out before they got
                                                                                                                                                                      much
                                                                                                                                                                      > > further than 2 feet. If the sun is shining right on them, I doubt they
                                                                                                                                                                      > > would get that far. Plus, why would they need that ability? Do they
                                                                                                                                                                      come
                                                                                                                                                                      > > from an area that dries up part of the year? If not, there would be no
                                                                                                                                                                      > need
                                                                                                                                                                      > > to have the ability anyway except if they had to jump on land to escape
                                                                                                                                                                      a
                                                                                                                                                                      > > bigger fish they could walk back.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                      > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                      > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                      > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                      > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                      > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                      ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                      > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Please note that I did not say anything about the strength of the fins
                                                                                                                                                                      > (and
                                                                                                                                                                      > > related musculature) in the corys, just that they do not look like they
                                                                                                                                                                      > have
                                                                                                                                                                      > > the mobility of the fins to accomplish the task of "walking".
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4637 From: paul helms Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: panda goign strong very confused
                                                                                                                                                                      i really do think that they could make it a bit
                                                                                                                                                                      further, maybe 10-12 feet, but i have carpeted floors,
                                                                                                                                                                      and the barbs on the pecs sick in the carpet,
                                                                                                                                                                      exhausting the fish. i don't believe they could make
                                                                                                                                                                      it much farther than that without a lot of muscle
                                                                                                                                                                      behind the pecs, as they use their rear fins to swim,
                                                                                                                                                                      and not the pectorals.
                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                      --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > OK, some anecdotal evidence in JoeP's favor.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 12:29 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] panda
                                                                                                                                                                      > goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                                      > confused
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > they can walk short distances on their pectoral
                                                                                                                                                                      > fins.
                                                                                                                                                                      > i have only seen them make it about a foot or so
                                                                                                                                                                      > when
                                                                                                                                                                      > they have jumped out of the tank..
                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                      > --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Never heard or read that corys can walk across
                                                                                                                                                                      > land
                                                                                                                                                                      > > before. It does not seem
                                                                                                                                                                      > > possible given the location and mobility of their
                                                                                                                                                                      > > pectoral fins, which would
                                                                                                                                                                      > > be the most likely fins to be used for locomotion
                                                                                                                                                                      > > across land, nor do they
                                                                                                                                                                      > > seem to have the body flexibility to propel
                                                                                                                                                                      > > themselves out of water across
                                                                                                                                                                      > > land. Where did you pick up this information?
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > It is true that they will swim to the surface of
                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                      > > water to gulp air
                                                                                                                                                                      > > periodically. That is one of their endearing
                                                                                                                                                                      > traits.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: j.pascavage@...
                                                                                                                                                                      > > [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                      > panda
                                                                                                                                                                      > > goign strong very
                                                                                                                                                                      > > confused
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Did you know that (all or some?) Corydoras can
                                                                                                                                                                      > > use their fins to walk
                                                                                                                                                                      > > short distances over dry land, and they gulp air
                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                      > > store somewhere to
                                                                                                                                                                      > > augment what they metabolize through their gills?
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > he is still alive i posted this am that he was
                                                                                                                                                                      > still
                                                                                                                                                                      > > alive.. :but just now
                                                                                                                                                                      > > he did that faring his body all over the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                      > > then drops to the ground
                                                                                                                                                                      > > on his back and then lays there and like minutes
                                                                                                                                                                      > > later is all normal... so
                                                                                                                                                                      > > odd.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Was the Panda OK before or after changing water or
                                                                                                                                                                      > > cleaning? I remember you
                                                                                                                                                                      > > never did answer my question as to whether the
                                                                                                                                                                      > fish
                                                                                                                                                                      > > was alive or dead? Since
                                                                                                                                                                      > > they're bottom dwellers, I'm thinking dissolving
                                                                                                                                                                      > > waste could have caused
                                                                                                                                                                      > > problems, and he could have recovered naturally to
                                                                                                                                                                      > > the degree possible. I
                                                                                                                                                                      > > had a large goldfish that went belly-up
                                                                                                                                                                      > > periodically. It was because I
                                                                                                                                                                      > > introduced damage by adding too much salt to the
                                                                                                                                                                      > > tank when treating for
                                                                                                                                                                      > > parasites, Did that years ago when I first
                                                                                                                                                                      > started.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > The other three or four
                                                                                                                                                                      > > goldfish died of shock. The surviving fish lived
                                                                                                                                                                      > for
                                                                                                                                                                      > > years. That type of
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Goldfish is considered a handicapped fish though,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > because of the breeding to
                                                                                                                                                                      > > greatly shorten and enhance finneage.If I remember
                                                                                                                                                                      > > correctly, swim-bladder
                                                                                                                                                                      > > probs are one of the results of breeding to
                                                                                                                                                                      > cripple
                                                                                                                                                                      > > so the fish looks pretty
                                                                                                                                                                      > > to the breeder.
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4638 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail
                                                                                                                                                                      Hi all, today my brother picked up two gold gouramis from petco to
                                                                                                                                                                      add to his tank. In the tank there was already 3 black high fin
                                                                                                                                                                      tetras and a black mystery snail, the tetras and the gouramis are
                                                                                                                                                                      getting along well enough, but the gouramis seem to enjoy picking at
                                                                                                                                                                      the snail. We are all quite attached to this snail and believe it or
                                                                                                                                                                      not we would rather get rid of the gouramis than let the snail
                                                                                                                                                                      suffer. One thing, is that they hadn't been fed since being added,
                                                                                                                                                                      and they seemed to be more interested in the food, so perhaps as
                                                                                                                                                                      long as we keep them well fed they won't bug the snail. If any of
                                                                                                                                                                      you happen to know of this is common, or if it just so happens that
                                                                                                                                                                      our gouramis like to pick on snails please let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                      Jay
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4639 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                      Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                      to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                      added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                      years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                      add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                      little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                      this be alright?

                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                      Jay
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4640 From: harry perry Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe/Jay
                                                                                                                                                                      I use boiling salted water for rocks etc. Don't boil the rocks they can explode.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Harry

                                                                                                                                                                      japanesegorilla05 <japanesegorilla05@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                      Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                      to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                      added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                      years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                      add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                      little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                      this be alright?

                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                      Jay



                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4641 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                      Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                      large number of other types of fish. Since you're trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                      this might be a fish to avoid.

                                                                                                                                                                      Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                      either go with a smaller loach or just cories.




                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                      > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys, betta,
                                                                                                                                                                      > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                      > other.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > You can study on the web in detail and then decide on
                                                                                                                                                                      > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4642 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: big problem
                                                                                                                                                                      im cycling a tank right now for about 3.5 weeks. i have 2 black
                                                                                                                                                                      mollies, a green puffer, a needle nose gar, 1 green scat and 2 monos
                                                                                                                                                                      in a 30 gallon brackish tank with an eclipse filter. my nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                      always hitting 2.0 ppm or higher. i tried that bacteria zyme in the
                                                                                                                                                                      beginning but it didnt really do anything. now im using stress zyme
                                                                                                                                                                      (bacteria agent) and amquel plus (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate reducer).
                                                                                                                                                                      i feed the fish once every other day to reduce fish waste. i add
                                                                                                                                                                      amquel plus everyday and do water changes when i think its
                                                                                                                                                                      appropriate. i did a 50% water change 2 days ago and reduced the
                                                                                                                                                                      nitrites to .25 ppm. now its at 3.0 ppm with the use of amquel the
                                                                                                                                                                      past 2 days. on top of all that i had a recent ick outbreak so im
                                                                                                                                                                      treating the tank with mardel maracide (note: product states that it
                                                                                                                                                                      doesnt harm the "good" bacteria and theres no need to do water
                                                                                                                                                                      changes or take out the filter). so those are my problems. should i
                                                                                                                                                                      just keep doing water changes? if so how often and how much. any
                                                                                                                                                                      advice will help. thanks
                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4643 From: Tim Walker Date: 8/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                      I would be more worried about the shells in your tank raising the
                                                                                                                                                                      hardness of the water too high.
                                                                                                                                                                      I believe I've read in previous discussion the best way is to lacquer
                                                                                                                                                                      the objects with a non toxic water
                                                                                                                                                                      impermeable lacquer. Otherwise you will get chemicals leeching into the
                                                                                                                                                                      water over time. Maybe not enough to kill the fish that are in there,
                                                                                                                                                                      but enough to kill any new additions to the tank from shock at a later
                                                                                                                                                                      date.

                                                                                                                                                                      Tim


                                                                                                                                                                      On 30/08/2004, at 3:04 PM, japanesegorilla05 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                      > to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                      > added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                      > years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                      > add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                      > little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                      > this be alright?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                      > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4644 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                      Have to disagree there, I have always had a red-tailed shark or red-finned shark and never had a problem with them. We have a red-finned at the moment in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios, clowns, platies and babies some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                      large number of other types of fish. Since you're trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                      this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                      either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                      > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys, betta,
                                                                                                                                                                      > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                      > other.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > You can study on the web in detail and then decide on
                                                                                                                                                                      > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4645 From: sunil kamath Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                      same with me.

                                                                                                                                                                      I have a red tailed shark in my 55gal planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                      with platys, danios, tetras, clownloaches, angels,
                                                                                                                                                                      kribs, rasboras and its never bothered or caused
                                                                                                                                                                      trouble to any of its tankmates...

                                                                                                                                                                      Clowns are fun to watch and of course they grow upto
                                                                                                                                                                      10" but not in a 55 gal and if in a 55 gal alsoits not
                                                                                                                                                                      overnight right..

                                                                                                                                                                      I have mine with me for more than 2 years and its
                                                                                                                                                                      about 3.5 - 4".

                                                                                                                                                                      ..........SuNnY !


                                                                                                                                                                      --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                      > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                      > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                      > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                      > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                      > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                      > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                      > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                      > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                      > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                      > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                      > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                      > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                      > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                      > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                      > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                      > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                      > on
                                                                                                                                                                      > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4646 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                      We have had our shark for a year in November and he is about the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Well ia can't be the only one then that have  owned  "nice" sharks.....lol
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 08/30/04 13:28:09
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      same with me.
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      I have a red tailed shark in my 55gal planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                      with platys, danios, tetras, clownloaches, angels,
                                                                                                                                                                      kribs, rasboras and its never bothered or caused
                                                                                                                                                                      trouble to any of its tankmates...
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      Clowns are fun to watch and of course they grow upto
                                                                                                                                                                      10" but not in a 55 gal and if in a 55 gal alsoits not
                                                                                                                                                                      overnight right..
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      I have mine with me for more than 2 years and its
                                                                                                                                                                      about 3.5 - 4".
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      ...........SuNnY !
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                      > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                      > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                      > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                      > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                      > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                      > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                      > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                      > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                      > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                      > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                      > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                      > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                      > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                      > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                      > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                      > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                      > on
                                                                                                                                                                      > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4647 From: Patrick Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank? - RTS
                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                            My rainbow shark was fine with my tetras but shred the fins of my betta. 
                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4648 From: Patrick Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: big problem
                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                              If I was treating my freshwater tank for this, here is what I would do:  Sometimes I wonder if these products want to kill fish.  Dow water changes, big ones.  50% every day or even twice a day if you have to.  How big is the tank?  Don't change or remove anything to do with the filter, but do water changes to get those nitrites down.  Don't treat ich with meds, it only encourages the little bugs.  Turn the heat up to 83°.  Ich meds treat symptoms (the ich) but don't cure the problem (high nitrites).  To cure the problem, heat will hurt the ich while water changes will lower the nitrites, relieving the stress on the fish and ending the ich problem.
                                                                                                                                                                              By they way, these suggestions are all for freshwater, but since brackish is halfway to marine with all those additives that have to be put in, I don't know if they are really correct for your case.
                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, too many to count, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus
                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                          im cycling a tank right now for about 3.5 weeks. i have 2 black
                                                                                                                                                                          mollies, a green puffer, a needle nose gar, 1 green scat and 2 monos
                                                                                                                                                                          in a 30 gallon brackish tank with an eclipse filter. my nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                          always hitting 2.0 ppm or higher. i tried that bacteria zyme in the
                                                                                                                                                                          beginning but it didnt really do anything. now im using stress zyme
                                                                                                                                                                          (bacteria agent) and amquel plus (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate reducer).
                                                                                                                                                                          i feed the fish once every other day to reduce fish waste. i add
                                                                                                                                                                          amquel plus everyday and do water changes when i think its
                                                                                                                                                                          appropriate. i did a 50% water change 2 days ago and reduced the
                                                                                                                                                                          nitrites to .25 ppm. now its at 3.0 ppm with the use of amquel the
                                                                                                                                                                          past 2 days. on top of all that i had a recent ick outbreak so im
                                                                                                                                                                          treating the tank with mardel maracide (note: product states that it
                                                                                                                                                                          doesnt harm the "good" bacteria and theres no need to do water
                                                                                                                                                                          changes or take out the filter). so those are my problems. should i
                                                                                                                                                                          just keep doing water changes? if so how often and how much. any
                                                                                                                                                                          advice will help. thanks
                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4649 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                          some ppl really like them... until i looked at terri's page i thought snails were pointless but hers are so pretty i have heard of many ppl just having snail tanks... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4650 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Digest Number 368
                                                                                                                                                                          Aw the allure of the aquaria, studies have shown positive physiological and physiological changes between groups who had a fish tank to watch against the group that didn't . It was a legitimate study (not a million dollar gov grant to see if throwing a potato at someone you don't know will make them mad.)
                                                                                                                                                                          Some of the positive results in your case was a drop in blood pressure, researchers didn't know if it was the fish, the flowing water or the lights on the water, I think we know what it is don't we :)
                                                                                                                                                                          So, what kind of fish,

                                                                                                                                                                          Two considerations must be decided upon,
                                                                                                                                                                          Community tank OR aggressive or more specific feeders or habitats type fish.

                                                                                                                                                                          If this is your first tank it's ALWAYS better to go with Community, and my reasons are sound. You can get away with more docile fish, cheaper fish, and usually more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                          Tetra's like those beautiful neon's and cardinals (neon's brothers who decided to wear some extra red to the ball) and black , congo, and about a dozen other species carrying the tetra family flag, they are easy going, don't fight, sometimes produce young. Along with the tetras is another family of fish you might find both beautiful and easy to keep, Gouramis and paradise fish, these guys come with a built in back up system, if your air pump should fail all the other fish might be doing the upside-down dance but they have a labyrinth organ that allows them to breath regular air from the surface for as long as they need to , in fact I have a pond that has no pump or filter and is a complete biosphere in it's self..

                                                                                                                                                                          OK away from my pond before I ramble on ,

                                                                                                                                                                          Other nice fish for community tanks are Platy's, mollies and swordtails, sometimes they might get a bit "pushy" or fin nip but the majority of the list here will agree that for the most part they are docile and they are colorful plus in but a few months the numbers will grow by themselves, they are live bearers and good at it.
                                                                                                                                                                          But may I suggest that you get a book and do some "page shopping" and find what you like, just remember some fish are a bit mean in their behavior like chiclids all of them, they are a type fish that you wouldn't be able to have but a few, and they are quarrelsome, but they are beautiful. But in a community tank they will eat all their tank mates that aren't their kind and aren't bigger than they.

                                                                                                                                                                          Well I hope some of this help, ask anytime and of course where are my manners, WElcome to the list,

                                                                                                                                                                          Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                          PS, Like your Cybername, cool

                                                                                                                                                                          Witchywmn42@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 8/29/2004 9:17:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                                                                                                                                                          have acquired a 50 gallon tank, set it up with plants and rocks, and
                                                                                                                                                                          now I am ready to start thinking about what kinds of fish to put in
                                                                                                                                                                          this beautiful tank that resides in my living room. The goal is to
                                                                                                                                                                          have an environment indoors that can help lower my blood pressure and
                                                                                                                                                                          continue to be a positive experience for the whole family, including
                                                                                                                                                                          our 5 year old son.


                                                                                                                                                                          As well as the fish mentioned by Sunny, you could also look into the various types of Mollies. Mollies and Platies are both livebearer species, and once they are comfortable, they will reproduce. Often, and in large numbers. LOL So before investing in those fish, be sure to have a place where it is established that you can take your fry, or else you'll quickly run out of room!

                                                                                                                                                                          Mollies enjoy hard water, and I think platies do as well. My local water supply is hard, and my mollies and platies are very happy in my 15 gallon tank. (Although, my tank used to be mostly mollies, and now is mostly platies)

                                                                                                                                                                          Mollies and Platies come in some very nice looking and interesting types! I have a "Fancy Mollie" and a "Black Balloon Belly Mollie", three "Red Wag Platies" and two "Mickey Mouse Platies". (The youngest of my fish, just born about a month or so ago, has started to develop the Mickey Mouse markings, so I've finally been able to identify it.)

                                                                                                                                                                          Your best bet is to test your local water supply, and get fish that enjoy those conditions. (Hardness, pH, etc.) Its a lot easier that way than trying to constantly adjust your water supply to keep your fish happy, and you will have more stable tank conditions.

                                                                                                                                                                          With the size aquarium you've gotten, you have a lot more room to "play" with. :)

                                                                                                                                                                          Good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                                                          CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                                                          ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

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                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4651 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                          you seem to havea semi agressive tank, which a red
                                                                                                                                                                          tail shark would fit into just fine. the barbs and
                                                                                                                                                                          danios are both semi agressive, and the other have
                                                                                                                                                                          most likely just adapted. i would not recomend them
                                                                                                                                                                          for a straight community tank.

                                                                                                                                                                          --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                          > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                          > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                          > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                          > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                          > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                          > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                          > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                          > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                          > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                          > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                          > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                          > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                          > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                          > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                          > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                          > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                          > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                          > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                          > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                          > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                          > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                          > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                          > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                          > on
                                                                                                                                                                          > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4652 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: big problem
                                                                                                                                                                          you are right at the end of the cycle, where the
                                                                                                                                                                          nitrites should be high. a tank shoudl not be stocked
                                                                                                                                                                          with teh fish that you want to keep at tis point, and
                                                                                                                                                                          every time that you do large water changes, you are
                                                                                                                                                                          wiping ouut a lot of your bacteria. in addition,
                                                                                                                                                                          amquel plus will destroy your tanks buffering capacity
                                                                                                                                                                          when over used, which using daily would be over use.
                                                                                                                                                                          you may want to switch to plain amquel for a tank
                                                                                                                                                                          additive and use the plus only to new water. i would
                                                                                                                                                                          recomend smaller frequent water changes, 10 % per
                                                                                                                                                                          week, in addition to an every other day dose of stress
                                                                                                                                                                          zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                          --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                          wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                          > im cycling a tank right now for about 3.5 weeks. i
                                                                                                                                                                          > have 2 black
                                                                                                                                                                          > mollies, a green puffer, a needle nose gar, 1 green
                                                                                                                                                                          > scat and 2 monos
                                                                                                                                                                          > in a 30 gallon brackish tank with an eclipse filter.
                                                                                                                                                                          > my nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                          > always hitting 2.0 ppm or higher. i tried that
                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria zyme in the
                                                                                                                                                                          > beginning but it didnt really do anything. now im
                                                                                                                                                                          > using stress zyme
                                                                                                                                                                          > (bacteria agent) and amquel plus
                                                                                                                                                                          > (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate reducer).
                                                                                                                                                                          > i feed the fish once every other day to reduce fish
                                                                                                                                                                          > waste. i add
                                                                                                                                                                          > amquel plus everyday and do water changes when i
                                                                                                                                                                          > think its
                                                                                                                                                                          > appropriate. i did a 50% water change 2 days ago and
                                                                                                                                                                          > reduced the
                                                                                                                                                                          > nitrites to .25 ppm. now its at 3.0 ppm with the use
                                                                                                                                                                          > of amquel the
                                                                                                                                                                          > past 2 days. on top of all that i had a recent ick
                                                                                                                                                                          > outbreak so im
                                                                                                                                                                          > treating the tank with mardel maracide (note:
                                                                                                                                                                          > product states that it
                                                                                                                                                                          > doesnt harm the "good" bacteria and theres no need
                                                                                                                                                                          > to do water
                                                                                                                                                                          > changes or take out the filter). so those are my
                                                                                                                                                                          > problems. should i
                                                                                                                                                                          > just keep doing water changes? if so how often and
                                                                                                                                                                          > how much. any
                                                                                                                                                                          > advice will help. thanks
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4653 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail
                                                                                                                                                                          Greetings , welcome to my realm, the snail pomacea bridgesi or black mystery snail is not on the Gouramis diet. Of course what if written doesn't always apply.
                                                                                                                                                                          But you have some factors in your favor, one this snail has a built in defense mechanism called an operculum, a sort of trapdoor that closes over the apreture and seals it off from pestering fish of crawfish, so once the trouble has passed you see it sort of crack it open a bit to peek out , coast is clear it themn climbs back out and goes about it's days chores.
                                                                                                                                                                          Also, the shell is very strong (for fresh water gastropods [snails]) so the gouramis con't open it .

                                                                                                                                                                          I suspent two factors here for their behavior,
                                                                                                                                                                          one, they usually starve the heck out of fish in the stores, never knew why and don't really care why.
                                                                                                                                                                          Two, it's something new,  gouramis and their cousins are rather intellegent for fish, they like to "Check things out" so it was moree of a "What is this " type of thing. if they persist, toss in a apple snail , that will divert their attention away from you mystery snail..

                                                                                                                                                                          OK my question, I have seen this "Common name" mystery snail several times, can't figure out what is so mysterious with it , it's not sinistal, it's not two headed , so what's up?

                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                          japanesegorilla05 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          Hi all, today my brother picked up two gold gouramis from petco to
                                                                                                                                                                          add to his tank. In the tank there was already 3 black high fin
                                                                                                                                                                          tetras and a black mystery snail, the tetras and the gouramis are
                                                                                                                                                                          getting along well enough, but the gouramis seem to enjoy picking at
                                                                                                                                                                          the snail. We are all quite attached to this snail and believe it or
                                                                                                                                                                          not we would rather get rid of the gouramis than let the snail
                                                                                                                                                                          suffer. One thing, is that they hadn't been fed since being added,
                                                                                                                                                                          and they seemed to be more interested in the food, so perhaps as
                                                                                                                                                                          long as we keep them well fed they won't bug the snail. If any of
                                                                                                                                                                          you happen to know of this is common, or if it just so happens that
                                                                                                                                                                          our gouramis like to pick on snails please let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                          Jay



                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4654 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                          Aw once again you guys (gals too) let me flex my snail brains.

                                                                                                                                                                          To clean sea shells they are commonly cleaned with straight bleach which causes coraline deposits , banacles and corals to detach cleanly leaving a shell suitable for the shell trade (we are talking BIG money, one Cypraea Fultoni [type of rare cowrie] is worth on adverage $1,200.00 USD) this soaking in the bleach penetrates into the shell, also acids are used on some types of shells to strip the periostricum which is very difficult to remove. other additives such as minral oil is used to bring back luster striped away by other processes. All in all , specimen shells should not be used in an aquarium , they ae valuable, with the worlds market of "Perfect condition, fair condition" specimen shells becoming scarce it's best to place specimen shells in a dark box (acid free paper , box NOT built from oak as this would cause blighs disease) with it's data information until you would like to show them.

                                                                                                                                                                          If it is a shell the YOU PERSONALLY found on the beach, simple soak in fresh water will remove the salt build-up is fine in fact you should be more concerned that there isn't  any part of the animal left inside as it would be purtid

                                                                                                                                                                          japanesegorilla05 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                          to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                          added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                          years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                          add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                          little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                          this be alright?

                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                          Jay



                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4655 From: StarWolf Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Digest Number 368
                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                            Thank you to everyone for the wonderful suggestions! I think I will do some cyber-shopping and see what looks right for this tank. (The less I spend on books, the more I have for fish *grins*)
                                                                                                                                                                            This is not my first tank every. I had a wonderful little 10 gallon aquarium with 2 angels, two dannies and two tetra, about 13 years ago, however, this is my first 50 gallon tank. *grin* My old tank did not have any real plants, I did not have snails and was not very successful. I think the part about the baby turning the heater up and cooking the fish was the part that stopped me from having another tank for such a long time. I actually had two survivors in that "natural" disaster - one dannie and one tetra... named Danny and Tetra.

                                                                                                                                                                            Mark, Was that a complement about my name, StarWolf?

                                                                                                                                                                            ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                            At 04:18 PM 8/29/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            Aw the allure of the aquaria, studies have shown positive physiological and physiological changes between groups who had a fish tank to watch against the group that didn't . It was a legitimate study (not a million dollar gov grant to see if throwing a potato at someone you don't know will make them mad.)
                                                                                                                                                                            Some of the positive results in your case was a drop in blood pressure, researchers didn't know if it was the fish, the flowing water or the lights on the water, I think we know what it is don't we :)
                                                                                                                                                                            So, what kind of fish,

                                                                                                                                                                            Two considerations must be decided upon,
                                                                                                                                                                            Community tank OR aggressive or more specific feeders or habitats type fish.

                                                                                                                                                                            If this is your first tank it's ALWAYS better to go with Community, and my reasons are sound. You can get away with more docile fish, cheaper fish, and usually more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                            Tetra's like those beautiful neon's and cardinals (neon's brothers who decided to wear some extra red to the ball) and black , congo, and about a dozen other species carrying the tetra family flag, they are easy going, don't fight, sometimes produce young. Along with the tetras is another family of fish you might find both beautiful and easy to keep, Gouramis and paradise fish, these guys come with a built in back up system, if your air pump should fail all the other fish might be doing the upside-down dance but they have a labyrinth organ that allows them to breath regular air from the surface for as long as they need to , in fact I have a pond that has no pump or filter and is a complete biosphere in it's self..

                                                                                                                                                                            OK away from my pond before I ramble on ,

                                                                                                                                                                            Other nice fish for community tanks are Platy's, mollies and swordtails, sometimes they might get a bit "pushy" or fin nip but the majority of the list here will agree that for the most part they are docile and they are colorful plus in but a few months the numbers will grow by themselves, they are live bearers and good at it.
                                                                                                                                                                            But may I suggest that you get a book and do some "page shopping" and find what you like, just remember some fish are a bit mean in their behavior like chiclids all of them, they are a type fish that you wouldn't be able to have but a few, and they are quarrelsome, but they are beautiful. But in a community tank they will eat all their tank mates that aren't their kind and aren't bigger than they.

                                                                                                                                                                            Well I hope some of this help, ask anytime and of course where are my manners, WElcome to the list,

                                                                                                                                                                            Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                            PS, Like your Cybername, cool


                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4656 From: bryants4god Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail
                                                                                                                                                                            generally a mystery snails is a pomacea bridgesii although occasionally it's a pomacea canaliculata.  I have a blue gouramis in one of my snail tanks and it doesn't bother the snails.  The snail can stay closed up for protection but if the fish doesn't settle down the snail will starve to death or be injured when forced to come out and find food.  I would give it a few days before you decide for sure.  Also if you have a flower pot or something the snail can crawl into or under that might help.  Keep an eye on the antennae and eye stalks for damage.
                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                            Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                            From: Mark J. Bethke [mailto:mbethke@...]
                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Gold Gouramis and a Mystery Snail

                                                                                                                                                                            Greetings , welcome to my realm, the snail pomacea bridgesi or black mystery snail is not on the Gouramis diet. Of course what if written doesn't always apply.
                                                                                                                                                                            But you have some factors in your favor, one this snail has a built in defense mechanism called an operculum, a sort of trapdoor that closes over the apreture and seals it off from pestering fish of crawfish, so once the trouble has passed you see it sort of crack it open a bit to peek out , coast is clear it themn climbs back out and goes about it's days chores.
                                                                                                                                                                            Also, the shell is very strong (for fresh water gastropods [snails]) so the gouramis con't open it .

                                                                                                                                                                            I suspent two factors here for their behavior,
                                                                                                                                                                            one, they usually starve the heck out of fish in the stores, never knew why and don't really care why.
                                                                                                                                                                            Two, it's something new,  gouramis and their cousins are rather intellegent for fish, they like to "Check things out" so it was moree of a "What is this " type of thing. if they persist, toss in a apple snail , that will divert their attention away from you mystery snail..

                                                                                                                                                                            OK my question, I have seen this "Common name" mystery snail several times, can't figure out what is so mysterious with it , it's not sinistal, it's not two headed , so what's up?

                                                                                                                                                                            Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                            japanesegorilla05 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            Hi all, today my brother picked up two gold gouramis from petco to
                                                                                                                                                                            add to his tank. In the tank there was already 3 black high fin
                                                                                                                                                                            tetras and a black mystery snail, the tetras and the gouramis are
                                                                                                                                                                            getting along well enough, but the gouramis seem to enjoy picking at
                                                                                                                                                                            the snail. We are all quite attached to this snail and believe it or
                                                                                                                                                                            not we would rather get rid of the gouramis than let the snail
                                                                                                                                                                            suffer. One thing, is that they hadn't been fed since being added,
                                                                                                                                                                            and they seemed to be more interested in the food, so perhaps as
                                                                                                                                                                            long as we keep them well fed they won't bug the snail. If any of
                                                                                                                                                                            you happen to know of this is common, or if it just so happens that
                                                                                                                                                                            our gouramis like to pick on snails please let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                            Jay



                                                                                                                                                                                    





                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4657 From: blp2021 Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4658 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry to derail that idea BUT, the matrix in a mollusc shell is complex, under magnification it looks like a series of interlocking spiderwebs of sort. The calcium carbonate needs carbonic acid to break down at all other than by mechanioc means such as erosion . Coral calcium is even more tightly bound, and limestone , more so upto marble which is the metmorphic rock produced from limestone and it is very dense.

                                                                                                                                                                            Coral sand on the other hand has been broken down, the latice cracked andf that's why coral sand will raise the Ph but rarely over 7.4. I use it since it's fantastic for root development. But that's me.

                                                                                                                                                                            Polymer resins of ureathanes could also breakdown so unless the shell is crushed don't worry, like I said before the greater concern is that the animal left inside would release toxins, but there is an easy method for detection, stick your nose in, if you smell something nasty then I'd pass on it, if not , don't worry.

                                                                                                                                                                            BTW, just for my own curiosity what shellos do you have, are they collected from a beach or a shell shop or gift basket?
                                                                                                                                                                            All the best,
                                                                                                                                                                            MJB

                                                                                                                                                                            Tim Walker wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                            I would be more worried about the shells in your tank raising the hardness of the water too high.
                                                                                                                                                                            I believe I've read in previous discussion the best way is to lacquer the objects with a non toxic water
                                                                                                                                                                            impermeable lacquer. Otherwise you will get chemicals leeching into the water over time. Maybe not enough to kill the fish that are in there, but enough to kill any new additions to the tank from shock at a later date.

                                                                                                                                                                            Tim


                                                                                                                                                                            On 30/08/2004, at 3:04 PM, japanesegorilla05 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                            to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                            added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                            years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                            add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                            little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                            this be alright?

                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                            Jay




                                                                                                                                                                                    







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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4659 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Snails & Breeding
                                                                                                                                                                            Snails pointless??? in what sense? MJB

                                                                                                                                                                            agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            some ppl really like them... until i looked at terri's page i thought snails were pointless but hers are so pretty i have heard of many ppl just having snail tanks... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4660 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            i'd like to know the same, but toss in NY winters.
                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            On Aug 30, 2004, at 2:55 PM, blp2021 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > thank you.

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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4661 From: Joy Midkiff Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Digest Number 370- nice sharks

                                                                                                                                                                            Everything Ive read say that if you have danios in a group that they are supposed to be really great community fish, but a couple of my danios seem to enjoy chasing down and harrasing my other fish.  Am I alone in this???
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            Joy
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                                                                                                                                                                            There are 4 messages in this issue.

                                                                                                                                                                            Topics in this digest:

                                                                                                                                                                            1. Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                            From: Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                            2. Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Sarah Harrison"
                                                                                                                                                                            3. Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            From: sunil kamath
                                                                                                                                                                            4. Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Sarah Harrison"


                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                            Message: 1
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:49:21 +1000
                                                                                                                                                                            From: Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe


                                                                                                                                                                            I would be more worried about the shells in your tank raising the
                                                                                                                                                                            hardness of the water too high.
                                                                                                                                                                            I believe I've read in previous discussion the best way is to lacquer
                                                                                                                                                                            the objects with a non toxic water
                                                                                                                                                                            impermeable lacquer. Otherwise you will get chemicals leeching into the
                                                                                                                                                                            water over time. Maybe not enough to kill the fish that are in there,
                                                                                                                                                                            but enough to kill any new additions to the tank from shock at a later
                                                                                                                                                                            date.

                                                                                                                                                                            Tim


                                                                                                                                                                            On 30/08/2004, at 3:04 PM, japanesegorilla05 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                            > to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                            > added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                            > years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                            > add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                            > little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                            > this be alright?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >         
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                            >  
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                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                            Message: 2
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:49:42 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time)
                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Sarah Harrison"
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?

                                                                                                                                                                            Have to disagree there, I have always had a red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                            shark and never had a problem with them. We have a red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                            in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios, clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                            some are about 1cm. they all live happily.

                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah


                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                            From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?

                                                                                                                                                                            Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                            large number of other types of fish. Since you're trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                            this might be a fish to avoid.

                                                                                                                                                                            Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                            either go with a smaller loach or just cories.




                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            From: "sunil kamath"
                                                                                                                                                                            > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                            > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys, betta,
                                                                                                                                                                            > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                            > other.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > You can study on the web in detail and then decide on
                                                                                                                                                                            > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                            >




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                                                                                                                                                                            [This message contained attachments]



                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                            Message: 3
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                            From: sunil kamath
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?

                                                                                                                                                                            same with me.

                                                                                                                                                                            I have a red tailed shark in my 55gal planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                            with platys, danios, tetras, clownloaches, angels,
                                                                                                                                                                            kribs, rasboras and its never bothered or caused
                                                                                                                                                                            trouble to any of its tankmates...

                                                                                                                                                                            Clowns are fun to watch and of course they grow upto
                                                                                                                                                                            10" but not in a 55 gal and if in a 55 gal alsoits not
                                                                                                                                                                            overnight right..

                                                                                                                                                                            I have mine with me for more than 2 years and its
                                                                                                                                                                            about 3.5 - 4".

                                                                                                                                                                            ..........SuNnY !


                                                                                                                                                                            --- Sarah Harrison wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                            > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                            > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                            > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                            > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                            > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                            > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                            > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                            > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                            > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                            > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                            > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "sunil kamath"
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                            > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                            > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                            > on
                                                                                                                                                                            > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            Message: 4
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:35:51 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time)
                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Sarah Harrison"
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?

                                                                                                                                                                            We have had our shark for a year in November and he is about the same size.

                                                                                                                                                                            Well ia can't be the only one then that have owned "nice" sharks.....lol

                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah

                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                            From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 08/30/04 13:28:09
                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?

                                                                                                                                                                            same with me.

                                                                                                                                                                            I have a red tailed shark in my 55gal planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                            with platys, danios, tetras, clownloaches, angels,
                                                                                                                                                                            kribs, rasboras and its never bothered or caused
                                                                                                                                                                            trouble to any of its tankmates...

                                                                                                                                                                            Clowns are fun to watch and of course they grow upto
                                                                                                                                                                            10" but not in a 55 gal and if in a 55 gal alsoits not
                                                                                                                                                                            overnight right..

                                                                                                                                                                            I have mine with me for more than 2 years and its
                                                                                                                                                                            about 3.5 - 4".

                                                                                                                                                                            ...........SuNnY !


                                                                                                                                                                            --- Sarah Harrison wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                            > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                            > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                            > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                            > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                            > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                            > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                            > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                            > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                            > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                            > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                            > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "sunil kamath"
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                            > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                            > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                            > on
                                                                                                                                                                            > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            =====




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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4662 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Digest Number 370- nice sharks
                                                                                                                                                                            not at all, danios are a semi aggressive fish, and
                                                                                                                                                                            putting them in numbers" may " calm them down.


                                                                                                                                                                            --- Joy Midkiff <joy_of_simon_haza@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Everything Ive read say that if you have danios in a
                                                                                                                                                                            > group that they are supposed to be really great
                                                                                                                                                                            > community fish, but a couple of my danios seem to
                                                                                                                                                                            > enjoy chasing down and harrasing my other fish. Am
                                                                                                                                                                            > I alone in this???
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > There are 4 messages in this issue.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Topics in this digest:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 1. Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                            > 2. Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "Sarah Harrison"
                                                                                                                                                                            > 3. Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: sunil kamath
                                                                                                                                                                            > 4. Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "Sarah Harrison"
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Message: 1
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:49:21 +1000
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > I would be more worried about the shells in your
                                                                                                                                                                            > tank raising the
                                                                                                                                                                            > hardness of the water too high.
                                                                                                                                                                            > I believe I've read in previous discussion the best
                                                                                                                                                                            > way is to lacquer
                                                                                                                                                                            > the objects with a non toxic water
                                                                                                                                                                            > impermeable lacquer. Otherwise you will get
                                                                                                                                                                            > chemicals leeching into the
                                                                                                                                                                            > water over time. Maybe not enough to kill the fish
                                                                                                                                                                            > that are in there,
                                                                                                                                                                            > but enough to kill any new additions to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                            > from shock at a later
                                                                                                                                                                            > date.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Tim
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > On 30/08/2004, at 3:04 PM, japanesegorilla05 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make
                                                                                                                                                                            > something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                            > > to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding
                                                                                                                                                                            > sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                            > > added one to my tank that I knew was safe because
                                                                                                                                                                            > I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                            > > years before hand, but I have several new ones
                                                                                                                                                                            > that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                            > > add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I
                                                                                                                                                                            > let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                            > > little bit of iodine water for a while and then
                                                                                                                                                                            > adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                            > > this be alright?
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            > [This message contained attachments]
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                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Message: 2
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:49:42 +0100 (GMT Daylight
                                                                                                                                                                            > Time)
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "Sarah Harrison"
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                            > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                            > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                            > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                            > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                            > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                            > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                            > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                            > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                            > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                            > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                            > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "sunil kamath"
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                            > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                            > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                            > on
                                                                                                                                                                            > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > [This message contained attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Message: 3
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: sunil kamath
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > same with me.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > I have a red tailed shark in my 55gal planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                            > with platys, danios, tetras, clownloaches, angels,
                                                                                                                                                                            > kribs, rasboras and its never bothered or caused
                                                                                                                                                                            > trouble to any of its tankmates...
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Clowns are fun to watch and of course they grow upto
                                                                                                                                                                            > 10" but not in a 55 gal and if in a 55 gal alsoits
                                                                                                                                                                            > not
                                                                                                                                                                            > overnight right..
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > I have mine with me for more than 2 years and its
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4663 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs too.


                                                                                                                                                                            --- blp2021 <blp2021@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                            > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                            > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >




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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4664 From: amalthea23 Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            but which can survive the winter?
                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            On Aug 30, 2004, at 11:41 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs too.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > --- blp2021 <blp2021@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                            > > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4665 From: red-eye Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                            Your looking for trouble IMHO :-)




                                                                                                                                                                            At 10:04 PM 8/29/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                            to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                            added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                            years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                            add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                            little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                            this be alright?

                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                            Jay


                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye

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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4666 From: red-eye Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            Hmmmmm the only crab I can think of would be my mother-in-law.......

                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                            At 12:23 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            i'd like to know the same, but toss in NY winters.
                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            On Aug 30, 2004, at 2:55 PM, blp2021 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            >  WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            >  CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            >  thank you.

                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye

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                                                                                                                                                                            The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                            If you are thinking about being a keeper
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                                                                                                                                                                            For accurate, useful care information
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4667 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS

                                                                                                                                                                            How about Antarctic-Krill?

                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                            Hmmmmm the only crab I can think of would be my mother-in-law.......

                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                            At 12:23 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            i'd like to know the same, but toss in NY winters.
                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            On Aug 30, 2004, at 2:55 PM, blp2021 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > thank you.

                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>

                                                                                                                                                                            Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                                                                                            The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                            If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                            http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                            For accurate, useful care information
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                                                                                                                                                                            ~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4668 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS

                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry about the Antarctic-Krill suggestion. My 20/20 hindsight just told me they're saltwater. For esoteric potential, a few years ago German scuba-divers found jellyfish in Pennsylvania quarries.

                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                            Hmmmmm the only crab I can think of would be my mother-in-law.......

                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                            At 12:23 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            i'd like to know the same, but toss in NY winters.
                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            On Aug 30, 2004, at 2:55 PM, blp2021 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > thank you.

                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>

                                                                                                                                                                            Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                                                                                            The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                            If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                            http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                            For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                            ~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                            Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                            Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                            ><~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>






                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4669 From: paul helms Date: 8/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            there are small fresh water jelly like critters found
                                                                                                                                                                            in most standing ponds of 50 or more gallons on
                                                                                                                                                                            construction sites in california as well. they are
                                                                                                                                                                            about the size of quarters and can be clear to opaque
                                                                                                                                                                            red. i remember finding 100's in my childhood in the
                                                                                                                                                                            hills when they started construction.
                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                            --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            > Sorry about the Antarctic-Krill suggestion. My 20/20
                                                                                                                                                                            > hindsight just told me they're saltwater. For
                                                                                                                                                                            > esoteric potential, a few years ago German
                                                                                                                                                                            > scuba-divers found jellyfish in Pennsylvania
                                                                                                                                                                            > quarries.
                                                                                                                                                                            > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                            > Hmmmmm the only crab I can think of would be my
                                                                                                                                                                            > mother-in-law.......
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > At 12:23 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > i'd like to know the same, but toss in NY winters.
                                                                                                                                                                            > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            > On Aug 30, 2004, at 2:55 PM, blp2021 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN
                                                                                                                                                                            > MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                            > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > <~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                            > <~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                            > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                            > http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                            > <~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                            > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                            > ~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                            > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                            > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                            > ><~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4670 From: Aaron Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
                                                                                                                                                                            Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                            Pet Extreme in Livermore CA, is giving away a pair of nurse sharks.
                                                                                                                                                                            They are M&F almost 1 year old currently in a 780 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                            Pet Extreme (925) 373-XPET
                                                                                                                                                                            4500 Arroyo Vista Drive, Livermore CA 94551 / 2840 Countryside
                                                                                                                                                                            Drive, Turlock CA 95380 Tel. (209) 656-7085
                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.petextreme.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4671 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            I wouldn't class the tank as semi aggressive. I have a group of 7 Danios and don't get any problem with them chasing other fish around, and like i said in the last post i have babies swimming around the tank as well that are about 1cm long and even they do not get chased.
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            It is the same with the barbs, we have had them about 2 weeks and don't get much of a problem with them either.
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 08/30/04 16:03:33
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            you seem to havea  semi agressive tank, which a red
                                                                                                                                                                            tail shark would fit into just fine.  the barbs and
                                                                                                                                                                            danios are both semi agressive, and the other have
                                                                                                                                                                            most likely just adapted.  i would not recomend them
                                                                                                                                                                            for a straight community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                            > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                            > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                            > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                            > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                            > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice
                                                                                                                                                                            > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                            > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                            > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                            > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                            > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                            > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                            > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons, cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                            > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at each
                                                                                                                                                                            > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > You can study on the web in detail and then decide
                                                                                                                                                                            > on
                                                                                                                                                                            > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4672 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS

                                                                                                                                                                               What surprised me about the jellyfish in PA. was, it was GERMAN scuba divers, and in Florida it was AUSTRALIAN scuba-divers wha were exploring underground watercourses/aquafers. Why local state or national interests were'nt first in TV  documentaries or newspapers, or radio news, to find such things made me wonder why?

                                                                                                                                                                                                   JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                            > there are small fresh water jelly like critters found
                                                                                                                                                                            > in most standing ponds of 50 or more gallons on
                                                                                                                                                                            > construction sites in california as well. they are
                                                                                                                                                                            > about the size of quarters and can be clear to opaque
                                                                                                                                                                            > red. i remember finding 100's in my childhood in the
                                                                                                                                                                            > hills when they started construction.
                                                                                                                                                                            > paul
                                                                                                                                                                            > --- j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sorry about the Antarctic-Krill suggestion. My 20/20
                                                                                                                                                                            > > hindsight just told me they're saltwater. For
                                                                                                                                                                            > > esoteric potential, a few years ago German
                                                                                                                                                                            > > scuba-divers found jellyfish in Pennsylvania
                                                                                                                                                                            > > quarries.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hmmmmm the only crab I can think of would be my
                                                                                                                                                                            > > mother-in-law.......
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > At 12:23 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > i'd like to know the same, but toss in NY winters.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                            > > On Aug 30, 2004, at 2:55 PM, blp2021 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN
                                                                                                                                                                            > > MEDIUM-LARGE, SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                            > > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                            > > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > <~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                            > > <~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                            > > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                            > > http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                            > > <~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                            > > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                            > > http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                            > > ~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                            > > The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                            > > ><~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>xx<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4673 From: EDITHAN1@AOL.COM Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: pond shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                            im in MO and i tried small crawdads/crayfish, which are found naturally in our lakes and streams, and as stated earlier, they were hunted and have all disappeared. If you got them (crawdads) the right size, they would be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                            i assume you were asking about ghost shrimp that are kept in freshwater tropical aquariums? i've never had these live long enuf to see their mature-adult size.
                                                                                                                                                                            nothing "tropical" will survive a MO winter. i dug my pond 36" deep for the fish & plants to survive.
                                                                                                                                                                            edith
                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4674 From: Patrick Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                              Because all of the American explorers were in Germany and Australia looking for new life? :) 
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                              What surprised me about the jellyfish in PA. was, it was GERMAN scuba divers, and in Florida it was AUSTRALIAN scuba-divers wha were exploring underground watercourses/aquafers. Why local state or national interests were'nt first in TV  documentaries or newspapers, or radio news, to find such things made me wonder why?

                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4675 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: combining cichlids?
                                                                                                                                                                              I have one angel and a pair of kribs in my 30g. I've had the kribs ~7 months now and they are very definitely a non-breeding pair, actually quite peaceful with all the other fish. They're both 3-3.5" long.

                                                                                                                                                                              Could I add my German rams to this tank without problems?
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4676 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: combining cichlids?
                                                                                                                                                                              Hello! I've mixed kribs and rams before without any problems. BUT only the rams were breeding then and they're not aggressive enough to kill other fishes. My kribs, on the other hand, have killed young fish, shrimp and snails when they are guarding eggs and fry.
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Rod

                                                                                                                                                                              Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              I have one angel and a pair of kribs in my 30g. I've had the kribs ~7 months now and they are very definitely a non-breeding pair, actually quite peaceful with all the other fish. They're both 3-3.5" long.

                                                                                                                                                                              Could I add my German rams to this tank without problems?
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks.


                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4677 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Digest Number 371 - MONEY MAKER ??????
                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 8/31/04 6:32:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                              From: "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 368

                                                                                                                                                                              Aw the allure of the aquaria, studies have shown positive physiological
                                                                                                                                                                              and physiological changes between groups who had a fish tank to watch
                                                                                                                                                                              against the group that didn't . It was a legitimate study (not a million
                                                                                                                                                                              dollar gov grant to see if throwing a potato at someone you don't know
                                                                                                                                                                              will make them mad.)


                                                                                                                                                                              Any chance of getting in on that study ??????????  I have a lot of potatoes and a lot of people I don't know.  Maybe I can make some extra money on this.

                                                                                                                                                                              QQQQQQQQQQ
                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4678 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS

                                                                                                                                                                              I leaned towards government and business being more interested in business. Maybe foreign investors and explorers if you will, were more interested in  US watercourses and aquafers than Federal, State and Local politicians/educators. Education is dictated by the State and Federal policies coordinated with the needs of business through cooperation with higher education. Somewhere around the time German scuba-divers found jelly-fish here, Volkswagen was talking about bringing in an auto plant. Could be coincidence, but what kind? Interest in fish in this country is political. Combined with business we have mercury contamainated fish. Fish full of plastic waste.In a recent documentary (within the last few days) baby birds in California were found dead and decomposed, their bellies rotted away were full of plastic because the parent/s thought they were feeding fish.. The babys could'nt eat because their bellies were full of plastic.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                              Because all of the American explorers were in Germany and Australia looking for new life? :)
                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                              What surprised me about the jellyfish in PA. was, it was GERMAN scuba divers, and in Florida it was AUSTRALIAN scuba-divers wha were exploring underground watercourses/aquafers. Why local state or national interests were'nt first in TV documentaries or newspapers, or radio news, to find such things made me wonder why?

                                                                                                                                                                              JoeP







                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4679 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Feeding Puffer
                                                                                                                                                                              I got a small leopard puffer fish for my 10-gallon, I know once he
                                                                                                                                                                              gets bigger I'll have to get him a bigger home, but for now he is
                                                                                                                                                                              just over an inch...

                                                                                                                                                                              Iv read about them and know they can be aggressive, the only other
                                                                                                                                                                              tank mates are 2 dalmation mollies who really hold their own...but
                                                                                                                                                                              puffer is always hungry...Iv been feeding a few live black worms
                                                                                                                                                                              each day and I have frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms every other
                                                                                                                                                                              day...any advice on feeding everyday vs. every other day? Id like
                                                                                                                                                                              to feed every other day so my tank doesn't get polluted...but I
                                                                                                                                                                              don't wanna make him more aggressive due to hunger frustration...
                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4680 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer
                                                                                                                                                                              puffers usually get aggressive out of curiosity,
                                                                                                                                                                              rather than hunger. they generally try to check out
                                                                                                                                                                              the other fish, and when they run away, the puffer
                                                                                                                                                                              starts to nip and chase.

                                                                                                                                                                              --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                              > I got a small leopard puffer fish for my 10-gallon,
                                                                                                                                                                              > I know once he
                                                                                                                                                                              > gets bigger I'll have to get him a bigger home, but
                                                                                                                                                                              > for now he is
                                                                                                                                                                              > just over an inch...
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > Iv read about them and know they can be aggressive,
                                                                                                                                                                              > the only other
                                                                                                                                                                              > tank mates are 2 dalmation mollies who really hold
                                                                                                                                                                              > their own...but
                                                                                                                                                                              > puffer is always hungry...Iv been feeding a few live
                                                                                                                                                                              > black worms
                                                                                                                                                                              > each day and I have frozen brine shrimp and
                                                                                                                                                                              > bloodworms every other
                                                                                                                                                                              > day...any advice on feeding everyday vs. every other
                                                                                                                                                                              > day? Id like
                                                                                                                                                                              > to feed every other day so my tank doesn't get
                                                                                                                                                                              > polluted...but I
                                                                                                                                                                              > don't wanna make him more aggressive due to hunger
                                                                                                                                                                              > frustration...
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4681 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                              semi agressive fish don't tend to pick on eachother,
                                                                                                                                                                              rather on peaceful fish, but the fish you have are
                                                                                                                                                                              semi agressive.

                                                                                                                                                                              --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                              > I wouldn't class the tank as semi aggressive. I have
                                                                                                                                                                              > a group of 7 Danios and
                                                                                                                                                                              > don't get any problem with them chasing other fish
                                                                                                                                                                              > around, and like i said
                                                                                                                                                                              > in the last post i have babies swimming around the
                                                                                                                                                                              > tank as well that are
                                                                                                                                                                              > about 1cm long and even they do not get chased.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > It is the same with the barbs, we have had them
                                                                                                                                                                              > about 2 weeks and don't get
                                                                                                                                                                              > much of a problem with them either.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              > Date: 08/30/04 16:03:33
                                                                                                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                              > Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > you seem to havea semi agressive tank, which a red
                                                                                                                                                                              > tail shark would fit into just fine. the barbs and
                                                                                                                                                                              > danios are both semi agressive, and the other have
                                                                                                                                                                              > most likely just adapted. i would not recomend them
                                                                                                                                                                              > for a straight community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                              > > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                              > > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                              > > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                              > > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                              > > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > From:
                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                              > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                              > Advice
                                                                                                                                                                              > > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                              > > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                              > > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                              > > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                              > > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                              > > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                              > > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                              > > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons,
                                                                                                                                                                              > cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at
                                                                                                                                                                              > each
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > You can study on the web in detail and then
                                                                                                                                                                              > decide
                                                                                                                                                                              > > on
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4682 From: robdar4609 Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer / Brackish water
                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for info..

                                                                                                                                                                              I also added two level tabelspoons of aquarium salt to the 10-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                              to make it brackish, since I read puffers adn mollies like this...I
                                                                                                                                                                              also do 20 percent water changes each week...should I be adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                              to the new water? If so, how much per gallon since 2 tablespoons is
                                                                                                                                                                              for 10 gallon...


                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                              <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              > puffers usually get aggressive out of curiosity,
                                                                                                                                                                              > rather than hunger. they generally try to check out
                                                                                                                                                                              > the other fish, and when they run away, the puffer
                                                                                                                                                                              > starts to nip and chase.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > I got a small leopard puffer fish for my 10-gallon,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > I know once he
                                                                                                                                                                              > > gets bigger I'll have to get him a bigger home, but
                                                                                                                                                                              > > for now he is
                                                                                                                                                                              > > just over an inch...
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Iv read about them and know they can be aggressive,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > the only other
                                                                                                                                                                              > > tank mates are 2 dalmation mollies who really hold
                                                                                                                                                                              > > their own...but
                                                                                                                                                                              > > puffer is always hungry...Iv been feeding a few live
                                                                                                                                                                              > > black worms
                                                                                                                                                                              > > each day and I have frozen brine shrimp and
                                                                                                                                                                              > > bloodworms every other
                                                                                                                                                                              > > day...any advice on feeding everyday vs. every other
                                                                                                                                                                              > > day? Id like
                                                                                                                                                                              > > to feed every other day so my tank doesn't get
                                                                                                                                                                              > > polluted...but I
                                                                                                                                                                              > > don't wanna make him more aggressive due to hunger
                                                                                                                                                                              > > frustration...
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4683 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                              Since when have Mollies, guppies, and platy's and there babies been semi aggressive??? 
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              As far as i knew, they are peaceful community fish.
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Date: 08/31/04 18:30:51
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              semi agressive fish don't tend to pick on eachother,
                                                                                                                                                                              rather on peaceful fish, but the fish you have are
                                                                                                                                                                              semi agressive.
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              > I wouldn't class the tank as semi aggressive. I have
                                                                                                                                                                              > a group of 7 Danios and
                                                                                                                                                                              > don't get any problem with them chasing other fish
                                                                                                                                                                              > around, and like i said
                                                                                                                                                                              > in the last post i have babies swimming around the
                                                                                                                                                                              > tank as well that are
                                                                                                                                                                              > about 1cm long and even they do not get chased.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > It is the same with the barbs, we have had them
                                                                                                                                                                              > about 2 weeks and don't get
                                                                                                                                                                              > much of a problem with them either.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > Date: 08/30/04 16:03:33
                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                              > Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > you seem to havea  semi agressive tank, which a red
                                                                                                                                                                              > tail shark would fit into just fine.  the barbs and
                                                                                                                                                                              > danios are both semi agressive, and the other have
                                                                                                                                                                              > most likely just adapted.  i would not recomend them
                                                                                                                                                                              > for a straight community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                              > > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                              > > shark and never had a problem with them. We have a
                                                                                                                                                                              > > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                              > > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                              > > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > From:
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                              > Advice
                                                                                                                                                                              > > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                              > > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                              > > large number of other types of fish. Since you're
                                                                                                                                                                              > > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                              > > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3; clowns
                                                                                                                                                                              > > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                              > > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                              > > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons,
                                                                                                                                                                              > cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at
                                                                                                                                                                              > each
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > You can study on the web in detail and then
                                                                                                                                                                              > decide
                                                                                                                                                                              > > on
                                                                                                                                                                              > > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4684 From: Walt Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Denitrator
                                                                                                                                                                              I am thinking of building a coil denitrator and trying it on my
                                                                                                                                                                              125.Has anyone experimented with this? I have them on my marine
                                                                                                                                                                              tanks with great success, but have never heard of anyone trying it
                                                                                                                                                                              on a freshwater tank. Any input??
                                                                                                                                                                              thx,
                                                                                                                                                                              Walt
                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4685 From: Patrick Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer / Brackish water
                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    Not completely sure, but I think you need marine salt because brackish is half fresh water and half full marine saltwater.  That means it will need half the amount of everything that each type of water would have in it.  You would need to talk to experienced marine or brackish owners to get the details, but you would only and always add the salt/minerals when you do a water change.  And the best way to know if you have enough salt is to get a salt measurement, hydrometer I think it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for info..

                                                                                                                                                                                I also added two level tabelspoons of aquarium salt to the 10-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                to make it brackish, since I read puffers adn mollies like this...I
                                                                                                                                                                                also do 20 percent water changes each week...should I be adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                to the new water?  If so, how much per gallon since 2 tablespoons is
                                                                                                                                                                                for 10 gallon...
                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4686 From: Patrick Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Advice for 50... - aggressive mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      I would say that they are partially aggressive.  I have never seen them attack other fish, but many people have.  I was unfortunate enough to have raised 2 male mollies from fry, no female survived with them.  The two males fight each other and bite at each other, but so far haven't done any damage.  I didn't believe it myself until I saw it. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  Since when have Mollies, guppies, and platy's and there babies been semi aggressive??? 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as i knew, they are peaceful community fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4687 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Advice for 50... - aggressive mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                  Agreed, Mollies can be at least somwhat aggressive. Usually, the more common Black (sphenops) Mollie is thought of as quite peaceful, although with these fish sometimes being interbred (with other Mollie species), this fish can get somewhat aggressive; i.e., the temperament of Mollies varies with the species. I had Mollienisia latipinna, the Green Sailfin Mollie (now called Poecilia latipinna) many years ago and they were extremeley aggressive. A Black Sailfin (latipinna) Mollie was also developed many years ago and is sometimes used to cross with the generally more peaceful P. sphenops. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4688 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Feeding Puffer / Brackish water
                                                                                                                                                                                  a brackish water tank is 20% salt water, not 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Not completely sure, but I think you need marine
                                                                                                                                                                                  > salt because brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > is half fresh water and half full marine saltwater.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > That means it will need
                                                                                                                                                                                  > half the amount of everything that each type of
                                                                                                                                                                                  > water would have in it. You
                                                                                                                                                                                  > would need to talk to experienced marine or brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > owners to get the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > details, but you would only and always add the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > salt/minerals when you do a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > water change. And the best way to know if you have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > enough salt is to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > salt measurement, hydrometer I think it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                  > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                  > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                  > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                  > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                  > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                  > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                  > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                  > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for info..
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I also added two level tabelspoons of aquarium salt
                                                                                                                                                                                  > to the 10-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                  > to make it brackish, since I read puffers adn
                                                                                                                                                                                  > mollies like this...I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > also do 20 percent water changes each week...should
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I be adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                  > to the new water? If so, how much per gallon since
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 2 tablespoons is
                                                                                                                                                                                  > for 10 gallon...




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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4689 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  i was referring to the BARBS and DANIOS, but since you
                                                                                                                                                                                  bring it up, guppies, mollies, platties and sword
                                                                                                                                                                                  tails are related, which means that they too have a
                                                                                                                                                                                  tendency to go after long finned fish, especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                  males of the breeds.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Since when have Mollies, guppies, and platy's and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > there babies been semi
                                                                                                                                                                                  > aggressive???
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As far as i knew, they are peaceful community fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: 08/31/04 18:30:51
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > semi agressive fish don't tend to pick on eachother,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > rather on peaceful fish, but the fish you have are
                                                                                                                                                                                  > semi agressive.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I wouldn't class the tank as semi aggressive. I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > a group of 7 Danios and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > don't get any problem with them chasing other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > around, and like i said
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > in the last post i have babies swimming around the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > tank as well that are
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > about 1cm long and even they do not get chased.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > It is the same with the barbs, we have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > about 2 weeks and don't get
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > much of a problem with them either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > From:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Date: 08/30/04 16:03:33
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > you seem to havea semi agressive tank, which a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > red
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > tail shark would fit into just fine. the barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > danios are both semi agressive, and the other have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > most likely just adapted. i would not recomend
                                                                                                                                                                                  > them
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > for a straight community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > shark and never had a problem with them. We have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > From:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Advice
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > large number of other types of fish. Since
                                                                                                                                                                                  > you're
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3;
                                                                                                                                                                                  > clowns
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown
                                                                                                                                                                                  > loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > each
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > You can study on the web in detail and then
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > decide
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4690 From: paul helms Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  and further more, any time you raise peaceful fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  with aggressive fish, the survivors will have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                  aggressive to be just that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Since when have Mollies, guppies, and platy's and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > there babies been semi
                                                                                                                                                                                  > aggressive???
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As far as i knew, they are peaceful community fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: 08/31/04 18:30:51
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > semi agressive fish don't tend to pick on eachother,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > rather on peaceful fish, but the fish you have are
                                                                                                                                                                                  > semi agressive.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I wouldn't class the tank as semi aggressive. I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > a group of 7 Danios and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > don't get any problem with them chasing other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > around, and like i said
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > in the last post i have babies swimming around the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > tank as well that are
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > about 1cm long and even they do not get chased.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > It is the same with the barbs, we have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > about 2 weeks and don't get
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > much of a problem with them either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > From:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Date: 08/30/04 16:03:33
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Advice for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > you seem to havea semi agressive tank, which a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > red
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > tail shark would fit into just fine. the barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > danios are both semi agressive, and the other have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > most likely just adapted. i would not recomend
                                                                                                                                                                                  > them
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > for a straight community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Have to disagree there, I have always had a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > red-tailed shark or red-finned
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > shark and never had a problem with them. We have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > red-finned at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > in with guppies, mollies, barbs, neons, danios,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > clowns, platies and babies
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > some are about 1cm. they all live happily.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > From:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Date: 08/30/04 06:44:26
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Advice
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > for 50 gal tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Red tail sharks are iffy. Many fishkeepers have
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > trouble between them and a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > large number of other types of fish. Since
                                                                                                                                                                                  > you're
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > trying for a peaceful tank
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > this might be a fish to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Loaches like to be in groups of at least 3;
                                                                                                                                                                                  > clowns
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > can reach 9-10" so I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > either go with a smaller loach or just cories.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > From: "sunil kamath" <sunnyvks@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Well you can go in for Tetras ( neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > cardinals,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > black neons, widow tetras, etc etc ) , platys,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > a red tail shark, some corys, and clown
                                                                                                                                                                                  > loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > All these are peaceful fishes and wont nip at
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > each
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > other.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > You can study on the web in detail and then
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > decide
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > what pleases u and ur family.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4691 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 8/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: i hate ick
                                                                                                                                                                                  ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a little over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                  now. my green scat came with ick when i bought it but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                  fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive been using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                  mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish and not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                  i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                  white spots on him now. the mono has developed some ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                  left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                  couple days. why wont this annoying ick come off? all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                  eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4692 From: molly_lec Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                  We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank. Anyone that keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                  tanks or that knows about " caring for children" please help.

                                                                                                                                                                                  One of the fingerlings came home with a torn off upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                  looks like a turtle or something got a bite. Part of the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                  is missing with the lost fin part. It looks alright and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                  healing.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The water in the tank does seem to cloud very quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                  20-40 power filter that came with the tank package. Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                  plants and have been treating the cloudy water with ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                  states it will not be of harm to the Koi or plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I does seem like we should have somewhat clear water without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                  of chemicals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to my questions.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4693 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I recently set up a home aquarium after being away from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                  filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                  like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                  it thus far.

                                                                                                                                                                                  After letting the tank sit for about a week I put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                  and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                  for them to arrive.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4694 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: i hate ick
                                                                                                                                                                                  Its been a while since I had fish so the treatments might have
                                                                                                                                                                                  changed since then but I'll tell you what I remember.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The white spots that form Ich is actually a tiny paracite on the
                                                                                                                                                                                  fish. The life scycle involves them falling off the fish to the
                                                                                                                                                                                  bottom of the tank and reproducing and then finding a host fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                  glom on to. Fish can get peppered with them and eventually die.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I used to use a treatment that worked pretty good by making a salt
                                                                                                                                                                                  bath in a little bowl of tankwater and bathing the the fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  The salt makes the paracites let go of the fish and drop into the
                                                                                                                                                                                  dish. The fish can stand the strong salt bath better than the
                                                                                                                                                                                  paracites, but when they start to look weak, end the salt bath. You
                                                                                                                                                                                  can also touch the white spot with a grain of coarse salt to make it
                                                                                                                                                                                  let go. Then take the fish out and rinse him and put him back into
                                                                                                                                                                                  the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                  You still have to deal with the paracites in the tank though or it
                                                                                                                                                                                  will reinfect. A diatom filter will remove them without using
                                                                                                                                                                                  chemicals, nice and organic if you have one or can borrow one.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Otherwise you will have to treat the tank to get rid of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can remove the fishes to a small hospital aquarium and then
                                                                                                                                                                                  turn up the temperature that will accelerate the paracite life cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                  then you can put the fish back in after a couple days. The paracites
                                                                                                                                                                                  tend to stay near the bottom of a still aquarium so siphoning off
                                                                                                                                                                                  some bottomwater will reduce their number. Otherwise you are stuck
                                                                                                                                                                                  with chemical treatment of the entire tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                  FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "hiphopdjdecal"
                                                                                                                                                                                  <rygar126@u...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a little over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                  > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought it but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive been using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                  > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish and not the water)
                                                                                                                                                                                  and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                  > white spots on him now. the mono has developed some ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                  > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                  > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come off? all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                  > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4695 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                                  We just soaked the sea shells in fresh, rather acidic water for about
                                                                                                                                                                                  a week and then added them to the tanks. They do tend to make the
                                                                                                                                                                                  water a bit more alkaline if you are using a lot of them. but the
                                                                                                                                                                                  fish love them for hiding in. They do collect algae faster than
                                                                                                                                                                                  rock, though, so be warned.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4696 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: New Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, our tanks have been doing great. We squish the snails on the
                                                                                                                                                                                  side of the tank for fishy treats, and the guppies and Methuselah,
                                                                                                                                                                                  our now-five year old betta, comes up and bumps our fingers while
                                                                                                                                                                                  devouring the squished snails. The guppies have been breeding like
                                                                                                                                                                                  mad, but since Ya'll advised letting the fish go hungry a day or so a
                                                                                                                                                                                  week, the bigger fish have been eating most of the fry. Thanks to
                                                                                                                                                                                  your help, we have been able to keep three neon tetras alive and well
                                                                                                                                                                                  for several months. The frogs we got initially all died, because of
                                                                                                                                                                                  the snail killer we put in, and so did the shrimp...but we have been
                                                                                                                                                                                  letting it sit and changing the water bit by bit, so I'm thinking it
                                                                                                                                                                                  might be time to get more froggies and snails. Apparantly, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                  thing the snail killer DIDN'T kill...was the snails. Sigh.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway...I'm also thinking of getting one of those teeny dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                  puffers to eat the snails off the side of the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Then, this morning, we get a call from my DH. One of his buds on
                                                                                                                                                                                  base is going to play in the sandbox that is Iraq, and his wife has
                                                                                                                                                                                  flatly refused to take care of his tank while he's away. His brother
                                                                                                                                                                                  took his big salt water tank, but he wanted to keep his freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                  tank. He was moving anyway, so in the process of emptying it out and
                                                                                                                                                                                  moving it, he was giving away the fish. He gave us a nice big Angel
                                                                                                                                                                                  fish, a large golden banded gourami, two tiger barbs, one black and
                                                                                                                                                                                  red shark, three black neon tetras, a silver molly, a black and white
                                                                                                                                                                                  molly, a black and red platy, a white cory catfish, and two
                                                                                                                                                                                  plecostamus. The big angel and gourami are quite peaceful and eat
                                                                                                                                                                                  the fry of guppies and platies, but not the larger tetras...And
                                                                                                                                                                                  methuselah seems to be intrigued, but not aggressive towards the
                                                                                                                                                                                  newcomers. Sigh. I am going to need a bigger aquarium, soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4697 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                                  About which shells I have, I really dont know what kind they are, or
                                                                                                                                                                                  where they came from. A while back my uncle in law gave me his late
                                                                                                                                                                                  mother's shell collection, but seeing as how I was young at the
                                                                                                                                                                                  time, my mother got rid of all but some of my favorites. Those are
                                                                                                                                                                                  the ones that I was thinking about adding. I know that a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                  them were from a shell shop, but other than that I really have no
                                                                                                                                                                                  clue to their history.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay



                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sorry to derail that idea BUT, the matrix in a mollusc shell is
                                                                                                                                                                                  complex,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > under magnification it looks like a series of interlocking
                                                                                                                                                                                  spiderwebs of
                                                                                                                                                                                  > sort. The calcium carbonate needs carbonic acid to break down at
                                                                                                                                                                                  all
                                                                                                                                                                                  > other than by mechanioc means such as erosion . Coral calcium is
                                                                                                                                                                                  even
                                                                                                                                                                                  > more tightly bound, and limestone , more so upto marble which is
                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > metmorphic rock produced from limestone and it is very dense.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Coral sand on the other hand has been broken down, the latice
                                                                                                                                                                                  cracked
                                                                                                                                                                                  > andf that's why coral sand will raise the Ph but rarely over 7.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                  I use
                                                                                                                                                                                  > it since it's fantastic for root development. But that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Polymer resins of ureathanes could also breakdown so unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                  shell is
                                                                                                                                                                                  > crushed don't worry, like I said before the greater concern is
                                                                                                                                                                                  that the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > animal left inside would release toxins, but there is an easy
                                                                                                                                                                                  method for
                                                                                                                                                                                  > detection, stick your nose in, if you smell something nasty then
                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                  > pass on it, if not , don't worry.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > BTW, just for my own curiosity what shellos do you have, are they
                                                                                                                                                                                  > collected from a beach or a shell shop or gift basket?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > All the best,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Tim Walker wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I would be more worried about the shells in your tank raising
                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > hardness of the water too high.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I believe I've read in previous discussion the best way is to
                                                                                                                                                                                  lacquer
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the objects with a non toxic water
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > impermeable lacquer. Otherwise you will get chemicals leeching
                                                                                                                                                                                  into
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the water over time. Maybe not enough to kill the fish that are
                                                                                                                                                                                  in
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > there, but enough to kill any new additions to the tank from
                                                                                                                                                                                  shock at
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > a later date.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Tim
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > On 30/08/2004, at 3:04 PM, japanesegorilla05 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe
                                                                                                                                                                                  to add
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea
                                                                                                                                                                                  shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used
                                                                                                                                                                                  it for
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would
                                                                                                                                                                                  like to
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them
                                                                                                                                                                                  sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them,
                                                                                                                                                                                  would
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > this be alright?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4698 From: StarWolf Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a 12 year absence. I had some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a long time ago, but my 2 year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of fish food and turned the heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.

                                                                                                                                                                                  My point is how did you get all of your levels balanced so fast? I am still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has been set up, with rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days now. My Ph is fine, and of course I don't have ammonia problems, but the Nitrates are still a little high for me to add any fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                  ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                                  At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I recently set up a home aquarium after being away from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  for 30-ish years.  I have a 50 gal bowfront aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                  filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                  like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                  it thus far.

                                                                                                                                                                                  After letting the tank sit for about a week I put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                  and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                  for them to arrive.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4699 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm another one returning after 30 years away from the hobby.  At that time, I set up a tank, waited a day and added the fish without any problems.  The fish lived for 10 to 15 years with very few problems.  Ran a community tank, bred angels, cats, gourami, bettas, etc without ever checking the ph or anything like that.  Had a filter... none of this new stuff.. just a plain filter.  All this new stuff is overwhelming with cycle, bio this, bio that.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Soooooooooooo different!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                  Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Glub, glub, glub...

                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a 12 year absence. I had some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a long time ago, but my 2 year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of fish food and turned the heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.

                                                                                                                                                                                  My point is how did you get all of your levels balanced so fast? I am still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has been set up, with rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days now. My Ph is fine, and of course I don't have ammonia problems, but the Nitrates are still a little high for me to add any fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                  ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                                  At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I recently set up a home aquarium after being away from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  for 30-ish years.  I have a 50 gal bowfront aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                  filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                  like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                  it thus far.

                                                                                                                                                                                  After letting the tank sit for about a week I put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                  and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                  for them to arrive.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4700 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  yes, water quality has made a huge difference in the
                                                                                                                                                                                  last thirty years. where you could drink the watre,
                                                                                                                                                                                  play in it, and have pets in before, now none of the
                                                                                                                                                                                  above i necessarily safe. really sucks doesn't it?

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- wendie <wendieo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm another one returning after 30 years away from
                                                                                                                                                                                  > the hobby. At that time,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I set up a tank, waited a day and added the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > without any problems. The
                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish lived for 10 to 15 years with very few
                                                                                                                                                                                  > problems. Ran a community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > bred angels, cats, gourami, bettas, etc without ever
                                                                                                                                                                                  > checking the ph or
                                                                                                                                                                                  > anything like that. Had a filter... none of this
                                                                                                                                                                                  > new stuff.. just a plain
                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter. All this new stuff is overwhelming with
                                                                                                                                                                                  > cycle, bio this, bio that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Soooooooooooo different!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 12 year absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                  > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > long time ago, but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                  > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of
                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish food and turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > My point is how did you get all of your levels
                                                                                                                                                                                  > balanced so fast? I am
                                                                                                                                                                                  > still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my
                                                                                                                                                                                  > tank has been set up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                  > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days
                                                                                                                                                                                  > now. My Ph is fine, and of
                                                                                                                                                                                  > course I don't have ammonia problems, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrates are still a little
                                                                                                                                                                                  > high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I recently set up a home aquarium after being
                                                                                                                                                                                  > away from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront
                                                                                                                                                                                  > aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand
                                                                                                                                                                                  > for the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > like thta better than the usual coarse grave and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                  > like it better also. I put an undergravel filter
                                                                                                                                                                                  > in but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                  > it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > After letting the tank sit for about a week I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                  > and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on
                                                                                                                                                                                  > line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                  > for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4701 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  it takes a good 2- 31/2 weeks for the initial ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                  spike to happen, there is no way around it. running
                                                                                                                                                                                  for 10 days, your water should still be "perfect".
                                                                                                                                                                                  same with stan. just because there are fishin early,
                                                                                                                                                                                  does not mean they will live. they may, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                  likely, unless live bacteria is constantly being
                                                                                                                                                                                  added.
                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                  --- StarWolf <starbev@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 12 year absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                  > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > long time ago, but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                  > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of
                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish food and turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > My point is how did you get all of your levels
                                                                                                                                                                                  > balanced so fast? I am still
                                                                                                                                                                                  > waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has
                                                                                                                                                                                  > been set up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                  > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days
                                                                                                                                                                                  > now. My Ph is fine, and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > of course I don't have ammonia problems, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrates are still a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > little high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >I recently set up a home aquarium after being away
                                                                                                                                                                                  > from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront
                                                                                                                                                                                  > aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for
                                                                                                                                                                                  > the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in
                                                                                                                                                                                  > but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >After letting the tank sit for about a week I put
                                                                                                                                                                                  > some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line
                                                                                                                                                                                  > and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Stan





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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4702 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                  cloudy water is usually from a lack of beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                  adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                  non chemical approach that works better.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- molly_lec <molly_lec@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank. Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                  > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                  > tanks or that knows about " caring for children"
                                                                                                                                                                                  > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn off
                                                                                                                                                                                  > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                  > looks like a turtle or something got a bite. Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                  > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                  > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks alright
                                                                                                                                                                                  > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                  > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                  > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank package.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                  > plants and have been treating the cloudy water with
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                  > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear water
                                                                                                                                                                                  > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                  > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to my
                                                                                                                                                                                  > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4703 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: i hate ick
                                                                                                                                                                                  for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is something
                                                                                                                                                                                  wong with the water to start. i would reduce that
                                                                                                                                                                                  temperature to 83 as high temperature s can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                  stress on fish not suited for it. did you remember to
                                                                                                                                                                                  take the carbon out of the tank before traeting, as it
                                                                                                                                                                                  removes the agents from your tanks. also may be
                                                                                                                                                                                  better to use something with either copper, methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                  blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                  kill anything without a backbone, but do not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                  scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                  --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a little
                                                                                                                                                                                  > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                  > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought it
                                                                                                                                                                                  > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive been
                                                                                                                                                                                  > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                  > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i
                                                                                                                                                                                  > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                  > white spots on him now. the mono has developed some
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                  > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                  > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                  > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come off?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                  > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4704 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Wendie, Agreed, things are soooooo different now-a-days, with cycling the tank for the bio/ammonia cycle. I, too, remember how things were some 30 years ago -- although many of us always kept a check on pH, the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle was something the aquarist those days was just not aware of (nor were the store owners). Yet, somehow we all managed quite well in spite of it. I remember setting up my first community tank way back when. The tank was stocked with its full complement of fish the very next day after the tank was set up, with just the addition of a chlorine remover and making sure the temperature was right. I think most of us did that, yet we had no problems! I guess back then, it was all in the proper maintenance. By the way, I knew someone with your name who had fish some 30 years ago and dropped out of them. Can't be that small a world but is there any remote chance you come from North Jersey? SS.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4705 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: How to clean a used tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                  hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I bought a fish tank I would guess about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                  or 4 gallons, I washed ithe tank and the rocks out with water but is
                                                                                                                                                                                  there a way to clean it better and is ok? also is it ok to reuse
                                                                                                                                                                                  rocks? Would any diseases the tank may have had before die once the
                                                                                                                                                                                  rocks dry out? thanks melanie
                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4706 From: Patrick Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                        I like to read books that are 30 years or more older.  I have learned to combine the old ideas with the new ideas and get great success.  For example, newer books talk a lot about this 1 inch of fish per gallon of tank rule.  Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches of fish per gallon!  Paul is a great fan of a fishless cycle.  Most people don't hear about that until it is too late, which is sad.  Today we do have more knowledge about what makes a tank work, and fishless cycles are much better to protect fish from death. 
                                                                                                                                                                                        My last tank was cycled in 2 days.  It was simple, I just took the sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in my main aquarium.  The bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge.  I also used gravel from the main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized with bacteria.  This was the first time I really watched the cycle and there it was.  Ammonia wet up a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite went down, nitrates never came up much because at about the same time I started moving in the plants.  For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump up in days and begin to level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set time.  2.5-3.5 weeks is a good way of saying it.  Nitrites will begin to rise at that time too.  They are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why fishless cycle is better).  From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5 months without adding fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Is that confusing? :)  I suggest asking someone with a well established tank to let you borrow a small amount of gravel, but if you are like me and don't know anyone with a tank that won't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                    WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                    If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4707 From: harry perry Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms
                                                                                                                                                                                    At the top of your page there is a spell check button. Try using it, it isn't hard to use.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                    paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is something
                                                                                                                                                                                    wong with the water to start.  i would reduce that
                                                                                                                                                                                    temperature to 83 as high temperature s can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                    stress on fish not suited for it.  did you remember to
                                                                                                                                                                                    take the carbon out of the tank before traeting, as it
                                                                                                                                                                                    removes the agents from your tanks.  also may be
                                                                                                                                                                                    better to use something with either copper, methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                    blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                    kill anything without a backbone, but do not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                    scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a little
                                                                                                                                                                                    > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                    > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought it
                                                                                                                                                                                    > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive been
                                                                                                                                                                                    > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                    > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                    > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                    > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i
                                                                                                                                                                                    > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                    > white spots on him now. the mono has developed some
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                    > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                    > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                    > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come off?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                    > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >



                                                                                                                                                                                               
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                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4708 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Immersing a 3 or 4 gallon tank in a tub of water with 1/2 cup of Clorox (regular scent) added, and letting it sit overnight will clean and disinfect the tank much better. Thorough rinsing is a then must. The rocks, gravel or anything else that was once in a diseased tank will not necessarily be disease-free just by drying. There are some protozoan diseases, like Ick, which form cysts that settle into the gravel. Boiling rocks and gravel will get rid of that. Filling the tank with water (with sand and gravel in it) and turning the heater thermostat up to 86 o and letting it sit for at least 48 hours (or more) will also get rid of these parasites as they will be forced to complete their life cycle in the absense of a host (fish) and die out as a result of it. SS
                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4709 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      The first thing I did was get a couple of catalogs to look over what's
                                                                                                                                                                                      out there as far as filters systems, tanks, etc.  I noticed that there
                                                                                                                                                                                      are several types of products which will help in cycling a tank.  Are any
                                                                                                                                                                                      of these any good?  At this point I have several betta tanks going with
                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel which I plan to use once I move and start my set up.  I also have
                                                                                                                                                                                      thought about putting a small filter unit on the betta set ups and then
                                                                                                                                                                                      move it to the tank itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Also what about gravel?  I see there's a couple that neutralize the ph..
                                                                                                                                                                                      Are they any good?  I want something to give the plants a boost but not
                                                                                                                                                                                      cloud up the tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      While we're at it... all glass aquariums vs.. the new plastic type.  Which
                                                                                                                                                                                      is better?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info

                                                                                                                                                                                          I like to read books that are 30 years or more older.  I have learned to combine the old ideas with the new ideas and get great success.  For example, newer books talk a lot about this 1 inch of fish per gallon of tank rule.  Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches of fish per gallon!  Paul is a great fan of a fishless cycle.  Most people don't hear about that until it is too late, which is sad.  Today we do have more knowledge about what makes a tank work, and fishless cycles are much better to protect fish from death. 
                                                                                                                                                                                          My last tank was cycled in 2 days.  It was simple, I just took the sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in my main aquarium.  The bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge.  I also used gravel from the main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized with bacteria.  This was the first time I really watched the cycle and there it was.  Ammonia wet up a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite went down, nitrates never came up much because at about the same time I started moving in the plants.  For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump up in days and begin to level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set time.  2.5-3.5 weeks is a good way of saying it.  Nitrites will begin to rise at that time too.  They are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why fishless cycle is better).  From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5 months without adding fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Is that confusing? :)  I suggest asking someone with a well established tank to let you borrow a small amount of gravel, but if you are like me and don't know anyone with a tank that won't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.


                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4710 From: harry perry Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: To Wendie on tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      We really do need to know what your aspirations are. Is this to be a planted tank? What kind of fish do you like? Leaning toward a small or large tank? There are many options for cycling a tank. Don't be intimidated by our resident "experts" Just jump in and do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                      wendie <wendieo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      The first thing I did was get a couple of catalogs to look over what's
                                                                                                                                                                                      out there as far as filters systems, tanks, etc.  I noticed that there
                                                                                                                                                                                      are several types of products which will help in cycling a tank.  Are any
                                                                                                                                                                                      of these any good?  At this point I have several betta tanks going with
                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel which I plan to use once I move and start my set up.  I also have
                                                                                                                                                                                      thought about putting a small filter unit on the betta set ups and then
                                                                                                                                                                                      move it to the tank itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Also what about gravel?  I see there's a couple that neutralize the ph..
                                                                                                                                                                                      Are they any good?  I want something to give the plants a boost but not
                                                                                                                                                                                      cloud up the tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      While we're at it... all glass aquariums vs.. the new plastic type.  Which
                                                                                                                                                                                      is better?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info

                                                                                                                                                                                          I like to read books that are 30 years or more older.  I have learned to combine the old ideas with the new ideas and get great success.  For example, newer books talk a lot about this 1 inch of fish per gallon of tank rule.  Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches of fish per gallon!  Paul is a great fan of a fishless cycle.  Most people don't hear about that until it is too late, which is sad.  Today we do have more knowledge about what makes a tank work, and fishless cycles are much better to protect fish from death. 
                                                                                                                                                                                          My last tank was cycled in 2 days.  It was simple, I just took the sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in my main aquarium.  The bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge.  I also used gravel from the main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized with bacteria.  This was the first time I really watched the cycle and there it was.  Ammonia wet up a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite went down, nitrates never came up much because at about the same time I started moving in the plants.  For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump up in days and begin to level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set time.  2.5-3.5 weeks is a good way of saying it.  Nitrites will begin to rise at that time too.  They are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why fishless cycle is better).  From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5 months without adding fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Is that confusing? :)  I suggest asking someone with a well established tank to let you borrow a small amount of gravel, but if you are like me and don't know anyone with a tank that won't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.


                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4711 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd did this same thing a few months back,  I took some bleach and made a 1 to 10 solution and cleaned the tank inside and out.  I then took the rocks and tossed them in an old pot and water and boiled them for like 20 minutes.  Let them cool and then set up my tank.  Did a fishless cycle and was ready to rock and roll.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] How to clean a used tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                      hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                         I bought a fish tank I would guess about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                      or 4 gallons, I washed ithe tank and the rocks out with water but is
                                                                                                                                                                                      there a way to clean it better and is ok? also is it ok to reuse
                                                                                                                                                                                      rocks? Would any diseases the tank may have had before die once the
                                                                                                                                                                                      rocks dry out? thanks melanie



                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4712 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: To Wendie on tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Well I'm not sure just yet.  I am looking toward a 30 gallon tank with plants.  I definitely want to have kuhli loaches, a couple of corys and perhaps about six gold honey drawf gouramis.  I've thought about switching the gouramis for cherry barbs or even angels but I've bred so many angels that I don't want to go that way again.  I want to stay with something fairly small.  The kuhlis are definite if I can find them and I've got a couple sources lined up.  I've also toyed with the idea of a tetra community with the kuhlis and corys.  Say perhaps lemon tetras or something a tad larger than neons.  I love the neons but have read some horror stories about them.    It's still a bit up in the air but I'm sticking to something fairly simple.  A nice planting - perhaps swords, java fern, something to form a carpet.  Plenty of hiding spots for the loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 7:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] To Wendie on tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      We really do need to know what your aspirations are. Is this to be a planted tank? What kind of fish do you like? Leaning toward a small or large tank? There are many options for cycling a tank. Don't be intimidated by our resident "experts" Just jump in and do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                      wendie <wendieo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      The first thing I did was get a couple of catalogs to look over what's
                                                                                                                                                                                      out there as far as filters systems, tanks, etc.  I noticed that there
                                                                                                                                                                                      are several types of products which will help in cycling a tank.  Are any
                                                                                                                                                                                      of these any good?  At this point I have several betta tanks going with
                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel which I plan to use once I move and start my set up.  I also have
                                                                                                                                                                                      thought about putting a small filter unit on the betta set ups and then
                                                                                                                                                                                      move it to the tank itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Also what about gravel?  I see there's a couple that neutralize the ph..
                                                                                                                                                                                      Are they any good?  I want something to give the plants a boost but not
                                                                                                                                                                                      cloud up the tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      While we're at it... all glass aquariums vs.. the new plastic type.  Which
                                                                                                                                                                                      is better?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info

                                                                                                                                                                                          I like to read books that are 30 years or more older.  I have learned to combine the old ideas with the new ideas and get great success.  For example, newer books talk a lot about this 1 inch of fish per gallon of tank rule.  Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches of fish per gallon!  Paul is a great fan of a fishless cycle.  Most people don't hear about that until it is too late, which is sad.  Today we do have more knowledge about what makes a tank work, and fishless cycles are much better to protect fish from death. 
                                                                                                                                                                                          My last tank was cycled in 2 days.  It was simple, I just took the sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in my main aquarium.  The bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge.  I also used gravel from the main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized with bacteria.  This was the first time I really watched the cycle and there it was.  Ammonia wet up a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite went down, nitrates never came up much because at about the same time I started moving in the plants.  For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump up in days and begin to level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set time.  2.5-3.5 weeks is a good way of saying it.  Nitrites will begin to rise at that time too.  They are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why fishless cycle is better).  From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5 months without adding fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Is that confusing? :)  I suggest asking someone with a well established tank to let you borrow a small amount of gravel, but if you are like me and don't know anyone with a tank that won't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 20, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.


                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4713 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 9/4/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                      Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                      Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                      Saturday September 4, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                      This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                      City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                      Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4714 From: sunil kamath Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      Reg Acrylic Vs Glass : Posting a message from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      archive !

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi there,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Having had both I will try to give you some pros and
                                                                                                                                                                                      cons. Glass
                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks are heavier, harder to drill for specific
                                                                                                                                                                                      filtration, break
                                                                                                                                                                                      easier but in general reamin in good condition for
                                                                                                                                                                                      many many years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Acrylic is initially more transparent than glass,
                                                                                                                                                                                      however they do
                                                                                                                                                                                      scratch easily and can be stained by certain chemicals
                                                                                                                                                                                      such as some
                                                                                                                                                                                      ICH medications. They are lighter and can withstand
                                                                                                                                                                                      quite a blow
                                                                                                                                                                                      should you have kids in the house. But in the long run
                                                                                                                                                                                      they do tend
                                                                                                                                                                                      to get less and less appealing as the years go by and
                                                                                                                                                                                      eventually your
                                                                                                                                                                                      scratched up tank starts to look like it needs a good
                                                                                                                                                                                      "face lift".
                                                                                                                                                                                      Cleaning an acrylic tank requires care while you can
                                                                                                                                                                                      safely attack
                                                                                                                                                                                      stubborn algae on glass tanks with a razor blade. In
                                                                                                                                                                                      the end I
                                                                                                                                                                                      decided to change everything to glass and have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      happy with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      The cost difference is also a huge factor, acrylic is
                                                                                                                                                                                      still very
                                                                                                                                                                                      expensive considering the shorter lifespan.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Seeing we're on the topic of buying the right tank
                                                                                                                                                                                      first time round,
                                                                                                                                                                                      I would suggest a 50 gallon or 75 gallon as these
                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks have better
                                                                                                                                                                                      overall proportions. 55 gallon tanks are long tall and
                                                                                                                                                                                      skinny and
                                                                                                                                                                                      harder to acchieve a good perspective of depth. I am
                                                                                                                                                                                      currently
                                                                                                                                                                                      changing my 55 gallon tank to a 75 for this very
                                                                                                                                                                                      reason.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hope that helps
                                                                                                                                                                                      Giancarlo Podio


                                                                                                                                                                                      =====




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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4715 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 373
                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 9/1/2004 10:52:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also added two level tabelspoons of aquarium salt to the 10-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                      to make it brackish, since I read puffers adn mollies like this...I
                                                                                                                                                                                      also do 20 percent water changes each week...should I be adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                      to the new water?  If so, how much per gallon since 2 tablespoons is
                                                                                                                                                                                      for 10 gallon...


                                                                                                                                                                                      You're really following the aquarium salt instructions for a regular freshwater tropical tank. "General tonic and stress reducer : Add one rounded tablespoon for every 5 gallons of aquarium water."

                                                                                                                                                                                      You should be adding salt to the new water, but ONLY enough for the new water. For example, when I do my water changes in my 15 gallon tank every week, I end up putting in 5 gallons of new (treated with chlorine/chloramine remover) water. (That's just what works for me) So I put a little over a tablespoon of the salt in a cup (that I use just for aquarium use ... it's the cup my daughter's betta came home in)  and set that cup in the bottom of the tank, and then add the new water. My mollies and platies enjoy swimming into the cup and "sipping" at the salt as it dissolves into the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Honestly, it's easier to work in multiples of five, LOL (I'm so lazy when it comes to math) but I think you could probably do 1/2 teaspoon for a gallon, since that is what my package says to use for goldfish bowls. (I guess that was the only container they could think of that would be that small?)

                                                                                                                                                                                      As far as your aquarium being brackish ... I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that adding a little salt doesn't make it a brackish tank ... I think the water level itself has to be a lot lower than in a regular tropical aquarium so that it will better resemble creeks etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now if you'll excuse me, I have to take the pork rinds away from my cats again. :-D
                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                      CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                                                                      ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

                                                                                                                                                                                      my LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/

                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4716 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      glass is more scratch resistant, and heavier, ie
                                                                                                                                                                                      harder to break or knock over. acrylic is lighter and
                                                                                                                                                                                      has less seams, ie less places to leak and easier to
                                                                                                                                                                                      move. basically means personal preference.
                                                                                                                                                                                      personally i like glass because it is much much
                                                                                                                                                                                      harderto scratch, and i have never had one leak. in
                                                                                                                                                                                      addition, glass does not bow outward over time, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      does not get distorted when running reef grade
                                                                                                                                                                                      lighting (from the heat)
                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- wendie <wendieo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      > The first thing I did was get a couple of catalogs
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to look over what's
                                                                                                                                                                                      > out there as far as filters systems, tanks, etc. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > noticed that there
                                                                                                                                                                                      > are several types of products which will help in
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cycling a tank. Are any
                                                                                                                                                                                      > of these any good? At this point I have several
                                                                                                                                                                                      > betta tanks going with
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel which I plan to use once I move and start my
                                                                                                                                                                                      > set up. I also have
                                                                                                                                                                                      > thought about putting a small filter unit on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > betta set ups and then
                                                                                                                                                                                      > move it to the tank itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Also what about gravel? I see there's a couple that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > neutralize the ph..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Are they any good? I want something to give the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plants a boost but not
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cloud up the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > While we're at it... all glass aquariums vs.. the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > new plastic type. Which
                                                                                                                                                                                      > is better?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Glub, glub, glub... -
                                                                                                                                                                                      > general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I like to read books that are 30 years
                                                                                                                                                                                      > or more older. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                      > learned to combine the old ideas with the new ideas
                                                                                                                                                                                      > and get great success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > For example, newer books talk a lot about this 1
                                                                                                                                                                                      > inch of fish per gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank rule. Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches
                                                                                                                                                                                      > of fish per gallon!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul is a great fan of a fishless cycle. Most
                                                                                                                                                                                      > people don't hear about that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > until it is too late, which is sad. Today we do
                                                                                                                                                                                      > have more knowledge about
                                                                                                                                                                                      > what makes a tank work, and fishless cycles are much
                                                                                                                                                                                      > better to protect fish
                                                                                                                                                                                      > from death.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My last tank was cycled in 2 days. It
                                                                                                                                                                                      > was simple, I just took
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in
                                                                                                                                                                                      > my main aquarium. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                      > used gravel from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized
                                                                                                                                                                                      > with bacteria. This was
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the first time I really watched the cycle and there
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was. Ammonia wet up
                                                                                                                                                                                      > a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                      > went down, nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                      > never came up much because at about the same time I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > started moving in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plants. For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump
                                                                                                                                                                                      > up in days and begin to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set
                                                                                                                                                                                      > time. 2.5-3.5 weeks is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > good way of saying it. Nitrites will begin to rise
                                                                                                                                                                                      > at that time too. They
                                                                                                                                                                                      > are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fishless cycle is better).
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5
                                                                                                                                                                                      > months without adding
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Is that confusing? :) I suggest asking
                                                                                                                                                                                      > someone with a well
                                                                                                                                                                                      > established tank to let you borrow a small amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel, but if you are
                                                                                                                                                                                      > like me and don't know anyone with a tank that won't
                                                                                                                                                                                      > help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                      > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                      > lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                      > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only
                                                                                                                                                                                      > kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you find something to help me correct
                                                                                                                                                                                      > myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4717 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms
                                                                                                                                                                                      why do you try to piss people off? this isnot a
                                                                                                                                                                                      formal arena, requiring perfect typing. 90% of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      posting on here contain errors, but i suppose that you
                                                                                                                                                                                      have never made a spelling mistake. KMA harry
                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      > At the top of your page there is a spell check
                                                                                                                                                                                      > button. Try using it, it isn't hard to use.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                      > something
                                                                                                                                                                                      > wong with the water to start. i would reduce that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > temperature to 83 as high temperature s can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                      > stress on fish not suited for it. did you remember
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > take the carbon out of the tank before traeting, as
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it
                                                                                                                                                                                      > removes the agents from your tanks. also may be
                                                                                                                                                                                      > better to use something with either copper,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                      > blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper
                                                                                                                                                                                      > derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                      > kill anything without a backbone, but do not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                      > scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > little
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought it
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive been
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > white spots on him now. the mono has developed
                                                                                                                                                                                      > some
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come off?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4718 From: paul helms Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      right on patrick, you might want to us ethe spell
                                                                                                                                                                                      check at the top of the page before harry starts to
                                                                                                                                                                                      bitch at you. you had 1 whole spelling error in your
                                                                                                                                                                                      posting. lmao
                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Patrick <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      > I like to read books that are 30 years or more
                                                                                                                                                                                      > older. I have learned to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > combine the old ideas with the new ideas and get
                                                                                                                                                                                      > great success. For example
                                                                                                                                                                                      > newer books talk a lot about this 1 inch of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                      > per gallon of tank rule.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches of fish per
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gallon! Paul is a great
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fan of a fishless cycle. Most people don't hear
                                                                                                                                                                                      > about that until it is too
                                                                                                                                                                                      > late, which is sad. Today we do have more knowledge
                                                                                                                                                                                      > about what makes a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                      > work, and fishless cycles are much better to protect
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish from death.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My last tank was cycled in 2 days. It was
                                                                                                                                                                                      > simple, I just took the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in my
                                                                                                                                                                                      > main aquarium. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                      > used gravel from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized
                                                                                                                                                                                      > with bacteria. This was
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the first time I really watched the cycle and there
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was. Ammonia wet up
                                                                                                                                                                                      > a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                      > went down, nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                      > never came up much because at about the same time I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > started moving in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plants. For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump
                                                                                                                                                                                      > up in days and begin to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set
                                                                                                                                                                                      > time. 2.5-3.5 weeks is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > good way of saying it. Nitrites will begin to rise
                                                                                                                                                                                      > at that time too. They
                                                                                                                                                                                      > are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fishless cycle is better).
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5
                                                                                                                                                                                      > months without adding
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Is that confusing? :) I suggest asking someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      > with a well established
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank to let you borrow a small amount of gravel, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      > if you are like me and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > don't know anyone with a tank that won't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                      > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                      > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                      > or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > please tell me and provide a citation.




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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4719 From: wendie Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      I've heard that about the acrylic - bowing out. I know in the past
                                                                                                                                                                                      I might have had a leak problem with glass but it usually sealed itself
                                                                                                                                                                                      up in quick order. In handling the small mini bows for the betta I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                      not quite comfortable with them. I know the glass are heavy - lordy
                                                                                                                                                                                      I can remember lugging them around years ago to clean them.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If the acrylic bows out, does the hood continue to fit or is there
                                                                                                                                                                                      enough give to accommodate that? Is it slight or something you can
                                                                                                                                                                                      really notice? I'm hoping that once it's set up it will remain running
                                                                                                                                                                                      for years. The only reasons I broke mine down was to move them to another
                                                                                                                                                                                      house while I went away on vacation. Packed the fish up, and moved
                                                                                                                                                                                      everything
                                                                                                                                                                                      50 miles away.. set them up and then moved them back in three months. Never
                                                                                                                                                                                      had a problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wendie

                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Glub, glub, glub... -
                                                                                                                                                                                      general cycle info


                                                                                                                                                                                      glass is more scratch resistant, and heavier, ie
                                                                                                                                                                                      harder to break or knock over. acrylic is lighter and
                                                                                                                                                                                      has less seams, ie less places to leak and easier to
                                                                                                                                                                                      move. basically means personal preference.
                                                                                                                                                                                      personally i like glass because it is much much
                                                                                                                                                                                      harderto scratch, and i have never had one leak. in
                                                                                                                                                                                      addition, glass does not bow outward over time, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      does not get distorted when running reef grade
                                                                                                                                                                                      lighting (from the heat)
                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- wendie <wendieo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      > The first thing I did was get a couple of catalogs
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to look over what's
                                                                                                                                                                                      > out there as far as filters systems, tanks, etc. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > noticed that there
                                                                                                                                                                                      > are several types of products which will help in
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cycling a tank. Are any
                                                                                                                                                                                      > of these any good? At this point I have several
                                                                                                                                                                                      > betta tanks going with
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel which I plan to use once I move and start my
                                                                                                                                                                                      > set up. I also have
                                                                                                                                                                                      > thought about putting a small filter unit on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > betta set ups and then
                                                                                                                                                                                      > move it to the tank itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Also what about gravel? I see there's a couple that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > neutralize the ph..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Are they any good? I want something to give the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plants a boost but not
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cloud up the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > While we're at it... all glass aquariums vs.. the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > new plastic type. Which
                                                                                                                                                                                      > is better?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Patrick [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Glub, glub, glub... -
                                                                                                                                                                                      > general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I like to read books that are 30 years
                                                                                                                                                                                      > or more older. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                      > learned to combine the old ideas with the new ideas
                                                                                                                                                                                      > and get great success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > For example, newer books talk a lot about this 1
                                                                                                                                                                                      > inch of fish per gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank rule. Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches
                                                                                                                                                                                      > of fish per gallon!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul is a great fan of a fishless cycle. Most
                                                                                                                                                                                      > people don't hear about that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > until it is too late, which is sad. Today we do
                                                                                                                                                                                      > have more knowledge about
                                                                                                                                                                                      > what makes a tank work, and fishless cycles are much
                                                                                                                                                                                      > better to protect fish
                                                                                                                                                                                      > from death.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My last tank was cycled in 2 days. It
                                                                                                                                                                                      > was simple, I just took
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in
                                                                                                                                                                                      > my main aquarium. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                      > used gravel from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized
                                                                                                                                                                                      > with bacteria. This was
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the first time I really watched the cycle and there
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was. Ammonia wet up
                                                                                                                                                                                      > a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                      > went down, nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                      > never came up much because at about the same time I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > started moving in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plants. For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump
                                                                                                                                                                                      > up in days and begin to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set
                                                                                                                                                                                      > time. 2.5-3.5 weeks is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > good way of saying it. Nitrites will begin to rise
                                                                                                                                                                                      > at that time too. They
                                                                                                                                                                                      > are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fishless cycle is better).
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5
                                                                                                                                                                                      > months without adding
                                                                                                                                                                                      > fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Is that confusing? :) I suggest asking
                                                                                                                                                                                      > someone with a well
                                                                                                                                                                                      > established tank to let you borrow a small amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel, but if you are
                                                                                                                                                                                      > like me and don't know anyone with a tank that won't
                                                                                                                                                                                      > help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      > albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                      > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                      > lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > KH 20, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                      > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only
                                                                                                                                                                                      > kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you find something to help me correct
                                                                                                                                                                                      > myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4720 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ya, I thought this was a bit over the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                      This coming from a former spelling bee champ.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4721 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sounds good I'll do it. thanks


                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'd did this same thing a few months back, I took some bleach and
                                                                                                                                                                                      made a 1 to 10 solution and cleaned the tank inside and out. I then
                                                                                                                                                                                      took the rocks and tossed them in an old pot and water and boiled them
                                                                                                                                                                                      for like 20 minutes. Let them cool and then set up my tank. Did a
                                                                                                                                                                                      fishless cycle and was ready to rock and roll.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4722 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: How to clean a used tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                      ok, thanks that's good to know that just drying up won't kill things.
                                                                                                                                                                                      and I'll try the clorox solution.


                                                                                                                                                                                      > Immersing a 3 or 4 gallon tank in a tub of water with 1/2 cup of Clorox
                                                                                                                                                                                      > (regular scent) added, and letting it sit overnight will clean and
                                                                                                                                                                                      disinfect the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank much better. Thorough rinsing is a then must. The rocks, gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                      or anything
                                                                                                                                                                                      > else that was once in a diseased tank will not necessarily be
                                                                                                                                                                                      disease-free
                                                                                                                                                                                      > just by drying. There are some protozoan diseases, like Ick, which
                                                                                                                                                                                      form cysts
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that settle into the gravel. Boiling rocks and gravel will get rid
                                                                                                                                                                                      of that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Filling the tank with water (with sand and gravel in it) and turning
                                                                                                                                                                                      the heater
                                                                                                                                                                                      > thermostat up to 86 o and letting it sit for at least 48 hours (or
                                                                                                                                                                                      more) will
                                                                                                                                                                                      > also get rid of these parasites as they will be forced to complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      their life
                                                                                                                                                                                      > cycle in the absense of a host (fish) and die out as a result of it. SS
                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4723 From: Patrick Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                            My 1 gallon acrylic tank bows out a little, but it is small and there isn't enough room to make the lid not fit.  Larger tanks might bow more and cause the lid not to fit.  I don't think I've seen it yet, but acrylic tanks are supposed to be better at holding in heat at the same thickness as glass.  It scratches easily, but it is easy to fix with the right tools.
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                        WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                        If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                        I've heard that about the acrylic - bowing out.  I know in the past
                                                                                                                                                                                        I might have had a leak problem with glass but it usually sealed itself
                                                                                                                                                                                        up in quick order.  In handling the small mini bows for the betta I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                        not quite comfortable with them.  I know the glass are heavy - lordy
                                                                                                                                                                                        I can remember lugging them around years ago to clean them.

                                                                                                                                                                                        If the acrylic bows out, does the hood continue to fit or is there
                                                                                                                                                                                        enough give to accommodate that?  Is it slight or something you can
                                                                                                                                                                                        really notice?  I'm hoping that once it's set up it will remain running
                                                                                                                                                                                        for years.  The only reasons I broke mine down was to move them to another
                                                                                                                                                                                        house while I went away on vacation.  Packed the fish up, and moved
                                                                                                                                                                                        everything
                                                                                                                                                                                        50 miles away.. set them up and then moved them back in three months.  Never
                                                                                                                                                                                        had a problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4724 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 9/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 374
                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 9/1/2004 11:19:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                        Apparantly, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                        thing the snail killer DIDN'T kill...was the snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm having that problem as well. I went (as a last resort) and bought Had A Snail, and used it following the package directions, It didn't work, so I figured "well maybe I should have taken the filter out" ... and so after I did my water change on Sunday I tried again, after removing my filter cartridge. It still didn't work.

                                                                                                                                                                                        It didn't kill anything at all in my aquarium, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                        CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

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                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4725 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        Well trying to find out the easiest way to lower and maintain pH in my planted tank. My problem is my tap waters pH is 8 with hardness around 12 which is great for my african cichlids but not much else. What i want to find out is how can I lower my pH and soften the water without having to use chemical additives. Media i can add to filter, driftwood etc. I know driftwood will soften the water but don't know about the pH. How well does peat in the filter work. I would prefer an alternatives to chemicals as accidental spikes can occur.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4726 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        Peat in the filter does work well, as in addition to lowering the pH, it also reduces the hardness, thereby reducing your water's buffering capacity and enabling it to stabilize at a lower pH without bouncing back up. You could use white vinegar to lower the pH as well; in actuality, vinegar is really diluted acetic acid -- this converts all CO3 to HCO3 and does reduce the pH. This may be too "chemical" for your use as you said you'd rather stay away from chemicals, but then, everything in this world is chemical (organic or not) whether it is an element or a compound. An alternate method of reducing the pH is with crushed Lava Rock in the filter. Its found at flower/greenhouse outlets and is used for certain Orchids. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4727 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't understand, I responded to your post and the other posts also
                                                                                                                                                                                        Wed afternoon, but none of them posted and I actually wrote quite a
                                                                                                                                                                                        bit too. Since my post posted last night I can only presume that it
                                                                                                                                                                                        was Yahoo's fault this afternoon. I'm sorry to all who posted because
                                                                                                                                                                                        I did in fact post back to everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyway I wrote that I'm not really sure that all my levels are stable
                                                                                                                                                                                        yet. But the fish seem to be thriving so I suspect everything is
                                                                                                                                                                                        going well.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The only things I added to the water was the chlorine reducer and the
                                                                                                                                                                                        Blackwater tonic. I like the Blkackwater tonic, I used to use it 30
                                                                                                                                                                                        years ago, I'm surprized that its still on the market. I also put in
                                                                                                                                                                                        a water softener pillow and adjusted the ph a bit lower. And I added
                                                                                                                                                                                        some zeolite rocks to the filter bag.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Today I took the water over to PetSmart again today and they tested
                                                                                                                                                                                        it for me:

                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrate 20 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrite 2 mg/L
                                                                                                                                                                                        Cl none and NH4 about .1ppm

                                                                                                                                                                                        So the nitrite level is a bit high but I suppose that's part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                        cycling, everything else looks ok.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The fish look happy, I'm feeding them Micropelets and occasional
                                                                                                                                                                                        defrosted frozen food. I like those micropelets, they are perfect for
                                                                                                                                                                                        the neons tetras. I actually think I'm overfeeding them, its hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                        feed just a few small fish in a big tank so I'm siphoning a bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                        bottom water to pick up debris every other day.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan






                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, StarWolf
                                                                                                                                                                                        <starbev@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a 12 year absence.
                                                                                                                                                                                        I had
                                                                                                                                                                                        > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a long time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                        but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                        > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of fish food and
                                                                                                                                                                                        turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > My point is how did you get all of your levels balanced so fast? I
                                                                                                                                                                                        am still
                                                                                                                                                                                        > waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has been set up,
                                                                                                                                                                                        with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days now. My Ph is
                                                                                                                                                                                        fine, and
                                                                                                                                                                                        > of course I don't have ammonia problems, but the Nitrates are still
                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > little high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >I recently set up a home aquarium after being away from tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for the substrate,
                                                                                                                                                                                        I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in but am not
                                                                                                                                                                                        using
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >After letting the tank sit for about a week I put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4728 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        Well nothing to do but wait and see. Ammonia might rise and peak but
                                                                                                                                                                                        its the height of the peak that is critical. I'm taking some water
                                                                                                                                                                                        over to the petshop today for another water test and keeping my eye
                                                                                                                                                                                        on it. I've also added some zeolite crystals to the filter bag.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > it takes a good 2- 31/2 weeks for the initial ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                        > spike to happen, there is no way around it. running
                                                                                                                                                                                        > for 10 days, your water should still be "perfect".
                                                                                                                                                                                        > same with stan. just because there are fishin early,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > does not mean they will live. they may, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                        > likely, unless live bacteria is constantly being
                                                                                                                                                                                        > added.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- StarWolf <starbev@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 12 year absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > long time ago, but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish food and turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My point is how did you get all of your levels
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > balanced so fast? I am still
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > been set up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > now. My Ph is fine, and
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of course I don't have ammonia problems, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrates are still a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > little high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >I recently set up a home aquarium after being away
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >After letting the tank sit for about a week I put
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4729 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub... - general cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                        I goit the water tested again at the PetSmart
                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrate 2.0 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrite 2 mg/L
                                                                                                                                                                                        Cl none
                                                                                                                                                                                        NH4 .1 ppm

                                                                                                                                                                                        So the nitrite is a bit high, this is probaably the natural cycle.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I like to read books that are 30 years or more older. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                        learned to
                                                                                                                                                                                        > combine the old ideas with the new ideas and get great success.
                                                                                                                                                                                        For example
                                                                                                                                                                                        > newer books talk a lot about this 1 inch of fish per gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                        tank rule.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, a 30+ year old book says 3 inches of fish per gallon! Paul
                                                                                                                                                                                        is a great
                                                                                                                                                                                        > fan of a fishless cycle. Most people don't hear about that until
                                                                                                                                                                                        it is too
                                                                                                                                                                                        > late, which is sad. Today we do have more knowledge about what
                                                                                                                                                                                        makes a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                        > work, and fishless cycles are much better to protect fish from
                                                                                                                                                                                        death.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > My last tank was cycled in 2 days. It was simple, I just took
                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filer I was going to use and cycled it in my main aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                        The
                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria in the filter colonized the sponge. I also used gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                        from the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > main 29 gallon tank that was also well colonized with bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                        This was
                                                                                                                                                                                        > the first time I really watched the cycle and there it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Ammonia wet up
                                                                                                                                                                                        > a little, then nitrites, ammonia went down, nitrite went down,
                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                        > never came up much because at about the same time I started moving
                                                                                                                                                                                        in the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants. For a brand new tank, the ammonia will jump up in days and
                                                                                                                                                                                        begin to
                                                                                                                                                                                        > level off after about 3 weeks, but there is no set time. 2.5-3.5
                                                                                                                                                                                        weeks is a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > good way of saying it. Nitrites will begin to rise at that time
                                                                                                                                                                                        too. They
                                                                                                                                                                                        > are bad for a fish's gills (another reason why fishless cycle is
                                                                                                                                                                                        better).
                                                                                                                                                                                        > From beginning to 0 ammonia and nitrite takes 1-1.5 months without
                                                                                                                                                                                        adding
                                                                                                                                                                                        > fritz zyme or bio spira.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is that confusing? :) I suggest asking someone with a well
                                                                                                                                                                                        established
                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank to let you borrow a small amount of gravel, but if you are
                                                                                                                                                                                        like me and
                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know anyone with a tank that won't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                        juli
                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                        ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                        provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4730 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        Heh, I know, it's like total techy-time if you want to fret about
                                                                                                                                                                                        water chemistry and all the gadgets that are available. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                        keeping the water clean and frequent parital changes is probably
                                                                                                                                                                                        still what works best.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The real huge difference today though is in all the salt water
                                                                                                                                                                                        goodies that are available today. My definitiion of a salt water
                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium: A big hole in the living room into which you keep pouring
                                                                                                                                                                                        money.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                        <wendieo@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm another one returning after 30 years away from the hobby. At
                                                                                                                                                                                        that time,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I set up a tank, waited a day and added the fish without any
                                                                                                                                                                                        problems. The
                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish lived for 10 to 15 years with very few problems. Ran a
                                                                                                                                                                                        community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > bred angels, cats, gourami, bettas, etc without ever checking the
                                                                                                                                                                                        ph or
                                                                                                                                                                                        > anything like that. Had a filter... none of this new stuff.. just
                                                                                                                                                                                        a plain
                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter. All this new stuff is overwhelming with cycle, bio this,
                                                                                                                                                                                        bio that.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Soooooooooooo different!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a 12 year
                                                                                                                                                                                        absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                        > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a long time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                        but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                        > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of fish food and
                                                                                                                                                                                        turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > My point is how did you get all of your levels balanced so fast?
                                                                                                                                                                                        I am
                                                                                                                                                                                        > still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has been set
                                                                                                                                                                                        up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days now. My Ph is
                                                                                                                                                                                        fine, and of
                                                                                                                                                                                        > course I don't have ammonia problems, but the Nitrates are still a
                                                                                                                                                                                        little
                                                                                                                                                                                        > high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I recently set up a home aquarium after being away from
                                                                                                                                                                                        tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        > for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront aquarium with a
                                                                                                                                                                                        Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for the
                                                                                                                                                                                        substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I think the
                                                                                                                                                                                        plants
                                                                                                                                                                                        > like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in but am not
                                                                                                                                                                                        using
                                                                                                                                                                                        > it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > After letting the tank sit for about a week I put some neon
                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                        > and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line and am
                                                                                                                                                                                        waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                        > for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                        --------
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                        > Service.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4731 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not sure that the water quality today is generally all that
                                                                                                                                                                                        different than it was 30 yeats ago, The real major differente is that
                                                                                                                                                                                        roday you've got all the HP intstruments that can measure ppb that
                                                                                                                                                                                        didn't exist 30 years ago. So while the water quality hasn't changed
                                                                                                                                                                                        all tha much our knowledge of what's in it has. We still use the
                                                                                                                                                                                        same copper soldered pipes but today we can measure the disolved lead
                                                                                                                                                                                        from the solder whereas we couln't do that 30 years ago. So much of
                                                                                                                                                                                        the water tasted bad back then as it does today, just that we drank
                                                                                                                                                                                        more coca cola back then because we didn't know what was in coca cola
                                                                                                                                                                                        at that time. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > yes, water quality has made a huge difference in the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > last thirty years. where you could drink the watre,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > play in it, and have pets in before, now none of the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > above i necessarily safe. really sucks doesn't it?
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- wendie <wendieo@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm another one returning after 30 years away from
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the hobby. At that time,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I set up a tank, waited a day and added the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > without any problems. The
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish lived for 10 to 15 years with very few
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > problems. Ran a community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bred angels, cats, gourami, bettas, etc without ever
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > checking the ph or
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anything like that. Had a filter... none of this
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > new stuff.. just a plain
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter. All this new stuff is overwhelming with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cycle, bio this, bio that.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Soooooooooooo different!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 12 year absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > long time ago, but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish food and turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My point is how did you get all of your levels
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > balanced so fast? I am
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tank has been set up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > now. My Ph is fine, and of
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > course I don't have ammonia problems, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrates are still a little
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I recently set up a home aquarium after being
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > away from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > like thta better than the usual coarse grave and
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > like it better also. I put an undergravel filter
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > After letting the tank sit for about a week I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4732 From: molly_lec Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                        these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                        filtration system.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                        the young female Koi.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank You again,

                                                                                                                                                                                        Molly





                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > cloudy water is usually from a lack of beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                        > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                        > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank. Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tanks or that knows about " caring for children"
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn off
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite. Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks alright
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank package.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear water
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to my
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4733 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Star,

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not sure they are balanced to tell you the truth. But the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        are doing ok so far so I'm just waiting it out before I add
                                                                                                                                                                                        any "quality" fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I've still got my head in the past and haven't kept up with the
                                                                                                                                                                                        latest technology for fishkeeping. I am amazed at how some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                        fish have changed over the past 30 years though, like the discus for
                                                                                                                                                                                        instance that now are avaliable in striking colors. I'm an anglefish
                                                                                                                                                                                        man myself.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a dislike of using chemicals in the tank, so if I can do
                                                                                                                                                                                        anything besides chemicals I will try that first, I try to avoid them
                                                                                                                                                                                        whenever possible. I did use a chlorine/chloramine remover product
                                                                                                                                                                                        for the water, and I also added the Blackwater tonic which I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                        surprized is still available. I like the Blackwater tonic, its one
                                                                                                                                                                                        of the few things that actually works benefically in the water. I use
                                                                                                                                                                                        about a third of the recommend dose. The other thing I'm a believer
                                                                                                                                                                                        in is getting a bit of gravel from an established tank, like a few
                                                                                                                                                                                        grams or so to seed bacteria in the new tank. I really think that
                                                                                                                                                                                        works. I put a small water softener pillow in the filter for a few
                                                                                                                                                                                        days then I corrected the pH with a pH test kit to around neutral.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a Diatom filter and ran that for a few hours after setting up
                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank. The Diatom filter creates such a high pressure differential
                                                                                                                                                                                        across the filter medium that disolved gasses are drawn out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                        water and expelled. I use an airstone to maintain the disolved air
                                                                                                                                                                                        levels. I also put some zeolite stones in the filter bag.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I know I've been overfeeding my fish. Feeding a handful of neons is
                                                                                                                                                                                        difficult to get right, expecially with the frozen foods so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                        siphoning a bit of water off the bottom regularly. So far so good
                                                                                                                                                                                        but I am keeping my eye on everything. I'm going to take some water
                                                                                                                                                                                        over to the petshop later today to get the free nitrotests, last week
                                                                                                                                                                                        every thing seemed normal. I'm also keeping the light on for 20 or
                                                                                                                                                                                        so hours a day.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan





                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, StarWolf
                                                                                                                                                                                        <starbev@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after a 12 year absence.
                                                                                                                                                                                        I had
                                                                                                                                                                                        > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank a long time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                        but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                        > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of fish food and
                                                                                                                                                                                        turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                        > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my point.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > My point is how did you get all of your levels balanced so fast? I
                                                                                                                                                                                        am still
                                                                                                                                                                                        > waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my tank has been set up,
                                                                                                                                                                                        with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days now. My Ph is
                                                                                                                                                                                        fine, and
                                                                                                                                                                                        > of course I don't have ammonia problems, but the Nitrates are still
                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                        > little high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >I recently set up a home aquarium after being away from tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon sand for the substrate,
                                                                                                                                                                                        I
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >like thta better than the usual coarse grave and I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >like it better also. I put an undergravel filter in but am not
                                                                                                                                                                                        using
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >After letting the tank sit for about a week I put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4734 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: High pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        Jonathan, I had the same problem; my well water pH ranges between 8.0 and 8.5. (Are you a neighbor of mine? Most people on this site are disbelieving when I tell them my pH.)After the nitrogen cycle was complete, the pH in the tank was down to 7.8. When looking for advice on my first fish, I was advised against keeping cichlids because my tank is only 10 gallons (later found out I could have kept some shell dwellers in that tank with no space problems at all), so I added driftwood to my tank, and that worked... but only for a while. Then I added CO2 to my tank (for my live plants), and it gradually dropped the pH down to 7.2. But the second time I changed the CO2 generator, I turned up the bubbles too high and it dropped from 7.8 down to 6.2 in 2 days! (Lost a fish.)
                                                                                                                                                                                        The problem with changing your natural pH is that every time you change your water (which I do weekly) you also have to adjust the pH of the water you add back into the tank, somehow, to keep it balanced. Otherwise you will be fighting a losing battle, like me. So I am switching to African Cichlids (but in a larger tank, 29 gallons) when I move!

                                                                                                                                                                                        For those of you who remember my past problems with my Dwarf Gouramis, my Powder Blue male (Billy the Bully) finally died yesterday of his wounds, which appeared to have become infected, in spite of daily doses of Melafix. :-( So now the only occupants of my tank are the Golden White Clouds (and their fry), and the snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 6
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:35:38 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Jonathan Hartsoe" <jhartsoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well trying to find out the easiest way to lower and maintain pH in my
                                                                                                                                                                                        > planted tank. My problem is my tap waters pH is 8 with hardness around 12
                                                                                                                                                                                        > which is great for my african cichlids but not much else. What i want to
                                                                                                                                                                                        > find out is how can I lower my pH and soften the water without having to use
                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemical additives. Media i can add to filter, driftwood etc. I know
                                                                                                                                                                                        > driftwood will soften the water but don't know about the pH. How well does
                                                                                                                                                                                        > peat in the filter work. I would prefer an alternatives to chemicals as
                                                                                                                                                                                        > accidental spikes can occur.
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > [This message contained attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 7
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:16:02 EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: sevenspringss@...
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Peat in the filter does work well, as in addition to lowering the pH, it also
                                                                                                                                                                                        > reduces the hardness, thereby reducing your water's buffering capacity and
                                                                                                                                                                                        > enabling it to stabilize at a lower pH without bouncing back up. You could use
                                                                                                                                                                                        > white vinegar to lower the pH as well; in actuality, vinegar is really diluted
                                                                                                                                                                                        > acetic acid -- this converts all CO3 to HCO3 and does reduce the pH. This may
                                                                                                                                                                                        > be too "chemical" for your use as you said you'd rather stay away from
                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemicals, but then, everything in this world is chemical (organic or not) whether it
                                                                                                                                                                                        > is an element or a compound. An alternate method of reducing the pH is with
                                                                                                                                                                                        > crushed Lava Rock in the filter. Its found at flower/greenhouse outlets and is
                                                                                                                                                                                        > used for certain Orchids. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > [This message contained attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4735 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm afraid that pH is basically a chemistry paradigm so there's
                                                                                                                                                                                        really no getting around the chemical connection. It's not like
                                                                                                                                                                                        treating algae, say, where you have a choice of treatments styles,
                                                                                                                                                                                        chemical poison, mechanical scraping, et al. However chemical pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        manipulation doesn't normally fall into the "poisioning" category to
                                                                                                                                                                                        so maybe you can take some neo-organic solace in that.

                                                                                                                                                                                        pH is the measure of concentration of H+ ions in the water (its
                                                                                                                                                                                        actually the negative base-ten exponent of the number of ions per
                                                                                                                                                                                        volume, 10^-7 defined as neutral) so the least intrusive way of
                                                                                                                                                                                        bringing "down" the pH is to increase the number of H+ ions in the
                                                                                                                                                                                        water (10-6 indicates more H ions than 10-7).
                                                                                                                                                                                        The only real way to do that is to add an acid to the water, since
                                                                                                                                                                                        that's where H ions come from; dissociation of the H from the acid
                                                                                                                                                                                        molecule (in the proton donar senc se an acid).

                                                                                                                                                                                        Your only real choice is which acid to add. My opinion is that
                                                                                                                                                                                        mineral acids are best, in the sense of least intrusive (intrusive
                                                                                                                                                                                        meaning altering other things in your aquarium besides the pH) like
                                                                                                                                                                                        sulphuric or hydrocloric acid. Acetic acid, carbolic and phosphoric
                                                                                                                                                                                        acids will also do the trick but introduce additional mineral
                                                                                                                                                                                        content. Acetic acid is white vinegar, phosporic acid is the active
                                                                                                                                                                                        ingredient in dishwashing detergent and free CO2 will partially
                                                                                                                                                                                        convert to carbolic acid.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I also understand that you cannot reduce the pH significantly if your
                                                                                                                                                                                        water is too calcium hard, so bringing down the mineral hardness may
                                                                                                                                                                                        also be important to decreasing alkalinity/increasing acidity (in the
                                                                                                                                                                                        electron aceptor sense of an acid).

                                                                                                                                                                                        I know of two ways to reduce calcium ion content, exchange and
                                                                                                                                                                                        conversion. Adding a water softening pillow that has been replenished
                                                                                                                                                                                        in NaCl exchanges some of the free Ca ions for Na ions and is the
                                                                                                                                                                                        most pratical way of reducing mineral hardness.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not a chemist so maybe there are more things to consider to make
                                                                                                                                                                                        this a complete science, but I think these are the broadest concepts
                                                                                                                                                                                        that an aquarists need consider in order to regulate his water
                                                                                                                                                                                        satisfactorily.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hartsoe" <jhartsoe@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well trying to find out the easiest way to lower and maintain pH in
                                                                                                                                                                                        my
                                                                                                                                                                                        > planted tank. My problem is my tap waters pH is 8 with hardness
                                                                                                                                                                                        around 12
                                                                                                                                                                                        > which is great for my african cichlids but not much else. What i
                                                                                                                                                                                        want to
                                                                                                                                                                                        > find out is how can I lower my pH and soften the water without
                                                                                                                                                                                        having to use
                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemical additives. Media i can add to filter, driftwood etc. I know
                                                                                                                                                                                        > driftwood will soften the water but don't know about the pH. How
                                                                                                                                                                                        well does
                                                                                                                                                                                        > peat in the filter work. I would prefer an alternatives to
                                                                                                                                                                                        chemicals as
                                                                                                                                                                                        > accidental spikes can occur.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4736 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        Peat, and don't forget CO2 injection. Have you thought about an RO unit
                                                                                                                                                                                        to bring the hardness down?

                                                                                                                                                                                        --
                                                                                                                                                                                        Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                                        Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                                                        Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                                                        +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                                                        On 02/09/2004, at 11:35 PM, Jonathan Hartsoe wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                        > <l.gif>
                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                        > •
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                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4737 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: eggs!
                                                                                                                                                                                        Yep, those neons are spraying eggs, this time my old eyes actually
                                                                                                                                                                                        saw them.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I though for the last week or so they were egging but I didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                        actually see the eggs until today. I think its three or four females
                                                                                                                                                                                        too, and the males in the tank are just going crazy! There's so
                                                                                                                                                                                        much "shadowing" going on, then occasionally a burst of activity,
                                                                                                                                                                                        this time I actually saw a few eggs released in the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4738 From: Patrick Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                              I would actually suggest leaving it unless you are going to have discus or angelfish.  If you are keeping discus, you probably could afford an R/O unit.  If you are keeping tetras, I would agree with the peat moss suggestion.
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                          WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                          If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          Well trying to find out the easiest way to lower and maintain pH in my planted tank. My problem is my tap waters pH is 8 with hardness around 12 which is great for my african cichlids but not much else. What i want to find out is how can I lower my pH and soften the water without having to use chemical additives. Media i can add to filter, driftwood etc. I know driftwood will soften the water but don't know about the pH. How well does peat in the filter work. I would prefer an alternatives to chemicals as accidental spikes can occur.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4739 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                          I agree with that, leaving the water alone is probably the best
                                                                                                                                                                                          solution.

                                                                                                                                                                                          But may I make a suggestion without meaning to be contrary?

                                                                                                                                                                                          The RO, while it will do the job, is going to cost $100-$150 and it
                                                                                                                                                                                          will remove _all_ disolved minerals, not just calcium, and then you
                                                                                                                                                                                          have the problem of having to re-introduce electrolytes to keep fish
                                                                                                                                                                                          and plants healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sea salt will do that, but then how much? So then now you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                          measure magnesium, or potasium, or something so that's another test
                                                                                                                                                                                          kit you need.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Why not just put a water softening pillow in the filter instead? It
                                                                                                                                                                                          uses the same resin that a water softener uses, is rechargeable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                          is more selective about the ion removal than a RO unit, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                          require ion replacement, and it only costs $5 or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Also, rather than peat, which is a tried and true technique, if you
                                                                                                                                                                                          can get so-called "German peatmoss" might I suggest using the Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                          Blackwater tonic? It has the same capability as peat, plus, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                          works naturally to soften/acidify without having to worry about what
                                                                                                                                                                                          else might be in the peat that you come across. Plus shops that don't
                                                                                                                                                                                          like to carry peat will carry BWT. I've used the BWT before and it
                                                                                                                                                                                          does make the water more amazon-like, I believe. I use about a third
                                                                                                                                                                                          of the recommended dose.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Again, I don't mean to appear contradictory, because your suggestions
                                                                                                                                                                                          are definately accurate. This is just another way of ariving at an
                                                                                                                                                                                          equally acceptable solution.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                                                                                                                                                                                          <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                          > I would actually suggest leaving it unless you are going to
                                                                                                                                                                                          have discus
                                                                                                                                                                                          > or angelfish. If you are keeping discus, you probably could afford
                                                                                                                                                                                          an R/O
                                                                                                                                                                                          > unit. If you are keeping tetras, I would agree with the peat moss
                                                                                                                                                                                          > suggestion.
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                          juli
                                                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                          ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                          filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                          sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                          provide
                                                                                                                                                                                          > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                          > Well trying to find out the easiest way to lower and maintain pH in
                                                                                                                                                                                          my planted tank. My problem is my tap waters pH is 8 with hardness
                                                                                                                                                                                          around 12 which is great for my african cichlids but not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                          What i want to find out is how can I lower my pH and soften the water
                                                                                                                                                                                          without having to use chemical additives. Media i can add to filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                          driftwood etc. I know driftwood will soften the water but don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                          about the pH. How well does peat in the filter work. I would prefer
                                                                                                                                                                                          an alternatives to chemicals as accidental spikes can occur.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4740 From: harry perry Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                          I enjoy challenging people, it forces them to think. Which in your case would be a major challenge. Just the fact that you would dispute that your colossal ego should be challenged proves my point. Is your name Paul(God)Helms or what?.
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry 

                                                                                                                                                                                          paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                          why do you try to piss people off?  this isnot a
                                                                                                                                                                                          formal arena, requiring perfect typing.  90% of the
                                                                                                                                                                                          posting on here contain errors, but i suppose that you
                                                                                                                                                                                          have never made a spelling mistake. KMA harry
                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                          --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                          > At the top of your page there is a spell check
                                                                                                                                                                                          > button. Try using it, it isn't hard to use.

                                                                                                                                                                                          > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                          > for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                          > something
                                                                                                                                                                                          > wong with the water to start.  i would reduce that
                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature to 83 as high temperature s can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                          > stress on fish not suited for it.  did you remember
                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                          > take the carbon out of the tank before traeting, as
                                                                                                                                                                                          > it
                                                                                                                                                                                          > removes the agents from your tanks.  also may be
                                                                                                                                                                                          > better to use something with either copper,
                                                                                                                                                                                          > methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                          > blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper
                                                                                                                                                                                          > derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                          > kill anything without a backbone, but do not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                          > scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                          > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a
                                                                                                                                                                                          > little
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought it
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive been
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > white spots on him now. the mono has developed
                                                                                                                                                                                          > some
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come off?
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                          > > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4741 From: StarWolf Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                            I took my water into PetCountry today (Grange Co-op) and had them test it. I am still too high on Nitrates, but he said I am at the end of my cycle and they are going down. I should be able to put fish in my tank next week. *sigh* I am starting to get a little weary of waiting.
                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't like the idea of putting chemicals in my tank either, I didn't put them in my Angel tank years ago, and they did just fine for years, but that was well water, not city water.
                                                                                                                                                                                            I should try to get some rocks from an established tank, but honestly, I don't know anyone who has a healthy tank to get rocks from, aside from the pet stores, and I highly doubt they will let me have any of theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                            We have air stone as well. I love the effect it gives through the back of the tank, not to mention the sound is soothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                            How does the light being on and off effect the whole cycle of the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                            ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                            Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
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                                                                                                                                                                                            "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                            "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                            "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4742 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                            i think all day mister high and mighty. i am a
                                                                                                                                                                                            college student working on my third degree, and should
                                                                                                                                                                                            not have to worry about my typing here. i said
                                                                                                                                                                                            nothing about an ego, which i do not have, or at least
                                                                                                                                                                                            am not displaying my this statement. you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                            challenging me at all by making smart ass comments
                                                                                                                                                                                            about using spell check. i have no problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                            people giving their opinions, and you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                            challenging my intellect, or ego by trying to act
                                                                                                                                                                                            superior, you just make yourself look like an arrogant
                                                                                                                                                                                            ass who has nothing better to do than nit pick at
                                                                                                                                                                                            people. my ego has nothing to do with my typing.
                                                                                                                                                                                            this is an aquarium forum not a masculinity assertion
                                                                                                                                                                                            forum. stick to fish or don't bother me.

                                                                                                                                                                                            --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                            > I enjoy challenging people, it forces them to think.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Which in your case would be a major challenge. Just
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the fact that you would dispute that your colossal
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ego should be challenged proves my point. Is your
                                                                                                                                                                                            > name Paul(God)Helms or what?.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:why do you
                                                                                                                                                                                            > try to piss people off? this isnot a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > formal arena, requiring perfect typing. 90% of the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > posting on here contain errors, but i suppose that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > you
                                                                                                                                                                                            > have never made a spelling mistake. KMA harry
                                                                                                                                                                                            > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > At the top of your page there is a spell check
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > button. Try using it, it isn't hard to use.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > something
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wong with the water to start. i would reduce that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > temperature to 83 as high temperature s can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > stress on fish not suited for it. did you
                                                                                                                                                                                            > remember
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > take the carbon out of the tank before traeting,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > as
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > removes the agents from your tanks. also may be
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > better to use something with either copper,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > kill anything without a backbone, but do not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > little
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought
                                                                                                                                                                                            > it
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive
                                                                                                                                                                                            > been
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > white spots on him now. the mono has developed
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > some
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come
                                                                                                                                                                                            > off?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4743 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            the light being on during teh cycle will just grow
                                                                                                                                                                                            algae, and if you are not doing a fish cycle, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                            no need to mess with the lights.

                                                                                                                                                                                            --- StarWolf <starbev@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I took my water into PetCountry today (Grange Co-op)
                                                                                                                                                                                            > and had them test it.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am still too high on Nitrates, but he said I am at
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the end of my cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                            > and they are going down. I should be able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish in my tank next week.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > *sigh* I am starting to get a little weary of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > waiting.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I don't like the idea of putting chemicals in my
                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank either, I didn't put
                                                                                                                                                                                            > them in my Angel tank years ago, and they did just
                                                                                                                                                                                            > fine for years, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > was well water, not city water.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I should try to get some rocks from an established
                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank, but honestly, I
                                                                                                                                                                                            > don't know anyone who has a healthy tank to get
                                                                                                                                                                                            > rocks from, aside from the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > pet stores, and I highly doubt they will let me have
                                                                                                                                                                                            > any of theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > We have air stone as well. I love the effect it
                                                                                                                                                                                            > gives through the back of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the tank, not to mention the sound is soothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > How does the light being on and off effect the whole
                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycle of the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4744 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            i agree with you there, i was more referring to all
                                                                                                                                                                                            the junk that we add to the water to make it safer for
                                                                                                                                                                                            us, which is worse for the environment, such as
                                                                                                                                                                                            ammonia, chloramine, nitrates, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                            --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm not sure that the water quality today is
                                                                                                                                                                                            > generally all that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > different than it was 30 yeats ago, The real major
                                                                                                                                                                                            > differente is that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > roday you've got all the HP intstruments that can
                                                                                                                                                                                            > measure ppb that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > didn't exist 30 years ago. So while the water
                                                                                                                                                                                            > quality hasn't changed
                                                                                                                                                                                            > all tha much our knowledge of what's in it has. We
                                                                                                                                                                                            > still use the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > same copper soldered pipes but today we can measure
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the disolved lead
                                                                                                                                                                                            > from the solder whereas we couln't do that 30 years
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ago. So much of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the water tasted bad back then as it does today,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > just that we drank
                                                                                                                                                                                            > more coca cola back then because we didn't know what
                                                                                                                                                                                            > was in coca cola
                                                                                                                                                                                            > at that time. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                            > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                            > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yes, water quality has made a huge difference in
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > last thirty years. where you could drink the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > watre,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > play in it, and have pets in before, now none of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > above i necessarily safe. really sucks doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                            > it?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- wendie <wendieo@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I'm another one returning after 30 years away
                                                                                                                                                                                            > from
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the hobby. At that time,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I set up a tank, waited a day and added the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > without any problems. The
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish lived for 10 to 15 years with very few
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > problems. Ran a community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bred angels, cats, gourami, bettas, etc without
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ever
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > checking the ph or
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > anything like that. Had a filter... none of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > this
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > new stuff.. just a plain
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > filter. All this new stuff is overwhelming with
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cycle, bio this, bio that.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Soooooooooooo different!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I am returning to the Tropical fish world,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > after a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > 12 year absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > long time ago, but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish food and turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my
                                                                                                                                                                                            > point.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > My point is how did you get all of your levels
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > balanced so fast? I am
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > tank has been set up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10
                                                                                                                                                                                            > days
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > now. My Ph is fine, and of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > course I don't have ammonia problems, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Nitrates are still a little
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this
                                                                                                                                                                                            > group.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I recently set up a home aquarium after
                                                                                                                                                                                            > being
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > away from tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > aquarium with a Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon
                                                                                                                                                                                            > sand
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > for the substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > like thta better than the usual coarse grave
                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I think the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > like it better also. I put an undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > in but am not using
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > After letting the tank sit for about a week
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > put some neon tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants
                                                                                                                                                                                            > on
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > line and am waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Stan
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                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4745 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            lmao
                                                                                                                                                                                            --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                            > Heh, I know, it's like total techy-time if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                            > to fret about
                                                                                                                                                                                            > water chemistry and all the gadgets that are
                                                                                                                                                                                            > available. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                            > keeping the water clean and frequent parital changes
                                                                                                                                                                                            > is probably
                                                                                                                                                                                            > still what works best.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > The real huge difference today though is in all the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > salt water
                                                                                                                                                                                            > goodies that are available today. My definitiion of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > a salt water
                                                                                                                                                                                            > aquarium: A big hole in the living room into which
                                                                                                                                                                                            > you keep pouring
                                                                                                                                                                                            > money.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                            > <wendieo@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I'm another one returning after 30 years away from
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the hobby. At
                                                                                                                                                                                            > that time,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I set up a tank, waited a day and added the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                            > without any
                                                                                                                                                                                            > problems. The
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish lived for 10 to 15 years with very few
                                                                                                                                                                                            > problems. Ran a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bred angels, cats, gourami, bettas, etc without
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ever checking the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ph or
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > anything like that. Had a filter... none of this
                                                                                                                                                                                            > new stuff.. just
                                                                                                                                                                                            > a plain
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter. All this new stuff is overwhelming with
                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycle, bio this,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > bio that.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Soooooooooooo different!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I am returning to the Tropical fish world, after
                                                                                                                                                                                            > a 12 year
                                                                                                                                                                                            > absence. I had
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > some Angels, Dannies and Tetras in a smaller tank
                                                                                                                                                                                            > a long time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > but my 2
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > year old (at the time) fed them the whole can of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish food and
                                                                                                                                                                                            > turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > heat up and killed them... okay that isn't my
                                                                                                                                                                                            > point.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > My point is how did you get all of your levels
                                                                                                                                                                                            > balanced so fast?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > still waiting out the Nitrates right now, and my
                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank has been set
                                                                                                                                                                                            > up, with
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > rocks, plants and a few snails, for about 10 days
                                                                                                                                                                                            > now. My Ph is
                                                                                                                                                                                            > fine, and of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > course I don't have ammonia problems, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrates are still a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > little
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > high for me to add any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > At 01:07 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Bubble, bubble, hello. I'm new in this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I recently set up a home aquarium after being
                                                                                                                                                                                            > away from
                                                                                                                                                                                            > tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for 30-ish years. I have a 50 gal bowfront
                                                                                                                                                                                            > aquarium with a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter. I used about 80 lbs of #10 silicon
                                                                                                                                                                                            > sand for the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > substrate, I
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > like thta better than the usual coarse grave
                                                                                                                                                                                            > and I think the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > like it better also. I put an undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter in but am not
                                                                                                                                                                                            > using
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > After letting the tank sit for about a week I
                                                                                                                                                                                            > put some neon
                                                                                                                                                                                            > tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and spotted corys into it. I ordered plants on
                                                                                                                                                                                            > line and am
                                                                                                                                                                                            > waiting
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for them to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4746 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            > How does the light being on and off effect the whole cycle of the
                                                                                                                                                                                            tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Star,

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not sure it does, actually. To tell you the truth I'm going by
                                                                                                                                                                                            touchy-feely here, trying to work with the system rather than on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I am trying to encourage some algae to establish itself in the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                            that should help to control byproducts like the nitros. Algae is
                                                                                                                                                                                            part of the ecosystem and it will remove iron and magnesium from the
                                                                                                                                                                                            water among the other things. If I get a full blown algae bloom then
                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll run the Diatom for an hour to get rid of it.

                                                                                                                                                                                            It also does seem to help the one plant that I have in there, a micro
                                                                                                                                                                                            sword that's now sending out runners with little plants on it and I
                                                                                                                                                                                            suspect that's a good thing. I figure that what's good for plants is
                                                                                                                                                                                            probably good for fish also.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I remember running an experiment 30 years ago, and I concluded that
                                                                                                                                                                                            plants need at least 4 hours of dark every day, any less and they get
                                                                                                                                                                                            weak. So I am keeping the light on for a long time every day. But
                                                                                                                                                                                            honestly I can't say with conviction that it is doing anything that
                                                                                                                                                                                            running the light 12 hours a day wouldn't also do.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I got that one plant at the local petshop and asked them to put a
                                                                                                                                                                                            little gravel in with it into the bag, which they oblidged me with
                                                                                                                                                                                            after I turned down the $5 bottle of bacteria they tried to offer me
                                                                                                                                                                                            instead. Actually the only tank in the petshop that I even feel
                                                                                                                                                                                            somewhat comfortable about to be disease free is the plant tank that
                                                                                                                                                                                            only has a few fishes in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan





                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, StarWolf
                                                                                                                                                                                            <starbev@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I took my water into PetCountry today (Grange Co-op) and had them
                                                                                                                                                                                            test it.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am still too high on Nitrates, but he said I am at the end of my
                                                                                                                                                                                            cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                            > and they are going down. I should be able to put fish in my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                            next week.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > *sigh* I am starting to get a little weary of waiting.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I don't like the idea of putting chemicals in my tank either, I
                                                                                                                                                                                            didn't put
                                                                                                                                                                                            > them in my Angel tank years ago, and they did just fine for years,
                                                                                                                                                                                            but that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > was well water, not city water.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > I should try to get some rocks from an established tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                            honestly, I
                                                                                                                                                                                            > don't know anyone who has a healthy tank to get rocks from, aside
                                                                                                                                                                                            from the
                                                                                                                                                                                            > pet stores, and I highly doubt they will let me have any of theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > We have air stone as well. I love the effect it gives through the
                                                                                                                                                                                            back of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the tank, not to mention the sound is soothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > How does the light being on and off effect the whole cycle of the
                                                                                                                                                                                            tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                            there is
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hate, there will be no Peace."
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4747 From: wendie Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            Star,
                                                                                                                                                                                            What about slate?  Would that work?  I also saw some great caves for repitiles that I think
                                                                                                                                                                                            can be sued in the tank also.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                            From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Glub, glub, glub...

                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                            I took my water into PetCountry today (Grange Co-op) and had them test it. I am still too high on Nitrates, but he said I am at the end of my cycle and they are going down. I should be able to put fish in my tank next week. *sigh* I am starting to get a little weary of waiting.
                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't like the idea of putting chemicals in my tank either, I didn't put them in my Angel tank years ago, and they did just fine for years, but that was well water, not city water.
                                                                                                                                                                                            I should try to get some rocks from an established tank, but honestly, I don't know anyone who has a healthy tank to get rocks from, aside from the pet stores, and I highly doubt they will let me have any of theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                            We have air stone as well. I love the effect it gives through the back of the tank, not to mention the sound is soothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                            How does the light being on and off effect the whole cycle of the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                            ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                            Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                            Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                            "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                            "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                            "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4748 From: molly_lec Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                            Well we able to find Stress Zyme and Stress Coat. The Koi loved the
                                                                                                                                                                                            stress coat, and this made them very happy. Still the tank is very
                                                                                                                                                                                            clouded. Today,(Thrusday) the water is extremely clouded and the Koi
                                                                                                                                                                                            are having trouble breathing. We realize that the ACCU-CLEAR that we
                                                                                                                                                                                            had used and plant matter had filled the new filter. Changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                            filter did help, yet is still very clouded. But at least the Koi are
                                                                                                                                                                                            breathing much better.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I really don't want to change the water until they are less
                                                                                                                                                                                            stressed. However I do not see any other choice. Tomorrow we will
                                                                                                                                                                                            purchase a gravel vacuum and change half the water in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                            add more Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Do we need a better filter system of just need to change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                            more often than we thought?

                                                                                                                                                                                            Thank You,

                                                                                                                                                                                            Molly




                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                            <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                            > these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                            > filtration system.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                            > the young female Koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thank You again,
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                            > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cloudy water is usually from a lack of beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank. Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > tanks or that knows about " caring for children"
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn off
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite. Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks alright
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank package.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water with
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear water
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to my
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                            > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4749 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                            Could someone explain using white vinegar to me?  Do you really add this to the water? Does it really not harm the fish? I've just never hard of this before and I've done some major research on lowering the pH value. 
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            The best way I have found is peat moss from the garden center, but it's very time consuming and it would take like 15 hours just get to the 55 gallons I need, then a few hours a month to make enough water to do weekly water changes.  If anyone wants the information on how I filtered it let me know and I'll be happy to type in the info.
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Maintaining pH

                                                                                                                                                                                            Peat in the filter does work well, as in addition to lowering the pH, it also reduces the hardness, thereby reducing your water's buffering capacity and enabling it to stabilize at a lower pH without bouncing back up. You could use white vinegar to lower the pH as well; in actuality, vinegar is really diluted acetic acid -- this converts all CO3 to HCO3 and does reduce the pH. This may be too "chemical" for your use as you said you'd rather stay away from chemicals, but then, everything in this world is chemical (organic or not) whether it is an element or a compound. An alternate method of reducing the pH is with crushed Lava Rock in the filter. Its found at flower/greenhouse outlets and is used for certain Orchids. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4750 From: StarWolf Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Glub, glub, glub...
                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                              At 05:43 PM 9/2/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > How does the light being on and off effect the whole cycle of the
                                                                                                                                                                                              tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ~Star

                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Star,

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not sure it does, actually.  To tell you the truth I'm going by
                                                                                                                                                                                              touchy-feely here, trying to work with the system rather than on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I am sure that the snails from our pond brought algae with them, and I have a bunch of plants in there. Perhaps when I pass by PetCountry next time, I will ask them for a little bit of their gravel from the plant tank *wink*
                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                              ~Star


                                                                                                                                                                                              B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                              Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                              Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                              "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                              "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                              "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4751 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                              Cloudy water is usually caused by a bacterial bloom from excess
                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrogen compounds in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                              I'd be doing a water change immediately and probably 1/3 of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                              each day for a couple of days to try and reduce those nitr[ia]tes. You
                                                                                                                                                                                              may be over feeding as well, this causes pollution in the water that
                                                                                                                                                                                              needn't be there. Even though the fish keep eating they may be
                                                                                                                                                                                              overeating as much as you're overfeeding, so consider reducing how much
                                                                                                                                                                                              you're feeding the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                              On 03/09/2004, at 12:09 PM, molly_lec wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Well we able to find Stress Zyme and Stress Coat. The Koi loved the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > stress coat, and this made them very happy. Still the tank is very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > clouded. Today,(Thrusday) the water is extremely clouded and the Koi
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are having trouble breathing. We realize that the ACCU-CLEAR that we
                                                                                                                                                                                              > had used and plant matter had filled the new filter. Changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter did help, yet is still very clouded. But at least the Koi are
                                                                                                                                                                                              > breathing much better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > I really don't want to change the water until they are less
                                                                                                                                                                                              > stressed. However I do not see any other choice. Tomorrow we will
                                                                                                                                                                                              > purchase a gravel vacuum and change half the water in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > add more Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Do we need a better filter system of just need to change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > more often than we thought?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thank You,
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filtration system.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the young female Koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You again,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > cloudy water is usually from a lack of beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme.  it is a non harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank. Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > tanks  or that knows about " caring for children"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn off
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite. Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks alright
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank package.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water with
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to my
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >            
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4752 From: paul helms Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                              it will take 3-4 days with the stress zyme to start
                                                                                                                                                                                              clearing, so i would recomend being patient. i would
                                                                                                                                                                                              also not recomend changing more than 25% of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              at a time, as the tank is still new. others may
                                                                                                                                                                                              advise differently, but that is my two cents. good
                                                                                                                                                                                              luck with whatever method you choose

                                                                                                                                                                                              --- molly_lec <molly_lec@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Well we able to find Stress Zyme and Stress Coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > The Koi loved the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > stress coat, and this made them very happy. Still
                                                                                                                                                                                              > the tank is very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > clouded. Today,(Thrusday) the water is extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                              > clouded and the Koi
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are having trouble breathing. We realize that the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ACCU-CLEAR that we
                                                                                                                                                                                              > had used and plant matter had filled the new filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter did help, yet is still very clouded. But at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > least the Koi are
                                                                                                                                                                                              > breathing much better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > I really don't want to change the water until they
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are less
                                                                                                                                                                                              > stressed. However I do not see any other choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Tomorrow we will
                                                                                                                                                                                              > purchase a gravel vacuum and change half the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > add more Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Do we need a better filter system of just need to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > more often than we thought?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thank You,
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if
                                                                                                                                                                                              > I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will
                                                                                                                                                                                              > try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filtration system.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the young female Koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You again,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > cloudy water is usually from a lack of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non
                                                                                                                                                                                              > harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > tanks or that knows about " caring for
                                                                                                                                                                                              > children"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn
                                                                                                                                                                                              > off
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks
                                                                                                                                                                                              > alright
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                              > package.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > with
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear
                                                                                                                                                                                              > water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > my
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB
                                                                                                                                                                                              > messages!
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >





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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4753 From: molly_lec Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                              Thank You so much, Paul and Tim,

                                                                                                                                                                                              We live in Alaska and our only water source is a very clean spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                              We could import well water, but declined due to very much sediment.
                                                                                                                                                                                              I know that Koi are very strong basic fish. When I lived in L.A.,
                                                                                                                                                                                              many homes had kiddie pools of the inflatable type that where filled
                                                                                                                                                                                              with Koi and enjoyed very low maintenance and without the benefit of
                                                                                                                                                                                              any filtration. Still this is a tank. I used to keep tropicals, but
                                                                                                                                                                                              this was many years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Thank You so much. Paul and Tim.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Molly






                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > it will take 3-4 days with the stress zyme to start
                                                                                                                                                                                              > clearing, so i would recomend being patient. i would
                                                                                                                                                                                              > also not recomend changing more than 25% of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > at a time, as the tank is still new. others may
                                                                                                                                                                                              > advise differently, but that is my two cents. good
                                                                                                                                                                                              > luck with whatever method you choose
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Well we able to find Stress Zyme and Stress Coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > The Koi loved the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > stress coat, and this made them very happy. Still
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the tank is very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > clouded. Today,(Thrusday) the water is extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > clouded and the Koi
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > are having trouble breathing. We realize that the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > ACCU-CLEAR that we
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > had used and plant matter had filled the new filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filter did help, yet is still very clouded. But at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > least the Koi are
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > breathing much better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I really don't want to change the water until they
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > are less
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > stressed. However I do not see any other choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Tomorrow we will
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > purchase a gravel vacuum and change half the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > add more Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Do we need a better filter system of just need to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > more often than we thought?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > filtration system.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the young female Koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Thank You again,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > cloudy water is usually from a lack of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > tanks or that knows about " caring for
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > children"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > off
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > alright
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > package.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > with
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4754 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Greetings,

                                                                                                                                                                                              H'lo,

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I have'nt been following this thread, but have you thought about buying a filter with a micron-filter-element? Not to ignore sound system maintainance, but those filters can clear water quickly, especially used with the right amount of potassium permanganate. (I don't know if anyone on the list has critical info re: p. permanganate, but I used it with authoratative recommendation, and it helped.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Well we able to find Stress Zyme and Stress Coat. The Koi loved the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > stress coat, and this made them very happy. Still the tank is very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > clouded. Today,(Thrusday) the water is extremely clouded and the Koi
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are having trouble breathing. We realize that the ACCU-CLEAR that we
                                                                                                                                                                                              > had used and plant matter had filled the new filter. Changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter did help, yet is still very clouded. But at least the Koi are
                                                                                                                                                                                              > breathing much better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > I really don't want to change the water until they are less
                                                                                                                                                                                              > stressed. However I do not see any other choice. Tomorrow we will
                                                                                                                                                                                              > purchase a gravel vacuum and change half the water in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > add more Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Do we need a better filter system of just need to change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > more often than we thought?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thank You,
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filtration system.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the young female Koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thank You again,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > cloudy water is usually from a lack of beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- molly_lec wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank. Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > tanks or that knows about " caring for children"
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn off
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite. Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks alright
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank package.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water with
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear water
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to my
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4755 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't think vinegar would be to chemical but probably would lean to the peat/lava rock solution because of buffering capacity seeing that every water change I do going to be hard alkaline water. By chemical i was referering to the products sold in LFS peat is obviously chemical but its natural organic chemistry. Now guess i'll be giving an aquaclear filter a test run. Oh well don't guess I can be called brand biased cause I'll now be running whisper, emperor and aquaclear filters oh yeah and regent.
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the info.
                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Maintaining pH

                                                                                                                                                                                              Peat in the filter does work well, as in addition to lowering the pH, it also reduces the hardness, thereby reducing your water's buffering capacity and enabling it to stabilize at a lower pH without bouncing back up. You could use white vinegar to lower the pH as well; in actuality, vinegar is really diluted acetic acid -- this converts all CO3 to HCO3 and does reduce the pH. This may be too "chemical" for your use as you said you'd rather stay away from chemicals, but then, everything in this world is chemical (organic or not) whether it is an element or a compound. An alternate method of reducing the pH is with crushed Lava Rock in the filter. Its found at flower/greenhouse outlets and is used for certain Orchids. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4756 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: eggs!
                                                                                                                                                                                              This spawing is still going on. I sat and watched them for a while
                                                                                                                                                                                              and there is a regular behavior pattern here.

                                                                                                                                                                                              First of all the big female seems to have a dark area reminicent of
                                                                                                                                                                                              the gravid area of a pregnant female guppy but not nearly so
                                                                                                                                                                                              pronounced. But it is there and you can see it if she gets in a
                                                                                                                                                                                              position to be backlit.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Generally the schooling behavior of the group is broken up during the
                                                                                                                                                                                              spawning. The bloated female rests under a plant for a while while
                                                                                                                                                                                              her male hovers about overhead. Then she emerges from her resting
                                                                                                                                                                                              spot and chases him, and then they go at it, fishtailing around each
                                                                                                                                                                                              other and playing bumper cars. Then sometimes after this I see maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                              three or four little white eggs. Then she returns to her resting
                                                                                                                                                                                              place under the little plant again. Sometimes he draws her out and
                                                                                                                                                                                              they fishtail each other but I haven't seen egg spray at these times,
                                                                                                                                                                                              only when she initiates the fishplay. It appears to always be the
                                                                                                                                                                                              same male that she is spawing with though I often see a different
                                                                                                                                                                                              male getting in on the fishplay.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Unfortunately the other fish eat the eggs as soon as they are sprayed
                                                                                                                                                                                              and if they do fall to the gravel then I'm sure the catfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                              getting them, they are awfully active in that area now.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I felt bad about the eggs getting eaten after all their hard work,
                                                                                                                                                                                              but when I dimmed the light their behavior broke up and they went
                                                                                                                                                                                              back to schooling. Brightining the light soon resulted in the
                                                                                                                                                                                              spawing behavior starting up again.

                                                                                                                                                                                              It's nice to see this in a startup tank, I wasn't expecting spawing
                                                                                                                                                                                              behavior at this point. There are few plants in the tank and the
                                                                                                                                                                                              rocks are only roughly laid out; I am still awaiting my plant order
                                                                                                                                                                                              delivery. It's more that the fish are ready, not the tank, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                              gives me great hope for the future when all will be set up and
                                                                                                                                                                                              running properly. I did select this specific female from a shop tank
                                                                                                                                                                                              because she was so big and bloated and kudos to the pershop girl who
                                                                                                                                                                                              was able to keep her eye on the fish and net her in that crowded tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Stan







                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Yep, those neons are spraying eggs, this time my old eyes actually
                                                                                                                                                                                              > saw them.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > I though for the last week or so they were egging but I didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                              > actually see the eggs until today. I think its three or four
                                                                                                                                                                                              females
                                                                                                                                                                                              > too, and the males in the tank are just going crazy! There's so
                                                                                                                                                                                              > much "shadowing" going on, then occasionally a burst of activity,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > this time I actually saw a few eggs released in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4757 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Maintaining pH

                                                                                                                                                                                              Rob,

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              Can’t say about vinegar as I also never heard about it but since it is a weak organic acid, it could. Don’t know if it can harm the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              I have previously used peat moss and the 15hr you mention depends a lot on the amount of peat moss you use. I had setup a 120L water butt with an eheim canister filter that was filled with peat moss and covered with filter floss for the purpose. Usually in 5-6 hours I was able to get the desired PH and if I let it run for longer, the PH would drop more then required. Since this process was messy and time consuming and my wife developed a dislike for the peat moss smell, I resorted to using API PH Down for the purpose. If you are treating water prior to adding in the tank, then I feel that stuff like PH down is perfectly safe. Just let the water sit there with a powerhead circulating it for about an hour and can proceed with the water changes. PH Down is diluted sulphuric acid and the end results will be no more then sulphate salts in the water. No organic pollutants, no slow acting organic acids etc. Some people may not like the idea of using diluted sulphuric acid in the water but then they don’t probably understand chemistry much.

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 03 September 2004 03:16
                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Maintaining pH

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              Could someone explain using white vinegar to me?  Do you really add this to the water? Does it really not harm the fish? I've just never hard of this before and I've done some major research on lowering the pH value. 

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              The best way I have found is peat moss from the garden center, but it's very time consuming and it would take like 15 hours just get to the 55 gallons I need, then a few hours a month to make enough water to do weekly water changes.  If anyone wants the information on how I filtered it let me know and I'll be happy to type in the info.

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              Robb

                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Maintaining pH

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                              Peat in the filter does work well, as in addition to lowering the pH, it also reduces the hardness, thereby reducing your water's buffering capacity and enabling it to stabilize at a lower pH without bouncing back up. You could use white vinegar to lower the pH as well; in actuality, vinegar is really diluted acetic acid -- this converts all CO3 to HCO3 and does reduce the pH. This may be too "chemical" for your use as you said you'd rather stay away from chemicals, but then, everything in this world is chemical (organic or not) whether it is an element or a compound. An alternate method of reducing the pH is with crushed Lava Rock in the filter. Its found at flower/greenhouse outlets and is used for certain Orchids. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4758 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                              I used white vinegar in my tank...one tablespoonful to my 20 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                              tank. It acidified the water quite well, in conjunction with peat in
                                                                                                                                                                                              the substrate and filter, and a couple of iron based rocks in the
                                                                                                                                                                                              water. It didn't seem to harm the fish at all. I did it because I
                                                                                                                                                                                              didn't know what else to do, and all the PH down was out of all the
                                                                                                                                                                                              petstores in the area (the city must have pretty soft water). Now I
                                                                                                                                                                                              use a fairly odd solution. I have a jug with lemon and lime rinds
                                                                                                                                                                                              and peat moss in it. I fill it with water and let it sit for a week
                                                                                                                                                                                              or so, then pour about a cup of that into the fresh water before I
                                                                                                                                                                                              add it to the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4759 From: emijer Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1 tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              all. Does anyone know what is causing this? Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              it is because the light is on all day and that it is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                              Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4760 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Maintaining pH
                                                                                                                                                                                              Robb, Glad to see you've had other responses to your pH question. I was also glad to see another favorable response in regards to white vinegar. Yes, it is fish safe, and is used much the same as API pH Down. As with anything new to you, use sparingly at first until you see its effect. Barring such costly methods as an R/O unit which will of course reduce your buffering capacity allowing the pH to drop faster and much more easily with the use of peat (or these other methods), you might also consider using an ion-exchange water softening pillow in conjunction with the peat. These rather inexpensive water softening pillows (rechargeable) will also reduce your buffering capacity by exchanging sodium ions for calcium & magnesium ions and are used in your filter. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4761 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                              Good advice on the potassium permanganate, but you might want to point out that at first, it will turn the water pinkish to purple depending upon how much is used. As it breaks down over the next few days, especially in the presence of any organic material, it will turn brownish. If the tank is stocked to capacity, it must be watched as the oxygen will be somewhat depleted. The discoloration can be cleared up with the use of carbon in the filter. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4762 From: AZRA® Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              Could it be ammonia. try using a active carbon or any substance to
                                                                                                                                                                                              remove it in your filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "emijer"
                                                                                                                                                                                              <emijer@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1 tiger, 1 yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                              one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > all. Does anyone know what is causing this? Someone suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                              that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > it is because the light is on all day and that it is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4763 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              I would say BDA- Brown dust algae deposits on the plastic plants. It is very
                                                                                                                                                                                              common in setups with improper light. Defiantly is it algae of some sort,
                                                                                                                                                                                              could also be brown algae or worse black brush algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: AZRAR [mailto:azra2001my@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 03 September 2004 17:48
                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >Could it be ammonia. try using a active carbon or any substance to
                                                                                                                                                                                              >remove it in your filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "emijer"
                                                                                                                                                                                              ><emijer@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1 tiger, 1 yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                              >one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> all. Does anyone know what is causing this? Someone suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                              >that
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> it is because the light is on all day and that it is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4764 From: Pam Berg Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                              Umm, this is a list to discuss fish, is it not? This petty bickering needs to be taken off list, I'm tired of seeing this nonsense. Please take your disagreement off list and grow up. Both of you.
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 7:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again

                                                                                                                                                                                              i think all day mister high and mighty.  i am a
                                                                                                                                                                                              college student working on my third degree, and should
                                                                                                                                                                                              not have to worry about my typing here.  i said
                                                                                                                                                                                              nothing about an ego, which i do not have, or at least
                                                                                                                                                                                              am not displaying my this statement.  you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                              challenging me at all by making smart ass comments
                                                                                                                                                                                              about using spell check.  i have no problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                              people giving their opinions, and you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                              challenging my intellect, or ego by trying to act
                                                                                                                                                                                              superior, you just make yourself look like an arrogant
                                                                                                                                                                                              ass who has nothing better to do than nit pick at
                                                                                                                                                                                              people.  my ego has nothing to do with my typing.
                                                                                                                                                                                              this is an aquarium forum not a masculinity assertion
                                                                                                                                                                                              forum.  stick to fish or don't bother me.

                                                                                                                                                                                              --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > I enjoy challenging people, it forces them to think.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Which in your case would be a major challenge. Just
                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fact that you would dispute that your colossal
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ego should be challenged proves my point. Is your
                                                                                                                                                                                              > name Paul(God)Helms or what?.

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:why do you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > try to piss people off?  this isnot a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > formal arena, requiring perfect typing.  90% of the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > posting on here contain errors, but i suppose that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > have never made a spelling mistake. KMA harry
                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > At the top of your page there is a spell check
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > button. Try using it, it isn't hard to use.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > something
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wong with the water to start.  i would reduce that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > temperature to 83 as high temperature s can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > stress on fish not suited for it.  did you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > remember
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > take the carbon out of the tank before traeting,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > as
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > removes the agents from your tanks.  also may be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > better to use something with either copper,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > kill anything without a backbone, but do not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > little
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > now. my green scat came with ick when i bought
                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive
                                                                                                                                                                                              > been
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                              > and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F. i
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > white spots on him now. the mono has developed
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > some
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come
                                                                                                                                                                                              > off?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >            
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                                                                                                                                                                              > to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > >  
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
                                                                                                                                                                                              > now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsordocument.write('');
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                                                              >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4765 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                              exactly what i said pam,
                                                                                                                                                                                              i am tired of this guy trying to start problems with
                                                                                                                                                                                              people. i was asked to join this group becuase i have
                                                                                                                                                                                              15 years of experience and work in the industry. all
                                                                                                                                                                                              i try to do here is to help where i can, and i have
                                                                                                                                                                                              this jerk telling me to use spell check when the
                                                                                                                                                                                              majority of the postings have errors. he is a petty
                                                                                                                                                                                              little boy that has nothing to do but bother people,
                                                                                                                                                                                              and i would much rather answer question, when i can,
                                                                                                                                                                                              without his interruptions of nonsense. as i said in
                                                                                                                                                                                              my last post to him, stick with fish or don't bother
                                                                                                                                                                                              me.
                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Pam Berg <luvmyscottie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Umm, this is a list to discuss fish, is it not? This
                                                                                                                                                                                              > petty bickering needs to be taken off list, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tired of seeing this nonsense. Please take your
                                                                                                                                                                                              > disagreement off list and grow up. Both of you.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 7:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] i
                                                                                                                                                                                              > hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > i think all day mister high and mighty. i am a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > college student working on my third degree, and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > should
                                                                                                                                                                                              > not have to worry about my typing here. i said
                                                                                                                                                                                              > nothing about an ego, which i do not have, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > least
                                                                                                                                                                                              > am not displaying my this statement. you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > challenging me at all by making smart ass comments
                                                                                                                                                                                              > about using spell check. i have no problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                              > people giving their opinions, and you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > challenging my intellect, or ego by trying to act
                                                                                                                                                                                              > superior, you just make yourself look like an
                                                                                                                                                                                              > arrogant
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ass who has nothing better to do than nit pick at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > people. my ego has nothing to do with my typing.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > this is an aquarium forum not a masculinity
                                                                                                                                                                                              > assertion
                                                                                                                                                                                              > forum. stick to fish or don't bother me.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I enjoy challenging people, it forces them to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > think.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Which in your case would be a major challenge.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Just
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the fact that you would dispute that your
                                                                                                                                                                                              > colossal
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > ego should be challenged proves my point. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                              > your
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > name Paul(God)Helms or what?.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:why do
                                                                                                                                                                                              > you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > try to piss people off? this isnot a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > formal arena, requiring perfect typing. 90% of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > posting on here contain errors, but i suppose
                                                                                                                                                                                              > that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > have never made a spelling mistake. KMA harry
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > At the top of your page there is a spell check
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > button. Try using it, it isn't hard to use.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > for one, if the fish has cloud eye, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > something
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > wong with the water to start. i would reduce
                                                                                                                                                                                              > that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > temperature to 83 as high temperature s can
                                                                                                                                                                                              > cause
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > stress on fish not suited for it. did you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > remember
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > take the carbon out of the tank before
                                                                                                                                                                                              > traeting,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > removes the agents from your tanks. also may
                                                                                                                                                                                              > be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > better to use something with either copper,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > blue (sp) or malacite green. these copper
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > derivitives
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > kill anything without a backbone, but do not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > scaled fish or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- hiphopdjdecal
                                                                                                                                                                                              > <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > ive had my green scat and mono argentus for
                                                                                                                                                                                              > a
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > little
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > now. my green scat came with ick when i
                                                                                                                                                                                              > bought
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > but i liked the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > fish so much i decided to just treat it. ive
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > been
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > using maracide by
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > mardel (on-spot treatment that treats the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > not the water)and
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > i turned up the water temp to about 84-85 F.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > i
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > actually see more
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > white spots on him now. the mono has
                                                                                                                                                                                              > developed
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > some
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > ick too and his
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > left eye is a little cloudy. i havent seen
                                                                                                                                                                                              > any
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > improvments the past
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > couple days. why wont this annoying ick come
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > off?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > all of them still
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > eat fine and swim normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Enter
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > now.
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                                                                                                                                                                                              > email
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > to:
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                              > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Enter
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4766 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              in my experience, when the algae is brown or rust
                                                                                                                                                                                              colored, it is due to insufficient light. an aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                              light is fine to be on 12 hours a day, and i ahev only
                                                                                                                                                                                              seen this algae when it is left on for 6-8 hours a
                                                                                                                                                                                              day. by increasing your lighting to 12 hours, the
                                                                                                                                                                                              algae present will eb green, and easier to deal with.
                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              --- emijer <emijer@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All are
                                                                                                                                                                                              > chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am
                                                                                                                                                                                              > noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting
                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > all. Does anyone know what is causing this?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > it is because the light is on all day and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                              > too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4767 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                              How do you rid yourself of algae in a planted tank? I have live plants in my one tank and I have algae slowing growing.I leave the lights on about 14 hours a day.They are regular aquarium/plant lights.Am I leaving the lights on too long??
                                                                                                                                                                                              Walt
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] rusty brown stuff

                                                                                                                                                                                              in my experience, when the algae is brown or rust
                                                                                                                                                                                              colored, it is due to insufficient light.  an aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                              light is fine to be on 12 hours a day, and i ahev only
                                                                                                                                                                                              seen this algae when it is left on for 6-8 hours a
                                                                                                                                                                                              day.  by increasing your lighting to 12 hours, the
                                                                                                                                                                                              algae present will eb green, and easier to deal with.
                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                              --- emijer <emijer@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind.  All are
                                                                                                                                                                                              > chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am
                                                                                                                                                                                              > noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown stuff.  Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting
                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > all.  Does anyone know what is causing this?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > it is because the light is on all day and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                              > too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > causing this stuff to grow.   any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >



                                                                                                                                                                                                         
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4768 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sorry, this doesn't answer your question but do you have plans for a larger
                                                                                                                                                                                              tank? Dempseys can grow to at least 8" and I can't think of a shark
                                                                                                                                                                                              appropriate for a 20g. It's not really a matter of overstocking but
                                                                                                                                                                                              inappropriate stocking, fish too large for the tank.


                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: "emijer" <emijer@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1 tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > all. Does anyone know what is causing this? Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > it is because the light is on all day and that it is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4769 From: Bubbles Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: New here....Hello :)
                                                                                                                                                                                              Hello Everyone :)

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm new here. Just thought I would introduce myself and say HELLO! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                              I have have 3 Aquariums that are (All Fresh Water). :)

                                                                                                                                                                                              The fish are Goldfish (the long tailed kind), Guppies and Neons.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Looking forward to meet everyone :)

                                                                                                                                                                                              - Sunshine :)
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4770 From: cgyguyca Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                              Paul..more than you using your spell check that guy needs to learn
                                                                                                                                                                                              some manners. There's always a sociopath around on some insane
                                                                                                                                                                                              personal agenda. It's something that a medically supervised
                                                                                                                                                                                              prescription drug regimen could help alleviate. Better yet, ignore
                                                                                                                                                                                              them or bless them and send them on their way.
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4771 From: emijer emijer Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              wow I was not aware of the size that dempsey's can get
                                                                                                                                                                                              and of course the fish store did not tell me this. I
                                                                                                                                                                                              do have a 45 gallon but just stocked that with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                              neons, 2 tetras, 4 danios, 1 molly and 1 bottom feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                              (not sure of the name) Should I switch the tanks or
                                                                                                                                                                                              will the 20 gallon be too small for these? Heidi




                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sorry, this doesn't answer your question but do you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > have plans for a larger
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank? Dempseys can grow to at least 8" and I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                              > think of a shark
                                                                                                                                                                                              > appropriate for a 20g. It's not really a matter of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > overstocking but
                                                                                                                                                                                              > inappropriate stocking, fish too large for the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: "emijer" <emijer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am
                                                                                                                                                                                              > noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sure what it is and it does not seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > all. Does anyone know what is causing this?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it is because the light is on all day and that it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >


                                                                                                                                                                                              =====






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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4772 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                              Walter, I've been experimenting with this myself. It seems that if I
                                                                                                                                                                                              leave brighter lights on for shorter periods of time, the plants grow
                                                                                                                                                                                              well, but the algae doesnt' If I use lower wattage lights and leave
                                                                                                                                                                                              them on longer than 12 hours, I get more algae. Also, the more
                                                                                                                                                                                              acidic the water, the less the algae seems to like it, especially if
                                                                                                                                                                                              there is plenty of iron available. Also, I keep some snails and
                                                                                                                                                                                              algae eating shrimp and fish in the aquariums, and they seem to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                              it down. I have some ribbon grass that is my indicator. If it is
                                                                                                                                                                                              growing algae on its leaves, I cut down the amount of light and check
                                                                                                                                                                                              the ph of the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                              > How do you rid yourself of algae in a planted tank? I have live
                                                                                                                                                                                              plants in my one tank and I have algae slowing growing.I leave the
                                                                                                                                                                                              lights on about 14 hours a day.They are regular aquarium/plant
                                                                                                                                                                                              lights.Am I leaving the lights on too long??
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Walt
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4773 From: Elyse Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              I would totally do a switch. Those fish will be just fine in a 20.


                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                              Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                                              elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.elyserachel.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              Ripley's page: http://www.dogster.com/dog_page.php?j=t&i=36163

                                                                                                                                                                                              AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                                              MSN: ElyseRachel@...
                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo: ElyseRachel@...

                                                                                                                                                                                              Chihuahua Rescue and Transport (CRT):
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.chihuahua-rescue.org
                                                                                                                                                                                              The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                              The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                                              PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.petfinder.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: emijer emijer [mailto:emijer@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 3:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: rusty brown stuff

                                                                                                                                                                                              wow I was not aware of the size that dempsey's can get
                                                                                                                                                                                              and of course the fish store did not tell me this. I
                                                                                                                                                                                              do have a 45 gallon but just stocked that with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                              neons, 2 tetras, 4 danios, 1 molly and 1 bottom feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                              (not sure of the name) Should I switch the tanks or
                                                                                                                                                                                              will the 20 gallon be too small for these? Heidi




                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sorry, this doesn't answer your question but do you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > have plans for a larger
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank? Dempseys can grow to at least 8" and I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                              > think of a shark
                                                                                                                                                                                              > appropriate for a 20g. It's not really a matter of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > overstocking but
                                                                                                                                                                                              > inappropriate stocking, fish too large for the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: "emijer" <emijer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am
                                                                                                                                                                                              > noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sure what it is and it does not seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > all. Does anyone know what is causing this?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it is because the light is on all day and that it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >


                                                                                                                                                                                              =====






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                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4774 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                              Cynthia, I have all Africans in my tank so I keep the PH around 8.0 I guess I could try going to 8.2 and see if the algae stops. Also I think I will get plain tubes for the lights.Something with a different light spectrum. Hopefully I don't kill the plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 2:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Algae

                                                                                                                                                                                              Walter, I've been experimenting with this myself.  It seems that if I
                                                                                                                                                                                              leave brighter lights on for shorter periods of time, the plants grow
                                                                                                                                                                                              well, but the algae doesnt'  If I use lower wattage lights and leave
                                                                                                                                                                                              them on longer than 12 hours, I get more algae.  Also, the more
                                                                                                                                                                                              acidic the water, the less the algae seems to like it, especially if
                                                                                                                                                                                              there is plenty of iron available.  Also, I keep some snails and
                                                                                                                                                                                              algae eating shrimp and fish in the aquariums, and they seem to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                              it down.  I have some ribbon grass that is my indicator.  If it is
                                                                                                                                                                                              growing algae on its leaves, I cut down the amount of light and check
                                                                                                                                                                                              the ph of the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                              > How do you rid yourself of algae in a planted tank? I have live
                                                                                                                                                                                              plants in my one tank and I have algae slowing growing.I leave the
                                                                                                                                                                                              lights on about 14 hours a day.They are regular aquarium/plant
                                                                                                                                                                                              lights.Am I leaving the lights on too long??
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Walt




                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4775 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                              Heidi, I had the rusty stuff also. I have no idea where it came from or where it went. I started a 125 and at the very end of the cycle this stuff appeared, then it went away on it's own.I raised the PH of that tank, so I think that was the reason for the disappearence of the brown junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                              Walt
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 1:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: rusty brown stuff

                                                                                                                                                                                              wow I was not aware of the size that dempsey's can get
                                                                                                                                                                                              and of course the fish store did not tell me this.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                              do have a 45 gallon but just stocked  that with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                              neons, 2 tetras, 4 danios, 1 molly and 1 bottom feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                              (not sure of the name)  Should I switch the tanks or
                                                                                                                                                                                              will the 20 gallon be too small for these? Heidi




                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sorry, this doesn't answer your question but do you
                                                                                                                                                                                              > have plans for a larger
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank? Dempseys can grow to at least 8" and I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                              > think of a shark
                                                                                                                                                                                              > appropriate for a 20g. It's not really a matter of
                                                                                                                                                                                              > overstocking but
                                                                                                                                                                                              > inappropriate stocking, fish too large for the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: "emijer" <emijer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                              > tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind.  All
                                                                                                                                                                                              > are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am
                                                                                                                                                                                              > noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown stuff.  Not
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sure what it is and it does not seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                              > affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > all.  Does anyone know what is causing this?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it is because the light is on all day and that it
                                                                                                                                                                                              > is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > causing this stuff to grow.   any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                              >


                                                                                                                                                                                              =====





                                                                                                                                                                                                         
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4776 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: THROW ME YOUR OPINIONS !!!!! *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                              Okay.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids books,
                                                                                                                                                                                              and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand, filter, and
                                                                                                                                                                                              light for $50.00 . I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                              doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                              stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one. I am going
                                                                                                                                                                                              to get a glass top and build a canopy. Add more lights. ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                              I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                              and am open to all of ya'lls opinions. All of them. I admit I
                                                                                                                                                                                              would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                              start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you think!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                              THANKS!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                              Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4777 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                    While I agree that more people should use their spell checker before they send a message, I don't think they should be called names if they don't.  Still, it is very helpful to read a well-written message and not one that has no capital letters or periods and only one space between the last and first words of two sentences (not that Paul writes that bad).  Americans seem to be losing their ability to write on the Internet, which makes our education system look bad. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4778 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                20 gallon would be fine for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- emijer emijer <emijer@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > wow I was not aware of the size that dempsey's can
                                                                                                                                                                                                > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and of course the fish store did not tell me this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > do have a 45 gallon but just stocked that with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                > neons, 2 tetras, 4 danios, 1 molly and 1 bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                > feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (not sure of the name) Should I switch the tanks or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > will the 20 gallon be too small for these? Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sorry, this doesn't answer your question but do
                                                                                                                                                                                                > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have plans for a larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank? Dempseys can grow to at least 8" and I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > think of a shark
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appropriate for a 20g. It's not really a matter of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > overstocking but
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > inappropriate stocking, fish too large for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > From: "emijer" <emijer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                > am
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > sure what it is and it does not seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > all. Does anyone know what is causing this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Someone suggested that
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it is because the light is on all day and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4779 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: i hate ick/To Paul Helms/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                i like you! lol

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- cgyguyca <ghost7@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul..more than you using your spell check that guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                > needs to learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                > some manners. There's always a sociopath around on
                                                                                                                                                                                                > some insane
                                                                                                                                                                                                > personal agenda. It's something that a medically
                                                                                                                                                                                                > supervised
                                                                                                                                                                                                > prescription drug regimen could help alleviate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Better yet, ignore
                                                                                                                                                                                                > them or bless them and send them on their way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4780 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                No advice or incorrect advice seems to be a problem with some fish stores.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I would definitely do the switch. The fish might seem ok in a small tank but
                                                                                                                                                                                                it can stunt their growth. You might want to research into what type of
                                                                                                                                                                                                bottom feeder you have to determine which tank is most appropriate for it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Good luck.



                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "emijer emijer" <emijer@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                > wow I was not aware of the size that dempsey's can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and of course the fish store did not tell me this. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > do have a 45 gallon but just stocked that with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                > neons, 2 tetras, 4 danios, 1 molly and 1 bottom feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (not sure of the name) Should I switch the tanks or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > will the 20 gallon be too small for these? Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4781 From: paul helms Date: 9/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                the dempsey can get a lot more than 8' inches too,
                                                                                                                                                                                                which is not a dispute, i realize that the previous
                                                                                                                                                                                                post said at least 8". i currently have one at work
                                                                                                                                                                                                about 12" in length.
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > No advice or incorrect advice seems to be a problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                > with some fish stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would definitely do the switch. The fish might
                                                                                                                                                                                                > seem ok in a small tank but
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it can stunt their growth. You might want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > research into what type of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > bottom feeder you have to determine which tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                > most appropriate for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: "emijer emijer" <emijer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wow I was not aware of the size that dempsey's can
                                                                                                                                                                                                > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and of course the fish store did not tell me this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > do have a 45 gallon but just stocked that with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > neons, 2 tetras, 4 danios, 1 molly and 1 bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                > feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > (not sure of the name) Should I switch the tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > will the 20 gallon be too small for these? Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4782 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: rusty brown stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                I came across this article on brown algae, they refer to it as diatom
                                                                                                                                                                                                algae

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/diatom.html#0

                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "emijer"
                                                                                                                                                                                                <emijer@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have a 20 gallon tank with 1 jack dempsey, 1 tiger, 1 yellow one,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and 1 shark and 1 more nnot sure what kind. All are chiclids or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > aggressive. The water is testing perfect, but i am noticing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > plastic plants and decoration I have this rusty brown stuff. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                > sure what it is and it does not seem to be affecting the fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                                > all. Does anyone know what is causing this? Someone suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                that
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it is because the light is on all day and that it is too long
                                                                                                                                                                                                > causing this stuff to grow. any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4783 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,

                                                                                                                                                                                                You may want to check with the local native fish people for answers. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                know that in MA, and here in VA, there are shrimp creatures that live
                                                                                                                                                                                                locally, and should, therefore, be able to survive the winter in ponds in
                                                                                                                                                                                                those areas, if they are not eaten first, and the pond is of the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                construction to allow your plants and fish overwinter in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] SHRIMP IN PONDS



                                                                                                                                                                                                shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs too.


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- blp2021 <blp2021@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                                                > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                                                > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                                                > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4784 From: harry perry Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                Dear Joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Contrary to current threads we don't yell at anyone. I have always had planted tanks. Once they are in balance, the fish seem to be happier and so am I because I get to design a pleasing aquascape. Years ago I set up a tank, it was beautiful. Fully planted,cost a bunch, in about two weeks time I had nothing more than a swamp on my hands. Why? I didn't research anything. It's not hard to get it right but you do need to consider the substrate vs. the lights vs. the plants. What??? Amount of light and match the plants to it. Most "hoods" are considered low light. If you buy plants that need bright light they will "melt" in two weeks time. There are many substrate options also. Perhaps the best way to go is to go to  http://paul.aaquaria.com/home/Home.htm This is not a commercial site. This guy is amazing. Only raises plants and brings them to bloom. Explore the site it's like a seminar on plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry  

                                                                                                                                                                                                Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                Okay. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids books,
                                                                                                                                                                                                and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand, filter, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                light for $50.00 .  I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                                doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one.  I am going
                                                                                                                                                                                                to get a glass top and build a canopy.  Add more lights.  ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                                I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                and am open to all of ya'lls opinions.  All of them.  I admit I
                                                                                                                                                                                                would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you think!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                THANKS!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy 



                                                                                                                                                                                                        



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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4785 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                Generally, letting objects to be placed in an aquarium will be made safe by
                                                                                                                                                                                                at least one sitting in a chlorine bleach solution for some time, rinsing
                                                                                                                                                                                                well and letting sun dry. However, not all things are suitable for use in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                aquarium. For instance the shells you wish to place will have the effect of
                                                                                                                                                                                                gradually raising the pH and hardness of the water in the aquarium. This may
                                                                                                                                                                                                be desired, in the case of keeping water alkaline as for rift lake fish, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                not, in the case of keeping South American fish, many of which come from
                                                                                                                                                                                                soft, acid water. Other objects will also have their own pros and cons.

                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: japanesegorilla05 [mailto:japanesegorilla05@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 1:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Making objects fish safe


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                                                years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                                                little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                                                this be alright?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jay






                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4786 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Making objects fish safe

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I've noticed crystals around the threads of chlorine-bleach containers, and consequently feel when using chlorine-bleach on porous material, air/sun drying could allow the retention of properties that result in those crystals. What I've done after soaking is rinse the stuff in hot water 'till the taint of chlorine is apparently gone, then boil the material in a stainless-steel pot to drive what may reside in the material into solution and evaporation. After that, I introduce slow running cold-water into the pot to gradually lower the temperature. When it's cool enough I add dechlorinator, stir with a sturdy instrument [I don't know what the chemical-properties of dechlorinator are if absorbed through the skin (and some of them contain chelators), so I worried about that and causing anemia], and let it sit for a while, then rinse thoroughly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Generally, letting objects to be placed in an aquarium will be made safe by
                                                                                                                                                                                                > at least one sitting in a chlorine bleach solution for some time, rinsing
                                                                                                                                                                                                > well and letting sun dry. However, not all things are suitable for use in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                > aquarium. For instance the shells you wish to place will have the effect of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > gradually raising the pH and hardness of the water in the aquarium. This may
                                                                                                                                                                                                > be desired, in the case of keeping water alkaline as for rift lake fish, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > not, in the case of keeping South American fish, many of which come from
                                                                                                                                                                                                > soft, acid water. Other objects will also have their own pros and cons.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: japanesegorilla05 [mailto:japanesegorilla05@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 1:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Making objects fish safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi all, I was just wondering how I would make something safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                > to my aquariums. I am most concerned about adding sea shells. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                > added one to my tank that I knew was safe because I had used it for
                                                                                                                                                                                                > years before hand, but I have several new ones that I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > add but I am hesitent. My mother suggested that I let them sit it a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > little bit of iodine water for a while and then adding them, would
                                                                                                                                                                                                > this be alright?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks for your time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4787 From: paul helms Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                i was not looking for shrimp to survive, but answering
                                                                                                                                                                                                a post. because of the limited size, depth, and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                flow of the average pond, most inverts that get put
                                                                                                                                                                                                into ponds end up eaten. there are generally not
                                                                                                                                                                                                enough places to hide, and the depth and lack of mud
                                                                                                                                                                                                at the bottom afford little protection for the little
                                                                                                                                                                                                critters, as they are easier to spot by the birds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                prey, racoons, possum, cats, and what have you. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                addition it may be illegal to harvest native species
                                                                                                                                                                                                from local reserves, and the interested parties would
                                                                                                                                                                                                have o check so that they do not get fined by local
                                                                                                                                                                                                fish and game.
                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > You may want to check with the local native fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > people for answers. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                > know that in MA, and here in VA, there are shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                > creatures that live
                                                                                                                                                                                                > locally, and should, therefore, be able to survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the winter in ponds in
                                                                                                                                                                                                > those areas, if they are not eaten first, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > pond is of the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                > construction to allow your plants and fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > overwinter in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] SHRIMP
                                                                                                                                                                                                > IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- blp2021 <blp2021@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN
                                                                                                                                                                                                > MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4788 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
                                                                                                                                                                                                This is a good lesson for everyone. When you buy a fish, research their
                                                                                                                                                                                                needs first, before the purchase. If you cannot give them what they need
                                                                                                                                                                                                when they reach adult size, then don't buy them. There are very few places
                                                                                                                                                                                                that will be able to take them off your hands and provide the proper care
                                                                                                                                                                                                for them. The exact species of nurse shark is not noted here, but they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                grow from 2 to 14 feet in length, depending on the species. I don't know of
                                                                                                                                                                                                many aquarists who have that kind of room for this fish, especially the 14
                                                                                                                                                                                                footers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Aaron [mailto:massagetherapist@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Free Nurse Sharks to good home


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Pet Extreme in Livermore CA, is giving away a pair of nurse sharks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                They are M&F almost 1 year old currently in a 780 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Pet Extreme (925) 373-XPET
                                                                                                                                                                                                4500 Arroyo Vista Drive, Livermore CA 94551 / 2840 Countryside
                                                                                                                                                                                                Drive, Turlock CA 95380 Tel. (209) 656-7085
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petextreme.com






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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4789 From: Aranel Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
                                                                                                                                                                                                Good lord, think how much it would cost to just *feed* them!

                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                Steve Szabo wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                This is a good lesson for everyone. When you buy a fish, research their
                                                                                                                                                                                                needs first, before the purchase. If you cannot give them what they need
                                                                                                                                                                                                when they reach adult size, then don't buy them. There are very few places
                                                                                                                                                                                                that will be able to take them off your hands and provide the proper care
                                                                                                                                                                                                for them. The exact species of nurse shark is not noted here, but they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                grow from 2 to 14 feet in length, depending on the species. I don't know of
                                                                                                                                                                                                many aquarists who have that kind of room for this fish, especially the 14
                                                                                                                                                                                                footers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Aaron [mailto:massagetherapist@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Free Nurse Sharks to good home


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Pet Extreme in Livermore CA, is giving away a pair of nurse sharks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                They are M&F almost 1 year old currently in a 780 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Pet Extreme (925) 373-XPET
                                                                                                                                                                                                4500 Arroyo Vista Drive, Livermore CA 94551 / 2840 Countryside
                                                                                                                                                                                                Drive, Turlock CA 95380 Tel. (209) 656-7085
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petextreme.com






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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4790 From: Aaron Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
                                                                                                                                                                                                yeah, I do not the exact species, but the guy did say they could get
                                                                                                                                                                                                up to 14 feet in the wild.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                                                                                                                <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > This is a good lesson for everyone. When you buy a fish, research
                                                                                                                                                                                                their
                                                                                                                                                                                                > needs first, before the purchase. If you cannot give them what they
                                                                                                                                                                                                need
                                                                                                                                                                                                > when they reach adult size, then don't buy them. There are very few
                                                                                                                                                                                                places
                                                                                                                                                                                                > that will be able to take them off your hands and provide the
                                                                                                                                                                                                proper care
                                                                                                                                                                                                > for them. The exact species of nurse shark is not noted here, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                > grow from 2 to 14 feet in length, depending on the species. I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                know of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > many aquarists who have that kind of room for this fish, especially
                                                                                                                                                                                                the 14
                                                                                                                                                                                                > footers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Free Nurse Sharks to good
                                                                                                                                                                                                home
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pet Extreme in Livermore CA, is giving away a pair of nurse sharks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > They are M&F almost 1 year old currently in a 780 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pet Extreme (925) 373-XPET
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 4500 Arroyo Vista Drive, Livermore CA 94551 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petextreme.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4791 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                Ooooh, nice site! I love it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4792 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: THROW ME YOUR OPINIONS !!!!! *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                Congrats on the find!

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry, I was a bit confused about your post...are you looking for plant or
                                                                                                                                                                                                fish suggestions for the tank?


                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Happy Happy Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                > I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids books,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand, filter, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > light for $50.00 . I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                > stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one. I am going
                                                                                                                                                                                                > to get a glass top and build a canopy. Add more lights. ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and am open to all of ya'lls opinions. All of them. I admit I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you think!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4793 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                Oh absolutly!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                I learned THAT lesson the first time I bought tetras. *grin* I
                                                                                                                                                                                                really dont understand WHY they even SELL standard aquarium hoods.
                                                                                                                                                                                                They dont give out anywhere NEAR the kind of light most aquairum
                                                                                                                                                                                                plants need. Though until I started my reserach I didnt even know
                                                                                                                                                                                                that low light plants existed. I guess I was really asking what
                                                                                                                                                                                                kind of plants people here enjoyed, substrates opinions, set-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                                theyve tried, what they love, hate, etc. grin. And I love to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                lots of opinions because it makes me consider all possiblities. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                think of things I wouldnt have otherwise (like co2....do you like
                                                                                                                                                                                                it, hate it, what problems have people had, the etc.). Im DYING to
                                                                                                                                                                                                head out to Village Tropical Fish in Houston cause they have a room
                                                                                                                                                                                                of planted display aquariums with about 5 different set up TYPES.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Very educational!!!! THANKS!!!! for the web site!!! I LOVE seeing
                                                                                                                                                                                                what other people are doing with their tanks, and thats gonna make
                                                                                                                                                                                                for some awesome reading!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Dear Joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Contrary to current threads we don't yell at anyone. I have always
                                                                                                                                                                                                had planted tanks. Once they are in balance, the fish seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                happier and so am I because I get to design a pleasing aquascape.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Years ago I set up a tank, it was beautiful. Fully planted,cost a
                                                                                                                                                                                                bunch, in about two weeks time I had nothing more than a swamp on my
                                                                                                                                                                                                hands. Why? I didn't research anything. It's not hard to get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                right but you do need to consider the substrate vs. the lights vs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                the plants. What??? Amount of light and match the plants to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Most "hoods" are considered low light. If you buy plants that need
                                                                                                                                                                                                bright light they will "melt" in two weeks time. There are many
                                                                                                                                                                                                substrate options also. Perhaps the best way to go is to go to
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://paul.aaquaria.com/home/Home.htm This is not a commercial
                                                                                                                                                                                                site. This guy is amazing. Only raises plants and brings them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                bloom. Explore the site it's like a seminar on plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Okay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                books,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand, filter, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > light for $50.00 . I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                > stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one. I am going
                                                                                                                                                                                                > to get a glass top and build a canopy. Add more lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                                ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and am open to all of ya'lls opinions. All of them. I admit I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                think!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > THANKS!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Get unlimited calls to
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > U.S./Canada
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Service.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4794 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: THROW ME YOUR OPINIONS !!!!! *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                Grin. Plant suggestions, set up suggestions, etc. Actully the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                are going to be an afterthought on this tank. I actully have a kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                of weird (well, other people think its weird...I dont, but they do)
                                                                                                                                                                                                theme I'm going for but since Ive never had plants in an aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                (other than food for snails - purposly) I was wondering what has
                                                                                                                                                                                                worked for other people. What they tried and wish they hadnt. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                they couldnt see living without. All that kind neat stuff. *grin*

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                (Yeah....I'm bouncy. grin. I have 2 toddlers and we ALL have
                                                                                                                                                                                                sineus infections. So I can be bouncy if I want to. giggle. Sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                beats the alternative!!!!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Congrats on the find!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sorry, I was a bit confused about your post...are you looking for
                                                                                                                                                                                                plant or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish suggestions for the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: "Happy Happy Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                books,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand, filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > light for $50.00 . I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one. I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                going
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to get a glass top and build a canopy. Add more lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                                ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and am open to all of ya'lls opinions. All of them. I admit I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                think!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4795 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Plants finally arrived
                                                                                                                                                                                                My mail order plants finally arrived today, after a week in tranist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Really, it wasn't the fault of the shipper, the postage proved he
                                                                                                                                                                                                shipped when he said he did, but the post office didn't cooperate and
                                                                                                                                                                                                they sat around for a week. He already promised to send me another
                                                                                                                                                                                                batch so I still hold him in high regard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Amazingly enough a few plants actually did survive the week in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                dark but much of it is mush now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The tank is looking good otherwise, the neons are having a ball with
                                                                                                                                                                                                the tank to themselves. I saw more spawing going on tonight,
                                                                                                                                                                                                different behavior than the previous spawing. And the catfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                having a grand time devouring those neon eggs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I believe that I have 7 females and 4 males, so the guys are having
                                                                                                                                                                                                to put in extra duty! Its great how the group stops schooling and
                                                                                                                                                                                                goes into the spawing mode.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Also I think I've seen the breeding male change color. You know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                neons have that stripe that is anywhere from blue to turquoise, well
                                                                                                                                                                                                the male who is doing the spawing his stripe turns a deep purple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                I've seen this happen several times now and think its a part of
                                                                                                                                                                                                spawing behavior.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4796 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: NIM: Altispinosus breeding colours?
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hey Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                Some of my B. Rams have developed fluorescent blue spots on their back
                                                                                                                                                                                                dorsal and anal fins. Also matching flouro stripes on their pectorals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm wondering if they're egg spots? Did yours have similar development?
                                                                                                                                                                                                So far 2 have the spots and the other two (smaller) don't.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                Tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4797 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                I've used DIY CO2 in the past. But it was really just an experiment as
                                                                                                                                                                                                there wasn't enough light over my tank to warrant it. Mind you my plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                growth is spectacular anyway. I'm more to the point of trying to slow
                                                                                                                                                                                                it down then anything else. I'm in the process of buying a new tank +
                                                                                                                                                                                                lots of light + CO2 when I can get all the bits together it's well
                                                                                                                                                                                                worth the effort if you have the light...

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tim


                                                                                                                                                                                                On 05/09/2004, at 1:35 PM, Happy Happy Joy Joy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Oh absolutly!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I learned THAT lesson the first time I bought tetras.  *grin*  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > really dont understand WHY they even SELL standard aquarium hoods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > They dont give out anywhere NEAR the kind of light most aquairum
                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants need.  Though until I started my reserach I didnt even know
                                                                                                                                                                                                > that low light plants existed.  I guess I was really asking what
                                                                                                                                                                                                > kind of plants people here enjoyed, substrates opinions, set-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                                > theyve tried, what they love, hate, etc.  grin.  And I love to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > lots of opinions because it makes me consider all possiblities.  And
                                                                                                                                                                                                > think of things I wouldnt have otherwise (like co2....do you like
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it, hate it, what problems have people had, the etc.).  Im DYING to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > head out to Village Tropical Fish in Houston cause they have a room
                                                                                                                                                                                                > of planted display aquariums with about 5 different set up TYPES. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Very educational!!!!  THANKS!!!! for the web site!!!  I LOVE seeing
                                                                                                                                                                                                > what other people are doing with their tanks, and thats gonna make
                                                                                                                                                                                                > for some awesome reading!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                > <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Dear Joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Contrary to current threads we don't yell at anyone. I have always
                                                                                                                                                                                                > had planted tanks. Once they are in balance, the fish seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                > happier and so am I because I get to design a pleasing aquascape.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Years ago I set up a tank, it was beautiful. Fully planted,cost a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > bunch, in about two weeks time I had nothing more than a swamp on my
                                                                                                                                                                                                > hands. Why? I didn't research anything. It's not hard to get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > right but you do need to consider the substrate vs. the lights vs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the plants. What??? Amount of light and match the plants to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Most "hoods" are considered low light. If you buy plants that need
                                                                                                                                                                                                > bright light they will "melt" in two weeks time. There are many
                                                                                                                                                                                                > substrate options also. Perhaps the best way to go is to go to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://paul.aaquaria.com/home/Home.htm This is not a commercial
                                                                                                                                                                                                > site. This guy is amazing. Only raises plants and brings them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > bloom. Explore the site it's like a seminar on plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Harry 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Okay. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                > books,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand, filter, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > light for $50.00 .  I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                > gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one.  I am going
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to get a glass top and build a canopy.  Add more lights. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and am open to all of ya'lls opinions.  All of them.  I admit I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                > think!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > THANKS!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Joy 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >         
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Get unlimited calls to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > U.S./Canada
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >  
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                                                                                                                                                                                                > Service.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4798 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Free Nurse Sharks to good home
                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I went to a Turlock pet store and they had a large shark in a tank and my first thought was "that things is gonna outgrow that tank and then where will it end up?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                I think the store needs to be more responsible and not keep stuff like that because they know there is very little demand for something that big unless you are making shark fin soup and fish tacos. It is doing dumb stuff like keeping that shark that gives the animal rights activists additional ammo to restrict pet ownership.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4799 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, for a substrate I like to use vermiculite, sand, and peat moss
                                                                                                                                                                                                with laterite. Soak the vermiculite and mix it thoroughly with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                peat (chunky peat works best for me, not finely milled...the finely
                                                                                                                                                                                                milled floats and causes problems) and laterite, then top that with
                                                                                                                                                                                                sand. I don't think I'll be using standard aquarium gravel as
                                                                                                                                                                                                substrate anymore, it's too hard to keep looking nice. Maybe as an
                                                                                                                                                                                                accent to the sand...

                                                                                                                                                                                                Java fern and java moss are the two easiest things to grow that I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                found. Mondo grass, though, needs a little babying, but is also very
                                                                                                                                                                                                nice. I adore the dwarf hair grass...it is so cute! The musa
                                                                                                                                                                                                bananas look awesome, but I'm having trouble doing them right. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                think they need pretty bright light. I also love those lovely
                                                                                                                                                                                                spherical algae balls, but plecostamus really do a number on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Oh absolutly!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4800 From: greywolfmm Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: What do my fish have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking itself as if
                                                                                                                                                                                                it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself against
                                                                                                                                                                                                the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4801 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you see timy white spots/bumps on the fish in the area they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                scratching?


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "greywolfmm"
                                                                                                                                                                                                <lists@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking itself as
                                                                                                                                                                                                if
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself against
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a
                                                                                                                                                                                                decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4802 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: What do my fish have?

                                                                                                                                                                                                   What little I remember about "flashing" (darting against objects in the tank, as if to scratch) and shimmies:

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shimmies; 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 poor water quality

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Flashing;

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 parasites.

                                                                                                                                                                                                ...........and I remember that from literature. Seems to me flashing could also occur if poor water conditions have broken down the 'slime-coat', and the pollutant/s is/are irritating the skin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                         What I'd do is check your PH, ammonia and nitrites. Check to see if there's uneaten food, or dead things in your tank, clean it and do a 50% water change. You could add water a little different than your water conditions, and gradually bring the changed water to the level recommended for the fish you have. Unless you actually SEE the parasites, if there are any, you should'nt treat for them, unless symptoms point in that direction after improving your water conditions.. Identifying them has always been hard for me. I've seen things in my tank that did'nt seem to bother the fish, and things that did bother, but were said to be harmless. Short of access to  a university, or abillity to use a microscope on that level, I don't think I could take most advice. There are things you can do to cope with parasites, but you should optimize your water conditions first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   JoeP


                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking itself as if
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself against
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4803 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                in addition to joes suggestions, i would check to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                sure that your heater has not cracked, and that none
                                                                                                                                                                                                of your electrical devices are discharging into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                water. an elctrical current could cause the shaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- greywolfmm <lists@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                > not sure what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was
                                                                                                                                                                                                > shaking itself as if
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush
                                                                                                                                                                                                > himself against
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                > against a decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4804 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                I just tagged into the thread, Paul, and you happened to be the lucky one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I am aware that there may be restrictions. If he (or she) does check with
                                                                                                                                                                                                the native fish people, they will be able to tell him about the rules and
                                                                                                                                                                                                regulations concerning collection of such critters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                You will also note I mentioned that locally collected critters may survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                the winter, if they survive the predation and the pond construction is such
                                                                                                                                                                                                to allow over wintering. There was no mention in the original post as to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                size of the pond nor the inhabitants, be they animal or vegetable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 1:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] SHRIMP IN PONDS


                                                                                                                                                                                                i was not looking for shrimp to survive, but answering
                                                                                                                                                                                                a post. because of the limited size, depth, and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                flow of the average pond, most inverts that get put
                                                                                                                                                                                                into ponds end up eaten. there are generally not
                                                                                                                                                                                                enough places to hide, and the depth and lack of mud
                                                                                                                                                                                                at the bottom afford little protection for the little
                                                                                                                                                                                                critters, as they are easier to spot by the birds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                prey, racoons, possum, cats, and what have you. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                addition it may be illegal to harvest native species
                                                                                                                                                                                                from local reserves, and the interested parties would
                                                                                                                                                                                                have o check so that they do not get fined by local
                                                                                                                                                                                                fish and game.
                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > You may want to check with the local native fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > people for answers. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                > know that in MA, and here in VA, there are shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                > creatures that live
                                                                                                                                                                                                > locally, and should, therefore, be able to survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the winter in ponds in
                                                                                                                                                                                                > those areas, if they are not eaten first, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > pond is of the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                > construction to allow your plants and fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > overwinter in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] SHRIMP
                                                                                                                                                                                                > IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- blp2021 <blp2021@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN
                                                                                                                                                                                                > MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4805 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                i don't know, the post was a week or so back, and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                don't recall.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > I just tagged into the thread, Paul, and you
                                                                                                                                                                                                > happened to be the lucky one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I am aware that there may be restrictions. If he (or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > she) does check with
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the native fish people, they will be able to tell
                                                                                                                                                                                                > him about the rules and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > regulations concerning collection of such critters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > You will also note I mentioned that locally
                                                                                                                                                                                                > collected critters may survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the winter, if they survive the predation and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > pond construction is such
                                                                                                                                                                                                > to allow over wintering. There was no mention in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > original post as to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > size of the pond nor the inhabitants, be they animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                > or vegetable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 1:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] SHRIMP
                                                                                                                                                                                                > IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > i was not looking for shrimp to survive, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                > answering
                                                                                                                                                                                                > a post. because of the limited size, depth, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                > flow of the average pond, most inverts that get put
                                                                                                                                                                                                > into ponds end up eaten. there are generally not
                                                                                                                                                                                                > enough places to hide, and the depth and lack of mud
                                                                                                                                                                                                > at the bottom afford little protection for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > little
                                                                                                                                                                                                > critters, as they are easier to spot by the birds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > prey, racoons, possum, cats, and what have you. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                > addition it may be illegal to harvest native species
                                                                                                                                                                                                > from local reserves, and the interested parties
                                                                                                                                                                                                > would
                                                                                                                                                                                                > have o check so that they do not get fined by local
                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish and game.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > You may want to check with the local native fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > people for answers. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > know that in MA, and here in VA, there are shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > creatures that live
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > locally, and should, therefore, be able to survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the winter in ponds in
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those areas, if they are not eaten first, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > pond is of the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > construction to allow your plants and fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > overwinter in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > SHRIMP
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                > too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- blp2021 <blp2021@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > CRABS?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4806 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah, the moss ball in my goldfish tank seems to not be living a
                                                                                                                                                                                                happy little life. I wonder about the temp they are happy at. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                seller I got them from say anywhere between approx. 65 and 90, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                thats GOT to be a mistake. The goldfish seems to leave the java
                                                                                                                                                                                                ferns alone though. grin. I cant even FIND java moss down here!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm worred over substrate so thank you very much for sharing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                grin. Luckily I have a month to soak all my decorations, so it
                                                                                                                                                                                                gives me time to plan and decide. Im kinda wondering if I should
                                                                                                                                                                                                just bypass the heartache and worry buy just using flourite, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                biocomplete. I do like some pea gravel mixed in though. I wish
                                                                                                                                                                                                tomorrow wasnt a holiday as all the shops are BOUND to be closed and
                                                                                                                                                                                                Im just HOPPING to make a trip to houston and check out all thouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                set-ups and compare. Thats a really cool idea for a fish store
                                                                                                                                                                                                cause it gives people a chance to just stand there and really
                                                                                                                                                                                                compare and DECIDE what it is they actully LIKE cause Im hoping to
                                                                                                                                                                                                not have to set up and rip out and do over, again and again. To be
                                                                                                                                                                                                honest I'm happy even just walking by the empty tank and planning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Giggle. I know that sounds odd, but this set up is gonna be
                                                                                                                                                                                                my "dream tank" and Im excited. Gonna take time and look around,
                                                                                                                                                                                                and do research, and ask questions in the meantime though!!!! *grin*

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well, for a substrate I like to use vermiculite, sand, and peat
                                                                                                                                                                                                moss
                                                                                                                                                                                                > with laterite. Soak the vermiculite and mix it thoroughly with
                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > peat (chunky peat works best for me, not finely milled...the
                                                                                                                                                                                                finely
                                                                                                                                                                                                > milled floats and causes problems) and laterite, then top that
                                                                                                                                                                                                with
                                                                                                                                                                                                > sand. I don't think I'll be using standard aquarium gravel as
                                                                                                                                                                                                > substrate anymore, it's too hard to keep looking nice. Maybe as
                                                                                                                                                                                                an
                                                                                                                                                                                                > accent to the sand...
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Java fern and java moss are the two easiest things to grow that
                                                                                                                                                                                                I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                > found. Mondo grass, though, needs a little babying, but is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                very
                                                                                                                                                                                                > nice. I adore the dwarf hair grass...it is so cute! The musa
                                                                                                                                                                                                > bananas look awesome, but I'm having trouble doing them right. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > think they need pretty bright light. I also love those lovely
                                                                                                                                                                                                > spherical algae balls, but plecostamus really do a number on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Oh absolutly!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4807 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: SHRIMP IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                I DESPISE my neighbors cat for this VERY reason. *growel*

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > i was not looking for shrimp to survive, but answering
                                                                                                                                                                                                > a post. because of the limited size, depth, and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                > flow of the average pond, most inverts that get put
                                                                                                                                                                                                > into ponds end up eaten. there are generally not
                                                                                                                                                                                                > enough places to hide, and the depth and lack of mud
                                                                                                                                                                                                > at the bottom afford little protection for the little
                                                                                                                                                                                                > critters, as they are easier to spot by the birds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > prey, racoons, possum, cats, and what have you. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                > addition it may be illegal to harvest native species
                                                                                                                                                                                                > from local reserves, and the interested parties would
                                                                                                                                                                                                > have o check so that they do not get fined by local
                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish and game.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Steve Szabo <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > You may want to check with the local native fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > people for answers. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > know that in MA, and here in VA, there are shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > creatures that live
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > locally, and should, therefore, be able to survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the winter in ponds in
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those areas, if they are not eaten first, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > pond is of the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > construction to allow your plants and fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > overwinter in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] SHRIMP
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > IN PONDS
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > shrimp are going to get hunted in a pond, crabs too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- blp2021 <blp2021@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ARE THERE ANY SHRIMP THAT CAN LIVE IN
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > MEDIUM-LARGE,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > SELF-CONTAINED
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > WATER GARDEN PONDS, THAT CAN SURVIVE PHOENIX
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > WINTERS? HOW ABOUT
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4808 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                So you and I are both in the excited PLANNING stage!!! *grin* So
                                                                                                                                                                                                what are your plans for the tank??? Anything specific in mind???
                                                                                                                                                                                                Remember mine is weirder than yours, so I promise not to giggle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                grin

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                                                <twalker@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I've used DIY CO2 in the past. But it was really just an
                                                                                                                                                                                                experiment as
                                                                                                                                                                                                > there wasn't enough light over my tank to warrant it. Mind you my
                                                                                                                                                                                                plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                > growth is spectacular anyway. I'm more to the point of trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                slow
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it down then anything else. I'm in the process of buying a new
                                                                                                                                                                                                tank +
                                                                                                                                                                                                > lots of light + CO2 when I can get all the bits together it's well
                                                                                                                                                                                                > worth the effort if you have the light...
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > On 05/09/2004, at 1:35 PM, Happy Happy Joy Joy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Oh absolutly!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I learned THAT lesson the first time I bought tetras.  *grin*  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > really dont understand WHY they even SELL standard aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                hoods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > They dont give out anywhere NEAR the kind of light most aquairum
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants need.  Though until I started my reserach I didnt even
                                                                                                                                                                                                know
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that low light plants existed.  I guess I was really asking what
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > kind of plants people here enjoyed, substrates opinions, set-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > theyve tried, what they love, hate, etc.  grin.  And I love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > lots of opinions because it makes me consider all
                                                                                                                                                                                                possiblities.  And
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > think of things I wouldnt have otherwise (like co2....do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                like
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it, hate it, what problems have people had, the etc.).  Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                DYING to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > head out to Village Tropical Fish in Houston cause they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                room
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of planted display aquariums with about 5 different set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                TYPES. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Very educational!!!!  THANKS!!!! for the web site!!!  I LOVE
                                                                                                                                                                                                seeing
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what other people are doing with their tanks, and thats gonna
                                                                                                                                                                                                make
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for some awesome reading!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Dear Joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Contrary to current threads we don't yell at anyone. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                always
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > had planted tanks. Once they are in balance, the fish seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > happier and so am I because I get to design a pleasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                aquascape.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Years ago I set up a tank, it was beautiful. Fully planted,cost
                                                                                                                                                                                                a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bunch, in about two weeks time I had nothing more than a swamp
                                                                                                                                                                                                on my
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hands. Why? I didn't research anything. It's not hard to get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right but you do need to consider the substrate vs. the lights
                                                                                                                                                                                                vs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the plants. What??? Amount of light and match the plants to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Most "hoods" are considered low light. If you buy plants that
                                                                                                                                                                                                need
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bright light they will "melt" in two weeks time. There are many
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > substrate options also. Perhaps the best way to go is to go to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://paul.aaquaria.com/home/Home.htm This is not a commercial
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > site. This guy is amazing. Only raises plants and brings them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bloom. Explore the site it's like a seminar on plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Harry 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Okay. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I was digging through garage sales last week looking for kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > books,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and I found a 30 gallon tank (36" x 12" x 16"), stand,
                                                                                                                                                                                                filter, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > light for $50.00 .  I am scraping the VERY nice stand cause it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > doesnt have a spot for a 10 gallon hospital tank (My moms 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > stand has that and I LOVE it), and building a new one.  I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                going
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to get a glass top and build a canopy.  Add more lights. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ANYWAY....
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I want to make it a PLANTED tank, something COMPLETELY new to
                                                                                                                                                                                                me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and am open to all of ya'lls opinions.  All of them.  I admit
                                                                                                                                                                                                I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > would like to start with at least semi hardy plant, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > start right so everyone yell at me and let me know what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > think!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > THANKS!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Joy 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4809 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
                                                                                                                                                                                                Wouldnt it just SUCK though to be a guy that changed colors when he
                                                                                                                                                                                                was in the mood ???? Sorry. Silly, I know. But I couldnt HELP the
                                                                                                                                                                                                picture of guys turning purple when they walk by a cute girl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                *giggle* *grin*

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Im getting old and am easily amused.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > My mail order plants finally arrived today, after a week in
                                                                                                                                                                                                tranist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Really, it wasn't the fault of the shipper, the postage proved he
                                                                                                                                                                                                > shipped when he said he did, but the post office didn't cooperate
                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > they sat around for a week. He already promised to send me another
                                                                                                                                                                                                > batch so I still hold him in high regard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Amazingly enough a few plants actually did survive the week in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                > dark but much of it is mush now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The tank is looking good otherwise, the neons are having a ball
                                                                                                                                                                                                with
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the tank to themselves. I saw more spawing going on tonight,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > different behavior than the previous spawing. And the catfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                > having a grand time devouring those neon eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I believe that I have 7 females and 4 males, so the guys are
                                                                                                                                                                                                having
                                                                                                                                                                                                > to put in extra duty! Its great how the group stops schooling and
                                                                                                                                                                                                > goes into the spawing mode.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Also I think I've seen the breeding male change color. You know
                                                                                                                                                                                                how
                                                                                                                                                                                                > neons have that stripe that is anywhere from blue to turquoise,
                                                                                                                                                                                                well
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the male who is doing the spawing his stripe turns a deep purple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I've seen this happen several times now and think its a part of
                                                                                                                                                                                                > spawing behavior.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4810 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                but since Im asking a question about my mom's tank (me not HAVING a
                                                                                                                                                                                                saltwater tank and therefore not on any saltwater list) I thought Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for saltwater fish to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS to me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus could SURVIVE in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                with that much salt in it (she checks it obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                problem she has is getting the temp down below 80 degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this one she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but its her fish and if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                can help, I want to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for not flamming me for asking a saltwater question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                freshwater list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4811 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                there is absolutely salt water bacteria. everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                that can happen in salt can happen in fresh. in fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                it is the same things, just different strains of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                the fresh water stuff is killed by salt water and vice
                                                                                                                                                                                                versa. i am actually more into saltwater these days
                                                                                                                                                                                                and it is refreshing to see saltwater questions. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                itis bacterial or fungal, you can use melafix, if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                is a paracite, like ich or velvet, you will need a
                                                                                                                                                                                                copper based remedy, malchite green or methalene blue

                                                                                                                                                                                                (sp). just make sure not to put anything containing
                                                                                                                                                                                                copper in the tank if there is anything without a
                                                                                                                                                                                                backbone, such as coral, pollyps, mushroom, anemone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                shrimp, starfish, etc, as it will kill them along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                teh parasites.
                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                > freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > but since Im asking a question about my mom's tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (me not HAVING a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > saltwater tank and therefore not on any saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                > list) I thought Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for
                                                                                                                                                                                                > saltwater fish to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus could
                                                                                                                                                                                                > SURVIVE in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                > with that much salt in it (she checks it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem she has is getting the temp down below 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                > degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this one
                                                                                                                                                                                                > she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but its
                                                                                                                                                                                                > her fish and if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                > question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4812 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, this is in her 30 gallon tank. She just bought a 55 gallon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                IT'S stand has a place for, and came with a hospital tank, so she
                                                                                                                                                                                                DOES have a place to move it to while she doses it. *happy happy*
                                                                                                                                                                                                I am not sure (and will dig out the books with lots of pictures)
                                                                                                                                                                                                what it is growing on him, but I SWEAR it looks just like tiny white
                                                                                                                                                                                                tuffs of fungus !!!! Thank you SO MUCH for answering this
                                                                                                                                                                                                question. I really wasnt sure what to tell her, or how to help. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                shall pass on the info!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME (and letting me pick your brain!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                *grin*)

                                                                                                                                                                                                Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > there is absolutely salt water bacteria. everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                > that can happen in salt can happen in fresh. in fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                > it is the same things, just different strains of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fresh water stuff is killed by salt water and vice
                                                                                                                                                                                                > versa. i am actually more into saltwater these days
                                                                                                                                                                                                > and it is refreshing to see saltwater questions. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                > itis bacterial or fungal, you can use melafix, if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > is a paracite, like ich or velvet, you will need a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > copper based remedy, malchite green or methalene blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (sp). just make sure not to put anything containing
                                                                                                                                                                                                > copper in the tank if there is anything without a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > backbone, such as coral, pollyps, mushroom, anemone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > shrimp, starfish, etc, as it will kill them along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                > teh parasites.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but since Im asking a question about my mom's tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > (me not HAVING a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > saltwater tank and therefore not on any saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > list) I thought Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > saltwater fish to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS to
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus could
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > SURVIVE in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with that much salt in it (she checks it
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem she has is getting the temp down below 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this one
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but its
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > her fish and if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4813 From: japanesegorilla05 Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi all, I have a Regent brand filter that came with my 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                aquarium kit from walmart. I have an odd feeling that it is somewhat
                                                                                                                                                                                                inadequate for my needs, not too mention that I am tired of changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                filter cartridges. I just wondered if I could take some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                leftover pond filter media and replace the carbon filter with that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                and once the bacteria gets established I wouldn't have to change it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Naturally I would have to add it in with the carbon cartridge until
                                                                                                                                                                                                bacteria grows on it or my fish wouldn't live, but it seems like it
                                                                                                                                                                                                would work. Let me know what you think.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4814 From: greywolfmm Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                No, I don't see any white spots. If they did, would that be ich?

                                                                                                                                                                                                My ammonia is at zero. Nitrites are a little high so I did a major
                                                                                                                                                                                                cleaning of the tank a few days ago and added some aquarium salt just
                                                                                                                                                                                                in case. I did a 40 percent water change after the cleaning.


                                                                                                                                                                                                Kevin


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you see timy white spots/bumps on the fish in the area they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                > scratching?
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "greywolfmm"
                                                                                                                                                                                                > <lists@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking itself as
                                                                                                                                                                                                > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself against
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a
                                                                                                                                                                                                > decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4815 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                      So you are 1/2 way through the initial cycle.  There are several methods of dealing with this, I am sure others will give you theirs but here is my suggestion. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      If the nitrites get above 1, do a 25% water change.  For every 5 gallons you remove, add 1 tsp of plain salt (pure NaCl) to help their gills.  The bad news is that doing a water change might slow the cycle, but the good news is that it should also help the fish by lowering the nitrites. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      White spots would probably mean ich, but the treatment for nitrite poisoning and ich (and most other diseases fish get) is the same.  Water changes and increased heat.  Bring it up to about 82°F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  No, I don't see any white spots.  If they did, would that be ich?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My ammonia is at zero.  Nitrites are a little high so I did a major
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cleaning of the tank a few days ago and added some aquarium salt just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  in case.  I did a 40 percent water change after the cleaning.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4816 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                        My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came with an upgrade to a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.  I bet yours didn't come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I have no idea why mine did! :)  I quit changing my cartridges right after buying a 6 pack and seeing the prices.  I removed the carbon and I just was them in tank water when they start getting clogged.  So far it's probably been over 6 months since I changed one, and don't see changing one again for at least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged very much.  I have also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags and put those into the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove the carbon (not needed 90% of the time).  And you can easily use all kinds of stuff in there.  You might need to cut the filter floss off the cartridge and just use the plastic part to hold the new filter media in and keep it from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all, I have a Regent brand filter that came with my 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquarium kit from walmart. I have an odd feeling that it is somewhat
                                                                                                                                                                                                    inadequate for my needs, not too mention that I am tired of changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                    filter cartridges. I just wondered if I could take some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                    leftover pond filter media and replace the carbon filter with that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    and once the bacteria gets established I wouldn't have to change it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Naturally I would have to add it in with the carbon cartridge until
                                                                                                                                                                                                    bacteria grows on it or my fish wouldn't live, but it seems like it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    would work. Let me know what you think.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4817 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: What do my fish have?

                                                                                                                                                                                                       You did'nt mention PH, and did you add plants of new fish recently? How long have you had your fish/tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > No, I don't see any white spots. If they did, would that be ich?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My ammonia is at zero. Nitrites are a little high so I did a major
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cleaning of the tank a few days ago and added some aquarium salt just
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in case. I did a 40 percent water change after the cleaning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do you see timy white spots/bumps on the fish in the area they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > scratching?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "greywolfmm"
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking itself as
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself against
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4818 From: paul helms Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    if you can take a pic of the fish, we can look at it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    and may be able to tell you what it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Well, this is in her 30 gallon tank. She just
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bought a 55 gallon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > IT'S stand has a place for, and came with a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank, so she
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > DOES have a place to move it to while she doses it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > *happy happy*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am not sure (and will dig out the books with lots
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of pictures)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what it is growing on him, but I SWEAR it looks just
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > like tiny white
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tuffs of fungus !!!! Thank you SO MUCH for
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > answering this
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > question. I really wasnt sure what to tell her, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > how to help. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > shall pass on the info!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME (and letting me pick
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your brain!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > *grin*)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > there is absolutely salt water bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > that can happen in salt can happen in fresh. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it is the same things, just different strains of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the fresh water stuff is killed by salt water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > vice
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > versa. i am actually more into saltwater these
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > days
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and it is refreshing to see saltwater questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > itis bacterial or fungal, you can use melafix, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is a paracite, like ich or velvet, you will need a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > copper based remedy, malchite green or methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (sp). just make sure not to put anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > containing
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > copper in the tank if there is anything without a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > backbone, such as coral, pollyps, mushroom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anemone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > shrimp, starfish, etc, as it will kill them along
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > teh parasites.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > but since Im asking a question about my mom's
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > (me not HAVING a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > saltwater tank and therefore not on any
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > list) I thought Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > saltwater fish to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > SURVIVE in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > with that much salt in it (she checks it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > problem she has is getting the temp down below
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > its
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > her fish and if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4819 From: Aranel Date: 9/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a couple of questions. I too have been screaming at the prices of those filters from Wal-mart for about three years now. I don't have any Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech. How would I go about taking the carbon out of those filters without rendering them useless? (I've tried before when I needed to use medications in the water.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just regular sponges that you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope I'm not being annoying. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Aranel


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                        My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came with an upgrade to a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.  I bet yours didn't come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I have no idea why mine did! :)  I quit changing my cartridges right after buying a 6 pack and seeing the prices.  I removed the carbon and I just was them in tank water when they start getting clogged.  So far it's probably been over 6 months since I changed one, and don't see changing one again for at least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged very much.  I have also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags and put those into the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove the carbon (not needed 90% of the time).  And you can easily use all kinds of stuff in there.  You might need to cut the filter floss off the cartridge and just use the plastic part to hold the new filter media in and keep it from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4820 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    That is a very nice suggestion Paul. I will try to find the digy
                                                                                                                                                                                                    cam tomorrow. (we've had a sinis infection and Im just getting back
                                                                                                                                                                                                    to normal, so I MIGHT have to search a little, but bear with me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ill get that done !!! grin)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you again, so much. grin

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > if you can take a pic of the fish, we can look at it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and may be able to tell you what it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Well, this is in her 30 gallon tank. She just
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bought a 55 gallon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > IT'S stand has a place for, and came with a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank, so she
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > DOES have a place to move it to while she doses it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *happy happy*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I am not sure (and will dig out the books with lots
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of pictures)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what it is growing on him, but I SWEAR it looks just
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > like tiny white
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tuffs of fungus !!!! Thank you SO MUCH for
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > answering this
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > question. I really wasnt sure what to tell her, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > how to help. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > shall pass on the info!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME (and letting me pick
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > your brain!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *grin*)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > there is absolutely salt water bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > that can happen in salt can happen in fresh. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > it is the same things, just different strains of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the fresh water stuff is killed by salt water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > vice
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > versa. i am actually more into saltwater these
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > days
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > and it is refreshing to see saltwater questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > itis bacterial or fungal, you can use melafix, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is a paracite, like ich or velvet, you will need a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > copper based remedy, malchite green or methalene
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > (sp). just make sure not to put anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > containing
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > copper in the tank if there is anything without a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > backbone, such as coral, pollyps, mushroom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > anemone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > shrimp, starfish, etc, as it will kill them along
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > teh parasites.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > but since Im asking a question about my mom's
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > (me not HAVING a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > saltwater tank and therefore not on any
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > list) I thought Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > saltwater fish to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > SURVIVE in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > with that much salt in it (she checks it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > problem she has is getting the temp down below
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > its
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > her fish and if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4821 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: nitrite question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ok so im still cycling my tank. its been about a month now and my
                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrites have stayed at around 2.0 ppm for the past 4 or 5 days now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    how much longer are these bacteria guys gonna take. when will i hit
                                                                                                                                                                                                    0 ppm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4822 From: paul helms Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: nitrite question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    the cycle takes 4-6 weeks, if you are only at 4, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                    probably have another 2 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ok so im still cycling my tank. its been about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > month now and my
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrites have stayed at around 2.0 ppm for the past
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 4 or 5 days now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > how much longer are these bacteria guys gonna take.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > when will i hit
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 0 ppm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4823 From: paul helms Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                    i don't understand why people are so upset about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    price of the filter pads? how much are you paying? in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ca the filter pads for regents are only about $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are made by the same company. yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                    that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                    makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > those filters from Wal-mart for about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (I've tried before when I needed to use medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > did! :) I quit changing my cartridges right after
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > seeing the prices. I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > water when they start getting clogged. So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > very much. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > needed 90% of the time). And you can easily use
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > there. You might need to cut the filter floss off
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > just use the plastic part to hold the new filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *About my tanks: *
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4824 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I used cheap car wash sponges from the local w-mart but I think they changed the type of sponge they use to a new material.  The best place would be buy a filter sponge from an lfs.  Aquatech is what we are talking about when we say Regent.  The box says aquatech but the filter itself says Regent on the cover over the cartridge box. :)  The Whispers I have seen and used come with put-it-together-yourself-cartridges, so all you would have to do is take it apart and empty out the floss part.  You can also get sponge inserts for those now.  On the A-T Regent, I just cut a slit in the top of the floss all the way across the top and shook out the carbon and washed it well to get the rest out of it.  If it has trouble after that it can be sewed back on with fishing line, but I have never had trouble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a couple of questions. I too have been screaming at the prices of those filters from Wal-mart for about three years now. I don't have any Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech. How would I go about taking the carbon out of those filters without rendering them useless? (I've tried before when I needed to use medications in the water.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just regular sponges that you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope I'm not being annoying. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4825 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy, my darling DH tells me there is no point to a guy turning purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      when he's in the mood...cause they'd just be purple all the time! LOL


                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wouldnt it just SUCK though to be a guy that changed colors when he
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > was in the mood ???? Sorry. Silly, I know. But I couldnt HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                      the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > picture of guys turning purple when they walk by a cute girl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > *giggle* *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Im getting old and am easily amused.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4826 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Giggle. Yeah that was almost my thought. Though Ive watched WAY
                                                                                                                                                                                                      too much early Star Trek eposiodes in my life to NOT find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thought of a purple guy (maybe flashing with a little bell or
                                                                                                                                                                                                      buzzer ???)HIGHLY entertaining. grin. Though I would feel SOOOOOO
                                                                                                                                                                                                      sorry for them (even though Im giggling). I think, all-in-all, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                      girls REALLY lucked out compared to guys with what we are thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                      being visable. grin. We turn red sometimes. We giggle. I remeber
                                                                                                                                                                                                      a kid I went to summer camp who felt the need to DUCK TAPE himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      down EVERYTIME he got NEAR a cute, tiny, blond girl who was in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                      bunk house. *shake head* *sigh* Poor, silly, little adolescent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                      brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy, my darling DH tells me there is no point to a guy turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                      purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > when he's in the mood...cause they'd just be purple all the time!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Wouldnt it just SUCK though to be a guy that changed colors when
                                                                                                                                                                                                      he
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > was in the mood ???? Sorry. Silly, I know. But I couldnt HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > picture of guys turning purple when they walk by a cute girl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > *giggle* *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Im getting old and am easily amused.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4827 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Giggle. Yeah that was almost my thought. Though Ive watched WAY
                                                                                                                                                                                                      too much early Star Trek eposiodes in my life to NOT find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thought of a purple guy (maybe flashing with a little bell or
                                                                                                                                                                                                      buzzer ???)HIGHLY entertaining. grin. Though I would feel SOOOOOO
                                                                                                                                                                                                      sorry for them (even though Im giggling). I think, all-in-all, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                      girls REALLY lucked out compared to guys with what we are thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                      being visable. grin. We turn red sometimes. We giggle. I remeber
                                                                                                                                                                                                      a kid I went to summer camp who felt the need to DUCK TAPE himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      down EVERYTIME he got NEAR a cute, tiny, blond girl who was in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                      bunk house. *shake head* *sigh* Poor, silly, little adolescent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                      brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy, my darling DH tells me there is no point to a guy turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                      purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > when he's in the mood...cause they'd just be purple all the time!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Wouldnt it just SUCK though to be a guy that changed colors when
                                                                                                                                                                                                      he
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > was in the mood ???? Sorry. Silly, I know. But I couldnt HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > picture of guys turning purple when they walk by a cute girl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > *giggle* *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Im getting old and am easily amused.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4828 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                      See thats good to know. giggle. I WONDERED why my regent filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      pad just HAPPENED to fit the penguin that came to me in the mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                      with no filter cartridge. giggle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since I only change my carbon out once a month it doesnt bother me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      but Im enjoying hearing what other people used instead of carbon. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      always wondered how much it cost to use carbon of a 100+ tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      *shudder* But then if you cant afford a 100 gallon, you shouldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      have one. I dont have one, and dont see myself getting one, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thats cool for some people. (Personally Im kinda afraid it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                      WAY too much of a temptation for my kids.....they like to swim)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Im getting the impression that the only time you really need CARBON
                                                                                                                                                                                                      is to take meds outta a tank, so it would be good on a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank, but not of much use on a regular tank. That a normal tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      should have a good bacteria colony, plants, regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      and not be overstocked. Correct me if Im wrong. I learn fast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      grin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I MUST make this comment.....There is SO much more information out
                                                                                                                                                                                                      there NOW than there was 30 years ago. When I was a kid and had
                                                                                                                                                                                                      turtles I couldnt even IDENTIFY them all because there WAS no
                                                                                                                                                                                                      internet, the library didnt have anywhere NEAR the books on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      subjects they do now. Its just AMAZING!!!! Its AWESOME the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      information that is at the fingertips of an aquatic hobbiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                      compared to when I had fish 25 years ago!!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                      <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i don't understand why people are so upset about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > price of the filter pads? how much are you paying? in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ca the filter pads for regents are only about $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they are made by the same company. yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- Aranel <aranel@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > those filters from Wal-mart for about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > (I've tried before when I needed to use medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > did! :) I quit changing my cartridges right after
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > seeing the prices. I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > water when they start getting clogged. So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > very much. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > needed 90% of the time). And you can easily use
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > there. You might need to cut the filter floss off
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > just use the plastic part to hold the new filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *About my tanks: *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4829 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple

                                                                                                                                                                                                         Would'nt turning purple or blue, in a human male, indicate sudden inability to survive without medical assistance?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joe P 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Giggle. Yeah that was almost my thought. Though Ive watched WAY
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > too much early Star Trek eposiodes in my life to NOT find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thought of a purple guy (maybe flashing with a little bell or
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > buzzer ???)HIGHLY entertaining. grin. Though I would feel SOOOOOO
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sorry for them (even though Im giggling). I think, all-in-all, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > girls REALLY lucked out compared to guys with what we are thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > being visable. grin. We turn red sometimes. We giggle. I remeber
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a kid I went to summer camp who felt the need to DUCK TAPE himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > down EVERYTIME he got NEAR a cute, tiny, blond girl who was in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bunk house. *shake head* *sigh* Poor, silly, little adolescent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > brennemann" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joy, my darling DH tells me there is no point to a guy turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > when he's in the mood...cause they'd just be purple all the time!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Wouldnt it just SUCK though to be a guy that changed colors when
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > he
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > was in the mood ???? Sorry. Silly, I know. But I couldnt HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > picture of guys turning purple when they walk by a cute girl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *giggle* *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Im getting old and am easily amused.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4830 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                      See thats good to know. giggle. I WONDERED why my regent filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      pad just HAPPENED to fit the penguin that came to me in the mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                      with no filter cartridge. giggle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since I only change my carbon out once a month it doesnt bother me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      but Im enjoying hearing what other people used instead of carbon. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      always wondered how much it cost to use carbon of a 100+ tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      *shudder* But then if you cant afford a 100 gallon, you shouldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      have one. I dont have one, and dont see myself getting one, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thats cool for some people. (Personally Im kinda afraid it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                      WAY too much of a temptation for my kids.....they like to swim)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Im getting the impression that the only time you really need CARBON
                                                                                                                                                                                                      is to take meds outta a tank, so it would be good on a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank, but not of much use on a regular tank. That a normal tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      should have a good bacteria colony, plants, regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      and not be overstocked. Correct me if Im wrong. I learn fast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      grin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I MUST make this comment.....There is SO much more information out
                                                                                                                                                                                                      there NOW than there was 30 years ago. When I was a kid and had
                                                                                                                                                                                                      turtles I couldnt even IDENTIFY them all because there WAS no
                                                                                                                                                                                                      internet, the library didnt have anywhere NEAR the books on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      subjects they do now. Its just AMAZING!!!! Its AWESOME the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      information that is at the fingertips of an aquatic hobbiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                      compared to when I had fish 25 years ago!!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                      <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i don't understand why people are so upset about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > price of the filter pads? how much are you paying? in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ca the filter pads for regents are only about $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they are made by the same company. yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- Aranel <aranel@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > those filters from Wal-mart for about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > (I've tried before when I needed to use medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > did! :) I quit changing my cartridges right after
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > seeing the prices. I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > water when they start getting clogged. So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > very much. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > needed 90% of the time). And you can easily use
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > there. You might need to cut the filter floss off
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > just use the plastic part to hold the new filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *About my tanks: *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4831 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived-guys turning purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Oh GOSH. Youre right. Need to pick another color!!!! Wonder if
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thats his tetras way of getting a little "mouth to mouth". Sneeky
                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish! Grin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Would'nt turning purple or blue, in a human male, indicate
                                                                                                                                                                                                      sudden inability to survive without medical assistance?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Giggle. Yeah that was almost my thought. Though Ive watched WAY
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > too much early Star Trek eposiodes in my life to NOT find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > thought of a purple guy (maybe flashing with a little bell or
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > buzzer ???)HIGHLY entertaining. grin. Though I would feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      SOOOOOO
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > sorry for them (even though Im giggling). I think, all-in-all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      we
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > girls REALLY lucked out compared to guys with what we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > being visable. grin. We turn red sometimes. We giggle. I remeber
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > a kid I went to summer camp who felt the need to DUCK TAPE
                                                                                                                                                                                                      himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > down EVERYTIME he got NEAR a cute, tiny, blond girl who was in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      my
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bunk house. *shake head* *sigh* Poor, silly, little adolescent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > brennemann" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Joy, my darling DH tells me there is no point to a guy turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > purple
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > when he's in the mood...cause they'd just be purple all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      time!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Wouldnt it just SUCK though to be a guy that changed colors
                                                                                                                                                                                                      when
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > he
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > was in the mood ???? Sorry. Silly, I know. But I couldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > picture of guys turning purple when they walk by a cute
                                                                                                                                                                                                      girl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *giggle* *grin*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Im getting old and am easily amused.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4832 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carbon will also help keep your tank clear.  I also fell with water changes, something like 25 - 30% a week or maybe even 10 or 15% twice a week you can keep your tank clean.  I have a 55 gallon tank and I have a Emperor 400 and I spend about 4.25 a month or so on the filter media.  I guess it's just the cost of fish.  I have been thing of putting a sprung in there and not running carbon all the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Other filter uses

                                                                                                                                                                                                      See thats good to know.  giggle.  I WONDERED why my regent filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      pad just HAPPENED to fit the penguin that came to me in the mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                      with no filter cartridge.  giggle. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since I only change my carbon out once a month it doesnt bother me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      but Im enjoying hearing what other people used instead of carbon.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      always wondered how much it cost to use carbon of a 100+ tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      *shudder*  But then if you cant afford a 100 gallon, you shouldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      have one.  I dont have one, and dont see myself getting one, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thats cool for some people.  (Personally Im kinda afraid it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                      WAY too much of a temptation for my kids.....they like to swim) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Im getting the impression that the only time you really need CARBON
                                                                                                                                                                                                      is to take meds outta a tank, so it would be good on a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank, but not of much use on a regular tank.  That a normal tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      should have a good bacteria colony, plants, regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      and not be overstocked.  Correct me if Im wrong.  I learn fast. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      grin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I MUST make this comment.....There is SO much more information out
                                                                                                                                                                                                      there NOW than there was 30 years ago.  When I was a kid and had
                                                                                                                                                                                                      turtles I couldnt even IDENTIFY them all because there WAS no
                                                                                                                                                                                                      internet, the library didnt have anywhere NEAR the books on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      subjects they do now.  Its just AMAZING!!!!  Its AWESOME the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      information that is at the fingertips of an aquatic hobbiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                      compared to when I had fish 25 years ago!!!!  


                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                      <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i don't understand why people are so upset about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > price of the filter pads? how much are you paying? in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ca the filter pads for regents are only about $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they are made by the same company.  yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- Aranel <aranel@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > those filters from Wal-mart for about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > (I've tried before when I needed to use medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >     My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > did! :)  I quit changing my cartridges right after
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > seeing the prices.  I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > water when they start getting clogged.  So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > very much.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >     So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > needed 90% of the time).  And you can easily use
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > there.  You might need to cut the filter floss off
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > just use the plastic part to hold the new filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *About my tanks:  *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >            
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://messenger.yahoo.com



                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4833 From: paul helms Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                      carbon keeps the water clear, and removes odor as
                                                                                                                                                                                                      well. these are its main use, but it also makes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      great biologic filter as it is so porous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Happy Happy Joy Joy <joy_of_simon_haza@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                      > See thats good to know. giggle. I WONDERED why my
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regent filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pad just HAPPENED to fit the penguin that came to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in the mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with no filter cartridge. giggle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Since I only change my carbon out once a month it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > doesnt bother me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but Im enjoying hearing what other people used
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > instead of carbon. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > always wondered how much it cost to use carbon of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 100+ tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > *shudder* But then if you cant afford a 100 gallon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > you shouldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have one. I dont have one, and dont see myself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > getting one, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thats cool for some people. (Personally Im kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > afraid it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > WAY too much of a temptation for my kids.....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > like to swim)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Im getting the impression that the only time you
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > really need CARBON
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is to take meds outta a tank, so it would be good on
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, but not of much use on a regular tank. That a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > normal tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > should have a good bacteria colony, plants, regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and not be overstocked. Correct me if Im wrong. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > learn fast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I MUST make this comment.....There is SO much more
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > information out
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there NOW than there was 30 years ago. When I was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > kid and had
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > turtles I couldnt even IDENTIFY them all because
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there WAS no
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > internet, the library didnt have anywhere NEAR the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > books on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > subjects they do now. Its just AMAZING!!!! Its
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > AWESOME the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > information that is at the fingertips of an aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hobbiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > compared to when I had fish 25 years ago!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i don't understand why people are so upset about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > price of the filter pads? how much are you paying?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ca the filter pads for regents are only about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > since
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > they are made by the same company. yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- Aranel <aranel@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > those filters from Wal-mart for about three
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > years
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Regent products though, just Whisper and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > (I've tried before when I needed to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > My 29 gallon from that wonderful store
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > came
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > did! :) I quit changing my cartridges right
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > seeing the prices. I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > water when they start getting clogged. So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > least another 6 months, but they don't get
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > very much. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > the filter behind the cartridges and more
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > So try cleaning the cartridges and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > needed 90% of the time). And you can easily
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > use
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > there. You might need to cut the filter floss
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > off
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > just use the plastic part to hold the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *About my tanks: *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > If you find something to help me correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > http://messenger.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4834 From: greywolfmm Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: What do my fish have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      PH is 7.2. I use all plastic plants. I haven't added any fish for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      long time. I've had the tank for about 3 months.



                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > You did'nt mention PH, and did you add plants of new fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      recently? How long have you had your fish/tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > No, I don't see any white spots. If they did, would that be ich?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My ammonia is at zero. Nitrites are a little high so I did a major
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cleaning of the tank a few days ago and added some aquarium salt just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in case. I did a 40 percent water change after the cleaning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Do you see tim

                                                                                                                                                                                                      y white spots/bumps on the fish in the area they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > scratching?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "greywolfmm"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                      what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                      itself as
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      against
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4835 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: What do my fish have?

                                                                                                                                                                                                         My thought is something de-stabilized water chemistry (could be because your setup is young.). I don't know if your nitrite level was the cause of the flashing. You mentioned you stabilized the water after noticing unsettling behaviour. Did that solve the problem? You should check water conditions daily 'till all is optimized, and do water changes accordingly. Did I miss the number of fish you have in the tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > PH is 7.2. I use all plastic plants. I haven't added any fish for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > long time. I've had the tank for about 3 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > You did'nt mention PH, and did you add plants of new fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recently? How long have you had your fish/tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > No, I don't see any white spots. If they did, would that be ich?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > My ammonia is at zero. Nitrites are a little high so I did a major
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cleaning of the tank a few days ago and added some aquarium salt just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > in case. I did a 40 percent water change after the cleaning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Do you see tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > y white spots/bumps on the fish in the area they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > scratching?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "greywolfmm"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > My fish have been acting strangely of late and I'm not sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what's
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > wrong. I have a platy that for most of a day was shaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > itself as
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > it was having a seizure. When he did that, some of the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > could peck at him. He would also very quickly brush himself
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > against
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > the aquarium decorations. He no longer does the shaking part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > Today, another fish starting to the brush himself against a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > thing. He doesn't do it often, but it does happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > The tank is a 20 gallon with 5 fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > Any suggestions as to what the problem is and how to correct it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > Kevin
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4836 From: Aaron Martin Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Subject Tag
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was Planning on changing the name to "Aquatic Life" on the 2 year anniversary, no need to wait really. I wanted a shorter name as well as a name that was all inclusive. However the results of the poll showed the majority of the members were primarily interested in Freshwater Aquariums and / or Tropical Fish, so I left the name. I think if making a change, I might as well change the name at this time. I want to get more feedback from the groups members and moderators first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:51:59 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                                      To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Subject Tag

                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I would like to make a request about the subject tag that appears on all
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > messages from the group. Instead of having it appear as
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium], could you, perhaps, shorten it to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > like [FTFA], or something similar?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The curr ent version does not really work for me, since I do not use a full
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > screen window, having numerous programs open and working on each as
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > necessary, plus having space to open another, if needed, so the subject tag
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pretty much is the whole visible subject on the message when I am looking in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my Inbox, with perhaps a few letters apparent after it, and the RE: on
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > replies knocks it off completely. Also, when I use my ISP's web mail--the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > address to which mail is sent from the group, it only shows the subject tab,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > making it rather difficult to know if I should open a message or not while I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > am on the road--something that occupied me for most of the last two weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Now that I am back, and with thousands of e-mails to wade through, being
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > able to see the whole subject line, or, at least, most of it, would be most
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you need help to do this, I can walk you through it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > \\Steve// 



                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aaron R. Martin, cmt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                      (925) 337-2340

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Livermore CA (San Francisco Bay Area)



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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4837 From: Aaron Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                      hi all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                      the group description on the home page includes the following;

                                                                                                                                                                                                      "This is the place to share experience, ask and answer questions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      post photos of Fish - Plants - Aquariums - and any Aquatic Life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Join in discussions on topics like; ..., Reef Tanks, ..., Saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aquariums,.."

                                                                                                                                                                                                      all are welcome - any Aquatic Life, if it lives in water, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                      probably on topic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      considering changing the name to -"Aquatic Life"

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aaron

                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but since Im asking a question about my mom's tank (me not HAVING
                                                                                                                                                                                                      a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > saltwater tank and therefore not on any saltwater list) I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for saltwater fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      get
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS to me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus could SURVIVE in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      water
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with that much salt in it (she checks it obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > problem she has is getting the temp down below 80 degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this one she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but its her fish and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a saltwater question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4838 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Morning,

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think next time I will, but since everyone has already identified
                                                                                                                                                                                                      this particular thread, with this particular question, I believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll leave it for simplicity's sake. I'll know better next time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      *grin*

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paul,

                                                                                                                                                                                                      We ran down to Conroe to get the meds for the fish, but since it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                      raining the traffic moved at the whooping pace of 8 miles an hour.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Even taking 75, it wound up taking us over 2 hours to get there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      And this morning was Katie's first day back to school after being
                                                                                                                                                                                                      out sick a whole week, so I'll have to take that pic later today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm passing out with exhaustion. grin. Thank you for ALL of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                      help though. I have appreciated it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      <massagetherapist@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the group description on the home page includes the following;
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "This is the place to share experience, ask and answer questions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > post photos of Fish - Plants - Aquariums - and any Aquatic Life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Join in discussions on topics like; ..., Reef Tanks, ...,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aquariums,.."
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > all are welcome - any Aquatic Life, if it lives in water, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > probably on topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > considering changing the name to -"Aquatic Life"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aaron
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                      board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > but since Im asking a question about my mom's tank (me not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      HAVING
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > saltwater tank and therefore not on any saltwater list) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for saltwater fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS to me like
                                                                                                                                                                                                      little
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus could SURVIVE in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > with that much salt in it (she checks it obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > problem she has is getting the temp down below 80 degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this one she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but its her fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      if
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a saltwater question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4839 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just a odd question..... How long does it take you to vacume the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel on a 55 gallon tank, and how often do you do it??? Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      curious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy


                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Carbon will also help keep your tank clear. I also fell with
                                                                                                                                                                                                      water changes, something like 25 - 30% a week or maybe even 10 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                      15% twice a week you can keep your tank clean. I have a 55 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank and I have a Emperor 400 and I spend about 4.25 a month or so
                                                                                                                                                                                                      on the filter media. I guess it's just the cost of fish. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                      been thing of putting a sprung in there and not running carbon all
                                                                                                                                                                                                      the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Happy Happy Joy Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > See thats good to know. giggle. I WONDERED why my regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pad just HAPPENED to fit the penguin that came to me in the mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with no filter cartridge. giggle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Since I only change my carbon out once a month it doesnt bother
                                                                                                                                                                                                      me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but Im enjoying hearing what other people used instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      carbon. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > always wondered how much it cost to use carbon of a 100+ tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > *shudder* But then if you cant afford a 100 gallon, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                      shouldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have one. I dont have one, and dont see myself getting one, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thats cool for some people. (Personally Im kinda afraid it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > WAY too much of a temptation for my kids.....they like to swim)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Im getting the impression that the only time you really need
                                                                                                                                                                                                      CARBON
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is to take meds outta a tank, so it would be good on a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, but not of much use on a regular tank. That a normal tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > should have a good bacteria colony, plants, regular water
                                                                                                                                                                                                      changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and not be overstocked. Correct me if Im wrong. I learn fast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I MUST make this comment.....There is SO much more information
                                                                                                                                                                                                      out
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there NOW than there was 30 years ago. When I was a kid and had
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > turtles I couldnt even IDENTIFY them all because there WAS no
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > internet, the library didnt have anywhere NEAR the books on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > subjects they do now. Its just AMAZING!!!! Its AWESOME the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > information that is at the fingertips of an aquatic hobbiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > compared to when I had fish 25 years ago!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                      helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i don't understand why people are so upset about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > price of the filter pads? how much are you paying? in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ca the filter pads for regents are only about $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > they are made by the same company. yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- Aranel <aranel@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > those filters from Wal-mart for about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > (I've tried before when I needed to use medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > did! :) I quit changing my cartridges right after
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > seeing the prices. I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > water when they start getting clogged. So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > very much. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > needed 90% of the time). And you can easily use
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > there. You might need to cut the filter floss off
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > just use the plastic part to hold the new filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *About my tanks: *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4840 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Subject Tag
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I dont know how many groups you are on, but when I have to go away
                                                                                                                                                                                                      for awhile, I just delete all of my group emails and read them on
                                                                                                                                                                                                      the list. THAT WAY, I can see all of the titles (along with all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      the replys to that thread) and don't have to bother wasting time
                                                                                                                                                                                                      with threads I have no interest in. With my groups that post 100
                                                                                                                                                                                                      posts a day, I give up and ask what's happened that's important,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      because with groups like that, catching up is an effort in futility.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hate it when that happens. But that's life, and it's better than
                                                                                                                                                                                                      the alternative. grin. Good Luck !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Martin" <massagetherapist@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4841 From: thewheelmanswoman Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      If there is anyone who would like to see a fish club in this area of
                                                                                                                                                                                                      FL, please let me know. The closest one is in Sarasota which is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      good drive. There is little going on here. I used to live in Chicago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      and the involvement was VEY active. A fish club is a great place for
                                                                                                                                                                                                      education, socializing and increasig your stock of interesting fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jo
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4842 From: paul helms Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: saltwater question
                                                                                                                                                                                                      that would be a great idea aaron
                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the group description on the home page includes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > following;
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "This is the place to share experience, ask and
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > answer questions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > post photos of Fish - Plants - Aquariums - and any
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aquatic Life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Join in discussions on topics like; ..., Reef Tanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ..., Saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aquariums,.."
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > all are welcome - any Aquatic Life, if it lives in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > probably on topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > considering changing the name to -"Aquatic Life"
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aaron
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Happy Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sorry to ask this question in such on OBIVIOUSLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > freshwater board,
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > but since Im asking a question about my mom's tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > (me not HAVING
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > saltwater tank and therefore not on any saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > list) I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Id
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ask our resident wizs!!!! Is it possible for
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > saltwater fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fungus???? She has a damsel that has what LOOKS
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to me like little
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > white puffs on him and I didnt know if fungus
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > could SURVIVE in
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > with that much salt in it (she checks it
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > obsessively, the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > problem she has is getting the temp down below 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > degrees). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > know....a damsel only costs 3.00, or so and this
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > one she paid 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cents for at a garage sell (imagine that) but its
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > her fish and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > can help, I want to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks for not flamming me for asking a saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > freshwater list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4843 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: need help/advice re: cory eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I breed Endler's livebearers and was doing my nightly de-snail of their tank when I noticed little white blobs, eggs which I first thought were the snail's. But then it hit me that they might belong to the pandas in the tank. I had trilineatus cories spawn once and these eggs look similar. They're attached to my floating anacharis and some in the java moss....it doesn't seem like the Endler's have an interest in eating them but if they are fish eggs I want to give them the best chance possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I put some tank water in a little plastic container. The eggs on the glass and moss I picked off and put in the water. As far as the anacharis I pinched off that piece and put the whole thing with eggs in the container. Which is now floating in the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I read about using anti-fungus but the container is so small, maybe 1 cup, how much would I use? I also have a breeder net I could put in the tank, put the eggs in there...is that a better idea?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry for the frantic email. I'm very excited, my other cories only spawned once and the eggs didn't make it, I'm hoping for better luck this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4844 From: wendie Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need help/advice re: cory eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Years ago I had some of my cories spawn - all over the place.  I left the eggs alone - community tank with a huge Oscar - 12 inches (which I did move).  I was lucky enough to be able to watch the development of the eggs over the course of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                          development.  The heart beat, the eyes, the embryo turning around and active.  It was really neat.  I ended up with about 100 little guys.  No one bothered them so I just left the eggs alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@comcast.net]
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 11:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: PVAS; aquaria-freshwater; FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] need help/advice re: cory eggs

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I breed Endler's livebearers and was doing my nightly de-snail of their tank when I noticed little white blobs, eggs which I first thought were the snail's. But then it hit me that they might belong to the pandas in the tank. I had trilineatus cories spawn once and these eggs look similar. They're attached to my floating anacharis and some in the java moss....it doesn't seem like the Endler's have an interest in eating them but if they are fish eggs I want to give them the best chance possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I put some tank water in a little plastic container. The eggs on the glass and moss I picked off and put in the water. As far as the anacharis I pinched off that piece and put the whole thing with eggs in the container. Which is now floating in the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I read about using anti-fungus but the container is so small, maybe 1 cup, how much would I use? I also have a breeder net I could put in the tank, put the eggs in there...is that a better idea?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry for the frantic email. I'm very excited, my other cories only spawned once and the eggs didn't make it, I'm hoping for better luck this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                           



                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4845 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Planted Tanks and CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Joy, and Tim too - I experimented with "home-brew" CO2 also; the first month, it lowered my pH (which is 8.0 to 8.5 coming out of my well) to 7.2, but I didn't notice my plants improving in color or fullness. (I was adding PlantGro also. The plants all outgrew my tank, but looked lanky instead of full.) My second "batch" of CO2, I had the valve on the airstone open too much, and within two days the pH dropped to 6.2 and I almost poisoned all my fish with CO2 levels above 110 ppm. (My golden white cloud minnows and their largest fry survived - they can apparently survive almost anything!) So I personally wouldn't recommend it unless you are willing to test your water every day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Plants actually can produce some of the CO2 they need for themselves, at night, and the fish will produce some as well, on top of which their wastes will fertilize your plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Also, I don't have fancy substrate, I just use ordinary gravel. Plants that grow on driftwood (like Java Fern and Java Moss), and plants that don't like their roots buried deeply(like "Banana" plant), and plants that can be sustained as floating plants (like Riccia and Cabomba), don't need expensive substrates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          But if you want a lush "garden", with a few small fish added more as "decor" for your plants, I understand that you should plan on 3 - 4 watts of light per gallon of water, and maybe you can see if your library has a good book on "Dutch Aquariums", or that book by that Japanese man (not at home to look at my catalogue, can't recall his name) on "Natural Aquariums".

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4846 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: need help/advice re: cory eggs

                                                                                                                                                                                                          If memory serves, the breeder tank/net, placed in your aquarium would be better if you've nothing else. It's best to have a water-flow over the eggs, which will help retard fungus growth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I breed Endler's livebearers and was doing my nightly de-snail of their tank when I noticed little white blobs, eggs which I first thought were the snail's. But then it hit me that they might belong to the pandas in the tank. I had trilineatus cories spawn once and these eggs look similar. They're attached to my floating anacharis and some in the java moss....it doesn't seem like the Endler's have an interest in eating them but if they are fish eggs I want to give them the best chance possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I put some tank water in a little plastic container. The eggs on the glass and moss I picked off and put in the water. As far as the anacharis I pinched off that piece and put the whole thing with eggs in the container. Which is now floating in the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I read about using anti-fungus but the container is so small, maybe 1 cup, how much would I use? I also have a breeder net I could put in the tank, put the eggs in there...is that a better idea?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry for the frantic email. I'm very excited, my other cories only spawned once and the eggs didn't make it, I'm hoping for better luck this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa







                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4847 From: Tim Walker Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Planted Tanks and CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > But if you want a lush "garden", with a few small fish added more as
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "decor" for your plants, I understand that you should plan on 3 - 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > watts of light per gallon of water, and maybe you can see if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > library has a good book on "Dutch Aquariums", or that book by that
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Japanese man (not at home to look at my catalogue, can't recall his
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > name) on "Natural Aquariums".
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  


                                                                                                                                                                                                          That would be Takashi Amano, and I believe the book is Nature World. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                          prefer a mix of dutch and "natural" styles myself. I think most people
                                                                                                                                                                                                          do. I'm on a few other plants forums, one of which is dedicated to
                                                                                                                                                                                                          gardens and their respective decor ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                          And you could get away with 2-3 watts per gallon, homebrew CO2 and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                          about any plant you wanted. My tanks are all heavily planted. Not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                          the level of some people, as I tend to like fish too, but there's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                          definite swing towards the plants in my tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4848 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: nitra-zorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                          whats your guys take on nitra-zorb? effective or not effective?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          interferes with bacteria growth?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4849 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                          It takes about 30 to 45 minutes.  I take out about 12 gallons of water a week and I vacuum half the gravel each week, other than the front and all the front gets done on a weekly bases.  Sometimes I get lazy and will miss a week and then I do about 15 to 20 gallons the next week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Other filter uses

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just a odd question..... How long does it take you to vacume the
                                                                                                                                                                                                          gravel on a 55 gallon tank, and how often do you do it???  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                          curious. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Joy


                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Carbon will also help keep your tank clear.  I also fell with
                                                                                                                                                                                                          water changes, something like 25 - 30% a week or maybe even 10 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                          15% twice a week you can keep your tank clean.  I have a 55 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank and I have a Emperor 400 and I spend about 4.25 a month or so
                                                                                                                                                                                                          on the filter media.  I guess it's just the cost of fish.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                          been thing of putting a sprung in there and not running carbon all
                                                                                                                                                                                                          the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   From: Happy Happy Joy Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Other filter uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   See thats good to know.  giggle.  I WONDERED why my regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                          filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   pad just HAPPENED to fit the penguin that came to me in the mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   with no filter cartridge.  giggle. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Since I only change my carbon out once a month it doesnt bother
                                                                                                                                                                                                          me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   but Im enjoying hearing what other people used instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                          carbon.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   always wondered how much it cost to use carbon of a 100+ tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   *shudder*  But then if you cant afford a 100 gallon, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                          shouldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   have one.  I dont have one, and dont see myself getting one, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   thats cool for some people.  (Personally Im kinda afraid it
                                                                                                                                                                                                          would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   WAY too much of a temptation for my kids.....they like to swim) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Im getting the impression that the only time you really need
                                                                                                                                                                                                          CARBON
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   is to take meds outta a tank, so it would be good on a hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   tank, but not of much use on a regular tank.  That a normal tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   should have a good bacteria colony, plants, regular water
                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   and not be overstocked.  Correct me if Im wrong.  I learn fast. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   I MUST make this comment.....There is SO much more information
                                                                                                                                                                                                          out
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   there NOW than there was 30 years ago.  When I was a kid and had
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   turtles I couldnt even IDENTIFY them all because there WAS no
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   internet, the library didnt have anywhere NEAR the books on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   subjects they do now.  Its just AMAZING!!!!  Its AWESOME the
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   information that is at the fingertips of an aquatic hobbiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   compared to when I had fish 25 years ago!!!!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                          helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > i don't understand why people are so upset about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > price of the filter pads? how much are you paying? in
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > ca the filter pads for regents are only about $3.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > or you can by the penguin pads in bulk for less, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > they are made by the same company.  yes, i realize
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > that regent is walmart brand, but the same company
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > makes the penguin pads and tehy are the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > --- Aranel <aranel@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > I have a couple of questions. I too have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > screaming at the prices of
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > those filters from Wal-mart for about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > now. I don't have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > Regent products though, just Whisper and Aqua-Tech.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > How would I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > taking the carbon out of those filters without
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > rendering them useless?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > (I've tried before when I needed to use medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > in the water.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > Also, what kind of sponge do you use? Is it just
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > regular sponges that
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > you could get anywhere, or are they aquarium only?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > I hope I'm not being annoying. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > >     My 29 gallon from that wonderful store came
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > with an upgrade to
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > a 30-60 Regent, so it is more than enough for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > I bet yours didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > come with that free and unusual upgrade, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > have no idea why mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > did! :)  I quit changing my cartridges right after
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > buying a 6 pack and
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > seeing the prices.  I removed the carbon and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > just was them in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > water when they start getting clogged.  So far
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > it's probably been over
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > 6 months since I changed one, and don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > changing one again for at
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > least another 6 months, but they don't get clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > very much.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > also put gravel and pieces of sponge in mesh bags
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > and put those into
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > the filter behind the cartridges and more sponges
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > >     So try cleaning the cartridges and just remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > the carbon (not
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > needed 90% of the time).  And you can easily use
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > all kinds of stuff in
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > there.  You might need to cut the filter floss off
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > the cartridge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > just use the plastic part to hold the new filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > media in and keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > from flying out with the water. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *Patrick N.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *About my tanks:  *
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *29 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > keepers!*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *10 gallon tank.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *-Multiple bettas, all born in June.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > sponge filter.*
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > *WARNING*: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > > > provide a citation.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4850 From: Steve Sears Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I left Fort Myers a few years ago and they had an aquarium society going at that time. I don't remember the contact information, but you should be able to bet info at Boardroom Aquatics. I think the owners name was Richard (could be wrong on that) but they had info on meetings and such at the shop. Its a good little shop also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Steve

                                                                                                                                                                                                            At 10:50 AM 9/7/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            If there is anyone who would like to see a fish club in this area of
                                                                                                                                                                                                            FL, please let me know. The closest one is in Sarasota which is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                            good drive. There is little going on here. I used to live in Chicago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            and the involvement was VEY active. A fish club is a great place for
                                                                                                                                                                                                            education, socializing and increasig your stock of interesting fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jo



                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4851 From: paul helms Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: need help/advice re: cory eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                            it is best to leave the cori eggs where they are, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                            mopther will protect them as best she can. i would
                                                                                                                                                                                                            not worry about the endlers, but plecos do love eggs

                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I breed Endler's livebearers and was doing my
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nightly de-snail of their tank when I noticed little
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > white blobs, eggs which I first thought were the
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > snail's. But then it hit me that they might belong
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to the pandas in the tank. I had trilineatus cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > spawn once and these eggs look similar. They're
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > attached to my floating anacharis and some in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > java moss....it doesn't seem like the Endler's have
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > an interest in eating them but if they are fish eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I want to give them the best chance possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I put some tank water in a little plastic container.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The eggs on the glass and moss I picked off and put
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in the water. As far as the anacharis I pinched off
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that piece and put the whole thing with eggs in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > container. Which is now floating in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I read about using anti-fungus but the container is
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > so small, maybe 1 cup, how much would I use? I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have a breeder net I could put in the tank, put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > eggs in there...is that a better idea?
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sorry for the frantic email. I'm very excited, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > other cories only spawned once and the eggs didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > make it, I'm hoping for better luck this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4852 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                            until you own one or more of these!

                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://homeclick.com/showpage.asp?itemid=123531

                                                                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                            For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                            List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4853 From: Sandpiper Plantation Date: 9/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                            At $5,000...yep that's nuts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            sandpiper

                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Steve Szabo" <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:02:51 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: <stevesz@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .

                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > until you own one or more of these!
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://homeclick.com/showpage.asp?itemid=123531
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4854 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cleaver.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm sure you've also seen the 35 gallon coffee table aquarium,
                                                                                                                                                                                                            they're frequently offererd on ebay. It seems that you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                            conceivably arrange your house so that you never have to be in a room
                                                                                                                                                                                                            that doesn't have fish in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                                                                                                                            <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > until you own one or more of these!
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://homeclick.com/showpage.asp?itemid=123531
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4855 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lol. I built one and have been trying to sell it on ebay. I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a house in which every room has fish ;)... maybe not a "Fish nut" but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                            may be very close to one... hehe

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: radzewicz@... [mailto:radzewicz@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 08 September 2004 08:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Cleaver.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >I'm sure you've also seen the 35 gallon coffee table aquarium,
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >they're frequently offererd on ebay. It seems that you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >conceivably arrange your house so that you never have to be in a room
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >that doesn't have fish in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                                                                                                                            ><stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> until you own one or more of these!
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://homeclick.com/showpage.asp?itemid=123531
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4856 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: You Are NOT a Fish Nut . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've seen photos of old style Televions converted into aquariums.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I always thought it appropriate to have a clear acrylic toilet tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                            and or bowl with small goldfish since it so common for people to
                                                                                                                                                                                                            flush their dead fish (and sometimes alive)

                                                                                                                                                                                                            maybe a bathtub made of clear acrylic type material so your kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                            can "swim w/ the fishes", would make bath time more fun - I mean its
                                                                                                                                                                                                            common here for people to turn an antique claw foot tub into a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                            pond by filling the tub w/ water and adding fish, but a tub w/ built
                                                                                                                                                                                                            in aqaurium like the sink that is still functional would be great eh

                                                                                                                                                                                                            didn't people used to put goldfish in water beds back in the day?


                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                                                                                                                            <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > until you own one or more of these!
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://homeclick.com/showpage.asp?itemid=123531
                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4857 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Argonite in fw planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                            petCo is disconted their big bags to 50 cents each to get rid of
                                                                                                                                                                                                            them as they will not carry it anymore and I figured why nt try it
                                                                                                                                                                                                            but thought maybe I should ask around first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            the octopus garden guys in berkely recommend putting a little of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                            regular white kind in the tank to help buffer the pH and add calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                            and whatever else is good stuff in it to the water. there is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                            golden shores and grey, they say it dissolves really slowly

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am getting rid f the livebearers and going back to mostly tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                            which i believe like a lower pH and softer water (correct?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                            would the argonite be ok? if so how much per gallon?
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4858 From: audralee Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                              I shop at Boardroom Aquatics and have talked to Rich. The club is inactive. I hope he will be able to reactivate it soon. He says there was little interest in the club. Thanks for the info, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jo
                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] anyone in the Fort Myers/Naples, FL area?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                       I left Fort Myers a few years ago and they had an aquarium society going at that time. I don't remember the contact information, but you should be able to bet info at Boardroom Aquatics. I think the owners name was Richard (could be wrong on that) but they had info on meetings and such at the shop. Its a good little shop also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Steve

                                                                                                                                                                                                              At 10:50 AM 9/7/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                              If there is anyone who would like to see a fish club in this area of
                                                                                                                                                                                                              FL, please let me know. The closest one is in Sarasota which is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                              good drive. There is little going on here. I used to live in Chicago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              and the involvement was VEY active. A fish club is a great place for
                                                                                                                                                                                                              education, socializing and increasig your stock of interesting fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jo



                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4859 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: licorice gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm in the process of setting up an Asian biotope tank, right now I have sparkling gouramis (Trichopsis pumilus), three-striped croaking gouramis (T. schalleri), spiketailed paradisefish (Pseudosphromenus cupanus) and kuhlis. I'd like to add licorice gouramis as well...I'm wondering if anyone has them or has kept them in the past. Any info about keeping them would be great, also how best to keep them: singly, pairs, group?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4860 From: bryants4god Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Argonite in fw planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is this only certain Petco's doing this?  I called ours and they didn't know anything about it.  I need a million and one bags of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Aaron [mailto:massagetherapist@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Argonite in fw planted tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                petCo is disconted their big bags to 50 cents each to get rid of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                them as they will not carry it anymore and I figured why nt try it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                but thought maybe I should ask around first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                the octopus garden guys in berkely recommend putting a little of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                regular white kind in the tank to help buffer the pH and add calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                and whatever else is good stuff in it to the water. there is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4861 From: utacutie Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: I need help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                I was looking this morning while feeding my fish and noticed one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                the green barbs gills are flaring. I have not seen them go in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                either. He is opening and closing his mouth very quickly too. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                noticed where the one barb that has been in the tank the longest was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                kind of pecking at him, but since I have 6 barbs, he doesn't do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                constantly. Can anyone offer any advice on what might be wrong and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                what I can do to fix the situation? I will be out of town till
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Friday but will check this first thing when I return. Thanks!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                29gallon: 6 tiger barbs, one pearl gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4862 From: harry perry Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: To a moderator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am a moderator of a few groups and I own one. How did this group grow so fast, with so much activity?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4863 From: simonsmommy0117@aol.com Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: cichlid question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have two large cichlids,yesterday at my local petstore I saw babies. I have been thinking of getting some, but the big ones will hurt the little ones? can I put the little ones in my community tank until they get bigger?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                =)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4864 From: StarWolf Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: I have fish today!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have mollies, guppies and swordtails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  When my ph goes down a little more, I can add some other fish, but after almost 7 weeks, I finally was able to add fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  YAY!



                                                                                                                                                                                                                  B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4865 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: To a moderator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Harry,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I put a lot of effort into the group, however I have not been as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  active lately as I originally intended.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I started this group out of frustration with the top 2 that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  been around along time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My original goal was and still is to ensure every question was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  replied to even if I did not know the answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Individual attention makes a big difference, everyone needs to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  acknowledged to make the group effective.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, I wanted to protect the privacy of the members and prevent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  spam.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hope this group continues to grow and remain the most active. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  are already the 3rd largest Yahoo! Aquarium group.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to everybody that helps make this such a great place to share
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and learn more about the world of fishkeeping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I am a moderator of a few groups and I own one. How did this group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  grow so fast, with so much activity?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4866 From: Aaron Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Argonite in fw planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was the Dublin and San Ramon CA (San Francisco East Bay) Stores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that I visited yesterday, the manager said PetCo was discontinuing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the items and thats why they were on clearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Where are you located?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Is this only certain Petco's doing this? I called ours and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  didn't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > anything about it. I need a million and one bags of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Aaron [mailto:massagetherapist@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Argonite in fw planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > petCo is disconted their big bags to 50 cents each to get rid of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > them as they will not carry it anymore and I figured why nt try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > but thought maybe I should ask around first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the octopus garden guys in berkely recommend putting a little of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > regular white kind in the tank to help buffer the pH and add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and whatever else is good stuff in it to the water. there is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4867 From: bryants4god Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Argonite in fw planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am in Texas.  I so wish that was on clearance here!  Thanks for the reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Aaron [mailto:massagetherapist@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Argonite in fw planted tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was the Dublin and San Ramon CA (San Francisco East Bay) Stores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that I visited yesterday, the manager said PetCo was discontinuing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the items and thats why they were on clearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Where are you located?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4868 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: I have fish today!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  *doing the happy happy dance with you*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, StarWolf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <starbev@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have mollies, guppies and swordtails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > When my ph goes down a little more, I can add some other fish, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > almost 7 weeks, I finally was able to add fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > YAY!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4869 From: StarWolf Date: 9/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: I have fish today!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Funny thing, a couple of the guppies were pregnant, and we have three little babies hiding in the elodea (?sp) plants now *chuckle* I am suspecting they will serve as a nice snack for one of the other fish, but it was cool to see them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    At 08:28 PM 9/8/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    *doing the happy happy dance with you*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, StarWolf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <starbev@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have mollies, guppies and swordtails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > When my ph goes down a little more, I can add some other fish, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > almost 7 weeks, I finally was able to add fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > YAY!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                    B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 4870 From: Scorp1on Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: cichlid question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gene Simmons

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      due to aggressiveness do not put any cichlids in with the others unless they are the same size or a little larger than the others. as far as in the community tank you need to really read about compatibility, some will work great in a community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/08/04 19:02:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] cichlid question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have two large cichlids,yesterday at my local petstore I saw babies. I have been thinking of getting some, but the big ones will hurt the little ones? can I put the little ones in my community tank until they get bigger?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Stationary Created By Diane Alford at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Creator Of Image Unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No copyright infringment intended 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4871 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: cichlid question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don’t think that aggressive cichlids do care about the size of an opponent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish. I have seen 1.5" mbunas chase fish as large as 8"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Scorp1on [mailto:scorp1on@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 09 September 2004 14:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] cichlid question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gene Simmons

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      due to aggressiveness do not put any cichlids in with the others unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are the same size or a little larger than the others. as far as in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      community tank you need to really read about compatibility, some will work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      great in a community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/08/04 19:02:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: freshwatertropicalfishaquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] cichlid question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have two large cichlids,yesterday at my local petstore I saw babies. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have been thinking of getting some, but the big ones will hurt the little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ones? can I put the little ones in my community tank until they get bigger?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                                                       





                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Stationary Created By Diane Alford at
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4872 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: cichlid question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well the most important question is what species of cichlid are you refering to. Most are aggressive at any size and trouble in community tanks but some would get along fine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: simonsmommy0117@... [mailto:simonsmommy0117@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: freshwatertropicalfishaquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] cichlid question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have two large cichlids,yesterday at my local petstore I saw babies. I have been thinking of getting some, but the big ones will hurt the little ones? can I put the little ones in my community tank until they get bigger?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4873 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: cichlid question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes. This is the most important question. Considering the fact that Discus and Angels are also cichlids, so they come in various possible aggression levels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Jonathan Hartsoe [mailto:jhartsoe@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 09 September 2004 15:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] cichlid question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well the most important question is what species of cichlid are you refering to. Most are aggressive at any size and trouble in community tanks but some would get along fine

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: simonsmommy0117@... [mailto:simonsmommy0117@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: freshwatertropicalfishaquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] cichlid question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have two large cichlids,yesterday at my local petstore I saw babies. I have been thinking of getting some, but the big ones will hurt the little ones? can I put the little ones in my community tank until they get bigger?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks all

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =)



                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4874 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well I've decided to turn my 50 gallon tank into a planted aquarium. I also want it to be a community tank. Currently there are some tetra in it due to the fact only place i had to put the tank was where a 20 gallon aquarium was. There are a couple of black skirts, lemon tetras, some sort of red tetra, and couple others. 8 in all (Though according to what i decide some of these may get evicted if they cause trouble namely the black skirts. But was wondering what a good fish list for a planted tank would be. Sorta been looking at gouramis and angels, haven't ruled out guppies, maybe a group of barbs. I know there will be a group of cory's in the tank. Just looking for opinions on fish that would do well in a 50 gallon planted. Not entirely sure of water parameters at the moment as im in the process of lowering the pH and hardness of the tank hopefully to somewhere around pH of 6.8.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4875 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would not do the barbs as my experience is they will eat the plants. I would also get rid of the black skirts they are bullies. I would look at guppies and small tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Wjcoldman

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jonathan Hartsoe <jhartsoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well I've decided to turn my 50 gallon tank into a planted aquarium. I also want it to be a community tank. Currently there are some tetra in it due to the fact only place i had to put the tank was where a 20 gallon aquarium was. There are a couple of black skirts, lemon tetras, some sort of red tetra, and couple others. 8 in all (Though according to what i decide some of these may get evicted if they cause trouble namely the black skirts. But was wondering what a good fish list for a planted tank would be. Sorta been looking at gouramis and angels, haven't ruled out guppies, maybe a group of barbs. I know there will be a group of cory's in the tank. Just looking for opinions on fish that would do well in a 50 gallon planted. Not entirely sure of water parameters at the moment as im in the process of lowering the pH and hardness of the tank hopefully to somewhere around pH of 6.8.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4876 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Whatever tetras you decide to keep should be in a school of at least six each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cories are good bottom feeders, as well as loaches. You might want to consider a BN plec for algae.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Be careful with barbs, some of them can be nippy. Most also need to be kept in schools. Cherries are a bit shy but have nice color. I also have belted barbs which look similar to tiger barbs, aren't nippy, and school well. Harlequin rasboras are also good schoolers. Rainbow fish are another good option.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gouramis are nice, pearls are very pretty and peaceful, they grow to ~4-5". German rams are small but colorful and peaceful cichlids. There are other peaceful cichlids you could check into.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In my experience guppies & angels don't go well together. I have one angel in particular who loves guppy tails. Your fry would probably get eaten in a tank like that. If you're not concerned about fry and want a lot of color you could just get males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Check around to see what's available at lfs in your area and what interests you. Make a list then do some research on compatability.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Good luck and keep us posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well I've decided to turn my 50 gallon tank into a planted aquarium. I also want it to be a community tank. Currently there are some tetra in it due to the fact only place i had to put the tank was where a 20 gallon aquarium was. There are a couple of black skirts, lemon tetras, some sort of red tetra, and couple others. 8 in all (Though according to what i decide some of these may get evicted if they cause trouble namely the black skirts. But was wondering what a good fish list for a planted tank would be. Sorta been looking at gouramis and angels, haven't ruled out guppies, maybe a group of barbs. I know there will be a group of cory's in the tank. Just looking for opinions on fish that would do well in a 50 gallon planted. Not entirely sure of water parameters at the moment as im in the process of lowering the pH and hardness of the tank hopefully to somewhere around pH of 6.8.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4877 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: 50 Gal Planted tank Fish stocking help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I like a lot of action in my tank, so I tend to go with mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      smaller fish. We have living peacefully together guppies, tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (neons and black neons and gold tetras), angelfish (BIG
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      angelfish...he loves to eat snails and baby guppies and mollies), red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      finned shark, Mollies, cory catfish, a golden colored gourami (don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know what kind he is), plecostamus, and bettas. One tanks has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      several female bettas, one tank has one male. The only fish he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      chases are the mollies for some reason. We did have shrimp and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      frogs, but the angelfish made short work of the shrimp, and I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the snail killer we had used at first killed the frogs (but not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      snails...go fig). The tanks are planted, and we don't use a bubbler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of any kind, just a filter. Even in our small 20 gallon tanks, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is always lots of activity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4878 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Bumblebee catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is just a question out of curiosity but does anyone know the lifespan of a bumblebee catfish i'm not sure of the species of mine but its about 4 inchs in length and I've had it 10 years just curious if anyone new anything about these tough little guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4879 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bumblebee catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Asian Bumblebee Catfish, Pseudomystus siamensis  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A nocturnal species, the Asian Bumblebee Catfish prefers to hide among rocks and roots during the day and then feeds at night. Good water flow and subdued lighting is appreciated. This is a shoaling species, though they lose this tendancy with age. Should be kept only with fish of equal size. Max size 7".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I couldn't find anything about lifespan...you might want to search www.plantcatfish.com for Pseudomystus siamensis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is just a question out of curiosity but does anyone know the lifespan of a bumblebee catfish i'm not sure of the species of mine but its about 4 inchs in length and I've had it 10 years just curious if anyone new anything about these tough little guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4881 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Okay....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse if this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power filter 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin. (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      grin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the 70's*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4882 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Oh Joy, I've been looking for one of the older, 1970's, Metaframe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      incandescent striplights, the ones with the elongated incandescent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lightbulbs that no one seems to carry anymore. 36 inch long. If you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      happen across one of these for sale please get me in touch with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      seller.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Okay....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power filter 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin. (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > grin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the 70's*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4883 From: paul helms Date: 9/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      use a bulb for the dark room.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- wizard <row_25@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hai all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Plz help me out by answering this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > For checking heterotrophic(dark,no light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > allowed)growth of algae in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > laboratory flasks,can I use torch light to check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > growth or are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > special lights available for that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4884 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some endlers and every night the females are always at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      top of the tank looking like there stressed out and needing air or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      something. They have there fins tucked tight and look a little bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but every morning there fine. any suggestions. It's a 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with 12 little endlers and two cory cats. I can't afford the test kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      at the moment so I don't know how the water quality is. although it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      only at night.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ps. if anyone here has there tongues pierced here is my new group for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      people interested in buying colored tongue rings cheap. and if it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not allowed to post this to the group I'm sorry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BODYJEWELRY4SALE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4885 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You might want to check the Aquarium Hobby History Society list here on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo!. You'll find a whole bunch of people interested in these things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Right now most of the discussions are on literature, but many would be not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      adverse to talking about things such as the older DynaFlo you have just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      rescued, not about the porcelain (and other material) decorations that may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be used in the box. I do know several of the people on the list have rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      extensive collections of this stuff--some in the original packaging!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Happy Happy Joy Joy [mailto:joy_of_simon_haza@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Vintage Aquatica


                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Okay....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse if this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power filter 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin. (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      grin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the 70's*






                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4886 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bumblebee catfish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just to add on to this. Their mouth is very deceptive. They can engulf a prey half their body size easily.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.nimmat.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=&pos=3 is this the one that is discussed here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This one is only 2.5” at present and can easily gobble up a zebra danio or a fully grown cardinal tetra.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 09 September 2004 21:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bumblebee catfish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Asian Bumblebee Catfish, Pseudomystus siamensis  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A nocturnal species, the Asian Bumblebee Catfish prefers to hide among rocks and roots during the day and then feeds at night. Good water flow and subdued lighting is appreciated. This is a shoaling species, though they lose this tendancy with age. Should be kept only with fish of equal size. Max size 7".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I couldn't find anything about lifespan...you might want to search www.plantcatfish.com for Pseudomystus siamensis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is just a question out of curiosity but does anyone know the lifespan of a bumblebee catfish i'm not sure of the species of mine but its about 4 inchs in length and I've had it 10 years just curious if anyone new anything about these tough little guys.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           



                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4887 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      most REALISTIC plants that I can locate. So...fishie experts, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4888 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Fry not what I thought!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, everyone. It turns out I have a baby dwarf gourami!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess what had killed my female "Millie" was the either the spawning or the male "Billy the Bully" defending the brood (which would explain why she was bleeding). And he died a few days later, so maybe they had beat up on each other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So I thought all I had left in my tank was golden white clouds. But I just noticed that the surviving fry, which I had assumed was a white cloud, has tendrils.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So, of those of you who have had success spawning dwarf gouramis, how soon can I expect the coloration to appear, if it turns out to be a male? I first noticed the fry 8/21.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4889 From: harry perry Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Fry not what I thought!/Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have breed dwarf gouramis and my mortality rate was similar for the adults. I fed my fry bbs after about 3 weeks. They colored up quickly and were breeding within 4 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Audrey Archer <arch1574@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, everyone. It turns out I have a baby dwarf gourami!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess what had killed my female "Millie" was the either the spawning or the male "Billy the Bully" defending the brood (which would explain why she was bleeding). And he died a few days later, so maybe they had beat up on each other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So I thought all I had left in my tank was golden white clouds. But I just noticed that the surviving fry, which I had assumed was a white cloud, has tendrils.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So, of those of you who have had success spawning dwarf gouramis, how soon can I expect the coloration to appear, if it turns out to be a male? I first noticed the fry 8/21.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Audrey



                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4890 From: paul helms Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the silks are the most realistic, but thay are 10-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > So...fishie experts, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any suggestions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                      _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 4891 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have never seen a fake plant that was both cheap and real looking, really I haven't seen one that was real looking. :)  What types of "hard" plants do you want?  It might be easier to try them and see what happens if they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.  So...fishie experts, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is your favorite brand of "fakes"?  Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        appreciated.  My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!  Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4892 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm reading now on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        am trying to find some plants that are okay with low lighting, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall, I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with close to that height for the background, a few middle heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to like the way they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        look! Will try to stay away from any with big leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions! Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have never seen a fake plant that was both cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really I haven't seen one that was real looking. :) What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants do you want? It might be easier to try them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate. So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4893 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How difficult is it to keep the silks looking good? Plastic is SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        easy to keep clean, right? It's mainly what I have now, and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aren't too bad...but I think I can do better with this new tank. At
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        least I'm planning on it. Guess everyone starts out with high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        expectations, but I surely am seeing a LOT of aquariums at garage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sales these days!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the silks are the most realistic, but thay are 10-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So...fishie experts, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any suggestions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4894 From: molly_lec Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank You all that replied to my questions. You truly are of great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        help are are of a good group membership base.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The tank is stable now. We did have to up grade the filter system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Found out that the Koi where raised on flakes and not pellets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The local pet "super-market" suggested ACT instead of stress zyme,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        said that it worked quicker.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We now are of family with 3 ver happy Koi and in a "pretty" clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are much more funny to watch than Koi that are of a pond. Yes I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        think they needed time too, to understand their new world, that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could see thru. And within days, they lined up in the tank to watch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        television. They do have taste and seem to prefer old westerns and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nature shows.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank You again for all the groups kind help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sincerely,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Molly



                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thank You so much, Paul and Tim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We live in Alaska and our only water source is a very clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We could import well water, but declined due to very much sediment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I know that Koi are very strong basic fish. When I lived in L.A.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > many homes had kiddie pools of the inflatable type that where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with Koi and enjoyed very low maintenance and without the benefit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any filtration. Still this is a tank. I used to keep tropicals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this was many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thank You so much. Paul and Tim.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it will take 3-4 days with the stress zyme to start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > clearing, so i would recomend being patient. i would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > also not recomend changing more than 25% of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at a time, as the tank is still new. others may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > advise differently, but that is my two cents. good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > luck with whatever method you choose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Well we able to find Stress Zyme and Stress Coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > The Koi loved the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stress coat, and this made them very happy. Still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the tank is very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > clouded. Today,(Thrusday) the water is extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > clouded and the Koi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > are having trouble breathing. We realize that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ACCU-CLEAR that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > had used and plant matter had filled the new filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter did help, yet is still very clouded. But at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > least the Koi are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > breathing much better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I really don't want to change the water until they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > are less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stressed. However I do not see any other choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Tomorrow we will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > purchase a gravel vacuum and change half the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > add more Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Do we need a better filter system of just need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > more often than we thought?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thank You,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > "molly_lec"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Thank You for your reply. I will try this first if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I can locate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > these products in Alaska. If not I guess I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > try a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filtration system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > The Stress zyme seems a good approch due to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > damage suffered by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the young female Koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Thank You again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > cloudy water is usually from a lack of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > beacteria, try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > adding fritz zyme or stress zyme. it is a non
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > harmful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > non chemical approach that works better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > --- molly_lec <molly_lec@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > We just got 3 Baby Koi in a 29gal. tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Anyone that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > keeps Koi in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > tanks or that knows about " caring for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > children"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > please help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > One of the fingerlings came home with a torn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > upper tail fin. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > looks like a turtle or something got a bite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Part of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > the Koi's body
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > is missing with the lost fin part. It looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > alright
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > and seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > healing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > The water in the tank does seem to cloud very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > quickly. We do have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > 20-40 power filter that came with the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > package.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Not to many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > plants and have been treating the cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > ACCU-CLEAR. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > states it will not be of harm to the Koi or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > I does seem like we should have somewhat clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > without the use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > of chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Thank You. Please e-mail me or post replies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > messages!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4895 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would try Jungle Val in the back of the tank. I have seen it grow to 24-30 inches and it should do fine with your light system. Drift wood will work alright I have always used it my fresh water tanks. Good luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Walter

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, I'm still doing my homework.  From what I'm reading now on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        am trying to find some plants that are okay with low lighting, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        least medium lighting.  Since the tank is 20" tall, I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with close to that height for the background, a few middle heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and some foreground plants.  I'm picky.  I have to like the way they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        look!  Will try to stay away from any with big leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much "shade" as possible.  I'm open to suggestions!  Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to hear comments on using driftwood.  It can be SO beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do NOT want to harm my fishies!  Thanks muchly for any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     I have never seen a fake plant that was both cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really I haven't seen one that was real looking. :)  What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants do you want?  It might be easier to try them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they aren't too hard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.  So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is your favorite brand of "fakes"?  Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > appreciated.  My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks!  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4896 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks, Walter...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That's one that I've been zeroing in on, actually. Guess it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sometimes needs trimming...but hey, I have scissors! I've ordered a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bubble wand and a Whisper pump, and the Jungle Val would look "cool"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waving in the bubbles, don'cha think? If I'm wrong, never hesitate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to disagree!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Walter Cain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wjcoldman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I would try Jungle Val in the back of the tank. I have seen it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grow to 24-30 inches and it should do fine with your light system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Drift wood will work alright I have always used it my fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tanks. Good luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm reading now on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low lighting, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall, I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with close to that height for the background, a few middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to like the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > look! Will try to stay away from any with big leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions! Also, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO beautiful, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have never seen a fake plant that was both cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking. :) What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants do you want? It might be easier to try them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate. So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4897 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That would look very good I have done that also. If I think of any other plants that might work I will let you know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Walter

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks, Walter...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That's one that I've been zeroing in on, actually.  Guess it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sometimes needs trimming...but hey, I have scissors!  I've ordered a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bubble wand and a Whisper pump, and the Jungle Val would look "cool"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waving in the bubbles, don'cha think?  If I'm wrong, never hesitate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to disagree!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Walter Cain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wjcoldman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I would try Jungle Val in the back of the tank. I have seen it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grow to 24-30 inches and it should do fine with your light system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Drift wood will work alright I have always used it my fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tanks. Good luck

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, I'm still doing my homework.  From what I'm reading now on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low lighting, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least medium lighting.  Since the tank is 20" tall, I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with close to that height for the background, a few middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and some foreground plants.  I'm picky.  I have to like the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > look!  Will try to stay away from any with big leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much "shade" as possible.  I'm open to suggestions!  Also, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to hear comments on using driftwood.  It can be SO beautiful, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do NOT want to harm my fishies!  Thanks muchly for any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >     I have never seen a fake plant that was both cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking. :)  What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants do you want?  It might be easier to try them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.  So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"?  Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > appreciated.  My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks!  Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4898 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A couple that I really liked were the Myriophyllum elatinoides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Christmas tree plant) and the Hydrocotyle leucocephala (Brazillian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water Ivy). Any comments on these? I surely do wish that the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had shorter, easier to spell and REMEMBER names!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Walter Cain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wjcoldman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That would look very good I have done that also. If I think of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other plants that might work I will let you know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks, Walter...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That's one that I've been zeroing in on, actually. Guess it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sometimes needs trimming...but hey, I have scissors! I've ordered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bubble wand and a Whisper pump, and the Jungle Val would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        look "cool"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > waving in the bubbles, don'cha think? If I'm wrong, never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hesitate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to disagree!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Walter Cain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wjcoldman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I would try Jungle Val in the back of the tank. I have seen it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grow to 24-30 inches and it should do fine with your light system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Drift wood will work alright I have always used it my fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tanks. Good luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm reading now on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low lighting,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall, I'll need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with close to that height for the background, a few middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to like the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > look! Will try to stay away from any with big leaves, to avoid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions! Also, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO beautiful,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I have never seen a fake plant that was both cheap and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking. :) What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > plants do you want? It might be easier to try them and see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy" with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I definitely want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate. So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4899 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you have a picture I can see, then I would happily keep an eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out. I love an excuse to shop!!! grin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think it's just a combination of childhood nostalga and the fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that when you grow up on a ranch and your dad's an electrician you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't throw ANYTHING away. I grew up with the belief that you DON'T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        throw things away because they're old, You fix them and keep using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them. I am always surprised by how many filters people think are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        broken only require a good scrubbing to work perfectly. *smile*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Oh Joy, I've been looking for one of the older, 1970's, Metaframe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > incandescent striplights, the ones with the elongated incandescent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lightbulbs that no one seems to carry anymore. 36 inch long. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happen across one of these for sale please get me in touch with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > seller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Okay....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > grin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the 70's*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4900 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        See? It would have never occured to me that people collect old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium pieces. grin. But that'd be a neat collection item. I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have never thought of it. grin. Guess Im weird. I'd use them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Would they not be safe to use in the aquarium anymore??? I guess it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        depends on the type of firing of the clay that was done, glaze
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        used. WOW. Forgot that they were made back in the day before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dishes were microwave/dishwasher safe. (hard to remember that there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WAS a time before microwaves and dishwashers) hummmmmmmmm. Food for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thought. grin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <stevesz@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Joy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You might want to check the Aquarium Hobby History Society list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo!. You'll find a whole bunch of people interested in these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Right now most of the discussions are on literature, but many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would be not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > adverse to talking about things such as the older DynaFlo you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rescued, not about the porcelain (and other material) decorations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be used in the box. I do know several of the people on the list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > extensive collections of this stuff--some in the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        packaging!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Happy Happy Joy Joy [mailto:joy_of_simon_haza@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power filter 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin. (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the 70's*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4901 From: paul helms Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the silks last much longer than the plastics. they do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not deteriorate or discolor over time, and they look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much more realistic, as they have multiple colors on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the leaves. they don't make them in funky colors,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only natural ones. they may not be "silk" but that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what they are called. they flow better in hte water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as well, like a real plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > How difficult is it to keep the silks looking good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Plastic is SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > easy to keep clean, right? It's mainly what I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now, and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aren't too bad...but I think I can do better with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this new tank. At
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least I'm planning on it. Guess everyone starts out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > expectations, but I surely am seeing a LOT of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aquariums at garage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sales these days!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the silks are the most realistic, but thay are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > My plan is to combine real plants that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So...fishie experts, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4902 From: paul helms Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can retro fit the eclipse with 24, 32, 36, 55, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        65 watt pc bulbs depending on the size of the eclipse,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whether it is a I II or III.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reading now on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lighting, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with close to that height for the background, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > middle heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like the way they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > look! Will try to stay away from any with big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have never seen a fake plant that was both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :) What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants do you want? It might be easier to try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4903 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Unfortunately I haven't got a photo. If I can describe it, it would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be a 36 inch long metal fixture, aproximately the same shape as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flourescent fixture. The incandescent bulbs that it takes are those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        older "sausage" type, maybe six inches long, with the usual screw-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        type base.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you come across one, flag the owner for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you have a picture I can see, then I would happily keep an eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out. I love an excuse to shop!!! grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think it's just a combination of childhood nostalga and the fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that when you grow up on a ranch and your dad's an electrician you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't throw ANYTHING away. I grew up with the belief that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        DON'T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > throw things away because they're old, You fix them and keep using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them. I am always surprised by how many filters people think are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > broken only require a good scrubbing to work perfectly. *smile*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Oh Joy, I've been looking for one of the older, 1970's, Metaframe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > incandescent striplights, the ones with the elongated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        incandescent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > lightbulbs that no one seems to carry anymore. 36 inch long. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > happen across one of these for sale please get me in touch with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > seller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Okay....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > grin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the 70's*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4904 From: Julie Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: (no subject)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anybody here have any experience with crawdads? We have a blue one. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        often should they shed their shell? We have had this one since mid June or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        July, and he has molted 3 times now. Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4905 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks muchly for the info, Paul.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My new aquarium is the Eclipses II hood with a Sea Clear tank, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also have an Eclipse I that's twelve gallons. I have seven guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        two platies and a couple of corycats in it. Am leaning towards a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little school of Diamond Tetras for the 25 tall, once it's planted,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycled and ready.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you can retro fit the eclipse with 24, 32, 36, 55, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 65 watt pc bulbs depending on the size of the eclipse,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whether it is a I II or III.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > reading now on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > lighting, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with close to that height for the background, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > middle heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > like the way they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > look! Will try to stay away from any with big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I have never seen a fake plant that was both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > :) What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > plants do you want? It might be easier to try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4906 From: paul helms Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very normal, the more it ieats the more often it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shed, up to twice a month. they do get large, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive over time. they are usually called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        australians.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Julie <jaramey@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anybody here have any experience with crawdads? We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have a blue one. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > often should they shed their shell? We have had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this one since mid June or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > July, and he has molted 3 times now. Is this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4907 From: freedombell2002 Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just replace my eclipse III light with a Aqua-glo 20w 24" light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have live plants, they were doing okay but could being doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better so we will see. I only replaced one right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you can retro fit the eclipse with 24, 32, 36, 55, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 65 watt pc bulbs depending on the size of the eclipse,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whether it is a I II or III.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > reading now on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > lighting, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with close to that height for the background, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > middle heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > like the way they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > look! Will try to stay away from any with big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I have never seen a fake plant that was both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > :) What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > plants do you want? It might be easier to try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4908 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have some endlers and every night the females are always at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        top of the tank looking like there stressed out and needing air or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something. They have there fins tucked tight and look a little bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but every morning there fine. any suggestions. It's a 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with 12 little endlers and two cory cats. I can't afford the test kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at the moment so I don't know how the water quality is. although it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only at night. sorry to repost but no one answered!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 4909 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You mean when the lights are out?  Sounds normal to me.  You can take about a quart of water to get it tested at a fish store, but if it is only at night it is probably normal.  Sorry I didn't answer the last time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have some endlers and every night the females are always at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          top of the tank looking like there stressed out and needing air or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          something. They have there fins tucked tight and look a little bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but every morning there fine. any suggestions. It's a 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with 12 little endlers and two cory cats. I can't afford the test kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          at the moment so I don't know how the water quality is. although it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          only at night. sorry to repost but no one answered!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4910 From: Jason Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My fish do this when the lights are out. I posted a topic a month
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          or so a go just like this one. If you have a clean tank, with good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filtration and they still do it, then it's normal. My guys have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          been alive and happy for a while acting like this at night.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jason
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          \--- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "iloveguppies"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have some endlers and every night the females are always at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > top of the tank looking like there stressed out and needing air or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something. They have there fins tucked tight and look a little bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but every morning there fine. any suggestions. It's a 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with 12 little endlers and two cory cats. I can't afford the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at the moment so I don't know how the water quality is. although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > only at night. sorry to repost but no one answered!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4911 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No the lights are still on it's usually about 7pm they start, I even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          do water changes but they don't help. also there's a air bubbler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thing. Unfortunatley we don't have a actual fish store to take some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water to. (small town kansas)we have walmart and a little pet store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and soon a new pet store i'm excited about it.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You mean when the lights are out? Sounds normal to me. You can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > about a quart of water to get it tested at a fish store, but if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at night it is probably normal. Sorry I didn't answer the last time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have some endlers and every night the females are always at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > top of the tank looking like there stressed out and needing air or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something. They have there fins tucked tight and look a little bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but every morning there fine. any suggestions. It's a 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with 12 little endlers and two cory cats. I can't afford the test kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at the moment so I don't know how the water quality is. although it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > only at night. sorry to repost but no one answered!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4912 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: ps. thanks for answering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4913 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the lights are still on, but yeah the tank is clean with a filter and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          air bubbler, and once a week water changes. I really would like to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a bigger tank, It's amazing the difference between my 10 gallon and my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          20 gallon. (which is filled with feeder guppies that I love) anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          else have feeder guppies as there fish of choice. Also anyone looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to start a new tank, go for the biggest you can afford.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My fish do this when the lights are out. I posted a topic a month
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or so a go just like this one. If you have a clean tank, with good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtration and they still do it, then it's normal. My guys have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > been alive and happy for a while acting like this at night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Jason
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4914 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: crayfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This site has info on specific crayfish species:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.aqualink.com/fresh/z-crayfish2.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Info on caring for crays: http://www.coolcrayfish.com/Care.html




                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "Julie" <jaramey@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Anybody here have any experience with crawdads? We have a blue one. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > often should they shed their shell? We have had this one since mid June
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > July, and he has molted 3 times now. Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4915 From: Pam Berg Date: 9/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi There,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I, myself don't have any experience with Crayfish, but my boyfriend has one in his tank. He caught it this past spring in the Wisconsin River and it has resided in his aquarium ever since. According to him, it has shed it's shell probably 10 times so far and seems to have a slight change in color each time. I just saw it tonight and it is quite a pretty light blue/grey color now. Thats about the extent of my knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pam
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 2:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Anybody here have any experience with crawdads?  We have a blue one.  How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          often should they shed their shell?  We have had this one since mid June or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          July, and he has molted 3 times now.  Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4916 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You know, if there is a large male to female raio, it could be that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the males are stressing the females by harassing them constantly?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've had male guppies actually kill femail guppies that way

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          At night, they get a breather, but by the end of the day they could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          be just hounded too much? Do they have places to hide from the boys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          during the day? Some nice thick vegetation that could provide some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          rest and cover?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4917 From: Happy Happy Joy Joy Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Vintage Aquatica
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          WILL DO!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Joy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Unfortunately I haven't got a photo. If I can describe it, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > be a 36 inch long metal fixture, aproximately the same shape as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > flourescent fixture. The incandescent bulbs that it takes are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > older "sausage" type, maybe six inches long, with the usual screw-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > type base.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you come across one, flag the owner for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > If you have a picture I can see, then I would happily keep an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > out. I love an excuse to shop!!! grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I think it's just a combination of childhood nostalga and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > that when you grow up on a ranch and your dad's an electrician
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > don't throw ANYTHING away. I grew up with the belief that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > DON'T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > throw things away because they're old, You fix them and keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > them. I am always surprised by how many filters people think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > broken only require a good scrubbing to work perfectly. *smile*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Oh Joy, I've been looking for one of the older, 1970's,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Metaframe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > incandescent striplights, the ones with the elongated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > incandescent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > lightbulbs that no one seems to carry anymore. 36 inch long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > happen across one of these for sale please get me in touch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > seller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Joy Joy" <joy_of_simon_haza@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Okay....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > I KNOW I am running a fever, and am going to use that excuse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > is really weird....but I just found a 1977 Dynaflo Power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > at my local resale shop and I just got it to WORK. grin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > (AMAZING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > what happens when you bother to CLEAN your equipment) Does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > else out there enjoy the look of the old porcelain aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > decorations, or am I alone is this fascination ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > grin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Joy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > *pondering back to watching Mom's angels as a kid in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          70's*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4918 From: Nikki Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hello everyone! My boyfriend bought me a tank last week, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          no clue what to put in it. It is a 12 gallon, I have a heater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filter, etc. What would be good fish to put in it? It's been running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for a little over a week, but I'm not sure what kind of fish can live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in that size tank and what fish go good together. I want something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pretty, not like goldfish. Thanks for any help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4919 From: shortlid Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, I have a two month established 30 gal fresh water tropical tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a Whisper power filter, live plants. I currently have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          rosy Barbs, three Tetras, three Danios, Two 3in. Guimies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (spelling?). I had a problem with sky high Nitrate levels that gave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          teh fish Ick but teh cure stated it would kill Tertas so i just added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Start Right and waited and it went away. My girlfriend wants a angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish should it get along well with teh others?? How about adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          algee eater or a Cory/Catfish??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4920 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Red Dust Algae/Brackish Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Iv got a red dust algae outbreak in my brackish 10-gallon tank which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is home to a small leopard puffer and one dalmation molly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Should I try to get a small otto in there or will they no like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          brackish environment? I can't put snails in due to the puffer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          messing with them and I'm also not sure about snails in brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Any advice would be great. Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          C
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4921 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hello, I bought 12 of them when they where still just fry and as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          grew I have 7 males and 5 females. I bought them online and they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sell them around here so it's hard for me to buy more females.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Although I knew it's like 3 females to each male. I know the males are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          usually trying to show there colors and mate with them, that may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the problem. thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You know, if there is a large male to female raio, it could be that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the males are stressing the females by harassing them constantly?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I've had male guppies actually kill femail guppies that way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > At night, they get a breather, but by the end of the day they could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > be just hounded too much? Do they have places to hide from the boys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > during the day? Some nice thick vegetation that could provide some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rest and cover?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4922 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          oh yeah on places to hide, I have alot of live plants like 15 or more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but the are ones that only have like 4 long straight leaves on them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and one big green hedge plant but they can't really hide in it, and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          little rock with some space inside. (that they sell at walmart. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pictures in the photos' under melanie's photos I'm not sure if you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          see my tank in there, all though it's changed quite a bit.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You know, if there is a large male to female raio, it could be that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the males are stressing the females by harassing them constantly?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I've had male guppies actually kill femail guppies that way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > At night, they get a breather, but by the end of the day they could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > be just hounded too much? Do they have places to hide from the boys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > during the day? Some nice thick vegetation that could provide some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rest and cover?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4923 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Red Dust Algae/Brackish Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          if it is red and there is a good amount of salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          there, itmay be red slime algae which is actually a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bacteria. chemi clean and slime away both work fairly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          well for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Iv got a red dust algae outbreak in my brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10-gallon tank which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is home to a small leopard puffer and one dalmation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > molly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Should I try to get a small otto in there or will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they no like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > brackish environment? I can't put snails in due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the puffer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > messing with them and I'm also not sure about snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Any advice would be great. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > C
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4924 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i owuld not add asingle angel, it will probably not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mae it. if you want them, i would add three or four
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so they have a small group for safety.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi, I have a two month established 30 gal fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water tropical tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a Whisper power filter, live plants. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > currently have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rosy Barbs, three Tetras, three Danios, Two 3in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Guimies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (spelling?). I had a problem with sky high Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > levels that gave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > teh fish Ick but teh cure stated it would kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tertas so i just added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Start Right and waited and it went away. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > girlfriend wants a angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish should it get along well with teh others?? How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > about adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > algee eater or a Cory/Catfish??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4925 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you have another 4-5 weeks to wait before it is safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for you to put in fish, so take your time and check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          out what is available in your area. make sure to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          out what is compatable with the ones you like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Nikki <babyo0ogirl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello everyone! My boyfriend bought me a tank last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > week, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > no clue what to put in it. It is a 12 gallon, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a heater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter, etc. What would be good fish to put in it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > It's been running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for a little over a week, but I'm not sure what kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of fish can live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in that size tank and what fish go good together. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > want something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pretty, not like goldfish. Thanks for any help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4926 From: bucks_boogie@webtv.net Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: bumble bee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It's so funny you said that Nim. Had a fellow manager at PetSmart do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just that. She scooped up 2 BB's and then put 2 zebras in the specimen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cup, when she reached back with a bag, both zebras had been gobbled up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to their dorsal fins, 2/3 of the fish still hanging out of their mouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Quite a sight....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Damaged and I like it. It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4927 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tetras, lots of them. :) How about 10 glolights and 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cardinals. Of course you can't just throw that many fish in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          once, you have to get the tank cycled first. I suggest a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle. Do a google search for "fishless cycle" and ask questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The first thing to do is add lots of plants, sword plants, banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          plants, some java fern. This will not only help start and finish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the nitrogen cycle, it will give whatever fish you get a nice home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that will have places to hide or rest when need those places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are bottles that claim to have live bacteria. As far as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          know the only ones that really do are Bio spira and Fritz Zyme, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          there are rare cases of others working too. I think Stress zyme is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          one that is brought up pretty often around here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nikki"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <babyo0ogirl@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello everyone! My boyfriend bought me a tank last week, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > no clue what to put in it. It is a 12 gallon, I have a heater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter, etc. What would be good fish to put in it? It's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for a little over a week, but I'm not sure what kind of fish can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in that size tank and what fish go good together. I want something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pretty, not like goldfish. Thanks for any help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4928 From: bucks_boogie@webtv.net Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It's easy to confuse the 2 Paul, but the australian is different than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the electric blue. The eb is the same species raised here for food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just some showed the blue instead of the common brown to red and became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          selectively bred. The ab is a less expensive pincher because that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          their normal appearence. Before I left my last store, 3 weeks ago, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would order only the ab's because they'd sell for about $5 instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          almost $20 for the eb's. They are nowhere as nice (or blue) as the eb's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Damaged and I like it. It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4929 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i don't know what state you are in, but the australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          blue "lobsters" are sold in california for $20.00, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          don't know where you would get them for $5.00, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          am curous to find out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- bucks_boogie@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > It's easy to confuse the 2 Paul, but the australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is different than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the electric blue. The eb is the same species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > raised here for food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > just some showed the blue instead of the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > brown to red and became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > selectively bred. The ab is a less expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pincher because that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > their normal appearence. Before I left my last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > store, 3 weeks ago, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > would order only the ab's because they'd sell for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > about $5 instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > almost $20 for the eb's. They are nowhere as nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (or blue) as the eb's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Damaged and I like it. It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4930 From: shortlid Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK, so they are schooling fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i owuld not add asingle angel, it will probably not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > mae it. if you want them, i would add three or four
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > so they have a small group for safety.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- shortlid <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hi, I have a two month established 30 gal fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > water tropical tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I have a Whisper power filter, live plants. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > currently have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > rosy Barbs, three Tetras, three Danios, Two 3in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Guimies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > (spelling?). I had a problem with sky high Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > levels that gave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > teh fish Ick but teh cure stated it would kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Tertas so i just added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Start Right and waited and it went away. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > girlfriend wants a angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish should it get along well with teh others?? How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > about adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > algee eater or a Cory/Catfish??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4931 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          we can get "blue lobsters" here in new york for $5. it just depends on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the size. most "blue lobsters" sold in the us are just regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          crayfish. 1 in 1000 are blue naturally and you can breed pools of blues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          if you have the time and inclination.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Sep 13, 2004, at 3:57 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i don't know what state you are in, but the australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > blue "lobsters" are sold in california for $20.00, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > don't know where you would get them for $5.00, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > am curous to find out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- bucks_boogie@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > It's easy to confuse the 2 Paul, but the australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > is different than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the electric blue.  The eb is the same species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > raised here for food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > just some showed the blue instead of the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > brown to red and became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > selectively bred.  The ab is a less expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > pincher because that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > their normal appearence.  Before I left my last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > store, 3 weeks ago, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > would order only the ab's because they'd sell for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > about $5 instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > almost $20 for the eb's.  They are nowhere as nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > (or blue) as the eb's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > "Damaged and I like it.  It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4932 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Single angels do fine by themselves...it's actually in larger groups that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          agression can start, especially if any of them pair off. I've kept an angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          singly in both my 29g and 30g for quite some time. The general rule is 20g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          per angel, one would be fine in a 30g and would look nice as a centerpiece
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The main concern would be what sort of tetras you have. If they are neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          then an angel is a 'no' since neons are natural prey for angels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >i owuld not add asingle angel, it will probably not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > mae it. if you want them, i would add three or four
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > so they have a small group for safety.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4933 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you have any idea what type of tetras and gouramis you have? That would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          really help in determining stock levels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As a quick start the rosy barbs generally do better in larger groups as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cuts down on nipping. Same with the danios. Tetras are schooling and while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not usually agressive they do better in groups of at least 5 or 6. If the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank has established algae you could have a few otos. They aren't schooling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but like the company of their own kind. They are a bit sensitive though and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          another option would be a BN plec. Doesn't get too large, has an interesting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          look, and does a great job with algae. Cories don't eat algae, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bottom feeders who basically clean up left-over food, although they still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          need to be fed. They are another schooling fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "shortlid" <shortlid@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi, I have a two month established 30 gal fresh water tropical tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a Whisper power filter, live plants. I currently have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rosy Barbs, three Tetras, three Danios, Two 3in. Guimies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (spelling?). I had a problem with sky high Nitrate levels that gave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > teh fish Ick but teh cure stated it would kill Tertas so i just added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Start Right and waited and it went away. My girlfriend wants a angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish should it get along well with teh others?? How about adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > algee eater or a Cory/Catfish??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4934 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A lot depends on individual taste. A good suggestion would be to go to your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lfs, make a list of what fish are available that interest you and let us
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          know what those are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The general rule in stocking is 1 inch of adult fish (minus the tail) per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gallon of water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "Nikki" <babyo0ogirl@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello everyone! My boyfriend bought me a tank last week, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > no clue what to put in it. It is a 12 gallon, I have a heater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter, etc. What would be good fish to put in it? It's been running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for a little over a week, but I'm not sure what kind of fish can live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in that size tank and what fish go good together. I want something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pretty, not like goldfish. Thanks for any help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4935 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks to all of you for your replies. I'm going to keep an eye on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my plants and keep in mind that I can replace the bulbs, if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I appreciate all the information...I just love these forums!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "freedombell2002"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I just replace my eclipse III light with a Aqua-glo 20w 24" light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have live plants, they were doing okay but could being doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > better so we will see. I only replaced one right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you can retro fit the eclipse with 24, 32, 36, 55, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 65 watt pc bulbs depending on the size of the eclipse,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > whether it is a I II or III.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Well, I'm still doing my homework. From what I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > reading now on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > internet, the Eclipse isn't known for it's fantastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > lighting....so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > am trying to find some plants that are okay with low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > lighting, or at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > least medium lighting. Since the tank is 20" tall,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I'll need some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > with close to that height for the background, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > middle heights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and some foreground plants. I'm picky. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > like the way they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > look! Will try to stay away from any with big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > leaves, to avoid as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > much "shade" as possible. I'm open to suggestions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > do NOT want to harm my fishies! Thanks muchly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > any help...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I really do appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > I have never seen a fake plant that was both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > cheap and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > looking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > really I haven't seen one that was real looking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > :) What types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > of "hard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > plants do you want? It might be easier to try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > them and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > happens if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > they aren't too hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > My plan is to combine real plants that are "easy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > with realistic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > ones of the types that are "difficult", but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > definitely want the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > most REALISTIC plants that I can locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > So...fishie experts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > is your favorite brand of "fakes"? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > suggestions will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > appreciated. My new tank is a Eclipse 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Thanks! Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4936 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've heard that putting some rocks and/or gravel from an established
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank will be good when starting a new tank. If so, how long do we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          usually have to wait to introduce fish into the tank? Also, how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          MUCH rock or gravel is enough to get the job done?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          AmericanFishGuy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tetras, lots of them. :) How about 10 glolights and 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cardinals. Of course you can't just throw that many fish in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > once, you have to get the tank cycled first. I suggest a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle. Do a google search for "fishless cycle" and ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > The first thing to do is add lots of plants, sword plants, banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants, some java fern. This will not only help start and finish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the nitrogen cycle, it will give whatever fish you get a nice home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that will have places to hide or rest when need those places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > There are bottles that claim to have live bacteria. As far as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > know the only ones that really do are Bio spira and Fritz Zyme,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there are rare cases of others working too. I think Stress zyme
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > one that is brought up pretty often around here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nikki"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <babyo0ogirl@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hello everyone! My boyfriend bought me a tank last week, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > no clue what to put in it. It is a 12 gallon, I have a heater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > filter, etc. What would be good fish to put in it? It's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > for a little over a week, but I'm not sure what kind of fish can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > in that size tank and what fish go good together. I want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > pretty, not like goldfish. Thanks for any help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4937 From: cgyguyca Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're made of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 4938 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The mulm (junk) that is down in the gravel is probably better than the gravel, since it is covered by the bacteria.  Just vacuum that out with a gravel vacuum and dump it into your tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've heard that putting some rocks and/or gravel from an established
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank will be good when starting a new tank.  If so, how long do we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            usually have to wait to introduce fish into the tank?  Also, how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            MUCH rock or gravel is enough to get the job done?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4939 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: New Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well if you are not using something to cycle with it won't do it on it's own.  You need to do a fishless cycle or a fish cycle.  Both are pretty much pretty easy to do, but if you do a fish cycle plan on doing water changes everyday until it cycles.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 12:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] New Tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you have another 4-5 weeks to wait before it is safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for you to put in fish, so take your time and check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out what is available in your area.  make sure to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out what is  compatable with the ones you like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Nikki <babyo0ogirl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hello everyone! My boyfriend bought me a tank last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > week, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > no clue what to put in it. It is a 12 gallon, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a heater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter, etc. What would be good fish to put in it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > It's been running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for a little over a week, but I'm not sure what kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of fish can live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in that size tank and what fish go good together. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > want something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pretty, not like goldfish. Thanks for any help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4940 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well not a great one on "Mud Bugs". there are about 200 species of them in NA alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Molting is just their way of getting a new skeleton. if they are fed well they grow fast and visa versa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on adverage they molt twice a year but like I said , I'm not an expert on these guys.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The blue gene was once very ,  very rare but know  they can juggle the genes around and can get blues almost as easy as a standard crawfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But the blues are cool. One little problem with mud bugs, they pick off fish at night if they get a chance. I once had a species that could live without claws and made for a great janitor. but the species  I see sold at the LFS can't live w/ out claws and it's not worth taking trhe chance. but I bid you the best of luck. MJB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Julie wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Anybody here have any experience with crawdads?  We have a blue one.  How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            often should they shed their shell?  We have had this one since mid June or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            July, and he has molted 3 times now.  Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4941 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: licorice gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Greetings Theresa,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WOW , I am in envy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had a pair of Pseudosphromenus Dayi but they didn't do so well even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            when placed in their own outdoor pond. I wouild like to hear about your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            set-up and progress as gourami's are my main group I raise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            MJB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Dan & Theresa wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm in the process of setting up an Asian biotope tank, right now I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have sparkling gouramis (Trichopsis pumilus), three-striped croaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gouramis (T. schalleri), spiketailed paradisefish (Pseudosphromenus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cupanus) and kuhlis. I'd like to add licorice gouramis as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > well...I'm wondering if anyone has them or has kept them in the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Any info about keeping them would be great, also how best to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > them: singly, pairs, group?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4942 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There's nothing in the world that can compare with that beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            rich green color hue of a lush, healthy Amazon sword plant. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            haven't made the material that can come close to the look of that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            natural beauty yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't mean to be a snob about plants, vis a vis plastic, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            really isn't any comparison. An immitation plant is just another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ornamaent, designed in the shape of a plant; might as well put a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ceramic mermaid in the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And there's nothing wrong with mermaids in the tank, but if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            really want to do your tank so it "feels right", put at least a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            natural plants in there along with your composites: I bet you find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            after six months that the real plants make the artificial look puny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            by comparison, and you'll have that satisfaction of having maintained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            your aquarium "plant clean".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            JMHO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <ghost7@t...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4943 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Have you considered whether or not the water might be just a tad on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the cold side for the fish and that they are coming up to slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            warmer water?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "iloveguppies"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > No the lights are still on it's usually about 7pm they start, I even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > do water changes but they don't help. also there's a air bubbler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thing. Unfortunatley we don't have a actual fish store to take some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water to. (small town kansas)we have walmart and a little pet store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and soon a new pet store i'm excited about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > You mean when the lights are out? Sounds normal to me. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > about a quart of water to get it tested at a fish store, but if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > at night it is probably normal. Sorry I didn't answer the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I have some endlers and every night the females are always at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > top of the tank looking like there stressed out and needing air or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > something. They have there fins tucked tight and look a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > but every morning there fine. any suggestions. It's a 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > with 12 little endlers and two cory cats. I can't afford the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > at the moment so I don't know how the water quality is. although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > only at night. sorry to repost but no one answered!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4944 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in addition to this, amazon swords are really really easy to grow, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in only mediocre light conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Sep 13, 2004, at 10:51 PM, radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > There's nothing in the world that can compare with that beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > rich green color hue of a lush, healthy Amazon sword plant. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > haven't made the material that can come close to the look of that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > natural beauty yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I don't mean to be a snob about plants, vis a vis plastic, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > really isn't any comparison. An immitation plant is just another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ornamaent, designed in the shape of a plant; might as well put a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ceramic mermaid in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > And there's nothing wrong with mermaids in the tank, but if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > really want to do your tank so it "feels right", put at least a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > natural plants in there along with your composites: I bet you find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > after six months that the real plants make the artificial look puny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > by comparison, and you'll have that satisfaction of having maintained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > your aquarium "plant clean".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > JMHO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <ghost7@t...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4945 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks, I looked at their site and have ordered the catalog. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            definitely would only want VERY realistic plants. Good to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            actual brand names...I appreciate it!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <ghost7@t...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4946 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi, Stan...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I totally agree with you. I won't put anything in my aquariums that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            looks artificial. No mermaids either! I see tons of ornaments that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            seem to be quite popular, but they aren't the look I'm after. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            like a beautiful NATURAL look!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in addition to this, amazon swords are really really easy to grow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in only mediocre light conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > On Sep 13, 2004, at 10:51 PM, radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > There's nothing in the world that can compare with that beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > rich green color hue of a lush, healthy Amazon sword plant. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > haven't made the material that can come close to the look of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > natural beauty yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I don't mean to be a snob about plants, vis a vis plastic, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > really isn't any comparison. An immitation plant is just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ornamaent, designed in the shape of a plant; might as well put a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ceramic mermaid in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > And there's nothing wrong with mermaids in the tank, but if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > really want to do your tank so it "feels right", put at least a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > natural plants in there along with your composites: I bet you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > after six months that the real plants make the artificial look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            puny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > by comparison, and you'll have that satisfaction of having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            maintained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > your aquarium "plant clean".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > JMHO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > <ghost7@t...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4947 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The replacement plants arrived today, spending much less time in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mail than last time and so looking so much better when they arrived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Now I know what foxtail is really supposed to look like, rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that digested letuce that showed up last time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I really have to give the guy at AquariumGarden.com high kudos for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            his response to poor mail: He did right by me, replacing everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            from the previous order and didn't even charge me the extra shipping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Some very nice plants too, the dwarf swords have a florescence on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them, the laceleaf is mongo! Definately check this guy out if you're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            looking for aquarium or pond plants. His stuff is a bit more that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cheapest but the quality of his plants is superior to the cheaper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            place so it makes up the difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan





                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My mail order plants finally arrived today, after a week in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tranist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Really, it wasn't the fault of the shipper, the postage proved he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shipped when he said he did, but the post office didn't cooperate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they sat around for a week. He already promised to send me another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > batch so I still hold him in high regard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Amazingly enough a few plants actually did survive the week in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > dark but much of it is mush now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The tank is looking good otherwise, the neons are having a ball
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the tank to themselves. I saw more spawing going on tonight,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > different behavior than the previous spawing. And the catfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > having a grand time devouring those neon eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I believe that I have 7 females and 4 males, so the guys are having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to put in extra duty! Its great how the group stops schooling and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > goes into the spawing mode.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Also I think I've seen the breeding male change color. You know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > neons have that stripe that is anywhere from blue to turquoise,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the male who is doing the spawing his stripe turns a deep purple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I've seen this happen several times now and think its a part of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > spawing behavior.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4948 From: paul helms Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yes, but are they the elctric blue sor the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            australians?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i checked with our distributors today, and our cost on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a true australian blue is just under $10.00, and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is the wholesale price. they retail in california for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            $18-$30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > we can get "blue lobsters" here in new york for $5.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it just depends on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the size. most "blue lobsters" sold in the us are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > just regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > crayfish. 1 in 1000 are blue naturally and you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breed pools of blues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > if you have the time and inclination.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > On Sep 13, 2004, at 3:57 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > i don't know what state you are in, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > blue "lobsters" are sold in california for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > $20.00, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > don't know where you would get them for $5.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > am curous to find out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- bucks_boogie@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > It's easy to confuse the 2 Paul, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > is different than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the electric blue.� The eb is the same species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > raised here for food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > just some showed the blue instead of the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > brown to red and became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > selectively bred.� The ab is a less expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > pincher because that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > their normal appearence.� Before I left my last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > store, 3 weeks ago, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > would order only the ab's because they'd sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > about $5 instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > almost $20 for the eb's.� They are nowhere as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > (or blue) as the eb's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > "Damaged and I like it.� It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4949 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i have no idea what species, but they're practically neon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Sep 14, 2004, at 12:25 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yes, but are they the elctric blue sor the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > australians?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > i checked with our distributors today, and our cost on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a true australian blue is just under $10.00, and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is the wholesale price. they retail in california for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > $18-$30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> we can get "blue lobsters" here in new york for $5.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> it just depends on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> the size. most "blue lobsters" sold in the us are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> just regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> crayfish. 1 in 1000 are blue naturally and you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> breed pools of blues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> if you have the time and inclination.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> On Sep 13, 2004, at 3:57 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>> i don't know what state you are in, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>> blue "lobsters" are sold in california for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> $20.00, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>> don't know where you would get them for $5.00,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>> am curous to find out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>> --- bucks_boogie@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> It's easy to confuse the 2 Paul, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> australian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> is different than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> the electric blue.  The eb is the same species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> raised here for food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> just some showed the blue instead of the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> brown to red and became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> selectively bred.  The ab is a less expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> pincher because that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> their normal appearence.  Before I left my last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> store, 3 weeks ago, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> would order only the ab's because they'd sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> about $5 instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> almost $20 for the eb's.  They are nowhere as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> (or blue) as the eb's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>> "Damaged and I like it.  It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4950 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thanks Barb. I don't mean to be a snob about aquarium decor, to each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            his own, but there is a synergy that exists in a planted aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            between the plants and the critters. amalthea has a very good point,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            swords and many other plants are so very easy to care for, thirving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on minimal effort, not requiring anything other than the lights that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            most people already have.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And don't you think that the fish don't know the difference! I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            just bet that if fish could talk they would give you an earful about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            their preference for natural plants. :) Of course if I had a talking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish I would buy him most anything that he asked for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi, Stan...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I totally agree with you. I won't put anything in my aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > looks artificial. No mermaids either! I see tons of ornaments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > seem to be quite popular, but they aren't the look I'm after. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like a beautiful NATURAL look!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > in addition to this, amazon swords are really really easy to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            grow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > in only mediocre light conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > On Sep 13, 2004, at 10:51 PM, radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > There's nothing in the world that can compare with that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > rich green color hue of a lush, healthy Amazon sword plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > haven't made the material that can come close to the look of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > natural beauty yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I don't mean to be a snob about plants, vis a vis plastic, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > really isn't any comparison. An immitation plant is just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ornamaent, designed in the shape of a plant; might as well put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ceramic mermaid in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > And there's nothing wrong with mermaids in the tank, but if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > really want to do your tank so it "feels right", put at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > natural plants in there along with your composites: I bet you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > after six months that the real plants make the artificial look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > puny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > by comparison, and you'll have that satisfaction of having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > maintained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > your aquarium "plant clean".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > JMHO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > -- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > <ghost7@t...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >  
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4951 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree, Penn Plax plants are quite nice. All but one of my tanks are fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            planted. I only have Penn Plax plants in the one that isn't and most people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a hard time believing the plants are artificial.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: "cgyguyca" <ghost7@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're made of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4952 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks, Theresa...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The more input, the better! I'm VERY picky, so won't go with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            anything that doesn't look pretty darn real. I AM going to try my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            best to go with as many real plants as possible, but not bad to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a "plan B" in mind! I want SOOOO badly to have beautiful aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that are not only pleasing to the eye, but give my fishies the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            quality of life that I can provide. I have a funny feeling that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            most everyone on this forum would tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I agree, Penn Plax plants are quite nice. All but one of my tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > planted. I only have Penn Plax plants in the one that isn't and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            most people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have a hard time believing the plants are artificial.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "cgyguyca" <ghost7@t...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            made of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4953 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I know wha'cha mean. Being a BIG animal lover, I'm already learning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that it effects me very badly when I lose a fish. I need to do my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            very best to learn how to make the fishes environment the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            possible for them. The bonus is that it will, hopefully, save me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the grief of finding sick or dead fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thanks Barb. I don't mean to be a snob about aquarium decor, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > his own, but there is a synergy that exists in a planted aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > between the plants and the critters. amalthea has a very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            point,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > swords and many other plants are so very easy to care for,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thirving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > on minimal effort, not requiring anything other than the lights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > most people already have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > And don't you think that the fish don't know the difference! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > just bet that if fish could talk they would give you an earful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > their preference for natural plants. :) Of course if I had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            talking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish I would buy him most anything that he asked for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi, Stan...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I totally agree with you. I won't put anything in my aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > looks artificial. No mermaids either! I see tons of ornaments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > seem to be quite popular, but they aren't the look I'm after. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > like a beautiful NATURAL look!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > in addition to this, amazon swords are really really easy to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > grow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > in only mediocre light conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > On Sep 13, 2004, at 10:51 PM, radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > There's nothing in the world that can compare with that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > rich green color hue of a lush, healthy Amazon sword plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > haven't made the material that can come close to the look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > natural beauty yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I don't mean to be a snob about plants, vis a vis plastic,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > really isn't any comparison. An immitation plant is just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > ornamaent, designed in the shape of a plant; might as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > ceramic mermaid in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > And there's nothing wrong with mermaids in the tank, but if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > really want to do your tank so it "feels right", put at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > natural plants in there along with your composites: I bet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > after six months that the real plants make the artificial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > puny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > by comparison, and you'll have that satisfaction of having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > maintained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > your aquarium "plant clean".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > JMHO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > -- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > <ghost7@t...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4954 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: gouramis/paradisefish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They were actually a lucky find. I noticed something different in a lfs I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            regularly visit, they were in a small tank labelled 'small gouramis' so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            said I'd take them all (3)!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Currently the tank has a nice, large piece of driftwood and floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            anacharis. Substrate is just polished pebbles until I get some Fluorite or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Eco-complete. I have Then I'll be ordering an Asian plant assortment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (crypts, vals, hygro).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Unfortunately I had a couple losses...right now I believe there are 2 T.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            schalleri, 3 T. pumilus, and 2 P. cupanus, as well as 2 very small kuhlis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm still not sure about adding the licorice gouramis...also considering a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            school of harlequin rasboras and researching other Asian fish for the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I my 29g I have a paradisefish pair who recently attempted their first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            spawning, that was quite amazing to see. I also keep pearl and moonlight
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gouramis.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa




                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...>



                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Greetings Theresa,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > WOW , I am in envy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I had a pair of Pseudosphromenus Dayi but they didn't do so well even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > when placed in their own outdoor pond. I wouild like to hear about your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > set-up and progress as gourami's are my main group I raise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4955 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Stubborn well water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have learned that my tap water is a pain to condition. I've never bothered messing with the pH or hardness in my tanks as my other tanks are for turtles and african cichlids so the hard alkaline water wasn't an issue. But wanted soft acidic water in my planted tank. Well im using an acid buffer that lowers pH by converting kH to C02 i think. By the directions i should be at like a pH of 5 with the amount I've used I've managed to get from 8 to 7.8 and my gH has dropped from 12 to 9. Took it a week of treatments just to show any change, So I can definately say in future for water changes either I'll be preconditioning the water or using distilled or RO water. Oh while i've being using the acid buffer i've also been using tetra blackwater conditioner thus far i've used enough for 100 gallons in my 50 gallon tank. No wonder my africans like it so much. My only worry now is that i will reach the buffering capacity of the water and go to far on the soft acidic side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4956 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            H'lo all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               On the Penn-Plax decorata........

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I like their stuff, that which I've bought, but had one problem with their 'snap-together' rocks. One of my Corydoras' got stuck between them after swimming in of course, and died. Be careful about the sizes of fish and fixed sizes of decoration please.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I agree, Penn Plax plants are quite nice. All but one of my tanks are fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > planted. I only have Penn Plax plants in the one that isn't and most people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have a hard time believing the plants are artificial.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "cgyguyca"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Barb... take a look at some of the Penn Plax plants, they're made of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a silky material rather than hard plastic. Though not a replacement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for the real thing you can mix them in to fill space without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > similar to a real plant. Try a couple and see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4957 From: shortlid Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well I tested last night and my Amonia and Nitrate are up again no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            adding till I get it under control! First tonight I am doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            though gravel vac. I have 1/4" aquarium pebbles on top of a layer of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            standard gravel. I think I am going to mix it up the gravel/stones a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bit. Then Wed I am going to change the Whisper filter but not teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bacteria sponge. Sound like A GOOD PLAN??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Joel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > OK, so they are schooling fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > i owuld not add asingle angel, it will probably not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > mae it. if you want them, i would add three or four
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > so they have a small group for safety.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- shortlid <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Hi, I have a two month established 30 gal fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > water tropical tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I have a Whisper power filter, live plants. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > currently have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > rosy Barbs, three Tetras, three Danios, Two 3in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Guimies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > (spelling?). I had a problem with sky high Nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > levels that gave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > teh fish Ick but teh cure stated it would kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Tertas so i just added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Start Right and waited and it went away. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > girlfriend wants a angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish should it get along well with teh others?? How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > about adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > algee eater or a Cory/Catfish??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4958 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm with you, except, like my garden I want a beautiful natural look,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with one or two UNnatural surprises. I think it's funny to have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            georgeous underwater garden with fish and one really odd thing. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            eldest daughter put some dice in her tank, my youngest put some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            marbles in hers, and my mom had an old fasioned diver with opening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and closing treasure chest...LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi, Stan...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I totally agree with you. I won't put anything in my aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > looks artificial. No mermaids either! I see tons of ornaments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > seem to be quite popular, but they aren't the look I'm after. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like a beautiful NATURAL look!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > tank looking garish. Since they're silky they move with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4959 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Stubborn well water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jonathon, get yourself some peat moss from a garden store..not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            finely milled stuff, the stuf they use to line baskets with. Run
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            your water through that. Also steeping citrus peels helps to control
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            alkalinity, so make yourself some lemonade, limeade, whatever, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            save the peels for the water. Saving rainwater also works. WE have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            terribly alkaline tap water around here, not sure why, so I always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            add some peat moss to the carbon filters when we change them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4960 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Best brand of artificial plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i keep a hypodermic needle in the bottom of mine, i know where you're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            coming from lol...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Sep 14, 2004, at 2:39 PM, cynthia brennemann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm with you, except, like my garden I want a beautiful natural look,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with one or two UNnatural surprises.  I think it's funny to have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > georgeous underwater garden with fish and one really odd thing.  My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > eldest daughter put some dice in her tank, my youngest put some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > marbles in hers, and my mom had an old fasioned diver with opening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and closing treasure chest...LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4961 From: iloveguppies Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Female fish stressing out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I never thought about that, I guess because it was only the females.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I actually seperated the females and put them in a 3 gallon tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            awhile to see if they're just stressed from the males. but it may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that it's cooler at night I'll keep an eye on the temps at night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            though thanks.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Have you considered whether or not the water might be just a tad on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the cold side for the fish and that they are coming up to slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > warmer water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4962 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Don't use a gravel vacuum until things are under control. A lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of the good bacteria that you need is in the mulm, which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            basically what you suck up in the gravel vacuum. Get out too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and it will cause a major set back in the nitrogen cycle. Same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thing for the filter. If you mean the filter cartrdige, just was it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out in a small amount of tank water and keep using it. Are you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mixing up nitrAte and nitrIte? Remember, nitrItes are dangerous at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            levels under 1, nitrAtes are safe at levels over 20.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Well I tested last night and my Amonia and Nitrate are up again no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > adding till I get it under control! First tonight I am doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > though gravel vac. I have 1/4" aquarium pebbles on top of a layer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > standard gravel. I think I am going to mix it up the gravel/stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bit. Then Wed I am going to change the Whisper filter but not teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bacteria sponge. Sound like A GOOD PLAN??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4963 From: k8sl8 Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have had a pond for 7 years and bring my fish inside to winter. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had goldfish for 4 years (reproduced like crazy - and I kept a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bunch!) until they met with a huge unfortunate accident (read human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            error) and have had koi for the past 3.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have a 55 gallon aquarium and use 2 whisper filters that I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            like to replace with something more efficient - and hopefully less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            maintenance. Keep in mind this tank is maxed out - but with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filters, 2 air pumps and pretty good maintenance - everyone seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            happy and healthy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My question is: Is there much difference between the commercially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            available external filters? Should I double the capacity as I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with the whisper filters? (go more than the recommended 55 gal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            output?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I searched the archives, but really haven't found this addressed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (Sure wish yahoo would improve the ability to search more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            page at a time, lol.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for any input.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Kathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4964 From: shortlid Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have to much amonia and nitrites! I have to do something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish will die right!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            AmericanFishGuy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Don't use a gravel vacuum until things are under control. A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of the good bacteria that you need is in the mulm, which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > basically what you suck up in the gravel vacuum. Get out too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and it will cause a major set back in the nitrogen cycle. Same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thing for the filter. If you mean the filter cartrdige, just was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > out in a small amount of tank water and keep using it. Are you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mixing up nitrAte and nitrIte? Remember, nitrItes are dangerous at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > levels under 1, nitrAtes are safe at levels over 20.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Well I tested last night and my Amonia and Nitrate are up again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > adding till I get it under control! First tonight I am doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > though gravel vac. I have 1/4" aquarium pebbles on top of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            layer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > standard gravel. I think I am going to mix it up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gravel/stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bit. Then Wed I am going to change the Whisper filter but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bacteria sponge. Sound like A GOOD PLAN??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4965 From: dragonsangel79 Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: help!!!please what is this fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            we just inheirited a fish tank with some fish and i have been able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to identify all but two( same kind-i belive one is male and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            female) to see them go to photo album -help please(the bigger fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in the middle of image 2 is one of them[male???]). i have a feeling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they(or atleast the male) are tring to mate and the female looks a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            little stressed out. do i need to remove her?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4966 From: harry perry Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: licorice gourami/To Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've noticed in a couple of your posts in various groups, you mention outdoor ponds. Where do you live? I'm thinking water temp. ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Greetings Theresa,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WOW , I am in envy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had a pair of  Pseudosphromenus Dayi but they didn't do so well even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            when placed in their own outdoor pond. I wouild like to hear about your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            set-up and progress as gourami's are my main group I raise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            MJB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Dan & Theresa wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm in the process of setting up an Asian biotope tank, right now I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have sparkling gouramis (Trichopsis pumilus), three-striped croaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gouramis (T. schalleri), spiketailed paradisefish (Pseudosphromenus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cupanus) and kuhlis. I'd like to add licorice gouramis as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > well...I'm wondering if anyone has them or has kept them in the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Any info about keeping them would be great, also how best to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > them: singly, pairs, group?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4967 From: dragonsangel79 Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: new member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hi i'm andrea but call me andy, the one who inheirited the fish. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had/still have two bettas blue and "blue too"(who is red-my twoyear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            old named him) then we are fish sitting another betta also named
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            blue. then we got the tank and 16 fish i'll list them all later(i'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            still learning what name goes to who). i'm getting a bigger tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the 16 and will be moving my bettas up from sharing a ten(with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            divider)gallon to each having their own ten gallon. i would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            put some other fish in with them but are not sure what i can i've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            found a lot of differing "advice" from web sites-does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have "hands on" wisdom to share with me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a new fish fan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            andy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            p.s. as you will find out i can't spell very well, please forgive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            me for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4968 From: Darcy Kane Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My name is Darcy and I teach a wonderful class of happy Kindergarteners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In our classroom we have a 55 gallon aquarium which houses one small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            freshwater small-mouthed bass. Nemo, I mean what else would Kindy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            students name their fish, is about 5 inches long and happily dines on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            diet of brine shrimp which I carefully feed him to make sure he isn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            overfed. The tank has a stone bottom and two chunks of rose quarts as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            well as a few plastic plants. I use an aerator and large filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hangs on the side of the tank. Sounds wonderful doesn't it? Well there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is trouble in paradise. My tank is cloudy and no matter how often I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            change the water I don't seem able to keep it clear. The teacher across
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the hall has a tank (empty right now) that is crystal clear, and even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the tank with the two gigantic goldfish is clearer than mine. HELP!! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hate a cloudy tank, what am I doing wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Darcy and Nemo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 4969 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, do a water change, about half. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have to much amonia and nitrites!  I have to do something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish will die right!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 4970 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I remember him before he was famous for his fair business practices. :)  I have never bought from him, but if I ever buy plants through the mail, he will be the guy I'll call!  Plus he has a great web site with lots of information about plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The replacement plants arrived today, spending much less time in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mail than last time and so looking so much better when they arrived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Now I know what foxtail is really supposed to look like, rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that digested letuce that showed up last time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I really have to give the guy at AquariumGarden.com high kudos for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                his response to poor mail: He did right by me, replacing everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from the previous order and didn't even charge me the extra shipping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Some very nice plants too, the dwarf swords have a florescence on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them, the laceleaf is mongo!  Definately check this guy out if you're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                looking for aquarium or pond plants. His stuff is a bit more that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cheapest but the quality of his plants is superior to the cheaper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                place so it makes up the difference. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 4971 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: new member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      U candt speel weld?  Oatkay.   I am happy to hear you are giving betta their own 10 gallons, if they can feel emotions they will be happy. :)  For the other fish, you need to stay away from fish with large back fins, gouramis, male bettas, less than 3 female bettas, fish that bite (barbs, black tetras and tetras shaped like black tetras [piranha-shaped], but those shaped like neons and glolights are probably ok), and probably cichlids.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hi i'm andrea but call me andy, the one who inheirited the fish. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  had/still have two bettas blue and "blue too"(who is red-my twoyear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  old named him) then we are fish sitting another betta also named
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  blue. then we got the tank and 16 fish i'll list them all later(i'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  still learning what name goes to who). i'm getting a bigger tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the 16 and will be moving my bettas up from sharing a ten(with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  divider)gallon to each having their own ten gallon. i would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  put some other fish in with them but are not sure what i can i've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  found a lot of differing "advice" from web sites-does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have  "hands on" wisdom to share with me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     a new fish fan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           andy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  p.s. as you will find out i can't spell very well, please forgive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  me for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4972 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would recommend you use the largest Aqua Clear Filter, it's used to be called the 500 but the have changed the names. Your LFS should known what I am talking about. This is my choice if you want a hang on the back filter. If you want a filter that sets under or along side the aquarium then I would choose the largest Fluval (404) it is also an excellent filter. I currently use both of these filters on my salt water and my plant tank. I hope this has helped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Walter

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  k8sl8 <k8sl8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had a pond for 7 years and bring my fish inside to winter.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  had goldfish for 4 years (reproduced like crazy - and I kept a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bunch!) until they met with a huge unfortunate accident (read human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  error) and have had koi for the past 3.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a 55 gallon aquarium and use 2 whisper filters that I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  like to replace with something more efficient - and hopefully less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  maintenance.  Keep in mind this tank is maxed out - but with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filters, 2 air pumps and pretty good maintenance - everyone seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy and healthy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My question is:  Is there much difference between the commercially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  available external filters?  Should I double the capacity as I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with the whisper filters?  (go more than the recommended 55 gal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  output?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I searched the archives, but really haven't found this addressed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Sure wish yahoo would improve the ability to search more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  page at a time, lol.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for any input.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kathy




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4973 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Plants finally arrived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Heh, yes this guy, "Vic", bent over backwards to make sure everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  was right. And his plants are good quality. I would really like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  visit his plant nursery.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've bought plants from three different online dealers now, and I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  been satisfied both times (the third is still to be received). In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fact my opinion is that you do very good buying plants on line, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have many plant choices, the prices are good, you're probably buying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  online from the same kinda place that the LPS buys from, and as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  plus the online place usually throws in an extra plant or two as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  freebie, and the shipping charges that you pay are on the same level
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as the sales tax that you would pay locally, so you come out ahead on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  most fronts. The only negative that I came across is that you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to wait maybe a week for your plants to be shipped.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think I'll try buying fish online next. I've been searching locally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for Black Anglefish and have come up with nothing in my area. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a few websites bookmarked, like House of Angles for instance, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  haven't deceided on any one in particular yet. Any suggestions for an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  online fish breeder that you've delt with?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I remember him before he was famous for his fair business
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  practices. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have never bought from him, but if I ever buy plants through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mail, he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > will be the guy I'll call! Plus he has a great web site with lots
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > information about plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > recommend this setup for new or inexperienced fish keepers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The replacement plants arrived today, spending much less time in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > mail than last time and so looking so much better when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  arrived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Now I know what foxtail is really supposed to look like, rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that digested letuce that showed up last time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I really have to give the guy at AquariumGarden.com high kudos for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > his response to poor mail: He did right by me, replacing everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > from the previous order and didn't even charge me the extra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  shipping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Some very nice plants too, the dwarf swords have a florescence on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > them, the laceleaf is mongo! Definately check this guy out if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > looking for aquarium or pond plants. His stuff is a bit more that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cheapest but the quality of his plants is superior to the cheaper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > place so it makes up the difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4974 From: bryants4god Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just ordered some of those aqua clear filters from www.bigalsonline.com  they are practically giving them away.  1/3 the price of my lfs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Walter Cain [mailto:wjcoldman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would recommend you use the largest Aqua Clear Filter, it's used to be called the 500 but the have changed the names. Your LFS should known what I am talking about. This is my choice if you want a hang on the back filter. If you want a filter that sets under or along side the aquarium then I would choose the largest Fluval (404) it is also an excellent filter. I currently use both of these filters on my salt water and my plant tank. I hope this has helped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Walter

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  k8sl8 <k8sl8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had a pond for 7 years and bring my fish inside to winter.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  had goldfish for 4 years (reproduced like crazy - and I kept a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bunch!) until they met with a huge unfortunate accident (read human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  error) and have had koi for the past 3.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a 55 gallon aquarium and use 2 whisper filters that I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  like to replace with something more efficient - and hopefully less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  maintenance.  Keep in mind this tank is maxed out - but with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filters, 2 air pumps and pretty good maintenance - everyone seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy and healthy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My question is:  Is there much difference between the commercially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  available external filters?  Should I double the capacity as I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with the whisper filters?  (go more than the recommended 55 gal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  output?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I searched the archives, but really haven't found this addressed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Sure wish yahoo would improve the ability to search more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  page at a time, lol.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for any input.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kathy




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4975 From: paul helms Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  well if school just started and the tank was set less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  than a month ago, that is the problem. if the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  has not been cycled fully, add live bacteria to it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and it should clear within a few days. if it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  established, meaning runnign for several months, test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the water and tell us the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Darcy Kane <kane@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > My name is Darcy and I teach a wonderful class of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > happy Kindergarteners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In our classroom we have a 55 gallon aquarium which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > houses one small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > freshwater small-mouthed bass. Nemo, I mean what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > else would Kindy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > students name their fish, is about 5 inches long and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > happily dines on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > diet of brine shrimp which I carefully feed him to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > make sure he isn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > overfed. The tank has a stone bottom and two chunks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of rose quarts as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > well as a few plastic plants. I use an aerator and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > large filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hangs on the side of the tank. Sounds wonderful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > doesn't it? Well there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is trouble in paradise. My tank is cloudy and no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > matter how often I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > change the water I don't seem able to keep it clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The teacher across
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the hall has a tank (empty right now) that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > crystal clear, and even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the tank with the two gigantic goldfish is clearer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > than mine. HELP!! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hate a cloudy tank, what am I doing wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Darcy and Nemo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4976 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't mean to derail your discussion, but I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  understand what you mean by "more efficient" the way you used the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  term? I also have a 50 gal tank, with a whisper 60 that came with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the setup when I bought it on ebay, which I assume is the filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you have two of, and the only thing that I don't like about it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  high water flow rate and the low tolerance of sucked up gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  particles that it has.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But it is both an efficient and complete filter. I have since added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the aftermarket bio foam pad insert to the regular filter pack so it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a complete filter, with mech+chem+bio. The nice thing about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter bags is that you can add stuff to them. I add zeolite rocks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the filter bags since my tank is still new, something that might also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  be important for high population tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for cleaning, they even sell complete drop-in bags in the LPS,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  each month pull the old one out, drop the new one in, what could be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  easier? Cleaning more often than once a month is probably wasteful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Personally I believe that filters are overrated as a means of keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water clean. Nothing else but regular water changes really does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that. I'm sure there are better filters than the whisper, but as far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as filters go, unl;ess I'm, missing something, whispers seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pretty good. As external filters go the only thing that's really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  different out there from the basic filter box design is the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  type, which is not really all that different once you have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  biological element in the box.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "k8sl8"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <k8sl8@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have had a pond for 7 years and bring my fish inside to winter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > had goldfish for 4 years (reproduced like crazy - and I kept a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bunch!) until they met with a huge unfortunate accident (read human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > error) and have had koi for the past 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have a 55 gallon aquarium and use 2 whisper filters that I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > like to replace with something more efficient - and hopefully less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > maintenance. Keep in mind this tank is maxed out - but with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters, 2 air pumps and pretty good maintenance - everyone seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > happy and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > My question is: Is there much difference between the commercially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > available external filters? Should I double the capacity as I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > with the whisper filters? (go more than the recommended 55 gal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > output?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I searched the archives, but really haven't found this addressed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (Sure wish yahoo would improve the ability to search more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > page at a time, lol.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for any input.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Kathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4977 From: paul helms Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yes you do! add live bacteria and do small frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have to much amonia and nitrites! I have to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish will die right!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "Patrick, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > AmericanFishGuy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Don't use a gravel vacuum until things are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > under control. A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of the good bacteria that you need is in the mulm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > basically what you suck up in the gravel vacuum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Get out too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > and it will cause a major set back in the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cycle. Same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > thing for the filter. If you mean the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cartrdige, just was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > out in a small amount of tank water and keep using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it. Are you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > mixing up nitrAte and nitrIte? Remember, nitrItes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are dangerous at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > levels under 1, nitrAtes are safe at levels over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 20.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Well I tested last night and my Amonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrate are up again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > adding till I get it under control! First
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tonight I am doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > though gravel vac. I have 1/4" aquarium pebbles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > on top of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > layer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > standard gravel. I think I am going to mix it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > gravel/stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > bit. Then Wed I am going to change the Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > bacteria sponge. Sound like A GOOD PLAN??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4978 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter box bio filtering?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as I can tell all these external hangon boxes are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  same thing with a different brand name on them, with one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  exceptions: One is the possible enhancement from the Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if it in fact is really any better than a sponge and the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium Systems System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (which does not seem to be around any more). Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  any difference between different hang-on-the-back boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to have to survive on that slim a difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone have any insight into hangon filters that I'm overlooking?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4979 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Would you recommend adding zeolite rocks to the filter to reduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ammonia?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > yes you do! add live bacteria and do small frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- shortlid <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have to much amonia and nitrites! I have to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > fish will die right!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4980 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: buying fish online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've bought fish from http://www.aquariumfish.net/index.html (I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  believe they sell angels though) and http://www.liveaquaria.com/ I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with both and had no problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Other site I've looked at but not shopped from are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://store.yahoo.com/fish2u/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.thatpetplace.com/LiveFish/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.aquariumstuffers.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You could also check http://www.aquabid.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This link has a list of online retailers and reviews which you may find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  helpful: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/retailer_display.php?CatID=2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A big problem/complaint that people have with buying fish online is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cost...fish are often less expensive, but many sites have minimum purchase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amounts and the cost of shipping is usually high.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: <radzewicz@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think I'll try buying fish online next. I've been searching locally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for Black Anglefish and have come up with nothing in my area. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a few websites bookmarked, like House of Angles for instance, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  haven't deceided on any one in particular yet. Any suggestions for an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  online fish breeder that you've delt with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4981 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm researching fish for a few tanks of mine and would like to get some information please :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  halfbeaks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is the addition of salt to their tank water absolutely necessary or can they be kept in FW?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Would it be possible to keep them with small gouramis?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can they be kept in pairs or being livebearers is 1M/2F better, and are they sexed like other livebearers (gonopodium)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  small cichlids:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I currently have an angel (non-agressive), black phantom tetras, pearl gouramis, and a pair of keyholes (young, unsure of sex). My options are rainbows, checkerboards, or apistogrammas...any opinions on these fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If I got with apistos, are there any that you'd particularly recommend or avoid for this tank? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  badis:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok in non-agressive community tanks or not?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best kept singly, pairs, groups?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  How are they sexed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4982 From: Witchywmn42@aol.com Date: 9/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 9/12/2004 9:20:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to hear comments on using driftwood.  It can be SO beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  do NOT want to harm my fishies! 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb ... I have a piece of African Driftwood in my 15 gallon tank. It offers my fish a great hidey spot, and looks lovely. My adult red wag platie likes to hang out underneath it and rest.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Driftwood will not harm your fish. BUT before adding it to your tank, you have GOT to soak it a lot so that the tannins in the wood will not leach out of the wood and into your water, which could cause yellowish discoloration of the water and some foaming, and might fudge with your pH level as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here is how I prepared my driftwood. I've heard this method is quicker than just soaking the driftwood. I got a big pot and put the driftwood into it. Basically all you need is a pot big enough to hold the driftwood and some water. Fill with water, then put on the stove to boil. Boil for 30 minutes or so. Then drain the water out. You'll notice the water you pour out will not be clear. You can boil the driftwood several times. (I boiled my driftwood five or six times) Change the water each time you do this. Then, I soaked the driftwood in some de-chlorinated water for about a week, changing the water out after two days. When the water you change out is completely clear, your driftwood is ready to add to your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ~Lair of the Anime Witches~ http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4983 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the african drift wood is less likely to disturb your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tank. it leeches less yellow color into the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  does not break down as easy as the south american
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  stuff, but it is more expensive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Witchywmn42@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In a message dated 9/12/2004 9:20:18 AM Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > do NOT want to harm my fishies!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb ... I have a piece of African Driftwood in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 15 gallon tank. It offers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > my fish a great hidey spot, and looks lovely. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > adult red wag platie likes to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hang out underneath it and rest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Driftwood will not harm your fish. BUT before adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it to your tank, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have GOT to soak it a lot so that the tannins in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wood will not leach out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the wood and into your water, which could cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > yellowish discoloration of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water and some foaming, and might fudge with your pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > level as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Here is how I prepared my driftwood. I've heard this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > method is quicker than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > just soaking the driftwood. I got a big pot and put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the driftwood into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Basically all you need is a pot big enough to hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the driftwood and some water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Fill with water, then put on the stove to boil. Boil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > for 30 minutes or so. Then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > drain the water out. You'll notice the water you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > pour out will not be clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > You can boil the driftwood several times. (I boiled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > my driftwood five or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > times) Change the water each time you do this. Then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I soaked the driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > some de-chlorinated water for about a week, changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the water out after two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > days. When the water you change out is completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > clear, your driftwood is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ready to add to your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > my LiveJournal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4984 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the biowheel was designed to replace the undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bases, but is not as effective as the ug filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  does not get clogged by the roots of plants either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  some may think it works as well, but look at the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that is provided for biological filtration. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  your tank. if you want plants, use the biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter, it is pretty good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As far as I can tell all these external hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > same thing with a different brand name on them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > if it in fact is really any better than a sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > any difference between different hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4985 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the ug filter is much more efficient, as it simulates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  s=the bottom of a lake or river bed, where the mulm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  or bacteria resides. the efficiency is teh amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amonia that the bacteria is able to consume. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  set up the tank properly,with excellent filtration,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water changes are not needed. i have had a 110
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallon reef tank running successfully for more than 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  years, with zero losses, and i only add water to top
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it off. maybe once every 6 months i do a 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water change, but this is because i have proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filtration, and an established biology. (and no the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tank is not lightly stocked). i also have fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tanks, and the same principles apply.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I don't mean to derail your discussion, but I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > understand what you mean by "more efficient" the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > you used the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > term? I also have a 50 gal tank, with a whisper 60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that came with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the setup when I bought it on ebay, which I assume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is the filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > you have two of, and the only thing that I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > like about it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > high water flow rate and the low tolerance of sucked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > up gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > particles that it has.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > But it is both an efficient and complete filter. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have since added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the aftermarket bio foam pad insert to the regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter pack so it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is a complete filter, with mech+chem+bio. The nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > thing about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter bags is that you can add stuff to them. I add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > zeolite rocks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the filter bags since my tank is still new,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > something that might also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be important for high population tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for cleaning, they even sell complete drop-in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bags in the LPS,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > each month pull the old one out, drop the new one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in, what could be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > easier? Cleaning more often than once a month is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > probably wasteful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Personally I believe that filters are overrated as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > means of keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water clean. Nothing else but regular water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > really does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that. I'm sure there are better filters than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > whisper, but as far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > as filters go, unl;ess I'm, missing something,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > whispers seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > pretty good. As external filters go the only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that's really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > different out there from the basic filter box design
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > type, which is not really all that different once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > you have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > biological element in the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "k8sl8"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <k8sl8@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have had a pond for 7 years and bring my fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > inside to winter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > had goldfish for 4 years (reproduced like crazy -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and I kept a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bunch!) until they met with a huge unfortunate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > accident (read human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > error) and have had koi for the past 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have a 55 gallon aquarium and use 2 whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters that I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > like to replace with something more efficient -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and hopefully less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > maintenance. Keep in mind this tank is maxed out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > - but with 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filters, 2 air pumps and pretty good maintenance -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > everyone seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > happy and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > My question is: Is there much difference between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the commercially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > available external filters? Should I double the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > capacity as I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > with the whisper filters? (go more than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > recommended 55 gal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > output?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I searched the archives, but really haven't found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > this addressed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > (Sure wish yahoo would improve the ability to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > search more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > page at a time, lol.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks for any input.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Kathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4986 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: buying fish online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you, some very good links there. I have actually checked at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  most of the credible anglefish breeders listed at some of these links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and found that blacks from desirable sources are out of stock all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  over at the moment. Liveaquaria is one of the few places that do have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Blacks, but I question their source and genetics and they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  offer DD's, so I hesitate to order.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And ideally I'ld like to find someplace near to where I live in Fl so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that I have some confidence that their water and mine are similiar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The aquabid site is facinating.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I've bought fish from http://www.aquariumfish.net/index.html (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > believe they sell angels though) and http://www.liveaquaria.com/ I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > happy with both and had no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Other site I've looked at but not shopped from are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://store.yahoo.com/fish2u/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.thatpetplace.com/LiveFish/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.aquariumstuffers.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > You could also check http://www.aquabid.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > This link has a list of online retailers and reviews which you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > helpful: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/retailer_display.php?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  CatID=2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > A big problem/complaint that people have with buying fish online is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cost...fish are often less expensive, but many sites have minimum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  purchase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > amounts and the cost of shipping is usually high.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: <radzewicz@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I think I'll try buying fish online next. I've been searching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  locally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > for Black Anglefish and have come up with nothing in my area. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a few websites bookmarked, like House of Angles for instance, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > haven't deceided on any one in particular yet. Any suggestions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > online fish breeder that you've delt with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4987 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So the biowheel provides biological filtering by providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tucked into the externally hung filter box in the flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter water?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've observed the operation of these biowheel filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  because at first I was skeptical of any advantage they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  be some benefit to the wheel that other biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  achieve.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  passes through the wheel; and it also exposes itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  aspect to biological filtering that submerged sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  achieve?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  another biological aspect of the filter, though I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  know what it might be. Do additional species of bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  about the biowheel filter that describes an effect of this action?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the biowheel was designed to replace the undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bases, but is not as effective as the ug filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > does not get clogged by the roots of plants either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > some may think it works as well, but look at the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that is provided for biological filtration. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > your tank. if you want plants, use the biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > As far as I can tell all these external hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > same thing with a different brand name on them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > if it in fact is really any better than a sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > any difference between different hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4988 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: new member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have bettas with platies, mollies, neons and other tetras, Tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barbs, guppies, angelfish, gouramis, red tip sharks, cories, frogs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  shrimp, and plecos with no problem at all, except for one particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  molly that he took a dislike to...LOL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > put some other fish in with them but are not sure what i can i've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > found a lot of differing "advice" from web sites-does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have "hands on" wisdom to share with me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a new fish fan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > andy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4989 From: Andy Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: new member


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have bettas with platies, mollies, neons and other tetras, Tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barbs, guppies, angelfish, gouramis, red tip sharks, cories, frogs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  shrimp, and plecos with no problem at all, except for one particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  molly that he took a dislike to...LOL. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > put some other fish in with them but are not sure what i can i've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > found a lot of differing "advice" from web sites-does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have  "hands on" wisdom to share with me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >                                    a new fish fan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >                                          andy




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thank you

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Andrea


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4990 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The biowheel is realy no different to any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  other bio filter in the way it filters, its main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  advantage is that it offers a large surface area for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the bacteria to colonize in a comparatively small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  space, you need to keep a close eye on them as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  can be prone to clog and stop revolving this very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  drastically reduces there efficiency, I much prefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the wet and dry type that uses bioballs they are just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as efficient and can be located totally within the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tank. Your question 'how does that differ', realy not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  very much main dif. is far less working area and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  usualy less oxygen. for more info try a google search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for - aquarium biowheel filtration -.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be some benefit to the wheel that other biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > aspect to biological filtering that submerged sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > another biological aspect of the filter, though I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > about the biowheel filter that describes an effect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > some may think it works as well, but look at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > that is provided for biological filtration. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > your tank. if you want plants, use the biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > As far as I can tell all these external hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > same thing with a different brand name on them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > if it in fact is really any better than a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ________________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4991 From: shortlid Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can I get these at Petsmart and just put it in with the charcoal??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Would you recommend adding zeolite rocks to the filter to reduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ammonia?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > yes you do! add live bacteria and do small frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- shortlid <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > I have to much amonia and nitrites! I have to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > fish will die right!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4992 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Digest Number 391 - DRIFTWOOD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 9/15/04 10:22:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here is how I prepared my driftwood. I've heard this method is quicker than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  just soaking the driftwood. I got a big pot and put the driftwood into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Basically all you need is a pot big enough to hold the driftwood and some water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fill with water, then put on the stove to boil. Boil for 30 minutes or so. Then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  drain the water out. You'll notice the water you pour out will not be clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can boil the driftwood several times. (I boiled my driftwood five or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  times) Change the water each time you do this. Then, I soaked the driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  some de-chlorinated water for about a week, changing the water out after two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  days. When the water you change out is completely clear, your driftwood is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ready to add to your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ===========================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have also found it a good idea to remove any soft material from the driftwood.  Anything that is soft will deteriorate fairly rapidly and mess up your water.  I never put driftwood in any of my tanks unless it is solid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4993 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: new member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never had luck keeping male bettas in community tanks....they either
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chased & nipped the other fish or vice-versa. I'd stay away from anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with long, flowing fins. Guppies are a no, as well as other labyrith fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (gouramis, etc).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You could get a school of cories for the bottom, or a group of kuhli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  loaches. For the middle maybe a school of tetras, harlequin rasboras, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  non-nippy barb. African dwarf frogs are also good betta companions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just keep a close eye on the tanks after you have the fish added in case any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  agression starts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Theresa




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "dragonsangel79" <dragonsangel79@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hi i'm andrea but call me andy, the one who inheirited the fish. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > had/still have two bettas blue and "blue too"(who is red-my twoyear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > old named him) then we are fish sitting another betta also named
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > blue. then we got the tank and 16 fish i'll list them all later(i'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > still learning what name goes to who). i'm getting a bigger tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the 16 and will be moving my bettas up from sharing a ten(with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > divider)gallon to each having their own ten gallon. i would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > put some other fish in with them but are not sure what i can i've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > found a lot of differing "advice" from web sites-does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have "hands on" wisdom to share with me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4994 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's exactly what I did. I paid about $3 for a jug of zeolite at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Petsmart after I read that they reduce ammonia. I don't know if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  actually work or how well or how much but that didn't stop me from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  putting them in the filter bag with the charcoal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also saw several scrubber-like pads of various materials in a LPS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that could be cut to size and claimed to remove nitrites, nitrates,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and ammonia, depending on the pad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Can I get these at Petsmart and just put it in with the charcoal??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Would you recommend adding zeolite rocks to the filter to reduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ammonia?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > yes you do! add live bacteria and do small frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- shortlid <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > I have to much amonia and nitrites! I have to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > fish will die right!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4995 From: Andy Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: new member


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never had luck keeping male bettas in community tanks....they either
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chased & nipped the other fish or vice-versa. I'd stay away from anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with long, flowing fins. Guppies are a no, as well as other labyrith fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (gouramis, etc).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You could get a school of cories for the bottom, or a group of kuhli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  loaches. For the middle maybe a school of tetras, harlequin rasboras, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  non-nippy barb. African dwarf frogs are also good betta companions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just keep a close eye on the tanks after you have the fish added in case any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  agression starts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Theresa



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thank you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  what do the frogs need to keep them happy in the tank. i really wasn't thinking about the frogs -i'm afraid they would get out. but i know my girls would enjoy them. i'll be moving my tanks to the hallway so i can see them from everywere but my bedroom and bathroom-will be keeping a very close eye on them!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Andrea


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4996 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the replies regarding driftwood. Mine was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  purchased on ebay, and is from the good ol' USA. No fancy wood, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  great shape! It's light weight though, and from what I'm reading,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it needs to be fastened to a piece of slate for weight. I looked at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the pieces at a local pet store, and the wood was screwed to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  slate. I'm assuming that metal in a tank is okay, after seeing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  this. Are there any type screws that are safest? Stainless? Brass?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks again for this wonderful forum!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the african drift wood is less likely to disturb your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tank. it leeches less yellow color into the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > does not break down as easy as the south american
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stuff, but it is more expensive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- Witchywmn42@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > In a message dated 9/12/2004 9:20:18 AM Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Also, I'd love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > to hear comments on using driftwood. It can be SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > beautiful, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > do NOT want to harm my fishies!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Barb ... I have a piece of African Driftwood in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 15 gallon tank. It offers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > my fish a great hidey spot, and looks lovely. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > adult red wag platie likes to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > hang out underneath it and rest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Driftwood will not harm your fish. BUT before adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > it to your tank, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > have GOT to soak it a lot so that the tannins in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > wood will not leach out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the wood and into your water, which could cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > yellowish discoloration of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > water and some foaming, and might fudge with your pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > level as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Here is how I prepared my driftwood. I've heard this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > method is quicker than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > just soaking the driftwood. I got a big pot and put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the driftwood into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Basically all you need is a pot big enough to hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the driftwood and some water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Fill with water, then put on the stove to boil. Boil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > for 30 minutes or so. Then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > drain the water out. You'll notice the water you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > pour out will not be clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > You can boil the driftwood several times. (I boiled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > my driftwood five or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > times) Change the water each time you do this. Then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I soaked the driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > some de-chlorinated water for about a week, changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the water out after two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > days. When the water you change out is completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > clear, your driftwood is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ready to add to your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > CelticParents http://www.celticparents.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ~Lair of the Anime Witches~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.celticparents.com/anime/index2.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > my LiveJournal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/celticmommy/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4997 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Long siphon tube...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I finally located a 24" rigid tube for siphoning, so I can reach the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bottom of my aquariums and vacuum the bottom properly. Now, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  concerned that I might suck up my ghost shrimp, since they are SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hard to see! Has anyone had a problem with this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4998 From: questnjurny Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: new member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In my own experience...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a male betta in with 5 white clouds, 5 tetras, 2 bolivian rams,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3 julii cories, one pictus cat, one male platy. Everyone gets along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  great, I have noticed no nipped betta fins, infact they have improved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  since I got him. In another tank I have 3 female platies, one male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  platies and a male mollie. Everyone gets along great in that tank too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just my experience! My tanks are pretty placid, I am not sure if I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  lucky or just have the right combos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: "dragonsangel79" <dragonsangel79@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > hi i'm andrea but call me andy, the one who inheirited the fish. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > had/still have two bettas blue and "blue too"(who is red-my twoyear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > old named him) then we are fish sitting another betta also named
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > blue. then we got the tank and 16 fish i'll list them all later(i'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > still learning what name goes to who). i'm getting a bigger tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the 16 and will be moving my bettas up from sharing a ten(with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > divider)gallon to each having their own ten gallon. i would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > put some other fish in with them but are not sure what i can i've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > found a lot of differing "advice" from web sites-does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > have "hands on" wisdom to share with me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 4999 From: questnjurny Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Platy colours
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi everyone,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a tank with 3 female orange platies, one male I think sunset is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  what his colour is called and a male sailfin speckled mollie. I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  now that mollies like slightly brackish water adn platies don't, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  this mollie seems ot be doing okay. Anyways, not surprisingly, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  platies are breeding like bunnies, but I am getting some odd colours.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some are orange, some are sunset (lighter with dark oranged fins,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  correct me if the colour is something different) but I am getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  about a third that are coming out with dark markings. They are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fairly small, about a month old, but it appears that the heads are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  going to stay light adn the bodies are heavily black spotted. with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the first batch I figured they could be mollie babies, but my female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  has since died and i have more with the same markings. As well, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  noticed one of the newest kids has a black tail, which I know can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  happen, but I have no black tailed platies. So, is my male mollie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cross-breeding with my platies? Or is there dark coloured platies out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  there that I have never seen that could be getting carried through a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  recessive gene to my babies? Also, the older group all seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  females, can't tell on the younger ones yet, they are still hiding in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the java moss most of the time. Is this pH related, or jsut some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fluke? Not that I really mind, I would rather have lots of females so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can put a school in a couple other tanks without getting more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  babies....I have found that I can't have more than one male per tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as one suffers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Any insight to my weird colours would be great!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5000 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is, it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  they are folded in on themselves so that they have a surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > So the biowheel provides biological filtering by providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tucked into the externally hung filter box in the flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I've observed the operation of these biowheel filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > because at first I was skeptical of any advantage they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be some benefit to the wheel that other biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > aspect to biological filtering that submerged sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > another biological aspect of the filter, though I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > know what it might be. Do additional species of bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > about the biowheel filter that describes an effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the biowheel was designed to replace the undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > some may think it works as well, but look at the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > that is provided for biological filtration.  it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > your tank.  if you want plants, use the biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > As far as I can tell all these external hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > same thing with a different brand name on them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > if it in fact is really any better than a sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > any difference between different hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5001 From: Seti Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Any advice on automatic feeders?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was wondering if anyone has used automatic feeders. I'm going on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  month-long vacation over Christmas, and need to find a reliable way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  feed the fish while I'm gone. I'm planning to have a friend drop by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  every 4-5 days to check on everything, but I was thinking of getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the automatic feeder for in-between. Are these a good idea, do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  work? Can anyone recommend a specific kind to get? By the time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  leave, I'm planning to have my new 60-gal set up and running (got a 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gal currently), but keep it stocked at a 30-gal level 'til I get back.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Any feedback will be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ~~Seti
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5002 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > filter in a planted aquarium.� it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > that is provided for biological filtration.� it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > your tank.� if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5003 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Long siphon tube...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  try cutting an old net and attching it to the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the hose so that nothing is expelled out of the end,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and check it when you are finished. if you put it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the end in your tank, your vacuum will not move enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of the gravel surface, but on the out take you should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I finally located a 24" rigid tube for siphoning, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I can reach the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bottom of my aquariums and vacuum the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > properly. Now, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > concerned that I might suck up my ghost shrimp,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > since they are SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hard to see! Has anyone had a problem with this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5004 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  released from under plates. no dead spots, etc. i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5005 From: dragonsangel79 Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: new member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "questnjurny"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <questnjurny@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In my own experience...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have a male betta in with 5 white clouds, 5 tetras, 2 bolivian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  rams,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 3 julii cories, one pictus cat, one male platy. Everyone gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > great, I have noticed no nipped betta fins, infact they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  improved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > since I got him. In another tank I have 3 female platies, one male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > platies and a male mollie. Everyone gets along great in that tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Just my experience! My tanks are pretty placid, I am not sure if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lucky or just have the right combos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >thanks i think tetras sound good and to show my newness to fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  what is a pictus cat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5006 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen rich environment for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand bed or other specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  biological filters. Even though it may have considerably smaller surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel substrate but none of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  later ones provide oxygen rich environment. Since the beneficial bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there is no shortage of the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish "Oxygen".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  all depends on what one wants to do. One setup for someone may do wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for him and create havoc for the other. This is true even with bio-wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have heard some people having continuous bacterial bloom problems but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  don’t at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc. i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> that is provided for biological filtration.  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5007 From: Darcy Kane Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > well if school just started and the tank was set less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > than a month ago, that is the problem. if the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > has not been cycled fully, add live bacteria to it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and it should clear within a few days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The tank was just set up so it must be a bacteria thing. Where and what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  is the bacteria I would add? Granted there is plenty of dirt in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  kindergarten classroom but none I think is right for the fish tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Darcy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5008 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Apple Snails!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can anyone tell us about how long after reproduction of a male and female apple snail should she lay the eggs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5009 From: shortlid Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I bought some stuff you add to the Whisper filter called Amoni-Carb.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It has actiavted charcoal and a special polymer that traps Ammoina?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will give it a try when I rinse out the Whisper filter with tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water tonight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > That's exactly what I did. I paid about $3 for a jug of zeolite at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Petsmart after I read that they reduce ammonia. I don't know if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > actually work or how well or how much but that didn't stop me from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > putting them in the filter bag with the charcoal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I also saw several scrubber-like pads of various materials in a LPS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that could be cut to size and claimed to remove nitrites, nitrates,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and ammonia, depending on the pad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Can I get these at Petsmart and just put it in with the charcoal??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Would you recommend adding zeolite rocks to the filter to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  reduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ammonia?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > yes you do! add live bacteria and do small frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > --- shortlid <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > > I have to much amonia and nitrites! I have to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > > something or my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > > fish will die right!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5010 From: Gary Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Any advice on automatic feeders?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good planning on your part to get an automatic feeder several months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  before you leave to give it a good test before you depend on it. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  one that I bought several years ago from Big Al Online, and I use it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  twice every day to keep my big tank fed. I have had no problems with it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  except that large flakes do not fall through the chute very well and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  extra small flakes fall too easily. I must break them up into small and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  medium pieces when I load it, about once a month. I think mine is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  called a NutraMatic and I wouldn't be without it, even when I am home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary Loheide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Las Vegas, Nevada


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Seti wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I was wondering if anyone has used automatic feeders. I'm going on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > month-long vacation over Christmas, and need to find a reliable way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > feed the fish while I'm gone. I'm planning to have a friend drop by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > every 4-5 days to check on everything, but I was thinking of getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the automatic feeder for in-between. Are these a good idea, do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > work? Can anyone recommend a specific kind to get? By the time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > leave, I'm planning to have my new 60-gal set up and running (got a 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > gal currently), but keep it stocked at a 30-gal level 'til I get back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ~~Seti
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5011 From: bryants4god Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Apple Snails!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  usually it's within a week or so but a female can hold sperm up to 6 months if she chooses too.  Make sure have some air space above the water line for her to lay on.  You might want to check out www.applesnail.net for more information.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 2:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can anyone tell us about how long after reproduction of a male and female apple snail should she lay the eggs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5012 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: What fish can I add to my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think that would be a terrible idea.  Water changes are the only thing you should do to help the natural cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I bought some stuff you add to the Whisper filter called Amoni-Carb. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It has actiavted charcoal and a special polymer that traps Ammoina? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I will give it a try when I rinse out the Whisper filter with tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water tonight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5013 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Long siphon tube...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Now that is probably the best idea I've heard of in a while, putting the net on the out flowing end.  Great idea! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      try cutting an old net and attching it to the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the hose so that nothing is expelled out of the end,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and check it when you are finished.  if you put it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the end in your tank, your vacuum will not move enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of the gravel surface, but on the out take you should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5014 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Biospira or fritz zyme would be the only live bacteria products that I know of that would work in a few days.  Fritz is easier to find.  This is a nitrogen cycle issue.  Click below to learn about that. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5015 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Long siphon tube...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree...a wonderful idea!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That way, if I happen to suck up one of the little guys, all he does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is get to go for a ride to the other end of the tube!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks SOOOO much!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Now that is probably the best idea I've heard of in a while,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        putting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > net on the out flowing end. Great idea!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > try cutting an old net and attching it to the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the hose so that nothing is expelled out of the end,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and check it when you are finished. if you put it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the end in your tank, your vacuum will not move enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of the gravel surface, but on the out take you should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5016 From: paul helms Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can add stress zyme (my personal choice), fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        zyme, or bio spira. all should be available. i like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the stress zyme, you just add one dose every 2-3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when theer are fish in the tank, and they should make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it. it is completely non-harmful, only helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Darcy Kane <kane@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > well if school just started and the tank was set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > than a month ago, that is the problem. if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > has not been cycled fully, add live bacteria to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and it should clear within a few days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The tank was just set up so it must be a bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thing. Where and what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is the bacteria I would add? Granted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plenty of dirt in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kindergarten classroom but none I think is right for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Darcy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5017 From: Julie Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the info on the crawdad. My husband got him at the lfs on a since we had a mostly empty 10 gallon to put him in.  He nips at any of the guppies that aren't fast enough or smart enough to stay out of his way, but he has only gotten one so far.  Nicked a couple of fins, though.  And is forever trying to get out.  We have lowered the water level when we saw he could just about reach the hole where the filter sits.  He is a beautiful brilliant blue and its kind of fun to watch him.  I wouldn't have gotten him for myself.  I much prefer my angels and loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5018 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In most cases the total surface are of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        biowheel will a lot more than double that of an under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel filter, also much more affective and does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        accumulate smelly mush like an under gravel filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Remember to the biowheel is two sided.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they are folded in on themselves so that they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5019 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Digest Number 392 - DRIFTWOOD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 9/15/04 8:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are there any type screws that are safest?  Stainless?  Brass?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I always use brass, but that's because that's what I have.  I would imagine either would work as long as the stainless is good stuff.  There's good and cheap stainless steel.  If the stainless screws are attracted to a magnet, they're cheapies.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5020 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just remembered I still had an old biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        meters) remember double sided how does that compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they are folded in on themselves so that they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5021 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             My nose is'nt the best, but the smell I noticed from the material in the under-gravel filter was'nt dis-similar to the smell of mud in river-beds. It seemed earthy to me. I've never seen statistics  of measurement of the differences between bio-wheels and the gravel-surfaces and plates, and aquarium-bottoms relative to an undergravel filter, but, if I were a betting man, I think I'd start learning the math to deduce the surface area, including porosity of gravel, plates and the glass/acrylic area under the filter-plates. I have a strong sense that the area of a UGF (mine was for a 75 gallon aquarium, and I had 3 to 5 inches of gravel and a polyester mat on the plate, under the gravel, powered by four power-heads) is much greater than a bio-wheel. I used it possibly because the little 'feeder-goldfish', that I felt sorry for, and bought, grew too large for the original-aquarium, and since they were large, and consequently had larger natural discharges, it seemed to work-out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  JoeP 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In most cases the total surface are of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > biowheel will a lot more than double that of an under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel filter, also much more affective and does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > accumulate smelly mush like an under gravel filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Remember to the biowheel is two sided.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5022 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea made a good observation: While the UG has a lot more surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        area it doesn't "process" anywhere near the volume of water per hour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that the BW does. At best the flow through an UG is a tiny trickle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        due to the flow resistance of the gravel. Of course that small volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stays in contact with the bacteria that much longer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But that discussion is deviating from my curosity with the biowheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        viv a vis a plain bio-sponge placed in the filter box: Does the fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that it exposes the bacteria to fresh air during part of its cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        somehow aide in the culturing of a beneficial bacteria? I venture a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guess here and say that exposure to fresh air tilts the balance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacterial growth in favor of aerobic bacteria and tilts against
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anaerobic bacteria. Is this somehow a plus for biological filtering?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If aerobic baterica is more desirable than anaerobic bacteria then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the biowheel provides a real filtering advantage over the sponge (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        maybe over the UG filter also which heavily favors anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria), if not then it makes the wheel just another filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gimmick with no pratical value beyond what a biosponge would provide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > that is provided for biological filtration.  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5023 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is this really something to worry about?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential problem here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc. i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5024 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity of the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        long tubular column of slow moving water to exhaust the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are uniquely beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the biological filtering process.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand bed or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > biological filters. Even though it may have considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > later ones provide oxygen rich environment. Since the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there is no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup for someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for him and create havoc for the other. This is true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have heard some people having continuous bacterial bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc. i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> that is provided for biological filtration.  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5025 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Facinating. So there's roughly 100 square inches of surface area on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each side of the biowheel.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I just remembered I still had an old biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > meters) remember double sided how does that compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5026 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ............Try typing NITREX BOX, or NITREX BOX AQUARIUM in GOOGLE. It's used to cultivate anaerobic bacteria, which are used to change nitrate into nitrogen. You should find other sources there that relate to other products used to cultivate anaerobic bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity of the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > long tubular column of slow moving water to exhaust the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are uniquely beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mathur" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand bed or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > biological filters. Even though it may have considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment. Since the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there is no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup for someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > have heard some people having continuous bacterial bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc. i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> that is provided for biological filtration. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5027 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        .................Seems you'd have to contact the manufacturer   to find if they'd done a high-profile study of the minutia (spelling?). As to whether they, or someone else did a viable study, with all the geometry and biology, and atmospheric interface vs water interface, we'd be asking questions and believing one anothers allegations. I never trusted bio-wheels because they looked so flimsy, and thought they'd be a chore because my unproven sense said they'd be quirky, or get dirty and need replacement or something. Nothing rational, just a sense. I already had 4 powerheads powering 3 to 5 inches of gravel over polyester-fiber on a 75 gallon, 48 inch long filter-plate, and did'nt have problems because the filtration was inadequate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joe P


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea made a good observation: While the UG has a lot more surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > area it doesn't "process" anywhere near the volume of water per hour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that the BW does. At best the flow through an UG is a tiny trickle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > due to the flow resistance of the gravel. Of course that small volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stays in contact with the bacteria that much longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But that discussion is deviating from my curosity with the biowheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > viv a vis a plain bio-sponge placed in the filter box: Does the fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that it exposes the bacteria to fresh air during part of its cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > somehow aide in the culturing of a beneficial bacteria? I venture a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guess here and say that exposure to fresh air tilts the balance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacterial growth in favor of aerobic bacteria and tilts against
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anaerobic bacteria. Is this somehow a plus for biological filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If aerobic baterica is more desirable than anaerobic bacteria then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the biowheel provides a real filtering advantage over the sponge (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maybe over the UG filter also which heavily favors anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria), if not then it makes the wheel just another filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gimmick with no pratical value beyond what a biosponge would provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > another biological aspect of the filter, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > know what it might be. Do additional species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure? Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > that is provided for biological filtration. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > combination with the plants which are a natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5028 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Aerobic bacteria are the ones converting ammonia and nitrite, anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate, or that is how I understand it.  Anaerobic bacteria are the ones in liver rock in saltwater tanks that keep nitrates down to 0.  In freshwater tanks, nitrates isn't a big problem so I have never heard much about getting anaerobic bacteria to live.  I have heard that it can be bad for a freshwater tank to have anaerobic bacteria growing in dead zones of a ugf.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About the flow rate of a ugf being small, I don't think it is really that small, but the larger the tank the less it is compared to the size of the tank.  That is probably why many people use large power heads for large tanks with ugf's.  In my 1 gallon, I would bet the water passes through the ugf at a pretty good rate, maybe 3 times an hour or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5029 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and don't forget, most biowheel filters for larger tanks contain two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          very large wheels. that's a tremendous amount of surface area and it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a perfect medium for bacterial growth, unlike glass and stones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Sep 15, 2004, at 11:34 PM, radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Facinating. So there's roughly 100 square inches of surface area on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > each side of the biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >       I just remembered I still had an old biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >       It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > meters) remember double sided how does that compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5030 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ..............Overloading a freshwater aquarium with waste, whether or not you have plants will cause a nitrate buildup. Older freshwater tanks can have a nitrate overload. If I remember correctly, undesireable algal growth is sometimes caused by imbalance/excess nitrate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Aerobic bacteria are the ones converting ammonia and nitrite, anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate, or that is how I understand it. Anaerobic bacteria are the ones in liver rock in saltwater tanks that keep nitrates down to 0. In freshwater tanks, nitrates isn't a big problem so I have never heard much about getting anaerobic bacteria to live. I have heard that it can be bad for a freshwater tank to have anaerobic bacteria growing in dead zones of a ugf.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About the flow rate of a ugf being small, I don't think it is really that small, but the larger the tank the less it is compared to the size of the tank. That is probably why many people use large power heads for large tanks with ugf's. In my 1 gallon, I would bet the water passes through the ugf at a pretty good rate, maybe 3 times an hour or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5031 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So aerobic bacteria are more desirable in the FW aquarium than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anaerobic bacteria. That's a good bit of information, Patrick.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And it implies that the BW filter really does do someting over and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          above what the sponge filter or an UGF does since the exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          oxygen is a lot greater in the BWF.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Since the exposure to oxygen favors the development of aerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bacteria and since aerobic bacteria are more effective than anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bacteria at the important biological filtering in a FW aquarium, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          BWF is a more effective filter. QED?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well at least I'm past the point of consigning the BWF to the realm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of "gimmick" and am willing to admit the possibility that it actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          does perform a useful biological filtering function.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Aerobic bacteria are the ones converting ammonia and nitrite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria convert nitrate, or that is how I understand it. Anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria are the ones in liver rock in saltwater tanks that keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > down to 0. In freshwater tanks, nitrates isn't a big problem so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > never heard much about getting anaerobic bacteria to live. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          heard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that it can be bad for a freshwater tank to have anaerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in dead zones of a ugf.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About the flow rate of a ugf being small, I don't think it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that small, but the larger the tank the less it is compared to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          size of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank. That is probably why many people use large power heads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tanks with ugf's. In my 1 gallon, I would bet the water passes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ugf at a pretty good rate, maybe 3 times an hour or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos, 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5032 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Darcy, I would think that the most convenient source of live nitrifying bacteria would be from the tank you refer to with the two giant goldfish. Take some of that water and/or filter medium and just transfer it to your tank and filter. Both of those tanks (the bass' and the goldfish's) should have filters of some sort if they don't already. I would suggest taking some gravel from the Goldfish's tank, but it sounds like your tank has a bare bottom and you probably prefer to keep it that way for ease of maintenance. It might be a good idea to get an ammonia test kit and check the water over the next few weeks. The ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle generally takes about 4 to 6 weeks to fully cycle from the time its originally set up. If the ammonia appears to get too high, you'll have to make some partial (30% - 50%) water changes so as not to poison the bass. By the way, smallmouth bass prefer cooler water (with more oxygen) than largemouth bass; while it may be impossible to control the tank temperature in a heated classroom in the winter, you ought to supply moderate to heavy aeration (and keep the tank covered), especially if the temperature rises. LOL, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5033 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: New file uploaded to FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          group.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          File : /Chloramines are Toxic to Your Fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Uploaded by : tropicalfishman <massagetherapist@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Description : http://www.svas.info/chloramine.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/files/Chloramines%20are%20Toxic%20to%20Your%20Fish%21

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tropicalfishman <massagetherapist@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5034 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This threed seams to be causing quite a bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          confusion, here are a few facts that might help to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          clear the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Biowheels, wet & dry, under gravel, sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          all other forms of biological filters provide an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          environment for Aerobic Bacteria to colonize and allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the aquarium water to be passed over them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          One strain of Aerobic bacteria consume the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia present and turn it into Nitrite, then another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          strain of Aerobic bacteria consume the Nitrite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          turn it into Nitrate this is as far as our bio.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filters go, the Nitrates are dealt with by doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          frequent water changes with Nitrate free water, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          better still by having a nice planted tank, the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          will consume the Nitrate. NOTE - a lot of tap and well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water contains Nitrate among other non desirable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Anaerobic bacteria will consume Nitrate and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          give of a gas which escapes to the atmosphere, but for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this to occur you need to have a deep sand bed at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          least 6" to provide the anaerobic conditions in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lower layer for bacteria to exist. the sand bed must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          also be 'live' i.e. contain plenty of critters, worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and the like to stop the sand compacting by keeping it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in motion and allowing limited circulation so the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nitrate can reach the lower Anaerobic layer, this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not feasible in a fresh water tank due mainly to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lack of suitable critters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Deep sand beds are often used to control
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nitrates in salt water aquariums and work very well in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my experience, but I now of no one that has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          successful with this method in fresh water tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > long tubular column of slow moving water to exhaust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are uniquely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand bed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > biological filters. Even though it may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment. Since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > have heard some people having continuous bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5035 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi,again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I only quoted the diameter of the wheel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the length of the pleated material when opened out, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          was pointing out the amount of material on a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          dia. wheel. the surface area would be the width of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          material (length of the wheel ) by the extended length
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of material by two !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Facinating. So there's roughly 100 square inches of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > surface area on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > each side of the biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I just remembered I still had an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > meters) remember double sided how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5036 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Uh, ok, but why would you post all that and still not tell us the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          other important diminsion? <?>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi,again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I only quoted the diameter of the wheel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the length of the pleated material when opened out, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > was pointing out the amount of material on a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > dia. wheel. the surface area would be the width of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > material (length of the wheel ) by the extended length
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of material by two !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Facinating. So there's roughly 100 square inches of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > surface area on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > each side of the biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I just remembered I still had an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > meters) remember double sided how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > === message truncated ===
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5037 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I had heard of this NITREX BOX and looked into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it before, but came to the conclusion that it was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gimmick and stood little chance of working and even if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it did would prove to be pretty expensive to run apart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          from having to dig it in and out of the substrate on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regular basis to change the media so I admit to having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          no personal experience, but before making this post I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have spent some time researching it again in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anticipation of some one bringing it up, All I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is that I cannot find anybody that is not financially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          involved, with a good word for it, in fact a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people totally condemn it saying it caused utter havoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in there tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There is another method under this name, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          can't say product as it is a do it yourself project,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it entails along length of small bore pipe about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          twenty five feet or so in a coil,you feed the aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water into one end very very slowly then get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          denitrated water and gas out the other end. The theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          being that aerobic bacteria work in the inlet end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the pipe removing ammonia, nitrite and most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          oxygen while the outlet end becomes Anaerobic and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          removes the nitrate. While the theory is sound I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          see a lot of problems, very very little surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for the bacteria to colonise, it would need to be drip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fed to get a slow enough flow so you would realy need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to install it in a sump, usualy sumps are associated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with large tanks, I think it's impact on a large tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would be minimal. There are reports of a number of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people trying it, most said it did remove Nitrates but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          only in small amounts and that they didn't think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          worth the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          One day when I'm looking for something to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I might experiment to see if I can improve the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          volume/time scale that it appears to work at.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ............Try typing NITREX BOX, or NITREX BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > AQUARIUM in GOOGLE. It's used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria, which are used to change nitrate into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > nitrogen. You should find other sources there that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > relate to other products used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > long tubular column of slow moving water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exhaust the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > uniquely beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Mathur" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bed or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > biological filters. Even though it may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Since the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > have heard some people having continuous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacterial bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Re: External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >> --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>>>> that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filtration. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5038 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Bio wheels come in all sizes, that was just an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          illustration of the large amount of surface area that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a small diameter wheel can contain.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Uh, ok, but why would you post all that and still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not tell us the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > other important diminsion? <?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hi,again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I only quoted the diameter of the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the length of the pleated material when opened
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > out, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > was pointing out the amount of material on a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > dia. wheel. the surface area would be the width of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > material (length of the wheel ) by the extended
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > length
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > of material by two !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Facinating. So there's roughly 100 square inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > surface area on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > each side of the biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > I just remembered I still had an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > meters) remember double sided how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > another biological aspect of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > the biowheel because of this air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > about the biowheel filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > combination with the plants which are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5039 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Gentlemen: I have to agree with both of you. While nitrates are not normally harmful to fish in the freshwater aquarium environment, unless its really high, excess nitrates will most decidedly contribute towards an algae growth unless there is sufficient plant growth to take up these nutrients. In addition yes, anaerobic bacterial action can be quite harmful, at least in the freshwater tank, as in dead pockets of an UGF. The breaking down of waste material by bacteria in the absence of oxygen (rotting) produces hydrogen and methane gases, both poisonous to fish. On a larger freshwater scale, it is just that process that kills fish in an outdoor pond in the winter when its frozen over, without the benefit of a floating pond heater to create a small hole in the ice to let these accumulating gases escape. It is these gases that kill the fish and not a lack of oxygen. If biological filtration in the freshwater tank is the method of choice in keeping clean water, aerobic bacteria with the breakdown of waste in the presence of oxygen is always the preferred way to go; there of course are no noxious gases produced. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5040 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Digest Number 392 - DRIFTWOOD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          THANKS! If brass is working for you, then brass it is! Actually,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm delighted in that I tried the boiling routine that was suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          on this forum, and the first piece I've done is staying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bottom, so won't need slate....yea! Don't know about the others
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yet...time will tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ;~0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, DB1RDMAN@W...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In a message dated 9/15/04 8:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Are there any type screws that are safest? Stainless? Brass?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I always use brass, but that's because that's what I have. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > either would work as long as the stainless is good stuff. There's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          good and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cheap stainless steel. If the stainless screws are attracted to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          magnet,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they're cheapies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5041 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Digest Number 393 - CRAWDADS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 9/16/04 10:37:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And is forever trying to get out.  We have lowered the water level when we saw he could just about reach the hole where the filter sits.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yup.  Years ago, when I had some I caught in a stream in PA, I was using the old in the corner box filters.  The crawdads had a habit of climbing the air line to get out of the tank.  Had to put a cover on the tank to keep them inside - they liked to attack the cat(s).


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5042 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Can I cycle my new 25 gallon Eclipse by putting in the live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (on order and arriving any day now) with the Seachem Flourite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          adding several rocks from my established tank, and maybe adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          little fish food to the water? I can't see using ammonia with live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          plants! I know that I need to buy some test kits...what type/brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is easiest, yet effective? I'm patient, and willing to enjoy a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with just plants for several weeks, so my new fishies will be safe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks again SOOO much for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5043 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa, HALFBEAKS -- While most of this family is found in salt water, there are a few from Southeast Asia that live in fresh and brackish water. While you do not say which species you are thinking of keeping (I can think of three of the more common ones; Dermogenys pusillus, Dermogenys sumatranus and Hemirhamphodon pogonognathus), D. pusillus is the most commonly kept. They can be kept in freshwater however, especially for pregnate females, the addition of at least a small amount of sea salt (1 to 1 1/2 tsp. per gallon) is essential to prevent mis-carriages. This slight amount will not bother most of the other freshwater fish you plan to keep with them and will not affect most plants either, which can take up to 2 1/2 to 3 tsp. per gallon of salt. Halfbeaks should be fed more nutritous foods than just flake (live Daphnia, frozen bloodworms), again to ensure live delivery of fry. They do not like warmer water and do best at no more than 72o. They are sexed the same as the more common livebearers in that the males have a gonopodium. Probably best kept in trios; in general, two males will fight. SMALL CICHLIDS -- If you want a lot of activity, then Rainbows (of Australia, New Guinia and Irian Jaya) would be your best bet, unless you mean Rainbow Cichlids. While Rainbow Cichlids don't get very large, they can get aggressive at breeding time. You might be better off with Keyhole Cichlids in that case. As for Apisto's and/or Checkerboard Cichlids, I would definitely recommend the Checkerboards as they are more active and again, with Apisto's, come breeding time the female can get quite nasty defending her eggs. BADIS -- For the most part these fish are very peaceful. I've used them in a community tank myself. They can be kept as pairs or in a small group (they do not semi-permanent pair bond like Cichlids, only pair up for breeding). I've kept three pairs in a 29 gallon community tank with Australian Rainbowfish, Tetras and Barbs -- absolutely no problems. They do prefer (require) live food as usually they won't take anything else. The males have a concave underbelly whereas the female's is convex. LOL, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5044 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5045 From: freedombell2002 Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hello

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Is this your 1st Eclipse? If so your going to enjoy it. I have 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Eclipses a 5 hex freshwater, 10 fw , 30 reef and 40 fw. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          great tanks, omost take care of its self. good luck


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sherrie


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Can I cycle my new 25 gallon Eclipse by putting in the live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (on order and arriving any day now) with the Seachem Flourite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > adding several rocks from my established tank, and maybe adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > little fish food to the water? I can't see using ammonia with live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants! I know that I need to buy some test kits...what type/brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is easiest, yet effective? I'm patient, and willing to enjoy a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with just plants for several weeks, so my new fishies will be safe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Thanks again SOOO much for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5046 From: Irene Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Rocks made of Polyresin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have some field stones made out of polyresin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would they be safe to put in my tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Rachel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5047 From: freedombell2002 Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          o yea was going to add if your going to have live plants you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          want to bump up the lights a bit I just put in my 40fw a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Aqua-glo 20w 24" light just one right now it was like 12$ at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          petsmart. My plants seem to be doing better with it. Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "freedombell2002"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Is this your 1st Eclipse? If so your going to enjoy it. I have 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Eclipses a 5 hex freshwater, 10 fw , 30 reef and 40 fw. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > great tanks, omost take care of its self. good luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Can I cycle my new 25 gallon Eclipse by putting in the live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > (on order and arriving any day now) with the Seachem Flourite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > adding several rocks from my established tank, and maybe adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > little fish food to the water? I can't see using ammonia with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > plants! I know that I need to buy some test kits...what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          type/brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > is easiest, yet effective? I'm patient, and willing to enjoy a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > with just plants for several weeks, so my new fishies will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          safe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Thanks again SOOO much for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5048 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, Sherrie...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My first tank is an Eclipse 12 gallon...then I got a ten gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regular glass aquarium at a garage sale, too. Neither were set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          up "fishless", unfortunately. Did lose some in my 12 gallon at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          first, but I think we're "home free" now. Never had a problem w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the 10 gallon. There is no filter, and I set it up planted w/ just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          one pretty Betta boy. It's in my hall bathroom, and I love it, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have six other containers (several gallons each) w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bettas...LOVE 'EM! I want to have a school of Diamond Tetras and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          several corydoras in the 25 gallon tank, and as many live plants as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I can get to live.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I appreciate your info on the Eclipse lighting. I ordered mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          low light plants, but had in mind that I might need to upgrade the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lighting. I'd love to hear from anyone else w/ their experience w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Eclipse tanks and live plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Am anxious to hear about breaking in the new aquarium w/ live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          plants. As I mentioned in my first post about this...using ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          w/ live plants just doesn't sound like a good plan to me!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "freedombell2002"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > o yea was going to add if your going to have live plants you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > want to bump up the lights a bit I just put in my 40fw a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Aqua-glo 20w 24" light just one right now it was like 12$ at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > petsmart. My plants seem to be doing better with it. Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "freedombell2002"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Is this your 1st Eclipse? If so your going to enjoy it. I have 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Eclipses a 5 hex freshwater, 10 fw , 30 reef and 40 fw. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > great tanks, omost take care of its self. good luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Can I cycle my new 25 gallon Eclipse by putting in the live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > (on order and arriving any day now) with the Seachem Flourite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > adding several rocks from my established tank, and maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > little fish food to the water? I can't see using ammonia with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > plants! I know that I need to buy some test kits...what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > type/brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > is easiest, yet effective? I'm patient, and willing to enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > with just plants for several weeks, so my new fishies will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > safe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Thanks again SOOO much for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5049 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society , 9/19/2004, 2:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sunday September 19, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2:00 pm - 4:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This event does not repeat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The next reminder for this event will be sent in 2 days, 18 hours, 3 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.sfbaaps.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Plant Swap at Temescal Cafe (Jeff Kropp)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We will return to Temescal Cafe for our next plant swap on 9/19 at 200 pm (note adjusted time!). It is located on Telegraph Ave. in Oakland. Use the 51st/MLK way exit from E. bound hwy 24 or the Telegraph ave exit on west bound hwy. 24. Nearest BART is the Macarthur BART at 42nd and Telegraph. I could swing by BART to pick up if needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Send a Yahoo! Greeting.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5050 From: harry perry Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis/Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          An excellant post I'm going to save it as a reference. Would you remember where you got the badis. They seen to be hard to come by.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa, HALFBEAKS -- While most of this family is found in salt water, there are a few from Southeast Asia that live in fresh and brackish water. While you do not say which species you are thinking of keeping (I can think of three of the more common ones; Dermogenys pusillus, Dermogenys sumatranus and Hemirhamphodon pogonognathus), D. pusillus is the most commonly kept. They can be kept in freshwater however, especially for pregnate females, the addition of at least a small amount of sea salt (1 to 1 1/2 tsp. per gallon) is essential to prevent mis-carriages. This slight amount will not bother most of the other freshwater fish you plan to keep with them and will not affect most plants either, which can take up to 2 1/2 to 3 tsp. per gallon of salt. Halfbeaks should be fed more nutritous foods than just flake (live Daphnia, frozen bloodworms), again to ensure live delivery of fry. They do not like warmer water and do best at no more than 72o. They are sexed the same as the more common livebearers in that the males have a gonopodium. Probably best kept in trios; in general, two males will fight. SMALL CICHLIDS -- If you want a lot of activity, then Rainbows (of Australia, New Guinia and Irian Jaya) would be your best bet, unless you mean Rainbow Cichlids. While Rainbow Cichlids don't get very large, they can get aggressive at breeding time. You might be better off with Keyhole Cichlids in that case. As for Apisto's and/or Checkerboard Cichlids, I would definitely recommend the Checkerboards as they are more active and again, with Apisto's, come breeding time the female can get quite nasty defending her eggs. BADIS -- For the most part these fish are very peaceful. I've used them in a community tank myself. They can be kept as pairs or in a small group (they do not semi-permanent pair bond like Cichlids, only pair up for breeding). I've kept three pairs in a 29 gallon community tank with Australian Rainbowfish, Tetras and Barbs -- absolutely no problems. They do prefer (require) live food as usually they won't take anything else. The males have a concave underbelly whereas the female's is convex. LOL, Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5051 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Boil an egg, eat the egg, toast the shell for a few minutes to dry it, then crush it and add it to the tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5052 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "o yea was going to add if your going to have live plants you might want to bump up the lights a bit I just put in my 40fw  a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Aqua-glo 20w 24" light just one right now it was like 12$ at petsmart. My plants seem to be doing better with it." -Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sounds a little expensive to me.  GE lights from the lighting section of the lwm (local w-mart) cost half that much and are probably of the same quality.  20w 24" plant bulb at 5000K or 5500K for less about $5.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5053 From: bryants4god Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5054 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5055 From: bryants4god Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have never heard it bothering fish, I have pleco's (2 kinds), mollies, guppies, gourmis, kissing fish and something else I can't remember the name of and it doesn't bother them.  Even in the worst erosion pictures I have seen there have never been holes in the operculum, do you have a clown loach or anything like that in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is from the www.applesnail.net forum on repairing the shell:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. Get Marine Epoxy Putty from your local hardware store. It's in the glue section, and make sure it says it's putty so it is not liquid stuff. It comes in little tubes, the stuff I have is half green half white.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. break open a raw egg, gently rinse out the shell, and nuke it in the microwave for about 2 minutes. After that, here's what I prefer to do rather than using the straight hard shell: peel off large sections of the inner leathery lining and use that to cover the exposed soft tissue. It does not concentrate pressure on places like the shell itself does, so it works wonders on things like fractured and crushed spires.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3. Make sure you don't touch the snail's soft tissue after you have mixed the putty with your hands. Flatten the putty ball out into a very very thin sheet (I try to get it so thin that it will tear if it goes thinner), put the egg lining over the exposed tissue, and put the epoxy sheet over that. Flatten it down. You will need to keep your hands moist but not wet while you do this, and make sure the shell is bone dry, otherwise the putty will either stick to you and not the shell or it won't stick to anything!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4. Let the snail sit somewhere safe out of water for the cure time. Cure time on my putty is 1 hour, and I keep a direct eye on them for this time. After the time is up, I rinse them in a bowl of water to get any excess putty residue off and then plop them back in the tank. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5056 From: Darcy Kane Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Darcy, I would think that the most convenient source of live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nitrifying bacteria would be from the tank you refer to with the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > giant goldfish. Take some of that water and/or filter medium and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > transfer it to your tank and filter. Both of those tanks (the bass'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and the goldfish's) should have filters of some sort if they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > already.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ray, thank you for your response. Both tanks have large external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filters, and I will dip out some water for my tank. Thank you for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              great suggestion!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I would suggest taking some gravel from the Goldfish's tank, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > sounds like your tank has a bare bottom and you probably prefer to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > keep it that way for ease of maintenance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Exactly, my tank bottom is covered with rocks at least 2-3"s in diameter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              each and then a few large ones with plastic plants clumped together at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              one end. The bass is just 5 inches right now so he hides under a rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              overhang when he is looking for a quiet moment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > By the way, smallmouth bass prefer cooler water (with more oxygen)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > than largemouth bass; while it may be impossible to control the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > temperature in a heated classroom in the winter, you ought to supply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > moderate to heavy aeration (and keep the tank covered), especially if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the temperature rises. LOL, Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Right now I have an airpump that hangs over the top of the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              blows a significant amount of air into the water. The fish likes to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              play in the current and bubbles it creates. Is it necessary to have one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of those bubble wand thingies too? The tank is definitely covered, bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are jumpers! When I tap on the side of the tank he comes over and asks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for food. Pavlov would love our little Nemo. He is eating brine shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and the occational salmon egg and has turned his nose up at flakes and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              floating beta food. I can't bring myself to chop up a worm so for now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              he isn't getting any fresh food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Darcy


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5057 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              well a 10 geallon ugf would provide 200 sq inches if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you only multiply length times width, that is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              20x10 plate. then the gravel is also being used by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              drawing down through it. teh oxygen is added by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              uplift tubes blowing air under the plate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi,again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I only quoted the diameter of the wheel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the length of the pleated material when opened out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > was pointing out the amount of material on a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dia. wheel. the surface area would be the width of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > material (length of the wheel ) by the extended
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > length
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of material by two !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Facinating. So there's roughly 100 square inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > surface area on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > each side of the biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I just remembered I still had an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > meters) remember double sided how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filter, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > the biowheel because of this air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > same thing with a different brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              === message truncated ===




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5058 From: WALTER MAYER Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am posting after reading uncle norms post about a diy coil denitrator. These are primarily for marine tanks. However I built one last year for my 125 fw tank. Uncle norm is pretty much correct in construction except for some deminsions. The tube is 9" high, 8-1/2" in diameter. The inside wall has a coil of 1/4" tubing, coiled from the bottom to the top. It's around 75 feet of tubing. The center is filled to the top with bio-balls for the bacteria to thrive.It is indeed drip fed, and takes 6 to 8 weeks for it to begin the full process.After this it does indeed produce denitrated water along with a mixture of gases. Since it has been working I have never had a test reading over 20.0 for Nitrate. It has reduced water changes (which is the reason for it in marine tanks) to about 1/2. Well worth the aggravation of building it. ( The coil is some what difficult to build.) Well thats my input.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Best fishes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Walt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I had heard of this NITREX BOX and looked into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it before, but came to the conclusion that it was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gimmick and stood little chance of working and even if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it did would prove to be pretty expensive to run apart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              from having to dig it in and out of the substrate on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regular basis to change the media so I admit to having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              no personal experience, but before making this post I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have spent some time researching it again in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anticipation of some one bringing it up, All I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is that I cannot find anybody that is not financially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              involved, with a good word for it, in fact a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              people totally condemn it saying it caused utter havoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in there tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is another method under this name, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              can't say product as it is a do it yourself project,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it entails along length of small bore pipe about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              twenty five feet or so in a coil,you feed the aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water into one end very very slowly then get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              denitrated water and gas out the other end. The theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              being that aerobic bacteria work in the inlet end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the pipe removing ammonia, nitrite and most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              oxygen while the outlet end becomes Anaerobic and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              removes the nitrate. While the theory is sound I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              see a lot of problems, very very little surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for the bacteria to colonise, it would need to be drip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fed to get a slow enough flow so you would realy need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to install it in a sump, usualy sumps are associated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with large tanks, I think it's impact on a large tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              would be minimal. There are reports of a number of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              people trying it, most said it did remove Nitrates but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              only in small amounts and that they didn't think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              worth the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       One day when I'm looking for something to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I might experiment to see if I can improve the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              volume/time scale that it appears to work at.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ............Try typing NITREX BOX, or NITREX BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > AQUARIUM in GOOGLE. It's used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bacteria, which are used to change nitrate into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nitrogen. You should find other sources there that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > relate to other products used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >                              JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > long tubular column of slow moving water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > exhaust the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > uniquely beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Mathur" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bed or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > biological filters. Even though it may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Since the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > have heard some people having continuous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bacterial bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Re: External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >> --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>>>> that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filtration. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5059 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks, Patrick...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'll have to trot over and see what they have in the plant light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              department. I do want my plants to do well. Meantime, I really do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              need to know how to proceed with the cycling situation. Any help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will be appreciated. I'm thinking that I read somewhere that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              can just go ahead and plant the aquarium, run the lights and "feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the fish" even though there are no fish in the tank. Guess no water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              changes until the tank is cycled. I need to buy some test kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              too. What kind is easiest for a grandma to work with?!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "o yea was going to add if your going to have live plants you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              might want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bump up the lights a bit I just put in my 40fw a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Aqua-glo 20w 24" light just one right now it was like 12$ at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              petsmart. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plants seem to be doing better with it." -Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sounds a little expensive to me. GE lights from the lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              section of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the lwm (local w-mart) cost half that much and are probably of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > quality. 20w 24" plant bulb at 5000K or 5500K for less about $5.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5060 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Aquarium pharm. liquid test kits are the cheapest, easiest, accuratest test kits I know of.  Just make sure you have a good light to tell the colors apart.  You are exactly right about feeding the tank even though there are no fish.  Since you have tanks going already, go to your oldest and vacuum a little mulm to go in there and that should get it going well.  Am I repeating this, or am I just answering the same question all over the internet? :)  Ammonia and live plants...I'm not sure how much they can take but I have read it is possible.  It really isn't needed that much though.  If you are going to fill the tank with a lot of plants at the beginning, a fishless cycle might not be worth the trouble, but it depends on how many plants you put in there and how fast they use nitrogen compounds.  Besides, with the mulm from the established tank you will have it really easy.  I see no reason to have to go through the full cycle once you have an established tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    By the way, Rule #1 for aquaria: If you can find a similar product outside the aquarium products, it will almost always be cheaper.  Salt, sand, sealant, and lighting are the things that I can think of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Patrick...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'll have to trot over and see what they have in the plant light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                department.  I do want my plants to do well.  Meantime, I really do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                need to know how to proceed with the cycling situation.  Any help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will be appreciated.  I'm thinking that I read somewhere that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can just go ahead and plant the aquarium, run the lights and "feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the fish" even though there are no fish in the tank.  Guess no water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                changes until the tank is cycled.  I need to buy some test kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                too.  What kind is easiest for a grandma to work with?!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5061 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Patrick...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sounds like I mainly need to buy a decent test kit and do some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                experimenting! Just don't want to lose any fish OR plants if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                don't have to. I'll be patient and see what happens. The little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Diamond Tetras will be here soon enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I really appreciate your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Aquarium pharm. liquid test kits are the cheapest, easiest,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                accuratest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > test kits I know of. Just make sure you have a good light to tell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > colors apart. You are exactly right about feeding the tank even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > there are no fish. Since you have tanks going already, go to your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                oldest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and vacuum a little mulm to go in there and that should get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                going well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Am I repeating this, or am I just answering the same question all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                over the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > internet? :) Ammonia and live plants...I'm not sure how much they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but I have read it is possible. It really isn't needed that much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you are going to fill the tank with a lot of plants at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                beginning, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fishless cycle might not be worth the trouble, but it depends on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants you put in there and how fast they use nitrogen compounds.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Besides,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with the mulm from the established tank you will have it really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                easy. I see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > no reason to have to go through the full cycle once you have an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                established
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > By the way, Rule #1 for aquaria: If you can find a similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                product
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > outside the aquarium products, it will almost always be cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Salt, sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sealant, and lighting are the things that I can think of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks, Patrick...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'll have to trot over and see what they have in the plant light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > department. I do want my plants to do well. Meantime, I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > need to know how to proceed with the cycling situation. Any help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will be appreciated. I'm thinking that I read somewhere that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can just go ahead and plant the aquarium, run the lights and "feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish" even though there are no fish in the tank. Guess no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > changes until the tank is cycled. I need to buy some test kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > too. What kind is easiest for a grandma to work with?!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5062 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you sure can, you may not even need the food, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                know a few people here support doing that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Can I cycle my new 25 gallon Eclipse by putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (on order and arriving any day now) with the Seachem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Flourite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > adding several rocks from my established tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maybe adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > little fish food to the water? I can't see using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia with live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants! I know that I need to buy some test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > kits...what type/brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is easiest, yet effective? I'm patient, and willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to enjoy a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with just plants for several weeks, so my new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fishies will be safe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks again SOOO much for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5063 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well said. in the e bay area of sf california, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrates are between 35 and 40 straight from the tap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Stan,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This threed seams to be causing quite a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > confusion, here are a few facts that might help to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clear the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Biowheels, wet & dry, under gravel, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > all other forms of biological filters provide an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > environment for Aerobic Bacteria to colonize and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the aquarium water to be passed over them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > One strain of Aerobic bacteria consume the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia present and turn it into Nitrite, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > strain of Aerobic bacteria consume the Nitrite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > turn it into Nitrate this is as far as our bio.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters go, the Nitrates are dealt with by doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > frequent water changes with Nitrate free water, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > better still by having a nice planted tank, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will consume the Nitrate. NOTE - a lot of tap and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water contains Nitrate among other non desirable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Anaerobic bacteria will consume Nitrate and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > give of a gas which escapes to the atmosphere, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this to occur you need to have a deep sand bed at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > least 6" to provide the anaerobic conditions in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lower layer for bacteria to exist. the sand bed must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > also be 'live' i.e. contain plenty of critters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and the like to stop the sand compacting by keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in motion and allowing limited circulation so the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrate can reach the lower Anaerobic layer, this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not feasible in a fresh water tank due mainly to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lack of suitable critters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Deep sand beds are often used to control
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrates in salt water aquariums and work very well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my experience, but I now of no one that has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > successful with this method in fresh water tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > long tubular column of slow moving water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > exhaust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > uniquely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biological filters. Even though it may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have heard some people having continuous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5064 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the biowheel is no gimmick, but i have not seeen one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yet that keeps a tank as stable as a ugf. on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                upside, if you combine the 2, you have a nearly bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                proof tank. together they are awesome, separate they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have their faults. just like any couple out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > So aerobic bacteria are more desirable in the FW
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > aquarium than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic bacteria. That's a good bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > information, Patrick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And it implies that the BW filter really does do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > someting over and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > above what the sponge filter or an UGF does since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the exposure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > oxygen is a lot greater in the BWF.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Since the exposure to oxygen favors the development
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of aerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria and since aerobic bacteria are more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > effective than anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria at the important biological filtering in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FW aquarium, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > BWF is a more effective filter. QED?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well at least I'm past the point of consigning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > BWF to the realm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of "gimmick" and am willing to admit the possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that it actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > does perform a useful biological filtering function.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Aerobic bacteria are the ones converting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia and nitrite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria convert nitrate, or that is how I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > understand it. Anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria are the ones in liver rock in saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tanks that keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > down to 0. In freshwater tanks, nitrates isn't a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > big problem so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > never heard much about getting anaerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to live. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > heard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that it can be bad for a freshwater tank to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in dead zones of a ugf.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About the flow rate of a ugf being small, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't think it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that small, but the larger the tank the less it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > compared to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > size of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the tank. That is probably why many people use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > large power heads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tanks with ugf's. In my 1 gallon, I would bet the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water passes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ugf at a pretty good rate, maybe 3 times an hour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 albino and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > please tell me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5065 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium.� it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.�
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> your tank.� if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5066 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one quick note on that, POWERHEADS. they are made to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fit directly on to the ugf uplift tubes. the smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ones (201)will pull 126 gallons per hour down through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                teh gravel as opposewd to the 25 or so gph that an air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pump would draw. each powerhead also has teh option
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of air injection, giving the water a higher oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                concentration, and pulling it back through the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with 2 of these (one in each corner) you can draw 252
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gph through the gravel, 125 through each half,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                creating no dead spots. while the larger biowheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                may have 100 square inches per side, the smaller one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                only have 100 total. the size for a 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                has 1/2 of the surface area, and moves 1/2 the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                another problem with eth wheel is that it easily can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stop moving, causing the bacteria to die and decay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if it is not checked often, it can become useless. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                am not against biowheels in the slightest, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                don't feel, from both personal and business
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                experience, that they can support a tank as well as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ugf in a stand alone situation. in fact, i often sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them in combination with the ugf to make a "bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                proof tank".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea made a good observation: While the UG has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lot more surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > area it doesn't "process" anywhere near the volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of water per hour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that the BW does. At best the flow through an UG is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a tiny trickle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > due to the flow resistance of the gravel. Of course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that small volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > stays in contact with the bacteria that much longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > But that discussion is deviating from my curosity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with the biowheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > viv a vis a plain bio-sponge placed in the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > box: Does the fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that it exposes the bacteria to fresh air during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > part of its cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > somehow aide in the culturing of a beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria? I venture a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > guess here and say that exposure to fresh air tilts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the balance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacterial growth in favor of aerobic bacteria and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tilts against
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic bacteria. Is this somehow a plus for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > biological filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If aerobic baterica is more desirable than anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the biowheel provides a real filtering advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > over the sponge (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maybe over the UG filter also which heavily favors
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria), if not then it makes the wheel just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > another filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gimmick with no pratical value beyond what a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > biosponge would provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium.� it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filtration.� it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > your tank.� if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > ����� �����
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5067 From: paul helms Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it all depends on what size tank that filter is for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as i said in a previous post, the ugf for a 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank is more than 200 square inches, not including the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel which is used by the ugf, which is much higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                than that. paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I just remembered I still had an old biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > meters) remember double sided how does that compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > <lrec_companion_043004.gif>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5068 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So do you think I should remove it since I have no intention at this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                point of using it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> <lrec_companion_043004.gif>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> <l.gif>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5069 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One point regarding the flow rate of powerheads: That flow rate is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                specified with no flow resistance and zero head. I would venture that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the 120 gph drops down to less than 20% of that with a decent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thinkness of gravel bed in series with the flow, something just above
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a trickle. I certainly isn't going to be the same as what the box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                says for flowrate, physically that's unrealistic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Also I am hard pressed to think that a UG filter will flow even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                twenty percent of 25gph through an airlift tube, the flow resistance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of the gravel again will limit the the flow capacity of either
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                system. Try filling a quart container with the outflow of an airtube
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                held just above the water surface, it takes a good five to ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                minutes to get even that much. Also small bubbles work better than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                large bubbles at moving water but it takes a greater pressure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                differential to create them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Presuming a 200 sq in GUF,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                5gph/200 = .025 gph per sqin = 94ml/hr = 94cm^3/hr,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1in2 = 6.45 cm2, 94/6.45 = 15 cm/hr = 5.73 in/hr is the rate of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water travel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So if the gravel is 2" thick the water spends .34hr or about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                minutes in the gravel. I have no data on oxygen consumption of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                aquatic aerobic bacteria but I would imagine that a half life of ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                minutes is reasonable, and is similiar to the time constant of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                salt water anaerobic converters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So in a 2 inch gravel bed oxygen might be reduced to 25% of its open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water levels. Probably a bit much for anaerobic activity. But for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                six in gravel bed, using the same flow rates, oxygen is probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                down to about 6% of open water levels, and I would agree with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other posts about anaerobic activity taking place at this reduced O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                level.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Its true that a stuck biowheel will kill off the bacteria but only if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                part of it is allowed to dry out, but I believe (not having measured
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it) that the wheel is porous enough so that any part of it in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water would keep the entire filter wet like a blotter and preserve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I welcome any evidence either supporting or contradicting any of this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one quick note on that, POWERHEADS. they are made to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fit directly on to the ugf uplift tubes. the smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ones (201)will pull 126 gallons per hour down through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > teh gravel as opposewd to the 25 or so gph that an air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pump would draw. each powerhead also has teh option
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of air injection, giving the water a higher oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > concentration, and pulling it back through the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with 2 of these (one in each corner) you can draw 252
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gph through the gravel, 125 through each half,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > creating no dead spots. while the larger biowheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > may have 100 square inches per side, the smaller one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only have 100 total. the size for a 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > has 1/2 of the surface area, and moves 1/2 the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > another problem with eth wheel is that it easily can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > stop moving, causing the bacteria to die and decay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if it is not checked often, it can become useless. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > am not against biowheels in the slightest, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't feel, from both personal and business
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > experience, that they can support a tank as well as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ugf in a stand alone situation. in fact, i often sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them in combination with the ugf to make a "bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > proof tank".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > amalthea made a good observation: While the UG has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > lot more surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > area it doesn't "process" anywhere near the volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of water per hour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that the BW does. At best the flow through an UG is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a tiny trickle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > due to the flow resistance of the gravel. Of course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that small volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > stays in contact with the bacteria that much longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > But that discussion is deviating from my curosity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with the biowheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > viv a vis a plain bio-sponge placed in the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > box: Does the fact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that it exposes the bacteria to fresh air during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > part of its cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > somehow aide in the culturing of a beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria? I venture a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > guess here and say that exposure to fresh air tilts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the balance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacterial growth in favor of aerobic bacteria and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tilts against
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > anaerobic bacteria. Is this somehow a plus for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > biological filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > If aerobic baterica is more desirable than anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the biowheel provides a real filtering advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > over the sponge (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > maybe over the UG filter also which heavily favors
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria), if not then it makes the wheel just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > another filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gimmick with no pratical value beyond what a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > biosponge would provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > still nothing compared to the area under the plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium.  it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filtration.  it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > your tank.  if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > === message truncated ===
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5070 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've seen a few Coralife and other HO flourescents on ebay recently,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ViewItem&rd=1&item=4324477781&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You might change out the actinic bulb for a 6700K in a FW planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank if you bought one of these.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There have been a few good used lighting deals on ebay lately, making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the top end systems almost affordable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As for test kits, I've seen a Hagen 10 or 12 test "master test kit"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for $39 on several discounting websites. Bought one for myself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks, Patrick...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'll have to trot over and see what they have in the plant light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > department. I do want my plants to do well. Meantime, I really do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > need to know how to proceed with the cycling situation. Any help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will be appreciated. I'm thinking that I read somewhere that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can just go ahead and plant the aquarium, run the lights and "feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish" even though there are no fish in the tank. Guess no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > changes until the tank is cycled. I need to buy some test kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > too. What kind is easiest for a grandma to work with?!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > "o yea was going to add if your going to have live plants you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > might want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bump up the lights a bit I just put in my 40fw a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Aqua-glo 20w 24" light just one right now it was like 12$ at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > petsmart. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants seem to be doing better with it." -Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sounds a little expensive to me. GE lights from the lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > section of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the lwm (local w-mart) cost half that much and are probably of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > quality. 20w 24" plant bulb at 5000K or 5500K for less about $5.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5071 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This NITREX BOX is an interesting concept. Even if it does do what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they claim it does I'm not sure I want something removing all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrates from my water as then I would have to add back nitrates for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I saw and read through an interestig construction article for one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                those anaerobic coils: You move the water slowly through the coil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                while aerobic bacteria use up all the oxygen and at the end anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacteria remain to remove the nitrates. Regulating water flow to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                insure low oxygen content in the last third of the travel is the key
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to getting the anaerobic activity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I had heard of this NITREX BOX and looked into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it before, but came to the conclusion that it was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gimmick and stood little chance of working and even if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it did would prove to be pretty expensive to run apart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > from having to dig it in and out of the substrate on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regular basis to change the media so I admit to having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > no personal experience, but before making this post I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have spent some time researching it again in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anticipation of some one bringing it up, All I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is that I cannot find anybody that is not financially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > involved, with a good word for it, in fact a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > people totally condemn it saying it caused utter havoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in there tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > There is another method under this name, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can't say product as it is a do it yourself project,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it entails along length of small bore pipe about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > twenty five feet or so in a coil,you feed the aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water into one end very very slowly then get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > denitrated water and gas out the other end. The theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > being that aerobic bacteria work in the inlet end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the pipe removing ammonia, nitrite and most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > oxygen while the outlet end becomes Anaerobic and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > removes the nitrate. While the theory is sound I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > see a lot of problems, very very little surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for the bacteria to colonise, it would need to be drip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fed to get a slow enough flow so you would realy need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to install it in a sump, usualy sumps are associated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with large tanks, I think it's impact on a large tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would be minimal. There are reports of a number of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > people trying it, most said it did remove Nitrates but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only in small amounts and that they didn't think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > worth the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > One day when I'm looking for something to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I might experiment to see if I can improve the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > volume/time scale that it appears to work at.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ............Try typing NITREX BOX, or NITREX BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > AQUARIUM in GOOGLE. It's used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria, which are used to change nitrate into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > nitrogen. You should find other sources there that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > relate to other products used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > long tubular column of slow moving water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > exhaust the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > uniquely beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Mathur" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bed or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biological filters. Even though it may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Since the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > have heard some people having continuous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacterial bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Re: External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filtration. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > === message truncated ===
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5072 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well, for one the flow rate of the power head is very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                close to what it claims. they are very well built and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                function very well for a long period of time. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel does not impede the flow much at all, which you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                could easily discover by trying it out. a 6 inch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel bed is not used with a ugf, plain and simple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the standard 2 inch gravel bed does not move or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                compact much when the water is being pulled through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                evenly. it may get compacted when low flow is used,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but the power heads do pull at least 100 gallons an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hour up the uplift tubes. when placed on them, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is very little resistence. i don't know where you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pulling all of these magical numbers that you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from, but simply try it out. the flow rate through a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ugf is amazing with the powerheads. as far as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flow rate with an air pump, that is just what i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                taking away from cal state hatyward professors in both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the mathematics and biology fields, but i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do not know about that. i was skeptical as well on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that one myself. powerheads i do know however. i use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                three in my 120 gallon reef tank and 2 in my 55 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fresh water tank with ugf. the fresh water tank is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                breeding tank, with no filtration outside of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ugf/power heads, and has been running successfully for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 years now. i have bred easily 1,000 guppies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                around 25 cori cats in that tank. i do also have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bio wheel 125 on my 7 gallon reef tank (for aeration)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                along with a fluval 104 (for the actual biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter) and it is doing very well.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5073 From: bucks_boogie@webtv.net Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just outside of Buffalo, Paul. As Amethea said, there's a huge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difference in price. Not a that much of a biggie, though. $10 vs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                $20-$30 for the ab vs the eb. Crayfish are just that, over priced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                inverts. I remember paying 3 bucks US for some red lobsters, full of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                parasites after about a week as it turned out, then finding them alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                on ice for about 27 cents a piece as food grade at a local grocery store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                without the worms coming out of the joints.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Damaged and I like it. It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5074 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have just spent some time writing about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                UGF's only to have yahoo crash and swallow it up!, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                third time to day!!, so this time I will try to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Under Gravel Filter work fine if properly set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                up, you should have a strong water flow up the outlet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pipes by ether using a strong air flow to move a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of water up and out of the tubes not just bubbles, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                power heads sucking the water up so you can visibly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                see the water flow within the tank, the water should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be circulating over the whole area below plate not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just in the corners around the uplift tubes, you need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fairly course gravel to allow circulation through it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                over the whole of its area, if these conditions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                met then it should work fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the most common faults are using sand or fine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel as a substrate which in time restricts or stops
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the water flow over most of the area, or insufficient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                air and therefore very little flow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Both of these conditions can create deed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                areas bellow the plate which can then become stagnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and probably anaerobic at which stage you have very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                little if any biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5075 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: mean scat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i have 4 scats that all school well together. but when feeding time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comes, one of the scats gets really mean and starts aggressively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bothering the rest of the scats. this goes on for a while and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hes back to normal. is there anything i should worry about? if so,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what should i do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5076 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The bio wheel I used as an example as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                said was a comparatively small one I used it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as I said in an earlier post I do not condemn bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wheels or UGF's I was just pointing out that they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there problems, and I think I said I much prefer the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                simple wet and dry with bio balls, I even use lava
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rock in a lot of mine, cheep and very effective, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the filters are also cheep and easy to make yourself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it all depends on what size tank that filter is for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as i said in a previous post, the ugf for a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank is more than 200 square inches, not including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel which is used by the ugf, which is much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than that. paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just remembered I still had an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > meters) remember double sided how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > same thing with a different brand name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > exceptions: One is the possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > if it in fact is really any better than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > diatom filter medium, such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > (which does not seem to be around any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Anyone have any insight into hangon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5077 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I just flashed that Almathea has a syringe in her aquarium. If you decide to keep your unused undergravel filter in the tank, you could take samples of the water under the plate and check for nitrate-levels with a syringe. Whether or not filter-plates remain. the difference between oxygenated water movement with or without plates is measureable. I don't know how to check for hydrogen sulfide using a kit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > So do you think I should remove it since I have no intention at this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > point of using it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5078 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think my numbers are realistic, which do you disagree with? And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one bottom line is that they realistically match the flow designs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                denitrofiers, so if they off they're not off by much. I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there's anything "magic" about any of this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Actually I did a measure of flow with an airtube, that's how I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that the flow is about that much. But in all fairness I am using a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                finer gravel than you probably are, I'm using a #10 silicon sand,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                approximently three mm average particle size, and two inches of that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                really puts a cap on the UGF flow. It took forever to fill up a quart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                container, as I said before. Try it sometime when you have a broken
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                down tank and let me know what you get with a coarser gravel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have no doubt that the flow of the powerhead is as advertised or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                close to it in openm water, but remember that powerhead pumps are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rated at zero flow resistance and zero head, a condition that does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not exist in any actual application. They dimish in flow with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                resistance, even a coarse gravel offers resistance. Also you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                observe a certain flow at the pump nozel that may not be the actual
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                UGF tube flow unless you are careful to seal off the flue and avoid a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bypass.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As to your Hayward references I would appreciate the links so as to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                enjoy the reading.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > well, for one the flow rate of the power head is very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > close to what it claims. they are very well built and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > function very well for a long period of time. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel does not impede the flow much at all, which you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > could easily discover by trying it out. a 6 inch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel bed is not used with a ugf, plain and simple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the standard 2 inch gravel bed does not move or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > compact much when the water is being pulled through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > evenly. it may get compacted when low flow is used,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but the power heads do pull at least 100 gallons an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hour up the uplift tubes. when placed on them, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is very little resistence. i don't know where you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pulling all of these magical numbers that you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > from, but simply try it out. the flow rate through a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ugf is amazing with the powerheads. as far as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flow rate with an air pump, that is just what i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > taking away from cal state hatyward professors in both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the mathematics and biology fields, but i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > do not know about that. i was skeptical as well on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that one myself. powerheads i do know however. i use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > three in my 120 gallon reef tank and 2 in my 55 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fresh water tank with ugf. the fresh water tank is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > breeding tank, with no filtration outside of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ugf/power heads, and has been running successfully for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 years now. i have bred easily 1,000 guppies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > around 25 cori cats in that tank. i do also have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bio wheel 125 on my 7 gallon reef tank (for aeration)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > along with a fluval 104 (for the actual biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter) and it is doing very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5079 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The bio wheel I used as an example as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > said was a comparatively small one I used it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square inches,


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me, 2.5 inches does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5080 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, I've become concerned about this since someone mentioned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                posibility of toxins being generated under the unused, uncirculated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plates. I'm thinking of breaking down the tank and removing it now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My friend of thirty years who has owned many a fish shop talked me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                into putting it in (it was part of the package that I got on ebay)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but I had no intention of using it. I shaped my bottom with a shallow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rock lined fore area and a deep gravel back area so I'm not sure how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                useful the UGF would be anyway since my substrate is so asymetrical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                depthwise.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I just flashed that Almathea has a syringe in her aquarium. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you decide to keep your unused undergravel filter in the tank, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                could take samples of the water under the plate and check for nitrate-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                levels with a syringe. Whether or not filter-plates remain. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difference between oxygenated water movement with or without plates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is measureable. I don't know how to check for hydrogen sulfide using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > So do you think I should remove it since I have no intention at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > point of using it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >> today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>> http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5081 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you read the original post you will see I said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                was 2.5" diameter yes the length is 9" , that is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comparatively small wheel, most are a much greater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dia. and it is the dia. which is the major dimension
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in regard to the overall surface area (due to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pleating).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > said was a comparatively small one I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5082 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, I know, to everything except the 9 in width, and that being a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                small BW. I've seen a few of these in the stores and never seen one 9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in wide. More like 3-4 in. No reason that there couldn't be a 9 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wide wheel but thoes I've seen have been about half that width.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yes, I've become concerned about this since someone mentioned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > posibility of toxins being generated under the unused, uncirculated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plates. I'm thinking of breaking down the tank and removing it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My friend of thirty years who has owned many a fish shop talked me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > into putting it in (it was part of the package that I got on ebay)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but I had no intention of using it. I shaped my bottom with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                shallow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > rock lined fore area and a deep gravel back area so I'm not sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > useful the UGF would be anyway since my substrate is so asymetrical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > depthwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just flashed that Almathea has a syringe in her aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you decide to keep your unused undergravel filter in the tank, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > could take samples of the water under the plate and check for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrate-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > levels with a syringe. Whether or not filter-plates remain. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > difference between oxygenated water movement with or without plates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is measureable. I don't know how to check for hydrogen sulfide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > So do you think I should remove it since I have no intention at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > point of using it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > > --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > >>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5083 From: shortlid Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Do the vaction feeders work??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do the cakes for food for long vactions away from home work?? The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ones you buy that are in the shape of a seashell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5084 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One cannot calculate the useable surface area of a gravel bed or a biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter or for that matter, any filter medium for bacterial purposes. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are you guys getting at? 1sq inch of lava rock gravel will have 1000 times
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more useable surface area for bacteria then standard pea gravel will..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                similarly, for biowheels and other filter media, a lot depends on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                porous nature and the uneven surfaces of the media rather then just opening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the length of the foam material and calculating this way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: radzewicz@... [mailto:radzewicz@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 17 September 2004 12:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> The bio wheel I used as an example as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> said was a comparatively small one I used it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me, 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5085 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Stan,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I had toxic gasses buildup in my canister filter once when it got choked.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Should I also start thinking about not using canister filters?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Everything can fall over and everything can work miracles. If a UGF works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for you well and has for the past few years, let it go on. No need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                replace a thing that's not broken. Every filter for that matter can create
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                problems if not maintained and choked.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: radzewicz@... [mailto:radzewicz@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 17 September 2004 12:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Yes, I've become concerned about this since someone mentioned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >posibility of toxins being generated under the unused, uncirculated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >plates. I'm thinking of breaking down the tank and removing it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >My friend of thirty years who has owned many a fish shop talked me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >into putting it in (it was part of the package that I got on ebay)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >but I had no intention of using it. I shaped my bottom with a shallow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >rock lined fore area and a deep gravel back area so I'm not sure how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >useful the UGF would be anyway since my substrate is so asymetrical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >depthwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> I just flashed that Almathea has a syringe in her aquarium. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >you decide to keep your unused undergravel filter in the tank, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >could take samples of the water under the plate and check for nitrate-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >levels with a syringe. Whether or not filter-plates remain. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >difference between oxygenated water movement with or without plates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >is measureable. I don't know how to check for hydrogen sulfide using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >a kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > So do you think I should remove it since I have no intention at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > point of using it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > i have never seen, and do not personally know anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates? That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > > --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> that is provided for biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> paper thin and much smaller than teh foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>> --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> Does anyone have any opinion on the Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> an improvement over a sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> filtering?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> As far as I can tell all these external
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> hangon boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> same thing with a different brand name on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> them, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> exceptions: One is the possible enhancement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> Biowheel thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> if it in fact is really any better than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> sponge and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> the other is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> diatom filter medium, such as the Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> Systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> System 1 filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> (which does not seem to be around any more).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> Otherwise if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> any difference between different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> hang-on-the-back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> boxes I would hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> to have to survive on that slim a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> Anyone have any insight into hangon filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >> that I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> overlooking?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > > > >>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > > === message truncated ===
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5086 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ammonia & live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I got an email confirming that some of the plants will be arriving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today, so I'm going to buy a test kit and get ready! Hope I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have any trouble planting. I remember having a problem before, when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they wanted to float to the top, but I wasn't using the Flourite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                then...so hope this goes smoothly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hope everyone has a great day!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you sure can, you may not even need the food, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > know a few people here support doing that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Can I cycle my new 25 gallon Eclipse by putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > (on order and arriving any day now) with the Seachem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Flourite,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > adding several rocks from my established tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > maybe adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > little fish food to the water? I can't see using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ammonia with live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants! I know that I need to buy some test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > kits...what type/brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is easiest, yet effective? I'm patient, and willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to enjoy a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with just plants for several weeks, so my new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fishies will be safe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks again SOOO much for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5087 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis/Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5088 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Do the vaction feeders work??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From what I have heard from people who used them, the mostly pollute the water.  The fish will eat them, but they will also need more water changes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do the cakes for food for long vactions away from home work??  The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ones you buy that are in the shape of a seashell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5089 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: halfbeaks, small cichlids, badis/Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I too am looking for Badis right now as I no longer have any. Those Badis (Badis badis) I just wrote about were acquired some time ago when I was much younger (in my teens) from a favorite store in Manhattan -- New York, NY -- by the name of Aquarium Stock Company, in 1954, which also had a sister store at the time in Los Angeles. I had a pair of Badis burmanicus about 4 years ago, but lost the female before I could get a spawn. Getting back to the Badis badis (the community tank); while I did not find them to be too bold, they were not at all shy in the community situation. I believe the constant schooling of the various peaceful Tetras (Glow Lights, Lemons & Serpaes) brought the best out in them. They would hang around under the leaves of Amazon Sword plants, as they were not set up for breeding -- did not have any flowerpots. I found their various color patterns to be absolutely fascinating. Will advise if I hear of anything on the Badis Group. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5090 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also remember that the larger the filter plate, the lower the resistance on the pump.  There is more than enough spaces for water to flow unrestricted.  I doubt there is any resistance on the pump that isn't there without the gravel. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think my numbers are realistic, which do you disagree with?  And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one bottom line is that they realistically match the flow designs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    denitrofiers, so if they off they're not off by much. I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there's anything "magic" about any of this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually I did a measure of flow with an airtube, that's how I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that the flow is about that much. But in all fairness I am using a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    finer gravel than you probably are, I'm using a #10 silicon sand,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    approximently three mm average particle size, and two inches of that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    really puts a cap on the UGF flow. It took forever to fill up a quart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    container, as I said before. Try it sometime when you have a broken
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down tank and let me know what you get with a coarser gravel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have no doubt that the flow of the powerhead is as advertised or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    close to it in openm water, but remember that powerhead pumps are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    rated at zero flow resistance and zero head, a condition that does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not exist in any actual application. They dimish in flow with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    resistance, even a coarse gravel offers resistance.  Also you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    observe a certain flow at the pump nozel that may not be the actual
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    UGF tube flow unless you are careful to seal off the flue and avoid a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bypass.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As to your Hayward references I would appreciate the links so as to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    enjoy the reading.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5091 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: cloudy water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    With Nemo's "training" (conditioning), it sounds like he would have been the perfect study for Pavlov. Have you tried ringing a bell yet at feeding time (ha ha)? While a bubble wand should not really be necessary, you might want to consider one, especially if the tank temperature rises. A Largemouth Bass may have been the better choice (because of their higher temerature tolerance), but I wish you and the students All the Best with Nemo. If by chance the temperature ever rises to the point where he becomes stressed -- coming up to the surface for more oxygen -- and lets hope that never happens, you can safely increase the disolved oxygen supply in his immediate vicinity by spraying (don't ever use a Windex bottle or Windex near the tank) Hydrogen Peroxide near him -- not too near, about 1/2 foot or so away, at the surface of the water. This is a temporary measure if the conditions ever warrant it, with perhaps the gradual addition of ice cubes to lower the temperature. As for feeding, you might want to try Black Worms (similar to Tubifex Worms) which don't need cutting, then as he grows, feed him small whole earthworms. I'm pretty sure that frozen Bloodworms would be accepted right now unless he's really finicky, or perhaps some of the freeze-dried fish foods like Krill. Best of Luck, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5092 From: shortlid Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Small amount of SALT in Fresh Water Tropical Aquarium?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have read allot of places that it is a good idea to a very small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amount of seasalt at every water change to a freash water tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquarium. It helps keep teh Plattes and Mollies healthy??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5093 From: Michelle in PDX Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    In case anyone is interested there is a yahoo group specific to pet crayfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Pet_Crayfish@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is not a high volume group but they are really helpful with questions/problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had an EB crayfish for three years. Just lost her a couple of weeks ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now have another small one that has eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Michelle in PDX
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5094 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Terri, we bought some calcium stuff today hopefully it should start to work soon!..and i am going to try the shell repair on a few of the snails. The adult snail i mentioned that had the hole is still alive it sits there all day but this morning it was moving around. No clowns have attacked it the operculum seems very weak. so hopefully the calcium will work on that as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/17/04 00:26:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have never heard it bothering fish, I have pleco's (2 kinds), mollies, guppies, gourmis, kissing fish and something else I can't remember the name of and it doesn't bother them.  Even in the worst erosion pictures I have seen there have never been holes in the operculum, do you have a clown loach or anything like that in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is from the www.applesnail.net forum on repairing the shell:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. Get Marine Epoxy Putty from your local hardware store. It's in the glue section, and make sure it says it's putty so it is not liquid stuff. It comes in little tubes, the stuff I have is half green half white.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. break open a raw egg, gently rinse out the shell, and nuke it in the microwave for about 2 minutes. After that, here's what I prefer to do rather than using the straight hard shell: peel off large sections of the inner leathery lining and use that to cover the exposed soft tissue. It does not concentrate pressure on places like the shell itself does, so it works wonders on things like fractured and crushed spires.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3. Make sure you don't touch the snail's soft tissue after you have mixed the putty with your hands. Flatten the putty ball out into a very very thin sheet (I try to get it so thin that it will tear if it goes thinner), put the egg lining over the exposed tissue, and put the epoxy sheet over that. Flatten it down. You will need to keep your hands moist but not wet while you do this, and make sure the shell is bone dry, otherwise the putty will either stick to you and not the shell or it won't stick to anything!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    4. Let the snail sit somewhere safe out of water for the cure time. Cure time on my putty is 1 hour, and I keep a direct eye on them for this time. After the time is up, I rinse them in a bowl of water to get any excess putty residue off and then plop them back in the tank. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5095 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If your other fish are tolerant of Melafix that will help them perk back up also.  They can handle a full dose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Terri, we bought some calcium stuff today hopefully it should start to work soon!..and i am going to try the shell repair on a few of the snails. The adult snail i mentioned that had the hole is still alive it sits there all day but this morning it was moving around. No clowns have attacked it the operculum seems very weak. so hopefully the calcium will work on that as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/17/04 00:26:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have never heard it bothering fish, I have pleco's (2 kinds), mollies, guppies, gourmis, kissing fish and something else I can't remember the name of and it doesn't bother them.  Even in the worst erosion pictures I have seen there have never been holes in the operculum, do you have a clown loach or anything like that in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is from the www.applesnail.net forum on repairing the shell:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. Get Marine Epoxy Putty from your local hardware store. It's in the glue section, and make sure it says it's putty so it is not liquid stuff. It comes in little tubes, the stuff I have is half green half white.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. break open a raw egg, gently rinse out the shell, and nuke it in the microwave for about 2 minutes. After that, here's what I prefer to do rather than using the straight hard shell: peel off large sections of the inner leathery lining and use that to cover the exposed soft tissue. It does not concentrate pressure on places like the shell itself does, so it works wonders on things like fractured and crushed spires.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3. Make sure you don't touch the snail's soft tissue after you have mixed the putty with your hands. Flatten the putty ball out into a very very thin sheet (I try to get it so thin that it will tear if it goes thinner), put the egg lining over the exposed tissue, and put the epoxy sheet over that. Flatten it down. You will need to keep your hands moist but not wet while you do this, and make sure the shell is bone dry, otherwise the putty will either stick to you and not the shell or it won't stick to anything!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    4. Let the snail sit somewhere safe out of water for the cure time. Cure time on my putty is 1 hour, and I keep a direct eye on them for this time. After the time is up, I rinse them in a bowl of water to get any excess putty residue off and then plop them back in the tank. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5096 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We have never used Melafix
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/17/04 18:51:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If your other fish are tolerant of Melafix that will help them perk back up also.  They can handle a full dose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Terri, we bought some calcium stuff today hopefully it should start to work soon!..and i am going to try the shell repair on a few of the snails. The adult snail i mentioned that had the hole is still alive it sits there all day but this morning it was moving around. No clowns have attacked it the operculum seems very weak. so hopefully the calcium will work on that as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/17/04 00:26:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have never heard it bothering fish, I have pleco's (2 kinds), mollies, guppies, gourmis, kissing fish and something else I can't remember the name of and it doesn't bother them.  Even in the worst erosion pictures I have seen there have never been holes in the operculum, do you have a clown loach or anything like that in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is from the www.applesnail.net forum on repairing the shell:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. Get Marine Epoxy Putty from your local hardware store. It's in the glue section, and make sure it says it's putty so it is not liquid stuff. It comes in little tubes, the stuff I have is half green half white.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. break open a raw egg, gently rinse out the shell, and nuke it in the microwave for about 2 minutes. After that, here's what I prefer to do rather than using the straight hard shell: peel off large sections of the inner leathery lining and use that to cover the exposed soft tissue. It does not concentrate pressure on places like the shell itself does, so it works wonders on things like fractured and crushed spires.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3. Make sure you don't touch the snail's soft tissue after you have mixed the putty with your hands. Flatten the putty ball out into a very very thin sheet (I try to get it so thin that it will tear if it goes thinner), put the egg lining over the exposed tissue, and put the epoxy sheet over that. Flatten it down. You will need to keep your hands moist but not wet while you do this, and make sure the shell is bone dry, otherwise the putty will either stick to you and not the shell or it won't stick to anything!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    4. Let the snail sit somewhere safe out of water for the cure time. Cure time on my putty is 1 hour, and I keep a direct eye on them for this time. After the time is up, I rinse them in a bowl of water to get any excess putty residue off and then plop them back in the tank. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5097 From: CAROL Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Grieving Plecostomus - Advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My 8 year old 10" long african cichlid just passed away. He and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plecostomus (who is now approx. 18") were raised together as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    youngsters. The pleco. was VERY protective of the cichlid. I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    like your opinion on if I should get a new friend (s) for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    remaining pleco. If so, what kind of fish, and what "size" of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish. I feel bad that my pleco. is now alone - but of course, don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    want him to harm/kill any new fish in "his" tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have 3 fish tanks. One I have just spoken about. I have a second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    55 gallon aquarium with a mature gourami, Jack Dempsey, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plecostomus. I also have a 29 gallon aquarium with 3 common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    goldfish. Both 55 gallon aquariums have two power filters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I only have access to my work computer, and try to check the eMails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as often as I can. Thank you in advance for any advice you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    share.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    CAROL J and the bratty ratties
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Northern Michigan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5098 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just as i said before your numbers are magical! i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    personally went to work and bought a biowheel for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have been discussing. there is no way that a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    biowheel is 74 inches long. in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    right here with one in hand that is dismantled. onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    again this is for a 170. when fully stretched as far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    in2 per side. even giving you both sides that is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons! if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this size. a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    filled with bacteria that is 576 in2. i really don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    don't like it when people inflate things way out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    proportions to suite their claims. there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > said was a comparatively small one I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5099 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i tried lava as well, but make sure it is the man made
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    stuff for the aquariums, the natural that i used for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    substrate caused my ph to drop to 4 continuously.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The bio wheel I used as an example as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > said was a comparatively small one I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > as I said in an earlier post I do not condemn bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wheels or UGF's I was just pointing out that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there problems, and I think I said I much prefer the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > simple wet and dry with bio balls, I even use lava
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > rock in a lot of mine, cheep and very effective, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the filters are also cheep and easy to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > yourself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it all depends on what size tank that filter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > as i said in a previous post, the ugf for a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank is more than 200 square inches, not including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gravel which is used by the ugf, which is much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > than that. paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I just remembered I still had an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > from quite some time back so I just rooted it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > It is 2 3/4" in dia. (70mm) and when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > disassembled and opened out it is 74 3/4" long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (1.9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > meters) remember double sided how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > with a UGF ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > radzewicz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > for bacteria to live on. Now how does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > tucked into the externally hung filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > The biowheel notably exposes a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > and continues its cycle. Does this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > it to air for a few moments of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > the biowheel because of this air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > about the biowheel filter that describes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > the biowheel was designed to replace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > filter in a planted aquarium. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > bases, but is not as effective as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > some may think it works as well, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > paper thin and much smaller than teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > your tank. if you want plants, use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > biowheel. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > combination with the plants which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > filter, it is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinion on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > filters? Is this really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > an improvement over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > sponge-in-the-filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > box bio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5100 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    well stated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have just spent some time writing about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > UGF's only to have yahoo crash and swallow it up!,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > third time to day!!, so this time I will try to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Under Gravel Filter work fine if properly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > up, you should have a strong water flow up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > outlet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pipes by ether using a strong air flow to move a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of water up and out of the tubes not just bubbles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > power heads sucking the water up so you can visibly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > see the water flow within the tank, the water should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be circulating over the whole area below plate not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just in the corners around the uplift tubes, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fairly course gravel to allow circulation through it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over the whole of its area, if these conditions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > met then it should work fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the most common faults are using sand or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel as a substrate which in time restricts or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stops
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the water flow over most of the area, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > insufficient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > air and therefore very little flow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Both of these conditions can create deed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > areas bellow the plate which can then become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stagnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and probably anaerobic at which stage you have very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little if any biological filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > i have never seen, and do not personally know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > that has ever had a problem with a ugf, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > seems to be a lot of accusations flying here about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > them. i would assume however that you truly have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > anaerobic bacteria under that plate, and could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > problem if the tank leaves no escape for the gases
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > released.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Hmmm, toxins released from under the plates?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > a new one on me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Is this really something to worry about?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I have an UG filter installed in my tank under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > gravel, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > chose not to use it. So it just sits there under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > gravel with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > tube connectors capped off. Do I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > problem here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > yes, but they also don't have rot issues to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > released from under plates. no dead spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > areae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> Don't forget, it's not how thin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filtering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> tucked into the externally hung filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > considering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> and continues its cycle. Does this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> it to air for a few moments of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> the biowheel because of this air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> about the biowheel filter that describes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>> <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>> does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>>> some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5101 From: paul helms Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that is a huge differences, and you are correct....way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    over priced

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- bucks_boogie@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Just outside of Buffalo, Paul. As Amethea said,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there's a huge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > difference in price. Not a that much of a biggie,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > though. $10 vs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > $20-$30 for the ab vs the eb. Crayfish are just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that, over priced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > inverts. I remember paying 3 bucks US for some red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lobsters, full of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > parasites after about a week as it turned out, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > finding them alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on ice for about 27 cents a piece as food grade at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > local grocery store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > without the worms coming out of the joints.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Damaged and I like it. It made me what I am!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5102 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ammonia and Live Plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Am anxious to hear about breaking in the new aquarium w/ live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >plants. As I mentioned in my first post about this...using ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >w/ live plants just doesn't sound like a good plan to me!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >:~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb, you don't need to worry about the addition of ammonia hurting your plants, provided it is not a scented or sudsing type - ammonia is one of the ingredients of ordinary plant fertilizers, and this is the way I did my fishless cycle. (I added about a half capful of cheapo household ammonia, which I got in the grocery store for a little over a buck, once a day.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had read of using fish food, and figured since my aquarium kit came with a free sample of goldfish food I wasn't going to use, I would try that for my cycle. Phooey on that. I saw no ammonia readings on my test strips as a result from feeding my tank with fish food at all, even after two weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My cycle with household ammonia only took 18 days from start to finish. And in that time my plants, which started as bulbs, shot up and were even blooming - they will "feed" off of all of the stages of your nitrogen cycle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5103 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So do you add calcium and iodine to the water PLUS give snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bisquits/calcium chips?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Will adding the calcium/iodine harm live plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I bought a couple snails from you awhile back...They have been doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    great...but last week I noticed the blue one had a damaged spot on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    his shell...It looked like there was a thin layer of shell coming off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and in the middle of this small patch was a hole..no body exposed or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The other looks perfect and they both live in a 10 gallon with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pleco and a betta and live plants...They get snail bisquits, calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chips and algae wafers on alternating days, water changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    week...is this just shedding old shell and growing new? Should I be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    worried?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is the body exposed? If so let me know and I'll tell you how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    patch it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > aragonite sand and crushed coral. You can also add liquid calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > iodine to the water. 1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Marine Brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@f...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have holes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    deficiency. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5104 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What is your ph level?  It should be about 7.8.  Yes I do add the liquid calcium and iodine every day to my tanks. I also use a mix of crushed coral and aragonite sand for ph buffing and calcium. The shells don't shed.  Where is this happening at?  If it's on the front edge of the mantle (the snails left side if your looking at it) that could be from mating and that's normal.  If it's anywhere else on the shell it may be the beginning of erosion, or he could have bumped his shell on something in the tank.  If that's what happened it will start to turn a chalky white color at it repairs itself.  Can you post a picture?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So do you add calcium and iodine to the water PLUS give snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bisquits/calcium chips?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Will adding the calcium/iodine harm live plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I bought a couple snails from you awhile back...They have been doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    great...but last week I noticed the blue one had a damaged spot on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    his shell...It looked like there was a thin layer of shell coming off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and in the middle of this small patch was a hole..no body exposed or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The other looks perfect and they both live in a 10 gallon with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pleco and a betta and live plants...They get snail bisquits, calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chips and algae wafers on alternating days, water changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    week...is this just shedding old shell and growing new? Should I be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    worried?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5105 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Endler's Livebearers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What information can any of you give me on Endler's? I wanted new fish for my tank, since I was down to only one female dwarf gourami fry and five white clouds, and I chose these because they were said to like higher pH, hard water and warm temps, and the picture on the web site I found excited me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not at all disappointed with the colors, although mine seem to have dark bug-eyes that do not match the photo I saw. They seem to be very happy in their new home, and everyone is getting along very well, but I am curious as to whether they are juveniles or full grown, life expectancy, what treats they might prefer, and so forth. The 3 males are less than 1/2 inch long and the two largest females are less than 1 inch long (other two are significantly smaller and obviously juveniles) and they are all very slender. One site I found said they are "about half the size of fancy guppies". It has been too many years since I had guppies... but I remember them being much, much larger than these. If they are juveniles, how large might they get?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5106 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How big are those biowheels that cone in the wet dry filters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.marineland.com/products/consumer/con_tidepool.asp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5107 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ammonia and Live Plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Audrey...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Maybe less chance of rotting fish food, too! I don't want a stinky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquarium, and my hubby would KILL me!!! He's not too keen on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    idea of a 25 gallon tank, so I'm determined to make it work, and be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    BEAUTIFUL! I know you understand! So....you used half a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    capful...and I need to know what size aquarium you have. I spent a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    LONG time this afternoon rinsing the Flourite...MUCH more time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    consuming than I thought it would be, but from what I read, Flourite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is great. Time will tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Am anxious to hear about breaking in the new aquarium w/ live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >plants. As I mentioned in my first post about this...using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >w/ live plants just doesn't sound like a good plan to me!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >:~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb, you don't need to worry about the addition of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hurting your plants, provided it is not a scented or sudsing type -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia is one of the ingredients of ordinary plant fertilizers, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this is the way I did my fishless cycle. (I added about a half
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    capful of cheapo household ammonia, which I got in the grocery store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for a little over a buck, once a day.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had read of using fish food, and figured since my aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kit came with a free sample of goldfish food I wasn't going to use,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would try that for my cycle. Phooey on that. I saw no ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    readings on my test strips as a result from feeding my tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish food at all, even after two weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My cycle with household ammonia only took 18 days from start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to finish. And in that time my plants, which started as bulbs, shot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    up and were even blooming - they will "feed" off of all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    stages of your nitrogen cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5108 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do any of you have a favorite effective tool for planting in deep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water? I am curious what works for you when one of your plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    floats to the surface...which has happened to several of mine. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank is 20" deep, which isn't nearly as deep as some of yours, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sure...but I'd much rather have a nifty tool than to have to stick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my arms all the way into the tank to replant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for your time and patience with this newbie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5109 From: Patrick Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They make gloves for those kinds of things and can probably be found in a fish store.  There are also planting things made for aquariums, too.  I usually replant stuff during my weekly water changes when the water level is down to 2/3 of normal, but I still have to stick my hand in.  If this is the tank you have going through a cycle, you can take as much water as you have clean buckets and do the planting, then add the water back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do any of you have a favorite effective tool for planting in deep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water?  I am curious what works for you when one of your plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      floats to the surface...which has happened to several of mine.  My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank is 20" deep, which isn't nearly as deep as some of yours, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sure...but I'd much rather have a nifty tool than to have to stick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my arms all the way into the tank to replant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your time and patience with this newbie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5110 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Endler's Livebearers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, they are smaller than guppies, especially the male Endlers, mine look tiny compare to the females.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As far as their colors, I have had my Endler's in two different tanks with different lighting, each tank highlighted different colors. Beautiful little fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5111 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe you just have a dificulty with arithmetic so that you find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      multiplication process "magic"? I suppose it was to many people in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the Dark ages also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      First of all those so-called "magical numbers" as you call them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the post above yours were not my numbers but those of "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hampson" in post # 5076 and two other posts by Norman in this thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman stated that the total area of the biowheel media that he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      actually measured was 1345 square inches or thereabouts. That may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      magic to you but I'm willing to take his word for it. In a previous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      post the same Norman also made the claim that it was 74 or so inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      long. Again, more magic to you, but I believe him. And where I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      believe his I raised the question and he responded appropiately. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are very quick to add the solitious "well said" to Norman's post but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      apparently you either didn't read it or else you quickly forgot what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you read because its still there for all to see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      When I say that 1345 is 74 times two times nine that is only magic if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you can't complete a simple areal calculation, in which case you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doomed to have to take the word of the saleman for nealry everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The use of the phrase "marketing testimony" speaks for itself!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you have a legitimate argument with anything I have to ask or to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      say I'ld definately like to hear it, but please, don't expect me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to "dumb down" a discussion because it went over your head or you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      forgot what was being discussed, because its just so much easier for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you to not respond until it no longer seems like "MAGIC " to you! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      accept the fact that you might not agree with any conclusion I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      made but at least I explain myself and present my reasons, not "Oh I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      found it on the box!" or made otherwise closed minded kneejerk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      responces! Frankly, sir, you can take the childish sarcasim and shove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it where the sun doesn't shine, and if need be you can do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      MAGICALLY, if thats the best you have to offer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't expect a "well said".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Radzewicz


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > just as i said before your numbers are magical! i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > personally went to work and bought a biowheel for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have been discussing. there is no way that a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > biowheel is 74 inches long. in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > right here with one in hand that is dismantled. onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > again this is for a 170. when fully stretched as far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in2 per side. even giving you both sides that is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons! if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this size. a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filled with bacteria that is 576 in2. i really don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > don't like it when people inflate things way out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > proportions to suite their claims. there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > said was a comparatively small one I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5112 From: radzewicz@yahoo.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I used to have a set of extra long planting tongs 30 years ago but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they have long since disappeared. The ones I've seen in LPS recently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are nat hardly long enough for a 20 in tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Stan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Do any of you have a favorite effective tool for planting in deep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water? I am curious what works for you when one of your plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > floats to the surface...which has happened to several of mine. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank is 20" deep, which isn't nearly as deep as some of yours, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sure...but I'd much rather have a nifty tool than to have to stick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my arms all the way into the tank to replant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks for your time and patience with this newbie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5113 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my pH is about 7.2....adding the calcium liquid will bring it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Id hate to have to change the substrate in the tank...seems like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      difficult and messy task.. What else can I do to bring up pH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a pic posted in photos section (shell erosion is the name-it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has a nosey betta in teh shot too)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What is your ph level? It should be about 7.8. Yes I do add the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > calcium and iodine every day to my tanks. I also use a mix of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      crushed coral
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and aragonite sand for ph buffing and calcium. The shells don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shed. Where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is this happening at? If it's on the front edge of the mantle (the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > left side if your looking at it) that could be from mating and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > normal. If it's anywhere else on the shell it may be the beginning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > erosion, or he could have bumped his shell on something in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that's what happened it will start to turn a chalky white color at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > repairs itself. Can you post a picture?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      New
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > So do you add calcium and iodine to the water PLUS give snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bisquits/calcium chips?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Will adding the calcium/iodine harm live plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I bought a couple snails from you awhile back...They have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > great...but last week I noticed the blue one had a damaged spot on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > his shell...It looked like there was a thin layer of shell coming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and in the middle of this small patch was a hole..no body exposed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anything....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The other looks perfect and they both live in a 10 gallon with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pleco and a betta and live plants...They get snail bisquits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > chips and algae wafers on alternating days, water changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > week...is this just shedding old shell and growing new? Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > worried?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5114 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Protected Resources--Marine Species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      NOAA Fisheries: Office of Protected Resources [pdf]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/prot_res/index.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Created as a part of the NOAA Fisheries department, the Office of Protected
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Resources manages programs and policies that protect the marine life found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      within the waters surrounding the United States. Of great interest to most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      visitors will be the sections where they may learn about the endangered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      species themselves. Here visitors can learn about the various species, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      read reports to Congress on the recovery activities that have been taken
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      place under the auspices of the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Besides the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      numerous general information publications available on the site, there are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      number of technical and scholarly reports presented, including environmental
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      assessments on the effects of research on Stellar sea lions and scientific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      assessments of endangered population levels. The site is rounded out by a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      section that addresses the importance of coral reef and biodiversity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      conservation and features materials on the status of coral species and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      various diseases which affect these species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From The Scout Report, Copyright Internet Scout Project 1994-2003.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://scout.wisc.edu/.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5115 From: Beatrice1292@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: fast koi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Does anyone know how to capture a very fast large koi from a large pond full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of plants and hiding places? I need to medicate him, but he cannot be captured.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hayward, California
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5116 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For more information on apple snails go to www.applesnail.net

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      renee31477 <renee31477@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my pH is about 7.2....adding the calcium liquid will bring it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Id hate to have to change the substrate in the tank...seems like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      difficult and messy task.. What else can I do to bring up pH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a pic posted in photos section (shell erosion is the name-it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has a nosey betta in teh shot too)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What is your ph level?  It should be about 7.8.  Yes I do add the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > calcium and iodine every day to my tanks. I also use a mix of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      crushed coral
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and aragonite sand for ph buffing and calcium. The shells don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shed.  Where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is this happening at?  If it's on the front edge of the mantle (the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > left side if your looking at it) that could be from mating and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > normal.  If it's anywhere else on the shell it may be the beginning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > erosion, or he could have bumped his shell on something in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank.  If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that's what happened it will start to turn a chalky white color at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > repairs itself.  Can you post a picture?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      New
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   Terry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   So do you add calcium and iodine to the water PLUS give snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   bisquits/calcium chips?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   Will adding the calcium/iodine harm live plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   I bought a couple snails from you awhile back...They have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   great...but last week I noticed the blue one had a damaged spot on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   his shell...It looked like there was a thin layer of shell coming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   and in the middle of this small patch was a hole..no body exposed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   anything....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   The other looks perfect and they both live in a 10 gallon with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   pleco and a betta and live plants...They get snail bisquits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   chips and algae wafers on alternating days, water changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   week...is this just shedding old shell and growing new? Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   worried?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >   --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5117 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sounds like a good idea, Patrick. Thanks again for your wisdom.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe tomorrow I can replant the few that were stubborn today. Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just need to learn from Audrey what size her aquarium is that she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      used half a capful of ammonia with. I did put a bit of gravel and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      few stones from my 12 gallon Eclipse into the new one tonight, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it's a start anyway. The water is kind of white looking but, from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      what I'm reading, it should clear in a few days...? I need to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      PATIENT!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > They make gloves for those kinds of things and can probably be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      found in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a fish store. There are also planting things made for aquariums,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      too. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > usually replant stuff during my weekly water changes when the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water level is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > down to 2/3 of normal, but I still have to stick my hand in. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank you have going through a cycle, you can take as much water as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > clean buckets and do the planting, then add the water back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Do any of you have a favorite effective tool for planting in deep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water? I am curious what works for you when one of your plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > floats to the surface...which has happened to several of mine. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank is 20" deep, which isn't nearly as deep as some of yours, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sure...but I'd much rather have a nifty tool than to have to stick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my arms all the way into the tank to replant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks for your time and patience with this newbie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5118 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I see you have gravel in your tank.  I have gravel too, I had it before I found out about the benefits of coral and sand.  What I did was rinse the 2 new substrates very well, mix them and then used a cup to lower it to the bottom of the tank before gently swishing it out.  It mixes right into the gravel without any problems.  If you don't want to do this I used baking soda before I added the new substrate.  That is harder though because there aren't exact doses to follow and what worked for me could be too much for your tank or not enough.  I added a pinch to my 10 and 20 gal tanks and 2 pinches to my 40 and 50's, very scientific I know!! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Texas Holey Rock or limestone will also raise the levels, those you would just sit in.  They sell it for cichlid tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The picture under my name has gravel/coral mixed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Others here may have tips for raising the ph.  Calcium will not affect your ph, liquid iodine hardens the shell which would help too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope some of this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my pH is about 7.2....adding the calcium liquid will bring it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Id hate to have to change the substrate in the tank...seems like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      difficult and messy task.. What else can I do to bring up pH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a pic posted in photos section (shell erosion is the name-it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has a nosey betta in teh shot too)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5119 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So you just added sand/crushed coral to the gravel? Did you take any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel out??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I see you have gravel in your tank. I have gravel too, I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > found out about the benefits of coral and sand. What I did was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      rinse the 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > new substrates very well, mix them and then used a cup to lower it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bottom of the tank before gently swishing it out. It mixes right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel without any problems. If you don't want to do this I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      baking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > soda before I added the new substrate. That is harder though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      because there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aren't exact doses to follow and what worked for me could be too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      much for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > your tank or not enough. I added a pinch to my 10 and 20 gal tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pinches to my 40 and 50's, very scientific I know!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Texas Holey Rock or limestone will also raise the levels, those you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > just sit in. They sell it for cichlid tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The picture under my name has gravel/coral mixed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Others here may have tips for raising the ph. Calcium will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      affect your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ph, liquid iodine hardens the shell which would help too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I hope some of this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      New
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my pH is about 7.2....adding the calcium liquid will bring it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Id hate to have to change the substrate in the tank...seems like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > difficult and messy task.. What else can I do to bring up pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > There is a pic posted in photos section (shell erosion is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      name-it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has a nosey betta in teh shot too)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5120 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have never been able to see that pic under your name...I dont know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      why

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can look at your website for pics of your tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Terry... I hate to have this little guy get damaged like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this...they were doing so well :( I dont know what happened...maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      he bumped himself on the pot in there...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I see you have gravel in your tank. I have gravel too, I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > found out about the benefits of coral and sand. What I did was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      rinse the 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > new substrates very well, mix them and then used a cup to lower it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bottom of the tank before gently swishing it out. It mixes right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel without any problems. If you don't want to do this I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      baking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > soda before I added the new substrate. That is harder though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      because there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aren't exact doses to follow and what worked for me could be too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      much for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > your tank or not enough. I added a pinch to my 10 and 20 gal tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pinches to my 40 and 50's, very scientific I know!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Texas Holey Rock or limestone will also raise the levels, those you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > just sit in. They sell it for cichlid tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The picture under my name has gravel/coral mixed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Others here may have tips for raising the ph. Calcium will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      affect your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ph, liquid iodine hardens the shell which would help too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I hope some of this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      New
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my pH is about 7.2....adding the calcium liquid will bring it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Id hate to have to change the substrate in the tank...seems like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > difficult and messy task.. What else can I do to bring up pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > There is a pic posted in photos section (shell erosion is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      name-it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has a nosey betta in teh shot too)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5121 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Here's a direct link.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No I didn't take any of the other gravel out.  Only use crushed coral if you have a ugf, should have said that earlier!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So you just added sand/crushed coral to the gravel? Did you take any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel out??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5122 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails-substrate change out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If I can just add some aragonite sand/coral...then I will do that..I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      was thinking that I had to change it all out with the gravel....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just went to go look to see if the yellow one had any similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      damage to his/her shell...doesnt seem to be any, but cant see too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well since yellow is hiding behind the pot...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The blue one is "riding" the air bubbles from the air stone...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      its cute they both do it-they get on top of the air stone,create big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bubbles and bounce up and down like they are one of those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bubble/decorative accessories

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so he doesnt seem to be in any distress at least...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has anyone done this before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I see you have gravel in your tank. I have gravel too, I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > found out about the benefits of coral and sand. What I did was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      rinse the 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > new substrates very well, mix them and then used a cup to lower it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bottom of the tank before gently swishing it out. It mixes right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel without any problems. If you don't want to do this I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      baking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > soda before I added the new substrate. That is harder though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      because there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aren't exact doses to follow and what worked for me could be too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      much for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > your tank or not enough. I added a pinch to my 10 and 20 gal tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pinches to my 40 and 50's, very scientific I know!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Texas Holey Rock or limestone will also raise the levels, those you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > just sit in. They sell it for cichlid tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The picture under my name has gravel/coral mixed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Others here may have tips for raising the ph. Calcium will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      affect your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ph, liquid iodine hardens the shell which would help too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I hope some of this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      New
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my pH is about 7.2....adding the calcium liquid will bring it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Id hate to have to change the substrate in the tank...seems like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > difficult and messy task.. What else can I do to bring up pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > There is a pic posted in photos section (shell erosion is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      name-it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has a nosey betta in teh shot too)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5123 From: renee31477 Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      no I got a sponge filter...so how do you vacuum the gravel/sand/coral
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mix??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      action=view¤t=purplefa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > celightpurple.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Here's a direct link.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > No I didn't take any of the other gravel out. Only use crushed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      coral if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a ugf, should have said that earlier!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      New
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > So you just added sand/crushed coral to the gravel? Did you take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel out??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5124 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails-substrate change out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mine love to play in the bubble bars to, it's so funny to see this baseball size snail (cana) floating around like a feather!  I like it when they hold onto the bar and won't let go, it's like they are sitting in a Jacuzzi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails-substrate change out

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If I can just add some aragonite sand/coral...then I will do that..I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      was thinking that I had to change it all out with the gravel....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just went to go look to see if the yellow one had any similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      damage to his/her shell...doesnt seem to be any, but cant see too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well since yellow is hiding behind the pot...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The blue one is "riding" the air bubbles from the air stone...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5125 From: bryants4god Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      same as regular gravel, the sand drops right back down the tube.  crushed coral is the same consistency and regular gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Rainbow Snails.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      no I got a sponge filter...so how do you vacuum the gravel/sand/coral
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mix??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      action=view&current=purplefa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > celightpurple.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5126 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 9/17/2004 5:07:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Deenerz@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How big are those biowheels that cone in the wet dry filters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.marineland.com/products/consumer/con_tidepool.asp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess I need to proof read what I type.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I meant to ask how big are those biowheels on the wet/dry filters that Marineland sells?  As in square inches of surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I realize they are not the hang on the back power filters being discussed, but was wondering about the large biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5127 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: fast koi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 9/17/2004 9:23:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Beatrice1292@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Does anyone know how to capture a very fast large koi from a large pond full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of plants and hiding places? I need to medicate him, but he cannot be captured.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hayward, California
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hmmm?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      More than one net?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Can you get a couple more nets and helpers to help you corral him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just out of curiosity, what does he need to medication for?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5128 From: Jason Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 1 Fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In my community tank which includes one male, and two female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      swordtail purchased about a month ago there mysteriously appeared a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      single swordtail fry. Neither female had a dark spot, nor displayed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any typical birthing female behavoir. They have both remained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      active, and have not dispalyed any change in size. Has anyone had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      single fry birthing? This guy seemed rather large too, I've had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      swordtail birth's before, and the fry were a lot smaller. I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      maybe there were more fry, but this one was just swimming around in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      plain view and the there were others, it should have been eaten with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the rest. I was just wondering if anyone has had one swordtail fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      just appear in their tank. It was just strange. Last time I had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      swordtail birth, I gathered 6 over three days and with my guppies I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      got 14 over a week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I joke that it came from my guppy, who just had about 14 fry the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      previous week, maybe I'm the first owner of a Swordguppy. Anyways,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the swordtail fry is doing fine, he's in my grow out tank with all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the guppy fry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      50 Gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Male, 2 female swordtail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 male, 1 female fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3 zebra danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 10 inch pletco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 red finned cigar sharks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5129 From: Jason Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Speaking of red finned cigar sharks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone have any? I'm thinking of trading them in for store credit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they do get rather large. Mine are still pretty young, will they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      eat my community tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      jason
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5130 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One cannot calculate the useable surface area of a gravel bed or a biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter or for that matter, any filter medium for bacterial purposes. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are you guys getting at? 1sq inch of lava rock gravel will have 1000 times
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      more useable surface area for bacteria then standard pea gravel will..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      similarly,  for biowheels and other filter media, a lot depends on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      porous nature and the uneven surfaces of the media rather then just opening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the length of the foam material and calculating this way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: radzewicz@... [mailto:radzewicz@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 17 September 2004 12:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>               The bio wheel I used as an example as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> said was a comparatively       small one I used it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me, 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5131 From: ben olds Date: 9/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: fast koi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How about a throw net. The kind fisherman use to catch bait fish.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Have a great day!  Ben... 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5132 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gosh there is a tool i had no clue i am so sick of getting my entire body wet planting and replanting... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do any of you have a favorite effective tool for planting in deep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water?  I am curious what works for you when one of your plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      floats to the surface...which has happened to several of mine.  My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank is 20" deep, which isn't nearly as deep as some of yours, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sure...but I'd much rather have a nifty tool than to have to stick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my arms all the way into the tank to replant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your time and patience with this newbie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5133 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i do that stuff to but then when i readd the water back in the plants get more messed up... i so cant win lol shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They make gloves for those kinds of things and can probably be found in a fish store.  There are also planting things made for aquariums, too.  I usually replant stuff during my weekly water changes when the water level is down to 2/3 of normal, but I still have to stick my hand in.  If this is the tank you have going through a cycle, you can take as much water as you have clean buckets and do the planting, then add the water back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5134 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: back from vacation and have a couple questions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well as i posted about amonth about about my then upcoming vacation I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      returned and things went well with this fish I can see some over feeeding but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not too bad.... but on my bleeding heart tetras the top fins seem to have some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      black spots.. and the fish th emselves seem to be hinding a lot and are darker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      than ususal... so anyone know what that issue might be about.... or what to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do... my plants are not doing so well but i did order the flourish excel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      added it tonight so i hope that will help in that area it says to keep adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      every day do i really need to add it that often... and another qustion i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is one of my rasboro tetras i guess looks preggo my mom says it has looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bluky for like a week i have had them since november there are two and never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      them like this... do you t hinkshe is preggo... she looks like she is giogn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to explode... thanks for any help anyone has... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5135 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks (Joel)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have read allot of places that it is a good idea to a very small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >amount of seasalt at every water change to a freash water tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >aquarium.  It helps keep teh Plattes and Mollies healthy??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I use aquarium salt in my freshwater tank, and I have only platies and mollies. The mollies really enjoy the salt in the water ... and the platies seem to be doing well also. The general recommendation for a freshwater tank is 1 tablespoons for each 5 gallons of water. I choose to add a little bit more than that for my tank, about a teaspoon or so in addition to the package recommendations. It is supposed to improve their gill and bladder function. It also helps to keep the mollies from getting fungus ... which is a big problem for black mollies specifically.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live Journal icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5136 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can't add the iodine to my tanks as i am highly allergic to it  will that make any difference? Now i am adding the calcium. The calcium i have is Reef Success by red sea,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Will try and get some photos of  a few of the snails uploaded soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thought we would tell you all that we have some new additions to our 100 litre. Loads of new plants and 2 firemouths. I used to keep them and couldn't bare it no more we have had this tank running about a year now and had to get some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/17/04 23:45:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What is your ph level?  It should be about 7.8.  Yes I do add the liquid calcium and iodine every day to my tanks. I also use a mix of crushed coral and aragonite sand for ph buffing and calcium. The shells don't shed.  Where is this happening at?  If it's on the front edge of the mantle (the snails left side if your looking at it) that could be from mating and that's normal.  If it's anywhere else on the shell it may be the beginning of erosion, or he could have bumped his shell on something in the tank.  If that's what happened it will start to turn a chalky white color at it repairs itself.  Can you post a picture?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: renee31477 [mailto:renee31477@yahoo.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So do you add calcium and iodine to the water PLUS give snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bisquits/calcium chips?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Will adding the calcium/iodine harm live plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I bought a couple snails from you awhile back...They have been doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        great...but last week I noticed the blue one had a damaged spot on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        his shell...It looked like there was a thin layer of shell coming off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and in the middle of this small patch was a hole..no body exposed or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The other looks perfect and they both live in a 10 gallon with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pleco and a betta and live plants...They get snail bisquits, calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chips and algae wafers on alternating days, water changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        week...is this just shedding old shell and growing new? Should I be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        worried?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5137 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 397
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Has anyone had a single fry birthing?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My red wag platies only had one fry ... either that was the only one to escape being eaten, or that was the only one born. Also my Mickey Mouse platie has one fry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I read somewhere that as livebearers age, the number of fry born each time will increase, but I forget where I read it. Might just be hearsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's possible that the other swordtail fry were eaten ... it's also possible that the mother of that fry was young enough that the fry you saw was the only one born. It's larger size is probably due to the fact that it was well hidden until it deemed it safe to come out and swim amongst the adults. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live Journal icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5138 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 397
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes we have 3 very fat females, and have had 1 baby about once a week, we have 3 babies at the moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/18/04 09:40:42
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 397
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Has anyone had a single fry birthing?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My red wag platies only had one fry ... either that was the only one to escape being eaten, or that was the only one born. Also my Mickey Mouse platie has one fry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I read somewhere that as livebearers age, the number of fry born each time will increase, but I forget where I read it. Might just be hearsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's possible that the other swordtail fry were eaten ... it's also possible that the mother of that fry was young enough that the fry you saw was the only one born. It's larger size is probably due to the fact that it was well hidden until it deemed it safe to come out and swim amongst the adults. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live Journal icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5139 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You are a hard man to convince, I also am sat here with the bio wheel in pieces by my side, so I will give you the full details of its construction, the core is a plastic tube cast/moulded like a series of round washers each with four legs, each washer is 0.1875" thick and the legs are 0.1875" long, the wall thickness is 0.125", the diameter of the tube is 1.3125" and the length is 9", this has the pleated material raped around it, each pleat is 9"x 1.25" and there are 60 pleats in a dia of 2.625", the material is a kind of stiff woven cloth/paper rated at 50 microns, there is a plastic end cap on each end with a 1.0625" Central hole which fits a standard 0.75" plastic plumbing pipe and revolves freely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The filters themselves were made by me in small batches, the wheels or to give them there correct name cartridges were bought in from a local water filtration company, they were of American origin I believe, I had two makes both identical, the one I have is stamped ' AMETEK ' I seem to recollect the other was called 'KUNO'.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     At the time I was making these there were bio wheel filters on the market with huge wheel probably three or four times the surface area of mine, and also huge prices (some were around 14" dia.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     So there you have it paul.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        '
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just as i said before your numbers are magical!  i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        personally went to work and bought a biowheel for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have been discussing.  there is no way that a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        biowheel is 74 inches long.  in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right here with one in hand that is dismantled. onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        again this is for a 170.  when fully stretched as far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in2 per side.  even giving you both sides that is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons!  if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this size.  a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filled with bacteria that is 576 in2.  i really don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't like it when people inflate things way out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        proportions to suite their claims.  there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you.  if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >               The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > said was a comparatively       small one I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5140 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just thought, the filters I am referring to are fairly large usually used in sumps on large tanks, though I probably confused you when I said I used one of mine on a 15G, I did it was easier than making a small one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just as i said before your numbers are magical!  i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        personally went to work and bought a biowheel for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have been discussing.  there is no way that a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        biowheel is 74 inches long.  in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right here with one in hand that is dismantled. onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        again this is for a 170.  when fully stretched as far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in2 per side.  even giving you both sides that is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons!  if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this size.  a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filled with bacteria that is 576 in2.  i really don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't like it when people inflate things way out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        proportions to suite their claims.  there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you.  if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >               The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > said was a comparatively       small one I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5141 From: Tom Reagin Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: advantages of bio wheel filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have tanks with both biowheel and non biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filtration. It seems that the tanks with biowheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can take overstocking the tank and still maintain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        adequate reduction of ammonia to nitrAte. It also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seems that these tanks accept an increase of bioload
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        without having to "mini cycle." They do seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        increase nitrAte at a faster rate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I speculate that there advantage lies in the large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surface area with a small footprint and exposure of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the aerobic bacteria to atmospheric O2. I believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that the ratio of available aerobic bacteria to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anerobic bacteria is greater and may be responsible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (in addition to the acceptance of a heavier bioload)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that accounts for the more rapid rise in NitrAtes. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plants help with the NitrAtes as well as water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I were to buy another filter today, it would be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good canister (affordability is an issue) or an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Emperor. I DEFINATELY prefer the Emperors over the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Penguins (I have both.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As I am not an expert, I will accept any corrections
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to my ideas.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yours


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        TomR

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thomas G. Reagin, O.D.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        104 Church Street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Decatur, GA 30030

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Voice (404)378-3694
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fax (404)373-0741



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5142 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim I'll try this again, yahoo ate the last one again!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would suggest if you wish to comment on a post you should read and understand the whole thread!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Any way to give you an answer, UGF's yes is very difficult to calculate,also the governing factor is the flow through the bed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bio wheels, very easy to calculate as I have already shown, Bio wheels are not normally foam, they usually consist of a porous woven type material pleated and formed in a circle with some form of pivot on each end, the water is introduced to the wheel waterfall fashion this induces the wheel to revolve, within reason the water flow rate does not matter (provided it's not to slow) as the wheel will revolve at a speed to suit the rate of flow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Sponge or foam filters behave in a similar manner to UGF's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   It must be remembered that if you have no ammonia or nitrite in your tank i.e. no bio load, then you will have no aerobic bacteria, the bacteria only colonise the filter media in sufficient numbers to consume the available ammonia produced by your bio load,  no food = starvation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As I said Nim to properly understand the posts read the thread from the start.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        One cannot calculate the useable surface area of a gravel bed or a biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter or for that matter, any filter medium for bacterial purposes. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are you guys getting at? 1sq inch of lava rock gravel will have 1000 times
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more useable surface area for bacteria then standard pea gravel will..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        similarly,  for biowheels and other filter media, a lot depends on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        porous nature and the uneven surfaces of the media rather then just opening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the length of the foam material and calculating this way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: radzewicz@... [mailto:radzewicz@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 17 September 2004 12:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>               The bio wheel I used as an example as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> said was a comparatively       small one I used it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said it was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to me, 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5143 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb, my tank was only ten gallons, but I don't know if you want to measure your ammonia by capfuls, though, since different brands may have different size caps. That just happened to be all that I had at the time, since I was just starting out. It appeared to be about 5 mL. I had a test kit for ammonia, and a recommendation from someone's web article to add enough to get a reading of "between 2 and 5 ppm" and then add that same amount each day to every two days, and she also had a note that it would be "trial and error" because different brands have different concentrations. I just got lucky, in that I added a capful (had to double check my notes) and it hit 2 ppm on the nose. I tested every day before adding my new dose, and noted the levels, and reduced it to a half capful when my nitrites got up to about 3 ppm. Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5144 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My answer is No. :)  I don't have a biowheel, I have bio plants, you know, green things that take in nitrogen compounds and release O2.  I use a regular power filter as a backup, but the plants do most of the biofiltering.  I seriously doubt there is a biowheel made for a 29 gallon tank that can be a planted 29 gallon tank.  Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.  As far as biowheel vs. ugf, I think they would both work fine.  This isn't a new debate.  When I first started my research into aquarium keeping a little less than 3 years ago I read the same kinds of debates between biowheels, ugf's and other filters.  My conclusion was and still is that if it works for you, use it.  If it works for them, let them use it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5145 From: bryants4god Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The calcium will help.  Iodine is a new thing for snail keepers so not a lot of people are using it yet, you can have good shells without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          What are fire mouths?  (fish I am guessing?)  I am not a great fish keeper as you can tell!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5146 From: Beatrice1292@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 9/18/04 1:22:26 AM, agentscullyeyore@... writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          << gosh there is a tool i had no clue i am so sick of getting my entire body
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          planting and replanting... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do any of you have a favorite effective tool for planting in deep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water? I am curious what works for you when one of your plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          floats to the surface...which has happened to several of mine. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank is 20" deep, which isn't nearly as deep as some of yours, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sure...but I'd much rather have a nifty tool than to have to stick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my arms all the way into the tank to replant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for your time and patience with this newbie!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb >>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, I have a koi pond so I have two wetsuits to keep me dry. You could try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5147 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3 ppm.  Keep track of how much it takes to get there.  You will have to do a lot of testing to find out.  Start with about 1/4 cup for 10 gallons and see what you get.  I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5148 From: red-eye Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Speaking of red finned cigar sharks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had two.One chased the other for the 4-5 months I had them. Then one day I realized only one was left. Great looking fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jason <thewahlrus@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Anyone have any? I'm thinking of trading them in for store credit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they do get rather large. Mine are still pretty young, will they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            eat my community tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            jason



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5149 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Favorite low/med light plant...??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'd love to hear what your favorite low to med light plants are...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Please state WHY it's your fave, and the height of the plant, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            THANKS!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5150 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Favorite low/med light plant...??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Amazon sword.  I don't know how much light the really need, but it is doing well in my low light tank.  I like it because of the way it looks, but I hear they get very large, so I might not like it forever.  For now it looks nice though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'd love to hear what your favorite low to med light plants are...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please state WHY it's your fave, and the height of the plant, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              THANKS!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5151 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Favorite low/med light plant...??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              if you don't want the amazon to grow too tall, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it won't in low light, trim the roots to 2 inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              every 3-4 months, and it will get bushier instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              taller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Amazon sword. I don't know how much light the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > really need, but it is doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > well in my low light tank. I like it because of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > way it looks, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hear they get very large, so I might not like it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > forever. For now it looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nice though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > please tell me and provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I'd love to hear what your favorite low to med light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plants are...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Please state WHY it's your fave, and the height of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the plant, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > THANKS!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5152 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              well said patrick.....p.s. i was not trying to state
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that biowheels are bad, just don't like inaccurate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              claims that can be proven wrong easily with a tape
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              measure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > My answer is No. :) I don't have a biowheel, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have bio plants, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > know, green things that take in nitrogen compounds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and release O2. I use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > regular power filter as a backup, but the plants do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > most of the biofiltering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I seriously doubt there is a biowheel made for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank that can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > be a planted 29 gallon tank. Just my opinion, feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > free to disagree. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > far as biowheel vs. ugf, I think they would both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > work fine. This isn't a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > new debate. When I first started my research into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > aquarium keeping a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > less than 3 years ago I read the same kinds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > debates between biowheels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ugf's and other filters. My conclusion was and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > still is that if it works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for you, use it. If it works for them, let them use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > please tell me and provide a citation.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5153 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: advantages of bio wheel filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              opinions are exactly what everyone here wants to hear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i happen to agree with you that cannisters are great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but a bit pricey. the main thing is that if you make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a claim as fact, you have to be able to back it up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              opinions are what make sthis group great, especially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              when they vary from one anoter and give peopole many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              options in dealing with problems. keep posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Tom Reagin <tgreagin@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have tanks with both biowheel and non biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filtration. It seems that the tanks with biowheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > can take overstocking the tank and still maintain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > adequate reduction of ammonia to nitrAte. It also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > seems that these tanks accept an increase of bioload
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > without having to "mini cycle." They do seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > increase nitrAte at a faster rate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I speculate that there advantage lies in the large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > surface area with a small footprint and exposure of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the aerobic bacteria to atmospheric O2. I believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that the ratio of available aerobic bacteria to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > anerobic bacteria is greater and may be responsible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (in addition to the acceptance of a heavier bioload)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that accounts for the more rapid rise in NitrAtes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plants help with the NitrAtes as well as water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If I were to buy another filter today, it would be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > good canister (affordability is an issue) or an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Emperor. I DEFINATELY prefer the Emperors over the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Penguins (I have both.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > As I am not an expert, I will accept any corrections
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to my ideas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Yours
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > TomR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thomas G. Reagin, O.D.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 104 Church Street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Decatur, GA 30030
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Voice (404)378-3694
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Fax (404)373-0741
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5154 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it's all good, just make sure that when you are making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              comparisons that it is "apples to apples and oranges
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to oranges".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I just thought, the filters I am referring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to are fairly large usually used in sumps on large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tanks, though I probably confused you when I said I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > used one of mine on a 15G, I did it was easier than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > making a small one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:just as i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > said before your numbers are magical! i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > personally went to work and bought a biowheel for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have been discussing. there is no way that a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > biowheel is 74 inches long. in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > right here with one in hand that is dismantled. onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > again this is for a 170. when fully stretched as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in2 per side. even giving you both sides that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons! if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > this size. a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filled with bacteria that is 576 in2. i really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't like it when people inflate things way out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > proportions to suite their claims. there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > said was a comparatively small one I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5155 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exactly as i thought. these are not market available
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filters, they are something atht you created or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              adapted for your use. in this cas eyou can't compare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              what you have created to what is available at a lfs or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lps. one can always make a bigger better filtration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              system at home with the time, ingenuity, and smarts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sounds like you built a great one, and with that much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              surface area i am sure it does blow a ugf out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water, but when comparing what is on the market for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              comprable size, the ugf;s bio bed is much larger. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is all in the manner that you use the filtration as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you pointed out. an airline may cause dead spots if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              only usiong the sides. for my fresh water i use the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ugf with four uplift tubes and am running the optima
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              air pump on there, in addition to live plants. that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is it. i also am ruuning a penguin 125 in as well as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fluval 104 on my 7 gallon reef. it is all in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              setup. any filtration system with a proper bioload
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              can keep a tank healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              your sounds awesome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > You are a hard man to convince, I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > am sat here with the bio wheel in pieces by my side,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > so I will give you the full details of its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > construction, the core is a plastic tube
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cast/moulded like a series of round washers each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with four legs, each washer is 0.1875" thick and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > legs are 0.1875" long, the wall thickness is 0.125",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the diameter of the tube is 1.3125" and the length
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is 9", this has the pleated material raped around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it, each pleat is 9"x 1.25" and there are 60 pleats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in a dia of 2.625", the material is a kind of stiff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > woven cloth/paper rated at 50 microns, there is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plastic end cap on each end with a 1.0625" Central
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hole which fits a standard 0.75" plastic plumbing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > pipe and revolves freely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The filters themselves were made by me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in small batches, the wheels or to give them there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > correct name cartridges were bought in from a local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water filtration company, they were of American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > origin I believe, I had two makes both identical,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the one I have is stamped ' AMETEK ' I seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recollect the other was called 'KUNO'.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > At the time I was making these there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > were bio wheel filters on the market with huge wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > probably three or four times the surface area of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > mine, and also huge prices (some were around 14"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dia.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > So there you have it paul.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > '
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:just as i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > said before your numbers are magical! i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > personally went to work and bought a biowheel for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have been discussing. there is no way that a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > biowheel is 74 inches long. in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > right here with one in hand that is dismantled. onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > again this is for a 170. when fully stretched as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in2 per side. even giving you both sides that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons! if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > this size. a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filled with bacteria that is 576 in2. i really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't like it when people inflate things way out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > proportions to suite their claims. there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- radzewicz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > The bio wheel I used as an example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > said was a comparatively small one I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5156 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: fast koi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 or 3 large nets to corner him

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > In a message dated 9/17/2004 9:23:12 PM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Beatrice1292@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Does anyone know how to capture a very fast large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > koi from a large pond full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of plants and hiding places? I need to medicate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > him, but he cannot be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > captured.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hayward, California
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hmmm?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > More than one net?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Can you get a couple more nets and helpers to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you corral him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Just out of curiosity, what does he need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > medication for?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5157 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the numbers were "magical" because they do not exist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in the common market. if you will read all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts you will find that the biowheel that he has is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              one that he created and is not what would be on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10-15 gallon tank. it is 60 inches longer than you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will find anywhere in a filter with a biowheel on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i have no problem with math at all, in fact i use it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              daily, they numbers were just extremely inflated. fo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              rthe converstaion that we were having. the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for a 50 gallon tank is only 17 1/2 inches long and 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1/8 wide, no where near what was being claimed for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              15 gallon tank. if i think a post is well written and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              want to tell the author so, i will.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- radzewicz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Maybe you just have a dificulty with arithmetic so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that you find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > multiplication process "magic"? I suppose it was to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > many people in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the Dark ages also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > First of all those so-called "magical numbers" as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you call them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the post above yours were not my numbers but those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hampson" in post # 5076 and two other posts by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Norman in this thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Norman stated that the total area of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > media that he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > actually measured was 1345 square inches or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thereabouts. That may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > magic to you but I'm willing to take his word for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it. In a previous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > post the same Norman also made the claim that it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 74 or so inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > long. Again, more magic to you, but I believe him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > And where I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > believe his I raised the question and he responded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > appropiately. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are very quick to add the solitious "well said" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Norman's post but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > apparently you either didn't read it or else you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > quickly forgot what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you read because its still there for all to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > When I say that 1345 is 74 times two times nine that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is only magic if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you can't complete a simple areal calculation, in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > which case you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > doomed to have to take the word of the saleman for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nealry everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The use of the phrase "marketing testimony" speaks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for itself!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If you have a legitimate argument with anything I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have to ask or to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > say I'ld definately like to hear it, but please,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't expect me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to "dumb down" a discussion because it went over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > your head or you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > forgot what was being discussed, because its just so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > much easier for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you to not respond until it no longer seems like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "MAGIC " to you! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > accept the fact that you might not agree with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > conclusion I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > made but at least I explain myself and present my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > reasons, not "Oh I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > found it on the box!" or made otherwise closed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > minded kneejerk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > responces! Frankly, sir, you can take the childish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > sarcasim and shove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it where the sun doesn't shine, and if need be you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > can do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > MAGICALLY, if thats the best you have to offer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I don't expect a "well said".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Radzewicz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > just as i said before your numbers are magical! i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > personally went to work and bought a biowheel for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > penguin 170 which is far larger than the mini that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > have been discussing. there is no way that a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > biowheel is 74 inches long. in fact i am sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > right here with one in hand that is dismantled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > onc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > again this is for a 170. when fully stretched as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > as it will go, it is a mere 17 1/2 inches long and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 1/8 inches wide which yields at the maximum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 72.1875
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > in2 per side. even giving you both sides that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 144 square inches, and that is on a 170 which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > designed for for tankms up to 50 gallons! if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > to compare apples to apples we can equate the ugf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > this size. a ugf filter for a 50-60 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > 48X12 even leaving out the thickness of the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filled with bacteria that is 576 in2. i really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > dislike the biowheels as i have said before, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > don't like it when people inflate things way out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > proportions to suite their claims. there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > biowheel that is 74 inches long, hate to tell you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > you still insist that there is, send me the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > manufacturers information and i will contact them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > personally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- radzewicz@y... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > "Norman. S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Hampson." <normnam2000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Hi again Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > The bio wheel I used as an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > said was a comparatively small one I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > a 15G tank, it's usable area is 1,345.5 square
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > 1345 sq inches seems a bit high, I think you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > was 74 long, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > sided so, 74 long x 9 wide x 2 sides =~ 1345.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > 9 inches wide doesn't seem like a small wheel to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > 2.5 inches does.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5158 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exactly, these wheels are not what you find in the lps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pr lfs, they are for in sump.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > How big are those biowheels that cone in the wet dry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.marineland.com/products/consumer/con_tidepool.asp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5159 From: paul helms Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              those are probably closer to what was being talked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about before, but still won't be 6 feet long when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              extended. i'll ask my marineland rep.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > In a message dated 9/17/2004 5:07:37 PM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Deenerz@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > How big are those biowheels that cone in the wet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dry filters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.marineland.com/products/consumer/con_tidepool.asp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Guess I need to proof read what I type.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I meant to ask how big are those biowheels on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wet/dry filters that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Marineland sells? As in square inches of surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I realize they are not the hang on the back power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filters being discussed,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but was wondering about the large biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5160 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i'm not sure i understand what you're saying there. you don't think you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              can use a biowheel with a planted 29 gallon tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Sep 18, 2004, at 3:04 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> I seriously doubt there is a biowheel made for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> 29 gallon tank that can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> be a planted 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5161 From: Kristen Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Hi...I'm new with some questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hey, everyone!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My name's kristen, and I just joined your group! I just started a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              small aquarium (only a five gallon) and I'm ALREADY experiencing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problems. Wondering if I could get some helpful advice to help save
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Like I said, its a five gallon tank. I have two goldfish and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little algae eater in there. I had the tank up and running for 24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hours before I added the fish. I used a water conditioner. I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the fish. They were good for maybe a day, then they started being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lethargic and sitting at the bottom of the tank. Well, now they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ick and I think ammonia poisioning. I started the Ick treatment and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the ammonia treatment yesterday, but they dont seem to be doing any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              better. Today I did a 25% water change, and re-treated the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but i think that the man at Petsmart didnt inform me very well, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              just sold me a bunch of junk. I love all animals, and dont like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              watch these fish suffer...is there ANYTHING that I can do to save
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks in advance...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              _Kristen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5162 From: Steve Szabo Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. sponge filters;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. bio-wheel attachments; and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3. Undergravel filters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The main topic seems to be ammonia and nitrite removal and which do the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The definitive answer that everyone seems to be looking for is -- "It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              depends".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All three methods are good, and have their place in the scheme of things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Let us remember that even in a tank without any sort of filtration the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrosomonas and nitrobacter will grow. They may not do a real good job of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              converting nitrogenous waste into another form, but they are there. The idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              behind each of these types of filtration is to help promote the growth and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              increase the efficiency of the bacteria. Each can accomplish the job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              One thing we must all remember is that the aquarium is a closed system. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              such, in order to mimic an open system, i.e. the streams, rivers, ponds, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lakes that our fish come from, they need some form of help. This help comes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in the form of filtration and regular water changes. We are also hampered in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that our aquariums are overstocked by any criteria when compared to an open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              system. Try this. Go sit out on the bank of a body of water. Visualize the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              size of your tank. Place it into the water, and see how many fish are in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              there (no fair sitting out at the koi pond!)? If you are lucky, you may see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              one or two, but, most likely you will see none. How many fish do you have in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              your tank, the one you visualized? Probably plenty. In both your tank and in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the wild, the fish are producing ammonia. In the open system there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrosomonas and nitrobacter present that can utilize this waste. Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              these fish are experiencing a constant water change, so the bad stuff is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              continuously getting flushed away. This does not happen in a tank, so we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have to try to remedy the situation. That is done by means of filtration and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The sponge filter will serve two purposes. First, it makes an excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mechanical filter. It will trap most particulate matter that tries to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              penetrate it along with the flow of water. As the matter becomes trapped,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              finer and finer particles will be trapped until the sponge becomes clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and the water can no longer flow through it. Various nitrosomonas and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrobacter, among other small critters, will colonize the sponge as well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and start working on the nitrogenous wastes, until the water flow stops.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Then they will start to die or hibernate. That is why we need to clean this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filters on a regular basis dependant on the waste in the tank. The methods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of cleaning such a filter endanger the size of the bacterial colonies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Generally we rinse and squeeze to clean these filters. It does not matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              whether you rinse and squeeze in reserved tank water, from your water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              change, or under the open tap, bacteria are lost, and the colonies remaining
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              need to regenerate themselves. Fortunately, enough remain, so the tank does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              not need to recycle again. Sponge filters are good to use in bare bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tanks, as are normally used for raising fry and hospital tanks. Sponges are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              also used in many off the back filters as well, though these are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              commonly referred to as "sponge filters", but the above description of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              function does apply to those sponges as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The bio-wheels serve as pure biological filters. There sole purpose is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              provide a bed for the bacterial colonies we need to keep our nitrogenous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wastes in check. Since both nitrosomonas and nitrobacter require oxygen to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              do their work, as well as a place to colonize, and a constant supply of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "food" the bio-wheels are designed to do just this. The surface area is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              large due to the pleating of the wheel material, and water and oxygen are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              provided via the outflow of the mechanical filter to which they are attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              as water is returned to the aquarium. "Ah, the perfect solution!", one may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              think. However, this is not necessarily so. As the conversion of ammonia to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrite to nitrate occurs, a slime is created that coats the material utiliz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ed for the colonization of these critters, and a regular cleaning cycle will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              be called for to remove this waste, again, with the diminishment of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              colonies on the wheel. Again, enough usually remain to continue on with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              interruption of the cycle. Bio-wheels do not need to be used in conjunction
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with a filter, but, for the most part, they generally are. In the presence
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of a filter, be it the off the back type or a canister type, there is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrification occurring in the filter itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Finally, we have the under gravel filter or UGF. As with the sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the UGF also serves to mechanically filter the water, as well as providing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              substrate for bacteria to colonize. Use of a UGF is more problematic than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the other two types. A thorough cleaning of the gravel bed can disrupt the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filter enough so that an ammonia spike can be generated while the colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replenish themselves to handle the load, in effect, causing the tank to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cycle once again. This cycle, however, will not be as radical as the initial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cycle all tanks experience. The water flow may not provide enough food or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              oxygen to enable the bacteria to be efficient at what they do Simply because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the colonization occurs at the bottom of the tank means that the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              be somewhat depleted of oxygen by the time it reaches the bacteria, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              enough should get to them, otherwise you have a serious problem in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that no amount of filtration will cure. The buildup of mulm under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              supporting structure may impede the water flow as well, though this buildup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is, more or less, inert otherwise. Finally, there is an inherent unevenness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the flow through various parts of the filter. This, along with structures
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that my be resting atop the substrate may create dead areas that become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anaerobic, and harmful to the tank inhabitants because they can produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gases such as hydrogen sulfide that is harmful to life in the aquarium. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              proper anaerobic bacteria--the bacteria that removes nitrate--will not grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in these areas, so they are just hazards.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cleaning only a portion of the substrate is one way to get around the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              buildup of particulate matter without harming the overall usefulness of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filter. To move structures that may cause anaerobic areas in the substrate,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is one way to combat that problem, along with a thorough vacuuming of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              area. And the cleaning of the mulm under the supporting structure is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              probably the most neglected portion of the maintenance, as it is the hardest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to accomplish. If you slide flexible air tubing down the filter's return
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tubes, and start a siphon, you may be able to clean a good portion of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              stuff up, but it is difficult to reach all areas, so some remains behind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              necessity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The more astute of you have probably noticed that I have not said much yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about area. Surface area is very important. The more surface area you have,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the larger the bacterial colonies can become. Unfortunately, it is very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              difficult to measure the available surface area of any of the materials we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have been talking about. Look at a piece of gravel. The many facets it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are very hard to measure. Any formula you may use will not be accurate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, with a UGF, the depth of the bead will also increase the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              available for colonization. How does the area of a two inch bead of #2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gravel compare with the area of a bio-wheel or a sponge, or even a two inch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              layer of #3 gravel? You got me, though I can definitely say that there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              more area with a given depth of #2 than there is with #3 gravel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The area of a sponge is also pretty impossible to measure. Each one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pores of a sponge provide more area, but there are larger and smaller pores.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              While some of you seem to be pretty sure of your area measurements of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bio-wheel substrate, each one of you is wrong. That substrate is not smooth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              as you are assuming. It is very fibrous, providing much more surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              than your measurements indicate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So, what is an aquarist to do? Well, the answer really is, whatever works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for you. A few hints would be to no overstocking. While we regularly stock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              more than nature does, let's not cram every cubic inch of aquarium with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish. Stock lightly, even by the rules that are given for stocking an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aquarium. Do regular maintenance on your aquarium. Do a minimum of a 10%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water change each week, more if you can. Clean your filters as often as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              can, along with your water changes is good, but you may need to do so more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              often. Along with your water changes, vacuum at least a small portion of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              your substrate each week, and do a different section each week. Don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              overfeed. The wasted food contributes to the load on the tank, meaning more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              maintenance is needed, and, as it decomposes, places more stress on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish. A stressed fish is not a healthy fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, to keep in mind is that the size of the colonies will reflect the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amount of food available for the colonies to use. Should there be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              reduction in nitrogenous wastes, there will be a reduction in the size of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the colonies. Some will die, and others will hibernate. The less load in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              your tank will mean smaller colonies. If the load is adjusted upward, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the introduction of a new fish, for example, those n hibernation will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              re-awaken, and the colony will increase. However, this takes some time, so a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              smallish spike may be seen in your water testing. If you are going to adjust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              your tank's load upward, do it slowly and cautiously, giving the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              time to meet the load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.pvas.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5163 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Best Tank Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a 29 gallon and a 10 gallon...looking for the best trusted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              heaters for them...the ones I have now I don't trust too much...the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              closer it gets to winter I really want reliable ones

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5164 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Puffer Fish Food Options
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I currently feed my leopard puffer a variety of live black worms,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              frozen blood worms and frozen brine shrimp.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Has anyone had luck with any other types of food, like freeze dried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              blood worms? Anything else?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5165 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I don't know which is the best heater, but I emphatically gave up on the non-submersible/hang-on-the-tank- heaters almost immediately, when I started about fifteen years ago. I remember one of the good submersable heaters had a rubber-like covering over the adjustment knob, and found that adjustments became VERY difficult.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 29 gallon and a 10 gallon...looking for the best trusted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > heaters for them...the ones I have now I don't trust too much...the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > closer it gets to winter I really want reliable ones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5166 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Puffer feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have dwarf puffers. Mine have only eaten frozen bloodworms and snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They wouldn't touch brine shrimp, and I have seen a few show interest in flakes, but not really enough to say they eat them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I guess that isn't much help, but I haven't tried anything else yet. Mine do like things that seem to move.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5167 From: Keith g Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I cannot say from first hand experience, but from research on the web I found that the most respected brand was Ebo Jäger.  The prices of the various heaters did not vary much.  You can see them at: www.drsfostersmith.com at: http://tinyurl.com/3n37g

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Keith

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              robdar4609 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a 29 gallon and a 10 gallon...looking for the best trusted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              heaters for them...the ones I have now I don't trust too much...the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              closer it gets to winter I really want reliable ones

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5168 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 9/18/2004 6:34:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yahoo_mail1964@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I cannot say from first hand experience, but from research on the web I found that the most respected brand was Ebo Jäger.  The prices of the various heaters did not vary much.  You can see them at: www.drsfostersmith.com at: http://tinyurl.com/3n37g

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Keith
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Keith,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I agree, I have had several brands break, even stainless steel and titanium ones, the couple Ebo's I have are still pluggin along.  Somethings are worth paying more to buy once.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5169 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 10/1/2004, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Friday October 1, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The next reminder for this event will be sent in 9 days, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Notes:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We meet the first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5170 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It will all depend on what size tank you have as well as what brand of ammonia you have.  The stuff I bought from wal mart I added 4 mil per 10 gallons of water and I got that to a reading of between 4 and 5 ppm and with the 10 gallon tank it cycled it a little over a week, the 55 gallon has been running for just over a week and it's has not cycled yet, didn't really think it would that quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3 ppm.  Keep track of how much it takes to get there.  You will have to do a lot of testing to find out.  Start with about 1/4 cup for 10 gallons and see what you get.  I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5171 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a 25 gallon tall Eclipse. Can you give me an "ounces" or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cc's amount? I know to try to find the pure ammonia that doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                suds when shaken. I'm ready to go, but surely don't want to ruin my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                beautiful new baby plants. I don't mind being patient with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cycling. I surely don't want to hurt the plants OR the eventual new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tetras or rasboras! I've ordered a good testing kit, and I hope it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                has good instructions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > It will all depend on what size tank you have as well as what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                brand of ammonia you have. The stuff I bought from wal mart I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                4 mil per 10 gallons of water and I got that to a reading of between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                4 and 5 ppm and with the 10 gallon tank it cycled it a little over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                week, the 55 gallon has been running for just over a week and it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                has not cycled yet, didn't really think it would that quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3 ppm. Keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                track of how much it takes to get there. You will have to do a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of testing to find out. Start with about 1/4 cup for 10 gallons and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                see what you get. I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you find something to help me correct myself, please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5172 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'd start off with 1 to 2 tea spoons of ammonia and then test for ammonia.  Then keep checking and adding the same amount until your nitrides spike get to 2-4 ppm and then cut the ammonia in half.  After ammonia and nitrites are both at zero ppm then I'd add a larger amount of ammonia like maybe 3 tea spoons full and it it's gone the next day when your test your ready for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Some people say you can fully stock your tank after a fishless cycle, but what I've always done with added maybe a 4th the total number of fish you want (or can have) and then test every 4 days or so and a week or 2 later and my next 4th and so on.  Works for me and others I know.  Good luck and keep us posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you want to take it you can add a smaller amount of ammonia and just keep testing until you get what you are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a 25 gallon tall Eclipse.  Can you give me an "ounces" or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cc's amount?  I know to try to find the pure ammonia that doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                suds when shaken.  I'm ready to go, but surely don't want to ruin my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                beautiful new baby plants.  I don't mind being patient with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cycling.  I surely don't want to hurt the plants OR the eventual new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tetras or rasboras!  I've ordered a good testing kit, and I hope it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                has good instructions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > It will all depend on what size tank you have as well as what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                brand of ammonia you have.  The stuff I bought from wal mart I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                4 mil per 10 gallons of water and I got that to a reading of between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                4 and 5 ppm and with the 10 gallon tank it cycled it a little over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                week, the 55 gallon has been running for just over a week and it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                has not cycled yet, didn't really think it would that quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3 ppm.  Keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                track of how much it takes to get there.  You will have to do a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of testing to find out.  Start with about 1/4 cup for 10 gallons and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                see what you get.  I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         If you find something to help me correct myself, please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >               
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5173 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I had to check my sent folder because I couldn't believe I sent it like that.  No, I don't believe there is a biowheel made for a 29 gallon that can BEAT a planted 29 gallon tank.  It is funny how two letters left out of a word can change the whole message. :)  Of course they can be used with a planted tank, and would probably go well together.  Sorry about that confusing sentence, I can see the problem there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i'm not sure i understand what you're saying there. you don't think you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  can use a biowheel with a planted 29 gallon tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Sep 18, 2004, at 3:04 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>  I seriously doubt there is a biowheel made for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 29 gallon tank that can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> be a planted 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5174 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Hi...I'm new with some questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Take the goldfish back to the store as soon as you can, or get a 30 gallon tank as soon as you can.  Goldfish grow to over a foot long, but will probably die in such a small tank.  I would quit using ich meds and do 50% water changes daily until you can take the fish back or get a new tank.  And by the way, most problems experienced by fish keepers happen during the first 2 months.  Click the nitrogen cycle link below my name and you can find out why... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey, everyone!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My name's kristen, and I just joined your group!  I just started a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    small aquarium (only a five gallon) and I'm ALREADY experiencing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    problems.  Wondering if I could get some helpful advice to help save
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Like I said, its a five gallon tank.  I have two goldfish and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    little algae eater in there.  I had the tank up and running for 24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hours before I added the fish.  I used a water conditioner.  I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the fish.  They were good for maybe a day, then they started being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lethargic and sitting at the bottom of the tank.  Well, now they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ick and I think ammonia poisioning.  I started the Ick treatment and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the ammonia treatment yesterday, but they dont seem to be doing any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    better.  Today I did a 25% water change, and re-treated the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but i think that the man at Petsmart didnt inform me very well, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just sold me a bunch of junk.  I love all animals, and dont like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    watch these fish suffer...is there ANYTHING that I can do to save
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks in advance...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    _Kristen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5175 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Best Tank Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Can't say I've ever heard a bad thing about ebo jagers.  Now I'm sure someone will reply and say something bad about them.  I haven't had one, I use acuras, but if you want the best I would say e j's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish for 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or in books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you find something to help me correct myself, please tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5176 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Biowheels -> are they good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ah! ok, now i get ya! in the past year i moved to a 55 gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (with a biowheel) from a 29 gallon (with a biowheel) and i was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      confused!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Sep 18, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >     I had to check my sent folder because I couldn't believe I sent it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > like that.  No, I don't believe there is a biowheel made for a 29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gallon that can BEAT a planted 29 gallon tank.  It is funny how two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > letters left out of a word can change the whole message. :)  Of course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they can be used with a planted tank, and would probably go well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > together.  Sorry about that confusing sentence, I can see the problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5177 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Tell me why do you find it necessary to write such a huge post when all you have done is repeat what has already been said, with a few inaccuracies thrown in, do you claim to be a marine biologist ?, and why the attempt at free advertising at the end?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. sponge filters;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. bio-wheel attachments; and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3. Undergravel filters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The main topic seems to be ammonia and nitrite removal and which do the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The definitive answer that everyone seems to be looking for is -- "It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      depends".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All three methods are good, and have their place in the scheme of things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Let us remember that even in a tank without any sort of filtration the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrosomonas and nitrobacter will grow. They may not do a real good job of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      converting nitrogenous waste into another form, but they are there. The idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      behind each of these types of filtration is to help promote the growth and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      increase the efficiency of the bacteria. Each can accomplish the job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One thing we must all remember is that the aquarium is a closed system. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      such, in order to mimic an open system, i.e. the streams, rivers, ponds, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lakes that our fish come from, they need some form of help. This help comes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in the form of filtration and regular water changes. We are also hampered in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that our aquariums are overstocked by any criteria when compared to an open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      system. Try this. Go sit out on the bank of a body of water. Visualize the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      size of your tank. Place it into the water, and see how many fish are in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there (no fair sitting out at the koi pond!)? If you are lucky, you may see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      one or two, but, most likely you will see none. How many fish do you have in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your tank, the one you visualized? Probably plenty. In both your tank and in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the wild, the fish are producing ammonia. In the open system there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrosomonas and nitrobacter present that can utilize this waste. Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      these fish are experiencing a constant water change, so the bad stuff is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      continuously getting flushed away. This does not happen in a tank, so we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have to try to remedy the situation. That is done by means of filtration and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The sponge filter will serve two purposes. First, it makes an excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mechanical filter. It will trap most particulate matter that tries to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      penetrate it along with the flow of water. As the matter becomes trapped,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      finer and finer particles will be trapped until the sponge becomes clogged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and the water can no longer flow through it. Various nitrosomonas and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrobacter, among other small critters, will colonize the sponge as well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and start working on the nitrogenous wastes, until the water flow stops.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Then they will start to die or hibernate. That is why we need to clean this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filters on a regular basis dependant on the waste in the tank. The methods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of cleaning such a filter endanger the size of the bacterial colonies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Generally we rinse and squeeze to clean these filters. It does not matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      whether you rinse and squeeze in reserved tank water, from your water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      change, or under the open tap, bacteria are lost, and the colonies remaining
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      need to regenerate themselves. Fortunately, enough remain, so the tank does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not need to recycle again. Sponge filters are good to use in bare bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks, as are normally used for raising fry and hospital tanks. Sponges are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      also used in many off the back filters as well, though these are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      commonly referred to as "sponge filters", but the above description of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      function does apply to those sponges as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The bio-wheels serve as pure biological filters. There sole purpose is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      provide a bed for the bacterial colonies we need to keep our nitrogenous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wastes in check. Since both nitrosomonas and nitrobacter require oxygen to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do their work, as well as a place to colonize, and a constant supply of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "food" the bio-wheels are designed to do just this. The surface area is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      large due to the pleating of the wheel material, and water and oxygen are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      provided via the outflow of the mechanical filter to which they are attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as water is returned to the aquarium. "Ah, the perfect solution!", one may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      think. However, this is not necessarily so. As the conversion of ammonia to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite to nitrate occurs, a slime is created that coats the material utiliz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ed for the colonization of these critters, and a regular cleaning cycle will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be called for to remove this waste, again, with the diminishment of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      colonies on the wheel. Again, enough usually remain to continue on with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      interruption of the cycle. Bio-wheels do not need to be used in conjunction
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with a filter, but, for the most part, they generally are. In the presence
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of a filter, be it the off the back type or a canister type, there is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrification occurring in the filter itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Finally, we have the under gravel filter or UGF. As with the sponge filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the UGF also serves to mechanically filter the water, as well as providing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      substrate for bacteria to colonize. Use of a UGF is more problematic than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the other two types. A thorough cleaning of the gravel bed can disrupt the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter enough so that an ammonia spike can be generated while the colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      replenish themselves to handle the load, in effect, causing the tank to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cycle once again. This cycle, however, will not be as radical as the initial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cycle all tanks experience. The water flow may not provide enough food or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      oxygen to enable the bacteria to be efficient at what they do Simply because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the colonization occurs at the bottom of the tank means that the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be somewhat depleted of oxygen by the time it reaches the bacteria, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      enough should get to them, otherwise you have a serious problem in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that no amount of filtration will cure. The buildup of mulm under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      supporting structure may impede the water flow as well, though this buildup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is, more or less, inert otherwise. Finally, there is an inherent unevenness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of the flow through various parts of the filter. This, along with structures
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that my be resting atop the substrate may create dead areas that become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anaerobic, and harmful to the tank inhabitants because they can produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gases such as hydrogen sulfide that is harmful to life in the aquarium. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      proper anaerobic bacteria--the bacteria that removes nitrate--will not grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in these areas, so they are just hazards.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cleaning only a portion of the substrate is one way to get around the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      buildup of particulate matter without harming the overall usefulness of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter. To move structures that may cause anaerobic areas in the substrate,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is one way to combat that problem, along with a thorough vacuuming of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      area. And the cleaning of the mulm under the supporting structure is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      probably the most neglected portion of the maintenance, as it is the hardest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to accomplish. If you slide flexible air tubing down the filter's return
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tubes, and start a siphon, you may be able to clean a good portion of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      stuff up, but it is difficult to reach all areas, so some remains behind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      necessity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The more astute of you have probably noticed that I have not said much yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about area. Surface area is very important. The more surface area you have,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the larger the bacterial colonies can become. Unfortunately, it is very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      difficult to measure the available surface area of any of the materials we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have been talking about. Look at a piece of gravel. The many facets it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are very hard to measure. Any formula you may use will not be accurate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also, with a UGF, the depth of the bead will also increase the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      available for colonization. How does the area of a two inch bead of #2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel compare with the area of a bio-wheel or a sponge, or even a two inch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      layer of #3 gravel? You got me, though I can definitely say that there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      more area with a given depth of #2 than there is with #3 gravel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The area of a sponge is also pretty impossible to measure. Each one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      pores of a sponge provide more area, but there are larger and smaller pores.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      While some of you seem to be pretty sure of your area measurements of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bio-wheel substrate, each one of you is wrong. That substrate is not smooth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as you are assuming. It is very fibrous, providing much more surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      than your measurements indicate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So, what is an aquarist to do? Well, the answer really is, whatever works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for you. A few hints would be to no overstocking. While we regularly stock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      more than nature does, let's not cram every cubic inch of aquarium with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish. Stock lightly, even by the rules that are given for stocking an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquarium. Do regular maintenance on your aquarium. Do a minimum of a 10%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water change each week, more if you can. Clean your filters as often as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can, along with your water changes is good, but you may need to do so more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      often. Along with your water changes, vacuum at least a small portion of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your substrate each week, and do a different section each week. Don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      overfeed. The wasted food contributes to the load on the tank, meaning more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      maintenance is needed, and, as it decomposes, places more stress on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish. A stressed fish is not a healthy fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also, to keep in mind is that the size of the colonies will reflect the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amount of food available for the colonies to use. Should there be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      reduction in nitrogenous wastes, there will be a reduction in the size of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the colonies. Some will die, and others will hibernate. The less load in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your tank will mean smaller colonies. If the load is adjusted upward, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the introduction of a new fish, for example, those n hibernation will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      re-awaken, and the colony will increase. However, this takes some time, so a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      smallish spike may be seen in your water testing. If you are going to adjust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your tank's load upward, do it slowly and cautiously, giving the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      time to meet the load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      List Owner:  fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5178 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The firemouth is a Cichlid. her is a link about them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We will take a photo of the tank we have and put it up on the photos area when we can, we can't at the moment because we put in some new plants a few days ago and the tank has gone cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So we are water changing to get rid of the cloudiness, but once it is nice and clear we will put one up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/18/04 16:00:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The calcium will help.  Iodine is a new thing for snail keepers so not a lot of people are using it yet, you can have good shells without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What are fire mouths?  (fish I am guessing?)  I am not a great fish keeper as you can tell!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5179 From: bryants4god Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the link, those are very pretty.  I like colorful fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Apple Snails Again!!New question Terry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The firemouth is a Cichlid. her is a link about them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We will take a photo of the tank we have and put it up on the photos area when we can, we can't at the moment because we put in some new plants a few days ago and the tank has gone cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So we are water changing to get rid of the cloudiness, but once it is nice and clear we will put one up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5180 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi ~Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Is it possible for people to maybe put a signature on their emails saying what tanks they have and what is in their tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Its just nice to know, when we are talking to each other, it saves people asking as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We done one.......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5181 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just ordered my test kit and hope it gets here quickly. Hope it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          okay to wait a few days to start testing. I need to look for some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          PURE ammonia too, and be ready to start as soon as the kit arrives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm really liking the way the aquarium is looking already, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          don't have all the plants here yet either. The water has cleared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and no complaints from my hubby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I'd start off with 1 to 2 tea spoons of ammonia and then test for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia. Then keep checking and adding the same amount until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nitrides spike get to 2-4 ppm and then cut the ammonia in half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          After ammonia and nitrites are both at zero ppm then I'd add a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          larger amount of ammonia like maybe 3 tea spoons full and it it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gone the next day when your test your ready for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Some people say you can fully stock your tank after a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle, but what I've always done with added maybe a 4th the total
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          number of fish you want (or can have) and then test every 4 days or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so and a week or 2 later and my next 4th and so on. Works for me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and others I know. Good luck and keep us posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you want to take it you can add a smaller amount of ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just keep testing until you get what you are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > From: Barbara Linden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a 25 gallon tall Eclipse. Can you give me an "ounces" or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cc's amount? I know to try to find the pure ammonia that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > suds when shaken. I'm ready to go, but surely don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ruin my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > beautiful new baby plants. I don't mind being patient with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycling. I surely don't want to hurt the plants OR the eventual
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tetras or rasboras! I've ordered a good testing kit, and I hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > has good instructions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > It will all depend on what size tank you have as well as what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > brand of ammonia you have. The stuff I bought from wal mart I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 4 mil per 10 gallons of water and I got that to a reading of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 4 and 5 ppm and with the 10 gallon tank it cycled it a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > week, the 55 gallon has been running for just over a week and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > has not cycled yet, didn't really think it would that quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3 ppm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > track of how much it takes to get there. You will have to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of testing to find out. Start with about 1/4 cup for 10 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > see what you get. I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tell me and provide a citation.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5182 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Please point out said inaccuracies in my post. As others on the list have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          seen, I f I am wrong, I am glad to accept correction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Should I lay claim to be more than a mere hobbyist, it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          presented in my post. I have presented my credentials on this list before,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and when appropriate will present them again, which is far more than many on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this list do, but I do not read any special knowledge into their posts as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you seem to be doing with mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The post is an attempt to sort out a long and wandering thread, with many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sub-threads to put the topic into a form that is easy to understand and also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to toss in some comments of my own, hopefully to clarify the subject to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          those who are reading and may be finding themselves lost.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Since I never did receive a copy of the message I sent, I don't know what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you mean about the advertising at the end, other than the usual appended by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo!, which in my original message should have been much shorter than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          those who write their messages in HTML.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you mean my tag, that is a normal tag at the end. I've not seen you take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          others who use, sometime elaborate, tags as their signature on this list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          None of the sites promoted are commercial sites, as I see in some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          other tags, so why bother to complain, since there is no rule prohibiting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tags of any kind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes, the post was a bit long. The topic at hand is not a simple topic. Books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have been written on this topic. If you wish a simple answer to the question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that was originally asked, get a filter that suits your needs. There you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have it. Run with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I await your dissection of the alleged inaccuracies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tell me why do you find it necessary to write such a huge post when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          all you have done is repeat what has already been said, with a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          inaccuracies thrown in, do you claim to be a marine biologist ?, and why the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          attempt at free advertising at the end?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. sponge filters;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. bio-wheel attachments; and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3. Undergravel filters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The main topic seems to be ammonia and nitrite removal and which do the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------<snip>--------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5183 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society , 9/19/2004, 2:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sunday September 19, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2:00 pm - 4:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This event does not repeat.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.sfbaaps.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Plant Swap at Temescal Cafe (Jeff Kropp)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We will return to Temescal Cafe for our next plant swap on 9/19 at 200 pm (note adjusted time!). It is located on Telegraph Ave. in Oakland. Use the 51st/MLK way exit from E. bound hwy 24 or the Telegraph ave exit on west bound hwy. 24. Nearest BART is the Macarthur BART at 42nd and Telegraph. I could swing by BART to pick up if needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Send a Yahoo! Greeting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Birthday Reminders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Set up birthday reminders!


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5184 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Long story short, how in the world does one go about THOROUGHLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          siphoning the Flourite and rocks when there are live plants? Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          when the water is stirred up and cloudy again, is it safe to put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fishies back into the tank, or should I wait until it clears...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Needless to say, I just cleaned out my first aquarium! Nothing like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          learning what questions need to be asked by facing situations! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          saved as much of the original water as I could, before it got all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          stirred up, and returned it to the tank already....with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          exception of the bowl that the fishies are in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks again SOOO much for your patience and knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5185 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sounds like you are having a good time and thats what really matters.  As for the ammonia it took me a while to find it and I bought some no name stuff at wal-mart for like 99 cents a half gallon.  I've cycled 3 (well 2 full tanks and working on a 3rd) and still have well over half left.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just ordered my test kit and hope it gets here quickly.  Hope it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          okay to wait a few days to start testing.  I need to look for some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          PURE ammonia too, and be ready to start as soon as the kit arrives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm really liking the way the aquarium is looking already, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          don't have all the plants here yet either.  The water has cleared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and no complaints from my hubby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I'd start off with 1 to 2 tea spoons of ammonia and then test for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia.  Then keep checking and adding the same amount until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nitrides spike get to 2-4 ppm and then cut the ammonia in half. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          After ammonia and nitrites are both at zero ppm then I'd add a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          larger amount of ammonia like maybe 3 tea spoons full and it it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gone the next day when your test your ready for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Some people say you can fully stock your tank after a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle, but what I've always done with added maybe a 4th the total
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          number of fish you want (or can have) and then test every 4 days or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so and a week or 2 later and my next 4th and so on.  Works for me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and others I know.  Good luck and keep us posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you want to take it you can add a smaller amount of ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just keep testing until you get what you are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   From: Barbara Linden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   I have a 25 gallon tall Eclipse.  Can you give me an "ounces" or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   cc's amount?  I know to try to find the pure ammonia that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   suds when shaken.  I'm ready to go, but surely don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ruin my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   beautiful new baby plants.  I don't mind being patient with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   cycling.  I surely don't want to hurt the plants OR the eventual
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   tetras or rasboras!  I've ordered a good testing kit, and I hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   has good instructions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > It will all depend on what size tank you have as well as what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   brand of ammonia you have.  The stuff I bought from wal mart I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   4 mil per 10 gallons of water and I got that to a reading of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   4 and 5 ppm and with the 10 gallon tank it cycled it a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   week, the 55 gallon has been running for just over a week and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   has not cycled yet, didn't really think it would that quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   > robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >   From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >   Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3 ppm. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   track of how much it takes to get there.  You will have to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   of testing to find out.  Start with about 1/4 cup for 10 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   see what you get.  I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         Feel free to confirm my information on the Internet or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   >         If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   tell me and provide a citation.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5186 From: StarWolf Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Like this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            50 Gallon Freshwater Tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Female Balloon Guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Female Swordtail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 Male Swordtails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            5 Fancy Tailed Guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            4 Chinese Algae Eaters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At 03:09 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi ~Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Is it possible for people to maybe put a signature on their emails saying what tanks they have and what is in their tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Its just nice to know, when we are talking to each other, it saves people asking as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We done one.......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5187 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah thats the one......lol 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 09/19/04 18:00:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Like this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            50 Gallon Freshwater Tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Female Balloon Guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Female Swordtail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 Male Swordtails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            5 Fancy Tailed Guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            4 Chinese Algae Eaters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At 03:09 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi ~Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Is it possible for people to maybe put a signature on their emails saying what tanks they have and what is in their tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Its just nice to know, when we are talking to each other, it saves people asking as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We done one.......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5188 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Or this? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Like this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              B. StarWolf Jossy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              50 Gallon Freshwater Tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Female Balloon Guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Female Swordtail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3 Male Swordtails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              5 Fancy Tailed Guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Chinese Algae Eaters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ceramic Sculpture Artist at www.earthencreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Web Design and Admin of www.enchantedherbalcreations.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Co Founder of www.heroweb.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Content Design Administrator for www.ourlittletribe.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "True Freedom will be established when all Peoples have Equal Rights and Laws to protect those rights."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Discrimination and Oppression is the root of Hate, as long as there is Hate, there will be no Peace."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Respect Yourself and Others should be the 1st Universal Law"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5189 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hardly ever vacuum the gravel in my tank.  It is full of stuff that plants need to grown on.  If you have a part of the tank where you don't plan to have plants you can vacuum it.  Vacuuming gravel isn't important when you have a planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Long story short, how in the world does one go about THOROUGHLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                siphoning the Flourite and rocks when there are live plants?  Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                when the water is stirred up and cloudy again, is it safe to put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fishies back into the tank, or should I wait until it clears...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Needless to say, I just cleaned out my first aquarium!  Nothing like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                learning what questions need to be asked by facing situations!  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                saved as much of the original water as I could, before it got all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stirred up, and returned it to the tank already....with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                exception of the bowl that the fishies are in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks again SOOO much for your patience and knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5190 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: amount of ammonia to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks again, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Now, I'd rather take a stick in the eye than have to go to WalMart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sounds like you are having a good time and thats what really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                matters. As for the ammonia it took me a while to find it and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bought some no name stuff at wal-mart for like 99 cents a half
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon. I've cycled 3 (well 2 full tanks and working on a 3rd) and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                still have well over half left.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: Barbara Linden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I just ordered my test kit and hope it gets here quickly. Hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > okay to wait a few days to start testing. I need to look for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > PURE ammonia too, and be ready to start as soon as the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                arrives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm really liking the way the aquarium is looking already, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't have all the plants here yet either. The water has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cleared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and no complaints from my hubby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I'd start off with 1 to 2 tea spoons of ammonia and then test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia. Then keep checking and adding the same amount until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrides spike get to 2-4 ppm and then cut the ammonia in half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > After ammonia and nitrites are both at zero ppm then I'd add a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > larger amount of ammonia like maybe 3 tea spoons full and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gone the next day when your test your ready for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Some people say you can fully stock your tank after a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cycle, but what I've always done with added maybe a 4th the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                total
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > number of fish you want (or can have) and then test every 4 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so and a week or 2 later and my next 4th and so on. Works for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and others I know. Good luck and keep us posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > If you want to take it you can add a smaller amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just keep testing until you get what you are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > From: Barbara Linden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I have a 25 gallon tall Eclipse. Can you give me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                an "ounces" or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cc's amount? I know to try to find the pure ammonia that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > suds when shaken. I'm ready to go, but surely don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ruin my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > beautiful new baby plants. I don't mind being patient with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycling. I surely don't want to hurt the plants OR the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eventual
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tetras or rasboras! I've ordered a good testing kit, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > has good instructions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > It will all depend on what size tank you have as well as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > brand of ammonia you have. The stuff I bought from wal mart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 4 mil per 10 gallons of water and I got that to a reading of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 4 and 5 ppm and with the 10 gallon tank it cycled it a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > week, the 55 gallon has been running for just over a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > has not cycled yet, didn't really think it would that quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to add for Fishless Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Just keep adding ammonia until it gets up to 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ppm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > track of how much it takes to get there. You will have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of testing to find out. Start with about 1/4 cup for 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > see what you get. I don't know any better way to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                banana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > WARNING: I am not a biologist and have only kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Feel free to confirm my information on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Internet or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > books.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > If you find something to help me correct myself,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tell me and provide a citation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5191 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                YEA!!!! This is the best news I've heard all year! THANKS! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank I was just dealing with was the 12 gallon Eclipse with big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel and stones...and...gulp...plastic plants. Now that I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                REAL plants in the 25 gallon with Flourite, I'm thinking what a HUGE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difference there is! I'm definitely not going to put too many fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in there either. I'm learning...I'm learning!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                THANKS!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I hardly ever vacuum the gravel in my tank. It is full of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stuff that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants need to grown on. If you have a part of the tank where you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plan to have plants you can vacuum it. Vacuuming gravel isn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                important
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > when you have a planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Long story short, how in the world does one go about THOROUGHLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > siphoning the Flourite and rocks when there are live plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > when the water is stirred up and cloudy again, is it safe to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fishies back into the tank, or should I wait until it clears...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Needless to say, I just cleaned out my first aquarium! Nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > learning what questions need to be asked by facing situations! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > saved as much of the original water as I could, before it got all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > stirred up, and returned it to the tank already....with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > exception of the bowl that the fishies are in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks again SOOO much for your patience and knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5192 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i'm glad you said that! i have a planted tank and realized that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                vacuuming the gravel was doing more harm that good, or so it seemed,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but i've always felt guilty about not getting down into the gravel!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 19, 2004, at 2:27 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     I hardly ever vacuum the gravel in my tank.  It is full of stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that plants need to grown on.  If you have a part of the tank where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you don't plan to have plants you can vacuum it.  Vacuuming gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > isn't important when you have a planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5193 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Signatures!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Testing ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At 03:09 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi ~Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is it possible for people to maybe put a signature on their emails saying what tanks they have and what is in their tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Its just nice to know, when we are talking to each other, it saves people asking as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We done one.......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5194 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Endler's livebearers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I breed Endler's in a 10g planted tank. Full grown males are ~3/4", females at bit larger at 1". They tolerate temps of 75° to 85° but seem to best around 78-79°, you'll see less activity with higher temps. They are very peaceful fish and it seems in only rare instances do they eat their fry. Fry are born approx every 21-24 days. They will cross-breed with guppies, but because they're feared extinct in the wild it's best not to keep the two species in the same tank. They eat flake, live foods spirulina & veggie wafers...it's important to make sure food is small enough for them though. They like planted tanks and do not like strong currents.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm attaching a pic of 3 of my Endler's...adult male, juvenile male, and adult female. If the pic does not come thru you can see it here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dtmergl/detail?.dir=1632&.dnm=2058.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Audrey Archer" <arch1574@bellsouth.net>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > What information can any of you give me on Endler's? I wanted new fish for my tank, since I was down to only one female dwarf gourami fry and five white clouds, and I chose these because they were said to like higher pH, hard water and warm temps, and the picture on the web site I found excited me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I am not at all disappointed with the colors, although mine seem to have dark bug-eyes that do not match the photo I saw. They seem to be very happy in their new home, and everyone is getting along very well, but I am curious as to whether they are juveniles or full grown, life expectancy, what treats they might prefer, and so forth.  The 3 males are less than 1/2 inch long and the two largest females are less than 1 inch long (other two are significantly smaller and obviously juveniles) and they are all very slender. One site I found said they are "about half the size of fancy guppies". It has been too many years since I had guppies... but I remember them being much, much larger than these. If they are juveniles, how large might they get?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5195 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Puffer feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thanks, how many puffers do you have? I have one leopard puffer and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  was thinking about getting one more..in a 10-gallon until they grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  larger

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have dwarf puffers. Mine have only eaten frozen bloodworms and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > They wouldn't touch brine shrimp, and I have seen a few show
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  interest in flakes, but not really enough to say they eat them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I guess that isn't much help, but I haven't tried anything else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yet. Mine do like things that seem to move.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5196 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Changing Water Type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello all I have a question and I was hoping you might be able to help me with it. I have a 20 gallon tank that I have been using well water in for the 5 months it's been set up and I have been trucking the water in 5 gallon jugs back and forth.  I want to get the tank switched over to my tap water and was wondering what would be the best way to go about this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The well water has a ph of 7.4 and my tap water is between 7.8 and 8.0.  It's getting colder here and trips to get the water are becoming much harder to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was think a peired of 10 to 15% water changer everyday for a week or 2.  Would this be the best way to go about this or does someone have a better idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rob
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5197 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Suffering Fish, need help again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Back again for advice. All has been very well here (almost double in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  size since when we started this many months ago) then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was off the charts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is a shade between well in the stress zone between 1.0 and 3.0.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher of the mod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in between again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fish are a little bit better but they are still very much suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  low, and not much of an appetite. The water is cloudy to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am lost, things were going so well. HELP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear) a few weeks wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  they are not exactly supposed to be in with Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  been for many months with no problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ps. I have to share my growing love for these guys. They really know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  me and we have routines, its so cute. Sammy sees me and runs to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  waiting to feed. I COULD feed him from my hand but I am not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yet. Its just cute how he knows me as the feeder and enjoys watching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  me as much as I do him. The ??? Alge eater guy, not the fish looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  one, the placo? he is huge and he also knows when I start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  feeding....he runs to the corner that I always drop his food, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  adorable...then he is shy about it/eating and waits until I move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  several feet away. Anyway, want to save them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5198 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Changing Water Type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rob,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you check the pH of your tap water 24 hours after it is drawn from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tap, is the pH still 7.8-8.0?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What is the actual pH of the tank water? Is it maintaining the 7.4 pH of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  well water, or is it dropping further?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If the tap water matches the tank pH, or is fairly close after 24 hours, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  just let the water sit for a day and do my water change. If the tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  is below what you are currently adding, I'd probably just do a 5-10% water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  change for several weeks until the pH stabilizes at the new level, then go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  back to your normal water change schedule, should it be more than the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  changes you do to acclimate everyone (thing) to the new water. I'd also hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  some well water in reserve, in case there is something in the tap water the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  critters don't care for. There is more to water than pH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Changing Water Type


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello all I have a question and I was hoping you might be able to help me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with it. I have a 20 gallon tank that I have been using well water in for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the 5 months it's been set up and I have been trucking the water in 5 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  jugs back and forth. I want to get the tank switched over to my tap water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and was wondering what would be the best way to go about this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The well water has a ph of 7.4 and my tap water is between 7.8 and 8.0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's getting colder here and trips to get the water are becoming much harder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was think a peired of 10 to 15% water changer everyday for a week or 2.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Would this be the best way to go about this or does someone have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  idea.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rob
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5199 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, need help again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would suggest increasing water changes to 10% daily for a few weeks and see what happens, then go to 50% weekly and stay there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Back again for advice. All has been very well here (almost double in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    size since when we started this many months ago) then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was off the charts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is a shade between well in the stress zone between 1.0 and 3.0.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher of the mod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in between again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Fish are a little bit better but they are still very much suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    low, and not much of an appetite. The water is cloudy to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am lost, things were going so well. HELP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear) a few weeks wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are not exactly supposed to be in with Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    been for many months with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5200 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    well now i am utterly confused.. i have had a planted tank for about a year now and have been vacumning it every month.. i just vacum around the plants and if a plants comes up i replant at the end of me diong all the work... i never get even half of the bottom just cuase i have a large orniment in the tank... so mai hearing this right that i dont need to vacumn.. i mean my water is clean so if i dont vacumn then my rocks will eventually turn brown.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Long story short, how in the world does one go about THOROUGHLY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    siphoning the Flourite and rocks when there are live plants?  Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    when the water is stirred up and cloudy again, is it safe to put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fishies back into the tank, or should I wait until it clears...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Needless to say, I just cleaned out my first aquarium!  Nothing like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    learning what questions need to be asked by facing situations!  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    saved as much of the original water as I could, before it got all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    stirred up, and returned it to the tank already....with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exception of the bowl that the fishies are in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again SOOO much for your patience and knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5201 From: paul helms Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if i knew how i would.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi ~Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is it possible for people to maybe put a signature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on their emails saying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what tanks they have and what is in their tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Its just nice to know, when we are talking to each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other, it saves people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > asking as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > We done one.......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Male Mollies, 4 Platies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5202 From: paul helms Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, need help again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if you have that much mitrite in the tank, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    somethign going on with decay. either the fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    being over fed, or dead fish have been left in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank. ifit were me, i would first find out what the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    source of ammonia is. nitrite is converted ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just as nitrate is converted nitrite. there will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    always be some nitrate, but if you are detecting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrite, then something is going on. the fish should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not be doubleing in size in a matter of months unles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sthey are fry, which makes it almost certain that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are being well over fed. they should only be fed once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    or twice a day, and only what will be consumed in less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    than 5 minutes. nothing should be left laying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bottom. if the fish have to serach for it, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    mostly rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- hazyhumid2 <my-destiny@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Back again for advice. All has been very well here
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (almost double in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > size since when we started this many months ago)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > off the charts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is a shade between well in the stress zone between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1.0 and 3.0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of the mod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > between again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > range.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fish are a little bit better but they are still very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > much suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > low, and not much of an appetite. The water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cloudy to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am lost, things were going so well. HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a few weeks wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they are not exactly supposed to be in with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > been for many months with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ps. I have to share my growing love for these guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > They really know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > me and we have routines, its so cute. Sammy sees me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and runs to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > waiting to feed. I COULD feed him from my hand but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > am not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > yet. Its just cute how he knows me as the feeder and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > enjoys watching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > me as much as I do him. The ??? Alge eater guy, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the fish looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one, the placo? he is huge and he also knows when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > feeding....he runs to the corner that I always drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > his food, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adorable...then he is shy about it/eating and waits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until I move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > several feet away. Anyway, want to save them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5203 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, need help again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As Patrick said, water changes, but I am going to modify his a bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do an immediate 50% water change. Provided the water you are using does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    test high for nitrates and nitrites. You are having a spike for some reason,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and once you have done the water change, you'll need to determine the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    source, if you can. I noted that you did not have a test result for ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so I would ask you to check that before the water change--so you have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    baseline, and then do all your nitrogen tests on a daily basis until things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    stabilize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The fact that you have an oscar in the tank, along with other inhabitants is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a big clue. If the oscar is large, you'll need to remove his tankmates,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because a 55 is a bare minimum for a full grown oscar. Oscars are dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish. They eat a lot and produce prodigious amounts of waste, including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia ,so you need to have a filtration system that can handle it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: hazyhumid2 [mailto:my-destiny@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Suffering Fish, need help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    again.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Back again for advice. All has been very well here (almost double in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    size since when we started this many months ago) then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was off the charts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is a shade between well in the stress zone between 1.0 and 3.0.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher of the mod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in between again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Fish are a little bit better but they are still very much suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    low, and not much of an appetite. The water is cloudy to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am lost, things were going so well. HELP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear) a few weeks wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are not exactly supposed to be in with Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    been for many months with no problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ps. I have to share my growing love for these guys. They really know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    me and we have routines, its so cute. Sammy sees me and runs to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    waiting to feed. I COULD feed him from my hand but I am not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yet. Its just cute how he knows me as the feeder and enjoys watching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    me as much as I do him. The ??? Alge eater guy, not the fish looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one, the placo? he is huge and he also knows when I start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    feeding....he runs to the corner that I always drop his food, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    adorable...then he is shy about it/eating and waits until I move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    several feet away. Anyway, want to save them!






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5204 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I will add a little more. I think I read a 55 gal. with an oscar and a big pleco. How many fish are in this tank. what are their sizes and how often are they fed? It sounds like excess nutrients causing a bacteria bloom. A 50% water change is in order and then you need to figure out why or it will continue to happen. What is the substrate? Live plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As Patrick said, water changes, but I am going to modify his a bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do an immediate 50% water change. Provided the water you are using does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    test high for nitrates and nitrites. You are having a spike for some reason,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and once you have done the water change, you'll need to determine the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    source, if you can. I noted that you did not have a test result for ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so I would ask you to check that before the water change--so you have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    baseline, and then do all your nitrogen tests on a daily basis until things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    stabilize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The fact that you have an oscar in the tank, along with other inhabitants is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a big clue. If the oscar is large, you'll need to remove his tankmates,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because a 55 is a bare minimum for a full grown oscar. Oscars are dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish. They eat a lot and produce prodigious amounts of waste, including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia ,so you need to have a filtration system that can handle it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: hazyhumid2 [mailto:my-destiny@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Suffering Fish, need help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    again.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Back again for advice. All has been very well here (almost double in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    size since when we started this many months ago) then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was off the charts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is a shade between well in the stress zone between 1.0 and 3.0.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher of the mod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in between again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Fish are a little bit better but they are still very much suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    low, and not much of an appetite. The water is cloudy to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am lost, things were going so well. HELP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear) a few weeks wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are not exactly supposed to be in with Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    been for many months with no problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ps. I have to share my growing love for these guys. They really know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    me and we have routines, its so cute. Sammy sees me and runs to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    waiting to feed. I COULD feed him from my hand but I am not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yet. Its just cute how he knows me as the feeder and enjoys watching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    me as much as I do him. The ??? Alge eater guy, not the fish looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one, the placo? he is huge and he also knows when I start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    feeding....he runs to the corner that I always drop his food, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    adorable...then he is shy about it/eating and waits until I move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    several feet away. Anyway, want to save them!






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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5205 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I joined this list a few months back, but didn't have any fish, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been on 'no mail' since about my second week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just got my first betta, which I know hardly counts as a tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquarium. I do have a 55-gallon aquarium, and I do plan to be setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that up before too long. I'm already collecting supplies for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rather than spending a bundle all at once, I'm getting one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    items at a time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, my betta is happy, but cramped. I fell for the gimmick of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    buying him a little betta tank, and learned the next day that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    need at least a couple of gallons to be really happy. It does make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sense... after all, if you have fins to spread, you need some room. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    feel so dumb for not using my common sense. I used to help my mom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with her tanks when I was younger, and I was reminded on another list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "one gallon of water per inch of fish". My next supply will be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    larger tank for Thai (that's what I named the betta).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5206 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: De-lurking/To Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You needn't feel dumb. Some folks still keep there bettas in bowls. You cared enough to give him a good home.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    loreleicosner <loreleicosner@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I joined this list a few months back, but didn't have any fish, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been on 'no mail' since about my second week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just got my first betta, which I know hardly counts as a tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquarium.  I do have a 55-gallon aquarium, and I do plan to be setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that up before too long.  I'm already collecting supplies for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rather than spending a bundle all at once, I'm getting one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    items at a time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, my betta is happy, but cramped.  I fell for the gimmick of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    buying him a little betta tank, and learned the next day that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    need at least a couple of gallons to be really happy.  It does make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sense... after all, if you have fins to spread, you need some room.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    feel so dumb for not using my common sense.  I used to help my mom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with her tanks when I was younger, and I was reminded on another list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "one gallon of water per inch of fish".  My next supply will be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    larger tank for Thai (that's what I named the betta).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lorelei



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5207 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: i have fish problems too major
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i have some seroius issues.. woke up and have a tank in distgress... i went to do a water change and my rasboro tetra was swimming upside down... so i took it out knowing it was giogn to die put it with tank water in a big bowl and stress coat and seemed to be better but i figured jsut temp.. anyhow cleand my tank.. and now i am putting water back in and my rosy barb that i posted a few days was preggo... and now apparently things are coming off the fish itself looks like mabye skin not even like eggs or babies... i never planned to breed and jsut seem to have come back to a nightmare.. im way frustrated... i had everything set up properly before i left and just seems that all hell has broken loose... so anyone know what i should do to my dying fish or the one giving birth thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5208 From: Aaron Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anybody here got a pond?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    or are we all just a bunch of so called "...frantic people with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquariums"?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dont know why, but we were abondoned by this former member who left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with a bad taste in her mouth (must have swalloed some pond water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    while diving with the wetsuit on)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-owner@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Beatrice1292@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >You said that you were for people with ponds, but you were only for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >frantic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >people with aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Debra




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Beatrice1292@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Well, I have a koi pond so I have two wetsuits to keep me dry. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    could try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5209 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Aquarium planting tools...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i have a pond, and i wrote to her. she just seemed angry that we all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote so much about the aquariums but unless someone asks a pond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    question, none of us are just going to talk mindlessly about our ponds.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a semi planted koi pond with a ton of frogs and some catfish (if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone cares) on top of my main 55 gal. planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    On Sep 19, 2004, at 10:08 PM, Aaron wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anybody here got a pond?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or are we all just a bunch of so called "...frantic people with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > aquariums"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dont know why, but we were abondoned by this former member who left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with a bad taste in her mouth (must have swalloed some pond water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > while diving with the wetsuit on)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-owner@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Beatrice1292@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >You said that you were for people with ponds, but you were only for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >frantic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >people with aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Beatrice1292@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Well, I have a koi pond so I have two wetsuits to keep me dry. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > could try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Debra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5210 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Go back to basics. Test the water. After a 50% water change. Post the results here with more info about your set-up. We will walk you thru the solution.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i have some seroius issues.. woke up and have a tank in distgress... i went to do a water change and my rasboro tetra was swimming upside down... so i took it out knowing it was giogn to die put it with tank water in a big bowl and stress coat and seemed to be better but i figured jsut temp.. anyhow cleand my tank.. and now i am putting water back in and my rosy barb that i posted a few days was preggo... and now apparently things are coming off the fish itself looks like mabye skin not even like eggs or babies... i never planned to breed and jsut seem to have come back to a nightmare.. im way frustrated... i had everything set up properly before i left and just seems that all hell has broken loose... so anyone know what i should do to my dying fish or the one giving birth thanks shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5211 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: De-lurking/To Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you for the kind words of encouragement, Harry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    After I sent that email, I got to thinking about the 55-gal. As soon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as I clean the hard water stains off the side (with a safe chemical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    created especially to clean aquariums... I do know about most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cleansers and soaps being lethal to fish), I'm thinking about dividing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the tank and putting Thai in a side that is about 5 gallons, and maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    even dividing again so that I can keep other aggressive fish. I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    keep about 25 gallons free for a community area, though. I don't want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the aquarium to look like a row of aquatic jail cells, lol. I could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have one hood and light for the whole tank that way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was speaking to my mother about the tanks she used to have, and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    built her own set of aquarium shelves out of 2x4s. I think I might do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that too. That way I can custom-build it to my needs, and even build
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    little shelves on the side the way my mom did for the air pumps, food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and other supplies to set on. I'd love to have multiple aquariums,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but I'll have to be patient- that isn't going to happen overnight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, this post is long enough with my imagining, lol.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You needn't feel dumb. Some folks still keep their bettas in bowls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You cared enough to give him a good home.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > loreleicosner <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I just got my first betta, which I know hardly counts as a tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > aquarium. I do have a 55-gallon aquarium, and I do plan to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    setting that up before too long. I'm already collecting supplies for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Anyway, my betta is happy, but cramped. I fell for the gimmick of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > buying him a little betta tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5212 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Signatures!! Off Topic NOT spam!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It mostly works for people who have an email checking program, hotmail, yahoo mail, etc., and can edit their signature through the options menu. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       if i knew how i would.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5213 From: Steve Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Starting with Aquariums Part VI
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I doubt you all have been hanging on the edge of your seats waiting for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      next installment. I was on vacation, and when we returned, we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      immediately called away for another week, and I am just getting caught up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      enough to continue the series.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Last time we talked some about substrates. Substrates are important because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they serve as a base for anything else that will be placed in the aquaria,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and, also, as a possible filtration media should you choose to use an under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel filter. While I was bringing myself back up to speed to continue this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      series, I noticed that I had failed to mention something about substrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that may affect the display in your tank. This is color. Your fish will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      display brighter or less bright colors depending, to a certain degree, on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the substrate. This is one reason why I prefer the "natural" color when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      using gravel. It is neither white nor black, and once the tank has been set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      up, including plants and lighting, it will have minimal effect on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      coloration of the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Let get on with the setup. By now, you should have a fairly good idea as to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      how you want to aquascape the tank. With all your reading, you've probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      run across several good ideas, and would want to make your tank look similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to one of them, or a combination of them. Aquascaping is an intensely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      personal decision, and I am not going to laugh at you for having neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      colors, the bubbling treasure chest along with the bubbling skull, etc. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that is your choice. However, on the other hand, I'll be more appreciative
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of a tank bulging with live plants, terraces, and such, especially if it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      done right.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The size of the tank does matter when it comes to aquascaping. Aquascaping a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank is very much different from aquascaping a 360 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      However, there are a few "rules" that can be applied to all tanks no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the size or the approach taken.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      First is that there should be a main focal point. This is an area that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      eye is drawn to immediately when the tank is first viewed. Many would tend
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to place this in the center of the front panel of the tank, but it really is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      something that should probably be placed slightly off center. It can be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      plant, a grouping of plants, a structure, or another feature in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For instance, if you are keeping a tank of rift lake cichlids, you may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      extensive rockwork in the tank. The focal point could be a grouping of rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that stands out from the rest, or some particularly striking rocks that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      worked into the structure. In a planted tank, it could be a "lawn: of dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      saggitarius, leading to a terrace that holds a magnificent aponogeton. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ever it is, it should be something the eye is drawn to when the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      viewed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am also a firm believer in open space for the fish to display themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This need not be a vertical space from the bottom of the tank to the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You can work it so that the fish who are bottom dwellers can have an area to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      display, those that occupy the mid-water levels can have their own space,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and the surface dwellers can have a space of their own as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      While you have the center piece mentioned above, you should also plan other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      areas of interest in the tank that are subordinate to the focal point so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that your eyes have elsewhere to travel in the tank. A half hidden piece of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      driftwood could be one, and also provide an area for your suckermouth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      catfish to display. Some rockwork could be another.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      These concepts are really kind of hard to put into words. You will need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      get a feel for them by looking at other tanks, and how they are done to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a feel for it. Go back through the literature you have collected at this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      point and look for tank photos. Online, a good source for photos and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      comments about planted tanks is the AGA site. This link will take you to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      page on their site that links to the last few yearly contests they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      held, and you can see some spectacular tanks on display. Each entry has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      several photos, a planting diagram, and comments from both the participant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      who made the submission, as well as judging comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As usual, I am open to comments, questions, and vegetables thrown my way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Until next time. . .

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.pvas.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5214 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several tanks w/ flourite (some have gravel mixed in with it) that are planted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also went the route of rinsing the flourite too well, as I didn't want the "cloud." And my 55 gallon tank was already stocked, so I had to move the fish out while I redid it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You remove your fish when you vacuum the gravel? If so, is there a reason for that? I may have missed something, sorry if that's the case. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Are you siphoning out water when you vacuum? (There are other kinds of products that don't.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll agree that in a somewhat heavily planted tank, you don't need to deeply siphon in the gravel. I just clean around/above the gravel when I am taking water out for water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you take your time and don't move the siphon around too much, it won't get too cloudy. I have gotten better at it, but even when I did stir it up, it would be clear the next day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can tell a distinct difference in what I clean up since I got plants, it is a lot less!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      55 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6 swordtails, 4 panda cories, 2 Juhli cories, 2 Ottos

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      20 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6 Dwarf Puffers, 1 Otto

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Swordtail Fry tank (6 total)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      divided-1m/1f betta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      5.5 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerald, the betta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      5 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 Platies (temporary)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      snail breeding tank (for puffers)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All tanks are planted and have ghost shrimp, still working on stocking tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5215 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thai, as in Thailand? :)  How about adding the betta to that 55 gallon tank until you decide what else to put in it, and then decide whether or not to keep him with the other fish.  Don't feel dumb, it isn't your fault.  All you have to do is watch tv and see these home decorating goofs use bettas like lamp shades and you will see why so many people think that is what they are for.  And the betta tanks were getting smaller every time they came out for a while.  At one point they were selling 1.5 cup containers for them, now they have a thing that holds about a quart that you put 2 bettas in.  If they sell them at a fish store, they must be good for keeping fish, right?...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I joined this list a few months back, but didn't have any fish, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've been on 'no mail' since about my second week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just got my first betta, which I know hardly counts as a tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium.  I do have a 55-gallon aquarium, and I do plan to be setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that up before too long.  I'm already collecting supplies for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Rather than spending a bundle all at once, I'm getting one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        items at a time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyway, my betta is happy, but cramped.  I fell for the gimmick of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buying him a little betta tank, and learned the next day that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        need at least a couple of gallons to be really happy.  It does make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sense... after all, if you have fins to spread, you need some room.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feel so dumb for not using my common sense.  I used to help my mom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with her tanks when I was younger, and I was reminded on another list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "one gallon of water per inch of fish".  My next supply will be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        larger tank for Thai (that's what I named the betta).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5216 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yep, Thai as in Thailand. I am going to put him in the 55 gal. in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        divided section that will give him approx. 5 gallons. I need to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        safe aquarium cleaner that will take the hard water stains off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sides (unless someone has another safe way to get them off).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I thank you for your suggestion, though. I love helpful groups like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this. I started to join another one, but saw from the messages that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some of the more knowledgable members were kind of talking down to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        newbies. I'm just trying to enjoy my fish, so that wasn't the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for me. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thai, as in Thailand? :) How about adding the betta to that 55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon tank until you decide what else to put in it,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5217 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Is this a good product to use?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is this aquarium cleaner any good?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Category_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for any advice you can give me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5218 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi, Lorelei...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Glad you "de-lurked" and jumped in! I'm very new here, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has been very helpful and friendly. It seems like a very, very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        place to be! I'm happy for Thai that he'll soon have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        place, and wish that ALL bettas could. Bettas are what started me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into this new passion....or obsession, as it were! I LOVE all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "loreleicosner"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yep, Thai as in Thailand. I am going to put him in the 55 gal. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > divided section that will give him approx. 5 gallons. I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > safe aquarium cleaner that will take the hard water stains off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sides (unless someone has another safe way to get them off).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I thank you for your suggestion, though. I love helpful groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this. I started to join another one, but saw from the messages
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some of the more knowledgable members were kind of talking down to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > newbies. I'm just trying to enjoy my fish, so that wasn't the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for me. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thai, as in Thailand? :) How about adding the betta to that 55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallon tank until you decide what else to put in it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5219 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: is this a pond group?...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Strange, the title page to the group mentions ponds once, but shows more of a concentration on aquariums of different types.  Did you specifically say to this person that this was a pond group? :)  Seems odd to me...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5220 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If this is a used tank it needs to be disinfected not just cleaned. Use bleach and rinse till you don't smell it anymore. Then use a dechlorinate found at your lfs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          loreleicosner <loreleicosner@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Is this aquarium cleaner any good?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Category_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for any advice you can give me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Lorelei



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5221 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks harry.. i have tried to figure out what is goign on have my moms bf that thinks he knows all about fish... and the prob is i dont have a test kit.. i have been waiting for my mom to get it for me for my bday which was months ago.. me major broke and it was what i told her i wanted... so i guess tom im and giogn to have to go and turn in my change and try and get something at petsmart... anyone got any suggestions... i know not knowing the water is hard to tell what is giogn on... but i was hoping i would get the kit before any issues arrived.. i am thinking mabye since my panda catfish died when i was gone that it and my mom overfeeding created a nitrate issue what do you think... i have posted a few in dept emails in the past few days mabye those make more sense as i am quit fluttered right now.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Go back to basics. Test the water. After a 50% water change. Post the results here with more info about your set-up. We will walk you thru the solution.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5222 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Vinegar and a razor blade are the two commonly mentioned methods to remove hard water stains.  Bettas aren't really aggressive, by the way.  They are more likely to be hurt than to hurt others.  So it would be a good idea to use a divider if you are going to get larger fish for that tank and keep Thai in there too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5223 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm glad I de-lurked, as well. I've thought about getting another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            betta, but they do well alone, and I'd love to have a community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            too. My friend at work has a community tank with a betta in it... I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wondering how Thai would react to other fish. I don't really have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            finances (or the heart) to 'experiment' with the other fish, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I want them all to be comfortable. After all, can you imagine being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stuffed into a bag (or a cup)... carted a looooooong way from where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you used to live, not to mention away from the place where you were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            comfortable, and then just getting dumped into a completely new and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            strange atmosphere? For most fish, they're probably thinking "wow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this is awesome", but of course, it's a change, and I can just imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a poor fish being bullied its first time in a new tank... it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            like being kidnapped and taken to Sea World and being thrown in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            shark tank. Not much fun at all for the fish who has to suffer. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            might only be a couple of dollars to me, but it's a matter of life and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            death to the fish. I've always been sensitive to animals' feelings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so keeping them as happy as possible is really important to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi, Lorelei...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Glad you "de-lurked" and jumped in! I'm very new here, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > has been very helpful and friendly. It seems like a very, very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > place to be! I'm happy for Thai that he'll soon have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > place, and wish that ALL bettas could. Bettas are what started me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > into this new passion....or obsession, as it were! I LOVE all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5224 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the tip, Harry. I'll do that this next week. It actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            has been used to house our tarantula before I put him in an X-Large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Kritter Keeper, and when we moved, I put my box turtle in it, and I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had crickets in there too. LOL, I'm just about ready to open a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            animal zoo. I was wondering about bleach, but wasn't going to risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            if there was any way it could harm the fish. I'm sensitive to bleach,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so I'll know when it's rinsed well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If this is a used tank it needs to be disinfected not just cleaned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Use bleach and rinse till you don't smell it anymore. Then use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dechlorinate found at your lfs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > loreleicosner <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Category_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5225 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: is this a pond group?/Why not ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As a moderator I can tell you I will accept and answer any questions on ponds. Or find you an answer. It is in the original "mission statement".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Strange, the title page to the group mentions ponds once, but shows more of a concentration on aquariums of different types.  Did you specifically say to this person that this was a pond group? :)  Seems odd to me...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5226 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi, Christina...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I didn't start to remove the fish at first, but this was the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            time I'd used the XL Python siphon, and what a HUGE difference from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the small one I'd been using. It sucked everything up SOOOO fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and was bringing up LOTS of YUCK from the bottom. I was horrified
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that the tank was that dirty, because it didn't look dirty! Anyway,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            since I only had six guppies, two platies, and some ghost shrimp in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the tank, it didn't seem like a big deal to move them out. I wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to put some flourite in, too....and try a few live plants. I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            save as much of the clear H2O as I could, and put it back in when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the project was finished. Took awhile, but all is well at this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            point. The fishies seem to be doing well. I think in the future,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll siphon off some water from the top to reduce the depth of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water, then clean like you are describing. Will save the "Goliath"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            XL Python for extreme cleaning...which I hope will be very seldom!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have several tanks w/ flourite (some have gravel mixed in with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it) that are planted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I also went the route of rinsing the flourite too well, as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            didn't want the "cloud." And my 55 gallon tank was already stocked,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so I had to move the fish out while I redid it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > You remove your fish when you vacuum the gravel? If so, is there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a reason for that? I may have missed something, sorry if that's the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            case. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Are you siphoning out water when you vacuum? (There are other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            kinds of products that don't.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'll agree that in a somewhat heavily planted tank, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            need to deeply siphon in the gravel. I just clean around/above the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gravel when I am taking water out for water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If you take your time and don't move the siphon around too much,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it won't get too cloudy. I have gotten better at it, but even when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I did stir it up, it would be clear the next day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I can tell a distinct difference in what I clean up since I got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            plants, it is a lot less!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 55 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 6 swordtails, 4 panda cories, 2 Juhli cories, 2 Ottos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 20 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 6 Dwarf Puffers, 1 Otto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Swordtail Fry tank (6 total)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > divided-1m/1f betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 5.5 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Gerald, the betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 5 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 2 Platies (temporary)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > snail breeding tank (for puffers)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > All tanks are planted and have ghost shrimp, still working on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stocking tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5227 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Vinegar is even safer than bleach, so I'll try that first. If I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            something stronger, I'll use the bleach. I wasn't thinking of larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish... more like mollies, swordtails, etc. I know that pretty much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any fish that aren't approximately the same size are either going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bully, or be bullied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Would you recommend a water heater? Most of the fish I'm going to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            getting thrive at around 78F. Also, what kind of filter would you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            recommend? Would a bio wheel be best? I've heard a lot of good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            things about them. Also, would you recommend live plants, and if so,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            how many and what kinds? Any and all tips would be helpful to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Even different tips from different people would help me see different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sides of the subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I LOVE this group! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Vinegar and a razor blade are the two commonly mentioned methods to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            remove hard water stains. Bettas aren't really aggressive, by the way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They are more likely to be hurt than to hurt others. So it would be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            good idea to use a divider if you are going to get larger fish for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that tank and keep Thai in there too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5228 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Trust me, I know EXACTLY how you feel! Hey...I rescue earthworms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            from the street after a hard rain! They make good additions to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            flower beds, too! I know that some might chop 'em up for fishie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            food, but it's very doubtful that this gal will ever be able to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that. I'm sticking to the good stuff in little boxes and bags,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "loreleicosner"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm glad I de-lurked, as well. I've thought about getting another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > betta, but they do well alone, and I'd love to have a community
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > too. My friend at work has a community tank with a betta in it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wondering how Thai would react to other fish. I don't really have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > finances (or the heart) to 'experiment' with the other fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I want them all to be comfortable. After all, can you imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stuffed into a bag (or a cup)... carted a looooooong way from where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you used to live, not to mention away from the place where you were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > comfortable, and then just getting dumped into a completely new and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > strange atmosphere? For most fish, they're probably thinking "wow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this is awesome", but of course, it's a change, and I can just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a poor fish being bullied its first time in a new tank... it would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like being kidnapped and taken to Sea World and being thrown in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shark tank. Not much fun at all for the fish who has to suffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > might only be a couple of dollars to me, but it's a matter of life
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > death to the fish. I've always been sensitive to animals'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            feelings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > so keeping them as happy as possible is really important to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi, Lorelei...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Glad you "de-lurked" and jumped in! I'm very new here, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > has been very helpful and friendly. It seems like a very, very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > place to be! I'm happy for Thai that he'll soon have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > place, and wish that ALL bettas could. Bettas are what started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > into this new passion....or obsession, as it were! I LOVE all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5229 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Have any of you used CLR for hard water deposits on glass? I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it w/ a couple of my betta containers, then rinsed them VERY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thoroughly. It worked GREAT.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "loreleicosner"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks for the tip, Harry. I'll do that this next week. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > has been used to house our tarantula before I put him in an X-Large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Kritter Keeper, and when we moved, I put my box turtle in it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > had crickets in there too. LOL, I'm just about ready to open a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > animal zoo. I was wondering about bleach, but wasn't going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > if there was any way it could harm the fish. I'm sensitive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bleach,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > so I'll know when it's rinsed well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > If this is a used tank it needs to be disinfected not just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cleaned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Use bleach and rinse till you don't smell it anymore. Then use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > dechlorinate found at your lfs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > loreleicosner <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Category_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5230 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            O.K. Just do the 50% water change. Only feed the fish once a day. Don't go by what you see on the flake container. Fish can go for two weeks without food. Ask your mom if she feeds the fish also. Excess nutrients are: light,dead plant leaves,fish waste, undiscovered dead fish,excess food and an uncleaned filter also failure to do a 20% water change once a week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thanks harry.. i have tried to figure out what is goign on have my moms bf that thinks he knows all about fish... and the prob is i dont have a test kit.. i have been waiting for my mom to get it for me for my bday which was months ago.. me major broke and it was what i told her i wanted... so i guess tom im and giogn to have to go and turn in my change and try and get something at petsmart... anyone got any suggestions... i know not knowing the water is hard to tell what is giogn on... but i was hoping i would get the kit before any issues arrived.. i am thinking mabye since my panda catfish died when i was gone that it and my mom overfeeding created a nitrate issue what do you think... i have posted a few in dept emails in the past few days mabye those make more sense as i am quit fluttered right now.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Go back to basics. Test the water. After a 50% water change. Post the results here with more info about your set-up. We will walk you thru the solution.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5231 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: To Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am fascinated with tarantulas. What kind do you have?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            loreleicosner <loreleicosner@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the tip, Harry.  I'll do that this next week.  It actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            has been used to house our tarantula before I put him in an X-Large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Kritter Keeper, and when we moved, I put my box turtle in it, and I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had crickets in there too.  LOL, I'm just about ready to open a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            animal zoo.  I was wondering about bleach, but wasn't going to risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            if there was any way it could harm the fish.  I'm sensitive to bleach,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so I'll know when it's rinsed well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If this is a used tank it needs to be disinfected not just cleaned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Use bleach and rinse till you don't smell it anymore. Then use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dechlorinate found at your lfs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > loreleicosner <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Category_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5232 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I might try the CLR. It didn't really work for me the last time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            used it, so I'm hesitant to try it again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, it's been a long day, so I'm off to bed, but I will be logging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on again tomorrow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            G'nite

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Have any of you used CLR for hard water deposits on glass? I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it w/ a couple of my betta containers, then rinsed them VERY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thoroughly. It worked GREAT.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "loreleicosner"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thanks for the tip, Harry. I'll do that this next week. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > has been used to house our tarantula before I put him in an X-Large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Kritter Keeper, and when we moved, I put my box turtle in it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > had crickets in there too. LOL, I'm just about ready to open a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > animal zoo. I was wondering about bleach, but wasn't going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > if there was any way it could harm the fish. I'm sensitive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bleach,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > so I'll know when it's rinsed well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > If this is a used tank it needs to be disinfected not just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cleaned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Use bleach and rinse till you don't smell it anymore. Then use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > dechlorinate found at your lfs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > loreleicosner <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Category_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5233 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Bettas in a comunity tank don't bother other fish they just try to kill other male bettas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            loreleicosner <loreleicosner@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm glad I de-lurked, as well.  I've thought about getting another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            betta, but they do well alone, and I'd love to have a community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            too.  My friend at work has a community tank with a betta in it... I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wondering how Thai would react to other fish.  I don't really have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            finances (or the heart) to 'experiment' with the other fish, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I want them all to be comfortable.  After all, can you imagine being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stuffed into a bag (or a cup)... carted a looooooong way from where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you used to live, not to mention away from the place where you were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            comfortable, and then just getting dumped into a completely new and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            strange atmosphere?  For most fish, they're probably thinking "wow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this is awesome", but of course, it's a change, and I can just imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a poor fish being bullied its first time in a new tank... it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            like being kidnapped and taken to Sea World and being thrown in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            shark tank.  Not much fun at all for the fish who has to suffer.  It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            might only be a couple of dollars to me, but it's a matter of life and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            death to the fish.  I've always been sensitive to animals' feelings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so keeping them as happy as possible is really important to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi, Lorelei...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Glad you "de-lurked" and jumped in!  I'm very new here, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > has been very helpful and friendly.  It seems like a very, very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > place to be!  I'm happy for Thai that he'll soon have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > place, and wish that ALL bettas could.  Bettas are what started me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > into this new passion....or obsession, as it were!  I LOVE all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5234 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've tried the vinegar thing and it didn't do much for me. I also tried the bleach thing and it was better, but still not a cure all.  It would kill anything left in the tank.  I ended up using Bleach and a razor blade as well as a scraper and a lot of work all in all it was well worth it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As far as your filter goes, I have used bio-wheels and non bio wheels and even UGF and if you used them right I think one is as good as the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: De-lurking

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Vinegar is even safer than bleach, so I'll try that first.  If I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            something stronger, I'll use the bleach.  I wasn't thinking of larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish... more like mollies, swordtails, etc.  I know that pretty much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any fish that aren't approximately the same size are either going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bully, or be bullied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Would you recommend a water heater?  Most of the fish I'm going to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            getting thrive at around 78F.  Also, what kind of filter would you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            recommend?  Would a bio wheel be best?  I've heard a lot of good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            things about them.  Also, would you recommend live plants, and if so,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            how many and what kinds?  Any and all tips would be helpful to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Even different tips from different people would help me see different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sides of the subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I LOVE this group! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Vinegar and a razor blade are the two commonly mentioned methods to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            remove hard water stains.  Bettas aren't really aggressive, by the way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They are more likely to be hurt than to hurt others.  So it would be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            good idea to use a divider if you are going to get larger fish for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that tank and keep Thai in there too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5235 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i think that i had excess dead plants most died or are on the way but i cleaned them out 3 days ago when i came home... she only feeds them when i tell her too and she fed them i guess jsut too much even though she knew how mcuh to feed them... and with that and the dead fish i think mabye all of this was the issue.. ill do that water test when i get the kit hopefully tom.. thanks shannon ps any idea on what to do with my rosy barb that is like birthing... or is that what she is diong looks like her underside is flaking off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            O.K. Just do the 50% water change. Only feed the fish once a day. Don't go by what you see on the flake container. Fish can go for two weeks without food. Ask your mom if she feeds the fish also. Excess nutrients are: light,dead plant leaves,fish waste, undiscovered dead fish,excess food and an uncleaned filter also failure to do a 20% water change once a week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5236 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Excess feeding can cause a lot of problems. It causes a tank to be unbalanced and can also lead to algae problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i think that i had excess dead plants most died or are on the way but i cleaned them out 3 days ago when i came home... she only feeds them when i tell her too and she fed them i guess jsut too much even though she knew how mcuh to feed them... and with that and the dead fish i think mabye all of this was the issue.. ill do that water test when i get the kit hopefully tom.. thanks shannon ps any idea on what to do with my rosy barb that is like birthing... or is that what she is diong looks like her underside is flaking off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            O.K. Just do the 50% water change. Only feed the fish once a day. Don't go by what you see on the flake container. Fish can go for two weeks without food. Ask your mom if she feeds the fish also. Excess nutrients are: light,dead plant leaves,fish waste, undiscovered dead fish,excess food and an uncleaned filter also failure to do a 20% water change once a week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry  


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5237 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Brown Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've having some problems with brown algae what can I do to fight this?  I'm doing 25% weekly water changes, feeding one time a day, changing the filter and media monthly and I can seem to stop it from coming.  Both my tanks are not in direct sunlight.  I leave the lights on the tank on about 14 hours aday, but that didn't seem to fix it either. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On a side note can someone tell me if when I first turn on the lights in my 10 gallon Black neon Tetra tank is it normal for there black stripe to be white?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5238 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i guess that must be what it was... i know she didnt do it on purpose... i was aslo thinking that it had to do with the flourish excel i bought and just had started putting in... but on the back of the bottle says it doesnt contain nitrates... so that wouldnt have been it right.. do you think i can still use it.. shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Excess feeding can cause a lot of problems. It causes a tank to be unbalanced and can also lead to algae problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5239 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Brown Algae/To Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Put your light on a timer. A cheap one from Walmart works. Just 12 hours a day. SAE will eat the brown algae. Algae is caused by excess nutrients. If you have live plants help them out compete the algae for the nutrients or find the excess nutrients. These are:light.dead leaves, dead fish, overfeeding, too many fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've having some problems with brown algae what can I do to fight this?  I'm doing 25% weekly water changes, feeding one time a day, changing the filter and media monthly and I can seem to stop it from coming.  Both my tanks are not in direct sunlight.  I leave the lights on the tank on about 14 hours aday, but that didn't seem to fix it either. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On a side note can someone tell me if when I first turn on the lights in my 10 gallon Black neon Tetra tank is it normal for there black stripe to be white?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Robb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5240 From: harry perry Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquariumtoo major/Regroup/flourish excel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I use it all the time. This is a puzzle you need to put the pieces together. If you think you have any pieces missing that's what we are here for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i guess that must be what it was... i know she didnt do it on purpose... i was aslo thinking that it had to do with the flourish excel i bought and just had started putting in... but on the back of the bottle says it doesnt contain nitrates... so that wouldnt have been it right.. do you think i can still use it.. shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Excess feeding can cause a lot of problems. It causes a tank to be unbalanced and can also lead to algae problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5241 From: Robin Fleener Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: New member
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello~! I am Robin, a 29 yo mom to 7 kids and owner of several fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            aquariums. I have a 29 gal w/Tetras (6 black neons, 5neons, and 6 glo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            lites), a blue apple snail and 4 ghost shrimp, a 29 gal w/2 small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            angel fish and 3 ghost shrimp, a 10 gal grow out tank w/red wag platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fry and a soon to be momma mickey mouse/twin bar platy, a 2 gal w/1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            male betta, a 1 gal w/a female crowntail betta and a small terrarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            w/a firebelly newt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I adore my fish and am looking for another 29 gal or larger tank to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            expand my collection!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Looking forward to talking w/everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Robin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5242 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Says it's safe, but indicates use on OUTSIDE aquarium, but says also it can be used on hoods, filters, frames and stands. Why it can be used on filters and hoods confuses me, since condensate/splash on hoods can deposit back into the tank, and water flowing through the filters will carry deposits back into the tank.  I don't want to presume the amount carried into the tank is so minimal, it's considered safe. On the other hand, they may be relating to the possibility/fact the tank is filled, and don't want you to try to use the stuff while there are/is fish/water in the tank, which is'nt too perceptive if the stuff is inherently safe. I'd stay away from it, 'till I learned through the ad/description as to whether it's safe or not. In an empty aquarium, vinegar can help dissolve calcium deposits. Just make absolutely sure the tank is perfectly rinsed afterwards. If any etching occurs during prolonged aquarium use, you'll have to live with it, though it's usually most visible on glass tank-tops, and restricts light that you may need for plants. (etching may seem like to calcium deposit, but is just that, as far as I know. Etched. (my guess is it's from acidification, or a combination of factors that leave apparent etching after the removal of calcium deposits) Jungle Labs (I'm not financially benefitting) makes a bunch of products, including 'Lime-away". Look up Jungle-Labs on GOOGLE if you're interested.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > egory_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5243 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            OMG, I Just wrote a BOOK a full story and confession! Knowing better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            after typing all of that..that I need to copy and paste incase I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            loose it..well in my attempts to copy...I somehow backpaged it and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            lost it all. HOW FRUSTRATING.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            will have to wait until tomorrow so I dont snap :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But Mostly thank you all for the great advice. I was just about to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            confess to! But in short Sammy the Oscar is almost 6 inches now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            pleco is the same. they are not "huge" but did grow a bit in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            past 4-5 months..and there are 6 smaller guys to...that is what I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            was confessing about...will have to wait for that one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in short I really didnt think I was over feeding, followed the rules
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and they esp Sammy seemed starving still...I really thought I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have been underfeeding. But the signs of over feeding and what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            going one makes a whole lot of sense.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Okay, must leave the computer before I toss it.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I will add a little more. I think I read a 55 gal. with an oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and a big pleco. How many fish are in this tank. what are their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sizes and how often are they fed? It sounds like excess nutrients
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            causing a bacteria bloom. A 50% water change is in order and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you need to figure out why or it will continue to happen. What is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the substrate? Live plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Steve <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > As Patrick said, water changes, but I am going to modify his a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Do an immediate 50% water change. Provided the water you are using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > test high for nitrates and nitrites. You are having a spike for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            some reason,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and once you have done the water change, you'll need to determine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > source, if you can. I noted that you did not have a test result
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > so I would ask you to check that before the water change--so you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > baseline, and then do all your nitrogen tests on a daily basis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            until things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stabilize.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The fact that you have an oscar in the tank, along with other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            inhabitants is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a big clue. If the oscar is large, you'll need to remove his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tankmates,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > because a 55 is a bare minimum for a full grown oscar. Oscars are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish. They eat a lot and produce prodigious amounts of waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ammonia ,so you need to have a filtration system that can handle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: hazyhumid2 [mailto:my-destiny@s...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Suffering Fish, need help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Back again for advice. All has been very well here (almost double
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > size since when we started this many months ago) then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was off the charts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Is a shade between well in the stress zone between 1.0 and 3.0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher of the mod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal range.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Fish are a little bit better but they are still very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > low, and not much of an appetite. The water is cloudy to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am lost, things were going so well. HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear) a few weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they are not exactly supposed to be in with Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > been for many months with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ps. I have to share my growing love for these guys. They really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me and we have routines, its so cute. Sammy sees me and runs to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > waiting to feed. I COULD feed him from my hand but I am not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yet. Its just cute how he knows me as the feeder and enjoys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            watching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me as much as I do him. The ??? Alge eater guy, not the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > one, the placo? he is huge and he also knows when I start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > feeding....he runs to the corner that I always drop his food, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > adorable...then he is shy about it/eating and waits until I move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > several feet away. Anyway, want to save them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5244 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bettas are what started me too.. i had one for like 3 years then gone another and another and another then decided once i know i would be stable for a while to get a tank.. well tongiht has been trying.. i havent cried like this before.. been really hard... but as my mom is tryign to tell me it is still worth it... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi, Lorelei...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Glad you "de-lurked" and jumped in!  I'm very new here, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            has been very helpful and friendly.  It seems like a very, very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            place to be!  I'm happy for Thai that he'll soon have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            place, and wish that ALL bettas could.  Bettas are what started me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            into this new passion....or obsession, as it were!  I LOVE all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5245 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            lorlei.. i bought a tank in a box with all the fixings for my first tank.... I did price comparissions and it was equal and it had all the stuff i needed... i would prolly on my next tank do the same... a heater as far as i know is necessary for all fish in a tank other than glodfish... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5246 From: questnjurny Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I will add a little more. I think I read a 55 gal. with an oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and a big pleco. How many fish are in this tank. what are their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sizes and how often are they fed? It sounds like excess nutrients
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > causing a bacteria bloom. A 50% water change is in order and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you need to figure out why or it will continue to happen. What is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the substrate? Live plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hmm, I thought I had read in another post that it was a 20 gal that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            was involved...but I could be very wrong, probably am. Regardless,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            more than one oscar in a 55 even is too much. They are very messy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish, and I agree with others, it sounds like your aquarium and fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are starting to show the signs of overcrowding.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I made the mistake when I first got my oscar and put him in a too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            small tank...at the tiem it seemed okay, a 33, but he never seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            happy and did the typical oscar sulk for about 2 weeks. I found him a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bigger tank, as well as an oscar buddy and a poopy pleco. Now the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            three of them live in a 90gal which is supposedly fine for the rest of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            their lives and all seem to be very happy! Though the O's are only 7"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and 2" (they are divided for teh time being) I keep imagining them at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            full size and have come to teh conclusion I am going to need a bigger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank...I am going to try to find them a 125. The great thing about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them still being small in a decent sized tank right now is that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            don't have to do water changes every week, only about every 3, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            even then nitrates never get above 10ppm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oscars will eat pretty much any time you want to feed them, and every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            time! Mine do a wonderful job of making me feel like I am starving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them to death,though I know I am not, so more likely than not he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            been putting on a good act of making you think he was hungry when he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is really getting enough to eat.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Make your life easier and get another tank for your other fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            leave the Oscar in the 55, if it is a 20 as I had thought, get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bigger tank asap! You will spend much less time changing water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fixing sick fish. As well, the fish will thank you for it, esp the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            little guys, the probably don't want to be eaten by Sammy!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oscars are awesome fish, I love my two, but they are a pain in how big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of a tank they need and how messy they can be. I wouldn't trade them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for anything though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in short I really didnt think I was over feeding, followed the rules
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and they esp Sammy seemed starving still...I really thought I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have been underfeeding. But the signs of over feeding and what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > going one makes a whole lot of sense.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Okay, must leave the computer before I toss it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            90gal 7" Tiger Oscar, 2" Lutino Oscar, Poopy pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            33gal green barbs (5), red tailed sharks (2), krib pair, columbian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tetras (6) and a weather loach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gal neons(4), white clouds (5), bolivian rams (2), julii cories (3)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and a pictus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gal 9 baby platies soon off to new homes, future dwarf puffer tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gal adult platies and new babies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 gal snail tank for future dwarf puffers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5247 From: paul helms Date: 9/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            some of them do go after anything with long fins, such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            as angels, guppies, fancy goldfish, and the like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Bettas in a comunity tank don't bother other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they just try to kill other male bettas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > loreleicosner <loreleicosner@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm glad I de-lurked, as well. I've thought about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > getting another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > betta, but they do well alone, and I'd love to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a community tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > too. My friend at work has a community tank with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > betta in it... I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wondering how Thai would react to other fish. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > don't really have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > finances (or the heart) to 'experiment' with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > other fish, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I want them all to be comfortable. After all, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you imagine being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stuffed into a bag (or a cup)... carted a looooooong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > way from where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you used to live, not to mention away from the place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > where you were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > comfortable, and then just getting dumped into a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > completely new and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > strange atmosphere? For most fish, they're probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thinking "wow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this is awesome", but of course, it's a change, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I can just imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a poor fish being bullied its first time in a new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank... it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like being kidnapped and taken to Sea World and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > being thrown in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shark tank. Not much fun at all for the fish who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > has to suffer. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > might only be a couple of dollars to me, but it's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > matter of life and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > death to the fish. I've always been sensitive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > animals' feelings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > so keeping them as happy as possible is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > important to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi, Lorelei...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Glad you "de-lurked" and jumped in! I'm very new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > here, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > has been very helpful and friendly. It seems like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a very, very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > place to be! I'm happy for Thai that he'll soon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > place, and wish that ALL bettas could. Bettas are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > what started me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > into this new passion....or obsession, as it were!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I LOVE all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5248 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can't you just "SAVE AS DRAFT", instead of doing the copy and paste ritual? Hitting one button is so much easier, and safer, if you need to remember to save a letter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joe P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > OMG, I Just wrote a BOOK a full story and confession! Knowing better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > after typing all of that..that I need to copy and paste incase I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > loose it..well in my attempts to copy...I somehow backpaged it and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > lost it all. HOW FRUSTRATING.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will have to wait until tomorrow so I dont snap :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > But Mostly thank you all for the great advice. I was just about to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > confess to! But in short Sammy the Oscar is almost 6 inches now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pleco is the same. they are not "huge" but did grow a bit in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > past 4-5 months..and there are 6 smaller guys to...that is what I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > was confessing about...will have to wait for that one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in short I really didnt think I was over feeding, followed the rules
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and they esp Sammy seemed starving still...I really thought I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have been underfeeding. But the signs of over feeding and what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > going one makes a whole lot of sense.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Okay, must leave the computer before I toss it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I will add a little more. I think I read a 55 gal. with an oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and a big pleco. How many fish are in this tank. what are their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sizes and how often are they fed? It sounds like excess nutrients
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > causing a bacteria bloom. A 50% water change is in order and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you need to figure out why or it will continue to happen. What is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the substrate? Live plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Steve wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > As Patrick said, water changes, but I am going to modify his a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Do an immediate 50% water change. Provided the water you are using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > test high for nitrates and nitrites. You are having a spike for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > some reason,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and once you have done the water change, you'll need to determine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > source, if you can. I noted that you did not have a test result
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > so I would ask you to check that before the water change--so you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > baseline, and then do all your nitrogen tests on a daily basis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > until things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > stabilize.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > The fact that you have an oscar in the tank, along with other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > inhabitants is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a big clue. If the oscar is large, you'll need to remove his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tankmates,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > because a 55 is a bare minimum for a full grown oscar. Oscars are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish. They eat a lot and produce prodigious amounts of waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ammonia ,so you need to have a filtration system that can handle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > From: hazyhumid2 [mailto:my-destiny@s...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Suffering Fish, need help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Back again for advice. All has been very well here (almost double
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > size since when we started this many months ago) then a drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > change yesterday. Little guys were hanging low at the bottom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > looking limp, not the same. Water test Nitrate was off the charts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > my kit. Picked up some stuff but something is still wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > My latest test..Using the Mardel Strips 5 in 1 test.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrate (NO3) ppm (mg/L)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Is a shade between 40/safe and 80/stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrite (NO2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Is a shade between well in the stress zone between 1.0 and 3.0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ppm Total Hardiness is matching Moderate 120 (higher of the mod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ppm total Alkalinity/Buffering Capacity is in between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > again...closer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to the 80 shade that/ add buffer up...and 120 ideal range.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > pH matches on the 7.2 ideal range.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Fish are a little bit better but they are still very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > sick as I am really attached to these guys now. They are hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > low, and not much of an appetite. The water is cloudy to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I am lost, things were going so well. HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 55gallon, switched to the bio wheel(from aquaclear) a few weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a good month maybe two now..from the, partial water change a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ago, Sammy is sad (Oscar) and cant disclose of the other fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > they are not exactly supposed to be in with Sammy...but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > been for many months with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ps. I have to share my growing love for these guys. They really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > me and we have routines, its so cute. Sammy sees me and runs to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > waiting to feed. I COULD feed him from my hand but I am not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yet. Its just cute how he knows me as the feeder and enjoys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > watching
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > me as much as I do him. The ??? Alge eater guy, not the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > one, the placo? he is huge and he also knows when I start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > feeding....he runs to the corner that I always drop his food, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > adorable...then he is shy about it/eating and waits until I move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > several feet away. Anyway, want to save them!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5249 From: Aranel Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm in something of a pickle. My cousin bought a gold gourami about a year ago. She didn't do any of her research though and he wound up killing any fish that she would put in with him. (He was in a ten and then five gallon tank.) After a while she stopped buying fish and put up her tanks. I thought he must have died (this was over six months ago) but I was wrong. He's been living in a small punch bowl! So last night while I was at her her house I said, "I'm going to steal your fish.". And I did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've never had a gourami of any kind before, so I'm not sure how to care for him. Right now he's in a ten gallon tank with three albino cory cats. There hasn't been any problems so far, but it's obvious he's going to need more room eventually. I'd say he's about three and half to four inches long, and I've read that they can be six inches! Also he looks really pale, though he's started to regain some of his color since last night. The water he was in was awful!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have a twenty-nine gallon tank with assorted mollies (sailfin, black, and balloon), a male betta, one neon tetra (I know, I know I need to get him some more friends.), and a couple of kinds of cory cats. The mollies have had a baby boom recently and there's about twenty of them hiding in there. (I'm going to be giving most of them away once they're older.) I've read that they can live with sailfin mollies but I'm hesitant to put him in there. Of course the betta would have to move out. I would like to get another 29 gallon tank, but that will probably be a long time before it can happen, due to space and money constraints.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So what should I do? Could I add him to the community tank in a few days after I remove the betta and the baby mollies? He was really aggressive in my cousins tanks but I figure that's because they were so small. Also, how long do these guys usually live?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5250 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major/Regroup

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Flourish excel if overdosed can also cause problems. As Harry suggested, carry on with large water changes and a good water conditioner along with melafix and things should start to appear better. Cease feeding for a few days until things start to look better or feed only once every 3 days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hope things get sorted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 20 September 2004 05:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] i have fish problems too major/Regroup

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i guess that must be what it was... i know she didnt do it on purpose... i was aslo thinking that it had to do with the flourish excel i bought and just had started putting in... but on the back of the bottle says it doesnt contain nitrates... so that wouldnt have been it right.. do you think i can still use it.. shannon :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Excess feeding can cause a lot of problems. It causes a tank to be unbalanced and can also lead to algae problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5251 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Usually gouramis are not overly aggressive but it does not mean that an individual cannot be as aggressive as African cichlids. Any fish that cares for their young has to be aggressive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Gold gouramis easily reach a size of 5” though I have sometimes seen some specimens at 6” as well but this is only when they are allowed to grow at their early age (first year). So 4.5” would be the maximum size I would assume for this one and it could also be worth trying to put him in a community tank and see how it goes. Gouramis can be very good community fish as well, obviously as you already have said, the betta will have to go out but mollys etc. should be fine. I will not trust a large gourami with molly fry that are less then 2 months old.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Aranel [mailto:aranel@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 20 September 2004 12:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Gold Gourami problems...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm in something of a pickle. My cousin bought a gold gourami about a year ago. She d idn 't do any of her research though and he wound up killing any fish that she would put in with him. (He was in a ten and then five gallon tank.) After a while she stopped buying fish and put up her tanks. I thought he must have died (this was over six months ago) but I was wrong. He's been living in a small punch bowl! So last night while I was at her her house I said, "I'm going to steal your fish.". And I did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've never had a gourami of any kind before, so I'm not sure how to care for him. Right now he's in a ten gallon tank with three albino cory cats. There hasn't been any problems so far, but it's obvious he's going to need more room eventually. I'd say he's about three and half to four inches long, and I've read that they can be six inches! Also he looks really pale, though he's started to regain some of his color since last night. The water he was in was awful!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have a twenty-nine gallon tank with assorted mollies (sailfin, black, and balloon), a male betta, one neon tetra (I know, I know I need to get him some more friends.), and a couple of kinds of cory cats. The mollies have had a baby boom recently and there's about twenty of them hiding in there. (I'm going to be giving most of them away once they're older.) I've read that they can live with sailfin mollies but I'm hesitant to put him in there. Of course the betta would have to move out. I would like to get another 29 gallon tank, but that will probably be a long time before it can happen, due to space and money constraints.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So what should I do? Could I add him to the community tank in a few days after I remove the betta and the baby mollies? He was really aggressive in my cousins tanks but I figure that's because they were so small. Also, how long do these guys usually live?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5252 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?/Try t...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Lorelei, Noticed that you plan to use a tank for fish that once housed your box turtle. While most people are not aware of it, it is generally understood in the aquarium trade that tanks that once used for reptiles (or small mammals) not be used for tropical fish. I believe the reason is that the concentrated waste impregnates the silicon sealant of the tank and keeps leaching out when filled with water, killing the fish. I once disregarded this recommendation and brought a 10 gallon tank which was given to me to a show to display a large Angelfish. I suspected the tank was used for something other than fish, as the top frame was a bit chewed; as such, I cleaned it out and rinsed it thoroughly. After being set up for about 1/2 hour at the show with the fish in it, the fish began to turn belly up. Luckily, I had set up 2 other 10 gallon tanks at the show for display and transferred the distressed fish to one of those tanks, so managed to save him. Am not advising you not to use the tank, but keep this in mind and be cautious, adding one or two expendable fish to the tank first after cycling the tank. LOL, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5253 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last time I vacuumed my gravel in the planted tank was probably... hmmm.. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            don’t recall ever doing it. I do however during water changes remove the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            large debris floating on the bottom but never really disturb the gravel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 19 September 2004 19:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Siphoning w/ live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >i'm glad you said that! i have a planted tank and realized that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >vacuuming the gravel was doing more harm that good, or so it seemed,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >but i've always felt guilty about not getting down into the gravel!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >On Sep 19, 2004, at 2:27 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>     I hardly ever vacuum the gravel in my tank.  It is full of stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> that plants need to grown on.  If you have a part of the tank where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> you don't plan to have plants you can vacuum it.  Vacuuming gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> isn't important when you have a planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >http://www.amaltheasattic.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5254 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think you should have stated at the start that you were trying to collate all the information in this long drawn out thread to try to bring it to an end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My question re your occupation was based on your use of biological terms, which constitute what I see as inaccuracies i.e. nitrosomonas do consume ammonia but the definition is SOIL bacteria, nitrobacter do consume nitrite but are also defined as SOIL bacteria, nitrogenous waste is defined as waste containing nitrogen in the form nitrate or proteins, the product of the aerobic bacteria not there nutrient. the slime you mention on bio wheels (also found on all bio filter surfaces although not so noticeable) is usually known as mulm and is the bacterial culture, if you clean it of you will vastly reduce the efficiency of the filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Finally and probably 'nit picking' your ref. to the bad stuff getting flushed away in river, this may be true at the source but any other point what is flushed away downstream is replaced from upstream otherwise OK. My ref. to advertising when I looked properly I see you were only plugging your local club and interests, my apologies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    unclenorm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Please point out said inaccuracies in my post. As others on the list have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            seen, I f I am wrong, I am glad to accept correction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Should I lay claim to be more than a mere hobbyist, it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            presented in my post. I have presented my credentials on this list before,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and when appropriate will present them again, which is far more than many on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this list do, but I do not read any special knowledge into their posts as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you seem to be doing with mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The post is an attempt to sort out a long and wandering thread, with many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sub-threads to put the topic into a form that is easy to understand and also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to toss in some comments of my own, hopefully to clarify the subject to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            those who are reading and may be finding themselves lost.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Since I never did receive a copy of the message I sent, I don't know what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you mean about the advertising at the end, other than the usual appended by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yahoo!, which in my original message should have been much shorter than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            those who write their messages in HTML.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you mean my tag, that is a normal tag at the end. I've not seen you take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            others who use, sometime elaborate, tags as their signature on this list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            None of the sites promoted are commercial sites, as I see in some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            other tags, so why bother to complain, since there is no rule prohibiting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tags of any kind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, the post was a bit long. The topic at hand is not a simple topic. Books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have been written on this topic. If you wish a simple answer to the question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that was originally asked, get a filter that suits your needs. There you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have it. Run with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I await your dissection of the alleged inaccuracies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Tell me why do you find it necessary to write such a huge post when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            all you have done is repeat what has already been said, with a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            inaccuracies thrown in, do you claim to be a marine biologist ?, and why the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            attempt at free advertising at the end?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. sponge filters;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. bio-wheel attachments; and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3. Undergravel filters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The main topic seems to be ammonia and nitrite removal and which do the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ---------------------------<snip>--------------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5255 From: shortlid Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks (Joel)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you know if it will effect the Tetras, Barbs, or Gourmies in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I have read allot of places that it is a good idea to a very small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >amount of seasalt at every water change to a freash water tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >aquarium. It helps keep teh Plattes and Mollies healthy??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I use aquarium salt in my freshwater tank, and I have only platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mollies. The mollies really enjoy the salt in the water ... and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > seem to be doing well also. The general recommendation for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            freshwater tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is 1 tablespoons for each 5 gallons of water. I choose to add a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            little bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > more than that for my tank, about a teaspoon or so in addition to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > package recommendations. It is supposed to improve their gill and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bladder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > function. It also helps to keep the mollies from getting fungus ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a big problem for black mollies specifically.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Journal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5256 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks (Joel)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Some tetras may not like salt in the water but small amounts (1tsp per 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gallon) will not effect them. Barbs and gouramis will have no effect of even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            higher concentrations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 20 September 2004 15:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: salt in mollie/platy tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >(Joel)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Do you know if it will effect the Tetras, Barbs, or Gourmies in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> > I have read allot of places that it is a good idea to a very small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >amount of seasalt at every water change to a freash water tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >aquarium. It helps keep teh Plattes and Mollies healthy??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I use aquarium salt in my freshwater tank, and I have only platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> mollies. The mollies really enjoy the salt in the water ... and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> seem to be doing well also. The general recommendation for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >freshwater tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> is 1 tablespoons for each 5 gallons of water. I choose to add a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >little bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> more than that for my tank, about a teaspoon or so in addition to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> package recommendations. It is supposed to improve their gill and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >bladder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> function. It also helps to keep the mollies from getting fungus ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> a big problem for black mollies specifically.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Journal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5257 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Brown Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, tetras lose their colors when the lights are out and it takes about 10-30 minutes to get them back when the lights come on. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On a side note can someone tell me if when I first turn on the lights in my 10 gallon Black neon Tetra tank is it normal for there black stripe to be white?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5258 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: thanks nim i have fish problems too major/Regroup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks you always help me out.. but i was wondering what you meant by good water conditioner.. i use filtered well water and dont know about conditioner do i need to be adding that to my ritual... i didnt th ink i put to much flourish in i did the full cap the first day then half the next two days.. i didnt feed or add that in yesterday and i wont till i get things resettled... and what is the melafix that is something else i dont know about... thanks so much shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Flourish excel if overdosed can also cause problems. As Harry suggested, carry on with large water changes and a good water conditioner along with melafix and things should start to appear better. Cease feeding for a few days until things start to look better or feed only once every 3 days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hope things get sorted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5259 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Suffering Fish, help again./how many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think they meant that they were writing in from the internet and not their email.  There is no save draft when writing in from the yahoo group web site.  I also copy the text sometimes in case I lose it...saves so many problems most of the time.  By the way, I refer to them as "they" and "them" because I didn't see a name to determine he or she.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5260 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Siphoning w/ live plants...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a Python Fill n Spill (I think that's the name), that I use for my 55 gallon tank. I tend to use a smaller siphon and buckets for the others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You can adjust the flow on the Python (at least I can on the one I have).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                When I changed substrate in my 55, I pulled out as much water as I could, kept the fish and water in a storage container w/ the filters running. It wasn't as messy as I thought it would be, but it took some time!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The flourite will make 'clouds' when it is stirred up, it just gets easier w/ experience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What kind of plants do you have?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5261 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: thanks nim i have fish problems too major/Regroup

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What filter do you have on the well water? Well water can still contain some contaminants and maybe things like urea and high nitrates if there is a farm near by. It depends how you filter the well water.. maybe it is filtering too much or too little.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Water conditioners are a good good thing always even if you have non chlorinated water as many of them add vitamins and other things to the water that benefit fish. Aquasafe and Stress coat are one of the best water conditioners besides some other good ones. I will still continue to add these even in well water to be on the safe side.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What size tank do you have? ½ cap of excel I think could be too much for a 29 gallon tank. I will have to read the instructions on my bottle as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 20 September 2004 15:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] thanks nim i have fish problems too major/Regroup

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks you always help me out.. but i was wondering what you meant by good water conditioner.. i use filtered well water and dont know about conditioner do i need to be adding that to my ritual... i d idn t th ink i put to much flourish in i did the full cap the first day then half the next two days.. i d idn t feed or add that in yesterday and i wont till i get things resettled... and what is the melafix that is something else i dont know about... thanks so much shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Flourish excel if overdosed can also cause problems. As Harry suggested, carry on with large water changes and a good water conditioner along with melafix and things should start to appear better. Cease feeding for a few days until things start to look better or feed only once every 3 days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hope things get sorted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5262 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Brown Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks thats good to know.  When I saw this for the first time I thought something was wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 8:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Brown Algae

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, tetras lose their colors when the lights are out and it takes about 10-30 minutes to get them back when the lights come on. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On a side note can someone tell me if when I first turn on the lights in my 10 gallon Black neon Tetra tank is it normal for there black stripe to be white?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5263 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: i have fish problems too major
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, Would have posted to you sooner but had some PC problems. As you first stated several days ago, it appeared as if there was some overfeeding. I see you are now making water changes (30% to 50% wouldn't be too much) to correct this situation. I believe that your fish may have been stressed however, due to less than ideal water conditions. You first mentioned the Rasbora (actually a Carp/Minnow not a Tetra) was pregnate as it appeared swollen, with you Bleeding Heart Tetra having black spots in the fins. Now you're saying that your Rosy Barb appears pregnate. Both the Rasbora and the Rosy Barb are egglayers (not livebearers) and do not become pregnate, but lay eggs instead. It is possible that they could become eggbound and swollen as a result, but more probable that they have developed "bloat" or Dropsy meaning that they have an internal infection (possibly in the swim bladder) which usually comes from poor water conditions. The prognosis unfortunately is usual fatal, but an occassional cure is sometimes effected. While the disease is not contagious, its best to transfer the fish to a hospital tank, especially if you have plants. You mentioned that stuff is coming off of these fish. Could be they are losing scales; with Dropsy, the scales will stand out away from the body nd start to fall off. This disease is also less known as "Pinecone Disease" because of this. It is also possible that they may just be constipated. Try gradually adding 3 tsp. non-iodized salt per gallon along with 2 tsp. epsom salt per 10 gallons. The addition of a skin absorbing antibiotic such as kanamycin can't hurt. No guarantees, but its worth a try. As for the Bleeding Heart Tetra, there is a disease called Black Spot Disease which is rather rare. It requires 3 hosts to complete its life cycle (fish, snails and fish-eating birds). If you have snails, it may have been introduced with them, or just may have been already with the fish when you bought it and is now growing. If that is what it is (can't really say without seeing the fish), it usually does no harm and is not infectious, but of course is unsightly. An old cure is with bathing the fish in a bath of a solution of picric acid for about an hour, but I don't know if that's available anymore and I don't know of any present medications that would cure it. Many times these spots go away by themselves. Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5264 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my mother called me over the weekend to tell me we were adopting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                goldfish and a catfish from a friend and i said ok, figuring that we'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                keep the goldfish indoors until spring and then release them into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pond with our other fish to ensure that they both make it through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                winter and don't infect our koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                when i got home, i looked in the holding tank and the catfish in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albino cory cat! the poor thing has been kept in the cold, alone with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                these goldfish for god knows how long. i'm going to be putting him in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my tropical 55 gallon where i'm sure he'll be happier, but can anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                give me any acclimation tips for a fish that's been kept like this for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so long? is this transfer going to do more harm than good? he's sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in a container of mixed water (his old water and some of the new tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water) floating in the big tank right now and he looks like he's doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                alright (though he's a little thin.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5265 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: thanks nim i have fish problems too majo...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks again nim.. i went with the directions on the bottom of the bottle.. says i capful first day and 1/2 everday or everyother day after... i didnt realize stress coat was a conditioner i use that.. i just usually only use it when i see a fish being weird or before and after water changes.. how much should i be adding when diong water changes for a 20 gallon tank... well i do live on a farm i dont know what kind of filter is on the tap water. it is only on half the sink for extra cold or extra hot water so it isnt necessary just a perk thingy... so ill wait to hear from you about the excel and stress coat.. hope everyone is having a good day.. im trying to be calm shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What filter do you have on the well water? Well water can still contain some contaminants and maybe things like urea and high nitrates if there is a farm near by. It depends how you filter the well water.. maybe it is filtering too much or too little.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Water conditioners are a good good thing always even if you have non chlorinated water as many of them add vitamins and other things to the water that benefit fish. Aquasafe and Stress coat are one of the best water conditioners besides some other good ones. I will still continue to add these even in well water to be on the safe side.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What size tank do you have? ½ cap of excel I think could be too much for a 29 gallon tank. I will have to read the instructions on my bottle as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5266 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do exactly what you are doing, but take at least an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hour for the acclimation. add a little tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                every 10 minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my mother called me over the weekend to tell me we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > were adopting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > goldfish and a catfish from a friend and i said ok,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > figuring that we'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > keep the goldfish indoors until spring and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > release them into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pond with our other fish to ensure that they both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > make it through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > winter and don't infect our koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > when i got home, i looked in the holding tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the catfish in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albino cory cat! the poor thing has been kept in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cold, alone with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > these goldfish for god knows how long. i'm going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be putting him in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my tropical 55 gallon where i'm sure he'll be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > happier, but can anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > give me any acclimation tips for a fish that's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > kept like this for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so long? is this transfer going to do more harm than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > good? he's sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in a container of mixed water (his old water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > some of the new tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water) floating in the big tank right now and he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looks like he's doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > alright (though he's a little thin.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Adornments....
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5267 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is, the catfish IS an albino cory cat...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                typos. bah.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:44 PM, amalthea23 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my mother called me over the weekend to tell me we were adopting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > goldfish and a catfish from a friend and i said ok, figuring that we'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > keep the goldfish indoors until spring and then release them into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pond with our other fish to ensure that they both make it through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > winter and don't infect our koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > when i got home, i looked in the holding tank and the catfish in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albino cory cat! the poor thing has been kept in the cold, alone with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > these goldfish for god knows how long. i'm going to be putting him in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my tropical 55 gallon where i'm sure he'll be happier, but can anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > give me any acclimation tips for a fish that's been kept like this for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so long? is this transfer going to do more harm than good? he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in a container of mixed water (his old water and some of the new tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water) floating in the big tank right now and he looks like he's doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > alright (though he's a little thin.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5268 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ok, thanks paul! i feel so badly for the little guy! i don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                kill him with kindness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                also, should i get him a little friend? i know they're social, but he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                been alone for so long. i have some other bottom feeders who are pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                friendly on an inter-species level, perhaps they'll mingle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:51 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > do exactly what you are doing, but take at least an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hour for the acclimation.  add a little tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > every 10 minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > my mother called me over the weekend to tell me we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > were adopting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > goldfish and a catfish from a friend and i said ok,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > figuring that we'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > keep the goldfish indoors until spring and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > release them into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > pond with our other fish to ensure that they both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > make it through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > winter and don't infect our koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > when i got home, i looked in the holding tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the catfish in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > albino cory cat! the poor thing has been kept in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cold, alone with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > these goldfish for god knows how long. i'm going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > be putting him in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > my tropical 55 gallon where i'm sure he'll be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > happier, but can anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > give me any acclimation tips for a fish that's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > kept like this for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > so long? is this transfer going to do more harm than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > good? he's sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in a container of mixed water (his old water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > some of the new tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > water) floating in the big tank right now and he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > looks like he's doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > alright (though he's a little thin.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5269 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there is no need to remove the betta from the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bettas do just fine with most gourami species. he may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eat the babies, and you are right they do need to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                removed,, but the betta may eat them as well. many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my customers have bettas in with their cosby and gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gouramis, with no problems. you may want to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                another gold of about the same size. i have found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are rarely aggressive when placed in evn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                numbered groups of four or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi everyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm in something of a pickle. My cousin bought a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gold gourami about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > year ago. She didn't do any of her research though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and he wound up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > killing any fish that she would put in with him. (He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was in a ten and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > then five gallon tank.) After a while she stopped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > buying fish and put up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > her tanks. I thought he must have died (this was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > over six months ago)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but I was wrong. He's been living in a small punch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bowl! So last night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > while I was at her her house I said, "I'm going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > steal your fish.".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And I did.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I've never had a gourami of any kind before, so I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not sure how to care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for him. Right now he's in a ten gallon tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > three albino cory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cats. There hasn't been any problems so far, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it's obvious he's going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to need more room eventually. I'd say he's about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > three and half to four
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > inches long, and I've read that they can be six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > inches! Also he looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > really pale, though he's started to regain some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > his color since last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > night. The water he was in was awful!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have a twenty-nine gallon tank with assorted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mollies (sailfin, black,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and balloon), a male betta, one neon tetra (I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I know I need to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > him some more friends.), and a couple of kinds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cory cats. The mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have had a baby boom recently and there's about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > twenty of them hiding in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > there. (I'm going to be giving most of them away
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > once they're older.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I've read that they can live with sailfin mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but I'm hesitant to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > put him in there. Of course the betta would have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > move out. I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > like to get another 29 gallon tank, but that will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > probably be a long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > time before it can happen, due to space and money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constraints.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > So what should I do? Could I add him to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > community tank in a few days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > after I remove the betta and the baby mollies? He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was really aggressive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in my cousins tanks but I figure that's because they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > were so small.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Also, how long do these guys usually live?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5270 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the cori's do really wellin groups of 3 or more, and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                always prefer to let them have friends, whether they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are all albinos or not is of little consequence. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                currently have 3 green, three albino, and 3 peppered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in with my 2 kuhli's and 2 clown loaches, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is happy, but the cori definately get more active with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                their own kind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ok, thanks paul! i feel so badly for the little guy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > kill him with kindness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > also, should i get him a little friend? i know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they're social, but he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > been alone for so long. i have some other bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > feeders who are pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > friendly on an inter-species level, perhaps they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mingle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:51 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > do exactly what you are doing, but take at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hour for the acclimation.� add a little tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > every 10 minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > my mother called me over the weekend to tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > were adopting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > goldfish and a catfish from a friend and i said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ok,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > figuring that we'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > keep the goldfish indoors until spring and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > release them into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > pond with our other fish to ensure that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > make it through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > winter and don't infect our koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > when i got home, i looked in the holding tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the catfish in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > albino cory cat! the poor thing has been kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cold, alone with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > these goldfish for god knows how long. i'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > be putting him in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > my tropical 55 gallon where i'm sure he'll be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > happier, but can anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > give me any acclimation tips for a fish that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > kept like this for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > so long? is this transfer going to do more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > good? he's sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > in a container of mixed water (his old water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > some of the new tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water) floating in the big tank right now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > looks like he's doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > alright (though he's a little thin.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5271 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RAY [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] i have fish problems too maj
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wow that is some awsome information and much appreciated.. there is a few errors that were prolly my fault but i wanted to clarify jsut to make sure i do the write thing... my ROSY BARB is gone.. it didnt make it.. but what i thought was a rosy barb was the rasboro tetra and now i am clueless as to what the heck the name of these other two fish are and these are the fish or one of them that looks preggo or more so now the disease you mentioned... so as for a description fo rthe fish that is sick/preggo it is small about a inch just a big fatter than a grown neon tetra.... it is mostly orange with a very prominant black triangle on it back section... im going to petsmart tonight so ill try and find the proper name... all the fish left in the tank in cluding the mystery pair seem fine.. well wait i lied.. the algae eater seems to not be eating and his eyes are very blood shot.. and he seems to have a redline above his fin which im guessing is from terrorizing the other fish as he does on occasion... but other than that all seem fine.. thanks in advance for your help and everyones help.. im learning so much more than i ever though was possible.. i knwo i am not getting a bigger tank till i perfect this one lol.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, Would have posted to you sooner but had some PC problems. As you first stated several days ago, it appeared as if there was some overfeeding. I see you are now making water changes (30% to 50% wouldn't be too much) to correct this situation. I believe that your fish may have been stressed however, due to less than ideal water conditions. You first mentioned the Rasbora (actually a Carp/Minnow not a Tetra) was pregnate as it appeared swollen, with you Bleeding Heart Tetra having black spots in the fins. Now you're saying that your Rosy Barb appears pregnate. Both the Rasbora and the Rosy Barb are egglayers (not livebearers) and do not become pregnate, but lay eggs instead. It is possible that they could become eggbound and swollen as a result, but more probable that they have developed "bloat" or Dropsy meaning that they have an internal infection (possibly in the swim bladder) which usually comes from poor water conditions. The prognosis unfortunately is usual fatal, but an occassional cure is sometimes effected. While the disease is not contagious, its best to transfer the fish to a hospital tank, especially if you have plants. You mentioned that stuff is coming off of these fish. Could be they are losing scales; with Dropsy, the scales will stand out away from the body nd start to fall off. This disease is also less known as "Pinecone Disease" because of this. It is also possible that they may just be constipated. Try gradually adding 3 tsp. non-iodized salt per gallon along with 2 tsp. epsom salt per 10 gallons. The addition of a skin absorbing antibiotic such as kanamycin can't hurt. No guarantees, but its worth a try. As for the Bleeding Heart Tetra, there is a disease called Black Spot Disease which is rather rare. It requires 3 hosts to complete its life cycle (fish, snails and fish-eating birds). If you have snails, it may have been introduced with them, or just may have been already with the fish when you bought it and is now growing. If that is what it is (can't really say without seeing the fish), it usually does no harm and is not infectious, but of course is unsightly. An old cure is with bathing the fish in a bath of a solution of picric acid for about an hour, but I don't know if that's available anymore and I don't know of any present medications that would cure it. Many times these spots go away by themselves. Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5272 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ok, maybe later today i'll go pick him up a couple of friends. they had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                some really nice coris at the new fish store i found near my house. is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it ok that he's so thin? i've never had a cory before, but the others
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i've seen have been more "meaty" than this one. i suppose he was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fighting goldfish for food though, and being so small, he couldn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                been getting much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 20, 2004, at 2:01 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the cori's do really wellin groups of 3 or more, and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > always prefer to let them have friends, whether they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are all albinos or not is of little consequence. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > currently have 3 green, three albino, and 3 peppered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in with my 2 kuhli's and 2 clown loaches, and everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is happy, but the cori definately get more active with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > their own kind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> ok, thanks paul! i feel so badly for the little guy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> i don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> kill him with kindness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> also, should i get him a little friend? i know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> they're social, but he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> been alone for so long. i have some other bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> feeders who are pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> friendly on an inter-species level, perhaps they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> mingle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> On Sep 20, 2004, at 1:51 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>> do exactly what you are doing, but take at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>> hour for the acclimation.  add a little tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>> every 10 minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>> paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>> --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> my mother called me over the weekend to tell me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> were adopting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> goldfish and a catfish from a friend and i said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> ok,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> figuring that we'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> keep the goldfish indoors until spring and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> release them into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> pond with our other fish to ensure that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> make it through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> winter and don't infect our koi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> when i got home, i looked in the holding tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> the catfish in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> albino cory cat! the poor thing has been kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> cold, alone with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> these goldfish for god knows how long. i'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> be putting him in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> my tropical 55 gallon where i'm sure he'll be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> happier, but can anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> give me any acclimation tips for a fish that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> kept like this for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> so long? is this transfer going to do more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> good? he's sitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> in a container of mixed water (his old water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> some of the new tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> water) floating in the big tank right now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> looks like he's doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> alright (though he's a little thin.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>> http://www.amaltheasattic.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5273 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: major fish problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Your chances of perfecting a tank go up at a greater rate as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank gets bigger. It is possible to one day perfect the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank, but I would have to say it isn't as likely as perfecting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank that is only 10 - 20 gallons larger. I forget, is this a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon or a 20 gallon? If it is a 10 gallon there is little chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of perfecting it without a lot of work, and a 20 would have better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chances. Perfecting a 29 gallon tank would take less work for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                same fish, and perfecting a 55 gallon tank would take no work for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the same fish. I suggest looking in papers for used tanks being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sold cheap. Yard sales are good places to look. Fish stores can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sometimes point you at a used tank. Might be a good idea to ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them to fill it with water first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Signature missing because this was posted on-line...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Wow that is some awsome information and much appreciated.. there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > errors that were prolly my fault but i wanted to clarify jsut to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                make sure i do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the write thing... my ROSY BARB is gone.. it didnt make it.. but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what i thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was a rosy barb was the rasboro tetra and now i am clueless as to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > heck the name of these other two fish are and these are the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                or one of them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that looks preggo or more so now the disease you mentioned... so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > description fo rthe fish that is sick/preggo it is small about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                inch just a big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fatter than a grown neon tetra.... it is mostly orange with a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                prominant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > black triangle on it back section... im going to petsmart tonight
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so ill try and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > find the proper name... all the fish left in the tank in cluding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the mystery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pair seem fine.. well wait i lied.. the algae eater seems to not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be eating and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > his eyes are very blood shot.. and he seems to have a redline
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                above his fin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which im guessing is from terrorizing the other fish as he does on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                occasion...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but other than that all seem fine.. thanks in advance for your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                help and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > everyones help.. im learning so much more than i ever though was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                possible.. i knwo i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > am not getting a bigger tank till i perfect this one lol.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5274 From: crickit99 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a lot of debate on Cory Cats and schooling. Some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                say different varieties will school together, and more probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                disagree (or so it seems).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My personal experience.... I started out w/ 2 Pandas and 2 Juhlis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They all hung out together some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I then added 2 more of each a few weeks later (and 1 of the Juhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                didn't make it from the original group). At this point, I noticed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                distinct difference in behavior from the Pandas, the 4 started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                schooling and doing everything together.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At this point, I have 5 Pandas and 3 Juhlis. I had 6 Pandas, but 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                didn't make it. When I had the 6, they would swim all over the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                together, play together, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From what I have seen, I am a big fan of having at least 4 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                same variety. Their behavior is very different, even in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difference of having 4 vs 6. I'm planning on 6 of each.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All fish have different personalities, but I would get a few more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albinos if you tank can handle it. What size tank do you have, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what sort of bottom dwellers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cories are a LOT of fun.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5275 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: major fish problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ok gotcha... well since i dont know where ill be living come june i guess i have to stick with this one... for now... but i think it woiuld help to get another samller tank for like hostipal or whatnot... and my tank is a 20 gallon.. thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Your chances of perfecting a tank go up at a greater rate as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank gets bigger.  It is possible to one day perfect the current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank, but I would have to say it isn't as likely as perfecting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank that is only 10 - 20 gallons larger.  I forget, is this a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon or a 20 gallon?  If it is a 10 gallon there is little chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of perfecting it without a lot of work, and a 20 would have better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chances.  Perfecting a 29 gallon tank would take less work for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                same fish, and perfecting a 55 gallon tank would take no work for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the same fish.  I suggest looking in papers for used tanks being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sold cheap.  Yard sales are good places to look.  Fish stores can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sometimes point you at a used tank.  Might be a good idea to ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them to fill it with water first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Signature missing because this was posted on-line...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5276 From: Aranel Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Gold gouramis easily reach a size of 5” though I have sometimes seen some specimens at 6” as well but this is only when they are allowed to grow at their early age (first year). So 4.5” would be the maximum size I would assume for this one and it could also be worth trying to put him in a community tank and see how it goes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok. I think I'll try that either today or tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <> Gouramis can be very good community fish as well, obviously as you already have said, the betta will have to go out but mollys etc. should be fine. I will not trust a large gourami with molly fry that are less then 2 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                </ >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah, this boy has eaten molly fry before. (I had given some to my cousin and she foolishly put them into his tank. Not one got away.) Really though, I don't think I'll mind having something in there that will eat some of the fry. They've had so many recently I'm worried about space and inbreeding. I'll catch as many as I can though. Frankly I'm surprised my betta didn't eat any, but he ignores them. Thanks for your advice!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5277 From: Aranel Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > there is no need to remove the betta from the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bettas do just fine with most gourami species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hum, well I'd rather not take the chance. My betta is my favorite fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and I'd rather him not get killed or hurt when I can just move him into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                his own little ten gallon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > he may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eat the babies, and you are right they do need to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > removed,, but the betta may eat them as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah, I figured he would, but he's never shown even a passing interest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in the mollie fry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my customers have bettas in with their cosby and gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gouramis, with no problems. you may want to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > another gold of about the same size.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What about blue gouramis? They're the same kind of fish right? Just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                different color?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i have found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that they are rarely aggressive when placed in evn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > numbered groups of four or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5278 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i have kuhli loaches and some pictus cats, as well as red tailed sharks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                though they keep pretty high up in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 20, 2004, at 3:08 PM, crickit99 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > There is a lot of debate on Cory Cats and schooling.  Some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > say different varieties will school together, and more probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > disagree (or so it seems).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My personal experience.... I started out w/ 2 Pandas and 2 Juhlis. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > They all hung out together some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I then added 2 more of each a few weeks later (and 1 of the Juhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > didn't make it from the original group).  At this point, I noticed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > distinct difference in behavior from the Pandas, the 4 started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > schooling and doing everything together.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > At this point, I have 5 Pandas and 3 Juhlis.  I had 6 Pandas, but 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > didn't make it.   When I had the 6, they would swim all over the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > together, play together, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From what I have seen, I am a big fan of having at least 4 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > same variety.  Their behavior is very different, even in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > difference of having 4 vs 6.  I'm planning on 6 of each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > All fish have different personalities, but I would get a few more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albinos if you tank can handle it.  What size tank do you have, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what sort of bottom dwellers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cories are a LOT of fun. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5279 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Blue gourami, gold gourami, cosby gourami, 3 spot gourami etc. are basically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the same species. The other common different species are Dwarf gouramis:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                various species and colour strains, kissing gourami, pearl gourami, snake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                skinned gourami etc. Normally they can go well with a betta if kept in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pair but an aggressive single male gourami of any type (except kissing and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pearl as they IMO are the most peaceful) may not go well with a betta... but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                then again, it might. If it considers the betta a competition or a threat,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                he will retaliate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Betas on the other hand have been given a bad name as fry eaters etc. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will eat the fry they can. So will any other fish. By can I mean that if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fry are fast enough to escape a betta, then obviously he cannot eat them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mostly this is the case. So maybe he gave up trying to chase and eat the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                molly fry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: Aranel [mailto:aranel@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 20 September 2004 21:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> there is no need to remove the betta from the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> bettas do just fine with most gourami species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Hum, well I'd rather not take the chance. My betta is my favorite fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >and I'd rather him not get killed or hurt when I can just move him into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >his own little ten gallon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> he may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> eat the babies, and you are right they do need to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> removed,, but the betta may eat them as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Yeah, I figured he would, but he's never shown even a passing interest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >in the mollie fry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> my customers have bettas in with their cosby and gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> gouramis, with no problems. you may want to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> another gold of about the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >What about blue gouramis? They're the same kind of fish right? Just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >different color?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> i have found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> that they are rarely aggressive when placed in evn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> numbered groups of four or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5280 From: paul helms Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cosby is a specific pattern of the blue, but yes they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are the same, just different color.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > there is no need to remove the betta from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bettas do just fine with most gourami species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hum, well I'd rather not take the chance. My betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is my favorite fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and I'd rather him not get killed or hurt when I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just move him into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > his own little ten gallon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > he may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eat the babies, and you are right they do need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > removed,, but the betta may eat them as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yeah, I figured he would, but he's never shown even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a passing interest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in the mollie fry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > my customers have bettas in with their cosby and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gouramis, with no problems. you may want to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > another gold of about the same size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What about blue gouramis? They're the same kind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish right? Just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > different color?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i have found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that they are rarely aggressive when placed in evn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > numbered groups of four or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5281 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Bully Dwarf Gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have 3 neon dwarf gouramis in my 29 gallon community tank along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with 4 angels, 2 danios and 2 snails...one of the gouramis picks on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the same gourami - chasing him to teh same side of the tank - I feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them at least once or twice a day -- can I do anything to calm this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bully behavior down?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5282 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: De-lurking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Not necessarily, it depends on the personality of the individual fish. I've never had luck with males in community tanks...in some cases it was the betta bothering the other fish, vice versa in others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bettas in a comunity tank don't bother other fish they just try to kill other male bettas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5283 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They can be agressive, depends on the individual fish. I'd definitely move the betta, majority of the time it's best not to have different labyrinth fish together. I wouldn't be concerned about the gourami & the mollies, but moving the fry if you're giving them away is a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm in something of a pickle. My cousin bought a gold gourami about a year ago. She didn't do any of her research though and he wound up killing any fish that she would put in with him. (He was in a ten and then five gallon tank.) After a while she stopped buying fish and put up her tanks. I thought he must have died (this was over six months ago) but I was wrong. He's been living in a small punch bowl! So last night while I was at her her house I said, "I'm going to steal your fish.". And I did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've never had a gourami of any kind before, so I'm not sure how to care for him. Right now he's in a ten gallon tank with three albino cory cats. There hasn't been any problems so far, but it's obvious he's going to need more room eventually. I'd say he's about three and half to four inches long, and I've read that they can be six inches! Also he looks really pale, though he's started to regain some of his color since last night. The water he was in was awful!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a twenty-nine gallon tank with assorted mollies (sailfin, black, and balloon), a male betta, one neon tetra (I know, I know I need to get him some more friends.), and a couple of kinds of cory cats. The mollies have had a baby boom recently and there's about twenty of them hiding in there. (I'm going to be giving most of them away once they're older.) I've read that they can live with sailfin mollies but I'm hesitant to put him in there. Of course the betta would have to move out. I would like to get another 29 gallon tank, but that will probably be a long time before it can happen, due to space and money constraints.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So what should I do? Could I add him to the community tank in a few days after I remove the betta and the baby mollies? He was really aggressive in my cousins tanks but I figure that's because they were so small. Also, how long do these guys usually live?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5284 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cories are social, and I've read they school by sight. A couple friends
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would be nice, hopefully you could get another albino or two.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "amalthea23" <amalthea23@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ok, thanks paul! i feel so badly for the little guy! i don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                kill him with kindness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                also, should i get him a little friend? i know they're social, but he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                been alone for so long. i have some other bottom feeders who are pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                friendly on an inter-species level, perhaps they'll mingle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5285 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory cat help?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I totally agree about the Corys. I never expected it, but these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                little guys are definitely a favorite of mine! I plan to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                several more, and am allowing them with my "inch of fish per gallon"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                allotment!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "crickit99"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <crickit99@a...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > There is a lot of debate on Cory Cats and schooling. Some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > say different varieties will school together, and more probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > disagree (or so it seems).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My personal experience.... I started out w/ 2 Pandas and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Juhlis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > They all hung out together some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I then added 2 more of each a few weeks later (and 1 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Juhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > didn't make it from the original group). At this point, I noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > distinct difference in behavior from the Pandas, the 4 started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > schooling and doing everything together.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > At this point, I have 5 Pandas and 3 Juhlis. I had 6 Pandas, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > didn't make it. When I had the 6, they would swim all over the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > together, play together, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From what I have seen, I am a big fan of having at least 4 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > same variety. Their behavior is very different, even in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > difference of having 4 vs 6. I'm planning on 6 of each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > All fish have different personalities, but I would get a few more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albinos if you tank can handle it. What size tank do you have,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what sort of bottom dwellers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cories are a LOT of fun.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5286 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Brown Algae/To Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sounds good, it must be the lights.  I only have 8 Black Neon's in my 10 gallon tank and 6 Gold Barbs and 2 zebra dianos in my 20 gallon tank. I feed one time a day in the mourning and try to remove all unseating food before I leave for work. What you do think of Otocinclus catfish?  I've read they are good for algae?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Could I added 2 or 3 to my 10 gallon with the 8 back neon tetra in them? I'm also thinking of added 3 or 4 more Zebra Dianos to my 20 gallon tank and them maybe 3 or 4 catfish, I was thinking Cory's, but with the algae problems maybe I'll do otco's?  Can corys and Octos live happy together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Brown Algae/To Robb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Put your light on a timer. A cheap one from Walmart works. Just 12 hours a day. SAE will eat the brown algae. Algae is caused by excess nutrients. If you have live plants help them out compete the algae for the nutrients or find the excess nutrients. These are:light.dead leaves, dead fish, overfeeding, too many fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've having some problems with brown algae what can I do to fight this?  I'm doing 25% weekly water changes, feeding one time a day, changing the filter and media monthly and I can seem to stop it from coming.  Both my tanks are not in direct sunlight.  I leave the lights on the tank on about 14 hours aday, but that didn't seem to fix it either. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On a side note can someone tell me if when I first turn on the lights in my 10 gallon Black neon Tetra tank is it normal for there black stripe to be white?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5287 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                After being so mad leaving the new petsmart in my town cuase no one there knew a dang thing and i was helping customers. i got 1. a test kit or 2 actually 2. new light bulb to help plants grow better 3. airstone cuase mine is lacking maybe not producing enough, 4. activated carbon 5. new cleaning hose cuase i broke mine beating it on the side of the house when a rock is logged in it lol..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so i hope with all this i have all the matericals to help my fish... for one i know i am lacking in medicine if i need some for my what i now know the name of my mystery fish RASBORA HETEROMORPHA...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so i did my test strips.. i have the 5 in 1 and then the amonia... so to start off my nitrate is a tthe 2 pink bar in the safe range, the nitrite is at the first clear bar says my water is soft the alkalnity is blue on a green chart so i am very lost at that.. i think maybe i should retest or does it not matter... finally my ph might be highit is pink.. seems to be higher than the 8.4 so im thinking for right now ill switch the light put the new airstone in and change the carbon in my filter.. what do you all think.. thanks for y our patience.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5288 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: To Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Fluffy is a Chilean Rosehair. : )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I am fascinated with tarantulas. What kind do you have?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5289 From: loreleicosner Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for the tip. I'll stay away from this chemical and try some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the "homemade remedies" for hardwater deposits first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Says it's safe, but indicates use on OUTSIDE aquarium, but says
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                also it can be used on hoods, filters, frames and stands. Why it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be used on filters and hoods confuses me, since condensate/splash on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hoods can deposit back into the tank, and water flowing through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filters will carry deposits back into the tank. I don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                presume the amount carried into the tank is so minimal, it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                considered safe. On the other hand, they may be relating to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                possibility/fact the tank is filled, and don't want you to try to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the stuff while there are/is fish/water in the tank, which is'nt too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                perceptive if the stuff is inherently safe. I'd stay away from it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                'till I learned through the ad/description as to whether it's safe or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not. In an empty aquarium, vinegar can help dissolve calcium deposits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just make absolutely sure the tank is perfectly rinsed afterwards. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                any etching occurs during prolonged aquarium use, you'll have to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with it, though it's usually most visible on glass tank-tops, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                restricts light that you may need for plants. (etching may seem like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to calcium deposit, but is just that, as far as I know. Etched. (my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                guess is it's from acidification, or a combination of factors that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                leave apparent etching after the removal of calcium deposits) Jungle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Labs (I'm not financially benefitting) makes a bunch of products,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                including 'Lime-away". Look up Jungle-Labs on GOOGLE if you're interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Cat

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > egory_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5290 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: differnt view [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: cory cat help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just from my experince I had four corys till my panda died all different varietys but they have nothing to do with eachother.. just like my frogs that each a corned basically my corys do as well... but none the less they are happy shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a lot of debate on Cory Cats and schooling.  Some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                say different varieties will school together, and more probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                disagree (or so it seems).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My personal experience.... I started out w/ 2 Pandas and 2 Juhlis. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They all hung out together some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I then added 2 more of each a few weeks later (and 1 of the Juhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                didn't make it from the original group).  At this point, I noticed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                distinct difference in behavior from the Pandas, the 4 started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                schooling and doing everything together.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At this point, I have 5 Pandas and 3 Juhlis.  I had 6 Pandas, but 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                didn't make it.   When I had the 6, they would swim all over the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                together, play together, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From what I have seen, I am a big fan of having at least 4 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                same variety.  Their behavior is very different, even in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difference of having 4 vs 6.  I'm planning on 6 of each.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All fish have different personalities, but I would get a few more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albinos if you tank can handle it.  What size tank do you have, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what sort of bottom dwellers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cories are a LOT of fun. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5291 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is this a good product to use?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just don't try chemicals while the tank contains fish. (or water that you don't plan on totally removing. Then you must make sure the tank is devoid of unwanted chemistry before refilling) Someone on this thread mentioned vinegar, bleach AND a 'RAZOR-BLADE'. I forgot about the razor blade solution. It can be used to remove most of the deposit, and if there's anything left to remove with, say, vinegar, you can use that. If something's apparent on the glass after that, chances are it's permanent, and may not be visible when water back in the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks for the tip. I'll stay away from this chemical and try some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the "homemade remedies" for hardwater deposits first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Says it's safe, but indicates use on OUTSIDE aquarium, but says
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > also it can be used on hoods, filters, frames and stands. Why it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be used on filters and hoods confuses me, since condensate/splash on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hoods can deposit back into the tank, and water flowing through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters will carry deposits back into the tank. I don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > presume the amount carried into the tank is so minimal, it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > considered safe. On the other hand, they may be relating to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > possibility/fact the tank is filled, and don't want you to try to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the stuff while there are/is fish/water in the tank, which is'nt too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > perceptive if the stuff is inherently safe. I'd stay away from it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 'till I learned through the ad/description as to whether it's safe or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not. In an empty aquarium, vinegar can help dissolve calcium deposits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just make absolutely sure the tank is perfectly rinsed afterwards. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > any etching occurs during prolonged aquarium use, you'll have to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with it, though it's usually most visible on glass tank-tops, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > restricts light that you may need for plants. (etching may seem like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to calcium deposit, but is just that, as far as I know. Etched. (my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > guess is it's from acidification, or a combination of factors that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > leave apparent etching after the removal of calcium deposits) Jungle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Labs (I'm not financially benefitting) makes a bunch of products,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > including 'Lime-away". Look up Jungle-Labs on GOOGLE if you're interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Is this aquarium cleaner any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.noahspets.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30638&Cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > egory_Code=F2-A&Product_Count=24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Thanks for any advice you can give me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5292 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Corys and ottos will do fine together.  I don't count them in the bioload of a tank, but some people do.  They pretty much eat as much as they add, so it is pretty close to even. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sounds good, it must be the lights.  I only have 8 Black Neon's in my 10 gallon tank and 6 Gold Barbs and 2 zebra dianos in my 20 gallon tank. I feed one time a day in the mourning and try to remove all unseating food before I leave for work. What you do think of Otocinclus catfish?  I've read they are good for algae?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could I added 2 or 3 to my 10 gallon with the 8 back neon tetra in them? I'm also thinking of added 3 or 4 more Zebra Dianos to my 20 gallon tank and them maybe 3 or 4 catfish, I was thinking Cory's, but with the algae problems maybe I'll do otco's?  Can corys and Octos live happy together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5293 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hate to say it, but you would have been better off not buying that test kit.  We need an exact number for ammonia and nitrite (for now it sounds like nitrites are close to 0), other readings aren't needed, not even nitrate.  For now, have you done a large water change today? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    After being so mad leaving the new petsmart in my town cuase no one there knew a dang thing and i was helping customers. i got 1. a test kit or 2 actually 2. new light bulb to help plants grow better 3. airstone cuase mine is lacking maybe not producing enough, 4. activated carbon 5. new cleaning hose cuase i broke mine beating it on the side of the house when a rock is logged in it lol..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so i hope with all this i have all the matericals to help my fish... for one i know i am lacking in medicine if i need some for my what i now know the name of my mystery fish RASBORA HETEROMORPHA...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so i did my test strips.. i have the 5 in 1 and then the amonia... so to start off my nitrate is a tthe 2 pink bar in the safe range, the nitrite is at the first clear bar says my water is soft the alkalnity is blue on a green chart so i am very lost at that.. i think maybe i should retest or does it not matter... finally my ph might be highit is pink.. seems to be higher than the 8.4 so im thinking for right now ill switch the light put the new airstone in and change the carbon in my filter.. what do you all think.. thanks for y our patience.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5294 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oh no.. what do you mean how do i get a excat number.. i did a 50% yesterday and replaced my carbon in my filter today... added a new light and air stone which has them q;uit rilled.. im thinking enough stress for them today.. do you think i need to do a water change tom or tonight.. as well.. how often do i do these changes.. im thinking my rasbora does have the dropsy.. but she seems fine.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hate to say it, but you would have been better off not buying that test kit.  We need an exact number for ammonia and nitrite (for now it sounds like nitrites are close to 0), other readings aren't needed, not even nitrate.  For now, have you done a large water change today? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5295 From: Steve Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From the first lines of my original post:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Seems to me that says it all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    With reference to your bacteria nomenclature, every book I have read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    regarding filtration and the nitrogen cycle that refer to the bacteria by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "name" call them nitrosomas and nitrobacter. It would not surprise me that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are also found in soil, but I take the names to be that of the genus of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which there could be many species, especially since they are found in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water, brackish water, and sea water, but I have never seen them called by a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    specific name. The major reference I use when it comes to the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cycle, filtration, and water quality in general is a small book by Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Spotte called "Fish and Invertebrate Culture". Despite its title, it is all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    about water quality in closed systems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I also have collected a lot of information from John Farrell Kuhns, known
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for developing Novaqua and Amquel, which are products sometimes mentioned on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The use of biological terms comes from reading and talking with those who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know such things. To me it comes rather naturally. It may come to others who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do the reading and the talking as well. It also helps to come from a family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with a scientific bent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    With regard to the slime, I've always been told that it is safe to flush it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    away, and flushing it when clean has never hurt my filtration. So, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    easy to reach the conclusion that it is produced by the bacteria. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there may be some live bacteria in it, it may also be the remains of those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    who have passed on to wherever bacteria go at the end of their life cycle. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do not recall seeing anything specifically written about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, the stuff does get flushed. It gets flushed from areas with higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    density to areas of lower density, and all the while the natural process of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the breakdown of ammonia goes on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think you should have stated at the start that you were trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to collate all the information in this long drawn out thread to try to bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it to an end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My question re your occupation was based on your use of biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    terms, which constitute what I see as inaccuracies i.e. nitrosomonas do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    consume ammonia but the definition is SOIL bacteria, nitrobacter do consume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrite but are also defined as SOIL bacteria, nitrogenous waste is defined
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as waste containing nitrogen in the form nitrate or proteins, the product of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the aerobic bacteria not there nutrient. the slime you mention on bio wheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (also found on all bio filter surfaces although not so noticeable) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    usually known as mulm and is the bacterial culture, if you clean it of you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    will vastly reduce the efficiency of the filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Finally and probably 'nit picking' your ref. to the bad stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    getting flushed away in river, this may be true at the source but any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    point what is flushed away downstream is replaced from upstream otherwise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    OK. My ref. to advertising when I looked properly I see you were only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plugging your local club and interests, my apologies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    unclenorm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5296 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Neat home made tool...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi, Ya'll...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I made a neat home made tool this afternoon! Some of my new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Flourite ended up on top of my driftwood, and I needed a broom!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, I've needed a teeny little algae scraping tool for corners and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down next to the gravel. So... I trotted to our local WalMart and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bought a sturdy LONG dowel rod, a nice cheap soft tiny paintbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for artwork, and a single pad in the fish dept. to remove algae from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    acrylic tanks. I cut a small section from the pad and wrapped it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    around one end of the dowel rod and wrapped a rubber band on it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hold it securely. Took the paintbrush and put it on the other end
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of the dowel with another rubber band. It works GREAT!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also made an "extra mini" siphon tube by inserting some regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    clear tubing into a firm plastic rod that is used to repair toilets,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    in case I need to siphon VERY carefully around plants or in tight
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now bring on the crud...I'm ready!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5297 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Help...my betta has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Clear Day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ick...okay...as some of you know I mated my 2 bettas last week and it was successful mating but no live babies...Well, my female had a couple of spots of ick two days later but she's fine now...My male on the other hand is covered w/ick...I've changed his water and added a touch of salt (divided the 10 gal directions to work for 1 gal)....I've also increased his water temp to about 80 degrees...everything else is perfect (i've done my water test and all is numerically perfect)...sooo, what I want to know is does anyone have any other suggestions for increasing my betta's odds? Thanks ya'll!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5298 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               The biological definitions I originaly got from a marine biologist freind of mine some years ago, but before posting I recheck them with a number of dictionarys which can be found on line via google.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your comments may be correct also, I am not a biologist but I'm sure of what I said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From the first lines of my original post:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems to me that says it all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With reference to your bacteria nomenclature, every book I have read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regarding filtration and the nitrogen cycle that refer to the bacteria by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "name" call them nitrosomas and nitrobacter. It would not surprise me that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they are also found in soil, but I take the names to be that of the genus of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      which there could be many species, especially since they are found in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water, brackish water, and sea water, but I have never seen them called by a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      specific name. The major reference I use when it comes to the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cycle, filtration, and water quality in general is a small book by Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Spotte called "Fish and Invertebrate Culture". Despite its title, it is all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about water quality in closed systems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have collected a lot of information from John Farrell Kuhns, known
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for developing Novaqua and Amquel, which are products sometimes mentioned on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The use of biological terms comes from reading and talking with those who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know such things. To me it comes rather naturally. It may come to others who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do the reading and the talking as well. It also helps to come from a family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with a scientific bent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With regard to the slime, I've always been told that it is safe to flush it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      away, and flushing it when clean has never hurt my filtration. So, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      easy to reach the conclusion that it is produced by the bacteria. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there may be some live bacteria in it, it may also be the remains of those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      who have passed on to wherever bacteria go at the end of their life cycle. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do not recall seeing anything specifically written about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the stuff does get flushed. It gets flushed from areas with higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      density to areas of lower density, and all the while the natural process of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the breakdown of ammonia goes on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think you should have stated at the start that you were trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to collate all the information in this long drawn out thread to try to bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it to an end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My question re your occupation was based on your use of biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      terms, which constitute what I see as inaccuracies i.e. nitrosomonas do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      consume ammonia but the definition is SOIL bacteria, nitrobacter do consume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite but are also defined as SOIL bacteria, nitrogenous waste is defined
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as waste containing nitrogen in the form nitrate or proteins, the product of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the aerobic bacteria not there nutrient. the slime you mention on bio wheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (also found on all bio filter surfaces although not so noticeable) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      usually known as mulm and is the bacterial culture, if you clean it of you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will vastly reduce the efficiency of the filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Finally and probably 'nit picking' your ref. to the bad stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      getting flushed away in river, this may be true at the source but any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      point what is flushed away downstream is replaced from upstream otherwise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK. My ref. to advertising when I looked properly I see you were only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      plugging your local club and interests, my apologies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5299 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We have uploaded a few photos into the photos section of the group. Folder is called Sarah & Tony's. Working on a few more...lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5300 From: Steve Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you look here, http://tinyurl.com/4nc5w, you will find a .PDF of a paper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      talking about isolating various nitrifiers from samples. Not too far into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the paper appears this sentence. "_Nitrobacter_ species have commonly been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      isolated by standard procedures and therefore are considered the dominant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite oxidizers in freshwater and terrestrial ecosystems." This statement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is footnoted and apparently comes from a publication by E. Bock and H. P.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Koops covering the genus _Nitrobacter_ published in 1992.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am short of time this morning, but I would imagine if I did a similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      search on _Nitrosomas_, I would find something similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also found many references to _Nitrobacter_ in a liquid environment, and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      few references to _Nitrobacter_ in a soil environment, but no mention of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amount of liquid present in the soil.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hit a couple of online dictionaries, and one wanted me to subscribe to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      their unabridged version to find the definition they give, and the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      does mention it as a soil bacteria, but, if you follow up on the above,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you'll see that it does not tell the whole story.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The biological definitions I originaly got from a marine biologist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      freind of mine some years ago, but before posting I recheck them with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      number of dictionarys which can be found on line via google.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your comments may be correct also, I am not a biologist but I'm sure of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From the first lines of my original post:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems to me that says it all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With reference to your bacteria nomenclature, every book I have read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regarding filtration and the nitrogen cycle that refer to the bacteria by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "name" call them nitrosomas and nitrobacter. It would not surprise me that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they are also found in soil, but I take the names to be that of the genus of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      which there could be many species, especially since they are found in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water, brackish water, and sea water, but I have never seen them called by a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      specific name. The major reference I use when it comes to the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cycle, filtration, and water quality in general is a small book by Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Spotte called "Fish and Invertebrate Culture". Despite its title, it is all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about water quality in closed systems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have collected a lot of information from John Farrell Kuhns, known
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for developing Novaqua and Amquel, which are products sometimes mentioned on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The use of biological terms comes from reading and talking with those who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know such things. To me it comes rather naturally. It may come to others who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do the reading and the talking as well. It also helps to come from a family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with a scientific bent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With regard to the slime, I've always been told that it is safe to flush it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      away, and flushing it when clean has never hurt my filtration. So, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      easy to reach the conclusion that it is produced by the bacteria. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there may be some live bacteria in it, it may also be the remains of those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      who have passed on to wherever bacteria go at the end of their life cycle. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do not recall seeing anything specifically written about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the stuff does get flushed. It gets flushed from areas with higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      density to areas of lower density, and all the while the natural process of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the breakdown of ammonia goes on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think you should have stated at the start that you were trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to collate all the information in this long drawn out thread to try to bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it to an end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My question re your occupation was based on your use of biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      terms, which constitute what I see as inaccuracies i.e. nitrosomonas do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      consume ammonia but the definition is SOIL bacteria, nitrobacter do consume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite but are also defined as SOIL bacteria, nitrogenous waste is defined
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as waste containing nitrogen in the form nitrate or proteins, the product of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the aerobic bacteria not there nutrient. the slime you mention on bio wheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (also found on all bio filter surfaces although not so noticeable) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      usually known as mulm and is the bacterial culture, if you clean it of you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will vastly reduce the efficiency of the filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Finally and probably 'nit picking' your ref. to the bad stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      getting flushed away in river, this may be true at the source but any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      point what is flushed away downstream is replaced from upstream otherwise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK. My ref. to advertising when I looked properly I see you were only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      plugging your local club and interests, my apologies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm













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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5301 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Walt, sorry for the long delay in this reply, I missplaced my 'to reply' list. I'm very interested in your denitrator design I carn't quite envisage the water flow route having the centre as the aerobic chamber, did you find this design on line if so could you tell me were,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      WALTER MAYER <wmmayer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am posting after reading uncle norms post about a diy coil denitrator. These are primarily for marine tanks. However I built one last year for my 125 fw tank. Uncle norm is pretty much correct in construction except for some deminsions. The tube is 9" high, 8-1/2" in diameter. The inside wall has a coil of 1/4" tubing, coiled from the bottom to the top. It's around 75 feet of tubing. The center is filled to the top with bio-balls for the bacteria to thrive.It is indeed drip fed, and takes 6 to 8 weeks for it to begin the full process.After this it does indeed produce denitrated water along with a mixture of gases. Since it has been working I have never had a test reading over 20.0 for Nitrate. It has reduced water changes (which is the reason for it in marine tanks) to about 1/2. Well worth the aggravation of building it. ( The coil is some what difficult to build.) Well thats my input.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Best fishes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Walt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi JoeP,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             I had heard of this NITREX BOX and looked into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it before, but came to the conclusion that it was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gimmick and stood little chance of working and even if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it did would prove to be pretty expensive to run apart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from having to dig it in and out of the substrate on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regular basis to change the media so I admit to having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      no personal experience, but before making this post I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have spent some time researching it again in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anticipation of some one bringing it up, All I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is that I cannot find anybody that is not financially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      involved, with a good word for it, in fact a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      people totally condemn it saying it caused utter havoc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in there tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There is another method under this name, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can't say product as it is a do it yourself project,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it entails along length of small bore pipe about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      twenty five feet or so in a coil,you feed the aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water into one end very very slowly then get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      denitrated water and gas out the other end. The theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      being that aerobic bacteria work in the inlet end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the pipe removing ammonia, nitrite and most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      oxygen while the outlet end becomes Anaerobic and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      removes the nitrate. While the theory is sound I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      see a lot of problems, very very little surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for the bacteria to colonise, it would need to be drip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fed to get a slow enough flow so you would realy need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to install it in a sump, usualy sumps are associated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with large tanks, I think it's impact on a large tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      would be minimal. There are reports of a number of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      people trying it, most said it did remove Nitrates but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      only in small amounts and that they didn't think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      worth the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               One day when I'm looking for something to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I might experiment to see if I can improve the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      volume/time scale that it appears to work at.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- j.pascavage@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ............Try typing NITREX BOX, or NITREX BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > AQUARIUM in GOOGLE. It's used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria, which are used to change nitrate into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > nitrogen. You should find other sources there that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > relate to other products used to cultivate anaerobic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >                              JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yes Nim, that is the way it looks to me also, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > are favored in the biowheel due to the proximity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of the culturing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > surface to a supply of oxygen in the air.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > But are aerobic bacteria any more beneficial to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filtering than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > anaerobic bacteria? I've seen salt designs where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they incorporate a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > long tubular column of slow moving water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > exhaust the oxygen from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the water so that anaerobic bacteria will flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > at the far end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the tube and better remove ammonia or nitrates or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > something. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that I conclude that anaerobic bacteria are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > uniquely beneficial in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the biological filtering process.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Mathur" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Biowheels along with this also provide an oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rich environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > bacteria to grow unlike the UGF/Fluidized sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bed or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > specialist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > biological filters. Even though it may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > considerably smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > area to a UGF or even a standard porous gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > substrate but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > later ones provide oxygen rich environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Since the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > are aerobic bacteria, and in a bio-wheel, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is no shortage of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > nutrient needed for these bacteria to flourish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Oxygen".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Ps: this does not in anyway mean that UGFs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bad/ineffective/horrible. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > all depends on what one wants to do. One setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for someone may do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wonders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > for him and create havoc for the other. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > true even with bio-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wheels. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have heard some people having continuous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacterial bloom problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > but some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > don't at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >Sent: 15 September 2004 19:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Re: External Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >yes, but they also don't have rot issues to due
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with toxins being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >released from under plates. no dead spots, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i've had tremendous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >success with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >On Sep 15, 2004, at 2:40 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >> stretch out that biowheel and the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > areae is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >> still nothing compared to the area under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plate or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >> within the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >> --- amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> Don't forget, it's not how thin the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> it's the surface area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> they are folded in on themselves so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> surprisingly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> tremendous surface area for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> On Sep 15, 2004, at 5:26 AM, radzewicz@y...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> Thanks Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> So the biowheel provides biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filtering by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> providing a surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> for bacteria to live on. Now how does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > differ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> from the biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> filtering that you get from a sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter, or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> biological sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> tucked into the externally hung filter box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> flowpath of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> filter water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> I've observed the operation of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> filters in LPS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> because at first I was skeptical of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > advantage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> they might offer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> now I'm not so skeptical, and am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > considering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> there may actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> be some benefit to the wheel that other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> biological filters don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> achieve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> The biowheel notably exposes a lot of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> surface to air as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> passes through the wheel; and it also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > exposes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> itself, the wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> surface where bacteria grow, to moist air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> it dumps the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> and continues its cycle. Does this exposure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> air result in another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> aspect to biological filtering that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > submerged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> sponge filters do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> achieve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> It occurs to me that emptying the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > media of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> water and exposing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> it to air for a few moments of the biowheel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> might actually be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> another biological aspect of the filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> I'm hardpressed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> know what it might be. Do additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > species of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> bactera flourish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> the biowheel because of this air exposure?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> there any writeups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> about the biowheel filter that describes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> effect of this action?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> Stan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>> the biowheel was designed to replace the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>> filter in a planted aquarium. it covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>> bases, but is not as effective as the ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>> does not get clogged by the roots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>> some may think it works as well, but look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>>>> that is provided for biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filtration. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5302 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK steve excepted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you look here, http://tinyurl.com/4nc5w, you will find a .PDF of a paper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      talking about isolating various nitrifiers from samples. Not too far into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the paper appears this sentence. "_Nitrobacter_ species have commonly been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      isolated by standard procedures and therefore are considered the dominant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite oxidizers in freshwater and terrestrial ecosystems." This statement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is footnoted and apparently comes from a publication by E. Bock and H. P.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Koops covering the genus _Nitrobacter_ published in 1992.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am short of time this morning, but I would imagine if I did a similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      search on _Nitrosomas_, I would find something similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also found many references to _Nitrobacter_ in a liquid environment, and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      few references to _Nitrobacter_ in a soil environment, but no mention of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amount of liquid present in the soil.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hit a couple of online dictionaries, and one wanted me to subscribe to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      their unabridged version to find the definition they give, and the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      does mention it as a soil bacteria, but, if you follow up on the above,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you'll see that it does not tell the whole story.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               The biological definitions I originaly got from a marine biologist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      freind of mine some years ago, but before posting I recheck them with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      number of dictionarys which can be found on line via google.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your comments may be correct also, I am not a biologist but I'm sure of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From the first lines of my original post:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "There are a number of topics covered in this thread, and not much to sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      them out. Three types of filter media are being talked about. They are:"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems to me that says it all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With reference to your bacteria nomenclature, every book I have read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regarding filtration and the nitrogen cycle that refer to the bacteria by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "name" call them nitrosomas and nitrobacter. It would not surprise me that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they are also found in soil, but I take the names to be that of the genus of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      which there could be many species, especially since they are found in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water, brackish water, and sea water, but I have never seen them called by a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      specific name. The major reference I use when it comes to the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cycle, filtration, and water quality in general is a small book by Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Spotte called "Fish and Invertebrate Culture". Despite its title, it is all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about water quality in closed systems.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have collected a lot of information from John Farrell Kuhns, known
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for developing Novaqua and Amquel, which are products sometimes mentioned on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The use of biological terms comes from reading and talking with those who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know such things. To me it comes rather naturally. It may come to others who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do the reading and the talking as well. It also helps to come from a family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with a scientific bent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With regard to the slime, I've always been told that it is safe to flush it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      away, and flushing it when clean has never hurt my filtration. So, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      easy to reach the conclusion that it is produced by the bacteria. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there may be some live bacteria in it, it may also be the remains of those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      who have passed on to wherever bacteria go at the end of their life cycle. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do not recall seeing anything specifically written about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the stuff does get flushed. It gets flushed from areas with higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      density to areas of lower density, and all the while the natural process of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the breakdown of ammonia goes on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think you should have stated at the start that you were trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to collate all the information in this long drawn out thread to try to bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it to an end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My question re your occupation was based on your use of biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      terms, which constitute what I see as inaccuracies i.e. nitrosomonas do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      consume ammonia but the definition is SOIL bacteria, nitrobacter do consume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite but are also defined as SOIL bacteria, nitrogenous waste is defined
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as waste containing nitrogen in the form nitrate or proteins, the product of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the aerobic bacteria not there nutrient. the slime you mention on bio wheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (also found on all bio filter surfaces although not so noticeable) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      usually known as mulm and is the bacterial culture, if you clean it of you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will vastly reduce the efficiency of the filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Finally and probably 'nit picking' your ref. to the bad stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      getting flushed away in river, this may be true at the source but any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      point what is flushed away downstream is replaced from upstream otherwise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK. My ref. to advertising when I looked properly I see you were only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      plugging your local club and interests, my apologies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm













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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5303 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, to get an exact number you would need a liquid test kit, but the one you have will do for now.  I suggest doing 50% water changes every day. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oh no.. what do you mean how do i get a excat number.. i did a 50% yesterday and replaced my carbon in my filter today... added a new light and air stone which has them q;uit rilled.. im thinking enough stress for them today.. do you think i need to do a water change tom or tonight.. as well.. how often do i do these changes.. im thinking my rasbora does have the dropsy.. but she seems fine.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5304 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are you saying Cories and Ottos don't add to the bioload of the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, herbivores, such as Ottos, are constantly eating and are actually high waste producers. Cories are high waste producers as well, for their size.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not looking for an arguement, haha, but I just thought I'd note that I disagree on them 'not counting' for bioload.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5305 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok will do... im also wondering if i should use the PH down that I bought a while back... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, to get an exact number you would need a liquid test kit, but the one you have will do for now.  I suggest doing 50% water changes every day. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5306 From: Walter Cain Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is my thoughts that anything that is adding to the tank should be considered in the bioload. I agree that both cories and ottos need to be counted as should snails as they also produce a lot of waste.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a 60 gal. planted tank with guppies and a 55 reef tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crickit99@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are you saying Cories and Ottos don't add to the bioload of the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, herbivores, such as Ottos, are constantly eating and are actually high waste producers.  Cories are high waste producers as well, for their size.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not looking for an arguement, haha, but I just thought I'd note that I disagree on them 'not counting' for bioload.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5307 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wouldn't use that. I have found that it is much easier to just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        leave the pH alone, too much work to keep it the way you want it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The fish won't mind it being a little high.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ok will do... im also wondering if i should use the PH down that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bought a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while back... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, to get an exact number you would need a liquid test kit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one you have will do for now. I suggest doing 50% water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        every day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5308 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Brown Algae/ottos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As I mentioned, many people do count them and I understand and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggree why they count them, but there are great arguments for why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they should not be counted. A floating pellet fed to an angelfish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for example, that sinks to the bottom and isn't found by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        angelfish would cause a lot of polution in the water. Add a cory or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        otto, which are tiny fish, and they eat that sunken pellet. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        resulting waste from the fish is smaller than what would have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from the pellet. The result is in fact reduced bioload in that case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now for the snail issues, snails should not be fed on purpose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless they are pet snails. 1000 snails probably count as 1 inch of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish because they only count in the bioload when they die. The rest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the time they are removing waste from the tank. Of course exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        numbers with snails is impossible, but it is my opinion that trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to count them in the bioload is like trying to count the weight of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        needle in a haystack as part of the hay stack.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5309 From: joequality1980 Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I added a gold gourami about 3 months ago. At first, he got chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        by a dwarf flame gourami for about a week, then the gold realized he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was bigger and became a bully. Since then, the gold relentlessly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        persues the poor flame all over the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sometimes, the gold also takes jabs at an angelfish too, so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        believe it depends on the individual fish. Also, both the flame and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gold are males, which increases hostility. Maybe I should put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gold into my cichlid tank for a day or two to put him in his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        place....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5310 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does anyone know of any reason why I couldn't set up my 25 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tall Eclipse tank with both Diamond Tetras and Black Phantom Tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with a couple of corycats, too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5311 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t bother with the PH. Let it be what it is as fluctuating PH can do more harm then an incorrect stable PH. Infact most of the fish you have I think can do fine in high PH so don’t even think about trying to mend it. It is usually a losing battle where eventually the PH will rise back to near what it originally was unless you know very well what you are doing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 21 September 2004 16:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok will do... im also wondering if i should use the PH down that I bought a while back... thanks shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, to get an exact number you would need a liquid test kit, but the one you have will do for now.  I suggest doing 50% water changes every day. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5312 From: Seti Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Question about calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have snails in my tank together with plants and fish (corys, danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and glass catfish). It was recommended to me that I add liquid calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        supplement to the water, for the snails. Would the plants and fish be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok with that?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~~Seti
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5313 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Shannon, First of all, your mother is right, don't get discouraged. We've all been there, having some problem at one time or another, and many of us still come across an occassional problem. Also, we're here to help. As for the "mystery" fish, I figured it was Rasbora heteromorpha when you described the prominent black diamond on the body. This is probably the most popular species in the Rasbora group. They are egglayers as well. As for the Rasbora Tetra you mention, there is no such fish as as they are two distinct groups of fish, Rasboras and Tetras; there are no Tetras that are Rasboras or vice-versa. If label by Petsmart that way, it shows you how "smart" they are. Now as for your problems; (1) you either still have or recently had poor water for the fish, or (2) the fish you've been buying were in poor health when you bought them, if you just bought them recently. Dealing first with the water, it might not be a bad idea to test your tap water to make sure its okay for the fish. As to your tank water, for now, as Patrick advises, do daily 50% water changes until things get back to normal. I presume you're making sure the temperature is the same and that you're using a chloramine remover. For now, don't change any filter floss if that's what you're using; just rinse it out in aquarium water. This will help retain the nitrifying bacteria you need. Normally, only about 30% water changes are necessary weekly for good maintenance. We do need to know what the ammonia/nitrite readings are more precisely but if what you've come up with is the best you can get, we'll have to go with that. Next time, do get the much more accurate liquid test kits (for ammonia and also pH). The Test Strips are not that accurate to begin with and only lose more accuracy over time. For now I would stop adding the flourish excel. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.4, this is too high for most aquarium fish and part of the problem could be right there. Although you should try to get the pH down (gradually) into the mid 7's, right now the use of your pH Down will just cause the pH to "bounce" as your water has a high buffering capacity (if its pH 8.4). You would be better off removing some of that buffering capacity first, the easiest way being with the use of a water softening pillow (which is rechargeable) in your filter. Then after a few days, slowly add the pH Down, perhaps six or eight drops a day for your 20 gallon tank, over a period of several days, dropping it no more than .2 (point 2) pH at a time, until you get down to around pH 7.6 or 7.8 Keep in mind that when doing water changes, the new water will have to be treated each time, so don't lower the pH too much as this will make it all the more difficult at water changing time. You just want to make the water "liveable" for the fish. As for the fish problems, if they are recently bought, I would look elsewhere for future fish purchases even if it costs more, Those chain stores like Petsmart do not always have the best quality fish, and seem to know little about even keeping their own fish healthy. If you've had the fish for a while, then the problems may just be going back to the poor water from the dead plants and the overfeeding. Your Rasbora may or may not have Dropsy, could just be constipated, so it wouldn't hurt to treat it as per my suggestion, in a separate tank (or any large enough container) using mostly your tank water after making the water change. Looking closely, Dropsy is usually spotted as in addition to the fish being bloated, the scales stand out from the body. Additionally, it may just be heavy with eggs. The redness in the fins of your Algae Eater is usually a sign of some sort of disease-like stress due to poor water, just being brought out now from the way you found your tank after vacation. The high pH doesn't help matters either, but if he was doing okay when you left, it really shouldn't be that. Keeping a tsp. of non-iodized salt per 5 gallons in your 20 gallon tank may help things in general and won't hurt the plants. Again, you must remember to replace any salt you take out with water changes. By all means, add the new light, airstone and carbon; carbon needs replacing about once a month. You haven't mentioned any catfish. I'd advise at least a few Corydoras to help clean up any leftover food. I noticed you've kept a Betta for three years; that's an accomplishment - they usually don't live that long. If the condition of the Algae Eater gets worse, it may be necessary to medicate, but lets not do that yet. If it comes to that, Furan II is a good medication for any advancement of that condition, with the temporary removal of the carbon from the filter, although, I believe you said you are currently using Melafix if I'm not mistaken. If so, stick with that. Lastly, for now, being as you already went out and bought test kits, I would strongly suggest that you have your mother buy you a good aquarium general maintenance book as a birthday present instead. One of the best books ever written on general aquarium maintenance, although a bit old (but never outdated) is Exotic Aquarium Fishes by William T. Innes. You should be able to find one on eBay; you don't need to buy an original collector edition, as this book was re-printed by TFH. Its an excellant source of information even to this day, even though it may be lacking a few points, like the ammonia cycle. While some fish names have changed (they're always changing), I'm sure you would enjoy it and find it very interesting. Best of Luck, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5314 From: bryants4god Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Question about calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I add it to my 11 snail tanks and haven't seen any problems with the fish or plants.  I have been using it for about 6 months.  Just make sure you use half the dosing printed on the bottle since your tank is freshwater.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Seti [mailto:Seti1st@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question about calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have snails in my tank together with plants and fish (corys, danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and glass catfish). It was recommended to me that I add liquid calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        supplement to the water, for the snails. Would the plants and fish be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok with that?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~~Seti


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5315 From: Seti Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Question about calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cool! I'll be sure to do that. Thanks Terri!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~~Seti


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I add it to my 11 snail tanks and haven't seen any problems with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants. I have been using it for about 6 months. Just make sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > half the dosing printed on the bottle since your tank is freshwater.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Seti [mailto:Seti1st@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question about calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have snails in my tank together with plants and fish (corys, danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and glass catfish). It was recommended to me that I add liquid calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > supplement to the water, for the snails. Would the plants and fish be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ok with that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~~Seti
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5316 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what is the reason for my high PH.. i dont get it.. how many days of 50% water changes is this giogn to take.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wouldn't use that.  I have found that it is much easier to just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        leave the pH alone, too much work to keep it the way you want it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The fish won't mind it being a little high.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5317 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: NIM [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks.. NIM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t bother with the PH. Let it be what it is as fluctuating PH can do more harm then an incorrect stable PH. Infact most of the fish you have I think can do fine in high PH so don’t even think about trying to mend it. It is usually a losing battle where eventually the PH will rise back to near what it originally was unless you know very well what you are doing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5318 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        High pH is caused by stuff in the natural water supply of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        area. It is extremely hard to lower pH with outside chemicals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because pH is what it is naturally in different areas. Where I am,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it is very low pH, where you are is a little high. Most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        commonly kept freshwater fish can live in pH from 6 to 8, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can live from 5 to 9 from what I've been told.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water changes, probably a week of water changes every day should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do it, you don't have to do 50% at once if you don't have time for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all the work at once, you can take out 5 gallons in the morning and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        replace it, then 5 gallons in the evening. If things start looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better, you might even be able to cut down to just 5 gallon changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the rest of the week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what is the reason for my high PH.. i dont get it.. how many days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water changes is this giogn to take.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I wouldn't use that. I have found that it is much easier to just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leave the pH alone, too much work to keep it the way you want it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The fish won't mind it being a little high.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5319 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RAY ONE more question[FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] I got results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Gosh t;hanks so much for your complete thoughts.. just to answer some of your questions.. I do have corys I had four one died that was the dead fish when i got back i had posted about what it was giogn through about 5 weeks ago and i made a decision to leave it in the tank when i left and apparently it died.. I have collected 3 really informative books.. its all i spend my extra money on belive it or not.. I know im 26 just this past month an di am the biggest fish nerd lol... but I just love this new hobby...I have asked for a few books for X Mas but im giogn to go and look on ebay like you said for that one... I didnt add the melafix yet i wasnt sure what to do so i figured i woudl wait for confirmation... Im thinking ill just diong like you said keep diong the 50% water changes keep testing the water ( with that though all i have is like a pitcher that i just bring back and forth so i need to be added some stress coat to that each time as a conditioner right... but I dont know how much or can i just add it in when i am done filling the tank back up and add a lump amount??????)   I thought I would havesuch a hard time doing the liquid tests im kinda bummed i got the wrong kind... acutally im really mad im giong to work on fixing that... thanks again for your help... ill wait to hear back from you about the conditioner. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Shannon, First of all, your mother is right, don't get discouraged. We've all been there, having some problem at one time or another, and many of us still come across an occassional problem. Also, we're here to help. As for the "mystery" fish, I figured it was Rasbora heteromorpha when you described the prominent black diamond on the body. This is probably the most popular species in the Rasbora group. They are egglayers as well. As for the Rasbora Tetra you mention, there is no such fish as as they are two distinct groups of fish, Rasboras and Tetras; there are no Tetras that are Rasboras or vice-versa. If label by Petsmart that way, it shows you how "smart" they are. Now as for your problems; (1) you either still have or recently had poor water for the fish, or (2) the fish you've been buying were in poor health when you bought them, if you just bought them recently. Dealing first with the water, it might not be a bad idea to test your tap water to make sure its okay for the fish. As to your tank water, for now, as Patrick advises, do daily 50% water changes until things get back to normal. I presume you're making sure the temperature is the same and that you're using a chloramine remover. For now, don't change any filter floss if that's what you're using; just rinse it out in aquarium water. This will help retain the nitrifying bacteria you need. Normally, only about 30% water changes are necessary weekly for good maintenance. We do need to know what the ammonia/nitrite readings are more precisely but if what you've come up with is the best you can get, we'll have to go with that. Next time, do get the much more accurate liquid test kits (for ammonia and also pH). The Test Strips are not that accurate to begin with and only lose more accuracy over time. For now I would stop adding the flourish excel. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.4, this is too high for most aquarium fish and part of the problem could be right there. Although you should try to get the pH down (gradually) into the mid 7's, right now the use of your pH Down will just cause the pH to "bounce" as your water has a high buffering capacity (if its pH 8.4). You would be better off removing some of that buffering capacity first, the easiest way being with the use of a water softening pillow (which is rechargeable) in your filter. Then after a few days, slowly add the pH Down, perhaps six or eight drops a day for your 20 gallon tank, over a period of several days, dropping it no more than .2 (point 2) pH at a time, until you get down to around pH 7.6 or 7.8 Keep in mind that when doing water changes, the new water will have to be treated each time, so don't lower the pH too much as this will make it all the more difficult at water changing time. You just want to make the water "liveable" for the fish. As for the fish problems, if they are recently bought, I would look elsewhere for future fish purchases even if it costs more, Those chain stores like Petsmart do not always have the best quality fish, and seem to know little about even keeping their own fish healthy. If you've had the fish for a while, then the problems may just be going back to the poor water from the dead plants and the overfeeding. Your Rasbora may or may not have Dropsy, could just be constipated, so it wouldn't hurt to treat it as per my suggestion, in a separate tank (or any large enough container) using mostly your tank water after making the water change. Looking closely, Dropsy is usually spotted as in addition to the fish being bloated, the scales stand out from the body. Additionally, it may just be heavy with eggs. The redness in the fins of your Algae Eater is usually a sign of some sort of disease-like stress due to poor water, just being brought out now from the way you found your tank after vacation. The high pH doesn't help matters either, but if he was doing okay when you left, it really shouldn't be that. Keeping a tsp. of non-iodized salt per 5 gallons in your 20 gallon tank may help things in general and won't hurt the plants. Again, you must remember to replace any salt you take out with water changes. By all means, add the new light, airstone and carbon; carbon needs replacing about once a month. You haven't mentioned any catfish. I'd advise at least a few Corydoras to help clean up any leftover food. I noticed you've kept a Betta for three years; that's an accomplishment - they usually don't live that long. If the condition of the Algae Eater gets worse, it may be necessary to medicate, but lets not do that yet. If it comes to that, Furan II is a good medication for any advancement of that condition, with the temporary removal of the carbon from the filter, although, I believe you said you are currently using Melafix if I'm not mistaken. If so, stick with that. Lastly, for now, being as you already went out and bought test kits, I would strongly suggest that you have your mother buy you a good aquarium general maintenance book as a birthday present instead. One of the best books ever written on general aquarium maintenance, although a bit old (but never outdated) is Exotic Aquarium Fishes by William T. Innes. You should be able to find one on eBay; you don't need to buy an original collector edition, as this book was re-printed by TFH. Its an excellant source of information even to this day, even though it may be lacking a few points, like the ammonia cycle. While some fish names have changed (they're always changing), I'm sure you would enjoy it and find it very interesting. Best of Luck, Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5320 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Patrick - I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        awsome thanks so much... my moms bf is giogn to flip though he says we dont have a high pH in the water he says we woudlnt be able to drink it then but im giong to do like someoen told me and go test it mabye my fish like you said are more used to it being higher as this might be the norm.. thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        High pH is caused by stuff in the natural water supply of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        area.  It is extremely hard to lower pH with outside chemicals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because pH is what it is naturally in different areas.  Where I am,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it is very low pH, where you are is a little high.  Most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        commonly kept freshwater fish can live in pH from 6 to 8, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can live from 5 to 9 from what I've been told.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Water changes, probably a week of water changes every day should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do it, you don't have to do 50% at once if you don't have time for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all the work at once, you can take out 5 gallons in the morning and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        replace it, then 5 gallons in the evening.  If things start looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better, you might even be able to cut down to just 5 gallon changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the rest of the week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5321 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I decided today with the help of my advisor that I have such a passion for fish and aquariums that I am going to do my thesis on that such thing.  Im posting to the groups in which I participate in looking purely for advice or help but mostly for professionally written journals, books, profesional magazines even anything you think that I might be able to use... I have 2 weeks to find 30 sources if I find them i get to keep my topic.. Whcih let me tell you i have been stressed over for 2 months trying to come up with a topic... Just a tid bit of info Im a elementary school teacher subbing this year for my sanity but completing my masters degree.. My topic or question sentence as we call it is.. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can a classroom aquarium contribute to scientific knowldege of second grade students?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I picked second grade cuase it is one of my favorite grades the grade part is completely flexible i however want or need to stay in the younger range as that is what my passsion is in.. I dont mind anyone emailing me personally to spare other in the group of emails or in the group as I have seen a lot of OT strands already... Thanks so much for any help or adivice you can offer.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5322 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: morning results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i think my pH is on the scale now around 8.2 the nitrates though seems to be about 30 ppm so that is in the caucion range and i know no one talks about alkanitity but mine seems really high like off the charts again.. i did it in comparrison to the water that goes in minus stress coat and the house water which is well water seems to have a pH of 8.0 im thinking maybe 7.8 these strips are hard to read so my next step is to try and take these back as i know they use them in teh store maybe theyll give me a credit and i can get the bottles which i am sure is giong to take me 5 hours to figure out how to use lol... thanks again shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5323 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5324 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nope, Don't know any reason at all. Sounds very workable. SS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5325 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: morning results

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Alkalinity is very much related to PH. Because of such high alkalinity (KH), you have high PH. Most part of England has hard alkaline water. My tap water measures PH 8.4-8.6, KH 30, GH 25. Hard enough to walk on and we do drink it and it is not harmful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30ppm Nitrates is a perfectly safe measure and not in the caution range unless you have over sensitive fish like Discus or cardinal tetras. Anything upto 50ppm is fine for most fish. My tap water has 45ppm nitrates and I don’t worry about them doing water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 21 September 2004 20:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] morning results

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i think my pH is on the scale now around 8.2 the nitrates though seems to be about 30 ppm so that is in the caucion range and i know no one talks about alkanitity but mine seems really high like off the charts again.. i did it in comparrison to the water that goes in minus stress coat and the house water which is well water seems to have a pH of 8.0 im thinking maybe 7.8 these strips are hard to read so my next step is to try and take these back as i know they use them in teh store maybe theyll give me a credit and i can get the bottles which i am sure is giong to take me 5 hours to figure out how to use lol... thanks again shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5326 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: NIM [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] morning results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks that helps to know i think i worry to much... but heck my fav 2 fish have perished.. im still monring the loss.. shannon( ps someone had the audicity to tell me it is impossible to get attached to fish.. im like i dont cry over them for no reason.. grrr )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Alkalinity is very much related to PH. Because of such high alkalinity (KH), you have high PH. Most part of England has hard alkaline water. My tap water measures PH 8.4-8.6, KH 30, GH 25. Hard enough to walk on and we do drink it and it is not harmful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30ppm Nitrates is a perfectly safe measure and not in the caution range unless you have over sensitive fish like Discus or cardinal tetras. Anything upto 50ppm is fine for most fish. My tap water has 45ppm nitrates and I don’t worry about them doing water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5327 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have put some calcium in our tanks for the snails, question is will carbon remover Calcium?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5328 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Shannon - I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your high pH is due to your well water having a high content of Calcium Carbonates; this compound also makes the water hard and gives it "buffering" capacity which makes it difficult to lower the pH easily without first removing these salts. Many deep wells have this problem sometimes accompanied with Magnesium compounds which also makes the water hard. Of course, no amount of water changing will have any effect here, but should be continued at least until the fish show some improvement. While not to confuse you, softening and lowering the pH may be necessary for your fish to do well as the pH is quite high, but admittedly, this is added work to be avoided if possible. I don't know how long you had your tank set up before the problems, but if the fish were doing alright before you went on vacation and you had them set up awhile, it probably isn't necessary to adjust your water - only if you find it necessary - and sometimes its necessary. Naturally, its always best if you can use the water you have like it is, provided the fish do alright in it. If you've had problems all along, it could be because they are at the high end of their pH range or beyond. While most domestically (farm or tank) raised tropical fish have been raised to be tolerant of a wider pH range than that found in nature, keep in mind that most Rasboras originally came from acid waters of s.e. Asia and most Tetras from acid waters of South American jungles, so 8.4 just may be above their range for proper health. Again, see how they do after they get well - only you know how they did in your water before these problems came up. LOL, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5329 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't want to start messing w/ the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are more delicate when it comes to that. But often you can cause more issues in trying to regulate those than just leaving them alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers, and let me tell you....they produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I looked at the water after 1 day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, there is a difference between rotting food and fish waste... But having Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and snails can often have a bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to what a tank can handle, like oxygen and territory.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but I just want to add that it is important for people to realize that a lot of replies and input are personal experience. Just because something works for one person, doesn't mean it will for another. And I often read advice that I know is not correct...so just remember to do as much research as possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Even my local fish store gives me incorrect information sometimes. It's not on purpose, they just are going on what they have heard. (For instance, they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they are actually freshwater.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5330 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My pH is about 7.6-8.0 and the wife wants angel fish, is there a what to keep them?  I have been doing some test with the pH down stuff and it will climb right back up like the next day, but if I add some Easy Balance to the water it stays at 7.0 I've had a jug setting for over 3 weeks and the pH has not changed.  Since I'll be doing weekly water changes would this method be a safe way to keep the pH at 7.0 or would Angels do ok in a higher pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t bother with the PH. Let it be what it is as fluctuating PH can do more harm then an incorrect stable PH. Infact most of the fish you have I think can do fine in high PH so don’t even think about trying to mend it. It is usually a losing battle where eventually the PH will rise back to near what it originally was unless you know very well what you are doing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 21 September 2004 16:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok will do... im also wondering if i should use the PH down that I bought a while back... thanks shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, to get an exact number you would need a liquid test kit, but the one you have will do for now.  I suggest doing 50% water changes every day. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5331 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Fat Fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The firemouths we got  the other day have both grown really really big bellies. We would understand maybe the female having one but not the male as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2in Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5332 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Mollies and Guppies!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have some Mollies and Guppies for sale. If anyone lives around Gloucester if your interested let us know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5333 From: joequality1980 Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they all should live happily ever after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5334 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Diamond and Black Phantom tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks...!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can hardly wait now for my tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just have to have P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nope, Don't know any reason at all. Sounds very workable. SS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5335 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: SHANNON: No Problem [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] I got resu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 9/21/04 3:07:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        .com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To:    FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tropical Fish have to be one of the most interesting and fascinating hobbies around, with so many aspectes to it. Guess that's why people of all ages are in it. Domn't have to be a "nerd" to enjoy them. As for the book )Exotic Aquarium Fishes), it used to be called the "bible" of aquarium keeping and certainly covers all the basics. Like Shakespear's works, its never out of date! Noticed you had fish (Cory) problems before you left. Maybe it is the high pH of water after all, or just maybe your getting fish in poor health from Petsmart. With the Melafix, if you add it now, you'll only be wasting it as you'll be pulling out half of it every time you do a 50% water change. Continue doing water changes for at least a few more days and see if that helps. If not, temporarily stop the water changes and treat with the Melafix. You  mention you are on a farm; if your well is a private well then I presume there are no additives added to the water like chloramines, in which case you can add the conditioner after you make the complete 50% water change. The liquid test kits are really easy and much more accurate. Afterr adding aquarium water to a small test vial, you add a few drops of test solution, then compare the color to a chart which already has numbers on it and takes all the guesswork out of it. Best way to get use to reading (comparing) the colors against the chart is to usu a white sheet of paper behind the vial to get a good idea of the color, otherwise, the liquid is just transparent and it takes some getting use to. Very easy, though. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5336 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a biologist, history teacher and aquarist...The terms used by Steve are the exact same terms for the bacteria that I see in every thing I have read about nitrogen-related bacteria in water and soil.  On the other hand, it should be noted that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria are not those living in water, they are those living anywhere on Earth.  Aerobic bacteria are those that live in the presence of O2, anaerobic bacteria are those that live out of the presence of O2.  That doesn't make them good.  I wouldn't want to be exposed to many of the bacteria in both of those groups, some can cause serious diseases, infections, and death.  The terms used by Steve in this case aren't more or less correct, they are just more specific.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It should also be said that the nitrogen cycle isn't just an underwater event.  The nitrogen cycle in a lake is connected to that of a farm.  Nitrogen escapes the ground or the fish tank as a gas released by some type of plant or bacteria, etc.  The processes aren't different or similar, they are connected to the same thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5337 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Ray [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Shannon - I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks ray.. yes my tank had been set up and fine for about 11 months... i will keep doing the water changes and now adding the liquid tests and see how things turn out... thanks for the details i feel better knowing my fish were ok with the higher pH.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your high pH is due to your well water having a high content of Calcium Carbonates; this compound also makes the water hard and gives it "buffering" capacity which makes it difficult to lower the pH easily without first removing these salts. Many deep wells have this problem sometimes accompanied with Magnesium compounds which also makes the water hard. Of course, no amount of water changing will have any effect here, but should be continued at least until the fish show some improvement. While not to confuse you, softening and lowering the pH may be necessary for your fish to do well as the pH is quite high, but admittedly, this is added work to be avoided if possible. I don't know how long you had your tank set up before the problems, but if the fish were doing alright before you went on vacation and you had them set up awhile, it probably isn't necessary to adjust your water - only if you find it necessary - and sometimes its necessary. Naturally, its always best if you can use the water you have like it is, provided the fish do alright in it. If you've had problems all along, it could be because they are at the high end of their pH range or beyond. While most domestically (farm or tank) raised tropical fish have been raised to be tolerant of a wider pH range than that found in nature, keep in mind that most Rasboras originally came from acid waters of s.e. Asia and most Tetras from acid waters of South American jungles, so 8.4 just may be above their range for proper health. Again, see how they do after they get well - only you know how they did in your water before these problems came up. LOL, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5338 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: SHANNON: No Problem [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] I got resu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yea feeling much better now about the tests im goign to do them after dinner and very good point about not doing the melafix that woudl be kinda pointless.. my fish do seem to be ok now.. all but the algae eater.. that isnt eating much and kinda hinds which it used to be everywehre.. ill jsut keep diong what i am doing though.. thanks again.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tropical Fish have to be one of the most interesting and fascinating hobbies around, with so many aspectes to it. Guess that's why people of all ages are in it. Domn't have to be a "nerd" to enjoy them. As for the book )Exotic Aquarium Fishes), it used to be called the "bible" of aquarium keeping and certainly covers all the basics. Like Shakespear's works, its never out of date! Noticed you had fish (Cory) problems before you left. Maybe it is the high pH of water after all, or just maybe your getting fish in poor health from Petsmart. With the Melafix, if you add it now, you'll only be wasting it as you'll be pulling out half of it every time you do a 50% water change. Continue doing water changes for at least a few more days and see if that helps. If not, temporarily stop the water changes and treat with the Melafix. You  mention you are on a farm; if your well is a private well then I presume there are no additives added to the water like chloramines, in which case you can add the conditioner after you make the complete 50% water change. The liquid test kits are really easy and much more accurate. Afterr adding aquarium water to a small test vial, you add a few drops of test solution, then compare the color to a chart which already has numbers on it and takes all the guesswork out of it. Best way to get use to reading (comparing) the colors against the chart is to usu a white sheet of paper behind the vial to get a good idea of the color, otherwise, the liquid is just transparent and it takes some getting use to. Very easy, though. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5339 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This doesn't go with my original idea.  If a fish only eats food that was meant for other fish, then even with the waste that is produced after digestion, there is now less waste produced.  That waste will not be released until the fish dies and decomposes.  As for gas levels, you are right on that part.  As for snails, if they are only eating food that has been left by other fish, there is less waste produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I admit that this is all in the area of theory and ideas, I haven't seen any scientific evidence to support this idea of mine, so it could easily be wrong.  What is sure is that an otto or snail produces much less waste than they take in unless you feed them extra food, which many people do.  I just can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough waste to count them the same as you count something like a tetra, gourami, etc.  This is just my opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even if you prove it to me.  It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't want to start messing w/ the pH or GH really.  Some fish, like Discus, are more delicate when it comes to that.  But often you can cause more issues in trying to regulate those than just leaving them alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers, and let me tell you....they produce a LOT of waste.  I was shocked when I looked at the water after 1 day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, there is a difference between rotting food and fish waste... But having Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and snails can often have a bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to what a tank can handle, like oxygen and territory.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but I just want to add that it is important for people to realize that a lot of replies and input are personal experience.  Just because something works for one person, doesn't mean it will for another.  And I often read advice that I know is not correct...so just remember to do as much research as possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Even my local fish store gives me incorrect information sometimes.  It's not on purpose, they just are going on what they have heard.  (For instance, they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they are actually freshwater.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5340 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I just finished cyceling my 55 gallon tank and ready to start adding fish. I'm thinking of have some gouramis as my center piece so to speak and was wondering how many and what kind would do best together.  I'm going to add 5 or 6 cory cats for sure and was also wondering what other fish might go well with the gouramis?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Rob   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5341 From: paul helms Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            generally, i don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > right on that part. As for snails, if they are only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they take in unless you feed them extra food, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it is important for people to realize that a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > correct...so just remember to do as much research as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Christina




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5342 From: paul helms Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            well bred angels shoudl be fine. ph is not that big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of a deal unless you are trying to breed them. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sudden changes in ph that cause stress on fish, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            long as it is not too acidic or basic to burn them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you will be fine. generally anywhere from 6-8 will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            safe to keep most fish. just don't take a fish from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank running 6 and drop it in one running 8.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My pH is about 7.6-8.0 and the wife wants angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish, is there a what to keep them? I have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > doing some test with the pH down stuff and it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > climb right back up like the next day, but if I add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > some Easy Balance to the water it stays at 7.0 I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > had a jug setting for over 3 weeks and the pH has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > not changed. Since I'll be doing weekly water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > changes would this method be a safe way to keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pH at 7.0 or would Angels do ok in a higher pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: Nimish Mathur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: RE: Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Don't bother with the PH. Let it be what it is as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fluctuating PH can do more harm then an incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stable PH. Infact most of the fish you have I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can do fine in high PH so don't even think about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > trying to mend it. It is usually a losing battle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > where eventually the PH will rise back to near what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it originally was unless you know very well what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > are doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: 21 September 2004 16:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Re: I got results...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ok will do... im also wondering if i should use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the PH down that I bought a while back... thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Well, to get an exact number you would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > need a liquid test kit, but the one you have will do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for now. I suggest doing 50% water changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5343 From: crickit99 Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I like to debate things, only way to really understand all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            viewpoints...and to make me realize I'm always right! haha ;) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            don't like reading nasty emails back and forth on these lists, so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hope it isn't taken as such!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You said "That waste will not be released until the fish dies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            decomposes." What do you mean by that? Fish produce waste while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            living...? So perhaps I read that wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You also said "If a fish only eats food that was meant for other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish"... That may be the case if you grossly overfeed your fish, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have to feed my Cory Cats and Ottos. Ottos pretty much have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            eating constantly, and most tanks don't have the algae to feed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (at least after they've gotten it all). So you need to supplement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them w/ algae wafers, veggies, etc. And when you have a tank w/ a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            school of cories, it's not likely enough food will get down to their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            level. A lot of people who don't feed those guys end up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with 'unexplained' deaths...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Both these fish eat almost constantly, so they end up producing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            quite a bit of waste. Bioloads aren't the easiest thing to learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            about, so I have noticed. But I know some people who have been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the hobby for 30+ years, and I trust their input and experience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As for the snails, if you'll do a little research, you'll find they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            do have a high bioload comparatively. But even if I hadn't read up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on them, I know what a few baby snails do to their tank! It's pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gross! Also, most if not all snails don't eat leftover food...they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            eat plant matter/algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll relate this to feeding dogs, as I know a lot more about dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            than fish! I feed mine a dog food w/ all human grade ingredients, no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            preservatives, etc... Now, you look at my dogs and their 'waste'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            compared to another's whose eat Pedigree or Iams (random
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            examples)...my dogs (besides being healthier) produce about 25% of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the waste...why? Because the food mine eat doesn't have a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fillers and undigestible materials.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My point being, just because something is eaten, doesn't mean it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            digested. Cows/deer/whatever eat grass all day, there isn't much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nutritional value, so they would need to eat a lot of grass to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            by...where does all the un-used plant material go? Waste.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But I'm not going to try and change your views, that is up to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I tend to have very strong viewpoints myself (understatement, haha),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and as I don't form them w/o 'facts' it's hard, but not impossible,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for someone to convince me to change them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I also love to play devil's advocate, I'm a Taurus, I like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            argue... that's my excuse! :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5344 From: crickit99 Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Rob,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll go ahead and suggest at least 6 cories of the same coloration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The more you have (to an extent!), the more interesting their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            schooling behavior gets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you have any gouramis you have seen that you liked? I am a fan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of the dwarf (2") and pearl (4") gouramis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What other fish will you have?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All fish can have varying personalities, but male gouramis will tend
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to fight w/ each other, especially same species. With a 55 gal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there should be enough space for a few 'territories' for them....is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it heavily planted or decorated? Broken up views and multiple hiding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            spots will help. Also, having at least 1m/2f ratios will help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have a friend who went point and buy fish shopping and came home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with 6 male gouramis for his 55 (2-blue, honey, kisser). They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            terrorize each other, and they will team up on one until it dies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            then pick the next 'target.' He has 1 honey and 1 kisser left, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            feel kissers really get too big for a 55 anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But other people have no problems... although some gouramis tend to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            be less aggressive (like Pearl and Drawf, haha)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5345 From: Steve Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: External Filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From the quick reads I did this morning, the nitrogen cycle is exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            same whether it occurs in the corn field or the aquarium. The same genuses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of bacteria are involved in both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: External Filter system


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am not a biologist, history teacher and aquarist...The terms used by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Steve are the exact same terms for the bacteria that I see in every thing I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have read about nitrogen-related bacteria in water and soil. On the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hand, it should be noted that aerobic and anaerobic bacteria are not those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            living in water, they are those living anywhere on Earth. Aerobic bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are those that live in the presence of O2, anaerobic bacteria are those that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            live out of the presence of O2. That doesn't make them good. I wouldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            want to be exposed to many of the bacteria in both of those groups, some can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cause serious diseases, infections, and death. The terms used by Steve in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this case aren't more or less correct, they are just more specific.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It should also be said that the nitrogen cycle isn't just an underwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            event. The nitrogen cycle in a lake is connected to that of a farm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nitrogen escapes the ground or the fish tank as a gas released by some type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of plant or bacteria, etc. The processes aren't different or similar, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are connected to the same thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5346 From: Steve Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I was mentally compiling a listing of books while reading your post, until I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            got to your question. I know I have seen some things written concerning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            younger set and aquariums, but I think it is mostly anecdotal in nature, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't have the references right at hand. You might wish to take a look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the "Fish Kidz" column in AFM, but most of the "kidz" who are asking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            questions are older than those in second grade.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What you might wish to do is to focus on observations and teaching the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            children the importance of observation. I do seem to recall a fairly recent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            article in AFM where the use of an aquarium in classrooms, but it would take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a while for me to lay my hands on it. I do believe that AFM now publishes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            index, so locating copies of those would most certainly help in your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Back to the observation part. You might wish to do some experiments with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            different aquaria with different fish and observe yourself the kinds of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the young ones find easiest to observe and make cogent comments (at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cogent for second graders) on behavior and the goings on in the tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you can come up with the right search terms, you may be able to find some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            interesting stuff using the search engine found at http://www.scirus.com It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            just searches through scientific literature. That should give you some solid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            references to hang your hat on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; Aquarium_Building@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            DIY-Aquariums@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Fresh_and_Saltwater_Aquariums@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] OT HELP wanted...im doing my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            masters thesis on aquariums


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I decided today with the help of my advisor that I have such a passion for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish and aquariums that I am going to do my thesis on that such thing. Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            posting to the groups in which I participate in looking purely for advice or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            help but mostly for professionally written journals, books, profesional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            magazines even anything you think that I might be able to use... I have 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            weeks to find 30 sources if I find them i get to keep my topic.. Whcih let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            me tell you i have been stressed over for 2 months trying to come up with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            topic... Just a tid bit of info Im a elementary school teacher subbing this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            year for my sanity but completing my masters degree.. My topic or question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sentence as we call it is.. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can a classroom aquarium contribute to scientific knowldege of second grade
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            students? I picked second grade cuase it is one of my favorite grades the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            grade part is completely flexible i however want or need to stay in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            younger range as that is what my passsion is in.. I dont mind anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            emailing me personally to spare other in the group of emails or in the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            as I have seen a lot of OT strands already... Thanks so much for any help or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            adivice you can offer.. Shannon





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5347 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "I like to debate things, only way to really understand all viewpoints...and to make me realize I'm always right! haha ;)   I don't like reading nasty emails back and forth on these lists, so I hope it isn't taken as such!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, I have to say that this is an important thing that you have just written, and I agree 100%!  I would hate to live in a world without debate, but would love to live in a world without arguments.  Some people see them as the same thing, but we are having a debate.  If we were calling each other names like "snail bioload counter" and "otto no counter" we would be arguing. But why would we call each other names like that? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have to say, by the way, you seem to have the better argument about snails, I can't disagree that they do make a real mess.  I keep a yellow one in a gallon pickle jar because all my tanks are planted and he mowed down a big chunk of my 29 gallon when I first got him.  The bottom of the jar gets pretty bad pretty fast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "You said "That waste will not be released until the fish dies and decomposes."  What do you mean by that?  Fish produce waste while living...?  So perhaps I read that wrong."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I meant that they eat, release part of what they eat as waste, grow because of absorption of part of what they eat.  It is the part that is absorbed and makes them grow that I meant stays with the fish until it dies.  And of course you need to feed your ottos and corys, they look at you funny if you don't. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5348 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Bigger Bowl for Thai
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I took Thai (my betta) to work and put his little tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              on my desk. A co-worker fell in love with the tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              her betta is in a one gallon tank, and I offered to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              switch with her (Thai's tank is only about 1/2 gal.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We will probably be cleaning their tanks on Friday,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and that is when we plan to make the switch. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hardly wait. I know Thai will be pleasantly pleased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that he's moved from a cup to a 1/2 gal. tank, to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              still larger 1 gal. tank. I know it's not perfectly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ideal, but it's twice the size of what he's in now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and it's probably the biggest tank he'll have been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              his whole life. I feel sorry for my co-worker's fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but she was so determined to go out and buy one. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              jumped at the chance to put Thai in a bigger tank. : )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've been too busy to wash out that 55 gal. yet, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not ready to rush out and buy fish for it yet,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anyway. I'll probably do that this weekend (wash it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              out, that is). I've decided to get some fine rocks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cover the bottom with, and plant some plants in. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              was wondering if tiny aquarium gravel or sand was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              better... or maybe just leave them in pots (except for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the floating plants).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Lorelei


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5349 From: Phil Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "joequality1980"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <crazy.joe.walcek@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I added a gold gourami about 3 months ago. At first, he got chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > by a dwarf flame gourami for about a week, then the gold realized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > was bigger and became a bully. Since then, the gold relentlessly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > persues the poor flame all over the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sometimes, the gold also takes jabs at an angelfish too, so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > believe it depends on the individual fish. Also, both the flame and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gold are males, which increases hostility. Maybe I should put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gold into my cichlid tank for a day or two to put him in his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > place....


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I had the same problem, My flame chased my gold, the neon blue and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the pearl all over the tank. After a few days, the pearl became the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aggressor and chased everybody. Here was my solution. I placed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              agressor (the pearl) in a quarrantine container for a whole week. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other gouramis can see him but can't get to him and vice versa. After
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a week of confinement, I let him out and lo and behold, all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gouramis got along well!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5350 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Phosphate troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been using the Tap Water Purifier for all my water changes for quite some time. I have really started to have a problem with phosphates lately. I also am being overrun with hair algea. I tested my tap water (city water) the test read 2.0 with dry tab test kit. After filtering with the purifier and adding the additives that came with the purifier and a Ph neutral regulator my watre tested 10.0 with the same dry tab test kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I need some help here. Maybe I should just use the water right from the tap and stop using the purifier, but either way I have got to get the phosphates down in all my tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Help please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              37 gallon: 3 adult angels, 5 cherry barbs, and a pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon: 2 clown loaches, 5 swordtails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              20 gallon:  4 golddust mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon:  2 golddust mollies(babies)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5351 From: salmarcus Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Phosphate Troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been using the Tap Water Purifier for all my water changes for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              quite some time. I have really started to have a problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              phosphates lately. I also am being overrun with hair algea. I tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my tap water (city water) the test read 2.0 with dry tab test kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              After filtering with the purifier and adding the additives that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with the purifier and a Ph neutral regulator my watre tested 10.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with the same dry tab test kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I need some help here. Maybe I should just use the water right from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the tap and stop using the purifier, but either way I have got to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the phosphates down in all my tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Help please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Scott


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              37 gallon: 3 adult angels, 5 cherry barbs, and a pleco

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon: 2 clown loaches, 5 swordtails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              20 gallon: 4 golddust mollies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon: 2 golddust mollies(babies)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5352 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Gold Gourami problems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I did the same thing when I had 2 blue gouramis.  An interesting thing happened.  I put the aggressive one back into the tank, and the less aggressive one was now the aggressive one.  They had changed roles!  They almost killed each other, so they were separated.  The most injured one stayed with me and died a few weeks or a month later.  The stronger one is still alive after about a year of being gone to someone who works with my mother.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I had the same problem, My flame chased my gold, the neon blue and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the pearl all over the tank. After a few days, the pearl became the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                aggressor and chased everybody. Here was my solution. I placed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agressor (the pearl) in a quarrantine container for a whole week. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other gouramis can see him but can't get to him and vice versa. After
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a week of confinement, I let him out and lo and behold, all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gouramis got along well!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5353 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       If it is a living organism and it is in your tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                generally, i don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > right on that part. As for snails, if they are only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they take in unless you feed them extra food, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it is important for people to realize that a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > correct...so just remember to do as much research as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Christina




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5354 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquariums

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I'm not completely sure about your subject concerning youth and aquariums, and I noticed a strange relationship to aquariums, but it was indirect and happened while I was listening to G. Gordon Litty on radio at work. He was spouting about something equivalent to "tree-huggers" and "bleeding heart-liberals", and part of the topic was alarm about acidification of lakes, etc. His pseudo-scientific certainty maintained his epithetic focus about people concerned with acidification, by forcefully pointing out that the lakes were always acidic. Not long afterwards I realized acidification is gradual, and the fact that I maintained an aquarium was my practical relationship to the subject. I wrote a letter to his website, (which was'nt answered) explaining that gradually adding acid to water would result in increasing acidification, and continued with something that described a relationship to the atmosphere of the planet Venus. Taking the home aquarium environment into global water-problems was the first real sense I had to essences in water chemistry and health,  relating to acidification.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           PS...........I guess you know he was an FBI agent with a Jesuit education.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I was mentally compiling a listing of books while reading your post, until I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > got to your question. I know I have seen some things written concerning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > younger set and aquariums, but I think it is mostly anecdotal in nature, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I don't have the references right at hand. You might wish to take a look at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the "Fish Kidz" column in AFM, but most of the "kidz" who are asking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > questions are older than those in second grade.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What you might wish to do is to focus on observations and teaching the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > children the importance of observation. I do seem to recall a fairly recent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > article in AFM where the use of an aquarium in classrooms, but it would take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a while for me to lay my hands on it. I do believe that AFM now publishes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > index, so locating copies of those would most certainly help in your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Back to the observation part. You might wish to do some experiments with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > different aquaria with different fish and observe yourself the kinds of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the young ones find easiest to observe and make cogent comments (at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cogent for second graders) on behavior and the goings on in the tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you can come up with the right search terms, you may be able to find some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > interesting stuff using the search engine found at http://www.scirus.com. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just searches through scientific literature. That should give you some solid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > references to hang your hat on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; Aquarium_Building@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > DIY-Aquariums@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Fresh_and_Saltwater_Aquariums@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] OT HELP wanted...im doing my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > masters thesis on aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I decided today with the help of my advisor that I have such a passion for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish and aquariums that I am going to do my thesis on that such thing. Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > posting to the groups in which I participate in looking purely for advice or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help but mostly for professionally written journals, books, profesional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > magazines even anything you think that I might be able to use... I have 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > weeks to find 30 sources if I find them i get to keep my topic.. Whcih let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > me tell you i have been stressed over for 2 months trying to come up with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > topic... Just a tid bit of info Im a elementary school teacher subbing this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > year for my sanity but completing my masters degree.. My topic or question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sentence as we call it is.. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can a classroom aquarium contribute to scientific knowldege of second grade
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > students? I picked second grade cuase it is one of my favorite grades the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > grade part is completely flexible i however want or need to stay in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > younger range as that is what my passsion is in.. I dont mind anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > emailing me personally to spare other in the group of emails or in the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as I have seen a lot of OT strands already... Thanks so much for any help or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > adivice you can offer.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5355 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Scott,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think your purifier is exhausted, most once there media has become saturated then start replacing what they have removed back into the water, it sound like that is what is happening in your case. If your tap water is below par I would suggest you invest in an RO/DI filter unit that is what a great number of people in this hobby use.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Salmarcus@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have been using the Tap Water Purifier for all my water changes for quite some time. I have really started to have a problem with phosphates lately. I also am being overrun with hair algea. I tested my tap water (city water) the test read 2.0 with dry tab test kit. After filtering with the purifier and adding the additives that came with the purifier and a Ph neutral regulator my watre tested 10.0 with the same dry tab test kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I need some help here. Maybe I should just use the water right from the tap and stop using the purifier, but either way I have got to get the phosphates down in all my tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Help please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                37 gallon: 3 adult angels, 5 cherry barbs, and a pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon: 2 clown loaches, 5 swordtails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                20 gallon:  4 golddust mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon:  2 golddust mollies(babies)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5356 From: paul helms Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would appreciate it if you would state is as such, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                post was stated as opinion, i think that we would all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > correct...so just remember to do as much research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5357 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ive been told gourmais dont do well in groups i have one blue one and he does fine by himself.. he has 3 bleeding heart tetras, 2 sliver hatchet fish 2 newly named rasbora heteromorpha 4 neon tetras few cory algae eater and 3 fogs.. so my gourami gets along with all of those.. I like the hatchet fish cause they stay at the top and have been such cool fish to watch.. the bleeding hearts are cool for the heart on them that is red other than that they dont do much but grow lol.. neons are my fav cuase of their color but they always seems to nip at eachother and get hurt makes me mad.. oh yea i had a rosy barb but i recently lost her it is too soon after her death i cant get anything to replace her she was big like 6 inches.. so now my tank kinda feel empty.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just finished cyceling my 55 gallon tank and ready to start adding fish. I'm thinking of have some gouramis as my center piece so to speak and was wondering how many and what kind would do best together.  I'm going to add 5 or 6 cory cats for sure and was also wondering what other fish might go well with the gouramis?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rob   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5358 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb, You can keep Angels in a PH of 7.6-8.0 . I have kept them before but they will spawn only in acidic PH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Captain Kidd [mailto:captainkidd@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 21 September 2004 22:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My pH is about 7.6-8.0 and the wife wants angel fish, is there a what to keep them?  I have been doing some test with the pH down stuff and it will climb right back up like the next day, but if I add some Easy Balance to the water it stays at 7.0 I've had a jug setting for over 3 weeks and the pH has not changed.  Since I'll be doing weekly water changes would this method be a safe way to keep the pH at 7.0 or would Angels do ok in a higher pH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Don’t bother with the PH. Let it be what it is as fluctuating PH can do more harm then an incorrect stable PH. Infact most of the fish you have I think can do fine in high PH so don’t even think about trying to mend it. It is usually a losing battle where eventually the PH will rise back to near what it originally was unless you know very well what you are doing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 21 September 2004 16:59
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Patrick [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: I got results...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok will do... im also wondering if i should use the PH down that I bought a while back... thanks shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, to get an exact number you would need a liquid test kit, but the one you have will do for now.  I suggest doing 50% water changes every day. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5359 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so thinking that my fish was preggo which it isnt.. it prolly has dropsy swhcih by the way is looking much better now that my tank is much better.. what is the process that egg layers go through.. vs a live birth... are all tetras egg layers.. thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5360 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you should be able to tell dropsy are the scales raised on her? if they are thats dropsy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras are egg layers, most i believe will scatter their eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/22/04 07:52:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so thinking that my fish was preggo which it isnt.. it prolly has dropsy swhcih by the way is looking much better now that my tank is much better.. what is the process that egg layers go through.. vs a live birth... are all tetras egg layers.. thanks shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5361 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                she was all flaky and now it seems to have subscided yet still a bit bloated looking.. heck i have no clue what is going on.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you should be able to tell dropsy are the scales raised on her? if they are thats dropsy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras are egg layers, most i believe will scatter their eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5362 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       That is not my opinion.  It is a statement of fact, any living thing except bacteria produces ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you name me a living fish, critter, whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You state, "they are processing waste, resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up what was left behind" if you refer to yours and Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing it. the only things that consume ammonia in your aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         If I say some thing I am not sure of I will say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would appreciate it if you would state is as such, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                post was stated as opinion, i think that we would all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > correct...so just remember to do as much research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5363 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What Paul was trying to emphasize was that having critters that are not deliberately fed and rely on left over food and waste will produce the same amount of ammonia as the rotting food that they have eaten. Had they not eaten that food or rotting stuff, that would probably pollute the water more then when they consumed it and processed it to release ammonia and other wastes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Obviously, you cannot have more ammonia in the water then the amount of food you put in.. or can you? So if the critters are not deliberately fed and the amount of food going in the tank is the same, it will not increase the bioload in terms of ammonia but it will increase the bio-load in terms of available oxygen and CO2 production.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 09:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       That is not my opinion.  It is a statement of fact, any living thing except bacteria produces ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you name me a living fish, critter, whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting bacteria of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You state, "they are processing waste, resulting in less ammonia"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up what was left behind" if you refer to yours and Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing it. the only things that consume ammonia in your aquarium are aerobic bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         If I say some thing I am not sure of I will say it is my opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would appreciate it if you would state is as such, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                post was stated as opinion, i think that we would all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- " Norman . S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > correct...so just remember to do as much research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5364 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           That is not what he said!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes you can have more ammonia than is produced by the food chain but the amounts are usually quite small if any, but thats another story. If my post appeared as a reply to you I'm sorry I was replying to Paul.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What Paul was trying to emphasize was that having critters that are not deliberately fed and rely on left over food and waste will produce the same amount of ammonia as the rotting food that they have eaten. Had they not eaten that food or rotting stuff, that would probably pollute the water more then when they consumed it and processed it to release ammonia and other wastes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Obviously, you cannot have more ammonia in the water then the amount of food you put in.. or can you? So if the critters are not deliberately fed and the amount of food going in the tank is the same, it will not increase the bioload in terms of ammonia but it will increase the bio-load in terms of available oxygen and CO2 production.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 09:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       That is not my opinion.  It is a statement of fact, any living thing except bacteria produces ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you name me a living fish, critter, whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting bacteria of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You state, "they are processing waste, resulting in less ammonia"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up what was left behind" if you refer to yours and Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing it. the only things that consume ammonia in your aquarium are aerobic bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         If I say some thing I am not sure of I will say it is my opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would appreciate it if you would state is as such, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                post was stated as opinion, i think that we would all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- " Norman . S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > correct...so just remember to do as much research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5365 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Unclenorm,(feels nice to call some one uncle ;) )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I know the post was not directed at me and there is no need to be sorry for it. What I mentioned was what I understood from Paul’s and Patrick’s conversation. I apologise if I misunderstood it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 10:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           That is not what he said!.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes you can have more ammonia than is produced by the food chain but the amounts are usually quite small if any, but thats another story. If my post appeared as a reply to you I'm sorry I was replying to Paul.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What Paul was trying to emphasize was that having critters that are not deliberately fed and rely on left over food and waste will produce the same amount of ammonia as the rotting food that they have eaten. Had they not eaten that food or rotting stuff, that would probably pollute the water more then when they consumed it and processed it to release ammonia and other wastes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Obviously, you cannot have more ammonia in the water then the amount of food you put in.. or can you? So if the critters are not deliberately fed and the amount of food going in the tank is the same, it will not increase the bioload in terms of ammonia but it will increase the bio-load in terms of available oxygen and CO2 production.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 09:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       That is not my opinion.  It is a statement of fact, any living thing except bacteria produces ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you name me a living fish, critter, whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting bacteria of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You state, "they are processing waste, resulting in less ammonia"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up what was left behind" if you refer to yours and Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing it. the only things that consume ammonia in your aquarium are aerobic bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         If I say some thing I am not sure of I will say it is my opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would appreciate it if you would state is as such, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                post was stated as opinion, i think that we would all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- " Norman . S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > correct...so just remember to do as much research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5366 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       No problem, I thought my post had gone astray somehow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  unclenorm.  ( you could probably call me granddad !! )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Unclenorm,(feels nice to call some one uncle ;) )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I know the post was not directed at me and there is no need to be sorry for it. What I mentioned was what I understood from Paul’s and Patrick’s conversation. I apologise if I misunderstood it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 10:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           That is not what he said!.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes you can have more ammonia than is produced by the food chain but the amounts are usually quite small if any, but thats another story. If my post appeared as a reply to you I'm sorry I was replying to Paul.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What Paul was trying to emphasize was that having critters that are not deliberately fed and rely on left over food and waste will produce the same amount of ammonia as the rotting food that they have eaten. Had they not eaten that food or rotting stuff, that would probably pollute the water more then when they consumed it and processed it to release ammonia and other wastes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Obviously, you cannot have more ammonia in the water then the amount of food you put in.. or can you? So if the critters are not deliberately fed and the amount of food going in the tank is the same, it will not increase the bioload in terms of ammonia but it will increase the bio-load in terms of available oxygen and CO2 production.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 09:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Bioloads and pH

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paul,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       That is not my opinion.  It is a statement of fact, any living thing except bacteria produces ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you name me a living fish, critter, whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting bacteria of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You state, "they are processing waste, resulting in less ammonia"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up what was left behind" if you refer to yours and Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing it. the only things that consume ammonia in your aquarium are aerobic bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         If I say some thing I am not sure of I will say it is my opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would appreciate it if you would state is as such, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                post was stated as opinion, i think that we would all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- " Norman . S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was meant for other fish, then even with the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > digestion, there is now less waste produced. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > same as you count something like a tetra, gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comes to that. But often you can cause more issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > personal experience. Just because something works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > mean it will for another. And I often read advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > correct...so just remember to do as much research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on purpose, they just are going on what they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5367 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I like the look of sand in an aquarium with small drifts of rock or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel throughought. But what matters to the plants most is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                substrate. I like a mix of peat moss (chunky), vermiculite, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                laterite, mixed with enough water to make it rather doughy. Then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spread on the tank floor. Then top that with your sand/gravel/rocks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Then add your water, gently, so the stuff doesn't float up and all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                over the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I've been too busy to wash out that 55 gal. yet, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm not ready to rush out and buy fish for it yet,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anyway. I'll probably do that this weekend (wash it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > out, that is). I've decided to get some fine rocks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cover the bottom with, and plant some plants in. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was wondering if tiny aquarium gravel or sand was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > better... or maybe just leave them in pots (except for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the floating plants).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5368 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Only Platies, mollies, sword tails, guppies, Ameca splendens (Goodie), Half beaks are the common livebearers. Rest other fish are egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras, cichlids, barbs, rasboras, danios, catfish, loaches, etc…. a never ending list , are all egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The basics of spawning of egg layers is: The female scatters the egg in open water/lays the eggs on rock or leaves/ inside the gravel or in caves and the males run over the eggs fertilizing them. Mouth brooders have a peculiar way of laying eggs and the female gulping the eggs and the male fertilizes the eggs in her mouth or on way. All fertilizations are external and so the fish are never pregnant. These fish are called oviparous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Livebearers have an internal fertilization process where the female has ready eggs in her belly and the male fertilizes them using a gonopodium (name for the organ in Poeciliidae family) and the female incubates the eggs inside until they are ready to hatch and the live fry are expelled. These fish are called ovoviviparous (a contrast between oviparous and viviparous).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Viviparous are when the entire embryo development is in the female body without the use of egg casing and the embryo is connected to the mother for nutritional and other needs by some means. (Mammals)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 07:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so thinking that my fish was preggo which it isnt.. it prolly has dropsy swhcih by the way is looking much better now that my tank is much better.. what is the process that egg layers go through.. vs a live birth... are all tetras egg layers.. thanks shannon



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5369 From: shortlid Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Gouramis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a blue Gourami and a gold Gourami in my 30 gal. tank both are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the same size about 2 ½ inches. They get along fine with each other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (must be females). But about two weeks ago the gold started to hide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                behind the plants at the bottom of the tank. While the blue hung out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                up top where they use to chill? The gold was in fine shape at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                time when she first started hiding at the bottom. Then a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                days ago I saw my Black Molly chasing her? Just this morning I saw
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that the gold has damage to her rear fin and can barely swim! She
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just sits on the bottom, and some times falls over, what should I do!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joel


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ive been told gourmais dont do well in groups i have one blue one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and he does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fine by himself.. he has 3 bleeding heart tetras, 2 sliver hatchet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > newly named rasbora heteromorpha 4 neon tetras few cory algae eater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and 3 fogs..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so my gourami gets along with all of those.. I like the hatchet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they stay at the top and have been such cool fish to watch.. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bleeding hearts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are cool for the heart on them that is red other than that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dont do much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but grow lol.. neons are my fav cuase of their color but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                always seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nip at eachother and get hurt makes me mad.. oh yea i had a rosy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                barb but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recently lost her it is too soon after her death i cant get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                anything to replace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > her she was big like 6 inches.. so now my tank kinda feel empty..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hello all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I just finished cyceling my 55 gallon tank and ready to start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                adding fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm thinking of have some gouramis as my center piece so to speak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wondering how many and what kind would do best together. I'm going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to add 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cory cats for sure and was also wondering what other fish might go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gouramis?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Rob
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5370 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 402
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >dont know why, but we were abondoned by this former member who left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >with a bad taste in her mouth (must have swalloed some pond water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >while diving with the wetsuit on)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't know why she thought it was exclusively a "pond group" ... considering the NAME of the group is "Freshwater Tropical Aquarium". *shrugs* I specifically chose to join THIS group on yahoo because of its focus on freshwater tropical aquaria. If that makes me "frantic", because I choose to utilize this group once in a while as a resource if I need help, so be it, that's what the group is for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 >  I'll agree that in a somewhat heavily planted tank, you don't need to deeply siphon in the gravel.  I just clean >around/above the gravel when I am taking water out for water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hmm ... I'll have to give this a shot in my tank ... just vacuum up the debris laying on top. My only problem with that technique that I can foresee is that I have a snail infestation. (Had A Snail didn't work, so I'm having to just smoosh the snails with a flat peice of plastic that is part of the breeder box, gives the platies a treat. They like to eat the snails once they are smooshed.) The snails keep reproducing, and their babies are all underneath the substrate, giving off more waste than my fish do.  They're wreaking havoc on my aponogetons too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I am going to put him in the 55 gal. in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >divided section that will give him approx. 5 gallons.  I need to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >safe aquarium cleaner that will take the hard water stains off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >sides (unless someone has another safe way to get them off).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lorelai, bettas can coexist peacefully in a community tank. It all depends on the individual fish, and what other fish you have in the tank. Thai might display himself more spectacularly given lots more room to swim, as well. :) Added bonus! Incidintally ... my six year old daughter has a betta in a 2 gallon Explorer tank, and he's quite happy there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As to the hard water stains, I've heard white vinegar recommended. To be honest, when I first got my aquarium (second hand), I used Calcium Lime Rust remover chemical. (yes, it's noxious stuff, but I didn't have ANY fish in it at that point, and I rinsed afterwards thoroughly and repeatedly.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5371 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Water Chemistry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Next time I decide to play around with the water chemistry in one of my tanks going to have to remember to think before acting. I decided to just mess around with my 50 gallon tanks chemistry mainly for fun of it and to establish more natural water conditions for a South American tank.. Well I got it half right, I used seachem acid buffer to reduce the pH by converting kH to CO2. The problem is I neglected the gH so now I have hard acidic water. End results being pH of 6.8 and gH of 12. Not sure of the kH but obviously low enough that it could no longer buffer the pH around 8. So next step will be running peat in the filter and expirement with diluting tap water with distilled water. All the while I'll try not to bottom out the pH. Luckily at this point im just experimenting around. Only downside are the fish living in the tank while im experimenting. No casualities thus far but with my slip up on the hardness now I'll have a little more fun not spiking things with the reduced buffering capacity of the kH. So for now it will be experiment on water for water changes instead of main tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5372 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Water Chemistry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Peat will also not reduce your GH. It will only reduce KH practically the same way as the acid buffer. I have very hard water from my tap (GH 25-30, KH 30, PH 8.4) I used PH down and CO2 addition with success and my tank water sits more or less stable at PH 6.6. But I am getting rid of soft water loving fish slowly as this has been too much of a painful job to keep up as the water added during water changes has to be of lower PH then the tank as during water changes a lot of CO2 is lost and the water starts to rise in PH. Not as simple as what the bottles on the counter say and certainly not a thing to mess around with unless you use RO water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Jonathan Hartsoe [mailto:jhartsoe@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 15:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water Chemistry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Next time I decide to play around with the water chemistry in one of my tanks going to have to remember to think before acting. I decided to just mess around with my 50 gallon tanks chemistry mainly for fun of it and to establish more natural water conditions for a South American tank.. Well I got it half right, I used seachem acid buffer to reduce the pH by converting kH to CO2. The problem is I neglected the gH so now I have hard acidic water. End results being pH of 6.8 and gH of 12. Not sure of the kH but obviously low enough that it could no longer buffer the pH around 8. So next step will be running peat in the filter and expirement with diluting tap water with distilled water. All the while I'll try not to bottom out the pH. Luckily at this point im just experimenting around. Only downside are the fish living in the tank while im experimenting. No casualities thus far but with my slip up on the hardness now I'll have a little more fun not spiking things with the reduced buffering capacity of the kH. So for now it will be experiment on water for water changes instead of main tank.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5373 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Water Chemistry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Your going in the reverse direction I've taken I keep african cichlids for the exact reason my water meets their requirements so all I have to do is water changes rarely have to check anything. Will say this I'll do a little more experimenting on the water for now but most likely I see a small RO unit in my future atleast then electrolytes will be my main issue and cured by salt additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water Chemistry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Peat will also not reduce your GH. It will only reduce KH practically the same way as the acid buffer. I have very hard water from my tap (GH 25-30, KH 30, PH 8.4) I used PH down and CO2 addition with success and my tank water sits more or less stable at PH 6.6. But I am getting rid of soft water loving fish slowly as this has been too much of a painful job to keep up as the water added during water changes has to be of lower PH then the tank as during water changes a lot of CO2 is lost and the water starts to rise in PH. Not as simple as what the bottles on the counter say and certainly not a thing to mess around with unless you use RO water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Jonathan Hartsoe [mailto:jhartsoe@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 15:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water Chemistry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Next time I decide to play around with the water chemistry in one of my tanks going to have to remember to think before acting. I decided to just mess around with my 50 gallon tanks chemistry mainly for fun of it and to establish more natural water conditions for a South American tank.. Well I got it half right, I used seachem acid buffer to reduce the pH by converting kH to CO2. The problem is I neglected the gH so now I have hard acidic water. End results being pH of 6.8 and gH of 12. Not sure of the kH but obviously low enough that it could no longer buffer the pH around 8. So next step will be running peat in the filter and expirement with diluting tap water with distilled water. All the while I'll try not to bottom out the pH. Luckily at this point im just experimenting around. Only downside are the fish living in the tank while im experimenting. No casualities thus far but with my slip up on the hardness now I'll have a little more fun not spiking things with the reduced buffering capacity of the kH. So for now it will be experiment on water for water changes instead of main tank.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5374 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5375 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: OK, so I'm Lazy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry folks I just got back "on-line" to the tune of 1,178 messages .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To keep from going nut'z I'm committing a mass delete , if I missed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                something please re-send to my addy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mbethke@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So what's up?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5376 From: dawnmvo Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                because it is not refrigerated, even after I open it. All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stuff if dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ANy thoghts on this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5377 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah most of them wouldn't have had the damage they have from catching themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The one we had with the hole in its operculum has died :(:(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/22/04 16:21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5378 From: crickit99 Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, I will be the first to admit that I am a tad anal when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comes to my pets, including my fish. I'm very much a planner,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                although I have no patience! And if it has anything to do w/ my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tanks, fish, or future ideas, I make sure I know as much as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                possible. I am a snail bioload counter, haha, and proud of it. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would like to mention that fish, shrimp, etc. do not eat the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of others. They eat food they find, algae, and whatever else is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the tank that is in their diet. If someone can correct me, please do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Plants and bacteria do use that waste.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And I am also seeing mention of 'clean up' fish not being fed food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just leftovers. I don't feel that is a viable argument, since you do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have to feed them in addition to the leftovers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And if Ottos and Cories didn't contrinute to the bioload, why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                couldn't you just have a 10 gallon tank w/ 4 platies and 6 cories and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 ottos? They don't contribute, right? I don't agree with that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All fish are different. There is an arguement that if you feed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                goldfish and a gourami the same amount, the same amount of waste is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                produced. Now, those 2 fish wouldn't eat the same amount of food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and they both process their food differently. A full grown Oscar's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bioload is a lot greater than the same total inches in Neon Tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Even in the same species, fish have different metabolisms. Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish eat more than others, some digest more of the food than others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I haven't read too much on this site, but it's been good reading so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.biology-online.org/tutorials/6_freshwater_ecology.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5379 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Brown Algae/To Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Otos are very good for algae and can live with cories.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Otos like friends so it's best to keep at least two. Your other option for an algae eater in the 20g-depending on your current stock-would be a bristlenose plec, again a very good algae eater. They grow to ~4-5" and do well by themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Both otos and plecs like supplementary veggies. I also grow 'algae rocks' in a container full of water on a window ledge, they appreciate those as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Since I do give them, as well as my cories, additional food I count them in the bio-load ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sounds good, it must be the lights.  I only have 8 Black Neon's in my 10 gallon tank and 6 Gold Barbs and 2 zebra dianos in my 20 gallon tank. I feed one time a day in the mourning and try to remove all unseating food before I leave for work. What you do think of Otocinclus catfish?  I've read they are good for algae?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Could I added 2 or 3 to my 10 gallon with the 8 back neon tetra in them? I'm also thinking of added 3 or 4 more Zebra Dianos to my 20 gallon tank and them maybe 3 or 4 catfish, I was thinking Cory's, but with the algae problems maybe I'll do otco's?  Can corys and Octos live happy together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5380 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cories are good bottom feeders. You might also want to consider a plec or otos for algae.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For the middle of your tank you could have a school or two of tetras, barbs, danios, rasboras. Or maybe one school plus some sort of peaceful cichlid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A good idea would be to visit your lfs, see what's available and interests you, then research size, space, and compatability from there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Robb Rouse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just finished cyceling my 55 gallon tank and ready to start adding fish. I'm thinking of have some gouramis as my center piece so to speak and was wondering how many and what kind would do best together.  I'm going to add 5 or 6 cory cats for sure and was also wondering what other fish might go well with the gouramis?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5381 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks Nim.. when i was at petsmart the other day this girl was talking about how her zebra danios had all died she had them in a elclipse tank without a heater... and when she was going to clean the tank out she noticed babies swimming around.. so i was like if she got those danios to breed in what sounds like a poor condition it must be easy... i was also wondering if those ones were born livesouinds like thye might not have been... anyhow im not looking ot breed just wondering about the what if's lol shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Only Platies, mollies, sword tails, guppies, Ameca splendens (Goodie), Half beaks are the common livebearers. Rest other fish are egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras, cichlids, barbs, rasboras, danios, catfish, loaches, etc…. a never ending list , are all egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The basics of spawning of egg layers is: The female scatters the egg in open water/lays the eggs on rock or leaves/ inside the gravel or in caves and the males run over the eggs fertilizing them. Mouth brooders have a peculiar way of laying eggs and the female gulping the eggs and the male fertilizes the eggs in her mouth or on way. All fertilizations are external and so the fish are never pregnant. These fish are called oviparous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Livebearers have an internal fertilization process where the female has ready eggs in her belly and the male fertilizes them using a gonopodium (name for the organ in Poeciliidae family) and the female incubates the eggs inside until they are ready to hatch and the live fry are expelled. These fish are called ovoviviparous (a contrast between oviparous and viviparous).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Viviparous are when the entire embryo development is in the female body without the use of egg casing and the embryo is connected to the mother for nutritional and other needs by some means. (Mammals)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5382 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Don't forget Endler's and mosquito fish ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Only Platies, mollies, sword tails, guppies, Ameca splendens (Goodie), Half beaks are the common livebearers. Rest other fish are egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras, cichlids, barbs, rasboras, danios, catfish, loaches, etc…. a never ending list , are all egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5383 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5384 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bumps and scrapes on my snails usually look like scratches or if it was a very hard hit, like onto the edge of a flower pot, the outer layer will be broken like a split finger nail.  Extra calcium will also help snails repair those types of problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One pretty good way to tell is to look at the spire part, it should be smooth and the same color as the rest of the snail.  If it's whitish or rough looking, that's erosion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is my first snail, she came from the pet store looking like this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                These are snails I hatched from my own clutches, see the difference?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't know if carbon removes the calcium or not, I don't use carbon on my tanks.  I'll check into it and post back here for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Mark J. Bethke [mailto:mbethke@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5385 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Glad to hear your fish are doing better. Yes, all Tetras are egglayers. When spawning, the male and female will swim side by side into a plant thicket and she will deposit her eggs into the plants while he fertilizes the released eggs. Sorry about the blank previous post; I mistakenly double clicked on "Reply" instead of single click to open it up for my writing, and of course went through like a shot without my being able to write anything. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5386 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure they are some things in the $5 bottle that might help, but I'm also sure it won't speed up the process.  I have cycled with pure ammonia 6 different tanks and none have them have taking over 2 weeks to cycle.  There is a product called bio-spear that will cycle your tank over night.  It's cost about $20 for enough for a 55 gallon tank (where I live).  I have never used it.  I always figured $1 for enough ammonia for 10 (or more) tanks was a better deal. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The person at my LFS has cycled both ways and he tell me he fells better with a fishless cycle than the bio-spear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: dawnmvo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                because it is not refrigerated, even after I open it.  All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stuff if  dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ANy thoghts on this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Dawn



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5387 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lorelei, When you get to setting up the 55 gallon tank, do not use sand as it is too fine for the plant roots to properly penetrate. Some people use whats called # 3 aquarium gravel. The grains are approximately 1/16" in diameter; much larger than sand grains, but not too large. I would suggest using something of this size for your substrate. I noticed it was suggested to use peat and or vermiculite. Never tried it myself, but sounds like its worth a try if you follow the directions for it. Your LFS should stear you right, provided you don't ask one of the chain stores (Petsmart, etc.). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5388 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I got this from a water quality web site about filters for drinking water, I would think it would still apply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Carbon filters will not remove bacteria, calcium and magnesium (hard water), fluorides, nitrates, chlorides and many other inorganic chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From this site http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/ip/ip6s/ip6s.htm  under "how activated carbon structure works"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Also in the first paragraph of this site.  http://www.berber.com/water/activated_carbon_filters.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We have put some calcium in our tanks for the snails, question is will carbon remover Calcium?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5389 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, It is very much possible that they spawned in the tank before going belly up and the eggs hatched later. It happens very frequently and has happened with me too. Dwarf neon rainbows were breeding like rabbits and I wanted to get rid of all of them.. so some one managed to come by and pick them up and all the young ones from the grow out tank as well. left that tank as it is with a few plecs to keep it cycles for the breeding angels to go in there and after 10 days or so it was swarming with dwarf neon young ones just entered into the free swimming stage. Snails in the tank kept them alive and feeding so they all grew and were yet again given away… this time before they matured.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 16:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks Nim.. when i was at petsmart the other day this girl was talking about how her zebra danios had all died she had them in a elclipse tank without a heater... and when she was going to clean the tank out she noticed babies swimming around.. so i was like if she got those danios to breed in what sounds like a poor condition it must be easy... i was also wondering if those ones were born livesouinds like thye might not have been... anyhow im not looking ot breed just wondering about the what if's lol shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Only Platies, mollies, sword tails, guppies, Ameca splendens (Goodie), Half beaks are the common livebearers. Rest other fish are egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras, cichlids, barbs, rasboras, danios, catfish, loaches, etc…. a never ending list , are all egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The basics of spawning of egg layers is: The female scatters the egg in open water/lays the eggs on rock or leaves/ inside the gravel or in caves and the males run over the eggs fertilizing them. Mouth brooders have a peculiar way of laying eggs and the female gulping the eggs and the male fertilizes the eggs in her mouth or on way. All fertilizations are external and so the fish are never pregnant. These fish are called oviparous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Livebearers have an internal fertilization process where the female has ready eggs in her belly and the male fertilizes them using a gonopodium (name for the organ in Poeciliidae family) and the female incubates the eggs inside until they are ready to hatch and the live fry are expelled. These fish are called ovoviviparous (a contrast between oviparous and viviparous).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Viviparous are when the entire embryo development is in the female body without the use of egg casing and the embryo is connected to the mother for nutritional and other needs by some means. (Mammals)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5390 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa, Endler’s is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito fish. Thanks for the reminder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 16:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Don't forget Endler's and mosquito fish ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3x 2g-one female and two male bettas

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Only Platies, mollies, sword tails, guppies, Ameca splendens (Goodie), Half beaks are the common livebearers. Rest other fish are egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All tetras, cichlids, barbs, rasboras, danios, catfish, loaches, etc…. a never ending list , are all egg layers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5391 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Carbon VS Calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, I think carbon removed tri and tetra valent metals and aromatic organic compounds and also organics with a tendency to form polymers (esters etc.). Beyond this it can only house beneficial bacteria due to its porous nature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 18:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I got this from a water quality web site about filters for drinking water, I would think it would still apply

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Carbon filters will not remove bacteria, calcium and magnesium (hard water), fluorides, nitrates, chlorides and many other inorganic chemicals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From this site http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/ip/ip6s/ip6s.htm  under "how activated carbon structure works"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Also in the first paragraph of this site.  http://www.berber.com/water/activated_carbon_filters.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hope this helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We have put some calcium in our tanks for the snails, question is will carbon remover Calcium?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5392 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you can have a tank with 6 cories, 4 platty's and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                otto's with proper filtration and feeding, but your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                clean up crew, if being introduced to clean up uneaten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                food should not out number the regualr fish. we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not saying that schools of them are not counted, only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                when you are using them as cleaners, and not target
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                feeding them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- crickit99 <crickit99@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well, I will be the first to admit that I am a tad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anal when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > comes to my pets, including my fish. I'm very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a planner,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > although I have no patience! And if it has anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to do w/ my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tanks, fish, or future ideas, I make sure I know as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > much as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > possible. I am a snail bioload counter, haha, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > proud of it. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would like to mention that fish, shrimp, etc. do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not eat the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of others. They eat food they find, algae, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > whatever else is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the tank that is in their diet. If someone can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > correct me, please do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Plants and bacteria do use that waste.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And I am also seeing mention of 'clean up' fish not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > being fed food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just leftovers. I don't feel that is a viable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > argument, since you do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have to feed them in addition to the leftovers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And if Ottos and Cories didn't contrinute to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bioload, why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > couldn't you just have a 10 gallon tank w/ 4 platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and 6 cories and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 ottos? They don't contribute, right? I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > agree with that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > All fish are different. There is an arguement that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if you feed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > goldfish and a gourami the same amount, the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amount of waste is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > produced. Now, those 2 fish wouldn't eat the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amount of food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and they both process their food differently. A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > full grown Oscar's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bioload is a lot greater than the same total inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in Neon Tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Even in the same species, fish have different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > metabolisms. Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish eat more than others, some digest more of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > food than others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I haven't read too much on this site, but it's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > good reading so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.biology-online.org/tutorials/6_freshwater_ecology.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5393 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                personally, i do not like cycle because it makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                claims that it can't back up. no matter how you cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a tank, it will not be ready in three days. there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                isno way for the bacteria to colonize the filters in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > because it is not refrigerated, even after I open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it. All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > stuff if dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5394 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I confess my ignorance!  Are you agreeing or disagreeing??  My Father is a chemical engineer and you post sounds like something he would say lol.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, I think carbon removed tri and tetra valent metals and aromatic organic compounds and also organics with a tendency to form polymers (esters etc.). Beyond this it can only house beneficial bacteria due to its porous nature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 22 September 2004 18:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I got this from a water quality web site about filters for drinking water, I would think it would still apply

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5395 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can't have more ammonia from the same amount of food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i will grant that there may be additional ammonia form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the urine of the fish, but this amount will be minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in compaarison to what they have stopped from rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would appreciate it if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > personal experience. Just because something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > mean it will for another. And I often read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > correct...so just remember to do as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > on purpose, they just are going on what they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5396 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would like to mention that fish, shrimp, etc. do not eat the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of others. They eat food they find, algae, and whatever else is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the tank that is in their diet. If someone can correct me, please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am hardly an expert, but I have SEEN my daughters ghost shrimp and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                even cories actually consuming the...erm...end product of the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the aquarium. Bleah. Grossed my daughter out completley, but she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                loves them anyway. What they don't use, the plants seem to clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5397 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have only heard of a few people who liked that product. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agree with Paul, they make unlikely claims. Bio spira, on the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hand, doesn't claim to cycle a tank instantly. This is ironic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                because many people who have used it said that their tank was in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fact cycled in less than 2 days. I personally wouldn't count only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                on a bottle to cycle a tank in less than 2 weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5398 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry for your gastropodian loss<]:~(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Did you ever figure out how the shell became eroded? I ask as Calcium deficiency might not be the answer, if the whole shell is brittle than I would side with that conclusion.  On the other hand being that it seemed like a hole worn into the shell I would think it might be a matter of abrasion possibly from repeatedly catching it's shell on a rock or some object that after a while would create a hole. Either way you didn't state whether the other apple snails had a holes . The operculum being damaged suggests that you have a predator ?? Could you list possible canidates such as some loaches or crayfish. If this information was already given than I will search the achives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BTW, A simple patch from CA glue (medium viscosity) using a piece of old shell from one long gone and attached around the edges as not to come in contact with the mantle would work nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah most of them wouldn't have had the damage they have from catching themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The one we had with the hole in its operculum has died :(:(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/22/04 16:21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5399 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greeting Brian,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Eroded spire is somewhat natural especially in thin walled shells. They do grow out from the spire and once it has grown past that area it can't fix it's shell. I have seen missing spires on other shells both thin and thick walled , mostly from coraline deposits in marine , low Ph in fresh . Either way the mantle and other living parts of the mollusc have moved further from the spire.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                An exception to the rule is the group called cypraeadae ( cypraea or cowries as they are commonly called)  as it's spire is buried inside the mature shell and the mantle covers the whole shell thus giving it a glassy finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You would be happy to hear that ridding the tank of them is easier than losing them, they are magnificent breeders.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As for calcium uptake in carbon I would side with doubt. I have yet to see a fall in Ph after changing out carbon but a good point as I don't claim  to be a chemist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for the reply,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bumps and scrapes on my snails usually look like scratches or if it was a very hard hit, like onto the edge of a flower pot, the outer layer will be broken like a split finger nail.  Extra calcium will also help snails repair those types of problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One pretty good way to tell is to look at the spire part, it should be smooth and the same color as the rest of the snail.  If it's whitish or rough looking, that's erosion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is my first snail, she came from the pet store looking like this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                These are snails I hatched from my own clutches, see the difference?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't know if carbon removes the calcium or not, I don't use carbon on my tanks.  I'll check into it and post back here for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Mark J. Bethke [mailto:mbethke@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5400 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But I did replace the canister and still received the high phosphate reading. That is why I am so puzzled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5401 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the tip. I added #3 gravel to my shopping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  list and crossed off the sand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei, When you get to setting up the 55 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tank, do not use sand as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  is too fine for the plant roots to properly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  penetrate. Some people use whats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  called # 3 aquarium gravel.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5402 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wow, I like this idea, as well. I'm going to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  this in mind, as well. And Erin, thanks for the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  on bettas in a community tank. This group is awesome!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ************************************


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I like the look of sand in an aquarium with small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  drifts of rock or gravel throughought. But what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  matters to the plants most is the substrate. I like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a mix of peat moss (chunky), vermiculite, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  laterite, mixed with enough water to make it rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  doughy. Then spread on the tank floor. Then top that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with your sand/gravel/rocks. Then add your water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gently, so the stuff doesn't float up and all over the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5403 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will take some photos of the damaged snails shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We are adding the Calcium and it seems to be working. I have also hidden a piece of Cuttlefish in the back of the tank to help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/22/04 20:20:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greetings Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry for your gastropodian loss<]:~(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did you ever figure out how the shell became eroded? I ask as Calcium deficiency might not be the answer, if the whole shell is brittle than I would side with that conclusion.  On the other hand being that it seemed like a hole worn into the shell I would think it might be a matter of abrasion possibly from repeatedly catching it's shell on a rock or some object that after a while would create a hole. Either way you didn't state whether the other apple snails had a holes . The operculum being damaged suggests that you have a predator ?? Could you list possible canidates such as some loaches or crayfish. If this information was already given than I will search the achives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  BTW, A simple patch from CA glue (medium viscosity) using a piece of old shell from one long gone and attached around the edges as not to come in contact with the mantle would work nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah most of them wouldn't have had the damage they have from catching themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one we had with the hole in its operculum has died :(:(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/22/04 16:21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5404 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Our Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did anyone look at our photos?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What did you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5405 From: dawnmvo Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: thanks for the cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  everyone, I guess I will stop buying it then. So do any of you put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  anyting in your tanks, or just really keep up with water changes? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  use waste control, but I don't know if it does a darn thing!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks again

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5406 From: bryants4god Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Our Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I looked at them.  Your tank is awesome, I have never seen one curved like that before!  Is the clown loach actually in the tank with your snails?  They don't go well together.  You might want to check this out.  http://www.applesnail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3105&highlight=clown+loach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Our Photos!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did anyone look at our photos?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What did you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5407 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Today is day three of adding ammonia to my new 25 gallon aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  After looking at about six different places for the ammonia, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  finally DID find the clear pure "Sea Mist" ammonia at WalMart. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  woman at the check out counter asked if it was a new product,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  because she'd never seen it before that day... and I was apparently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the third customer that checked out with it on that day. Makes me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wonder if lots of people are learning to cycle new tanks! :~) It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  makes me nervous to keep adding the ammonia w/out having my test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yet, but I'm just adding a capful each day, so surely I won't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  overdoing it! I have my fingers crossed that all will turn out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  okay. I surely do appreciate all the help here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm sure they are some things in the $5 bottle that might help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  but I'm also sure it won't speed up the process. I have cycled with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pure ammonia 6 different tanks and none have them have taking over 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  weeks to cycle. There is a product called bio-spear that will cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  your tank over night. It's cost about $20 for enough for a 55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallon tank (where I live). I have never used it. I always figured
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  $1 for enough ammonia for 10 (or more) tanks was a better deal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The person at my LFS has cycled both ways and he tell me he fells
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  better with a fishless cycle than the bio-spear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: dawnmvo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > because it is not refrigerated, even after I open it. All the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stuff if dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of Service.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5408 From: welovesofttofu Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: comet goldfish help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yeah..i have my comet goldfish for like 3/ 1/2 yrs and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wonder ....when r they going to breed. I realy have no clue what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  their sexes r ..can anyone tell me. None of the golfish have those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tube for ...reproduction...can anyone help me on that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5409 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greetings again Sarah,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I did see the eroded shells in one photo, it seemed normal for the species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Apple snails are predated by many species in the wild, bass, gar, gators, herons not to mention many parasites,  most of them I've found are only the size of a golf ball at best but some get very large (baseball size).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think the limiting factor is just plain old luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So don't dispair , they will thrive and in a few months you'll have so many you will wonder why you worried.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  One more note here and I'm sure I'll hear that I'm wrong but here goes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They are herbivores, the cuttlefish chunks wouldn't be eaten . they would do better on frozen spinach IMHO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good luck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will take some photos of the damaged snails shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We are adding the Calcium and it seems to be working. I have also hidden a piece of Cuttlefish in the back of the tank to help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/22/04 20:20:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greetings Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry for your gastropodian loss<]:~(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did you ever figure out how the shell became eroded? I ask as Calcium deficiency might not be the answer, if the whole shell is brittle than I would side with that conclusion.  On the other hand being that it seemed like a hole worn into the shell I would think it might be a matter of abrasion possibly from repeatedly catching it's shell on a rock or some object that after a while would create a hole. Either way you didn't state whether the other apple snails had a holes . The operculum being damaged suggests that you have a predator ?? Could you list possible canidates such as some loaches or crayfish. If this information was already given than I will search the achives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  BTW, A simple patch from CA glue (medium viscosity) using a piece of old shell from one long gone and attached around the edges as not to come in contact with the mantle would work nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah most of them wouldn't have had the damage they have from catching themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one we had with the hole in its operculum has died :(:(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/22/04 16:21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5410 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Endler's Livebearers and Egg Layers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim, all the online sources I have found state that although Endler's are related to Guppies (they are both in the Poecilia genus, as are both Mexican Mollies and Sailfin Mollies) they have been determined to be a completely different species. Do you have a more definitive up-to-date source for this claim that they are just guppies? (If it is an online source, please send a link, I am trying to amass as much info on my Endler's as possible!) You list Swordtails and Platies separately, and they are also the same genus, Xiphophorus. Guppies and Endler's can interbreed. Swordtails and Platies can also interbreed. So can horses and donkeys, but that does not make a donkey a horse. So I think Theresa has a valid point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You also didn't mention Limias in your livebearers group... but you did qualify your statement, that the ones you listed were the only "common" livebearers... Since Endler's are endangered in the wild, I would not say they are common. I see mosquitofish listed in catalogues for ponds, but I have only seen Limias (and Endler's) available on Aquabid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, your egglayers "basic" spawning description sure doesn't say much about some of the very interesting behaviors of some egglayers. Some embrace their mates prior to spawning. Some form nuclear families and care for their eggs and young until they are nearly grown. Some eat their eggs and their young.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank - planted with aponogetons, cabomba, riccia, and Java moss, with some invading duckweed I think - 5 Golden White Cloud Mountain Minnows, 7 Endler's Livebearers (3 pairs plus one juvenile), and one lonely female dwarf Gourami juvenile - and a few snails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Message: 18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:12:57 +0100
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: "Nimish Mathur" <nimmat4@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Theresa, Endler's is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for the reminder.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: 22 September 2004 16:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Don't forget Endler's and mosquito fish ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Nimish Mathur <mailto:nimmat4@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Only Platies, mollies, sword tails, guppies, Ameca splendens (Goodie), Half
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > beaks are the common livebearers. Rest other fish are egg layers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > All tetras, cichlids, barbs, rasboras, danios, catfish, loaches, etc.. a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > never ending list , are all egg layers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Message: 19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:27:47 +0100
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: "Nimish Mathur" <nimmat4@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yes, I think carbon removed tri and tetra valent metals and aromatic organic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > compounds and also organics with a tendency to form polymers (esters etc.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Beyond this it can only house beneficial bacteria due to its porous nature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: 22 September 2004 18:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I got this from a water quality web site about filters for drinking water, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > would think it would still apply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Carbon filters will not remove bacteria, calcium and magnesium (hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water), fluorides, nitrates, chlorides and many other inorganic chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From this site http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/ip/ip6s/ip6s.htm under "how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > activated carbon structure works"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Also in the first paragraph of this site.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.berber.com/water/activated_carbon_filters.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <file:///C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Terri%20Bryant\Application%20Data\Mic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > rosoft\Signatures\Terri2_files\image001.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://www.rainbowsnails.com/> Rainbow Snails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?disp&viewseller&rainbows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > nails> Rainbow Snails - Aquabid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=rainbows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > nails&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50> Rainbow Snails - Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 3:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > We have put some calcium in our tanks for the snails, question is will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > carbon remover Calcium?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Female Guppies, 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies, 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Message: 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > you can have a tank with 6 cories, 4 platty's and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > otto's with proper filtration and feeding, but your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > clean up crew, if being introduced to clean up uneaten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > food should not out number the regualr fish. we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not saying that schools of them are not counted, only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > when you are using them as cleaners, and not target
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > feeding them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- crickit99 <crickit99@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well, I will be the first to admit that I am a tad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > anal when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > comes to my pets, including my fish. I'm very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > a planner,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > although I have no patience! And if it has anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > to do w/ my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > tanks, fish, or future ideas, I make sure I know as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > much as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > possible. I am a snail bioload counter, haha, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > proud of it. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I would like to mention that fish, shrimp, etc. do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > not eat the waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of others. They eat food they find, algae, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > whatever else is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the tank that is in their diet. If someone can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > correct me, please do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Plants and bacteria do use that waste.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > And I am also seeing mention of 'clean up' fish not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > being fed food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > just leftovers. I don't feel that is a viable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > argument, since you do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > have to feed them in addition to the leftovers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > And if Ottos and Cories didn't contrinute to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bioload, why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > couldn't you just have a 10 gallon tank w/ 4 platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > and 6 cories and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 3 ottos? They don't contribute, right? I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > agree with that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > All fish are different. There is an arguement that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > if you feed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > goldfish and a gourami the same amount, the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > amount of waste is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > produced. Now, those 2 fish wouldn't eat the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > amount of food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > and they both process their food differently. A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > full grown Oscar's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bioload is a lot greater than the same total inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > in Neon Tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Even in the same species, fish have different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > metabolisms. Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > fish eat more than others, some digest more of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > food than others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I haven't read too much on this site, but it's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > good reading so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.biology-online.org/tutorials/6_freshwater_ecology.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Message: 21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:33:00 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > personally, i do not like cycle because it makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > claims that it can't back up. no matter how you cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a tank, it will not be ready in three days. there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > isno way for the bacteria to colonize the filters in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > because it is not refrigerated, even after I open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > it. All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > stuff if dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Message: 22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:44:59 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: "bryants4god" <bryants4god@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I confess my ignorance! Are you agreeing or disagreeing?? My Father is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > chemical engineer and you post sounds like something he would say lol.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yes, I think carbon removed tri and tetra valent metals and aromatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > organic compounds and also organics with a tendency to form polymers (esters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > etc.). Beyond this it can only house beneficial bacteria due to its porous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > nature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: 22 September 2004 18:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Carbon VS Calcium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I got this from a water quality web site about filters for drinking water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I would think it would still apply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > [This message contained attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Message: 23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:46:43 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in compaarison to what they have stopped from rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > would appreciate it if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5411 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Our Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yea I saw them, nice colors and nice assortment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They'll be fine ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just try and keep them from taking over the tank and I don't need to tell you not to toss them into the wild population, in this case it's more of a note to others as you seem very much in control of your aquatic garden.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did anyone look at our photos?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What did you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5412 From: arch1574 Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Endler's Livebearers and Egg Layers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <arch1574@b...> wrote: ten tons of stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am sorry about all the excess at the tail end of my reply to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim... I get the digest and sometimes I get bumoed off when writing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  replies, so in my hurry to post before it happened again, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  neglected to delete all the excess. :-( Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5413 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wow thinking about babies has me all excited but i dont think mine woudl ever breed i cant even figure out what sex any of them are.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon, It is very much possible that they spawned in the tank before going belly up and the eggs hatched later. It happens very frequently and has happened with me too. Dwarf neon rainbows were breeding like rabbits and I wanted to get rid of all of them.. so some one managed to come by and pick them up and all the young ones from the grow out tank as well. left that tank as it is with a few plecs to keep it cycles for the breeding angels to go in there and after 10 days or so it was swarming with dwarf neon young ones just entered into the free swimming stage. Snails in the tank kept them alive and feeding so they all grew and were yet again given away… this time before they matured.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5414 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  anyfish may scoop up fecal matter of other while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  looking for food, especially gold fish and bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  feedres. some shrimp do eat detritus, just like star
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish in a salt water aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I would like to mention that fish, shrimp, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > do not eat the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of others. They eat food they find, algae, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > whatever else is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the tank that is in their diet. If someone can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > correct me, please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I am hardly an expert, but I have SEEN my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ghost shrimp and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > even cories actually consuming the...erm...end
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > product of the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the aquarium. Bleah. Grossed my daughter out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > completley, but she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > loves them anyway. What they don't use, the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > seem to clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > well enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5415 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sure you'll be fine. When I do a fishless cycle I always get lazy and never end up checking for nitrites, I just keep checking and adding ammonia and then after a few days I check and add ammonia every other day and the last 2 tanks I did after skipping a day my ammonia was 0 so I then would check for nitrites and they were also zero and then I'd double the amount of ammonia I've been adding and re check the next day and it was gone both times.  Pretty easy system and a little off what the other people have done, but it's work the last 2 times for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then I add about 25% of the total fish I'm gonna add and wait a 2 weeks then add the next 25% and so on.  Seems like a winning plan for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good Luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Today is day three of adding ammonia to my new 25 gallon aquarium. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  After looking at about six different places for the ammonia, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  finally DID find the clear pure "Sea Mist" ammonia at WalMart.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  woman at the check out counter asked if it was a new product,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  because she'd never seen it before that day... and I was apparently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the third customer that checked out with it on that day.  Makes me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wonder if lots of people are learning to cycle new tanks! :~)  It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  makes me nervous to keep adding the ammonia w/out having my test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yet, but I'm just adding a capful each day, so surely I won't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  overdoing it!  I have my fingers crossed that all will turn out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  okay.  I surely do appreciate all the help here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm sure they are some things in the $5 bottle that might help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  but I'm also sure it won't speed up the process.  I have cycled with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pure ammonia 6 different tanks and none have them have taking over 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  weeks to cycle.  There is a product called bio-spear that will cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  your tank over night.  It's cost about $20 for enough for a 55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallon tank (where I live).  I have never used it.  I always figured
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  $1 for enough ammonia for 10 (or more) tanks was a better deal. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The person at my LFS has cycled both ways and he tell me he fells
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  better with a fishless cycle than the bio-spear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   From: dawnmvo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   because it is not refrigerated, even after I open it.  All the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   stuff if  dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >   Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >           
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5416 From: paul helms Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: thanks for the cycle info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i use stress zyme and i think patrick uses fritz zyme?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > everyone, I guess I will stop buying it then. So do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > any of you put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > anyting in your tanks, or just really keep up with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water changes? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > use waste control, but I don't know if it does a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > darn thing!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5417 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5418 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know the "true" answer here but I was told at my LFS that any coins could potentially be harmful to fish...so, take it for what it's worth...LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] putting money in aquariums...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  dimes or quarters into an aquarium.  Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium.  I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others.  Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5419 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Endler's Livebearers are guppies?  Don't tell the Endler's breeder about that.  The prices of their stock will go down! :)  There is a lot of controversy over the issue between those who say it is a color form and those who say it is a separate species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Theresa, Endler’s is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito fish. Thanks for the reminder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5420 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It would be a horrible idea.  You have no way of knowing where the coins have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dimes or quarters into an aquarium.  Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium.  I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others.  Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5421 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the replies. Of course IF the metals were okay, I'd have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course. Oh well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > It would be a horrible idea. You have no way of knowing where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the coins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5422 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 10/2/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Saturday October 2, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The next reminder for this event will be sent in 7 days, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5423 From: Steve Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Pennies, dimes, and quarters all contain copper. Given enough time, enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will leach into the water to be harmful to fish and plants. The more acidic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your water, the faster this will happen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It took me a while to find, but I knew the nickel was made from an alloy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and not pure nickel. Turns out it is 25% copper.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you wish to see the composition of US coins, along with other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      information, check out the table found at the US Mint site;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://tinyurl.com/mavo.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (Just in case any one is wondering why tinyurl.com appears rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      usmint.gov, I use TinyURL to shorten long URLs so that they don't wrap and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cause people to have to copy and paste a URL, all they need to do is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      click. You can go to www.tinyurl.com to create, or if you use one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mozilla browsers--Mozilla or FireFox, you can add it as an extension.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] putting money in aquariums...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb






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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5424 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One of the first things I remember reading (Axelrods' Atlas on Tropical Fish/Aquariums, was, place NO METAL in the tank. I never had a problem with that, and personally have no interest in unnatural decorations. The fish and trying to duplicate a natural environment for them does'nt include risks with metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5425 From: Steve Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just to throw my two cents in here (and not in the aquarium), so far as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know, the endler's has not yet been officially described. Nor has any real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      relationship been established between endler's livebearer and the guppy. At
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the very least, they are a geographically separated race of the guppy, at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      most, they are a separate species. Using a scientific search engine, I found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      very few references to endler's, the most recent dated mid 2003.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] RE: egglayers


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Endler's Livebearers are guppies? Don't tell the Endler's breeder about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that. The prices of their stock will go down! :) There is a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      controversy over the issue between those who say it is a color form and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      those who say it is a separate species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa, Endler's is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the reminder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5426 From: Steve Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bigger Bowl for Thai
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Lorelei,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd not use sand in a 55 as a substrate. Consider using #2 gravel. Look up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the series of posts I've bee doing titled Starting with Aquariums for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      further information. I posted Part VI on Sunday. The first three, now that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looked them up are Starting Right with Aquariums. Part V is a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      discussion on substrates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Lorelei Cosner [mailto:loreleicosner@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Bigger Bowl for Thai



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I took Thai (my betta) to work and put his little tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      on my desk. A co-worker fell in love with the tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      her betta is in a one gallon tank, and I offered to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      switch with her (Thai's tank is only about 1/2 gal.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We will probably be cleaning their tanks on Friday,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and that is when we plan to make the switch. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hardly wait. I know Thai will be pleasantly pleased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that he's moved from a cup to a 1/2 gal. tank, to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      still larger 1 gal. tank. I know it's not perfectly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ideal, but it's twice the size of what he's in now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and it's probably the biggest tank he'll have been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      his whole life. I feel sorry for my co-worker's fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but she was so determined to go out and buy one. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      jumped at the chance to put Thai in a bigger tank. : )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've been too busy to wash out that 55 gal. yet, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not ready to rush out and buy fish for it yet,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anyway. I'll probably do that this weekend (wash it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      out, that is). I've decided to get some fine rocks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cover the bottom with, and plant some plants in. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      was wondering if tiny aquarium gravel or sand was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      better... or maybe just leave them in pots (except for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the floating plants).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Lorelei


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5427 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I agree about 'cycle' it's pretty well useless, but your other statement about cycling time no, if you go the right way about it using material from an existing tank you can cycle a new tank pretty well over night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      personally, i do not like cycle because it makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      claims that it can't back up.  no matter how you cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a tank, it will not be ready in three days.  there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      isno way for the bacteria to colonize the filters in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > because it is not refrigerated, even after I open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it.  All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > stuff if  dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5428 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well for what it's worth, We went to the gem & mineral show, I bought a piece of malachite and azurite. I thought it would look great in the tank with the beautiful greens and all. I tore down the tank some 4 months later and found a dime in the substrate, it was copperplated. I finally put the evidence together and found out why, malachite is high in copper, the dime was a conductor and the trickle charge I was getting from "?" ended up plating the dime. If not for the dime the copper being released into the tank would have poisoned the fish but with that minor electrical charge it conducted the copper to the dime, thus the plating. Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dimes or quarters into an aquarium.  Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium.  I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others.  Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5429 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       The atlantic shrimp we all enjoy so much eat detritus as their main diet. Thus why we find many in salt marshes. More proof!! that is why we de-vein shrimp. BA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anyfish may scoop up fecal matter of other while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looking for food, especially gold fish and bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      feedres.  some shrimp do eat detritus, just like star
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish in a salt water aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  I would like to mention that fish, shrimp, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > do not eat the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of others.  They eat food they find, algae, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > whatever else is in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the tank that is in their diet.  If someone can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct me, please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am hardly an expert, but I have SEEN my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ghost shrimp and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > even cories actually consuming the...erm...end
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > product of the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the aquarium.  Bleah.  Grossed my daughter out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > completley, but she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > loves them anyway.  What they don't use, the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > seem to clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > well enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5430 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      U.S. Mint, they love to talk coins, as far as I remember they (dimes) are a sandwiched coin, made up of three types of metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it's worth, 10 cents. BA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It would be a horrible idea.  You have no way of knowing where the coins have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies, nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dimes or quarters into an aquarium.  Definitely wouldn't risk it if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium.  I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others.  Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5431 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think maybe you have forgotten what you posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your words were :- " generally I don't count anything does more cleaning than producing as part of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your exact words ! every species you quoted there is indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead, this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If that is not what you meant I would suggest you proof read your posts before sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions correct ' or words to that affect it would have been a different matter. We must remember that these posts are read by people just starting with no knowledge of the hobby and because they are reading on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My reply was factual and correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can't have more ammonia from the same amount of food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i will grant that there may be additional ammonia form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the urine of the fish, but this amount will be minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in compaarison to what they have stopped from rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > whatever that does not produce ammonia, discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > would appreciate it if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that they are cleaning up what was left behind, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > than producing, as part of the bio load either. ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus, are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > let me tell you....they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > produce a LOT of waste. I was shocked when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > at the water after 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > day (only a few baby snails then).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Yes, there is a difference between rotting food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > fish waste... But having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Cories/Ottos has an effect of the bioload, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > snails can often have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > bigger impact than some fish. And there is more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > what a tank can handle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > like oxygen and territory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > And I don't mean this in a negative way at all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I just want to add that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it is important for people to realize that a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > replies and input are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > personal experience. Just because something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > for one person, doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > mean it will for another. And I often read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that I know is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > correct...so just remember to do as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > research
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Even my local fish store gives me incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > information sometimes. It's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > on purpose, they just are going on what they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > heard. (For instance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > they think dwarf puffers are brackish when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > actually freshwater.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5432 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey I got an idea, use gold, it doesn't erode. of course if you add piranha you'll have a bank. Just a thought, Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the replies.  Of course IF the metals were okay, I'd have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course.  Oh well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >     It would be a horrible idea.  You have no way of knowing where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the coins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dimes or quarters into an aquarium.  Definitely wouldn't risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others.  Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5433 From: Kristen Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I posted a few days ago about a new fish tank. Well, I lost all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      three fish. I dont know if I'm supposed to add more fish to get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank to cycle or not. Please help!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Kristen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5434 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ha! Fat chance that I'd have any gold laying around to throw in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank! Maybe some plastic kid's toy money! No, seriously, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      totally forgetting about my little "river of dimes". I agree about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a natural look being BEST. I really hate artificial stuff, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thought the silver might look good w/ the fish I've chosen...Diamond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tetras and Black Phantom tetras. Special thanks to Steve for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      his research. I appreciate all the input from everyone...even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      though it kinda leaves me with my head down and "tail between my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      legs". (Sorry...I'm a dog person!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hey I got an idea, use gold, it doesn't erode. of course if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > piranha you'll have a bank. Just a thought, Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks for the replies. Of course IF the metals were okay, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course. Oh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > It would be a horrible idea. You have no way of knowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the coins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5435 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Scott,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not sure I know the answer to this, It could be that your filter being a domestic filter is converting something into phosphate, phosphate being deemed less harmful for humans but I don't now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would seriously consider buying an RO/DI filter unit and not using your filter for your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  RO/DI units are not overly expensive take a look at this site there stuff is excellent, they will deliver worldwide and you will have a job to beet there prices for the same excellent quality, many aquarists use there filters, they also sell on e-bay auctions I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                aquasafecanada.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   If you go this route all your water problems will be over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Salmarcus@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But I did replace the canister and still received the high phosphate reading. That is why I am so puzzled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Scott


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5436 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now you have me wondering how gold is plated? Is gold aquarium-safe?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey I got an idea, use gold, it doesn't erode. of course if you add piranha you'll have a bank. Just a thought, Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the replies. Of course IF the metals were okay, I'd have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course. Oh well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > It would be a horrible idea. You have no way of knowing where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the coins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb













                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5437 From: Chris Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OH WELL! It sounds like a neet idea to have coins in your tank. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      would give a whole new meaning to throwing all your money into your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquarium. But as enthusiasts, we have to consider the fish first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ha! Fat chance that I'd have any gold laying around to throw in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank! Maybe some plastic kid's toy money! No, seriously, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > totally forgetting about my little "river of dimes". I agree about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a natural look being BEST. I really hate artificial stuff, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thought the silver might look good w/ the fish I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      chosen...Diamond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tetras and Black Phantom tetras. Special thanks to Steve for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > his research. I appreciate all the input from everyone...even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > though it kinda leaves me with my head down and "tail between my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > legs". (Sorry...I'm a dog person!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hey I got an idea, use gold, it doesn't erode. of course if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > piranha you'll have a bank. Just a thought, Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Thanks for the replies. Of course IF the metals were okay, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course. Oh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > It would be a horrible idea. You have no way of knowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the coins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > dimes or quarters into an aquarium. Definitely wouldn't risk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others. Does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5438 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Big thanks...OT HELP wanted...im doing my masters thesis on aquari.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have had a lot of responses of help and I cant possibly thanks everyone  personally without annoying others so I jsut wanted to make one big thank you. I really appreciate all the help and ideas, and sources.  I have lots of work to do atleast 10 more months to go so anything you think of or come across would still be grateful to receive.  I am on the reserach side of the topic needing journals articles abstracts case studies.. stuff like that.. I have units and books gallore i went crazy on amazon and the library.. to answer a lot of your hints i do have eric search engines that is my last stop for I needed to see what was out there in hardback before I even attempted to search through the millions of journals... once again a huge thanks your support was overwhelming and if you think of anythign else feel free to drop me a line.. questions included.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5439 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you really want to make it happen, you could always use a two part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      acrylic resin. Mix it up, dip the coins, slap them on some foil and cure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in the oven for an hour or so. (Been a while since I've used the stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but its not hard to find or use.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I kind of dig the idea... you could even have a few pieces of paper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      done up to put in! ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Justin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5440 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i've had surgical steel on those syringes in my tanks for years with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ill effects.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Sep 22, 2004, at 5:12 PM, Mark J. Bethke wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hey I got an idea, use gold, it doesn't erode. of course if you add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > piranha you'll have a bank. Just a thought, Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks for the replies.  Of course IF the metals were okay, I'd have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course.  Oh well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >     It would be a horrible idea.  You have no way of knowing where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the coins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have been, and they are made of metals that aren't good for fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I'm not talking "investment" here...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I was just wondering how toxic it would be to put pennies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > nickels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > dimes or quarters into an aquarium.  Definitely wouldn't risk it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ANY chance of danger to the fish, but it would be a neat look to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have a little "river" of dimes or something in an aquarium.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > copper is a "no-no", but not sure about the others.  Does anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have any info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5441 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: money in tanks/ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Combining a couple recent posts here...I've never heard of anyone using coins as a decoration in tanks, but read this quite some time ago: 'To get rid of ich without spending a penny, raise the temperature slowly a few degrees and place one brand new, shiny penny that has no residue or tarnish whatsoever on it for each 5 gallons of fish tank volume. The copper on the coating (post 1973 in the USA) kills the ich.'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I ended up reading this info in a number of places, many people claiming to have used the pennies successfully to get rid of ich. Fortunately I've only had ich in my tanks a couple times but after the combination treatment of water changes/temp raising/meds failed I tried the pennies. I found it to be a faster way to get rid of ich and with the pennies I never lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Partly coincidence, partly fact, partly luck? Who knows ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5442 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well if they have a Different scientific name then guppies then they are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      guppies. I just happen to find them as poecilia reticulate - var endler's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If it does have a specific classification as an independent species then..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      links please. It is very much possible that diverse populations of the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      species be a different colour and size and especially with guppies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Steve [mailto:steve@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 23 September 2004 02:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] RE: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Just to throw my two cents in here (and not in the aquarium), so far as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >know, the endler's has not yet been officially described. Nor has any real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >relationship been established between endler's livebearer and the guppy. At
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the very least, they are a geographically separated race of the guppy, at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >most, they are a separate species. Using a scientific search engine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >very few references to endler's, the most recent dated mid 2003.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >\\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] RE: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Endler's Livebearers are guppies? Don't tell the Endler's breeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >that. The prices of their stock will go down! :) There is a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >controversy over the issue between those who say it is a color form and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >those who say it is a separate species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Theresa, Endler's is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Thanks for the reminder.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Nim
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5443 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The main reason we put the cuttlefish in there was so it added to the Calcium. A few have sat on it but don't know if they eat it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/22/04 23:53:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Greetings again Sarah,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       I did see the eroded shells in one photo, it seemed normal for the species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Apple snails are predated by many species in the wild, bass, gar, gators, herons not to mention many parasites,  most of them I've found are only the size of a golf ball at best but some get very large (baseball size).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the limiting factor is just plain old luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So don't dispair , they will thrive and in a few months you'll have so many you will wonder why you worried.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One more note here and I'm sure I'll hear that I'm wrong but here goes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They are herbivores, the cuttlefish chunks wouldn't be eaten . they would do better on frozen spinach IMHO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Good luck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will take some photos of the damaged snails shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We are adding the Calcium and it seems to be working. I have also hidden a piece of Cuttlefish in the back of the tank to help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/22/04 20:20:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Greetings Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry for your gastropodian loss<]:~(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Did you ever figure out how the shell became eroded? I ask as Calcium deficiency might not be the answer, if the whole shell is brittle than I would side with that conclusion.  On the other hand being that it seemed like a hole worn into the shell I would think it might be a matter of abrasion possibly from repeatedly catching it's shell on a rock or some object that after a while would create a hole. Either way you didn't state whether the other apple snails had a holes . The operculum being damaged suggests that you have a predator ?? Could you list possible canidates such as some loaches or crayfish. If this information was already given than I will search the achives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW, A simple patch from CA glue (medium viscosity) using a piece of old shell from one long gone and attached around the edges as not to come in contact with the mantle would work nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah most of them wouldn't have had the damage they have from catching themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The one we had with the hole in its operculum has died :(:(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/22/04 16:21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5444 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Our Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No the Clowns aren't in with the snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/22/04 22:48:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Our Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I looked at them.  Your tank is awesome, I have never seen one curved like that before!  Is the clown loach actually in the tank with your snails?  They don't go well together.  You might want to check this out.  http://www.applesnail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3105&highlight=clown+loach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Our Photos!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Did anyone look at our photos?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What did you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5445 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Endler's/egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Prof. John A. Endler collected Poecilia sp. now, 'Endler's Livebearer' in 1975 in Laguna de Patos, Cumana, in northeastern Venezuela. He found these fish in warm (81° F) , hard water which is very green with unicellular algae which, along with other plankton such as diatoms, nekton, and filamentous algae make up part of their food. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Endler gave a stock of Poecilia sp. 'Endler's' to Dr. Donn Eric Rosen, the then Curator of Ichthyology at the American Museum of Natural History, who was going to name it (but died a few years later). Dr. Rosen gave some of the stock to a mutual friend of Dr. Endler, Dr. Klaus Kallman, then of the New York Aquarium, and a famous fish geneticist. Dr. Kallman introduced it to the German aquarium community. Many of the European group are hybrids of Endler's mixed with guppies of various breeds. Dr. Endler noted the extreme variety of colors in the wild were eliminated by the time they reached the aquist's community. He also commented that my original pictures reflected this inbred characteristic of many kept groups of fish, homozygousity, that is, they breed true to one color pattern, or phenotype.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Kallman didn't tell Dr. Endler at the time, but he referred to the fish as 'Endler's Livebearer'. The name stuck.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From the German aquarists it spread throughout Europe and Dr. Endler didn't hear about it until about 1980 when an English colleague asked him about the 'Endler's Livebearer'. From Europe it spread to America, Japan and elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Endler says that the 'Endler's Livebearer' is it's own species, not a guppy (Poecilia reticulata), because, while it could be breed with the guppy (many livebearers will interbreed) but would only produce F1 hybrids. This separate speciation is appropriate. However, they will indeed breed with guppies and produce hybrids so they should be kept separate unless this is desired. In Europe there are a number of mixed lines of fish."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Phylum: Chordata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sub-phylum: Vertebrata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Super-Class: Gnathostomata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Class: Osteichthyes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subclass: Actinopterygii
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Superorder: Acanthopterygii
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Order: Cyprinodontoidei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Suborder: Antheriniformes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Family:  Poeciliidae (Livebearers)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Genus: Poecilia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Species: (not yet named)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3x 2g-one female and two male bettas


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa, Endler’s is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito fish. Thanks for the reminder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't forget Endler's and mosquito fish ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5446 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Our Photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I cant find anyones photos i ever want to find there are so many folders and with names that dont seem to correspond to ppl that own them.. but such is im guessing with such a large group.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5447 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if you have a costco memebership, they sell a 5 stage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ro/di unit for less than 150.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Scott,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not sure I know the answer to this,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > It could be that your filter being a domestic filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is converting something into phosphate, phosphate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > being deemed less harmful for humans but I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I would seriously consider buying an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > RO/DI filter unit and not using your filter for your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > RO/DI units are not overly expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > take a look at this site there stuff is excellent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they will deliver worldwide and you will have a job
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to beet there prices for the same excellent quality,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > many aquarists use there filters, they also sell on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > e-bay auctions I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aquasafecanada.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you go this route all your water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > problems will be over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Salmarcus@... wrote:Thanks Norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > But I did replace the canister and still received
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the high phosphate reading. That is why I am so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > puzzled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5448 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you are at a 50/50 with this group. i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      never do a cycle with fish, others do. i would do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      small water change and let the bacteria grow and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      its job. it generally takes 4-6 weeks to have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank stable and ready to begin slowly stocking withe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the fish you wish to keep, from the start date that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Kristen <kris21flan21@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I posted a few days ago about a new fish tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, I lost all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > three fish. I dont know if I'm supposed to add more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish to get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank to cycle or not. Please help!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Kristen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5449 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anything does more cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct ' or words to that affect it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > knowledge of the hobby and because they are reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > would appreciate it if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > than producing, as part of the bio load either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5450 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      whatever norm. as you stated in your previous post,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      many new hobbyists are setting up their 1st tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      most likely don't have another tank to draw from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      besides, that is not really setting up a new tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      splintering off another one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I agree about 'cycle' it's pretty well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > useless, but your other statement about cycling time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > no, if you go the right way about it using material
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > from an existing tank you can cycle a new tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pretty well over night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:personally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > do not like cycle because it makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > claims that it can't back up. no matter how you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a tank, it will not be ready in three days. there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > isno way for the bacteria to colonize the filters in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > because it is not refrigerated, even after I open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it. All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > stuff if dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5451 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: newly planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hey guys. i need some advice on my planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      first of all, i have a 30 gallon tall tank (24" tall)running on an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      eclipse. I have 2 18" 15 watt lights (stock). I have a brackish tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with sp. gravity at 1.003. I have researched that serveral plants do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well in brackish. These are the plants that I have and researched:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wisteria (hygrophilia difformis), hygrophilia polysperma, bacopa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      carolinia, corkscrew val (vallisneria americana), water sprite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (cerotopteris thalictroides), indian fern (cerotopteris cornuta),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and java fern (microserium pteropus). please, give me your feedback.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do you guys think they'll do well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5452 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How about a 'river' of those glass pente beads, rather than money?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Or maybe some marbles. The glass is nonreactive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >IF the metals were okay, I'd have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > boiled them to sterilize them first...but I'll chunk the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > immediately if there is danger to the fish, of course. Oh well...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Guess I'm just trying to get creative rather than get impatient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waiting for the tank to cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5453 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 411
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am thinking of using the smaller gravel. I'm also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      collecting aquariums. I'm part of a group called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Freecycle and I posted a 'wanted' requesting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquariums. A lady wrote back to me yesterday, and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has 2 five gallon aquariums she doesn't need. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      going to put our tarantula in one, and probably start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a planted tank in the other one. The web address is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      www.freecycle.org. You find your location, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      directs you to a Yahoo group. Here's a tip: read all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the info on the group rules that you can. It makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      posting soooo much easier.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll check out your posts on setting up aquariums,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve. Thank you so much for the info.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      *********************************************

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Lorelei,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd not use sand in a 55 as a substrate. Consider
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      using #2 gravel. Look up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the series of posts I've bee doing titled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Starting with Aquariums for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      further information. I posted Part VI on Sunday.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The first three, now that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looked them up are Starting Right with Aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Part V is a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      discussion on substrates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5454 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 411
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ah another Freecycler! Hello! It's nice to meet you! I live in Arkansas and have just recently found out about and joined Freecycle. I've already helped several ppl find stuff they need (and cleared it out of my house!) and I have one person that is checking to see if he still has a filter and an air pump that I can have. I would love to find a larger aquarium (29 gal was listed and taken 3 days before I joined)....Anyway, on a whole other topic....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My betta passed last night... :-(  I found him dead early this morning...I am going to wait to get another til i can get a half moon, butterfly or Delta...I will NOT purchase another walmart betta....well, gotta go! have fun all............
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 6:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 411

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am thinking of using the smaller gravel.  I'm also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      collecting aquariums.  I'm part of a group called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Freecycle and I posted a 'wanted' requesting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquariums.  A lady wrote back to me yesterday, and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has 2 five gallon aquariums she doesn't need.  I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      going to put our tarantula in one, and probably start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a planted tank in the other one.  The web address is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      www.freecycle.org.  You find your location, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      directs you to a Yahoo group.  Here's a tip:  read all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the info on the group rules that you can.  It makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      posting soooo much easier.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll check out your posts on setting up aquariums,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve.  Thank you so much for the info.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      *********************************************

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Lorelei,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd not use sand in a 55 as a substrate. Consider
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      using #2 gravel. Look up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the series of posts I've bee doing titled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Starting with Aquariums for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      further information. I posted Part VI on Sunday.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The first three, now that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looked them up are Starting Right with Aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Part V is a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      discussion on substrates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5455 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You're waffling again, I did not and am not in a position to criticise your fish or fish tanks so I fail to see the point of that deviation from the subject or your reference to the diet of starfish which I don't dispute, I keep FOWLR and reef tanks as well as many fresh water tanks my self. The original subject was what constitutes the bio load so stick to it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               If you won't admit to your error in print then admit it to your self and lets bring an end to these pointless posts, by the way look up the definition of chastise!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anything does more cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct ' or words to that affect it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > knowledge of the hobby and because they are reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > would appreciate it if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > than producing, as part of the bio load either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > opinion, I may be wrong, but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5456 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Endler's/egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Very informative and tru. But sure there must be a reason why the species has not been given any name yet since 1975? Classification of a species cannot be that difficult that it has taken scientists 30 years to still decide on a name despite the fact that the discoverer is known. Maybe the professional endler breeders or emotionally attached endler keepers don’t like the idea that it is guppy and hence detach it’s name from it but my personal opinion about them is that they are a strain of guppies till they are not classified as a species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ps: apologies to anyone if I have hurt their deep feelings for this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 23 September 2004 07:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Endler's/egglayers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Prof. John A. Endler collected Poecilia sp. now, 'Endler's Livebearer' in 1975 in Laguna de Patos, Cumana , in northeastern Venezuela . He found these fish in warm (81° F) , hard water which is very green with unicellular algae which, along with other plankton such as diatoms, nekton, and filamentous algae make up part of their food. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Endler gave a stock of Poecilia sp. 'Endler's' to Dr. Donn Eric Rosen, the then Curator of Ichthyology at the American Museum of Natural History, who was going to name it (but died a few years later). Dr. Rosen gave some of the stock to a mutual friend of Dr. Endler, Dr. Klaus Kallman, then of the New York Aquarium, and a famous fish geneticist. Dr. Kallman introduced it to the German aquarium community. Many of the European group are hybrids of Endler's mixed with guppies of various breeds. Dr. Endler noted the extreme variety of colors in the wild were eliminated by the time they reached the aquist's community. He also commented that my original pictures reflected this inbred characteristic of many kept groups of fish, homozygousity, that is, they breed true to one color pattern, or phenotype.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Kallman d idn 't tell Dr. Endler at the time, but he referred to the fish as 'Endler's Livebearer'. The name stuck.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From the German aquarists it spread throughout Europe and Dr. Endler d idn 't hear about it until about 1980 when an English colleague asked him about the 'Endler's Livebearer'. From Europe it spread to America , Japan and elsewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Endler says that the 'Endler's Livebearer' is it's own species, not a guppy (Poecilia reticulata), because, while it could be breed with the guppy (many livebearers will interbreed) but would only produce F1 hybrids. This separate speciation is appropriate. However, they will indeed breed with guppies and produce hybrids so they should be kept separate unless this is desired. In Europe there are a number of mixed lines of fish."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Phylum: Chordata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sub-phylum: Vertebrata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Super-Class: Gnathostomata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Class: Osteichthyes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subclass: Actinopterygii
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Superorder: Acanthopterygii
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Order: Cyprinodontoidei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Suborder: Antheriniformes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Family:  Poeciliidae (Livebearers)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Genus: Poecilia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Species: (not yet named)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3x 2g-one female and two male bettas


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa, Endler’s is a guppy. Yes I did forget about gumbusia/mosquito fish. Thanks for the reminder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't forget Endler's and mosquito fish ;)



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5457 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You're trying to wriggle out of an incorrect statement again ! drop it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   unclenorm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      whatever norm.  as you stated in your previous post,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      many new hobbyists are setting up their 1st tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      most likely don't have another tank to draw from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      besides, that is not really setting up a new tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      splintering off another one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >              I agree about 'cycle' it's pretty well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > useless, but your other statement about cycling time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > no, if you go the right way about it using material
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > from an existing tank you can cycle a new tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pretty well over night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >                       unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:personally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > do not like cycle because it makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > claims that it can't back up.  no matter how you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a tank, it will not be ready in three days.  there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > isno way for the bacteria to colonize the filters in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > because it is not refrigerated, even after I open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it.  All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > stuff if  dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5458 From: Aranel Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, once again I'd like to think everyone for the responses I got about the gold gourami I 'rescued'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I cleaned out my twenty-nine gallon really well and rearranged the decorations so that if need be, there would be plenty of room for the smaller mollies to hide. Then I added the gold gourami. The black mollies came to investigate him as soon as he was in the water and (to my surprise) he let them. Three days later there have been no problems whatsoever. He's eating great, his color is coming back, he and hangs out near the top of the aquarium, and near this large river rock I have in the corner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought he might bother my female balloon mollie because she's not as fast as the others, but she hangs out near him most all day and he pays her no mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My betta is in a ten gallon with the mollie babies and is also doing just great.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This brings me to my first question, would adding some platies be alright? My sister has been wanting some, and I don't feel like putting up another aquarium for them. I was thinking maybe one male and two or three females. Of course, I don't want anything that the gourami would bother. I also wanted some guppies, but I'm not sure how they would do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Any advice?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (In case you can't tell I really love livebearers. Heh.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5459 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don’t consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too aggressive. Though they will be fine with a gourami and molly and 1 male should be fine as it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Aranel [mailto:aranel@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 23 September 2004 14:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFish Group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, once again I'd like to think everyone for the responses I got about the gold gourami I 'rescued'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I cleaned out my twenty-nine gallon really well and rearranged the decorations so that if need be, there would be plenty of room for the smaller mollies to hide. Then I added the gold gourami. The black mollies came to investigate him as soon as he was in the water and (to my surprise) he let them. Three days later there have been no problems whatsoever. He's eating great, his color is coming back, he and hangs out near the top of the aquarium, and near this large river rock I have in the corner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought he might bother my female balloon mollie because she's not as fast as the others, but she hangs out near him most all day and he pays her no mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My betta is in a ten gallon with the mollie babies and is also doing just great.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This brings me to my first question, would adding some platies be alright? My sister has been wanting some, and I don't feel like putting up another aquarium for them. I was thinking maybe one male and two or three females. Of course, I don't want anything that the gourami would bother. I also wanted some guppies, but I'm not sure how they would do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Any advice?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (In case you can't tell I really love livebearers. Heh.)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5460 From: Carolyn Nagle Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have inquired about a tank that is 110 gal and was told the dimensions were 4 ft X 4 ft X 18inches.  I used to have a 110 and I thought it was a lot longer and not as tall.  Is this a "standard" size?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carolyn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5461 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, here's my 2 cents... :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I use the "New & Improved" Cycle in my tanks. The older version of the product was supposedly not very good. And I have heard different things about the NIC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Personally, I have seen great results with it. It's worked for me very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One important thing to note is that there must be ammonia in the tank for a product like Cycle to work. If not, the bacteria doesn't have anything to feed on, and it will be useless.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cycle does NOT have to be refrigerated. The product has been made so that it is 'activated' when added to the aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a product called Bio-Spira that is refrigerated. From what I have head, it can be difficult to get, but it is supposedly the best product.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5462 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: pennies/ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The reason certain year pennies work, is due to the copper. Copper is, of course, bad for inverts and plants...and it is also one of the best treatments for several fish ailments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The reason you raise the temperature in the tank for ich is because it speeds up the life cycle. Since it can only be killed at a few intervals during that cycle (falling off the host or going to one), the treatment has to be in the tank for a while (about 10-14 days). Ich cannot really be 'cured' in 24 hours with one treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are varying opinions on ich (and others) treatments. Some things work for some people, and they don't for others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are some great websites about ich and its life cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5463 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: money in tanks/ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Verrrry interesting!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd love to hear if anyone else has tried this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope I never have to face Ich, but with the law of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      averages...well...I know it will more than likely occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      eventually.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Combining a couple recent posts here...I've never heard of anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      using coins as a decoration in tanks, but read this quite some time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ago: 'To get rid of ich without spending a penny, raise the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      temperature slowly a few degrees and place one brand new, shiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      penny that has no residue or tarnish whatsoever on it for each 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gallons of fish tank volume. The copper on the coating (post 1973 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the USA) kills the ich.'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I ended up reading this info in a number of places, many people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      claiming to have used the pennies successfully to get rid of ich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Fortunately I've only had ich in my tanks a couple times but after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the combination treatment of water changes/temp raising/meds failed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I tried the pennies. I found it to be a faster way to get rid of ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and with the pennies I never lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Partly coincidence, partly fact, partly luck? Who knows ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5464 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Tank size

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carolyn,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A 4ftx4ftx1.5ft tank should be 170 US Gallons and not 110. Can you confirm the dimensions again from the person you are enquiring from? I have a 4ft tank that is 105 US gallons and is 4ftx2.5ftx1.5ft (1.5ft tall)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Carolyn Nagle [mailto:karlyn@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 23 September 2004 11:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank size

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have inquired about a tank that is 110 gal and was told the dimensions were 4 ft X 4 ft X 18inches.  I used to have a 110 and I thought it was a lot longer and not as tall.  Is this a "standard" size?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carolyn



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5465 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Oh, Justin...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just LOVE it when people put their "thinking caps" on and come up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with new ideas and solutions to difficult situations. I've always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      been a "Where there's a will, there's a way" person. Sounds like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you are, too! If anyone wants to try this, let us know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      results!!! Guess you'd do tests on the water before adding any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fishies...!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Why?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <justin4fun24@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you really want to make it happen, you could always use a two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > acrylic resin. Mix it up, dip the coins, slap them on some foil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and cure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in the oven for an hour or so. (Been a while since I've used the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but its not hard to find or use.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I kind of dig the idea... you could even have a few pieces of paper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > done up to put in! ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5466 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: bioloads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, maybe I should mention I would love to hear things that eat fish waste in a freshwater tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      None of my fish eat waste, unless they only try and spit it out when I'm there... haha

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe Patrick agreed that plants are great helping w/ the fish waste... I mentioned in another email, but I have seen drastic changes in my tanks since planting them. It actually decreased some maintanence...but now I have jungles of plants to deal with!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5467 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: money in tanks/ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barbara,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Increasing the temperature to 84F or 30C does cure ick unless the fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      very heavily stressed for some reasons (poisoning, temperature fluctuations,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      starvation). I also have no reason to believe why the penny system wont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      work... but I also have no reason to believe it will when just raising the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      temperature works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In over a decade of fish keeping, I have had ick only twice in my tanks: My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      first tank that was doing a fish cycle and this year in summers when there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      was a sudden temperature fluctuation when I had to do an emergency water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      topup due to a canister hose snapping off and leaving 1/10th the water in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 23 September 2004 15:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: money in tanks/ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Verrrry interesting!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >I'd love to hear if anyone else has tried this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >I hope I never have to face Ich, but with the law of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >averages...well...I know it will more than likely occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >eventually.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Combining a couple recent posts here...I've never heard of anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >using coins as a decoration in tanks, but read this quite some time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >ago: 'To get rid of ich without spending a penny, raise the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >temperature slowly a few degrees and place one brand new, shiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >penny that has no residue or tarnish whatsoever on it for each 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >gallons of fish tank volume. The copper on the coating (post 1973 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the USA) kills the ich.'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I ended up reading this info in a number of places, many people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >claiming to have used the pennies successfully to get rid of ich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Fortunately I've only had ich in my tanks a couple times but after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the combination treatment of water changes/temp raising/meds failed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >I tried the pennies. I found it to be a faster way to get rid of ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >and with the pennies I never lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Partly coincidence, partly fact, partly luck? Who knows ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5468 From: Kristen Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ok...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am just wondering if there is enough ammonia in my tank currently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from the fish that I lost, or if I will need to add ammonia or what.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I dont wanna harm any more fish...its not fair to them. I just wanna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      make the tank a safe place for new fish. The fish only survived in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the tank for a week, so I dont know if that was enough time to start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the cycle. I'm SO confused!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Kristen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5469 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5470 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        IMO get a couple of hardy fish as the cycle process must have started in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weeks time. If you leave it without fish at this stage, the cycle will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        complete and terminate due to no available food for the bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There is another thing what you can do:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instead of adding fish, start adding fishfood to the filter intake. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        food when in the filter will start rotting over and produce ammonia for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria to complete the cycle. This is one type of a fishless cycle that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        prefer second only to seeding an existing filter with bacteria from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        matured tank. If you use this procedure, keep testing the water for both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ammonia and nitrites and when nitrites start to come down, it is safe to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ps: stuff like cycle and stresszyme will help in using the second method.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: Kristen [mailto:kris21flan21@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 23 September 2004 15:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Ok...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I am just wondering if there is enough ammonia in my tank currently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >from the fish that I lost, or if I will need to add ammonia or what.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I dont wanna harm any more fish...its not fair to them. I just wanna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >make the tank a safe place for new fish. The fish only survived in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >the tank for a week, so I dont know if that was enough time to start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >the cycle. I'm SO confused!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Kristen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5471 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Carolyn, A tank such as the size you mentioned (4' x 4' x 18") would hold about 175 gallons. There is a standard size tank (by All-Glass Aquarium) that is 4'L x 2 1/2'H x 18"W (actually - 48"L x 18"W x 30"H) that holds 110 gallons. Other similar length tanks are; 48"L x 18"W x 25"H (90 gal.), or roughly 4'L x 2'H x 18"W Perhaps this is what you mean. And then there is 48"L x 24"W x 25"H (120 gal.). I believe there is (or was) a tank produced by Perfecto (?) that is 60"L x 18"W x 24"H (5' x 1 1/2' x 2'), if this tank is still made, probably the one you are thinking of that you recall as being longer. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5472 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Platies were the first fish I bought for my 29g after it cycled. They are one of my favorites...peaceful, good color, active. Your ratio of 1M/2 or 3F is good. Mine have lived with a three-spot gourami, dwarf gouramis, and now a pair of paradisefish with no problems between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, once again I'd like to think everyone for the responses I got about the gold gourami I 'rescued'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I cleaned out my twenty-nine gallon really well and rearranged the decorations so that if need be, there would be plenty of room for the smaller mollies to hide. Then I added the gold gourami. The black mollies came to investigate him as soon as he was in the water and (to my surprise) he let them. Three days later there have been no problems whatsoever. He's eating great, his color is coming back, he and hangs out near the top of the aquarium, and near this large river rock I have in the corner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I thought he might bother my female balloon mollie because she's not as fast as the others, but she hangs out near him most all day and he pays her no mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My betta is in a ten gallon with the mollie babies and is also doing just great.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This brings me to my first question, would adding some platies be alright? My sister has been wanting some, and I don't feel like putting up another aquarium for them. I was thinking maybe one male and two or three females. Of course, I don't want anything that the gourami would bother. I also wanted some guppies, but I'm not sure how they would do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5473 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is this something of such magnitude as to require such a response? Would like to know so I can see the edges of the playing field?? (rugby?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You're waffling again, I did not and am not in a position to criticise your fish or fish tanks so I fail to see the point of that deviation from the subject or your reference to the diet of starfish which I don't dispute, I keep FOWLR and reef tanks as well as many fresh water tanks my self. The original subject was what constitutes the bio load so stick to it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 If you won't admit to your error in print then admit it to your self and lets bring an end to these pointless posts, by the way look up the definition of chastise!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anything does more ! cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > correct ' or words to that affect it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > knowledge of the hobby and because they are reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul helms wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think ! about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ammonia which is the bas! is of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > would appreciate it! if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > than producing, as part of the bio load either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > opinion, I may be wrong,! but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > &! gt; -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > &g! t; > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5474 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, good news with the snails,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Apple snails as with most terrestrial and fresh water are hermaphrodites (sp) which means they can have sex with any other snail in their species as they have both male and female organs but can't have sex with themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for the various colors, environment plays the biggest factor, well that and diet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In the same area they are found naturally are some very interesting arboreal snails called "Liggus". They live in gumbo-limbo trees on hammocks (small islands of raised ground that are found in the everglades) and feed on lichin. These hammocks might be as close as 1/2 mile apart but the liggus on each is totally different both in color and pattern. There are some 50 species found since 1940.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are very colorful, but die off in captivity. If you should find one leave it alone, it's on the CITIES list and would get you a stiff fine..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK, more than you wanted to know, Apple snails are both female and male.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                









                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5475 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wooo, "I'm missing the flour in this recipe?"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK, you have live cuttlefish, or are you using those cuttlefish "shells" for calcium? OK, I guess i just aanswered my own question.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That would work , so does coral sand (calcium carbonate, two elements your plants and fish need ) and it helps the root growth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I use both "0" & "00" sized coral sand along with beach jade.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The plants love it, fish like it and I like it so for me it's a no brainer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But you can do what you are most comfortable with , after all , it's your piece of paradise and you should have the last word.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for up-date,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The main reason we put the cuttlefish in there was so it added to the Calcium. A few have sat on it but don't know if they eat it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/22/04 23:53:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greetings again Sarah,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         I did see the eroded shells in one photo, it seemed normal for the species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Apple snails are predated by many species in the wild, bass, gar, gators, herons not to mention many parasites,  most of them I've found are only the size of a golf ball at best but some get very large (baseball size).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think the limiting factor is just plain old luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So don't dispair , they will thrive and in a few months you'll have so many you will wonder why you worried.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        One more note here and I'm sure I'll hear that I'm wrong but here goes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are herbivores, the cuttlefish chunks wouldn't be eaten . they would do better on frozen spinach IMHO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I will take some photos of the damaged snails shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We are adding the Calcium and it seems to be working. I have also hidden a piece of Cuttlefish in the back of the tank to help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/22/04 20:20:22
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greetings Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry for your gastropodian loss<]:~(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Did you ever figure out how the shell became eroded? I ask as Calcium deficiency might not be the answer, if the whole shell is brittle than I would side with that conclusion.  On the other hand being that it seemed like a hole worn into the shell I would think it might be a matter of abrasion possibly from repeatedly catching it's shell on a rock or some object that after a while would create a hole. Either way you didn't state whether the other apple snails had a holes . The operculum being damaged suggests that you have a predator ?? Could you list possible canidates such as some loaches or crayfish. If this information was already given than I will search the achives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BTW, A simple patch from CA glue (medium viscosity) using a piece of old shell from one long gone and attached around the edges as not to come in contact with the mantle would work nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yeah most of them wouldn't have had the damage they have from catching themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The one we had with the hole in its operculum has died :(:(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/22/04 16:21:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This thread might have played out already so if I missed it I can understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are you sure it's a calcium problem? I know that they (apple snails) sometimes journey around and scrap themselves on rocks . Is it still "OK"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yeah the body is exposed a couple of them are quite bad. I think i have lost one of the adults as it has a hole in its operculum (the door). and  atiny bit of it is coming out of it kinda thing, but everytime i touch it it closes it it is just laying there on its back at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Will the liquid calcuim and iodine harm the fish that are in the tank with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/16/04 23:57:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is the body exposed?  If so let me know and I'll tell you how to patch it.  The easiest way to get strong shells is to have a substrate mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral.  You can also add liquid calcium and iodine to the water.  1/2 the dosing recommended on the Kent's Marine Brand for saltwater tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Apple Snails Again!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can anyone help us we have a few baby apple snails that have holes in the shell? I have read that this could mean a calcium deficiency. Any ideas for helping them out abit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5476 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the reply, BUT, according to www.applesnail.net , they only have ONE  set of reproduction organs meaning that you need a Male AND Female.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This sentence was copied from the website.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Since apple snails are gonochoristic (separated sexes), a male and a female snail are needed(obvious)."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is also a good site for sexing apple snails - http://www.tronchaser.com/~cindi/ss.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/23/04 18:06:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wow, good news with the snails,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Apple snails as with most terrestrial and fresh water are hermaphrodites (sp) which means they can have sex with any other snail in their species as they have both male and female organs but can't have sex with themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As for the various colors, environment plays the biggest factor, well that and diet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In the same area they are found naturally are some very interesting arboreal snails called "Liggus". They live in gumbo-limbo trees on hammocks (small islands of raised ground that are found in the everglades) and feed on lichin. These hammocks might be as close as 1/2 mile apart but the liggus on each is totally different both in color and pattern. There are some 50 species found since 1940.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They are very colorful, but die off in captivity. If you should find one leave it alone, it's on the CITIES list and would get you a stiff fine..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK, more than you wanted to know, Apple snails are both female and male.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  









                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5477 From: Aranel Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          That's good to know. I had one red wag platy that lived in a two gallon tank with a snail a couple of years ago. It was a really cute fish and I'd really love to have some more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Platies were the first fish I bought for my 29g after it cycled. They are one of my favorites...peaceful, good color, active. Your ratio of 1M/2 or 3F is good. Mine have lived with a three-spot gourami, dwarf gouramis, and now a pair of paradisefish with no problems between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5478 From: Aranel Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So... You're saying one male and several females would be fine in my tank? Or did I misunderstand? I wouldn't mind having just females, I really want them for the color, since my fish are all black, white, or tan. (Except for the one neon tetra and the gourami.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don’t consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too aggressive. Though they will be fine with a gourami and molly and 1 male should be fine as it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5479 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Bioloads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think what has happened is I used the term bioload in a non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          scientific way. When I say I don't count an otto catfish or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in the bioload, I mean I don't count them in the number of inches of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish. I don't mean it the scientific way others are using it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          levels of O2 and CO2 in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5480 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Excellent pictures.  The left one is definitely male as you say, the one on the right looks more male to me but if I have your permission I will show it to the snail forum and get other opinions.  I have never seen a female with any lump like that near the mantle edge, that's why I am thinking it may be male also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Those photo's also show a good portion the shell, you do have erosion and pitting.  You can't fix it but you can stop it from getting worse as you are already trying to do.  If it seems very severe in area's that aren't visible on the photo you can dry the shell and paint it with nail polish.  Allow to dry thoroughly, rinse the snail off and plop it back in the tank.  That will protect sensitive area's from more erosion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          11 Tanks    2 with Turtles and 9 full of snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5481 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Carolyn Nagle [mailto:karlyn@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank size

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have inquired about a tank that is 110 gal and was told the dimensions were 4 ft X 4 ft X 18inches.  I used to have a 110 and I thought it was a lot longer and not as tall.  Is this a "standard" size?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Carolyn


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5482 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is the downside of a debate. It starts small, just two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people talking about their opinions on a subject, bioloads in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          case. Then it goes up and up, and then becomes an argument. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          now I see it is all my fault for making a simple statement that some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people don't count their ottos' inches in the inch/gallon count and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          misused the word bioload. I am sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          By the way, how do you have a group hug on a yahoo group? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Is this something of such magnitude as to require such a response?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like to know so I can see the edges of the playing field?? (rugby?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5483 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I was told the same thing (that apple snails can't reproduce w/out mulitple snails)...And i've had a blue apple snail as the only snail in my tank for sometime now and still have no babies....But i don't know how to tell them apart... :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer, & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the reply, BUT, according to www.applesnail.net , they only have ONE  set of reproduction organs meaning that you need a Male AND Female.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This sentence was copied from the website.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Since apple snails are gonochoristic (separated sexes), a male and a female snail are needed(obvious)."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is also a good site for sexing apple snails - http://www.tronchaser.com/~cindi/ss.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 09/23/04 18:06:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Wow, good news with the snails,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Apple snails as with most terrestrial and fresh water are hermaphrodites (sp) which means they can have sex with any other snail in their species as they have both male and female organs but can't have sex with themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As for the various colors, environment plays the biggest factor, well that and diet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In the same area they are found naturally are some very interesting arboreal snails called "Liggus". They live in gumbo-limbo trees on hammocks (small islands of raised ground that are found in the everglades) and feed on lichin. These hammocks might be as close as 1/2 mile apart but the liggus on each is totally different both in color and pattern. There are some 50 species found since 1940.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They are very colorful, but die off in captivity. If you should find one leave it alone, it's on the CITIES list and would get you a stiff fine..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            OK, more than you wanted to know, Apple snails are both ! female and male.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    









                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5484 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Digest Number 413
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- snipped post -----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This brings me to my first question, would adding some platies be alright? My sister has been wanting some, and I don't feel like putting up another aquarium for them. I was thinking maybe one male and two or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            three females.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ------- end snipped post --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm glad that the rescued gourami is doing well!! The platies should get along wonderfully with the mollies ... I have a platie/molly tank and mine do fine. I don't know how well platies get along with gouramis, as I don't keep gouramis. They get too big for my tiny 15 gallon aquarium ... I love the look of some of the dwarf gouramis, but don't feel I have enough swimming space for them.  As with most livebearers, platies will reproduce a LOT if they have the right conditions for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --------- snipped post -----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don't consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            aggressive. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --------- end snipped post -----------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That's odd, I never had any problems with my male platie before he died. My female mollies were bigger bullies than the male platie. I stand by my conviction that you can't judge an entire species of fish based on the behaviour of one fish. Or even several males, in your case. Perhaps it was territorial issues that caused your problems with male platies? All in all, I still say that not all fish act alike, just like not all PEOPLE act alike. Different temperaments, and personalities, etc. (And once again, I'm defending livebearers.) My aquarium has only females, but not because of aggression issues ... I just got tired of chasing babies to remove them from harm's way and then drive half an hour one way to take them to the LFS when they were big enough. Since the LFS wasn't offering a store credit or ANYTHING, it just wasn't worth the gas expense. Since you can't put fishies on "birth control", my only way of avoiding reproduction was to remove the males. I still have to watch my newest fish, the Mickey Mouse Platy and the Black Balloon Molly, for babies, especially considering the Mickey Mouse has had one baby since I got her, but that's all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5485 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm wondering the same thing,  Could I have 5 females and no mails and be okay, or do the females need a mail as well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Rob
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So... You're saying one male and several females would be fine in my tank? Or did I misunderstand? I wouldn't mind having just females, I really want them for the color, since my fish are all black, white, or tan. (Except for the one neon tetra and the gourami.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don’t consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too aggressive. Though they will be fine with a gourami and molly and 1 male should be fine as it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5486 From: Keith g Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Cubic Foot=7.480519 Gallons



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5487 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Length (in inches) x Width (in inches) x Height (in inches) -- divided by 231 should give you the approximate capacity in U.S. Gallons. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5488 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah you can use the pictures elsewhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We managed to take some pictures of the snails that seem to be worse, we will put them on another subject for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 09/23/04 20:08:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Excellent pictures.  The left one is definitely male as you say, the one on the right looks more male to me but if I have your permission I will show it to the snail forum and get other opinions.  I have never seen a female with any lump like that near the mantle edge, that's why I am thinking it may be male also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Those photo's also show a good portion the shell, you do have erosion and pitting.  You can't fix it but you can stop it from getting worse as you are already trying to do.  If it seems very severe in area's that aren't visible on the photo you can dry the shell and paint it with nail polish.  Allow to dry thoroughly, rinse the snail off and plop it back in the tank.  That will protect sensitive area's from more erosion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            11 Tanks    2 with Turtles and 9 full of snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5489 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here are the pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              One with a hole and going white, One with like layers in the shell, One with a split and going white and last but not least, one that sort of seems too fat for his shell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Many Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5490 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We were ok on sexing them but these 2 just looked so different. Take them out the water, let them come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                out their shells and take a pic then post on ere. Sure we could all help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/23/04 20:15:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I was told the same thing (that apple snails can't reproduce w/out mulitple snails)...And i've had a blue apple snail as the only snail in my tank for sometime now and still have no babies....But i don't know how to tell them apart... :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer, & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for the reply, BUT, according to www.applesnail.net , they only have ONE  set of reproduction organs meaning that you need a Male AND Female.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This sentence was copied from the website.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Since apple snails are gonochoristic (separated sexes), a male and a female snail are needed(obvious)."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is also a good site for sexing apple snails - http://www.tronchaser.com/~cindi/ss.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 09/23/04 18:06:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wow, good news with the snails,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Apple snails as with most terrestrial and fresh water are hermaphrodites (sp) which means they can have sex with any other snail in their species as they have both male and female organs but can't have sex with themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As for the various colors, environment plays the biggest factor, well that and diet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In the same area they are found naturally are some very interesting arboreal snails called "Liggus". They live in gumbo-limbo trees on hammocks (small islands of raised ground that are found in the everglades) and feed on lichin. These hammocks might be as close as 1/2 mile apart but the liggus on each is totally different both in color and pattern. There are some 50 species found since 1940.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They are very colorful, but die off in captivity. If you should find one leave it alone, it's on the CITIES list and would get you a stiff fine..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                OK, more than you wanted to know, Apple snails are both ! female and male.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        









                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5491 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Keeping all females is fine. A nice thing about platies is that females have coloring as good as males, which isn't always the case with fish. You'll have less potential agression with all females than with all males. You may still end up with fry though since they can store sperm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you do want a mix 1M/2F or even better 1M/3F, just to give the girls a break ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Again, I've kept platies for quite some time and have never had agression problems with them, males or females. I agree with Erin's comment about not juding an entire species based on the behavior of one-even two or three-fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Robb Rouse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm wondering the same thing,  Could I have 5 females and no mails and be okay, or do the females need a mail as well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So... You're saying one male and several females would be fine in my tank? Or did I misunderstand? I wouldn't mind having just females, I really want them for the color, since my fish are all black, white, or tan. (Except for the one neon tetra and the gourami.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5492 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All females are perfectly fine. They don’t need males. But males alone is a problem and can get aggressive if not enough females. I personally would never have more then 1 male platy in a small tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 23 September 2004 20:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm wondering the same thing,  Could I have 5 females and no mails and be okay, or do the females need a mail as well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rob

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So... You're saying one male and several females would be fine in my tank? Or did I misunderstand? I wouldn't mind having just females, I really want them for the color, since my fish are all black, white, or tan. (Except for the one neon tetra and the gourami.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don’t consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too aggressive. Though they will be fine with a gourami and molly and 1 male should be fine as it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5493 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cool Breeze Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yea I don't know the "How to" on that group hug either , maybe setting a time (zero hour greenwich time?) and we all hug our monitors. Might work..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As for the debate , it's a good way to learn as long as respect is upheld.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So to the bioload thing , as long as it's adjusted SLOWLY you don't have problems IMHO. big changes cause a die off on beneficail bacteria and thus that cyno bac takes over and all is lost.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But hey, that's coming from someone who has found peace with my algae, so I'm not the expert.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BA


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is the downside of a debate.  It starts small, just two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                people talking about their opinions on a subject, bioloads in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                case.  Then it goes up and up, and then becomes an argument.  And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                now I see it is all my fault for making a simple statement that some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                people don't count their ottos' inches in the inch/gallon count and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                misused the word bioload.  I am sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    By the way, how do you have a group hug on a yahoo group? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Is this something of such magnitude as to require such a response?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > like to know so I can see the edges of the playing field?? (rugby?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5494 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you think these 2 are mating, they were like this for about 5 minutes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/23/04 20:08:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Excellent pictures.  The left one is definitely male as you say, the one on the right looks more male to me but if I have your permission I will show it to the snail forum and get other opinions.  I have never seen a female with any lump like that near the mantle edge, that's why I am thinking it may be male also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Those photo's also show a good portion the shell, you do have erosion and pitting.  You can't fix it but you can stop it from getting worse as you are already trying to do.  If it seems very severe in area's that aren't visible on the photo you can dry the shell and paint it with nail polish.  Allow to dry thoroughly, rinse the snail off and plop it back in the tank.  That will protect sensitive area's from more erosion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  11 Tanks    2 with Turtles and 9 full of snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5495 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This comes from an expert in mollusca.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here are the pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  One with a hole and going white, One with like layers in the shell, One with a split and going white and last but not least, one that sort of seems too fat for his shell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Many Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          















                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5496 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could be , see if you get any gelatinous globs , they should have tiny white dots in them. Good call on the mating, nice to see othes who like snails . They do make for a more balanced aquaria, closer you get to the natural habitat the least of the probelms you encounter. BA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you think these 2 are mating, they were like this for about 5 minutes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 09/23/04 20:08:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Excellent pictures.  The left one is definitely male as you say, the one on the right looks more male to me but if I have your permission I will show it to the snail forum and get other opinions.  I have never seen a female with any lump like that near the mantle edge, that's why I am thinking it may be male also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Those photo's also show a good portion the shell, you do have erosion and pitting.  You can't fix it but you can stop it from getting worse as you are already trying to do.  If it seems very severe in area's that aren't visible on the photo you can dry the shell and paint it with nail polish.  Allow to dry thoroughly, rinse the snail off and plop it back in the tank.  That will protect sensitive area's from more erosion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  11 Tanks    2 with Turtles and 9 full of snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have attached 2 pics of our biggest snails  for some help with the sexing. Although they both look like they are male ones sheath seems different to the other. One is longer the one on the left and the one on the right has like a white lump???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5497 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This comes from an expert in mollusca.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are the pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    One with a hole and going white, One with like layers in the shell, One with a split and going white and last but not least, one that sort of seems too fat for his shell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Many Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            















                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5498 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I replay to the wrong email and was wondering about the female gourami.  Can I keep 4 or 5 of them by them self with no males or should it be a 1 to 2 ratio?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rob
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 2:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    All females are perfectly fine. They don’t need males. But males alone is a problem and can get aggressive if not enough females. I personally would never have more then 1 male platy in a small tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 23 September 2004 20:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm wondering the same thing,  Could I have 5 females and no mails and be okay, or do the females need a mail as well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rob

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So... You're saying one male and several females would be fine in my tank? Or did I misunderstand? I wouldn't mind having just females, I really want them for the color, since my fish are all black, white, or tan. (Except for the one neon tetra and the gourami.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don’t consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too aggressive. Though they will be fine with a gourami and molly and 1 male should be fine as it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5499 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Bioloads (and replying)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think most 'fish people' know the "inch per gallon" rule isn't the best indicator anyway. It's a basic way for people to get an idea, but the larger the fish, the more of an impact it has on the tank. Plus compatability, water parameters, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've had people at a 'large chain pet store' tell a friend he could keep an Oscar per gallon....Um....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I never wanted this 'debate' to take a bad turn. I do not think it's right to get to name calling and to take shots at people on these lists. I think that is for personal emails!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Everyone will have different opinions and experiences. Just realize that, and while you can disagree, remember to be polite about it. I have learned to be able to agree to disagree!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I also thought I'd add this....I know I get this list in digest format... I often dread reading my emails, because 75% of it is a long list of the original emails replied to. I just thought I'd bring it up, although I don't know if anyone else agrees. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5500 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've just got to have some of the cute Panda Corydoras! Do any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you know a good reliable source? They seem kinda hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    locate...??!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5501 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I fouind some at petsmart.. however mine passed on.. it was my fav so cute.. but i am thinking not very hardy unless it was not well when i bought it which might be the case..but it was fine for like 3 months then jsut died.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've just got to have some of the cute Panda Corydoras!  Do any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you know a good reliable source?  They seem kinda hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    locate...??!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5502 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The calcium will not fix the problem I agree with that.  It does however provide a base for the snail to grow healthier shell from here out.  The cause of the pitting and erosion on the shells (aside from the obvious damage) is low ph.  The acidic water is slowly eating the shell.  Pomacea Bridgesii require a constant ph of 7.8 or above for optimum shell conditions.  The damage does not happen overnight.  This can be stopped or slowed down by adding a mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral to your substrate.    If these snails are only 3-4 months old your ph level must be in the 6 range. Have you tested it by chance?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "to fat" -- how old is this snail?  This type of V mantle damage is consistent with a snail that mates frequently.  It will not heal, the snail can live quite a while like that. This can also be patched.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "split" -- this could possibly close up if you patch it.  I wouldn't bother doing that unless it get worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "layers" -- this condition is often seen in brigs that have had changing water conditions.  Normally when you bring a snail home from the pet store you will see a noticeable line across the shell after a while if your water is off from water they were in.  (usually they are coming into better conditions and the new shell is smoother and more even)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "hole" -- to me this looks like a case of a badly eroded shell and the snail may have dropped from the side of the tank and hit it on something and the last layer came off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am not saying anything negative about the care the snails have received, I am just differing from the statement below, these shells are not healthy at all.  I believe that you realize that and thus have sought out information to solve the problem.  Please don't be offended by anything I have said, I know first hand how frustrating it can be to work out a tank where the snails and all other occupants are in the best conditions possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is my online photo album, there are lots of pictures of healthy shells as well as damaged ones that I bought at pet stores and once from ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am not an "expert" but I do however own over 100 adults and 1000+ babies of this same species, I also moderate on a large snail forum and see pictures of this type thing regularly.  Hmmm, maybe I am becoming an expert lol...   After seeing this series of photos (which were excellent) I would strongly suggest applying nail polish to the white areas to prevent the other snails from becoming a "hole" snails also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This comes from an expert in mollusca.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5503 From: Carolyn Nagle Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am supposed to see the tank this weekend.  I will know then.  Thanks for all the replies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carolyn and the Basenji Gang
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Visit us at our website (in progress):
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.karlynbasenjis.homestead.com/karlyn~ns4.html 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/karlynken/lst?.dir=/Trampus+X+Mindy+pups&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/karlynken/album?.dir=/fcc8&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/karlynken/my_photos

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank size

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carolyn,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A 4ftx4ftx1.5ft tank should be 170 US Gallons and not 110. Can you confirm the dimensions again from the person you are enquiring from? I have a 4ft tank that is 105 US gallons and is 4ftx2.5ftx1.5ft (1.5ft tall)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Carolyn Nagle [mailto:karlyn@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 23 September 2004 11:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tank size

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have inquired about a tank that is 110 gal and was told the dimensions were 4 ft X 4 ft X 18inches.  I used to have a 110 and I thought it was a lot longer and not as tall.  Is this a "standard" size?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carolyn



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5504 From: Dozer Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I got mine at aquariumfish.net, which I consider a reliable source. I have seen them recently available on aquabid as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mine have been going strong for nearly a year now.......you will love them :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've just got to have some of the cute Panda Corydoras!  Do any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you know a good reliable source?  They seem kinda hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      locate...??!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5505 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      same here patrick!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think what has happened is I used the term
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bioload in a non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > scientific way. When I say I don't count an otto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > catfish or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in the bioload, I mean I don't count them in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > number of inches of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish. I don't mean it the scientific way others are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > using it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > levels of O2 and CO2 in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5506 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      make sure those are internal measurements, or you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be getting displacement instead of capacity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      =)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Length (in inches) x Width (in inches) x Height (in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > inches) -- divided by 231
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > should give you the approximate capacity in U.S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gallons. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5507 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not your fault at all patrick. just some people think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they need to top what everyone else states as an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      opinion. you can't help that at all. don't change a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      apul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > This is the downside of a debate. It starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > small, just two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > people talking about their opinions on a subject,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bioloads in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > case. Then it goes up and up, and then becomes an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > argument. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > now I see it is all my fault for making a simple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > statement that some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > people don't count their ottos' inches in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > inch/gallon count and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > misused the word bioload. I am sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > By the way, how do you have a group hug on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > yahoo group? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Is this something of such magnitude as to require
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > such a response?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > like to know so I can see the edges of the playing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > field?? (rugby?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5508 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      how about we make this simple norm....don't comment on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my posts anymore, leave it to those whom they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      directed to, and to teh rest of the group, and i will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do the same in your direction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > You're trying to wriggle out of an incorrect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > statement again ! drop it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:whatever
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > norm. as you stated in your previous post,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > many new hobbyists are setting up their 1st tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > most likely don't have another tank to draw from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > besides, that is not really setting up a new tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > splintering off another one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I agree about 'cycle' it's pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > useless, but your other statement about cycling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > no, if you go the right way about it using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > material
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > from an existing tank you can cycle a new tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > pretty well over night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:personally,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > do not like cycle because it makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > claims that it can't back up. no matter how you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > a tank, it will not be ready in three days. there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > isno way for the bacteria to colonize the filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- dawnmvo <dawnmvo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Hello
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I have just recently been tols that cycle is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > of money
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > because it is not refrigerated, even after I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > open
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it. All the good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > stuff if dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ANy thoghts on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5509 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i know quite well what it means, and here is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      defintion for you just incase you are interpretting it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as something other than mentioned "To criticize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      severely; rebuke."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks again, hope not to recieve any further post
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from you directed to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > You're waffling again, I did not and am not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in a position to criticise your fish or fish tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so I fail to see the point of that deviation from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the subject or your reference to the diet of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > starfish which I don't dispute, I keep FOWLR and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > reef tanks as well as many fresh water tanks my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > self. The original subject was what constitutes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bio load so stick to it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you won't admit to your error in print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then admit it to your self and lets bring an end to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > these pointless posts, by the way look up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > definition of chastise!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > anything does more cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > correct ' or words to that affect it would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > knowledge of the hobby and because they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > there will be less ammonia over all if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > will have less total ammonia in it than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it they are producing more ammonia not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > would appreciate it if you would state is as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > long as you are not target feeding them, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > than producing, as part of the bio load
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5510 From: crickit99 Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What area do you live in? They are common where I am, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      won't help you! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Most of the stores around here will order certain fish, if they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      get them. That might be an idea, as shipping can get pricey when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ordering online.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have has the best luck w/ my Pandas (knock on wood), but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      supposedly they are one of the harder Cories to keep. Who knew? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5511 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     you don't need to apologise, you're not the one that is trying to justify an erroneous post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is the downside of a debate.  It starts small, just two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      people talking about their opinions on a subject, bioloads in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      case.  Then it goes up and up, and then becomes an argument.  And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      now I see it is all my fault for making a simple statement that some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      people don't count their ottos' inches in the inch/gallon count and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      misused the word bioload.  I am sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          By the way, how do you have a group hug on a yahoo group? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Is this something of such magnitude as to require such a response?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > like to know so I can see the edges of the playing field?? (rugby?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5512 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gee, that's a loaded question?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK all trichogaster are  rather easy to sex when adult or mature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Take a look at the dorsal fin (top fin), in males it is long enough to come in contact with the Caudal fin (tail fin) . I wish it was this easy with other species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All my trichogastors have this and will take a shot of them as soon as my camera is back from the shop since it was damaged at that Cat Stevens concert.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As for can the girls get along, YES, can more than one male exsist in one tank, that's hard to tell. IF we have a large enough tank and many spots for the males to call their own (territory) YES.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We had two betta males in one 55 gl. Of course it was so heavily planted and rocked that they rarely met. That was the extreame, in the best . But MOST gourami's wil exsist as long as they have room.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK, with that said I gota go make dinner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb Rouse wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I replay to the wrong email and was wondering about the female gourami.  Can I keep 4 or 5 of them by them self with no males or should it be a 1 to 2 ratio?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Rob
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 2:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All females are perfectly fine. They don’t need males. But males alone is a problem and can get aggressive if not enough females. I personally would never have more then 1 male platy in a small tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 23 September 2004 20:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm wondering the same thing,  Could I have 5 females and no mails and be okay, or do the females need a mail as well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Rob

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Update on the gold gourami and some miscellaneous questions...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So... You're saying one male and several females would be fine in my tank? Or did I misunderstand? I wouldn't mind having just females, I really want them for the color, since my fish are all black, white, or tan. (Except for the one neon tetra and the gourami.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aranel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you want to add platies, I will suggest adding only females. My experience with platies lately have changed to a situation where I don’t consider male platies a good community fish. They may or maynot become too aggressive. Though they will be fine with a gourami and molly and 1 male should be fine as it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5513 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads (and replying)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Your comments on the 'debate' are appreciated, If you have followed it from the start you will I think realise that all I have tried to do is point out that the post in question was incorrect and very misleading for 'newbys', but he will not admit it. I have to admit that when it comes to protecting facts I can be more persistent than most, it's not difficult to admit to a bad chose of words nobody is infallible, even me !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      crickit99@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think most 'fish people' know the "inch per gallon" rule isn't the best indicator anyway.  It's a basic way for people to get an idea, but the larger the fish, the more of an impact it has on the tank. Plus compatability, water parameters, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've had people at a 'large chain pet store' tell a friend he could keep an Oscar per gallon....Um....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I never wanted this 'debate' to take a bad turn.  I do not think it's right to get to name calling and to take shots at people on these lists.  I think that is for personal emails!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Everyone will have different opinions and experiences.  Just realize that, and while you can disagree, remember to be polite about it. I have learned to be able to agree to disagree!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also thought I'd add this....I know I get this list in digest format... I often dread reading my emails, because 75% of it is a long list of the original emails replied to.  I just thought I'd bring it up, although I don't know if anyone else agrees. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5514 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             From the world recognised Oxford English Dictionary :- chastise =  punish, esp. by beating.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             I have said all I need to on the subject. I think most people are now aware that your post was misleading at best which is all I tried to point out in the first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i know quite well what it means, and here is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      defintion for you just incase you are interpretting it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as something other than mentioned "To criticize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      severely; rebuke."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks again, hope not to recieve any further post
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from you directed to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >         You're waffling again, I did not and am not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in a position to criticise your fish or fish tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so I fail to see the point of that deviation from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the subject or your reference to the diet of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > starfish which I don't dispute, I keep FOWLR and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > reef tanks as well as many fresh water tanks my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > self. The original subject was what constitutes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bio load so stick to it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >          If you won't admit to your error in print
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then admit it to your self and lets bring an end to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > these pointless posts, by the way look up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > definition of chastise!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >                               unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > anything does more cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > correct ' or words to that affect it would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > knowledge of the hobby and because they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > there will be less ammonia over all if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > think about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > will have less total ammonia in it than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ammonia which is the basis of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it they are producing more ammonia not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > would appreciate it if you would state is as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > long as you are not target feeding them, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > than producing, as part of the bio load
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5515 From: ben olds Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've seen them lately at petsmart.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Have a great day!  Ben... 


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5516 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Oooh, heres some fun stuff. I DO NOT know if it would be safe for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the tank. You'd have to see if the people at the site knew. Water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tests also, obviously.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.taxidermy.com/cat/18/artwater.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.burmanfoam.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      has got to have something.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >been a "Where there's a will, there's a way" person. Sounds like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >you are, too!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Always been a problem solver/creative thinker. Been a rough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      couple of days - I really appreciate the compliment Barb. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I really hope someone gives this a try... I don't know if I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      add another project to my list. Then again, don't know if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can forget this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can just see a great half water/half land, with fog effects,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mudskippers, rope fish, and real ugly mutant looking fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aquascape with acrylic coated rusty saw-blades, broken glass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bottles, syringe, rusted open can. Oh and black light.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5517 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi mark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I also would like it to be a peaceful and amicable place, I would point out that I normally only post on a subject when I'm sure of my facts, occasionally I will try to give advice if something has worked for me but I can't state it as fact, in this case I only tried to point out that what was said and the way it was said would be very misleading to someone with no biological knowledge and just starting in our hobby, but the person concerned took umbrage to what I thought was a polite correction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I would add that the vast majority of my knowledge of this hobby is gleaned from practical experience of what works and what doesn't, I have been keeping tropical fish for forty five years or more, I have also kept marine tanks for a good many years. Since I retired it is more than a hobby as plus my orchids it know takes virtually all my time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Is this something of such magnitude as to require such a response? Would like to know so I can see the edges of the playing field?? (rugby?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You're waffling again, I did not and am not in a position to criticise your fish or fish tanks so I fail to see the point of that deviation from the subject or your reference to the diet of starfish which I don't dispute, I keep FOWLR and reef tanks as well as many fresh water tanks my self. The original subject was what constitutes the bio load so stick to it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               If you won't admit to your error in print then admit it to your self and lets bring an end to these pointless posts, by the way look up the definition of chastise!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anything does more ! cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct ' or words to that affect it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > knowledge of the hobby and because they are reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul helms wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > think ! about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ammonia which is the bas! is of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > opinion and you are entitled to it, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > would appreciate it! if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > than producing, as part of the bio load either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > right on that part. As for snails, if they are!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > opinion, I may be wrong,! but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > &! gt; -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > &g! t; > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5518 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all for their replies...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll probably call the manager of the Pet's Mart where I used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      work as their trainer, and ask him to order some for me if I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      find them in a few weeks. I hope I have good luck with them...plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to put 'em in the tank w/ the Diamond Tetras and Black Phantom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Tetras. Surely wish that darn test kit would get here!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "crickit99"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <crickit99@a...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What area do you live in? They are common where I am, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > won't help you! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Most of the stores around here will order certain fish, if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > get them. That might be an idea, as shipping can get pricey when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ordering online.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have has the best luck w/ my Pandas (knock on wood), but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > supposedly they are one of the harder Cories to keep. Who knew? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5519 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: putting money in aquariums...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What FUNNNN!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And Halloween is just around the corner, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Why?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <justin4fun24@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Oooh, heres some fun stuff. I DO NOT know if it would be safe for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the tank. You'd have to see if the people at the site knew. Water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tests also, obviously.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.taxidermy.com/cat/18/artwater.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > And,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.burmanfoam.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has got to have something.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >been a "Where there's a will, there's a way" person. Sounds like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >you are, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Always been a problem solver/creative thinker. Been a rough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > couple of days - I really appreciate the compliment Barb. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I really hope someone gives this a try... I don't know if I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > add another project to my list. Then again, don't know if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can forget this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I can just see a great half water/half land, with fog effects,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > mudskippers, rope fish, and real ugly mutant looking fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Aquascape with acrylic coated rusty saw-blades, broken glass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bottles, syringe, rusted open can. Oh and black light.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5520 From: wjcoldman Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Blue Moscow Guppies -virgin females
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am in search of Blue Moscow Guppies -virgin females. I would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to find 10-15 for my planted 60 gallon tank. I currently have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      excellent males but have not found any nice females as of yet. Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      let me know if any are avaible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5521 From: bryants4god Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes they are mating.  The clutch will be a firm and long, here's a picture of some clutches.  They are laid above the water line and are pale pink at first, they turn that mottled gray color a few days before hatching.  It takes about 2 weeks.  Females can store sperm up to 6 months but usually lay within a week of mating.  The first few clutches are usually not fertile but I have had some that were.  You can get anywhere from 50 to 200 babies per clutch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5522 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got mine from a lfs; you could see if a store would order them for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        These sites have them available, the big problem with buying online is most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have a minimum order amount and/or high shipping costs:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.azgardens.com/misc_fish.php
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=934&TopCatId=1161
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/scavengers/scavengers.htm#catfish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I originally had six...cute fish, typical fun cory behavior. After a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        months I lost three within three days...water params fine, nothing new in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank (fish, plants, food, chemcials, etc), water temp and maintenance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        consistent...one day fine, the next day gone. I worked with a few people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        online but never could figure out why they died.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I planned to get two or three more but they weren't available then locally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did some tank rearrangements and the remaining three moved into my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Endler's breeding tank. Good color, very active, eating well...I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        leave well enough alone and just keep them as a group of three.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paradisefish, kuhlis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3x 2g-one female and two male bettas




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've just got to have some of the cute Panda Corydoras! Do any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you know a good reliable source? They seem kinda hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > locate...??!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5523 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Need some help deciding....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay, here's the deal...I have a 29 gal tank w/tetras and 2 angelfish, 5 ghost shrimp and 1 blue apple snail....I also have a 10 gal grow out tank w/platy fry and 3 baby snails in it....Now, I'm getting a 20 gal tomorrow and I need to figure out what I can/need to do with it...Should I make it my tetra tank and leave the Angels in teh 29 gal ? If i do that can I add anything else to the Angel tank? How many tetras can I safely add to the 20 gal (i've got 14 tetras [5 black neons, 5 glo lite and 4 neons]) once my fry grow out i'll have more to grow out so i'm not worried about the 10 gallon (though I do need to find a hood/light assembly w/out paying $30 for one at walmart, any suggestions?) thanks for your help/advice....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer, & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5524 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: aquapet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Aquapet in livermore CA is moving locations and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        selling the existing tanks very very cheap. i do work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there, but no,i do not get anything for posting this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here. just wanted to make that point clear. i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        telling anyone in the area about it because you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get a bigger or extra tank extremely cheap, and fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        deserve the best home they can get. there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably 20 20 gallon tanks in both acrylic and glass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for about $15.00 each, 4 55 gallon glass tanks for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        $40.00, 8 35 gallon glass drilled w/ back wall over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flows for $40.00, 2 135 gallon glass tanks for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        $100.00, 240 gallon glass tank $500.00, 90 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glass tank for $50-60.00. most come with the gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and rock decorations, and some with biowheel or ug
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filters. the owner wants to start up the new location
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with all new tanks and filtration systems, as well as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        expanding the salt water and pond sections.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5525 From: paul helms Date: 9/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those dimesnions add up to a 180 gallon tank, could it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        possibly be a 48*30*18? i belive that is a current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        standard. oceanic used to make a 5 foot 110, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        currently you can only get them in 4 or 6 foot sizes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they do not make the 5 footer anymore, unfortunately.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Carolyn Nagle <karlyn@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have inquired about a tank that is 110 gal and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > told the dimensions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were 4 ft X 4 ft X 18inches. I used to have a 110
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and I thought it was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lot longer and not as tall. Is this a "standard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > size?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Carolyn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5526 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All the snails we have now are the same age, They are all from our first ever clutch of babies. Even the 2 big ones that we were trying to sex, and "too fat"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We just tested our PH in all tanks results were 100 Litre 7.0-8.5, Biorb where the snails are 5.0 ( we didn't realize how low this was). Is there anything else that we can higher the PH slowly with??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 00:30:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The calcium will not fix the problem I agree with that.  It does however provide a base for the snail to grow healthier shell from here out.  The cause of the pitting and erosion on the shells (aside from the obvious damage) is low ph.  The acidic water is slowly eating the shell.  Pomacea Bridgesii require a constant ph of 7.8 or above for optimum shell conditions.  The damage does not happen overnight.  This can be stopped or slowed down by adding a mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral to your substrate.    If these snails are only 3-4 months old your ph level must be in the 6 range. Have you tested it by chance?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "to fat" -- how old is this snail?  This type of V mantle damage is consistent with a snail that mates frequently.  It will not heal, the snail can live quite a while like that. This can also be patched.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "split" -- this could possibly close up if you patch it.  I wouldn't bother doing that unless it get worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "layers" -- this condition is often seen in brigs that have had changing water conditions.  Normally when you bring a snail home from the pet store you will see a noticeable line across the shell after a while if your water is off from water they were in.  (usually they are coming into better conditions and the new shell is smoother and more even)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "hole" -- to me this looks like a case of a badly eroded shell and the snail may have dropped from the side of the tank and hit it on something and the last layer came off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not saying anything negative about the care the snails have received, I am just differing from the statement below, these shells are not healthy at all.  I believe that you realize that and thus have sought out information to solve the problem.  Please don't be offended by anything I have said, I know first hand how frustrating it can be to work out a tank where the snails and all other occupants are in the best conditions possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here is my online photo album, there are lots of pictures of healthy shells as well as damaged ones that I bought at pet stores and once from ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not an "expert" but I do however own over 100 adults and 1000+ babies of this same species, I also moderate on a large snail forum and see pictures of this type thing regularly.  Hmmm, maybe I am becoming an expert lol...   After seeing this series of photos (which were excellent) I would strongly suggest applying nail polish to the white areas to prevent the other snails from becoming a "hole" snails also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This comes from an expert in mollusca.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5527 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are you sure?.. The reason we ask this is that we have just read the post you put up for us on applesnail. net and we see that the person on there agreed with you that the 2 we wanted sexing were both male, well the picture of the "maybe mating" are the 2 snails that we have said are both males?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        confused (have we got gay snails?) .......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 06:29:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes they are mating.  The clutch will be a firm and long, here's a picture of some clutches.  They are laid above the water line and are pale pink at first, they turn that mottled gray color a few days before hatching.  It takes about 2 weeks.  Females can store sperm up to 6 months but usually lay within a week of mating.  The first few clutches are usually not fertile but I have had some that were.  You can get anywhere from 50 to 200 babies per clutch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5528 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: newly planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i need some advice on my planted tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > first of all, i have a 30 gallon tall tank (24" tall)running on an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eclipse. I have 2 18" 15 watt lights (stock). I have a brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with sp. gravity at 1.003. I have researched that serveral plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well in brackish. These are the plants that I have and researched:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wisteria (hygrophilia difformis), hygrophilia polysperma, bacopa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > carolinia, corkscrew val (vallisneria americana), water sprite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (cerotopteris thalictroides), indian fern (cerotopteris cornuta),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and java fern (microserium pteropus). please, give me your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feedback.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do you guys think they'll do well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5530 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.Aquariumfish.net has been really good for us. No minimum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        order, and the fish arrived healthy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've just got to have some of the cute Panda Corydoras! Do any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you know a good reliable source? They seem kinda hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > locate...??!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5531 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Debates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here's an idea. When you want to debate something thoroughly, email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the person privately until it is all worked out. It's easier to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your point across and come to an understanding when the peanut
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallery isn't chiming in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5532 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Panda Corydoras......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I love these forums...not only are they fun, it's great to know who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the "good guys" are! There's a site that I love that rates the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        garden catalogs, too. VERRRRY helpful!!! I think it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gardenwatchdog.com, or something similar. If anyone is interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can look it up and let you know. It's a good 'un!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.Aquariumfish.net has been really good for us. No
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        minimum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > order, and the fish arrived healthy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I've just got to have some of the cute Panda Corydoras! Do any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > you know a good reliable source? They seem kinda hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > locate...??!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5533 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Need some help deciding....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would leave the angels in the 29g. You could then add a school of cories or a small group of loaches if you wanted any bottom feeders. A BN plec or a few otos for algae. If you're not interested in any clean-up fish maybe a school of another type of tetra, harlequin rasboras, or non-nippy barbs. It really depends on what you're looking for in a tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is the 20g going to be tetras only? If so I'd personally fill out your schools to 6. That's rather stocked but do-able with good filtration and regular water changes. You could also add a centerpiece fish like a small gourami or pair of cherry barbs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You might want to check http://www.bigalsonline.com/splash.html for the hood/light, they frequently have better prices than lfs/lps, even with shipping costs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay, here's the deal...I have a 29 gal tank w/tetras and 2 angelfish, 5 ghost shrimp and 1 blue apple snail....I also have a 10 gal grow out tank w/platy fry and 3 baby snails in it....Now, I'm getting a 20 gal tomorrow and I need to figure out what I can/need to do with it...Should I make it my tetra tank and leave the Angels in teh 29 gal ? If i do that can I add anything else to the Angel tank? How many tetras can I safely add to the 20 gal (i've got 14 tetras [5 black neons, 5 glo lite and 4 neons]) once my fry grow out i'll have more to grow out so i'm not worried about the 10 gallon (though I do need to find a hood/light assembly w/out paying $30 for one at walmart, any suggestions?) thanks for your help/advice....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5534 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Great gardening info has fishie connection, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My own curiosity made me double check to be sure the website I gave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out in my last post was correct, and it is. Gardenwatchdog.com is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still there, and very active. A great place to check out whether or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not you should deal with any company you are considering. I peeked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at the site again, and looked to see if I could find any sites w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water plants...and YEP, there are some there. Some don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ratings yet, so it would be good ,if any of you have had dealings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the listed companies, to rate them! It's wonderful to check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the rating before you send off your hard earned money!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5535 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Didn't realize it was the same pair lol...  Actually male snails will mate with anything alive!  If that second snail is a male you won't get anything from it.  Are any of your other snails female?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 2:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are you sure?.. The reason we ask this is that we have just read the post you put up for us on applesnail. net and we see that the person on there agreed with you that the 2 we wanted sexing were both male, well the picture of the "maybe mating" are the 2 snails that we have said are both males?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        confused (have we got gay snails?) .......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 06:29:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes they are mating.  The clutch will be a firm and long, here's a picture of some clutches.  They are laid above the water line and are pale pink at first, they turn that mottled gray color a few days before hatching.  It takes about 2 weeks.  Females can store sperm up to 6 months but usually lay within a week of mating.  The first few clutches are usually not fertile but I have had some that were.  You can get anywhere from 50 to 200 babies per clutch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5536 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Trying to find one the smaller ones are a little least keen to come out their shells. We have a total of 27 so hopefully there will be a few females. Most of them range from a cm to a cm and a half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 13:35:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Didn't realize it was the same pair lol...  Actually male snails will mate with anything alive!  If that second snail is a male you won't get anything from it.  Are any of your other snails female?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 2:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are you sure?.. The reason we ask this is that we have just read the post you put up for us on applesnail. net and we see that the person on there agreed with you that the 2 we wanted sexing were both male, well the picture of the "maybe mating" are the 2 snails that we have said are both males?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        confused (have we got gay snails?) .......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 06:29:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes they are mating.  The clutch will be a firm and long, here's a picture of some clutches.  They are laid above the water line and are pale pink at first, they turn that mottled gray color a few days before hatching.  It takes about 2 weeks.  Females can store sperm up to 6 months but usually lay within a week of mating.  The first few clutches are usually not fertile but I have had some that were.  You can get anywhere from 50 to 200 babies per clutch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5537 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Need some help deciding....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay, I'm going to leave the Angels in the 29 gal and I'd like to add some sort of cories and a few otos...I'd like to find some cories that are cute and fun to watch (not a dull, drab color)...any suggestions? as for the ottos, i would like to try and find some " Dwarf Sucking Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ottos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        " ...does that sound doable?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For my 20 gal, i'm going to up the schools to 6 of each of the tetras and a pair of Cherry Barbs...I do hvae more than sufficient filters and I do at least weekly water changes....any other suggestions? Thanks for your suggestions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer, & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Need some help deciding....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would leave the angels in the 29g. You could then add a school of cories or a small group of loaches if you wanted any bottom feeders. A BN plec or a few otos for algae. If you're not interested in any clean-up fish maybe a school of another type of tetra, harlequin rasboras, or non-nippy barbs. It really depends on what you're looking for in a tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is the 20g going to be tetras only? If so I'd personally fill out your schools to 6. That's rather stocked but do-able with good filtration and regular water changes. You could also add a centerpiece fish like a small gourami or pair of cherry barbs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You might want to check http://www.bigalsonline.com/splash.html for the hood/light, they frequently have better prices than lfs/lps, even with shipping costs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec, queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay, here's the deal...I have a 29 gal tank w/tetras and 2 angelfish, 5 ghost shrimp and 1 blue apple snail....I also have a 10 gal grow out tank w/platy fry and 3 baby snails in it....Now, I'm getting a 20 gal tomorrow and I need to figure out what I can/need to do with it...Should I make it my tetra tank and leave the Angels in teh 29 gal ? If i do that can I add anything else to the Angel tank? How many tetras can I safely add to the 20 gal (i've got 14 tetras [5 black neons, 5 glo lite and 4 neons]) once my fry grow out i'll have more to grow out so i'm not worried about the 10 gallon (though I do need to find a hood/light assembly w/out paying $30 for one at walmart, any suggestions?) thanks for your help/advice....


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5538 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With 27 small snails you'll have clutches out your ears in 4 or 5 months!  Are you getting more snails? I thought Susan mentioned you looking for some.  I saw your post about the low ph.  There is a natural ingredient you can use, here it's called baking soda (bicarbonate of soda), This is a temporary fix until you can add better substrate, it buffs to 7.4  You add 1/4 tsp per 10 gal of water to start and slowly build up to 1 tsp per 10 gal. Dissolve in water out of tank, don't pour the powder straight into the tank. Watch your snails for a little while after the first use just you can see if they have any reaction, if they do you'll need to do a partial water change, my snails have never been bothered by it.  I also strongly suggest the aragonite sand and crushed coral to help keep your ph up.  Also limestone helps some people with ph problems, I believe they use it in cichlid tanks and they require very high ph also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Trying to find one the smaller ones are a little least keen to come out their shells. We have a total of 27 so hopefully there will be a few females. Most of them range from a cm to a cm and a half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5539 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes we are looking to have more snails in about a month or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Right we went and got some coarse marine gravel 4 kilos of it. It says on the bag that it is ideal for freshwater where higher PH levels are required. So we are going to put some in the tank and see what happens, we don't know how long it takes to work but i will test the water everyday for now to see how its doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 15:10:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With 27 small snails you'll have clutches out your ears in 4 or 5 months!  Are you getting more snails? I thought Susan mentioned you looking for some.  I saw your post about the low ph.  There is a natural ingredient you can use, here it's called baking soda (bicarbonate of soda), This is a temporary fix until you can add better substrate, it buffs to 7.4  You add 1/4 tsp per 10 gal of water to start and slowly build up to 1 tsp per 10 gal. Dissolve in water out of tank, don't pour the powder straight into the tank. Watch your snails for a little while after the first use just you can see if they have any reaction, if they do you'll need to do a partial water change, my snails have never been bothered by it.  I also strongly suggest the aragonite sand and crushed coral to help keep your ph up.  Also limestone helps some people with ph problems, I believe they use it in cichlid tanks and they require very high ph also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Trying to find one the smaller ones are a little least keen to come out their shells. We have a total of 27 so hopefully there will be a few females. Most of them range from a cm to a cm and a half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5540 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Need some help deciding....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regarding your cory question...you might like the ones I'm zeroing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in on...the Panda Corydora. From the pics and all I've read...they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are a must have!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Family" <dnrfleener@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay, I'm going to leave the Angels in the 29 gal and I'd like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        add some sort of cories and a few otos...I'd like to find some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cories that are cute and fun to watch (not a dull, drab color)...any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suggestions? as for the ottos, i would like to try and find some "
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dwarf Sucking Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ottos" ...does that sound doable?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > For my 20 gal, i'm going to up the schools to 6 of each of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras and a pair of Cherry Barbs...I do hvae more than sufficient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filters and I do at least weekly water changes....any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suggestions? Thanks for your suggestions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dnrfleener@c...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Dan & Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Need some help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        deciding....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I would leave the angels in the 29g. You could then add a school
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of cories or a small group of loaches if you wanted any bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeders. A BN plec or a few otos for algae. If you're not interested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in any clean-up fish maybe a school of another type of tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        harlequin rasboras, or non-nippy barbs. It really depends on what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you're looking for in a tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is the 20g going to be tetras only? If so I'd personally fill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out your schools to 6. That's rather stocked but do-able with good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filtration and regular water changes. You could also add a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        centerpiece fish like a small gourami or pair of cherry barbs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You might want to check http://www.bigalsonline.com/splash.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the hood/light, they frequently have better prices than lfs/lps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even with shipping costs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30g-angel, kribs, moonlight & pearl gouramis, keyholes, Bolivian
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rams, black phantom tetras, three-lined cories, dwarf loaches, BN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29g-angel, German rams, paradisefish, platies, guppies, BN plec,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        queen loaches, kuhlis, black kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10g-female betta, WCMMs, cherry barbs, belted barbs, exclamation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        point rasboras, pygmy cories, ADF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10g-Endler's, otos, panda cories
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10g-honey, sparkling, and three-striped croaking gouramis, spike-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tailed paradisefish, kuhlis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6g-dwarf puffers, bumblebee gobies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3x 2g-one female and two male bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Fleener Family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay, here's the deal...I have a 29 gal tank w/tetras and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        angelfish, 5 ghost shrimp and 1 blue apple snail....I also have a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gal grow out tank w/platy fry and 3 baby snails in it....Now, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        getting a 20 gal tomorrow and I need to figure out what I can/need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to do with it...Should I make it my tetra tank and leave the Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in teh 29 gal ? If i do that can I add anything else to the Angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank? How many tetras can I safely add to the 20 gal (i've got 14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras [5 black neons, 5 glo lite and 4 neons]) once my fry grow out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i'll have more to grow out so i'm not worried about the 10 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (though I do need to find a hood/light assembly w/out paying $30 for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one at walmart, any suggestions?) thanks for your help/advice....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5541 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry Sarah, I Didn't know that the loaches were placed in the tank after the shell problem, Clown loaches will eat snails and they are great for controlling them , but I was erroneous in my opinion. So what do you think is eating the snails mantle ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I jumped to conclusions unknowingly for which I'm sorry once again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Snails are fascinating creatures, the range in color , patterning and structure is unbelievable to the point that many novices think they were painted,,, an easy mistake to make.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well I would worry about the snails with the chips in the shells just keep an eye on the one with the erosion . The fleshy part of the animal should have grown past the hole by the looks of the age o the shell. I hope I didn't cast a bad shadow on they loaches as that's not my intention.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This comes from an expert in mollusca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here are the pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        One with a hole and going white, One with like layers in the shell, One with a split and going white and last but not least, one that sort of seems too fat for his shell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Many Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                















                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5542 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth, but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ... in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So, in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety, below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm wondering if I should leave the group altogether ... I work nights and my online time is limited. I don't have the time to scroll past all that gibberish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm in another group where the refusal to "snip" was a problem, and the group owner/ moderator put the person who was always doing this on "moderated messages" ... this way, that member's messages went to the group moderator BEFORE going to the group, and the moderator snipped them, then sent them on to the group. It might be a good idea for a certain two members who can NEVER get along and debate without getting personal and acting like a couple of juveniles, as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If my suggestions are attacked, so be it, I'll just unsub. I'm not IN high school anymore, so I don't have to surround myself with people who are fighting over stupid stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5543 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Debates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Excuse me but I was only trying to smooth out some possible bumps in the road here . I didn't want two of the best minds on this list over reacting to the situation and leaving the list. The comment about "Peanut Galley" seems a bit back handed and is not a nice message to post here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Like you said, keep that private but I guess public humiliation is cannon fodder FOR SOME HERE and needed to be paraded about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here's an idea.  When you want to debate something thoroughly, email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the person privately until it is all worked out.  It's easier to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your point across and come to an understanding when the peanut
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallery isn't chiming in.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5544 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greetings again Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Calcium Carbonate sand like the kind used in salt water aquariums will get the Ph back in line. Those numbers of 5.0 are extreamly high on the acidic side IMHO.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BTW, I read the list of fish you keep, impressive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All the snails we have now are the same age, They are all from our first ever clutch of babies. Even the 2 big ones that we were trying to sex, and "too fat"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We just tested our PH in all tanks results were 100 Litre 7.0-8.5, Biorb where the snails are 5.0 ( we didn't realize how low this was). Is there anything else that we can higher the PH slowly with??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/24/04 00:30:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The calcium will not fix the problem I agree with that.  It does however provide a base for the snail to grow healthier shell from here out.  The cause of the pitting and erosion on the shells (aside from the obvious damage) is low ph.  The acidic water is slowly eating the shell.  Pomacea Bridgesii require a constant ph of 7.8 or above for optimum shell conditions.  The damage does not happen overnight.  This can be stopped or slowed down by adding a mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral to your substrate.    If these snails are only 3-4 months old your ph level must be in the 6 range. Have you tested it by chance?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "to fat" -- how old is this snail?  This type of V mantle damage is consistent with a snail that mates frequently.  It will not heal, the snail can live quite a while like that. This can also be patched.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "split" -- this could possibly close up if you patch it.  I wouldn't bother doing that unless it get worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "layers" -- this condition is often seen in brigs that have had changing water conditions.  Normally when you bring a snail home from the pet store you will see a noticeable line across the shell after a while if your water is off from water they were in.  (usually they are coming into better conditions and the new shell is smoother and more even)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "hole" -- to me this looks like a case of a badly eroded shell and the snail may have dropped from the side of the tank and hit it on something and the last layer came off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not saying anything negative about the care the snails have received, I am just differing from the statement below, these shells are not healthy at all.  I believe that you realize that and thus have sought out information to solve the problem.  Please don't be offended by anything I have said, I know first hand how frustrating it can be to work out a tank where the snails and all other occupants are in the best conditions possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here is my online photo album, there are lots of pictures of healthy shells as well as damaged ones that I bought at pet stores and once from ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not an "expert" but I do however own over 100 adults and 1000+ babies of this same species, I also moderate on a large snail forum and see pictures of this type thing regularly.  Hmmm, maybe I am becoming an expert lol...   After seeing this series of photos (which were excellent) I would strongly suggest applying nail polish to the white areas to prevent the other snails from becoming a "hole" snails also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This comes from an expert in mollusca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5545 From: Fleener Family Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Debates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have to say that i am very disappointed in the group as I've seen more arguing and name calling since I have joined than I have seen actual help. I am unsubbing as soon as I send this email b/c I did not join the group for all it's entertainment value, i joined hoping to learn something from other mature adults that shared in my hobby. To those of you that are staying, have fun and good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Adios!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer, & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Debates

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Excuse me but I was only trying to smooth out some possible bumps in the road here . I didn't want two of the best minds on this list over reacting to the situation and leaving the list. The comment about "Peanut Galley" seems a bit back handed and is not a nice message to post here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Like you said, keep that private but I guess public humiliation is cannon fodder FOR SOME HERE and needed to be paraded about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here's an idea.  When you want to debate something thoroughly, email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the person privately until it is all worked out.  It's easier to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your point across and come to an understanding when the peanut
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallery isn't chiming in.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5546 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          That's ok :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just so there is no more confusion this is the story with the snails. We bough a few very large snails from the local aqua shop. Then one night we noticed snails crawling up and down the glass of the tank so we lifted the lid to find our first ever clutch of about 100 eggs some hatched some hatching and some dead. So we moved the snails into a floating nursing tank until we got a new tank. Then they all went in there one their own. We then moved them to the tank they are in now with a few guppies and mollies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We have no idea what is eating them,  once we have the PH sorted hopefully things will get better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks to everyone who is helping us at the moment. We want to get things perfect for when we get our new ones.:):)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/24/04 15:49:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry Sarah, I Didn't know that the loaches were placed in the tank after the shell problem, Clown loaches will eat snails and they are great for controlling them , but I was erroneous in my opinion. So what do you think is eating the snails mantle ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I jumped to conclusions unknowingly for which I'm sorry once again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Snails are fascinating creatures, the range in color , patterning and structure is unbelievable to the point that many novices think they were painted,,, an easy mistake to make.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well I would worry about the snails with the chips in the shells just keep an eye on the one with the erosion . The fleshy part of the animal should have grown past the hole by the looks of the age o the shell. I hope I didn't cast a bad shadow on they loaches as that's not my intention.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This comes from an expert in mollusca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here are the pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          One with a hole and going white, One with like layers in the shell, One with a split and going white and last but not least, one that sort of seems too fat for his shell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Many Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  















                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5547 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks, we hope to get more tanks in time. :):)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/24/04 15:57:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Greetings again Sarah,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Calcium Carbonate sand like the kind used in salt water aquariums will get the Ph back in line. Those numbers of 5.0 are extreamly high on the acidic side IMHO.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          BTW, I read the list of fish you keep, impressive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          All the snails we have now are the same age, They are all from our first ever clutch of babies. Even the 2 big ones that we were trying to sex, and "too fat"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We just tested our PH in all tanks results were 100 Litre 7.0-8.5, Biorb where the snails are 5.0 ( we didn't realize how low this was). Is there anything else that we can higher the PH slowly with??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/24/04 00:30:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The calcium will not fix the problem I agree with that.  It does however provide a base for the snail to grow healthier shell from here out.  The cause of the pitting and erosion on the shells (aside from the obvious damage) is low ph.  The acidic water is slowly eating the shell.  Pomacea Bridgesii require a constant ph of 7.8 or above for optimum shell conditions.  The damage does not happen overnight.  This can be stopped or slowed down by adding a mixture of aragonite sand and crushed coral to your substrate.    If these snails are only 3-4 months old your ph level must be in the 6 range. Have you tested it by chance?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "to fat" -- how old is this snail?  This type of V mantle damage is consistent with a snail that mates frequently.  It will not heal, the snail can live quite a while like that. This can also be patched.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "split" -- this could possibly close up if you patch it.  I wouldn't bother doing that unless it get worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "layers" -- this condition is often seen in brigs that have had changing water conditions.  Normally when you bring a snail home from the pet store you will see a noticeable line across the shell after a while if your water is off from water they were in.  (usually they are coming into better conditions and the new shell is smoother and more even)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "hole" -- to me this looks like a case of a badly eroded shell and the snail may have dropped from the side of the tank and hit it on something and the last layer came off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am not saying anything negative about the care the snails have received, I am just differing from the statement below, these shells are not healthy at all.  I believe that you realize that and thus have sought out information to solve the problem.  Please don't be offended by anything I have said, I know first hand how frustrating it can be to work out a tank where the snails and all other occupants are in the best conditions possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here is my online photo album, there are lots of pictures of healthy shells as well as damaged ones that I bought at pet stores and once from ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am not an "expert" but I do however own over 100 adults and 1000+ babies of this same species, I also moderate on a large snail forum and see pictures of this type thing regularly.  Hmmm, maybe I am becoming an expert lol...   After seeing this series of photos (which were excellent) I would strongly suggest applying nail polish to the white areas to prevent the other snails from becoming a "hole" snails also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This comes from an expert in mollusca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5548 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Debates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Cynthia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On the face of it that would seem to be a good idea, but the problem would be the rest of the group members would be left with a seemingly undisputed incorrect post, my concern is for the people reading the incorrect post not for the person posting if they don't except my advice/input.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here's an idea.  When you want to debate something thoroughly, email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the person privately until it is all worked out.  It's easier to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          your point across and come to an understanding when the peanut
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gallery isn't chiming in.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5549 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cool, thanks for the update.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Neat to see others who appreciate their usefulness.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The habitat they come from (well one of them) is southern florida , namely the *Everglades*. the substrate for the most part is crushed coral and limestone, the Ph is about 7.6-8.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Some of the whoppers we have found are the size of baseballs. Most have some shell damage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Maybe the root of your damaged shells were simply mating but I've never seen it like the photos. The shells we found that had similar damage we from the crayfish prying at the shells. We even found a group of about 6 crayfish eating on a live snail they had pried a hole in and were methodically dismantling it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But this doesn't say the other causes were erroneous and one never knows unless we witness the event

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          *Everglades and apple snails website*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.miamisci.org/ecolinks/everglades/applesnailinof.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          *Fish of the everglades, you might see some common platy's and sailfins*


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/southflorida/everglades/Marshes/evergladesfish.html



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          That's ok :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just so there is no more confusion this is the story with the snails. We bough a few very large snails from the local aqua shop. Then one night we noticed snails crawling up and down the glass of the tank so we lifted the lid to find our first ever clutch of about 100 eggs some hatched some hatching and some dead. So we moved the snails into a floating nursing tank until we got a new tank. Then they all went in there one their own. We then moved them to the tank they are in now with a few guppies and mollies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We have no idea what is eating them,  once we have the PH sorted hopefully things will get better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks to everyone who is helping us at the moment. We want to get things perfect for when we get our new ones.:):)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/24/04 15:49:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry Sarah, I Didn't know that the loaches were placed in the tank after the shell problem, Clown loaches will eat snails and they are great for controlling them , but I was erroneous in my opinion. So what do you think is eating the snails mantle ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I jumped to conclusions unknowingly for which I'm sorry once again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Snails are fascinating creatures, the range in color , patterning and structure is unbelievable to the point that many novices think they were painted,,, an easy mistake to make.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well I would worry about the snails with the chips in the shells just keep an eye on the one with the erosion . The fleshy part of the animal should have grown past the hole by the looks of the age o the shell. I hope I didn't cast a bad shadow on they loaches as that's not my intention.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The snails were not in with the Clowns these are a batch of babies that are about 3-4 months old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           "The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all seem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lol.... They are golden apples.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the compliments on the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/23/04 22:24:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Damaged Snails!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Too Fat" is an old battle wound, it comes from  something that ate at the mantle , the shell can not  form normally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "split" is another  old wound that the snail survived. normal and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Layered" is another form of predation. in this case it's something took a big chunk out of the mantle causing an uneven shell. We see these wounds in marine snails, mostly from hermit crabs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "hole" looks like a weal shell BUT the shell that formed after seems ok, might be that something was working away at it over time, polices duplicata (sharks eye whelk) uses a radula and a caustic saliva to bore perfect round holes in the bivalves right at the abductor muscle attachment point. once the muscle is cut the shell open they the whelk has dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As for what did this I don't know if I would commit to calcium as the other shells are healthy and the damage is from predators not from lack of Ca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This comes from an expert in mollusca.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The lack of brown coloring is simply a loss of perostricum of coating some shells have to keep critters from attaching to the shell. it should grow back, if not I wouldn't worry, they all sem ok except the eroded one, just wait and see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice images BTW. Very good lighting, and you can see the path of damage, in most images I get for identification the shell is barely visible

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your predator is probably the clown loaches as they just love snails (molluscvivorious) try and find some small ramshorn snails that grow fast and the loaches like them even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope this helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here are the pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          One with a hole and going white, One with like layers in the shell, One with a split and going white and last but not least, one that sort of seems too fat for his shell??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Many Thanks in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  















                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5550 From: harry perry Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Heated "debates", losing members, To all from a moderator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We have just lost a member due to the latest round of petty bickering. This is not acceptable. Folks come here to learn and to relax and enjoy their hobby, not to listen to two people fight. I don't know who started what. I DON'T CARE. I know this. If it happens again all involved will go on moderated status. If it persists you will be banned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry Perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Moderator 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5551 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     As one of the people involved in the 'debate' I apologise but I would like to point out that your problems stems from the way yahoo runs these groups not the individuals posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the answer to your problem is to change your e-mail instructions to read on line, then you can read only what you chose to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth, but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ... in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So, in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety, below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm wondering if I should leave the group altogether ... I work nights and my online time is limited. I don't have the time to scroll past all that gibberish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm in another group where the refusal to "snip" was a problem, and the group owner/ moderator put the person who was always doing this on "moderated messages" ... this way, that member's messages went to the group moderator BEFORE going to the group, and the moderator snipped them, then sent them on to the group. It might be a good idea for a certain two members who can NEVER get along and debate without getting personal and acting like a couple of juveniles, as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If my suggestions are attacked, so be it, I'll just unsub. I'm not IN high school anymore, so I don't have to surround myself with people who are fighting over stupid stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Black Balloon Molly


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5552 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just curious Terri, Aren't apple snails hemophrodites?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Gay Snails" are they raising a rainbow flag or crossdressing  LOLx10.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice image of the egg clusters BTW.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I guess the only way to tell for sure would be to isolate two mature aplles snails and if you end up with eggs then they are. Oh , wait , if they aren't hemophrodites and we randomly pick out a single female/male then the test would be nulled. So I guess it would have to involve say ten tanks and 10 sets of snails to root out the the random chance of Male/female and have a better chance of having test subjects of the same sex.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh forget it , this is stupid on my part (DUH) and would only waste time so if you get babies then you're ahead of the class.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I still need to see your website on rainbow snails. seems interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mark (Black Adder)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Didn't realize it was the same pair lol...  Actually male snails will mate with anything alive!  If that second snail is a male you won't get anything from it.  Are any of your other snails female?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 2:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Are you sure?.. The reason we ask this is that we have just read the post you put up for us on applesnail. net and we see that the person on there agreed with you that the 2 we wanted sexing were both male, well the picture of the "maybe mating" are the 2 snails that we have said are both males?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          confused (have we got gay snails?) .......lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/24/04 06:29:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yes they are mating.  The clutch will be a firm and long, here's a picture of some clutches.  They are laid above the water line and are pale pink at first, they turn that mottled gray color a few days before hatching.  It takes about 2 weeks.  Females can store sperm up to 6 months but usually lay within a week of mating.  The first few clutches are usually not fertile but I have had some that were.  You can get anywhere from 50 to 200 babies per clutch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Instant Messenger - rainbowsnails


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5553 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If it's not to late ---- don't add it all at once to the tank with a ph of 5, you may shock them.  Add a handful or so for a couple days and then a little more, after your ph is around 7 you can dump in all you want.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes we are looking to have more snails in about a month or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Right we went and got some coarse marine gravel 4 kilos of it. It says on the bag that it is ideal for freshwater where higher PH levels are required. So we are going to put some in the tank and see what happens, we don't know how long it takes to work but i will test the water everyday for now to see how its doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5554 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I must retract my earlier comment about the apple snails being herbivores. It seems they are omnivores ( eat just about anything they can catch or find.  Maybe the snail I saw in the everglades being eaten by crayfish was actually on some sort of carrion it too ws eating.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyways, wanted to set the record straight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mark (BA)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes we are looking to have more snails in about a month or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Right we went and got some coarse marine gravel 4 kilos of it. It says on the bag that it is ideal for freshwater where higher PH levels are required. So we are going to put some in the tank and see what happens, we don't know how long it takes to work but i will test the water everyday for now to see how its doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, aint they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 09/24/04 15:10:11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          With 27 small snails you'll have clutches out your ears in 4 or 5 months!  Are you getting more snails? I thought Susan mentioned you looking for some.  I saw your post about the low ph.  There is a natural ingredient you can use, here it's called baking soda (bicarbonate of soda), This is a temporary fix until you can add better substrate, it buffs to 7.4  You add 1/4 tsp per 10 gal of water to start and slowly build up to 1 tsp per 10 gal. Dissolve in water out of tank, don't pour the powder straight into the tank. Watch your snails for a little while after the first use just you can see if they have any reaction, if they do you'll need to do a partial water change, my snails have never been bothered by it.  I also strongly suggest the aragonite sand and crushed coral to help keep your ph up.  Also limestone helps some people with ph problems, I believe they use! it in cichlid tanks and they require very high ph also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Trying to find one the smaller ones are a little least keen to come out their shells. We have a total of 27 so hopefully there will be a few females. Most of them range from a cm to a cm and a half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5555 From: harry perry Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Debates/Fleener family.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Please stay. When yahoo finally decides to post my message concerning this problem you will see it has been dealt with.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Moderator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Fleener Family <dnrfleener@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have to say that i am very disappointed in the group as I've seen more arguing and name calling since I have joined than I have seen actual help. I am unsubbing as soon as I send this email b/c I did not join the group for all it's entertainment value, i joined hoping to learn something from other mature adults that shared in my hobby. To those of you that are staying, have fun and good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Adios!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Darrell & Robin Fleener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Proud parents to: Kaitlin, Josh, A.J., Jordan, Jessica, Jennifer, & Ethan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Debates

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Excuse me but I was only trying to smooth out some possible bumps in the road here . I didn't want two of the best minds on this list over reacting to the situation and leaving the list. The comment about "Peanut Galley" seems a bit back handed and is not a nice message to post here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Like you said, keep that private but I guess public humiliation is cannon fodder FOR SOME HERE and needed to be paraded about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here's an idea.  When you want to debate something thoroughly, email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the person privately until it is all worked out.  It's easier to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          your point across and come to an understanding when the peanut
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gallery isn't chiming in.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5556 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No they aren't, here's a link that shows the male and female http://www.tronchaser.com/~cindi/ss.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          All apple snails require a male and female to reproduce.  There are other common aquarium snails that do not require this, for example planorbis and physids  -- they aren't male/female but it does take 2 to reproduce.  Malaysian Trumpet Snails or MTS reproduce by parthenogenesis (gives birth to live young without breeding or having fertilization of the eggs) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There have been reported cases of the apple snail pomacea canaliculata changing sex if they are kept in groups of only males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Mark J. Bethke [mailto:mbethke@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just curious Terri, Aren't apple snails hemophrodites?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Gay Snails" are they raising a rainbow flag or crossdressing  LOLx10.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice image of the egg clusters BTW.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I guess the only way to tell for sure would be to isolate two mature aplles snails and if you end up with eggs then they are. Oh , wait , if they aren't hemophrodites and we randomly pick out a single female/male then the test would be nulled. So I guess it would have to involve say ten tanks and 10 sets of snails to root out the the random chance of Male/female and have a better chance of having test subjects of the same sex.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh forget it , this is stupid on my part (DUH) and would only waste time so if you get babies then you're ahead of the class.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I still need to see your website on rainbow snails. seems interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mark (Black Adder)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5557 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi again Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I probably wasn't quite clear in my first reply, to 'snip' the posts as you put it the poster would need to change the subject line every time which would  make matters even worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would also like to say that the later part of your post is worded in such a way that would start a lot of the infighting in the first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       unclenorm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth, but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ... in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So, in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety, below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm wondering if I should leave the group altogether ... I work nights and my online time is limited. I don't have the time to scroll past all that gibberish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm in another group where the refusal to "snip" was a problem, and the group owner/ moderator put the person who was always doing this on "moderated messages" ... this way, that member's messages went to the group moderator BEFORE going to the group, and the moderator snipped them, then sent them on to the group. It might be a good idea for a certain two members who can NEVER get along and debate without getting personal and acting like a couple of juveniles, as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If my suggestions are attacked, so be it, I'll just unsub. I'm not IN high school anymore, so I don't have to surround myself with people who are fighting over stupid stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Black Balloon Molly


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5558 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 9/22/2004 6:52:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, steve@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Endler's Livebearers are guppies?  Don't tell the Endler's breeder about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that.  The prices of their stock will go down! :)  There is a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          controversy over the issue between those who say it is a color form and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          those who say it is a separate species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          LOL,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ok Patrick that was funny.  I own both Guppies and Endler's.  I will not lose any sleep if they are called guppies, it would be nice to not interbreed them with other guppies.  I got them because of their colors and not to make a killing in the Endler's stock market.  Locally they are about the same price as guppies, just a bit harder to locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5559 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Totally understandable from both points of view.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a small debate which is not a problem as I'm learning allot from Terri, she has first hand knowledge of the species that my observations can't even come close to matching   being that as my knowledge of  these fresh water snails is from observed over a time span past my own at some 3 years diving in "Gator Holes" in the glades. but still doesn't trump Terri's in the slightest.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My field of extremely intensive study is with marine gastropodia namely the family of "Conus"  (cone shells ) which have one species that is the most venomous creature on this planet, Conus Geographus (Linnueas 1758) which their is no anti venom for and has been linked to many deaths. We call it "The three step shell" as that is about how long it takes for paralysis to set in to a point that many divers never reach the surface. Each year about 1-5 tourists are found dead as they thought the shell was empty and soon feel a sting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK , I better jump off the soap box and shut the heck up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Most respectfully,  Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi mark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       I also would like it to be a peaceful and amicable place, I would point out that I normally only post on a subject when I'm sure of my facts, occasionally I will try to give advice if something has worked for me but I can't state it as fact, in this case I only tried to point out that what was said and the way it was said would be very misleading to someone with no biological knowledge and just starting in our hobby, but the person concerned took umbrage to what I thought was a polite correction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       I would add that the vast majority of my knowledge of this hobby is gleaned from practical experience of what works and what doesn't, I have been keeping tropical fish for forty five years or more, I have also kept marine tanks for a good many years. Since I retired it is more than a hobby as plus my orchids it know takes virtually all my time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wow, I thought we had a peaceful place here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Is this something of such magnitude as to require such a response? Would like to know so I can see the edges of the playing field?? (rugby?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I got an idea ,,, GROUP HUG!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're waffling again, I did not and am not in a position to criticise your fish or fish tanks so I fail to see the point of that deviation from the subject or your reference to the diet of starfish which I don't dispute, I keep FOWLR and reef tanks as well as many fresh water tanks my self. The original subject was what constitutes the bio load so stick to it please.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   If you won't admit to your error in print then admit it to your self and lets bring an end to these pointless posts, by the way look up the definition of chastise!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          well norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as i stated, my post which you have quoted says "i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          generally don't" which is not a statement of what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          right or wrong, but what i do. that was my point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          directed to you. and just so you do know, most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          starfish are scavengers that do consume detritous, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish manure, they were on my list too. that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          statement about what i consider to be part of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bioload, and i don't need to be chastised by you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tanks do very well, with the average life of 3-4 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for fish in my tanks and 2+ years for shrimp, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          must have been doing something right for the past 15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I think maybe you have forgotten what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > posted that my reply was for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Your words were :- " generally I don't count
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anything! does more ! cleaning than producing as part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the bio load either i.e. coris, snails, algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > eaters, starfish, crabs, etc", those were your exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > words ! every species you quoted there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > indisputably part of the bio load alive or dead,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > this is what I replied to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If that is not what you meant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I would suggest you proof read your posts before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sending them. Had you added 'are my assumptions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > correct ' or words to that affect it would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a different matter. We must remember that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > posts are read by people just starting with no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > knowledge of the hobby and because they are reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > on a dedicated site they are inclined to believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > what they read !.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My reply was factual and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul helms wrote:Norm-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there will be less ammonia over all if you actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > think ! about it. they are consuming food that would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > otherwise rot and relase ammonia anyway. the body of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the fish uses some of the food as calories, and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > build it body, so the waste that the fish excretes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will have less total ammonia in it than the rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > food would yield. yes it is still there, but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can't have more ammonia from the same amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i will grant that there may be additional ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the urine of the fish, but this amount will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in compaarison to what they have stopped from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rotting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and nim is 100% accurate in his restatement of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > am saying. we do not need to play semantics (sp)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > That is not my opinion. It is a statement of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fact, any living thing except bacteria produces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ammonia which is the bas! is of the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Can you name me a living fish, critter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > whatever that does not produce ammonia,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > discounting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > bacteria of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > You state, "they are processing waste,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > resulting in less ammonia"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > your use of the word waste refers to "cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > what was left behind" if you refer to yours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Patrick's previous posts that reference applies to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > food. If they are consuming food or waste as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > it they are producing more ammonia not decreasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > it. the only things that consume ammonia in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > aquarium are aerobic bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > If I say some thing I am not sure of I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > say it is my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul helms wrote:that is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > opinion and you are entitled to i! t, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > would appreciate it! if you would state is as such,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > not as a statement of fact. i agree with patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > that they are cleaning up what was left behind,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > long as you are not target feeding them, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > processing waste, resulting in less ammonia and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > diminished nitrogen cycle. if you will notice that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > post was stated as opinion, i think that we would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > be better off keeping it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- "Norman. S. Hampson."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > If it is a living organism and it is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > tank it is part of your bio load, cleaning crews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > consume waste and add to the bio load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > &! gt;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > > > paul helms wrote:generally, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > don't count tanything does more cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > than producing, as part of the bio load either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > cori's, snails, algae eaters, starfish, crabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > This doesn't go with my original idea. If a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > fish only eats food that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > was meant for other fish, then even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > that is produced after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > digestion, there is now less waste produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > waste will not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > released until the fish dies and decomposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > gas levels, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > right on that part. As for snails, ! if they are!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > eating food that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > been left by other fish, there is less waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > produced that taken in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > I admit that this is all in the area of theory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > and ideas, I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > any scientific evidence to support this idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > mine, so it could easily be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > wrong. What is sure is that an otto or snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > produces much less waste than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > they take in unless you feed them extra food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > many people do. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > can't see an otto, cory, or snail produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > waste to count them the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > same as you count something like a tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > gourami,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > etc. This is just my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > opinion, I! may be wrong,! but I won't admit it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > if you prove it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > It is called being stubborn. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          &g! t; > > &! gt; -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 2°,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > I will have to agree that for most fish, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > want to start messing w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > the pH or GH really. Some fish, like Discus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > more delicate when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > comes to that. But often you can cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > issues
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > &g! t; > > in trying to regulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > those than just leaving them alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Bioloads....well, I breed snails for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Puffers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5560 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Fascinating, thanks for the correction <]:~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I didn't even know there are two species involved here.I would like to know if they are subspecies as the mollusk collectors of florida have a bad reputation for naming new species for self promotion and leaves the ICZN guidelines at the wayside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your added comments about the damage from mating is very intresting and noted. I bow to you with the quote "I'm not Worthy"....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyways, thanks for opening my eyes to a new species to study , of course this means I have to get a few to add to the tank and pond ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No they aren't, here's a link that shows the male and female http://www.tronchaser.com/~cindi/ss.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          All apple snails require a male and female to reproduce.  There are other common aquarium snails that do not require this, for example planorbis and physids  -- they aren't male/female but it does take 2 to reproduce.  Malaysian Trumpet Snails or MTS reproduce by parthenogenesis (gives birth to live young without breeding or having fertilization of the eggs) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There have been reported cases of the apple snail pomacea canaliculata changing sex if they are kept in groups of only males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Mark J. Bethke [mailto:mbethke@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just curious Terri, Aren't apple snails hemophrodites?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Gay Snails" are they raising a rainbow flag or crossdressing  LOLx10.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice image of the egg clusters BTW.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I guess the only way to tell for sure would be to isolate two mature aplles snails and if you end up with eggs then they are. Oh , wait , if they aren't hemophrodites and we randomly pick out a single female/male then the test would be nulled. So I guess it would have to involve say ten tanks and 10 sets of snails to root out the the random chance of Male/female and have a better chance of having test subjects of the same sex.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh forget it , this is stupid on my part (DUH) and would only waste time so if you get babies then you're ahead of the class.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I still need to see your website on rainbow snails. seems interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mark (Black Adder)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5561 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yeesh! They don't sell those as fish tank snails do they? Are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          any poisonous freshwater snails we should watch out for?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My field of extremely intensive study is with marine gastropodia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          namely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the family of "Conus" (cone shells ) which have one species that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most venomous creature on this planet, Conus Geographus (Linnueas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1758)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > which their is no anti venom for and has been linked to many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          deaths. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > call it "The three step shell" as that is about how long it takes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paralysis to set in to a point that many divers never reach the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Each year about 1-5 tourists are found dead as they thought the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          shell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > was empty and soon feel a sting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5562 From: wjcoldman Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Plant tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a question for anyone. My LFS guy said that in a tank that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          devoted to mostly plants you do not want anything type of filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          breaks the surface of the water as that lets out the CO2. I am using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a wet/dry filter now and adding CO2 with the yeast mixture container
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and buble release I got a while back. Would I be better off to use my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fulval canasiter filter with the outlet toward the bottom of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so as to not distrube the surface of the water? Any comments or help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would be great. It is a 60 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5563 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No, not that have been researched but that's because marine gastropodia are more "Glamorous" then freshwater snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The conus family have about three species that are deadly, textile, bullatus, geographus, the latter being the real killer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do they sell them in the LFS, NO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have been very patient with a supplier in PI as they usually just cook these shells and strip out the meat to sell the shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So we will see more and wildly varied mollusca in the future.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          An idea of *value*,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Conus textile: $4-$10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Conus Bullatus: $30-$70
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Conus Geographus: $2-$8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And that's if they are in "Fine/perfect" condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If they would be marketed the price would be ten times that as per the nerites selling at the rate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           *value of collectable specimen shells is anywhere from pennies (nerites, bivalves) to thousands of dollars, Casimeria incomparibalis of which only two specimens known to exist is about $50,000. *
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I know this is off topic but does still pertain to the overview of  mollusks in the aquarium,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yeesh!  They don't sell those as fish tank snails do they?  Are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          any poisonous freshwater snails we should watch out for?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5564 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          When you put decorative shells into your freshwater aquarium, does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that help to provide calcium for your snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5565 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If I may, The calcium in the shells is the same as the calcium carbonate in coral sand BUT it molecular structure isn't fractured as with coral sand. The matrix of the shells is extremely dense and strong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You could see in a microscopic view that the lattice is made up of perfect webs all pushing against each other with equal pressure. A shell of a liguus tree snail you can crush like a garden snail, but you can use a pink Conch (Strombus Gigas) to support a car if the other wheels are in contact with the ground.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They need to be so heavily built as their predator that takes them (besides man) are nurse sharks which don't bite as much as they suck the animal out of the shell.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The largest gastropod is the Australian Trumpet which has been found to be almost 4 ft long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Largest Bivalve is Pinna Nobalis at about the same size, 3-4 ft . BTW, the abductor muscles of Pinna (pen shells) is used as a substitue for deep sea scallops and most of us don't even know but if you order scallops and they are large, they most likely from the pen shells

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Conchologists of Amercia has a great web site explaining sea shells. You can see the passion collectors have for them, I , myself stopped collecting and sold my collection of conus (387 species with over 700 specimens) and never took another mollusc , i found it was as bad as victorian trophy hunters since they were collected for their shell in this case.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I know use my knowledge to educate and demonstrate the usefulness of LIVE molluscs. They can keep the tank clean of algae , eat and process detritus and even look cool, just don't expect much in the way of personality or conversation



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          When you put decorative shells into your freshwater aquarium, does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that help to provide calcium for your snails? 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5566 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Phosphate troubles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks Norm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I found my problem, it is with the Ph neutralizer I was adding. It uses phosphate buffers to raise or lower the Ph, so I will not be using it any more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for your help though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5567 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: egglayers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never liked the way animals and plants are placed into species.  My opinion is that no method of taxonomy will work well, but at least it helps.  My opinion is if an endler and guppy cross and the hybrid is fertile (and from what I've read they are), endlers are a color form of guppies, not a second species.  But, endlers are a natural color form of guppy that may be extinct in the wild, so they should be kept pure just to prevent them from being gone forever.  At the same time, for the average person I see no reason to worry about it.  I just think somewhere, a zoo or public aquarium for example, there should be pure endler guppies kept to protect them for future generations or until they can be reintroduced in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              LOL,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ok Patrick that was funny.  I own both Guppies and Endler's.  I will not lose any sleep if they are called guppies, it would be nice to not interbreed them with other guppies.  I got them because of their colors and not to make a killing in the Endler's stock market.  Locally they are about the same price as guppies, just a bit harder to locate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5568 From: robdar4609 Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Buddy for Puffer Fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Iv got one spottet leopard puffer in a 10-gallon...he is about an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              inch...any suggestions on what I can put in there with him..more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              puffers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5569 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: aquapet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I will swing by and see what's left tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for posting this info.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mike in Pleasanton
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5570 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just be careful, these types of snails are very addicting!  I started with one - which I intended to feed to my turtle LOL  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please come visit the snail forum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ithis means I have to get a few to add to the tank and pond ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5571 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you have a picture of this venomous snail?  I would love to see it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My field of extremely intensive study is with marine gastropodia namely the family of "Conus"  (cone shells ) which have one species that is the most venomous creature on this planet, Conus Geographus (Linnueas 1758) which their is no anti venom for and has been linked to many deaths. We call it "The three step shell" as that is about how long it takes for paralysis to set in to a point that many divers never reach the surface. Each year about 1-5 tourists are found dead as they thought the shell was empty and soon feel a sting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5572 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thank you ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I know about addiction, my wife has it with orchids. Ever want a short book that is informative on orchids? Read "The Orchid Thief" by Susan Orleans. She is a writer for the new york post book review section. After a trip to florida she fell into the "Orchid Trap" and was very soon deep in . She also discusses the Victorian Orchid hunters who would be gone for a year only to turn up with crates full of new species. The competition with the hunters was so perverse they would collect all the orchids they can find in a given  part of a jungle then set fire to it to keep the other hunters from finding their own specimens. Many were never heard from again, example being a New Guinea expedition where the orchids grew only on bone (don't ask me why) . The locals would lay their dead out in the jungle for about a year then place the bones back in their homes which were now stripped of flesh. The hunters tried to grab a few of these orchids but found they died not long after being freed from the bone, so they tried to take the bones and all. The account states that they didn't all make it back to the boat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Many hunters were never heard from again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anyways, I do love snails but don't look forward to having them eat my plants. How destructive are they, I don't mind a bit of loss but not a wholesale dismantling. I guess if they are omnivores then they would probably be more interested in the fish foods both flake and frozen. Or at least I hope so... Funny, when in Florida we never collected them, we were after the liguus as they sell for about $50 each and maybe $200 for an Archie Jonesi, yes he does have one named after himself but he deserves it as he's considered the for most expert on these tree snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OK, I better get dinner going, BBS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just be careful, these types of snails are very addicting!  I started with one - which I intended to feed to my turtle LOL  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please come visit the snail forum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ithis means I have to get a few to add to the tank and pond ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5573 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's a link to a page of various color forms. As you might notice this conus has a very thin shell in comparison, if you pack a punch like these guys you don't need a think shell. I will keep looking to find a live specimen. Enjoy, oh and never pick one up, even when picking them up by the spire they can swing around and sticg you. They have evolved their radula (dentalia IE teeth) into a glass like harpoon which they shoot into their victim. it's attached to a venom sack and the critter can replicate new harpoons at about one per ten days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The group gastropodia which they fall into means in latin gastro=stomach podia=foot. When they subdue a victim they then envelop the entire fish in thier foot and dissolve the fllesh then spit the bones and skin out in a few hours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's the link:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.conchology.be/availableShells/SearchResultsGallery.php

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hope you enjoy it. you will find some beautiful images of live shells but not this species, i guess trying to find someone to hold it up for a picture was hard to find.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you have a picture of this venomous snail?  I would love to see it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My field of extremely intensive study is with marine gastropodia namely the family of "Conus"  (cone shells ) which have one species that is the most venomous creature on this planet, Conus Geographus (Linnueas 1758) which their is no anti venom for and has been linked to many deaths. We call it "The three step shell" as that is about how long it takes for paralysis to set in to a point that many divers never reach the surface. Each year about 1-5 tourists are found dead as they thought the shell was empty and soon feel a sting.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5574 From: bryants4god Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the link, the are some gorgeous shells there, I am going to share this link with the snail forum. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's the link:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.conchology.be/availableShells/SearchResultsGallery.php

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hope you enjoy it. you will find some beautiful images of live shells but not this species, i guess trying to find someone to hold it up for a picture was hard to find.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5575 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Bioloads and pH NOW: venomous snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Excellent, Guido Poppe is a very nice guy and will share knowledge and can get you goods rates on some very beautiful shells of which the most colorful and intricately patterned are relatively inexpensive for the most part. Cypraea Tigris or the Tiger Cowrie is absolutely gorgous shell and is only about $5 fror a very large , perfect shell. Same with the geographus (animal moved out BTW) of which to hold the shell would never impart it's deadly nature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am glade you like the site ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              PS, tell him you know me he'll give you a discount

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bryants4god wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the link, the are some gorgeous shells there, I am going to share this link with the snail forum. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's the link:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.conchology.be/availableShells/SearchResultsGallery.php

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hope you enjoy it. you will find some beautiful images of live shells but not this species, i guess trying to find someone to hold it up for a picture was hard to find.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5576 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A lot depends upon the list members. I belong to lists where you can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              skewered for snipping any of the original post(s) to which you are replying.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In other lists, it is all but required to snip the original post, and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              send your reply. I kinda like something in between--keep enough of the post
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so that people know what you are replying to in case they missed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              beginning of the thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I prefer to get individual messages. Digests simply don't cut it for me. I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              rather sort by subject and delete those I don't have an interest in reading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do get between 200 and 300 e-mails a day and can generally get through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them in a 2-3 hour session at the computer here at home. I do delete some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              stuff wholesale, the rest are at least skimmed for sorting into other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              folders for future reference. Can't do that with a digest. It's all or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The one thing I can't stand, and I seem to have lost the battle, is using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              HTML for messages. You plain don't need it. If you need graphics to get your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              point across, you can simply link to them in your e-mail, and not carry all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the baggage of HTML. If I was to do this message in HTML the size would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              twice what it is now. I don't care how cheap disk space is--I have more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              important things I can use the space for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Erin VanKouwenberg [mailto:celticmama78@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 10:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              last digest I got.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm wondering if I should leave the group altogether ... I work nights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my online time is limited. I don't have the time to scroll past all that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gibberish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm in another group where the refusal to "snip" was a problem, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              group owner/ moderator put the person who was always doing this on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "moderated messages" ... this way, that member's messages went to the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              moderator BEFORE going to the group, and the moderator snipped them, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sent them on to the group. It might be a good idea for a certain two members
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              who can NEVER get along and debate without getting personal and acting like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a couple of juveniles, as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If my suggestions are attacked, so be it, I'll just unsub. I'm not IN high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              school anymore, so I don't have to surround myself with people who are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fighting over stupid stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Black Balloon Molly








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5577 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wow, I snipped this message, and I didn't have to change the subject at all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Fancy that!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Simply trimming off text from the original does not necessitate changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, if a thread has gotten off topic, I might change the subject to be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              appropriate, but only then, and I'd keep the original subject in there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi again Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I probably wasn't quite clear in my first reply, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              'snip' the posts as you put it the poster would need to change the subject
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              line every time which would make matters even worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would also like to say that the later part of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              post is worded in such a way that would start a lot of the infighting in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5578 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Thai, and new aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thai is in his new aquarium, and he was very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today. He is so happy with all the room he has. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              co-worker's betta lost a lot of space, though, and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sulking for a while. Poor thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I also have two new five gallon aquariums. I'm going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to start a tropical setup like my mom used to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              when I was younger.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I was wondering about filters. Are they necessary if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you plan to do partial water changes often? With five
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gallon tanks, I'd probably change half of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              once a week, if that's adequate. If that's completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrong, please correct me... it's been years, well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              decades actually, since my mom had her aquarium setup,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and I do remember we had some live plants... does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              make a huge difference on how often water needs to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              changed out?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Lorelei



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5579 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Plant tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Walter,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Breaking the surface of the water will not waste your CO2. Using a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              supplemental CO2 source can only help. The problem is that you may put too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              much CO2 into your water to the detriment of your tank. I haven't really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              studied gaseous exchange to a great extent, but here is what I understand.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When water comes into contact with a gas, there will be an exchange of gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to establish and maintain an equilibrium. The bubbles create surface area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that is in contact with the water. Some of the gas in the bubbles will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              transferred to the water. The finer the bubbles you have, the more surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              area is presented to the water. The bubbles breaking the surface of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water will also enhance the amount of water exposed to gas., but not as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              as the bubbles themselves provide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A couple of other things. Temperature of the water determines, to some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              extent, the amount of gas that can saturate the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, watch your pH when adding CO2. It is a guide as to whether you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              add more (higher ph) or add less (the pH being lower). The higher pH will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mean you need to increase your flow. A lower pH means you will need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              decrease your flow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: wjcoldman [mailto:wjcoldman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Plant tanks


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a question for anyone. My LFS guy said that in a tank that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              devoted to mostly plants you do not want anything type of filter that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              breaks the surface of the water as that lets out the CO2. I am using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a wet/dry filter now and adding CO2 with the yeast mixture container
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and buble release I got a while back. Would I be better off to use my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fulval canasiter filter with the outlet toward the bottom of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so as to not distrube the surface of the water? Any comments or help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              would be great. It is a 60 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Walter






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5580 From: Steve Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Thai, and new aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Lorelei,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, you do need a filter, if for no other reason to filter out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              particulate matter in the aquarium. It will also provide a home for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bacteria important to the nitrogen cycle. A small air driven sponge filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in the corner will probably do the trick.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Change 1/2 to 1 gallon of water per week. Water changes are no substitute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for filtration.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Lorelei Cosner [mailto:loreleicosner@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Thai, and new aquariums


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thai is in his new aquarium, and he was very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today. He is so happy with all the room he has. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              co-worker's betta lost a lot of space, though, and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sulking for a while. Poor thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I also have two new five gallon aquariums. I'm going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to start a tropical setup like my mom used to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              when I was younger.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I was wondering about filters. Are they necessary if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you plan to do partial water changes often? With five
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gallon tanks, I'd probably change half of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              once a week, if that's adequate. If that's completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrong, please correct me... it's been years, well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              decades actually, since my mom had her aquarium setup,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and I do remember we had some live plants... does that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              make a huge difference on how often water needs to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              changed out?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Lorelei



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5581 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 9/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: JD/Oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What would you suggest as minimum tank size for either a JD or an oscar?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5582 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This snipping thing Is I'm afraid getting this old brain a little confused, you say you have snipped this post of yours yet it still has Erin's and my messages attached on my screen !, I always thought that yahoo automatically linked all messages with the same subject line. All I've ever done is used the reply button and written my post, then it always shows up with all the previous posts on that subject shown below it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On rereading I see that you have indeed removed a couple of the original posts on the subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Please enlighten a not very computer competent old fogy, is it something like select and delete ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wow, I snipped this message, and I didn't have to change the subject at all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Fancy that!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Simply trimming off text from the original does not necessitate changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, if a thread has gotten off topic, I might change the subject to be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              appropriate, but only then, and I'd keep the original subject in there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi again Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I probably wasn't quite clear in my first reply, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              'snip' the posts as you put it the poster would need to change the subject
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              line every time which would  make matters even worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would also like to say that the later part of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              post is worded in such a way that would start a lot of the infighting in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5583 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We have joined the applesnail forum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              100 Litre Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, ain't they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              30 Litre Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              19 Litre waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: 09/24/04 22:38:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just be careful, these types of snails are very addicting!  I started with one - which I intended to feed to my turtle LOL  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please come visit the snail forum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ithis means I have to get a few to add to the tank and pond ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5584 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I happen to be an "old fogy" also. I need all the previous messages in order to keep tract of the thread. I am a member of soo many aquarium groups I have at least 300 messages every day.What I would like is for folks to put something in the subject line that would indicant a direct response.That way I'm not checking every post to see who responded to my post. Just a word change or name would help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This snipping thing Is I'm afraid getting this old brain a little confused, you say you have snipped this post of yours yet it still has Erin's and my messages attached on my screen !, I always thought that yahoo automatically linked all messages with the same subject line. All I've ever done is used the reply button and written my post, then it always shows up with all the previous posts on that subject shown below it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On rereading I see that you have indeed removed a couple of the original posts on the subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Please enlighten a not very computer competent old fogy, is it something like select and delete ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wow, I snipped this message, and I didn't have to change the subject at all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Fancy that!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Simply trimming off text from the original does not necessitate changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, if a thread has gotten off topic, I might change the subject to be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              appropriate, but only then, and I'd keep the original subject in there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi again Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I probably wasn't quite clear in my first reply, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              'snip' the posts as you put it the poster would need to change the subject
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              line every time which would  make matters even worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would also like to say that the later part of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              post is worded in such a way that would start a lot of the infighting in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5585 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the reply, I am also a member of many fishy groups although I don't quite get that many though it is normally around 200 I can see the other point of view, but I don't quite understand why these people opt for daily digests, why don't they reed on line then they can reed or not reed whatever thy want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           While I'm on perhaps you can answer another question for me why does this group not list the names and contact details of the owner and the moderators ? I did at one point last week consider asking for intervention but could not find any names or contacts, most of the other groups I am in list the owners, managers and moderators and usually have a search facility to locate members on the member list!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I happen to be an "old fogy" also. I need all the previous messages in order to keep tract of the thread. I am a member of soo many aquarium groups I have at least 300 messages every day.What I would like is for folks to put something in the subject line that would indicant a direct response.That way I'm not checking every post to see who responded to my post. Just a word change or name would help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Norman. S. Hampson." <normnam2000@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This snipping thing Is I'm afraid getting this old brain a little confused, you say you have snipped this post of yours yet it still has Erin's and my messages attached on my screen !, I always thought that yahoo automatically linked all messages with the same subject line. All I've ever done is used the reply button and written my post, then it always shows up with all the previous posts on that subject shown below it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On rereading I see that you have indeed removed a couple of the original posts on the subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Please enlighten a not very computer competent old fogy, is it something like select and delete ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wow, I snipped this message, and I didn't have to change the subject at all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Fancy that!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Simply trimming off text from the original does not necessitate changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, if a thread has gotten off topic, I might change the subject to be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              appropriate, but only then, and I'd keep the original subject in there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi again Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I probably wasn't quite clear in my first reply, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              'snip' the posts as you put it the poster would need to change the subject
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              line every time which would  make matters even worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would also like to say that the later part of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              post is worded in such a way that would start a lot of the infighting in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           unclenorm



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5586 From: Steve Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I use a mail reader that collects mail from 8 accounts, but it works the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              same for the two online only accounts I have, as well as when I access any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the other accounts I have over the web. I hit the reply button and write
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my reply. I write my reply, referring, when necessary, to the text of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              original message, which normally appears under the reply I am writing. Then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              depending on the etiquette of the list, I'll either hit send, or scroll down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and snip off irrelevant parts of the original post (select and delete). When
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do so, I'll note it by using something like this:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [Text above this line.]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>---------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [indicates deleted text below this line]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [indicated the end of the clipped portion should the text continue]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ---------------------<unsnip>-------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [Continued text below this line]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There are cases, however, when I will take relevant pieces of the post and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              include them in the body of my reply, then cut off the original post.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I normally sort my mail by subject, which keeps all messages with the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject line together, and makes it easier to follow the various threads on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the lists. However, when I access my mail via the web, there are some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              webmail programs that do not offer this option, which makes it more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              difficult to follow threads. People may sort their mail based on other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              criteria. In these instances, I think it is important to put your reply in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              context somehow. Including at least portions of the original helps in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 4:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This snipping thing Is I'm afraid getting this old brain a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little confused, you say you have snipped this post of yours yet it still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              has Erin's and my messages attached on my screen !, I always thought that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yahoo automatically linked all messages with the same subject line. All I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ever done is used the reply button and written my post, then it always shows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              up with all the previous posts on that subject shown below it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On rereading I see that you have indeed removed a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the original posts on the subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please enlighten a not very computer competent old fogy, is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              something like select and delete ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wow, I snipped this message, and I didn't have to change the subject at all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Fancy that!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Simply trimming off text from the original does not necessitate changing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, if a thread has gotten off topic, I might change the subject to be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              appropriate, but only then, and I'd keep the original subject in there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi again Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I probably wasn't quite clear in my first reply, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              'snip' the posts as you put it the poster would need to change the subject
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              line every time which would make matters even worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would also like to say that the later part of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              post is worded in such a way that would start a lot of the infighting in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin VanKouwenberg <celticmama78@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've tried subtly mentioning this, and been ignored. This is more of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              problem when two members are getting nasty about "debating" back and forth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it gets very irritating nonetheless. Many of us are on daily digest ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in fact, it's recommended that we go that way on the group's main page. So,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in consideration of this fact, could I ask that y'all PLEASE snip your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              posts?? I'm frankly tired of having to scroll for aeons because people are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replying back and forth and leaving the original posts, in their entirety,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              below their email. Headers, signature lines, yahoo ads, and all. I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              scroll through several original messages that have been replied to just to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get to the next new message. I can't be the only person that has complained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about this ... in fact I know that I'm NOT because it was mentioned in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              last digest I got.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>------------------------------










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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5587 From: Steve Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From the home page of this group, but the address format is the same for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo groups:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              List owner: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-owner@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This group does not allow access to the membership list, but those that do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              show the listing of the owner and moderators, if any, with a colored star
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              indicator (blue for owner, yellow for moderator).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the reply, I am also a member of many fishy groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              although I don't quite get that many though it is normally around 200 I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              see the other point of view, but I don't quite understand why these people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              opt for daily digests, why don't they reed on line then they can reed or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              reed whatever thy want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              While I'm on perhaps you can answer another question for me why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              does this group not list the names and contact details of the owner and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              moderators ? I did at one point last week consider asking for intervention
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but could not find any names or contacts, most of the other groups I am in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              list the owners, managers and moderators and usually have a search facility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to locate members on the member list!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I happen to be an "old fogy" also. I need all the previous messages in order
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to keep tract of the thread. I am a member of soo many aquarium groups I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have at least 300 messages every day.What I would like is for folks to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              something in the subject line that would indicant a direct response.That way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not checking every post to see who responded to my post. Just a word
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              change or name would help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----------------------<snip>-----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5588 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS PLEASE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I've got the idea,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Norman,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I use a mail reader that collects mail from 8 accounts, but it works the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              same for the two online only accounts I have, as well as when I access any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the other accounts I have over the web. I hit the reply button and write
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my reply. I write my reply, referring, when necessary, to the text of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              original message, which normally appears under the reply I am writing. Then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              depending on the etiquette of the list, I'll either hit send, or scroll down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and snip off irrelevant parts of the original post (select and delete). When
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do so, I'll note it by using something like this:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [Text above this line.]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----------------------<snip>---------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [indicates deleted text below this line]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [indicated the end of the clipped portion should the text continue]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ---------------------<unsnip>-------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [Continued text below this line]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There are cases, however, when I will take relevant pieces of the post and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              include them in the body of my reply, then cut off the original post.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I normally sort my mail by subject, which keeps all messages with the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              subject line together, and makes it easier to follow the various threads on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the lists. However, when I access my mail via the web, there are some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              webmail programs that do not offer this option, which makes it more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              difficult to follow threads. People may sort their mail based on other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              criteria. In these instances, I think it is important to put your reply in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              context somehow. Including at least portions of the original helps in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              .

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//










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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5589 From: Elyse Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would like to join too.  My beautiful snails are my new obsession!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please let me know the name of the group!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.elyserachel.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ripley’s page: http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=36163&PHPSESSID=a31b48870c2930ff2c6371860fc80d5d

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MSN: ElyseRachel@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo: ElyseRachel@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Chihuahua Rescue and Transport (CRT):
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.chihuahua-rescue.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.petfinder.com


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 3:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We have joined the applesnail forum

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Regards

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony in the UK

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              100 Litre Tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, ain't they cute!!!....lol)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              30 Litre Biorb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              19 Litre waterholme.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: 09/24/04 22:38:00

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just be careful, these types of snails are very addicting!  I started with one - which I intended to feed to my turtle LOL  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please come visit the snail forum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ithis means I have to get a few to add to the tank and pond ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5590 From: Elyse Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: JD/Oscar

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A SINGLE Oscar needs at minimum a 55 gallon tank to itself.  They grow LARGE and FAST!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A JD could go in something a bit smaller, but anything less than a 45 would be too small.  Again, if u want to keep more than one you will need more gallons.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.elyserachel.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ripley’s page: http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=36163&PHPSESSID=a31b48870c2930ff2c6371860fc80d5d

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MSN: ElyseRachel@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo: ElyseRachel@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Chihuahua Rescue and Transport (CRT):
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.chihuahua-rescue.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.petfinder.com


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 1:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com ; aquaria-freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] JD/Oscar

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What would you suggest as minimum tank size for either a JD or an oscar?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5591 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I understand, and do not buy decorative shells from stores. But I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have a collection of shells found on a beach (empty when we found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them) that we thought we might put into the tanks. Are the shells
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              too dense for the living snails to utilize the calcium?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5592 From: bryants4god Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help with sexing Apple Snails!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              www.applesnail.net  come check it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Elyse [mailto:elyse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 7:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help with sexing Apple Snails!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would like to join too.  My beautiful snails are my new obsession!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Please let me know the name of the group!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5593 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Greetings and Good morning Cynthia,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All shell collectors started at the same spot, finding shells on the beach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They are not perfect at all but that's not a concern as you have the joy of finding a neat shell.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But soon you find better shells and can see more of  their beauty and color, then comes the pinnacle moment, a fresh shell that hasn't been tossed about on the beach, now you are hooked. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Anyways, even serious collectors still search the beaches especially after a storm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well I happy to hear you like your collection and hope you keep collecting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As for their structure being soft enough to transfer calcium into the water, not really. , it's the crushed corals and shells that can shed calcium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But please use that coral sand if you haven't already , it has a good transfer rate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5594 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well if you have your own list in yahoogroups you have privlidge such as members searches even in lists that you are not the owner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I found this trick when a list owner gave me some problems and I needed to "check this move" .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MJB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From the home page of this group, but the address format is the same for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo groups:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              List owner:       FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-owner@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This group does not allow access to the membership list, but those that do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              show the listing of the owner and moderators, if any, with a colored star
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              indicator (blue for owner, yellow for moderator).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Norman. S. Hampson. [mailto:normnam2000@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: SNIP POSTS /uncle Norm


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the reply, I am also a member of many fishy groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              although I don't quite get that many though it is normally around 200 I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              see the other point of view, but I don't quite understand why these people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              opt for daily digests, why don't they reed on line then they can reed or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              reed whatever thy want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           While I'm on perhaps you can answer another question for me why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              does this group not list the names and contact details of the owner and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              moderators ? I did at one point last week consider asking for intervention
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but could not find any names or contacts, most of the other groups I am in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              list the owners, managers and moderators and usually have a search facility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to locate members on the member list!.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      unclenorm.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I happen to be an "old fogy" also. I need all the previous messages in order
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to keep tract of the thread. I am a member of soo many aquarium groups I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have at least 300 messages every day.What I would like is for folks to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              something in the subject line that would indicant a direct response.That way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not checking every post to see who responded to my post. Just a word
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              change or name would help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -----------------------<snip>-----------------------



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5595 From: Aaron Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: aquapet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              where are you guys moving to?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Aquapet in livermore CA is moving locations and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > selling the existing tanks very very cheap. ... the owner wants to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              start up the new location
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with all new tanks and filtration systems, as well as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > expanding the salt water and pond sections.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5596 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Was: Bioloads and pH Now:Snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > But please use that coral sand if you haven't already , it has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > transfer rate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thank you, I'll take your advice. Right now the only snails we have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are thos itty bitty ones that multiply like mad. I squish them on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the side of the tank for the fish, who love their special treat. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would like to get some of the more decorative snails, so I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              make sure to get coral sand before I get them to prevent problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              from the get-go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5597 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 418
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There is a great forum for Puffers... I'll include the link, and a link to a few threads.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you know the scientific name?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Most puffers will outgrow a 10 gallon, and pretty much all puffers are aggressive-to their own kind and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have dwarf puffers currently. I have plans to get Figure 8s (which are brackish), but that's when I have money for the tank! :) My LFS just got in some new freshwater puffers


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.thepufferforum.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BrackishSubWebIndex/fwbracpuffers.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5598 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              55 GALLONS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 12:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] JD/Oscar

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What would you suggest as minimum tank size for either a JD or an oscar?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5599 From: Robb Rouse Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              50 G's they get pretty big.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 12:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] JD/Oscar

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What would you suggest as minimum tank size for either a JD or an oscar?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5600 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: names of mods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              if you go to the members list, the mods have stars net to their names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Sep 25, 2004, at 5:03 AM, Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > why does this group not list the names and contact details of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > owner and the moderators ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5601 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Snipped posts, digests, moderator help. To all members.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good afternoon everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would like to address some concerns that I have been reading about. Sometimes the best way to understand why someone does something is to look at things Thur their eyes. This is just my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Digests- Excellent way for a busy family to keep track of their favorite group. All the posts are in one neat package. Digests came about when Yahoo had smaller limits on their free mail service. Folks were "bouncing" if they didn't check their mail daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Snipped posts- My senior moments are occurring with alarming frequency. I like the previous posts attached. When I check my mail (at 2:00 am) I could have 300 messages all aquarium related from a bunch of groups. The previous post allows me to keep track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Moderator access- It is true that the members list cannot be accessed by members. This is done on purpose. This group is very active. That's good. but what you don't see is what goes on behind the scenes. This week I have refused messages from a porn group, a mortgage refinance group, and someone talking about their fathers philosophy about money??? Moderators and owners have lives too. We are not going to open ourselves up to a constant bombardment of e-mails nor we allow it to happen to our members. An active group can get out of hand quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I check my mail at 2:00 am, 8:00 am, and 12:00 pm. If you need my help please don't keep replying to the same post without changing the subject line. I don't read every post. So your concerns could be in a post with a subject line like snails." Moderator help" in the subject line will get an immediate response.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The purpose of this group is to provide a friendly forum to talk about a hobby that offers relaxation, maybe an escape from daily pressures, possible a learning experience for children. Folks need to feel comfortable about asking questions even when they think the question is dumb. WITHOUT BEING CRITICIZED. The only dumb question is the one that is never asked. How else could we possible learn anything and grow?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Your moderator  


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5602 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: My mistake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All members now have access to the members section. Please don't misuse it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5603 From: Julie Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Thank you Harry and snipped posts (my .02)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was a moderator on a group for a short time, and have been on a couple of unmoderated groups (not for long!)    I have to thank Harry (and any other moderators) for his (their) hard work.  It is so nice to not deal with the the cr*p that you can get when no-one is filtering the messages.  The spam concerning porn, money, pharmaceutical enhancement of various body parts, politics and religion get annoying most of the time and down right infuriating sometimes.  OTOH, it is nice that we are allowed to speak our minds, even if the ower/moderator agrees with it.  There are alot of mini-dictatorships out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as snipped posts, I personally prefer that all but a couple of relevant lines be snipped.  However, if you aren't going to snip the majority of the post, please at least, snip the stuff Yahoo tacks on to the end.  The ads and the footers.  I don't like having to scroll through the same unsub/how to post info 3 and 4 times in the same message.  Thank you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Snipped posts- My senior moments are occurring with alarming frequency. I like the previous posts attached. When I check my mail (at 2:00 am) I could have 300 messages all aquarium related from a bunch of groups. The previous post allows me to keep track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <snip>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               This week I have refused messages from a porn group, a mortgage refinance group, and someone talking about their fathers philosophy about money??? Moderators and owners have lives too. We are not going to open ourselves up to a constant bombardment of e-mails nor we allow it to happen to our members. An active group can get out of hand quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5604 From: harry perry Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Thank you Harry /To Julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dear Julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You made my day. Thank you so much for your support. It seems that everything worth having  has a price. The crap we wade thru is the price we pay for a free society. I'll deal with the crap you folks enjoy the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Harry  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Julie <jaramey@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was a moderator on a group for a short time, and have been on a couple of unmoderated groups (not for long!)    I have to thank Harry (and any other moderators) for his (their) hard work.  It is so nice to not deal with the the cr*p that you can get when no-one is filtering the messages.  The spam concerning porn, money, pharmaceutical enhancement of various body parts, politics and religion get annoying most of the time and down right infuriating sometimes.  OTOH, it is nice that we are allowed to speak our minds, even if the ower/moderator agrees with it.  There are alot of mini-dictatorships out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as snipped posts, I personally prefer that all but a couple of relevant lines be snipped.  However, if you aren't going to snip the majority of the post, please at least, snip the stuff Yahoo tacks on to the end.  The ads and the footers.  I don't like having to scroll through the same unsub/how to post info 3 and 4 times in the same message.  Thank you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Snipped posts- My senior moments are occurring with alarming frequency. I like the previous posts attached. When I check my mail (at 2:00 am) I could have 300 messages all aquarium related from a bunch of groups. The previous post allows me to keep track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <snip>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               This week I have refused messages from a porn group, a mortgage refinance group, and someone talking about their fathers philosophy about money??? Moderators and owners have lives too. We are not going to open ourselves up to a constant bombardment of e-mails nor we allow it to happen to our members. An active group can get out of hand quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5605 From: paul helms Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: aquapet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              we are trying to stay in livermore, and are currnetly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              looking at several buildings. our landlords are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              raising rent 40% while the rest of town is lowering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              rent. it is a small space which is hidden, and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              worth what we are currently paying, let alone anothner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              40%, but i will post a new address asap. until then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              we are just selling off tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > where are you guys moving to?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Aquapet in livermore CA is moving locations and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > selling the existing tanks very very cheap. ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the owner wants to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > start up the new location
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > with all new tanks and filtration systems, as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > expanding the salt water and pond sections.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5606 From: paul helms Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: JD/Oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              55- 75 gallon min.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Dan & Theresa <dtmergl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > What would you suggest as minimum tank size for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > either a JD or an oscar?




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5607 From: paul helms Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: aquapet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i am not sure when you posted, as i have a few hundred
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              e mails at the moment, but if you come on sunday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              introduce yourself, i will be there sun, mon, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tues.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I will swing by and see what's left tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks for posting this info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mike in Pleasanton
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5608 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: names of mods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi amalthea23,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I know that's normal practise in most groups, but this group seams to keep even the members list secret and no member tools either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              if you go to the members list, the mods have stars net to their names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Sep 25, 2004, at 5:03 AM, Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > why does this group not list the names and contact details of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > owner and the moderators ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Adornments....



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5609 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: names of mods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i think that's been lifted now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Sep 25, 2004, at 9:30 PM, Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi amalthea23,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >                       I know that's normal practise in most groups,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but this group seams to keep even the members list secret and no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > member tools either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >                   unclenorm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > if you go to the members list, the mods have stars net to their names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > On Sep 25, 2004, at 5:03 AM, Norman. S. Hampson. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > why does this group not list the names and contact details of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > owner and the moderators ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Adornments....
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5610 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Peat filtered water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I just have a question for those out there using peat filtered water. Has anyone had there pH go up using it. I was running peat on water to be used for my tank. The tap water was pH 6.4 and gH of 8 kH of 9, well after running the water through peat the gH was 5 and kH 4 but the pH is now around 7.6. Any thoughts on this. On a side note something is up with my tap water. Till last couple of weeks my tap has always had a pH of 8 and gH of 12. I'm figuring all the rain from hurricanes has thrown this off as my water is well water from shallow well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5611 From: paul helms Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Peat filtered water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a shallow well will have frequent changes in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chemisry, as the water entering it has not been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filtered well through different layers of soil. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              very likely that you have already discerned the cause,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and you should test it frequently for this reason.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Jonathan Hartsoe <jhartsoe@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I just have a question for those out there using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > peat filtered water. Has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > anyone had there pH go up using it. I was running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > peat on water to be used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for my tank. The tap water was pH 6.4 and gH of 8 kH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of 9, well after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > running the water through peat the gH was 5 and kH 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but the pH is now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > around 7.6. Any thoughts on this. On a side note
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > something is up with my tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water. Till last couple of weeks my tap has always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > had a pH of 8 and gH of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 12. I'm figuring all the rain from hurricanes has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thrown this off as my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water is well water from shallow well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5612 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Peat filtered water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Peat should actually lower the ph...peat moss is usually right around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3 or four on the ph scale. However, if you are using peat from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              garden store, make sure it has not been treated with lime or another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              neutralizer to raise the PH


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5613 From: harry perry Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Peat filtered water/careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I used peat moss in my first tank. Sterilized, from my lfs. 9.00 for a couple handfuls. Expensive? not really. I run whisper filters and put the peat in the bag with the charcoal. I also wrapped a Madagascar lace bulb in peat and it bloomed. My second adventure I thought I would save money and I used peat from a garden supply. 5 dead fish later I learned my lesson. My third adventure, I put sterilized peat in my substrate, covered with gravel. Every time I tried to plant something the peat was released into the water. I eventually had to break down the tank. The moral of the story, use sterilized peat and find a way to control it. (in a bag of some sort) A woman's stocking could work as a bag.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a shallow well will have frequent changes in water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chemisry, as the water entering it has not been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filtered well through different layers of soil.  it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              very likely that you have already discerned the cause,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and you should test it frequently for this reason.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Jonathan Hartsoe <jhartsoe@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I just have a question for those out there using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > peat filtered water. Has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > anyone had there pH go up using it. I was running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > peat on water to be used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for my tank. The tap water was pH 6.4 and gH of 8 kH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of 9, well after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > running the water through peat the gH was 5 and kH 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but the pH is now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > around 7.6. Any thoughts on this. On a side note
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > something is up with my tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water. Till last couple of weeks my tap has always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > had a pH of 8 and gH of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 12. I'm figuring all the rain from hurricanes has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thrown this off as my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water is well water from shallow well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5614 From: helen572 Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: S. A. cichlids: How many convicts okay for a 20-gallon long?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have three convicts in a 20-gallon long; one (the first we had) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about 3 1/2 inches long, the other two smaller ones are about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              inches. The larger one is chasing the other two around the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              intermittently. We've provided hidey-holes and plants throughout the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank. The two smaller ones seem okay -- no sign of nipped fins -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              we were wondering if it would help to add one or two (more?) convicts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              or other S.A. cichlid (other species?) If so, should they be as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              as our bully, or smaller, or does it matter? Seems to me I read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              somewhere that if you have a large group, they don't pick on each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other because they're too busy looking out for themselves. (Safety
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in numbers, I suppose is the theory.) When we got the two new guys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              at the aquarium store, I noticed there were at least a dozen convicts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in one 20-gallon tank and they weren't chasing and picking on each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5615 From: Steve Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part VII
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last week we talked some about substrates and aquascaping. this week, I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pass along some words on lighting. Lighting becomes very important if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are using live plants. It is not very important if you have a tank with just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish and non-living decor. The fish will do fine with ambient lighting, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you would only need additional lighting to view the fish from across the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              room. Depending on the light, your fish may appear better or worse. Each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              light has its own color temperature, which is a measurement about how it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              matches up with the sun in showing certain colors. Some lights will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              emphasize certain colors over others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Let's take a look at the types of lamps that are available for aquarium use.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not often used today, but a mainstay many years ago is the incandescent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lamp. This is a plain tungsten bulb, similar to the ones used in your home,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but usually found in a tube shape. The biggest problem with these bulbs is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the amount of heat they produce, often enough to overheat a small aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They also have a relatively short life compared to other bulbs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The kind of lamp used most today in aquaria are the fluorescent lamps. These
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are available in many sizes and types, some of which I will mention in other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sections below. You can get fluorescents in many color temperatures, one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              which will suit your needs. They also produce more light per watt than do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              incandescent, and they do not run as hot as the incandescent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not often used in freshwater aquaria, but available are VHO fluorescents.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The "VHO" stands for "very high output". What this means, in practical terms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is that special equipment is used to produce about twice the light output of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a normal fluorescent lamp of similar size. They do produce more heat than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              normal fluorescents, though there is equipment available that helps these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lamps run cooler. These lamps will also need to be replaced more often than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              regular fluorescents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Power compact fluorescent lamps are a relatively new innovation. A much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              smaller lamp has the same or a greater output as do larger regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fluorescents. They do require somewhat more electricity to run, and you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              actually use more of them to light the aquarium as fully as a long regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fluorescent does. However, they do also seem to hold their color temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              better and last longer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Finally we come to the metal halides. These are expensive to purchase and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              operate. They do generate a large amount of heat, and, for best results will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              probably need to be suspended above the aquarium due to the light output and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the heat created when they are operating. However, they probably produce the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              best light for your plants than any of the other types of lights mentioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              How much light is enough? That is a perennial question, and one that has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              many answers. Typically we speak of watts per gallon, and that is generally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thought to be in the 2-5 watt range. However, given the various outputs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the types of lamps discussed above, that is really not enough to go by,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              though it does make for a good, and easy to remember rule of thumb. For a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish only tank, it is probably sufficient. However, when one realizes how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              much light will actually reach the bottom of the tank, in a planted tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              this rule may not be enough. More recent thought gives credence to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              measurement of light output.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Light output is measured in lumens. This is a measure of light intensity. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you use a light meter to measure a light near the source, then again from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              some distance away, you will note a decrease in the measurement. There is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              also another measurement, and that is lux, which is the amount of light from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              all sources hitting a surface. So far as I am aware right now, there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              agreement as to which measurement to use or what that should be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Color temperature, as mentioned above, is important in a planted tank. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you are going to be growing live plants, either use a bulb or bulbs with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              color temperature of 5000^o or bulbs specifically designed for growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plants. The problem with the plant lights, is that the color range will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              enhance certain colors in the fish, which may be pleasing for some, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Finally, the question is how long should I leave the lights on. For a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              planted tank, 10-12 hours is recommended. This will strike a balance between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              allowing plants to grow and finding a tank full of algae one day. If you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have a fish only tank, light when viewing the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As usual, questions, comments and brick-a-brack thrown are welcome.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5616 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a crawdad, that was caught at a lake and I've had him about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              month he's only been eating flake fish food because I have feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              guppies as pets and can't handle feeding them to him. Is there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other live stuff I can feed him I'm sure he needs some live food in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              his diet. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5617 From: paul helms Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              feeder goldfish, sinking carnivore pellets, frozen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              krill, frosen silver sides, basically anything that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              not people food, although i have raised them and bred
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them on preservative free ham for a biology class.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a crawdad, that was caught at a lake and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I've had him about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > month he's only been eating flake fish food because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > guppies as pets and can't handle feeding them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > him. Is there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > other live stuff I can feed him I'm sure he needs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > some live food in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > his diet. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5618 From: paul helms Date: 9/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: S. A. cichlids: How many convicts okay for a 20-gallon long?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              more may or may not help, try moving your rock scapes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              around occasionally to keep them busy exploring. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              small guys can definately hold their own, ounce for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ounce they are one of the toughest fish around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- helen572 <shirley345@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have three convicts in a 20-gallon long; one (the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > first we had) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > about 3 1/2 inches long, the other two smaller ones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > inches. The larger one is chasing the other two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > around the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > intermittently. We've provided hidey-holes and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plants throughout the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank. The two smaller ones seem okay -- no sign of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nipped fins -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > we were wondering if it would help to add one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (more?) convicts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or other S.A. cichlid (other species?) If so,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > should they be as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as our bully, or smaller, or does it matter? Seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to me I read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > somewhere that if you have a large group, they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > pick on each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > other because they're too busy looking out for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > themselves. (Safety
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in numbers, I suppose is the theory.) When we got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the two new guys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > at the aquarium store, I noticed there were at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a dozen convicts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in one 20-gallon tank and they weren't chasing and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > picking on each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5619 From: gir_the_hobbit Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Introductions!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi, Im new here! I'm Gir, I own many fish, black skirt tetras, tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              barbs, a pleco, 2 red bellied pacus, and 3 bettas (all 3 are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              seperated, mind you ;)) at the moment, the 2 Pacus have screwed up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the seal on their tank, so I had to move them and reseal the whole
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              dang thing!! *falls over*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Gir
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5620 From: gail_stanwyck Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: HELP with new 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am hoping that some of you can help me out! I am a teacher, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I just bought a 10 gallon aquarium for my classroom. I followed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the directions from the pet store, but I can tell I am doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              something wrong, and I am totally confused. The store didn't give me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              very good directions it turns out. I went back to the pet store, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they were not helpful at all! Here's the info, hope you can help, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am completely new to this!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We let the water filter in the tank w/heater etc... for a week before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              introducing fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Added water conditioner to the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Started with 4 fish: 2 White Fin Tetra, 2 Zebra Striped Daneos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Tetra died within a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Tetra has white spots and isn't doing well (ich I think)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Daneos are just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Feeding them once a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here's the first part where we are confused: The "fish guy" at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pet store said not to clean the tank for a month. Are we supposed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              be adding new water or cycling new water? Some people have said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              there is something we can add to the tank to help with the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cycle, but the pet store said no, we don't need that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Used the water testing kit, results are confusing. Says that Ph is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about 7.8 (ish), Nitrates are almost non-existent, amonia etc...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Since the Tetra wasn't doing well, we took a sample of the water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the pet store where we bought the fish. They tested the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              said that our Ph was WAY too high, and told us to add a chemical that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              would lower the Ph in the tank, not to worry about nitrites/nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              until we got the Ph under control. We have just added the Ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lowering chemical this evening, and now have our fingers crossed for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              our poor little tetra.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've been researching on the web, and am still confused by what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exactly is the right thing to do to get this tank started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              successfully and maintained well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I hope someone can give me a step-by-step "aquarium for dummies"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              explanantion!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5621 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Aw don't worry, I've seen them living in the worse of conditions. Do beware, they can easily take sleeping fish that lay on the bottom. I usually tie their claws closed so they don't eat my gourami's , WAIT, don't yell yet, if they can't use their claws they use their front legs that have tiny claws and balance on the back two sets.... Did you know there are some 200 speices of them living here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a crawdad, that was caught at a lake and I've had him about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              month he's only been eating flake fish food because I have feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              guppies as pets and can't handle feeding them to him. Is there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other live stuff I can feed him I'm sure he needs some live food in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              his diet. Thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5622 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 10/1/2004, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Friday October 1, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.sfaquarium.org/about.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We meet the first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Founded in 1923, the San Francisco Aquarium Society is regarded as one of the nation's esteemed aquarium hobbyist organizations.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5623 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think I'll try some rosabora or belly or something like that there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little feeder fish too since I've had feeder goldfish as pets too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hehehe thanks for the options though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > feeder goldfish, sinking carnivore pellets, frozen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > krill, frosen silver sides, basically anything that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > not people food, although i have raised them and bred
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > them on preservative free ham for a biology class.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5624 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah he is actually in a little tank on his own, because I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              endlers, goldfish, feeder guppies and 6 catfish and I'm afraid he'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              eat them since they swim very slow while sleepy time. I'd be afraid to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get snipped trying to tie the claws how did you do it with out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other claw pinching you. I didn't know there was that many species, he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is a kansas species of some sort he killed the other one that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little littler. I at one time had some from a creek that where tiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tiny but they all died with in like to days but the catfish from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              same creek are still alive and getting big about a little over a inch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              very neat to watch them eat.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Aw don't worry, I've seen them living in the worse of conditions. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > beware, they can easily take sleeping fish that lay on the bottom. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > usually tie their claws closed so they don't eat my gourami's , WAIT,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't yell yet, if they can't use their claws they use their front legs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that have tiny claws and balance on the back two sets.... Did you know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there are some 200 speices of them living here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5625 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 9/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: crypt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              does anybody have any experience on the cryptocoryne spp. in a low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              light brackish environment? or maybe just comment on this species. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              read that they do well in brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BrackishSubWebIndex/bracplants.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ryan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5626 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: HELP with new 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first hthing is first, the store is telling you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              everything backwards. there should be no fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you plan to keep in the tank for 4-6 weeks. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the cycling period. some people do it with fish, some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              do it with bacteria only, and some people use ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in some form or another. the danios have survived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              because they are less succeptable to the poor water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              conditions. they are a gold water fish, liek guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and goldfish, making them more resistant. basically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the fish are just polluting the tank and killing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              themselves right now. if you are cycling the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you have to do water changes or you will see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              results that you are getting now. the nitrites and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nitrates should be the main concern, not the ph unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it is above 8.5 or below 6. you can chalk it up to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              inexperienced people advising you, which happens at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lot of fish stores. what ever you do, don't get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              discouraged. if there is a small non-chain pet store,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they are usually better trained, and the people on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              this group are always willing to help. there are some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              strong opinions in here, but remember that each tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is a different ecosystem. this means that the basic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              principles will be the same, but everyone has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              different choice methods that work with their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chemistry. just try to weed through and see who makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the most sense to you. wish you the best of luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- gail_stanwyck <silvespoon@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I am hoping that some of you can help me out! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > am a teacher, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I just bought a 10 gallon aquarium for my classroom.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I followed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of the directions from the pet store, but I can tell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I am doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > something wrong, and I am totally confused. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > store didn't give me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > very good directions it turns out. I went back to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the pet store, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they were not helpful at all! Here's the info, hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you can help, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I am completely new to this!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > We let the water filter in the tank w/heater etc...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for a week before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > introducing fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Added water conditioner to the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Started with 4 fish: 2 White Fin Tetra, 2 Zebra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Striped Daneos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1 Tetra died within a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1 Tetra has white spots and isn't doing well (ich I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > think)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Daneos are just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Feeding them once a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Here's the first part where we are confused: The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "fish guy" at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > pet store said not to clean the tank for a month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Are we supposed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > be adding new water or cycling new water? Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > people have said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there is something we can add to the tank to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with the nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cycle, but the pet store said no, we don't need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Used the water testing kit, results are confusing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Says that Ph is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > about 7.8 (ish), Nitrates are almost non-existent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > amonia etc...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Since the Tetra wasn't doing well, we took a sample
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of the water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the pet store where we bought the fish. They tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > said that our Ph was WAY too high, and told us to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > add a chemical that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > would lower the Ph in the tank, not to worry about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nitrites/nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > until we got the Ph under control. We have just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > added the Ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > lowering chemical this evening, and now have our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fingers crossed for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > our poor little tetra.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I've been researching on the web, and am still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > confused by what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > exactly is the right thing to do to get this tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > successfully and maintained well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I hope someone can give me a step-by-step "aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for dummies"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > explanantion!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5627 From: shortlid Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Hatchet about to get the axe!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ammonia is finally under control so I added the three Cory's I wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to help keep the tank clean. Well two of them are happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              energetic but the third just hug around the bottom and died a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              later. So, I returned him to the locally owned pet store and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              checks my water and said it was good with just SLIGHTLY high Ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but nothing huge. She said it could be from adding the three Cory's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a day ago. She said she would give me another fish. I chose a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hatchet Fish cause she said they are OK solitary. Well from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              moment I put it in the tank, everything is chasing it!! The Tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the Danios, now it is hanging abound the bottom of the tank where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              know it is not suppose to be cause it is a top dweller??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5628 From: shortlid Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Air Pump good idea for Whisper Power filter?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I know most people say a Whisper Power filter does not get enough air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to be as effective as a bio wheel. Would adding a air pump and a air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              stone help the bacteria in the Whisper filter convert more Ammonia??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Could I put the stone right in the filter box??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5629 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Hatchet about to get the axe!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              well i think our lady wasnt right.. i have 2 hatchet fish originally 3 but one died.. and they love each other and i know if one dies the other will go shortly cuase they are usually by themselves and need eachother at the bare least... i was afraid to add another or 2 becuase they seeem to do so well together and didnt watn to add a problem... anyhow i would get atleast 2 more and quick i have never seen any of my corys or tetras or anythign chase mine.. however when my rosy barb was ill everythign in the tank was attacking it so i took it out and it died.. so im thinking maybe something might be wrong with the fish how is it swimming if at all... ambye you need to exchange that fish as well.. hope something helps let us know what hapens.. shanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ammonia is finally under control so I added the three Cory's I wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to help keep the tank clean.  Well two of them are happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              energetic but the third just hug around the bottom and died a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              later.  So, I returned him to the locally owned pet store and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              checks my water and said it was good with just SLIGHTLY high Ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but nothing huge.  She said it could be from adding the three Cory's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a day ago.  She said she would give me another fish.  I chose a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hatchet Fish cause she said they are OK solitary.  Well from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              moment I put it in the tank, everything is chasing it!!  The Tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the Danios, now it is hanging abound the bottom of the tank where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              know it is not suppose to be cause it is a top dweller?? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5630 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: snails in cycling tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, it seems that some little snails came riding in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              internet order of plants. I just noticed them in my cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave them in there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wasn't planning on having snails, but since they are here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              don't want to kill them!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also...I want to double check with you experts. Do I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my ammonia and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              zero?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5631 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Air Pump good idea for Whisper Power filter?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the whisoer is not a biologic filetr like a biowheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              generally you would use a ug filter along with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              whisper. you need threee types in any tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mechanical (moves water), chemical (carbon), and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              biologic (wheel or ug). if youleave the carbon in for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              more thana month it will become a biologic filter, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will not be as effective as the biowheel, but there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              no way to make those two filters equalin that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              capacity. they are just engineered to do different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              jobs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I know most people say a Whisper Power filter does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > not get enough air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to be as effective as a bio wheel. Would adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > air pump and a air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > stone help the bacteria in the Whisper filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > convert more Ammonia??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Could I put the stone right in the filter box??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5632 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Hatchet about to get the axe!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              danios are semi agressive and tend to chase other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              if they are not in large groups, and the tetras can do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the same. the hatchet are very peaceful, while they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              do ok on their own, they are like cori's and do better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in groups.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia is finally under control so I added the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > three Cory's I wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to help keep the tank clean. Well two of them are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > energetic but the third just hug around the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and died a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > later. So, I returned him to the locally owned pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > store and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > checks my water and said it was good with just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > SLIGHTLY high Ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but nothing huge. She said it could be from adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the three Cory's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a day ago. She said she would give me another fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I chose a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hatchet Fish cause she said they are OK solitary.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Well from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > moment I put it in the tank, everything is chasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it!! The Tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the Danios, now it is hanging abound the bottom of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the tank where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > know it is not suppose to be cause it is a top
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dweller??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5633 From: Bubbles Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Fish Question...Can someone help ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have 3 Aquariums at home however 2 of the Aquariums seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filled with healthy fish and the 3rd aqarium doesn't seem that way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why is that ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Fish (GOLD FISH) seem to have holes in their stomachs..and we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have no idea where these holes could be from ....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Could they be wanting to eat each other ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Their skin seems kind of scrapey often times..We took the water to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tested and we were told the water is fine...so what would be wrong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with the fish if they have these holes in their stomach ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              First i thought thats from swallowing the rocks on the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aquarium but now we dunno..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              HELP please ? :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Bubbles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5634 From: Aaron Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Light source for freshwater planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: "kacee" <kaceew33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:48am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Light source for freshwater planted tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi! I have a 29 gallon freshwater tank with 5 tetras 1 platy and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pleco. It has been set up for over 3 years now and about 3 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ago I added live plants to it. It seems that at first my plants did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              great but now they are starting to lose leaves and look sickly. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              am new to the fresh water planted tanks and would like to know if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have to have a special lighting system, filtration, and substrat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Any help is greatly welcomed. Thank you all and I am looking forward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to being a part of the group!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5635 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I pin the crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip, repeat for other side. When dry this stuff is much stronger than thin setting CA glue and is solid at hobby shops. When the crayfish molts you will have to repeat BUT only a few days after molt so the Exoskeleton is hardened

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This glue should be used with the following?:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Safety Glasses or , and a face shield
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Rubber Gloves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mineral Oil ( to separate items [fingers, *eyes*] that we accidentally glued together)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              adequate air circulation

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              *as with all accidental eye contanct of injury place your hand about 5 inches from face, don't move your eyes off a spot on your hand so as not to cause tearing or puncture. Don't move the eyes about, call for help so a person can take you to the ER without you moving your eyes.. Try not to blink as much as possible.*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah he is actually in a little tank on his own, because I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              endlers, goldfish, feeder guppies and 6 catfish and I'm afraid he'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              eat them since they swim very slow while sleepy time. I'd be afraid to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get snipped trying to tie the claws how did you do it with out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other claw pinching you. I didn't know there was that many species, he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is a kansas species of some sort he killed the other one that was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little littler. I at one time had some from a creek that where tiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tiny but they all died with in like to days but the catfish from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              same creek are still alive and getting big about a little over a inch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              very neat to watch them eat. 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Aw don't worry, I've seen them living in the worse of conditions. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > beware, they can easily take sleeping fish that lay on the bottom. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > usually tie their claws closed so they don't eat my gourami's , WAIT,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't yell yet, if they can't use their claws they use their front legs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that have tiny claws and balance on the back two sets.... Did you know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there are some 200 speices of them living here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5636 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ok, thanks. I was thinking you rubberbanded them like they do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lobsters for sale alive in stores. hehehe But thanks on how to do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and the safety tips. =:o)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip, repeat for other side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > When dry this stuff is much stronger than thin setting CA glue and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > solid at hobby shops. When the crayfish molts you will have to repeat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > BUT only a few days after molt so the Exoskeleton is hardened
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > This glue should be used with the following?:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Safety Glasses or , and a face shield
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Rubber Gloves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mineral Oil ( to separate items [fingers, *eyes*] that we accidentally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > glued together)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > adequate air circulation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > *as with all accidental eye contanct of injury place your hand about 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > inches from face, don't move your eyes off a spot on your hand so as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to cause tearing or puncture. Don't move the eyes about, call for help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > so a person can take you to the ER without you moving your eyes.. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > not to blink as much as possible.*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5637 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Fish Question...Can someone help ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sounds like bacterial infections or skin ulcerations.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              both can be treated with melafix for 7 days and should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              clear up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Bubbles <marines_sunshine@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have 3 Aquariums at home however 2 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Aquariums seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filled with healthy fish and the 3rd aqarium doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > seem that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Why is that ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The Fish (GOLD FISH) seem to have holes in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > stomachs..and we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have no idea where these holes could be from ....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Could they be wanting to eat each other ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Their skin seems kind of scrapey often times..We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > took the water to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tested and we were told the water is fine...so what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > would be wrong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with the fish if they have these holes in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > stomach ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > First i thought thats from swallowing the rocks on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > aquarium but now we dunno..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > HELP please ? :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Bubbles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5638 From: paul helms Date: 9/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: snails in cycling tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you may want to find out what the snails are as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              many of them that come on plants are herbivores and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will eat your plant. many of them also breed in great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              determining what you have better than most on here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Well, it seems that some little snails came riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > internet order of plants. I just noticed them in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wasn't planning on having snails, but since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Also...I want to double check with you experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5639 From: paul helms Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: posts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have posts suddenly slowed to a crawl or is there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              something wrong with yahoo? i have gone from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              30-40 a day down to 10 or less?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5640 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Light source for freshwater planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              howdy well i bascially have the same set up as you i added plants more quickly than yo udid and yours seemed to have lasted longer than mine as i replace mine about every few months.. then never seem to last longer than that.. well wait i have a fern and a like big green plant that have survived but i think they are liike the most hardy plants.. last week i added a special plant light that was spendy at 20 bucks but i am thinking dang worth it.. my plants have come to life.. my aquarium is brighter... but also on the side i started adding flourish excel which i bouight via lots of kudos from ppl on this group.. and things have really got a lot better.. if you do use the flourish i really suggest you start with like a fourth of the dose that the bottle recomends.. as i think my aquarium was terribly stressed when i added the marked amouint... jmo shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi! I have a 29 gallon freshwater tank with 5 tetras 1 platy and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pleco. It has been set up for over 3 years now and about 3 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ago I added live plants to it. It seems that at first my plants did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              great but now they are starting to lose leaves and look sickly. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              am new to the fresh water planted tanks and would like to know if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have to have a special lighting system, filtration, and substrat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Any help is greatly welcomed. Thank you all and I am looking forward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to being a part of the group!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5641 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Light source for freshwater planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It is a misconception that fish tanks provide all the nutrients
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              needed by plants. Iron, for one, is usually lacking in fish tanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and if your water is on the alkaline side that can prevent iron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              uptake even if iron is avaialable. Like land plants, they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              different light requirements, and some do not need special lighting,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              while some require it. The substrate is necessary for most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plants, something for the roots to really dig into besides just sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              or gravel. I use laterite mixed with peat and vermiculite till it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              doughy. (I also added a bit of compost from my pile) and then spread
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              over the base about an inch + or_ thick. I covered that with gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and was very careful when filling the tank not to disturb the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              layer, as it tends to make the water very cloudy when I do. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              use plant tab pellets tucked in around their roots, and am having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fine results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5642 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Light source for freshwater planted tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Daylight-spectrum lights at 3-4 watts per gallon would be your most important investment in raising planted tank. Substrate comes next. You have a light fishload so filtration won't matter as much. Choose easy and durable plants first, such as vallisneria, sagittaria, small cryptocorynes, Java moss, Java fern and anubias, gradually moving on to more difficult plants as you get more experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi! I have a 29 gallon freshwater tank with 5 tetras 1 platy and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pleco. It has been set up for over 3 years now and about 3 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ago I added live plants to it. It seems that at first my plants did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              great but now they are starting to lose leaves and look sickly. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              am new to the fresh water planted tanks and would like to know if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have to have a special lighting system, filtration, and substrat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Any help is greatly welcomed. Thank you all and I am looking forward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to being a part of the group!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5643 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: posts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There was a message bloom (similar to a bacteria bloom?) over the last week when I was getting huge amounts of messages from several groups on yahoo.  Now it has gone back down a little.  You can never know for sure why, but it would be interesting to find the cause. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have posts suddenly slowed to a crawl or is there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                something wrong with yahoo?  i have gone from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                30-40 a day down to 10 or less?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5644 From: shortlid Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Hatchet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I went home last night and the Hatchet's tank mates had all stoped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chasing the Hatchet, and the Hatchet ate this morning!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > well i think our lady wasnt right.. i have 2 hatchet fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                originally 3 but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one died.. and they love each other and i know if one dies the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > shortly cuase they are usually by themselves and need eachother at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the bare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > least... i was afraid to add another or 2 becuase they seeem to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so well together
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and didnt watn to add a problem... anyhow i would get atleast 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > quick i have never seen any of my corys or tetras or anythign chase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mine.. however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > when my rosy barb was ill everythign in the tank was attacking it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so i took
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it out and it died.. so im thinking maybe something might be wrong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish how is it swimming if at all... ambye you need to exchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > well.. hope something helps let us know what hapens.. shanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia is finally under control so I added the three Cory's I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to help keep the tank clean. Well two of them are happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > energetic but the third just hug around the bottom and died a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > later. So, I returned him to the locally owned pet store and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > checks my water and said it was good with just SLIGHTLY high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but nothing huge. She said it could be from adding the three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cory's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a day ago. She said she would give me another fish. I chose a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hatchet Fish cause she said they are OK solitary. Well from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > moment I put it in the tank, everything is chasing it!! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the Danios, now it is hanging abound the bottom of the tank where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > know it is not suppose to be cause it is a top dweller??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5645 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily. Is that enough? Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing until the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you may want to find out what the snails are as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > many of them that come on plants are herbivores and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > determining what you have better than most on here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Well, it seems that some little snails came riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Also...I want to double check with you experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5646 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Hatchet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                awsome... that is great.. maybe he is on the mend or has figured out he wants to live and got a bit defensive... who knows but the result now is postive.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I went home last night and the Hatchet's tank mates had all stoped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chasing the Hatchet, and the Hatchet ate this morning!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5647 From: joesalpepe Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Danios and Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello, My name is Joeand I,ve been in the hobby for almost thirty years.I'm in the processof (as I call it) getting back to basics.I've decided to focus onraising and breeding high quaility danios and some barb species(cherry, black ruby and tiger). My danios are all the naturalstrains;I think it is ethicaly wrong to breed the long-finned typesbecause of the difficulty the fish have in just swimming and feeding. The high-tech side of aquarium keeping startedto seem too much like work and was also getting too costly.I've foundmy new old-school approach has brought back the enjoyment offish-keeping that got me hooked in the first place.This is my firstclub in years and I'd be interested in your thoughts or comments . Respectfully , joe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5648 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Danios and Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi, Joe...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm brand new to this hobby, but thoroughly hooked already. I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be VERY interested in learning about your more simple techniques!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's always wonderful to get lots of input and different views on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                things. I couldn't agree more about the ethics thing. Anytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                humans interfere with genetics and produce animals that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difficulties because if it, it makes me sad. Perfect examples are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the smashed faces of some of the dog and cat breeds. The poor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                animals have lots of breathing problems because of it. I, for one,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                am happy to have you "on board"!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "joesalpepe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <joesalpepe@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hello, My name is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joeand I,ve been in the hobby for almost thirty years.I'm in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processof (as I call it) getting back to basics.I've decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                focus onraising and breeding high quaility danios and some barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                species(cherry, black ruby and tiger). My danios are all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                naturalstrains;I think it is ethicaly wrong to breed the long-finned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                typesbecause of the difficulty the fish have in just swimming and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                feeding. The high-tech side of aquarium keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                startedto seem too much like work and was also getting too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                costly.I've foundmy new old-school approach has brought back the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                enjoyment offish-keeping that got me hooked in the first place.This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is my firstclub in years and I'd be interested in your thoughts or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comments .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Respectfully , joe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5649 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: posts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it's a combination of both. less posts and yahoo is crawling...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 29, 2004, at 3:39 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have posts suddenly slowed to a crawl or is there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > something wrong with yahoo?  i have gone from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-40 a day down to 10 or less?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5650 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This does sound weird. I personally don't care for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for my personal enjoyment. I understand the purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                does that make it okay to cripple it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Justin

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5651 From: paul helms Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to each his own. i can understand your point, but in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this case no harm, other than frustration, is being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                done to the crawdad. it is not injured or permanantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                damaged in any way shape or form. the only thing that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is stopped is the aggressive tendencies and the damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to other creatures. it still moves the same, and eats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plenty. jmho
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Jay Why? <justin4fun24@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >slower setting so you can control the amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >crawfish down so it can't move, with your other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This does sound weird. I personally don't care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for my personal enjoyment. I understand the purpose,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see Chinese
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of dollers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                _________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5652 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Danios and Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                True as blue There Miss Barbara.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Genetics used to cause disfiguring in a breed or species is never ethical in the educated mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To cause a dog or cat to be "A little Toy" is disheartening. I had a friends who had a boston terrier, it had a proplem with the eye becoming dislodged (popping out) , it was gross to say the least.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I did have two Shar Pe/pitbulls that were very healthy and seemed to be much hardier than the "purebed" versions who get allergic reactions to the corn in the dogfood (kendalls 5 is wheat based) also had eye problems , skin problems in the folds of the skin for which they are famous for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The "Mutts" I had I wouldn't give uip for nothing, they were such loving dogs and in the closing months of THAT marrage she sold them one day when I was at work....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But I'm not trying to throw out a sympathy thing , just explaining how sometimes the crossing of other breeds into a "Problem breed" fixes many ills.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BUT, I'm also working on some new species of Trichogaster gouramis. These species are so close to parent species that the odds of genetic weakness will be null.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi, Joe...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm brand new to this hobby, but thoroughly hooked already.  I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be VERY interested in learning about your more simple techniques! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's always wonderful to get lots of input and different views on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                things.  I couldn't agree more about the ethics thing.  Anytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                humans interfere with genetics and produce animals that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                difficulties because if it, it makes me sad.  Perfect examples are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the smashed faces of some of the dog and cat breeds.  The poor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                animals have lots of breathing problems because of it.  I, for one,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                am happy to have you "on board"!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "joesalpepe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <joesalpepe@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hello,                                              My name is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joeand I,ve been in the hobby for almost thirty years.I'm in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                processof (as I call it) getting back to basics.I've decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                focus onraising and breeding high quaility danios and some barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                species(cherry, black ruby and tiger). My danios are all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                naturalstrains;I think it is ethicaly wrong to breed the long-finned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                typesbecause of the difficulty the fish have in just swimming and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                feeding.                      The high-tech side of aquarium keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                startedto seem too much like work and was also getting too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                costly.I've foundmy new old-school approach has brought  back the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                enjoyment offish-keeping that got me hooked in the first place.This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is my firstclub in years and I'd be interested in your thoughts or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comments .                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Respectfully ,                                            joe



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5653 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws of a crawdad to bound feet of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant. You are talking about people having feet so tightly bound that many chinese women have circulation problems and some lost their feet to gangrene.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided to throw out the first slap here.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other crustaceans need to have their claws banded to keep them from eating the other tank mates. The biggest lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat all the others in a short amount of time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is not the best way, a tooth pick pushed into the joint and broken off will also keep the claws closed and is one of the methoids used since the bands they use break and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound lobsters will eat them all even faster.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live with it's claws glued closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn, clams, Etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This does sound weird. I personally don't care for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for my personal enjoyment. I understand the purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5654 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My pleasure, they do make fine janitorial staff ounce disabled

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok, thanks. I was thinking you rubberbanded them like they do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lobsters for sale alive in stores. hehehe But thanks on how to do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and the safety tips. =:o)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip, repeat for other side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > When dry this stuff is much stronger than thin setting CA glue and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > solid at hobby shops. When the crayfish molts you will have to repeat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > BUT only a few days after molt so the Exoskeleton is hardened
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This glue should be used with the following?:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Safety Glasses or , and a face shield
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Rubber Gloves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Mineral Oil ( to separate items [fingers, *eyes*] that we accidentally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > glued together)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > adequate air circulation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > *as with all accidental eye contanct of injury place your hand about 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > inches from face, don't move your eyes off a spot on your hand so as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to cause tearing or puncture. Don't move the eyes about, call for help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so a person can take you to the ER without you moving your eyes.. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not to blink as much as possible.*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5655 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks Paul, Like minded see the value of janitors in the tank, now if I can only get them toi vaccum those nice patterns in the carpet

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to each his own.  i can understand your point, but in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this case no harm, other than frustration, is being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                done to the crawdad.  it is not injured or permanantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                damaged in any way shape or form.  the only thing that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is stopped is the aggressive tendencies and the damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to other creatures.  it still moves the same, and eats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plenty. jmho
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Jay Why? <justin4fun24@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                slower setting so you can control the amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                crawfish down so it can't move, with your other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This does sound weird. I personally don't care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for my personal enjoyment. I understand the purpose,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see Chinese
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of dollers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5656 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Back when I used to catch them for food(yum yum) I would occasionaly catch some that had lost both big claws, or had broken big claws making them useless. They were not missing any meals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5657 From: Audrey Archer Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia each day; keep adding the same amount of ammonia until your NITRITES are 3 to 5 ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you are adding now, and add this reduced amount each day. When both nitrItes and ammonia are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is done BEFORE adding the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in fact, your ammonia will be zero for some time before your nitrites come down to zero), do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which should be at their peak now), then immediately add the original amount of ammonia again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if ammonia and nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria are at the levels they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite levels stable, and you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And an aside to the person who asked about tweaking your Whisper filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I may be "new" to the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your have any substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological filter". You do NOT need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel, because the gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria needed to do this; and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will NOT eliminate your biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe out this bacteria once it has been established is if you treat your tank with medications that are antibacterial, or put chlorinated water into your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia and zero nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with ammonia, and I have maintained this without any "special" bacterial filter; I have the cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank kit, and it has gotten me through many water changes, and many cartridge rinses (and several changes), and through my adding more fish, adding more plants, getting snails in the plants and having them try to take over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my tank is even theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen fish and a group of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long (white clouds) and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami) are currently a little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten gallon planted tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen beyond the bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not stayed stable is my pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey with them at the start; but they are stable now, also.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Putting ammonia in tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily. Is that enough? Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing until the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you may want to find out what the snails are as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > many of them that come on plants are herbivores and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > determining what you have better than most on here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Well, it seems that some little snails came riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Also...I want to double check with you experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5658 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just did a test before I read this post. Keep in mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My results were: Ammonia .50 Nitrite 5.0 and Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ammonia! I certainly do like having this test kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                adding the same amount of ammonia until your NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and add this reduced amount each day. When both nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will be zero for some time before your nitrites come down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                their peak now), then immediately add the original amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And an aside to the person who asked about tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel, because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacteria once it has been established is if you treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                medications that are antibacterial, or put chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                maintained this without any "special" bacterial filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gotten me through many water changes, and many cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                several changes), and through my adding more fish, adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plants, getting snails in the plants and having them try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami) are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily. Is that enough?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > you may want to find out what the snails are as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > determining what you have better than most on here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Also...I want to double check with you experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5659 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 10/2/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Saturday October 2, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5660 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                something much worse watch iron chefs the episode where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lobster they where chopping them in half still alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In my opinion of course.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws of a crawdad to bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant. You are talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > people having feet so tightly bound that many chinese women have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > circulation problems and some lost their feet to gangrene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other crustaceans need to have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > claws banded to keep them from eating the other tank mates. The biggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat all the others in a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is not the best way, a tooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pick pushed into the joint and broken off will also keep the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > closed and is one of the methoids used since the bands they use break
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound lobsters will eat them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > faster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn, clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >This does sound weird. I personally don't care for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >for my personal enjoyment. I understand the purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5661 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                while i've never seen the iron chef, i have made stuffed lobster and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do so you have to cut them in half while they're alive. they actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                die rather quickly that way, provided the person doing the cutting is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                strong enough to do it in one shot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this is generally assumed to be as painless as the decapitation of mice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for research, which is considered the most pain free way to dispatch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Sep 29, 2004, at 10:12 PM, mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > something much worse watch iron chefs the episode where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lobster they where chopping them in half still alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In my opinion of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5662 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Danios and Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The state of danios is bad, in my opinion.  And I don't think there is any amount of reintroduction of natural breeds that is going to change the quality of danio we get in stores.  They are just so easy to breed by accident and easy to mass produce for everything from aquariums to science experiments that I don't see that changing.  It will probably be individual breeders who keep a small supply of healthy fish around.  As for un-natural fish, I think that is a personal opinion more than an ethics issue, but I personally like natural fish better. :)  Just my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Welcome to the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello,                                              My name is Joeand I,ve been in the hobby for almost thirty years.I'm in the processof (as I call it) getting back to basics.I've decided to focus onraising and breeding high quaility danios and some barb species(cherry, black ruby and tiger). My danios are all the naturalstrains;I think it is ethicaly wrong to breed the long-finned typesbecause of the difficulty the fish have in just swimming and feeding.                      The high-tech side of aquarium keeping startedto seem too much like work and was also getting too costly.I've foundmy new old-school approach has brought  back the enjoyment offish-keeping that got me hooked in the first place.This is my firstclub in years and I'd be interested in your thoughts or comments .                                             Respectfully ,                                            joe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5663 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just don't see why it is cruel to chop a over grown bug in half. :)  I say if you are going to eat it, kill it.  If you aren't going to eat it, let it live unless it is endangering you, someone else, or your property.  Then eat it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    something much worse watch iron chefs the episode where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lobster they where chopping them in half still alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In my opinion of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5664 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: something different about danios and a single killifish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ok well wondering here. I got 3 zebra danios today and let me tell you about high activity i have the lights off cuase theyre dirivng me crazy lol.. not really but i thought the others in the tank neded a bit of down time.. i was told they were more middle tank dwellers and at the store thats where they were but in my tank they are harassing my hatchet fish which i dont like.. what does anyone elses do.. are they hanging out at the top like mine.. oh yea an di got one kill fish he is so small.. and by himself but he was all the had left and said they are normally single fish.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The state of danios is bad, in my opinion.  And I don't think there is any amount of reintroduction of natural breeds that is going to change the quality of danio we get in stores.  They are just so easy to breed by accident and easy to mass produce for everything from aquariums to science experiments that I don't see that changing.  It will probably be individual breeders who keep a small supply of healthy fish around.  As for un-natural fish, I think that is a personal opinion more than an ethics issue, but I personally like natural fish better. :)  Just my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Welcome to the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5665 From: joesalpepe Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Doe anyoe have any info on ghostshrimp? I am thinking of adding some to my community tank with the hope they would act as scavengers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5666 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: something different about danios and a single killifish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Danios are extermely fast fish, and I have never seen one that was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    alive that was not moving. That is just how they are. They will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bother fish that are slower. I don't call it aggression toward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    those fish, but they are aggressivly fast. :) Personally, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    either have a tank of just danios and have about 10 of them in a 20-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank. If you don't have an empty 20 gallon tank around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (who does?) it would probably be best to take them back to the store.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ok well wondering here. I got 3 zebra danios today and let me tell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > high activity i have the lights off cuase theyre dirivng me crazy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lol.. not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > really but i thought the others in the tank neded a bit of down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    time.. i was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > told they were more middle tank dwellers and at the store thats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    where they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > but in my tank they are harassing my hatchet fish which i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    like.. what does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anyone elses do.. are they hanging out at the top like mine.. oh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yea an di
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > got one kill fish he is so small.. and by himself but he was all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the had left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and said they are normally single fish.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5667 From: Jay Why? Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >to each his own. i can understand your point, but in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >this case no harm, other than frustration, is being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >done to the crawdad. it is not injured or permanantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >damaged in any way shape or form.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah Paul, I'm not going to be calling up PETA or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything! I just lean towards `if nature let it happen,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    its good enough as is.` Ya' know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >first slap here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hehe - I should clarify. I don't think its the same as binding feet - I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    `see` that in my head. They are *NOT* the same, I didn't mean to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    imply that. I just had a feeling of `*I* wouldn't do that.` So I threw it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    out there... and I only meant to throw an idea out, not a slap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sometimes I like being the `other` side of an argument, just for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sake of debate. You're not killing puppy's for fun - so you're cool with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    me. I trust you care for your animals appropriately Mark. Apologies, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    didn't mean it as an attack.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn, clams, Etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >*P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yep - I'm willing to bet you've picked the most humane option for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your crawdads. Honestly, I work in a restaurant and lobster season
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is coming up - so I'll see plenty of live lobsters being split right down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the middle. As an animal lover and a meat-eater, I'm aware that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for us to eat meat animals are killed. My point is that whether they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are for food or as pets - treat them with respect and as humane as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Peace,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Justin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    _________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5668 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have ghost shrimp in almost all my tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Depending on your fish, they may get eaten. My swordtails and puffers took care of any they can find.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A friend and I also learned the hard way that ghost shrimp will and do eat fish eggs and small fry, so I wouldn't add them to a tank where you are breeding fish!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily, they are cheap! My swords ate my expensive tiger shrimp the first go around!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I haven't done anything special to my water (you can add iodine), just make sure they have places to hide. Mine like being in plants or driftwood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5669 From: joequality1980 Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have 3 that I got several months ago. They're quite enjoyable to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    watch, since by now they've gotten quite brave at snatching food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    from some fish. Over time, they have grown and developed interesting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bright color points on their antennae and certain legs. And yes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are good at scavenging anything on the bottom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you're worried about them being eaten, dont. Ghost shrimp can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    swim away from danger quickly, even though none of my fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (swordtails, gouramis, catfish, tetras, ...) have taken any serious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    interest in eating them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They are a nice, unusual addition to the community tank, and are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    always a topic of conversation. I recommend it!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "joesalpepe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <joesalpepe@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Doe anyoe have any info on ghostshrimp? I am thinking of adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    some to my community tank with the hope they would act as scavengers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5670 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They make great scavengers, but provide LOTS of hiding spots, as fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    seem to find them quite tasty. Their favorite hiding spots in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    daughters tanks are small plastic tubes that we shoved down into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    substrate to make a sort of tunnel affair. Also, they tend to shed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    their skin, which looks like a dead shrimp on the bottom, so don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    panic if you see one. They are funny when they get to swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    around the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Doe anyoe have any info on ghostshrimp? I am thinking of adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    some to my community tank with the hope they would act as scavengers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5671 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 6 gallon Eclipse...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got a 6 gallon Eclipse on order for one of my bettas. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just the one fish, is there any need to cycle this little tank? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I decide to put a cory and/or oto in later, is that okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5672 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: something different about danios and...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    serioulsy wow... really i shoiuld take them back.. today they have moved away from the top exclusivly and are kinda in teh mid to top area my little killi fish is so cute but the fish taht i can never find lol.. i wuld like to have more of them the stores says they only have them for a limited time so mabye taking back the danios and getting more of them but they were spendy..then there was this red tetra that looked like a bleeding heart yet with the red and no heart it has 2 variations long fins and shorter ones.. any idea what the name of them is.. shanon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Danios are extermely fast fish, and I have never seen one that was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    alive that was not moving.  That is just how they are.  They will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bother fish that are slower.  I don't call it aggression toward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    those fish, but they are aggressivly fast. :)  Personally, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    either have a tank of just danios and have about 10 of them in a 20-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.  If you don't have an empty 20 gallon tank around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (who does?) it would probably be best to take them back to the store.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5673 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    always good to cycle the tank, but usually a betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    will survive the cu\ycle as eat very little and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pollute very little. they also breathe atmospheric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oxgen instead of through gills and are less damaged by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the ammonia spike. i would not add the cori's until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    5-6 weeks later. and cori's love to be in group of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    three or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I've got a 6 gallon Eclipse on order for one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bettas. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just the one fish, is there any need to cycle this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little tank? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I decide to put a cory and/or oto in later, is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5674 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    actuall splitting the head in half kills them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    instantly, no flopping or anything at all, in addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it keeps them from tensing up when they get dropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    into a pot of boiling water. when dropped inlive they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tense becaus eit takes about 5 seconds to kill them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    when their brain cooks. the preferred emthod is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    head split because they are killed in a fraction of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    second. no nerve twitching no flinching form pain.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > something much worse watch iron chefs the episode
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lobster they where chopping them in half still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > my opinion of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > crawdad to bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > people having feet so tightly bound that many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > chinese women have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > circulation problems and some lost their feet to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gangrene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > crustaceans need to have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > claws banded to keep them from eating the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank mates. The biggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the others in a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the best way, a tooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > pick pushed into the joint and broken off will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > also keep the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > closed and is one of the methoids used since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bands they use break
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound lobsters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will eat them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > faster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > medium setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>slower setting so you can control the amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > injected better. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>crawfish down so it can't move, with your other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >This does sound weird. I personally don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >for my personal enjoyment. I understand the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Search!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5675 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I just did a test before I read this post. Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My results were: Ammonia .50 Nitrite 5.0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia! I certainly do like having this test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adding the same amount of ammonia until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and add this reduced amount each day. When both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will be zero for some time before your nitrites come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > their peak now), then immediately add the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > And an aside to the person who asked about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacteria once it has been established is if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > medications that are antibacterial, or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > maintained this without any "special" bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants, getting snails in the plants and having them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is that enough?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > you may want to find out what the snails are as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > determining what you have better than most on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Also...I want to double check with you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5676 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    When I myself do a fishless cycle my Nitrates have been around 100.  I do a 50-60% water change and the nitrates go away.  It won't hard the bacteria if you leave your gravel alone.  Just suck the water and don't sure up the gravel.  Last time I did a fishless cycle (ended last weekend) my nitrates were only about 20, so I did a smaller water change, about 20% and tested the next day and they were at 5 and then I added my 4 Dwarf gourami'sand as of today they are all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I just did a test before I read this post.  Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My results were:  Ammonia .50  Nitrite 5.0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia!  I certainly do like having this test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adding the same amount of ammonia until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and add this reduced amount each day. When both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will be zero for some time before your nitrites come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > their peak now), then immediately add the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > And an aside to the person who asked about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacteria once it has been established is if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > medications that are antibacterial, or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > maintained this without any "special" bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants, getting snails in the plants and having them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >    From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it right!  Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is that enough? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrates are zero?  If and when that occurs, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > you may want to find out what the snails are as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > will eat your plant.  many of them also breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > numbers.  i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > determining what you have better than most on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > internet order of plants.  I just noticed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > gallon tank.  Should I remove them, or leave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > there?  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Also...I want to double check with you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > experts.  Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5677 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yea, I didn't want to toss that out there as we might have some *P.E.T.A*. or E.L.F. members waiting to find someone who pulls claws off so they can protest and get "F--LISH" people to send them money. I actually found that if you disable them (remove both claws while under local anesthesia) then they work harder at pinking thru the gravel for scraps...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Glad to know I'm not alone ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    *PETA , Headed by Ingrid Newcirk pulls in an amassing 14 million ($14,000,000.00 USD) yearly and spend zero ($0.00) on rescues and Shelters but do have one heck of a nice studio and video editing center but yet staying Non-Profit??? WOW*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark J. Bethke wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My pleasure, they do make fine janitorial staff ounce disabled

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok, thanks. I was thinking you rubberbanded them like they do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lobsters for sale alive in stores. hehehe But thanks on how to do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and the safety tips. =:o)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip, repeat for other side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > When dry this stuff is much stronger than thin setting CA glue and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > solid at hobby shops. When the crayfish molts you will have to repeat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > BUT only a few days after molt so the Exoskeleton is hardened
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > This glue should be used with the following?:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Safety Glasses or , and a face shield
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Rubber Gloves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Mineral Oil ( to separate items [fingers, *eyes*] that we accidentally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > glued together)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adequate air circulation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > *as with all accidental eye contanct of injury place your hand about 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > inches from face, don't move your eyes off a spot on your hand so as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to cause tearing or puncture. Don't move the eyes about, call for help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > so a person can take you to the ER without you moving your eyes.. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not to blink as much as possible.*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5678 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh you should see them eat "Dojo" , live eel like critters which are still swimming and down the hatch. Now I love sushi and sashimi but draw the line at feeling "Alien" swimming in my gut for a few minutes, but then they eat puffer which kills what , 20 a year????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Slide me a 48 onunce primerib anyday

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    something much worse watch iron chefs the episode where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lobster they where chopping them in half still alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In my opinion of course.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws of a crawdad to bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant. You are talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > people having feet so tightly bound that many chinese women have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > circulation problems and some lost their feet to gangrene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other crustaceans need to have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > claws banded to keep them from eating the other tank mates. The biggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat all the others in a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is not the best way, a tooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pick pushed into the joint and broken off will also keep the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > closed and is one of the methoids used since the bands they use break
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound lobsters will eat them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > faster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn, clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used medium setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>slower setting so you can control the amount injected better. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>crawfish down so it can't move, with your other hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >This does sound weird. I personally don't care for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >for my personal enjoyment. I understand the purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5679 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I don't think lobsters have a brain as much as a notacord (SP) so pain would be very short lived , or at least until it hits the clearified butter and falls into my yap... Man, I'm off for dinner...Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    while i've never seen the iron chef, i have made stuffed lobster and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do so you have to cut them in half while they're alive. they actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    die rather quickly that way, provided the person doing the cutting is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    strong enough to do it in one shot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this is generally assumed to be as painless as the decapitation of mice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for research, which is considered the most pain free way to dispatch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    On Sep 29, 2004, at 10:12 PM, mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  something much worse watch iron chefs the episode where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  lobster they where chopping them in half still alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In my opinion of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Adornments....



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5680 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good point, I don't kill the "Daddy Long Legs" in my house, they eat skitters and flies and when they are missing it means there are "Widows" so they serve a good purpose. Now a 3 inch long mole cricket is squash city when it crosses my path. Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just don't see why it is cruel to chop a over grown bug in half. :)  I say if you are going to eat it, kill it.  If you aren't going to eat it, let it live unless it is endangering you, someone else, or your property.  Then eat it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    something much worse watch iron chefs the episode where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lobster they where chopping them in half still alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In my opinion of course.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5681 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cool Breeze there Justin. Over reaction on my part, comes from the clean up job I did at this three mile island place, heck all I had to do is mop up some water in this room, no biggy, I do have a funny twitch every now and then and I glow in the dark, is that strange?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to each his own.  i can understand your point, but in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this case no harm, other than frustration, is being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    done to the crawdad.  it is not injured or permanantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    damaged in any way shape or form.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah Paul, I'm not going to be calling up PETA or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything! I just lean towards `if nature let it happen,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    its good enough as is.` Ya' know?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hehe - I should clarify. I don't think its the same as binding feet - I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    `see` that in my head. They are *NOT* the same, I didn't mean to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    imply that. I just had a feeling of `*I* wouldn't do that.` So I threw it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    out there... and I only meant to throw an idea out, not a slap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sometimes I like being the `other` side of an argument, just for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sake of debate. You're not killing puppy's for fun - so you're cool with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    me. I trust you care for your animals appropriately Mark. Apologies, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    didn't mean it as an attack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn, clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yep - I'm willing to bet you've picked the most humane option for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your crawdads. Honestly, I work in a restaurant and lobster season
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is coming up - so I'll see plenty of live lobsters being split right down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the middle. As an animal lover and a meat-eater, I'm aware that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for us to eat meat animals are killed. My point is that whether they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are for food or as pets - treat them with respect and as humane as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Peace,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5682 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If I quit putting ammonia in the tank now, are the tests going to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down to zero on ammonia and nitrates eventually? Isn't that when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm to do a complete water change? Wouldn't that get rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrates? I definitely wouldn't put ANY fish in the tank until it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was safe. This is my new 25 gallon Eclipse tank, pegged as a home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for Diamond tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I just did a test before I read this post. Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > My results were: Ammonia .50 Nitrite 5.0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia! I certainly do like having this test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > adding the same amount of ammonia until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and add this reduced amount each day. When both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > will be zero for some time before your nitrites come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > their peak now), then immediately add the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > And an aside to the person who asked about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacteria once it has been established is if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > medications that are antibacterial, or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > maintained this without any "special" bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > plants, getting snails in the plants and having them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Is that enough?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > you may want to find out what the snails are as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > determining what you have better than most on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Also...I want to double check with you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5683 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had one that the lady accidently caught trying to catch a fish it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lived about 6 weeks (she said it would only live about a week) till my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    goldfish ate it. But I don't know anything about them.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Doe anyoe have any info on ghostshrimp? I am thinking of adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    some to my community tank with the hope they would act as scavengers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5684 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got four corys in my 12 gallon Eclipse with the guppies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    platies. Will eventually get more for my 25 gallon, and will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sure to have a trio in with the betta in the new little 6 gallon, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    long as I know they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be okay with him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > always good to cycle the tank, but usually a betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will survive the cu\ycle as eat very little and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pollute very little. they also breathe atmospheric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > oxgen instead of through gills and are less damaged by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the ammonia spike. i would not add the cori's until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 5-6 weeks later. and cori's love to be in group of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > three or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I've got a 6 gallon Eclipse on order for one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bettas. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > just the one fish, is there any need to cycle this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > little tank? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I decide to put a cory and/or oto in later, is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5685 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was thinking the water change needed to be close to 100%, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    glad to have this information. I have just been confused about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exactly when to STOP putting the ammonia in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > When I myself do a fishless cycle my Nitrates have been around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    100. I do a 50-60% water change and the nitrates go away. It won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hard the bacteria if you leave your gravel alone. Just suck the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water and don't sure up the gravel. Last time I did a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cycle (ended last weekend) my nitrates were only about 20, so I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a smaller water change, about 20% and tested the next day and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    were at 5 and then I added my 4 Dwarf gourami'sand as of today they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I just did a test before I read this post. Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > My results were: Ammonia .50 Nitrite 5.0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia! I certainly do like having this test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > adding the same amount of ammonia until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and add this reduced amount each day. When both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > will be zero for some time before your nitrites come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > their peak now), then immediately add the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > And an aside to the person who asked about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacteria once it has been established is if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > medications that are antibacterial, or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > maintained this without any "special" bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > plants, getting snails in the plants and having them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Is that enough?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > you may want to find out what the snails are as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > determining what you have better than most on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Also...I want to double check with you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5686 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Barb.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The few times I've done this, I just added the ammonia every other day until I took a test and they were at zero, the I tested nitrites and if they were at zero, I would added one to two time the amount of ammonia I've been added and then test the next day and every time it's been at zero.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Then I would do a LARGE water change, like 50 or 60% and that would take care of the Nitrates. Then I'll add 25% of the total number of fish I plan on adding (you can add less if you wish).  Then I'd wait 3 or 4 weeks and add the next 25% and then do it two more time to have the full fish load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    After I add the first 25% of fish I still do tests every other day to make sure I don't have a MINI cycle and so far the 3 tanks I have I've been lucky and have not lost a fish in 4 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If I quit putting ammonia in the tank now, are the tests going to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down to zero on ammonia and nitrates eventually?  Isn't that when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm to do a complete water change?  Wouldn't that get rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrates?  I definitely wouldn't put ANY fish in the tank until it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was safe.  This is my new 25 gallon Eclipse tank, pegged as a home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for Diamond tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I just did a test before I read this post.  Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > My results were:  Ammonia .50  Nitrite 5.0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia!  I certainly do like having this test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > adding the same amount of ammonia until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and add this reduced amount each day. When both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > will be zero for some time before your nitrites come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > their peak now), then immediately add the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > And an aside to the person who asked about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacteria once it has been established is if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > medications that are antibacterial, or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > maintained this without any "special" bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > plants, getting snails in the plants and having them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >    From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it right!  Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Is that enough? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > nitrates are zero?  If and when that occurs, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > you may want to find out what the snails are as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > will eat your plant.  many of them also breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > numbers.  i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > determining what you have better than most on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > internet order of plants.  I just noticed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > gallon tank.  Should I remove them, or leave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > there?  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Also...I want to double check with you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > experts.  Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5687 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They where actually cutting them in half at the waist (so to say) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    use the tail. and they will still moving.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > actuall splitting the head in half kills them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > instantly, no flopping or anything at all, in addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it keeps them from tensing up when they get dropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into a pot of boiling water. when dropped inlive they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tense becaus eit takes about 5 seconds to kill them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > when their brain cooks. the preferred emthod is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > head split because they are killed in a fraction of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > second. no nerve twitching no flinching form pain.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > something much worse watch iron chefs the episode
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > lobster they where chopping them in half still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > my opinion of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > crawdad to bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > are talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > people having feet so tightly bound that many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > chinese women have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > circulation problems and some lost their feet to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gangrene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > crustaceans need to have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > claws banded to keep them from eating the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank mates. The biggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the others in a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the best way, a tooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > pick pushed into the joint and broken off will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > also keep the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > closed and is one of the methoids used since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bands they use break
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound lobsters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > will eat them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > faster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > medium setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>slower setting so you can control the amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > injected better. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>crawfish down so it can't move, with your other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >This does sound weird. I personally don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >for my personal enjoyment. I understand the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Search!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5688 From: Captain Kidd Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've never done that high.  It would be a nightmare on a large tank.  Some other may have done it different, I just try and do what works for me and pass the info along. Remember just test the water and if you don't get the numbers you are looking for change more water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is what I love about doing a fishless cycle, you can mess up and you have no fish to hurt :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was thinking the water change needed to be close to 100%, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    glad to have this information.  I have just been confused about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exactly when to STOP putting the ammonia in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > When I myself do a fishless cycle my Nitrates have been around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    100.  I do a 50-60% water change and the nitrates go away.  It won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hard the bacteria if you leave your gravel alone.  Just suck the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water and don't sure up the gravel.  Last time I did a fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cycle (ended last weekend) my nitrates were only about 20, so I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a smaller water change, about 20% and tested the next day and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    were at 5 and then I added my 4 Dwarf gourami'sand as of today they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > Thanks, Audrey!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > I just did a test before I read this post.  Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > mind that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > added more ammonia this afternoon...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > My results were:  Ammonia .50  Nitrite 5.0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > Nitrate 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > I'll definitely do a test tomorrow BEFORE putting in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > ammonia!  I certainly do like having this test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > kit!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > each day; keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > adding the same amount of ammonia until your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > NITRITES are 3 to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > ppm. Then reduce your ammonia to half of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > are adding now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > and add this reduced amount each day. When both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > nitrItes and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > are ZERO when you test it (and since this test is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > done BEFORE adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > the daily amount, they WILL get down to zero - in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > fact, your ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > will be zero for some time before your nitrites come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > down to zero),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > should be at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > their peak now), then immediately add the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > amount of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > are at the levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > they need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > levels stable, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > you are ready to stock your tank with your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > And an aside to the person who asked about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > tweaking your Whisper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > filter by adding an airstone - this is not needed. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > may be "new" to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > the hobby (had my tank only since April) but if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > substrate in your tanks, you have a "biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > filter". You do NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > need to have an undergravel filter or a bio-wheel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > needed to do this;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > NOT eliminate your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > bacteria once it has been established is if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > medications that are antibacterial, or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > chlorinated water into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > your tank. My tank has been stable with zero ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > and zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > nitrites since 18 days after I cycled it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > ammonia, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > maintained this without any "special" bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > filter; I have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > cheap power filter that came with my WalMart tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > kit, and it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > cartridge rinses (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > adding more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > plants, getting snails in the plants and having them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > fish and a group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > of small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > (white clouds)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > and the other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > are currently a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > little under an inch, all happily dwelling in a ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > gallon planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > tank, and my ammonia and nitrites have NEVER risen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > beyond the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > bacterial capacity. (The only thing that has not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > stayed stable is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to monkey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > with them at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > start; but they are stable now, also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >    From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > Subject: Putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > it right!  Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > Is that enough? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > until the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > nitrates are zero?  If and when that occurs, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > you may want to find out what the snails are as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > many of them that come on plants are herbivores
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > will eat your plant.  many of them also breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > numbers.  i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > determining what you have better than most on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > Well, it seems that some little snails came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > internet order of plants.  I just noticed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > gallon tank.  Should I remove them, or leave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > there?  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > Also...I want to double check with you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > experts.  Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5689 From: joesalpepe Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE.Six gallon eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Great tank, your betta will be in paradise.However one cory will be miserable, they need to be in groups of at least three.I'm no expert but a Khuli Loach sounds perfect for this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5690 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ahh that is a different story, and i would not agree
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with that. they should have put the knife through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    head and killed them first. i have been doing gourmet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    catering for about 10 years, and have always tought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    everyone to do the head to spare the animal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > They where actually cutting them in half at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > waist (so to say) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > use the tail. and they will still moving.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > actuall splitting the head in half kills them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > instantly, no flopping or anything at all, in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it keeps them from tensing up when they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > into a pot of boiling water. when dropped inlive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tense becaus eit takes about 5 seconds to kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > when their brain cooks. the preferred emthod is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > head split because they are killed in a fraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > second. no nerve twitching no flinching form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pain.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > something much worse watch iron chefs the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > episode
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > lobster they where chopping them in half still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > isn't. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > my opinion of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > crawdad to bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > are talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > people having feet so tightly bound that many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > chinese women have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > circulation problems and some lost their feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > gangrene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > decided
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > crustaceans need to have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > claws banded to keep them from eating the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > tank mates. The biggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the others in a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the best way, a tooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > pick pushed into the joint and broken off will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > also keep the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > closed and is one of the methoids used since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > bands they use break
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lobsters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > will eat them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > faster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > closed then be put in a boil with sausage ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > medium setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>CA Glue is also know as superglue , the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > medium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>slower setting so you can control the amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > injected better. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>crawfish down so it can't move, with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>claws and use a small spot of glue at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >This does sound weird. I personally don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >for my personal enjoyment. I understand the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > MSN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Search!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5691 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as long as the temp stays stable they will be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the betta's usually only go after long finned or very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tiny fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks, Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I've got four corys in my 12 gallon Eclipse with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > guppies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > platies. Will eventually get more for my 25 gallon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sure to have a trio in with the betta in the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little 6 gallon, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > long as I know they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be okay with him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > always good to cycle the tank, but usually a betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > will survive the cu\ycle as eat very little and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > pollute very little. they also breathe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > atmospheric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > oxgen instead of through gills and are less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > damaged by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the ammonia spike. i would not add the cori's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 5-6 weeks later. and cori's love to be in group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > three or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I've got a 6 gallon Eclipse on order for one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > bettas. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > just the one fish, is there any need to cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > little tank? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I decide to put a cory and/or oto in later, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5692 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are only suppose dot live up to 6 months, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have a 2 year old one in my tank, so i don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    accurate the info out there is. they will not bother
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any fish and they are great cleaners, that is all i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had one that the lady accidently caught trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > catch a fish it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lived about 6 weeks (she said it would only live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > about a week) till my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > goldfish ate it. But I don't know anything about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Doe anyoe have any info on ghostshrimp? I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > thinking of adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > some to my community tank with the hope they would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > act as scavengers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5693 From: Barbara Linden Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: RE.Six gallon eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for your thoughts...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I love the little corys that I have in my 12 gallon Eclipse guppy &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    platy tank. Similar to Pandas, but with more tiny spots, too. I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be sure to have at least a trio of these little guys working in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    6 gallon Eclipse as long as the betta gets along with them. Will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    check out the Khuli loach, since you recommended this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't wait to get my 25 Tall Eclipse fully cycled, so I can put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my teensy baby Diamond tetras. I'm grateful to have learned about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fishless cycling, so no fishies had to die.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "joesalpepe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <joesalpepe@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Great tank, your betta will be in paradise.However one cory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    will be miserable, they need to be in groups of at least three.I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    no expert but a Khuli Loach sounds perfect for this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5694 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't say why your Zebra Danio's were swimming mid-water in your lfs or what other fish were in with them to cause them to act in this manner, but these fish are and always have been known to swim in the upper 1/4 of the tank, often at or near the surface. The store employee was obviously wrong when he told you this fish was a "mid-water swimmer". Hope you didn't take that advice from Petsmart; when in doubt, ask one of us. Otherwise, when in doubt, keep this in mind; in general, the position of a fish's mouth will indicate where it swims in the water column as this will show where he feeds. For instance, the Zebra Danio has a slightly upturned mouth indicating it prefers to swim near the surface as that is where it will be looking for its food. Your Hatchet Fish, for example have their mouth directed extremely upwards (called "anatomically superior") indicating that it feeds and swims right at the surface. The Giant Danio has a more forward (terminal) positioned mouth -- this fish is more of a mid-water swimmer than its cousin, the Zebra Danio. A Clown Loach or a Cory Catfish has a downward facing (anatomically inferior) mouth and of course swims and feeds off the bottom. Just look at the position of the mouth next time, that will tell you where it swims and looks for food. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5695 From: paul helms Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone here ever kept a gopher snake? i aquired one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at a clients house who hates snakes (second one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spotted in 2 days in the back yard), this is my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    attempt at keeping one, and no i have never let one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    die. the last one i caught (same size) was as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    around as a pencil and about 12-14 inches long. this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    guy is the same. the last one refused to eat anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    other than pinkies. i did not enjoy feeding those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because the pinkies would scream until fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    enveloped, so i let him go where no other critters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    would get him. any suggestions on alternate food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sources?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5696 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: something different about danios and...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The red Tetra could be a Serpae Tetra. I don't think the Flame Tetra comes in a long-finned version yet. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5697 From: amalthea23 Date: 9/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just because something moves doesn't mean it's still alive first off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and honestly, even broccoli has a rudimentary nervous system. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    don't enjoy a stuffed lobster, don't eat it, though man, you're really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    missing something...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:08 AM, mommy2acdhsurvivor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > They where actually cutting them in half at the waist (so to say) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > use the tail.  and they will still moving.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > actuall splitting the head in half kills them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > instantly, no flopping or anything at all, in addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it keeps them from tensing up when they get dropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > into a pot of boiling water.  when dropped inlive they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tense becaus eit takes about 5 seconds to kill them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > when their brain cooks.  the preferred emthod is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > head split because they are killed in a fraction of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > second.  no nerve twitching no flinching form pain.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I don't think it's wrong to bound there claws. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > you want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > something much worse watch iron chefs the episode
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > where they cooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > lobster they where chopping them in half still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > alive. Now that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cruel, ensuring they don't kill other fish isn't. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > my opinion of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Ok Justin , now comparing disabling the claws of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > crawdad to bound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > of the chinese is rather,,, Well ,, Ignorant. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > are talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > people having feet so tightly bound that many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > chinese women have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > circulation problems and some lost their feet to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > gangrene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Ignorant is a bad word to use but then you decided
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > to throw out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > first slap here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Crawdad , lobster, crabs and a few other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > crustaceans need to have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > claws banded to keep them from eating the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > tank mates. The biggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > lobster if left with clas un-boundf will eat all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the others in a short
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > amount of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > BTW, you tell me this, glueing the claws is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the best way, a tooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > pick pushed into the joint and broken off will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > also keep the claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > closed and is one of the methoids used since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > bands they use break
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > and a unboubd lobster in a tank of bound lobsters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > will eat them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > faster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Plus I'd bet that the crawdad would rather live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > with it's claws glued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > closed then be put in a boil with sausage , corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > clams, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > So lets move that *P.E.T.A*. flag down the street
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > *P.E.T.A. stands for "People Eat Tasty Animals"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>Ok, this sounds weird but here goes , I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > medium setting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > cynoacrylic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>CA Glue is also know as superglue , the medium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > type is thicker and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>slower setting so you can control the amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > injected better. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > pin the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>crawfish down so it can't move, with your other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > hand close one set of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>claws and use a small spot of glue at the tip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >This does sound weird. I personally don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > for disabling an animal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >for my personal enjoyment. I understand the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > purpose, so the crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >doesn't kill or injure the other fish, but if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > that's an issue maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >shouldn't be in the tank with them at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Using superglue to `fix` an animal so it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > compatible with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >tank just seems wrong. I can't help but see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Chinese women with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >bound feet. Although you can pay a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > dollers for a crawdad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >does that make it okay to cripple it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Search!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5699 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: RE.Six gallon eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My tank only has 2 one albino and one juju they are fine and dont really have anythign to do with each other... i think a lot has to do with personality cuase mine are more independt so there is hope.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Great tank, your betta will be in paradise.However one cory will be miserable, they need to be in groups of at least three.I'm no expert but a Khuli Loach sounds perfect for this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5700 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thanks very good point.. so that got me thinking i am giogn to go look at all my fish.. and now i am wondering why my bleeding hearts stay at the bottom mostly  they mouths seem as far upturned as the zebra danios or ever more so.. or is there something special about them... the zebras have seem to taper down a bit they are seeking out there new home they were even at the bottom earlier... i have a lot of plants that are all over the aquarium rather that the nicely arrange tall in back and short in front.. lets just say i didnt plan for a planted tank when i started and have had serious issues keeping them planted.. so anyhow sorry for the detour kinda sad i liked those danios i like the stripes sad if they need to go back.. shann0on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't say why your Zebra Danio's were swimming mid-water in your lfs or what other fish were in with them to cause them to act in this manner, but these fish are and always have been known to swim in the upper 1/4 of the tank, often at or near the surface. The store employee was obviously wrong when he told you this fish was a "mid-water swimmer". Hope you didn't take that advice from Petsmart; when in doubt, ask one of us. Otherwise, when in doubt, keep this in mind; in general, the position of a fish's mouth will indicate where it swims in the water column as this will show where he feeds. For instance, the Zebra Danio has a slightly upturned mouth indicating it prefers to swim near the surface as that is where it will be looking for its food. Your Hatchet Fish, for example have their mouth directed extremely upwards (called "anatomically superior") indicating that it feeds and swims right at the surface. The Giant Danio has a more forward (terminal) positioned mouth -- this fish is more of a mid-water swimmer than its cousin, the Zebra Danio. A Clown Loach or a Cory Catfish has a downward facing (anatomically inferior) mouth and of course swims and feeds off the bottom. Just look at the position of the mouth next time, that will tell you where it swims and looks for food. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5701 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 6 gal eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I originally had Gerald, my 1st betta in the 5 gallon Eclipse equivalent. However, I noticed over time he started to not like the current in the tank, and his fins were showing some damage. I could have done something to lessen the current, but I can't ignore an excuse for more tanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So he is in a glass 5.5 gallon (planted), and I just do partial water changes throughout the week. I also have another male in a similar tank set up (minus driftwood).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But since you will have the bio-wheel, you might as well cycle the tank. I'd take time adding new fish in such a small tank, as it will be easy to cause mini-cycles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerald flares at everything and every1 but me, haha, so he's going to remain a loner. He gets ghost shrimp, but they only live until he finds them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There are Pygmy Cories (Corydorus habrosus). You'd be able to have a bigger school since they stay so small, if you can find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.azgardens.com/misc_fish.php (a few down on the list)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As far as Kuhlis, I love them...they love to hide and need to have caves and plants to hide in. (They are also more active at night.) They do better in groups, and tend to be less 'shy,' so they need at least a group of 3. I think that would work in the 6, as long as you keep up w/ water changes and all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Or you could always do a lot of plants, just the betta, and some shrimp! :) They are really fun to watch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    LoL, it's way past my bedtime, I'm babbling! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5702 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My experience with zebra danios has been that if they are in a shoal and nothing to fear from other tank habitants, they do swim at all levels. I have had zebra danios many times swim exclusively at the bottom just over the substrate in a 18” deep 4ft long and 3ft wide tank. This was a group of 6 zebras accompanied by a 2 large blackmoor goldfish. Till the time they considered the goldfish as giants and a threat, they were always in the surface but as soon as they realized that goldfish canot even catch them and is practically harmless, they were all over the tank. Infact, they stopped schooling as well. to get them schooling again I had to spend 5 mins once a week trying to catch them (basically scaring them).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 01 October 2004 05:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] something different about danios and a s...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't say why your Zebra Danio's were swimming mid-water in your lfs or what other fish were in with them to cause them to act in this manner, but these fish are and always have been known to swim in the upper 1/4 of the tank, often at or near the surface. The store employee was obviously wrong when he told you this fish was a "mid-water swimmer". Hope you d idn 't take that advice from Petsmart; when in doubt, ask one of us. Otherwise, when in doubt, keep this in mind; in general, the position of a fish's mouth will indicate where it swims in the water column as this will show where he feeds. For instance, the Zebra Danio has a slightly upturned mouth indicating it prefers to swim near the surface as that is where it will be looking for its food. Your Hatchet Fish, for example have their mouth directed extremely upwards (called "anatomically superior") indicating that it feeds and swims right at the surface. The Giant Danio has a more forward (terminal) positioned mouth -- this fish is more of a mid-water swimmer than its cousin, the Zebra Danio. A Clown Loach or a Cory Catfish has a downward facing (anatomically inferior) mouth and of course swims and feeds off the bottom. Just look at the position of the mouth next time, that will tell you where it swims and looks for food. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5703 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I had lobster once, I have had crab a few times.  I have to say that shrimp is much better than all that stuff.  I also like fryed oysters.  Crawdads are a little messy for me to eat.  I like my crustacean clean, boild or fryed, and with shirmp sauce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      just because something moves doesn't mean it's still alive first off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and honestly, even broccoli has a rudimentary nervous system. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      don't enjoy a stuffed lobster, don't eat it, though man, you're really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      missing something...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5704 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just a little note.  The elf is a terrorist organization, and its members are terrorists.  Peta helps fund elf, as stated on their web site.  Just a little note.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yea, I didn't want to toss that out there as we might have some *P.E.T.A*. or E.L.F. members waiting to find someone who pulls claws off so they can protest and get "F--LISH" people to send them money. I actually found that if you disable them (remove both claws while under local anesthesia) then they work harder at pinking thru the gravel for scraps...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Glad to know I'm not alone ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5705 From: shortlid Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the water for livebearers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5706 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: 6 gallon Eclipse...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks, Paul..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That's pretty much what I thought. Will keep an eye on them though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Certainly wouldn't want any harm to come to any of them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as long as the temp stays stable they will be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the betta's usually only go after long finned or very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tiny fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks, Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I've got four corys in my 12 gallon Eclipse with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guppies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > platies. Will eventually get more for my 25 gallon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sure to have a trio in with the betta in the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > little 6 gallon, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > long as I know they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > be okay with him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > always good to cycle the tank, but usually a betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > will survive the cu\ycle as eat very little and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > pollute very little. they also breathe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > atmospheric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > oxgen instead of through gills and are less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > damaged by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the ammonia spike. i would not add the cori's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 5-6 weeks later. and cori's love to be in group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > three or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I've got a 6 gallon Eclipse on order for one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > bettas. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > just the one fish, is there any need to cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > little tank? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I decide to put a cory and/or oto in later, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5707 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: something different about danios and...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Incidentally, I would just like to point out that the red Tetra you have is more likely to be the Rosy Tetra (Rosaceous) or the Ornate Tetra (Ornatus), both closely related and looking very similar to the Bleeding Heart Tetra as you describe the fish; more probably the Rosy Tetra rather than the Serpae Tetra I first mentioned, without actually seeing a picture of it. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5708 From: freedombell2002 Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know you can get frozzen pinkies. Some people just leave them out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        till they warm up a bit and then feed the snake. Good luck

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyone here ever kept a gopher snake? i aquired one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > today at a clients house who hates snakes (second one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spotted in 2 days in the back yard), this is my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attempt at keeping one, and no i have never let one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > die. the last one i caught (same size) was as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around as a pencil and about 12-14 inches long. this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guy is the same. the last one refused to eat anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other than pinkies. i did not enjoy feeding those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > because the pinkies would scream until fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enveloped, so i let him go where no other critters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would get him. any suggestions on alternate food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sources?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5709 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You will find that many (most) of the Tetras prefer the bottom half of the aquarium, still considered "mid-water". If you look more closely, the Zebra Danio's lower maxillary (jaw) is positioned on more of an oblique angle, pointing more steeply to the top of the head, resulting in the mouth actually being closer to the top of the head. In most Tetras (including your Bleeding Heart Tetra), the lower maxillary is not positioned on such a steep angle, resulting in the mouth actually nearly centered, top to bottom, on the head. The top of the head slopes downward to meet the upward slope of the bottom of the head. As mentioned, this can also be readily seen in the Giant Danio. The angled appearance of the overlapping top maxillary may give the outward appearance at first that the mouth is more upturned, but when the mouth is opened for eating, it is seen to be more centered. It is this angled appearance of the upper jaw which gives the initial impression of the mouth being positioned higher than it really is, but most of our more familiar aquarium fishes, of many families, are constructed like this, excluding the more specialized bottom feeding fishes such as catfish, etc. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5710 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And a molly mate? I've got three female mollies, one red and black,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one black and white, and one silver. And I have one orange platy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But all the sudden, the mollies are starting to look pregnant. These
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were given to me about a month ago by a guy tearing down his tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while he's in Iraq, and as far as I know, he never had any male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mollies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5711 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim, Thank you so much for the info on your Zebra Danio's as you ave observed them. I really find that behavior most interesting. I was talking in generalities, as having these fish from time to time in peaceful community situations over many years, I can't say that I've ever seen them swimming in anything other than the top 1/3rd of the tank, usually more like the top 1/4. Guess that shows that there can always be exceptions to the rule. Its such unexpected behavior like this, among so many other things, that makes this hobby so interesting. I trust you will agree however, that in general, the fish's mouth position does usually indicate its swimming range preference in the tank, as this is one of its traits it has developed as it has evolved to fill a certain niche in its environment. Thanks again for the input. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5712 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes, they are only one gene off and can interbreed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > And a molly mate? I've got three female mollies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one red and black,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one black and white, and one silver. And I have one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > orange platy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But all the sudden, the mollies are starting to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pregnant. These
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were given to me about a month ago by a guy tearing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > down his tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while he's in Iraq, and as far as I know, he never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had any male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mollies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5713 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok thanks....i am trying to avoid pinkies all togther.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have raised and hand tamed tooooo many mice, rats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and hamsters to feed babies to the snake. if i can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get him to eat a goldfish or crickets, i'll just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        release him at the creek.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I know you can get frozzen pinkies. Some people just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leave them out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > till they warm up a bit and then feed the snake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Good luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anyone here ever kept a gopher snake? i aquired
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > today at a clients house who hates snakes (second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > spotted in 2 days in the back yard), this is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > attempt at keeping one, and no i have never let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > die. the last one i caught (same size) was as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > around as a pencil and about 12-14 inches long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guy is the same. the last one refused to eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > other than pinkies. i did not enjoy feeding those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > because the pinkies would scream until fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > enveloped, so i let him go where no other critters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > would get him. any suggestions on alternate food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sources?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5714 From: straubtyler Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't see why everybody wants to eat a crawdad. They make great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bait. put it on a hook have some wait for a a little bit and have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        real meal.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I had lobster once, I have had crab a few times. I have to say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shrimp is much better than all that stuff. I also like fryed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oysters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Crawdads are a little messy for me to eat. I like my crustacean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clean,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > boild or fryed, and with shirmp sauce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just because something moves doesn't mean it's still alive first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and honestly, even broccoli has a rudimentary nervous system. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't enjoy a stuffed lobster, don't eat it, though man, you're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > missing something...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5715 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.animalscam.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        these are all great sources of information if you're the type to follow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PETA's ideals. I agree with you fully, patrick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Oct 1, 2004, at 8:39 AM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Just a little note.  The elf is a terrorist organization, and its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > members are terrorists.  Peta helps fund elf, as stated on their web
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > site.  Just a little note.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yea, I didn't want to toss that out there as we might have some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > *P.E.T.A*. or E.L.F. members waiting to find someone who pulls claws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > off so they can protest and get "F--LISH" people to send them money. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > actually found that if you disable them (remove both claws while under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > local anesthesia) then they work harder at pinking thru the gravel for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > scraps...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Glad to know I'm not alone ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <image.tiff>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5716 From: straubtyler Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have never had a gopher snake but i have kept other wild snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about the same size. Gopher snakes are not in my area. i usaly fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mine small goldfish, minows or guppys. gophers are desert snakes so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i dont know if they would go for a little swim for a meal. A search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        on google says they will accept dead food maby you could buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        prekilled frozen mice if killing them makes you uneasy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyone here ever kept a gopher snake? i aquired one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > today at a clients house who hates snakes (second one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spotted in 2 days in the back yard), this is my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attempt at keeping one, and no i have never let one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > die. the last one i caught (same size) was as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around as a pencil and about 12-14 inches long. this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guy is the same. the last one refused to eat anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other than pinkies. i did not enjoy feeding those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > because the pinkies would scream until fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enveloped, so i let him go where no other critters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would get him. any suggestions on alternate food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sources?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5717 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Right on Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good to know other's have seen past their deceptive "BS".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And yes when a "Spiked" log hits the debarker or cut down saws the blade spinning at thouysand of RPM's throws knife sharp shards of that blade in all dirrections many times killing lumber workers .

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ELF is a terrible group that should be taken down, the best way, As Pat has said don't support PETA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just a little note.  The elf is a terrorist organization, and its members are terrorists.  Peta helps fund elf, as stated on their web site.  Just a little note.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yea, I didn't want to toss that out there as we might have some *P.E.T.A*. or E.L.F. members waiting to find someone who pulls claws off so they can protest and get "F--LISH" people to send them money. I actually found that if you disable them (remove both claws while under local anesthesia) then they work harder at pinking thru the gravel for scraps...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Glad to know I'm not alone ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Black Adder





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5718 From: shortlid Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe my Platy is pregnant, by my black Molly?? That is maybe why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she will not eat and is submisive???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > yes, they are only one gene off and can interbreed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@h...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > And a molly mate? I've got three female mollies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > one red and black,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > one black and white, and one silver. And I have one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > orange platy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > But all the sudden, the mollies are starting to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > pregnant. These
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > were given to me about a month ago by a guy tearing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > down his tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > while he's in Iraq, and as far as I know, he never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > had any male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > mollies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5719 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have you ever had more than those 2 cories together?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is a huge debate in itself, and all fish are individuals...but I will have to agree with people on their schooling. I have 2 types in my 55 gallon, and they tend to stick to 2 groups (pandas and juhlis). But the more you have, especially w/ like coloring, the more schooling behavior you will see. The behavior in mine changes every time I make the schools larger, I plan on having 6 of each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But that's just my view and experience, LoL. After what I have seen mine do, I prefer the behavior that shows w/ at least 4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My tank only has 2 one albino and one juju they are fine and dont really have anythign to do with each other... i think a lot has to do with personality cuase mine are more independt so there is hope.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5720 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: something different about danios and a s...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I Will agree to it Ray that zebra danios are super tropic fish and mostly feed from the surface and hence remain mostly at the surface. But having a species tank of zebra danios will defiantly show variable results and they may not always be at the surface. I have seen them move on the substrate very similar to the way loaches or other subtropic fish do but these circumstances are very different. A 4ft x 3ft wide and 1.5ft high tank would be like a playground for a good school of zebras and the behavior they depict in it will be vastly different from a tank that’s 4ft x 1.5ft wide. But what I was trying to say was that the possibility that they can come down to the bottom still does exist… even more of the schooling group starts spawning. Having an entire school spawn randomly is a sight not to be missed ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 01 October 2004 16:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] something different about danios and a s...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim, Thank you so much for the info on your Zebra Danio's as you ave observed them. I really find that behavior most interesting. I was talking in generalities, as having these fish from time to time in peaceful community situations over many years, I can't say that I've ever seen them swimming in anything other than the top 1/3rd of the tank, usually more like the top 1/4. Guess that shows that there can always be exceptions to the rule. Its such unexpected behavior like this, among so many other things, that makes this hobby so interesting. I trust you will agree however, that in general, the fish's mouth position does usually indicate its swimming range preference in the tank, as this is one of its traits it has developed as it has evolved to fill a certain niche in its environment. Thanks again for the input. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5721 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm a little nervous about having too many cories in such a tiny 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon tank. Would it be better to put Otos in my 6 gallon, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cories in my 12 and 25 gallon tanks? I do NOT want to crowd 'em!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Have you ever had more than those 2 cories together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It is a huge debate in itself, and all fish are individuals...but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I will have to agree with people on their schooling. I have 2 types
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in my 55 gallon, and they tend to stick to 2 groups (pandas and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        juhlis). But the more you have, especially w/ like coloring, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more schooling behavior you will see. The behavior in mine changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        every time I make the schools larger, I plan on having 6 of each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But that's just my view and experience, LoL. After what I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seen mine do, I prefer the behavior that shows w/ at least 4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christina :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My tank only has 2 one albino and one juju they are fine and dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really have anythign to do with each other... i think a lot has to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do with personality cuase mine are more independt so there is hope..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5722 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Lots of baby fishies...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I want to AVOID having baby fish, and am amazed at all the people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        who are trying to propagate more. Where in the world do you find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        homes for all of them??? Unless you have a website and sell "big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time" on the internet, there are just so many local homes looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for fishies. Educate me!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5723 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you stick to smaller cories, and only 3, I think you will be OK. Panda cories don't get as big as some of the others, were you ever able to find any?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not opposed to buying fish online and having them shipped to me, but I also have people who can go in on orders with me to defer shipping costs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But you never know how the betta will react to roommates either! And it's always best to use your own judgement. My tanks are understocked, as they look full, especially with the plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ottos are very sensitive to water conditions. Having them in a small tank like that may prove difficult, and they also need a lot of algae or supplemented feeding (veggies, algae disks if they'll eat them etc.) Ottos are wild caught, which is why usually about 1 of 3 don't make it past a month when you take them home.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have the same issue w/ buying puffers, as many types are usually wild caught, very stressed, sometimes diseased, and full of parasites.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have you joined any forums? I am a member of quite a few, and some are full of great, helpful people. It's a good way to find people with experience w/ certain species. I can email you off the list, if you'd like info.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5724 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Lots of baby fishies...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Haha, I was SOO excited when I first had swordtail babies. Now, I just leave them in the tank and most will get eaten by the parents.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Although I feel guilty, and after some tank rearranging, I'm sure I'll be getting them into the fry tank. LoL But I have no idea what I'll do with those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now, my puffers or cories, I'd love to see those breed. Easily find homes and make some money! Unless I ended up keeping them *sigh* Darn puffers are too cute!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Some stores will buy fish from people, some people breed harder to get fish, and there are many people who use sites like www.aquabid.com or their own to sell.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you don't want babies, avoid livebearers! LoL Or stick to one sex, although females can have babies a few times from one fertilization...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Many people think breeding means you have a healthy tank, etc etc. Most of the time, unless you 'save' the babies, most will get eaten by some fish in the tank...or only the best hiders will make it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Trust me, baby fish are cute. I have a friend who is so anti-breeding, and her angels laid eggs....and now she's on a kick to get all her fish to breed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5725 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have swordtails, so very similar to your fish. When the females give birth, they do act different. I always worry about them, since I spaz over my fish, LoL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My last female was very inactive, looked like she was about to die... But she's fine now. She just stayed hidden and avoided the other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The females can have babies about every 30 days. They will get pretty fat, although I still can't always tell with mine. The last one having babies was the smallest and thinnest one I have...?!?! Go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5726 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi, Christina...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I looked for the Pandas everywhere locally, to no avail. Did find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some neat and very similar cories in a Pet's Mart out of town, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bought four. They have nearly the same markings, but lots of tiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spots, too. Are not tiny though! I have them in the 12 gallon for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now, but they'll go in the 25, once it's ready for LIFE! I have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ottos in the 12, too. So far, so good with them. They are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first Ottos I've ever had. You are smart to understock, but it's SO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hard to walk away, when you see a NEAT fishie you'd love to have!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My 12 is definitely OVERstocked at the moment, 'cuz I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        resist when I found a tank of teeny baby Diamonds at a great price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thought it would be fun to watch them develop, so they are in w/ the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies and platies for now. I bought eight of them, and so far, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good. I've had 'em a week now. AMAZING how fast they can swim!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm wondering how in the world am I going to be able to catch 'em to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        transfer them to the 25 when it's ready!!? I KNOW I should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quarantine new fish, but I didn't. I'm testing the water regularly,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and will definitely be doing frequent small water changes, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Isn't THIS a forum? Don't I just do a Google or get on Yahoo Groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to find more? I AM on two more now. It's VERY educational and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        entertaining, too. I really, really appreciate all the input and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        help I'm had!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you stick to smaller cories, and only 3, I think you will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK. Panda cories don't get as big as some of the others, were you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ever able to find any?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not opposed to buying fish online and having them shipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to me, but I also have people who can go in on orders with me to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        defer shipping costs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But you never know how the betta will react to roommates either!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And it's always best to use your own judgement. My tanks are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        understocked, as they look full, especially with the plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ottos are very sensitive to water conditions. Having them in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        small tank like that may prove difficult, and they also need a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of algae or supplemented feeding (veggies, algae disks if they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eat them etc.) Ottos are wild caught, which is why usually about 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of 3 don't make it past a month when you take them home.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have the same issue w/ buying puffers, as many types are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually wild caught, very stressed, sometimes diseased, and full of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        parasites.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Have you joined any forums? I am a member of quite a few, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some are full of great, helpful people. It's a good way to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people with experience w/ certain species. I can email you off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        list, if you'd like info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5727 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Lots of baby fishies...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh, I KNOW that the babies are CUTE... If you read my previous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        post, you know I gave in to getting some tiny baby Diamonds! Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because I raised and showed dogs for 30 years, I got the "raising"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out of my system, but all I want now is some long lived, healthy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful fishes and beautiful plants in the aquarium. (I do still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have 5 dogs, but four are from rescue) It's SUCH a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neat hobby...amazing that I haven't gotten involved before now. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        think it's just because it has a reputation of being "difficult".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Eclipse tanks gave me the confidence to TRY it. I just wish I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        known about "fishless cycling" before I got that first tank. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surprises me is that the people at the fish stores haven't heard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about it! I also was asking about sexing tiny baby Black Phantom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras, and the "expert" at the fish store said they were too young
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to tell. After he walked away, I looked more closely at the baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, and I (UNDERLINE THAT!) could tell the difference easily!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Surely makes me wonder about the "expert" advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Haha, I was SOO excited when I first had swordtail babies. Now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just leave them in the tank and most will get eaten by the parents.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Although I feel guilty, and after some tank rearranging, I'm sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'll be getting them into the fry tank. LoL But I have no idea what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'll do with those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Now, my puffers or cories, I'd love to see those breed. Easily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        find homes and make some money! Unless I ended up keeping them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        *sigh* Darn puffers are too cute!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Some stores will buy fish from people, some people breed harder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to get fish, and there are many people who use sites like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.aquabid.com or their own to sell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you don't want babies, avoid livebearers! LoL Or stick to one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sex, although females can have babies a few times from one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fertilization...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Many people think breeding means you have a healthy tank, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc. Most of the time, unless you 'save' the babies, most will get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eaten by some fish in the tank...or only the best hiders will make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Trust me, baby fish are cute. I have a friend who is so anti-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeding, and her angels laid eggs....and now she's on a kick to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all her fish to breed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5728 From: Rob And Joyce Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Anyone near Buffalo?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have an albino chocolate pleco that needs a bigger home. Anyone who wants him, drop me a message. Thanks, Rob.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5729 From: shortlid Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The platy did look on the fat side maybe she is pregnant. Will the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fry survive?? I don't know how she became pregnant cause I know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Molly WAS a female she was pregnant when I got her. Live bearers can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        switch sexes right??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, crickit99@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have swordtails, so very similar to your fish. When the females
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        give birth, they do act different. I always worry about them, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I spaz over my fish, LoL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My last female was very inactive, looked like she was about to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        die... But she's fine now. She just stayed hidden and avoided the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The females can have babies about every 30 days. They will get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pretty fat, although I still can't always tell with mine. The last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one having babies was the smallest and thinnest one I have...?!?! Go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5730 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Keeping in mind what yall said about cories, I noticed one tank in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        particular at the fish store when I went to pick up Chrissy's female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        betta today (a very pretty blue female...hope she can mate with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        methuselah when we get them fattened up). In this tank were some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pretty speckled cories, some striped cories, and some panda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cories...five to ten of each (big tanks). They were all segregated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        according to color! I asked if they came in together, and the owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the store said yes. But my daughter got baby cories seperately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shipped within a week of each other, emerald green, panda, striped,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        speckled and albino, that also flock together in a group. When I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        decided to try to put the albino that was raised with the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        colored cories in with more albinos, he wouldn't have anything to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with them, and instead sought out the emerald green cories, who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        didn't want him around. So I put him back in the mismatched tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and they are all doing fine. So, could it be more of a case of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they are raised around?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5731 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Lots of baby fishies...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >After he walked away, I looked more closely at the baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, and I (UNDERLINE THAT!) could tell the difference easily!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Surely makes me wonder about the "expert" advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb, my Papa Tony always said "An Expert is just someone from out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        town with a briefcase"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5732 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could be, i have seen oscars that were raised with all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sorts of community fish that would not harm any that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it was raised with, but anything you added that fit in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        its mouth was lunch. an example would be the black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neon tetras he was raised with. would not eat them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but any black neons added after the fact are lunch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Keeping in mind what yall said about cories, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > noticed one tank in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > particular at the fish store when I went to pick up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Chrissy's female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > betta today (a very pretty blue female...hope she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can mate with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > methuselah when we get them fattened up). In this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank were some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pretty speckled cories, some striped cories, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some panda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories...five to ten of each (big tanks). They were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all segregated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > according to color! I asked if they came in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > together, and the owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of the store said yes. But my daughter got baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories seperately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shipped within a week of each other, emerald green,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > panda, striped,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > speckled and albino, that also flock together in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group. When I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decided to try to put the albino that was raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > colored cories in with more albinos, he wouldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have anything to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with them, and instead sought out the emerald green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > didn't want him around. So I put him back in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mismatched tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and they are all doing fine. So, could it be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of a case of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they are raised around?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5733 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have not heard of live bearers changing gender in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the case of mollies, platties or guppies. on the salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water fish, clowns will become female when they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        larger than other males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The platy did look on the fat side maybe she is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pregnant. Will the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fry survive?? I don't know how she became pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cause I know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Molly WAS a female she was pregnant when I got her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Live bearers can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > switch sexes right??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crickit99@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have swordtails, so very similar to your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > When the females
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > give birth, they do act different. I always worry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about them, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I spaz over my fish, LoL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My last female was very inactive, looked like she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was about to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > die... But she's fine now. She just stayed hidden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and avoided the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The females can have babies about every 30 days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > They will get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pretty fat, although I still can't always tell with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mine. The last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one having babies was the smallest and thinnest one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have...?!?! Go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5734 From: paul helms Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thaks for your reply, but it is just the pinkie sthat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bother me, and i know with my last he was not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        interested unless it was moving. i found it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surprising that they call the gophers desert snakes. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        found that too when iw as looking. i am in the east
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bay of california (45 minutes from san fran), and itis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not dry here at all. they are everywhere in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        area. under bushes and in the hills, at the creeks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- straubtyler <straubtyler@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have never had a gopher snake but i have kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other wild snakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about the same size. Gopher snakes are not in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > area. i usaly fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mine small goldfish, minows or guppys. gophers are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > desert snakes so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i dont know if they would go for a little swim for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > meal. A search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on google says they will accept dead food maby you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > prekilled frozen mice if killing them makes you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > uneasy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anyone here ever kept a gopher snake? i aquired
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > today at a clients house who hates snakes (second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > spotted in 2 days in the back yard), this is my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > attempt at keeping one, and no i have never let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > die. the last one i caught (same size) was as big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > around as a pencil and about 12-14 inches long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guy is the same. the last one refused to eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > other than pinkies. i did not enjoy feeding those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > because the pinkies would scream until fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > enveloped, so i let him go where no other critters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > would get him. any suggestions on alternate food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sources?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5735 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: as of friday something different about danios and a s...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oh wow that is how you get fish to schol chase them for 5 minutes a week.. lol none of my fish but my 2 hatchets have anything to do with each other my neons are everywehre my bleeding hearts everywehre my corys everywhere and the new zebra danios are everywehre not jsut the top the bottom now and middle.. i am giong to wait a few days longer and see what hppaenns.. today i gave in and boght 2 more killifish as they apparetly only max out under a inch and the one was lony i thouhght even though they tell me she isnt so i got two more.. when i was there i asked her about the zebra danois she said she hers are all over ther tank as well and to give them some more time.. she says if they dont get better i can exchange them.. and the fish i was wanting were the red fin tetras any one have anything to say about them... they seemed fairly mellow in the tanks at the store.. thansk shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ray,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My experience with zebra danios has been that if they are in a shoal and nothing to fear from other tank habitants, they do swim at all levels. I have had zebra danios many times swim exclusively at the bottom just over the substrate in a 18” deep 4ft long and 3ft wide tank. This was a group of 6 zebras accompanied by a 2 large blackmoor goldfish. Till the time they considered the goldfish as giants and a threat, they were always in the surface but as soon as they realized that goldfish canot even catch them and is practically harmless, they were all over the tank. Infact, they stopped schooling as well. to get them schooling again I had to spend 5 mins once a week trying to catch them (basically scaring them).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5736 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Ray Re: something different about danios and...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks ray i went back and it says it is called red finned minor or major depending on how long the fins are.. is that still one of those common names.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Incidentally, I would just like to point out that the red Tetra you have is more likely to be the Rosy Tetra (Rosaceous) or the Ornate Tetra (Ornatus), both closely related and looking very similar to the Bleeding Heart Tetra as you describe the fish; more probably the Rosy Tetra rather than the Serpae Tetra I first mentioned, without actually seeing a picture of it. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5737 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Crawdad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don't worry I won't eat it!Or the broccoli. Not because of the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it's killed just because I'm to picky of an eater. No fish, chicken,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ham, turkey. YUCK! And why I was talking about it had nothing to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with eating it!!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just because something moves doesn't mean it's still alive first off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and honestly, even broccoli has a rudimentary nervous system. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't enjoy a stuffed lobster, don't eat it, though man, you're really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > missing something...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5738 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is an excellent question, Paul - I don't know the answer. But my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrates ranged up and down from 80 to 160 on my test strip for the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        week of my cycle; I found it curious that they were fluctuating to lower
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        levels without my doing any water changes during that period. Maybe it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because I had plants in my tank? Perhaps Barb will see fluctuating levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        too. (Anyone else out there see fluctuation in nitrates without water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The nitrates were reading 80 ppm before I did the change, and were below 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the day after the water change (I guessed at a 60 ppm level, because it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        slightly darker than the 40 ppm color) and I went ahead and put my first two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish in anyway. 80 ppm is in the "stress" level but provided it is not for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        prolonged period it will probably be okay. Some fish are said to be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sensitive to nitrates than others... these are the ones that usually come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with a description that includes "only add to a well established tank"...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and I would wait until you can maintain 20 ppm to add those kinds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I actually did another water change on Day 22 (which was a Saturday) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reduce the nitrates some more, and to get onto a cycle where Saturdays would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be my tank maintenance days (since I work). Nitrates have been 40 ppm or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lower ever since that time. I added three more fish on day 29, May 22nd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (first 2 were bought locally and other 3 were shipped). I didn't get any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spikes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb, Robb is right on the money - just do a 50% change of water, and since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you don't have any fish to mess up the bottom, don't bother to vacuum your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel. And, even if you do the water change earlier, don't stop adding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ammonia (be it every day, like I do, or every two days like Robb) until the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        day Before you are ready to add your fish. It is my understanding that if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you stop adding ammonia to the tank, your bacteria that are feeding on it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will die off from starvation. The fish will "add the ammonia" for you, after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this... after they eat. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:04:14 -0600
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Captain Kidd" <captainkidd@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When I myself do a fishless cycle my Nitrates have been around 100. I do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        50-60% water change and the nitrates go away. It won't hurt the bacteria if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you leave your gravel alone. Just suck the water and don't stir up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel. Last time I did a fishless cycle (ended last weekend) my nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were only about 20, so I did a smaller water change, about 20% and tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the next day and they were at 5 and then I added my 4 Dwarf gourami's and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of today they are all fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:55:39 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I quit putting ammonia in the tank now, are the tests going to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        down to zero on ammonia and nitrates eventually? Isn't that when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm to do a complete water change? Wouldn't that get rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrates? I definitely wouldn't put ANY fish in the tank until it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was safe. This is my new 25 gallon Eclipse tank, pegged as a home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for Diamond tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 04:02:04 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was thinking the water change needed to be close to 100%, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glad to have this information. I have just been confused about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        exactly when to STOP putting the ammonia in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:07:41 -0600
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Captain Kidd" <captainkidd@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello Barb.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The few times I've done this, I just added the ammonia every other day until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I took a test and they were at zero, the I tested nitrites and if they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at zero, I would added one to two time the amount of ammonia I've been added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and then test the next day and every time it's been at zero.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Then I would do a LARGE water change, like 50 or 60% and that would take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        care of the Nitrates. Then I'll add 25% of the total number of fish I plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        on adding (you can add less if you wish). Then I'd wait 3 or 4 weeks and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        add the next 25% and then do it two more time to have the full fish load.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        After I add the first 25% of fish I still do tests every other day to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure I don't have a MINI cycle and so far the 3 tanks I have I've been lucky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and have not lost a fish in 4 months.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Barbara Linden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting ammonia in tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        biological filters


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I quit putting ammonia in the tank now, are the tests going to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        down to zero on ammonia and nitrates eventually? Isn't that when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm to do a complete water change? Wouldn't that get rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrates? I definitely wouldn't put ANY fish in the tank until it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was safe. This is my new 25 gallon Eclipse tank, pegged as a home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for Diamond tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:11:06 -0600
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Captain Kidd" <captainkidd@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've never done that high. It would be a nightmare on a large tank. Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other may have done it different, I just try and do what works for me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pass the info along. Remember just test the water and if you don't get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        numbers you are looking for change more water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is what I love about doing a fishless cycle, you can mess up and you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have no fish to hurt :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5739 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 427
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey, Barb, if my dwarf gouramis had not bred, I wouldn't have even one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now... I had 4, but believe that the male literally harassed all three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        females to death, wanting to mate, and then defending the nest; after the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fry were free swimming I found him dead as well. :-( Then all the fry except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one apparently very crafty female were eaten by my five "golden white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clouds"... golden pigs, they should be called. I wish I could have gotten a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        male out of the batch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I must have all one sex of the "white clouds"... they have all been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        schooling around since May (first in my pond, and then in my tank when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        got oppressively hot in August) without laying any eggs at all. And I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disappointed, because I was curious about the spawning behavior.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If people have types of fish that are not easy to find in local pet stores,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and they are able to successfully breed and raise them, other people will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buy them on Aquabid. (You aren't likely to make a living off of them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        though.) I bought my Endler's there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And since I have 3 males and four female Endlers, I hope for some babies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but I will probably keep them all. (Or at least all the ones that the pigs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't eat!) They don't live long, and raising up the younger generation sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beats buying more when the others die from "old age" within a year or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another alternative for homes for fry - fish stores. Well, some fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stores - my daughter Erin was able to find a sweet lady at a local fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        store in Savannah who would take her fry off her hands. (Chain pet store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wouldn't take them, though.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message: 7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:57:08 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Lots of baby fishies...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I want to AVOID having baby fish, and am amazed at all the people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        who are trying to propagate more. Where in the world do you find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        homes for all of them??? Unless you have a website and sell "big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time" on the internet, there are just so many local homes looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for fishies. Educate me!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5740 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: possible amonia spike bleeding hearts with red on the underside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok after looking at my aquarium makng sure all was at peace i noticed the bleeding hearts had some red on the underneath of there jaw areas so i off course tested the water like i have been taught the only thing that changed was amonia from 0 to .25 everything else is still at 0 with my pH at 7.8 the fish lady was tlaking about my algae eater that seems to have septo shock the vessles around his face and on his fins are all red and visible.. anyone know about this.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5741 From: msaathof Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi everybody. I just became a member of the group and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question I am hoping somebody can help me with......

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday and the leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        already starting to turn brown. My water is fine, I have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and I added fertilizer when I got home. Is it normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to be shocked when being put in a new aquarium. I have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to keep live plants before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5742 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yep at one time i had 5 and all were the same but the albino one off course.. mabye the fact that they were bought all at diffrent times.. not sure.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have you ever had more than those 2 cories together?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is a huge debate in itself, and all fish are individuals...but I will have to agree with people on their schooling.  I have 2 types in my 55 gallon, and they tend to stick to 2 groups (pandas and juhlis).  But the more you have, especially w/ like coloring, the more schooling behavior you will see.  The behavior in mine changes every time I make the schools larger, I plan on having 6 of each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But that's just my view and experience, LoL.  After what I have seen mine do, I prefer the behavior that shows w/ at least 4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5743 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks so very much for this info, Audrey...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Heaven forbid I starve my bacteria to death...!! So, back to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ammonia I go! I am SOOOO glad I bought this good test kit that was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recommended. I feel like a chemist everytime I get out those test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tubes! I'll be patient...it will be worth the wait to have a safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank for my baby Diamonds.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        THANKS AGAIN!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Archer" <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That is an excellent question, Paul - I don't know the answer. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nitrates ranged up and down from 80 to 160 on my test strip for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > week of my cycle; I found it curious that they were fluctuating to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lower
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > levels without my doing any water changes during that period.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > because I had plants in my tank? Perhaps Barb will see fluctuating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > too. (Anyone else out there see fluctuation in nitrates without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > changes?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The nitrates were reading 80 ppm before I did the change, and were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        below 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the day after the water change (I guessed at a 60 ppm level,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > slightly darker than the 40 ppm color) and I went ahead and put my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish in anyway. 80 ppm is in the "stress" level but provided it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > prolonged period it will probably be okay. Some fish are said to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sensitive to nitrates than others... these are the ones that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with a description that includes "only add to a well established
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank"...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and I would wait until you can maintain 20 ppm to add those kinds.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I actually did another water change on Day 22 (which was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Saturday) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reduce the nitrates some more, and to get onto a cycle where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Saturdays would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be my tank maintenance days (since I work). Nitrates have been 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ppm or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lower ever since that time. I added three more fish on day 29, May
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        22nd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (first 2 were bought locally and other 3 were shipped). I didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spikes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb, Robb is right on the money - just do a 50% change of water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you don't have any fish to mess up the bottom, don't bother to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vacuum your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel. And, even if you do the water change earlier, don't stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        adding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ammonia (be it every day, like I do, or every two days like Robb)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        until the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > day Before you are ready to add your fish. It is my understanding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you stop adding ammonia to the tank, your bacteria that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeding on it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will die off from starvation. The fish will "add the ammonia" for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you, after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this... after they eat. ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one question for this method.....how are ytou going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > get rid of the 160ppm of nitrates without losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria? as anything above 70ppm is toxic to fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just curious,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _____________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ___
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:04:14 -0600
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Captain Kidd" <captainkidd@p...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > When I myself do a fishless cycle my Nitrates have been around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        100. I do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 50-60% water change and the nitrates go away. It won't hurt the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you leave your gravel alone. Just suck the water and don't stir
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel. Last time I did a fishless cycle (ended last weekend) my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were only about 20, so I did a smaller water change, about 20% and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the next day and they were at 5 and then I added my 4 Dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gourami's and as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of today they are all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _____________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ___
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:55:39 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If I quit putting ammonia in the tank now, are the tests going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > down to zero on ammonia and nitrates eventually? Isn't that when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm to do a complete water change? Wouldn't that get rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nitrates? I definitely wouldn't put ANY fish in the tank until it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was safe. This is my new 25 gallon Eclipse tank, pegged as a home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for Diamond tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 04:02:04 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was thinking the water change needed to be close to 100%, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > glad to have this information. I have just been confused about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exactly when to STOP putting the ammonia in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~O
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:07:41 -0600
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Captain Kidd" <captainkidd@p...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hello Barb.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The few times I've done this, I just added the ammonia every other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        day until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I took a test and they were at zero, the I tested nitrites and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at zero, I would added one to two time the amount of ammonia I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and then test the next day and every time it's been at zero.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Then I would do a LARGE water change, like 50 or 60% and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > care of the Nitrates. Then I'll add 25% of the total number of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish I plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on adding (you can add less if you wish). Then I'd wait 3 or 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weeks and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add the next 25% and then do it two more time to have the full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish load.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > After I add the first 25% of fish I still do tests every other day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure I don't have a MINI cycle and so far the 3 tanks I have I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been lucky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and have not lost a fish in 4 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Barbara Linden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting ammonia in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If I quit putting ammonia in the tank now, are the tests going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > down to zero on ammonia and nitrates eventually? Isn't that when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm to do a complete water change? Wouldn't that get rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nitrates? I definitely wouldn't put ANY fish in the tank until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was safe. This is my new 25 gallon Eclipse tank, pegged as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for Diamond tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:11:06 -0600
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Captain Kidd" <captainkidd@p...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've never done that high. It would be a nightmare on a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank. Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other may have done it different, I just try and do what works for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        me and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pass the info along. Remember just test the water and if you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > numbers you are looking for change more water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This is what I love about doing a fishless cycle, you can mess up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have no fish to hurt :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5744 From: Walter Cain Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wouldn't worry about it. In my experiences I have found that swords stree out easy. They should start to look better in about 1-2 weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Walter

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        msaathof <msaathof@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi everybody.  I just became a member of the group and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question I am hoping somebody can help me with......

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday and the leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        already starting to turn brown.  My water is fine, I have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and I added fertilizer when I got home.  Is it normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to be shocked when being put in a new aquarium.  I have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to keep live plants before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Michael




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5745 From: straubtyler Date: 10/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they dont change sex. all loo female when young the males devlop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when they get to be breeding age. some devlop later than others. so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a fish that looks female may seem to change into a male but it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        always male

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The platy did look on the fat side maybe she is pregnant. Will the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fry survive?? I don't know how she became pregnant cause I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Molly WAS a female she was pregnant when I got her. Live bearers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > switch sexes right??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crickit99@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have swordtails, so very similar to your fish. When the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        females
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > give birth, they do act different. I always worry about them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I spaz over my fish, LoL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My last female was very inactive, looked like she was about to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > die... But she's fine now. She just stayed hidden and avoided the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The females can have babies about every 30 days. They will get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pretty fat, although I still can't always tell with mine. The last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one having babies was the smallest and thinnest one I have...?!?!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5746 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Clown digging Holes???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Our biggest Clown Loach is digging a hole in the gravel. So far it is almost an inch deep. Anyone got any ideas why???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        107 Litre (28 US Gallons) Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, ain't they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 Litre (8 US Gallons) Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        19 Litre (5 US Gallons) waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        125 Litre (33 US Gallons) Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cycling ready for Apple Snails and Fry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Other Pets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Jack Russell's, 1 African Grey Parrot, 1 Chameleon and 1 Petri Gecko.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5747 From: harry perry Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: An excellent fry sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Check out the hydro sponge especially the "pancake" style. http://www.jehmco.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5748 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Ray Re: something different about danio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon, The Red Fin Minor Tetra is one of the less common Tetras in the aquarium trade, very closely related to the Serpae Tetra. There is a group of seven closely related Tetras under the name of "Serpa-salmler" (Serpae Characin) -- Characin referring to the name of the Tetra family of Characidae. Not to get too involved with nomenclature, this general group called Callistus species includes the Bentosi Tetra, Serpae Tetra, Callistus Tetra, Copelandi Tetra, Minor Tetra, Rosaceous Tetra and Ornatus Tetra, all sub-species of Callistus. Some ichthyologists include your Bleeding Heart Tetra (Erythrostigma, formerly Rubrostigma) in with this group as well, so you can see this fish is closely related to the rest of this group of fish as well. Didn't mean to get too involved with fish nomenclature, but just wanted to show you how closely the group of these particular Tetras are related. Ray   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5749 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think I heard that it takes about a month for a plant to become established in a tank, and I agree with it.  I bought 2 amazon swords and put them in my tank.  It took one about a month to start growing leaves, and now it is looking really good.  The second is still not doing well after several months, but I got 2 for the price of one because both looked bad when I got them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi everybody.  I just became a member of the group and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          question I am hoping somebody can help me with......

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday and the leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          already starting to turn brown.  My water is fine, I have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and I added fertilizer when I got home.  Is it normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to be shocked when being put in a new aquarium.  I have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to keep live plants before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5750 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: as of friday something different about d...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Any one of the group of red-finned Tetras, including the Minor, is an excellent, peaceful communtiy aquarium fish which tends to school as per most Tetras. I've found a few things that seem to determine whether they'll school or not; the size of the tank has something to do with it -- the larger the tank, the more apt they are to school. The size of the group also has a bearing on whether they'll school, with a minumum of five (or more) of one species more apt to school rather than just two or three individuals. It will probably be pointed out that there are exceptions to this, and yes, these are generalities but at least a guideline. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5751 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Clown digging Holes???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It's how they hide in nature, after all, if you could dig in and hide in a world of hungry predators wouldn't you? remember, they only have crushing plates in their mouth not true teeth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          BA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Our biggest Clown Loach is digging a hole in the gravel. So far it is almost an inch deep. Anyone got any ideas why???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony in the UK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          107 Litre (28 US Gallons) Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red-finned Shark, 3 Clown Loaches, 1 Lamp eye Tetra, 5 Golden Danios, 15 Female Guppies (most about 10mm long), 2 Male Guppies, 9 Female Mollies (3 adult the rest babies), 3 Male Mollies, 4 Platies, 10, Neon Tetras, 1 Sailfin Plec, 2 Firemouths, 2 1/2" Angels (new additions, ain't they cute!!!....lol)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          30 Litre (8 US Gallons) Biorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Approx 7 male Guppies, 4 Male Mollies, And baby apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          19 Litre (5 US Gallons) waterholme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          7 Green Barbs, 1 Pygmy Puffer. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          125 Litre (33 US Gallons) Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cycling ready for Apple Snails and Fry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Other Pets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 Jack Russell's, 1 African Grey Parrot, 1 Chameleon and 1 Petri Gecko.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5752 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A female platy can have up to 4 or 5 births from one fertilization. So it is possible, she was already pregnant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5753 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Digest Number 426
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           ---- original post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          eat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---- end original post ---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It sounds like your platie is sick ... could you describe in better detail the white spot on her side? Does it look like sugar crystals (ich) or does it look more fuzzy and mold-ish (fungus)? I've noticed in my platie/molly tank that whenever one gets sick, the others (of either species) will chase the sick one around and nibble at it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you can, isolate the sick platie into a "hospital tank", and if you can give more information about the white spot we can give you treatment information.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- original post -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           And a molly mate?  I've got three female mollies, one red and black,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          one black and white, and one silver.  And I have one orange platy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But all the sudden, the mollies are starting to look pregnant.  These
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          were given to me about a month ago by a guy tearing down his tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          while he's in Iraq, and as far as I know, he never had any male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mollies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           ----- end original post -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           If platies and mollies can mate, mine never have cross-bred. Platies and swordtails can interbreed, but as far as I know, mollies and platies are too far removed to inter-breed. (I keep both platies and mollies, have done so since January.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Livebearers can store sperm from a mating for several months. So, the females could have mated while still in the store. In fact, most livebearer females you buy in a store will already be pregnant unless they were kept isolated from males all their lives. What livebearers will do is store sperm, and then release batches of fry once a month for several months until their built up stored supply of sperm has been exhausted. Now some people in this list state that they CAN interbreed, but like I said, I've kept nothing but platies and mollies (and a plecostamus for a short time) since I started my aquarium, and mine have NOT interbred.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5754 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Ray Re: something different about danio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So since those fish are new at the store and she said they might not be carring them would it be good to get some or will they come around again... or how rare are they.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon, The Red Fin Minor Tetra is one of the less common Tetras in the aquarium trade, very closely related to the Serpae Tetra. There is a group of seven closely related Tetras under the name of "Serpa-salmler" (Serpae Characin) -- Characin referring to the name of the Tetra family of Characidae. Not to get too involved with nomenclature, this general group called Callistus species includes the Bentosi Tetra, Serpae Tetra, Callistus Tetra, Copelandi Tetra, Minor Tetra, Rosaceous Tetra and Ornatus Tetra, all sub-species of Callistus. Some ichthyologists include your Bleeding Heart Tetra (Erythrostigma, formerly Rubrostigma) in with this group as well, so you can see this fish is closely related to the rest of this group of fish as well. Didn't mean to get too involved with fish nomenclature, but just wanted to show you how closely the group of these particular Tetras are related. Ray   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5755 From: crickit99 Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Six gallon eclipse (cories)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You may have Corydoras agassizii, if it has the black around the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          eyes... But there are many types and many look very similar. Here are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pic's of many types:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/callicht/corydora/g_thumbs.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have come to realize that stores often have fish misnamed, amoung
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          other incorrect information that's around. I just mention that since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          some cories are like that, and so many common names are used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          incorrectly for many fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And don't get me wrong, I have impulse fish buying problems, LoL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But I also force myself to think first, as I don't want to bring home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a fish that won't work in my tanks. I have a huge problem w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          puffers, as they have to be in species tanks (or solitary)... which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just makes me buy more tanks...!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          By forums, I mean sites where you register and post on message
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          boards. I'll send you some info off list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5756 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          very true, i know guppies can have three birthings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          from one mating as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- crickit99@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > A female platy can have up to 4 or 5 births from one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fertilization. So it is possible, she was already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pregnant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5757 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just remove the brown leaves at the base and let the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          healthy stuff grow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- msaathof <msaathof@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi everybody. I just became a member of the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > question I am hoping somebody can help me with......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > already starting to turn brown. My water is fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and I added fertilizer when I got home. Is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to be shocked when being put in a new aquarium. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to keep live plants before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5758 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Our ancient four year old betta (going on five) has just met his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          potential mate face to face. I was expecting some flaring, some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nipping, chasing...etc..but so far, they have nosed each other fairly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gently and then ignored each other. He did do a male guppy-like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          dance at her once, but then lost interest and started eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bloodworms. Are these two just really compatible? Or are they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          feeling each other out before the battles begin? She did flare at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          him once...but then got distracted and investigated a plant. Can we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          leave them alone together? Or only have supervised conjugal visits?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They are in a betta hex for now, though they each have their own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          twenty gallon community tank normally, I didn't want any potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          eggs and fry to get eaten and lost in the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5759 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you could try just the two of them in a twenty, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would not put 2 bettas in a betta hex unsupervised.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Our ancient four year old betta (going on five) has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > just met his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > potential mate face to face. I was expecting some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > flaring, some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > nipping, chasing...etc..but so far, they have nosed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > each other fairly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gently and then ignored each other. He did do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > male guppy-like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > dance at her once, but then lost interest and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > started eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bloodworms. Are these two just really compatible?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Or are they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > feeling each other out before the battles begin?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > She did flare at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > him once...but then got distracted and investigated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a plant. Can we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > leave them alone together? Or only have supervised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > conjugal visits?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > They are in a betta hex for now, though they each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have their own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > twenty gallon community tank normally, I didn't want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > any potential
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > eggs and fry to get eaten and lost in the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5760 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, I don't have a spare twenty gallon tank (or moolah to get one),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so we'll just keep an eye on the two in the hex. It has a removable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wall portion so when we go to bed I'll stick that in there to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          them apart through the night. They still have shown no aggression,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you could try just the two of them in a twenty, but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > would not put 2 bettas in a betta hex unsupervised.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5761 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Algone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have been reading about using Algone in aquariums. Have any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you used it, and do you recommend it??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5762 From: paul helms Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i meant in the one you already had.lol

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Well, I don't have a spare twenty gallon tank (or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > moolah to get one),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > so we'll just keep an eye on the two in the hex. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > has a removable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wall portion so when we go to bed I'll stick that in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > them apart through the night. They still have shown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > no aggression,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you could try just the two of them in a twenty,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > would not put 2 bettas in a betta hex
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > unsupervised.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5763 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You don't need a glass tank to breed bettas! :)  Any plastic sterilite box will work.  3 gallon ones are about 3-5 dollars I think, and are the correct depth for breeding bettas.  They also give horizontal swimming room for the parents, especially the female, to swim away from the male.  Just wash them out with some water, fill them with water from a tank, add some kind of floating plants, and that should do.  Those little hex things are not worthy of the apple snail that provides infusoria for the betta fry... plus if I remember right they don't have a cover.  Any betta fry that some how managed to hatch would die immediately after the first breath.  I would send them back to their tanks and wait till I had done enough research and got the proper setup before I let them see each other again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I don't have a spare twenty gallon tank (or moolah to get one),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so we'll just keep an eye on the two in the hex.  It has a removable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wall portion so when we go to bed I'll stick that in there to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them apart through the night.  They still have shown no aggression,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5764 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Can a Platy - livebearer hybrids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a recent article in AFM, it was stated that the livebearers that can cross usually give birth to deformed fry.  I know there are people who think they have hybrid fish, but I am becoming skeptical of who the real parents are.  Maybe they need to go on a day-time talk show?  The usual length of time stated for the common livebearers to continue having fry after last contact with a male is 6 months, so unless the female has never been in contact with a male of its own species, I wouldn't call any fry it has a hybrid for 7 months, even if it looks like a hybrid and even if it is deformed.  Before 7 months you just can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also think hybrid fry should be kept out of the regular market unless they are kept away from true species because they could easily pollute the entire population and lead to even weaker versions of the already-weak livebearers available in stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then there is the platy.  Some of them are already hybrids of real platys and swordtails.  The status of livebearers is worse than danios in my experience.  I have never had one live more than a few months, although their fry are usually pretty strong.  They are so easy to over breed without any outside help, they have just destroyed their own genetic structure.  The fact that they continue having fry for so long even after contact with a male makes it even harder for breeders to do their job.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5765 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- msaathof <msaathof@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi everybody.  I just became a member of the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > question I am hoping somebody can help me with......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > already starting to turn brown.  My water is fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and I added fertilizer when I got home.  Is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to be shocked when being put in a new aquarium.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to keep live plants before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Michael

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's advisable that you remove ny old leaves, even ones that look healthy, from a newly purchased large echinodorus and to even trim the roots as these are not yet useful to the plant for its first few days in its new home. Transplant has damaged the fine root hairs by which nutrients are taken up. While the plant is regrowing new roots and root hairs and adjusting to your tank, it will be feeding off reserve food stored in its rhizome. That is why when purchasing a plant, it is not just a matter of checking for healthy leaves but for a long and fat rhizome or bulb as well and looking any signs of rot or damage down there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Immediately remove any dying leaves. They will only be a burden to the plant and a source of pollution for your tank. I know it seems brutal but when I bought an Echinodorus uruguayensis, I had to strip of more than 2/3 of its leaves (more than 30). Some of the old leaves that were left behind died quickly but the plant has also brought out new leaves and it looks like it's going to recover rapidly. The same practice is also applicable to cryptocorynes, which more often than not lose many of its old leaves anyway due to "cryptocoryne disease", which is the plant's own way of removing the old leaves prior to growth in a new setting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Only start feeding fertilizer if you see new growth. Nutrients won't be of much help if the plant hasn't regrown new leaves and roots yet. If after a week you still don't see any new leaves, try pullling out one and check for root rot. With healthy plants this won't usually occur. Keep us posted!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Rod


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5766 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Freshwater Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They're great shrimp to add as scavengers. Easy to maintain and breed as well. They grow only up to 2 centimeters long. Depending upon tank conditions and food, they may adopt other colors aside from translucent gray and show up as green, red, dark brown or blue or spotted and speckled or with a cream stripe along the back. Their nauplii are great for raising fish fry but they will snack on fish eggs if given the chance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              joesalpepe <joesalpepe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Doe anyoe have any info on ghostshrimp? I am thinking of adding some to my community tank with the hope they would act as scavengers.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5767 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 427
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ---- snipped post ---- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Maybe my Platy is pregnant, by my black Molly??  That is maybe why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              she will not eat and is submisive???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               ----- end snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I replied to your situation yesterday, stating that it sounded like your platie was sick (possibly with ich or a fungus) and that if you replied with more information about the "white spot" on the platie, we could offer more information regarding treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I still have NEVER seen a platie and molly interbreed, and they are all that I have kept since January.  I would love to see some documentation/proof of the possibility of them interbreeding, personally, since all I have seen that comes close is photos of fry of platie/swordtail interbreeding. Paul? Any other info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I want to AVOID having baby fish, and am amazed at all the people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              who are trying to propagate more.  Where in the world do you find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              homes for all of them???   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ---- end snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb, you can try at schools. Especially elementary schools. A lot of teachers enjoy keeping a smallish aquarium in the classroom. Most people, however, have some sort of agreement with their LFS where they bring fry in for some sort of a store credit. When mine have babies that I don't have space for, I bring them to a small LFS that is about a half hour's drive near me. She doesn't offer store credit, but I get the peace of mind knowing that the babies are going to a NICE LFS where they won't be overcrowded. (The LFS I take my babies to is the only place in town where I have seen male bettas in about 20-30 gallon community tanks  instead of crowded into those little plastic cups.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My livebreeders have apparently taken a break on the "baby making" ... at the moment the only fry I've had to deal with for a couple of months is a solitary Mickey Mouse Platy ... which I'm keeping. *grin* It's just too cute and keeps my two Red Wags and adult Mickey Mouse Platy company. (My other adult Red Wag Platy died a few weeks ago.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5768 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The betta hex we have is basically an elongated hexagonal plastic one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gallon cube with a divider that can be put in and removed. It has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cover with air holes in it, so they can't jump out. It cost about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              two bucks, which Is why I got it instead of trying to jury rig
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              something here at home. I also have a lot of clutter on the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the twenty gallon tanks that I was told would loose the eggs if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they fell, and probably a bit too much current flow for the bubble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nest. I was just teasing about the twenty gallon tank to Paul. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have two twenty gallon tanks that are their normal homes. We have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              been researching about breeding bettas for the last year, since my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              daughter decided she wanted babies...but all the research led me to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              beleive that there would be quite a bit of aggression between the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bettas.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Methuselah is already an atypical betta, being nearly five years old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              now, so I'm a little uncertain why there is no agressive behavior
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              between the two at all, but I'm not unhappy with the whole affair.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'd just as soon not have ripped fins. I'm just wondering if he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              too old to fight, and if he's too old to breed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I dunno...today they are still quite compatible, after spending all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              day together yesterday under close supervision. The female has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              flared a couple of times, and methuselah flared once or twice...but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other than that, they seem to be just swimming around together or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ignoring each other. No nipping or anythying. MEthuselah does act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              like a male guppy from time to time, curving sideways and shaking his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fins, but so far Falling Leaf seems unimpressed with him, and would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              rather nip on the bloodworms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just wondering, why would you say that any fry that managed to hatch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              would die immediately after their first breath?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5769 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Patrick_OT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hey, this is off topic, but your posts are very hard for me to read,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              since they run right into the advertisements and sometimes off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              page. Do you have your preferences set to wrap posts? Or is this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              just a refusal of microsoft explorere to meld with some other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              operating system on my puters part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5770 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 427
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the suggestion, Erin...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My sister in law just retired from teaching, and I know she had LOTS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of different critters in her classroom, and for seven years I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              talks at our middle school on how to be a responsible pet owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm just hoping against hope that I can avoid having fry and having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the stress of trying to place them. I can NOT add any more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aquariums, my hubby would KILL me!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ---- snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Maybe my Platy is pregnant, by my black Molly?? That is maybe why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > she will not eat and is submisive???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- end snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I replied to your situation yesterday, stating that it sounded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              like your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > platie was sick (possibly with ich or a fungus) and that if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              replied with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > more information about the "white spot" on the platie, we could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              offer more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > information regarding treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I still have NEVER seen a platie and molly interbreed, and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are all that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have kept since January. I would love to see some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              documentation/proof of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the possibility of them interbreeding, personally, since all I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that comes close is photos of fry of platie/swordtail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              interbreeding. Paul?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Any other info on this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I want to AVOID having baby fish, and am amazed at all the people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > who are trying to propagate more. Where in the world do you find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > homes for all of them???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ---- end snipped post ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb, you can try at schools. Especially elementary schools. A lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > teachers enjoy keeping a smallish aquarium in the classroom. Most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > however, have some sort of agreement with their LFS where they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bring fry in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for some sort of a store credit. When mine have babies that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > space for, I bring them to a small LFS that is about a half hour's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              drive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > near me. She doesn't offer store credit, but I get the peace of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mind knowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that the babies are going to a NICE LFS where they won't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              overcrowded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (The LFS I take my babies to is the only place in town where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > male bettas in about 20-30 gallon community tanks instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              crowded into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > those little plastic cups.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > My livebreeders have apparently taken a break on the "baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              making" ... at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the moment the only fry I've had to deal with for a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              months is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > solitary Mickey Mouse Platy ... which I'm keeping. *grin* It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              just too cute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and keeps my two Red Wags and adult Mickey Mouse Platy company.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (My other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > adult Red Wag Platy died a few weeks ago.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 2 Red Wag Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5771 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Patrick_OT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't know.  I don't read on-line very often because on some of the computers I use at home or school most of the messages run into the ads.  I don't know why.  I do most of my communication through an email program called incredimail.  I don't know if that is the problem or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hey, this is off topic, but your posts are very hard for me to read,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                since they run right into the advertisements and sometimes off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                page.  Do you have your preferences set to wrap posts?  Or is this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just a refusal of microsoft explorere to meld with some other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                operating system on my puters part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5772 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Patrick_OT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just for the record, I'd been having a terrible time reading the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                posts, as well. Sometimes I email the post to myself, and the ad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                disappears, but sometimes not. Frustrating! I'm NOT a computer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                person...I know even less about computers than fishies!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I don't know. I don't read on-line very often because on some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > computers I use at home or school most of the messages run into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the ads. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't know why. I do most of my communication through an email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                program
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > called incredimail. I don't know if that is the problem or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hey, this is off topic, but your posts are very hard for me to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                read,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > since they run right into the advertisements and sometimes off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > page. Do you have your preferences set to wrap posts? Or is this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just a refusal of microsoft explorere to meld with some other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > operating system on my puters part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5773 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, typically of an eleven year old, my daughter felt sorry for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                two bettas being confined in one small tank, so she asked me to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them both in her twenty gallon tank. I warned her that any betta fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would most likely not survive the tank inhabitants, but she seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                okay with that. So...our betta breeding experiment has come to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rather abrupt end...LOL. My other daughter is delighted, since this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                means she can get a RED betta for her fish tank, now. Kids. Seems a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fairly harmless way to have an unsuccessful breeding foray, no?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                When we released them into the big tank, they didn't seperate, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are still swimming very close to each other. Methuselah has started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                blowing bubbles, though. Who knows?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Anyway, now that the one gallon hex is free, I was thinking that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                maybe it would make a good hospital tank for sick fishies, or for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                quarantining new fish? The only thing is that there is no pump or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                light for it, or heater...should I scrap the whole notion? And if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do decide to make it a nurse tank, should I keep it full of water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                get it cycled with a few small plants and snails and such so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there won't be any new tank syndrome in it? If it isn't suitable at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                all, I might just use it to transport our inevitable overpopulation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of livebearers back and forth to the folks who want them, rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                using plastic bags.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5774 From: paul helms Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you are going yo use it as a hosiptal tank it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                always best to have it fully running as a small system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is ready to go, but that would mean that you need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to get filtration and if you add plants a light.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well, typically of an eleven year old, my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > felt sorry for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > two bettas being confined in one small tank, so she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > asked me to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them both in her twenty gallon tank. I warned her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that any betta fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would most likely not survive the tank inhabitants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but she seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > okay with that. So...our betta breeding experiment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > has come to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > rather abrupt end...LOL. My other daughter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > delighted, since this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > means she can get a RED betta for her fish tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > now. Kids. Seems a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fairly harmless way to have an unsuccessful breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > foray, no?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > When we released them into the big tank, they didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seperate, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are still swimming very close to each other.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Methuselah has started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > blowing bubbles, though. Who knows?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Anyway, now that the one gallon hex is free, I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > thinking that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maybe it would make a good hospital tank for sick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fishies, or for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > quarantining new fish? The only thing is that there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is no pump or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > light for it, or heater...should I scrap the whole
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > notion? And if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > do decide to make it a nurse tank, should I keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > full of water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get it cycled with a few small plants and snails and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > such so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > there won't be any new tank syndrome in it? If it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > isn't suitable at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > all, I might just use it to transport our inevitable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > overpopulation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of livebearers back and forth to the folks who want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them, rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > using plastic bags.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5775 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Patrick or anyone else help on red gills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yours come through fine with me... i have aol not sure if they are more compatible or what not.. mostly incredimail just offers the icons and fantasy stuff not so much the format unless you get really tricky with it... any how patrick your response on adding salt to the ladys aquarium that had 2 ppm of nitrates i you said it helps gills.. i have read 3 books and looked online and cant find the reason, a disease, or anything about why this is happening.. the septcemina doesnt seem to apply as there are no leasons in any of my fish... the alagae eater sill has the red visible blood vessels.. but  my main concern is 3 bleeding heart tetras.. their gills are very red and the red seems to run on some of th fins as well.. I just cant figure out what to do... i did my last waster change on tuesday night i think i should simmmer on the water changes for atleast another week as i have done so many.. is it jsut stress of all the water changes my water tests out normal... any ideas... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't know.  I don't read on-line very often because on some of the computers I use at home or school most of the messages run into the ads.  I don't know why.  I do most of my communication through an email program called incredimail.  I don't know if that is the problem or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5776 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ah, I was afraid of that. Guess it's gonna be a transport system,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                then. Well, no harm done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if you are going yo use it as a hosiptal tank it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > always best to have it fully running as a small system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that is ready to go, but that would mean that you need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to get filtration and if you add plants a light.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5777 From: dannomom Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello all: I have an aquarium I set up for the kids. It is a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gal. tall and has undergravel filters. I have 2 glass fish and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                neons in it right now. The ph has been high and I haven't understood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                why but now I have brownish algae growing on the plastic plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel?!? This can't be good. I do not have an algae eater, but do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they even eat brown algae? What do I do? Thanx in advance. Sam
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5778 From: straubtyler Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Patrick_OT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I also have trouble reading some posts. I just click reply and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                opens in a new window with no ad. If you choose not to reply just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                click cancel or back in the browser. its not the best way to do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but it works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just for the record, I'd been having a terrible time reading the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > posts, as well. Sometimes I email the post to myself, and the ad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > disappears, but sometimes not. Frustrating! I'm NOT a computer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > person...I know even less about computers than fishies!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I don't know. I don't read on-line very often because on some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > computers I use at home or school most of the messages run into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the ads. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > don't know why. I do most of my communication through an email
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > program
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > called incredimail. I don't know if that is the problem or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hey, this is off topic, but your posts are very hard for me to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > read,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > since they run right into the advertisements and sometimes off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > page. Do you have your preferences set to wrap posts? Or is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > just a refusal of microsoft explorere to meld with some other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > operating system on my puters part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5779 From: straubtyler Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you don't have live plants leave the light off except when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                looking at the fish. or add live plants they will take some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stuff out of the water that makes the alge grow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "dannomom"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <sandi.tobin@v...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hello all: I have an aquarium I set up for the kids. It is a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gal. tall and has undergravel filters. I have 2 glass fish and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > neons in it right now. The ph has been high and I haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                understood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > why but now I have brownish algae growing on the plastic plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel?!? This can't be good. I do not have an algae eater, but do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they even eat brown algae? What do I do? Thanx in advance. Sam
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5780 From: secretlaw Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: albino eureka cichlids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Both of my females albino eureka had some fries, and I took them out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from their mouths today. Unfortunatly, the fries are not albino. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                am sure the father was albino eureka. Now, is there anyone out there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                knows how to get albino next times?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5781 From: paul helms Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: albino eureka cichlids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they may lighten up as they grow

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- secretlaw <secretlaw@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Both of my females albino eureka had some fries, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I took them out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > from their mouths today. Unfortunatly, the fries are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not albino. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > am sure the father was albino eureka. Now, is there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > anyone out there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > knows how to get albino next times?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5782 From: paul helms Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how long are the lights on?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- dannomom <sandi.tobin@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hello all: I have an aquarium I set up for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > kids. It is a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gal. tall and has undergravel filters. I have 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > glass fish and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > neons in it right now. The ph has been high and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > haven't understood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > why but now I have brownish algae growing on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plastic plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel?!? This can't be good. I do not have an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > algae eater, but do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they even eat brown algae? What do I do? Thanx in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > advance. Sam
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5783 From: Steve Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: putting ammonia in tank and biological filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Audrey,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The idea is to add enough ammonia everyday to reach the 5 ppm of ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                until your readings are 0 ppm for both ammonia and nitrite prior to adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more ammonia, and those reading are maintained for several days. When you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                reduce the amount of ammonia you add, the nitrosoma, which are the consumers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of ammonia will start to shut down, until they reach an equilibrium with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amount of ammonia added. Some of these will simply hibernate, while others
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will die. In turn, the nitrobacter, consumers of nitrite will do the same as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the levels of nitrite are reduced. Then, when you add fish to the tank, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                may reach a stressful level of ammonia and or nitrite, while the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                colonies try to catch up with the amount of ammonia, then nitrites present
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in the environment of your tank. This is no big deal if you add fish slowly,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but if you are more like the average person, you'll hustle off to the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and grab a bunch of fish that will, at least, raise the ammonia above the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                level your bacteria can handle, thus placing additional stress on the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Audrey Archer [mailto:arch1574@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: putting ammonia in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and biological filters


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb, test your water before adding the ammonia each day; keep adding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                same amount of ammonia until your NITRITES are 3 to 5 ppm. Then reduce your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ammonia to half of what you are adding now, and add this reduced amount each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                day. When both nitrItes and ammonia are ZERO when you test it (and since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this test is done BEFORE adding the daily amount, they WILL get down to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                zero - in fact, your ammonia will be zero for some time before your nitrites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                come down to zero), do a 50% water change (to reduce the nitrAtes, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                should be at their peak now), then immediately add the original amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ammonia again. Test your water again after 24 hours, and if ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrites are back to zero, this means the bacteria are at the levels they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                need to be to keep your ammonia and nitrite levels stable, and you are ready
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to stock your tank with your fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And an aside to the person who asked about tweaking your Whisper filter by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                adding an airstone - this is not needed. I may be "new" to the hobby (had my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank only since April) but if your have any substrate in your tanks, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have a "biological filter". You do NOT need to have an undergravel filter or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a bio-wheel, because the gravel and the water already harbor the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                needed to do this; and also, changing out your carbon cartridge will NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eliminate your biological filtering. The only thing that would wipe out this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacteria once it has been established is if you treat your tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                medications that are antibacterial, or put chlorinated water into your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My tank has been stable with zero ammonia and zero nitrites since 18 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                after I cycled it with ammonia, and I have maintained this without any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "special" bacterial filter; I have the cheap power filter that came with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                WalMart tank kit, and it has gotten me through many water changes, and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cartridge rinses (and several changes), and through my adding more fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                adding more plants, getting snails in the plants and having them try to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                over my tank, my fish having baby fish, and now my tank is even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                theoretically "overstocked" because I have thirteen fish and a group of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                small snails; five fish are about 1.5 inches long (white clouds) and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other 8 (seven Endlers and a dwarf gourami) are currently a little under an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                inch, all happily dwelling in a ten gallon planted tank, and my ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrites have NEVER risen beyond the bacterial capacity. (The only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that has not stayed stable is my pH and my CO2, because I foolishly tried to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                monkey with them at the start; but they are stable now, also.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:45 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Putting ammonia in tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Since I definitely want the ammonia to do it's work with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cycling, I guess I need to know exactly how to do it right! Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is the 10th day that I've added a capful daily. Is that enough? Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I stop the ammonia now, and just keep testing until the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrates are zero? If and when that occurs, I'm to do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water change...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if you are adding ammonia daily it will never be 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you may want to find out what the snails are as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > many of them that come on plants are herbivores and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will eat your plant. many of them also breed in great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > numbers. i think amalthea can help you with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > determining what you have better than most on here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Well, it seems that some little snails came riding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in on my second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > internet order of plants. I just noticed them in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycling 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gallon tank. Should I remove them, or leave them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > there? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wasn't planning on having snails, but since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > here now, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > don't want to kill them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Also...I want to double check with you experts. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > adding a capful of ammonia DAILY until my ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and nitrites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > zero?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks again for all your wonderful and muchly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appreciated advice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb







                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5784 From: Steve Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Swordtail females can take over a male gender role and fertilize other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                females when a male is not present. There are some other livebearers who can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do this as well, but it has been sometime since I've seen the literature on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this, so I'd rather not trust my memory to make a list of said species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 6:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Can a Platy



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i have not heard of live bearers changing gender in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the case of mollies, platties or guppies. on the salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water fish, clowns will become female when they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                larger than other males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The platy did look on the fat side maybe she is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pregnant. Will the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fry survive?? I don't know how she became pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cause I know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Molly WAS a female she was pregnant when I got her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Live bearers can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > switch sexes right??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > crickit99@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I have swordtails, so very similar to your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > When the females
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > give birth, they do act different. I always worry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about them, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I spaz over my fish, LoL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > My last female was very inactive, looked like she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was about to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > die... But she's fine now. She just stayed hidden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and avoided the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The females can have babies about every 30 days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > They will get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pretty fat, although I still can't always tell with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mine. The last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one having babies was the smallest and thinnest one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have...?!?! Go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5785 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sounds jsut like you may need to be doing water changes and all the brown algea on little parts of the plants which are plastic hapened with me too when i had plastic plants.. well wait only happened on a certain kind of plastic plants.. the flourscent and very colored one.. i have sense bough live plants and a very expensive silk and more higher quality plants...i would say take them out clean them and do a water change.. your tank can handle some more fish and might help the cycle i would suggest some corys catfish as bottom feeders and a algae eater there are many kinds that eat different types of things... your pet store should be able to help you with those kinds... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello all:   I have an aquarium I set up for the kids.  It is a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gal. tall and has undergravel filters.  I have 2 glass fish and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                neons in it right now.  The ph has been high and I haven't understood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                why but now I have brownish algae growing on the plastic plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gravel?!?  This can't be good.  I do not have an algae eater, but do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they even eat brown algae?  What do I do?  Thanx in advance.   Sam
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5786 From: Steve Date: 10/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Starting with Aquariums, Part VII
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We have talked about a number of things regarding setting up your aquarium,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but we have not mentioned fish very much, so let's talk about the fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                which is probably the first thing you looked at and then decided to set up a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you look at an aquarium that is populated with multiple species, you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                probably notice that some fish stay near the bottom of the tank, some swim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in the mid-water region, and some stay near the top. Though I generally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                divide a tank into three levels, this is not a hard and fast rule, and even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                then, some fish will swim, at times, in all three levels. Like so many other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                things in this hobby, it is merely a rule of thumb.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                When I started this series, I mentioned that one should do a lot of reading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                However, in many fish descriptions in the literature, there is not much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mention of where in the water column fish spend most of their time. If no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mention is made of the water zone, then your observational skills will need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to be called into play. If you have the opportunity to view the tanks of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other people, you can get a good idea of which fish inhabit which zone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Without this help, and for the species that you have not seen other than in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish store tanks (which is really a poor place to observe the habits of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish), take a look at the fish in the pictures you have. In particular, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will wish to pay attention to the mouth. Again, this is a general rule, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the fish can fake you out, with a mouth that looks like one type, but is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                really another.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If a fish has a mouth that points upward, it is a fish that will live in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                upper third of the aquarium. Many livebearers will fit this description. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the mouth is straight out (as opposed to up or down) it most likely will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                live in the middle third of the water column. Many characins will fit here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Finally a fish with a mouth that is pointed downwards will live in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bottom third of the water column. This last is a zone where most catfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                loaches are found.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                When you start to stock your tank, you will want to look for fish that will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                inhabit each of the zones to give your aquarium life throughout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Next time, we will look more at fish and their requirements. As usual, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comments are welcome.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5787 From: shortlid Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales, dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It was weird she started to fell better was swiming around fine then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just droped dead this morning?? maybe she starved casue she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not eat days before??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                livebearers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5788 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The water has to be warm, above 80°F and have a tight lid with no holes in it (plastic wrap).  That makes the air above the water warmer and more humid than the air would be if it was open.  As soon as the bettas take their first breath, they die if the air they breath isn't warm and humid.  That is because of their organ that allows them to breath air requires warm humid air to develop correctly.  Without that organ, they sufficate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A 3 gallon sterrilite box costs less than $2, by the way.  I checked last night because I'm thinking about getting another one for my next breeding of the bettas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The betta hex we have is basically an elongated hexagonal plastic one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallon cube with a divider that can be put in and removed.  It has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cover with air holes in it, so they can't jump out.  It cost about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  two bucks, which Is why I got it instead of trying to jury rig
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  something here at home.  I also have a lot of clutter on the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of the twenty gallon tanks that I was told would loose the eggs if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  they fell, and probably a bit too much current flow for the bubble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nest.  I was just teasing about the twenty gallon tank to Paul.  We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have two twenty gallon tanks that are their normal homes.  We have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  been researching about breeding bettas for the last year, since my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  daughter decided she wanted babies...but all the research led me to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  beleive that there would be quite a bit of aggression between the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bettas. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Methuselah is already an atypical betta, being nearly five years old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  now, so I'm a little uncertain why there is no agressive behavior
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  between the two at all, but I'm not unhappy with the whole affair. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd just as soon not have ripped fins.  I'm just wondering if he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  too old to fight, and if he's too old to breed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I dunno...today they are still quite compatible, after spending all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  day together yesterday under close supervision.  The female has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  flared a couple of times, and methuselah flared once or twice...but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  other than that, they seem to be just swimming around together or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ignoring each other.  No nipping or anythying.  MEthuselah does act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  like a male guppy from time to time, curving sideways and shaking his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fins, but so far Falling Leaf seems unimpressed with him, and would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  rather nip on the bloodworms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wondering, why would you say that any fry that managed to hatch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  would die immediately after their first breath?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5789 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Patrick or anyone else help on red gills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are you sure the red on the bleeding heart tetras isn't just their natural color? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yours come through fine with me... i have aol not sure if they are more compatible or what not.. mostly incredimail just offers the icons and fantasy stuff not so much the format unless you get really tricky with it... any how patrick your response on adding salt to the ladys aquarium that had 2 ppm of nitrates i you said it helps gills.. i have read 3 books and looked online and cant find the reason, a disease, or anything about why this is happening.. the septcemina doesnt seem to apply as there are no leasons in any of my fish... the alagae eater sill has the red visible blood vessels.. but  my main concern is 3 bleeding heart tetras.. their gills are very red and the red seems to run on some of th fins as well.. I just cant figure out what to do... i did my last waster change on tuesday night i think i should simmmer on the water changes for atleast another week as i have done so many.. is it jsut stress of all the water changes my water tests out normal... any ideas... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5790 From: Sarah Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    babies from one of the females.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there is no need to use salt!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    livebearers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5791 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From most of what I've read, which is on-line and not always the most accurate source, swordtail females that change into males are usually late-developing males.  They were always male, but they hadn't developed the outer signs of being a male.  Watching my mollies I noticed that one day I thought maybe they were females, the next day it was clear they were males.  Their "fin" changed shape over night!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Swordtail females can take over a male gender role and fertilize other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      females when a male is not present. There are some other livebearers who can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do this as well, but it has been sometime since I've seen the literature on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this, so I'd rather not trust my memory to make a list of said species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5792 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Betta breeding ...and red gills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      First, betta breeding...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I myself thought I would try to breed bettas, mainly to see if I could do it and if it's something I'd want do long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Question...what were you planning on doing with the babies? I think you might be better off doing as Patrick suggested, or getting a 10 gallon tank for the breeding. Eventually, the male and female offspring would need to be seperated, and if you had them long enough, they would need more space as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I finally found 2 females, and I found a blue steel male w/ great fins at a PetCo. But I need to make sure they are all healthy and conditioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As far as red gills, I do know that a sign of a healthy fish is pink/red gills. But there is a difference between healthy and inflamed, deep red gills. If a tank's ammonia or nitrites are above 0, it's never a good thing and can be a cause. That is why people use hardy fish to cycle a tank (or the fishless cycle). Many fish cannot live through those spikes, as they are very sensitive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I freaked out on my fish (as usual, haha) when I noticed 'red gills' but I then realized their red gills were healthy gills.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5793 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just so I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       amazon sword is not a true aquatic plant so much as a bog plant .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Any "Wild" swords I have seen images of show them with feet wet but not totally submerged for a long  period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't *usually* see them living past say 6 months before they die off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe they live where the amazon floods for a period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But then I'm not a Botanist so I'm not an expert on these plants .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Rodrigo Jr. Marquez wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- msaathof <msaathof@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi everybody.  I just became a member of the group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > question I am hoping somebody can help me with......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > already starting to turn brown.  My water is fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and I added fertilizer when I got home.  Is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to be shocked when being put in a new aquarium.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to keep live plants before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Michael

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's advisable that you remove ny old leaves, even ones that look healthy, from a newly purchased large echinodorus and to even trim the roots as these are not yet useful to the plant for its first few days in its new home. Transplant has damaged the fine root hairs by which nutrients are taken up. While the plant is regrowing new roots and root hairs and adjusting to your tank, it will be feeding off reserve food stored in its rhizome. That is why when purchasing a plant, it is not just a matter of checking for healthy leaves but for a long and fat rhizome or bulb as well and looking any signs of rot or damage down there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Immediately remove any dying leaves. They will only be a burden to the plant and a source of pollution for your tank. I know it seems brutal but when I bought an Echinodorus uruguayensis, I had to strip of more than 2/3 of its leaves (more than 30). Some of the old leaves that were left behind died quickly but the plant has also brought out new leaves and it looks like it's going to recover rapidly. The same practice is also applicable to cryptocorynes, which more often than not lose many of its old leaves anyway due to "cryptocoryne disease", which is the plant's own way of removing the old leaves prior to growth in a new setting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Only start feeding fertilizer if you see new growth. Nutrients won't be of much help if the plant hasn't regrown new leaves and roots yet. If after a week you still don't see any new leaves, try pullling out one and check for root rot. With healthy plants this won't usually occur. Keep us posted!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Rod


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5794 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Greetings Sarah,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      True that most freshwater fish can live without added salt but all freshwater enviroments have some level of salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Salt is also needed for cardiac functions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      BUT if  you use tap water that your house is supplied with you'll have no problem as there is enough salt supplied.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mark 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      babies from one of the females.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there is no need to use salt!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      livebearers.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5795 From: Mark J. Bethke Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: tropical fish tank ? from newbie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't want to point this out but it should be said,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Algae is part of the Natural aquatic habitat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We see so many remedies for algae and methods for getting rid of it and yet we all still have this little problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes you can rid it for a while but it sure seems that eventually it comes back.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But since I have decided to live with it,, it is self controlling. I find it only attaches to older vegetation but not to younger healthy plants leaves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yea your tank with have some seemingly ugly algae  (unless you are like me an find it to be more natural looking)  but it's easy to control when you just use a tooth brush on the tougher leaves and keep the glass clean.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So for what it's worth, algae can be either the plague from "H" "E" Double Hockey sticks  or a part of life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      straubtyler wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if you don't have live plants leave the light off except when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looking at the fish.  or add live plants they will take some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      stuff out of the water that makes the alge grow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "dannomom"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <sandi.tobin@v...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello all:   I have an aquarium I set up for the kids.  It is a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gal. tall and has undergravel filters.  I have 2 glass fish and 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > neons in it right now.  The ph has been high and I haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      understood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > why but now I have brownish algae growing on the plastic plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel?!?  This can't be good.  I do not have an algae eater, but do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they even eat brown algae?  What do I do?  Thanx in advance.   Sam





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5796 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i've had one that i grew from a 3" sample to a 2' tall sample,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      completely submerged for almost 2 years now. i haven't had any problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Oct 4, 2004, at 10:55 AM, Mark J. Bethke wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just so I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  amazon sword is not a true aquatic plant so much as a bog plant .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Any "Wild" swords I have seen images of show them with feet wet but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not totally submerged for a long  period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I don't *usually* see them living past say 6 months before they die
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I believe they live where the amazon floods for a period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > But then I'm not a Botanist so I'm not an expert on these plants .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5797 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my amazon are 2 years old and counting....never had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any problem with them, in fact they split several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      times a year. when they are exposed to lower water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      levels, they can bloom and reproduce like a flower, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      send out runners with several plants on them. one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the only plants that i know of that can live in almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any water level and reporduce in 3 separate manners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and a great consumer of nitrate on top of it all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Mark J. Bethke" <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just so I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > amazon sword is not a true aquatic plant so much as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a bog plant .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Any "Wild" swords I have seen images of show them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with feet wet but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > totally submerged for a long period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I don't *usually* see them living past say 6 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > before they die off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I believe they live where the amazon floods for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > But then I'm not a Botanist so I'm not an expert on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > these plants .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rodrigo Jr. Marquez wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- msaathof <msaathof@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Hi everybody. I just became a member of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > question I am hoping somebody can help me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I purchased 4 amazon sword plants yesterday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > leaves are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > already starting to turn brown. My water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have good light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > and I added fertilizer when I got home. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > normal for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > to be shocked when being put in a new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aquarium. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have never tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > to keep live plants before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > It's advisable that you remove ny old leaves,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > even ones that look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > healthy, from a newly purchased large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > echinodorus and to even trim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the roots as these are not yet useful to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > plant for its first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > few days in its new home. Transplant has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > damaged the fine root
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > hairs by which nutrients are taken up. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the plant is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > regrowing new roots and root hairs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > adjusting to your tank, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > will be feeding off reserve food stored in its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rhizome. That is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > why when purchasing a plant, it is not just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > matter of checking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > for healthy leaves but for a long and fat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > rhizome or bulb as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and looking any signs of rot or damage down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Immediately remove any dying leaves. They will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > only be a burden to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the plant and a source of pollution for your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank. I know it seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > brutal but when I bought an Echinodorus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > uruguayensis, I had to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > strip of more than 2/3 of its leaves (more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > than 30). Some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > old leaves that were left behind died quickly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but the plant has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > also brought out new leaves and it looks like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it's going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > recover rapidly. The same practice is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > applicable to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cryptocorynes, which more often than not lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > many of its old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > leaves anyway due to "cryptocoryne disease",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > which is the plant's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > own way of removing the old leaves prior to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > growth in a new setting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Only start feeding fertilizer if you see new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > growth. Nutrients
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > won't be of much help if the plant hasn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > regrown new leaves and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > roots yet. If after a week you still don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > any new leaves, try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > pullling out one and check for root rot. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > healthy plants this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > won't usually occur. Keep us posted!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Rod
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5798 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      salt can rais ethe acid levels of the water, (which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is why it makes wateer boil faster) which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      beneficial to most fish. what most people are talking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about here is a table spoon or a cup in the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with coars salt. the salt helps fight parastites,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      encourages breeding in non-live bearing fish, and does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aid in aerobic respirarion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Sarah <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > We don't know why people insist on putting salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > babies from one of the females.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > there is no need to use salt!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > has to her right side scales towards here head?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > But, last night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > was very submisive in the upper corner of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > livebearers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5799 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales, dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      starvation of a fish generally takes several weeks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but she may just jave ben weak from the illness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > It was weird she started to fell better was swiming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > around fine then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > just droped dead this morning?? maybe she starved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > casue she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not eat days before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > has to her right side scales towards here head?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > But, last night she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > was very submisive in the upper corner of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > livebearers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5800 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If freshwater water were meant to have salt added then they wouldn't be called freshwater, would they.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 10/04/04 17:34:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Greetings Sarah,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      True that most freshwater fish can live without added salt but all freshwater enviroments have some level of salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Salt is also needed for cardiac functions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      BUT if  you use tap water that your house is supplied with you'll have no problem as there is enough salt supplied.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mark 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      babies from one of the females.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there is no need to use salt!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      livebearers.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5801 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they should properly be called "relatively freshwater fish." they need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      salt in their environments just as all animals do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Oct 4, 2004, at 1:12 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If freshwater water were meant to have salt added then they wouldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > be called freshwater, would they.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5802 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As far as I know the amazon sword plants sold for aquariums are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      true aquatic plants that can live in bogs, not bog plants that can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      live under water. This question came up a while back and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      conclusion is that they do grow best fully submerged. They do need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      some extra plant nutrients to do well in my experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just so I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > amazon sword is not a true aquatic plant so much as a bog plant .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Any "Wild" swords I have seen images of show them with feet wet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > totally submerged for a long period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I don't *usually* see them living past say 6 months before they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      die off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I believe they live where the amazon floods for a period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > But then I'm not a Botanist so I'm not an expert on these plants .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5803 From: aaoo881 Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Saltwater to Freshwater?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have recently bought a Saltwater set up . It was a premature buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Saltwater is so expensive and I think I need a little more experience
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      before I take on that adventure. My question for anyone that can help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      me .I purchased a 29 gallon Oceanic with a Emperor 400 Filter, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      heaters, Undergravel filter, Protein Skimmer ( There is no need for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this I dont think) Do I need anything else? Do I need to use both the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Carbon filter and the undergravel filter? and if not what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      prefered? and then the Protein skimmer do I save that for when I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      go to saltwater? or should it be used? Hopefully this doesnt sound to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ignorant. Thank you for your help:)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5804 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Saltwater to Freshwater?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if you are using the tank as fresh water you should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      use the undergravel and the back filter, togther they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will make the tank very healthy, if you are planting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the tank then you may not want to use the ug filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      when you switch to saltwater you will NEED the protein
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      skimmer and can discard the ug filter. it serves no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      purppose in saltwater.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- aaoo881 <aaoo881@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have recently bought a Saltwater set up . It was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > premature buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Saltwater is so expensive and I think I need a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > little more experience
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > before I take on that adventure. My question for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anyone that can help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > me .I purchased a 29 gallon Oceanic with a Emperor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 400 Filter, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > heaters, Undergravel filter, Protein Skimmer ( There
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is no need for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this I dont think) Do I need anything else? Do I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > need to use both the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Carbon filter and the undergravel filter? and if not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > prefered? and then the Protein skimmer do I save
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that for when I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > go to saltwater? or should it be used? Hopefully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this doesnt sound to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ignorant. Thank you for your help:)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5805 From: kacee Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: need help again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a 5 gal tank with 1 betta in it and it seems that no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      how often i do water changes i still have ALOT of yellowish brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      algee. What can i do to solve this? He is the only fish in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5806 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hum my pet store told me that they are need salt for their gills that is one reason why i dont have any.. the lady that worked there said howevr tha tyou can wean them off the salt or most of it adding only a couple tablesppons everymonth... and dang lucky or not i am not sure but when you buy the fish did it look preggo.. i kinda want to see one of my fish have babies but i woudlnt want to see them get eaten as i dont have room for babies.. but oh well mabye in time.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      babies from one of the females.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there is no need to use salt!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5807 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Patrick or anyone else help on red gills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have never seen this on their gills before... it is something definately new.. but my friend did say or make a good point mabye it is them maturing.. coudl that be it... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Are you sure the red on the bleeding heart tetras isn't just their natural color? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5808 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: algae and using a mag float
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i recently got a mag float mainly for visitors to use as they are always wanting to do something to my fish and i dont want them feeding them or putting their hands in the tank so this way they can clean my glass for me lol... but in all honesty my glass has rarely had a issues with algae only when i had cheap plastic plants did they get some brown on it.. and i liked the plants being the purple orage bright green and red not the brown algea but i gave up on that lol.. so if yhou are having issues wtih algea on your glass why not spend the 8 bucks to get the mag float works great and your company or kids or even you can spend a few mintues a week clearing the glass.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5809 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        babies from one of the females."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is easy to respond to.  All you have to do is a little research about where these fish come from.  Some of them come from freshwater, some from brackish water, and some mollies come from the Gulf of Mexico up the coast from Mexico to South Carolina!  While there is no need to add salt for most of them because they are raised in freshwater, they can and do live fine in slightly salted tanks.  Some mollies can live in marine tanks, and they are used to cycle some marine tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "there is no need to use salt!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There are times when there is a usefulness for salt.  For regular use, I agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5810 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Show me freshwater with no salt and I will show you very purified water! :)  But I get what you're saying.  Tap water has about the same salt levels lake water would have, probably.  Salt can be used for disease treatment and to improve slime coats and improve gill function in times of stress.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If freshwater water were meant to have salt added then they wouldn't be called freshwater, would they.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5811 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: need help again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          move the tank away from direct light, such as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- kacee <kaceew33@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a 5 gal tank with 1 betta in it and it seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > how often i do water changes i still have ALOT of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > yellowish brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > algee. What can i do to solve this? He is the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5812 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If one just wants to add some salt merly as a health issue.. liike once every frew months to help the coats and gills and whatnot how much would one add like per 10 gallons or so.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5813 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i think it is a tablespoon per 5 gallons, buti digress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to someone who has done it more recently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If one just wants to add some salt merly as a health
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > issue.. liike once every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frew months to help the coats and gills and whatnot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > how much would one add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like per 10 gallons or so.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5814 From: Larry Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a 90 gal cycled tank, 48 inches of fish, running an Eheim Pro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          circulating also through a UV steralizer and my water is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          crystal clear as friends with undergravel. What has been groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          experience?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5815 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the cannister is a great biologic filter, but it does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          absolutely nothing for the substrate, just like a back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filter. the food that decomposes, along with fecal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          matter, will discolor the water in my experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Larry <gwt37205@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a 90 gal cycled tank, 48 inches of fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > running an Eheim Pro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > circulating also through a UV steralizer and my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > crystal clear as friends with undergravel. What has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > been groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > experience?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5816 From: msaathof Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Sword Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi everybody,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just got my aquarium set up and right now I am really excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          because the fish are actually not dying off on me. :) I tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          keeping a saltwater aquarium and I could not keep the fish alive. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          question is this.......... Is there an easy way to tell when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          swordfish are about to give birth are even pregnant (not sure if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that's the correct term). I purchased a 3 compartment breeder that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          floats on the surface of the tank; however, I can not tell when to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          put the fish in it. One swordfish I have is either really big or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pregnant. I am not sure because I just got it a few days ago. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          there an easy way to tell?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          By the way I really appreciate all the help on the Amazon Sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5817 From: kacee Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Problem solved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In regards to my 5 gal betta tank with loads of alge, i moved my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pleco from my 29 gal to the 5 gal and in 15 mins the tank was clear!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and it was never in front of a window. guess i should get some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chinesse alge eaters for the tank? what do you say?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5818 From: Steve Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do beg to differ with you. There are many instances where salt may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          beneficial to "freshwater" fish. One is as a first cure for many illnesses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          we may see in our fish. Using a marine salt, rather than a table salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (kosher salt, canning salt, whatever) is also very beneficial to such fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as mollies, guppies, platies, and swordtails, especially if you have a soft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water to keep them in, as all of those fish originally come from hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          alkaline water, if not out and out brackish waster. In fact, mollies have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          been found surviving quite well close to shore in the ocean.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Having said that, there are many soft water fish I would be hesitant to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          salt with, except in cases of illness. The group of rams covers many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          them. They come from very soft, low pH waters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Fish are rather adaptable creatures for the most part, and many will survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in water chemistry not to their liking. They may not do very well, but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          will survive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Sarah [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Plattie not eating and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          white tint on scales




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          babies from one of the females.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          there is no need to use salt!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My orange Plattie would not eat this morning. She has been chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > my Black Molly that is trying to eat this very slight white tint
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > has to her right side scales towards here head? But, last night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > was very submisive in the upper corner of the tank, and she would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > eat. I do have the right amount of salt in the water for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          livebearers.








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5819 From: Steve Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Can a Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'd need to look it up, and I do not have the time right now, but there was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a whole race of swordtails that are female, and some of those females will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          turn into males, even after bearing young, to fertilize the next generation,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          if needed. Apparently, though, most of the fertilization is from males of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nearby population of swords.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Can a Platy


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From most of what I've read, which is on-line and not always the most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          accurate source, swordtail females that change into males are usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          late-developing males. They were always male, but they hadn't developed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          outer signs of being a male. Watching my mollies I noticed that one day I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thought maybe they were females, the next day it was clear they were males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Their "fin" changed shape over night!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Swordtail females can take over a male gender role and fertilize other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          females when a male is not present. There are some other livebearers who can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          do this as well, but it has been sometime since I've seen the literature on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this, so I'd rather not trust my memory to make a list of said species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          \\Steve//








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5820 From: red-eye Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a heavily planted tank with an UG filter along with a cannister - crystal clear




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          At 06:14 PM 10/4/2004, you wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a 90 gal cycled tank, 48 inches of fish, running an Eheim Pro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          circulating also through a UV steralizer and my water is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          crystal clear as friends with undergravel. What has been groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          experience?






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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For accurate, useful care information
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5821 From: red-eye Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: need help again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          either to much or to little light



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          At 04:00 PM 10/4/2004, you wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a 5 gal tank with 1 betta in it and it seems that no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          how often i do water changes i still have ALOT of yellowish brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          algee. What can i do to solve this? He is the only fish in the tank.








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For accurate, useful care information
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5822 From: straubtyler Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I put in 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water all the time. if i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          use salt my mollies shimmy when i add salt the do fine. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          important thing to remember is salt dose not evaproate and is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fitered out so only add when changing water not toping off for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          evaporation. measure the amount of water you drain and treat for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that much water not how much you add. when i do a water change i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          drain 5 gallons and add 6 gallons 1 gallon evaporates between water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes so i add 1 tablespoon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tyler


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If one just wants to add some salt merly as a health issue.. liike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          once every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frew months to help the coats and gills and whatnot how much would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          one add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like per 10 gallons or so.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5823 From: paul helms Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Problem solved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the chinese are aggressive once they hit about 2 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          inches, so i would not recomend them. they also get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          about 12 inches long. you may want to go with otto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cats.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- kacee <kaceew33@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In regards to my 5 gal betta tank with loads of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > alge, i moved my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pleco from my 29 gal to the 5 gal and in 15 mins the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank was clear!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and it was never in front of a window. guess i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > should get some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > chinesse alge eaters for the tank? what do you say?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5824 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks ill keep my eyes peeled for the conceses shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i think it is a tablespoon per 5 gallons, buti digress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to someone who has done it more recently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If one just wants to add some salt merly as a health
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > issue.. liike once every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frew months to help the coats and gills and whatnot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > how much would one add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like per 10 gallons or so.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5825 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks that is awsome news.. so about what kind of salt should i use.. im thinking salt out of ashaker is not what i am looking for right.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I put in 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water all the time.  if i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          use salt my mollies shimmy when i add salt the do fine.  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          important thing to remember is salt dose not evaproate and is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fitered out so only add when changing water not toping off for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          evaporation.  measure the amount of water you drain and treat for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that much water not how much you add.  when i do a water change i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          drain 5 gallons and add 6 gallons 1 gallon evaporates between water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes so i add 1 tablespoon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5826 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aquarium salt....cheap at any lfs

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thanks that is awsome news.. so about what kind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > salt should i use.. im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thinking salt out of ashaker is not what i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > looking for right.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I put in 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > time. if i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > use salt my mollies shimmy when i add salt the do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fine. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > important thing to remember is salt dose not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > evaproate and is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fitered out so only add when changing water not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > toping off for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > evaporation. measure the amount of water you drain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and treat for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that much water not how much you add. when i do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water change i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > drain 5 gallons and add 6 gallons 1 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > evaporates between water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes so i add 1 tablespoon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5827 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Sword Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If female sword tails are kept with males then they defiantly are pregnant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Keep a watch on the females and if it sometimes looks like they are getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          very fat, they could give babies in the next 2-3 days. If however you miss
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the episode this time, calculate 22 days from the day you think she gave the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          babies and hopefully in the next 22-28 days she will be ready to give birth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Personally, I don't relish the idea of a breeder trap. The fish get too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          stressed out in there but if you want to be over run with sword tails (40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          babies every 20-25 days) then you could get a large floating breeder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >From: msaathof [mailto:msaathof@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 05 October 2004 03:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Sword Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Hi everybody,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >I just got my aquarium set up and right now I am really excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >because the fish are actually not dying off on me. :) I tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >keeping a saltwater aquarium and I could not keep the fish alive. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >question is this.......... Is there an easy way to tell when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >swordfish are about to give birth are even pregnant (not sure if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >that's the correct term). I purchased a 3 compartment breeder that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >floats on the surface of the tank; however, I can not tell when to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >put the fish in it. One swordfish I have is either really big or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >pregnant. I am not sure because I just got it a few days ago. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >there an easy way to tell?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >By the way I really appreciate all the help on the Amazon Sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5828 From: jim Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Sword Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hello mike ,, i agree in all that has been said , gonna be a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          babies , and a floating breeder trap is stressful , i would provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a seperate tank(min 10 gal) heavily planted for hiding places for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          both the babies and mother to take shelter in ...regards...Jim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "msaathof"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <msaathof@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi everybody,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I just got my aquarium set up and right now I am really excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > because the fish are actually not dying off on me. :) I tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > keeping a saltwater aquarium and I could not keep the fish alive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > question is this.......... Is there an easy way to tell when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > swordfish are about to give birth are even pregnant (not sure if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that's the correct term). I purchased a 3 compartment breeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > floats on the surface of the tank; however, I can not tell when to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > put the fish in it. One swordfish I have is either really big or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pregnant. I am not sure because I just got it a few days ago. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there an easy way to tell?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > By the way I really appreciate all the help on the Amazon Sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5829 From: jim Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -hi larry ,, your post is not specific as to what species fish you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          keep, only overall length/per gallon, if you have Oscars or even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          smaller cichlids your scavengers(if any) may not be able to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          up,, also , how is the return flow in your tank , does it flow in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          counter-clockwise direction?(look as you flush the toilet next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          time,example , i am above the equator water goes down the drain in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          CCW swirl due to gravity, below the equator the swirl is CW, if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are pumping against the swirl/gravity, you do not get the total flow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          capability of the EHIEM PRO....i keep a community tank(55gal) with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          perhaps 2" fish per gallon and have no trouble with water quality,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          using a canister(marineland/magnum 350)and weekly i siphon off 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gals and suck as much gravel as i can in the same 10 gals, replacing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it with run-off from a dehumidifier i keep running 24/7,,, but IMHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the Eheim unit is too small for the 90 gal(imlooking at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          catalog "www.thatfishplace.com" where i can make side-by-side
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          comparisons,,shows 2 Ehiem pro models,92gph/158gph, at the very best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thats one upto one+one half turnover per hour where as the magnum is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          350GPH,, so my tank @ 55 gals turns over 6-7 times per hour,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          neither of the catalog pages specify how high the " head" is on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          either pump, the Ehiem does specify wattage, no telling which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more economical to run... but , i would suggest to you , check the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          flow characteristics of the tank, consider, what livestock you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in the tank, other maintenance issues...i run a number of other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tanks (5) solely with UGF, and they also stay pretty clear,, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are lots of options available... regards ...Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Larry"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <gwt37205@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a 90 gal cycled tank, 48 inches of fish, running an Eheim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > circulating also through a UV steralizer and my water is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > crystal clear as friends with undergravel. What has been groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > experience?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5830 From: straubtyler Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i use aquarium salt and i deslove it in the water before adding it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tyler


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, a-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thanks that is awsome news.. so about what kind of salt should i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          use.. im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thinking salt out of ashaker is not what i am looking for right..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I put in 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water all the time. if i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > use salt my mollies shimmy when i add salt the do fine. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > important thing to remember is salt dose not evaproate and is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fitered out so only add when changing water not toping off for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > evaporation. measure the amount of water you drain and treat for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that much water not how much you add. when i do a water change i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > drain 5 gallons and add 6 gallons 1 gallon evaporates between water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes so i add 1 tablespoon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5831 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Sword Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Fully agree stress free tank every time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dave








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "jim"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <alls2@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hello mike ,, i agree in all that has been said , gonna be a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > babies , and a floating breeder trap is stressful , i would provide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a seperate tank(min 10 gal) heavily planted for hiding places for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > both the babies and mother to take shelter in ...regards...Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "msaathof"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <msaathof@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hi everybody,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I just got my aquarium set up and right now I am really excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > because the fish are actually not dying off on me. :) I tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > keeping a saltwater aquarium and I could not keep the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          alive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > question is this.......... Is there an easy way to tell when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > swordfish are about to give birth are even pregnant (not sure if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > that's the correct term). I purchased a 3 compartment breeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > floats on the surface of the tank; however, I can not tell when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > put the fish in it. One swordfish I have is either really big or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > pregnant. I am not sure because I just got it a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > there an easy way to tell?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > By the way I really appreciate all the help on the Amazon Sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5832 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Canister Filtration vs. Undergravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Larry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I use both systems but I use the sypthon pipe for the canister
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          down the tube for the UG. So it sucks the water through the gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          then into the canister and feeds back in at the other end of tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          causing a complete circulation. Water crystal clear and plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          blooming.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dave




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Larry"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <gwt37205@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a 90 gal cycled tank, 48 inches of fish, running an Eheim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > circulating also through a UV steralizer and my water is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > crystal clear as friends with undergravel. What has been groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > experience?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5833 From: moonreachers Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Phantax?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I would like to know if anybody has heard about a fish called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Panthax. The female is bigger than the male, a bright white color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          resembling a bit to a white molly. And the male is a bright yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They are mostly a longish fish that likes to stay in the upper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          levels of the aquariums.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am afraid I have no idea about the scientific name or other name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for this fish, that is actually what I would like to find out about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Onofre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5834 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O, Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          under the impression that the ammonia and nitrate would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but there would be some nitrate, then it's time to do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          change. Isn't it strange that my readings are this way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5835 From: shortlid Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Cucumber for Pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I keep putting Cucumber and lettuce in my 30 gal. for my Pleco but he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          will not eat it the Cory's LOVE it though. The cucumber sinks after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          awhile how do you get the lettuce to sink??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5836 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: using salt in freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Sarah, let's just agree to disagree regarding the use of salt in a livebearer freshwater aquarium. Although your livebearers do fine with NO salt, mine died from fungus until I added salt. Now they are doing fine, I can actually keep black mollies for more than a couple of weeks without them dying off. Some brackish water species (especially some types of mollies) will do better WITH salt, but can also do fine WITHOUT salt depending on the type. I know that the blacks, specifically, are more prone to fungus because of the selective breeding that has been going on with them for so long, and the salt helps with that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Some people like to add SMALL amounts of salt to a freshwater aquarium environment (the recommended use is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water) ... to improve gill and bladder function. Some people have aquariums that get along perfectly well WITHOUT the salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I use salt in my mollie/platy aquarium. I will continue to do so, because I have personally observed favorable results directly related to the use of salt. You choose not to use salt in your livebearer aquarium(s), and that is fine for you. It's all a matter of personal preference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Red Wag Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5837 From: Erin Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: help me asap please!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          when I woke up this morning I found 2 of my green barbs dead :( I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          didn't know what to do so I immediately got them out and changed 25%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of the water. I tested before changing and ammonia and nitrite were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          at 0. I don't know what happened??! Maybe just going through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle was rough on them? I had noticed that the other fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hiding in caves and such, not being their usual self and not eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as much as they usually do. Now I only have 4 barbs, and they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          picking on each other!! What else should I do as a precaution now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that those fish died?? Do I need to add 2 more back to prevent the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aggression and nipping. Please let me know and thanks in advance!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5838 From: kacee Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: otto cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just did a bit of research on the otto cats Paul said i should put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in my 5 gal tank. What i found says they should go in a min. of a 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gal tank butthe grow to a max of 2". http://www.liveaquaria.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          link to page. Is it safe to put this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish in my 5 gal tank with my betta? Oh yea one last thing this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          alge did not start untill my husband (the saltwater guy) bought a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          compact flurecnet bulb for "Forman the betta" wonder if that had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anything to do with this????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5839 From: kacee Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Cucumber for Pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I keep putting Cucumber and lettuce in my 30 gal. for my Pleco but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will not eat it the Cory's LOVE it though. The cucumber sinks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > awhile how do you get the lettuce to sink??


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I was feeding my pleco lettuce for a while and he would just come to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the surface and eat it but i think he is odd he comes to the surface
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          when i feed the others in my tank as well. They make a veggie clip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that you can buy at a pet store it is mainly for saltwater fish such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as tangs but i think this would work for you lettuce. if sticks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the side of the glass inside the tank and you just clip the lettuce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in it and the fish eat. Best of luck to you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5840 From: bryants4god Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Cucumber for Pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          get a clip with a suction cup or rubber band it to a rock or decoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Cucumber for Pleco


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I keep putting Cucumber and lettuce in my 30 gal. for my Pleco but he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          will not eat it the Cory's LOVE it though.  The cucumber sinks after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          awhile how do you get the lettuce to sink??





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5841 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Sword Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I will also agree with the breeding traps being a bad idea.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have sowrdtails myself, and I have already given up on trying to save all the fry. They breed like crazy! I would advise a heavily planted tank, so that the fry will have plenty of hiding places (Java Moss and Hornwort are great).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Unless you have plans for the babies, then you would want to save them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But letting the babies stay in the main tank will cause less stress on the female, and you can always pull them out as you see them. Since planting my tank, I see babies all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5842 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: otto cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the compact is a much brighter light, which will make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more algae grow. how many watts did he get?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- kacee <kaceew33@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I just did a bit of research on the otto cats Paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > said i should put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in my 5 gal tank. What i found says they should go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in a min. of a 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gal tank butthe grow to a max of 2".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > http://www.liveaquaria.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > link to page. Is it safe to put this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish in my 5 gal tank with my betta? Oh yea one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > last thing this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > alge did not start untill my husband (the saltwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > guy) bought a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > compact flurecnet bulb for "Forman the betta" wonder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if that had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anything to do with this????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5843 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: help me asap please!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just because they are in a large group, it does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mean that they will be less aggressive. that is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          common belief, and usually holds true, unless you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a bully. i know that you checked nitrites and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia, but did you check nitrates? if they are high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and those 2 were being picked on, it could have caused
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          excessive stress. if there is only one that is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hiding, then you know who the bully is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > when I woke up this morning I found 2 of my green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > barbs dead :( I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > didn't know what to do so I immediately got them out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and changed 25%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the water. I tested before changing and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and nitrite were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at 0. I don't know what happened??! Maybe just going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle was rough on them? I had noticed that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > other fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hiding in caves and such, not being their usual self
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and not eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > as much as they usually do. Now I only have 4 barbs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > picking on each other!! What else should I do as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > precaution now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that those fish died?? Do I need to add 2 more back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to prevent the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aggression and nipping. Please let me know and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thanks in advance!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Erin :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5844 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this means that you are at the beginning of an ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          spike, which is a few days early, it is usually abotu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 1/2 weeks in. over teh next week, ammonia should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          shoot up higher, nitrites should start to creep up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          next week you should have some nitrate. you are about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 1/2 weeks from the end of the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > under the impression that the ammonia and nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but there would be some nitrate, then it's time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change. Isn't it strange that my readings are this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5845 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My nitrate was 160 5 days ago, which was the last time I tested it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I could hardly believe it was zero this morning. I'm disappointed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that I have 2 1/2 more weeks to wait, but I guess I'll live. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          teesy Diamonds are doing well in the 12 gallon tank with the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and platies, and when the 25 gallon is fully cycled, I'll have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ADVENTURE of trying to catch these FASSSST little guys to transfer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          them into their new home. Probably best to only move a few at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          time anyway, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > this means that you are at the beginning of an ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > spike, which is a few days early, it is usually abotu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 2 1/2 weeks in. over teh next week, ammonia should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > shoot up higher, nitrites should start to creep up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > next week you should have some nitrate. you are about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 2 1/2 weeks from the end of the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > under the impression that the ammonia and nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > but there would be some nitrate, then it's time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > change. Isn't it strange that my readings are this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5846 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not to be arrogant or to imply that you are wrong, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          if it was at 160 a few days ago, it is not possible to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          be at 0 today unless you did a 100% water change with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          di water. nitrate does not go away by itself. plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          consume it slowly, and anaerobic bacteria gas it off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          typically the only way to get rid of it is water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes, which is slow dilution. you may want to test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          again. there could have been an error or the kit could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          be bad. if it is liquid one of the steps could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          been left out. nitrite should be 0, ammonia should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          0, and nitrate will typically be somewhere between 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and 40. your nitrite will go up though as you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My nitrate was 160 5 days ago, which was the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > time I tested it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I could hardly believe it was zero this morning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I'm disappointed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that I have 2 1/2 more weeks to wait, but I guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I'll live. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > teesy Diamonds are doing well in the 12 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and platies, and when the 25 gallon is fully cycled,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I'll have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ADVENTURE of trying to catch these FASSSST little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > guys to transfer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > them into their new home. Probably best to only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > move a few at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > time anyway, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > this means that you are at the beginning of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > spike, which is a few days early, it is usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > abotu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 2 1/2 weeks in. over teh next week, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > shoot up higher, nitrites should start to creep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > next week you should have some nitrate. you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 2 1/2 weeks from the end of the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > under the impression that the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > but there would be some nitrate, then it's time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > change. Isn't it strange that my readings are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5847 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb, had your ammonia already gone down to zero prior to this? Last I heard your nitrates were 160, so for them to be zero now is rather weird. It took me a few months to get my nirates down to about 20-40 ppm. Those test results are the levels I would expect to see in a new tank, where no fishless cycle had been done, and where a couple of "sacrificial" fish had been added.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          What was the highest level your nitrites had gotten too?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Had you already done your 50% water change, leaving your gravel alone, and added the daily dose of ammonia? If so, the retest was supposed to be 24 hrs after you added the ammonia. If it was, maybe you accidentally added a little too much ammonia; test again to make sure it goes back down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It also might have just been a false reading; wouldn't hurt to test again to confirm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message: 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:30:27 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Weird test results??


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O, Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          under the impression that the ammonia and nitrite would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but there would be some nitrate, then it's time to do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          change. Isn't it strange that my readings are this way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5848 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Okay...I just retested the nitrate, and got the same result...zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nitrate. It is a brand spankin' new liquid test kit by Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pharmaceuticals (Freshwater Master Test Kit), via Foster and Smith.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The nitrate results had been 160 for several days, but I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          skip THIS test for awhile, and just do the ammonia and nitrites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          until they came down. The last reading I have for nitrate is 10/l,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and it was 160. I've done NO water changes, nor have I added any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water to the tank. I've been leaving the light on 24/7 during this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycling process, since someone said I should do that. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          make a difference? The last ammonia I added was 1/3 capful at 10:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          PM last night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks to Audrey for her post and comments, too...!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not to be arrogant or to imply that you are wrong, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if it was at 160 a few days ago, it is not possible to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > be at 0 today unless you did a 100% water change with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > di water. nitrate does not go away by itself. plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > consume it slowly, and anaerobic bacteria gas it off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > typically the only way to get rid of it is water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes, which is slow dilution. you may want to test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > again. there could have been an error or the kit could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > be bad. if it is liquid one of the steps could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > been left out. nitrite should be 0, ammonia should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 0, and nitrate will typically be somewhere between 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and 40. your nitrite will go up though as you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ammonia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > My nitrate was 160 5 days ago, which was the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > time I tested it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I could hardly believe it was zero this morning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I'm disappointed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > that I have 2 1/2 more weeks to wait, but I guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I'll live. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > teesy Diamonds are doing well in the 12 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > with the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and platies, and when the 25 gallon is fully cycled,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I'll have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ADVENTURE of trying to catch these FASSSST little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > guys to transfer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > them into their new home. Probably best to only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > move a few at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > time anyway, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > this means that you are at the beginning of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > spike, which is a few days early, it is usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > abotu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > 2 1/2 weeks in. over teh next week, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > shoot up higher, nitrites should start to creep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > next week you should have some nitrate. you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > 2 1/2 weeks from the end of the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > under the impression that the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > but there would be some nitrate, then it's time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > change. Isn't it strange that my readings are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5849 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, Audrey...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No, the ammonia has never been zero. It's gone from 2.0 to .50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          then .25. Yes, the nitrates were 160 just a few days ago, and this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          was the first time I'd tested for nitrates since then. I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          believe it was zero! The retest showed the same. The nitrites have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gone from 5.0 to 2.0 then back to 5.0, and now zero. I have never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          added or changed any water in the tank, and have had the light on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          24/7. I'll keep adding 1/3 capful of ammonia and doing daily tests,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and let ya'll know the results, unless I hear to do things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          differently. I'm beginning to feel like a mad chemist with all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          test tubes! At least my Diamond tetras and safely enjoying the 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gallon tank for now!!! I LOVE fishless cycling, in spite of it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          frustration. At least no fishies are dying!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Barb, had your ammonia already gone down to zero prior to this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last I heard your nitrates were 160, so for them to be zero now is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          rather weird. It took me a few months to get my nirates down to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          about 20-40 ppm. Those test results are the levels I would expect to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          see in a new tank, where no fishless cycle had been done, and where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a couple of "sacrificial" fish had been added.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > What was the highest level your nitrites had gotten too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Had you already done your 50% water change, leaving your gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          alone, and added the daily dose of ammonia? If so, the retest was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          supposed to be 24 hrs after you added the ammonia. If it was, maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you accidentally added a little too much ammonia; test again to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sure it goes back down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > It also might have just been a false reading; wouldn't hurt to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          test again to confirm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Message: 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:30:27 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank. I tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite O, Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > under the impression that the ammonia and nitrite would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but there would be some nitrate, then it's time to do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change. Isn't it strange that my readings are this way? What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5850 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Phantax?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Onofre? Did you mean Panchax? A similar panchax is the golden wonder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          killifish (aplocheilus lineatus)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are many panchax that come in very vivid colour and are Killifish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >From: moonreachers [mailto:siestadream@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 05 October 2004 16:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Phantax?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >I would like to know if anybody has heard about a fish called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Panthax. The female is bigger than the male, a bright white color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >resembling a bit to a white molly. And the male is a bright yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >They are mostly a longish fish that likes to stay in the upper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >levels of the aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >I am afraid I have no idea about the scientific name or other name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >for this fish, that is actually what I would like to find out about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Onofre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5851 From: Siestadream Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Phantax?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh yes, I had got the name wrong, that is why I could not find anything with that name finally :-) Now I saw some shots in the web and it is that yellow or golden fish. As the female is so different, with a good belly and not that longish, I really got it all wrong. I guess I am mostly used to the most typical red impressive colored killifish and never had seen these.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So thank you very much for you help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Onofre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5852 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          just use kosher salt, it's so much cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Oct 5, 2004, at 10:06 AM, straubtyler wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i use aquarium salt and i deslove it in the water before adding it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, a-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > thanks that is awsome news.. so about what kind of salt should i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > use.. im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5853 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Pickling salt from the grocery store.  Aquarium salt is 1 pound for $1.35, pickling salt is 4 pounds for $1.35.  Both are pure NaCl, but aquarium salt has the word "aquarium" on the box.  I consider it immoral to sell things that way, but every fish store does it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thanks that is awsome news.. so about what kind of salt should i use.. im thinking salt out of ashaker is not what i am looking for right.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5854 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thanks patrick im on my way to get some pickling salt.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Pickling salt from the grocery store.  Aquarium salt is 1 pound for $1.35, pickling salt is 4 pounds for $1.35.  Both are pure NaCl, but aquarium salt has the word "aquarium" on the box.  I consider it immoral to sell things that way, but every fish store does it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5855 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could something have gotten into the bottle of test solution?  It does sound very strange, almost too strange...  Are you still adding ammonia every day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5856 From: Tim Walker Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Problem solved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Chinese Algae Eaters wont eat algae past juvenile stages - and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              suck the slime coat from other fish. You are far better off with True
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Siamese Algae Eaters, Crossocheilous siamensis. There are flying foxes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chinese algae eaters and false siamese algae eaters which all look like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              siamese algae eaters, but aren't - and don't tend much toward algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              SAE's can be identified by having no colour in their fins, a single
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              black stripe, a single pair of barbels and a triangular patch of black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in their tail.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.hidrobotanik.com/balik/siamensis_dosyalar/image001.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              oh and if you do get them, you'll probably need to feed them algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tablets once they have cleaned up your tank (which took about 3 hours
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              after I first got mine)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good luck hunting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On 05/10/2004, at 1:05 PM, kacee wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > In regards to my 5 gal  betta tank with loads of alge, i moved my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > pleco from my 29 gal to the 5 gal and in 15 mins the tank was clear!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and it was never in front of a window. guess i should get some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > chinesse alge eaters for the tank? what do you say?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5857 From: Erin Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Internal bacteria?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you think that the fish that died may have had an internal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              parasite? All of the fish are not eating like usual and they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              seem to be hiding in the caves. I don't want anymore to die so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              need some opinions fast!! Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5858 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cool, thanks for the advice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now let's see if it grows well this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Leaves dying on Amazon Sword sword plant


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as I know the amazon sword plants sold for aquariums are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              true aquatic plants that can live in bogs, not bog plants that can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              live under water.  This question came up a while back and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              conclusion is that they do grow best fully submerged.  They do need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              some extra plant nutrients to do well in my experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Bethke" <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Just so I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  amazon sword is not a true aquatic plant so much as a bog plant .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Any "Wild" swords I have seen images of show them with feet wet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > totally submerged for a long  period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I don't *usually* see them living past say 6 months before they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              die off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I believe they live where the amazon floods for a period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > But then I'm not a Botanist so I'm not an expert on these plants .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Black Adder





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5859 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hey Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Gota agree there, them rift valley lakes have sea water flowing in. Don't freak out everyone, it's simply that the "Rifts" are fractures on a major fault and once it split apart the indian ocean started flowing in sinbce the rifts are below the Indian Oceans level, the sea water is coming in from underground at a decent rate. If the fish don't evolve fast enough they will die off , whole species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Also , in the Chihuahua desert there are brine pools that are 2-3 times as salty as the pacific ocean yet there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 1:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Plattie not eating and white tint on scales

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Show me freshwater with no salt and I will show you very purified water! :)  But I get what you're saying.  Tap water has about the same salt levels lake water would have, probably.  Salt can be used for disease treatment and to improve slime coats and improve gill function in times of stress.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If freshwater water were meant to have salt added then they wouldn't be called freshwater, would they.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5860 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                No, nothing could have gotten into the bottles or the test tubes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, I'm adding ammonia, but only about a third of a capful. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                think I should be adding more than that for a 25 gallon tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Could something have gotten into the bottle of test solution?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sound very strange, almost too strange... Are you still adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > every day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5861 From: Steve Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Actually, any kind of salt will do, even table salt. In actuality, the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to use would be marine salts for a marine tank, least expensive is Kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (canning and pickling salt are the same thing, though the kosher seal may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not appear on the packaging) salt. Epsom salt should only be used when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                specifically indicated. Rock salt should be avoided because it does contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a lot of impurities, some of which may be harmful to your fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tyler what kind of salt Re: adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                salt


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks that is awsome news.. so about what kind of salt should i use.. im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thinking salt out of ashaker is not what i am looking for right.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I put in 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water all the time. if i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                use salt my mollies shimmy when i add salt the do fine. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                important thing to remember is salt dose not evaproate and is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fitered out so only add when changing water not toping off for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                evaporation. measure the amount of water you drain and treat for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that much water not how much you add. when i do a water change i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                drain 5 gallons and add 6 gallons 1 gallon evaporates between water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                changes so i add 1 tablespoon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tyler






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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5862 From: paul helms Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well i am gonna bow out on this one with one parting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                comment. there must be something in the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                causing a false positive. it is not possible to drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                160 ppm of nitrates to 0 in a tank in a few days, no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                matter the filtration etc, unless you are running a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fully sealed anaerobic filtration unit that is 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                oxygen free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Okay...I just retested the nitrate, and got the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > result...zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrate. It is a brand spankin' new liquid test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > by Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pharmaceuticals (Freshwater Master Test Kit), via
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Foster and Smith.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The nitrate results had been 160 for several days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skip THIS test for awhile, and just do the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and nitrites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > until they came down. The last reading I have for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrate is 10/l,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and it was 160. I've done NO water changes, nor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have I added any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water to the tank. I've been leaving the light on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 24/7 during this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cycling process, since someone said I should do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > make a difference? The last ammonia I added was 1/3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > capful at 10:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > PM last night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks to Audrey for her post and comments,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > too...!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > not to be arrogant or to imply that you are wrong,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if it was at 160 a few days ago, it is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > possible to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > be at 0 today unless you did a 100% water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > di water. nitrate does not go away by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > consume it slowly, and anaerobic bacteria gas it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > typically the only way to get rid of it is water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > changes, which is slow dilution. you may want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > again. there could have been an error or the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > be bad. if it is liquid one of the steps could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > been left out. nitrite should be 0, ammonia should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 0, and nitrate will typically be somewhere between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and 40. your nitrite will go up though as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ammonia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > My nitrate was 160 5 days ago, which was the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > time I tested it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I could hardly believe it was zero this morning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I'm disappointed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that I have 2 1/2 more weeks to wait, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I'll live. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > teesy Diamonds are doing well in the 12 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > with the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and platies, and when the 25 gallon is fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cycled,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I'll have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ADVENTURE of trying to catch these FASSSST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > guys to transfer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > them into their new home. Probably best to only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > move a few at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > time anyway, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > this means that you are at the beginning of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > spike, which is a few days early, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > abotu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 2 1/2 weeks in. over teh next week, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > shoot up higher, nitrites should start to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > creep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > next week you should have some nitrate. you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 2 1/2 weeks from the end of the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > O,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > under the impression that the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > but there would be some nitrate, then it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > change. Isn't it strange that my readings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5863 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Weird test results??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The only filter is the one that came with the aquarium...the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Eclipse. Do you think I should just continue adding about l/3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                capful of the ammonia daily and keep testing? Any other suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The ammonia was purchased at WalMart, and opened just to start doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the cycling. Nothing got into that bottle either. I'll be curious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to see what the readings are w/ tomorrows testing...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > well i am gonna bow out on this one with one parting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > comment. there must be something in the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > causing a false positive. it is not possible to drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 160 ppm of nitrates to 0 in a tank in a few days, no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > matter the filtration etc, unless you are running a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fully sealed anaerobic filtration unit that is 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > oxygen free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Okay...I just retested the nitrate, and got the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > result...zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > nitrate. It is a brand spankin' new liquid test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > by Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Pharmaceuticals (Freshwater Master Test Kit), via
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Foster and Smith.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The nitrate results had been 160 for several days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skip THIS test for awhile, and just do the ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and nitrites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > until they came down. The last reading I have for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > nitrate is 10/l,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and it was 160. I've done NO water changes, nor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have I added any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > water to the tank. I've been leaving the light on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 24/7 during this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycling process, since someone said I should do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > make a difference? The last ammonia I added was 1/3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > capful at 10:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > PM last night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks to Audrey for her post and comments,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > too...!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > not to be arrogant or to imply that you are wrong,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > if it was at 160 a few days ago, it is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > possible to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > be at 0 today unless you did a 100% water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > di water. nitrate does not go away by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > consume it slowly, and anaerobic bacteria gas it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > typically the only way to get rid of it is water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > changes, which is slow dilution. you may want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > again. there could have been an error or the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > be bad. if it is liquid one of the steps could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > been left out. nitrite should be 0, ammonia should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 0, and nitrate will typically be somewhere between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and 40. your nitrite will go up though as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ammonia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Paul...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > My nitrate was 160 5 days ago, which was the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > time I tested it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I could hardly believe it was zero this morning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I'm disappointed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that I have 2 1/2 more weeks to wait, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I'll live. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > teesy Diamonds are doing well in the 12 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > with the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > and platies, and when the 25 gallon is fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cycled,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I'll have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > ADVENTURE of trying to catch these FASSSST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > guys to transfer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > them into their new home. Probably best to only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > move a few at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > time anyway, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > this means that you are at the beginning of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > spike, which is a few days early, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > abotu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 2 1/2 weeks in. over teh next week, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > shoot up higher, nitrites should start to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > creep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > next week you should have some nitrate. you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 2 1/2 weeks from the end of the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > This is day 15 of cycling my 25 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > tested this A.M.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > and my readings were: Ammonia .25, Nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > O,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Nitrate O. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > under the impression that the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > would zero out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > but there would be some nitrate, then it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > do a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > change. Isn't it strange that my readings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > way? What does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > it mean, oh wonderful fishie experts...!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://vote.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5864 From: skywhit@yahoo.com Date: 10/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Aquarium Stores in New York City
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've been to several local pet shops in New York City, such as Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and Petland Discount and have been disaapointed by their selection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of fish. Can anyone recommend a reputable estalblishment that sells
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                healthy fresh and saltwater fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Skywhit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5865 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It sure does sound very strange. At 160mg/l even in a very heavily planted high light CO2 tank, it would take over a few weeks to bring the nitrates down to zero from 160. There is defiantly some discrepancy. Hope the bottles of Nitrite and Nitrates have not got interchanged or something? Get the water tested by the LFS if possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 06 October 2004 02:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Weird test results

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Could something have gotten into the bottle of test solution?  It does sound very strange, almost too strange...  Are you still adding ammonia every day?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5866 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Aquarium Stores in New York City
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i don't know any in new york city, but let me know if you ever travel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  out to the island, there's a ton here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Oct 5, 2004, at 11:10 PM, skywhit@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I've been to several local pet shops in New York City, such as Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and Petland Discount and have been disaapointed by their selection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of fish.  Can anyone recommend a reputable estalblishment that sells
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > healthy fresh and saltwater fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thank You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Skywhit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5867 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Aquarium Stores in New York City
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i just did a quick search and found:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  aquarius aquarium (212 749 4970)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  c&j aquarium (646 739 6081)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pacific aquarium and plant (212 995 5895)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  win tropical aquariums (212 343 2875)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and new world aquarium inc (646 865 9604)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that should get you started :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Oct 5, 2004, at 11:10 PM, skywhit@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I've been to several local pet shops in New York City, such as Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and Petland Discount and have been disaapointed by their selection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of fish.  Can anyone recommend a reputable estalblishment that sells
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > healthy fresh and saltwater fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thank You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Skywhit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5868 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, Nim...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for your post. These are the same bottles that I got the 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  reading from. I always double check myself to be SURE that I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the right bottles for the test I'm after. It scares me that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  experts are mystified by this. I just need to know what to do at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  this point, as far as how much ammonia to be adding to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  now. I'm just using l/3 capful daily, and need to know if I should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  be putting more into the tank...or what??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The good news is that the Diamonds continue to thrive in the 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallon tank while waiting for the mysterious 25 gallon to cycle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ya'll have a great Wednesday!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It sure does sound very strange. At 160mg/l even in a very heavily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > high light CO2 tank, it would take over a few weeks to bring the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > down to zero from 160. There is defiantly some discrepancy. Hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the bottles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of Nitrite and Nitrates have not got interchanged or something?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water tested by the LFS if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@h...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: 06 October 2004 02:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Weird test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Could something have gotten into the bottle of test solution?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > sound very strange, almost too strange... Are you still adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > every day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html> Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://groups.msn.com/TheAquariumGroup/thenitrogencycle.msnw>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5869 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could this be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  me :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5870 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If Ammonia and Nitrites both show zero on the scale then I suggest you stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  adding any ammonia, do a large water change with a little aged water (12-24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hr old with water conditioner and dechlorinator added) and start adding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish in or the least start feeding the filter some fish food. If still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  unsure if the water is safe for fish, do 2-3 large water changed over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  period of 5 days and then add the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But before anything else, do get the test kits sorted. Do you have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nitrate removing sponges/resins in the tank that could have removed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nitrates? The only other thing that could remove the Nitrates is Plants. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if plants have been able to remove 160ppm of nitrates in 5 days then my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  guess is that your tank must have never cycled as plants would be consuming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  all the ammonia you must be adding. This is a very extreme situation and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  plants will need over 4 watts per gallon of proper light and high amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  CO2 pumped in to be able to do this. If either of these things were not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  there, then the test results were wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also use the API test kit and did you follow all instructions carefully?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Waited 5 minutes before checking the colour after the final reagent is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  added?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Sent: 06 October 2004 04:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >No, nothing could have gotten into the bottles or the test tubes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Yes, I'm adding ammonia, but only about a third of a capful. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >think I should be adding more than that for a 25 gallon tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Could something have gotten into the bottle of test solution?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >It does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> sound very strange, almost too strange... Are you still adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> every day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5871 From: straubtyler Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  need more info. what are the water peramiters? what tpye of fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  how long has the tank been up? how long have you had the fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  anything else you can provide would also help


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could this be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5872 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > If Ammonia and Nitrites both show zero on the scale then I suggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > adding any ammonia, do a large water change with a little aged
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water (12-24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hr old with water conditioner and dechlorinator added) and start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  adding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fish in or the least start feeding the filter some fish food. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > unsure if the water is safe for fish, do 2-3 large water changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > period of 5 days and then add the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > But before anything else, do get the test kits sorted.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SORTED"...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrate removing sponges/resins in the tank that could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  removed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > nitrates?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  NO...THE ONLY FILTER IS THE ONE THAT CAME WITH THE ECLIPSE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  AQUARIUM.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The only other thing that could remove the Nitrates is Plants. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > if plants have been able to remove 160ppm of nitrates in 5 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  then my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > guess is that your tank must have never cycled as plants would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  consuming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > all the ammonia you must be adding.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  WOULD I BE WISE TO JUST START OVER, OR DO THE WATER CHANGE AND VERY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  GRADUALLY ADD FISH... AND DO DAILY TESTING TO BE SURE NOTHING SPIKES
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  AND GETS DANGEROUS FOR THE FISH???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is a very extreme situation and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > plants will need over 4 watts per gallon of proper light and high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > CO2 pumped in to be able to do this. If either of these things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  were not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > there, then the test results were wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FROM WHAT I HAVE READ, ECLIPSE TANKS AREN'T KNOWN FOR BEING GREAT IN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  THE LIGHT DEPARTMENT. THE TANK IS MODERATELY PLANTED WITH NEW
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  PLANTS, AND HAS A PIECE OF DRIFTWOOD THAT WAS THOROUGHLY BOILED
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  BEFORE ADDING TO THE TANK.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I also use the API test kit and did you follow all instructions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  carefully?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Waited 5 minutes before checking the colour after the final
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  reagent is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > added?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  YES, I WAS VERY CAREFUL WITH THE TESTS. CORRECT AMOUNT OF WATER, 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  DROPS FROM EACH OF THE NITRATE BOTTLES, AND A FULL FIVE MINUTES OF
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  TIME.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  THANKS FOR YOUR HELP, NIM...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  BARB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Sent: 06 October 2004 04:48
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >No, nothing could have gotten into the bottles or the test tubes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Yes, I'm adding ammonia, but only about a third of a capful. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >think I should be adding more than that for a 25 gallon tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> Could something have gotten into the bottle of test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  solution?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >It does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> sound very strange, almost too strange... Are you still adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> every day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5873 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Internal bacteria?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sometimes fish die for no reason that can really be explained.  I doubt there was much you could have done that you didn't do.  For now, just keep watching them and see what happens.  Did the problem with the one fish's gill get better.  You said one of them had a gill that looked funny a while back. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you think that the fish that died may have had an internal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    parasite? All of the fish are not eating like usual and they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    seem to be hiding in the caves. I don't want anymore to die so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    need some opinions fast!! Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5874 From: Nimish Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What I mean by "SORTED" was that get the water tested at the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    store to confirm if your test kit is not giving wrong results. If it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is giving wrong results, replace it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Since you have already seeded the tank with Ammonia and the relevant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bacteria, I would definatly start adding fish but not too gradually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as in this case it may lose a major chunk of the bacteria already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    grown but obviously gradually is the safer method to move forward.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dont forget to do the water changes to avoid any chemicals that might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have been present either due to the action of raw ammonia in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    or due to any other stuff. Water change before adding the first fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is allways a good idea unless the tank is in the middle of a cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Your cycle has finished.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    An eclipse tank will not be able to reach the levels of a planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank to deprive a tank of all its nitrates so the Nitrates are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    definatly there. It is however possible that they probably reached a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    saturation point beyond which the test kit fails. It is possible and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    after all they are chemical reactions and can have such effects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    test your tap water too for nitrates to see if the kit is working
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fine and if it is, do the water changes and then test for nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    again. Checking the tap water will rule out the possibility of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    test kit not working and testing after a large water change may also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    rule out the possibility of the saturation level of nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    effecting the test kit. This is the only reason I could think of.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5875 From: Nimish Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Very frankly. I hate the thought when a fish stops eating. This is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    very serious sign that something is not right but fish can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    recovered from this situation if the cause is known.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As Patrick said, we need more information about the setup then just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this. What size is the tank and volume. How long ago was it setup,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    what water conditioners do you use, what is the PH and any changes?,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tested for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates? what are the results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (values please), how many and what all fish are there, any plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any CO2 pumping? Did you treat with any medications recently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could this be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5876 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi,Nim...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Since this is the same test kit bottles that gave me the 160 reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on Nitrate just a few days ago, I truly don't think there's anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrong with the test kit. I tested my tap water (actually AGAIN,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    since I've tested it for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates and PH just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    few days ago), and it was negative. Then I took water from the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and put in an equal amount of tap water and tested that. Zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrates again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What I mean by "SORTED" was that get the water tested at the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > store to confirm if your test kit is not giving wrong results. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is giving wrong results, replace it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Since you have already seeded the tank with Ammonia and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    relevant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacteria, I would definatly start adding fish but not too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gradually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > as in this case it may lose a major chunk of the bacteria already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > grown but obviously gradually is the safer method to move forward.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dont forget to do the water changes to avoid any chemicals that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have been present either due to the action of raw ammonia in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or due to any other stuff. Water change before adding the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is allways a good idea unless the tank is in the middle of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Your cycle has finished.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > An eclipse tank will not be able to reach the levels of a planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank to deprive a tank of all its nitrates so the Nitrates are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > definatly there. It is however possible that they probably reached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > saturation point beyond which the test kit fails. It is possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > after all they are chemical reactions and can have such effects.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > test your tap water too for nitrates to see if the kit is working
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fine and if it is, do the water changes and then test for nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > again. Checking the tap water will rule out the possibility of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > test kit not working and testing after a large water change may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > rule out the possibility of the saturation level of nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > effecting the test kit. This is the only reason I could think of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5877 From: Nimish Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You mean your tap water also has zero nitrates as per the test kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If so then I suggest you to really get another kit and get this water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tested by the fish store people. 15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    see a tap water (Without an RO unit or a denitrator fitted) to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    zero nitrates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi,Nim...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Since this is the same test kit bottles that gave me the 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on Nitrate just a few days ago, I truly don't think there's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrong with the test kit. I tested my tap water (actually AGAIN,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > since I've tested it for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates and PH just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > few days ago), and it was negative. Then I took water from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and put in an equal amount of tap water and tested that. Zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrates again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > What I mean by "SORTED" was that get the water tested at the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > store to confirm if your test kit is not giving wrong results. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is giving wrong results, replace it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Since you have already seeded the tank with Ammonia and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > relevant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bacteria, I would definatly start adding fish but not too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gradually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > as in this case it may lose a major chunk of the bacteria already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > grown but obviously gradually is the safer method to move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    forward.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Dont forget to do the water changes to avoid any chemicals that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have been present either due to the action of raw ammonia in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > or due to any other stuff. Water change before adding the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > is allways a good idea unless the tank is in the middle of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Your cycle has finished.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > An eclipse tank will not be able to reach the levels of a planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank to deprive a tank of all its nitrates so the Nitrates are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > definatly there. It is however possible that they probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    reached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > saturation point beyond which the test kit fails. It is possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > after all they are chemical reactions and can have such effects.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > test your tap water too for nitrates to see if the kit is working
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fine and if it is, do the water changes and then test for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > again. Checking the tap water will rule out the possibility of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > test kit not working and testing after a large water change may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > rule out the possibility of the saturation level of nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > effecting the test kit. This is the only reason I could think of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5878 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Cucumber for Pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My cories, BNs, and otos like cucumber, frozen broccoli & peas, fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lettuce and spinach. I loop a plant weight thru the cuke to anchor it. Peas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are shelled and halved, broccoli I rubberband to a rock, the lettuce and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spinach I anchor under a rock.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "shortlid" <shortlid@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I keep putting Cucumber and lettuce in my 30 gal. for my Pleco but he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will not eat it the Cory's LOVE it though. The cucumber sinks after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > awhile how do you get the lettuce to sink??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5879 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay, I'll make a trip to the closest fishie place, even though it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nearly an hour away. Yes, the tap water has zero nitrates. I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    keep you posted, even though you'd probably get rid of THIS problem!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks muchly for everyone's input and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You mean your tap water also has zero nitrates as per the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > If so then I suggest you to really get another kit and get this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tested by the fish store people. 15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > see a tap water (Without an RO unit or a denitrator fitted) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > zero nitrates.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi,Nim...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Since this is the same test kit bottles that gave me the 160
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > on Nitrate just a few days ago, I truly don't think there's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > wrong with the test kit. I tested my tap water (actually AGAIN,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > since I've tested it for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates and PH just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > few days ago), and it was negative. Then I took water from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and put in an equal amount of tap water and tested that. Zero
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > nitrates again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > What I mean by "SORTED" was that get the water tested at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > store to confirm if your test kit is not giving wrong results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is giving wrong results, replace it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Since you have already seeded the tank with Ammonia and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > relevant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > bacteria, I would definatly start adding fish but not too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gradually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > as in this case it may lose a major chunk of the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > grown but obviously gradually is the safer method to move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > forward.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Dont forget to do the water changes to avoid any chemicals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > have been present either due to the action of raw ammonia in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > or due to any other stuff. Water change before adding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > is allways a good idea unless the tank is in the middle of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Your cycle has finished.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > An eclipse tank will not be able to reach the levels of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > tank to deprive a tank of all its nitrates so the Nitrates are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > definatly there. It is however possible that they probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > reached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > saturation point beyond which the test kit fails. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > after all they are chemical reactions and can have such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    effects.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > test your tap water too for nitrates to see if the kit is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    working
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > fine and if it is, do the water changes and then test for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > again. Checking the tap water will rule out the possibility of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > test kit not working and testing after a large water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > rule out the possibility of the saturation level of nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > effecting the test kit. This is the only reason I could think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5880 From: joesalpepe Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Two qusetions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one pet paradise fish that lives on my porch in a wood half-keg barrel. He will be fine this winter outside.I think I heard firemouths also can thrive in cooler temps.I put plexi-glass over the top of the barrel during the winter to keep the water a little warmer.Would the firemouth like these conditions? About twenty years ago there was a strain of angelfish that was pure white with a bright orange cap .They were beautifu,does this strain still exist? Thanks for the feedback on the ghost shrimp joe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5881 From: Lorelei Cosner Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is sea salt from the store good to use in the aquarium?  I buy that instead of regular salt for cooking, and it would be neat if I can use it for my fishies too. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lorelei


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    God bless you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5882 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the tank for about 2 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3 green) and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami about 1 month maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a little longer and the one tiger barb for about 4 months or so. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is constantly at 76. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really cloudy looking right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however just clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    filters so I don't know if that caused it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > need more info. what are the water peramiters? what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > how long has the tank been up? how long have you had the fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5883 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pH is 7.6, no meds, and I use AquaSafe water treatment to remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chlorine/chloralamine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Very frankly. I hate the thought when a fish stops eating. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > very serious sign that something is not right but fish can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > recovered from this situation if the cause is known.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > As Patrick said, we need more information about the setup then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this. What size is the tank and volume. How long ago was it setup,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what water conditioners do you use, what is the PH and any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    changes?,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tested for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates? what are the results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (values please), how many and what all fish are there, any plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > any CO2 pumping? Did you treat with any medications recently?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5884 From: straubtyler Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What kind of fish died? I have never had barbs but have read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they can get aggresive. Did the dead fish look like they were picked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on? maby a fish killed them.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the tank for about 2 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3 green) and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami about 1 month maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about 4 months or so. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is constantly at 76. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really cloudy looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however just clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > need more info. what are the water peramiters? what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > how long has the tank been up? how long have you had the fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5885 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 green barbs died..I did not see any apparent markings that may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have been related to fighting and I never did see them picking on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    each other before (well not to the point where it would kill them)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My water is still very cloudy..getting a little concerned because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    none of the fish are eating now and they are all just hiding in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 caves


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What kind of fish died? I have never had barbs but have read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they can get aggresive. Did the dead fish look like they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    picked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on? maby a fish killed them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the tank for about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3 green) and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami about 1 month
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about 4 months or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is constantly at 76.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really cloudy looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however just clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > need more info. what are the water peramiters? what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > how long has the tank been up? how long have you had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except one and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding. What could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > and what do I need to do before they all start dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5886 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know, he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5887 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Internal bacteria?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    All of their gills looked ok last time I checked (a few days ago)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sometimes fish die for no reason that can really be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    explained. I doubt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there was much you could have done that you didn't do. For now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > watching them and see what happens. Did the problem with the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gill get better. You said one of them had a gill that looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    funny a while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you think that the fish that died may have had an internal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > parasite? All of the fish are not eating like usual and they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > seem to be hiding in the caves. I don't want anymore to die so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > need some opinions fast!! Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5888 From: shortlid Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: New angel geting beat-up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I added a small angel to my community tank. Three scissors tails,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    three Teras, one Pleco, two Corys, two barbs, one black Molly, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hatchet, three Danios, and one two half inch Gourmie. The Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gourmie the largest thing in the tank has hassled the angel since I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    put him in. He seems to be nipping the side of the angel. The angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is eating but is not swimming well and gets stuck in plants allot??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5889 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I would firstly raise the temperature in the tank to at least 82 F. Barbs like te warmer temperatures. It might help them along abit. Is there any imformation you can give that you haven't said already?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    DON'T feel like you have failed many things happen in the hobby that aren't right but you should never give up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    try and give any information you can, we will get them through this. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 10/06/04 21:05:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know, he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5890 From: emijer Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: I Need Opinions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 weeks ago I bought 2 algea eaters 1 for each of my tanks. About 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    days later I started seeing white on my Jack Dempsey. I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    medicine and salt to the tank. Next morning I lost 2 fish in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank and 1 in the other. The algea eaters were fist to go. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    faithfully changed the water, took out carbon filter, tested the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water, turned up the heater and carefully watched the fish. In the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    end I lost 2 neons 2 tetras 1 algea eater in my small tank and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    algea eater, 1 tiger and 1 red fin shark in my large tank. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    had these fish for about 5-6 months I called the petstore and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    said that the water was too cold it was 76-77 degrees they said they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    need to be in 80 degrees. Then she said it was stress from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them home from the store. I said I believe the ick came from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you. They said the warrenty is good for 24 hrs only and besides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your the one that did not properly care for them. I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know how long is the incubation for ick and which one of us is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrong. And if there is anything I can do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Heidi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    45 gallon with 1 yellow that starts with Lou???, 1 striped not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exactly what she is and a jack,dempsey.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    20 gallon with 1 back molly and 4 dainos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5891 From: emijer Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: I Need Opinions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 weeks ago I bought 2 algea eaters 1 for each of my tanks. About 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    days later I started seeing white on my Jack Dempsey. I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    medicine and salt to the tank. Next morning I lost 2 fish in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank and 1 in the other. The algea eaters were fist to go. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    faithfully changed the water, took out carbon filter, tested the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water, turned up the heater and carefully watched the fish. In the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    end I lost 2 neons 2 tetras 1 algea eater in my small tank and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    algea eater, 1 tiger and 1 red fin shark in my large tank. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    had these fish for about 5-6 months I called the petstore and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    said that the water was too cold it was 76-77 degrees they said they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    need to be in 80 degrees. Then she said it was stress from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them home from the store. I said I believe the ick came from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you. They said the warrenty is good for 24 hrs only and besides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your the one that did not properly care for them. I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know how long is the incubation for ick and which one of us is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrong. And if there is anything I can do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Heidi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    45 gallon with 1 yellow that starts with Lou???, 1 striped not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exactly what she is and a jack,dempsey.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    20 gallon with 1 back molly and 4 dainos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5892 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only lost 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    little barb :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harrison" <sarah@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would firstly raise the temperature in the tank to at least 82
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    F. Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > like te warmer temperatures. It might help them along abit. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > imformation you can give that you haven't said already?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > DON'T feel like you have failed many things happen in the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that aren't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > right but you should never give up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > try and give any information you can, we will get them through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Date: 10/06/04 21:05:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know, he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5893 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Have you got any air in the tank. We have in all tanks a air curtain/stone plus the filter gives off air bubbles. If the water is cloudy that is probably why the fish are going up for air. Do a small water change raise the temp and see in a few hours. Raising the temp should also help with the cloudiness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 10/06/04 22:49:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only lost 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    little barb :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harrison" <sarah@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  I would firstly raise the temperature in the tank to at least 82
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    F. Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > like te warmer temperatures. It might help them along abit. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > imformation you can give that you haven't said already?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > DON'T feel like you have failed many things happen in the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that aren't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > right but you should never give up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > try and give any information you can, we will get them through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Date: 10/06/04 21:05:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know, he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5894 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ick is in EVERY tank. it is a parasite that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    naturally in all water supplies. unless you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    runing copper or a uv sterilizer that has the bulb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    changed every 5-6 months. many of us do not see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    effects of the parasite because it is not able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    latch on to the fish when it is happy and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the slime coat on the fishes body is its immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    system. whenever a fish is under any stres, whether
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it is from being chased, poor water quality, new fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    being added, or sudden changes in chemistry, the slime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    coat is thinnned and the parasite is able to latch on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and burrow into the flesh of the fish. at first signs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you can do a salt water or fresh water bath, depending
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on what type of fish, for 30 seconds to 2 minutes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which will often kill the parasite. for fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish you use salt water and vice versa as the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    parasite strains are unable to cope with the opposite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    environment. don't do this method if the fish has had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ick for more than a day or 2. i have also had success
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with putting them in a container of their tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and mega dosing with methalyne blue or malachite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    green. i am talking about 30 drops or so in a quart of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water. i leave them in this for 2 minutes then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    transfer into another container with a lighter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dilution for the same duration, and then into a third
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    container of clean aquarium water before returning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them to the tank. in any manner, a fish store is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    responsible for the health of the fish up to the time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you walk out the door. they have no control over what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    happens to the fish between the store and your house.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i am sure that you treated it well, and just had a bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    experience, but a lot of times they get shaken,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dropped, sloshed and poured in, instead of a smooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ride with proper 45 minute acclimation. unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish had ick in the bag, you can't really go after the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    store, especially when they do have a 24 hour policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    many stores have no guarantee because they used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have 24-72 hour warranties, but inexperienced people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    would bring in healthy water sample claiming that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was their tank water when it was not. any way, sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to hear about your loss, but there is nothing you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do about ick, it is like the old saying "ick happens"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- emijer <emijer@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 weeks ago I bought 2 algea eaters 1 for each of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tanks. About 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > days later I started seeing white on my Jack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dempsey. I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > medicine and salt to the tank. Next morning I lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 fish in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank and 1 in the other. The algea eaters were fist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to go. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > faithfully changed the water, took out carbon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter, tested the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > water, turned up the heater and carefully watched
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the fish. In the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > end I lost 2 neons 2 tetras 1 algea eater in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > small tank and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > algea eater, 1 tiger and 1 red fin shark in my large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > had these fish for about 5-6 months I called the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > petstore and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > said that the water was too cold it was 76-77
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > degrees they said they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > need to be in 80 degrees. Then she said it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stress from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them home from the store. I said I believe the ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > came from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you. They said the warrenty is good for 24 hrs only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and besides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your the one that did not properly care for them. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > know how long is the incubation for ick and which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one of us is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrong. And if there is anything I can do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 45 gallon with 1 yellow that starts with Lou???, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > striped not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > exactly what she is and a jack,dempsey.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 20 gallon with 1 back molly and 4 dainos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5895 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    generally in my experience, cloudy water is due to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lack of beneficial bacteria. try adding stress zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 green barbs died..I did not see any apparent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > markings that may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have been related to fighting and I never did see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them picking on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > each other before (well not to the point where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > would kill them)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My water is still very cloudy..getting a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > concerned because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > none of the fish are eating now and they are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just hiding in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 caves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > What kind of fish died? I have never had barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > but have read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > they can get aggresive. Did the dead fish look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > like they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > picked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > on? maby a fish killed them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank for about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > green) and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > about 1 month
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 4 months or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > constantly at 76.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cloudy looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > need more info. what are the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > peramiters? what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > how long has the tank been up? how long have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > would really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > except one and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > what is causing it?? They are also all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hiding. What could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > and what do I need to do before they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > start dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5896 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    what about your nitrate levels, most tap water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    starting out with excessive nitrate which most dechlor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do not remove. test your ph, nitrite, ammonia, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pH is 7.6, no meds, and I use AquaSafe water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > treatment to remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > chlorine/chloralamine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Very frankly. I hate the thought when a fish stops
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > eating. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > very serious sign that something is not right but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > recovered from this situation if the cause is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > known.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As Patrick said, we need more information about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the setup then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > this. What size is the tank and volume. How long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ago was it setup,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what water conditioners do you use, what is the PH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > changes?,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tested for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates? what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are the results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (values please), how many and what all fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there, any plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > any CO2 pumping? Did you treat with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > medications recently?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > and what do I need to do before they all start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5897 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "cleaning" the filters depending on your definition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can be fatal, if you wipe out the bacteria. basically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if the water is flowing correctly the filter itself
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    does not need to be touched, but the carbon does need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to be changed every 4-6 weeks depending on flow rate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for about 2 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3 green)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > about 1 month maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > months or so. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > constantly at 76. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cloudy looking right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > need more info. what are the water peramiters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > how long has the tank been up? how long have you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > had the fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > and what do I need to do before they all start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5898 From: paul helms Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    as long as it is natural sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Lorelei Cosner <loreleicosner@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is sea salt from the store good to use in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > aquarium? I buy that instead of regular salt for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cooking, and it would be neat if I can use it for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fishies too. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > God bless you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Zoo Dino Marine Tycoon group at:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zdmtyc/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5899 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dont quit.. i had a simialr issue when i came back from vacation i even posted saying tha ti wanted to quit like you but lots of members got me through it and i only had 3 deaths... which i am still sad about but anyhow the point is.. keep going.. even if you save one it is one that would have died... i still dont know exactly what happeend with my tank but i am more knowledgable about my tank in whole after this.. as you willl be... keep doing your water tests and water changes.. do add or change anything untill you hear from a few ppl on diong it... if there not eating much i would be putting much food into the water cuase that is just amking the water more dirty cause 1 they arnt eating it and then 2 they can surive weeks without food  or so i have been told... i have really never had cloudy water so i dont know what to do but i am sure it is linked to your problem.. are you cleanign out your filter when or after doing water changes??? i also squirt stress coat or try to on my sick fish who knows if it helps but seems to calm them down and if they are like crashing on the rocks and all will help their slime coat... if you need someoen to talk to i am on most nights doing research and working on my thesis.. feel free to add me to your messenger if you have it... gilliananderson77@...  or on aol if you have aim with this addy shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know, he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5900 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You said you just cleaned your filters... what kind of filters and how did you clean them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What kind/brand of tests are you using to test for ammonia and nitrites?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5901 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    well if he is giogn for air then the water is lacking it is there a air stone or anything... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only lost 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    little barb :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5902 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i must be lucky my lfs has 14 days for fish warrenty and i have used it but i bet many dont.. as it is kinda a pain and just easy to buy another on the next trip rather than making a special trip.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ick is in EVERY tank.  it is a parasite that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    naturally in all water supplies.  unless you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    runing copper or a uv sterilizer that has the bulb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    changed every 5-6 months.  many of us do not see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    effects of the parasite because it is not able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    latch on to the fish when it is happy and healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the slime coat on the fishes body is its immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    system.  whenever a fish is under any stres, whether
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it is from being chased, poor water quality, new fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    being added, or sudden changes in chemistry, the slime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    coat is thinnned and the parasite is able to latch on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and burrow into the flesh of the fish.  at first signs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you can do a salt water or fresh water bath, depending
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on what type of fish, for 30 seconds to 2 minutes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which will often kill the parasite.  for fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish you use salt water and vice versa as the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    parasite strains are unable to cope with the opposite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    environment.  don't do this method if the fish has had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ick for more than a day or 2.  i have also had success
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with putting them in a container of their tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and mega dosing with methalyne blue or malachite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    green. i am talking about 30 drops or so in a quart of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water.  i leave them in this for 2 minutes then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    transfer into another container with a lighter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dilution for the same duration, and then into a third
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    container of clean aquarium water before returning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them to the tank.  in any manner, a fish store is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    responsible for the health of the fish up to the time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you walk out the door.  they have no control over what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    happens to the fish between the store and your house.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i am sure that you treated it well, and just had a bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    experience, but a lot of times they get shaken,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dropped, sloshed and poured in, instead of a smooth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ride with proper 45 minute acclimation.  unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish had ick in the bag, you can't really go after the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    store, especially when they do have a 24 hour policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    many stores have no guarantee because they used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have 24-72 hour warranties, but inexperienced people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    would bring in healthy water sample claiming that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was their tank water when it was not. any way, sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to hear about your loss, but there is nothing you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do about ick, it is like the old saying "ick happens"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5903 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I cleaned them in some tank water I had siphoned out when doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    small water change. The filters already have carbon in them, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are by AquaTech. I am using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kit.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You said you just cleaned your filters... what kind of filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and how did you clean them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What kind/brand of tests are you using to test for ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nitrites?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5904 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have 2 airstones in the tank, I hadn't noticed this until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday when he started to do it. Kinda confused...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > well if he is giogn for air then the water is lacking it is there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a air stone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or anything... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little barb :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5905 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    well after buying 2 books after my fiasco weeks ago i read that there is a possiblity that there is too much oxygen in the tank mayb eyou have that issue.. dont ppl normally only have one airstone in a tank of you rsize.. i know i do.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have 2 airstones in the tank, I hadn't noticed this until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday when he started to do it. Kinda confused...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5906 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would also like to add that I saw some poop that was a white color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and looked segmented. What might this indicate? I read that it could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be internal parasites. Any ideas?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > well after buying 2 books after my fiasco weeks ago i read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > possiblity that there is too much oxygen in the tank mayb eyou
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have that issue..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dont ppl normally only have one airstone in a tank of you rsize..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i know i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > do.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have 2 airstones in the tank, I hadn't noticed this until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > yesterday when he started to do it. Kinda confused...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5907 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       H'o Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           How do you add chemicals when fish are in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you dilute them, and add them VERY gradually?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only lost 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > little barb :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Harrison" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I would firstly raise the temperature in the tank to at least 82
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > F. Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > like te warmer temperatures. It might help them along abit. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > imformation you can give that you haven't said already?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > DON'T feel like you have failed many things happen in the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that aren't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > right but you should never give up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > try and give any information you can, we will get them through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Date: 10/06/04 21:05:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know, he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5908 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The only chemical I add is the AquaSafe when doing water changes. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this case, I fill up my bucket that I only use for water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    make sure it is the right temp that matches the tank and then add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the AquaSafe. Then I put the treated water in the tank.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > H'o Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > How do you add chemicals when fish are in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you dilute them, and add them VERY gradually?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lost 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > little barb :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Harrison" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I would firstly raise the temperature in the tank to at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    82
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > F. Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > like te warmer temperatures. It might help them along abit. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > imformation you can give that you haven't said already?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > DON'T feel like you have failed many things happen in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > that aren't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > right but you should never give up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > try and give any information you can, we will get them through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > this. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Date: 10/06/04 21:05:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5909 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin, something I just though of is something might have gotten into the tank.  It could have been dust from chemicals, somebody put their fingers in the tank after touching chemicals, etc.  Have you sprayed anything in the room in the last few days?  Changed what you are feeding?  This is going to be a lot of work, but I suggest you change about 20 gallons as soon as you can, then wait a day and do it again.  It might cause a little shock to the fish, but not much, and not as much as a chemical might cause if it has gotten into the tank. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5910 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I was once a believer that air stones increase O2 levels in the tank.  I researched the issue, and looked at the science and I can say that the science does not support the idea that an air stone can raise O2 levels.  There is 0 chance of ever getting O2 levels in the tank above those of the atmosphere unless you are using O2 injection (similar to CO2 injection), which would be a bad and dangerous idea.  The key to gas exchange is water movement, and power filters create enough movement to take care of the levels of O2 in the water. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5911 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I haven't sprayed anything near the fish tank. I don't know if maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I washed my hands and didn't get all the soap off, but I am usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very careful to avoid getting anything in the tank. I have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeding the same flake food since I got the fish, so I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that would be it. 20 gallons is a lot. Do you still recommend that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do this and if so, I do it all at once? I'm confused now!! I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know if they would survive me changing the water like that. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        think they would?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin, something I just though of is something might have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gotten into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. It could have been dust from chemicals, somebody put their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fingers in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank after touching chemicals, etc. Have you sprayed anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > room in the last few days? Changed what you are feeding? This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be a lot of work, but I suggest you change about 20 gallons as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        soon as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can, then wait a day and do it again. It might cause a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shock to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, but not much, and not as much as a chemical might cause if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gotten into the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5912 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet to see a tap water (Without an RO unit or a denitrator fitted) to have zero nitrates."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My tap water has 0 nitrates, and I live in a farm area. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5913 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Find a store that will help you.  Even w-mart gives 3 days for dead fish, petmart gives 2 weeks, and many fish stores give that long or longer, but that isn't really an issue here.  The ich infection was caused after you got the fish home, not at the store.  They seem to have not been much help telling you how to maintain an aquarium. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just wondering how you responded.  Did they instruct you on how to care for the fish and did you follow those instructions?  If you didn't follow their instructions, try again.  If they didn't instruct you, or they did instruct you and you followed them, they have decided that they don't need your money.  Drive as far as it takes not to go back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Whatever you do, do research.  Go to a library and read every book they have about setting up and keeping an aquarium.  The internet is a good starting place for information, but books tend to have more accurate information.  Also, keep asking questions here and any other aquarium forum (on or off line).  Also, make sure you read Paul's post.  That looked like some good discussion about causes and treatments for ich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 weeks ago I bought 2 algea eaters 1 for each of my tanks.  About 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            days later I started seeing white on my Jack Dempsey.  I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            medicine and salt to the tank.  Next morning I lost 2 fish in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank and 1 in the other.  The algea eaters were fist to go.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            faithfully changed the water, took out carbon filter, tested the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water, turned up the heater and carefully watched the fish.  In the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            end I lost 2 neons 2 tetras 1 algea eater in my small tank and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            algea eater, 1 tiger and 1 red fin shark in my large tank. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had these fish for about 5-6 months I called the petstore and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            said that the water was too cold it was 76-77 degrees they said they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            need to be in 80 degrees.  Then she said it was stress from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them home from the store.  I  said I believe the ick came from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you.  They said the warrenty is good for 24 hrs only and besides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            your the one that did not properly care for them.  I would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            know how long is the incubation for ick and which one of us is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wrong. And if there is anything I can do. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Heidi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            45  gallon with 1 yellow that starts with Lou???, 1 striped not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            exactly what she is and a jack,dempsey.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            20 gallon with 1 back molly and 4 dainos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5914 From: dawana325 Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi guys,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My name is Dawana and I've been lurking (and enjoying immensely)on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the list for the last couple of weeks. I have a 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            established freshwater aquarium that has been up and running for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            last 2 years or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have just started a fishless cycle on a 10 gallon quarantine tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because I'm tired of guessing/hoping/praying that the fish I buy to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            add to my establish tank live and don't infect my current fish. (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            keep trying to add neon tetras for a school and lose them all and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            also lost 2 juli cory cats in past few months.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have been following the threads on Barbara's fishless cyle. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            also keep a log on my 29 gallon that I just started keeping actively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            again since I started the QT.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Anyway, my questions/concerns:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1) I also have 0 nitrAtes in my tap water. I have been testing my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water with the same kit for the past 2+ years. Are you guys saying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that my API test kit is wrong too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2) My established tank (29 gallon) only recently - last 2 weeks -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            has had live plants added to it - buts lots of great natural looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            algae on the fake plant leaves and top of caves. Anyway, it runs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nitrAtes at zero as well. Are you suggesting that it should be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            as well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3) I have been trying to feed my fish twice a day versus once (which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've been doing for the past couple of years). I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            experimenting with the right amount of food over the last month or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so. I recently noticed an ammonia spike (up to .25 ppm), but I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a new apple snail in the tank (wondering if this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            contributing - his leftover food too).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            4)Different topic - Any hints on how I can lower my pH or should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            just continue to live with it (see stats below). It's at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7.6. I need to get a high pH test kit to be sure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do water changes every couple of weeks with vacuuming and change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my Penguin 330 media monthly or thereabouts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks in advance for your comments. I really enjoy the list!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon (0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, moderately hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water, pH 7.6)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 endlers livebearers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            5 adult & juvenile female guppies (looking to give these away)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            4-5 juvenile crossbreed endlers/guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 baby guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            5 black skirt tetras (lost one recently - others seem fine)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 zebra danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 neon tetra-they keep dying :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 regular cory cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 juli cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 apple snail

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 betta in a 2 gallon tank


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > You mean your tap water also has zero nitrates as per the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If so then I suggest you to really get another kit and get this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tested by the fish store people. 15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > see a tap water (Without an RO unit or a denitrator fitted) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > zero nitrates.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5915 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Then I suppose you mix it thoroughly, after you're perfectly sure you added the right amount?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The only chemical I add is the AquaSafe when doing water changes. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this case, I fill up my bucket that I only use for water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > make sure it is the right temp that matches the tank and then add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the AquaSafe. Then I put the treated water in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > H'o Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > How do you add chemicals when fish are in the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Do you dilute them, and add them VERY gradually?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > not really any other info to give, other than the stuff I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > already said. My gourami seems to be going up to get air every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > minute or so, not sure if this is normal, but I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > do this before. It's like he's hurrying to find air. I'm still a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > down from my barb, he was my favorite fish :( I guess since I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > done ok since I have had an aquarium since June and have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > lost 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish..but it's still a bit upsetting to me, I got attached to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > little barb :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Harrison" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I would firstly raise the temperature in the tank to at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 82
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > F. Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > like te warmer temperatures. It might help them along abit. Is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > there any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > imformation you can give that you haven't said already?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > DON'T feel like you have failed many things happen in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that aren't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > right but you should never give up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > try and give any information you can, we will get them through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > this. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Date: 10/06/04 21:05:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Ok now I'm REALLY starting to get concerned. I went up to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > to look at my fish, like I usually do, and the orange barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > flipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > out and swam into the side of the tank. Next thing I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > lying on his back on the gravel, dead. He has never done this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > before, and has always come to the front of the tank when I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I feel like a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > failure...now I am down to 4 fish and getting very upset and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > frustrated..I just feel like quitting :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ~-->
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > -~->
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5916 From: Erin Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't know, that is a good question. Does anyone else have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            opinions or have you read this? thanks


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > well after buying 2 books after my fiasco weeks ago i read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > possiblity that there is too much oxygen in the tank mayb eyou
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have that issue..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > dont ppl normally only have one airstone in a tank of you rsize..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i know i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > do.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have 2 airstones in the tank, I hadn't noticed this until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yesterday when he started to do it. Kinda confused...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5917 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I guess your tank temperature has been stable. No sudden changes for a few hours as the Canadian cold front has moved in? As for the light-colored fecal-casts, the only thing I remember about them is associated with an internal infection. I'd changed 50% of my water weekly for years, and had long-lived fish. Why don't you call Jungle-Labs in Cibolo, Texas. They have an 800 number. (I'll look it up, after this letter). They've been helpful with some of my problems. One product that brought some of my very sick fish around was Binox, by JunglLabs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I haven't sprayed anything near the fish tank. I don't know if maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I washed my hands and didn't get all the soap off, but I am usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > very careful to avoid getting anything in the tank. I have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > feeding the same flake food since I got the fish, so I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that would be it. 20 gallons is a lot. Do you still recommend that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > do this and if so, I do it all at once? I'm confused now!! I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > know if they would survive me changing the water like that. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > think they would?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin, something I just though of is something might have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gotten into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank. It could have been dust from chemicals, somebody put their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fingers in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the tank after touching chemicals, etc. Have you sprayed anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > room in the last few days? Changed what you are feeding? This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > be a lot of work, but I suggest you change about 20 gallons as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > soon as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > can, then wait a day and do it again. It might cause a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shock to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish, but not much, and not as much as a chemical might cause if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gotten into the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5918 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I apologize. Jungle-Labs is'nt offering their phone number now. But their website has a contact page where you can express your problem by filling a form online, and be contacted by a freshwater-fish specialist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Their webaddress:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.junglelabs.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I haven't sprayed anything near the fish tank. I don't know if maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I washed my hands and didn't get all the soap off, but I am usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > very careful to avoid getting anything in the tank. I have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > feeding the same flake food since I got the fish, so I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that would be it. 20 gallons is a lot. Do you still recommend that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > do this and if so, I do it all at once? I'm confused now!! I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > know if they would survive me changing the water like that. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > think they would?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin, something I just though of is something might have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gotten into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank. It could have been dust from chemicals, somebody put their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fingers in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the tank after touching chemicals, etc. Have you sprayed anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > room in the last few days? Changed what you are feeding? This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > be a lot of work, but I suggest you change about 20 gallons as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > soon as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > can, then wait a day and do it again. It might cause a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shock to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish, but not much, and not as much as a chemical might cause if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gotten into the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5919 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: adding question about water changes ...Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wow a bucket what a idea.. i have to use pitchers and a heck of a lot of them like 30  would say.. i do about 10 at a time so that the water can warm up and not be too cold but it does go down to like 72 for about 30 mintues.. i know this doesnt sound good but i dont get how you would do it other wise.. i have seen ppl suck it back in there with their vacumn but that doesnt work when it is going uphill and i have it on a high book shelf.. mabye i need help ideas shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The only chemical I add is the AquaSafe when doing water changes. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this case, I fill up my bucket that I only use for water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            make sure it is the right temp that matches the tank and then add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the AquaSafe. Then I put the treated water in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5920 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You Lucky B****** Patrick.. My tap water has 40mg/l Nitrate levels and I had been devastated coz of this as water changes will not bring Nitrates down to safe levels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 07 October 2004 05:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Weird test results

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet to see a tap water (Without an RO unit or a denitrator fitted) to have zero nitrates."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My tap water has 0 nitrates, and I live in a farm area. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5921 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I also suggest you add aquarium salt to the water. Add 1 table spoon per 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gallons as this will help de-stress the fish. Though this is a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              controversial issue but go ahead and try it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: Erin [mailto:utacutie@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 07 October 2004 02:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I don't know, that is a good question. Does anyone else have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >opinions or have you read this? thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> well after buying 2 books after my fiasco weeks ago i read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >there is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> possiblity that there is too much oxygen in the tank mayb eyou
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >have that issue..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> dont ppl normally only have one airstone in a tank of you rsize..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >i know i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> do.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> I have 2 airstones in the tank, I hadn't noticed this until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> yesterday when he started to do it. Kinda confused...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5922 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dawana,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you are referring to my statement that Tap water has zero nitrates.. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              was prolly an understatement and I was considering only the UK and India as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my regions. As Patrick said he also has zero nitrates so I was wrong there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, a tank with fish will not have zero nitrates.. though they may be as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              low as 10mg/l but also depends on the frequency of water changes. Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are produced very slowly in the tank and if you keep up with water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with nitrate free water, they will remain at the lowest levels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Live Plants cannot survive in the absence of nitraes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: dawana325 [mailto:dawanalea@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 07 October 2004 03:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Weird test results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >My name is Dawana and I've been lurking (and enjoying immensely)on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >the list for the last couple of weeks. I have a 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >established freshwater aquarium that has been up and running for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >last 2 years or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I have just started a fishless cycle on a 10 gallon quarantine tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >because I'm tired of guessing/hoping/praying that the fish I buy to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >add to my establish tank live and don't infect my current fish. (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >keep trying to add neon tetras for a school and lose them all and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >also lost 2 juli cory cats in past few months.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I have been following the threads on Barbara's fishless cyle. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >also keep a log on my 29 gallon that I just started keeping actively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >again since I started the QT.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Anyway, my questions/concerns:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >1) I also have 0 nitrAtes in my tap water. I have been testing my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >water with the same kit for the past 2+ years. Are you guys saying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >that my API test kit is wrong too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >2) My established tank (29 gallon) only recently - last 2 weeks -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >has had live plants added to it - buts lots of great natural looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >algae on the fake plant leaves and top of caves. Anyway, it runs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >nitrAtes at zero as well. Are you suggesting that it should be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >as well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >3) I have been trying to feed my fish twice a day versus once (which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I've been doing for the past couple of years). I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >experimenting with the right amount of food over the last month or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >so. I recently noticed an ammonia spike (up to .25 ppm), but I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >have a new apple snail in the tank (wondering if this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >contributing - his leftover food too).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >4)Different topic - Any hints on how I can lower my pH or should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >just continue to live with it (see stats below). It's at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >7.6. I need to get a high pH test kit to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I do water changes every couple of weeks with vacuuming and change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >my Penguin 330 media monthly or thereabouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Thanks in advance for your comments. I really enjoy the list!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >29 gallon (0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, moderately hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >water, pH 7.6)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >2 endlers livebearers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >5 adult & juvenile female guppies (looking to give these away)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >4-5 juvenile crossbreed endlers/guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >2 baby guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >5 black skirt tetras (lost one recently - others seem fine)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >3 zebra danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >1 neon tetra-they keep dying :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >2 regular cory cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >1 juli cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >1 apple snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >1 betta in a 2 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ><nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> You mean your tap water also has zero nitrates as per the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> If so then I suggest you to really get another kit and get this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> tested by the fish store people. 15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> see a tap water (Without an RO unit or a denitrator fitted) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> zero nitrates.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 5923 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have you tried raising the temp?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 10/07/04 05:57:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't know, that is a good question. Does anyone else have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                opinions or have you read this? thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > well after buying 2 books after my fiasco weeks ago i read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > possiblity that there is too much oxygen in the tank mayb eyou
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have that issue..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dont ppl normally only have one airstone in a tank of you rsize..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i know i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > do.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have 2 airstones in the tank, I hadn't noticed this until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > yesterday when he started to do it. Kinda confused...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5924 From: Nimish Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: adding question about water changes ...Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have to weekly change water in 2x 100g tanks and 3x 29 gallon tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and if I were to use a pitcher to do it, it would take me all week to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                probably reach half the mark.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a 210 Litre water butt with a Aquaclear 802 pump and I fill in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this water butt with water. First cold water and then hot water from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                central heating. Takes a bit of a practice to get the correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperature. I keep the temperature of this water butt about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degrees above tank temperature and let the powerhead circulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water with all required additives (Water conditioner, PH Down,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Easylife) for about 2 hours. This will get rid of any gasses in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water that came thru the central heating hot water. To make it a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more perfect, you could use a powerful power filter with only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                activated carbon media fitted as this will remove any unwanted stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Although 2 hrs is not enough for carbon to act but better then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nothing. once the water has cooled down to the tank temperature (1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degree over and below does not really matter much for a large tank) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just connect the power head hose to another hose and diver its flow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                into the tank which i just syphoned. Takes about 20 mins per 100g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank to syphon and refill. so overall it is about an hour or and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                halfs job for me to change water on all 5 of my tanks depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how much I am changing. Sometimes i decide to change 50% on one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tanks and keep the cycle going.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wow a bucket what a idea.. i have to use pitchers and a heck of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lot of them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > like 30 would say.. i do about 10 at a time so that the water can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                warm up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and not be too cold but it does go down to like 72 for about 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mintues.. i know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this doesnt sound good but i dont get how you would do it other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wise.. i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seen ppl suck it back in there with their vacumn but that doesnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                work when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is going uphill and i have it on a high book shelf.. mabye i need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                help ideas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The only chemical I add is the AquaSafe when doing water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this case, I fill up my bucket that I only use for water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > make sure it is the right temp that matches the tank and then add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the AquaSafe. Then I put the treated water in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5925 From: Erin Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: adding question about water changes ...Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I haven't tried raising the temp or using salt, how do I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                doing that? How slowly should the temp be raised? Also, I woke up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this morning and the fish were all still hiding, looking very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lethargic. The water looks almost brownish colored, very murky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                looking. The fish don't look too well :(


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have to weekly change water in 2x 100g tanks and 3x 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and if I were to use a pitcher to do it, it would take me all week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > probably reach half the mark.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have a 210 Litre water butt with a Aquaclear 802 pump and I fill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this water butt with water. First cold water and then hot water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > central heating. Takes a bit of a practice to get the correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > temperature. I keep the temperature of this water butt about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > degrees above tank temperature and let the powerhead circulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water with all required additives (Water conditioner, PH Down,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Easylife) for about 2 hours. This will get rid of any gasses in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water that came thru the central heating hot water. To make it a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more perfect, you could use a powerful power filter with only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > activated carbon media fitted as this will remove any unwanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Although 2 hrs is not enough for carbon to act but better then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nothing. once the water has cooled down to the tank temperature (1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > degree over and below does not really matter much for a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just connect the power head hose to another hose and diver its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > into the tank which i just syphoned. Takes about 20 mins per 100g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank to syphon and refill. so overall it is about an hour or and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > halfs job for me to change water on all 5 of my tanks depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > how much I am changing. Sometimes i decide to change 50% on one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tanks and keep the cycle going.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wow a bucket what a idea.. i have to use pitchers and a heck of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lot of them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > like 30 would say.. i do about 10 at a time so that the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > warm up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and not be too cold but it does go down to like 72 for about 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mintues.. i know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > this doesnt sound good but i dont get how you would do it other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wise.. i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > seen ppl suck it back in there with their vacumn but that doesnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > work when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is going uphill and i have it on a high book shelf.. mabye i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help ideas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The only chemical I add is the AquaSafe when doing water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > this case, I fill up my bucket that I only use for water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > make sure it is the right temp that matches the tank and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the AquaSafe. Then I put the treated water in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5926 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                When did you last do a water change on this? And after the water change if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                needed add the salt and keep the lights off. If you have a heater with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperature control thermostat on it, turn it to 28C or 82F. Though I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                recomend raising the temperature coz higher temperature reduces the water's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                oxygen carrying capacity. Moreover this method is most effective in treating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                whitespot/ick but for other disease, I am not sure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If water has turned murky brown, I think it needs a water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: Erin [mailto:utacutie@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 07 October 2004 12:26
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] adding question about water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >changes ...Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I haven't tried raising the temp or using salt, how do I go about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >doing that? How slowly should the temp be raised? Also, I woke up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >this morning and the fish were all still hiding, looking very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >lethargic. The water looks almost brownish colored, very murky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >looking. The fish don't look too well :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ><nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> I have to weekly change water in 2x 100g tanks and 3x 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> and if I were to use a pitcher to do it, it would take me all week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> probably reach half the mark.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> I have a 210 Litre water butt with a Aquaclear 802 pump and I fill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> this water butt with water. First cold water and then hot water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> central heating. Takes a bit of a practice to get the correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> temperature. I keep the temperature of this water butt about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> degrees above tank temperature and let the powerhead circulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> water with all required additives (Water conditioner, PH Down,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Easylife) for about 2 hours. This will get rid of any gasses in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> water that came thru the central heating hot water. To make it a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> more perfect, you could use a powerful power filter with only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> activated carbon media fitted as this will remove any unwanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Although 2 hrs is not enough for carbon to act but better then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> nothing. once the water has cooled down to the tank temperature (1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> degree over and below does not really matter much for a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >tank) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> just connect the power head hose to another hose and diver its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >flow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> into the tank which i just syphoned. Takes about 20 mins per 100g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> tank to syphon and refill. so overall it is about an hour or and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> halfs job for me to change water on all 5 of my tanks depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> how much I am changing. Sometimes i decide to change 50% on one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> tanks and keep the cycle going.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > wow a bucket what a idea.. i have to use pitchers and a heck of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> lot of them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > like 30 would say.. i do about 10 at a time so that the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> warm up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > and not be too cold but it does go down to like 72 for about 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> mintues.. i know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > this doesnt sound good but i dont get how you would do it other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> wise.. i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > seen ppl suck it back in there with their vacumn but that doesnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> work when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > is going uphill and i have it on a high book shelf.. mabye i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> help ideas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > The only chemical I add is the AquaSafe when doing water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > this case, I fill up my bucket that I only use for water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > make sure it is the right temp that matches the tank and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> > the AquaSafe. Then I put the treated water in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5927 From: emijer emijer Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: I Need Opinions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                All they said is "what is the water temp". Did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tell me what to do. I remembered some post from here
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and did research. I also called a few stores and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                asked them. So far the ones I have left are looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                great.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is their anyone from connecticut that knows of a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                store?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks Heidi





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Find a store that will help you. Even w-mart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gives 3 days for dead fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > petmart gives 2 weeks, and many fish stores give
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that long or longer, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that isn't really an issue here. The ich infection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was caused after you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish home, not at the store. They seem to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not been much help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > telling you how to maintain an aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just wondering how you responded. Did they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > instruct you on how to care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for the fish and did you follow those instructions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you didn't follow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > their instructions, try again. If they didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > instruct you, or they did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > instruct you and you followed them, they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > decided that they don't need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your money. Drive as far as it takes not to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Whatever you do, do research. Go to a library
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and read every book they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have about setting up and keeping an aquarium. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > internet is a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > starting place for information, but books tend to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have more accurate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > information. Also, keep asking questions here and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > any other aquarium forum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (on or off line). Also, make sure you read Paul's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > post. That looked like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > some good discussion about causes and treatments for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 weeks ago I bought 2 algea eaters 1 for each of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tanks. About 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > days later I started seeing white on my Jack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Dempsey. I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > medicine and salt to the tank. Next morning I lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 fish in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank and 1 in the other. The algea eaters were fist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to go. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > faithfully changed the water, took out carbon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter, tested the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water, turned up the heater and carefully watched
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish. In the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > end I lost 2 neons 2 tetras 1 algea eater in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > small tank and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > algea eater, 1 tiger and 1 red fin shark in my large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > had these fish for about 5-6 months I called the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > petstore and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > said that the water was too cold it was 76-77
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > degrees they said they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > need to be in 80 degrees. Then she said it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > stress from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them home from the store. I said I believe the ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > came from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you. They said the warrenty is good for 24 hrs only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and besides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your the one that did not properly care for them. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would like to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > know how long is the incubation for ick and which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one of us is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrong. And if there is anything I can do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Heidi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 45 gallon with 1 yellow that starts with Lou???, 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > striped not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > exactly what she is and a jack,dempsey.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 20 gallon with 1 back molly and 4 dainos.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                =====




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5928 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dang i have to figure soemthign else out.. takes me including cleaning on the tank about 4 hours atleast to do my 20 gallon... i just ifll up pitchers from the filter water at what temp it comes out and gently dump it in there.. im thinking or have been doing more frequent water dhanges so that doing the major 50 percent istn such a big ordeal... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have to weekly change water in 2x 100g tanks and 3x 29 gallon tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and if I were to use a pitcher to do it, it would take me all week to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                probably reach half the mark.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a 210 Litre water butt with a Aquaclear 802 pump and I fill in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this water butt with water. First cold water and then hot water from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                central heating. Takes a bit of a practice to get the correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperature. I keep the temperature of this water butt about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degrees above tank temperature and let the powerhead circulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water with all required additives (Water conditioner, PH Down,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Easylife) for about 2 hours. This will get rid of any gasses in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water that came thru the central heating hot water. To make it a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more perfect, you could use a powerful power filter with only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                activated carbon media fitted as this will remove any unwanted stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Although 2 hrs is not enough for carbon to act but better then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nothing. once the water has cooled down to the tank temperature (1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degree over and below does not really matter much for a large tank) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just connect the power head hose to another hose and diver its flow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                into the tank which i just syphoned. Takes about 20 mins per 100g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank to syphon and refill. so overall it is about an hour or and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                halfs job for me to change water on all 5 of my tanks depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how much I am changing. Sometimes i decide to change 50% on one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tanks and keep the cycle going.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5929 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Excuse me here, are you saying that the detritus in the filter does not need to cleaned off?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I understand this in regards to bioWheels but the they don't collect such much detritus if any.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would Re-Think the idea if not cleaning filters as two problems could be created,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1, the volume of water being able to pass thru the filter could be obstructed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2, a build-up of waste makes for a breeding ground for disease, bacteria and fungus.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would suggest cleaning the filter medium whenever it becomes too clogged for good flow and when it smells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But then that's my option, I could be wrong,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "cleaning" the filters depending on your definition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can be fatal, if you wipe out the bacteria.  basically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if the water is flowing correctly the filter itself
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                does not need to be touched, but the carbon does need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to be changed every 4-6 weeks depending on flow rate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for about 2 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3 green)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about 1 month maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > months or so. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constantly at 76. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cloudy looking right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > need more info.  what are the water peramiters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > how long has the tank been up?  how long have you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > had the fish? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and what do I need to do before they all start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5930 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it used to take me longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to find out work arounds. If I use the standard method of water changing even with using buckets to refill the tank, I would have been in hospital for back problems. 25% of 1 of my large tank needs 11 buckets of water. If you have a place to keep a water butt somewhere, it will be worth the effort and the money spent. I usually do this while watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon and the most tiresome job is to siphon the water out along with the floating debris at the bottom (dead leaves and fish poo etc.). refilling it is the easiest part ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 07 October 2004 16:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] adding question about water changes ...R...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dang i have to figure soemthign else out.. takes me including cleaning on the tank about 4 hours atleast to do my 20 gallon... i just ifll up pitchers from the filter water at what temp it comes out and gently dump it in there.. im thinking or have been doing more frequent water dhanges so that doing the major 50 percent istn such a big ordeal... shannon



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon ,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have to weekly change water in 2x 100g tanks and 3x 29 gallon tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and if I were to use a pitcher to do it, it would take me all week to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                probably reach half the mark.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a 210 Litre water butt with a Aquaclear 802 pump and I fill in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this water butt with water. First cold water and then hot water from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                central heating. Takes a bit of a practice to get the correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperature. I keep the temperature of this water butt about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degrees above tank temperature and let the powerhead circulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water with all required additives (Water conditioner, PH Down,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Easylife) for about 2 hours. This will get rid of any gasses in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water that came thru the central heating hot water. To make it a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more perfect, you could use a powerful power filter with only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                activated carbon media fitted as this will remove any unwanted stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Although 2 hrs is not enough for carbon to act but better then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nothing. once the water has cooled down to the tank temperature (1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degree over and below does not really matter much for a large tank) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just connect the power head hose to another hose and diver its flow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                into the tank which i just syphoned. Takes about 20 mins per 100g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank to syphon and refill. so overall it is about an hour or and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                halfs job for me to change water on all 5 of my tanks depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                how much I am changing. Sometimes i decide to change 50% on one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tanks and keep the cycle going.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5931 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent "Pro-Clear" , case solved.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                generally in my experience, cloudy water is due to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lack of beneficial bacteria.  try adding stress zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 green barbs died..I did not see any apparent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > markings that may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have been related to fighting and I never did see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them picking on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > each other before (well not to the point where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would kill them)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My water is still very cloudy..getting a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > concerned because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > none of the fish are eating now and they are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just hiding in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 caves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > What kind of fish died?  I have never had barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but have read that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they can get aggresive.  Did the dead fish look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > like they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > picked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on?  maby a fish killed them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank for about 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > green) and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about 1 month
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 4 months or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constantly at 76.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cloudy looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > need more info.  what are the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > peramiters?  what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > fish? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > how long has the tank been up?  how long have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > except one and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > what is causing it?? They are also all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hiding. What could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > and what do I need to do before they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > start dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5932 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Mark,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree with paul on this but I think the statement was not very clear. If the filter is not getting clogged and the flow rate is fine, I myself do not touch the filter at all. Only when its flow starts to reduce considerably that I decide to clean it. This can be anywhere between 2 months to 1 year.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have had a tank with a canister filter that I switched on last year October and have not touched it since. Last I opened the doors of the cabinet where the filter was sitting, it was covered with cobwebs and the so very arachnophobic me did not decide to do anything further. Now when I will empty that tank (very soon) is when that filter will be cleaned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If the filter is flowing fine, don’t touch it. It may not be the case with marine tanks however.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Mark & Peta [mailto:mbethke@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 07 October 2004 16:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Excuse me here, are you saying that the detritus in the filter does not need to cleaned off?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I understand this in regards to bioWheels but the they don't collect such much detritus if any.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would Re-Think the idea if not cleaning filters as two problems could be created,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1, the volume of water being able to pass thru the filter could be obstructed

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2, a build-up of waste makes for a breeding ground for disease, bacteria and fungus.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would suggest cleaning the filter medium whenever it becomes too clogged for good flow and when it smells.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But then that's my option, I could be wrong,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Mark J. Bethke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "cleaning" the filters depending on your definition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can be fatal, if you wipe out the bacteria.  basically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if the water is flowing correctly the filter itself
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                does not need to be touched, but the carbon does need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to be changed every 4-6 weeks depending on flow rate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: 20, had the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for about 2 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > months now, I now have 4 barbs (1 orange, 3 green)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and one pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gourami. I have had the green barbs and gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about 1 month maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a little longer and the one tiger barb for about 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > months or so. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have plastic plants, 2 caves, and the temp is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constantly at 76. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have 2 air pumps going too. The water is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cloudy looking right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > now but with no ammonia/nitrites. I did however just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filters so I don't know if that caused it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > need more info.  what are the water peramiters?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what tpye of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > how long has the tank been up?  how long have you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > had the fish? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > anything else you can provide would also help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > " Erin "
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Hi all, I had 2 fish die yesterday and I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > really appreciate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > some help!!! None of my fish are eating except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > what is causing it?? They are also all hiding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What could this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and what do I need to do before they all start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dying? Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > me :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Erin 29g-4tiger barbs, 1 gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 5933 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Plattie not eating and white tint on scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gota agree, there really is no reason for ADDING salt unless you use them Reverse osmosis things which strip the water of all NEEDED element of which must be replaced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for platys, they are used for cycling saltwater tanks and seem to be unaffected by the salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We must remember there are more then two habitats involved (salt/fresh water).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have brackish , that are about 1/2 way between the two , then areas that occasionally becomes salty (a lower area where the very high tides can influence) and even fish that migrate between salt and fresh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mangroves are yet another habitat which has various saline levels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So we must respect both ideas , no salt, some salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mark J. Bethke 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 1:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Plattie not eating and white tint on scales

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "We don't know why people insist on putting salt in with tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FRESHWATER fish. We have mollies, guppies, platies and now swords
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and have NEVER used salt. except twice for salt baths. yesterday we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bough 3 swords from the local fish shop and we have now got 84
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  babies from one of the females."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is easy to respond to.  All you have to do is a little research about where these fish come from.  Some of them come from freshwater, some from brackish water, and some mollies come from the Gulf of Mexico up the coast from Mexico to South Carolina!  While there is no need to add salt for most of them because they are raised in freshwater, they can and do live fine in slightly salted tanks.  Some mollies can live in marine tanks, and they are used to cycle some marine tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "there is no need to use salt!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are times when there is a usefulness for salt.  For regular use, I agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 5934 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is controversial with some people, but have you tried using some water from the cold side, and some water from the hot side, to get the water you pour in at close to the same temperature as the tank?  Also, there are 3 gallon buckets at w-mart that are about $2. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dang i have to figure soemthign else out.. takes me including cleaning on the tank about 4 hours atleast to do my 20 gallon... i just ifll up pitchers from the filter water at what temp it comes out and gently dump it in there.. im thinking or have been doing more frequent water dhanges so that doing the major 50 percent istn such a big ordeal... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5935 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: treating ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How high should I raise the tank temp to treat ich? I realize it must be done slowly, and I've increased aeration to compensate for the lower oxygen content in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5936 From: straubtyler Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: treating ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i have always heard 4 degres up to a maximum of 82F. this is for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tropicals you would not want to get goldfish that warm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > How high should I raise the tank temp to treat ich? I realize it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    must be done slowly, and I've increased aeration to compensate for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the lower oxygen content in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5937 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so you dump the bucket into the tank.. where are you filling the buckets in your bathtub... im thinking i should well i have been tryign to find a better way.. :mabyer if i let  one bucket sit out or 1 and 1/2 put the conditioner in it bu tthe only way i can get it into my tank would be lifting it.. and whjile i think i can do that it will demolish  my substrate.. you know.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it used to take me longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to find out work arounds. If I use the standard method of water changing even with using buckets to refill the tank, I would have been in hospital for back problems. 25% of 1 of my large tank needs 11 buckets of water. If you have a place to keep a water butt somewhere, it will be worth the effort and the money spent. I usually do this while watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon and the most tiresome job is to siphon the water out along with the floating debris at the bottom (dead leaves and fish poo etc.). refilling it is the easiest part ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5938 From: straubtyler Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I installed one of those goose neck focets on the kitchen sink so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can put a 5 gallon bucket in the sink. then i use a floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thermometer to get the temp right. water changes for my 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    take 20-30 min. depending on how many snails i pick out LOL if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pour the water in too fast the stones will move arund but not too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > so you dump the bucket into the tank.. where are you filling the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    buckets in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your bathtub... im thinking i should well i have been tryign to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    find a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > way.. :mabyer if i let one bucket sit out or 1 and 1/2 put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    conditioner in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it bu tthe only way i can get it into my tank would be lifting it..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and whjile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > i think i can do that it will demolish my substrate.. you know..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    take me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to find out work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    arounds. If I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > use the standard method of water changing even with using buckets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to refill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank, I would have been in hospital for back problems. 25% of 1 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank needs 11 buckets of water. If you have a place to keep a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    butt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > somewhere, it will be worth the effort and the money spent. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    usually do this while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon and the most tiresome
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    job is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > siphon the water out along with the floating debris at the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (dead leaves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and fish poo etc.). refilling it is the easiest part ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5939 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cool thanks yes i do do that hot and then cold... they fish never seem bothered by all this crap i am diong to them lol... andi get pretty stressed out i dont know if you all member about 4 months ago when i shattered the heater in my tank while leaving it own and having no water around it.. i was a mess... shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is controversial with some people, but have you tried using some water from the cold side, and some water from the hot side, to get the water you pour in at close to the same temperature as the tank?  Also, there are 3 gallon buckets at w-mart that are about $2. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5940 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but i have no way of heating up the water other than to use the dang hot water button lol... hrm.. mabye i need a goose neck.. shanon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I installed one of those goose neck focets on the kitchen sink so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can put a 5 gallon bucket in the sink.  then i use a floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thermometer to get the temp right.  water changes for my 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    take 20-30 min. depending on how many snails i pick out LOL if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pour the water in too fast the stones will move arund but not too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5941 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here's one of the benefits of hating double faucets.  I bought 2  faucets. One a single-lever, the other a piston-on, turn to adjust. It's MUCH easier to adjust temperature with a single lever for aquariums. I also bought those dark, stick-on, flexible liquid-crystal thermometers, removed the adhesive,  took the tank temperature, then held the thermometer under the running water 'till the temperature was appropriate, while filling my five, 2 1/2 gallon, used for nothing but fish, buckets, two and a half times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is controversial with some people, but have you tried using some water from the cold side, and some water from the hot side, to get the water you pour in at close to the same temperature as the tank? Also, there are 3 gallon buckets at w-mart that are about $2.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dang i have to figure soemthign else out.. takes me including cleaning on the tank about 4 hours atleast to do my 20 gallon... i just ifll up pitchers from the filter water at what temp it comes out and gently dump it in there.. im thinking or have been doing more frequent water dhanges so that doing the major 50 percent istn such a big ordeal... shannon






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5942 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a single-lever faucet, and, in a clean sink, run the water over a flexible liquid-crystal thermometer, into 2 1/2 gallon buckets. I had a pre-filter (it hung on the rear of the tank, and when operated, was a splillway for a full tank-water-level.) for my spray-bar, sump apparatus, and I poured the water into IT (what also helped in that situation was a breeding cage, placed over the pre-filter, made of four sticks, placed into two rectangles, over which was placed a nylon net, which further mitigated the impact of falling water. Incidentally, the net was a solution to avoid fry or any fish, spilling or jumping into the pre-filter.). That eliminated the heavy weight of the falling water column. The water would spill over the sides. It was about 4 inches by five inches, with a depth of about five inches. Some icthyologist suggested using a plate. Place the plate on the gravel, and pour the water over the plate. I also had a large cave made of rock, for my Corydoras'. The top, (set on two other rocks, had an area of about 88 square inches, and I poured water over THAT when doing water-changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so you dump the bucket into the tank.. where are you filling the buckets in your bathtub... im thinking i should well i have been tryign to find a better way.. :mabyer if i let one bucket sit out or 1 and 1/2 put the conditioner in it bu tthe only way i can get it into my tank would be lifting it.. and whjile i think i can do that it will demolish my substrate.. you know.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it used to take me longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to find out work arounds. If I use the standard method of water changing even with using buckets to refill the tank, I would have been in hospital for back problems. 25% of 1 of my large tank needs 11 buckets of water. If you have a place to keep a water butt somewhere, it will be worth the effort and the money spent. I usually do this while watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon and the most tiresome job is to siphon the water out along with the floating debris at the bottom (dead leaves and fish poo etc.). refilling it is the easiest part ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim







                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5943 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Keep in mind that I'm a total newbie, but it did work great when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    filling the aquarium for the first time to have a large bowl on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bottom of the tank (a plate would have been good, too). By pouring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the water into the bowl, none of the Flourite was disturbed. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    worked beautifully.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I might mention that I keep several gallon containers filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and "aging" in my laundry room, ready for the next water change. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    make note of the date the water was put in the container, so I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    when it's ready. I also add a little Stress Coat to it, then pour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    into the newly siphoned aquarium. I've been doing weekly 30% water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    changes. The containers are the same temp as the aquariums, as all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are in my house w/ the same heat/air.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cheers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a single-lever faucet, and, in a clean sink, run the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    over a flexible liquid-crystal thermometer, into 2 1/2 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    buckets. I had a pre-filter (it hung on the rear of the tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    when operated, was a splillway for a full tank-water-level.) for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spray-bar, sump apparatus, and I poured the water into IT (what also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    helped in that situation was a breeding cage, placed over the pre-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    filter, made of four sticks, placed into two rectangles, over which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was placed a nylon net, which further mitigated the impact of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    falling water. Incidentally, the net was a solution to avoid fry or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any fish, spilling or jumping into the pre-filter.). That eliminated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the heavy weight of the falling water column. The water would spill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    over the sides. It was about 4 inches by five inches, with a depth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of about five inches. Some icthyologist suggested using a plate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Place the plate on the gravel, and pour the water over the plate. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    also had a large cave made of rock, for my Corydoras'. The top, (set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on two other rocks, had an area of about 88 square inches, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    poured water over THAT when doing water-changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > so you dump the bucket into the tank.. where are you filling the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    buckets in your bathtub... im thinking i should well i have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tryign to find a better way.. :mabyer if i let one bucket sit out or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1 and 1/2 put the conditioner in it bu tthe only way i can get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    into my tank would be lifting it.. and whjile i think i can do that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it will demolish my substrate.. you know.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    take me longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to find out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    work arounds. If I use the standard method of water changing even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with using buckets to refill the tank, I would have been in hospital
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for back problems. 25% of 1 of my large tank needs 11 buckets of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water. If you have a place to keep a water butt somewhere, it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be worth the effort and the money spent. I usually do this while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon and the most tiresome
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    job is to siphon the water out along with the floating debris at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bottom (dead leaves and fish poo etc.). refilling it is the easiest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    part ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 5944 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: treating ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have never gone much past 83°, but you can go higher as was mentioned somewhere else, just not with goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 10/07/04 12:08:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] treating ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How high should I raise the tank temp to treat ich? I realize it must be done slowly, and I've increased aeration to compensate for the lower oxygen content in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5945 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: treating ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      83 is what is printed on most treatmenst that call for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      increased temp. some fish begin to die after that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      temp, but many are ok. just make sure to look up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      species to make sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have never gone much past 83�, but you can go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > higher as was mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > somewhere else, just not with goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: 10/07/04 12:08:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aquaria-freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] treating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > How high should I raise the tank temp to treat ich?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I realize it must be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > done slowly, and I've increased aeration to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > compensate for the lower oxygen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > content in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Theresa




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5946 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      one note of caution! if you have copper pipes in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      house, the hot water will have a higher level of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dissolved copper, which will kill scaleless fish, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anything without a backbone including; snails, shrimp,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      crabs, crawdads, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Here's one of the benefits of hating double faucets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I bought 2 faucets. One a single-lever, the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a piston-on, turn to adjust. It's MUCH easier to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > adjust temperature with a single lever for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > aquariums. I also bought those dark, stick-on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > flexible liquid-crystal thermometers, removed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > adhesive, took the tank temperature, then held the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thermometer under the running water 'till the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > temperature was appropriate, while filling my five,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 2 1/2 gallon, used for nothing but fish, buckets,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > two and a half times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > This is controversial with some people, but have you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tried using some water from the cold side, and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water from the hot side, to get the water you pour
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in at close to the same temperature as the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Also, there are 3 gallon buckets at w-mart that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > about $2.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dang i have to figure soemthign else out.. takes me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > including cleaning on the tank about 4 hours atleast
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to do my 20 gallon... i just ifll up pitchers from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the filter water at what temp it comes out and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gently dump it in there.. im thinking or have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > doing more frequent water dhanges so that doing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > major 50 percent istn such a big ordeal... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5947 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you can also buy a cheap hang on heater and use it for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      heating water over night to use the next day. works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      great on a 5 gallon bucket, and they are as cheap as 8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but i have no way of heating up the water other than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to use the dang hot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water button lol... hrm.. mabye i need a goose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > neck.. shanon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I installed one of those goose neck focets on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > kitchen sink so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can put a 5 gallon bucket in the sink. then i use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thermometer to get the temp right. water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for my 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > take 20-30 min. depending on how many snails i pick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > out LOL if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pour the water in too fast the stones will move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > arund but not too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5948 From: Captain Kidd Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't believe all the stuff on water changes. I have four 7 gallon jugs that I keep treated and ready to go.  I also have some 1 gallon water bottles that are ready to go.  In all I have 35 gallons of treated water ready at the drop of a hat.  When I do my changes (about 20% a week) it takes me much longer to suck the water out of the tank than to fill it.  I fill it with the 1 gallon bottles and let the water splash on my hand and then fall into the tank.  I changed about 25 gallons a week and use about another 5 or so for top off and I can do the Saturday water change in 3 tanks in about 90 Minuets, then I'd guess about another 15 minutes to re fill the jugs.  I rotate the jugs so the oldest water get used first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For a 29 gallon tank (I think that is what you said) you'd be changing somewhere between 6 and 10 gallons a week and I'd think you could get one 7 gallon jug and maybe 7 one gallon jugs and be able to kick that out in about 30 minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] adding question about water changes ...R...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so you dump the bucket into the tank.. where are you filling the buckets in your bathtub... im thinking i should well i have been tryign to find a better way.. :mabyer if i let  one bucket sit out or 1 and 1/2 put the conditioner in it bu tthe only way i can get it into my tank would be lifting it.. and whjile i think i can do that it will demolish  my substrate.. you know.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it used to take me longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to find out work arounds. If I use the standard method of water changing even with using buckets to refill the tank, I would have been in hospital for back problems. 25% of 1 of my large tank needs 11 buckets of water. If you have a place to keep a water butt somewhere, it will be worth the effort and the money spent. I usually do this while watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon and the most tiresome job is to siphon the water out along with the floating debris at the bottom (dead leaves and fish poo etc.). refilling it is the easiest part ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5949 From: Erin Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to go up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5950 From: sandpiperplantation Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Call your municipal Department of Water & Sanitation and find out if there has been any change in the water quality in your neighborhood. If you live downwind or close to a water treatment plant or some local spill it will effect the quality of your neighborhood water (increased e-coliform or phosphorus count, etc etc). Not enough to hurt you but perhaps enough to hurt your fishies. You may have to draw your water from another area of the city.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you have older plumbing in your home, your water may have experienced a spike in it's copper content, or minute increases in bacteria and fecal count. This can also happen suddenly. I'm just guessing, but you've already moved heaven and earth, and it seems that the tap water itself may be the problem. Good luck, you're a very dedicated Momma.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Denise


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "Erin" <utacutie@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 03:21:07 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to go up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5951 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: adding question about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is pretty much what I do, too, Robb...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But it occured to me after I posted that info that I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      heated aquariums, so the water in my gallon containers is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as what's in the betta tanks (no lights involved), and probably just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a tad cooler than what's going in my lighted aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Captain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Kidd" <captainkidd@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I can't believe all the stuff on water changes. I have four 7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gallon jugs that I keep treated and ready to go. I also have some 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gallon water bottles that are ready to go. In all I have 35 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of treated water ready at the drop of a hat. When I do my changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (about 20% a week) it takes me much longer to suck the water out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the tank than to fill it. I fill it with the 1 gallon bottles and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      let the water splash on my hand and then fall into the tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      changed about 25 gallons a week and use about another 5 or so for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      top off and I can do the Saturday water change in 3 tanks in about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      90 Minuets, then I'd guess about another 15 minutes to re fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      jugs. I rotate the jugs so the oldest water get used first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > For a 29 gallon tank (I think that is what you said) you'd be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      changing somewhere between 6 and 10 gallons a week and I'd think you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      could get one 7 gallon jug and maybe 7 one gallon jugs and be able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to kick that out in about 30 minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: agentscullyeyore@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] adding question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about water changes ...R...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so you dump the bucket into the tank.. where are you filling the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      buckets in your bathtub... im thinking i should well i have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tryign to find a better way.. :mabyer if i let one bucket sit out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      or 1 and 1/2 put the conditioner in it bu tthe only way i can get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      into my tank would be lifting it.. and whjile i think i can do that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it will demolish my substrate.. you know.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Shannon? 1 tank? 4 hrs? I know when I had my first tank it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      used to take me longer :P but with time and expansion I managed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      find out work arounds. If I use the standard method of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      changing even with using buckets to refill the tank, I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      been in hospital for back problems. 25% of 1 of my large tank needs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      11 buckets of water. If you have a place to keep a water butt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      somewhere, it will be worth the effort and the money spent. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      usually do this while watching a movie etc. on a Sunday afternoon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and the most tiresome job is to siphon the water out along with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      floating debris at the bottom (dead leaves and fish poo etc.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      refilling it is the easiest part ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5952 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, Erin...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I know exactly how you feel. It's a really helpless, frustrating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thing. I get very, very attached to all my animals, too. It hurts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to lose ANY of them. After all, they are in our care and totally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dependent on us. You are doing everything you can, so don't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      blaming yourself. When I first started keeping bettas I used only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bottled Spring Water. That could be an option for you until you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      get your water situation under control. The only "con" to that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      might be the cost factor. Needless to say, I'm not an expert...but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      please know that my heart is with you, and I wish you all the best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't give up...!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5953 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How often did you change your water? Another thing. If you recently brought fish home, a one or two-day guarantee is'nt nearly enough, considering some, or all/most professionals keep new fish in quarantine for a REALLY long time, before introducing into the permanent home. What you're experiencing may be what would have happened if you kept the fish in quarantine. Were the tanks in the LFS in good condition?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi, Erin...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I know exactly how you feel. It's a really helpless, frustrating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thing. I get very, very attached to all my animals, too. It hurts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to lose ANY of them. After all, they are in our care and totally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dependent on us. You are doing everything you can, so don't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > blaming yourself. When I first started keeping bettas I used only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bottled Spring Water. That could be an option for you until you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > get your water situation under control. The only "con" to that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > might be the cost factor. Needless to say, I'm not an expert...but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > please know that my heart is with you, and I wish you all the best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don't give up...!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5954 From: Erin Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, I did change every other day when the nitrites were high, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then I planned on changing once a week. I bought my fish at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      private shop and the tanks were very clean, no dead fish, etc. Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they did have some sort of parasite when I got them that layed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dormant for awhile, I have had the new fish about one month. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a 10g tank in my closet that is not in use, but I am definitely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      considering setting it up as a quarantine tank. Also, the gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that I have isn't doing so good at all either. It was thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      around, going crazy, swimming in all directions, so I filled my fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bucket with treated water and she has seemed to calm down, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doubt she will make it through the night. Thus, I am left with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      barb that I really doubt will make it through tomorrow, so the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will be empty..then what? I know I just can't add more fish but I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so lost!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > How often did you change your water? Another thing. If you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      recently brought fish home, a one or two-day guarantee is'nt nearly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      enough, considering some, or all/most professionals keep new fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      quarantine for a REALLY long time, before introducing into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      permanent home. What you're experiencing may be what would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      happened if you kept the fish in quarantine. Were the tanks in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      LFS in good condition?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi, Erin...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I know exactly how you feel. It's a really helpless, frustrating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > thing. I get very, very attached to all my animals, too. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hurts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > to lose ANY of them. After all, they are in our care and totally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > dependent on us. You are doing everything you can, so don't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > blaming yourself. When I first started keeping bettas I used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > bottled Spring Water. That could be an option for you until you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > get your water situation under control. The only "con" to that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > might be the cost factor. Needless to say, I'm not an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      expert...but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > please know that my heart is with you, and I wish you all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Don't give up...!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5955 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it is more likely than not, that they are just plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and simple fighting. barbs are semi aggressive, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      one can empty a tank if he feels like it, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      poccasionally a gourami can as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > decided to euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > out driving because I feel horrible and come back,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and another fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water change, raised the temp a little, added stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is set to go up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5956 From: Cathey Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Favorite Canister Filter?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Okay, I was going to purchase an Eheim for my frog tank, but after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      reading online reviews just now I am rethinking this decision.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The reviews for the type of filter I currently have were all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      positive (Rena Filstar); but at Least half of the Eheim reviews were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      negative--these were some of the claims:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "The bottom line is, it's made poorly and extremely frustrating when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cleaning and reassembling. The latches on the side are useless, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      keep popping open when the siphon starts and water pours out from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any opening. The flow rate is also not impressive, It's been running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for about 2 years and by now the water is trickling out. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      manipulated the media and moved it around to fix this problem to no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      avail. There are better canister filters at a better price on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      market, I don't believe the hype on these."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "I think that the chemical filtration capabilites of this filter are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      excellent, as mentioned in another review. The water must circulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      through the media prior to returning to the tank. It's capabilities
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for mechanical filtration are poor. Though it can weed out every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thing it sucks in, if you have it on a 55 gallon tank, you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      even turning over your water once an hour which is far less than you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      need. Canister filters do almost zero biological filtration. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      perhaps the most important of the filtration needs of your fish."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Can anyone give me some advice here?? I want to know what would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the best option for my frogs!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ~Cathey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5957 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Favorite Canister Filter?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      personally i like eth fluval cannisters. they range
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in size from the 104 to the 404, and can handle tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      between 20 and 100 gallons. the flow can be altered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      by lengthening or shortening the tubes. they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      simple to use and extremely versatile. the new design
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      on them is easy to clean, repair, change media (3-5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      baskets), an dthey have stop valves for drip free
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      removal and replacement during cleaning. they also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a primer to aid in the flow starting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the 104 goes for $50-60
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Cathey <catheylove@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Okay, I was going to purchase an Eheim for my frog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, but after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > reading online reviews just now I am rethinking this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > decision.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The reviews for the type of filter I currently have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > were all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > positive (Rena Filstar); but at Least half of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Eheim reviews were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > negative--these were some of the claims:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "The bottom line is, it's made poorly and extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > frustrating when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cleaning and reassembling. The latches on the side
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are useless, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > keep popping open when the siphon starts and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pours out from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > any opening. The flow rate is also not impressive,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > It's been running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for about 2 years and by now the water is trickling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > out. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > manipulated the media and moved it around to fix
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this problem to no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > avail. There are better canister filters at a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > price on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > market, I don't believe the hype on these."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "I think that the chemical filtration capabilites of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this filter are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > excellent, as mentioned in another review. The water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > must circulate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > through the media prior to returning to the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > It's capabilities
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for mechanical filtration are poor. Though it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > weed out every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thing it sucks in, if you have it on a 55 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > even turning over your water once an hour which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > far less than you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > need. Canister filters do almost zero biological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filtration. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > perhaps the most important of the filtration needs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of your fish."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Can anyone give me some advice here?? I want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > know what would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the best option for my frogs!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ~Cathey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5958 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      no that is right you need to find out what issues your tank or the water has... before getting more... is your testing kid old.. i think one lady had a catanimated kit.. who knows.. i feel so bad for you.. cause i so know what your going through.. shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, I did change every other day when the nitrites were high, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then I planned on changing once a week. I bought my fish at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      private shop and the tanks were very clean, no dead fish, etc. Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they did have some sort of parasite when I got them that layed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      dormant for awhile, I have had the new fish about one month. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have a 10g tank in my closet that is not in use, but I am definitely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      considering setting it up as a quarantine tank. Also, the gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that I have isn't doing so good at all either. It was thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      around, going crazy, swimming in all directions, so I filled my fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bucket with treated water and she has seemed to calm down, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doubt she will make it through the night. Thus, I am left with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      barb that I really doubt will make it through tomorrow, so the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will be empty..then what? I know I just can't add more fish but I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so lost!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5959 From: Pat K. Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: some advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am brand new to aquariums. I am having a 90 gallon acrylic tank made. I am doing lots of reading to learn what I can before I get this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would love to be able to put pebbles or rocks into it rather than gravel. Does anyone know if this is safe to do without affecting the water? If so, what types are good for freshwater?....and where do I get them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks so much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Pat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5960 From: paul helms Date: 10/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: some advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the rocks are fine if you are not using a ugf, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      make sure that they are not going to affect your ph

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Pat K." <patsan@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am brand new to aquariums. I am having a 90 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > acrylic tank made. I am doing lots of reading to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > learn what I can before I get this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I would love to be able to put pebbles or rocks into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it rather than gravel. Does anyone know if this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > safe to do without affecting the water? If so, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > types are good for freshwater?....and where do I get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks so much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Pat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5961 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But, was'nt there an appearance of brown water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it is more likely than not, that they are just plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and simple fighting. barbs are semi aggressive, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > one can empty a tank if he feels like it, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > poccasionally a gourami can as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- Erin wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > decided to euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > out driving because I feel horrible and come back,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and another fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > water change, raised the temp a little, added stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is set to go up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5962 From: bryants4god Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Favorite Canister Filter?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several Magnum 350's and they are wonderful.  I also have a penn-plax cascade that my husband picked out and it is also doing a wonderful job, I have it on an 80 gal turtle tank.  My favorite part of that filter is the long spray bar attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Magnum's have excellent reviews.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Cathey [mailto:catheylove@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 11:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Favorite Canister Filter?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Okay, I was going to purchase an Eheim for my frog tank, but after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      reading online reviews just now I am rethinking this decision.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5963 From: straubtyler Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      talk to your neibors that have tanks. see if they are having similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      troubles. If there fish are ok there probly is nothing wrong with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your water. if they are having trouble maby something is going on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      if the town is flushing fire hydrents or something you coud be geting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      all kinds of junk in your water. Also ask at your local fish store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they should know if alot of fish in the area are dieing most fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      stores sell water for about 25 cents a gallon. its a little pricey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for the first fill but water changes should be relitavly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      inexpencive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > no that is right you need to find out what issues your tank or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has... before getting more... is your testing kid old.. i think one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lady had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > catanimated kit.. who knows.. i feel so bad for you.. cause i so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > going through.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, I did change every other day when the nitrites were high, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then I planned on changing once a week. I bought my fish at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > private shop and the tanks were very clean, no dead fish, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they did have some sort of parasite when I got them that layed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dormant for awhile, I have had the new fish about one month. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a 10g tank in my closet that is not in use, but I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      definitely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > considering setting it up as a quarantine tank. Also, the gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I have isn't doing so good at all either. It was thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > around, going crazy, swimming in all directions, so I filled my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bucket with treated water and she has seemed to calm down, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > doubt she will make it through the night. Thus, I am left with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > barb that I really doubt will make it through tomorrow, so the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will be empty..then what? I know I just can't add more fish but I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so lost!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5964 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, which has been reliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for me, it's not old. I guess it doesn't matter anyways, when I woke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      up this morning the other 2 were gone. My water is slightly brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looking, even after the 50% water change yesterday. I will look into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doing the water changes from bottled water and check to see if my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      LFS has any available for a reasonable price for the future. I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      also going to call the water supply company here and check on that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      just to see if that is what happened. I would ask my neighbors in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the apartment complex, but I don't think anyone else keeps fish. Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the question is..what to do with an empty tank? :( I feel very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      discouraged...thanks again for all of your help and support, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      means so much to me,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > no that is right you need to find out what issues your tank or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has... before getting more... is your testing kid old.. i think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      one lady had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > catanimated kit.. who knows.. i feel so bad for you.. cause i so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      know what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > going through.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, I did change every other day when the nitrites were high,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then I planned on changing once a week. I bought my fish at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > private shop and the tanks were very clean, no dead fish, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they did have some sort of parasite when I got them that layed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dormant for awhile, I have had the new fish about one month. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have a 10g tank in my closet that is not in use, but I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      definitely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > considering setting it up as a quarantine tank. Also, the gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I have isn't doing so good at all either. It was thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > around, going crazy, swimming in all directions, so I filled my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bucket with treated water and she has seemed to calm down, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > doubt she will make it through the night. Thus, I am left with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > barb that I really doubt will make it through tomorrow, so the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will be empty..then what? I know I just can't add more fish but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so lost!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5965 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Very sorry to hear about your loss but manytimes things are not in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your hands. I can only console you by the fact that I have once (just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a year ago) lost an entire fleet of a species (16 fish in all)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      overnight and the reason is still unknown. Other fish in the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank were perfectly healthy and are still living. It was just this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      one specific species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Before you go about putting any more fish in this tank, do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      research as to why it happened. Can you give an idea as to what all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      objects are in the tank? What is the substrate? Brown colored water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is not encouraging at all and it is possible that something in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank must have leeched something that probably had this effect. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you use activated carbon in the filter as well? If not, this would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a good time to start thinking in these terms especially after this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      loss. I am not a great fan of the concept of buying water from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      LFS but it may be the only option for the moment but also it may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be of any good if something is wrong with the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Is your other tank in which you were doing a fishless cycle ready? or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      was it someone else? Sorry if I got confused.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5966 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was reading all these posts... Am I alone in my use of the Python No Spill & Fill???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I love mine, but of course I only use it on my larger tanks. But for those, I don't age the water at all. But my fish haven't shown any problems (knock on wood), in fact they seem happier duting and after water changes every week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 5967 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin, don't give up.  After all the work you've done so far, you should keep trying.  Let's try to figure it out.  You mentioned that the water had become murky and brown, didn't you?  Did that go away or is it the same?  I suspect fighting might have been some of the problem, you might not have even seen it, but I don't think this would happen with just fighting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It is possible that there is something in the tap water that is causing the problems.  Water is about 60 cents/gallon at w-mart, but check fish stores for cheaper water first if you decide to buy water.  Another choice might be to invest in an R/O unit.  That would be more expensive now, but probably cheaper over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Back to the murky water, have you got any driftwood in the tank?  That could cause murky water, and it could have something in it that would kill the fish.  Are there any kids under 13 around that could have "accidentally" poured something in there?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think you will get this figured out and everything will be fine.  If the two you have left are doing ok, see if the fish store will take them for you.  Sometimes stores get in fish that will live a month or two and then die.  I have had it happen several times until I realized all the fish dying were from one store, so I quit shopping for fish there (I still get good deals on shirts and frozen food, though:).  I wouldn't suggest trying barbs again, it might bring back bad memories.  I suggest something more peaceful, like tetras.  But then I always suggest tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't know why I haven't seen it before.  You have a gourami in there and one barb.  I thought it was 2 barbs.  That gourami is now suspect number one.  Gouramis, while claiming to be peaceful to semi-aggressive, are in fact dangerous fish killing attack fish!  Most people don't see this in their tanks, but under the right conditions they will go crazy on you.  Over night they can reduce a fish of the same size to a baby in the corner of the tank.  There is no telling what they could do to a barb.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to go up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5968 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The week I bought my python system and used it for the first time, I lost my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fleet of Tanganyikan cichlids mysteriously from a 100 gallon tank that very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        night. Next day by the evening, the python was in the bin. The reason is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still unknown as there was no ammonia/nitrite spike. Water temperature was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also stable. Maybe there had been a PH crash overnight for some reason or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the chlorine that got in the water by python had already done the damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which the already present water conditioner/dechlorinator could not prevent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Other fish like the barbs and danios and rainbow fish, even synodontis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        catfish and other cichlids were perfectly happy and well. I did also lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some shrimps and snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Never again I will use Python just for the sheer way it works (Add water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        conditioner/dechlorinator in the main tank and fill it with tap water)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: crickit99@... [mailto:crickit99@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 08 October 2004 15:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was reading all these posts... Am I alone in my use of the Python No
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Spill & Fill???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I love mine, but of course I only use it on my larger tanks. But for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >those, I don't age the water at all. But my fish haven't shown any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >problems (knock on wood), in fact they seem happier duting and after water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >changes every week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christina
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5969 From: audralee Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I lurk every day and add bits here and there, but I have to reply to Nims comment about the Python. I used to carry pails of water every time I changed my 5 tanks. With the Python, I Save much time and pain in my back. I have made a few modifications, though. I removed all the valves except for the cutoff. I put the end out my door into the yard and siphon the water and vacuum about 1/2 the gravel in one tank, cut the flow off and do the others the same way. When the water is at the level I want it (about 30 percent gone) I fill a 30 gal tote with tap water and add conditioners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Since I live in FL, the cold water is never really cold, about 75 degrees. I attach a small pond pump to the end of the hose and pump the fresh water from the tote to the tanks. When the tote is empty, I unplug the pump and refill the tote again, add conditioners and fill more tanks. I've been doing this for years and I never have problems. My fish are happy and healthy. I save time, my back is pain free and my floor is dry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The week I bought my python system and used it for the first time, I lost my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fleet of Tanganyikan cichlids mysteriously from a 100 gallon tank that very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        night. Next day by the evening, the python was in the bin. The reason is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still unknown as there was no ammonia/nitrite spike. Water temperature was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also stable. Maybe there had been a PH crash overnight for some reason or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the chlorine that got in the water by python had already done the damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which the already present water conditioner/dechlorinator could not prevent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Other fish like the barbs and danios and rainbow fish, even synodontis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        catfish and other cichlids were perfectly happy and well. I did also lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some shrimps and snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Never again I will use Python just for the sheer way it works (Add water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        conditioner/dechlorinator in the main tank and fill it with tap water)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: crickit99@... [mailto:crickit99@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 08 October 2004 15:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was reading all these posts... Am I alone in my use of the Python No
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Spill & Fill???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I love mine, but of course I only use it on my larger tanks.  But for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >those, I don't age the water at all.  But my fish haven't shown any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >problems (knock on wood), in fact they seem happier duting and after water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >changes every week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5970 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jo,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I dont deny the benefits of Python in any way. I myself have a total
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of 6-8 tanks and 2 are 100+ gallons. If pythin can be most useful to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some one, it is people like me who can break their backs doing water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes. But there also exists this risk which I am mentioning that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        since water is comming directly from tap into the tank, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little control on what is comming thru it. Worse if the local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        authority just treated the water for chlorine and other things just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in the morning and we are doing a water change the same evening. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        system I use is very much similar to python but a little extra work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is put in to age the water in a water butt which does get rid of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gasses etc. stored in the water due to heavy pressure compression etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "audralee"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <audralee@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I lurk every day and add bits here and there, but I have to reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to Nims comment about the Python. I used to carry pails of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        every time I changed my 5 tanks. With the Python, I Save much time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and pain in my back. I have made a few modifications, though. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        removed all the valves except for the cutoff. I put the end out my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        door into the yard and siphon the water and vacuum about 1/2 the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel in one tank, cut the flow off and do the others the same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When the water is at the level I want it (about 30 percent gone) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fill a 30 gal tote with tap water and add conditioners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Since I live in FL, the cold water is never really cold, about 75
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        degrees. I attach a small pond pump to the end of the hose and pump
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the fresh water from the tote to the tanks. When the tote is empty, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unplug the pump and refill the tote again, add conditioners and fill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more tanks. I've been doing this for years and I never have problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My fish are happy and healthy. I save time, my back is pain free and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my floor is dry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Jo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Nimish Mathur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christina,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The week I bought my python system and used it for the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time, I lost my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fleet of Tanganyikan cichlids mysteriously from a 100 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > night. Next day by the evening, the python was in the bin. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reason is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still unknown as there was no ammonia/nitrite spike. Water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        temperature was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > also stable. Maybe there had been a PH crash overnight for some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reason or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the chlorine that got in the water by python had already done the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which the already present water conditioner/dechlorinator could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not prevent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Other fish like the barbs and danios and rainbow fish, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        synodontis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > catfish and other cichlids were perfectly happy and well. I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some shrimps and snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Never again I will use Python just for the sheer way it works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Add water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > conditioner/dechlorinator in the main tank and fill it with tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >From: crickit99@a... [mailto:crickit99@a...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Sent: 08 October 2004 15:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I was reading all these posts... Am I alone in my use of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Python No
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Spill & Fill???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I love mine, but of course I only use it on my larger tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >those, I don't age the water at all. But my fish haven't shown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >problems (knock on wood), in fact they seem happier duting and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >changes every week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Christina
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5971 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something..I turned on the light this morning and the water didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!! I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go take a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin, don't give up. After all the work you've done so far,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keep trying. Let's try to figure it out. You mentioned that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > become murky and brown, didn't you? Did that go away or is it the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        same? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suspect fighting might have been some of the problem, you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > even seen it, but I don't think this would happen with just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fighting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It is possible that there is something in the tap water that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is causing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the problems. Water is about 60 cents/gallon at w-mart, but check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stores for cheaper water first if you decide to buy water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another choice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > might be to invest in an R/O unit. That would be more expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > probably cheaper over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Back to the murky water, have you got any driftwood in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank? That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could cause murky water, and it could have something in it that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish. Are there any kids under 13 around that could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have "accidentally"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > poured something in there?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think you will get this figured out and everything will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fine. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the two you have left are doing ok, see if the fish store will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        take them for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you. Sometimes stores get in fish that will live a month or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > die. I have had it happen several times until I realized all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish dying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were from one store, so I quit shopping for fish there (I still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > deals on shirts and frozen food, though:). I wouldn't suggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        trying barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > again, it might bring back bad memories. I suggest something more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like tetras. But then I always suggest tetras...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't know why I haven't seen it before. You have a gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and one barb. I thought it was 2 barbs. That gourami is now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suspect number
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one. Gouramis, while claiming to be peaceful to semi-aggressive,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fact dangerous fish killing attack fish! Most people don't see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their tanks, but under the right conditions they will go crazy on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you. Over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > night they can reduce a fish of the same size to a baby in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        corner of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. There is no telling what they could do to a barb.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, one of my fish was really suffering so I decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        euthanize
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > him with an alcohol solution (vodka and water). It made me feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really bad but I just couldn't stand to see him suffer..well, I go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out driving because I feel horrible and come back, and another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is floating that was ok before I left. I have 2 fish left, 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ago, I had 7 fish. I'm really torn right now. I have done a 50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water change, raised the temp a little, added stress coat, ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is at 0, nitrite 0, pH 7.6 and nitrate 20, and temp is set to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to 80. I just don't understand what is going wrong. Should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > donate the other 2 fish or what? Please help :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin-29gallon: one barb, one gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5972 From: Julie Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi all.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas.  Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they are in my house (carpet and such).  I am wanting to run a bug bomb asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have.  They are a 30, 20 and a 10.  How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the tank?  Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5973 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank" let me know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what you think should be done. Thanks!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5974 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The tanl looks really fine with a possibility of a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which is not harmful to fish in any way. This cloudyness however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could be due to any chemicals as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Something poisonous exist in the tank/water that killed the fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the best procedure forward will be to restart all over again from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and filter along with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100% water change and keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it matured. wait for a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and add in some hardy fish like rasboras, barbs, tetras etc. (I find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the most peaceful and perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community fish). Many tetras can be more vicious then tiger barbs so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be careful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Second possibility is that the fish were already sick when you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them and hence perished. This means that the disease will still be in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank and the above method will still work. You could however wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile to keep it cycled and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any fish based pathogens will die unless they are something that form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long. All depends what the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously rid these but will also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh cycle again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by anychance use ammonia to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycle this tank? I asked you this question before as well but guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you missed it. You also have another tank thats running that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank. Please clarify this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank" let me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5975 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Julie,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Most if the aeromatic chemicals released by these smoke bombs etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are water phillic. Hence having the tanks is not a good idea and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better to remove the tanks or think about something else. (Ultrasonic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        repellents etc.). I suffer from archnophobia so have been doing some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reading on possibilities and ultrasonics is the best I have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        across that does not effect fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Julie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <jaramey@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fleas. Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        afraid they are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bug bomb asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have. They are a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doen't get into the tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5976 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi, Julie...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm a professional petsitter, and although I'm just now learning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about fishies (I'm on this forum for my own information/education,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        too!!), I do know dog stuff. Rather than use bombs in the house,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you could easily do flea traps. Although they are sold in pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stores, it's easy to make your own. All you need is a container for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water (cake pans, tupperware, etc) and a light source. Put water in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the container (I like to put a little dish soap such as Dawn in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water, but it's not vital). Position the light (a lamp or a hanging
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bulb works) above the water...be SURE it's secure so that it won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fall over into the water!! At night, turn on the light and make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure all other indoor lights are off. The fleas are attracted to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the light and will jump towards it and fall into the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        drown. It DOES work! I accidently discovered I had fleas in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        house many moons ago, when I had a light source above one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dog's water bowls. Imagine my surprise the next morning when there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were several dead fleas in the water. Corning ware works GREAT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because it's white, and you can see the fleas more easily. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could also dust any carpets or rugs with a good flea powder. Be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure the dogs don't have access to the trap, as they can easily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        knock the light over, or drink soapy water. Frontline (applied on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dog that hasn't had a really recent bath) works FANTASTIC on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dogs, and it's worth every penny. It will take care of both fleas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and ticks, and is far safer than most. I swear by it!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BEST OF LUCK!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Julie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <jaramey@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fleas. Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        afraid they are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a bug bomb asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have. They are a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doen't get into the tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5977 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility of a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This cloudyness however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water that killed the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the best procedure forward will be to restart all over again from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and filter along with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100% water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it matured. wait for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras, barbs, tetras etc. (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > community fish). Many tetras can be more vicious then tiger barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Second possibility is that the fish were already sick when you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them and hence perished. This means that the disease will still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank and the above method will still work. You could however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile to keep it cycled and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any fish based pathogens will die unless they are something that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long. All depends what the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously rid these but will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by anychance use ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycle this tank? I asked you this question before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you missed it. You also have another tank thats running that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank. Please clarify this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank" let me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5978 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you cleaned the filter too well then the bacterial bloom can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well explained. If the fish went thru a complete cycle then their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        terrible health conditions and various diseases can be explained and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably why the fish perished. It would be a good idea to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waterchange and wait for a week or 2 while feeding the filter with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fishfood (and a bit of stress zyme) should work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you give a brief timeline as to when you put the fish in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5979 From: shortlid Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Do I need new scavengers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I always though Cory's were pretty hardy? But when I bough three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cory's three weeks ago one 2" one and two smaller 1" ones. One of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        teh smaller ones died about five hours after I put him in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water was perfect then. Now after I accidentaly sucked the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        smaller one in a gravel vacume but I got him out before two second he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        got tramitized and dies a few hours later. No visable wounds on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        him. Will the 2" Cory be OK by himself, can he keep a 30 gal. clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the help of a 2" Pleco?? Would Ghost Shrimp help me keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clean??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 5980 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am sorry this isn't going well for you.  Change as much water as you can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and re-fill the tank with fresh, treated water.  Just throw a little food in there and that will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new fish.  You might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a third one close by.  I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to add trace elements back into it.  I am starting to lean toward the probability that it was bad stock from the store.  It will work out.  A lot of people, including me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try.  It takes a little learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          something..I turned on the light this morning and the water didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!! I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go take a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 5981 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Erin, didn't you say you still had the same carbon in the tank that came with the filter?  It is possible that the carbon had taken in all the junk over time.  Some people say carbon releases all that back out after it has been in the tank too long (over a month).  I have never come to a conclusion if that is true or not, but it is possible that some carbon does release all the junk under certain conditions.  It could be the cleaning you did caused the carbon to lose its charge and release it into the tank.  This is stuff other than ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, stuff that you don't usually test for.  That could have done it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I suggest taking that carbon out of the filter.  You can cut a slit in the top of the cartridge in the floss part and shake the carbon out.  The cartridge is still ok, and you can buy more carbon to put into it for a few weeks at a time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 10/08/04 12:56:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you cleaned the filter too well then the bacterial bloom can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            well explained. If the fish went thru a complete cycle then their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            terrible health conditions and various diseases can be explained and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            probably why the fish perished. It would be a good idea to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            waterchange and wait for a week or 2 while feeding the filter with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fishfood (and a bit of stress zyme) should work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can you give a brief timeline as to when you put the fish in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5982 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Got tank in early August, added one fish (the barb), tank cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            using fritz turbo, about one month later got another 5 green barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and one gourami, tank re-cycled due to adding fish all at once, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            month after adding new fish ammonia and nitrites were at 0, the next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            day I cleaned out the filter because it was really dirty and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            next day after that 2 fish had died.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If you cleaned the filter too well then the bacterial bloom can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > well explained. If the fish went thru a complete cycle then their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > terrible health conditions and various diseases can be explained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > probably why the fish perished. It would be a good idea to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > waterchange and wait for a week or 2 while feeding the filter with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fishfood (and a bit of stress zyme) should work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Can you give a brief timeline as to when you put the fish in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5983 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So these five fish from the store, if they were infected, could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            infected the other barb and gourami? What types of parasites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            contagious in fish tanks?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am sorry this isn't going well for you. Change as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and re-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank with fresh, treated water. Just throw a little food in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            third one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > close by. I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            add trace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > elements back into it. I am starting to lean toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            probability that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > was bad stock from the store. It will work out. A lot of people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try. It takes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > something..I turned on the light this morning and the water didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5984 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            maybe that contributed too, because I never did change the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and only cleaned it out. I do have a new one in there now with new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            carbon.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin, didn't you say you still had the same carbon in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with the filter? It is possible that the carbon had taken in all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the junk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > over time. Some people say carbon releases all that back out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            after it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > been in the tank too long (over a month). I have never come to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            conclusion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > if that is true or not, but it is possible that some carbon does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            release all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the junk under certain conditions. It could be the cleaning you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            did caused
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the carbon to lose its charge and release it into the tank. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > other than ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, stuff that you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            usually test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for. That could have done it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I suggest taking that carbon out of the filter. You can cut a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            slit in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the top of the cartridge in the floss part and shake the carbon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cartridge is still ok, and you can buy more carbon to put into it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > weeks at a time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: 10/08/04 12:56:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If you cleaned the filter too well then the bacterial bloom can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > well explained. If the fish went thru a complete cycle then their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > terrible health conditions and various diseases can be explained
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > probably why the fish perished. It would be a good idea to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > waterchange and wait for a week or 2 while feeding the filter with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fishfood (and a bit of stress zyme) should work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Can you give a brief timeline as to when you put the fish in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5985 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just wondering, will the parasites (if that's what it was) cling to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the rock and filter, etc, even if I do change all the water, or will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they just die or go dormant..a little confused on this. thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            erin


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am sorry this isn't going well for you. Change as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and re-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank with fresh, treated water. Just throw a little food in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            third one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > close by. I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            add trace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > elements back into it. I am starting to lean toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            probability that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > was bad stock from the store. It will work out. A lot of people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try. It takes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > something..I turned on the light this morning and the water didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5986 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Most of them die in the absence of fish but some have the capability
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to go dormant. The ones that go dormant are usually not fatal so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            doing a 100% change with vacuuming the gravel and waiting for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            couple of weeks will be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Things like ICK/ICH (Whitespot) can go dormant but difficult things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            like camallanus worms will die of when fish are not present. Actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the fish can fight off most parasites if it is strong and healthy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Just wondering, will the parasites (if that's what it was) cling to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the rock and filter, etc, even if I do change all the water, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they just die or go dormant..a little confused on this. thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I am sorry this isn't going well for you. Change as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            re-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank with fresh, treated water. Just throw a little food in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > third one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > close by. I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > add trace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > elements back into it. I am starting to lean toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > probability that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > was bad stock from the store. It will work out. A lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try. It takes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > something..I turned on the light this morning and the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5987 From: straubtyler Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Do I need new scavengers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            corys are prety hardy, however i think from past posts you are using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            salt. Some people have bad luck with catfish and salt. I had a cory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for about a year in my tank with salt he was the only cory and did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fine by himself untill my tiger botia took a bite out of his head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that bumb botia killed all my fish and did nothing for the snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thats the only reason i got him. anyway after he died i never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            replaced him the only scavenger i have is a pleco and the bottom of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my tank is always clean. so i dont think you realy need more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            scavangers. If you want more they wouldn't hurt but i dont think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there needed if you dont overfeed and you clean the gravle offten.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I always though Cory's were pretty hardy? But when I bough three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Cory's three weeks ago one 2" one and two smaller 1" ones. One of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > teh smaller ones died about five hours after I put him in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water was perfect then. Now after I accidentaly sucked the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > smaller one in a gravel vacume but I got him out before two second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > got tramitized and dies a few hours later. No visable wounds on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > him. Will the 2" Cory be OK by himself, can he keep a 30 gal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with the help of a 2" Pleco?? Would Ghost Shrimp help me keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > clean??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5988 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Could be any internal parasites or the fish must have been already very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            weak. Most fish stores do not even give the fish a few days to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            acclimatize/quarantine before selling them and hence the fish undergo too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            much stress to be able to have a healthy immune system. This is very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            commonly experienced with Dwarf gourami where the fish is subject to too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            much transportation and little acclimatization that by the time they reach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            us, they have already been infected with ulcers and other water quality
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            diseases. I have yet to see a good proper stock of Dwarf gourami outside of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            India.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: Erin [mailto:utacutie@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 08 October 2004 19:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >So these five fish from the store, if they were infected, could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >infected the other barb and gourami? What types of parasites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >contagious in fish tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I am sorry this isn't going well for you. Change as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and re-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> tank with fresh, treated water. Just throw a little food in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >fish. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >third one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> close by. I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >add trace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> elements back into it. I am starting to lean toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >probability that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> was bad stock from the store. It will work out. A lot of people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try. It takes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> something..I turned on the light this morning and the water didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5989 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think I'm going to set up a quarantine tank and take some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gravel out of my 29g and put it into the 10g that is not in use, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            start to quarantine my fish before putting them into the main tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I will probably wait and do the water change on sunday, since we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            having company tomorrow. I'm still going to continue feeding the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter to keep the cycle going. I'm really starting to think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it was where I bought the fish from, I probably wont go there again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and since my carbon is built in (i'm using a small and large filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on my tank, the small one is from the 10g) I will alternate changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the filter pads, and just get a new filter for the 10g. Well, gotta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            go run some errands, I will check back later to see what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Could be any internal parasites or the fish must have been already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > weak. Most fish stores do not even give the fish a few days to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > acclimatize/quarantine before selling them and hence the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            undergo too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > much stress to be able to have a healthy immune system. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > commonly experienced with Dwarf gourami where the fish is subject
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > much transportation and little acclimatization that by the time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they reach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > us, they have already been infected with ulcers and other water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            quality
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > diseases. I have yet to see a good proper stock of Dwarf gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            outside of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > India.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >From: Erin [mailto:utacutie@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Sent: 08 October 2004 19:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Another 2 fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >So these five fish from the store, if they were infected, could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >infected the other barb and gourami? What types of parasites are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >contagious in fish tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> I am sorry this isn't going well for you. Change as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            re-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> tank with fresh, treated water. Just throw a little food in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >fish. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >third one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> close by. I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >add trace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> elements back into it. I am starting to lean toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >probability that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> was bad stock from the store. It will work out. A lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            takes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> something..I turned on the light this morning and the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5990 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               How often did you change water for as long as you've had the tank? Has anyone mentioned overfeeding? Was the gravel new when you got it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            PS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I live in Harrisburg, PA, and a week or two ago we had rain that contaminated the local water-supply, so an advisory was issued to boil water for three minutes. That lasted almost a week, if I remember correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, which has been reliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for me, it's not old. I guess it doesn't matter anyways, when I woke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > up this morning the other 2 were gone. My water is slightly brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > looking, even after the 50% water change yesterday. I will look into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > doing the water changes from bottled water and check to see if my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > LFS has any available for a reasonable price for the future. I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > also going to call the water supply company here and check on that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > just to see if that is what happened. I would ask my neighbors in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the apartment complex, but I don't think anyone else keeps fish. Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the question is..what to do with an empty tank? :( I feel very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > discouraged...thanks again for all of your help and support, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > means so much to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > no that is right you need to find out what issues your tank or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > has... before getting more... is your testing kid old.. i think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > one lady had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > catanimated kit.. who knows.. i feel so bad for you.. cause i so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > know what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > going through.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Well, I did change every other day when the nitrites were high,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > then I planned on changing once a week. I bought my fish at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > private shop and the tanks were very clean, no dead fish, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > they did have some sort of parasite when I got them that layed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > dormant for awhile, I have had the new fish about one month. I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have a 10g tank in my closet that is not in use, but I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > definitely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > considering setting it up as a quarantine tank. Also, the gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that I have isn't doing so good at all either. It was thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > around, going crazy, swimming in all directions, so I filled my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bucket with treated water and she has seemed to calm down, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > doubt she will make it through the night. Thus, I am left with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > barb that I really doubt will make it through tomorrow, so the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > will be empty..then what? I know I just can't add more fish but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > so lost!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5991 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've done a bomb with two 75-gallon tanks, (or maybe when I only had one), but I covered the tanks with plastic bags, so there was a relatively good seal.  (I had a sump under the aquarium. Part of a trickle/spray-bar/DLS system). There's a product (or was)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            called "OXYGENATOR", that's a concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. It catalyzes oxygen into the water from a bottle (turned upside-down) into a special ceramic-dish. Whether or not that was the reason for no fish loss, I can't say, but I never had problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas. Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a bug bomb asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have. They are a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5992 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If the filter was very dirty, it could have accomodated colonies of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was only 5 or six months old, and fish from LFS's often carry parasites/diseases. I'm curious about how often you did water changes during those 5 or 6 months. A filter should never be so dirty that you change water color when you remove it. It should not cloud water if you remove it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you have? I've bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I don't think I'll use it again. It started turning the water brown. Where did you get the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility of a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This cloudyness however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water that killed the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the best procedure forward will be to restart all over again from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and filter along with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100% water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it matured. wait for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras, barbs, tetras etc. (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > community fish). Many tetras can be more vicious then tiger barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Second possibility is that the fish were already sick when you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > them and hence perished. This means that the disease will still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the tank and the above method will still work. You could however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile to keep it cycled and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they are something that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long. All depends what the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously rid these but will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by anychance use ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you missed it. You also have another tank thats running that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank. Please clarify this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank" let me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5993 From: Nimish Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Joe, The product you are mentioning is i think Oxydator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (www.oxydator.de). I have also used this a few times and it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wonderfull product in creating an oxygen rich enviornment but it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            be a deathwish for live plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I've done a bomb with two 75-gallon tanks, (or maybe when I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had one), but I covered the tanks with plastic bags, so there was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            relatively good seal. (I had a sump under the aquarium. Part of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            trickle/spray-bar/DLS system). There's a product (or was)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > called "OXYGENATOR", that's a concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            catalyzes oxygen into the water from a bottle (turned upside-down)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            into a special ceramic-dish. Whether or not that was the reason for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            no fish loss, I can't say, but I never had problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a bug bomb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5994 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             There's something called a "triplet". You can get them from "Edmunds-Scientific", in different magnifications, and prices. Or if you have an old binocular or telescope, take it apart, and work with the lenses, looking at the inside of the aquarium-glass, around gravel-level, and just above and below gravvel level, and see if you can see anything moving? You could look at other parts of your setup when you remove them for cleaning. The 'triplets' and anything that you have to get really close to the aquarium (squint/one-eyed close), and see what's there will possibly help you realize there are possibly other visible creatures in your tank. As for determining which are parasitical, that's an iffy issue. The last book I remember reading on the fish subject, involving parasites, indicated it's not an absolutely thorough field of research. Wherever uneaten food, or plant-parts accumulate (especially food), seems to be where little creatures accumulate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 PS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't want to feel you're reluctant to do what's desireable in order to determine if you need to break down your setup and disinfect everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Just wondering, will the parasites (if that's what it was) cling to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the rock and filter, etc, even if I do change all the water, or will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they just die or go dormant..a little confused on this. thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I am sorry this isn't going well for you. Change as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > can get out, leave filters, gravel, and plants as they are, and re-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank with fresh, treated water. Just throw a little food in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > will keep the bacteria going for a while until you get the new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > might want to get the fish from a new fish store if you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > third one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > close by. I figure it was just bad stock from the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > R/O is reverse osmosis, a little expensive, plus you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > add trace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > elements back into it. I am starting to lean toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > probability that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > was bad stock from the store. It will work out. A lot of people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > me, lose their first fish, no matter how hard you try. It takes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > learning and luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > The other 2 fish died :( It's like an epidemic hit the tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > something..I turned on the light this morning and the water didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > look brown, maybe I just saw it wrong..it's just REALLY cloudy!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > guessing R/O is reverse osmosis.. how does that work and how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > does it cost to get a system for that. I do have driftwood in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > but it's been in there ever since I set up the tank. Could that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > still be a factor? No kids here, and no one touches the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for me, so I know no one poured anything in there. How do I keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank from "re-cyling" with no fish in there now that it's fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycled? Do I have to start over now?? I am definitely going to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > community fish once this gets cleared up. Barbs do nip a lot, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > even though the gourami didn't seem that aggressive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > not take my chances again, and plus the community fish are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > pretty and have some neat colors. So where to start..do I need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > change the water now? I have a digital cam so I'm going to go take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > picture and I will post under the photo section soon. Maybe it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > be better to see a picture so we can all go from there. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5995 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm absolutely sure it was called "oxygenator", but I'm interested to know you know of a different product. I had mostly Hygrophilia in my tanks, and can't say they suffered. Try looking-up 'oxygenator' (maybe inserting something like'fish', or 'aquariums' would help. I don't know if they still make it?) on Google, and I think it was made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticles.<spelling?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Joe, The product you are mentioning is i think Oxydator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (www.oxydator.de). I have also used this a few times and it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wonderfull product in creating an oxygen rich enviornment but it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > be a deathwish for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I've done a bomb with two 75-gallon tanks, (or maybe when I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > had one), but I covered the tanks with plastic bags, so there was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > relatively good seal. (I had a sump under the aquarium. Part of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > trickle/spray-bar/DLS system). There's a product (or was)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > called "OXYGENATOR", that's a concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > catalyzes oxygen into the water from a bottle (turned upside-down)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > into a special ceramic-dish. Whether or not that was the reason for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > no fish loss, I can't say, but I never had problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a bug bomb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Cheyenne, Wyoming
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5996 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another 2 fish died...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I changed the water at least once a week. Maybe I did overfeed, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I tried not to. The gravel was new when I got it, and I just washed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it off thoroughly right out of the bag and put it into the tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            live in TX, but didn't hear of anything like you're saying..I may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            call the water supply company on Monday to see if any changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            occurred.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > How often did you change water for as long as you've had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank? Has anyone mentioned overfeeding? Was the gravel new when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            got it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > PS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I live in Harrisburg, PA, and a week or two ago we had rain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that contaminated the local water-supply, so an advisory was issued
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to boil water for three minutes. That lasted almost a week, if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            remember correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I have an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, which has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            reliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for me, it's not old. I guess it doesn't matter anyways, when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            woke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > up this morning the other 2 were gone. My water is slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > looking, even after the 50% water change yesterday. I will look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > doing the water changes from bottled water and check to see if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > LFS has any available for a reasonable price for the future. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > also going to call the water supply company here and check on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > just to see if that is what happened. I would ask my neighbors
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the apartment complex, but I don't think anyone else keeps fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the question is..what to do with an empty tank? :( I feel very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > discouraged...thanks again for all of your help and support, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > means so much to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > no that is right you need to find out what issues your tank or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > has... before getting more... is your testing kid old.. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > one lady had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > catanimated kit.. who knows.. i feel so bad for you.. cause i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > know what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > going through.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Well, I did change every other day when the nitrites were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            high,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > then I planned on changing once a week. I bought my fish at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > private shop and the tanks were very clean, no dead fish, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > they did have some sort of parasite when I got them that layed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > dormant for awhile, I have had the new fish about one month. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > have a 10g tank in my closet that is not in use, but I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > definitely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > considering setting it up as a quarantine tank. Also, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that I have isn't doing so good at all either. It was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > around, going crazy, swimming in all directions, so I filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bucket with treated water and she has seemed to calm down, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > doubt she will make it through the night. Thus, I am left with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > barb that I really doubt will make it through tomorrow, so the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > will be empty..then what? I know I just can't add more fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > so lost!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5997 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            days ago and that's when all of this started. I also noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday when I do partial water changes the water looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If the filter was very dirty, it could have accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            months old, and fish from LFS's often carry parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            curious about how often you did water changes during those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            months. A filter should never be so dirty that you change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            color when you remove it. It should not cloud water if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            use it again. It started turning the water brown. Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100% water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras, barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Second possibility is that the fish were already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > them and hence perished. This means that the disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the tank and the above method will still work. You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long. All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > you missed it. You also have another tank thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank. Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5998 From: J. Pascavage Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How deep is your gravel, and how deep into the gravel do you go when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clean it? I' don't think it's abnormal to see brown in your outgo water if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you're gravel bed is too shallow, or you go too deep into the gravel with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            siphon when cleaning. What I can't figure is whether or not there should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brown in two months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Erin" <utacutie@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: pics of tank


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > curious about how often you did water changes during those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > use it again. It started turning the water brown. Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100% water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras, barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the tank and the above method will still work. You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long. All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank. Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 5999 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My gravel is about 1 1/2 inches or so, and I haven't vacuumed it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yet, because I was waiting for the beneficial bacteria to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            itself, so it's been 2 months without vacuuming.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Pascavage" <j.pascavage@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > How deep is your gravel, and how deep into the gravel do you go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > clean it? I' don't think it's abnormal to see brown in your outgo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you're gravel bed is too shallow, or you go too deep into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gravel with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > siphon when cleaning. What I can't figure is whether or not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > brown in two months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "Erin" <utacutie@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have accomodated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry parasites/diseases.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > curious about how often you did water changes during those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > use it again. It started turning the water brown. Where did you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but I did add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green barbs and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the option of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then adding a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the junk that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart all over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and filter along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100% water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it matured. wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras, barbs, tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the most peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were already sick when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > the tank and the above method will still work. You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long. All depends
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question before as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank thats running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank. Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under "ErinCloudyTank"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6000 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Weird test results (update)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just for the record, my 25 gallon Eclipse was O ammonia, O Nitrites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and O Nitrates today. I did a 60% water change, retested...waited a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            few hours while I worked HARD at catching these incredibly FAST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            teensy baby Diamond Tetras...acclimated them to the water...took a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            deep breath... and put them in the tank. Actually, I could only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            catch six of the eight, but I'll work on getting the other two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had to completely give up trying to catch 'em w/ a net, and get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            creative...luring them into a glass w/ a touch of food in it. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            worked! It was a very satisfying sight seeing these babies in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            new home, beginning to school (or is it shoal??), and even eating a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            little bit. VERY satisfying...!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            THANK ALL OF YOU SOOOO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "15 yrs of fish keeping I have yet to see a tap water (Without an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            RO unit or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a denitrator fitted) to have zero nitrates."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My tap water has 0 nitrates, and I live in a farm area. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6001 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is that with a ug filter?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My gravel is about 1 1/2 inches or so, and I haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > vacuumed it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yet, because I was waiting for the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bacteria to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > itself, so it's been 2 months without vacuuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Pascavage" <j.pascavage@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > How deep is your gravel, and how deep into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gravel do you go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > clean it? I' don't think it's abnormal to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > brown in your outgo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you're gravel bed is too shallow, or you go too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > deep into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gravel with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > siphon when cleaning. What I can't figure is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > whether or not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > brown in two months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > From: "Erin" <utacutie@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > than it is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > clean it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > also noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thought it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > accomodated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > was only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > parasites/diseases.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > curious about how often you did water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > during those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > use it again. It started turning the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > brown. Where did you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but I did add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > green barbs and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > maybe when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the option of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > then adding a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the junk that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > possibility of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > This cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank/water that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > restart all over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 100% water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it matured. wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > barbs, tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > most peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > already sick when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > the tank and the above method will still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > work. You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > meanwhile to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > long. All depends
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > obviously rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6002 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > curious about how often you did water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > use it again. It started turning the water brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the tank and the above method will still work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6003 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            no, I have 2 hang on the back filters running

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is that with a ug filter?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- Erin <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > My gravel is about 1 1/2 inches or so, and I haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > vacuumed it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yet, because I was waiting for the beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bacteria to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > itself, so it's been 2 months without vacuuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "J.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Pascavage" <j.pascavage@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > How deep is your gravel, and how deep into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gravel do you go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > clean it? I' don't think it's abnormal to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > brown in your outgo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > you're gravel bed is too shallow, or you go too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > deep into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gravel with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > siphon when cleaning. What I can't figure is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > whether or not there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > brown in two months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > From: "Erin" <utacutie@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > than it is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > clean it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > also noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > thought it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > accomodated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > was only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > parasites/diseases.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > curious about how often you did water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > during those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and I don't think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > use it again. It started turning the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > brown. Where did you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > but I did add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > green barbs and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > maybe when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > in the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the option of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > then adding a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the junk that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > possibility of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > This cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank/water that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > restart all over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > 100% water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it matured. wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > barbs, tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > most peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > already sick when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > the tank and the above method will still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > work. You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > meanwhile to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > they are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > long. All depends
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > obviously rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > === message truncated ===
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6004 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Mine is african driftwood from a local store, it was kinda expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (8.00) for a small piece.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- Erin <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > curious about how often you did water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > use it again. It started turning the water brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > the tank and the above method will still work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6005 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Don't get me wrong, but unless you can absolutely establish the nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be sure of what you buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club with some very expert members who are very aware of the natures of wood they're using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and unless precautions are taken using them, (proper respirators, dust-blowers to pull the dust into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can get worse than sick. I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit, but there's always that chance. The officials in the United States, from what I've read, have'nt established the range of dangers from breathing something as common as pine-dust from sawing/sanding, 'tho they're able to ascertain how dangerous some southern hemisphere wood is. Particular mention was made of some woods from the southern hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which ones they are. I know some people on this list have issued advice on how to treat driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how right or wrong they are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if thet can't confirm the history of the wood in question, and you can verify it, it's a gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Mine is african driftwood from a local store, it was kinda expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (8.00) for a small piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- Erin wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > curious about how often you did water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > use it again. It started turning the water brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > the tank and the above method will still work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Erin
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6006 From: Erin Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It had a little tag on it with the company and all that said African
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            driftwood. I don't know if that's the problem, but it's been in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank ever since I set it up about 2 months ago. There are so many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            factors that could've gone wrong, so I'm starting to get confused!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the input though, it's something to consider,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Don't get me wrong, but unless you can absolutely establish the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be sure of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club with some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            expert members who are very aware of the natures of wood they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and unless precautions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            taken using them, (proper respirators, dust-blowers to pull the dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can get worse than sick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit, but there's always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that chance. The officials in the United States, from what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            read, have'nt established the range of dangers from breathing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            something as common as pine-dust from sawing/sanding, 'tho they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            able to ascertain how dangerous some southern hemisphere wood is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Particular mention was made of some woods from the southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which ones they are. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            know some people on this list have issued advice on how to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how right or wrong they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if thet can't confirm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the history of the wood in question, and you can verify it, it's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Mine is african driftwood from a local store, it was kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > (8.00) for a small piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- Erin wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > curious about how often you did water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > use it again. It started turning the water brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > the tank and the above method will still work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6007 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is wood really that dangerous?  In this case, Erin says it was sold as African driftwood.  I doubt a fish store could confirm where it came from, it is probably brought in in boxes from a warehouse where it was imported from some guy in Africa.  That's just my idea, I don't know if that is how it works.  I doubt there is really anybody out of Africa that could determine where it came from, and they wouldn't remember unless they marked it.  I would say that there is nothing in driftwood that is dangerous to a fish.  That said, it depends on where it came from.  If the wood was collected from near a drainage pipe or farm, or if it came into contact with something after being collected, it could have absorbed stuff that could be dangerous to fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Don't get me wrong, but unless you can absolutely establish the nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be sure of what you buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club with some very expert members who are very aware of the natures of wood they're using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and unless precautions are taken using them, (proper respirators, dust-blowers to pull the dust into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can get worse than sick. I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit, but there's always that chance. The officials in the United States, from what I've read, have'nt established the range of dangers from breathing something as common as pine-dust from sawing/sanding, 'tho they're able to ascertain how dangerous some southern hemisphere wood is. Particular mention was made of some woods from the southern hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which ones they are. I know some people on this list have issued advice on how to treat driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how right or wrong they are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if thet can't confirm the history of the wood in question, and you can verify it, it's a gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6008 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Here's a link that, when scrolling down the page, you'll find a list of woods/plants that are considered dangerous to BIRDS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          HTTP://WWW.MDVADEN.COM/BIRD-PAGE.SHTML
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 This link:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ..............where you can see a wifes' concern about her husbands choice of woods for barbquing. She had more sense than her husband.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           I read in that short search that Black-Walnut should be considered poisonous for horses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yew, Laburnum, Rhododendron, Elder, Horsechestnut and Buckthorn are considered poisonous. And of course, there's Poison Sumac.l
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I don't think you'd need to look very far to see how distrustful some people are when confronted with the possibility of buying or choosing driftwood. Another aspect, in the aquarium-hobby is, that, experts advise the chemistry be removed from the wood, by specific means, before use in an aquarium, and that some apparent driftwood not be used. I think I remember a preference for wood that is certafiably 'bogwood', rather than driftwood. As far as that goes, I don't think bogs are any safer than streams where gamefish caught, are not safe to eat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Type "poisonous-woods" in Google (without the quotation-marks, and WITH the hyphen) and see what happens. You could also type;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  'poisonous-african-woods'.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      PS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sawdust dangers, if not ingested from working with otherwise not considered poisonous wood is dangerous because of the chemistry, and I imagine particles (cellulosis), and what a fish experiences from dissolving/leeching chemicals is anybodys guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is wood really that dangerous? In this case, Erin says it was sold as African driftwood. I doubt a fish store could confirm where it came from, it is probably brought in in boxes from a warehouse where it was imported from some guy in Africa. That's just my idea, I don't know if that is how it works. I doubt there is really anybody out of Africa that could determine where it came from, and they wouldn't remember unless they marked it. I would say that there is nothing in driftwood that is dangerous to a fish. That said, it depends on where it came from. If the wood was collected from near a drainage pipe or farm, or if it came into contact with something after being collected, it could have absorbed stuff that could be dangerous to fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't get me wrong, but unless you can absolutely establish the nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be sure of what you buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club with some very expert members who are very aware of the natures of wood they're using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and unless precautions are taken using them, (proper respirators, dust-blowers to pull the dust into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can get worse than sick. I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit, but there's always that chance. The officials in the United States, from what I've read, have'nt established the range of dangers from breathing something as common as pine-dust from sawing/sanding, 'tho they're able to ascertain how dangerous some southern hemisphere wood is. Particular mention was made of some woods from the southern hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which ones they are. I know some people on this list have issued advice on how to treat driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how right or wrong they are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if thet can't confirm the history of the wood in question, and you can verify it, it's a gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              JoeP






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6009 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i was not saying that the wood was dangerous, don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              know if someone else did, i just meant that it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              discolors water. drift wood is not meant for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aquariums as it floats instead of sinking, unless it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              has been altered. generally you can purchase ROOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WOOD which does sink pretty much immediately. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              root woods do not discolor as much as drift woods, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              many types of plecos like to munch on root wood. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is easy to setermine the origin, as it is imported.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              african root wood generally is a deeper brown with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lighter brown stripe on it, while the south american
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              root wood is generally larger and more of a grayosh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              brown color. the south american wood does turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water much more yellow (much like peat) and is hence a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bit cheaper and easier to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Is wood really that dangerous? In this case,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Erin says it was sold as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > African driftwood. I doubt a fish store could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > confirm where it came from,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it is probably brought in in boxes from a warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > where it was imported
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > from some guy in Africa. That's just my idea, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't know if that is how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it works. I doubt there is really anybody out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Africa that could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > determine where it came from, and they wouldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > remember unless they marked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it. I would say that there is nothing in driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that is dangerous to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish. That said, it depends on where it came from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If the wood was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > collected from near a drainage pipe or farm, or if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it came into contact with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > something after being collected, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > absorbed stuff that could be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dangerous to fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Don't get me wrong, but unless you can absolutely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > establish the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > sure of what you buy for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club with some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > very expert members who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are very aware of the natures of wood they're using.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Some woods are deadly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to humans, and unless precautions are taken using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > them, (proper respirators,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dust-blowers to pull the dust into a safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > containment, etc.), a big man can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get worse than sick. I'm not saying your driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is the culprit, but there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > s always that chance. The officials in the United
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > States, from what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > read, have'nt established the range of dangers from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > breathing something as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > common as pine-dust from sawing/sanding, 'tho
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they're able to ascertain how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dangerous some southern hemisphere wood is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Particular mention was made of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > some woods from the southern hemisphere, and I wish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to God I remembered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > which ones they are. I know some people on this list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have issued advice on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > how to treat driftwood, but other than that, I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > know how right or wrong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thet can't confirm the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > history of the wood in question, and you can verify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it, it's a gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > JoeP




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6010 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              drift wood is generally meant to be used in reptile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tanks and is probably not cleaned or stored as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > It had a little tag on it with the company and all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that said African
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > driftwood. I don't know if that's the problem, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it's been in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank ever since I set it up about 2 months ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > There are so many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > factors that could've gone wrong, so I'm starting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get confused!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks for the input though, it's something to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > consider,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Don't get me wrong, but unless you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > absolutely establish the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > sure of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > expert members who are very aware of the natures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wood they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > precautions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > taken using them, (proper respirators, dust-blowers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to pull the dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > worse than sick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there's always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that chance. The officials in the United States,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > from what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > read, have'nt established the range of dangers from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > breathing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > something as common as pine-dust from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > sawing/sanding, 'tho they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > able to ascertain how dangerous some southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hemisphere wood is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Particular mention was made of some woods from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ones they are. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > know some people on this list have issued advice on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > how to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > right or wrong they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if thet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > can't confirm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the history of the wood in question, and you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > verify it, it's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Mine is african driftwood from a local store, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > was kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > (8.00) for a small piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > -- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > any wood in the tank will discolor it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > --- Erin wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > days ago and that's when all of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > curious about how often you did water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > color when you remove it. It should not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > use it again. It started turning the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > -------------- Original message
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6011 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              5-8 is normal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Mine is african driftwood from a local store, it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > kinda expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (8.00) for a small piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- Erin <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > curious about how often you did water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > use it again. It started turning the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > the tank and the above method will still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6012 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i don't think that's the case at all. i have two large pieces of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              driftwood in my tank, one for almost a year, one for at least 6 months,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and my water is crystal clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Oct 8, 2004, at 9:35 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat.  most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > curious about how often you did water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > use it again. It started turning the water brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >                    Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the tank and the above method will still work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6013 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    African and Malaysian Driftwood are both marketed specifically for aquariums because both of them sink.  They don't turn the water colors either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                drift wood is generally meant to be used in reptile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tanks and is probably not cleaned or stored as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6014 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they will over time, but no where nearly as drsatic of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a pigment as the south american stuff

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > African and Malaysian Driftwood are both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > marketed specifically for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > aquariums because both of them sink. They don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > turn the water colors
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > drift wood is generally meant to be used in reptile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tanks and is probably not cleaned or stored as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6015 From: paul helms Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the amount of carbon running in the system does play a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                factor in the clarity of the water. not all woods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                disocolor as badly, and carbon directly pulls the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pigment out of the water. i don't know what the case
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is in your tank. in addition, many items may be sold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as "drift wood" when it is actually root wood. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                whole point is that true drift wood is the stuff that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                floats around the ocean, lakes, and rivers and ends up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                on the banks, while root and heart wood sink.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i don't think that's the case at all. i have two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > large pieces of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > driftwood in my tank, one for almost a year, one for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at least 6 months,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and my water is crystal clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > On Oct 8, 2004, at 9:35 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat.�
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > days ago and that's when all of this started. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > curious about how often you did water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > color when you remove it. It should not cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > use it again. It started turning the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >������������������� Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -------------- Original message
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the best procedure forward will be to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > them and hence perished. This means that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the tank and the above method will still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6016 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Who would want to buy "root wood" or "bog wood"?  It is all marketing I tell ya! :)  Driftwood sounds familiar to most people, it gives the idea of the open water, where fish live.  Root wood sounds like a witch's ingredient and bog wood sounds like something you would find in a smelly, dirty swamp.  Give it a nice name and it will fly off the shelf.  Plus "driftwood", whatever it really is, has been used in aquaria for 40 years at least (that is as far back as I can find books published in my college library), so it has some historical roots.  Get it, historical "roots". :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6017 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  most LFS's around where i live only carry malaysian driftwood and warn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  customers against any other kind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Oct 9, 2004, at 1:57 AM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >     African and Malaysian Driftwood are both marketed specifically for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > aquariums because both of them sink.  They don't turn the water colors
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6018 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, if college forensics catagorically rules out the possibility of dishonesty and the profit motive in the selling of driftwood, who am I to offer my two-cents?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Who would want to buy "root wood" or "bog wood"? It is all marketing I tell ya! :) Driftwood sounds familiar to most people, it gives the idea of the open water, where fish live. Root wood sounds like a witch's ingredient and bog wood sounds like something you would find in a smelly, dirty swamp. Give it a nice name and it will fly off the shelf. Plus "driftwood", whatever it really is, has been used in aquaria for 40 years at least (that is as far back as I can find books published in my college library), so it has some historical roots. Get it, historical "roots". :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6019 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you're interested, here's a link (I hope I type this right):
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ...........concerning using bogwood in aquaria. One of the references to the article was a Dr. Burgess, who's been the author, or collaborator writing some of the most popular books on fish and aquaria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     A google-search of 'bogwood in aquariums or aquaria will show that bogwood has  reputation of acceptability, if used properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Who would want to buy "root wood" or "bog wood"? It is all marketing I tell ya! :) Driftwood sounds familiar to most people, it gives the idea of the open water, where fish live. Root wood sounds like a witch's ingredient and bog wood sounds like something you would find in a smelly, dirty swamp. Give it a nice name and it will fly off the shelf. Plus "driftwood", whatever it really is, has been used in aquaria for 40 years at least (that is as far back as I can find books published in my college library), so it has some historical roots. Get it, historical "roots". :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6020 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Cories and Re: Fleas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had issues w/ the smaller of the Cories I have brought home. I have just learned to give them a month or so, and if they don't make it, attribute it to existing health prblems. I've had great luck w/ my Pandas (knock on wood), but my Juhlis have a horrible survival rate. And supposedly Pandas are finicky.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And I can second the Frontline (or Frontline Plus). I use it on my dogs over the summer, and no problems with fleas or ticks-and I used it when I lived in FL w/ the same results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you have a serious infestation, I would think even a powder or spray would be better than bombing the house, but still cover the tanks well. Fleas are going to stay in the carpet or furniture (things w/ fiber), so I think bombing is extreme for fleas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Giving your pets garlic supplemets can also help, I know many people who take a more natural/holistic approach who swear by it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6021 From: jim Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: advice & pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Erin,, you are probably so overwhelmed by all the good advice,, ive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  read every post in response to your initial inquirys, i feel for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you, been there , had unexplainable crashes myself and just never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  figure them out,,, but i still keep fish, currently 3 salt tanks & 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  freshwater, lets see , we've seen / walnuts are bad for horses, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  kind of wood will poison birds, go buy a $600 R/O unit, african
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wood, solid wood, sinking wood, carbon, filters, gravel.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  blah....blah....blah......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  InMYHonestOpinion... declorinate some fresh water(change it often as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you feel or think it looks bad) in a clean bucket, use a nylon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  brisle brush(kind'a soft bristles), brush off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wood,ornaments,large stones,rinse your filter pads out with it(dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  use new ones),break down both filters,genly scrubbing all parts in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the clean dechlorinated water(maybe use a baby bottle brush to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  down inside)dont forget inside the filter tubes(typically,a hang on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter is not too difficult to break down , pay close attention
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  where the parts go, so it will go back together............still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  using fresh dechlorinated water,, fill the tank(1/2 full is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  good),,then really stir up the gravel( no air , no filters) let all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the muck settle to the bottom, then siphon over the surface,, down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the drain,, DO THIS AGAIN ,half full,stir, settle, siphon..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  repeating till you think the gravel is mostly clean,,,put it all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  back together, fill it up , start it up, get a few fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (mollies,guppies,,nothin fancy or expensive)and sit back and enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  them,,,, since you rinsed with dechlorinated water, a good protion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of the bacteria culture will survive to re-seed itsself,, even if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the parts/pieces dried out while you worked, when you add fish, be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  very VERY CAREFUL not to over feed them(remember,their stomachs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  not much larger than their eye,dont take much to fill them up) do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  not feed so much that ANY sinks to the bottom, be patient and watch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the whole time,, the mini-cycle should take about a week or two ,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  test the water a couple times a day ,, PH & Temp,of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  course,ammonia,then nitrite in turn, nitrates will start coming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  up ,,, then its time to get into water changes,, i use two 5 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pails(NEVER HAD ANYTHING IN THEM BUT WATER)i fill 1 pail with 4 to 4-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1/2 gals today dechlorinate it,,,, then tomoroow i siphon out same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amount(discard) then add the new water in the other pail, slowly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i pray it all goes well,,please do , let me know...regards, Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6022 From: Erin Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  haha..maybe it is "root wood" because it's not floating..well it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  kinda did at first, but then it got saturated with water and stayed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  at the bottom. Woke up this morning and the tank is still very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cloudy..maybe because I put the new filter cartridges in? I'm about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to go test the water and update on here,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Erin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Who would want to buy "root wood" or "bog wood"? It is all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  marketing I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tell ya! :) Driftwood sounds familiar to most people, it gives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the open water, where fish live. Root wood sounds like a witch's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ingredient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and bog wood sounds like something you would find in a smelly,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  dirty swamp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Give it a nice name and it will fly off the shelf.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Plus "driftwood",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > whatever it really is, has been used in aquaria for 40 years at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  least (that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is as far back as I can find books published in my college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  library), so it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > has some historical roots. Get it, historical "roots". :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6023 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Don't get me wrong, but unless you can absolutely establish the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be sure of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  buy for driftwood.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You are right about that...and holly wood, though hard and long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  lasting, is EXTREMELY toxic to fish. As a landscaper I have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  across several instances where very large ponds had mass die offs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  when someone who didn't know better decided to plant hollies (of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  size and shape) around their pond, or close enough to it that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  leaves and branches went into the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6024 From: loreleicosner Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thank you.. I will start putting a little in my betta's tank on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Monday. He has a 1 gal. tank, so I won't put too much. I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  someone posted how much to put. I'm in the archives now, so I'll look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it up and record it for future reference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This list is so nice. :) Everyone is so helpful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > as long as it is natural sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- Lorelei Cosner <loreleicosner@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Is sea salt from the store good to use in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aquarium? I buy that instead of regular salt for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > cooking, and it would be neat if I can use it for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > fishies too. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6025 From: loreleicosner Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Making sure....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok, I just read that for five gallons, you can add 1 Tablespoon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  salt. For a one gallon tank, I just want to double-check, that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  between 1/2 and 3/4 of a teaspoon, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I cook all the time, so I'm good with measurements, but I'm not taking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chances with Thai. I love that little betta.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have another question. Are there any betta breeders who breed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bettas the way they used to look? I mean, without the fins being so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  long? I was looking at a book about bettas, and they showed some that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  were nice and colorful, but didn't have fins that looked so fragile.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My betta's fins aren't damaged, but these 'older model' bettas were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sooooooo pretty to me. I was just wondering if they are still being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bred, and where I can find them. I'm not opposed to an online LFS, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  long as they are reputable and ship their fish with care.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I collect fish, I'd like to do it slowly, and with care. Every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish I get has to be one that I've thought a bit about... I don't just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  want to dump a bunch of fish into a tank, and then later wish I'd been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  more patient. Not that setting up a tank quickly is bad... I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  know how I am, personally, lol. I'll set my sights on something, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if I don't do a bit of research before jumping in, I know I change my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mind later. Since fish are live and can be affected by my decisions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd like to be absolutely sure when I make up my mind. My pets are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  part of my family... whether they feel like it or not. *grin*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6026 From: paul helms Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  lol, that is what i was trying to say, alot of times
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it is marketed witha similar name, but it is not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  stuff you find at the beach. good one pat!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Who would want to buy "root wood" or "bog wood"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It is all marketing I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tell ya! :) Driftwood sounds familiar to most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > people, it gives the idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the open water, where fish live. Root wood sounds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > like a witch's ingredient
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and bog wood sounds like something you would find in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a smelly, dirty swamp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Give it a nice name and it will fly off the shelf.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Plus "driftwood",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > whatever it really is, has been used in aquaria for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 40 years at least (that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is as far back as I can find books published in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > college library), so it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > has some historical roots. Get it, historical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "roots". :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6027 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Switching tanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm getting ready to set up a little 6 gallon Eclipse in my guest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bathroom, in place of the 10 gallon garage sale aquarium with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  betta. It will have the same stuff in it, except I'm adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Flourite, and putting about 1/3 of the gravel and rocks back in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  new tank, along with the REAL plants. Since so much is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  stuff, if I even transfer the same water, does the new tank still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have to cycle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6028 From: jim Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hello Barb ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i dont know anything about "flourite" but for a betta,, id say it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wont have to cycle , bettas relay a lot on atmosperic air, doubtful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  at all if the fish will notice the change....regards...Jim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm getting ready to set up a little 6 gallon Eclipse in my guest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bathroom, in place of the 10 gallon garage sale aquarium with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > betta. It will have the same stuff in it, except I'm adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Flourite, and putting about 1/3 of the gravel and rocks back in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > new tank, along with the REAL plants. Since so much is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stuff, if I even transfer the same water, does the new tank still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have to cycle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6029 From: paul helms Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the betta will probably be just fine. his "gills" are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  not as affected by the ammonia spike as he breathes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  atmospheric oxygen. you will have a mini cycle as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  are not taking 60% of teh gravel to a tank 60% of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  size, but the plants should keep it plenty healthy for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  him. i would not worry about it, but would put some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  live bacteria in 9stress zyme or fritz zyme)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm getting ready to set up a little 6 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Eclipse in my guest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bathroom, in place of the 10 gallon garage sale
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > aquarium with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > betta. It will have the same stuff in it, except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Flourite, and putting about 1/3 of the gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > rocks back in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > new tank, along with the REAL plants. Since so much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stuff, if I even transfer the same water, does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > new tank still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have to cycle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6030 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: some advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You don't say what size rocks you are planning to use. Many of us use a few large rocks for decoration, for "aqua-scaping" or to give certain fish some cover against more agressive fish as in the case of some Cichlids. However, if you are thinking about using smaller (2"-3") rocks/stones and/or pebbles as a substrate or entire bottom covering, I would have to advise against this. The spaces between the pebbles or stones would be too large, allowing any uneaten food to accumulate down in between them out of reach of any fish including catfish which would ordinarily clean it up. This uneaten food would quickly foul the water and lead to problems. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6031 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You probably never noticed it before with your Gourami, but going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the surface for air is as normal for this fish as it is for a Betta.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  These two fish are in the same family and are closely related -- in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  addition to using their gills, they both breathe air. And, as for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  air; I presume most people use just one airstone, but that's not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  say you can use more. Some people use one long (up to 12") airstone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  or an "airwand" toward the rear of the tank to create a curtain of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  air bubbles. Increased aeration will not put more oxygen in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water -- extremely little if any oxygen is absorbed into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  from the air bubbles. Aeration is used to create a current to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  constantly expose new water to the surface where the oxygen is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  absorbed, giving that body of water an increased opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  absorb oxygen at a faster rate than under normal still conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then too, even under normally aerated conditions, water will hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  only a certain amount of oxygen at any given temperature. The cleaner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the water, the more oxygen the water will hold up until its point of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  saturation for that temperature. Likewise, the cooler the water, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  more oxygen the water will hold as compared to warmer water which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  will not hold as much. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6032 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sounds like a plan, Paul and Jim...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks muchly for your help. Nice to know that I don't have to wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  several weeks to put him in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cheers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the betta will probably be just fine. his "gills" are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not as affected by the ammonia spike as he breathes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > atmospheric oxygen. you will have a mini cycle as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are not taking 60% of teh gravel to a tank 60% of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > size, but the plants should keep it plenty healthy for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > him. i would not worry about it, but would put some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > live bacteria in 9stress zyme or fritz zyme)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I'm getting ready to set up a little 6 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Eclipse in my guest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > bathroom, in place of the 10 gallon garage sale
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aquarium with one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > betta. It will have the same stuff in it, except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I'm adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Flourite, and putting about 1/3 of the gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > rocks back in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > new tank, along with the REAL plants. Since so much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > stuff, if I even transfer the same water, does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > new tank still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > have to cycle?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6033 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Wetzel"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <sevenspringss@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > You probably never noticed it before with your Gourami, but going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the surface for air is as normal for this fish as it is for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Betta.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > These two fish are in the same family and are closely related --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > addition to using their gills, they both breathe air. And, as for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > air; I presume most people use just one airstone, but that's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > say you can use more. Some people use one long (up to 12")
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  airstone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > or an "airwand" toward the rear of the tank to create a curtain of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > air bubbles. Increased aeration will not put more oxygen in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water -- extremely little if any oxygen is absorbed into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > from the air bubbles. Aeration is used to create a current to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > constantly expose new water to the surface where the oxygen is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > absorbed, giving that body of water an increased opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > absorb oxygen at a faster rate than under normal still conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Then too, even under normally aerated conditions, water will hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > only a certain amount of oxygen at any given temperature. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cleaner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the water, the more oxygen the water will hold up until its point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > saturation for that temperature. Likewise, the cooler the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > more oxygen the water will hold as compared to warmer water which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > will not hold as much. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6034 From: Steve Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've used a Python for years with no problems. I don't even adjust the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for temperature unless I am doing a massive water change on a tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Depending on where I was living and the local tap water conditions, I'd add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Novaqua or Amquel to the tank, in the proper amount, as the new water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  being added. I do not use it of fry tanks, and only once on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  _Julidochromis transcriptus_ tank, when I kept them, because the julies are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  rather sensitive to water changes of any kind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hint: Once you have the siphon going, you can generally turn off the tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  whilst removing the water, and turn it on for the refills.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Nimish [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 11:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jo,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I dont deny the benefits of Python in any way. I myself have a total
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of 6-8 tanks and 2 are 100+ gallons. If pythin can be most useful to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  some one, it is people like me who can break their backs doing water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  changes. But there also exists this risk which I am mentioning that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  since water is comming directly from tap into the tank, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  little control on what is comming thru it. Worse if the local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  authority just treated the water for chlorine and other things just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  in the morning and we are doing a water change the same evening. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  system I use is very much similar to python but a little extra work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  is put in to age the water in a water butt which does get rid of any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gasses etc. stored in the water due to heavy pressure compression etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "audralee"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <audralee@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I lurk every day and add bits here and there, but I have to reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to Nims comment about the Python. I used to carry pails of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  every time I changed my 5 tanks. With the Python, I Save much time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and pain in my back. I have made a few modifications, though. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  removed all the valves except for the cutoff. I put the end out my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  door into the yard and siphon the water and vacuum about 1/2 the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gravel in one tank, cut the flow off and do the others the same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  When the water is at the level I want it (about 30 percent gone) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fill a 30 gal tote with tap water and add conditioners.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Since I live in FL, the cold water is never really cold, about 75
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  degrees. I attach a small pond pump to the end of the hose and pump
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the fresh water from the tote to the tanks. When the tote is empty, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  unplug the pump and refill the tote again, add conditioners and fill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  more tanks. I've been doing this for years and I never have problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My fish are happy and healthy. I save time, my back is pain free and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  my floor is dry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Nimish Mathur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Christina,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The week I bought my python system and used it for the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  time, I lost my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fleet of Tanganyikan cichlids mysteriously from a 100 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > night. Next day by the evening, the python was in the bin. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  reason is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > still unknown as there was no ammonia/nitrite spike. Water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  temperature was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > also stable. Maybe there had been a PH crash overnight for some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  reason or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the chlorine that got in the water by python had already done the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > which the already present water conditioner/dechlorinator could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  not prevent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Other fish like the barbs and danios and rainbow fish, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  synodontis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > catfish and other cichlids were perfectly happy and well. I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  also lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > some shrimps and snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Never again I will use Python just for the sheer way it works
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Add water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > conditioner/dechlorinator in the main tank and fill it with tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >From: crickit99@a... [mailto:crickit99@a...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Sent: 08 October 2004 15:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was reading all these posts... Am I alone in my use of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Python No
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >Spill & Fill???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I love mine, but of course I only use it on my larger tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >those, I don't age the water at all. But my fish haven't shown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >problems (knock on wood), in fact they seem happier duting and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  after water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >changes every week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6035 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've heard of adding hydrogen peroxide, and there are devices , or at least one that, through a generic/proprietary process, allows oxygen into the water from a container of  concentrated hydrogen peroxide. I'd used it for years with no apparent problems. However, if you've ever placed hydrogen peroxide directly on an open wound you'd have seen evidence of what it can do to organic matter. If a fish swam into a capful or two hydrogen peroxide as it was being directly and undiluted, into the water, he'd be damaged.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I've never tried adding diluted h. peroxide into a tank, I feel relieved the product I found eliminated the possibility of adding it . I'd placed a dead fish into the stuff (I don't remember of it was the concentrate or drugstore stuff, and what you may have seen on a wound, happened to the fishs' carcass..  (the carcass, not the soul).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It will dissolve flesh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Wetzel"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > You probably never noticed it before with your Gourami, but going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the surface for air is as normal for this fish as it is for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Betta.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > These two fish are in the same family and are closely related --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > addition to using their gills, they both breathe air. And, as for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > air; I presume most people use just one airstone, but that's not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > say you can use more. Some people use one long (up to 12")
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > airstone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > or an "airwand" toward the rear of the tank to create a curtain of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > air bubbles. Increased aeration will not put more oxygen in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > water -- extremely little if any oxygen is absorbed into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from the air bubbles. Aeration is used to create a current to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > constantly expose new water to the surface where the oxygen is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > absorbed, giving that body of water an increased opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > absorb oxygen at a faster rate than under normal still conditions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Then too, even under normally aerated conditions, water will hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > only a certain amount of oxygen at any given temperature. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cleaner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the water, the more oxygen the water will hold up until its point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > saturation for that temperature. Likewise, the cooler the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > more oxygen the water will hold as compared to warmer water which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > will not hold as much. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6036 From: Steve Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Making sure....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do not recall anything that would be an indicator for needing salt in with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  your betta, though it should not hurt. While I am a believer in using salt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I generally do not use it as a prophylactic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You'll need to look for bettas carrying the "pla ket" name for short finned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bettas. They are out there, maybe someone might be offering some on Aquabid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They are pretty much a specialty item, not often seen in stores. If you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  in good with your LFS guy, he may see if he can locate some for you, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  otherwise it would be online or through a local club, or the IBC
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (International Betta Congress).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: loreleicosner [mailto:loreleicosner@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Making sure....




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok, I just read that for five gallons, you can add 1 Tablespoon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  salt. For a one gallon tank, I just want to double-check, that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  between 1/2 and 3/4 of a teaspoon, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I cook all the time, so I'm good with measurements, but I'm not taking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chances with Thai. I love that little betta.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have another question. Are there any betta breeders who breed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bettas the way they used to look? I mean, without the fins being so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  long? I was looking at a book about bettas, and they showed some that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  were nice and colorful, but didn't have fins that looked so fragile.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My betta's fins aren't damaged, but these 'older model' bettas were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sooooooo pretty to me. I was just wondering if they are still being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  bred, and where I can find them. I'm not opposed to an online LFS, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  long as they are reputable and ship their fish with care.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I collect fish, I'd like to do it slowly, and with care. Every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish I get has to be one that I've thought a bit about... I don't just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  want to dump a bunch of fish into a tank, and then later wish I'd been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  more patient. Not that setting up a tank quickly is bad... I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  know how I am, personally, lol. I'll set my sights on something, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if I don't do a bit of research before jumping in, I know I change my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mind later. Since fish are live and can be affected by my decisions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd like to be absolutely sure when I make up my mind. My pets are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  part of my family... whether they feel like it or not. *grin*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lorelei








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6037 From: rojeriko Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: any review about Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd like to get any good/bad experience about Hagen aquariums and/or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  stands. I read quite good reviews about Oceanic and All-Glass and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  quite bad things about Perfecto. But I couldn't find any reviews
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  about Hagen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My problem is one LFS carries Perfecto line other one carries Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  line. They have a few Oceanic and All-Glass on display but that's it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (PetsMart brand Top-Fin is also manufactured by Perfecto )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So how does the Hagen line up compared to Oceanic, All-Glass ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perfecto?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks a million,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rojer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6039 From: Julie Date: 10/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You know, I have used hydrogen peroxide on my houseplants, in dilute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  concentrations, but I would be very very hesitant to use it in a fish tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6040 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hydrogen peroxide is deadly if it is drank, so I have no doubt that it would cause problems for the fish.  It can be safely used to clean a used tank to disinfect it before setting up, and I have heard it is useful to disinfect plants.  The key word is disinfect.  I would be very worried about using anything that is a disinfectant in a fish tank with plants present.  Joe's device that apparently causes O to separate from the hydrogen sounds like a safe method, as long as the whole thing doesn't explode, which probably isn't likely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        One last thing, use a quarter.  The guy probably isn't worth a whole dollar! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6041 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this is a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this organic matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will be a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants. Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    survive but delicate plants will die.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not effect us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our internals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen: Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The Device Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic media from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    correctly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6042 From: harry perry Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Sources please!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for any Badis species. Especially Dario Dario. I'm well aware that Dario Dario is considered to be it's own species. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6043 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: advice

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe, have a look at http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is very similar to the product you described but is not as easily available. I managed to get the smallest version of it once which I mentioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 08 October 2004 22:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: advice

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm absolutely sure it was called "oxygenator", but I'm interested to know you know of a different product. I had mostly Hygrophilia in my tanks, and can't say they suffered. Try looking-up 'oxygenator' (maybe inserting something like'fish', or 'aquariums' would help. I don't know if they still make it?) on Google, and I think it was made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticles.<spelling?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe, The product you are mentioning is i think Oxydator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (www.oxydator.de). I have also used this a few times and it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wonderfull product in creating an oxygen rich enviornment but it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be a deathwish for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I've done a bomb with two 75-gallon tanks, (or maybe when I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > had one), but I covered the tanks with plastic bags, so there was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > relatively good seal. (I had a sump under the aquarium. Part of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trickle/spray-bar/DLS system). There's a product (or was)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > called "OXYGENATOR", that's a concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > catalyzes oxygen into the water from a bottle (turned upside-down)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into a special ceramic-dish. Whether or not that was the reason for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > no fish loss, I can't say, but I never had problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a bug bomb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Cheyenne , Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6044 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Sources please!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry, I have a vendor in south of England if it will be any help. They have both the Badis badis and Dario Dario.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 10 October 2004 10:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Sources please!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for any Badis species. Especially Dario Dario. I'm well aware that Dario Dario is considered to be it's own species. Any help would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6045 From: harry perry Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: advice/To Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dear Nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any time I see the name Nim I know I will learn something. We encounter each other over several groups. You never seem to stop helping people. I know and understand your commitment. Thank you very much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe, have a look at http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is very similar to the product you described but is not as easily available. I managed to get the smallest version of it once which I mentioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 08 October 2004 22:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: advice

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm absolutely sure it was called "oxygenator", but I'm interested to know you know of a different product. I had mostly Hygrophilia in my tanks, and can't say they suffered. Try looking-up 'oxygenator' (maybe inserting something like'fish', or 'aquariums' would help. I don't know if they still make it?) on Google, and I think it was made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticles.<spelling?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe, The product you are mentioning is i think Oxydator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (www.oxydator.de). I have also used this a few times and it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wonderfull product in creating an oxygen rich enviornment but it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be a deathwish for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I've done a bomb with two 75-gallon tanks, (or maybe when I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > had one), but I covered the tanks with plastic bags, so there was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > relatively good seal. (I had a sump under the aquarium. Part of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trickle/spray-bar/DLS system). There's a product (or was)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > called "OXYGENATOR", that's a concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > catalyzes oxygen into the water from a bottle (turned upside-down)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into a special ceramic-dish. Whether or not that was the reason for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > no fish loss, I can't say, but I never had problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a bug bomb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Cheyenne , Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6046 From: harry perry Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Sources please!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How can I contact this vendor?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry, I have a vendor in south of England if it will be any help. They have both the Badis badis and Dario Dario.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 10 October 2004 10:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Sources please!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for any Badis species. Especially Dario Dario. I'm well aware that Dario Dario is considered to be it's own species. Any help would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6047 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: advice/To Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Many thanks Harry. Yes we do keep bumping into each other in a few more groups. It’s a small world of the hobby init?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 10 October 2004 10:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: advice/To Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dear Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any time I see the name Nim I know I will learn something. We encounter each other over several groups. You never seem to stop helping people. I know and understand your commitment. Thank you very much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe, have a look at http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is very similar to the product you described but is not as easily available. I managed to get the smallest version of it once which I mentioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: j.pascavage@... [mailto:j.pascavage@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 08 October 2004 22:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: advice

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm absolutely sure it was called "oxygenator", but I'm interested to know you know of a different product. I had mostly Hygrophilia in my tanks, and can't say they suffered. Try looking-up 'oxygenator' (maybe inserting something like'fish', or 'aquariums' would help. I don't know if they still make it?) on Google, and I think it was made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticles.<spelling?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     JoeP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe, The product you are mentioning is i think Oxydator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (www.oxydator.de). I have also used this a few times and it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wonderfull product in creating an oxygen rich enviornment but it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be a deathwish for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I've done a bomb with two 75-gallon tanks, (or maybe when I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > had one), but I covered the tanks with plastic bags, so there was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > relatively good seal. (I had a sump under the aquarium. Part of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trickle/spray-bar/DLS system). There's a product (or was)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > called "OXYGENATOR", that's a concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > catalyzes oxygen into the water from a bottle (turned upside-down)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into a special ceramic-dish. Whether or not that was the reason for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > no fish loss, I can't say, but I never had problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I recently puppy sat a friends dog, which I found out had fleas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Well, long story short, now my dogs have fleas and I am afraid they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are in my house (carpet and such). I am wanting to run a bug bomb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > asap, but I don't know how to handle the three tanks I have. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a 30, 20 and a 10. How do I ensure that the stuff doen't get into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank? Thanks in advance for any and all help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Cheyenne , Wyoming
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6048 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Sources please!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Their website is www.trimar.co.uk  . They don’t have a very good reputation in responding to the e-mails but if you can call them up, they will be able to help. I have used these people previously for shipping and their stock quality is good but not sure if they can ship outside the UK . Worth contacting them though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 10 October 2004 11:31
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Sources please!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How can I contact this vendor?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry, I have a vendor in south of England if it will be any help. They have both the Badis badis and Dario Dario.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: harry perry [mailto:harryfisherman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 10 October 2004 10:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Sources please!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for any Badis species. Especially Dario Dario. I'm well aware that Dario Dario is considered to be it's own species. Any help would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6049 From: Steve Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A quick search of the internet yielded this article:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as a source of dissolved oxygen in COD-degradation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    respirometric experiments"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    M. -H. Tusseau-Vuillemin Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Corresponding Author, F. Lagarde, C. Chauviere and A. Heduit

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cemagref, Unite de Recherche Qualite et Fonctionnement Hydrologique des
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Systemes Aquatiques, parc de Tourvoie, BP 44, F-92 163 Antony cedex, France

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Received 17 November 2000; accepted 27 April 2001 Available online 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    December 2001.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Abstract

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Two different re-oxygenation techniques (aeration and hydrogen peroxide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    addition) were compared in respirometric experiments. As similar results
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    were obtained in both cases, it was concluded that the addition of hydrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    peroxide does not modify the oxygen uptake rate of the biomass, under either
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    endogenous or feeding conditions. It was hypothesized that under those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    experimental conditions (inhibition of nitrification with ATU), hydrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    peroxide alters neither the biomass metabolism nor the biodegradability of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the tested substrates. The oxygen uptake rates obtained with the aeration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    system were often more scattered due to the adhesion of fine bubbles after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the switch off of the aeration. Moreover, the transfer rate of oxygen to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    solution is faster in the case of hydrogen peroxide addition.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately, unless you have a subscription to Science Direct, one cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    access the full text online. It was published in "Water Research", Volume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    36, Issue 3, February 2002, Pages 793-798.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only heard of the use of hydrogen peroxide as a quick fix in an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    emergency situation. Hydrogen peroxide will react with almost anything to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    produce water and oxygen. However, it appears that the process makes it an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oxidant, which gives the results mentioned earlier in this thread with what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it does when applied to a wound or a fish carcass. The article whose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    abstract appears above indicates that the addition of aeration, or more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aeration than you already have, will do the same job insofar as providing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oxygen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If one does a search at http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/, there are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    number of discussions on the use of hydrogen peroxide. The oxidant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    capability of it seems to be the main point of the discussions, as its use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    against cyanobacteria are discussed as well as its use to hatch eggs. not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    much is said regarding its use as an oxygenator.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would suggest that any who with to experiment with hydrogen peroxide do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with caution, and within tanks where you can afford to lose fish and/or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plants. Keep good notes about conditions prior to use, during use, and after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    use.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this is a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this organic matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will be a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants. Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    survive but delicate plants will die.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not effect us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our internals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen: Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The Device Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic media from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    correctly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6050 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb, Yes, the use of hydrogen peroxide is an old (but little known) "remedy" to temporarily increase the oxygen content of the water. This is used most often in situations where for one reason or another the oxygen content of the water falls below the needs of the occupants (fish, etc.) and they are seen gasping at the surface in an effort to get more needed oxygen. This condition happens frequently in ponds when fast growing koi start overcrowding the pond for its size and the water temperature starts climbing in the Summer. The hydrogen peroxide is sprayed on the surface NEAR the fish (not at, or too close to the fish). This is one example of oxygenation through un-natural means, although safe, as opposed to the natural process of water absorbing oxgyen from the atmosphere through the surface as I mentioned in my last post. This will save fish otherwise starving of oxygen, but is only a temporary measure and other methods must be followed to ensure the fishes' well being such as thinning them out, increasing the quality of the water or cooling the water (if possible) so it absorbs more oxygen. Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is unstable as it has an extra molecule of oxgen. This is the reason it fizzes up when you apply it to a cut. It breaks down into water plus free oxygen. Ray   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6051 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark, Keep in mind those German test pilots used 100% undiluted hydrogen peroxide. The medicinal hydrogen peroxide we use as a disinfectant on cuts is only 3% strength. This is not to say it shouldn't be used with care; it of course should be. But it can and has been used for many many years as a temporary oxygen increaser where fish would otherwise die off due to oxygen depletion. As I said in my previous post, SPRAY (not cap-fulls) it at the surface NEAR the fish, but not AT the fish. Use sparingly (this should be only common sense) and only enough to temporarily increase the water's oxygen content, where the fish are seen to digress from the surface indicating they are safe for the time being until you can remedy their situation. I would like to point out never to use a Windex bottle for spraying this or anything else. Windex is HIGHLY toxic to fish any any residue will kill them. It is recommended to not ever even clean your front glass with or use Windex near your aquarium. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6052 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Paul, I have a question for you, hoping you may be more familiar with this subject than I am. As is we all know, high ammonia levels will burn fishes' gill filaments leaving them unable to secure enough oxygen from the water. While salt will negate the toxic effects of ammonia, not everybody knows this or uses it. The Betta is relatively unaffected (from getting enough oxygen) by his gills getting burned by ammonia as, being an Anabantoide (w/labyrinth apparatus), he can breathe atmospheric oxygen (as you have pointed out). Would you know if this gill-burning by the ammonia is permanent or is just temporary damage that will heal in time? I was thinking that if the damage is permanant, the Betta will of course survive but will be relying more on breathing atmospheric oxygen from now on in order to stay alive. Many thanks, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6053 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Do I need new scavengers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are plenty of scavangers that will not kill your fish.  Snails, and Shrimp are a good example.  I have Nerite Snails, Ramshorn snails, amano shrimp and another similar kind of shrimp. These animals will eat any food that makes it to the bottom of the tank, eat algae and also eat any fish that die.  Dead fish can be a major source of amona. The draw back is you may not notice they died.   I can also recommend Kooly loaches which are a lot of fun to watch too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Andreas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6054 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Switching tanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i beleive that the burns are temporary and will heal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    quick;ly if teh fish survives the spike. the burns
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are not as common as the fish just not eing able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cope with the ammonia permiating its body. i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    also found taht if you use a product like stress zyme
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which is live bacteria and electrolytes, the fish have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    no problems living through the cycle. the live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bacteria can be used everyother day through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ammonia spike for relatively cheap. this is why ilove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    stress zyme specifically. it is about 20.00 to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    960 gallons, so it does not cost much, and it is 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    non-harmful. i have not seen an unsuccessful fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cycle with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Paul, I have a question for you, hoping you may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more familiar with this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > subject than I am. As is we all know, high ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > levels will burn fishes' gill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filaments leaving them unable to secure enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > oxygen from the water. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > salt will negate the toxic effects of ammonia, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > everybody knows this or uses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it. The Betta is relatively unaffected (from getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > enough oxygen) by his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gills getting burned by ammonia as, being an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Anabantoide (w/labyrinth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > apparatus), he can breathe atmospheric oxygen (as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you have pointed out). Would you know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > if this gill-burning by the ammonia is permanent or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is just temporary damage
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that will heal in time? I was thinking that if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > damage is permanant, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Betta will of course survive but will be relying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more on breathing atmospheric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > oxygen from now on in order to stay alive. Many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > thanks, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6055 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset ooxygenator-oxydator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Tried looking for 'oxygenator' and eventually found the product I used when I kept fish. It was a plastic bottle with a screw-on lid. Had a pinhole in center-top, and when filled with a very small, apparently, predominantly ceramic cylinder, and concentrated hydrogen peroxide, was placed, inverted, into a circular (trapezoidal-side profile) ceramic dish. The dish had a small slit and hollow, opposite the pinhole in the bottle. Asilicone gel in that location held the bottle cap snug, and a suction cup, super-glued to the bottle-side, held the bottle to the aquarium side. The dish was placed on the gravel. The catalyst apparently separated oxygen from solution and allowed oxygen to be transferred though the pinhole into the ceramic-diffuser.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is the only place I could find that carries it. It carries the product, and hydrogen peroxide concentrate. I never had a problem with the stuff in regards to my 20-plus Corydoras, Otos, Plattys, plants, etc. However 'one' of the plastic bottles began to degrade/biodegrade, outside the aquarium, and I thought of replacing the plastic with glass. Only one of the several different size bottles evidenced deterioration, which makes me wonder why? I suppose you saw the documentary that theorizes that the Russian Submarine, "Kursk" sank because of the use of hydrogen peroxide as part of torpedo propulsion?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this is a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this organic matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will be a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants. Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > survive but delicate plants will die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not effect us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our internals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen: Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The Device Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic media from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6056 From: red-eye Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is tannic acid that changes the color  & is harmless



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    At 10:53 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i don't think that's the case at all. i have two large pieces of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    driftwood in my tank, one for almost a year, one for at least 6 months,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and my water is crystal clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    On Oct 8, 2004, at 9:35 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > any wood in the tank will discolor it somewhat.  most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > days ago and that's when all of this started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > yesterday when I do partial water changes the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > but the water doesn't look brown, just very cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > If the filter was very dirty, it could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > curious about how often you did water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > months. A filter should never be so dirty that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > color when you remove it. It should not cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > use it again. It started turning the water brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > >                    Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > cycle started all over again. Do you think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > caused it? I really don't want to have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > it just finished, so I think I will go with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > large water change, feeding the filter and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > Something poisonous exist in the tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > the best procedure forward will be to restart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > all over again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > scratch cleaning the gravel, ornaments and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > filter along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > tank. Another procedure could be to do a 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > water change and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > feeding the filter with fishfood to keep it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > matured. wait for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > and add in some hardy fish like rasboras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > barbs, tetras etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > that cherry barbs and gold barbs to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > most peaceful and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > perfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > community fish). Many tetras can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > vicious then tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > be careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > Second possibility is that the fish were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > already sick when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > them and hence perished. This means that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > disease will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > still be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > the tank and the above method will still work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > for a few weeks feeding the filter meanwhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > to keep it cycled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > any fish based pathogens will die unless they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > are something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > cysts etc. and can remain dormant for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > All depends what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > had. Cleaning the tank entirly will obviously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > rid these but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > rid the beneficial bacteria... hence a fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > cycle again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > Can you confirm one thing Erin. Did you by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > anychance use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > cycle this tank? I asked you this question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > before as well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > you missed it. You also have another tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > thats running that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > cycled with Ammonia??? or is it the same tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > Please clarify
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > > Ok, my pictures of my tank are up under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > "ErinCloudyTank" let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > > what you think should be done. Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  > > > > > Erin
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6057 From: red-eye Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Having lots of reptiles I can assure you the herp folks take more precautions that fish folk. Most bake to insure all bacteria & tiny tiny critters are dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    At 09:15 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    drift wood is generally meant to be used in reptile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tanks and is probably not cleaned or stored as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > It had a little tag on it with the company and all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that said African
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > driftwood. I don't know if that's the problem, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it's been in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank ever since I set it up about 2 months ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > There are so many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > factors that could've gone wrong, so I'm starting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get confused!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks for the input though, it's something to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > consider,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >    Don't get me wrong, but unless you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > absolutely establish the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sure of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > expert members who are very aware of the natures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wood they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > precautions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > taken using them, (proper respirators, dust-blowers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to pull the dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > worse than sick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there's always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that chance. The officials in the United States,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > from what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > read, have'nt established the range of dangers from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > breathing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > something as common as pine-dust from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sawing/sanding, 'tho they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > able to ascertain how dangerous some southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hemisphere wood is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Particular mention was made of some woods from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ones they are. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > know some people on this list have issued advice on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > how to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > right or wrong they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if thet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can't confirm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the history of the wood in question, and you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > verify it, it's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >                          JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Mine is african driftwood from a local store, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > was kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > (8.00) for a small piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > -- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > any wood in the tank will discolor it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > of the root woods 9except african) turns water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like drift
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > --- Erin wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > water brown at all. I think it's more cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I went
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > days ago and that's when all of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > yesterday when I do partial water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > of parasites, or who knows what else. Youy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > curious about how often you did water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > months. A filter should never be so dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > color when you remove it. It should not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > use it again. It started turning the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > -------------- Original message
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally) that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > re-cycle the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > it just finished, so I think I will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > option of doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > large water change, feeding the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > adding a few new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > fish to see what happens. Maybe it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > I cleaned the filter? Do you think that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > junk that came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > possibly killed the fish? Thanks for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > "Nimish"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > The tanl looks really fine with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > of a bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > which is not harmful to fish in any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > way. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > cloudyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > however
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > could be due to any chemicals as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > 2 possibilities:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > > Something poisonous exist in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank/water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > that killed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    === message truncated ===



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6058 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is quite interesting, since vets recommend giving a dog some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hydrogen peroxide to cause them to vomit, if needed. I used it once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    when one of my dogs got ahold of numerous heartworm pills. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    certainly worked like a charm...he was puking green foam within a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    couple of minutes (the pills were green).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this organic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > survive but delicate plants will die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not effect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    internals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The Device
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6059 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There are a lot of other uses of Hydrogen peroxide. Most commonly it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    storage solution for contact lenses and used as a hair bleach. It is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    used in Hydroponics to provide a oxygen rich environment in the soil and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lately is a major constituent of the new toilet bleach and has replaced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chlorine (also called oxy-bleach).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chemically, Hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate work in a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    similar manner releasing the nascent oxygen they have in excess and hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    provide a oxygen rich environment. Infact this can be so rich in oxygen that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it chemically burns any oxidizable material and hance should he used with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    caution. So if you do think about using it in any way (ideal for ponds where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chances of oxygen dead spots occur more frequently then a small aquarium)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    then be carefull and do not dose anything more then 1ml of 3.5% solution per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gallon. In aquarium, it is not really needed unless some chronic issues are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    happening e.g.: Lack of oxygen due to temperature increase, heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    overstocking, too much bacterial activity in the tank etc. also possibly CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pumping and some medications. But if nothing is wrong: Don't try to fix it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Sent: 10 October 2004 18:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >This is quite interesting, since vets recommend giving a dog some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >hydrogen peroxide to cause them to vomit, if needed. I used it once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >when one of my dogs got ahold of numerous heartworm pills. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >certainly worked like a charm...he was puking green foam within a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >couple of minutes (the pills were green).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this organic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> survive but delicate plants will die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not effect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >internals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The Device
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts" said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6060 From: jim Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    someone mentioned loaches, khuli, in particular... i want some ,,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone with a supplier who can provide the banded variety ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks .... Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6061 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Patrick, a quarter, good one (LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I still wouldn't use it but that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The fewer the chemicals used in a closed system the more likely the outcome would be favorable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My main concern wasn't the slime coat, nor the plants but more about the delicacy of the fishes gills which we all know are very sensitive just as our own lungs are.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the levels used for this exercise were very low. I just get images of someone thinking "Well a little is ok so allot is great!!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And soon the tank is dead. Hydrogen peroxide is also a great antibiotic but we depend on nitrifying bacteria to cycle some wastes from the water and the possible loss of this bacteria would be most undesirable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 8:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very Upset

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hydrogen peroxide is deadly if it is drank, so I have no doubt that it would cause problems for the fish.  It can be safely used to clean a used tank to disinfect it before setting up, and I have heard it is useful to disinfect plants.  The key word is disinfect.  I would be very worried about using anything that is a disinfectant in a fish tank with plants present.  Joe's device that apparently causes O to separate from the hydrogen sounds like a safe method, as long as the whole thing doesn't explode, which probably isn't likely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          One last thing, use a quarter.  The guy probably isn't worth a whole dollar! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6062 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you everyone for setting an acceptable level / dosage to be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Considering the Damage caused by the wrong application I thought it was prudent to state it is not worth attempting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I know there are levels for algaecide that work also but many times using the right dose still seems to kill everything in the tank except the algae .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyways, thanks again for setting me straight on this method and do hope it works for those who use it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Most respectfully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 1:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mark, Keep in mind those German test pilots used 100% undiluted hydrogen peroxide. The medicinal hydrogen peroxide we use as a disinfectant on cuts is only 3% strength. This is not to say it shouldn't be used with care; it of course should be. But it can and has been used for many many years as a temporary oxygen increaser where fish would otherwise die off due to oxygen depletion. As I said in my previous post, SPRAY (not cap-fulls) it at the surface NEAR the fish, but not AT the fish. Use sparingly (this should be only common sense) and only enough to temporarily increase the water's oxygen content, where the fish are seen to digress from the surface indicating they are safe for the time being until you can remedy their situation. I would like to point out never to use a Windex bottle for spraying this or anything else. Windex is HIGHLY toxic to fish any any residue will kill them. It is recommended to not ever even clean your fron

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6063 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for all the information, but actually the guy who suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this did so as a recommendation for putting the hydrogen peroxide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      into the plastic bags and water with PLANTS. I didn't do it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the plants are doing great anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > There are a lot of other uses of Hydrogen peroxide. Most commonly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > storage solution for contact lenses and used as a hair bleach. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > used in Hydroponics to provide a oxygen rich environment in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      soil and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > lately is a major constituent of the new toilet bleach and has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      replaced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > chlorine (also called oxy-bleach).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chemically, Hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate work in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > similar manner releasing the nascent oxygen they have in excess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > provide a oxygen rich environment. Infact this can be so rich in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      oxygen that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it chemically burns any oxidizable material and hance should he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      used with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > caution. So if you do think about using it in any way (ideal for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ponds where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > chances of oxygen dead spots occur more frequently then a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquarium)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > then be carefull and do not dose anything more then 1ml of 3.5%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      solution per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gallon. In aquarium, it is not really needed unless some chronic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      issues are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > happening e.g.: Lack of oxygen due to temperature increase, heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > overstocking, too much bacterial activity in the tank etc. also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      possibly CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pumping and some medications. But if nothing is wrong: Don't try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to fix it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Sent: 10 October 2004 18:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >This is quite interesting, since vets recommend giving a dog some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >hydrogen peroxide to cause them to vomit, if needed. I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >when one of my dogs got ahold of numerous heartworm pills. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >certainly worked like a charm...he was puking green foam within a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >couple of minutes (the pills were green).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      organic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> survive but delicate plants will die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      effect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >internals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Device
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6064 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ewww. Any reason why add hydrogen peroxide to fish bags? There are other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      oxygen tablets available for fish bags that are going to be closed for more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then a few hours. These are slow oxygen releasing tablets and are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      efficient. Though I don't know the chemistry behind this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 10 October 2004 19:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Thanks for all the information, but actually the guy who suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >this did so as a recommendation for putting the hydrogen peroxide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >into the plastic bags and water with PLANTS. I didn't do it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the plants are doing great anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> There are a lot of other uses of Hydrogen peroxide. Most commonly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> storage solution for contact lenses and used as a hair bleach. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> used in Hydroponics to provide a oxygen rich environment in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >soil and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> lately is a major constituent of the new toilet bleach and has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >replaced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> chlorine (also called oxy-bleach).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Chemically, Hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate work in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> similar manner releasing the nascent oxygen they have in excess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >and hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> provide a oxygen rich environment. Infact this can be so rich in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >oxygen that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> it chemically burns any oxidizable material and hance should he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >used with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> caution. So if you do think about using it in any way (ideal for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >ponds where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> chances of oxygen dead spots occur more frequently then a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >aquarium)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> then be carefull and do not dose anything more then 1ml of 3.5%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >solution per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> gallon. In aquarium, it is not really needed unless some chronic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >issues are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> happening e.g.: Lack of oxygen due to temperature increase, heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> overstocking, too much bacterial activity in the tank etc. also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >possibly CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> pumping and some medications. But if nothing is wrong: Don't try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >to fix it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Sent: 10 October 2004 18:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >This is quite interesting, since vets recommend giving a dog some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >hydrogen peroxide to cause them to vomit, if needed. I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >when one of my dogs got ahold of numerous heartworm pills. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >certainly worked like a charm...he was puking green foam within a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >couple of minutes (the pills were green).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >organic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> survive but delicate plants will die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >effect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >internals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Device
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6065 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      jim, where are you located? they're available all over where i live.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Oct 10, 2004, at 2:25 PM, jim wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > someone mentioned  loaches, khuli, in particular... i want some ,,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anyone with a supplier who can provide the banded variety ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks .... Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6066 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: New cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I bought a new cory cat I found him at a pet store 3 hours away so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      he had a long trip home in the bag but it's been a week and he still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      looks great. I uploaded pictures in the folder Melanie he is the 2nd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cory cat in the first picture with the black line on his eye and top
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fin. Let me know what you guys think, he's also in love with my bronze
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cory they swim and rub against each other, but the poor peppered one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is still a loner hanging out alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6067 From: Steve Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And, even better, there are "breathable" bags on the market that allow for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gaseous exchange through the plastic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ewww. Any reason why add hydrogen peroxide to fish bags? There are other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      oxygen tablets available for fish bags that are going to be closed for more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      then a few hours. These are slow oxygen releasing tablets and are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      efficient. Though I don't know the chemistry behind this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 10 October 2004 19:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Thanks for all the information, but actually the guy who suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >this did so as a recommendation for putting the hydrogen peroxide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >into the plastic bags and water with PLANTS. I didn't do it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the plants are doing great anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> There are a lot of other uses of Hydrogen peroxide. Most commonly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> storage solution for contact lenses and used as a hair bleach. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> used in Hydroponics to provide a oxygen rich environment in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >soil and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> lately is a major constituent of the new toilet bleach and has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >replaced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> chlorine (also called oxy-bleach).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Chemically, Hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate work in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> similar manner releasing the nascent oxygen they have in excess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >and hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> provide a oxygen rich environment. Infact this can be so rich in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >oxygen that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> it chemically burns any oxidizable material and hance should he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >used with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> caution. So if you do think about using it in any way (ideal for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >ponds where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> chances of oxygen dead spots occur more frequently then a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >aquarium)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> then be carefull and do not dose anything more then 1ml of 3.5%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >solution per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> gallon. In aquarium, it is not really needed unless some chronic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >issues are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> happening e.g.: Lack of oxygen due to temperature increase, heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> overstocking, too much bacterial activity in the tank etc. also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >possibly CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> pumping and some medications. But if nothing is wrong: Don't try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >to fix it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Sent: 10 October 2004 18:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >This is quite interesting, since vets recommend giving a dog some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >hydrogen peroxide to cause them to vomit, if needed. I used it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >when one of my dogs got ahold of numerous heartworm pills. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >certainly worked like a charm...he was puking green foam within a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >couple of minutes (the pills were green).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> I have used Hydrogen peroxide in my tanks a few times but this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> very low concentration. 1ml of 3.5% wv solution per gallon. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >did I use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> it? To get rid of algae. Hydrogen peroxide is a very active
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >oxidizing agent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> and will oxidize organic matter very quickly. Most of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >organic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >matter is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Algae, Plants, Bacteria, Organic dissolved chemicals. At such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> concentration it will not have an effect on fish as there will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> other things available for it to oxidize and the slime coat of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> probably protects them. But this is like poison for live plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Some may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> survive but delicate plants will die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Hydrogen peroxide when concentrated is dangerous and this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> poisonous for humans. Such low levels of dilution will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >effect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >us as it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> works against the acids (enzymes) and when drinking it, it's the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >enzymes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> that will neutralize it first before it begins to oxidize our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >internals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> As with regards to Hydrogen peroxide as a good source of oxygen:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Adding it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> directly to the water will not benefit from any thing. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Device
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Joe was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> talking about and I tried to find as oxygenator, I found as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >oxydator on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> http://www.oxydator.de/oxydate3.htm . This is a glass/plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >bottle filled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> with hydrogen peroxide and inverted in a semi porous ceramic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >media
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> which the hydrogen peroxide decomposes into nascent oxygen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> molecules. This probably will oxygenate the water a lot but as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> earlier that it had an adverse effect on plants. Maybe I did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >Sent: 10 October 2004 01:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Very Upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >When I was buying some aquarium plants, one of the "experts"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >that if you put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >help with the oxygen levels. Have any of you heard this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >before??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6068 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any pet store in ca can get them

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- jim <alls2@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > someone mentioned loaches, khuli, in particular...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i want some ,,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anyone with a supplier who can provide the banded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > variety ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks .... Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6069 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: pics of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the actual keepers yes, bu the vendors no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- red-eye <r_ohle@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Having lots of reptiles I can assure you the herp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > folks take more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > precautions that fish folk. Most bake to insure all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bacteria & tiny tiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > critters are dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > At 09:15 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >drift wood is generally meant to be used in reptile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >tanks and is probably not cleaned or stored as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >--- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > It had a little tag on it with the company and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that said African
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > driftwood. I don't know if that's the problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it's been in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank ever since I set it up about 2 months ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > There are so many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > factors that could've gone wrong, so I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > starting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > get confused!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Thanks for the input though, it's something to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > consider,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Don't get me wrong, but unless you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > absolutely establish the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > nature/name of the wood you're using, you can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > sure of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > buy for driftwood. I belong to a ship-model club
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > with some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > expert members who are very aware of the natures
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wood they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > using. Some woods are deadly to humans, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > precautions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > taken using them, (proper respirators,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dust-blowers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > to pull the dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > into a safe containment, etc.), a big man can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > worse than sick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I'm not saying your driftwood is the culprit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > there's always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that chance. The officials in the United States,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > from what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > read, have'nt established the range of dangers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > breathing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > something as common as pine-dust from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > sawing/sanding, 'tho they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > able to ascertain how dangerous some southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > hemisphere wood is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Particular mention was made of some woods from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > hemisphere, and I wish to God I remembered which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > ones they are. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > know some people on this list have issued advice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > how to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > driftwood, but other than that, I don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > right or wrong they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > are. As far as buying driftwood from an LFS, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > thet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > can't confirm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the history of the wood in question, and you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > verify it, it's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > gamble.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > Mine is african driftwood from a local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > store, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > was kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > (8.00) for a small piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > -- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > any wood in the tank will discolor it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > somewhat. most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > of the root woods 9except african) turns
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > slightly yellow, and some do brown, like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > drift
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > --- Erin wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > I got the driftwood from a LFS, Petland,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > didn't turn the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > water brown at all. I think it's more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > than it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > is brown. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > tank is only about 2 months old, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > went
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > it off a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > days ago and that's when all of this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > started. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > yesterday when I do partial water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > looks brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > when I dump it into the tub..is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > odd? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > thought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > it was abnormal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > but the water doesn't look brown, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > If the filter was very dirty, it could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > accomodated colonies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > of parasites, or who knows what else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Youy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > only 5 or six
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > months old, and fish from LFS's often
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > parasites/diseases. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > curious about how often you did water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > those 5 or 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > months. A filter should never be so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > dirty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > change water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > color when you remove it. It should not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > cloud water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > if you remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > it. Did you mention how-many/which kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > filters you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > have? I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > bought "aquarium-safe-driftwood" from an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > LFS, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > don't think I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > use it again. It started turning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > brown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > Where did you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > > No, I didn't use ammonia to cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > I did add Fritz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > > turbo, which worked until I added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > barbs and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > > cycle started all over again. Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > think maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > when I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > > filter all of the crap (literally)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > got in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > the water may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > > > > > > caused it? I really don't want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6070 From: Captain Kidd Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Live or Frozen Food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just wonder what others are doing on this?  I try one or two times a week to give my fish Frozen food.  Should it be less or more.  It's really doesn't cost that much.  Something like $5 for 30 cubes I think it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What about live food, what is good and what's not?  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6071 From: paul helms Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      most frozen foods are certified bacteria and parasote
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      free as they are iqf, while anything live runs the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      risk of the afore mentioned. frozen is always good,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but make sure that you thaw it in cold water or tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water (never hot) and make sure that it is not cold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      when fed as it can lead to digestion problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just wonder what others are doing on this? I try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > one or two times a week to give my fish Frozen food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Should it be less or more. It's really doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cost that much. Something like $5 for 30 cubes I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > think it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What about live food, what is good and what's not?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Robb




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6072 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: New cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your new Cory looks just like the four that I have. I love 'em, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will get more like them the next time I see any, now that I've got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      my 25 gallon tank up 'n running! From everything I'm reading,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cories like to be in groups, so you might think about bringing home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a few more! As for the "long trip home", remember they are probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in those bags much longer when they are shipped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      :~0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "mommy2acdhsurvivor"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I bought a new cory cat I found him at a pet store 3 hours away
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > he had a long trip home in the bag but it's been a week and he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > looks great. I uploaded pictures in the folder Melanie he is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2nd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cory cat in the first picture with the black line on his eye and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      top
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fin. Let me know what you guys think, he's also in love with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bronze
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cory they swim and rub against each other, but the poor peppered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is still a loner hanging out alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6073 From: Erin Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every time I empty out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water when doing a water change I noticed the water is a brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      color. Also when looking at the tank, the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood has been in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the water looking a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      little cloudy right now, could the color be caused by the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the water was messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6074 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ive been diong the same thing since i added in killifish and they need bloodworms.. i have been diong them and brine shrimp which i read were good for most fish.. also read these helps their over coats... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just wonder what others are doing on this?  I try one or two times a week to give my fish Frozen food.  Should it be less or more.  It's really doesn't cost that much.  Something like $5 for 30 cubes I think it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What about live food, what is good and what's not?  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6075 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      guaranteed that the color is caused by the drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it does not cause cloudiness, but does cause a yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to brown tint, much like that of peat, only it occurs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      more gradually. any time you add wood to the tank it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      should be soaked in clean water until it leaches out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and discolors the still water (usually 5-7 days, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      repeated until the water stays clear. it usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      takes 2 weeks with two water changes after the initial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      soak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > time I empty out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water when doing a water change I noticed the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is a brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > color. Also when looking at the tank, the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > has been in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water looking a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > little cloudy right now, could the color be caused
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > by the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water was messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6076 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: New cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      only differenece on the long trip is that not all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquariums fill the bag with pure oxygen which the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shippers do, and the fish are shipped tightly packed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in insulated dark boxes to reduce stress and sloshing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Your new Cory looks just like the four that I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I love 'em, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will get more like them the next time I see any, now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I've got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > my 25 gallon tank up 'n running! From everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm reading,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Cories like to be in groups, so you might think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > about bringing home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a few more! As for the "long trip home", remember
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they are probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in those bags much longer when they are shipped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > :~0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "mommy2acdhsurvivor"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I bought a new cory cat I found him at a pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > store 3 hours away
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > he had a long trip home in the bag but it's been a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > week and he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > looks great. I uploaded pictures in the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Melanie he is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 2nd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cory cat in the first picture with the black line
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > on his eye and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > top
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > fin. Let me know what you guys think, he's also in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > love with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bronze
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > cory they swim and rub against each other, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > poor peppered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is still a loner hanging out alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6077 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just to add on. Some types of wood also take months to stop leeching their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      colour. I have had the so called "African bog wood" in a 110 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that kept leeching the colour for over 6 months until it eventually went
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      into my garage. It was probably a bad stock and the LFS also confirmed that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they were horrible but harmless to fish. The leeching was so bad that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water looked almost like urin but no smell :P.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 11 October 2004 08:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >guaranteed that the color is caused by the drift wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it does not cause cloudiness, but does cause a yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >to brown tint, much like that of peat, only it occurs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >more gradually. any time you add wood to the tank it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >should be soaked in clean water until it leaches out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >and discolors the still water (usually 5-7 days, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >repeated until the water stays clear. it usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >takes 2 weeks with two water changes after the initial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >soak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- Erin <utacutie@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> time I empty out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> water when doing a water change I noticed the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> is a brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> color. Also when looking at the tank, the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> has been in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> water looking a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> little cloudy right now, could the color be caused
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> by the driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> water was messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6078 From: red-eye Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very upset...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 09:25 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I was once a believer that air stones increase O2 levels in the tank.  I researched the issue, and looked at the science and I can say that the science does not support the idea that an air stone can raise O2 levels.  There is 0 chance of ever getting O2 levels in the tank above those of the atmosphere unless you are using O2 injection (similar to CO2 injection), which would be a bad and dangerous idea.  The key to gas exchange is water movement, and power filters create enough movement to take care of the levels of O2 in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6079 From: secretlaw Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The water is caused by the driftwood. I know for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One thing u can try, just boiled the driftwood for awhile. The color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      should be gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The cloudy water will be cleared off when the bacteria starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      working.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every time I empty out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water when doing a water change I noticed the water is a brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > color. Also when looking at the tank, the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood has been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the water looking a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > little cloudy right now, could the color be caused by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the water was messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6080 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      some fishies like to play in bubbles, haven't you see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the movie???????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- red-eye <r_ohle@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > At 09:25 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I was once a believer that air stones increase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > O2 levels in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > tank. I researched the issue, and looked at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > science and I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > that the science does not support the idea that an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > air stone can raise O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > levels. There is 0 chance of ever getting O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > levels in the tank above
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > those of the atmosphere unless you are using O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > injection (similar to CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > injection), which would be a bad and dangerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > idea. The key to gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > exchange is water movement, and power filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > create enough movement to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > take care of the levels of O2 in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml>http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://www.sulcata-station.org>http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6081 From: Nimish Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Airstones however help dissipate CO2 which is taking up the space in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the water that could have been taken by O2. I agree that airstones do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      not do much in a tank that is well balanced but in circumstances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      where the CO2 levels in the water can get to choking levels for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish, Airstones are better then nothing in this case. They help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      circulate a bit of water on the surface, remove a bit of dissolved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      CO2, Fine airstones also allow more gasseous exchange between the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      slow rising bubbles and the water helping it absorb a bit of oxygen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Even though it is a Bit.. it is not zero.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And yes, we are not talking about a situation where water will have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      O2 levels more then the atmosphere. we are talking about use of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      airstones where the levels of oxygen in water are much lower then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      saturation point as compared to the atmosphere created by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish/plant/bacterial respiration etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ps: And I still believe that powerheads do a much better job areating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the water then airstones.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > some fishies like to play in bubbles, haven't you see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the movie???????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- red-eye <r_ohle@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > At 09:25 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I was once a believer that air stones increase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > O2 levels in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > tank. I researched the issue, and looked at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > science and I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > that the science does not support the idea that an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > air stone can raise O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > levels. There is 0 chance of ever getting O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > levels in the tank above
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > those of the atmosphere unless you are using O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > injection (similar to CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > injection), which would be a bad and dangerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > idea. The key to gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > exchange is water movement, and power filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > create enough movement to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > take care of the levels of O2 in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml>http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      .shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://www.sulcata-station.org>http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps>http://groups.yahoo.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6082 From: shortlid Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Scissor Tails geting there tails SNIPED!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well my 30-gal community tank has calmed down a bit now and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      seems dead on pretty much all the time. I have the one 2 ½" Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gourmi, one Black Molly, three Black Tetras, three 2" Rainbows, three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Danios, two Cherry Barbs, one 2" Pleco, one 2" Cory, and three 1"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Scissors Tails. Well something in my tank put a SNIP in one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Scissors Tails tails! Now he only has the upper part of his tail?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems to be fine other wise. Is three a big enough group or should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      add a few more Scissors Tails? The only thing is I have heard that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the Svissor Tails will get bigger and my 30 gal. is about a max.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      capacity now?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6083 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they do nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- Nimish <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Airstones however help dissipate CO2 which is taking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > up the space in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the water that could have been taken by O2. I agree
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that airstones do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not do much in a tank that is well balanced but in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > circumstances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > where the CO2 levels in the water can get to choking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > levels for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish, Airstones are better then nothing in this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > case. They help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > circulate a bit of water on the surface, remove a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bit of dissolved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > CO2, Fine airstones also allow more gasseous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > exchange between the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > slow rising bubbles and the water helping it absorb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a bit of oxygen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Even though it is a Bit.. it is not zero.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > And yes, we are not talking about a situation where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > water will have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > O2 levels more then the atmosphere. we are talking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > about use of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > airstones where the levels of oxygen in water are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > much lower then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > saturation point as compared to the atmosphere
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > created by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish/plant/bacterial respiration etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ps: And I still believe that powerheads do a much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > better job areating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the water then airstones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > some fishies like to play in bubbles, haven't you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the movie???????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- red-eye <r_ohle@p...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Any redeeming facts about th use of an air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > At 09:25 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I was once a believer that air stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > increase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > O2 levels in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > tank. I researched the issue, and looked at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > science and I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > that the science does not support the idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > air stone can raise O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > levels. There is 0 chance of ever getting O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > levels in the tank above
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > those of the atmosphere unless you are using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > injection (similar to CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > injection), which would be a bad and dangerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > idea. The key to gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > exchange is water movement, and power filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > create enough movement to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > take care of the levels of O2 in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml>http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > .shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6084 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have frozen brine shrimp, krill, bloodworms, tubifex, and white mosquito larvae (glassworms). I try to feed some frozen at one meal every other day. When possible, I buy live bloodworms and brine shrimp. I know some people who will only feed frozen or live foods to their fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just wonder what others are doing on this?  I try one or two times a week to give my fish Frozen food.  Should it be less or more.  It's really doesn't cost that much.  Something like $5 for 30 cubes I think it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What about live food, what is good and what's not?  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6085 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Live or Frozen Food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I feed my fish a variety of foods.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As puffers won't eat flakes (well, it's the exception at the very least), I feed mine frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, and snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The rest of my fish get a variety of flakes and the frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All my fish seem to snack on ghost shrimp as well, LoL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No one sells live food locally, but I am planning on ordering some cultures. Crickets seem to be a good food for puffers as well, so I may try that... But I like crickets, so I may feel bad about that one... LoL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6086 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Kuhlis are not necessarily easy to find in all areas. The November issue of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Aquarium Fish Magazine has couple columns on them. Apparently the fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      arriving to dealers in poor shape and their survival rate has been low, so a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lot of dealers have stopped ordering them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are a few sites online that sell kuhlis:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://store.yahoo.com/fish2u/sckl.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1072&TopCatId=885
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (black only)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.aquariumstuffers.com/products/list.cfm?CategoryID=35

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You could also try www.aquabid.com


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim" <alls2@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > someone mentioned loaches, khuli, in particular... i want some ,,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > anyone with a supplier who can provide the banded variety ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks .... Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6087 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, in a non-filtered tank, or a very deep tank, they do increase water movement and gas exchange.  They are mostly for decoration in most tanks.  And like Paul implied, there is always one fish that is obsessed with bubbles.  "Bubbles, bubbles, my bubbles" they say.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6088 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Red Eye, You apparently don't read all the posts on this group. On !0/9/2004, at 7:01am (message #6031 at the Group site), I outlined the use and benefits of airstones. While some (very little) oxygen is absorbed into the water directly from the air bubbles, aeration creates a current, constantly exposing a new layer of water to the surface where gases are exchanged, thus speeding up this process. Not only is oxygen absorbed at a faster rate because of the constant turn-over, but CO2 is also dissipated at a faster rate as Nim brought out. And yes, fishes actually do like to play in the bubbles as Paul said. Please go back and read Saturday's post on this same subject ("Very Upset"). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6089 From: red-eye Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks  - The reason I asked is that I do have an UG filter as well as a cannister filter. I run the UG  on a power head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          red-eye




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          At 07:56 AM 10/11/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, in a non-filtered tank, or a very deep tank, they do increase water movement and gas exchange.  They are mostly for decoration in most tanks.  And like Paul implied, there is always one fish that is obsessed with bubbles.  "Bubbles, bubbles, my bubbles" they say.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          60f926.gif 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6090 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          certainly. airstones cause a disturbance of the surface and allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gasses to dissipate and cause gas exchange. that's their purpose and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they serve it well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Oct 11, 2004, at 8:27 AM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > At 09:25 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >     I was once a believer that air stones increase O2 levels in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank.  I researched the issue, and looked at the science and I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that the science does not support the idea that an air stone can raise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > O2 levels.  There is 0 chance of ever getting O2 levels in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > above those of the atmosphere unless you are using O2 injection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (similar to CO2 injection), which would be a bad and dangerous idea. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > The key to gas exchange is water movement, and power filters create
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > enough movement to take care of the levels of O2 in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > red-eye
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6091 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Red-eye,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            IMO/E a UGF performs the best with airline instead of powerheads. The core purpose of a UGF is biological and a slow flow rate ensures that it does not get clogged up and continues to function well. Using a powerhead, it will get clogged up much faster causing anaerobic spots which are obviously not a good idea. Some people may differ with me on this but again many people differ on the use of UGF in whole.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: red-eye [mailto:r_ohle@pacbell.net]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 11 October 2004 16:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very upset...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks  - The reason I asked is that I do have an UG filter as well as a cannister filter. I run the UG  on a power head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At 07:56 AM 10/11/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, in a non-filtered tank, or a very deep tank, they do increase water movement and gas exchange.  They are mostly for decoration in most tanks.  And like Paul implied, there is always one fish that is obsessed with bubbles.  "Bubbles, bubbles, my bubbles" they say.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            60f926.gif 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6092 From: Erin Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does the brownish color hurt the fish at all?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "secretlaw"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <secretlaw@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The water is caused by the driftwood. I know for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > One thing u can try, just boiled the driftwood for awhile. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > should be gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The cloudy water will be cleared off when the bacteria starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > working.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every time I empty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water when doing a water change I noticed the water is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > color. Also when looking at the tank, the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood has been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the water looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > little cloudy right now, could the color be caused by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6093 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not directing this at you, this is just some statements I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            going to make. I'm using your quote as a starting point for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            statements. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > certainly. airstones cause a disturbance of the surface and allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gasses to dissipate and cause gas exchange. that's their purpose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they serve it well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > amalthea

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But almost any filter will do this so much better that an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            airstone should only be 'needed' if there is really something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            terrible going on, like having to raise temperatures above 83°F to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            treat diseases/parasites. Filters make the disturbance of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with much more power, like a power head would make, while also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            drawing water from lower levels of the tank through the filter to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the top level. Power filters that hang on the back of the tank have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a benefit that only sumps have and only sumps do better at. Power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filters almost always have open boxes, increasing surface area by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the lenght times width of that opening.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Like I said a few days ago, I was once a strong believer that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            airstones have a big effect in gas exchange because of the bubbles.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The science I have seen just doesn't support it. The bubbles make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it to the top of the water with very little gas exchange. The gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            exchange almost completely takes place at the surface even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bubbles. Airstones are for decoration or powering filters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6094 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It lowers pH (not the color but the chemicals causing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            color), but it is also very good stuff to have in a tank if you keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tetras or South American Cichlids.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Does the brownish color hurt the fish at all?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6095 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i agree with you there. i have an air strip in my tank as decoration,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but i also run a double biowheel and a canister filter and i depend on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            those for surface disturbance. still, the stone can have a purpose,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it's just not necessarily the best suited for that purpose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Oct 11, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm not directing this at you, this is just some statements I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > going to make.  I'm using your quote as a starting point for my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > statements. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > certainly. airstones cause a disturbance of the surface and allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gasses to dissipate and cause gas exchange. that's their purpose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > they serve it well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >     But almost any filter will do this so much better that an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > airstone should only be 'needed' if there is really something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > terrible going on, like having to raise temperatures above 83°F to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > treat diseases/parasites.  Filters make the disturbance of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with much more power, like a power head would make, while also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > drawing water from lower levels of the tank through the filter to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the top level.  Power filters that hang on the back of the tank have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a benefit that only sumps have and only sumps do better at.  Power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filters almost always have open boxes, increasing surface area by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the lenght times width of that opening.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >     Like I said a few days ago, I was once a strong believer that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > airstones have a big effect in gas exchange because of the bubbles. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The science I have seen just doesn't support it.  The bubbles make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it to the top of the water with very little gas exchange.  The gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > exchange almost completely takes place at the surface even with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bubbles.  Airstones are for decoration or powering filters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6096 From: jim Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            west central Ohio

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > jim, where are you located? they're available all over where i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            live.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > On Oct 10, 2004, at 2:25 PM, jim wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > someone mentioned  loaches, khuli, in particular... i want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            some ,,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > anyone with a supplier who can provide the banded variety ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thanks .... Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Custom Dreadfalls, Synthetic Hair Pieces, and Other Artful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Adornments....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6097 From: jim Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thank you for the web sites ,, im checking into it,,, regards ..Jim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Kuhlis are not necessarily easy to find in all areas. The November
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            issue of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Aquarium Fish Magazine has couple columns on them. Apparently the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > arriving to dealers in poor shape and their survival rate has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            low, so a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > lot of dealers have stopped ordering them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > There are a few sites online that sell kuhlis:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://store.yahoo.com/fish2u/sckl.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            pCatId=1072&TopCatId=885
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (black only)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://www.aquariumstuffers.com/products/list.cfm?CategoryID=35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > You could also try www.aquabid.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: "jim" <alls2@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > someone mentioned loaches, khuli, in particular... i want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            some ,,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > anyone with a supplier who can provide the banded variety ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thanks .... Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6098 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I boiled my driftwood, and the water is crystal clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Had to boil one end, then turn it over and boil the other...as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            driftwood was abit too tall for the stockpot. I boiled and emptied
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the water about three times, until the water was clear. Makes me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            much more secure about parasites, bad bacteria, etc., as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "secretlaw"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <secretlaw@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The water is caused by the driftwood. I know for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > One thing u can try, just boiled the driftwood for awhile. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > should be gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The cloudy water will be cleared off when the bacteria starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > working.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every time I empty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water when doing a water change I noticed the water is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > color. Also when looking at the tank, the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood has been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the water looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > little cloudy right now, could the color be caused by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6099 From: ben olds Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: khulii, coolie, koolie loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had been seeing them at lfs all summer but they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            disapeared from western Michigan as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Have a great day! Ben...



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6100 From: dawana325 Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Opinions please...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi guys,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recently aquired some "used" aquarium supplies and among them a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            porous piece of natural looking stone that is shaped like a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cave. I wanted to put it in my new quarantine tank (in the process
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of cycling) for "security" purpose of the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My question - how do I disinfect this stone/cave? Can I/should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            boil it or what? Side note, the stuff I "aquired"/used was used in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a marine tank over 10 years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Dawana

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon freshwater tank (over 2 years old)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 5 black skirt tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 10 adult & juvenile female guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 2 endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 4 cross-bred male guppy/endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 1 neon tetra (all others died)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 3 zebra danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 3 cory cats (2 regular, 1 juli)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - 1 apple snail

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 betta in a 2 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6101 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: New cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If my tank was bigger I would of bought more, but I do have 2 other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cory cats just not the same species. Yeah I brought 2 goldfish home on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a plane a few months back and they where in aquafina bottles for over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7 hours. And are still doing fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Your new Cory looks just like the four that I have. I love 'em, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > will get more like them the next time I see any, now that I've got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > my 25 gallon tank up 'n running! From everything I'm reading,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Cories like to be in groups, so you might think about bringing home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a few more! As for the "long trip home", remember they are probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in those bags much longer when they are shipped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :~0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6102 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: New cory cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Actually they did fill it will pure oxygen they have little spout
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            things and they pull it like a trigger and it filled tight, than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            rubberbanded it. It was dark but and it was about 3 hours of highway
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so it have much sloshing. He is doing great now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've also bought endlers online and they didn't use pure oxygen or put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            anything to prevent sloshing and they where in the mail 3 days and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            arrived just fine and are still alive.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > only differenece on the long trip is that not all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > aquariums fill the bag with pure oxygen which the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shippers do, and the fish are shipped tightly packed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in insulated dark boxes to reduce stress and sloshing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6103 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Opinions please...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If the rock was in a marine tank, it might have been used as live rock.  If it was, it will be hard to convert it to freshwater, and may still cause problems.  A lot of marine equipment is useless to freshwater.  If the qtank is for marine, it should be ok.  Others will need to give you more information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi guys,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I recently aquired some "used" aquarium supplies and among them a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              porous piece of natural looking stone that is shaped like a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cave.  I wanted to put it in my new quarantine tank (in the process
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of cycling) for "security" purpose of the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My question - how do I disinfect this stone/cave?  Can I/should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              boil it or what?  Side note, the stuff I "aquired"/used was used in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a marine tank over 10 years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6104 From: red-eye Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Very upset...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I use them in all my tanks - I simply wanted to know what Patrick thought & why. Apparently I upset another member for not having time to read every post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              certainly. airstones cause a disturbance of the surface and allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gasses to dissipate and cause gas exchange. that's their purpose and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they serve it well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Oct 11, 2004, at 8:27 AM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Any redeeming facts about th use of an air stone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > At 09:25 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >     I was once a believer that air stones increase O2 levels in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank.  I researched the issue, and looked at the science and I can say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that the science does not support the idea that an air stone can raise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > O2 levels.  There is 0 chance of ever getting O2 levels in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > above those of the atmosphere unless you are using O2 injection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (similar to CO2 injection), which would be a bad and dangerous idea. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The key to gas exchange is water movement, and power filters create
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > enough movement to take care of the levels of O2 in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > <~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>x x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6105 From: paul helms Date: 10/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Opinions please...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "live rock" is called this because it is full of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              billions of bacteria, diatoms, worms, crustaceans, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that clean the tank. the rock is a natural filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and thus if you put it in fresh water the organisms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will die causing huge amounts of ammonia to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              deposited in your tank. if you let it dry out before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              putting it in the tank you will rehydrate the decayed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              material with the same result. it would be much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              better to look through bowl rock piles at the lfs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              find one you like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If the rock was in a marine tank, it might have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > been used as live rock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If it was, it will be hard to convert it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > freshwater, and may still cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > problems. A lot of marine equipment is useless to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > freshwater. If the qtank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is for marine, it should be ok. Others will need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > give you more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > information.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I recently aquired some "used" aquarium supplies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > among them a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > porous piece of natural looking stone that is shaped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > like a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cave. I wanted to put it in my new quarantine tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (in the process
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of cycling) for "security" purpose of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > My question - how do I disinfect this stone/cave?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Can I/should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > boil it or what? Side note, the stuff I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "aquired"/used was used in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a marine tank over 10 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Dawana




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6106 From: subodh chand Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 444
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It is always good to have a tank that can match the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              natural enviroment. In nature there are no hydrgen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              peroxide additives, but the water is flowing and gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              airated the natural way. The air provided by the stone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              works in a similar way, moving the water around and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exposing the water from below to the surface. The air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exchange happens at the surface and also wach bubble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is like a miniature surface so the CO2 gets expelled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and the oxygen is taken in. More than this shoudl not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              be required, unless you have too many fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank. Over crowding is bad not only because of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              oxygen level, but it also does not give the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              adequate 'space' to move around. In short, we should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              try and keep the aquarium so that the fish are at home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and not feel as being a showpiece like a model on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ramp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have joined the Group recently and am really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              enjoying the correspondence. I live in India where we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              do not get all the frozen food and other fancy foods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that yopu get in USA. We try and feed them more of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              natiral foods and they seem to thrive very well on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that. Even some ground chicken given sparingly so that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it finishes fast is liked by them very much. Be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              careful not to overfeed them though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subodh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6107 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "The air exchange happens at the surface and also wach bubble is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              like a miniature surface so the CO2 gets expelled and the oxygen is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              taken in."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That was once my argument for aeration through air stones. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              took me a long time to accept that air bubbles under the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wouldn't have much effect on disolved O2. The problem is the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bubbles are not pure O2, so they bring in fresh O2, CO2, N, and any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other gas that is in the air where the air pump is located. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              impossible to raise the O2 levels much higher than they are unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              there is such a strain on the gas levels in the tank that more O2 is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              being taken in than normal gas exchange can keep up with. Plus, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              air bubbles don't stay under water long enough for any real exchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to take place. This is why people who use CO2 injection must use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              some device to keep the CO2 bubbles in the water for long periods of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              time. If the bubble comes out at the bottom and goes to the top, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              goes so fast it doesn't have time for any gas exchange. Gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exchange can take place if the bubbles are forced to stay below the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water's surface for several seconds. Still, almost all gas exchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              takes place at the surface unless you have one of the devices I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, as for air bubbles causing more surface area agetation,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that is true and it can increase gas exchange. Now the question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              becomes "is it worth it?". I say it is not worth it. All tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              should be filtered some how. Filtration requires water movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Water movement creates gas exchange. Water is only capable of so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              much gas exchange and then no more exchange can happen, depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              temerature of water, gas levels outside the tank, and all kinds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              things I don't have any understanding of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6108 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Anyone one ever measure the amount of dissolved O2 with a air stone against the supplemental air supply?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It just seems that bubbles in any form will have some dissolving effect. But that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: air bubbles and O2


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "The air exchange happens at the surface and also wach bubble is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              like a miniature surface so the CO2 gets expelled and the oxygen is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              taken in."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That was once my argument for aeration through air stones.  It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              took me a long time to accept that air bubbles under the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wouldn't have much effect on disolved O2.  The problem is the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bubbles are not pure O2, so they bring in fresh O2, CO2, N, and any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other gas that is in the air where the air pump is located.  It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              impossible to raise the O2 levels much higher than they are unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              there is such a strain on the gas levels in the tank that more O2 is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              being taken in than normal gas exchange can keep up with.  Plus, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              air bubbles don't stay under water long enough for any real exchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to take place.  This is why people who use CO2 injection must use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              some device to keep the CO2 bubbles in the water for long periods of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              time.  If the bubble comes out at the bottom and goes to the top, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              goes so fast it doesn't have time for any gas exchange.  Gas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              exchange can take place if the bubbles are forced to stay below the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water's surface for several seconds.  Still, almost all gas exchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              takes place at the surface unless you have one of the devices I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Now, as for air bubbles causing more surface area agetation,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that is true and it can increase gas exchange.  Now the question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              becomes "is it worth it?".  I say it is not worth it.  All tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              should be filtered some how.  Filtration requires water movement. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Water movement creates gas exchange.  Water is only capable of so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              much gas exchange and then no more exchange can happen, depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              temerature of water, gas levels outside the tank, and all kinds of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              things I don't have any understanding of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6109 From: jim Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Opinions please...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i've got a couple slabs of shale , i'd be willing to trade ,, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              up swap.........regards ....Jim \

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "dawana325"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <dawanalea@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I recently aquired some "used" aquarium supplies and among them a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > porous piece of natural looking stone that is shaped like a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cave. I wanted to put it in my new quarantine tank (in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              process
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of cycling) for "security" purpose of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > My question - how do I disinfect this stone/cave? Can I/should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > boil it or what? Side note, the stuff I "aquired"/used was used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a marine tank over 10 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon freshwater tank (over 2 years old)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 5 black skirt tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 10 adult & juvenile female guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 2 endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 4 cross-bred male guppy/endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 1 neon tetra (all others died)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 3 zebra danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 3 cory cats (2 regular, 1 juli)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > - 1 apple snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1 betta in a 2 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6110 From: jim Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: cory pic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that is an EXCELLANT PHOTO, on the group home page,, any camera
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              recomendations ??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6111 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I asked the same question about actual testing.  I don't remember the answer, but I do remember the answer to that question was what changed my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Anyone one ever measure the amount of dissolved O2 with a air stone against the supplemental air supply?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It just seems that bubbles in any form will have some dissolving effect. But that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6112 From: secretlaw Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It won't hurt the fish....it just doesn't look good.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Does the brownish color hurt the fish at all?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "secretlaw"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <secretlaw@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The water is caused by the driftwood. I know for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > One thing u can try, just boiled the driftwood for awhile. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > should be gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The cloudy water will be cleared off when the bacteria starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > working.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every time I empty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water when doing a water change I noticed the water is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > color. Also when looking at the tank, the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood has been in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > little cloudy right now, could the color be caused by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6113 From: secretlaw Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Water color and driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just try to boil the driftwood as I had mentioned earlier.... I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tried that and it works great....




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "secretlaw"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <secretlaw@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > It won't hurt the fish....it just doesn't look good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Does the brownish color hurt the fish at all?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "secretlaw"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <secretlaw@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > The water is caused by the driftwood. I know for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > One thing u can try, just boiled the driftwood for awhile. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > should be gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > The cloudy water will be cleared off when the bacteria starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > working.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > <utacutie@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Ok, I have been reading up on driftwood and every time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                empty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > water when doing a water change I noticed the water is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > brownish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > color. Also when looking at the tank, the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > yellowish/brown when the lights are off. The wood has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > for 2 months, since I set up the tank. Besides the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > little cloudy right now, could the color be caused by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Just curious, I didn't know if it was because the water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > up or what. Thanks for the input,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6114 From: Aaron Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory pic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I found that picture in Photo Albums > MELANIE'S PICS, titled: 2 NEW
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BUDS - there you can see the original photo before I cut and cropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The following is an excerpt reposted with the express consent of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                author and owner of our sister group - FishTankPics · The place to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                share Aquarium pictures! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FishTankPics/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "...I too use a Digital Camera, best way to go - take a Hundered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                photos and delete the bad ones, or in my case thousands and I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ended up w/ a few really good ones.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Most direct answer to your question - Manual Focus. Thats the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Solution.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My best pictures are taken at night when there is no ambient light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from outside (i.e. the Sun is down) or inside ( all indoor lights off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in the room ).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Using only the Aquarium lights for illumination. That will eliminate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                any glare or reflections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Take the same picture with and without flash. Try all the different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flash settings available.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Take the same shot repeadetly and compare the results. Experiment w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                all the various photo settings. Its best to use a tripod or sturdy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flat ( not level, as you always want to aim down - if even slightly )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                surface to take the photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Use the self-timer to eliminate shutter shake.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Take a larger picture than you want, then zoom in crop & cut after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Taking a close up will more likely result in a blurry picture. If the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Fish are fast swimmers, move the camera at the same speed they are.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Try taking while they are eating to get them while they are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                moving as fast.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Always aim away from the light, go in the same direction as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                light. Aim from above the level of the light down onto your subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Keep trying and let us know how your doing..."


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hope that helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Aaron

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                p.s. - for more photo info, please visit: FishTankPics · The place to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                share Aquarium pictures! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FishTankPics/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ... the place for posting pictures of your aquarium and Aquatic Life -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Freshwater, Planted, Brackish, Saltwater, Reef, Natural or Neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Gravel. All tanks are welcome, this is the place to show off! ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Please include a description of the tank - size, lighting, fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                substrate, etc... Any special work you do to make the tank look how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it does and so-on. close-ups of plants/fish are also encouraged. Ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                answer questions about photographing your tank, or what someone else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                does to theirs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "jim"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <alls2@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that is an EXCELLANT PHOTO, on the group home page,, any camera
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recomendations ??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6115 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: cory pic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks about the picture, It got a little help as tropicalfishman
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                said he cropped it and must of changed the colors a little bit they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                look a little more gold, He's right about taking hundreds of pics and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                deleting the bad ones. I actually got lucky and that was about the 3rd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                picture I had taken. I have a expensive camera that has a 14x zoom on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the camera it self (not one that retracts back into the camera) So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that helped alot. But yeah it's alot of luck. But thanks about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                picture. It looks nice up on the group page. =:o) Melanie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I found that picture in Photo Albums > MELANIE'S PICS, titled: 2 NEW
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > BUDS - there you can see the original photo before I cut and cropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "...I too use a Digital Camera, best way to go - take a Hundered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > photos and delete the bad ones, or in my case thousands and I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ended up w/ a few really good ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6116 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey I bet if you did measure the amount of suspended O=2 in the water, then add airstone you'll find there is some rise in O-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You know , whenever I go to the forest and look around rivers, streams and ponds I just can't find any airpump, filter, tresting for nitrites,, yewa I'm being a smart "Donkey" here but it's like my mom, shye screams at me when I give the cat a chicken bone, I don't see many people de-boning birds that they eat, but that's me. I think you do get somke O-2 from a airstone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air bubbles and O2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I asked the same question about actual testing.  I don't remember the answer, but I do remember the answer to that question was what changed my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone one ever measure the amount of dissolved O2 with a air stone against the supplemental air supply?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It just seems that bubbles in any form will have some dissolving effect. But that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6117 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't know how to test for dissolved O, but I do know how to test for CO2.  The thing to do would be to take a fully stocked tank and test pH and KH at the same time.  Add an air stone for 24 hours and test again.  In theory, CO2 should have been released and be lower than it was at the same time of day the day before.  I know there is an O2 test kit somewhere, I used one in a biology class.  I just don't remember what it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey I bet if you did measure the amount of suspended O=2 in the water, then add airstone you'll find there is some rise in O-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know , whenever I go to the forest and look around rivers, streams and ponds I just can't find any airpump, filter, tresting for nitrites,, yewa I'm being a smart "Donkey" here but it's like my mom, shye screams at me when I give the cat a chicken bone, I don't see many people de-boning birds that they eat, but that's me. I think you do get somke O-2 from a airstone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6118 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you have access to the materials, HERE is a site that tells how to do the test for dissolved O.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6119 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ok guys i guess since i have started feeding frozen food i have aquired ich on my bleeding hearts.. jsut noticed it today.. can someone tlel me the cheepest most effective route to go concerning medicating... thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6120 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         I always believed there's some oxygen impressed into water from air-bubbles, but I also bought the argument that the weight of earths' atmosphere interfacing with water being moved by a filter or power-head outweighs the amount of gas introduced by air-stone bubbles. I had a conversation with an associate, trying to convince him he should have a filter and pump in his new pond, and his argument was that his cousins pond did'nt have one, and HIS fish were healthy. I never convinced him to filter. After the interchange, I realized his cousins pond was part of a natural stream, which has natural filtration, and enough atmosphere to fly a 747 or C-5A. Bubbles rising to the surface cause the water atmosphere interface too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey I bet if you did measure the amount of suspended O=2 in the water, then add airstone you'll find there is some rise in O-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You know , whenever I go to the forest and look around rivers, streams and ponds I just can't find any airpump, filter, tresting for nitrites,, yewa I'm being a smart "Donkey" here but it's like my mom, shye screams at me when I give the cat a chicken bone, I don't see many people de-boning birds that they eat, but that's me. I think you do get somke O-2 from a airstone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air bubbles and O2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I asked the same question about actual testing. I don't remember the answer, but I do remember the answer to that question was what changed my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone one ever measure the amount of dissolved O2 with a air stone against the supplemental air supply?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It just seems that bubbles in any form will have some dissolving effect. But that's me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Black Adder












                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6121 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: cory pic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually looking at the picture it has alot of gold. =:o) Thanks for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      putting it up, I feel like they won fish of the week or something. Hehehe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I found that picture in Photo Albums > MELANIE'S PICS, titled: 2 NEW
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > BUDS - there you can see the original photo before I cut and cropped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6122 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Tetra puts out a safe oxygen/O-2 test kit -- retails around $12.50. As I recall, I believe it has three bottles of liquid and a vial if I'm not mistaken. I sell these kits to water gardeners for pond use but its used for aquariums as well, of course. The Winkler Test you've drawn attention to really looks interesting but I see you have to be careful with it, plus I guess it wouldn't hurt if you had a touch of "the Mad Scientist" syndrome. I'll leave that one for Igor. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6123 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: New Pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just uploaded a few new pics of my tank in the photos section if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anyone wants to peek. Anyone know what the proper name of that pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is? He's shy so it's hard to get a good picture yet. I don't think he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a gold nugget. I found him in the store today, he'd leapt from a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of red spotted plecos into a small bin with aquatic frogs and I had to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      save him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Oct 13, 2004, at 12:24 AM, sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6124 From: straubtyler Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I never use meds anymore becouse i have lost alot more fish to meds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      than to ich. The best thing i have found is raise tank temp to about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      82 this speeds upthe life cycle of the ich. do lost of water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      20% per day. and add salt if your fish and plants can tolerate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      salt. you might want to do some research becouse some do not do well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with salt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ok guys i guess since i have started feeding frozen food i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquired ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > on my bleeding hearts.. jsut noticed it today.. can someone tlel me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cheepest most effective route to go concerning medicating... thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6125 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so the other fish will not be bothered by this increase in temp or salt.. i am wondering what are the signs of salt affecting plants shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I never use meds anymore becouse i have lost alot more fish to meds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      than to ich.  The best thing i have found is raise tank temp to about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      82 this speeds upthe life cycle of the ich.  do lost of water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      20% per day.  and add salt if your fish and plants can tolerate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      salt.  you might want to do some research becouse some do not do well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with salt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6126 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I doubt very much that the frozen fish food caused an outbreack of Ich, unless the fish actually ate the food in a frozen state. Did you add any new fish such as the Minor Tetras without a quarantine period? Some of the most "effective" treatments can be a bit harsh on the fish, depending upon the medication given (there are many that can be used) and the species of fish,  The cheapest and still quite effective treatment is with aquarium salt, heat or both, and is safest. HEAT METHOD -- gradually (no more than 2 degrees per hour) raise the temperature up to 86 degrees. Ich cannot reproduce above 85 degrees. Some aquarists use 90 degrees but I'm not recommending that.  Keep the temperature at 86o for a minimum of 3 days AFTER you see all traces of Ich gone from the fish, to kill off any free-swimming Ich spores. Increase the aeration during this period. Then gradually bring the temperature down. SALT METHOD -- slowly add aquarium salt over a period of several days until the concentration is 3 tsps. per gallon. Disolve it first before adding it. Salt in this concentration will kill Ich. If changing watet, put back the amount of salt you took out. Keep this concentration of salt in there for a minimum of 3 days AFTER you see all Ich gone from the fish. Then gradually reduce salt content by doing salt-free water changes. HEAT & SALT TOGETHER -- Gradually increase temperature to 86 degrees and add salt over several days until you get to a concentration of 2 tsps. per gallon. Increase aeration and hold it there, again, for a minimum of 3 days AFTER all traces of Ich are gone. Then gradually wean them back down to normal. This almost always works (I've never had a problem) although there has been an occassional resistant strain known (extremely rare) that has tolerated 95 degrees. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6127 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With Tyler's post as a reminder, I would like to add to this post. Most aquarium plants will tolerate 2 tsps' of salt per gallon. However, while some plants can tolerate more salt, there aren't many aquarium plants that can tolerate 3 tsps. per gallon. So, you are better off using less salt (2 tsps. per gallon) and increasing the temperature. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6128 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so i can really jsut do the heat method.. i only see it on one bleeding heart right now.. .i did add the zebra danios and killifish with no quartine as i dont have a tank for that... but i have been looking... well dang... so im not goign to boil the fish then at 86.. and i keep it there till i dont see it anymore and for 3 extra days. how come with the heat and salt method there is more salt in the tank... so you would recomend this more than meds... thanks so much.. im going to turn my tank up to 80 now yikes this is goign to freak me out till it is over.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I doubt very much that the frozen fish food caused an outbreack of Ich, unless the fish actually ate the food in a frozen state. Did you add any new fish such as the Minor Tetras without a quarantine period? Some of the most "effective" treatments can be a bit harsh on the fish, depending upon the medication given (there are many that can be used) and the species of fish,  The cheapest and still quite effective treatment is with aquarium salt, heat or both, and is safest. HEAT METHOD -- gradually (no more than 2 degrees per hour) raise the temperature up to 86 degrees. Ich cannot reproduce above 85 degrees. Some aquarists use 90 degrees but I'm not recommending that.  Keep the temperature at 86o for a minimum of 3 days AFTER you see all traces of Ich gone from the fish, to kill off any free-swimming Ich spores. Increase the aeration during this period. Then gradually bring the temperature down. SALT METHOD -- slowly add aquarium salt over a period of several days until the concentration is 3 tsps. per gallon. Disolve it first before adding it. Salt in this concentration will kill Ich. If changing watet, put back the amount of salt you took out. Keep this concentration of salt in there for a minimum of 3 days AFTER you see all Ich gone from the fish. Then gradually reduce salt content by doing salt-free water changes. HEAT & SALT TOGETHER -- Gradually increase temperature to 86 degrees and add salt over several days until you get to a concentration of 2 tsps. per gallon. Increase aeration and hold it there, again, for a minimum of 3 days AFTER all traces of Ich are gone. Then gradually wean them back down to normal. This almost always works (I've never had a problem) although there has been an occassional resistant strain known (extremely rare) that has tolerated 95 degrees. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6129 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Watch fish for any signs of stress such as coming up to the surface for oxygen. Some fish can take more heat than others. I would keep an eye on the killifish as they don't like too much heat, but see how it goes. ADD more Aeration. With Heat and Salt, you need less salt, not more -- With heat -- 2 tsps. of salt per gallon. Without heat -- 3 tsps. salt per gallon. If you have live plants do not use the salt-only method. The heat method (with or without salt, but preferably with the 2 tsps. of salt) is better anyway. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6130 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's not one or two fish affected with ich, it's the entire tank and that's what has to be treated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I use a combination of heat (86°), salt, Rid Ich +, and water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't forget that you slowly increase the temp in the tank over a period of time. I use the aquarium salt's recommended dosage for fish treatment, which is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. I've had success with Quick Cure in the past, but Rid Ich + is safe with catfish, loaches, and tetras. Daily water changes are essential. I also shorten the time I have the tank lights on. I feel it's restful for the fish, and I've read that light can affect medications.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In all the time I've kept fish I've lost very, very few to ich, and I've never lost any plants to treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so i can really jsut do the heat method.. i only see it on one bleeding heart right now.. .i did add the zebra danios and killifish with no quartine as i dont have a tank for that... but i have been looking... well dang... so im not goign to boil the fish then at 86.. and i keep it there till i dont see it anymore and for 3 extra days. how come with the heat and salt method there is more salt in the tank... so you would recomend this more than meds... thanks so much.. im going to turn my tank up to 80 now yikes this is goign to freak me out till it is over.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6131 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think it is a misconception that a tank can be gottom 100% rid of Ich. It cannot be. The best way to get rid of Ich/Ick is to help the fish recover from the infestation and then create a better environment for the fish so its immune systems are able to fight off the ick. This can also include treating the individual fish for the treatment in ospital tank and when things are favorable, returning him to the main tank. Ick occurs only when the immunity of fish is low doe to stress or other parasitic infections or maybe even the environment. Once the root is removed, ick also vanishes and returns only when something else goes wrong. But yes, treat the disease along with the diseased.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 13 October 2004 13:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: ich issue

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's not one or two fish affected with ich, it's the entire tank and that's what has to be treated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I use a combination of heat (86°), salt, Rid Ich +, and water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't forget that you slowly increase the temp in the tank over a period of time. I use the aquarium salt's recommended dosage for fish treatment, which is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. I've had success with Quick Cure in the past, but Rid Ich + is safe with catfish, loaches, and tetras. Daily water changes are essential. I also shorten the time I have the tank lights on. I feel it's restful for the fish, and I've read that light can affect medications.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In all the time I've kept fish I've lost very, very few to ich, and I've never lost any plants to treatment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      so i can really jsut do the heat method.. i only see it on one bleeding heart right now.. .i did add the zebra danios and killifish with no quartine as i dont have a tank for that... but i have been looking... well dang... so im not goign to boil the fish then at 86.. and i keep it there till i dont see it anymore and for 3 extra days. how come with the heat and salt method there is more salt in the tank... so you would recomend this more than meds... thanks so much.. im going to turn my tank up to 80 now yikes this is goign to freak me out till it is over.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6132 From: shortlid Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just got two large ghost shrimp for only $1.00!! They are cool what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do these guys eat. How large will they get??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6133 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water changes.  It is possible that the new foods polluted the water and caused some ammonia/nitrite spikes.  Raise temps, add a little salt, do water changes, and it should go away. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so the other fish will not be bothered by this increase in temp or salt.. i am wondering what are the signs of salt affecting plants shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6134 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah, heat and water changes.  Salt isn't really that important, you can use stress coat to help the fish's slime. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so i can really jsut do the heat method.. i only see it on one bleeding heart right now.. .i did add the zebra danios and killifish with no quartine as i dont have a tank for that... but i have been looking... well dang... so im not goign to boil the fish then at 86.. and i keep it there till i dont see it anymore and for 3 extra days. how come with the heat and salt method there is more salt in the tank... so you would recomend this more than meds... thanks so much.. im going to turn my tank up to 80 now yikes this is goign to freak me out till it is over.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6135 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Treating the tank is true, but meds are wrong.  The problem is water conditions.  The new theory is that all tanks have ich, but only sick fish will be infected.  There is no point of trying to wipe out the ich, just try to get them to speed up and fall off the fish faster.  Also, ich isn't as deadly as the water conditions/physical stress that caused the fish to catch the ich.  Personally I've killed more fish with meds than I've saved, and I haven't lost a fish treating ich with water changes, heat, and a little salt. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's not one or two fish affected with ich, it's the entire tank and that's what has to be treated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I use a combination of heat (86°), salt, Rid Ich +, and water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Don't forget that you slowly increase the temp in the tank over a period of time. I use the aquarium salt's recommended dosage for fish treatment, which is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. I've had success with Quick Cure in the past, but Rid Ich + is safe with catfish, loaches, and tetras. Daily water changes are essential. I also shorten the time I have the tank lights on. I feel it's restful for the fish, and I've read that light can affect medications.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In all the time I've kept fish I've lost very, very few to ich, and I've never lost any plants to treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6136 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: air bubbles and O2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good point Patrick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I too believe there is a device for testing dissolved O-2 but most likely it's big bucks for a small , one parameter tester, seems a waste of money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The CO2 measuring would be easier, also observe the fish with air on air off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I notice that when I turn my overpowered powerhead and filtration system and the air is shut off ((when feeding, don't want to waste food)) the fish become less active after say ten minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But once again, that's my opinion yours might differ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air bubbles and O2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know how to test for dissolved O, but I do know how to test for CO2.  The thing to do would be to take a fully stocked tank and test pH and KH at the same time.  Add an air stone for 24 hours and test again.  In theory, CO2 should have been released and be lower than it was at the same time of day the day before.  I know there is an O2 test kit somewhere, I used one in a biology class.  I just don't remember what it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hey I bet if you did measure the amount of suspended O=2 in the water, then add airstone you'll find there is some rise in O-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You know , whenever I go to the forest and look around rivers, streams and ponds I just can't find any airpump, filter, tresting for nitrites,, yewa I'm being a smart "Donkey" here but it's like my mom, shye screams at me when I give the cat a chicken bone, I don't see many people de-boning birds that they eat, but that's me. I think you do get somke O-2 from a airstone


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6137 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: air bubbles and O2/testkits
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just wanted to make a point here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not all test kits are alike. I have a few and you can get differing results from both a Baseline test (using liquid that has a set value and can be used to determine the level of accuracy and /or  calibrate the test equipment) and material to be tested.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So try and keep the "OBSERVATION" level as subjective and reflective as your tests.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, DON'T forget your log book, you don't know what is wrong if you don't have data to tell you what may have changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air bubbles and O2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tetra puts out a safe oxygen/O-2 test kit -- retails around $12.50. As I recall, I believe it has three bottles of liquid and a vial if I'm not mistaken. I sell these kits to water gardeners for pond use but its used for aquariums as well, of course. The Winkler Test you've drawn attention to really looks interesting but I see you have to be careful with it, plus I guess it wouldn't hurt if you had a touch of "the Mad Scientist" syndrome. I'll leave that one for Igor. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6138 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anything off the bottom of the tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- shortlid <shortlid@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Just got two large ghost shrimp for only $1.00!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > They are cool what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > do these guys eat. How large will they get??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6139 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is there anything that can be done for a fish that is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              having balance trouble...spinning with head down for the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a smaller container. Is there anything that can be done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6140 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Approximately seven (7) different varieties of shrimp are mentioned in reference to freshwater-ghost shrimp aquaria : Yamato Numa Ebi/Caridina spp., Ghost/Grass, Wood/Singapore, Rock/Mountain, Bumble Bee, Macrobrachium, and Neocaridina spp. These shrimp are kept primarily as detritus and/or algae consumers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OK that's what the website said, personally I don't think they are that accurate about the shrimp, one problem, we are using a *common name* and that's where it all gets sticky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But I think I know what ghost shrimp you are referring to, as for life span, well that's tough, they get eaten before they have time to unpack their bags, I had one that learned how to stay hidden and thus stayed off the menu for about 18 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think they are like many prey species being that time is not the limiting factor as much as just keeping away from predators.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As for food, they seemed to like finding a corner of the tank with the most detritus and left over food. I believe they are omnivores, basically eating anything they find including the dead of their own species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hope some of this helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              *common names are "Attached" to commonly found species where as  Latin names or the names given to species when discovered and the data is verified and published has to follow what is know as ICZN, International Conference of Zoological Nomenclature, this way we don't get conflicting names and it's not dependant on national languages as all scientists use Latin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: shortlid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Ghost shrimp


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just got two large ghost shrimp for only $1.00!! They are cool what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              do these guys eat.  How large will they get??





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6141 From: shortlid Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks! I don't have big enough fish I my tank to give these shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              much of a problem YET!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark & Peta"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Approximately seven (7) different varieties of shrimp are mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in reference to freshwater-ghost shrimp aquaria : Yamato Numa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ebi/Caridina spp., Ghost/Grass, Wood/Singapore, Rock/Mountain, Bumble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Bee, Macrobrachium, and Neocaridina spp. These shrimp are kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              primarily as detritus and/or algae consumers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > OK that's what the website said, personally I don't think they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that accurate about the shrimp, one problem, we are using a *common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              name* and that's where it all gets sticky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > But I think I know what ghost shrimp you are referring to, as for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              life span, well that's tough, they get eaten before they have time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              unpack their bags, I had one that learned how to stay hidden and thus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              stayed off the menu for about 18 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I think they are like many prey species being that time is not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              limiting factor as much as just keeping away from predators.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > As for food, they seemed to like finding a corner of the tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the most detritus and left over food. I believe they are omnivores,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              basically eating anything they find including the dead of their own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hope some of this helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > *common names are "Attached" to commonly found species where as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Latin names or the names given to species when discovered and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              data is verified and published has to follow what is know as ICZN,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              International Conference of Zoological Nomenclature, this way we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              don't get conflicting names and it's not dependant on national
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              languages as all scientists use Latin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: shortlid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Just got two large ghost shrimp for only $1.00!! They are cool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > do these guys eat. How large will they get??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6142 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              How big do fish have to be to be a problem for the ghost shrimp?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The biggest I have will eventually be the Diamond Tetras, although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they are babies now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also... Which do ya'll feel are better at their "cleaning duties",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ghost shrimp or cory cats? I'm assuming that they cories would put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              out more waste than the shrimp...right? I'm needing a "crew" for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the new 25 Tall Eclipse tank. I have five Ottos "on duty" for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              algae. I've got a dozen Diamonds in the tank, so how many cories or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ghosts will be needed? Thanks once more for all your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks! I don't have big enough fish I my tank to give these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > much of a problem YET!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Peta"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Approximately seven (7) different varieties of shrimp are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in reference to freshwater-ghost shrimp aquaria : Yamato Numa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ebi/Caridina spp., Ghost/Grass, Wood/Singapore, Rock/Mountain,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Bumble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Bee, Macrobrachium, and Neocaridina spp. These shrimp are kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > primarily as detritus and/or algae consumers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > OK that's what the website said, personally I don't think they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that accurate about the shrimp, one problem, we are using a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              *common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > name* and that's where it all gets sticky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > But I think I know what ghost shrimp you are referring to, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > life span, well that's tough, they get eaten before they have time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > unpack their bags, I had one that learned how to stay hidden and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > stayed off the menu for about 18 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I think they are like many prey species being that time is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > limiting factor as much as just keeping away from predators.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > As for food, they seemed to like finding a corner of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the most detritus and left over food. I believe they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              omnivores,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > basically eating anything they find including the dead of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Hope some of this helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > *common names are "Attached" to commonly found species where as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Latin names or the names given to species when discovered and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > data is verified and published has to follow what is know as ICZN,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > International Conference of Zoological Nomenclature, this way we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't get conflicting names and it's not dependant on national
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > languages as all scientists use Latin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > From: shortlid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Just got two large ghost shrimp for only $1.00!! They are cool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > do these guys eat. How large will they get??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6143 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've never been able to keep ghost shrimp alive for more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              month. They need certain things in their water (calcium, higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hardness levels, iodine) that my water doesn't have and I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a near-by source of marine suppliments that have those things in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them. I don't want to spend the money to buy them either. :) They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are about 4 for a dollar at the lwm (local w-mart), but I've given
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              up on them for now. There is a group for freshwater shrimp on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yahoo. groups.yahoo.com/group/freshwatershrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just thought I would let y'all know about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6144 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks ray but how do i get more aeration... i have one air stone.. what else do i do.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Watch fish for any signs of stress such as coming up to the surface for oxygen. Some fish can take more heat than others. I would keep an eye on the killifish as they don't like too much heat, but see how it goes. ADD more Aeration. With Heat and Salt, you need less salt, not more -- With heat -- 2 tsps. of salt per gallon. Without heat -- 3 tsps. salt per gallon. If you have live plants do not use the salt-only method. The heat method (with or without salt, but preferably with the 2 tsps. of salt) is better anyway. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6145 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have Ghost Shrimp in my tanks. They are 10/$2 since they are sold as feeders. Some of my fish eat them, some don't.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They will eat leftover food and algae, but from what I have heard and read, Amanos are probably better at eating algae.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mine tend to stay hidden in plants and driftwood. In my fry tank, they swarm out when I put in baby brine shrimp to feed. They are pretty fun too watch, and mine show no fear. They 'attack' my hand in the tank, are VERY fast, and I have seen them rear back at my swordtails (before swimming off).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6146 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks a bunch yes i have slowly put the temp up i th ink it is like at 81 now.. i have to go get the salts so i do that later.. i am so notgexcited about these water changes as i did that for 2 weeks when i came back from vacation lol... but oh well... thanks shannon who is still confused what more aeration is or how to do it..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's not one or two fish affected with ich, it's the entire tank and that's what has to be treated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I use a combination of heat (86°), salt, Rid Ich +, and water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't forget that you slowly increase the temp in the tank over a period of time. I use the aquarium salt's recommended dosage for fish treatment, which is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. I've had success with Quick Cure in the past, but Rid Ich + is safe with catfish, loaches, and tetras. Daily water changes are essential. I also shorten the time I have the tank lights on. I feel it's restful for the fish, and I've read that light can affect medications.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In all the time I've kept fish I've lost very, very few to ich, and I've never lost any plants to treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6147 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my ghost shrimp is now almost 2 years old!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I've never been able to keep ghost shrimp alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > month. They need certain things in their water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (calcium, higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hardness levels, iodine) that my water doesn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a near-by source of marine suppliments that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > those things in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > them. I don't want to spend the money to buy them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > either. :) They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are about 4 for a dollar at the lwm (local w-mart),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > but I've given
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > up on them for now. There is a group for freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > shrimp on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > yahoo. groups.yahoo.com/group/freshwatershrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Just thought I would let y'all know about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6148 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the cori's only put out more waste because they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              consume more junk off the bottom, but i would put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4-6 of them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > How big do fish have to be to be a problem for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ghost shrimp?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The biggest I have will eventually be the Diamond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Tetras, although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they are babies now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Also... Which do ya'll feel are better at their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "cleaning duties",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ghost shrimp or cory cats? I'm assuming that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cories would put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > out more waste than the shrimp...right? I'm needing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a "crew" for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the new 25 Tall Eclipse tank. I have five Ottos "on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > duty" for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > algae. I've got a dozen Diamonds in the tank, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > how many cories or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ghosts will be needed? Thanks once more for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "shortlid"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > <shortlid@j...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thanks! I don't have big enough fish I my tank to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > give these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > much of a problem YET!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > "Mark &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Peta"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Approximately seven (7) different varieties of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > shrimp are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > in reference to freshwater-ghost shrimp aquaria :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Yamato Numa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Ebi/Caridina spp., Ghost/Grass, Wood/Singapore,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Rock/Mountain,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Bumble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Bee, Macrobrachium, and Neocaridina spp. These
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > shrimp are kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > primarily as detritus and/or algae consumers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > OK that's what the website said, personally I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don't think they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > that accurate about the shrimp, one problem, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are using a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > *common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > name* and that's where it all gets sticky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > But I think I know what ghost shrimp you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > referring to, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > life span, well that's tough, they get eaten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > before they have time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > unpack their bags, I had one that learned how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > stay hidden and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > thus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > stayed off the menu for about 18 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I think they are like many prey species being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that time is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > limiting factor as much as just keeping away from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > predators.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > As for food, they seemed to like finding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > corner of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the most detritus and left over food. I believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > omnivores,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > basically eating anything they find including the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > dead of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Hope some of this helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > *common names are "Attached" to commonly found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > species where as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Latin names or the names given to species when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > discovered and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > data is verified and published has to follow what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is know as ICZN,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > International Conference of Zoological
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nomenclature, this way we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > don't get conflicting names and it's not dependant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > on national
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > languages as all scientists use Latin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > From: shortlid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Just got two large ghost shrimp for only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > $1.00!! They are cool
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > do these guys eat. How large will they get??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6149 From: paul helms Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sounds like a swim bladder infection. common to occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in weaker fish when the nitrate levels are high, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it could have been where ever you bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Is there anything that can be done for a fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > having balance trouble...spinning with head down for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a smaller container. Is there anything that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6150 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: started treatment for ich but need clafication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ok ray or who ever does this way of treating with salt and heat but how fast or slow should i put the salt in.. my temp is now up to 82... i know i have to evenuatllly get like 2 tsp per gallon making like 40 tsp but how much and how fast... cuase i am doing water cahnges and all.. jsut curious.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6151 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So guess there's nothing I can do for it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I hate it when I feel my hands are tied, even with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a $1.99 fishie.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > sounds like a swim bladder infection. common to occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in weaker fish when the nitrate levels are high, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it could have been where ever you bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Is there anything that can be done for a fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > having balance trouble...spinning with head down for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > a smaller container. Is there anything that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6152 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A small container would'nt have as much oxygen as a full tank with clean water. Could be an infection, of something like physical damage, parasites or genetic anomoly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > So guess there's nothing I can do for it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I hate it when I feel my hands are tied, even with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a $1.99 fishie.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > :~(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > sounds like a swim bladder infection. common to occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > in weaker fish when the nitrate levels are high, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > it could have been where ever you bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Is there anything that can be done for a fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > having balance trouble...spinning with head down for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a smaller container. Is there anything that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6153 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Could I ask one minor question without controversy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have had tetras in my community tanks and at one time or another we had ich or fungus. Being an alarmist as most hobbyists are  I would first I do the preferred treatment but found that sometimes the treatment seemed to either kill or cure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I then took some black tetras (something herbertAxelrodi) that had ich from time to time and just left them be, it cleared up on it's own,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>>>NOW THIS IS NOT INSTRUCTION, JUST OBSERVATION<<<< in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about three days maybe 4. I don't know exactly why.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I kept them in a Ph that wasn't ideal for tetras (7.2 - 7.4, most tetras prefer 5 -6, most be the tannic acid in the rivers) but the water quality was perfect according to the both my own testing equipment and confirmed by two local fish stores (LFS) and with the exception of the Ph the rest of the parameters were "Spot on".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So maybe they [tetras] are sort of prone to these diseases and are able to live thru them better than other fishes like how some tourists can get malaria in a given area buy indigenous people don't get the disease.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I have been to both the Rio Negara and Amazon and it isn't a clean river, unless seeing dead animals here and there floating by and then you have the Bot Flies and if you drink the water you'll be getting about ten shot's in your hinny. So why can these fish survive in such dirty water, they must have some built-in immunity. They might get the spots but then it would clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              BTW, the head waters are clean with the exception being the gold miners how's runoff includes mercury , that aint good for anything but a cheap way to extract placer gold from mud.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>>>JUST AN OBSERVATION<<<<
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So how many of you out there commit to testing , experimenting and logging results?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] started treatment for ich but need clafication

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ok ray or who ever does this way of treating with salt and heat but how fast or slow should i put the salt in.. my temp is now up to 82... i know i have to evenuatllly get like 2 tsp per gallon making like 40 tsp but how much and how fast... cuase i am doing water cahnges and all.. jsut curious.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6154 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, I just caught this post of yours as I've been out all day. Some air pumps are adjustable. I presume yours isn't or you wouldn't be asking how, or if it is, just increase the adjustment of course to get more air. Barring that, you could get a three-way and a two-way valve and add another airstone with complete control of both (the line from the pump goes to the three-way valve first), or replace your existing airstone with a larger one. If you have just so much air pressure from your pump and no more, raising the airstone off the bottom so that its several inches from the surface will give you a lot more air from the airstone as there is now much less water pressure acting against the pump. Some filters (such as the Wisper filters) are adjustable as well; turn it up to maximum flow to get the most turbulance out of it. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6155 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ich, in my opinion, isn't deadly.  If the ich gets on the fish and the fish are healthy, they might stay for a while, but no more will get on them.  Ich only stays on the fish for a few days, I think, and then they have to fall off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't keep up with regular tests unless it is a new tank or I add fish or lose a fish.  I don't see a reason to do regular tests except in those cases.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Could I ask one minor question without controversy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have had tetras in my community tanks and at one time or another we had ich or fungus. Being an alarmist as most hobbyists are  I would first I do the preferred treatment but found that sometimes the treatment seemed to either kill or cure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I then took some black tetras (something herbertAxelrodi) that had ich from time to time and just left them be, it cleared up on it's own, >>>>NOW THIS IS NOT INSTRUCTION, JUST OBSERVATION<<<< in about three days maybe 4. I don't know exactly why.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I kept them in a Ph that wasn't ideal for tetras (7.2 - 7.4, most tetras prefer 5 -6, most be the tannic acid in the rivers) but the water quality was perfect according to the both my own testing equipment and confirmed by two local fish stores (LFS) and with the exception of the Ph the rest of the parameters were "Spot on".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So maybe they [tetras] are sort of prone to these diseases and are able to live thru them better than other fishes like how some tourists can get malaria in a given area buy indigenous people don't get the disease.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I have been to both the Rio Negara and Amazon and it isn't a clean river, unless seeing dead animals here and there floating by and then you have the Bot Flies and if you drink the water you'll be getting about ten shot's in your hinny. So why can these fish survive in such dirty water, they must have some built-in immunity. They might get the spots but then it would clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BTW, the head waters are clean with the exception being the gold miners how's runoff includes mercury , that aint good for anything but a cheap way to extract placer gold from mud.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>>>JUST AN OBSERVATION<<<<
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So how many of you out there commit to testing , experimenting and logging results?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6156 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 tsp of salt sounds like a lot of salt, too much for tetras and catfish (cories, ottos, etc).  That is just my opinion, but I have never seen more than 1 tsp/gallon suggested, and I think that is too much. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ok ray or who ever does this way of treating with salt and heat but how fast or slow should i put the salt in.. my temp is now up to 82... i know i have to evenuatllly get like 2 tsp per gallon making like 40 tsp but how much and how fast... cuase i am doing water cahnges and all.. jsut curious.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6157 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ok im going to go look on that.. and figure something out... did you get the questoin i had about how much and how frequent to add teh salt in... i started tonight did 25 percent added 3 tsp in the 5 gallons.. was that right how much more s hould i do and how often goign to take forever to go at this rate im thinking.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon, I just caught this post of yours as I've been out all day. Some air pumps are adjustable. I presume yours isn't or you wouldn't be asking how, or if it is, just increase the adjustment of course to get more air. Barring that, you could get a three-way and a two-way valve and add another airstone with complete control of both (the line from the pump goes to the three-way valve first), or replace your existing airstone with a larger one. If you have just so much air pressure from your pump and no more, raising the airstone off the bottom so that its several inches from the surface will give you a lot more air from the airstone as there is now much less water pressure acting against the pump. Some filters (such as the Wisper filters) are adjustable as well; turn it up to maximum flow to get the most turbulance out of it. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6158 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  what if you havea ll those fish plus the drwarf frogs.. im worried abou tthem.... i have some room like  2 pitchers left room at the top i could add some more salt tonight shoudl I... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 tsp of salt sounds like a lot of salt, too much for tetras and catfish (cories, ottos, etc).  That is just my opinion, but I have never seen more than 1 tsp/gallon suggested, and I think that is too much. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6159 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon, Its safe to add one tsp. per gallon each day, for two days; total -- 2 tsps. per gallon. Once at that concentration, if you do water changes (and the water should be the same temperature), you have to replace the salt taken out. If you do a 25% water change, you have to put back 1/2 tsp. of salt per gallon. If making a 50% water change, you have to put back 1 tsp. of salt per gallon (or half of the 2 tsps. per gallon you had in the tank). Remember to first disolve the salt before adding it to the tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6160 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Salt + frog is probably not a good idea.  I wouldn't add any salt.  If you have added some, probably a good idea not to add more.  Do a 25% water change tomorrow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    what if you havea ll those fish plus the drwarf frogs.. im worried abou tthem.... i have some room like  2 pitchers left room at the top i could add some more salt tonight shoudl I... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6161 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ok but for how many days do i add the one tsp per gallon and then once i get to the max of 2 tsp per gallon how long do i keep it there before i start weaning it off... thanks so much your a great help.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon, Its safe to add one tsp. per gallon each day, for two days; total -- 2 tsps. per gallon. Once at that concentration, if you do water changes (and the water should be the same temperature), you have to replace the salt taken out. If you do a 25% water change, you have to put back 1/2 tsp. of salt per gallon. If making a 50% water change, you have to put back 1 tsp. of salt per gallon (or half of the 2 tsps. per gallon you had in the tank). Remember to first disolve the salt before adding it to the tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6162 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: ich issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon, You can safely add 50% of the salt treatment (one tsp. per gallon) in one shot -- on the first day. After 24 hours, you can add the remaining 1 tsp, per gallon (again, in one shot -- at one time rather than spreading the salt out any further during the day). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6163 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    serious.. wow.. i was wondering cuase they were not liking the high temp i think they all 3 on the bottom gravel.. when noramlll they are like floating everywhere.. so this means i have to go to meds then... oh boy.. which kind now.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Salt + frog is probably not a good idea.  I wouldn't add any salt.  If you have added some, probably a good idea not to add more.  Do a 25% water change tomorrow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6164 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I still think that is a dangerous amount of salt, especially for the frog.  I was accused of being obsessed with salt on another group.  I wish that guy was here now!  I just want Shannon to know that too much salt is deadly to freshwater fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shannon, Its safe to add one tsp. per gallon each day, for two days; total -- 2 tsps. per gallon. Once at that concentration, if you do water changes (and the water should be the same temperature), you have to replace the salt taken out. If you do a 25% water change, you have to put back 1/2 tsp. of salt per gallon. If making a 50% water change, you have to put back 1 tsp. of salt per gallon (or half of the 2 tsps. per gallon you had in the tank). Remember to first disolve the salt before adding it to the tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6165 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks i think i am not diong the salt... there is 3 tsp in there now with 20 gallons.. they seem fine.. acutally seem very happy.. i thinkt he whole having a bit in there is not such a abad idea but i think ill be giogn to the store and buying some meds... any ideas safe for tetras cories frogs grouaumi... shanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I still think that is a dangerous amount of salt, especially for the frog.  I was accused of being obsessed with salt on another group.  I wish that guy was here now!  I just want Shannon to know that too much salt is deadly to freshwater fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6166 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meds are a lot worse than high temperatures for frogs.  Can you move the frogs to their own container for a while?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6167 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would just keep up water changes, temps at about 80-83° (which needs no extra aeration, the capacity to hold O2 doesn't change in a huge way from the high 70's to the low 80's), and go ahead and add one more tsp of salt to make it 4 tsp for 20 gallons.  You might even go ahead and make it 5 tsp for 20 gallons and the frogs could be ok.  I just think I remember them being sensitive to salt and meds, especially ich meds.  If the heat was hurting the frogs, I figure they would go to the top to try to get cooler air, but I might be wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks i think i am not diong the salt... there is 3 tsp in there now with 20 gallons.. they seem fine.. acutally seem very happy.. i thinkt he whole having a bit in there is not such a abad idea but i think ill be giogn to the store and buying some meds... any ideas safe for tetras cories frogs grouaumi... shanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6168 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon, I did not know you had frogs. This does change things a bit. While I do not believe the amount of salt you've added should do any harm to them, it may be a good idea to remove the salt tomorrow by doing water changes just to play it safe for the frogs, and just go with increased heat which should, as well, be effective. At this time, unless things have changed, it appears that there is presently a very mild infestation of Ich in your tank if you have no more than the one spot on the Bleeding Heart Tetra. This should be fairly easy to get rid of with heat, and wouldn't seem to be very much of a threat to your fish at this stage. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6169 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          no i mean i dont know where to put them i dont have anythign to put them in... and catching them i think would be like im possible lol... this is nuts... its like nothing will work.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Meds are a lot worse than high temperatures for frogs.  Can you move the frogs to their own container for a while?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6170 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that souinds like a plan.. is this giogn to get rid of the ich though.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would just keep up water changes, temps at about 80-83° (which needs no extra aeration, the capacity to hold O2 doesn't change in a huge way from the high 70's to the low 80's), and go ahead and add one more tsp of salt to make it 4 tsp for 20 gallons.  You might even go ahead and make it 5 tsp for 20 gallons and the frogs could be ok.  I just think I remember them being sensitive to salt and meds, especially ich meds.  If the heat was hurting the frogs, I figure they would go to the top to try to get cooler air, but I might be wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6171 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: salted frogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just found where I remembered hearing about salt and frogs.  CLICK HERE  They say it is safe to have up to 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) of salt for each 4 gallons of water, but they keep 1 tbs/5 gallons of water. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6172 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: ich and salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The purpose of salt in ich treatment should not be to kill the ich.  That would take so much salt that it would kill the fish pretty quickly.  Salt is for only one thing, and that is to help build up the slime coat.  Only small levels of salt are needed to do that.  Ich is not deadly, and it is not something to concern yourself with.  Fish are killed by the real disease, which is bad water or some type of physical stress.  Ich is only a warning that something is wrong and it will go away on its own once the source of the stress is gone.  That means water changes if it is water quality, or just waiting if it is because you moved the fish to a new tank.  Ich is over estimated.  I keep reading in books, magazines, and the "internets" about how ich is the most dreaded thing for aquarists.  I don't believe it is really as bad as they say it is.  Now if the ich covers every centimeter of the fish it is surely a problem that needs more sever treatment, but if you catch it early it is no problem.  Water changes! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry, had to say it.  I get energetic when I watch political debates! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6173 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: salted frogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ok good to know.. that means i can do 12 tsp for my 20 gallon.. but is thsi worth it to kill the ich.. thanks for the cite very good info.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just found where I remembered hearing about salt and frogs.  CLICK HERE  They say it is safe to have up to 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) of salt for each 4 gallons of water, but they keep 1 tbs/5 gallons of water. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6174 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich and salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              its ok i knew what you were saying but i get engerzied and jsut type lol... so im thinking addinf of the new fish in the tank is what did it... the fish itslef looks pale.. so that concerns me... but the water is good was good.. but ill keep diong what your saying.. one question again lol.. if they jsut need a better slime coat then why cant i keep adding the stress coat.. ... just wondering.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The purpose of salt in ich treatment should not be to kill the ich.  That would take so much salt that it would kill the fish pretty quickly.  Salt is for only one thing, and that is to help build up the slime coat.  Only small levels of salt are needed to do that.  Ich is not deadly, and it is not something to concern yourself with.  Fish are killed by the real disease, which is bad water or some type of physical stress.  Ich is only a warning that something is wrong and it will go away on its own once the source of the stress is gone.  That means water changes if it is water quality, or just waiting if it is because you moved the fish to a new tank.  Ich is over estimated.  I keep reading in books, magazines, and the "internets" about how ich is the most dreaded thing for aquarists.  I don't believe it is really as bad as they say it is.  Now if the ich covers every centimeter of the fish it is surely a problem that needs more sever treatment, but if you catch it early it is no problem.  Water changes! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry, had to say it.  I get energetic when I watch political debates! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6175 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: update wed night started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ray im going to wait till i hear from you again cause of the posts that have been happening and finding out that there isnt as much danger on the frogs as we once thought... but to clarify i have one fish the bleeding heart that has multiple spots like 10 15 maybe... as soon as i hear back ill see what i should do.. so far i have the 3 tsps in there everyone seems fine... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, I did not know you had frogs. This does change things a bit. While I do not believe the amount of salt you've added should do any harm to them, it may be a good idea to remove the salt tomorrow by doing water changes just to play it safe for the frogs, and just go with increased heat which should, as well, be effective. At this time, unless things have changed, it appears that there is presently a very mild infestation of Ich in your tank if you have no more than the one spot on the Bleeding Heart Tetra. This should be fairly easy to get rid of with heat, and wouldn't seem to be very much of a threat to your fish at this stage. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6176 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: salted frogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick, Thanks much for this post on frogs; its quite informative for all of us. I knew frogs were somewhat sensitive to salt, but did not know exactly how much they could take. Looks like Shannon can use the 12 tsps. of salt after all, which should be enough for its purpose and somewhat less stressful on the cory's, although just to mention, I've had cory's up to the 2 tsps. per gal. with no problems or I wouldn't have suggested it. More people than most of us realize include frogs in their aquariums. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6177 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: update wed night started treatment for ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, Agreed, there isn't as much danger to the frogs as was of first concern, due to Patrick's latest info on them. It now seems safe to use at least the 12 tsps. of salt (total) per 20 gallons and this amount is safe to add tonight. Keep increasing the heat to 86o, slowly. Were you able to increase the aeration in any way? The additional spots on the bleeding heart tetra doesn't sound good, but don't give up hope yet. The heat treatment has a very good success rate. One thing -- not knowing what kind of tolerance the frogs have to heat, I'm a little concerned (hopefully, unduly), but is there a way you could could cover the tank with just a screen-type cover, like on a reptile tank? Although you will get more evaporation, this would give the frogs a more comfortable atmosphere to breath. But being from the tropics, it would seem that the frogs should not mind warm moist air. I presume you now have a full cover on the tank. Patrick, would you happen to know how the frogs will do with increased heat?  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6178 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: update wed night started treatment for ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              well i put 3 more tsp in tongiht that is total of 6 will do the other 6 tom after water change but then i guess it would actually be 9 oh lordy anyhow i am working on something for the top of the tank.. but i dont know... wish i had something im giong to look arouind... thanks again for your help.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, Agreed, there isn't as much danger to the frogs as was of first concern, due to Patrick's latest info on them. It now seems safe to use at least the 12 tsps. of salt (total) per 20 gallons and this amount is safe to add tonight. Keep increasing the heat to 86o, slowly. Were you able to increase the aeration in any way? The additional spots on the bleeding heart tetra doesn't sound good, but don't give up hope yet. The heat treatment has a very good success rate. One thing -- not knowing what kind of tolerance the frogs have to heat, I'm a little concerned (hopefully, unduly), but is there a way you could could cover the tank with just a screen-type cover, like on a reptile tank? Although you will get more evaporation, this would give the frogs a more comfortable atmosphere to breath. But being from the tropics, it would seem that the frogs should not mind warm moist air. I presume you now have a full cover on the tank. Patrick, would you happen to know how the frogs will do with increased heat?  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6179 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The fish was fine yesterday, and has only been in the tank a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of days. I removed it because if something IS contagious, I didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              want it to be with the others any longer than necessary. Also, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it dies...and it more than likely will...it won't "disappear" in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank. All the others seem fine, so I guess I should be happy with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sigh...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > A small container would'nt have as much oxygen as a full tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              clean water. Could be an infection, of something like physical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              damage, parasites or genetic anomoly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > So guess there's nothing I can do for it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I hate it when I feel my hands are tied, even with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > a $1.99 fishie.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > :~(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > sounds like a swim bladder infection. common to occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > in weaker fish when the nitrate levels are high, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > it could have been where ever you bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Is there anything that can be done for a fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > having balance trouble...spinning with head down for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > a smaller container. Is there anything that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6180 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: algae issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hi all. i'm having a bit of a problem. several weeks ago, i lost my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pleco, mick. i think due to old age and some stress from a move about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              months back. i meant to get another pleco, but didn't get around to it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              until the other day when i got the mystery pleco i put up in my album.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i just got a new light strip, a compact flourescent that's putting out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WAY more light than my old one, much to the joy of my plants. now, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              went away last weekend and i left the strip on (i haven't gotten around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to purchasing a grounded timer, i will before i go away this weekend
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              though) and when i got home i had a HUGE bloom of beard algae and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other algae on the glass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i've added my new pleco, and he's cleaned most of the glass (along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my ottos) and i scraped down the rest and things are back to normal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              except that my amazon sword plant has this coating of beard algae. does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anyone have any idea how to get rid of it? does anything eat that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              stuff? i'd prefer a natural approach (like shrimp or some such.) any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ideas would be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6181 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: started treatment for ich but need clafi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Let the 3 tsp salt be in the tank as it should be enough and safe for the fish to be de-stressed. I don’t suggest using any medication as the temperature thing works well. Usually 3-5 days at high temperature things should be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just wait and see and do not panic. As Patrick said that Ich itself is not lethal but stuff we try to do to cure it could be more lethal then Ich itself. Even without any treatment Ich can itself go away if the fish are strong as explained in detail by Mark. Ich is more of a warning of more serious problems to come if it infects a well settle fish in an healthy environment. If new fish are infected, it is probably just a normal course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 14 October 2004 04:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] started treatment for ich but need clafi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thanks i think i am not diong the salt... there is 3 tsp in there now with 20 gallons.. they seem fine.. acutally seem very happy.. i thinkt he whole having a bit in there is not such a abad idea but i think ill be giogn to the store and buying some meds... any ideas safe for tetras cories frogs grouaumi... shanon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I still think that is a dangerous amount of salt, especially for the frog.  I was accused of being obsessed with salt on another group.  I wish that guy was here now!  I just want Shannon to know that too much salt is deadly to freshwater fish.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6182 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: 2 questions started treatment for ich but need clafi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so you think 3 days at like 86 i am at 84 now and added 3 more tsp of salt.. and was giogn to add 6 more which i think youll understand why when you get further in some of the posts.. i am still confused on how the heat is helping... and why a load of strss coat wouldnt do that job... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Let the 3 tsp salt be in the tank as it should be enough and safe for the fish to be de-stressed. I don’t suggest using any medication as the temperature thing works well. Usually 3-5 days at high temperature things should be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just wait and see and do not panic. As Patrick said that Ich itself is not lethal but stuff we try to do to cure it could be more lethal then Ich itself. Even without any treatment Ich can itself go away if the fish are strong as explained in detail by Mark. Ich is more of a warning of more serious problems to come if it infects a well settle fish in an healthy environment. If new fish are infected, it is probably just a normal course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6183 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich but need clafi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been thru the rest of the thread briefly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You must be aware that higher temperature increases the metabolisms of all aquatic animals (cold blooded that is). At higher temperature, the life cycle of the Ich parasite also increases many folds. The process of the parasite creating spores and distributing its young ones in the water to attach to hosts (fish) is sped up so fast that most of the young ones (could be larvae) die before they find a suitable host. The parent’s life cycle also speeds up and where its actual life span was 5-6 days, it will be reduced to a mere couple of days as an example. This is why the high temperature system works so well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WRT salt and Stress coat. Both are stuff that reduce stress and help buildup of slime coat, but salt along with that also creates a bit of a hostile environment for the Ich parasite and other fungus. Needless to say that higher concentrations create a hostile environment for even fish and plants so it should be used sparingly.1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons will have more effect then no salt at all. Salt is a much debated topic but traditionally there have been many benefits of salt that have been listed. Some of these are: they help regulate osmotic pressure within the fish body and the water, maybe helping the stuff from fish to come out and some stuff going in. They also help relieve fish suffering from Nitrite poisoning (Brown blood disease), They probably also help in clearing up of gills in some way. These are all theoretical aspects for me as I am not qualified enough to be able to test them but the bottom line is: Salt helps in many ways and when a suffering fish is subjected to concentrations as low as 1tsp per 5 gallons, it shows remarkable improvement. Higher concentrations have a better effect on more chronic diseases like ulcers and fungus etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 14 October 2004 10:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] 2 questions started treatment for ich but need clafi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so you think 3 days at like 86 i am at 84 now and added 3 more tsp of salt.. and was giogn to add 6 more which i think youll understand why when you get further in some of the posts.. i am still confused on how the heat is helping... and why a load of strss coat wouldnt do that job... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Let the 3 tsp salt be in the tank as it should be enough and safe for the fish to be de-stressed. I don’t suggest using any medication as the temperature thing works well. Usually 3-5 days at high temperature things should be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just wait and see and do not panic. As Patrick said that Ich itself is not lethal but stuff we try to do to cure it could be more lethal then Ich itself. Even without any treatment Ich can itself go away if the fish are strong as explained in detail by Mark. Ich is more of a warning of more serious problems to come if it infects a well settle fish in an healthy environment. If new fish are infected, it is probably just a normal course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6184 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so basically then the ich that is always there will go off the fish cuase of the salt... or what i thought that the salt makes teh slime coat back to it full potential there fore the ich dont really matter.. my one fish doesnt look so good he swims fine and all just seems almost colorless... i guess i have a long 3 days to see what happens... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been thru the rest of the thread briefly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You must be aware that higher temperature increases the metabolisms of all aquatic animals (cold blooded that is). At higher temperature, the life cycle of the Ich parasite also increases many folds. The process of the parasite creating spores and distributing its young ones in the water to attach to hosts (fish) is sped up so fast that most of the young ones (could be larvae) die before they find a suitable host. The parent’s life cycle also speeds up and where its actual life span was 5-6 days, it will be reduced to a mere couple of days as an example. This is why the high temperature system works so well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WRT salt and Stress coat. Both are stuff that reduce stress and help buildup of slime coat, but salt along with that also creates a bit of a hostile environment for the Ich parasite and other fungus. Needless to say that higher concentrations create a hostile environment for even fish and plants so it should be used sparingly.1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons will have more effect then no salt at all. Salt is a much debated topic but traditionally there have been many benefits of salt that have been listed. Some of these are: they help regulate osmotic pressure within the fish body and the water, maybe helping the stuff from fish to come out and some stuff going in. They also help relieve fish suffering from Nitrite poisoning (Brown blood disease), They probably also help in clearing up of gills in some way. These are all theoretical aspects for me as I am not qualified enough to be able to test them but the bottom line is: Salt helps in many ways and when a suffering fish is subjected to concentrations as low as 1tsp per 5 gallons, it shows remarkable improvement. Higher concentrations have a better effect on more chronic diseases like ulcers and fungus etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6185 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The slimecoat production is done by the fish itself and not salt/stresscoat. These things help reduce stress on the fish so it’s immune system can build the protection the fish needs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 14 October 2004 10:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] 2 questions started treatment for ich b...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so basically then the ich that is always there will go off the fish cuase of the salt... or what i thought that the salt makes teh slime coat back to it full potential there fore the ich dont really matter.. my one fish doesnt look so good he swims fine and all just seems almost colorless... i guess i have a long 3 days to see what happens... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been thru the rest of the thread briefly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You must be aware that higher temperature increases the metabolisms of all aquatic animals (cold blooded that is). At higher temperature, the life cycle of the Ich parasite also increases many folds. The process of the parasite creating spores and distributing its young ones in the water to attach to hosts (fish) is sped up so fast that most of the young ones (could be larvae) die before they find a suitable host. The parent’s life cycle also speeds up and where its actual life span was 5-6 days, it will be reduced to a mere couple of days as an example. This is why the high temperature system works so well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WRT salt and Stress coat. Both are stuff that reduce stress and help buildup of slime coat, but salt along with that also creates a bit of a hostile environment for the Ich parasite and other fungus. Needless to say that higher concentrations create a hostile environment for even fish and plants so it should be used sparingly.1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons will have more effect then no salt at all. Salt is a much debated topic but traditionally there have been many benefits of salt that have been listed. Some of these are: they help regulate osmotic pressure within the fish body and the water, maybe helping the stuff from fish to come out and some stuff going in. They also help relieve fish suffering from Nitrite poisoning (Brown blood disease), They probably also help in clearing up of gills in some way. These are all theoretical aspects for me as I am not qualified enough to be able to test them but the bottom line is: Salt helps in many ways and when a suffering fish is subjected to concentrations as low as 1tsp per 5 gallons, it shows remarkable improvement. Higher concentrations have a better effect on more chronic diseases like ulcers and fungus etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6186 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, The heat helps in two ways. (1.) The heat speeds up the life cycle of the Ich to a 48 hour period (also speeds up the metabolism of the fish giving them a bit more strength). (2.) Ich cannot reproduce above 85 degrees, so start dying off on there own after 48 hours as cannot have reinfestations -- they are not multiplying. The salt promotes the protective body slime on the fish, so the Ich find it more difficult to attach themselves to the fish. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6187 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim, I've read many times that the salt presence stimulates the production of body slime by the fish (with the fish producing the slime faster than normal). So, in effect, the salt indirectly helps with the production of slime because it stimulates the fish into producing it.  Is this what you are saying? Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6188 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 2 questions started treatment for ich b...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes Ray,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I did mean the same in other words ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 14 October 2004 13:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] 2 questions started treatment for ich b...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim, I've read many times that the salt presence stimulates the production of body slime by the fish (with the fish producing the slime faster than normal). So, in effect, the salt indirectly helps with the production of slime because it stimulates the fish into producing it.  Is this what you are saying? Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6189 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: algae issue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi! American flagfish, Jordanella floridae, relish thread and beard algae. Try to get only females or juveniles as sexually mature males tend to guard algae carpets to lure females for mating and as a nest for eggs. Females don't have red and green on their bodies and have a black spot on the dorsal fin. Feed sparingly with fishfood and they'll turn on the algae. They won't harm the Amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Rod

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hi all. i'm having a bit of a problem. several weeks ago, i lost my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pleco, mick. i think due to old age and some stress from a move about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              months back. i meant to get another pleco, but didn't get around to it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              until the other day when i got the mystery pleco i put up in my album.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i just got a new light strip, a compact flourescent that's putting out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WAY more light than my old one, much to the joy of my plants. now, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              went away last weekend and i left the strip on (i haven't gotten around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to purchasing a grounded timer, i will before i go away this weekend
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              though) and when i got home i had a HUGE bloom of beard algae and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other algae on the glass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i've added my new pleco, and he's cleaned most of the glass (along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              my ottos) and i scraped down the rest and things are back to normal,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              except that my amazon sword plant has this coating of beard algae. does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anyone have any idea how to get rid of it? does anything eat that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              stuff? i'd prefer a natural approach (like shrimp or some such.) any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ideas would be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6190 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich and salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I love stress coat, but I've never seen anyone who said they had proof about whether or not their claims are true. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                its ok i knew what you were saying but i get engerzied and jsut type lol... so im thinking addinf of the new fish in the tank is what did it... the fish itslef looks pale.. so that concerns me... but the water is good was good.. but ill keep diong what your saying.. one question again lol.. if they jsut need a better slime coat then why cant i keep adding the stress coat.. ... just wondering.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6191 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A carnivorous fish with a mouth hole the size of an adult ghost shrimp can and will hunt for ghost shrimp. I've seen my breeding pair of kribensis hunt down and dismember shrimp. If you have plenty of plants and hiding places for shrimp, don't worry about your fish eventually eating every shrimp in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Diamond tetras tend to feed from the surface and middle levels of the water column. but they may be able to ambush a few baby shrimp you'll eventually have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If tank volume is limited, go for shrimp. Not only can they clean the gravel for uneaten food and debris, they will also clean plant leaves, the water's surface and sometimes the aquarium walls. But if you can, go for both corys and shrimp. When it comes to waste though, I think shrimp will put out more waste in proportion to corys: they can eat vegetable matter, fish waste and uneaten food. only, their poop is finer and more easily broken down, taken up by the filter or sunk in between the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rod

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > How big do fish have to be to be a problem for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ghost shrimp?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The biggest I have will eventually be the Diamond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tetras, although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they are babies now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Also... Which do ya'll feel are better at their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "cleaning duties",
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ghost shrimp or cory cats?  I'm assuming that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cories would put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > out more waste than the shrimp...right?  I'm needing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a "crew" for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the new 25 Tall Eclipse tank.  I have five Ottos "on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > duty" for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > algae.  I've got a dozen Diamonds in the tank, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > how many cories or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ghosts will be needed?  Thanks once more for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6192 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't share the same experience. My tanks are acidic: the snails' shells often turn white and brittle in time but my shrimps don't mind it and multiply despite predation. In the wild where I was able to get some, during the dry season, they live in leaf-choked small pools, the tannin turning the water quite brown and probably acidic. Other factors may be at work, preventing you from keeping ghost shrimp. I'm not sure what factors these would be...they seem to be pretty resilient and adaptable creatures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rod

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     I've never been able to keep ghost shrimp alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > month.  They need certain things in their water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (calcium, higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hardness levels, iodine) that my water doesn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a near-by source of marine suppliments that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > those things in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them.  I don't want to spend the money to buy them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > either. :)  They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are about 4 for a dollar at the lwm (local w-mart),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but I've given
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > up on them for now.  There is a group for freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > shrimp on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > yahoo.  groups.yahoo.com/group/freshwatershrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just thought I would let y'all know about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6193 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for your input, Rod...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have one surviving shrimp in my 12 gallon, but I'll definitely try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more in the 25 gallon. I have 5 Ottos in the 25, as well. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                see them working their little fins off, cleaning the algae on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plants and they "hang out" on the aquarium walls. If the shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                reproduce, so be it. Don't want a tank full of them, so it might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a GOOD thing if there was some "live food" for the Diamonds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eventually.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Rodrigo Jr.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I don't share the same experience. My tanks are acidic: the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                snails' shells often turn white and brittle in time but my shrimps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                don't mind it and multiply despite predation. In the wild where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                was able to get some, during the dry season, they live in leaf-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                choked small pools, the tannin turning the water quite brown and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                probably acidic. Other factors may be at work, preventing you from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                keeping ghost shrimp. I'm not sure what factors these would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be...they seem to be pretty resilient and adaptable creatures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Rod
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I've never been able to keep ghost shrimp alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for more than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > month. They need certain things in their water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > (calcium, higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hardness levels, iodine) that my water doesn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a near-by source of marine suppliments that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those things in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > them. I don't want to spend the money to buy them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > either. :) They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are about 4 for a dollar at the lwm (local w-mart),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but I've given
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > up on them for now. There is a group for freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > shrimp on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > yahoo. groups.yahoo.com/group/freshwatershrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Just thought I would let y'all know about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6194 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Thanks.. 2 questions started treatment for ich b...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                t otally make sense.. you know i have to say i spent like over 300 bucks on fish books on amazon and the books were ok.. they have nice pictures bu ti have learned a lot more from this group than anywhere.. in my 2 disease books it doesnt go into this depth doesnt relaly even say how to treat the ich... thanks.. guys.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, The heat helps in two ways. (1.) The heat speeds up the life cycle of the Ich to a 48 hour period (also speeds up the metabolism of the fish giving them a bit more strength). (2.) Ich cannot reproduce above 85 degrees, so start dying off on there own after 48 hours as cannot have reinfestations -- they are not multiplying. The salt promotes the protective body slime on the fish, so the Ich find it more difficult to attach themselves to the fish. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6195 From: paul helms Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ich and salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i think it is great when ading fish or at times of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stress, but nothing helps the slime coat more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                healthy water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I love stress coat, but I've never seen anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > who said they had proof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about whether or not their claims are true.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > its ok i knew what you were saying but i get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > engerzied and jsut type lol... so im thinking addinf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of the new fish in the tank is what did it... the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish itslef looks pale.. so that concerns me... but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the water is good was good.. but ill keep diong what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your saying.. one question again lol.. if they jsut
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > need a better slime coat then why cant i keep adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the stress coat.. ... just wondering.. shannon




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6196 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just thought I would add a bit more on mine..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My swordtails are what eat the shrimp in my 55 gallon tank. I have dwarf puffers, and while they are small, they also hunt and eat the shrimp. My betta flared at them for a while, but never ate one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A friend of mine got some and added them to her 55 gallon tank. Her angels laid eggs, and she put them in a breeding net while she set up her fry tank. Well, the shrimp climbed in the net and ate the eggs and the "wigglers" who had hatched at that point. I have the shrimp in my fry tank, but I also have swordtail fry which are larger and free swimming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6197 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ich and salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yea but at the price it's worth it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You do know the main ingredient is Aloe Vera. Seems fitting as when we lived in Florida we were exposed to the sun and about 5 times a year even with sunblock we would get them sunburns. The purist the aloe the better it worked on not only relieving the pain from sunburn but also *sometimes* cleared the sunburn up all together and no peeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyways, I too find it very useful and cost effective.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  All the best Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ich and salt

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I love stress coat, but I've never seen anyone who said they had proof about whether or not their claims are true. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  its ok i knew what you were saying but i get engerzied and jsut type lol... so im thinking addinf of the new fish in the tank is what did it... the fish itslef looks pale.. so that concerns me... but the water is good was good.. but ill keep diong what your saying.. one question again lol.. if they jsut need a better slime coat then why cant i keep adding the stress coat.. ... just wondering.. shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6198 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Thanks.. 2 questions started treatment ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon, Glad we (I trust I can speak for Nim, Patrick and Tyler as well) could be of some help; it is our pleasure. While none of us know everything, it appears that between us we have more than a few years experience in the hobby. As you are not completely through the treatment, let us know how its going and if and when there are any signs of improvement. As for the Bleeding Heart Tetra, I have been thinking, since that is the fish that got the worst of the Ich and it was an original inhabitant which so far as we know hasn't suffered any obvious stress, it seems to me that in light of this fish paling out, it very possible this fish is fighting some other malady with the Ich being a secondary infection. I believe possible stress (chilling?) on the newly introduced Zebras has initiated the Ich, but with those fish not actually getting the disease even though they were possibly stressed (which is my belief), and an original inhabitant contracting the Ich, this tells me that this original fish (Bleeding Heart Tetra) must have been first weakened by something in order for it to have come down with Ich before (or without) the Zebras getting it. Zebras seem prone to getting Ich from being stressed/chilled and they may have activated the Ich spores but apparently never contracted it or at least you did not mention it. For an original inhabitant of an aquarium to get Ich before a stressed, newly introduced fish is unusual. I'm hoping the best for your Bleeding Heart Tetra and hope it pulls through, but without further insight, I really can't say what else you can do for it, if it does have some other illness. On another note,you mentioned buying books on Amazon and I'm curious -- did you ever get the Innes book ("Exotic Tropical Fishes")? Getting back to salt, yes Stress Coat is advertised as promoting the fish's slime coat and I use it from time to time as I believe it as fact that it does do that job even though I've never actually seen proof, but have taken their claims for granted in good faith. After all, has anyone ever seen the increase of body slime produced by a fish. A fish so treated however, does seem to adjust faster to adverse conditions, injuries, etc., which does indicate that the product is doing what it claims. With Ich however, I hold by the (two-fold) use of salt to induce the production of body slime and, although there may be some controversy, I believe that salt additionally does promote a hostile environment for Ich. Ray     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6199 From: rain_a13 Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Some question about chiller... (long one, sorry)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am from Indonesia and I have some question regarding aquarium chiller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Let's say we are going to cool a 1000 litre of water, just how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  BTU is needed? How do you calculate that? I am using the formula that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  says for every 1 pound of water it takes 1 BTU for 1 degree F
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  temperature drop (or is it like, +/- 4 BTU needed to drop 1 degree C
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  for 1 kg of water in one hour?). Because here in Indonesia we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  using Celcius for our temperature measurement, so I have a bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  confusion in the number.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Another question, how do you calculate the diameter of the copper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  piping for the evaporator? Is it 1/4", 5/16" or 3/8"? For instance, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  am using a 1pk compressor capable of 9000 BTU, then I am using 5/16"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  copper pipe, 10 m long, is it gonna work? Which is better in term of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  pipe diameter?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry for the long questions, I tried to search on the net but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  couldnt found the formula in celcius, and by merely converting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  number straight from Fahrenheit to Celcius only confuse me even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks a lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6200 From: Steve Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Catfish 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone here going to Catfish 2004 this weekend?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gwapa
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6201 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: answering questions and one more question... started treatment ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to answer some of your questions.. the bleedingheart is the only one with the ich now i think i saw a few spots now on another bleeding heart but the first one is still pale yet seems fine... so far i have 9 tsp in the tank and am getting ready to add the last 3 tsp of salt... now i am curious do i stil have to do water changes over the next few days... or do i jsut let them... the tank is at like 85 which totally freaks me out i swear i havent watched that tank so much i am constantly counting fish lol... and as for the books i spent so much on the amazons ones before hearing about the innes one that i have put that on my x mas list heheeh hoping my mom will get that for me... so i will eargly wait for someoen to let me know about water changes of the next few days.. thanks shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon, Glad we (I trust I can speak for Nim, Patrick and Tyler as well) could be of some help; it is our pleasure. While none of us know everything, it appears that between us we have more than a few years experience in the hobby. As you are not completely through the treatment, let us know how its going and if and when there are any signs of improvement. As for the Bleeding Heart Tetra, I have been thinking, since that is the fish that got the worst of the Ich and it was an original inhabitant which so far as we know hasn't suffered any obvious stress, it seems to me that in light of this fish paling out, it very possible this fish is fighting some other malady with the Ich being a secondary infection. I believe possible stress (chilling?) on the newly introduced Zebras has initiated the Ich, but with those fish not actually getting the disease even though they were possibly stressed (which is my belief), and an original inhabitant contracting the Ich, this tells me that this original fish (Bleeding Heart Tetra) must have been first weakened by something in order for it to have come down with Ich before (or without) the Zebras getting it. Zebras seem prone to getting Ich from being stressed/chilled and they may have activated the Ich spores but apparently never contracted it or at least you did not mention it. For an original inhabitant of an aquarium to get Ich before a stressed, newly introduced fish is unusual. I'm hoping the best for your Bleeding Heart Tetra and hope it pulls through, but without further insight, I really can't say what else you can do for it, if it does have some other illness. On another note,you mentioned buying books on Amazon and I'm curious -- did you ever get the Innes book ("Exotic Tropical Fishes")? Getting back to salt, yes Stress Coat is advertised as promoting the fish's slime coat and I use it from time to time as I believe it as fact that it does do that job even though I've never actually seen proof, but have taken their claims for granted in good faith. After all, has anyone ever seen the increase of body slime produced by a fish. A fish so treated however, does seem to adjust faster to adverse conditions, injuries, etc., which does indicate that the product is doing what it claims. With Ich however, I hold by the (two-fold) use of salt to induce the production of body slime and, although there may be some controversy, I believe that salt additionally does promote a hostile environment for Ich. Ray     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6202 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The main thing now is to keep the temperature up there. Try to notch it up one more degree to 86. For the few days remaining in the treatment, water changes are not that important for the time being, unless for some unknown reason the nitrites start rising which there's really no reason for. But always good to keep tabs on. After treatment you can resume normal water changing. The high temperature (plus the salt) should see results with the Ich in the next couple of days. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6203 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: as of thursday night answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ok dokie... i notched it up again... which was good cuase it was lingering at 84... i am so nervous about this whole thing... i bet it was the putting the new fish in which if i think abou tit is odd. ucase i have added new fish steadily as the tetras were the original with the gourami and cories... but anyhow... the zebras are way calm and the killifish that are like anti socail dont bother anyone so i hope they are not the culprits... ill keep you posted through the weekend of the progress.. as today i guess techinially was day one so sunday being day 4 at night time i should start taporing the heat i think ill tapor heat then do some water changes to get the salt out does that sound ok... im thinking though imight keep up like 1 tsp of salt per 5 gallons cuase i think it is something that might help what do you all think... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The main thing now is to keep the temperature up there. Try to notch it up one more degree to 86. For the few days remaining in the treatment, water changes are not that important for the time being, unless for some unknown reason the nitrites start rising which there's really no reason for. But always good to keep tabs on. After treatment you can resume normal water changing. The high temperature (plus the salt) should see results with the Ich in the next couple of days. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6204 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: how long do fish live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  well with all the drama in my tank right now got me thinking how long do fish live do certain species last longer.. or is it jsut based on care... i have been searching my books and havent come across anything yet... i guess when you do this hobby for a long time you konw what lasts and what doesnt.. but me being new i am clueless.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6205 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: how long do fish live

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Various species have different ages. Most killifish have an age of 1-1.5 yrs. Most tetras live for 4-5 yrs, barbs 4-7 yrs, Goldfish 15-25 yrs, Betta 2-3.5 yrs. Clown loaches 15 yrs Etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A lot depends on the temperature they are kept at. Eg. A betta kept at 28 degrees C will have a shorter lifespan then the one kept at 24 degrees C. It is not that it is diying before getting old but that’s the way cold blooded creatures work. Higher temperature means higher metabolism and hence faster growth and faster ageing. That said, there is a temperature tolerance limit for all fish as well so it does not mean that keeping a Killifish at 12 degrees C will make it live longer. Below their designed temperature the metabolism slows down to an extent that the body stops functioning normally and can develop disorders etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 15 October 2004 09:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] how long do fish live

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  well with all the drama in my tank right now got me thinking how long do fish live do certain species last longer.. or is it jsut based on care... i have been searching my books and havent come across anything yet... i guess when you do this hobby for a long time you konw what lasts and what doesnt.. but me being new i am clueless.. shannon



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6206 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Im so mad at myself i have been haivng the lid half up letting in more air from my fan and air for the frogs right well i was woke up from a deep sleep to this loud crash and i knew right away cauxe i forgot to put the lid down that there was a fish somewehre so i ffound it after like ripping apart my bookshelf... so it was out maybe 15 seconds.. it is like trippin out right now.. i put lots of stress coat in the water do you think i will wake up and hell be dead... has anyone had a jumper be ok... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6207 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: nim.. how long do fish live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thanks.. i feel bad for my dead barb now... he was only a year boohooo... but i have a betta going on 4 years at x mas... my zebra loach does that fit in with the clown loach as well... thanks shanon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Various species have different ages. Most killifish have an age of 1-1.5 yrs. Most tetras live for 4-5 yrs, barbs 4-7 yrs, Goldfish 15-25 yrs, Betta 2-3.5 yrs. Clown loaches 15 yrs Etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A lot depends on the temperature they are kept at. Eg. A betta kept at 28 degrees C will have a shorter lifespan then the one kept at 24 degrees C. It is not that it is diying before getting old but that’s the way cold blooded creatures work. Higher temperature means higher metabolism and hence faster growth and faster ageing. That said, there is a temperature tolerance limit for all fish as well so it does not mean that keeping a Killifish at 12 degrees C will make it live longer. Below their designed temperature the metabolism slows down to an extent that the body stops functioning normally and can develop disorders etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6208 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had a red-tailed shark that jumped out of a bucket a few years back he landed on a wooden floor. he was out about 30 seconds by the time i caught him and he was fine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 10/15/04 09:57:29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Im so mad at myself i have been haivng the lid half up letting in more air from my fan and air for the frogs right well i was woke up from a deep sleep to this loud crash and i knew right away cauxe i forgot to put the lid down that there was a fish somewehre so i ffound it after like ripping apart my bookshelf... so it was out maybe 15 seconds.. it is like trippin out right now.. i put lots of stress coat in the water do you think i will wake up and hell be dead... has anyone had a jumper be ok... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6209 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had plenty of fish jump out. They remain just fine and don’t really need any tendering after this but stress coat helps. Hope you did not overdose?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 15 October 2004 09:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Im so mad at myself i have been haivng the lid half up letting in more air from my fan and air for the frogs right well i was woke up from a deep sleep to this loud crash and i knew right away cauxe i forgot to put the lid down that there was a fish somewehre so i ffound it after like ripping apart my bookshelf... so it was out maybe 15 seconds.. it is like trippin out right now.. i put lots of stress coat in the water do you think i will wake up and hell be dead... has anyone had a jumper be ok... shannon



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6210 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the t...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  dont think i did put like one big squirt prolly the equivalant of like 10 drops or 12... she still seems on edge swimming around a lot but i guess shell be fine... sure is scary though.. and can you overdose... what would overdoesing do or be... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had plenty of fish jump out. They remain just fine and don’t really need any tendering after this but stress coat helps. Hope you did not overdose?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6211 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, the addition of the new fish, most probably the Zebras is what seems to have caused the Ich outbreak. It seems that Zebras are not especially tolerant to stresses such as slight chilling, etc. Before you start lowering the temperature Sunday evening, first make sure all the fish are completely free of any Ich spots. Then, lower the temperature g r a d u a l l y by just notching the heater down bit by bit. Keeping 1 tsp. of salt per 5 gallons is fine. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6212 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well after a disastrous night I wake to find the fish survived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My 50 gl main tank (glass) sits nicely in a spot away from all moving objects so who would think disaster could happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A glass paperweight that sits some distance from the tank fell off a shelf dropped about 8 ft, hit the edge of the couch, the energy in the fall trajectory shot it sideways and into the aquarium, the noise was slight, the results, disastrous. The whole front glass plate cracked, it went from a slight spray to losing gallons buy the minute in short time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We were able to transfer the fish , plants and filter before the tank had drained out (about 15 minutes) and thanks to the Pond were able to find 50 gallons of fresh , safe water. Of course I'm happy that we are not on a second floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well , it looks like it's time to find a new tank and this one, my paladium in the future.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope all is better for you all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6213 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: how long do fish live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  General Answer= all things living have a limiting lifespan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reality= some creatures lifespan are limited only by the time it takes to be eaten.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Why two answers so differing? That's rather easy, Predators generally have a limited lifespan because the area they patrol can only support a limited amount of predators. If the predators outnumber the amount of "Prey" species the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>system<< collapses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Humans are a classic example just for relative comparison in this case, the system works to kill off the over numbering predators with either disease, plague, drought or genetic weakness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So what the heck am I saying, well many prey species will live longer if given a proper habitat, amble food and water and eliminate as many natural dangers as you can.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Catfish or cockroaches in general can live a endless amount of time given that all bounds are eliminated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 8:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] how long do fish live

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  well with all the drama in my tank right now got me thinking how long do fish live do certain species last longer.. or is it jsut based on care... i have been searching my books and havent come across anything yet... i guess when you do this hobby for a long time you konw what lasts and what doesnt.. but me being new i am clueless.. shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6214 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  im so worried that the ich will still be there.. i bet i have a very special resistant brand of ich lol knowing me and my luck.... well ill jsut keep you posted.. thanks so mcuh shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, the addition of the new fish, most probably the Zebras is what seems to have caused the Ich outbreak. It seems that Zebras are not especially tolerant to stresses such as slight chilling, etc. Before you start lowering the temperature Sunday evening, first make sure all the fish are completely free of any Ich spots. Then, lower the temperature g r a d u a l l y by just notching the heater down bit by bit. Keeping 1 tsp. of salt per 5 gallons is fine. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6215 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  omg what a nightmare... im so sorry for you... how were you collecting the water or was it jsut giong all over the floor.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well after a disastrous night I wake to find the fish survived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My 50 gl main tank (glass) sits nicely in a spot away from all moving objects so who would think disaster could happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A glass paperweight that sits some distance from the tank fell off a shelf dropped about 8 ft, hit the edge of the couch, the energy in the fall trajectory shot it sideways and into the aquarium, the noise was slight, the results, disastrous. The whole front glass plate cracked, it went from a slight spray to losing gallons buy the minute in short time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We were able to transfer the fish , plants and filter before the tank had drained out (about 15 minutes) and thanks to the Pond were able to find 50 gallons of fresh , safe water. Of course I'm happy that we are not on a second floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well , it looks like it's time to find a new tank and this one, my paladium in the future.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope all is better for you all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6216 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is where my treatment method differs.  To me, water changes are the key to the treatment.  Head is second important, and salt is third most important.  But without water changes, the problem isn't solved.  True treatment of ich requires near-perfect water conditions.   That means water changes every day.  Turning up heat to over 80° is important, too, but if water changes aren't done it won't make as much difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The main thing now is to keep the temperature up there. Try to notch it up one more degree to 86. For the few days remaining in the treatment, water changes are not that important for the time being, unless for some unknown reason the nitrites start rising which there's really no reason for. But always good to keep tabs on. After treatment you can resume normal water changing. The high temperature (plus the salt) should see results with the Ich in the next couple of days. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6217 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, that's a good one for the archives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jumpers survive, stress coat all that stuff added , but mostly observation and "RELAX". Over reaction sometimes is worse than under reaction. Sort of like the houseplant that is worried about seems to always die off whereas the PLANT that is almost ignored seems to live well. I know, when we lived in that huge condo building in Florida on the beach I found half dead house plants almost on a daily basis , a little watering and some "Miracle grow " and the plant would come back to life, stick it in a corner, water/Feed on a regular basis and lots of ignoring and it survives well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Fish depend on the following and usually in this order:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    TLC
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ignoring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Disclaimer>>don't try this "Leave and forget" method unless you are comfortable with letting nature dictate the course of action.<<
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 8:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] my hatchet fish jsut jumped out of the tank

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Im so mad at myself i have been haivng the lid half up letting in more air from my fan and air for the frogs right well i was woke up from a deep sleep to this loud crash and i knew right away cauxe i forgot to put the lid down that there was a fish somewehre so i ffound it after like ripping apart my bookshelf... so it was out maybe 15 seconds.. it is like trippin out right now.. i put lots of stress coat in the water do you think i will wake up and hell be dead... has anyone had a jumper be ok... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6218 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, have faith in your knowledge, we are all vastly smarter than we give ourselves credit for.. After all, we made it this far....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    PS :Comfortably considering what type of new tank to buy, Plastic or glass (paper or plastic Maam)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 4:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] as of thursday night answering questio...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    im so worried that the ich will still be there.. i bet i have a very special resistant brand of ich lol knowing me and my luck.... well ill jsut keep you posted.. thanks so mcuh shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, the addition of the new fish, most probably the Zebras is what seems to have caused the Ich outbreak. It seems that Zebras are not especially tolerant to stresses such as slight chilling, etc. Before you start lowering the temperature Sunday evening, first make sure all the fish are completely free of any Ich spots. Then, lower the temperature g r a d u a l l y by just notching the heater down bit by bit. Keeping 1 tsp. of salt per 5 gallons is fine. Ray


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6219 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I would like to thank you for the kind words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much water as possible into the rescue vessel and then the fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts and bio-wheels,  we than ran the vessel out to the patio so it would be out of danger, I cautiously attached the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how I didn't freak-out and start screaming which I must admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 4:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    omg what a nightmare... im so sorry for you... how were you collecting the water or was it jsut giong all over the floor.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well after a disastrous night I wake to find the fish survived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My 50 gl main tank (glass) sits nicely in a spot away from all moving objects so who would think disaster could happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A glass paperweight that sits some distance from the tank fell off a shelf dropped about 8 ft, hit the edge of the couch, the energy in the fall trajectory shot it sideways and into the aquarium, the noise was slight, the results, disastrous. The whole front glass plate cracked, it went from a slight spray to losing gallons buy the minute in short time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We were able to transfer the fish , plants and filter before the tank had drained out (about 15 minutes) and thanks to the Pond were able to find 50 gallons of fresh , safe water. Of course I'm happy that we are not on a second floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well , it looks like it's time to find a new tank and this one, my paladium in the future.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope all is better for you all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6220 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    oh man.. not what i wanted to hear cuase i am so tired of doing water changes.. but if it needs to be done then it does... how much then each day still 25 percent...but what i dont get is that my water was perfect for 2 weeks before i added the fish so the tetras getting it didnt come from teh water must have been stress from the onew arrivals and something else or jsu the stress... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is where my treatment method differs.  To me, water changes are the key to the treatment.  Head is second important, and salt is third most important.  But without water changes, the problem isn't solved.  True treatment of ich requires near-perfect water conditions.   That means water changes every day.  Turning up heat to over 80° is important, too, but if water changes aren't done it won't make as much difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6221 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i think in a lot of pressure situations we do act better than we think... i was only freaking when i heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt see it as i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be it and i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but the hard part was pcking him up i waited for him to jump then i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I would like to thank you for the kind words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much water as possible into the rescue vessel and then the fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts and bio-wheels,  we than ran the vessel out to the patio so it would be out of danger, I cautiously attached the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how I didn't freak-out and start screaming which I must admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6222 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would like to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try and keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand might cause the slime coat to adhere to our hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in the tank first, unless you have piranha, then you could use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i think in a lot of pressure situations we do act better than we think... i was only freaking when i heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt see it as i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be it and i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but the hard part was pcking him up i waited for him to jump then i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I would like to thank you for the kind words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much water as possible into the rescue vessel and then the fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts and bio-wheels,  we than ran the vessel out to the patio so it would be out of danger, I cautiously attached the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how I didn't freak-out and start screaming which I must admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mark


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6223 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Patrick, Somehow I just knew that I would get some controversy in the form of a different opinion, and I half-expected (and respect) that. And, believe it or not, I sort of figured who might have the slightly different ideas, from reading all of these interesting posts from everyone after months and months. Sometimes, after consideration, I might even start changing my original opinion after weighing all facts. While I don't really think either of us are "wrong" about the priorities in Ich treatment, I still stand by my methods here. I certainly agree that top quality water is of utmost importance (and urged Shannon to keep tabs on the parameters), I really doubt that a properly stocked and maintained aquarium can have any noteable change in water quality in just a few days, even if I do believe that you can never overdo water changing. A small natural stream running into one end of your tank and out the other would be the ideal set-up (if it were possible) as long as the temperature and other parameters were alright,and I'm not kidding, but its not really necessary. If the water is left unchanged during the few days of curing the Ich by heat, it will not deteriorate in that short of time even considering that the optimal conditions for the fish at all times is the best water (through water changes) you can give them. In treating Ich, I guess I just can't understand how water changing can be most important, as water changing in itself will never cure Ich, without raising the temperature. However, raising the temperature to 86 degrees, by itself (with or without water changes) will cure Ich and is the most important thing that should be done in trying to cure Ich when treating it in the natural way (heat) without the medications that can sometimes be hazardous. Yes, salt is thirdly important and is best used for Ich in conjunction with heat in this treatment whenever possible, even though cures have  been effected without it. For the few days that the treatment normally takes, I think the water changing can be held off until after the treatment as I don't see any real benefit from it if the water is in near top quality anyway, even though the fish will always enjoy a water change. I fear that a change of water during treatment time can very easily result in a drop in temperature and an interuption of the maintaining of 86 degrees, especially among some of our less experienced hobbyists. As I see it,this interuption of the treatment may possibly result in a secondary infestation of Ich spores released, at the worst possible time. Sorry to get so long winded; sometimes I just get carried away in trying to explain myself, and yes possibly I'm trying to persuade you in coming over to my side. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6225 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, So sorry to read about your fish tank accident. Glad you managed to rescue all the fish, but I can't imagine the mess even half of that 50 gallon tank must have made. Guess its just a good thing that you kept a cool head and went right at it. Who would have ever thought that such a freak accident could happen. I presume that there must have been some kind of vibration (like a heavy truck going by in the street) causing the paperweight to fall? Shows no matter how careful we are, things happen over things we have no control over. Although its over now, hopefully maybe some good will come out of your telling of this experience by making other hobbyists think twice about having heavy objects up high in the proximity of their tanks. Or, cause these other hobbyists to only buy tanks made out of bullet-proof glass. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6226 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What works for you works for you, what works for me works for me, but I am always right... :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6227 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shannon, you have been offered two ways of treat the ich.  In the end, don't go with the one who spoke last.  Do what you feel is best based on what you think.  I would hate for you to think my way is better than the other way.  Both will probably work just as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            After re-reading Ray's comments, I think my opinions of water conditions might have been an over-reaction.  As long as ammonia and nitrite are at 0ppm, and nitrate is under 50ppm, do what he said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6228 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok ill know that next time.. i am alwasy so freaked at tearing or ripping their fins seems like that water might help in that area too right.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would like to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try and keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand might cause the slime coat to adhere to our hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in the tank first, unless you have piranha, then you could use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6229 From: paul helms Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you have time, could you check and see what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        computer says the date is, and if it is off correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it? your e mails are all coming in dated january 03,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and are being dropped in the middle of my mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        folder, making me search for your answers. it may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yahoo, but i would appreciate it if you could check it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out on your end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > might cause the slime coat to adhere to our hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank first, unless you have piranha, then you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i think in a lot of pressure situations we do act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > better than we think... i was only freaking when i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt see it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be it and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but the hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > part was pcking him up i waited for him to jump then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well I would like to thank you for the kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as possible into the rescue vessel and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bio-wheels, we than ran the vessel out to the patio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so it would be out of danger, I cautiously attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > didn't freak-out and start screaming which I must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6230 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for me who looks at most ppl that post and take the tiem to help me out you patrick and nim have overwhelming knowledge and are always extremly helpful and polite... today i didnt do a water change i made the deicsion after the excitement last night with the fish jumping out and diong a water change and all.. i jsut figure the fish need a day off... i havent perfected my water changes as to technique and knwo it is stressful on them... but i must say i was having a prob matching temps if anything the water was warmer than 86 when putting it in there...but not too much... so i wasnt worried about it..i want everyone to know that we love hearing from everyone and do the best or i do that i can when taking advice... I think tom i will do a water change or i am sure of it... i dont want dead ich thingys all in my tank either lol.. but as i look tonight i notice that the ich is still there on all three now and maybe the hatchet fish... not like a lot but present... while they all seem happy... i just hope that in a few days it will start to go away... everyone have a nice weekend.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Patrick, Somehow I just knew that I would get some controversy in the form of a different opinion, and I half-expected (and respect) that. And, believe it or not, I sort of figured who might have the slightly different ideas, from reading all of these interesting posts from everyone after months and months. Sometimes, after consideration, I might even start changing my original opinion after weighing all facts. While I don't really think either of us are "wrong" about the priorities in Ich treatment, I still stand by my methods here. I certainly agree that top quality water is of utmost importance (and urged Shannon to keep tabs on the parameters), I really doubt that a properly stocked and maintained aquarium can have any noteable change in water quality in just a few days, even if I do believe that you can never overdo water changing. A small natural stream running into one end of your tank and out the other would be the ideal set-up (if it were possible) as long as the temperature and other parameters were alright,and I'm not kidding, but its not really necessary. If the water is left unchanged during the few days of curing the Ich by heat, it will not deteriorate in that short of time even considering that the optimal conditions for the fish at all times is the best water (through water changes) you can give them. In treating Ich, I guess I just can't understand how water changing can be most important, as water changing in itself will never cure Ich, without raising the temperature. However, raising the temperature to 86 degrees, by itself (with or without water changes) will cure Ich and is the most important thing that should be done in trying to cure Ich when treating it in the natural way (heat) without the medications that can sometimes be hazardous. Yes, salt is thirdly important and is best used for Ich in conjunction with heat in this treatment whenever possible, even though cures have  been effected without it. For the few days that the treatment normally takes, I think the water changing can be held off until after the treatment as I don't see any real benefit from it if the water is in near top quality anyway, even though the fish will always enjoy a water change. I fear that a change of water during treatment time can very easily result in a drop in temperature and an interuption of the maintaining of 86 degrees, especially among some of our less experienced hobbyists. As I see it,this interuption of the treatment may possibly result in a secondary infestation of Ich spores released, at the worst possible time. Sorry to get so long winded; sometimes I just get carried away in trying to explain myself, and yes possibly I'm trying to persuade you in coming over to my side. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6231 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wow bullet proff tank.. my lordy where are those ppl living... that is scary.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, So sorry to read about your fish tank accident. Glad you managed to rescue all the fish, but I can't imagine the mess even half of that 50 gallon tank must have made. Guess its just a good thing that you kept a cool head and went right at it. Who would have ever thought that such a freak accident could happen. I presume that there must have been some kind of vibration (like a heavy truck going by in the street) causing the paperweight to fall? Shows no matter how careful we are, things happen over things we have no control over. Although its over now, hopefully maybe some good will come out of your telling of this experience by making other hobbyists think twice about having heavy objects up high in the proximity of their tanks. Or, cause these other hobbyists to only buy tanks made out of bullet-proof glass. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6232 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks very respectful of both of you... i figure i didnt do one today ill do one tom.. bu ti have been  monitoring all levels and seem fine however i am having a heck of a time reading those tests.. its like they could be this or that.. and i use the white background and all.. any suggestons... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shannon, you have been offered two ways of treat the ich.  In the end, don't go with the one who spoke last.  Do what you feel is best based on what you think.  I would hate for you to think my way is better than the other way.  Both will probably work just as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            After re-reading Ray's comments, I think my opinions of water conditions might have been an over-reaction.  As long as ammonia and nitrite are at 0ppm, and nitrate is under 50ppm, do what he said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6233 From: dawana325 Date: 10/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Fish & high pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi guys,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm doing research for a new 29 gallon freshwater set-up. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        trying to find fish that will do best in moderately hard water with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a pH of a minimum of 7.4. This is my tap water's normal chemistry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and I don't want to have to muck around with trying to change it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm fairly new to the hobby (less than 3 years) and I'm not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        interested in an RO/DI unit just yet. I know that cichlids prefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this type of water, but I'm not in a situation (live in a 3rd floor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        apartment) yet where I want to invest in a much larger aquarium for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the mbuma (sp?) set-up that I really want for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The question: Are there any fish, other than cichlids, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like/prefer high pH, hard water and can be in a small 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium (preferably planted)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks much!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Dawana

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon freshwater tank (over 2 years old)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 5 black skirt tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 10 adult & juvenile female guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 2 endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 4 cross-bred male guppy/endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 1 neon tetra (all others died)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 3 zebra danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 3 cory cats (2 regular, 1 juli)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        - 1 apple snail

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 betta in a 2 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6234 From: daniel_roachus Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark & Peta"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well after a disastrous night I wake to find the fish survived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My 50 gl main tank (glass) sits nicely in a spot away from all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        moving objects so who would think disaster could happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A glass paperweight that sits some distance from the tank fell off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a shelf dropped about 8 ft, hit the edge of the couch, the energy in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the fall trajectory shot it sideways and into the aquarium, the noise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was slight, the results, disastrous. The whole front glass plate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cracked, it went from a slight spray to losing gallons buy the minute
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in short time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH - oh that sucks big time!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6235 From: hiphopdjdecal Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: eclipse retro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anybody have any experience with retrofitting lighting on an eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 hood? i have a link on how to retrofit an eclipse 1 but i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know what material i need for an eclipse 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.inlandreef.com/eclipse.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ryan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6236 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Fish & high pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Since you are interested in Cichlids, why not try any of the smaller Central American Cichlids which prefer just your type of water. Some of the more common ones are the Firemouth Cichlid, the Convict Cichlid and the Rainbow Cichlid. Additionally, there are a good number of very colorful new introductions from that region; many of them small. Likewise, most livebearers prefer your water conditions, such as Swordtails and Platies. Many Barbs will also do well in your water. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6237 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon, Something you said stuck in my mind and I just had to go over some of your posts, as I'm not sure you completely understood what I said concerning the Ich treatment. For one thing, you described yesterday as "day one". The heat does not just continue for three days after you notice Ich on the fish. As I stated in my earlier post which told how to do the treatment, the heat continues for three days AFTER you see no more signs of Ich on any of the fish. So you can't figure that Sunday will be the last day for the treatment. You have to first wait for all Ich to disappear, and then wait 3 more days. This treatment, sorry to say, may take up to 10 days in all. Let us know when all Ich disappears. You have to be patient. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6238 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok.. yea i did miss that but now remember you saying that.. sorry lot of info coming in over here.. its funny cause i like print out all the emails and underlined and make sure i get everything right and i still manage to screw something up.. well good to know that the ich being gone doesnt happen right away since it int with mine..so then this temp is it strenuous on the fish for long periods... if not why do they not just live in this temp all the time sure would keep the ich at bay all the times.. right.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon, Something you said stuck in my mind and I just had to go over some of your posts, as I'm not sure you completely understood what I said concerning the Ich treatment. For one thing, you described yesterday as "day one". The heat does not just continue for three days after you notice Ich on the fish. As I stated in my earlier post which told how to do the treatment, the heat continues for three days AFTER you see no more signs of Ich on any of the fish. So you can't figure that Sunday will be the last day for the treatment. You have to first wait for all Ich to disappear, and then wait 3 more days. This treatment, sorry to say, may take up to 10 days in all. Let us know when all Ich disappears. You have to be patient. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6239 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you read a few post before I mentioned something about fish metabolism and temperature. They are cold blooded and their metabolism regulates with temperature. Higher temperature means faster rate hence will eventually need more food as an average and will create more waste. Bacteria will also get more waste to consume and at higher temperature the water’s oxygen holding capacity is greatly reduced hence makes a deficient environment for both bacteria and fish. Agreed that Ich has problems at such high temperature but even the fish and other organisms may have problem due to low oxygen. For short periods (few days to few weeks) the fish body can handle high metabolism as they do that in the wild as well but long term will mean that they grow much faster and grow old much sooner and chances of spoiling the water quality also exist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 16 October 2004 13:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] as of thursday night answering questio...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok.. yea i did miss that but now remember you saying that.. sorry lot of info coming in over here.. its funny cause i like print out all the emails and underlined and make sure i get everything right and i still manage to screw something up.. well good to know that the ich being gone doesnt happen right away since it int with mine..so then this temp is it strenuous on the fish for long periods... if not why do they not just live in this temp all the time sure would keep the ich at bay all the times.. right.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon, Something you said stuck in my mind and I just had to go over some of your posts, as I'm not sure you completely understood what I said concerning the Ich treatment. For one thing, you described yesterday as "day one". The heat does not just continue for three days after you notice Ich on the fish. As I stated in my earlier post which told how to do the treatment, the heat continues for three days AFTER you see no more signs of Ich on any of the fish. So you can't figure that Sunday will be the last day for the treatment. You have to first wait for all Ich to disappear, and then wait 3 more days. This treatment, sorry to say, may take up to 10 days in all. Let us know when all Ich disappears. You have to be patient. Ray



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6240 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Got it thank nim.. I do remember you saying that... after I posted I was like.. hum should have thought better im thinking lack of sleep is creating havoc on my brain at the current moment.. you all have an awesome weekend.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you read a few post before I mentioned something about fish metabolism and temperature. They are cold blooded and their metabolism regulates with temperature. Higher temperature means faster rate hence will eventually need more food as an average and will create more waste. Bacteria will also get more waste to consume and at higher temperature the water’s oxygen holding capacity is greatly reduced hence makes a deficient environment for both bacteria and fish. Agreed that Ich has problems at such high temperature but even the fish and other organisms may have problem due to low oxygen. For short periods (few days to few weeks) the fish body can handle high metabolism as they do that in the wild as well but long term will mean that they grow much faster and grow old much sooner and chances of spoiling the water quality also exist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6241 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon, I noticed also in your post last night at 10:00pm, that you said there is Ich on three of the fish and possibly on the Hatchet Fish. You definitely can't lower the heat Sunday. All traces of Ich have to be gone before you lower the heat, and then, you have to wait 3 more days. Why the 3 extra days? -- to make sure there are no more Ich spores in the sand (where they drop off to and divide) that will reinfest the fish; their life cycle at this temperature is about two days (give or take a little), so its always best to give it an extra day beyond that. You want to make sure that any new free-swimming Ich spores are killed off. In another post you mentioned your water was fine two weeks ago. That may have been so, but when you added the new fish, I'll bet you added their water to your tank -- this is a NO - NO. After the new fish are acclimated (temperature, pH), net the fish from the bag and discard their water; you don't know what diseases could be in that water. Getting back to water, as it seems you are not nearly at the end of the treatment, you will have to resume making water changes right now; twice a week on the average is usually more than enough, if that's what you prefer but more frequently won't hurt. Many people just do once a week. Just make sure that the new water for now is as close to 86 as you can get it, and don't forget to replace the lost salt. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6242 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, after a while the high temperature does have a weakening effect on the fish, but they will be alright. During the frist few days the higher temperature actually strengthens the fish (boosts their immune system) as it increases their metabolism. However, after a prolonged period, they due weaken -- this is primarily due to the decrease in oxygen of the water at this temperature. This is one reason why I asked you to let us know when you don't see any more Ich -- I want to explain what to do at that point. I'll tell you now and then I'll remind you. At the end of the treatment, when lowering the temperature, do that gradually and keep it at a minimum of 80 for a couple of days. Do not just drop it to 76 (or whatever temperature you keep them at) even if it was done slowly. This way it gives the fish a better chance to recouperate before going into water that much cooler than 86. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6243 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greetings, Good morning and thank you Ray...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well there will always be something that could cause a disaster even how hard we try to prevent. All we really could try and do is keep the percentage of failure to the minimum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bullet Proof glass "BPG". Yeap, that could work AS LONG AS two objects don't fall in succession.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your right about vibration, they have been busy with the new Savon drug store about 200ft away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BUT we also live in "CA" where the ground moves all the time to the point that unless it's a 5.0 Richter scale quake we never notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The best ideas come from accidents, the pain of being hurt causes one to rethink standards.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Case in point, I have come up with at least 6 new ideas to either prevent or at least slow the action down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here's one and you were not too far off with this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In hurricane prone areas they (some company that likes shooting "2X4's" at windows developed a film for windows that really doesn't prevent the glass from breaking as much as it does keep the glass together. a simple film that is optically near perfect, strong enough to hold back the water pressure and is simple to adhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So, the only true disaster is the one we don't learn from..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 7:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, So sorry to read about your fish tank accident. Glad you managed to rescue all the fish, but I can't imagine the mess even half of that 50 gallon tank must have made. Guess its just a good thing that you kept a cool head and went right at it. Who would have ever thought that such a freak accident could happen. I presume that there must have been some kind of vibration (like a heavy truck going by in the street) causing the paperweight to fall? Shows no matter how careful we are, things happen over things we have no control over. Although its over now, hopefully maybe some good will come out of your telling of this experience by making other hobbyists think twice about having heavy objects up high in the proximity of their tanks. Or, cause these other hobbyists to only buy tanks made out of bullet-proof glass. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6244 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the "Wet Hand" does help to keep fin damage at a minimum. Most of the trauma in "Out Of Tank Experiences" is caused by the struggling fish on a dry area. So anything you could do the lesson the effect would have a higher probability of a positive outcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So how is your fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok ill know that next time.. i am alwasy so freaked at tearing or ripping their fins seems like that water might help in that area too right.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would like to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try and keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand might cause the slime coat to adhere to our hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in the tank first, unless you have piranha, then you could use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6245 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Error corrected, thank you for pointing that out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My system is used for adapting new technologies and sometimes I need to re-load the NTFS which usually causes the reset of the clock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for the time difference I use Greenwich (Zulu) mean time , too many of my contacts are international.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        THanks again for correcting my error.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 2:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you have time, could you check and see what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        computer says the date is, and if it is off correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it?  your e mails are all coming in dated january 03,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and are being dropped in  the middle of my mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        folder, making me search for your answers.  it may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yahoo, but i would appreciate it if you could check it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out on your end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > might cause the slime coat to adhere to our hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank first, unless you have piranha, then you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   i think in a lot of pressure situations we do act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > better than we think... i was only freaking when i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt see it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be it and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but the hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > part was pcking him up i waited for him to jump then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     Well I would like to thank you for the kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as possible into the rescue vessel and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bio-wheels,  we than ran the vessel out to the patio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so it would be out of danger, I cautiously attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > didn't freak-out and start screaming which I must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6246 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yea, you know how it is here in Los Angeles, everyone drive around with guns He He He . Why use turn signals when you could just shoot at everything in the way of your making a turn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ACTUALLY there is not much that is "Bulletproof" , if it can be used to stop a bullet than the bullets get bigger. A more accurate description should be "Bullet Resistant".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank you the levity Shannon, nice to laugh in the morning, good way to start a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 3:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wow bullet proff tank.. my lordy where are those ppl living... that is scary.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, So sorry to read about your fish tank accident. Glad you managed to rescue all the fish, but I can't imagine the mess even half of that 50 gallon tank must have made. Guess its just a good thing that you kept a cool head and went right at it. Who would have ever thought that such a freak accident could happen. I presume that there must have been some kind of vibration (like a heavy truck going by in the street) causing the paperweight to fall? Shows no matter how careful we are, things happen over things we have no control over. Although its over now, hopefully maybe some good will come out of your telling of this experience by making other hobbyists think twice about having heavy objects up high in the proximity of their tanks. Or, cause these other hobbyists to only buy tanks made out of bullet-proof glass. Ray


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6247 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark, In reading about that new film for glass, it reminds me; why couldn't some of the larger tanks on the market be made of car windshield (safety) glass. Same idea -- the glass will break but the plastic film in the center holds everything together. It may sound far fetched, and I originally thought I'd send you this as a chuckle, but unless its too expensive, I bet it could be done. Afterall, the tempered glass bottoms now on larger tanks are somewhat new and nobody expected that way back when. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6248 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ray,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I had given this a thought. There are tanks made from toughened glass but this glass is expensive (probably 4 times the cost in the UK ). So maybe financially not very feasible. Also, the amount of pressure water exerts on the glass will not be able to hold a cracked glass like that of a windshield. The purpose of the 2 is totally different I think. The windshield is done so to prevent shattering of the glass so the driver or passengers are not hit by sharp glass splinters in a crash. A Tank full of water will already serve this purpose partially but there is practically nothing that can hold the water pressure other then a twin wall glass both of equal strength or acrylic of similar strength unless one wants to use bulletproof glass for building tanks J.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 16 October 2004 16:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark, In reading about that new film for glass, it reminds me; why couldn't some of the larger tanks on the market be made of car windshield (safety) glass. Same idea -- the glass will break but the plastic film in the center holds everything together. It may sound far fetched, and I originally thought I'd send you this as a chuckle, but unless its too expensive, I bet it could be done. Afterall, the tempered glass bottoms now on larger tanks are somewhat new and nobody expected that way back when. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6249 From: Ben OLDS Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Lake malawi cichlids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have read that these cichlids require a diet heavy in vegs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that they can get protine bloot from foods high in Protine. As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have a number on the way I would like to know from those of you that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keep them what you are feeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6250 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Lost a platy :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Late last night or early this morning, my last red wag platy died. My husband said that all fish were present and accounted for and doing fine when he left to go to work last night at about 11:30, and when I got home at about 2:30 or so this morning, the red wag was lying dead on the bottom of the tank near the driftwood. :( I had gotten attached to that one, as it was born into the tank. The others died a few weeks ago (spaced apart) but I figured it was old age, as they were pretty large in size by the time they died.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This one I'm figuring is probably due to water conditions. With my new work schedule, hubby and I have gotten behind on water changes. The last water change was three weeks ago. Filter cartridge is fine. I'm all out of water testers, or I'd test the water quality to be sure. I might call my mom and see if I can get her to test a water sample, as she has the liquid testing kit at her house.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Kinda bummed, but it's my fault. :( Now I'm down to two mollies and my two mickey mouse platies. And to top it off, the snails are STILL breeding like mad. I'm crushing them against the side of the glass as I see them with the divider plastic that came with the breeder box. (The breeder box has only ever been used to isolate fry after their birth.) The platies have enjoyed eating them, at least. And I'm getting some algae growth in the back left corner of the tank, as well ... green algae on the glass. I guess it's time to get some oto's after all. And after work tonight, unless hubby gets to it before me, water change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        *sigh*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6251 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim, So I guess in my joking around, I really stumbled on the right solution -- Bullet-Proof Glass (or acryllic which I feel scratches too easily). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6252 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answering questions and one more questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again for your inguiry.... I didn't add the water from the store I have never done that I do scoop them out like you told me.. I did water testing everyother day for 2 weeks to make sure the water was good for adding in new fish.. then continued for 2 weeks after and all was fine.. and still is.. never has been off... and now it is like 5 weeks post new fish and still water is great... so im guessing just stress on them.. if it is on the hatchet fish im thinking it got it after the jump as i just started seeing what i think it is yesterday... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon, I noticed also in your post last night at 10:00pm, that you said there is Ich on three of the fish and possibly on the Hatchet Fish. You definitely can't lower the heat Sunday. All traces of Ich have to be gone before you lower the heat, and then, you have to wait 3 more days. Why the 3 extra days? -- to make sure there are no more Ich spores in the sand (where they drop off to and divide) that will reinfest the fish; their life cycle at this temperature is about two days (give or take a little), so its always best to give it an extra day beyond that. You want to make sure that any new free-swimming Ich spores are killed off. In another post you mentioned your water was fine two weeks ago. That may have been so, but when you added the new fish, I'll bet you added their water to your tank -- this is a NO - NO. After the new fish are acclimated (temperature, pH), net the fish from the bag and discard their water; you don't know what diseases could be in that water. Getting back to water, as it seems you are not nearly at the end of the treatment, you will have to resume making water changes right now; twice a week on the average is usually more than enough, if that's what you prefer but more frequently won't hurt. Many people just do once a week. Just make sure that the new water for now is as close to 86 as you can get it, and don't forget to replace the lost salt. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6253 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Will do ill keep them at 80 or 82 whatever it ends out at.. it always seems to swing back and forth.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, after a while the high temperature does have a weakening effect on the fish, but they will be alright. During the frist few days the higher temperature actually strengthens the fish (boosts their immune system) as it increases their metabolism. However, after a prolonged period, they due weaken -- this is primarily due to the decrease in oxygen of the water at this temperature. This is one reason why I asked you to let us know when you don't see any more Ich -- I want to explain what to do at that point. I'll tell you now and then I'll remind you. At the end of the treatment, when lowering the temperature, do that gradually and keep it at a minimum of 80 for a couple of days. Do not just drop it to 76 (or whatever temperature you keep them at) even if it was done slowly. This way it gives the fish a better chance to recouperate before going into water that much cooler than 86. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6254 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yea that would be an exceptional idea, BUT they would rather we break the tank and buy a new one. The only good thing is that you can upgrade to a larger tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I went from a 50 to a 75 gallon, it sure makes a difference. Same length, almost twice as deep (front to back).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 4:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark, In reading about that new film for glass, it reminds me; why couldn't some of the larger tanks on the market be made of car windshield (safety) glass. Same idea -- the glass will break but the plastic film in the center holds everything together. It may sound far fetched, and I originally thought I'd send you this as a chuckle, but unless its too expensive, I bet it could be done. Afterall, the tempered glass bottoms now on larger tanks are somewhat new and nobody expected that way back when. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6255 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Lake malawi cichlids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cichlid pellets are great (hikari) they are balanced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very well, and you can use frozen foods or live foods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as treats occasionally for more protein. DO NOT FEED
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BEEF HEART. that stuff makes the cichlids grow fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but clogs arteries and diminishes life span greatly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Ben OLDS <bcjolds@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have read that these cichlids require a diet heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in vegs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that they can get protine bloot from foods high in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Protine. As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have a number on the way I would like to know from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those of you that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keep them what you are feeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6256 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        safety glass would not be able to hold up under a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pressure against it. if you have ever seen a car
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        accident in which the safety glass is broken, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        simply rolls down out iof teh way. it is only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "safety" glass because it does not send chards all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        over you, but it still cuts the hell out of you. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hand went "through" the windshield in an accident. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        say "through' because the safety glass held the pieces
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tiogether, but my nuckle did push 100% of the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        through in a few spots. if my hand can break right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        through, it isn';t gonna stop much. a fully tempered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glass tank would be the way to go. generally only the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottoms are tempered, but i am sure you could have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fully Tempered one built.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark, In reading about that new film for glass, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reminds me; why couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some of the larger tanks on the market be made of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > car windshield (safety)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > glass. Same idea -- the glass will break but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plastic film in the center holds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > everything together. It may sound far fetched, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > originally thought I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > send you this as a chuckle, but unless its too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > expensive, I bet it could be done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Afterall, the tempered glass bottoms now on larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tanks are somewhat new and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nobody expected that way back when. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6257 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: my hatchet fish MJB Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seems fine.. i am amazed.. it was a loud thud... but what was weird is i had a towel down in front of the aquarium cause i have been doing so many water changes and that just catches the water but somehow the fish landed under the towel cuaesi heard the fall yet the towel was covering all the floor.. so odd.. what are they odds lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the "Wet Hand" does help to keep fin damage at a minimum. Most of the trauma in "Out Of Tank Experiences" is caused by the struggling fish on a dry area. So anything you could do the lesson the effect would have a higher probability of a positive outcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So how is your fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6258 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Maybe something good,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when we get that "once in a while chance" to add a new tank (like in my situation) we can take what is learned and apply something new..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Get this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When adding new rock to aquariums we sometimes add large heavier rocks that have natural caves or structure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The "FIX" , mouse pads.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        See,,, the larger rocks sometimes only make contact with the aquarium bottom on small points, this could cause cracks or breakage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But using those cheap Mouse Pads that are made of neoprene (actually wetsuit material).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here's what we do, you must start with the aquarium empty of all substrate, then lay the pads where the rocks make contact with the bottom glass. this not only cushions the rock at the contact point but also spreads the weight out over a larger area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This definitely lessens the chance of breaking the bottom plate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All the best,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Northridge, CA 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6259 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: eclipse retro
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the retrofit kit shoudl come with everything you need.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flashing, ballast, connectors, and bulbs, but be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        careful that you retro is not going to through out too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much heat. the eclipse is not designed toi be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up0graded and the bulbs shield have melted on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        occasion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- hiphopdjdecal <rygar126@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anybody have any experience with retrofitting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lighting on an eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 hood? i have a link on how to retrofit an eclipse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 but i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know what material i need for an eclipse 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.inlandreef.com/eclipse.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ryan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6260 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just a quick note......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have been building, upgrading, and repairing systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and networks for about 10 years. if reloading the os
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is causing the clock to be inaccurate, it is time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        change the battery on the motherboard. that battery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is what controls the time settings stored in the cmos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless you are clearing the cmos with jumpers, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        date should stay correct. i realize that you said you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        use a differnet time which you would have to change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (obviously) but the date should not be off by more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Error corrected, thank you for pointing that out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My system is used for adapting new technologies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sometimes I need to re-load the NTFS which usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > causes the reset of the clock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > As for the time difference I use Greenwich (Zulu)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mean time , too many of my contacts are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > international.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > THanks again for correcting my error.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 2:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if you have time, could you check and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > computer says the date is, and if it is off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it? your e mails are all coming in dated january
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 03,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and are being dropped in the middle of my mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > folder, making me search for your answers. it may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > yahoo, but i would appreciate it if you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > check it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out on your end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > might cause the slime coat to adhere to our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tank first, unless you have piranha, then you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i think in a lot of pressure situations we do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > better than we think... i was only freaking when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt see it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > part was pcking him up i waited for him to jump
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well I would like to thank you for the kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as possible into the rescue vessel and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bio-wheels, we than ran the vessel out to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > patio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > so it would be out of danger, I cautiously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > didn't freak-out and start screaming which I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Peace to All.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6261 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well when I reload the OS I usually unplug the sys 1st, then pop the bat to reset bios. Just so I know I'm starting anew. Once again, Sorry for not correcting that earlier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So what MoBo have you found to be the best for your applications?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 8:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just a quick note......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have been building, upgrading, and repairing systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and networks for about 10 years.  if reloading the os
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is causing the clock to be inaccurate, it is time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        change the battery on the motherboard.  that battery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is what controls the time settings stored in the cmos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless you are clearing the cmos with jumpers, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        date should stay correct.  i realize that you said you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        use a differnet time which you would have to change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (obviously) but the date should not be off by more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Error corrected, thank you for pointing that out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My system is used for adapting new technologies and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sometimes I need to re-load the NTFS which usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > causes the reset of the clock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > As for the time difference I use Greenwich (Zulu)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mean time , too many of my contacts are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > international.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > THanks again for correcting my error.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 2:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Mark-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   if you have time, could you check and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   computer says the date is, and if it is off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   it?  your e mails are all coming in dated january
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 03,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   and are being dropped in  the middle of my mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   folder, making me search for your answers.  it may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   yahoo, but i would appreciate it if you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > check it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   out on your end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > might cause the slime coat to adhere to our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > tank first, unless you have piranha, then you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > use bottled water, tap water as a last result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >   From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >   To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >   Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >   i think in a lot of pressure situations we do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > better than we think... i was only freaking when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt see it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > part was pcking him up i waited for him to jump
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     Well I would like to thank you for the kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     To the meat of the sandwich (so to say) .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > as possible into the rescue vessel and then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > fish, then the plants, then the filter inserts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > bio-wheels,  we than ran the vessel out to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > patio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > so it would be out of danger, I cautiously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp proof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     My wife is very upset BUT is also proud how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > didn't freak-out and start screaming which I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >     Mark
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6262 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: my hatchet fish MJB Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1,000,000 to 1 odds?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But if we factor in the "Murphy's Law" effect it becomes to something like "Most Likely".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Something like you don't have two dimes to press together but when you finally get a check it's usually followed by "Funds From  Nowhere" ....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ERRRR!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] my hatchet fish MJB Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seems fine.. i am amazed.. it was a loud thud... but what was weird is i had a towel down in front of the aquarium cause i have been doing so many water changes and that just catches the water but somehow the fish landed under the towel cuaesi heard the fall yet the towel was covering all the floor.. so odd.. what are they odds lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the "Wet Hand" does help to keep fin damage at a minimum. Most of the trauma in "Out Of Tank Experiences" is caused by the struggling fish on a dry area. So anything you could do the lesson the effect would have a higher probability of a positive outcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So how is your fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MJB


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6263 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: as of thursday night answering questio...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Got to try to maintain them at as near to 86 as you can right now, while you still see Ich spots and then for another three days after that.. After the treatment you can drop it down to 80 or so. Then down to your normal temperature. At what temperature do you usually keep them? Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6264 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        75 gal.; Now that's a nice size tank!  I used to think 50's were big (actually, I used to think 15's were big), but after a while somehow they just don't look that big. Maybe its because it won't hold as many fish as we'd like (?). I guess you can use the same filter with what's in it to help cycle the new tank. Any certain plans for it (fish), besides your original fish? Lots of luck with it. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6265 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good point Paul, I am not that familiar with safety glass -- only know its like a sandwich. I was never in an accident where I went partially through a windshield; sorry to here you were. Hope it left no lasting damage. Tempered glass, as you say, might be the best way to go that would be practical, especially in an earthquake zone.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6266 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: saturday ich update ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        76 usually and today everyone seems fine still see spots they seem really active today i gave them more food today sine everyone is saying their metabolism is rising so i thought they needed more.. it was very funny one of my killifish got a shrimp pellet stuck in its mouth.. thought i might have to go in and do the himlick.. lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Got to try to maintain them at as near to 86 as you can right now, while you still see Ich spots and then for another three days after that.. After the treatment you can drop it down to 80 or so. Then down to your normal temperature. At what temperature do you usually keep them? Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6267 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Lost a platy :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A bummer, Erin. I get TOO attached, so can certainly relate. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        platies have been VERY hardy. Didn't have luck w/ Mollies, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was back when I first started up my 12 gallon Eclipse, and I didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have a clue about ammonia-nitrites-nitrates. The platies lived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        through all my learning! I've finally started crushing the teeny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tiny snails, too. My Diamond Tetras LOVE 'em. I don't want a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that's over run w/ snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You'll have to treat yourself to a new platy now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Late last night or early this morning, my last red wag platy died.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > husband said that all fish were present and accounted for and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doing fine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when he left to go to work last night at about 11:30, and when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        got home at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about 2:30 or so this morning, the red wag was lying dead on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottom of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank near the driftwood. :( I had gotten attached to that one,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > born into the tank. The others died a few weeks ago (spaced apart)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figured it was old age, as they were pretty large in size by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > died.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This one I'm figuring is probably due to water conditions. With my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > schedule, hubby and I have gotten behind on water changes. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        last water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change was three weeks ago. Filter cartridge is fine. I'm all out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > testers, or I'd test the water quality to be sure. I might call my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mom and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > see if I can get her to test a water sample, as she has the liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        testing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kit at her house.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Kinda bummed, but it's my fault. :( Now I'm down to two mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and my two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mickey mouse platies. And to top it off, the snails are STILL
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeding like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mad. I'm crushing them against the side of the glass as I see them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > divider plastic that came with the breeder box. (The breeder box
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ever been used to isolate fry after their birth.) The platies have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enjoyed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eating them, at least. And I'm getting some algae growth in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        back left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > corner of the tank, as well ... green algae on the glass. I guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it's time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to get some oto's after all. And after work tonight, unless hubby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gets to it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > before me, water change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > *sigh*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6268 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lately i have been going back to intel boards, prior
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to that i used asus, and prior to that a bit. every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        few years the superior board brand changes. once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        board producer starts to slip in quality control, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generally check out the competition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well when I reload the OS I usually unplug the sys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1st, then pop the bat to reset bios. Just so I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm starting anew. Once again, Sorry for not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > correcting that earlier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So what MoBo have you found to be the best for your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > applications?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 8:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just a quick note......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i have been building, upgrading, and repairing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > systems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and networks for about 10 years. if reloading the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > os
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is causing the clock to be inaccurate, it is time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change the battery on the motherboard. that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > battery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is what controls the time settings stored in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cmos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unless you are clearing the cmos with jumpers, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > date should stay correct. i realize that you said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use a differnet time which you would have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (obviously) but the date should not be off by more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Error corrected, thank you for pointing that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My system is used for adapting new technologies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sometimes I need to re-load the NTFS which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > causes the reset of the clock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > As for the time difference I use Greenwich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Zulu)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > mean time , too many of my contacts are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > international.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > THanks again for correcting my error.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 2:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Mark-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > if you have time, could you check and see what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > computer says the date is, and if it is off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it? your e mails are all coming in dated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > january
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 03,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and are being dropped in the middle of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > folder, making me search for your answers. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > yahoo, but i would appreciate it if you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > check it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out on your end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Mark & Peta <mbethke@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Well I bet he'll (she?) will be fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > to add tiny thing to what was shared. Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > keep a wet hand when picking them up. A dry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > might cause the slime coat to adhere to our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hands..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Wet hand is simply that, just dip the hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tank first, unless you have piranha, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > use bottled water, tap water as a last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > result..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Good luck Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > i think in a lot of pressure situations we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > better than we think... i was only freaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > heard the fish flop or drop cuase i didnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > see it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > i was asleep but i was thinking it had to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > i wasnt finding it.. it went so far... but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > part was pcking him up i waited for him to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > jump
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > i caught him lol shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Well I would like to thank you for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > words,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > To the meat of the sandwich (so to say)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > It was controlled Chaos, I dumped as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > as possible into the rescue vessel and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish, then the plants, then the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inserts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bio-wheels, we than ran the vessel out to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > patio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > so it would be out of danger, I cautiously
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > attached
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the powerhead/airpump/heater to the damp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > proof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > extension cord and started it all up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > My wife is very upset BUT is also proud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > didn't freak-out and start screaming which I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > admit surprised even myself..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks again Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Peace to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        === message truncated ===




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6269 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only 1 scar about teh size of a nickel, but a few knee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problems too. over all not too bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Good point Paul, I am not that familiar with safety
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > glass -- only know its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like a sandwich. I was never in an accident where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > went partially through a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > windshield; sorry to here you were. Hope it left no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lasting damage. Tempered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > glass, as you say, might be the best way to go that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would be practical, especially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in an earthquake zone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6270 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok dokie, I kind of figured you'd have them normally around 76. Sounds like they're doing alright so far. Yes, give them some more food. I guess you got my earlier message to now resume water changing since you're not nearly toward the end of the treatment anyhow. Glad to hear the killie made it through -- shows, though, that they get hungrier than usual, in fact it sounds like they're all doing well. I hope the colorless bleeding heart tetra looks better. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6271 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Glad to hear you came through it pretty good. I've had my share of accidents too, but came through them alright. Some guy rear-ended me once; lots of car damage. And another guy came right through a stop sign, broadsiding me -- totaled my car out. Just lucky it was the right side (and no one sitting there) or I might not be here now. Talk to ya soon. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6272 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks they all seem OK.. And yes def more hungry.. and im thinking they are hanging up at the top of water more but ill will check that out more tom.. If so I just might go and buy a separate air pump and put like a long air stone on the back wall... cause I can always use it in a hospital tank once I get one right... Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok dokie, I kind of figured you'd have them normally around 76. Sounds like they're doing alright so far. Yes, give them some more food. I guess you got my earlier message to now resume water changing since you're not nearly toward the end of the treatment anyhow. Glad to hear the killie made it through -- shows, though, that they get hungrier than usual, in fact it sounds like they're all doing well. I hope the colorless bleeding heart tetra looks better. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6273 From: paul helms Date: 10/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        damn, good thing it was that side then....mine was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        head on and totaled my truck, the day after i put new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tires and $800.00 into it. doesn't it suck how that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        works?lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Glad to hear you came through it pretty good. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had my share of accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > too, but came through them alright. Some guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rear-ended me once; lots of car
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > damage. And another guy came right through a stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sign, broadsiding me --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > totaled my car out. Just lucky it was the right side
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (and no one sitting there) or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I might not be here now. Talk to ya soon. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6274 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, I had a head-on collision with a truck :). I was riding a bike. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bike was half way thru the engine breaking the radiator and lots of engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stuff and I got some rods and plates inserted in my left harm and left leg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and was on crutches for a good 2 years (the best 2 years of my life when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was 20) Luckily I survived that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 17 October 2004 07:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >damn, good thing it was that side then....mine was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >head on and totaled my truck, the day after i put new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >tires and $800.00 into it. doesn't it suck how that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >works?lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >--- sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Glad to hear you came through it pretty good. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> had my share of accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> too, but came through them alright. Some guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> rear-ended me once; lots of car
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> damage. And another guy came right through a stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> sign, broadsiding me --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> totaled my car out. Just lucky it was the right side
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> (and no one sitting there) or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> I might not be here now. Talk to ya soon. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6275 From: Norman. S. Hampson. Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   It wouldn't stand the water pressure, in the windscreen the glass is bonded to it, the glass takes the initial force of the break all the film does is stop the glass going every were.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 unclenorm.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark, In reading about that new film for glass, it reminds me; why couldn't some of the larger tanks on the market be made of car windshield (safety) glass. Same idea -- the glass will break but the plastic film in the center holds everything together. It may sound far fetched, and I originally thought I'd send you this as a chuckle, but unless its too expensive, I bet it could be done. Afterall, the tempered glass bottoms now on larger tanks are somewhat new and nobody expected that way back when. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6276 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK, you win, "I'm not worthy!!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do hope you are doing better now, BA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse? Accidents

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, I had a head-on collision with a truck :). I was riding a bike. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bike was half way thru the engine breaking the radiator and lots of engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stuff and I got some rods and plates inserted in my left harm and left leg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and was on crutches for a good 2 years (the best 2 years of my life when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was 20) Luckily I survived that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 17 October 2004 07:40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >damn, good thing it was that side then....mine was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >head on and totaled my truck, the day after i put new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >tires and $800.00 into it. doesn't it suck how that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >works?lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >--- sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Glad to hear you came through it pretty good. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> had my share of accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> too, but came through them alright. Some guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> rear-ended me once; lots of car
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> damage. And another guy came right through a stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> sign, broadsiding me --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> totaled my car out. Just lucky it was the right side
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> (and no one sitting there) or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> I might not be here now. Talk to ya soon. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6277 From: helen572 Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Help: my cichlids are fighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have four male convicts in a 20-gallon long; they've been in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for about a month. Today the two biggest (both about the same size)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        started fighting -- locking lips and tugging on each other. I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        trying to educate myself about cichlids, but I haven't read anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about them challenging each other by fighting. Is this a fight to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        death? Should I do anything or let nature take it's course?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Although I don't have a way right now to separate them.) Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enlighten me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6278 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh, I don't know if I mentioned, I found some live crawfish at the market, they are a type called Evergladensis, Recognized them from a book on the Everglades. They are usually smaller, plain brown/tan, smaller claws with the top part, the part that moves on the claw, is shorter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I also found some "Bamboo Shrimp" of which I have never seen before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That and a platinum Gourami, a cross between the gold and blue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyways, I'll wait and see what my "Wild Caught" guy comes up with. He never let's me down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My last fish from him is a Trichogastor Leeri (pearl Gourami) which has so much red it comes up the side to almost the lateral line. Very active but still a gentleman as usual..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All the best,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        75 gal.; Now that's a nice size tank!  I used to think 50's were big (actually, I used to think 15's were big), but after a while somehow they just don't look that big. Maybe its because it won't hold as many fish as we'd like (?). I guess you can use the same filter with what's in it to help cycle the new tank. Any certain plans for it (fish), besides your original fish? Lots of luck with it. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6279 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, I'm going to slip out of the shadows and submit a couple of questions.  I'm new to this list, and while not new to aquariums, I've only recently started back after a number of years without one.  I have two communicity tanks, one chiefly populated with zebra danios and leopard danios, though they share the water with lemon tetras and red eye tetras.  My larger tank is more varied and I had two dwarf gouramis and 2 flame gouramis.  Everything was fine until one evening when I discovered one of the dwarf gouramis lying on the bottom and struggling.  Closer examination revealed numerous body wounds.  I netted it and placed it in tank water in a small container, expected it would be dead in a short while.  The next morning found it still alive, though still struggling.  I moved it to a small travel tank and fungus began to grow rapidly on the wounds.  I added a fungus medication, raised the temperature and though it has had a lot of problems with motivating since some of the key fins were wrecked, the fungus has dropped away from the wounds.  I never thought it would live this long with the condition it was in, but today marks the two week point.  My question is this...how long does it take for fins to grow back?  I did a water chage and added Melafix and stress coat, which was recommended by the fish dealer as a good followup treatment to help the healing.  Any words of wisdom?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6280 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Best method to disinfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As a followup to my question on gourami healing, I wonder if anyone has any input into the best method to disinfect tanks and supplies after using them with an ill fish?  The only things I can think of are things like hot water or vinegar (which doesn't seem likely to be good for disinfection).  Any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6281 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Certainly can't hurt to give them more aeration, and its always good to have it on hand. Air pumps, like everything else, last just so long and if your present one goes out at a time you can't replace it you'll be glad you had a back-up one. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6282 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul, I know just what you mean. It never fails to have things go wrong after you've dumped a small fortune in it to get it the way you want it. About two months before the guy totaled me out, I had just had a rebuilt engine and trans installed. His insurance company paid me of course, but only book value; nothing extra for what I put into it. Nevertheless, that head-on sounds a lot worse than what happened to me. Really glad you're OK. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6283 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6284 From: Benedick Mark N. Chan Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello Guys!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am planning to have a 1 gallon fish bowl, and I am planning to put guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am also hoping to put some plants (or plant) in the fish bowl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you guys have any suggestions on what kind of plant suited for fishbowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (without proper lighting and aeration)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6285 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Need help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am having a problem with my two Common goldfish. My goldfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around 6". One of the goldfish is more aggressive then the other. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        noticed today during my weekly tank cleaning that the less aggressive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        goldfish has some scales missing. I can't tell if there is a problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the skin underneth or not. I began today to treat them for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just in case. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6286 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse? Accidents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yikes, I'm so glad you're here to tell about it. Its things like this that unfortunately we hardly know about each other, that should just make us all glad that we have each other to share this hobby and put petty bickering aside. Anything can happen to any one of us tomorrow to the extent we might not be around. In other words, we should just appreciate each other and what each of us has to offer each other. And, while I'm replying here to your post Nim, I mean this for all of us in this Group, some who've experienced tragedy and others we know only too little about. Peace! Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6287 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Norm, I understand what you're saying. As Paul pointed out, the plastic in the safety glass does not have any strength to hold water if the glass itself breaks. Oh well, back to an all tempered-glass tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6288 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best method to disinfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Pure bleach, but you will need to soak the everything in water and dechlorinator for a day or two to get it out.  Hot water would be enough for filters and gravel.  Boil wood and rocks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But I don't see any point in any of that.  I would let the tank run empty if everything died off, turn the heat up to as high as it goes (over 85°) and wait about a week.  Then test the tank with the cheapest fish you plan to keep.  Keep the bacteria fed with fish food.  Then you wouldn't need to re-cycle the tank and most of the bad bacteria that needs a fish to survive would die off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6289 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Help: my cichlids are fighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Are you sure all four Convicts are males? I'm not necessarily saying that they're not. Two males will engage in locking jaws in a territorial fight. Additionally, two males of two different Cichlid species will lock jaws in a territorial fight. More often, however, a male and a female will lock jaws as part of their prenuptual ritual prior to breeding, in an attempt to test each other for strength and fitness for the hardship of fry guarding to come. In the wild, they may have to face and chase off fish many times their size in order to prevent their fry from being eaten by some predator. If they are two males, is there any way you could put some kind of divider in the tank to separate them? Or, do you have any large stones with which you could build some hiding places; even short lengths of 2" PVC piping, or a good clump of plants such as Java Moss? In time, the weaker fish may get his fins torn up and many scales knocked off, sometimes resulting in a fatality. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6290 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your new finds sound neat. And that Pearl Gourami sounds colorful -- not many of them have that much red. I wish all Gouramis were that well mannered. As you might know, both the Blue Gourami and the Gold Gourami (same species) can get a bit nasty depending upon the individual. I wonder how they would do with shrimp. If you're looking for a platinum color Gourami, why not consider the Moonlight Gourami (a different species), which I believe is more peaceful? Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6291 From: wendie Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Best method to disinfect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I was wondering about boiling water, pouring it over the net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and then letting it sit in dechlorinator water for a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 8:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best method to disinfect

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Pure bleach, but you will need to soak the everything in water and dechlorinator for a day or two to get it out.  Hot water would be enough for filters and gravel.  Boil wood and rocks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But I don't see any point in any of that.  I would let the tank run empty if everything died off, turn the heat up to as high as it goes (over 85°) and wait about a week.  Then test the tank with the cheapest fish you plan to keep.  Keep the bacteria fed with fish food.  Then you wouldn't need to re-cycle the tank and most of the bad bacteria that needs a fish to survive would die off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6292 From: Steve Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The fins may never grow back. It depends on the type of damage and how far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it goes to the base of the fin. If the damage does not go to the base, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            should grow back in a fashion, though not as good as if it had never been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            damaged. However, this may take some time, again depending on the amount and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            type of damage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: dragon6435@... [mailto:dragon6435@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wounded Gourami question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I'm going to slip out of the shadows and submit a couple of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm new to this list, and while not new to aquariums, I've only recently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            started back after a number of years without one. I have two communicity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tanks, one chiefly populated with zebra danios and leopard danios, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they share the water with lemon tetras and red eye tetras. My larger tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is more varied and I had two dwarf gouramis and 2 flame gouramis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Everything was fine until one evening when I discovered one of the dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gouramis lying on the bottom and struggling. Closer examination revealed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            numerous body wounds. I netted it and placed it in tank water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            container, expected it would be dead in a short while. The next morning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            found it still alive, though still struggling. I moved it to a small travel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank and fungus began to grow rapidly on the wounds. I added a fungus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            medication, raised the temperature and though it has had a lot of problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with motivating since some of the key fins were wrecked, the fungus has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dropped away from the wounds. I never thought it would live this long with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the condition it was in, but today marks the two week point. My question is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this...how long does it take for fins to grow back? I did a water chage and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            added Melafix and stress coat, which was recommended by the fish dealer as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            good followup treatment to help the healing. Any words of wisdom?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Linda





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6293 From: Michelle Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I was browsing on Ebay the other day and came upon a 4 foot fishtank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for 25.00, never one to pass up on a good deal I bought it :) It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            been thoroughly cleaned, placed in a sturdy stand on some foam, I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            washed the pebbles/gravel, de-chlorinated the water(?) put in some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            oxygen weed (not sure what kind) Put in a filter and heater (set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            25 degrees) and have introduced 6 baby guppies. Everything seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            be fine ...so far.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But I have been researching all things to do with fish on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            internet and am aware now of some common mistakes that newbies like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            me have. So before I jump head first into unknown things, I have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in search of some guidance from you all :) I am hoping to get a nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            aquarium set up...as well as be more educated on the whole 'Keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and maintaining an aquarium' issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have been brought up with fish (not literally!) ...my mum had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            several tanks of tropical fish while I was growing up. I am familiar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with some types of fish (Angelfish, Catfish, Gourami, Guppies Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Neons) but I am just now learning that they do not all like living
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            together...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've learnt off the internet that it takes several weeks to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a tank and not to throw oodles of fish in the tank at once, so for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            now it is just the baby guppies. So I guess I am asking what is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            next step? I have no light yet, that will be when the next few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            weeks...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            PS) I will be wanting to have the same breed fish as my mum did when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i was growing up, so any feedback on that is useful also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks in advance for any help :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            MichelleJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6294 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In addition to Ebay you might want to check out http://www.aquabid.com :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Have fun.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Michelle" <ShelliJ_au@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I was browsing on Ebay the other day and came upon a 4 foot fishtank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for 25.00, never one to pass up on a good deal I bought it :) It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > been thoroughly cleaned, placed in a sturdy stand on some foam, I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > washed the pebbles/gravel, de-chlorinated the water(?) put in some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > oxygen weed (not sure what kind) Put in a filter and heater (set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 25 degrees) and have introduced 6 baby guppies. Everything seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > be fine ...so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > But I have been researching all things to do with fish on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > internet and am aware now of some common mistakes that newbies like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > me have. So before I jump head first into unknown things, I have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in search of some guidance from you all :) I am hoping to get a nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > aquarium set up...as well as be more educated on the whole 'Keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and maintaining an aquarium' issue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have been brought up with fish (not literally!) ...my mum had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > several tanks of tropical fish while I was growing up. I am familiar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with some types of fish (Angelfish, Catfish, Gourami, Guppies Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Neons) but I am just now learning that they do not all like living
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > together...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I've learnt off the internet that it takes several weeks to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a tank and not to throw oodles of fish in the tank at once, so for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > now it is just the baby guppies. So I guess I am asking what is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > next step? I have no light yet, that will be when the next few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > weeks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > PS) I will be wanting to have the same breed fish as my mum did when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > i was growing up, so any feedback on that is useful also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks in advance for any help :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6295 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi, Ben...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm a newbie, so you'll want to wait for some expert advice, I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sure. I just want to encourage you to rethink putting the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in a gallon container w/ no filter, light, or water movement. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have three Eclipse aquariums and I LOVE 'em. My 12 gallon houses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            guppies. The six gallon will be for one of my bettas, once I get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            set up, and I have a gorgeous new 25 Tall that has a dozen Diamond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tetras in it. The Eclipse tanks are so simple, and the hood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            contains the light and the filter. They make a 3 gallon size that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wouldn't take up much space, and you'd have far better luck with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            both the plants AND the guppies. The gups would be much happier and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            healthier, I'm sure, and the tank can be quite beautiful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Benedick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Mark N. Chan" <bmchan@n...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hello Guys!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am planning to have a 1 gallon fish bowl, and I am planning to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            put guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am also hoping to put some plants (or plant) in the fish bowl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Do you guys have any suggestions on what kind of plant suited for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fishbowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (without proper lighting and aeration)?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6296 From: paul helms Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            plastic plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- "Benedick Mark N. Chan" <bmchan@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hello Guys!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am planning to have a 1 gallon fish bowl, and I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > planning to put guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am also hoping to put some plants (or plant) in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the fish bowl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Do you guys have any suggestions on what kind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > plant suited for fishbowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (without proper lighting and aeration)?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6297 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fish bowls were banned in a town in Italy, according to rumors on the "internets".  I like the idea of no more fish bowls, but there are too many slippery slope issues. :)  Fish bowls have good things.  They make good candle holders or candy bowls.  They are useful decorations in a large tank, or a small aquatic plant on your desk. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6298 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Putting fish in fish bowls is a reason to lobby for government intervention. Any other way to get the word around?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plastic plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- "Benedick Mark N. Chan"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Hello Guys!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I am planning to have a 1 gallon fish bowl, and I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > planning to put guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I am also hoping to put some plants (or plant) in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > the fish bowl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Do you guys have any suggestions on what kind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plant suited for fishbowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > (without proper lighting and aeration)?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6299 From: Michelle Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Barb, I am a complete and utter Newbie, but I wanted to just put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              out there why it is that some fish are just more hardy than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              others...is it genetic or what? I have a secondary 5 gallon tank/20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              litres and had 6 guppies in it, no filter, no heater and only a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amount of oxygen weed, when i went into the local aquarium shop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday they said to me that it's virtually impossible for them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              live with no heater, let alone no filter and without lots of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              light...So I am a bit confused, they lived this way for well over 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              months. These fish are now living in their MUCH larger 4 foot tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with 180 litres/47 Gallon of water and are swimming around like happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lil chappies :)...Fish are bizzare lil creatures.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, wanted to ask the experts if in their experience/opinion there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is any truth to the saying that if you buy a whole bunch of baby fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and put them all in the tank together, that since they grow up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              together they don't look at each other as if they were food!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lol...sounds funny, I thought of my Cats and Dogs this way, but never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish! It doesn't sound right to me, I am hearing that would be that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              worst thing to do as far as all the Ammonium/Nitrite/Nitrate stuff is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              concerned when you are setting up a new tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Am getting confused now :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MichelleJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6300 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Help: my cichlids are fighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Helen,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I have a male and female jack dempsey. Every now and then they lock jaws and he beats her up. Then I separate them for awhile until they cool down. My husband made me a plexi glass divider that I stick in the tank to separate them. I also put aquarium salt in the tank after he puts bite marks on her.After a week or two,her bites are healed and I remove the divider. I have had babies three times from them. Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dorothy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              helen572 <shirley345@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have four male convicts in a 20-gallon long; they've been in there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for about a month.  Today the two biggest (both about the same size)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              started fighting -- locking lips and tugging on each other. I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              trying to educate myself about cichlids, but I haven't read anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about them challenging each other by fighting. Is this a fight to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              death?  Should I do anything or let nature take it's course?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (Although I don't have a way right now to separate them.)  Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              enlighten me. 





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6301 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: ich update on sunday night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, my bleeding hearts are free of ich funny enough but the ich is now on the dang zebra danios lol... so I imagine i just keep going with treatment till it is off the daniosnow right... at the least i have 3 days left... ill be so glad when all of this is over.. these water changes are killing me i feel like my hand lives in my tank lol.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6302 From: paul helms Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Fish Bowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it is fine to put fish in fish bowls, but outfit them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              correctly. they do make under gravel filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              especially for fish bowls and they only cost about 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bucks. guppies do not require a heater, and will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              breed less often when kept cooler, but filtration is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the least you can do for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Putting fish in fish bowls is a reason to lobby for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > government intervention. Any other way to get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > word around?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > plastic plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > --- "Benedick Mark N. Chan"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Hello Guys!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I am planning to have a 1 gallon fish bowl, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > planning to put guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I am also hoping to put some plants (or plant)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > the fish bowl.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Do you guys have any suggestions on what kind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > plant suited for fishbowls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > (without proper lighting and aeration)?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Thanks!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6303 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: ICH got my Pictus cat... HELP!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well its my turn to battle the ICH. My brand new Pictus catfish got it over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              night. (I just got him a day ago, he was fine then, but overnight one of his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              `feelers` disapeared. I suspect the gourami was showing him who's in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              charge.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ammonia and NitrIte are 0 - NitrAte was 40, but I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a 25% water change today, and I'm doing another 25% change tommorow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bumped up the temp to 84 degrees F. I added a half tab of Tank Buddies Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Clear today - and I'll add another half after the next water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What else can I do????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              He's still really active, doesn't seem sick at all. Do I stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              feeding him until the ICH is gone?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jay Why

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              20gal - 1 Gold Gourami (Cumea)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Tiger Barbs (Zippy, Nippy, Dot & Lil Dot)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Pictus Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Zebra Danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ? uninvited snails

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6304 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well its my turn to battle the ICH. My brand new Pictus catfish got it over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              night. (I just got him a day ago, he was fine then, but overnight one of his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              `feelers` disapeared. I suspect the gourami was showing him who's in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              charge.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ammonia and NitrIte are 0 - NitrAte was 40, but I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a 25% water change today, and I'm doing another 25% change tommorow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bumped up the temp to 84 degrees F. I added a half tab of Tank Buddies Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Clear today - and I'll add another half after the next water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What else can I do????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              He's still really active, doesn't seem sick at all. Do I stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              feeding him until the ICH is gone?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jay Why

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              20gal - 1 Gold Gourami (Cumea)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Tiger Barbs (Zippy, Nippy, Dot & Lil Dot)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Pictus Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Zebra Danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Ghost Shrimp (maybe...)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ? uninvited snails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              _________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6305 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Digest Number 456
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well its my turn to battle the ICH. My brand new Pictus catfish got it over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              night. (I just got him a day ago, he was fine then, but overnight one of his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              `feelers` disapeared. I suspect the gourami was showing him who's in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              charge.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ammonia and NitrIte are 0 - NitrAte was 40, but I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a 25% water change today, and I'm doing another 25% change tommorow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bumped up the temp to 84 degrees F. I added a half tab of Tank Buddies Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Clear today - and I'll add another half after the next water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What else can I do????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              He's still really active, doesn't seem sick at all. Do I stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              feeding him until the ICH is gone?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jay Why

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              20gal - 1 Gold Gourami (Cumea)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Tiger Barbs (Zippy, Nippy, Dot & Lil Dot)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Pictus Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Zebra Danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4 Ghost Shrimp (maybe...)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ? uninvited snails

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              _________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6306 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Ghost shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi, Barbara!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Live baby ghost shrimp makes great food for fish, especially if you're conditioning them for show or breeding. When I still had them, my apistogrammas grew more colorful with live food on their menu.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Rod

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barbara Linden <linden2710@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for your input, Rod...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have one surviving shrimp in my 12 gallon, but I'll definitely try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              more in the 25 gallon.  I have 5 Ottos in the 25, as well.  I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              see them working their little fins off, cleaning the algae on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plants and they "hang out" on the aquarium walls.  If the shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              reproduce, so be it.  Don't want a tank full of them, so it might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a GOOD thing if there was some "live food" for the Diamonds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              eventually.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6307 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so that gets me thinking i need a stronger one.. i know the one i bought she said would work for like a 50 gallon but it only has one outlet and if i put a splitter on it and put it 2 ways then it would just be sharing the pressure right not giving more air right... so when i buy a new one  i need like super air.. any ideas Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Certainly can't hurt to give them more aeration, and its always good to have it on hand. Air pumps, like everything else, last just so long and if your present one goes out at a time you can't replace it you'll be glad you had a back-up one. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6308 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, The purpose of the airstone is to create surface agitation rather then pump air in the tank so even a small airpump with 2 airstones is better then a powerful airpump with 1 airstone IME. Having an airstone in both corners of the tank and the finest possible ones makes a lot of difference. However, better then an airpump and an airstone are powerheads and spray bars. 3 hrs after switching on my spraybar in a 90 gallon tank none of the fish are even putting en effort to breath (They are not even opening/closing the mouth). So if you can get a spray bar for your filter, that would be the best option and worth spending the money rather then 3 times on an airpump whose major purpose is looks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 08:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so that gets me thinking i need a stronger one.. i know the one i bought she said would work for like a 50 gallon but it only has one outlet and if i put a splitter on it and put it 2 ways then it would just be sharing the pressure right not giving more air right... so when i buy a new one  i need like super air.. any ideas Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Certainly can't hurt to give them more aeration, and its always good to have it on hand. Air pumps, like everything else, last just so long and if your present one goes out at a time you can't replace it you'll be glad you had a back-up one. Ray



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6309 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich update on sunday night

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don’t understand why you are doing so many water changes if water conditions are fine? Let them sit there for a few days as water changes disturbs them and unless the water quality was bad, doing water unnecessary water changes could do more harm then benefit IME. As discusses in a previous thread by Ray and Patrick, if no ammonia exist, no nitrite and Nitrates are well low and nothing wrong with the water, why do changes every day unless you like to strain yourself for no reason. Let them sit and relax and try not to disturb them for the remaining 3 days. Environmental stability is also as important as water changes when treating for a disease.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 06:38
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ich update on sunday night

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, my bleeding hearts are free of ich funny enough but the ich is now on the dang zebra danios lol... so I imagine i just keep going with treatment till it is off the daniosnow right... at the least i have 3 days left... ill be so glad when all of this is over.. these water changes are killing me i feel like my hand lives in my tank lol.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6310 From: Aranel Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: substrate?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As I'm sure you guys remember, I have a twenty-nine gallon community tank with assorted mollies, cory cats, a betta, and one gold gourami. At the moment it has a few fake plants, one airstone, a couple of live plants (some miscellaneous bulbs I bought at Wal-mart and some I ordered online: micro sword and rotala indica), and two caves for the betta and catfish. I used sand when I was setting it up last year, because I read that it was good for the cory cats. As you can expect, the plants aren't doing that great. Surprisingly the rotala indica is growing very well, but the others aren't.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I really love the look of a planted tank, and I'm sick of the fake ones, also I hate the color of the sand!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have one bronze and three albino corydoras and they practically disappear into it. My black sail corys don't as much, but they're pretty shy so we don't see them as often.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So I was wondering what sort of substrate I should buy? I really love the way that moon sand looks, but I'd love to know if any of you have hand any experience with it, and whether it would actually work. Also, would it be alright for the cory cats?  Another one I like is this. Which do you think is better? Also, how much will I need?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6311 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich update on sunday night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good to hear that your Bleeding Hearts are Ich-free. And yes, keep the treatment going as long as the Zebra Danios have it. You have three days left AFTER the Zebra Danios (and any other fish) are Ich-free, and not before. I hope you are not changing water every day; you don't need to change it that often, its just extra work on yourself. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6312 From: Audrey Archer Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: High pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dawana, lots of tropical fish would be happy in your water at pH 7.4 - that isn't really very high at all. Just avoid the ones that "prefer soft acidic water" (5.0 to 7.0 pH) like tetras - anything happy in "neutral" water would probably be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              African cichlids really prefer water with levels more at 8.0 to 9.0 pH. Your water would need quite a bit of adjusting for them to be happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You also said your water is "moderately hard" but didn't give a hardness level in degrees or in ppm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message: 11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:33:31 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: "dawana325" <dawanalea@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Fish & high pH


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi guys,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm doing research for a new 29 gallon freshwater set-up. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              trying to find fish that will do best in moderately hard water with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a pH of a minimum of 7.4. This is my tap water's normal chemistry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and I don't want to have to muck around with trying to change it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm fairly new to the hobby (less than 3 years) and I'm not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              interested in an RO/DI unit just yet. I know that cichlids prefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              this type of water, but I'm not in a situation (live in a 3rd floor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              apartment) yet where I want to invest in a much larger aquarium for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the mbuma (sp?) set-up that I really want for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The question: Are there any fish, other than cichlids, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              like/prefer high pH, hard water and can be in a small 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aquarium (preferably planted)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks much!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6313 From: straubtyler Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat... HELP!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would be very careful useing meds on a pitcus they are scaleless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish so make sure the med. you used sayes its safe for scaleless fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Why?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <justin4fun24@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Well its my turn to battle the ICH. My brand new Pictus catfish got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > night. (I just got him a day ago, he was fine then, but overnight
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              one of his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > `feelers` disapeared. I suspect the gourami was showing him who's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > charge.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia and NitrIte are 0 - NitrAte was 40, but I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a 25% water change today, and I'm doing another 25% change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tommorow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bumped up the temp to 84 degrees F. I added a half tab of Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Buddies Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Clear today - and I'll add another half after the next water change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > What else can I do????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > He's still really active, doesn't seem sick at all. Do I stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > feeding him until the ICH is gone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > __________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Jay Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 20gal - 1 Gold Gourami (Cumea)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 4 Tiger Barbs (Zippy, Nippy, Dot & Lil Dot)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 1 Pictus Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 4 Zebra Danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 4 Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ? uninvited snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              McAfee®
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6314 From: wendie Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Using a dechlorinator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not cycling a small 2 1/2 mini bow tank but have a filter running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I want to clean the tank, plant, and gravel with chlorinated water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Can I then fill the tank and use "stress off" or another chlorinate remover
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              or do I need to do the water separately? Up until now I've used bottled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water but I am moving and want the fish (bettas) to get used to what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              there.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wendie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Be sure to visit -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.dansealsfanpage.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.nashnutphoto.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6315 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi, Michelle...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm a newbie to this fishie world, so you're ahead of me, thanks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              your mom. This is a very helpful forum, and they've been a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tremendous help to me. It's a GOOD feeling to know that I'm not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              alone...I have all these experts available! You might go to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              files here, and check around, too. Congrats on your new 4'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank...wish I had room for one like that! I have all the space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              taken up with three Eclipse tanks now, so I've started trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              convert all my friends and relatives into fish addicts!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <ShelliJ_au@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I was browsing on Ebay the other day and came upon a 4 foot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fishtank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for 25.00, never one to pass up on a good deal I bought it :) It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > been thoroughly cleaned, placed in a sturdy stand on some foam,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > washed the pebbles/gravel, de-chlorinated the water(?) put in some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > oxygen weed (not sure what kind) Put in a filter and heater (set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 25 degrees) and have introduced 6 baby guppies. Everything seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > be fine ...so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > But I have been researching all things to do with fish on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > internet and am aware now of some common mistakes that newbies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > me have. So before I jump head first into unknown things, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in search of some guidance from you all :) I am hoping to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > aquarium set up...as well as be more educated on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              whole 'Keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and maintaining an aquarium' issue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have been brought up with fish (not literally!) ...my mum had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > several tanks of tropical fish while I was growing up. I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              familiar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with some types of fish (Angelfish, Catfish, Gourami, Guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Neons) but I am just now learning that they do not all like living
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > together...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I've learnt off the internet that it takes several weeks to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a tank and not to throw oodles of fish in the tank at once, so for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > now it is just the baby guppies. So I guess I am asking what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > next step? I have no light yet, that will be when the next few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > weeks...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > PS) I will be wanting to have the same breed fish as my mum did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > i was growing up, so any feedback on that is useful also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks in advance for any help :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > MichelleJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6316 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Using a dechlorinator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wendie,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you have a running filter and will be using dechlorinated water to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the gravel then use dechlorinated water to fill the tank up as well as if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you filled the mature gravel and filter with chlorinated water, you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lose all the bacteria and will have to cycle from scratch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              By cleaning the stuff with dechlorinated water there are chances that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              may not even have a mini cycle (usually lasts 4-8 days) but be on the safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              side.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: wendie [mailto:wendieo@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 18 October 2004 15:37
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Using a dechlorinator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I'm not cycling a small 2 1/2 mini bow tank but have a filter running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I want to clean the tank, plant, and gravel with chlorinated water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Can I then fill the tank and use "stress off" or another chlorinate remover
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >or do I need to do the water separately? Up until now I've used bottled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >water but I am moving and want the fish (bettas) to get used to what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Be sure to visit -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >http://www.dansealsfanpage.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >http://www.nashnutphoto.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6317 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Pictus have very long feelers so if something could finish them all off, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will be very worried. Do you have any sharp ornaments of sharp gravel in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank? I doubt a gourami will be able to destroy the feelers of a pictus cat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Does he have any signs of any fungus or fin-rot?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: Jay Why? [mailto:justin4fun24@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 18 October 2004 07:32
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Well its my turn to battle the ICH. My brand new Pictus catfish got it over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >night. (I just got him a day ago, he was fine then, but overnight one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >`feelers` disapeared. I suspect the gourami was showing him who's in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >charge.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Ammonia and NitrIte are 0 - NitrAte was 40, but I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >a 25% water change today, and I'm doing another 25% change tommorow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >bumped up the temp to 84 degrees F. I added a half tab of Tank Buddies Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Clear today - and I'll add another half after the next water change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >What else can I do????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >He's still really active, doesn't seem sick at all. Do I stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >feeding him until the ICH is gone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >__________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Jay Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >20gal - 1 Gold Gourami (Cumea)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >4 Tiger Barbs (Zippy, Nippy, Dot & Lil Dot)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >1 Pictus Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >4 Zebra Danios
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >4 Ghost Shrimp (maybe...)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >? uninvited snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >_________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6318 From: paul helms Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Using a dechlorinator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bad idea to "clean" the tank. by cleaning it you wipe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              out all of your biology. fine to gravel vac, etc....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but save all of the biology when you move. the betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              may be fine either way, but other fish will not be.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the chlorine will kill al of the bacteria thaht is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              washed down the sink, so you will be starting at day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- wendie <wendieo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I'm not cycling a small 2 1/2 mini bow tank but have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a filter running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I want to clean the tank, plant, and gravel with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > chlorinated water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Can I then fill the tank and use "stress off" or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > another chlorinate remover
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or do I need to do the water separately? Up until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > now I've used bottled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water but I am moving and want the fish (bettas) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get used to what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Wendie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Be sure to visit -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > http://www.dansealsfanpage.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > http://www.nashnutphoto.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6319 From: paul helms Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the optima air pump is a single outline with adjustble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              flow and is plenty to run all you want on a 75 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank. i currently use an elite 802 to run 4 uplift
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tubes in my 55 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > so that gets me thinking i need a stronger one.. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > know the one i bought she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > said would work for like a 50 gallon but it only has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > one outlet and if i put a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > splitter on it and put it 2 ways then it would just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > be sharing the pressure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > right not giving more air right... so when i buy a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > new one i need like super
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > air.. any ideas Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Certainly can't hurt to give them more aeration, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > its always good to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it on hand. Air pumps, like everything else, last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > just so long and if your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > present one goes out at a time you can't replace it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you'll be glad you had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > back-up one. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6320 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Could it get any worse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good Morning Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do have four Moonlight/Moonbeam gourami's. They are very passive, as are the pearls and must agree that the blues and gold's are at times bullies. Room and places to hide help to lesson the aggressive nature of these guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That pearly I'm in a rush with, I need his genetics , they sometimes just stop eating and get "Hollow".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have asked everyone from researchers in the field of "Food Fish farming" which uses artificial insemination to fish breeders who just place males/females together and let nature take it's course.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              No one seems to know "how to" on the artificial insemination. I not only want to breed this pearl to a female pearl but would like to try some other trichogastor like pectoris(snakeskin gourami) and maybe a few others like the microlipis (moonlight gourami). ?These would make for some very nice cross breeding that given time would lead to line breeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well back to the " Frankenstein Lab " of genetics,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "IGOR, GRAB THAT FISH CADAVER, NO THE >NORMAL< ONE!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 2:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Could it get any worse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Your new finds sound neat. And that Pearl Gourami sounds colorful -- not many of them have that much red. I wish all Gouramis were that well mannered. As you might know, both the Blue Gourami and the Gold Gourami (same species) can get a bit nasty depending upon the individual. I wonder how they would do with shrimp. If you're looking for a platinum color Gourami, why not consider the Moonlight Gourami (a different species), which I believe is more peaceful? Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6321 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap very easily so just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              because they're gone doesn't mean it was a gruesome attack or illness,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it could have just taken place toward the base.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Oct 18, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Pictus have very long feelers so if something could finish them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > off, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > will be very worried. Do you have any sharp ornaments of sharp gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank? I doubt a gourami will be able to destroy the feelers of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > pictus cat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Does he have any signs of any fungus or fin-rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6322 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH got my Pictus cat.... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the corrections Amalthae :). I have never kept Pictus so it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sounded very gruesome to me that they lost all their feelers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 18 October 2004 17:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ICH got my Pictus cat....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap very easily so just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >because they're gone doesn't mean it was a gruesome attack or illness,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >it could have just taken place toward the base.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >On Oct 18, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Nimish Mathur wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Pictus have very long feelers so if something could finish them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> off, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> will be very worried. Do you have any sharp ornaments of sharp gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> tank? I doubt a gourami will be able to destroy the feelers of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> pictus cat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Does he have any signs of any fungus or fin-rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6323 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Greetings and welcome to the group Michelle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In what I know , I wouldn't count on tanks bought online or even mail order as the odds of it being damaged somewhere down the line are so much greater than if you just drive to the store and buy one or look in a newspaper classifieds fro a used one. But you still need to wonder why they are selling. I personally don't know anyone who sells a good tank, you might need it later like when your main tank breaks ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As for fish, we all love them here and can'tquit yakking about them but please dive in whenever.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All the best, and once again, Welcome to the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (AKA Black Adder)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Michelle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 4:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wow! I've found a whole new world...



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I was browsing on Ebay the other day and came upon a 4 foot fishtank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for 25.00, never one to pass up on a good deal I bought it :) It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              been thoroughly cleaned, placed in a sturdy stand on some foam, I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              washed the pebbles/gravel, de-chlorinated the water(?) put in some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              oxygen weed (not sure what kind) Put in a filter and heater (set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              25 degrees) and have introduced 6 baby guppies. Everything seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              be fine ...so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But I have been researching all things to do with fish on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              internet and am aware now of some common mistakes that newbies like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              me have. So before I jump head first into unknown things, I have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in search of some guidance from you all :) I am hoping to get a nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aquarium set up...as well as be more educated on the whole 'Keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and maintaining an aquarium' issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been brought up with fish (not literally!) ...my mum had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              several tanks of tropical fish while I was growing up. I am familiar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with some types of fish (Angelfish, Catfish, Gourami, Guppies Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Neons) but I am just now learning that they do not all like living
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              together...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've learnt off the internet that it takes several weeks to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a tank and not to throw oodles of fish in the tank at once, so for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              now it is just the baby guppies. So I guess I am asking what is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              next step? I have no light yet, that will be when the next few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              weeks...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              PS) I will be wanting to have the same breed fish as my mum did when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i was growing up, so any feedback on that is useful also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks in advance for any help :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MichelleJ








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6324 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What exactly is a spray bar, and how much should one cost for a 20 gallon... is it something that hooks to the filter.. Shannon:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, The purpose of the airstone is to create surface agitation rather then pump air in the tank so even a small airpump with 2 airstones is better then a powerful airpump with 1 airstone IME. Having an airstone in both corners of the tank and the finest possible ones makes a lot of difference. However, better then an airpump and an airstone are powerheads and spray bars. 3 hrs after switching on my spraybar in a 90 gallon tank none of the fish are even putting en effort to breath (They are not even opening/closing the mouth). So if you can get a spray bar for your filter, that would be the best option and worth spending the money rather then 3 times on an airpump whose major purpose is looks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6325 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ive been looking up spray bars cant find one to even see what they look like.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, The purpose of the airstone is to create surface agitation rather then pump air in the tank so even a small airpump with 2 airstones is better then a powerful airpump with 1 airstone IME. Having an airstone in both corners of the tank and the finest possible ones makes a lot of difference. However, better then an airpump and an airstone are powerheads and spray bars. 3 hrs after switching on my spraybar in a 90 gallon tank none of the fish are even putting en effort to breath (They are not even opening/closing the mouth). So if you can get a spray bar for your filter, that would be the best option and worth spending the money rather then 3 times on an airpump whose major purpose is looks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6326 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Below are some examples of a spray bar and how it works. It is essentially a plastic tube with 1 end closed and other end connected to a hose pipe that fits on the outlet of any power filter/pump. Canisters already have these hoses so they can just fit a spray bar on the outlet. Adjusting the spray bar in a way that it creates maximum surface circulation (water flow positioned horizontally to the water surface and just a few millimeters below). This will oxygenate the entire tank water far more then any other available method second only to a powerful waterfall which is not possible in an aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.hylid.clara.co.uk/xen/spray.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.warrencountydpw.com/Parks-Rec/images/12%20Spray%20Bar.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/a235.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They are very easily available in all aquarium shops and almost all filter vendors make them too and are cheap (1/4th the price of an airpump)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 20:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What exactly is a spray bar, and how much should one cost for a 20 gallon... is it something that hooks to the filter.. Shannon :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, The purpose of the airstone is to create surface agitation rather then pump air in the tank so even a small airpump with 2 airstones is better then a powerful airpump with 1 airstone IME. Having an airstone in both corners of the tank and the finest possible ones makes a lot of difference. However, better then an airpump and an airstone are powerheads and spray bars. 3 hrs after switching on my spraybar in a 90 gallon tank none of the fish are even putting en effort to breath (They are not even opening/closing the mouth). So if you can get a spray bar for your filter, that would be the best option and worth spending the money rather then 3 times on an airpump whose major purpose is looks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6327 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://store.yahoo.com/wetpetsusa/hagfilparspr3.html here ya go

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 20:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ive been looking up spray bars cant find one to even see what they look like.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, The purpose of the airstone is to create surface agitation rather then pump air in the tank so even a small airpump with 2 airstones is better then a powerful airpump with 1 airstone IME. Having an airstone in both corners of the tank and the finest possible ones makes a lot of difference. However, better then an airpump and an airstone are powerheads and spray bars. 3 hrs after switching on my spraybar in a 90 gallon tank none of the fish are even putting en effort to breath (They are not even opening/closing the mouth). So if you can get a spray bar for your filter, that would be the best option and worth spending the money rather then 3 times on an airpump whose major purpose is looks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6328 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OK i see what it does now.. I would like to order online is there a place you know that has them... i looked on fosters and smith they had one only for a canaster filter.. I have a top fin 20 filter..  Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Below are some examples of a spray bar and how it works. It is essentially a plastic tube with 1 end closed and other end connected to a hose pipe that fits on the outlet of any power filter/pump. Canisters already have these hoses so they can just fit a spray bar on the outlet. Adjusting the spray bar in a way that it creates maximum surface circulation (water flow positioned horizontally to the water surface and just a few millimeters below). This will oxygenate the entire tank water far more then any other available method second only to a powerful waterfall which is not possible in an aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.hylid.clara.co.uk/xen/spray.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.warrencountydpw.com/Parks-Rec/images/12%20Spray%20Bar.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/a235.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They are very easily available in all aquarium shops and almost all filter vendors make them too and are cheap (1/4th the price of an airpump)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6329 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So I looked on my filter and have no idea where ei would hook that up at... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://store.yahoo.com/wetpetsusa/hagfilparspr3.html here ya go

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 20:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ive been looking up spray bars cant find one to even see what they look like.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6330 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not aware of any major stores in the US , so if you search for - “spray bar” aquarium – in google, you may be able to get some links. I already posted one in a previous post but it may be an expensive one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not aware what a top fin 20 filter is either. So make sure you can connect a hose to the filter before purchasing a spray bar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 21:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OK i see what it does now.. I would like to order online is there a place you know that has them... i looked on fosters and smith they had one only for a canaster filter.. I have a top fin 20 filter..  Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Below are some examples of a spray bar and how it works. It is essentially a plastic tube with 1 end closed and other end connected to a hose pipe that fits on the outlet of any power filter/pump. Canisters already have these hoses so they can just fit a spray bar on the outlet. Adjusting the spray bar in a way that it creates maximum surface circulation (water flow positioned horizontally to the water surface and just a few millimeters below). This will oxygenate the entire tank water far more then any other available method second only to a powerful waterfall which is not possible in an aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.hylid.clara.co.uk/xen/spray.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.warrencountydpw.com/Parks-Rec/images/12%20Spray%20Bar.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/a235.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They are very easily available in all aquarium shops and almost all filter vendors make them too and are cheap (1/4th the price of an airpump)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6331 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks a bunch.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not aware of any major stores in the US , so if you search for - “spray bar” aquarium – in google, you may be able to get some links. I already posted one in a previous post but it may be an expensive one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not aware what a top fin 20 filter is either. So make sure you can connect a hose to the filter before purchasing a spray bar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6332 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What type of a filter is it? If it is a hang on tank/back type or a Air driven UGF then putting a spray bar on these probably would not be possible. It is most suited for canister filters or internal power filters or any filter that has a powerhead with circular ends and can be fitted with a hose.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 21:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So I looked on my filter and have no idea where ei would hook that up at... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://store.yahoo.com/wetpetsusa/hagfilparspr3.html here ya go

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 18 October 2004 20:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] air pumps saturday ich update shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ive been looking up spray bars cant find one to even see what they look like.. Shannon



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6333 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ich update on sunday night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim sorry im confused I thought the consensus was to do the water changes.... The water is fine always has been... so hum ill wait to hear from others I guess to see if I was doing the opposite of what I thought they were telling me to do... thanks  a bunch.. Shannon:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don’t understand why you are doing so many water changes if water conditions are fine? Let them sit there for a few days as water changes disturbs them and unless the water quality was bad, doing water unnecessary water changes could do more harm then benefit IME. As discusses in a previous thread by Ray and Patrick, if no ammonia exist, no nitrite and Nitrates are well low and nothing wrong with the water, why do changes every day unless you like to strain yourself for no reason. Let them sit and relax and try not to disturb them for the remaining 3 days. Environmental stability is also as important as water changes when treating for a disease.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6334 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: NO more water changes for me ich update on sunday night
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OK looser me I did the wrong thing... So im giogn to stop with the water changes happily.... Thanks Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good to hear that your Bleeding Hearts are Ich-free. And yes, keep the treatment going as long as the Zebra Danios have it. You have three days left AFTER the Zebra Danios (and any other fish) are Ich-free, and not before. I hope you are not changing water every day; you don't need to change it that often, its just extra work on yourself. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6335 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yea it is the hang on the back kinda filter... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What type of a filter is it? If it is a hang on tank/back type or a Air driven UGF then putting a spray bar on these probably would not be possible. It is most suited for canister filters or internal power filters or any filter that has a powerhead with circular ends and can be fitted with a hose.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6336 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: FREE FISH IN DE - EASTERN SHORE OF MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From the local Giveaway column:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              7"  Bala Shark - outgrown its' tank - 302-422-6151

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Goldfish - this years hatch - have too many - 302-398-3369
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6337 From: Jay Why? Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap very easily so just ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When I first put him in the tank I noticed one of the feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              was `bent` and he kept it close to his body. So its possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              he broke it off all by himself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              He seems completely OK - except for the white ICH spots on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              him. He constantly swims figure eights on one side of the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              taking occasional gulps of air from the surface. Is this normal?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've bumped the temp back down to 82, did a 25% water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              change today and added a full tab of Ich Clear. What else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              can I do?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for the input everyone!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Justin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              _________________________________________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6338 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: NO more water changes for me ich update ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Okay, but don't stop the water changes altogether. Just do normal maintenance weekly water changes (or twice a week water changes at most, but shouldn't really be needed if all parameters are OK). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6339 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, If you decide on getting an air pump rather than a spray-bar, I could suggest TETRA brand air pumps which are well made and produce a good amount of air. Here are two lines - Tetra Whisper (guaranteed 2 yrs.)and the newer Tetra Tec (guaranteed 3 yrs.). Tetra Whisper 40 - double outlet for up to 40 gallons - $13.99, Tetra Whisper 60 - double outlet for up to 60 gallons - $21.99. Tetra Tec 100 - one outlet (adjustable) - for 17 to 33 gallons -$15.99, Tetra Tec 150 - double outlet (adjustable) - for 26 to 50 gallons - $19.99 and Tetra Tec 200 - double outlet (adjustable) - for 33 to 88 gallons - $25.99. I believe Smith & Foster should carry them. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6340 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yup, that'll happen. often when they're caught in the store, they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              damaged. don't forget NEVER use a net with pictus cats!!! they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little poisoned barbs in their pectoral fins that will get caught up in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the net and damage them. always use a big cup to scoop them if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              necessary and don't worry about broken feelers too much. they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              slowly grow back. if they don't seem to be healing properly, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              always dose with melafix for 3 days and they'll be just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Oct 18, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Jay Why? wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap very easily so just ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > When I first put him in the tank I noticed one of the feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > was `bent` and he kept it close to his body. So its possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > he broke it off all by himself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > He seems completely OK - except for the white ICH spots on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > him. He constantly swims figure eights on one side of the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > taking occasional gulps of air from the surface. Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I've bumped the temp back down to 82, did a 25% water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > change today and added a full tab of Ich Clear. What else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > can I do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks for the input everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6341 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: question which way to go Ray air pumps saturday ich update shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Much thanks.. Yea I think nim and i figured out that since I have a hang on the back filter that I cant have the spray hose thingy..  so I am going ot have to go the air pump route.. or wondering if I can just splice my one line make two and have it near the surface.. would have be an inprovement.. or not.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, If you decide on getting an air pump rather than a spray-bar, I could suggest TETRA brand air pumps which are well made and produce a good amount of air. Here are two lines - Tetra Whisper (guaranteed 2 yrs.)and the newer Tetra Tec (guaranteed 3 yrs.). Tetra Whisper 40 - double outlet for up to 40 gallons - $13.99, Tetra Whisper 60 - double outlet for up to 60 gallons - $21.99. Tetra Tec 100 - one outlet (adjustable) - for 17 to 33 gallons -$15.99, Tetra Tec 150 - double outlet (adjustable) - for 26 to 50 gallons - $19.99 and Tetra Tec 200 - double outlet (adjustable) - for 33 to 88 gallons - $25.99. I believe Smith & Foster should carry them. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6342 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: NO more water changes for me ich update ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              got it i will get back to my weekly water changes next weekend and i think i am giogn to keep some salt in the tank for good.. how m uch is needed for fish like mollys and swordtails.. cause those are the kind i want next and wonthurt me to get used to doing that now in this tank shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Okay, but don't stop the water changes altogether. Just do normal maintenance weekly water changes (or twice a week water changes at most, but shouldn't really be needed if all parameters are OK). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6343 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well if all is about tried you have one more option, I had a clown loach that was picked on by a crawfish (chopped and feed to the rest of the tank for his attack upon tankmates, capital offense)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              OK, I had a clown loach, it had this huge hole in the side and into the muscle, I knew it wouldn't survive so I went to the books and it was of no use so I asked my wife Since she has been an RN for some 35 yrs (but she's only 39, for the last ten yrs [saves on candles]).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I used neosporium a triple antibiotic ointment made with Vaseline. Now this does create a boundary to keep fungus out and stops bacteria from finding the way in. You will want to follow this method as I will lay out:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              First, make sure your hand is wet with bottled water this way the slime won't stick to your skin and will stay on the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Second, Prep the area, use a "Q-TIP" to dry the hole only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Third, Use a fresh "Q-TIP" and dap a tiny bit of the triple antibiotic in the hole, make sure you cover all exposed flesh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Lastly , move to a bowl or other smooth walled vessel so the fish can't wipe the ointment off, they don;t like it but it does work and doesn't hurt them, just uncomfortable. and don't forget a nice air pump/fine air disk, the more O-2 in the water the faster it heals .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Lastly #2, Make sure you use fresh bottled water in the bowl and place a towel over the top so they don't jump out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The loach healed up in less then a week and was fully healed in about a month with no ill side effects and even the skin grew back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just don't cover the whole fish in ointment or they won't be able to pass urine. This is stupid I know we are all smarter than that but had to add this for clarity's sake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All the best on Halloween,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wounded Gourami question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, I'm going to slip out of the shadows and submit a couple of questions.  I'm new to this list, and while not new to aquariums, I've only recently started back after a number of years without one.  I have two communicity tanks, one chiefly populated with zebra danios and leopard danios, though they share the water with lemon tetras and red eye tetras.  My larger tank is more varied and I had two dwarf gouramis and 2 flame gouramis.  Everything was fine until one evening when I discovered one of the dwarf gouramis lying on the bottom and struggling.  Closer examination revealed numerous body wounds.  I netted it and placed it in tank water in a small container, expected it would be dead in a short while.  The next morning found it still alive, though still struggling.  I moved it to a small travel tank and fungus began to grow ra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Linda


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6344 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am having a problem with my two Common goldfish. My goldfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              around 6". One of the goldfish is more aggressive then the other. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              noticed yesturday during my weekly tank cleaning that the less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              aggressive goldfish has some scales missing. I can't tell if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a problem with the skin underneth or not. I noticed today that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other fish is also losing scales. I began today to treat them with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MedlaFix. I was told it might be dropsy. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6345 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wasn't that the movie medicine man with Sean Connery, the assistant, "Lorain boraco" was warned about tiny baby pictus cats that can get lodged in the urethra if swimming nude???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sounds like the same thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Black Adder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yup, that'll happen. often when they're caught in the store, they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              damaged. don't forget NEVER use a net with pictus cats!!! they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              little poisoned barbs in their pectoral fins that will get caught up in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the net and damage them. always use a big cup to scoop them if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              necessary and don't worry about broken feelers too much. they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              slowly grow back. if they don't seem to be healing properly, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              always dose with melafix for 3 days and they'll be just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Oct 18, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Jay Why? wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  >while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap very easily so just ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  When I first put him in the tank I noticed one of the feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  was `bent` and he kept it close to his body. So its possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  he broke it off all by himself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  He seems completely OK - except for the white ICH spots on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  him. He constantly swims figure eights on one side of the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  taking occasional gulps of air from the surface. Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  I've bumped the temp back down to 82, did a 25% water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  change today and added a full tab of Ich Clear. What else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  can I do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  Thanks for the input everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >  Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6346 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If it is dropsy the scales will be raised making the fish look fat. Thats how to tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fat fish = scales flat but fat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dropsy infected fish = fat with scales raised (sticking out from body)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 10/19/04 05:39:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am having a problem with my two Common goldfish. My goldfish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                around 6". One of the goldfish is more aggressive then the other. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                noticed yesturday during my weekly tank cleaning that the less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                aggressive goldfish has some scales missing. I can't tell if there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a problem with the skin underneth or not. I noticed today that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other fish is also losing scales. I began today to treat them with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                MedlaFix. I was told it might be dropsy. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6347 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i was talking with her earlier tonight and from what she said it doesnt sound like dropsy she didn't see the pine cone affect happening that is character with dropsy.. now i was looking in the books i have and ammonia poisoning was looking kinda suspicious... but she ran out of stuff to test it and doesnt know when she will be able to get any... so who knows.. mabye someone else has a better idea or she can post tom what is happening current with them... Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If it is dropsy the scales will be raised making the fish look fat. Thats how to tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fat fish = scales flat but fat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dropsy infected fish = fat with scales raised (sticking out from body)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6348 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What other symptoms does her fish have then?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 10/19/04 08:34:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i was talking with her earlier tonight and from what she said it doesnt sound like dropsy she didn't see the pine cone affect happening that is character with dropsy.. now i was looking in the books i have and ammonia poisoning was looking kinda suspicious... but she ran out of stuff to test it and doesnt know when she will be able to get any... so who knows.. mabye someone else has a better idea or she can post tom what is happening current with them... Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If it is dropsy the scales will be raised making the fish look fat. Thats how to tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fat fish = scales flat but fat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  dropsy infected fish = fat with scales raised (sticking out from body)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6349 From: paul helms Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  extremely fine nets and nets with large holes work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  just fine with them. i have literally netted 200+ of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  them and there is no problem with the white nets that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  almost seem to have no mesh to them at all, as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fins don't penetrate far enough to get stuck, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nets with large holes slide right off as well. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  best way is to not use one, but never is a strong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  word.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > yup, that'll happen. often when they're caught in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the store, they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > damaged. don't forget NEVER use a net with pictus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cats!!! they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > little poisoned barbs in their pectoral fins that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > will get caught up in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the net and damage them. always use a big cup to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > scoop them if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > necessary and don't worry about broken feelers too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > much. they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > slowly grow back. if they don't seem to be healing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > properly, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > always dose with melafix for 3 days and they'll be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Oct 18, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > very easily so just ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > When I first put him in the tank I noticed one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > was `bent` and he kept it close to his body. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > its possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > he broke it off all by himself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > He seems completely OK - except for the white ICH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > spots on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > him. He constantly swims figure eights on one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > side of the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > taking occasional gulps of air from the surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I've bumped the temp back down to 82, did a 25%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > change today and added a full tab of Ich Clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > What else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > can I do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks for the input everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6350 From: amalthea23 Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fair enough, though most people don't tend to have those nets lying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  around, so in the interest of fish safety, i use never.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Oct 19, 2004, at 4:53 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > extremely fine nets and nets with large holes work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > just fine with them. i have literally netted 200+ of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > them and there is no problem with the white nets that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > almost seem to have no mesh to them at all, as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fins don't penetrate far enough to get stuck, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > nets with large holes slide right off as well. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > best way is to not use one, but never is a strong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > word.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> yup, that'll happen. often when they're caught in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the store, they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> damaged. don't forget NEVER use a net with pictus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> cats!!! they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> little poisoned barbs in their pectoral fins that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> will get caught up in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the net and damage them. always use a big cup to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> scoop them if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> necessary and don't worry about broken feelers too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> much. they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> slowly grow back. if they don't seem to be healing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> properly, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> always dose with melafix for 3 days and they'll be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> On Oct 18, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>> while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> very easily so just ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> When I first put him in the tank I noticed one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> was `bent` and he kept it close to his body. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> its possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> he broke it off all by himself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> He seems completely OK - except for the white ICH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> spots on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> him. He constantly swims figure eights on one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> side of the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> taking occasional gulps of air from the surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I've bumped the temp back down to 82, did a 25%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> change today and added a full tab of Ich Clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> What else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> can I do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Thanks for the input everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6351 From: audralee Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: High pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Even though they are considered soft water fish, my angels, cardinal tetras, cories and plecos thrive in water harder than yours.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: High pH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dawana, lots of tropical fish would be happy in your water at pH 7.4 - that isn't really very high at all. Just avoid the ones that "prefer soft acidic water" (5.0 to 7.0 pH) like tetras - anything happy in "neutral" water would probably be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    African cichlids really prefer water with levels more at 8.0 to 9.0 pH. Your water would need quite a bit of adjusting for them to be happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You also said your water is "moderately hard" but didn't give a hardness level in degrees or in ppm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message: 11       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:33:31 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     From: "dawana325" <dawanalea@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Fish & high pH


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi guys,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm doing research for a new 29 gallon freshwater set-up.  I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  trying to find fish that will do best in moderately hard water with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a pH of a minimum of 7.4.  This is my tap water's normal chemistry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I don't want to have to muck around with trying to change it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm fairly new to the hobby (less than 3 years) and I'm not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  interested in an RO/DI unit just yet.  I know that cichlids prefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  this type of water, but I'm not in a situation (live in a 3rd floor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  apartment) yet where I want to invest in a much larger aquarium for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the mbuma (sp?) set-up that I really want for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The question: Are there any fish, other than cichlids, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  like/prefer high pH, hard water and can be in a small 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  aquarium (preferably planted)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks much!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Dawana



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6352 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the information on wound recovery and the fin regeneration.  Alas, this morning, after more than two weeks in a hospital tank, the gourami is giving it's last gasp.  I suppose it is for the best, the lack of motivating fins were very difficult for the fish.  Still, it is disappointing owing to the fight it put up to recover. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This evening I'll be working with the disinfection process suggested by other posters.  Thanks again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6353 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: question which way to go Ray air pumps ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Splicing your present air line and using two air stones will give you more aeration IF, as you mentioned, you move the air stones higher, more towards the surface where there's less pressure. You will have to get a small gang valve, with one input from the pump and two outlets for the two airlines/airstones to control the airstones. Otherwise, the airstone with the least resistance will release most of the air and the other one will do nothing. This is well worth a try. If, after you see you may not have enough air to suit your needs, you may consider getting a larger pump. But I would try the first route first, unless you feel time is of the essence. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6354 From: shortlid Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Three Rainbows down to two?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well I use to have three Rainbows all about 2 1/2" long now I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  two since one of the Rainbows decided to try to eat a 1" Ghost Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and died. Should the just two Rainbows be OK? I am at tank capacity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and would like the Rainbows place to be taken by a Fresh Water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Flounder.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6355 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: NO more water changes for me ich update ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The amount of salt permanently added to your aquarium for the benefit of Swordtails and Mollies really depends upon if you have live plants, which I presume you do. Swordtails do not like quite as much salt as Mollies, but both prefer at least hard alkaline water. Mollies are often found in brackish water and sometimes in pure sea water along the coast. As such they will tolerate up to 8 tsps. per gallon of salt. HOWEVER, you do not want to use nearly that much! One tbls. per gallon (that's one and two-thirds tsps. per gallon), at the most, should be of some benefit for these species and should not be detrimental to other fish or plants, keeping in mind also that cory cats do not like too much salt. Most plants will tolerate 2 tsps, per gallon; a few very hardy ones up to 3 tsps. per gallon. As a comparison, you are now using about 2/3 tsp. per gallon for the Ich treatment (12 tsps. per 20 gallons). If using salt permanently, you must keep in mind to replace the salt you took out each time you change water. Ray   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6356 From: paul helms Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: ICH & my Pictus cat... HELP!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that's cool, just didn't want peoeple to freak out and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  think they can't try it, because pictus are very fast
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and can't always be caught with a container, and those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  barbs hurt if they smack you when trying to get away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fair enough, though most people don't tend to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > those nets lying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > around, so in the interest of fish safety, i use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > never.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Oct 19, 2004, at 4:53 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > extremely fine nets and nets with large holes work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > just fine with them. i have literally netted 200+
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > them and there is no problem with the white nets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > almost seem to have no mesh to them at all, as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > fins don't penetrate far enough to get stuck, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > nets with large holes slide right off as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > best way is to not use one, but never is a strong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > word.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> yup, that'll happen. often when they're caught in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> the store, they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> damaged. don't forget NEVER use a net with pictus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> cats!!! they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> little poisoned barbs in their pectoral fins that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> will get caught up in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> the net and damage them. always use a big cup to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> scoop them if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> necessary and don't worry about broken feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> much. they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> slowly grow back. if they don't seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > healing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> properly, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> always dose with melafix for 3 days and they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> just fine!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> On Oct 18, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Jay Why? wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>> while pictus' feelers are long, they do snap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> very easily so just ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> When I first put him in the tank I noticed one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> the feelers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> was `bent` and he kept it close to his body. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> its possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> he broke it off all by himself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> He seems completely OK - except for the white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ICH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> spots on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> him. He constantly swims figure eights on one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> side of the tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> taking occasional gulps of air from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> Is this normal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> I've bumped the temp back down to 82, did a 25%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> change today and added a full tab of Ich Clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> What else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> can I do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> Thanks for the input everyone!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>> Justin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6357 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mark, Just read this post of yours. That neosporium treatment for wounds is a great bit of information to keep in mind, even though we (hopefully) may not have too many opportunities to use it. Many thanks for sharing that with us, or should I say, many thanks to your wife. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6358 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Right now I just have falling scales. I am going to have the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tested for ammonia today by local fish store.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Harrison" <sarah@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > What other symptoms does her fish have then?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: 10/19/04 08:34:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > i was talking with her earlier tonight and from what she said it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  doesnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > sound like dropsy she didn't see the pine cone affect happening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > character with dropsy.. now i was looking in the books i have and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > poisoning was looking kinda suspicious... but she ran out of stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it and doesnt know when she will be able to get any... so who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  knows.. mabye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > someone else has a better idea or she can post tom what is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  happening current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > with them... Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > If it is dropsy the scales will be raised making the fish look fat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > how to tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fat fish = scales flat but fat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > dropsy infected fish = fat with scales raised (sticking out from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  body)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6359 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i don't know hopefully she will be able to answer this well if she wants help she will.. lol i just know she said the scales were falling off but that they weren't protruding like the pine cone affect and that they went fat or bloated.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What other symptoms does her fish have then?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6360 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: question which way to go Ray air pumps ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks I think I am going to try and splice to begin with I know when I bought it I picked a better one meaning not a bad one so that it had more pressure if I ever upgraded.. Maybe this is a good thing.. I let you know.. thanks again.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Splicing your present air line and using two air stones will give you more aeration IF, as you mentioned, you move the air stones higher, more towards the surface where there's less pressure. You will have to get a small gang valve, with one input from the pump and two outlets for the two airlines/airstones to control the airstones. Otherwise, the airstone with the least resistance will release most of the air and the other one will do nothing. This is well worth a try. If, after you see you may not have enough air to suit your needs, you may consider getting a larger pump. But I would try the first route first, unless you feel time is of the essence. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6361 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Tap water purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anybody have a problem getting a Ph.of 7.0 after using the Tap water purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6362 From: Robb Rouse Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Tap water purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've used a Breta and mt ph didn't change at all. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I figured why bother I still think a RO or a DI would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be the way to go, but don't really have the money for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it and can't find out what I need to do to make the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water fish ready.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Robb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Salmarcus@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Does anybody have a problem getting a Ph.of 7.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > after using the Tap water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6363 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Tap water purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Scott, What kind of a purifier is it? Why is PH of 7 a problem? I would love to get my water with a PH of 7 though unless keeping rift lake cichlids.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Salmarcus@aol.com [mailto:Salmarcus@aol.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 19 October 2004 21:06
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Tap water purifier?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Does anybody have a problem getting a Ph.of 7.0 after using the Tap water purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Scott


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6364 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No other symptoms. Just the scales coming off. The ammonia was high,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nit lethal but high. Did a partial water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i don't know hopefully she will be able to answer this well if she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wants help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > she will.. lol i just know she said the scales were falling off but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > weren't protruding like the pine cone affect and that they went fat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bloated.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What other symptoms does her fish have then?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6365 From: Salmarcus@aol.com Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Tap water purifier?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have been using this Tap water purifier for quite awhile, but after filtering the water through it I have to add electrolytes and something to adjust the pH. The product that comes with the purifier does not bring the pH up to 7. So I would add a buffer, this put phosphates into the water (that I did not want ). So if I don't use a buffer, and follow the direction to the letter, I get water with a pH of 6.2. I am just wondering if anybody else had this problem with this product? It is The Tap Water Purifier from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6366 From: Steve Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Wow! I've found a whole new world...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Michelle,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You might want to search the archives for the series of messages I have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doing on an irregular basis. The first three are called Starting Right with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Aquariums, and the rest of them some how had the "Right" dropped from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        subject (probably too late one Sunday night). I am just getting into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish part of it, but have already covered some of the other topics that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of interest to you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Michelle [mailto:ShelliJ_au@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wow! I've found a whole new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        world...





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was browsing on Ebay the other day and came upon a 4 foot fishtank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for 25.00, never one to pass up on a good deal I bought it :) It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been thoroughly cleaned, placed in a sturdy stand on some foam, I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        washed the pebbles/gravel, de-chlorinated the water(?) put in some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oxygen weed (not sure what kind) Put in a filter and heater (set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        25 degrees) and have introduced 6 baby guppies. Everything seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be fine ...so far.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But I have been researching all things to do with fish on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        internet and am aware now of some common mistakes that newbies like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        me have. So before I jump head first into unknown things, I have come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in search of some guidance from you all :) I am hoping to get a nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium set up...as well as be more educated on the whole 'Keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and maintaining an aquarium' issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have been brought up with fish (not literally!) ...my mum had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        several tanks of tropical fish while I was growing up. I am familiar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with some types of fish (Angelfish, Catfish, Gourami, Guppies Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Neons) but I am just now learning that they do not all like living
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        together...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've learnt off the internet that it takes several weeks to establish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a tank and not to throw oodles of fish in the tank at once, so for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now it is just the baby guppies. So I guess I am asking what is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        next step? I have no light yet, that will be when the next few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weeks...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PS) I will be wanting to have the same breed fish as my mum did when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i was growing up, so any feedback on that is useful also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks in advance for any help :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MichelleJ











                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6367 From: Steve Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Scissor Tails geting there tails SNIPED!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for the snipper, I'd look at the blue gourami first, possibly followed by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the black tetras assuming we are talking about _Gymnocorymbus ternetzi_, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not something else. The blue gourami is noted for its aggression toward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other fish, and the black tetras are also noted for aggression, except when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kept in larger groups--larger than you have, or your tank will allow with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the present census.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd probably trade out the gourami, but not replace it with anything. I'd be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tempted to remove the black tetras also, along with the mollie. The mollie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would prefer harder water of a higher pH along with higher temperatures that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you are probably not supplying, based on your fish selection. Then, I'd let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my other fish grow out to fill the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Keep an eye on the size of the pl*co, however. There are many of them that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grow to large sizes and they are hard to identify from the start.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Scissor Tails geting there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tails SNIPED!!




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well my 30-gal community tank has calmed down a bit now and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seems dead on pretty much all the time. I have the one 2 ½" Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Gourmi, one Black Molly, three Black Tetras, three 2" Rainbows, three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Danios, two Cherry Barbs, one 2" Pleco, one 2" Cory, and three 1"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Scissors Tails. Well something in my tank put a SNIP in one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Scissors Tails tails! Now he only has the upper part of his tail?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Seems to be fine other wise. Is three a big enough group or should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        add a few more Scissors Tails? The only thing is I have heard that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the Svissor Tails will get bigger and my 30 gal. is about a max.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        capacity now?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6368 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/ flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6369 From: renee31477 Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a betta in a 5 gallon tank with 2 apple snails that I got from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        THey get along great!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Renee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6370 From: julie_hash Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: High pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What about those with a really high ph. Mine is steady at 7.9! I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really like some tetras, but don't want to make life miserable for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the little guys... any suggestions? Either on fish or acclimation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        techniques?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks much, Julie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ****snip****
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Even though they are considered soft water fish, my angels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cardinal tetras, cories and plecos thrive in water harder than yours.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ****snip****
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6371 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have just setup a 10 gallon tank for my Betta and the companions are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple of corydoras, a group of 6 pencil fish and some snails. You can have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        many peaceful fish as companions eg. Lampeye killi fish, many pencil fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have alsonot had problems in keeping neon tetras and glowlights with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Betta but investigate this first.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 20 October 2004 05:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/ flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6372 From: Travis Walker Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In my 72 Gallon I have 1 Male Betta, 4 Female Bettas, 2 Juvi unsexed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bettas, 6 Danios, 6 Khuli Loaches, 7 Sparkling Gouramies and 2 CAE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When I had the 10 gallon I had 1 male betta, 2 Female Bettas and 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Danios. I have not had any problems in either setup.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6373 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, if the bettas are young, not full grown, they should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        able to coexist with just about anything. We have a male and female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        betta in a tank together with a whole bunch of guppies, an angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, tetras...etc... and they all get along just fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6374 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, they are full grown, and have always been by themselves. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was under the impression that if you put a female in w/ the male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that he'll be aggressive and maybe even kill her! I'd love to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a couple in w/ him, but certainly wouldn't want any harm to come to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ANY of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Actually, if the bettas are young, not full grown, they should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > able to coexist with just about anything. We have a male and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > betta in a tank together with a whole bunch of guppies, an angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, tetras...etc... and they all get along just fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6375 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd just die to have the room for a 72 gallon aquarium...I'm GREEN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with envy! Will check out these fishies, but I realize not every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish is appropriate for such a tiny tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Travis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Walker" <spinalcore@n...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In my 72 Gallon I have 1 Male Betta, 4 Female Bettas, 2 Juvi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unsexed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Bettas, 6 Danios, 6 Khuli Loaches, 7 Sparkling Gouramies and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        CAE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > When I had the 10 gallon I had 1 male betta, 2 Female Bettas and 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Danios. I have not had any problems in either setup.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6376 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I love the little neons! Would they really be okay in such a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        space? If I got some, how many (maximum) would be right for this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have just setup a 10 gallon tank for my Betta and the companions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of corydoras, a group of 6 pencil fish and some snails. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > many peaceful fish as companions eg. Lampeye killi fish, many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pencil fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have alsonot had problems in keeping neon tetras and glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Betta but investigate this first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Sent: 20 October 2004 05:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6377 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ha!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I really was thinking more of fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Matter of fact, I've finally gotten the nerve to make food for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fishies out of the snails that rode in on plants that I ordered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "renee31477"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <renee31477@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a betta in a 5 gallon tank with 2 apple snails that I got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Terri!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > THey get along great!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Renee
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6378 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My vote would be for a pair of cherry barbs and some sort of bottom feeder,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        either a school of small cories or a few kuhlis.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/ flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6379 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I love the cories in my other tanks, so that's probably a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        definite "do". I have a friend w/ a cherry barb, and it is hidden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all the time. They are very pretty little fishies, but I'd probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lean towards some that might be more visible. Has the shyness been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your experience w/ them, or could my friend's little barb just be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weird?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My vote would be for a pair of cherry barbs and some sort of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottom feeder,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > either a school of small cories or a few kuhlis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6380 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As a follow up thought...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How would a dwarf Gourami or two or three do w/ a betta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6381 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow, Mark...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Great information! I'd never think to use neosporin on a fish, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        though it's a "staple" around here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark & Peta"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well if all is about tried you have one more option, I had a clown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        loach that was picked on by a crawfish (chopped and feed to the rest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the tank for his attack upon tankmates, capital offense)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK, I had a clown loach, it had this huge hole in the side and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into the muscle, I knew it wouldn't survive so I went to the books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and it was of no use so I asked my wife Since she has been an RN for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some 35 yrs (but she's only 39, for the last ten yrs [saves on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        candles]).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I used neosporium a triple antibiotic ointment made with Vaseline.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now this does create a boundary to keep fungus out and stops
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria from finding the way in. You will want to follow this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        method as I will lay out:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > First, make sure your hand is wet with bottled water this way the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        slime won't stick to your skin and will stay on the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Second, Prep the area, use a "Q-TIP" to dry the hole only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Third, Use a fresh "Q-TIP" and dap a tiny bit of the triple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        antibiotic in the hole, make sure you cover all exposed flesh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Lastly , move to a bowl or other smooth walled vessel so the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can't wipe the ointment off, they don;t like it but it does work and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doesn't hurt them, just uncomfortable. and don't forget a nice air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pump/fine air disk, the more O-2 in the water the faster it heals .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Lastly #2, Make sure you use fresh bottled water in the bowl and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        place a towel over the top so they don't jump out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The loach healed up in less then a week and was fully healed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about a month with no ill side effects and even the skin grew back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Just don't cover the whole fish in ointment or they won't be able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to pass urine. This is stupid I know we are all smarter than that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but had to add this for clarity's sake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > All the best on Halloween,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: dragon6435@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wounded Gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, I'm going to slip out of the shadows and submit a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of questions. I'm new to this list, and while not new to aquariums,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've only recently started back after a number of years without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one. I have two communicity tanks, one chiefly populated with zebra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        danios and leopard danios, though they share the water with lemon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras and red eye tetras. My larger tank is more varied and I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        two dwarf gouramis and 2 flame gouramis. Everything was fine until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one evening when I discovered one of the dwarf gouramis lying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottom and struggling. Closer examination revealed numerous body
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wounds. I netted it and placed it in tank water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        container, expected it would be dead in a short while. The next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        morning found it still alive, though still struggling. I moved it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to a small travel tank and fungus began to grow ra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Linda
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6382 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barbs like to be in groups so a single specimen will tend to hide and shy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        away. If you have 4+ cherry barbs, you may probably see them more then any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other fish in the tank. Since they are barbs, They could develop a notorious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reputation of a bit like fin nippers. Though I have not had problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gold barbs and cherry barbs nipping fins of other fish but it has to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cautious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 20 October 2004 13:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I love the cories in my other tanks, so that's probably a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >definite "do". I have a friend w/ a cherry barb, and it is hidden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >all the time. They are very pretty little fishies, but I'd probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >lean towards some that might be more visible. Has the shyness been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >your experience w/ them, or could my friend's little barb just be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >weird?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >:~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> My vote would be for a pair of cherry barbs and some sort of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >bottom feeder,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> either a school of small cories or a few kuhlis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6383 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gal is a fairly ok size for a group of 5 neons and a betta with a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of kulhi loaches or small corys IMO as long as the filter it has is good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 20 October 2004 13:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I love the little neons! Would they really be okay in such a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >space? If I got some, how many (maximum) would be right for this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >little tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> I have just setup a 10 gallon tank for my Betta and the companions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> couple of corydoras, a group of 6 pencil fish and some snails. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >can have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> many peaceful fish as companions eg. Lampeye killi fish, many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >pencil fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> have alsonot had problems in keeping neon tetras and glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Betta but investigate this first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Sent: 20 October 2004 05:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6384 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually cherries are a bit different from other barbs in that they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        necessarily school, and can be kept in pairs. They do tend to be shy though,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but aren't known for nippiness.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Nimish Mathur" <nimmat4@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barbs like to be in groups so a single specimen will tend to hide and shy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > away. If you have 4+ cherry barbs, you may probably see them more then any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other fish in the tank. Since they are barbs, They could develop a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > notorious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reputation of a bit like fin nippers. Though I have not had problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gold barbs and cherry barbs nipping fins of other fish but it has to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cautious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>I love the cories in my other tanks, so that's probably a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>definite "do". I have a friend w/ a cherry barb, and it is hidden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>all the time. They are very pretty little fishies, but I'd probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>lean towards some that might be more visible. Has the shyness been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>your experience w/ them, or could my friend's little barb just be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>weird?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6385 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, it's not a 10 gallon, it's a 6 gallon Eclipse. I'm wondering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about having a gourami or two, and five or six neons...but I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        want at least a couple of cories. If I religiously do the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes every week, would that work...or am I dreaming?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gal is a fairly ok size for a group of 5 neons and a betta with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of kulhi loaches or small corys IMO as long as the filter it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Sent: 20 October 2004 13:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >I love the little neons! Would they really be okay in such a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >space? If I got some, how many (maximum) would be right for this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >little tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> I have just setup a 10 gallon tank for my Betta and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        companions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> couple of corydoras, a group of 6 pencil fish and some snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >can have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> many peaceful fish as companions eg. Lampeye killi fish, many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >pencil fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> have alsonot had problems in keeping neon tetras and glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Betta but investigate this first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >Sent: 20 October 2004 05:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Companions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6386 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe I could get two or three of them and put them in my 12 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Eclipse with the six guppies and two platies...??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Actually cherries are a bit different from other barbs in that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > necessarily school, and can be kept in pairs. They do tend to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shy though,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but aren't known for nippiness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Nimish Mathur" <nimmat4@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barbs like to be in groups so a single specimen will tend to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hide and shy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > away. If you have 4+ cherry barbs, you may probably see them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more then any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > other fish in the tank. Since they are barbs, They could develop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > notorious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > reputation of a bit like fin nippers. Though I have not had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gold barbs and cherry barbs nipping fins of other fish but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cautious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>I love the cories in my other tanks, so that's probably a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>definite "do". I have a friend w/ a cherry barb, and it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hidden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>all the time. They are very pretty little fishies, but I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>lean towards some that might be more visible. Has the shyness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>your experience w/ them, or could my friend's little barb just be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>weird?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6387 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sure, that should work. Nice fish and they'd add even more color to your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Maybe I could get two or three of them and put them in my 12 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Eclipse with the six guppies and two platies...??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6388 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh, Goody! I can definitely see the advantage to having several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquariums! This is SUCH a great hobby! It's a combination of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plants, animals and art...my three passions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again to all for the input and help!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sure, that should work. Nice fish and they'd add even more color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@c...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Maybe I could get two or three of them and put them in my 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Eclipse with the six guppies and two platies...??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6389 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A six really is a bit small for a school of cories, they do best in groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of at least five or six. If you could find C. pygmaeus or C. habrosus they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        might work though, since they're so small. You could also consider a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of otos, although if you went with them you might want to wait until there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is some algae established in the tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you're thinking of dwarf gouramis one would probably be best. Males will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bicker, and females aren't often seen at lfs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Barbara Linden" <linden2710@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, it's not a 10 gallon, it's a 6 gallon Eclipse. I'm wondering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about having a gourami or two, and five or six neons...but I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > want at least a couple of cories. If I religiously do the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > changes every week, would that work...or am I dreaming?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6390 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I doubt it will be good enough for gouramis but neons should be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Depends more on the dimentions of the tank then volume.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 20 October 2004 13:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Well, it's not a 10 gallon, it's a 6 gallon Eclipse. I'm wondering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >about having a gourami or two, and five or six neons...but I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >want at least a couple of cories. If I religiously do the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >changes every week, would that work...or am I dreaming?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >:~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> 10 gal is a fairly ok size for a group of 5 neons and a betta with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> of kulhi loaches or small corys IMO as long as the filter it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >is good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Sent: 20 October 2004 13:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >I love the little neons! Would they really be okay in such a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >space? If I got some, how many (maximum) would be right for this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >little tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> I have just setup a 10 gallon tank for my Betta and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >companions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> couple of corydoras, a group of 6 pencil fish and some snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >can have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> many peaceful fish as companions eg. Lampeye killi fish, many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >pencil fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> have alsonot had problems in keeping neon tetras and glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> Betta but investigate this first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >Sent: 20 October 2004 05:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Companions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6391 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh sorry, I forgot to answer the second part.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2-3 corys should be fine. As Theresa pointed out that corys like to be in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        groups but my experience with having 3 corys is just fine in a small tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Go for pygmy or panda corydoras or similar smaller ones.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: Nimish Mathur [mailto:nimmat4@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 20 October 2004 14:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I doubt it will be good enough for gouramis but neons should be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Depends more on the dimentions of the tank then volume.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Sent: 20 October 2004 13:46
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Well, it's not a 10 gallon, it's a 6 gallon Eclipse. I'm wondering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>about having a gourami or two, and five or six neons...but I also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>want at least a couple of cories. If I religiously do the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>changes every week, would that work...or am I dreaming?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>:~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> 10 gal is a fairly ok size for a group of 5 neons and a betta with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> of kulhi loaches or small corys IMO as long as the filter it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>is good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >Sent: 20 October 2004 13:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Companions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >I love the little neons! Would they really be okay in such a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >space? If I got some, how many (maximum) would be right for this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >little tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> Barb,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> I have just setup a 10 gallon tank for my Betta and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>companions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> couple of corydoras, a group of 6 pencil fish and some snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >can have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> many peaceful fish as companions eg. Lampeye killi fish, many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >pencil fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> have alsonot had problems in keeping neon tetras and glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> Betta but investigate this first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >From: Barbara Linden [mailto:linden2710@c...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >Sent: 20 October 2004 05:35
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Companions for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >I'm putting one of my bettas in my new Eclipse six gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >as soon as I get it set up properly. Any suggestions as to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >of tankmates for him? I know I can't put anything w/ him w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >fins, and am also limited due to the small size of the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >suggestions are welcome! The aquarium will have Flourite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >Thanks muchly for your time and talents!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6392 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If not a dwarf, she might be able to have either one honey or even a pair of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sparkling gouramis.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Nimish Mathur" <nimmat4@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I doubt it will be good enough for gouramis but neons should be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Depends more on the dimentions of the tank then volume.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6393 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ray , if you and our other members benefit , even just one saved fish , then I feel good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As with all great men we are only so,,, because we realize that the women in our lives steer us in the right direction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I will pass on your kind words and you know, that might just get me out of the doghouse one of these days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PS, My vet was later consulted with this treatment and he concurred and endorsed this method.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MJB-PSB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wounded Gourami question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mark, Just read this post of yours. That neosporium treatment for wounds is a great bit of information to keep in mind, even though we (hopefully) may not have too many opportunities to use it. Many thanks for sharing that with us, or should I say, many thanks to your wife. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6394 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: question which way to go Ray air pumps ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Excellent, may I just add a safety issue here?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When the air bubbles they sort of "POP" and splatter the lights and anything else nearby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Word of caution, place a clear cover over this spot so the water returns to the tank and doesn't pose a shack hazard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just don't want anyone getting zapped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Other than that easily over looked issue,  Ray is on the money 110%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Great words of aquaria wisdom there Ray <]:~}).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] question which way to go Ray air pumps ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Splicing your present air line and using two air stones will give you more aeration IF, as you mentioned, you move the air stones higher, more towards the surface where there's less pressure. You will have to get a small gang valve, with one input from the pump and two outlets for the two airlines/airstones to control the airstones. Otherwise, the airstone with the least resistance will release most of the air and the other one will do nothing. This is well worth a try. If, after you see you may not have enough air to suit your needs, you may consider getting a larger pump. But I would try the first route first, unless you feel time is of the essence. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6395 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, they are full grown, and have always been by themselves. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was under the impression that if you put a female in w/ the male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that he'll be aggressive and maybe even kill her! I'd love to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a couple in w/ him, but certainly wouldn't want any harm to come to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ANY of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That was my impression, too. But when we introduced our female to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        our male, they were instant buddies, and have been ever since. So we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        took them out of the betta breeding tank and put them back into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community tank. Of course the place we got the female always raises
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their bettas in community tanks, so she was used to company...and we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        got methuselah when he was young. Maybe it's good upbringing?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (LOL) Anyway, every betta I've ever had has made an excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community tank dweller, with the exception of one betta that liked to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nip on guppy fins. He was always flaring at something, though. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guess when you go to pick out a betta, pick one that doesn't flare at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        every little thing, and he should be okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6396 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Measuring a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to measure my fish. Also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        how do you determine how big your fish will get?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6397 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is a visual approximation. Consider it from the tip of the snout to tail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Sent: 20 October 2004 20:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Measuring a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to measure my fish. Also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >how do you determine how big your fish will get?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6398 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tip of nose to base of tail fin is considered standard length
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6399 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks, Cynthia...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey...now I feel guilty that all my "guys" are by themselves! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't have a true "community tank", and I wonder if they'd be okay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with a female in with them in their regular tank. Theirs are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        several gallons...no tiny vases or bowls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Would I be setting myself up for problems if I put "girls" in with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        these fellas? I'd just always thought they HAD to be alone, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they'd kill whatever was in with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well, they are full grown, and have always been by themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > was under the impression that if you put a female in w/ the male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that he'll be aggressive and maybe even kill her! I'd love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a couple in w/ him, but certainly wouldn't want any harm to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ANY of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That was my impression, too. But when we introduced our female to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > our male, they were instant buddies, and have been ever since. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > took them out of the betta breeding tank and put them back into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > community tank. Of course the place we got the female always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        raises
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their bettas in community tanks, so she was used to company...and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > got methuselah when he was young. Maybe it's good upbringing?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (LOL) Anyway, every betta I've ever had has made an excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > community tank dweller, with the exception of one betta that liked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nip on guppy fins. He was always flaring at something, though. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guess when you go to pick out a betta, pick one that doesn't flare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > every little thing, and he should be okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6400 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Goldfish Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How big does a common or comet goldfish get?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6401 From: Elyse Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Goldfish Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        8 - 10 inches


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Elyse & Ripley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.elyserachel.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ripley's page:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=36163&PHPSESSID=a31b48870c2930ff2c6371
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        860fc80d5d

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AIM: ElyseRachel
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Tropical Fish Connection:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PetFinder:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.petfinder.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 5:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Goldfish Question



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How big does a common or comet goldfish get?








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6402 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Goldfish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here is a controversial but probably true statement.  Properly cared for (key word is properly) they can live for several decades and grow to close to if not more than 2 feet.  I haven't seen it, but more than one person has mentioned seeing them.  They are ancient and require a whole lot more than most (not just the average) goldfish keepers do for their fish.  These aren't Koi, they are reported to be goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is it true?  I trust the people who have said it, I don't think they would have a reason to lie.  It is rare for them to grow that big, but like I said, they have to be kept very carefully.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6403 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One note about gouramis.  I don't think it would be a good idea to have two of them in a tank that small.  They can be (and when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive as two male bettas.  They will kill each other.  Having more than one can help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one would have no problem catching the others.  I wouldn't risk it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6404 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The standardized method, as mentioned, is from the very front of the mouth to the point where the fish ends and tail fin begins.  I figure that is because some fish have long fins and short bodies, like some male bettas, so it wouldn't be fair to other fish, like normal male bettas, to count the longer fins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6405 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              True for most gouramis, but not some of the smaller types like sparkling gouramis (T. pumilus)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  One note about gouramis.  I don't think it would be a good idea to have two of them in a tank that small.  They can be (and when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive as two male bettas.  They will kill each other.  Having more than one can help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one would have no problem catching the others.  I wouldn't risk it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6406 From: Michelle Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Whom do i keep my eye on??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Obviously everyone, since they have just been put in the tank. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              out of this lot are there any in particular that should be under my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              watchful eye?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 Harlequin Rasbora
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 Pearl Gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1 male Guppy (will have friends once they grow up a bit)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 Swordtails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3 Serpae tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              8 Neon Tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 BumbleBee (Goby)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 Catfish (not sure of species)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3 Black Widows

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The tank is now Stocked with 6 new plants, will put some pics in My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Album (ShelliJ) with the tank as is. Maybe you guys can help ID some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the plants, or reccommend others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Specs are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              47 gallons/180 litres
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ph 7.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Temp is 28C or 82.4F

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              MichelleJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6407 From: Tim Walker Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Always with spinning fish - feed them peas. Often the swim problem is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              caused by constipation from stress and/or flake foods. Give them some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              peas to eat and see what happens. If they eat the peas and you still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              don't get a response you can try dosing antibiotics however if it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bacterial infection the chances are that it's highly contagious. So a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              quarantine tank is a must if possible...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To prepare the peas - defrost them from your freezer and squeeze them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so they pop out of their skins. Either chop them up or feed them whole
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              depending on the fish...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Life Without Barriers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On 14/10/2004, at 3:09 PM, Barbara Linden wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The fish was fine yesterday, and has only been in the tank a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of days.  I removed it because if something IS contagious, I didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > want it to be with the others any longer than necessary.  Also, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it dies...and it more than likely will...it won't "disappear" in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank.  All the others seem fine, so I guess I should be happy with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sigh...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > A small container would'nt have as much oxygen as a full tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > clean water. Could be an infection, of something like physical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > damage, parasites or genetic anomoly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >                                         JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > So guess there's nothing I can do for it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > I hate it when I feel my hands are tied, even with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > a $1.99 fishie.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > :~(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > sounds like a swim bladder infection. common to occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > in weaker fish when the nitrate levels are high, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > it could have been where ever you bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > --- Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Is there anything that can be done for a fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > having balance trouble...spinning with head down for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > a smaller container. Is there anything that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6408 From: Aranel Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Goldfish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here is a link to a story about the "World's Biggest Goldfish", Bruce, who is a Red Oranda: http://hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/kmam1/MyPond/GiantGoldfish.html. When I was on the AOL pet boards, I heard about several people having quite large goldfish. One lady I remember, said she had a 75 gallon tank with two commons in it, and they had gone from one inch to over ten inches in a year.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Of course, this is was all hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here is a controversial but probably true statement.  Properly cared for (key word is properly) they can live for several decades and grow to close to if not more than 2 feet.  I haven't seen it, but more than one person has mentioned seeing them.  They are ancient and require a whole lot more than most (not just the average) goldfish keepers do for their fish.  These aren't Koi, they are reported to be goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is it true?  I trust the people who have said it, I don't think they would have a reason to lie.  It is rare for them to grow that big, but like I said, they have to be kept very carefully.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6409 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Goldfish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have seen an 18” goldfish myself..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 21 October 2004 04:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Goldfish question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here is a controversial but probably true statement.  Properly cared for (key word is properly) they can live for several decades and grow to close to if not more than 2 feet.  I haven't seen it, but more than one person has mentioned seeing them.  They are ancient and require a whole lot more than most (not just the average) goldfish keepers do for their fish.  These aren't Koi, they are reported to be goldfish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is it true?  I trust the people who have said it, I don't think they would have a reason to lie.  It is rare for them to grow that big, but like I said, they have to be kept very carefully.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6410 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Never kept sparkling gourami so I cannot really comment on that but with a max size of 1.5” I don’t see any problems with it. As Patrick also pointed out that they can get aggressive which is a bad idea in a small tank. If one does keep any gourami in a small tank, they should be prepared to return them to the store if things don’t work out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Dan & Theresa [mailto:dtmergl@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 21 October 2004 04:09
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:Companions for betta...?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                True for most gouramis, but not some of the smaller types like sparkling gouramis (T. pumilus)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    One note about gouramis.  I don't think it would be a good idea to have two of them in a tank that small.  They can be (and when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive as two male bettas.  They will kill each other.  Having more than one can help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one would have no problem catching the others.  I wouldn't risk it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6411 From: paul helms Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Goldfish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i missed the post that you ar talking about here, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you are talking about common goldfish or feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                goldfish, they do get that big for certain. i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                personally seen 15 inch feeder goldfish that were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                about 6 years old. they were raised in a 50 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flat back hex. these belonge dto some computer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                clients of mine, and as i am in the fish industry as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well, they are now living in a pond. last i heard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they were up to 18 inches. i have personally also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sold several for ponds that were in the same range. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have not seen any 2 footers that were not in 2,000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallons ponds that were much older. the cap for whati
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have seen is 18 inches.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Here is a controversial but probably true
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > statement. Properly cared for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (key word is properly) they can live for several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > decades and grow to close
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to if not more than 2 feet. I haven't seen it, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more than one person has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mentioned seeing them. They are ancient and require
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a whole lot more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most (not just the average) goldfish keepers do for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > their fish. These aren
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > t Koi, they are reported to be goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Is it true? I trust the people who have said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it, I don't think they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would have a reason to lie. It is rare for them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > grow that big, but like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I said, they have to be kept very carefully.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6412 From: paul helms Date: 10/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Goldfish Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                all depends on the amount of food they are able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                consume on a regular basis without being injured and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                without polluting the tank. i have seen 15 inchers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > How big does a common or comet goldfish get?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6413 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From what I've seen, they have to be accustomed to other fish, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they'll be agressive. IF you put a female in with them, make sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there are lots of plants and places to hide in, so they don't HAVE to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be together and monitor it closely to catch any problems early.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Apparantly, fish have personalities and some click and some don't.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Who knew?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Would I be setting myself up for problems if I put "girls" in with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > these fellas? I'd just always thought they HAD to be alone, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they'd kill whatever was in with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6414 From: red-eye Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Goldfish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I cared for two goldfish won at a carnival  for by my daughter. They each grew to approximately one foot (totallength).They were kept in an 80 gallon tall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At 11:11 PM 10/20/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Here is a link to a story about the "World's Biggest Goldfish", Bruce, who is a Red Oranda: http://hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/kmam1/MyPond/GiantGoldfish.html. When I was on the AOL pet boards, I heard about several people having quite large goldfish. One lady I remember, said she had a 75 gallon tank with two commons in it, and they had gone from one inch to over ten inches in a year.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Of course, this is was all hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here is a controversial but probably true statement.  Properly cared for (key word is properly) they can live for several decades and grow to close to if not more than 2 feet.  I haven't seen it, but more than one person has mentioned seeing them.  They are ancient and require a whole lot more than most (not just the average) goldfish keepers do for their fish.  These aren't Koi, they are reported to be goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is it true?  I trust the people who have said it, I don't think they would have a reason to lie.  It is rare for them to grow that big, but like I said, they have to be kept very carefully.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6415 From: Mark & Peta Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Wounded Gourami question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My Pleasure Barbara, anything to help. MJB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Wounded Gourami question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wow, Mark...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Great information!  I'd never think to use neosporin on a fish, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                though it's a "staple" around here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                THANKS!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Mark & Peta"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <mbethke@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well if all is about tried you have one more option, I had a clown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                loach that was picked on by a crawfish (chopped and feed to the rest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of the tank for his attack upon tankmates, capital offense)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > OK, I had a clown loach, it had this huge hole in the side and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                into the muscle, I knew it wouldn't survive so I went to the books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and it was of no use so I asked my wife Since she has been an RN for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                some 35 yrs (but she's only 39, for the last ten yrs [saves on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                candles]).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I used neosporium a triple antibiotic ointment made with Vaseline.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Now this does create a boundary to keep fungus out and stops
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacteria from finding the way in. You will want to follow this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                method as I will lay out:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > First, make sure your hand is wet with bottled water this way the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                slime won't stick to your skin and will stay on the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Second, Prep the area, use a "Q-TIP" to dry the hole only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Third, Use a fresh "Q-TIP" and dap a tiny bit of the triple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                antibiotic in the hole, make sure you cover all exposed flesh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Lastly , move to a bowl or other smooth walled vessel so the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can't wipe the ointment off, they don;t like it but it does work and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                doesn't hurt them, just uncomfortable. and don't forget a nice air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pump/fine air disk, the more O-2 in the water the faster it heals .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Lastly #2, Make sure you use fresh bottled water in the bowl and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                place a towel over the top so they don't jump out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The loach healed up in less then a week and was fully healed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                about a month with no ill side effects and even the skin grew back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just don't cover the whole fish in ointment or they won't be able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to pass urine. This is stupid I know we are all smarter than that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but had to add this for clarity's sake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > All the best on Halloween,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Mark J. Bethke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   From: dragon6435@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Wounded Gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   Well, I'm going to slip out of the shadows and submit a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of questions.  I'm new to this list, and while not new to aquariums,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've only recently started back after a number of years without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one.  I have two communicity tanks, one chiefly populated with zebra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                danios and leopard danios, though they share the water with lemon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tetras and red eye tetras.  My larger tank is more varied and I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                two dwarf gouramis and 2 flame gouramis.  Everything was fine until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one evening when I discovered one of the dwarf gouramis lying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bottom and struggling.  Closer examination revealed numerous body
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wounds.  I netted it and placed it in tank water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                container, expected it would be dead in a short while.  The next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                morning found it still alive, though still struggling.  I moved it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to a small travel tank and fungus began to grow ra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >   Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6416 From: shortlid Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Blue Gourami gone from spining thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for the great info Steve. The Blue Gourami already had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spining thing so I froze him. Maybe I could donate the Black Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and Black Tetras and get a freshwater Flounder!! The Two Rainbows I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                still have are by far the most agresive thing in the tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > As for the snipper, I'd look at the blue gourami first, possibly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                followed by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the black tetras assuming we are talking about _Gymnocorymbus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ternetzi_, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not something else. The blue gourami is noted for its aggression
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                toward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other fish, and the black tetras are also noted for aggression,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                except when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > kept in larger groups--larger than you have, or your tank will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                allow with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the present census.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'd probably trade out the gourami, but not replace it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                anything. I'd be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tempted to remove the black tetras also, along with the mollie. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mollie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would prefer harder water of a higher pH along with higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperatures that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you are probably not supplying, based on your fish selection. Then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'd let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my other fish grow out to fill the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Keep an eye on the size of the pl*co, however. There are many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > grow to large sizes and they are hard to identify from the start.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@j...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Scissor Tails geting there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tails SNIPED!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well my 30-gal community tank has calmed down a bit now and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seems dead on pretty much all the time. I have the one 2 ½" Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Gourmi, one Black Molly, three Black Tetras, three 2" Rainbows,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Danios, two Cherry Barbs, one 2" Pleco, one 2" Cory, and three 1"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Scissors Tails. Well something in my tank put a SNIP in one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Scissors Tails tails! Now he only has the upper part of his tail?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Seems to be fine other wise. Is three a big enough group or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > add a few more Scissors Tails? The only thing is I have heard that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the Svissor Tails will get bigger and my 30 gal. is about a max.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > capacity now?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6417 From: shortlid Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: spinning fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My Blue Gourami, did the spining thing all of a sudden. And started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                smiming upside down all over the tank. Then he layed on the botom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for 10 min. So, I flushed him, what do you think it was?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <twalker@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Always with spinning fish - feed them peas. Often the swim problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > caused by constipation from stress and/or flake foods. Give them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > peas to eat and see what happens. If they eat the peas and you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't get a response you can try dosing antibiotics however if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacterial infection the chances are that it's highly contagious. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > quarantine tank is a must if possible...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > To prepare the peas - defrost them from your freezer and squeeze
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so they pop out of their skins. Either chop them up or feed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                whole
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > depending on the fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tim Walker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Database Developer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Life Without Barriers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > +61 418 971 630
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > On 14/10/2004, at 3:09 PM, Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The fish was fine yesterday, and has only been in the tank a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of days.  I removed it because if something IS contagious, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want it to be with the others any longer than necessary.  Also,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > it dies...and it more than likely will...it won't "disappear" in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank.  All the others seem fine, so I guess I should be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Sigh...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > A small container would'nt have as much oxygen as a full tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > clean water. Could be an infection, of something like physical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > damage, parasites or genetic anomoly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >                                         JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > So guess there's nothing I can do for it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I hate it when I feel my hands are tied, even with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > a $1.99 fishie.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > :~(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > sounds like a swim bladder infection. common to occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > in weaker fish when the nitrate levels are high, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > it could have been where ever you bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > --- Barbara Linden wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Is there anything that can be done for a fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > is found to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > having balance trouble...spinning with head down for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the most part?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > It's one of the Diamond Tetra babies that I bought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > yesterday. All
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > the others seem to be fine. I got it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > tank and put it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > a smaller container. Is there anything that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > done to help it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6418 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Blue Gourami gone from spining thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Joel, I've seldom seen a problem with Black Tetras, but like many ordinarily peaceful fish, I presume this is one that can get nippy if you have just one. As Steve pointed out, they are best kept in groups, which would keep down any nippy-ness they  might tend to develop. It is best to keep Tetras (and Barbs) -- even they most peaceful ones -- in a group anyhow; as they like to school. I would recommend, however, to stay away from Tiger Barbs as they are notorious fin-nippers. Most Rainbows are extremely peaceful fish. There are a few that are quite aggressive, however, such as the Red Rainbowfish (Glossolepis incisus), unfortunately so, as they're very colorful. This should not mean that Rainbowfish in general should take a bad rap, when most are nice additions to the community tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6419 From: shortlid Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Rainbows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One Rainbow seem to like to chase the other ALL the time, but does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not nip?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Joel, I've seldom seen a problem with Black Tetras, but like many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ordinarily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > peaceful fish, I presume this is one that can get nippy if you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > As Steve pointed out, they are best kept in groups, which would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                keep down any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nippy-ness they might tend to develop. It is best to keep Tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (and Barbs)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -- even they most peaceful ones -- in a group anyhow; as they like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to school.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would recommend, however, to stay away from Tiger Barbs as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > notorious fin-nippers. Most Rainbows are extremely peaceful fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There are a few that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are quite aggressive, however, such as the Red Rainbowfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (Glossolepis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > incisus), unfortunately so, as they're very colorful. This should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not mean that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Rainbowfish in general should take a bad rap, when most are nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                additions to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > community tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6420 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: ending treatment for ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                OK Boys... Like you said to do I have got the temp down to 80° and I am holding it there... What is next.... Im thinking a water change for one of two reasons i have a plant that is dying that i need to uproot and I know it will cause a lot of guck.. ( the plants did not like the salt- i think i have lost 3 but one might pull through, one is just yellow does that mean it is going to die)  and the other reason to get some non salt water in the tank for the plants... Also how long do I hold the temp at 80°,,, thanks again for all your help.. seems that everyone is OK.. The one bleeding heart that had the ich to begin with is fine but still very pale so I don know if he is just taking a while to mend or what... I wont do anything till i hear back from ya.. thanks..Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6421 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for the info...muchly appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > One note about gouramis. I don't think it would be a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                idea to have two of them in a tank that small. They can be (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive as two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                male bettas. They will kill each other. Having more than one can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have no problem catching the others. I wouldn't risk it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6422 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Guess I should have read this post, too..!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > True for most gouramis, but not some of the smaller types like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sparkling gouramis (T. pumilus)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > One note about gouramis. I don't think it would be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                good idea to have two of them in a tank that small. They can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (and when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                two male bettas. They will kill each other. Having more than one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would have no problem catching the others. I wouldn't risk it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6423 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Actually, this isn't a surprise to me. ALL animals have their own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                personalities. More obvious w/ dogs and cats, but I can see it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my fishies, too...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From what I've seen, they have to be accustomed to other fish, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they'll be agressive. IF you put a female in with them, make sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > there are lots of plants and places to hide in, so they don't HAVE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be together and monitor it closely to catch any problems early.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Apparantly, fish have personalities and some click and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                don't.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Who knew?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Would I be setting myself up for problems if I put "girls" in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > these fellas? I'd just always thought they HAD to be alone, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they'd kill whatever was in with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6424 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Rainbows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Seems to be a standard male - female chase.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 21 October 2004 20:41
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Rainbows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >One Rainbow seem to like to chase the other ALL the time, but does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >not nip?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Joel, I've seldom seen a problem with Black Tetras, but like many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >ordinarily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> peaceful fish, I presume this is one that can get nippy if you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >just one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> As Steve pointed out, they are best kept in groups, which would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >keep down any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> nippy-ness they might tend to develop. It is best to keep Tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >(and Barbs)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> -- even they most peaceful ones -- in a group anyhow; as they like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >to school.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> I would recommend, however, to stay away from Tiger Barbs as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> notorious fin-nippers. Most Rainbows are extremely peaceful fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >There are a few that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> are quite aggressive, however, such as the Red Rainbowfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >(Glossolepis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> incisus), unfortunately so, as they're very colorful. This should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >not mean that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Rainbowfish in general should take a bad rap, when most are nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >additions to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> community tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6425 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, I hope you waited 3 days after not seeing any Ich, before you lowered the temperature. If not, it could come back. Otherwise, keep the temperature at 80 for two days and then down to 76. I don't think it was the salt that the plants didn't like. Some of the plants do not like prolonged temperatures of high heat. You didn't have that much salt in there if you were using 12 tsps. per 20 gallons as you said. Yes, you can start making water changes now. If you're afraid that the salt may hurt the plants, better forget adding any as a long-term thing as you were thinking about. I guess the Ich was gone as of Monday evening(?). Let us know if any other problems come up. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6426 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Rainbows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This may not be aggression then; it just may be a male chasing a female. They will behave in this manner often, that's one reason why its better to have at least two females with the male so that one fish doesn't get chased all the time. If you are familiar with Zebra Danios, they behave in the same way, always chasing each other, but no damage is done; that's just their nature. Even such peaceful fish as Cherry Barbs will sort of play around with brief chases. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6427 From: Chris Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have neons in with my 3 female betas. Just don't put a male in with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                females. The females will eat the males tail.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Guess I should have read this post, too..!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > True for most gouramis, but not some of the smaller types like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sparkling gouramis (T. pumilus)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > One note about gouramis. I don't think it would be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > good idea to have two of them in a tank that small. They can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (and when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > two male bettas. They will kill each other. Having more than one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would have no problem catching the others. I wouldn't risk it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6428 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeppers I haven't see any ich since actually sat night... but I figured Sunday was a safe day... to make sure and then 3 days... .. Good point about the heat and plants... I guess will be interesting to see if they bounce back or what not... Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, I hope you waited 3 days after not seeing any Ich, before you lowered the temperature. If not, it could come back. Otherwise, keep the temperature at 80 for two days and then down to 76. I don't think it was the salt that the plants didn't like. Some of the plants do not like prolonged temperatures of high heat. You didn't have that much salt in there if you were using 12 tsps. per 20 gallons as you said. Yes, you can start making water changes now. If you're afraid that the salt may hurt the plants, better forget adding any as a long-term thing as you were thinking about. I guess the Ich was gone as of Monday evening(?). Let us know if any other problems come up. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6429 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                No problem, at least you played it safe. Fish should be o.k. now. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6430 From: Michelle Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Chemical water stabilizers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am trying to work out what the best thing is for me to do, in order
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to keep an eye on the Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate levels. I am aware of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the whole 'New Tank Syndrome'. I have been looking on PetSmart and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                found these things:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3Eprd_id=845524441807386&FOLDER%3C%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3Efolder_id=2534374302030068&ASSORTMENT%3C%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1098402369497

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and this one:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3Eprd_id=845524441781310&FOLDER%3C%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3Efolder_id=2534374302030068&ASSORTMENT%3C%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1098402369477

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I see there that they say neither of these will affect the tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                biological cycle, but isn't it better for the tank to build itself up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rather than me intervene, or should I be monitoring the levels and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                really helping the bacteria this 1st time around?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am also looking into the different sorts of under gravel filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                since a file on here said something about that also being helpful in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lowering the ammonia & nitrite levels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TYIA :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                MichelleJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6431 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Chemical water stabilizers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I couldn't see the links, so I don't know what they are.  My suggestion is that the only three chemicals that should ever go into a tank are salt (if needed or wanted), a chlorine remover that only removes chlorine and chloranimine and nothing else, and plant fertilizers for the plants.  If you want something to build up the bacteria, Paul suggests stress zyme, and I have only heard good things about Bio spira and Fritz Turbo/Zyme.  I prefer a natural cycle using only chlorine remover when doing water changes.  Look into fishless cycles.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Best filtration, to me, is a simple hang on back power filter.  That is my opinion and everybody has their own opinion about which is best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And you might want to click the link below my name to learn more about the cycle. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am trying to work out what the best thing is for me to do, in order
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to keep an eye on the Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate levels. I am aware of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the whole 'New Tank Syndrome'. I have been looking on PetSmart and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  found these things:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I see there that they say neither of these will affect the tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  biological cycle, but isn't it better for the tank to build itself up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  rather than me intervene, or should I be monitoring the levels and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  really helping the bacteria this 1st time around?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am also looking into the different sorts of under gravel filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  since a file on here said something about that also being helpful in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  lowering the ammonia & nitrite levels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  TYIA :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  MichelleJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6432 From: Steve Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Blue Gourami gone from spining thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is what I get when I am doing this as I am about to drop. I passed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  right over the rainbows. You should probably get rid of them as well. I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  replace them with some nice looking cories, three would be good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Skip the flounder. It will not last long in the tank. They do not make good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  aquarium fish, in my experience. If you can get it beyond the six month
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mark, you are doing good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Remember, we are freeing up some room in your tank to give your remaining
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish room to grow. Even though you are buying juvenile fish, stock the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  like they are all adult fish, then remove a few <g>. This will then help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  assure your fish lead long, happy, healthy lives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Blue Gourami gone from spining
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thing




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the great info Steve. The Blue Gourami already had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  spining thing so I froze him. Maybe I could donate the Black Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and Black Tetras and get a freshwater Flounder!! The Two Rainbows I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  still have are by far the most agresive thing in the tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Joel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the snipper, I'd look at the blue gourami first, possibly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  followed by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the black tetras assuming we are talking about _Gymnocorymbus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ternetzi_, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not something else. The blue gourami is noted for its aggression
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  toward
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > other fish, and the black tetras are also noted for aggression,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  except when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > kept in larger groups--larger than you have, or your tank will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  allow with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the present census.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'd probably trade out the gourami, but not replace it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  anything. I'd be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tempted to remove the black tetras also, along with the mollie. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mollie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > would prefer harder water of a higher pH along with higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  temperatures that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > you are probably not supplying, based on your fish selection. Then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > my other fish grow out to fill the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Keep an eye on the size of the pl*co, however. There are many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  them that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > grow to large sizes and they are hard to identify from the start.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@j...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Scissor Tails geting there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tails SNIPED!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Well my 30-gal community tank has calmed down a bit now and water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > seems dead on pretty much all the time. I have the one 2 ½" Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gourmi, one Black Molly, three Black Tetras, three 2" Rainbows,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Danios, two Cherry Barbs, one 2" Pleco, one 2" Cory, and three 1"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Scissors Tails. Well something in my tank put a SNIP in one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Scissors Tails tails! Now he only has the upper part of his tail?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Seems to be fine other wise. Is three a big enough group or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > add a few more Scissors Tails? The only thing is I have heard that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the Svissor Tails will get bigger and my 30 gal. is about a max.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > capacity now?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Joel








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6433 From: wjcoldman Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wanted to let everyone know of a problem I just encountered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My submersable heater shorted out and fryed my fish. I had not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  encountered this problem since I got rid of my oscars. I had been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  loosing fish for about week, one or two a day. Checked out my water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and all the tests were perfect, then I put my hand in the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  got a little shock. I will be buying a grounding probe tomorrow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hope this reminds everyone so they don't loose fish too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6434 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wow.. Yikes. Is al li can say.. do heaters that sit outside the water partially have that same issue.. or just ones that are fully submergible. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wanted to let everyone know of a problem I just encountered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My submersable heater shorted out and fryed my fish. I had not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  encountered this problem since I got rid of my oscars. I had been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  loosing fish for about week, one or two a day. Checked out my water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and all the tests were perfect, then I put my hand in the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  got a little shock. I will be buying a grounding probe tomorrow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hope this reminds everyone so they don't loose fish too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6435 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: ending treatment for ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  With more light now, the yellow plant should start to green - up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6436 From: Barbara Linden Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, guess I'll find out. I put my favorite male betta in my 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallon aquarium today. He's in with the baby Diamond Tetras, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ottos, a small herd of Corycats...and a beautiful purple female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  betta. I'm sure he thinks he's died and gone to Heaven.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've watched 'em a LOT, and no problems with anything. He's so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  beautiful, swimming gracefully around...inspecting everything! It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a planted tank with a lovely piece of driftwood that's partly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hollow. He and his new girlfriend are getting along great, so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  None of the others are paying any attention to him. This is a betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that my sister rescued from her boss, who was gonna flush him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  because he was "ugly", then my sister kept him for months in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  glass on her windowsill by the kitchen sink (no sunlight on him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  though).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Eventually, I was able to talk her out of him. He's been in several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gallons at my home, but the 25 gallon tank must truly be a wonderful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  experience for him. It feels GOOD to watch him, knowing his history.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Barb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Chris"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <cjreporter98@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have neons in with my 3 female betas. Just don't put a male in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > females. The females will eat the males tail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Linden" <linden2710@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Guess I should have read this post, too..!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > True for most gouramis, but not some of the smaller types like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > sparkling gouramis (T. pumilus)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > One note about gouramis. I don't think it would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > good idea to have two of them in a tank that small. They can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > (and when they are kept properly they are) almost as aggressive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > two male bettas. They will kill each other. Having more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > can help, but again, in a 6 gallon tank the most aggressive one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > would have no problem catching the others. I wouldn't risk it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6437 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Companions for betta...?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A saga truly better than the Nemo story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6438 From: paul helms Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you mean boiled your fish right? because to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  shocked you have to be grounded, that is why you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  shocked. the free floating electricity will not harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish, but hot water may.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- wjcoldman <wjcoldman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Just wanted to let everyone know of a problem I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > just encountered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > My submersable heater shorted out and fryed my fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I had not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > encountered this problem since I got rid of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > oscars. I had been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > loosing fish for about week, one or two a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Checked out my water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and all the tests were perfect, then I put my hand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > got a little shock. I will be buying a grounding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > probe tomorrow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hope this reminds everyone so they don't loose fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6439 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most any heater can "short-out" (thermostat points stick together), submersible or hang-ons, and can cook your fish as the thermostat then will not shut off and the temperature rises above what they can tolerate. That is why on larger tanks it is advisable to use two heaters, each of which is rated for only half the total required wattage normally used to keep your tank at the proper temperature. That way, if a heater fails (points sticking), it can't cook your fish. The old requirement used 3 Watts per gallon, which I much prefer over some recent recommendations of 5 Watts per gallon I've seen lately, and this is quite sufficient. So for instance, a 20 gallon tank requires 60 Watts. No they don't make 30 Watt heaters, but two 25 Watts would be fine. Occassionally, the glass tube of a heater (any heater) may crack, and with any water seepage inside of it, it can give you a shock when putting your hand in the water, severely so if you're grounded although I've occassionally experienced a tingle without being grounded. Heater tubes can crack a number of ways. Sometimes large fish (Oscars) will smash into them. More often it happens when doing large water changes, when the water level goes down below the heater and then fresh water is added. With some hang-on heaters, excessive spray from a nearby airstone over time, which soaks the top of the heater allowing seepage down through the control top, can cause current to stray from within the heater making the tank water live. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6440 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Three letters: GFI
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know a lot of people disagree and think they need a grounding rod, but I agree with you, Paul.  But only on the stray current issue claimed to exist by grounding rod people.  The glass of the tank should be enough to prevent the tank from being grounded, so the current shouldn't have anywhere to go.  Once a grounding rod is added there is a path for the current and electrocution is possible.  I have found a way to test this.  Jump in the air and stick your hand in the water.  If you get a shock, there is something grounding the tank.  If you don't get a shock, the tank isn't grounded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The problem is, and the theory behind grounding rods is, that even when not grounded the current still exists in the tank and can kill off fish with lateral line diseases.  This has been questioned.  If you talk about a complicated piece of equipment like a heater, if it is not broken and has a seal (if it doesn't throw it out!) it shouldn't send out current into the tank.  If it breaks it still has a hot wire and a cold wire for current to flow from the outlet to the heater to the tank to the cold wire to the outlet again.  I think that would be enough to shock.  A grounding rod wouldn't help here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My suggestion, get  a ground fault interrupter.  You can put it on the outlet and plug a power outlet stip into that and all the equipment into the outlet strip.  Any change in current caused by water will trip the GFI and prevent electrocution.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you mean boiled your fish right?  because to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    shocked you have to be grounded, that is why you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    shocked.  the free floating electricity will not harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish, but hot water may.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6441 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't get a grounding rod, get a GFI.  See the other message I just sent for more details. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just wanted to let everyone know of a problem I just encountered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My submersable heater shorted out and fryed my fish. I had not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      encountered this problem since I got rid of my oscars. I had been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      loosing fish for about week, one or two a day. Checked out my water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and all the tests were perfect, then I put my hand in the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      got a little shock. I will be buying a grounding probe tomorrow. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hope this reminds everyone so they don't loose fish too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6442 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Today I noticed a white spot just one on the tail of my tetra. Do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      get ich? Since the bottle of ich killer stuff says not to use on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tetras, I just got them from the pet store about 4 days ago. How can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      treat it if it is ick. The tetras are silverish clear with white and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      black top and bottom fins and with a red tail. thanks for any info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6443 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      well if you look at back posts over thepast 2 weeks you'll read all about what i just went through with my fish including tetras and ich.. as it is Friday and posts slow for the weekend that is your best bet for quickest advice.... the treat ment is for tetras, Cory's and frogs.. and was used with salt and heat no medicine... and yes does sound like you have ich.. good luck Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Today I noticed a white spot just one on the tail of my tetra. Do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      get ich? Since the bottle of ich killer stuff says not to use on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tetras, I just got them from the pet store about 4 days ago. How can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      treat it if it is ick. The tetras are silverish clear with white and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      black top and bottom fins and with a red tail. thanks for any info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6444 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Would'nt a grounded plug, (tri-polar or wide and narrow prongs) be the ground for the tank if there's a non-circuit-breaking short in the heater?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Joe P 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Three letters: GFI
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I know a lot of people disagree and think they need a grounding rod, but I agree with you, Paul. But only on the stray current issue claimed to exist by grounding rod people. The glass of the tank should be enough to prevent the tank from being grounded, so the current shouldn't have anywhere to go. Once a grounding rod is added there is a path for the current and electrocution is possible. I have found a way to test this. Jump in the air and stick your hand in the water. If you get a shock, there is something grounding the tank. If you don't get a shock, the tank isn't grounded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The problem is, and the theory behind grounding rods is, that even when not grounded the current still exists in the tank and can kill off fish with lateral line diseases. This has been questioned. If you talk about a complicated piece of equipment like a heater, if it is not broken and has a seal (if it doesn't throw it out!) it shouldn't send out current into the tank. If it breaks it still has a hot wire and a cold wire for current to flow from the outlet to the heater to the tank to the cold wire to the outlet again. I think that would be enough to shock. A grounding rod wouldn't help here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My suggestion, get a ground fault interrupter. You can put it on the outlet and plug a power outlet stip into that and all the equipment into the outlet strip. Any change in current caused by water will trip the GFI and prevent electrocution.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you mean boiled your fish right? because to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shocked you have to be grounded, that is why you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shocked. the free floating electricity will not harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish, but hot water may.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6445 From: paul helms Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Broken Heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ground for the item plugged in. does nto ground the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank. it is glas or plastic and does not conduct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      electricity. the thing touching teh electricity must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be grounded to get shocked, so the fish would have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      be sitting on gravel or rocks to get shocked.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- j.pascavage@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Would'nt a grounded plug, (tri-polar or wide and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > narrow prongs) be the ground for the tank if there's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a non-circuit-breaking short in the heater?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Three letters: GFI
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I know a lot of people disagree and think they need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a grounding rod, but I agree with you, Paul. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > only on the stray current issue claimed to exist by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > grounding rod people. The glass of the tank should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > be enough to prevent the tank from being grounded,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > so the current shouldn't have anywhere to go. Once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > grounding rod is added there is a path for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > current and electrocution is possible. I have found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a way to test this. Jump in the air and stick your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hand in the water. If you get a shock, there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > something grounding the tank. If you don't get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > shock, the tank isn't grounded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The problem is, and the theory behind grounding rods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > is, that even when not grounded the current still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > exists in the tank and can kill off fish with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > lateral line diseases. This has been questioned. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > you talk about a complicated piece of equipment like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a heater, if it is not broken and has a seal (if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > doesn't throw it out!) it shouldn't send out current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > into the tank. If it breaks it still has a hot wire
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and a cold wire for current to flow from the outlet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to the heater to the tank to the cold wire to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > outlet again. I think that would be enough to shock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > A grounding rod wouldn't help here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My suggestion, get a ground fault interrupter. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > can put it on the outlet and plug a power outlet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > stip into that and all the equipment into the outlet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > strip. Any change in current caused by water will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > trip the GFI and prevent electrocution.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > you mean boiled your fish right? because to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > shocked you have to be grounded, that is why you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > shocked. the free floating electricity will not harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish, but hot water may.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6446 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I need to clean my silk plants. I found on the internet that you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      use bleach water to clean the plants. I tried it but I can still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      smell bleach on the plants after rinsing and soaking them in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water. I am afried to use them in my tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6447 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yep you need to soak them for like a day in water conditioner like stress coat... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I need to clean my silk plants. I found on the internet that you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      use bleach water to clean the plants. I tried it but I can still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      smell bleach on the plants after rinsing and soaking them in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      water. I am afried to use them in my tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6448 From: Steve Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Measuring a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are two different length measurements: Standard Length (SL) and Total
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Length (TL).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      TL is easy--simply measure the fish from the tip of the snout to the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the caudal (tail) fin, including extensions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      SL is the measurement of a fish from the tip of the snout to the caudal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      peduncle. The caudal peduncle can probably be best described as the part o
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the body that supports the caudal fin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How long an individual fish will grow depends on many factors, but to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      good idea of how long a fish will grow, you need to consult the literature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about the species. Some literature will give you ballpark figures (4-5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      inches) while others will be specific. Also, working with a species will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      give you an idea of how long they will grow. Observations of fish in others
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks will also help in determining the eventual size of a fish. Keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mind that you will seldom see a full grown fish at your LFS. Also keep in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mind that when reading descriptions of fish in the wild, the size may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      different from specimens of the same species raised in a tank. A tank raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish may be larger or smaller than wild fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Many years ago the Northeast Council of Aquarium Societies published a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      listing of species along with the size they can be expected to be full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      grown. This listing is rather rare, but checking with dealers in aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      literature may eventually turn up a copy. There are also some Xerox copies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of this booklet floating around.. This booklet can be considered to be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bible of fish sizes because of the way it was compiled, and it took several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      years to compile. The sizes listed are based on published sizes in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      scientific and hobby literature as well as actual observations of fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tanks by experienced aquarists. (There has been some talk about revising the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      booklet to include species that were not in the hobby 20+ years ago when the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      booklet was first compiled, but no real movement on actually doing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Having contributed to the booklet and being peripherally involved in its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      production, I can tell you it was no small task to compile the booklet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      originally.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 3:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Measuring a fish




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to measure my fish. Also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      how do you determine how big your fish will get?








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6449 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hubby is changing the water in the aquarium, and he just called me in to look at my adult Mickey Mouse Platy. He noticed it first, because it's more noticable when looking straight down from above the water instead of looking through the glass ... my adult Mickey Mouse platy's back appears to have been injured somehow. Her body no longer goes in a straight line nose to tailfin... it is now curved. So she is almost S-shaped when looking down on her. It's not that she is swimming and maneuvering corners ... she is STUCK in this curved position. Maybe she broke her back or something??? She's been spending a lot of time since yesterday at the top of the water, and at first I thought it was because hubby (trying to be helpful) put in twice recommended dose of Had A Snail yesterday morning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not sure how this could have happened. I just did a water test day before yesterday, using liquid test kit, so I doubt the water has anything to do with it. Here are my test results from day before yesterday just in case :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ammonia : 0 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      pH : between 7.4 - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      NitrIte : 0 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      NitrAte : 10 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There have been NO new additions to the tank (decorations, fish, nor plants) nor has anything been rearranged, so I can't think of what she could have done to injure herself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      She's staying at the surface of the water, in the corners, and just in general looks horrible. I'm wondering what (if anything) I can do to help her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Any advice is much appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6450 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sounds like it might possibly be piscine tuberculosis. This is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      called mycobacteriosis. There is a few suggested treatments but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are very effective. This is a bacterial infection but not one easily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cured by just throwing in antibiotics. This is an infection that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      many fish can live with for a long while without showing any obvious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      signs and when water conditions change or degrade over time, it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      attack hard. I believe livebearers are one of the most affected
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      groups by this disease. Had a snail can be a big stressor on fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      especially on gill function. There are a lot of websites with info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      on tuberculosis that you should definitely read. Also look up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      affects of copper on fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dattilo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hubby is changing the water in the aquarium, and he just called me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > look at my adult Mickey Mouse Platy. He noticed it first, because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it's more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > noticable when looking straight down from above the water instead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > through the glass ... my adult Mickey Mouse platy's back appears to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > been injured somehow. Her body no longer goes in a straight line
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nose to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tailfin... it is now curved. So she is almost S-shaped when looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      down on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > her. It's not that she is swimming and maneuvering corners ... she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is STUCK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in this curved position. Maybe she broke her back or something???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      She's been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > spending a lot of time since yesterday at the top of the water, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      at first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I thought it was because hubby (trying to be helpful) put in twice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommended dose of Had A Snail yesterday morning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not sure how this could have happened. I just did a water test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > before yesterday, using liquid test kit, so I doubt the water has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to do with it. Here are my test results from day before yesterday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      just in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > case :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia : 0 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > pH : between 7.4 - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > NitrIte : 0 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > NitrAte : 10 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > There have been NO new additions to the tank (decorations, fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nor plants)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > nor has anything been rearranged, so I can't think of what she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      could have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > done to injure herself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > She's staying at the surface of the water, in the corners, and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > general looks horrible. I'm wondering what (if anything) I can do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Any advice is much appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6451 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 466
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Well, I did a search for piscine tuberculosis, and this link http://www.oceanrider.com/articledetail.asp?ArtNo=36 said this about signs of it :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Mycobacteriosis is a chronic fish disease that progresses quite slowly. It may take years for an infected fish to develop any symptoms of apparent illness and much longer before it becomes fatal. The glacial progression of the disease makes it difficult to diagnose. Some early signs to look out for include lethargy, fin loss, emaciation, skin inflammation and ulceration, edema, popeye, and peritonitis. In later stages, nodules may develop in muscles and deform the fish."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well ... that does not sound AT ALL like what is wrong with my Mickey Mouse Platy. It's not that she is lumpy, it looks like her spine is curved. Can fish get scoliosis? *only half joking*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live Journal icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sounds like it might possibly be piscine tuberculosis.  This is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      called mycobacteriosis.  There is a few suggested treatments but none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are very effective.  This is a bacterial infection but not one easily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cured by just throwing in antibiotics.  This is an infection that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      many fish can live with for a long while without showing any obvious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      signs and when water conditions change or degrade over time, it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      attack hard.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6452 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Digest Number 466
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There are many symptoms, different fish show none or many of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      symptoms, even among the same tank and same species. I was basing it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      on the curved spine symptom. If you have any books with fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      diseases there are many classic pictures of this disease of fish with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      curved spines. TB is also known as bent-spine disease. If you did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      any searches on the internet using such keywords as misshapen bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      curved spine fish , you will come up with hundreds of links and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      almost every one of them refers to mycobacteriosis or fish TB. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      only other causes I have found is malnutrition or whirling disease,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      which is very similar to TB. Here are some quotes from websites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about TB, I'll let you search for them yourself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If infection spreads to the skeletal system, deformities such as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bent spine may be noticed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      notes about this is like mycobacteriosis can distort the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      spine and lead to curvatures
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mycobacteriosis is perhaps the commonest cause of fish deaths. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      some of the characteristics I'd generally associate with an "old"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish, its gently arched spine, darkened colors and enlarged head, its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      slowed metabolism, may be premature ageing brought on by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mycobacteriosis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Clinical signs of tuberculosis are quite variable. The most common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      signs are anorexia, emaciation, vertebral deformities, exophthalmus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and loss of normal coloration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      curvature of the spine in the fish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dattilo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well, I did a search for piscine tuberculosis, and this link
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > oceanrider.com/articledetail.asp?ArtNo=36 said this about signs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Mycobacteriosis is a chronic fish disease that progresses quite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      slowly. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > may take years for an infected fish to develop any symptoms of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      apparent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > illness and much longer before it becomes fatal. The glacial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      progression of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the disease makes it difficult to diagnose. Some early signs to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      look out for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > include lethargy, fin loss, emaciation, skin inflammation and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ulceration,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > edema, popeye, and peritonitis. In later stages, nodules may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      develop in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > muscles and deform the fish."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Well ... that does not sound AT ALL like what is wrong with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mickey Mouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Platy. It's not that she is lumpy, it looks like her spine is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      curved. Can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish get scoliosis? *only half joking*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > CelticParents : Pagan info, sigtags, Incredimail letters, and Live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Journal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > icons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Erin's Naughty Tags : my adult-oriented "always list" for sigtags
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sounds like it might possibly be piscine tuberculosis. This is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > called mycobacteriosis. There is a few suggested treatments but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      none
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > are very effective. This is a bacterial infection but not one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      easily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > cured by just throwing in antibiotics. This is an infection that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > many fish can live with for a long while without showing any obvious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > signs and when water conditions change or degrade over time, it can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > attack hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6453 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not stress coat!!!!!!!!!!  Too expensive!!!!!! :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yep you need to soak them for like a day in water conditioner like stress coat... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I need to clean my silk plants. I found on the internet that you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        use bleach water to clean the plants. I tried it but I can still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        smell bleach on the plants after rinsing and soaking them in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water. I am afried to use them in my tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6454 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Since these are live bearers, almost any problem that a common live bearer has can be traced to genetics or internal parasites.  It isn't a disease, it is just their genes make them shaped like this as they age.  Or problems are caused by internal parasites that can be removed with anti parasite food.  They will be dead in a few days whatever it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6455 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Digest Number 466
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't think fish TB is common, I think I remember it being very rare.  Since this is a livebearer, it is much more likely to be typical livebearer problems.  A lot of them die like this, especially guppies.  I have also had danios die like this.  It doesn't spread outside the fish that are directly related.  In the cases of the danios, it was only the danios that were all related and the fry of those related fish.  That is why I think the problem is a gene that gets over-bred into the population and causes the problem after a certain time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, I did a search for piscine tuberculosis, and this link http://www.oceanrider.com/articledetail.asp?ArtNo=36 said this about signs of it :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Mycobacteriosis is a chronic fish disease that progresses quite slowly. It may take years for an infected fish to develop any symptoms of apparent illness and much longer before it becomes fatal. The glacial progression of the disease makes it difficult to diagnose. Some early signs to look out for include lethargy, fin loss, emaciation, skin inflammation and ulceration, edema, popeye, and peritonitis. In later stages, nodules may develop in muscles and deform the fish."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well ... that does not sound AT ALL like what is wrong with my Mickey Mouse Platy. It's not that she is lumpy, it looks like her spine is curved. Can fish get scoliosis? *only half joking*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6456 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 11/5/2004, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Friday November 5, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The next reminder for this event will be sent in 9 days, 1 hour, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.sfaquarium.org/about.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We meet the first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Founded in 1923, the San Francisco Aquarium Society is regarded as one of the nation's esteemed aquarium hobbyist organizations.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6457 From: rob Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: ideal food for Jurupari
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hi there !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am wondering if anyone out there can suggest an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ideal food for a Jurupari. He is a juvie, just under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            four inches, and so far I have been feeding him the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            regular sinking food that I use to feed my Pictus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Catfish and Leporinus. He seems to be uninterested in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any kind of floating or slow sinking food, preferring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to feed off of the bottom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Problem is that the size of the pellets I use is a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            too small for him. He nibbles about, but often misses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            solitary pellets (if there is a cluster of them he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            finds them no problem) - Not wanting to have a bunch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of uneaten food in my tank, I am looking for a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            alternative than what I am using.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Anyone out there have experinece with Jurupari ? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            would appreciate any feeding advice that you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have. Research I have done keeps teling me that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are not strictly bottom feeders, so is there some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            floating food which would entice him, or should I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            go out and buy a larger sized sinking food ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ::: rob in San Diego
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6458 From: neshs84 Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello anybody whos reading this. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have had my aquarium for about 3 months now. I was wondering if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            am doing anything wrong, b/c my water quality is great, but the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is cloudy most of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tank size: 25 gallons

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tank community: 5 neon tetras, 4 almost adult guppies, and about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            guppy fry that are 1 1/2 months old, 2 cory cats and 1 snail

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Temperature: 78*- 80*F (Visitherm heater)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Test date: 10-23-04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            pH: 7.0-7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ammonia: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nitrites: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nitrates: ~0.0-.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Filter: Whisper 20-40 (use Diamond blend in filter cartridge)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Water change: every 2 weeks, about 5 gallons (Aquasafe conditioner)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have a few live plants, maybe 5, the rest are fake.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I feed my fish, guppies and tetras, Tetra Min tropical crisps about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            times a day and sometimes Aqua Select Brine Shrimp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I feed my 2 cory cats Wardley Algae Discs (4 discs a day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All of my fishies fins are up and look happy. What can I do to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my water be clearer? I have a 5 gallon and its water is crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clear, but I just set that up yesterday. :-P Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            appriciated thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A little about myself if you care to know. I am a 20 yr old college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            student in Crookston, MN. I was born in Calcutta, India and adopted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            by an american family. SO here i am today! I have always loved fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and the water. I have wanted a tank for so long, so I got one about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 months ago, its just a 25 gallon... I WANT BIGGER! :-) Who doesnt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            unless you already have a HUGE one. I am thinking about going into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oceanography or computers, havent decided yet! :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            later,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ganesh H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6459 From: harry perry Date: 10/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water Quality?/To Ganesh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Dear Ganesh,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I loved reading your post. So straight forward and to the point. I care to know about all our members. Many times our love of our little critters results in over feeding. I suspect this is the case. Try feeding once a day. The cory don't need extra food. They will do quite well with what the other fish didn't eat. In my 30 gal. community tank I have rainbows, neon tetras and 4 corys. I feed flake food once a day. I also use whisper filters and supplement with a sponge filter because my whisper stops when the power "blinks" during a thunder storm. The corys actually swim into the bubbles and ride to the top and then start over. Fun to watch. You appear to be doing everything right, much more so then most folks. Keep it up and stay in touch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A moderator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            neshs84 <neshs84@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello anybody whos reading this. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have had my aquarium for about 3 months now. I was wondering if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            am doing anything wrong, b/c my water quality is great, but the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is cloudy most of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tank size: 25 gallons

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tank community: 5 neon tetras, 4 almost adult guppies, and about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            guppy fry that are 1 1/2 months old, 2 cory cats and 1 snail

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Temperature: 78*- 80*F (Visitherm heater)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Test date: 10-23-04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            pH: 7.0-7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ammonia: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nitrites: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nitrates: ~0.0-.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Filter: Whisper 20-40 (use Diamond blend in filter cartridge)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Water change: every 2 weeks, about 5 gallons (Aquasafe conditioner)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have a few live plants, maybe 5, the rest are fake.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I feed my fish, guppies and tetras, Tetra Min tropical crisps about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            times a day and sometimes Aqua Select Brine Shrimp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I feed my 2 cory cats Wardley Algae Discs (4 discs a day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All of my fishies fins are up and look happy. What can I do to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my water be clearer? I have a 5 gallon and its water is crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clear, but I just set that up yesterday. :-P Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            appriciated thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A little about myself if you care to know. I am a 20 yr old college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            student in Crookston, MN. I was born in Calcutta, India and adopted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            by an american family. SO here i am today! I have always loved fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and the water. I have wanted a tank for so long, so I got one about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3 months ago, its just a 25 gallon... I WANT BIGGER! :-) Who doesnt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            unless you already have a HUGE one. I am thinking about going into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oceanography or computers, havent decided yet! :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            later,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ganesh H.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6460 From: paul helms Date: 10/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the cloudiness is probably a slight lack of bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the bi weekly water changes are probably keeping the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ammonia and its counter parts in check, but they also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cut down the amount of bacteria in the tank. i would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            recommend dosing the tank weekly with live bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it always helps. there are a few out there, i like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stress zyme, i think pat like fritz zyme, theer is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            also bio spira which must be kept cold, and "cycle"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            which i would never recomend myself. try cutting down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on the food also....generally once a day or twice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (small amounts ) is ok, but 3 times is over kill. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            would also only supplement the cori's once a week,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they will do fine with the scraps from the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- neshs84 <neshs84@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hello anybody whos reading this. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have had my aquarium for about 3 months now. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wondering if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > am doing anything wrong, b/c my water quality is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > great, but the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is cloudy most of the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Tank size: 25 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Tank community: 5 neon tetras, 4 almost adult
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guppies, and about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guppy fry that are 1 1/2 months old, 2 cory cats and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 1 snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Temperature: 78*- 80*F (Visitherm heater)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Test date: 10-23-04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pH: 7.0-7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ammonia: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nitrites: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nitrates: ~0.0-.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Filter: Whisper 20-40 (use Diamond blend in filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cartridge)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Water change: every 2 weeks, about 5 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (Aquasafe conditioner)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have a few live plants, maybe 5, the rest are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I feed my fish, guppies and tetras, Tetra Min
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tropical crisps about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > times a day and sometimes Aqua Select Brine Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I feed my 2 cory cats Wardley Algae Discs (4 discs a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > day)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > All of my fishies fins are up and look happy. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can I do to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > my water be clearer? I have a 5 gallon and its water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > clear, but I just set that up yesterday. :-P Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > appriciated thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > A little about myself if you care to know. I am a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yr old college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > student in Crookston, MN. I was born in Calcutta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > India and adopted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > by an american family. SO here i am today! I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > always loved fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and the water. I have wanted a tank for so long, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I got one about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 months ago, its just a 25 gallon... I WANT BIGGER!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :-) Who doesnt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > unless you already have a HUGE one. I am thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > about going into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Oceanography or computers, havent decided yet! :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > later,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ganesh H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6461 From: Scorp1on Date: 10/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tried shortening the amount of time the light was on the tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: 10/24/04 02:47:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the cloudiness is probably a slight lack of bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the bi weekly water changes are probably keeping the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ammonia and its counter parts in check, but they also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cut down the amount of bacteria in the tank.  i would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            recommend dosing the tank weekly with live bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it always helps.  there are a few out there, i like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stress zyme, i think pat like fritz zyme, theer is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            also bio spira which must be kept cold, and "cycle"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            which i would never recomend myself.  try cutting down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on the food also....generally once a day or twice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (small amounts ) is ok, but 3 times is over kill.  i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            would also only supplement the cori's once a week,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they will do fine with the scraps from the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- neshs84 <neshs84@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hello anybody whos reading this. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have had my aquarium for about 3 months now. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wondering if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > am doing anything wrong, b/c my water quality is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > great, but the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is cloudy most of the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Tank size: 25 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Tank community: 5 neon tetras, 4 almost adult
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guppies, and about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guppy fry that are 1 1/2 months old, 2 cory cats and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 1 snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Temperature: 78*- 80*F (Visitherm heater)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Test date: 10-23-04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pH: 7.0-7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ammonia: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nitrites: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nitrates: ~0.0-.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Filter: Whisper 20-40 (use Diamond blend in filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cartridge)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Water change: every 2 weeks, about 5 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (Aquasafe conditioner)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have a few live plants, maybe 5, the rest are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I feed my fish, guppies and tetras, Tetra Min
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tropical crisps about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > times a day and sometimes Aqua Select Brine Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I feed my 2 cory cats Wardley Algae Discs (4 discs a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > day)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > All of my fishies fins are up and look happy. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can I do to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > my water be clearer? I have a 5 gallon and its water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > clear, but I just set that up yesterday. :-P Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > appriciated thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > A little about myself if you care to know. I am a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yr old college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > student in Crookston, MN. I was born in Calcutta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > India and adopted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > by an american family. SO here i am today! I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > always loved fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and the water. I have wanted a tank for so long, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I got one about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 months ago, its just a 25 gallon... I WANT BIGGER!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :-) Who doesnt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > unless you already have a HUGE one. I am thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > about going into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Oceanography or computers, havent decided yet! :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > later,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ganesh H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://vote.yahoo.com


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6462 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: bent Mickey Mouse Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ------- Snipped post -------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             There are many symptoms, different fish show none or many of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            symptoms, even among the same tank and same species.  I was basing it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on the curved spine symptom.  If you have any books with fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            diseases there are many classic pictures of this disease of fish with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            curved spines.  TB is also known as bent-spine disease.  If you did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any searches on the internet using such keywords as misshapen bent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            curved spine fish , you will come up with hundreds of links and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            almost every one of them refers to mycobacteriosis or fish TB.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            only other causes I have found is malnutrition or whirling disease,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            which is very similar to TB.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ---------- End snipped post--------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks, Dattilo. As I did my keyword search just a few minutes before I had to leave for work, I didn't have as much time as I would have liked to keep reading up. I will continue to look it up, and see what I can find out. :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------------- Snipped post------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 It doesn't spread outside the fish that are directly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            related.  In the cases of the danios, it was only the danios that were all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            related and the fry of those related fish.  That is why I think the problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is a gene that gets over-bred into the population and causes the problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            after a certain time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----------- End snipped post-------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks, Patrick. *sigh* Well, I guess that will end up taking both of my remaining platies. The two Mickey Mouse Platies are related. The juvenile is the fry of the adult ... was born a couple of weeks after I got the adult. The platies are WHITE Mickey Mouse Platies, which I've not seen before I bought these. They were so pretty, and looked so healthy in the store tank, that I thought they'd be great. Kinda sad that it appears that their white coloring might have had an indirect effect leading to their decline. I'll enjoy them while I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Should I euthanize the ailing adult? I feel so horrible for her ... she stays at the top of the tank, even struggling in the corners to get some semblance of rest instead of settling near the bottom for resting. The juvenile is doing fine, as near as I can see. It just happened so suddenly!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I still think that they are albino Mickey Mouse Platies ... I was told that albino Mickey Mouse don't exist, but from my (albeit limited) knowledge of albinism, and the appearance of these two platies, I think they are. They are so white they are almost transparent, with a pink tinge, and their eyes are bluish silver. The only color they really have is the "mickey mouse" on their tails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6463 From: Tim Walker Date: 10/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Some question about chiller... (long one, sorry)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On 15/10/2004, at 12:01 PM, rain_a13 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am from Indonesia and I have some question regarding aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > chiller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Let's say we are going to cool a 1000 litre of water, just how much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > BTU is needed? How do you calculate that? I am using the formula that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > says for every 1 pound of water it takes 1 BTU for 1 degree F
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > temperature drop (or is it like, +/- 4 BTU needed to drop 1 degree C
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for 1 kg of water in one hour?). Because here in Indonesia we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > using Celcius for our temperature measurement, so I have a bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > confusion in the number.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            try here
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.filtrinemfg.com/btum.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That will tell you the number of btu per flow per degrees.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            For example going from 40 degrees to 24 degrees at 30l/hour requires
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1870 BTU.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            45 to 24 at 60l/h takes 4910 BTU.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            9000 BTU sounds like you're covered.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Another question, how do you calculate the diameter of the copper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > piping for the evaporator? Is it 1/4", 5/16" or 3/8"? For instance, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > am using a 1pk compressor capable of 9000 BTU, then I am using 5/16"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > copper pipe, 10 m long, is it gonna work? Which is better in term of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pipe diameter?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't think it will make that much difference if your compressor has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a fixed flow rate. Decreasing the tubing size should increase the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            velocity of the water and vice versa.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sorry for the long questions, I tried to search on the net but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > couldnt found the formula in celcius, and by merely converting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > number straight from Fahrenheit to Celcius only confuse me even more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You would have to do rates or change using delta c and delta f to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            valid formula a direct conversion wont work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks a lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6464 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            so what would you recommend?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Not stress coat!!!!!!!!!! Too expensive!!!!!! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > yep you need to soak them for like a day in water conditioner like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > coat... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I need to clean my silk plants. I found on the internet that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > use bleach water to clean the plants. I tried it but I can still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > smell bleach on the plants after rinsing and soaking them in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > water. I am afried to use them in my tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6465 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Paul,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Stress Zyme and Cycle are not live bacteria but help to initiate bacteria to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            develop colonies. Essentially enzymes that help break down of waste into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bacteria food and provide the bacteria with a positive environment to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            in. From what I have heard, only Bio-spira is the true bacterial culture and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hence needs to be kept refrigerated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 24 October 2004 08:47
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >the cloudiness is probably a slight lack of bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >the bi weekly water changes are probably keeping the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >ammonia and its counter parts in check, but they also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >cut down the amount of bacteria in the tank. i would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >recommend dosing the tank weekly with live bacteria.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >it always helps. there are a few out there, i like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >stress zyme, i think pat like fritz zyme, theer is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >also bio spira which must be kept cold, and "cycle"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >which i would never recomend myself. try cutting down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >on the food also....generally once a day or twice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >(small amounts ) is ok, but 3 times is over kill. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >would also only supplement the cori's once a week,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >they will do fine with the scraps from the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >--- neshs84 <neshs84@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Hello anybody whos reading this. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I have had my aquarium for about 3 months now. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> wondering if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> am doing anything wrong, b/c my water quality is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> great, but the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> is cloudy most of the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Tank size: 25 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Tank community: 5 neon tetras, 4 almost adult
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> guppies, and about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> guppy fry that are 1 1/2 months old, 2 cory cats and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> 1 snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Temperature: 78*- 80*F (Visitherm heater)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Test date: 10-23-04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> pH: 7.0-7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> ammonia: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> nitrites: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> nitrates: ~0.0-.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Filter: Whisper 20-40 (use Diamond blend in filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> cartridge)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Water change: every 2 weeks, about 5 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> (Aquasafe conditioner)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I have a few live plants, maybe 5, the rest are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> fake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I feed my fish, guppies and tetras, Tetra Min
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> tropical crisps about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> times a day and sometimes Aqua Select Brine Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I feed my 2 cory cats Wardley Algae Discs (4 discs a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> day)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> All of my fishies fins are up and look happy. What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> can I do to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> my water be clearer? I have a 5 gallon and its water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> is crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> clear, but I just set that up yesterday. :-P Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> appriciated thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> A little about myself if you care to know. I am a 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> yr old college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> student in Crookston, MN. I was born in Calcutta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> India and adopted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> by an american family. SO here i am today! I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> always loved fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> and the water. I have wanted a tank for so long, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> I got one about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> 3 months ago, its just a 25 gallon... I WANT BIGGER!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> :-) Who doesnt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> unless you already have a HUGE one. I am thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> about going into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Oceanography or computers, havent decided yet! :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> later,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Ganesh H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6466 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Chor-out is cheaper because a small amount does as much as stress coat in removing chlorine without wasting time with treating the silk plants with aloe vera. :)  Besides, if you just squirt a little chlorout on the plant and let it set in the open for a while it will do about the same as soaking it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              so what would you recommend?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6467 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Welcome to the group Ganesh,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think your tank is looking for some stability for the moment. Reduce your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              feeding a bit and increase the water change period from 2 weeks to 3 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for the moment. You can also reduce your light but it depends on what live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plants you have. Some plants can do very well with little light so a period
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of darkness will help ward off any algae that is developing to cloud the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You are however doing very well for a starter so keep it up. Cloudy water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              not bad for fish and usually is a sign of a bacterial bloom when the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bacteria developing is not able to cope up properly with the available
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              waste. Eventually with time it will develop and the cloudiness will vanish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              once the bacteria is settled.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: neshs84 [mailto:neshs84@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 24 October 2004 06:41
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Water Quality?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Hello anybody whos reading this. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I have had my aquarium for about 3 months now. I was wondering if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >am doing anything wrong, b/c my water quality is great, but the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >is cloudy most of the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Tank size: 25 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Tank community: 5 neon tetras, 4 almost adult guppies, and about 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >guppy fry that are 1 1/2 months old, 2 cory cats and 1 snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Temperature: 78*- 80*F (Visitherm heater)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Test date: 10-23-04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >pH: 7.0-7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >ammonia: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >nitrites: ~0.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >nitrates: ~0.0-.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Filter: Whisper 20-40 (use Diamond blend in filter cartridge)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Water change: every 2 weeks, about 5 gallons (Aquasafe conditioner)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I have a few live plants, maybe 5, the rest are fake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I feed my fish, guppies and tetras, Tetra Min tropical crisps about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >times a day and sometimes Aqua Select Brine Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >I feed my 2 cory cats Wardley Algae Discs (4 discs a day)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >All of my fishies fins are up and look happy. What can I do to help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >my water be clearer? I have a 5 gallon and its water is crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >clear, but I just set that up yesterday. :-P Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >appriciated thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >A little about myself if you care to know. I am a 20 yr old college
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >student in Crookston, MN. I was born in Calcutta, India and adopted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >by an american family. SO here i am today! I have always loved fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >and the water. I have wanted a tank for so long, so I got one about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >3 months ago, its just a 25 gallon... I WANT BIGGER! :-) Who doesnt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >unless you already have a HUGE one. I am thinking about going into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Oceanography or computers, havent decided yet! :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >later,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Ganesh H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6468 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Planted aquarium lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I wanted to ask a question on compact flourescant bulbs for planted aquariums. Which would you guys recommend 6,700K or 10,000K bulbs. A guy at my LFS recommended the 10000K bulb due to algae problems with the 6700K bulb. Just wanted to get some other opinions on this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jonathan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6469 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Planted aquarium lighting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Algae problems are more complex then just light temperature but yes, a 10000K bulb will be more beneficial to the plants then a 6700k (Daylight) and less beneficial to the algae. This does not however mean that algae will not be able to use that light. It is more of a problem of excess nutrients in the tank or a specific deficient nutrient rather then light.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: Jonathan Hartsoe [mailto:jhartsoe@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 25 October 2004 15:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Planted aquarium lighting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I wanted to ask a question on compact flourescant bulbs for planted aquariums. Which would you guys recommend 6,700K or 10,000K bulbs. A guy at my LFS recommended the 10000K bulb due to algae problems with the 6700K bulb. Just wanted to get some other opinions on this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jonathan



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6470 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ok thank you for the info


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Chor-out is cheaper because a small amount does as much as stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              coat in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > removing chlorine without wasting time with treating the silk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plants with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > aloe vera. :) Besides, if you just squirt a little chlorout on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and let it set in the open for a while it will do about the same as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              soaking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > so what would you recommend?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6471 From: shortlid Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: FW Flounder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I heard Fresh water Flounders need a Sand bottom to bury in??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6472 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ive been hearing about my friends arowanda.. an di don't know if I spelled that right.. But I cant find a picture of it on the web does anyone have one or know of one.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6473 From: Andreas1Group@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Aponogeton rest period ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Aponogeton Bolivinaus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Aponogeton Longiplumulosus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have the above 2 aponogeton plants in my large  fish tank,  both bulbs have grown very well in my tank and a while ago started flowering.   Which is more than can be said for my madagascar bulb that never did anything.   Now that they have flowered for a while both of them seem to be having a lot of die back,  basically the leaves are starting to turn brown and beeing eaten by the snails and now leaves are emerging.  Does this mean that it is time for these plants to go into a resting phase for a while?  I have heard I should store them in some moist potting soild for a few months and then re-plant them.  Is this accurate?  Any other strategies out there?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Andreas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6474 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shannon, You can find several photos of this fish (spelled Arowana - close enough) on the Aquaria Central site. That's <www.aquariacentral.com>. There will be several site choices for Aquaria Central; just hit the first one, then hit "Photo Gallery", then hit "Freshwater", then hit "Miscellaneous", then scan down to "Silver Arowana". The direct web address is <www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0202&picture5_page_view=1>. This is definitely not a community tank fish but is nice as a single specimen in a large tank for someone who likes large fish. Its fast growing at gets to at least 39" or more. Each scale is overlaid with a pink pearlescence; the fish swims very gracefully and is pretty (for a large fish). It has a large appetite, though. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6475 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They are huge fish.  Too big for most aquarists.  I have even heard some say that they shouldn't even be sold because nobody can afford a tank large enough to hold them.  Sounds about right, they get a few feet long and even a 4 foot tank would be too short for them to turn around in because it would only be a couple feet wide. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ive been hearing about my friends arowanda.. an di don't know if I spelled that right.. But I cant find a picture of it on the web does anyone have one or know of one.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6476 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yea that is what I hear apparently his is 3 and half feet and in a 180 tank.. And he is making the 500 gallon tank for it now... and he expects it to get to over 5 feet.. it eats goldfish everyday I am so sad... that is a very hard part for me... shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shannon, You can find several photos of this fish (spelled Arowana - close enough) on the Aquaria Central site. That's <www.aquariacentral.com>. There will be several site choices for Aquaria Central; just hit the first one, then hit "Photo Gallery", then hit "Freshwater", then hit "Miscellaneous", then scan down to "Silver Arowana". The direct web address is <www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0202&picture5_page_view=1>. This is definitely not a community tank fish but is nice as a single specimen in a large tank for someone who likes large fish. Its fast growing at gets to at least 39" or more. Each scale is overlaid with a pink pearlescence; the fish swims very gracefully and is pretty (for a large fish). It has a large appetite, though. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6477 From: red-eye Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  forget it - they grow way to big & reach 6 foot in the wild. They are sometimes called Monk fish & will devour all your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  here is a link to some pics   http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=arowana&spell=1




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  At 12:49 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ive been hearing about my friends arowanda.. an di don't know if I spelled that right.. But I cant find a picture of it on the web does anyone have one or know of one.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6478 From: red-eye Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    forget it - they grow way to big & reach 6 foot in the wild. I did a search & here is a place where you can learn more http://www.arowanaclub.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    HTH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    At 12:49 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ive been hearing about my friends arowanda.. an di don't know if I spelled that right.. But I cant find a picture of it on the web does anyone have one or know of one.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6479 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: update on bent Mickey Mouse Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I did a search on google on "bent spine in freshwater tropical fish" and came up with a link that is talking specifically about Platies, and the problems with the breed. One of the problems is (surprise surprise) bent spine, which shows up in old age or with inadequate diet. (I had started feeding only once a day for the past month or two.) Also, temps have started dropping here, so the tank hasn't been staying at my usual 80 degrees F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The link I found the info is http://www.elmersaquarium.com/10moons.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am going to try going back to feeding small amounts twice a day, and if possible get a new heater (one with a thermostat) so I can set the heater on a setting and not worry about having to unplug it when the tank gets too warm like I have to do with the one we have now. (I don't use the one we have now very often for that very reason.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm feeling much relieved ... and hoping that feeding small amounts twice a day and trying to increase water temp helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyone know of good manufacturers of heaters with easy to read thermostat? I need one for a 15 gallon aquarium ... if I have to, I'll try and order online, but would feel more comfortable just asking at LFS for certain brands.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2 Endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6480 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are there any plants that snails will not eat besides fake plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6481 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, this guy likes his I guess nd only has it by itself in the tank and feeds it goldfish... I cant imagine it but.. to each their own i guess.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    forget it - they grow way to big & reach 6 foot in the wild. They are sometimes called Monk fish & will devour all your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    here is a link to some pics  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=arowana&spell=1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6482 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for that link.. I really liked seeing all of them... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    forget it - they grow way to big & reach 6 foot in the wild. They are sometimes called Monk fish & will devour all your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    here is a link to some pics  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=arowana&spell=1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6483 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shannon, So you know how big they get; I wasn't sure. I had one in a 210 gallon tank (a long time ago) along with two Arapaima (related) which get even bigger yet -- at least 12' long. My Arowana was around 3 1/2 feet and the two Arapaima got to almost 4'. They were all only about 10" when I got them. I was feeding them thawed out frozen fish strips, but got too expensive. Luckily, I was able to bring them to the New York Aquarium. They have very flexible bodies and have no trouble at all turning around in a 2 1/2' wide tank and they can breath air like Bettas, and by the way, are mouthbrooders. But Patrick is right; they really should not be allowed to sell them as not too many people can properly house them. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6484 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: update on bent Mickey Mouse Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    For submersible heaters, the best ones are Ebo Jager and Aquarium Systems' Vizi-Therm. For Hang-ons, Supreme is very good. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6485 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What kind of snails do you have?  There are plants that different species won't eat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are there any plants that snails will not eat besides fake plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6486 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Aquarium Heaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just wanted to get peoples opinions on brands models of aquarium heaters used. Specifically submersible heaters, I've been looking at replacing mine with marineland's visitherm series for my tanks. As one of my cheap ones that came with one of my tanks suddenly shattered recently and wasn't even plugged in, and after looking at the glass it was made of its no wonder it hadn't broken a long time ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6487 From: frbstrd@aol.com Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Aquarium Heaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ebo-jager or pro heat titanium heaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6488 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They are apple snails and a ram horn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What kind of snails do you have? There are plants that different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > won't eat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: wolf1@o... [mailto:wolf1@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Are there any plants that snails will not eat besides fake plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6489 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There are many kinds of apple snails and 2 kinds of ramshorns.  Can you email me a description or picture?  You can also visit www.applesnail.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    With pomacea bridgesii (often sold as mystery snails) and pomacea canaliculata I have good luck with amazon swords and anacharis. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They are apple snails and a ram horn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What kind of snails do you have?  There are plants that different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > won't eat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   From: wolf1@o... [mailto:wolf1@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Are there any plants that snails will not eat besides fake plants?





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6490 From: red-eye Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Aquarium Heaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can't beat an ebojager  in my opinion. I have some that have been in service running for 10 + years




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 08:03 AM 10/26/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just wanted to get peoples opinions on brands models of aquarium heaters used. Specifically submersible heaters, I've been looking at replacing mine with marineland's visitherm series for my tanks. As one of my cheap ones that came with one of my tanks suddenly shattered recently and wasn't even plugged in, and after looking at the glass it was made of its no wonder it hadn't broken a long time ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      b99bf1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6491 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: clown knife fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pie Charts

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got a clown knife fish a few days ago.  I was told by the pet store that it would be fine in a community tank.  I don't know anything about this type of fish, my daughter picked it out.   I put it in a tank that has 2 orandas and some snails.  It also had some beautiful blue guppies which are now missing.  Belatedly I did at search and found out that these knife fish are meat eaters.  Do you think they ate the guppies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         







                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6492 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: clown knife fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        absolutely....they will eat anything that will fit in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their mouth. if you like the shape and look of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, return it and get yourself a black ghost...they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are fine in the community
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Pie ChartsI got a clown knife fish a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was told by the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store that it would be fine in a community tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about this type of fish, my daughter picked it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I put it in a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that has 2 orandas and some snails. It also had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some beautiful blue guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which are now missing. Belatedly I did at search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and found out that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > knife fish are meat eaters. Do you think they ate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the guppies?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6493 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aquarium Heaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i like the titanium tube heaters, they may only make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them in the higher wattage ne though. they have an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        external temperature control box and a temp probe you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can put on the other side of the tank. retail about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        40.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Jonathan Hartsoe <jhartsoe@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I just wanted to get peoples opinions on brands
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > models of aquarium heaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > used. Specifically submersible heaters, I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > looking at replacing mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with marineland's visitherm series for my tanks. As
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one of my cheap ones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that came with one of my tanks suddenly shattered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recently and wasn't even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plugged in, and after looking at the glass it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > made of its no wonder it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hadn't broken a long time ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6494 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the arrowana belong in a cochlid only tank, and are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much like oscars in their eating habits. they only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eat what fits in ther mouths. they do very well with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        south american cichlids, but they do hit 3 feet in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        captivity. fortunately they do not gorow as quickly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as oscars. at maturity they will need a 200-240
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon tank. in the wild they do reach 6feet and eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very small deer when they come to drink.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- red-eye <r_ohle@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > forget it - they grow way to big & reach 6 foot in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the wild. They are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sometimes called Monk fish & will devour all your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > here is a link to some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=arowana&spell=1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > At 12:49 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >ive been hearing about my friends arowanda.. an di
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know if I spelled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >that right.. But I cant find a picture of it on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > web does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >one or know of one.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml>http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <http://www.sulcata-station.org>http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ><~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6495 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they do eat cichlid pellets as well, but the gold fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are called feeder fish for that exact reason.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yea that is what I hear apparently his is 3 and half
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feet and in a 180 tank..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > And he is making the 500 gallon tank for it now...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and he expects it to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to over 5 feet.. it eats goldfish everyday I am so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sad... that is a very hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > part for me... shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon, You can find several photos of this fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (spelled Arowana - close
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enough) on the Aquaria Central site. That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <www.aquariacentral.com>. There will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be several site choices for Aquaria Central; just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hit the first one, then hit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Photo Gallery", then hit "Freshwater", then hit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Miscellaneous", then scan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > down to "Silver Arowana". The direct web address is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0202&picture5_page_view=1>.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > definitely not a community tank fish but is nice as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a single specimen in a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank for someone who likes large fish. Its fast
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > growing at gets to at least 39"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or more. Each scale is overlaid with a pink
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pearlescence; the fish swims very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gracefully and is pretty (for a large fish). It has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a large appetite, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6496 From: bryants4god Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: clown knife fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.  My daughter loves that fish though. I can't believe it ate those guppies, I got them to breed darn it.  I was going to move my kissing fish and gouramis into that tank too, would they be safe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] clown knife fish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        absolutely....they will eat anything that will fit in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their mouth.  if you like the shape and look of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, return it and get yourself a black ghost...they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are fine in the community
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Pie ChartsI got a clown knife fish a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was told by the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store that it would be fine in a community tank.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about this type of fish, my daughter picked it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  I put it in a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that has 2 orandas and some snails.  It also had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some beautiful blue guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which are now missing.  Belatedly I did at search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and found out that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > knife fish are meat eaters.  Do you think they ate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the guppies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6497 From: paul helms Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: clown knife fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i owuld recommend getting the black ghost knife and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        telling her it changed colors, assuming she is young
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough to believe it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks. My daughter loves that fish though. I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > believe it ate those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, I got them to breed darn it. I was going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to move my kissing fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and gouramis into that tank too, would they be safe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clown knife fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > absolutely....they will eat anything that will fit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their mouth. if you like the shape and look of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, return it and get yourself a black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ghost...they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are fine in the community
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Pie ChartsI got a clown knife fish a few days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I was told by the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > store that it would be fine in a community tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > don't know anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > about this type of fish, my daughter picked it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I put it in a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that has 2 orandas and some snails. It also had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some beautiful blue guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > which are now missing. Belatedly I did at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and found out that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > knife fish are meat eaters. Do you think they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the guppies?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6498 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         With the new snails we got Terri that everyone said were Cana's we have found that they aint very fond of java fern. We have a few different plants in the tank with them and they seem to be the only ones they don't eat..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 10/26/04 16:57:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are many kinds of apple snails and 2 kinds of ramshorns.  Can you email me a description or picture?  You can also visit www.applesnail.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With pomacea bridgesii (often sold as mystery snails) and pomacea canaliculata I have good luck with amazon swords and anacharis. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are apple snails and a ram horn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What kind of snails do you have?  There are plants that different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > won't eat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: wolf1@o... [mailto:wolf1@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Are there any plants that snails will not eat besides fake plants?





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6499 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can anyone recommend their favorite aquarium stores in the Illinois area, in reasonable proximity to St. Louis?  A day trip of an hour to two would be cool. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm really enjoying this group.  I've learned a lot in the last couple of weeks, thanks to the very informative posts.  I think one or two posts kept me from making an error that could have been fatal to some of my "kids". 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I look forward to hearing what anyone might have to say about their fav shopping spots.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6500 From: jim Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I live in Lima,OH and although it may not do any good for you as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        St.Louis is a long way off, I find a day trip involves as much as 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hours, one way, Cleveland, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinati of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        course Dayton & Columbus OH are only 2 hours away...OH, how I miss
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the old place in Houston, TX... 7 quality fish stores in a 10 mile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        radius from the house... Lima is so sad for fish, Wal-Mart, Meijer,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and a frachise chain store, who's personnel are more concerned about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        getting a lightening bolt shaved on their head or how long it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        take them to save up for a new tattoo than knowing even the most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rudimentary information concerning fish...But, as long as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        internet, public library and mail-order remain available...I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        survive... good luck ,,, regards,,, Jim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dragon6435@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Can anyone recommend their favorite aquarium stores in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Illinois area, in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reasonable proximity to St. Louis? A day trip of an hour to two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cool.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm really enjoying this group. I've learned a lot in the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weeks, thanks to the very informative posts. I think one or two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        posts kept me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > from making an error that could have been fatal to some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my "kids".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I look forward to hearing what anyone might have to say about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their fav
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shopping spots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6501 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 10/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't live in your area but this link gives personal reviews of lfs, I've found it quite helpful: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/lfs_index.php
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can anyone recommend their favorite aquarium stores in the Illinois area, in reasonable proximity to St. Louis?  A day trip of an hour to two would be cool. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm really enjoying this group.  I've learned a lot in the last couple of weeks, thanks to the very informative posts.  I think one or two posts kept me from making an error that could have been fatal to some of my "kids". 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I look forward to hearing what anyone might have to say about their fav shopping spots.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6502 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: clown knife fish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A Clown knife has an alarming large mouth and you don’t realize that until some large fish go missing. A 6” clown knife can easily eat a 1.5” gold barb or similar fish. They are core nocturnal predators so anything less then half the size of clown knife in their tank is not safe. They also get to as big as 2ft and will need a very large tank (the least is 5ft long and 2ft wide)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 26 October 2004 17:55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] clown knife fish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.  My daughter loves that fish though. I can't believe it ate those guppies, I got them to breed darn it.  I was going to move my kissing fish and gouramis into that tank too, would they be safe?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] clown knife fish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        absolutely....they will eat anything that will fit in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their mouth.  if you like the shape and look of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, return it and get yourself a black ghost...they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are fine in the community
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- bryants4god <bryants4god@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Pie ChartsI got a clown knife fish a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was told by the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store that it would be fine in a community tank.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about this type of fish, my daughter picked it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  I put it in a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that has 2 orandas and some snails.  It also had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some beautiful blue guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which are now missing.  Belatedly I did at search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and found out that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > knife fish are meat eaters.  Do you think they ate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the guppies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6503 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You can have a look at the shell shapes on http://www.applesnail.net/content/species_genera.htm and get an idea of the species you have. It works very well for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 26 October 2004 23:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         With the new snails we got Terri that everyone said were Cana 's we have found that they aint very fond of java fern. We have a few different plants in the tank with them and they seem to be the only ones they don't eat..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: bryants4god

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 10/26/04 16:57:16

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are many kinds of apple snails and 2 kinds of ramshorns.  Can you email me a description or picture?  You can also visit www.applesnail.net

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With pomacea bridgesii (often sold as mystery snails) and pomacea canaliculata I have good luck with amazon swords and anacharis. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are apple snails and a ram horn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com , "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What kind of snails do you have?  There are plants that different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > won't eat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: wolf1@o... [mailto:wolf1@o...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Are there any plants that snails will not eat besides fake plants?





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6504 From: shortlid Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The ph. in my 30 gal. community dipped to 6.5 so I added three table
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sppons like the guy at the LFS stated and the ph jumped to off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chart! Now I am adding Jungle ??'s ph down at 1/2 teaspoon per ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gal. to get to 7.0. How much do you think I should add?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6505 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why don't you just leave it?  6.5 isn't really that low.  Unless you are keeping African cichlids or saltwater fish, I think you really need to quit risking your fish.  If you are keeping those fish, I suggest selling them for fish that do better in your water, which is almost anything else.  Adding 3 tbs of baking soda will raise KH to how knows how high.  A shock like that could easily kill your fish.  What you need to do is take 3 tbs of baking soda and stuff it up that fish guy's nose and see if it raises his pH!  I know a lot of "experts" change their pH and hardness, but I have tried it and found that is too much work to do every time you change water, and it is way to easy to mess up big time with even a pinch of baking soda.  One pinch will raise 1 gallon several degrees of KH and go from 6.5 to 7.5 on the pH scale in my water.  If you just have to have "perfect" pH of 7 (which I doubt exists anywhere in nature, at least not very much in nature) get an RO unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The ph. in my 30 gal. community dipped to 6.5 so I added three table
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sppons like the guy at the LFS stated and the ph jumped to off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chart!  Now I am adding Jungle ??'s ph down at 1/2 teaspoon per ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gal. to get to 7.0.  How much do you think I should add?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6506 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 Table spoons???? In 30 gallons is enough to raise the PH from 5 to 8.4 I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          suppose. The PH, Carbonates and Bicarbonates is a very complex system to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          work with and not the best of solutions. A PH of 6.5 is fine for all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tropical fish except African rift lake cichlids as Patrick already mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so unless you are keeping those, do-not fiddle around with the PH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you are keeping rift lake cichlids then the best thing to do is to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the sodium bicarbonate to replacement water during water changes and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          too very slowly but I gather you don't so no point venturing into it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As Patrick also mentioned, playing with PH is more dangerous then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          acclimatizing your fish to the PH you already have. Mostly the problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people face is the other way round to yours. i.e. they have a water of PH 8+
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and want to get it down to more reasonable stature which is a difficult
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thing to do without the use of chemicals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sit back and relax. Most community fish will do well in a broad PH range of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          6-8. Only acidic water sensitive fish like Discus, Rams etc. don't do well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          at PH above 7.5 and Rift lake cichlids don't do well at PH lower then 7.5.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Even then, you cannot in any way mimic the water they have come from so why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not put in the effort to acclimatize them to the water you already have.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 27 October 2004 14:56
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >The ph. in my 30 gal. community dipped to 6.5 so I added three table
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >sppons like the guy at the LFS stated and the ph jumped to off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >chart! Now I am adding Jungle ??'s ph down at 1/2 teaspoon per ten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >gal. to get to 7.0. How much do you think I should add?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6507 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: arowanda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually between 2.5ft to 3.5ft and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that too I believe in the wild. These are my dream fish but I do not have the space or the ability to care for them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get the opportunity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180 gal tank will be too small for this lovely giant but I would not expect it to grow any bigger unless it is an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest known freshwater fish alive).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They can be finicky on feeding but it does not mean that they have to be fed feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would try to train it to accept non live food like prawns, prepared food, floating carnivore pellets etc. This reduces the chance of contracting disease from feeder fish and also floating food creates a more natural environment for them and prevents a common disorder in arowana called “drooping eye”.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: 26 October 2004 01:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] arowanda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yea that is what I hear apparently his is 3 and half feet and in a 180 tank.. And he is making the 500 gallon tank for it now... and he expects it to get to over 5 feet.. it eats goldfish everyday I am so sad... that is a very hard part for me... shannon:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon, You can find several photos of this fish (spelled Arowana - close enough) on the Aquaria Central site. That's <www.aquariacentral.com>. There will be several site choices for Aquaria Central; just hit the first one, then hit "Photo Gallery", then hit "Freshwater", then hit "Miscellaneous", then scan down to "Silver Arowana". The direct web address is <www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0202&picture5_page_view=1>. This is definitely not a community tank fish but is nice as a single specimen in a large tank for someone who likes large fish. Its fast growing at gets to at least 39" or more. Each scale is overlaid with a pink pearlescence; the fish swims very gracefully and is pretty (for a large fish). It has a large appetite, though. Ray



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6508 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: FW Flounder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yep they do. Plain smooth play sand or river sand that is not shark or could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hurt them. That is their natural camouflage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 25 October 2004 20:42
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FW Flounder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >I heard Fresh water Flounders need a Sand bottom to bury in??
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6509 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: help with cleaning silk plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Depends what you want to clean. If you want to just get rid of algae then you could use hydrogen peroxide. Dip the plants in a 3-7% hydrogen peroxide solution and all the algae will die. But like bleach, this may discolor the plants as well but after the treatment you need to only rinse it with running water. traces of hydrogen peroxide if left on the plant will not harm the fish or the bacteria.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 23 October 2004 18:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] help with cleaning silk plants

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not stress coat!!!!!!!!!!  Too expensive!!!!!! :) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yep you need to soak them for like a day in water conditioner like stress coat... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I need to clean my silk plants. I found on the internet that you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            use bleach water to clean the plants. I tried it but I can still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            smell bleach on the plants after rinsing and soaking them in fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water. I am afried to use them in my tank. Any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6510 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Could it be that the platy has always been like this and you just noticed it? Livebearers are very susceptible to birth disorders so this very much could be the case.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Erin VanKouwenberg [mailto:celticmama78@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 23 October 2004 15:13
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: Freshwater Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Mickey Mouse Platy BENT??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hubby is changing the water in the aquarium, and he just called me in to look at my adult Mickey Mouse Platy. He noticed it first, because it's more noticable when looking straight down from above the water instead of looking through the glass ... my adult Mickey Mouse platy's back appears to have been injured somehow. Her body no longer goes in a straight line nose to tailfin... it is now curved. So she is almost S-shaped when looking down on her. It's not that she is swimming and maneuvering corners ... she is STUCK in this curved position. Maybe she broke her back or something??? She's been spending a lot of time since yesterday at the top of the water, and at first I thought it was because hubby (trying to be helpful) put in twice recommended dose of Had A Snail yesterday morning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not sure how this could have happened. I just did a water test day before yesterday, using liquid test kit, so I doubt the water has anything to do with it. Here are my test results from day before yesterday just in case :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ammonia : 0 ppm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            pH : between 7.4 - 7.8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            NitrIte : 0 ppm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            NitrAte : 10 ppm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There have been NO new additions to the tank (decorations, fish, nor plants) nor has anything been rearranged, so I can't think of what she could have done to injure herself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            She's staying at the surface of the water, in the corners, and just in general looks horrible. I'm wondering what (if anything) I can do to help her.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Any advice is much appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Mickey Mouse Platies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 "Fancy Mollie"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Black Balloon Molly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6511 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If these are new fish then wait and see if it increases further before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            trying any treatment. It could be just a change in circumstances that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            stressed them and should be fine. What tetras are they?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: mommy2acdhsurvivor [mailto:CK147@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 22 October 2004 22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Today I noticed a white spot just one on the tail of my tetra. Do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >get ich? Since the bottle of ich killer stuff says not to use on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >tetras, I just got them from the pet store about 4 days ago. How can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >treat it if it is ick. The tetras are silverish clear with white and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >black top and bottom fins and with a red tail. thanks for any info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6512 From: The Dude Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Pregnant Fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've had tanks for awhile and consider myself slightly above average
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on care knowledge, but I don't know squat about breeding. I've got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            some Tiger Barbs and one of them seems to be swelling in the belly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Could this be a pregnant fish? If yes, should I move the fish to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            seperate tank even though I've got tons of cover?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6513 From: straubtyler Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Pregnant Fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have never breed barbs before but i do know they are egglayers and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            moving the female fish to her own tank will not result in any babys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            her eggs are not fertle. you would have to put her and a male in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank togrther wait for them to spawn then remove both fish. im sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            someone els could help you more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "The Dude"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <ironheadude@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I've had tanks for awhile and consider myself slightly above
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            average
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > on care knowledge, but I don't know squat about breeding. I've got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > some Tiger Barbs and one of them seems to be swelling in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            belly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Could this be a pregnant fish? If yes, should I move the fish to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > seperate tank even though I've got tons of cover?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6514 From: Aranel Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How would you net a fish that size? And do tank maintenance? It seems like you'd almost need to wade into the tank to do it...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll just stick with my mollies and gourami. Hehe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually between 2.5ft to 3.5ft and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that too I believe in the wild. These are my dream fish but I do not have the space or the ability to care for them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get the opportunity.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6515 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Shortlid, Patrick has the right idea; you should have left the pH where it was as 6.5 is not bad at all. But from what you're saying, it kind of too late now, since you've already added 3 tbls of baking soda. I'm surprised your fish are alive! Next time if you're going to do something like that without actually knowing how to do it yourself, do not rely on the lfs guy -- ask us. About 1/4 tsp. for each 10 gallons would have raised your pH to approximately 7.2 and that's too much to do at one time; you needed to do it gradually -- 1/8 tsp. per 10 gallons each day for 2 days. Bringing the pH down too much all at once now will only shock the fish more. With that much baking soda in the water, you will never get the pH back down with any amount of pH dropper as you will be fighting all that buffering capacity. Best way is to start changing water (GRADUALLY) each day. In fact, that would have been they best way to slightly raise the pH in the beginning, as I'm willing to bet, unless I'm wrong, that your tap water is slightly alkaline. If your tap water is by some chance acid, you should not have tried to alter your pH at all, but just be happy with what you've got. Over time, your pH will have a tendency to drop naturally as that is a slow end result of the ammonia cycle. More frequent water changes would have kept the pH from dropping in the first place. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6516 From: shortlid Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Like you said it is to late now and my fish are still kicking for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            now!! I am just going to do water changes every day till I get it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            close to 7.0 as I can. sound like a sound idea.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Shortlid, Patrick has the right idea; you should have left the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > was as 6.5 is not bad at all. But from what you're saying, it kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of too late
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > now, since you've already added 3 tbls of baking soda. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            surprised your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > are alive! Next time if you're going to do something like that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > actually knowing how to do it yourself, do not rely on the lfs guy -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - ask us. About
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 1/4 tsp. for each 10 gallons would have raised your pH to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            approximately 7.2 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that's too much to do at one time; you needed to do it gradually --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1/8 tsp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > per 10 gallons each day for 2 days. Bringing the pH down too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            all at once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > now will only shock the fish more. With that much baking soda in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you will never get the pH back down with any amount of pH dropper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            as you will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fighting all that buffering capacity. Best way is to start changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (GRADUALLY) each day. In fact, that would have been they best way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > raise the pH in the beginning, as I'm willing to bet, unless I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wrong, that your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tap water is slightly alkaline. If your tap water is by some chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            acid, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > should not have tried to alter your pH at all, but just be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you've got. Over time, your pH will have a tendency to drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            naturally as that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a slow end result of the ammonia cycle. More frequent water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have kept the pH from dropping in the first place. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6517 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Digest Number 471
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Could it be that the platy has always been like this and you just noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it? Livebearers are very susceptible to birth disorders so this very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            could be the case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------- end original message ------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I had seen her from above while doing water changes or putting in tubifex cubes or zucchini slices, and hadn't noticed a bent appearance before. So I don't *think* that she was always bent. Although it is possible that I just now noticed it!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've gone back to feeding twice a day and bumped up the house's thermostat at night (instead of turning it down to 65 at night like I was doing) to try and slightly raise the water temperature, so hopefully that will help. She doesn't seem to be as bent now, but it could just be wishful thinking. She's at least not struggling in the corners anymore. Although for some reason my fish are all of a sudden ignoring zucchini and tubifex cubes when before they would devour them happily ... I guess they got bored with it! That's kind of irritating because I've still got most of a jar of tubifex cubes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6518 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 11/6/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Saturday November 6, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The next reminder for this event will be sent in 7 days, 1 hour, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6519 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the responses.  That's a very interesting link.  I found one shop I wasn't aware of but it specializes in cichlids, which I don't keep.  Still, could be fun. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Linda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 10/27/04 12:35:03 AM Central Daylight Time, dtmergl@... writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't live in your area but this link gives personal reviews of lfs, I've found it quite helpful: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/lfs_index.php



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: dragon6435@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] LFS recommendations in Southern/Mid Illinois


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can anyone recommend their favorite aquarium stores in the Illinois area, in reasonable proximity to St. Louis?  A day trip of an hour to two would be cool. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm really enjoying this group.  I've learned a lot in the last couple of weeks, thanks to the very informative posts.  I think one or two posts kept me from making an error that could have been fatal to some of my "kids". 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I look forward to hearing what anyone might have to say about their fav shopping spots.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6520 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the responce I've been watching and there is 2 fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a few spots. I have 2 glo lite tetras, & 5 that are clearish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            silver with a red tail and there top and bottom fin are white black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and then yellow.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If these are new fish then wait and see if it increases further before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > trying any treatment. It could be just a change in circumstances that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stressed them and should be fine. What tetras are they?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >From: mommy2acdhsurvivor [mailto:CK147@H...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Sent: 22 October 2004 22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Today I noticed a white spot just one on the tail of my tetra. Do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >get ich? Since the bottle of ich killer stuff says not to use on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >tetras, I just got them from the pet store about 4 days ago. How can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >treat it if it is ick. The tetras are silverish clear with white and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >black top and bottom fins and with a red tail. thanks for any info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6521 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I haven't personally met him maybe i will and if i do ill let you know.. but he has it in the 180 tank now and he is building a 550 i don't know if he feeds it other things just know that he does the feeder fish.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually between 2.5ft to 3.5ft and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that too I believe in the wild. These are my dream fish but I do not have the space or the ability to care for them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get the opportunity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180 gal tank will be too small for this lovely giant but I would not expect it to grow any bigger unless it is an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest known freshwater fish alive).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They can be finicky on feeding but it does not mean that they have to be fed feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would try to train it to accept non live food like prawns, prepared food, floating carnivore pellets etc. This reduces the chance of contracting disease from feeder fish and also floating food creates a more natural environment for them and prevents a common disorder in arowana called “drooping eye”.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6522 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, even with my 4 inch tetras I practically wade in my tank lol.. As I come out so wet afterwards. and I have seen some huge nets but where to put it the bath tub lol... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How would you net a fish that size? And do tank maintenance? It seems like you'd almost need to wade into the tank to do it...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll just stick with my mollies and gourami. Hehe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6523 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do small water changes to prevent any PH Shock. Healthy fish can very well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            survive PH shocks but again they may not. I have had a PH crash from 8.4 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            less then 5 over night without a single casualty or a disease breakout so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            health of the fish plays a major role in this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You do not have to aim for a PH of 7.0. Just continue with water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            until your PH is back to 6.5 (Same as your tap water) and let it be there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What fish do you have in there?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 27 October 2004 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Like you said it is to late now and my fish are still kicking for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >now!! I am just going to do water changes every day till I get it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >close to 7.0 as I can. sound like a sound idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Shortlid, Patrick has the right idea; you should have left the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> was as 6.5 is not bad at all. But from what you're saying, it kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >of too late
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> now, since you've already added 3 tbls of baking soda. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >surprised your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> are alive! Next time if you're going to do something like that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> actually knowing how to do it yourself, do not rely on the lfs guy -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >- ask us. About
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> 1/4 tsp. for each 10 gallons would have raised your pH to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >approximately 7.2 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> that's too much to do at one time; you needed to do it gradually --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >1/8 tsp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> per 10 gallons each day for 2 days. Bringing the pH down too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >all at once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> now will only shock the fish more. With that much baking soda in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> you will never get the pH back down with any amount of pH dropper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >as you will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> fighting all that buffering capacity. Best way is to start changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> (GRADUALLY) each day. In fact, that would have been they best way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >to slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> raise the pH in the beginning, as I'm willing to bet, unless I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >wrong, that your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> tap water is slightly alkaline. If your tap water is by some chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >acid, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> should not have tried to alter your pH at all, but just be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >with what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> you've got. Over time, your pH will have a tendency to drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >naturally as that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> a slow end result of the ammonia cycle. More frequent water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> have kept the pH from dropping in the first place. Best of luck, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6524 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sounds more like Phantom tetra. Does it also have a black spot in the middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to head part of the body?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Glowlights are hardy fish and so are phantoms. Wait and see if ICH starts to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            improve in time. It is well known that ICH cannot really kill a fish. It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the reasons that cause ICH or the treatments we try to cure it that kills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the fish. SO wait normally and see how it goes. Medication is not the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            solution. As Shannon recommended, see some previous threads about the method
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to treat ICH naturally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >From: mommy2acdhsurvivor [mailto:CK147@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Sent: 28 October 2004 04:27
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Thanks for the responce I've been watching and there is 2 fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >have a few spots. I have 2 glo lite tetras, & 5 that are clearish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >silver with a red tail and there top and bottom fin are white black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >and then yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> If these are new fish then wait and see if it increases further before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> trying any treatment. It could be just a change in circumstances that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> stressed them and should be fine. What tetras are they?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >From: mommy2acdhsurvivor [mailto:CK147@H...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >Sent: 22 October 2004 22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >Today I noticed a white spot just one on the tail of my tetra. Do they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >get ich? Since the bottle of ich killer stuff says not to use on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >tetras, I just got them from the pet store about 4 days ago. How can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >treat it if it is ick. The tetras are silverish clear with white and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >black top and bottom fins and with a red tail. thanks for any info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6525 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: arowanda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cleaning the tank with Arowana should not be a problem as long as the top is covered and there is no place for the arowana to jump out. I have yet to hear of any arowana that has not tried jumping out of the tank and they are superb jumpers even when at 40”.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You don’t really need to catch such a large fish unless you are trying to transport it in which case one has to use a towel rather then  a net. You don’t want to damage its feelers or fins or scales as these contribute to its beauty. Reduce the water as much as possible so as to not to dry out the fish completely and place a towel on the bottom and get the arowana to come over the towel and lift him with that. It is a very common method used to catch large Koi as well as once you have them in the net, use of towel or similar things make carrying the fish much less strenuous. The size of tank you need for an arowana is not something you can think about emptying very frequently (I mean frequency in years) so a very proper setup is most essential before getting the fish in. You can however change the internal décor without problem unless there are piranhas in the tank J

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Aranel [mailto:aranel@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 27 October 2004 20:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] arowanda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How would you net a fish that size? And do tank maintenance? It seems like you'd almost need to wade into the tank to do it...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll just stick with my mollies and gourami. Hehe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually between 2.5ft to 3.5ft and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that too I believe in the wild. These are my dream fish but I do not have the space or the ability to care for them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get the opportunity.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6526 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Could any of you tell me if I have got the formula for working out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the number of imperial gallons a tank will hold correct. LxDxH in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            inch,s divded by 277.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cheers Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6527 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Here are a couple of good links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Date: 10/28/04 12:13:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Could any of you tell me if I have got the formula for working out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the number of imperial gallons a tank will hold correct. LxDxH in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              inch,s divded by 277.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Cheers Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6528 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think for Imperial gallons it is 291 (As per my calculations) and 246 for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              US gallons where LDH are in inches and tank is a pure rectangle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: scimitarss12003 [mailto:scimitarss12003@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 28 October 2004 12:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Could any of you tell me if I have got the formula for working out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >the number of imperial gallons a tank will hold correct. LxDxH in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >inch,s divded by 277.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Cheers Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6529 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Nim, Just to refresh your memory, 231 Cubic Inches = 1 U.S. Gallon. Not a number any of us uses all too often. Hope this helps. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6530 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Formula

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for that Ray J I dint have the numbers at the top of my head but did some calculations to get them. Strangely, I will mention the calculations below and see the discrepancy with them and I do remember the number you have given me to be correct.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              231 Cubic inches = 231*2.5*2.5*2.5 Cubic centimeters? Correct? = 3609.37 Milliliters = 3.6 Liters. 1 US Gallon = 3.78 Liters I suppose

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              246 Cubic inches = 246*2.5*2.5*2.5 Cubic centimeters? = 3843.75 Milliliters = 3.843 Liters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              231 Cubic inches = 231*2.54*2.54*2.54 Cubic centimeters? = 3785.4 Milliliters = 3.78 Liters Perfect

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It was the bloody 2.54cm = 1 Inch and 2.5cm = 1 Inch confusion ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not to boggle anyones mind but I mentioned these just for reference that even 0.04 cm makes so much difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: 28 October 2004 14:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Formula

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Nim, Just to refresh your memory, 231 Cubic Inches = 1 U.S. Gallon. Not a number any of us uses all too often. Hope this helps. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6531 From: Ben OLDS Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: yellow labs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a number of yellow lab males to give to anyone in the western
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Michigan area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6532 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              us gallons is lxwlxh / 231.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- scimitarss12003 <scimitarss12003@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Could any of you tell me if I have got the formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for working out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the number of imperial gallons a tank will hold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > correct. LxDxH in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > inch,s divded by 277.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Cheers Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6533 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              when nettinga 3 foot arowana, i generally use two of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              teh large aquarium nets. catch the tail with one end
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and the head with the other. when you push them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              together the fish will curl a nit and be easy to move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with minimal splashing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Cleaning the tank with Arowana should not be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > problem as long as the top is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > covered and there is no place for the arowana to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > jump out. I have yet to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hear of any arowana that has not tried jumping out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of the tank and they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > superb jumpers even when at 40�.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > You don�t really need to catch such a large fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > unless you are trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > transport it in which case one has to use a towel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > rather then a net. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > don�t want to damage its feelers or fins or scales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as these contribute to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > its beauty. Reduce the water as much as possible so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as to not to dry out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish completely and place a towel on the bottom and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get the arowana to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > over the towel and lift him with that. It is a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > common method used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > catch large Koi as well as once you have them in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > net, use of towel or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > similar things make carrying the fish much less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > strenuous. The size of tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you need for an arowana is not something you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > think about emptying very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > frequently (I mean frequency in years) so a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > proper setup is most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > essential before getting the fish in. You can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > however change the internal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > d�cor without problem unless there are piranhas in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the tank :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: Aranel [mailto:aranel@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sent: 27 October 2004 20:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > How would you net a fish that size? And do tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > maintenance? It seems like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > you'd almost need to wade into the tank to do it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I'll just stick with my mollies and gourami. Hehe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nimish Mathur wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > between 2.5ft to 3.5ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > too I believe in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > These are my dream fish but I do not have the space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or the ability to care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get the opportunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6534 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              arowana do reach 6 feet in the wild, and if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              given a an 8 foot 500 gallon tank, and fed a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              protein, they could hit 5 ft., but massive amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              proteim are not good. make sure he does not use beef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              heart. the hormones in it make the fish grow fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but shorten the life, as will over feeding gold fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              try using large cichlid pellets and feeders as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              treat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I haven't personally met him maybe i will and if i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > do ill let you know.. but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > he has it in the 180 tank now and he is building a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 550 i don't know if he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > feeds it other things just know that he does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > feeder fish.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > between 2.5ft to 3.5ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > too I believe in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > These are my dream fish but I do not have the space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or the ability to care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the opportunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank will be too small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for this lovely giant but I would not expect it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > grow any bigger unless it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > known freshwater fish alive).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > They can be finicky on feeding but it does not mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that they have to be fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > try to train it to accept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > non live food like prawns, prepared food, floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > carnivore pellets etc. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > reduces the chance of contracting disease from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > feeder fish and also floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > food creates a more natural environment for them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > prevents a common disorder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > in arowana called ���drooping eye���.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6535 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I checked the fishbae.org and none of the arowanas there are longer then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              120cm and except for 1, all are under or 100cm. I have never heard of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              6foot arowana myself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Sent: 28 October 2004 16:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >arowana do reach 6 feet in the wild, and if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >given a an 8 foot 500 gallon tank, and fed a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >protein, they could hit 5 ft., but massive amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >proteim are not good. make sure he does not use beef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >heart. the hormones in it make the fish grow fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >but shorten the life, as will over feeding gold fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >try using large cichlid pellets and feeders as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >treat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >--- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> I haven't personally met him maybe i will and if i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> do ill let you know.. but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> he has it in the 180 tank now and he is building a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> 550 i don't know if he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> feeds it other things just know that he does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> feeder fish.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> between 2.5ft to 3.5ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> too I believe in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> These are my dream fish but I do not have the space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> or the ability to care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> the opportunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180 gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> tank will be too small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> for this lovely giant but I would not expect it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> grow any bigger unless it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> known freshwater fish alive).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> They can be finicky on feeding but it does not mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> that they have to be fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> try to train it to accept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> non live food like prawns, prepared food, floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> carnivore pellets etc. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> reduces the chance of contracting disease from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> feeder fish and also floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> food creates a more natural environment for them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> prevents a common disorder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> in arowana called b
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6536 From: helen572 Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: What do blue lobsters eat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We have a small blue lobster in our 20-gal. tank (with four cichlids).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The pet store owner told us that he can eat anything. I'm concerned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that he may not be getting enough food since the cichlids eat off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bottom too. When we put flakes or tubifex worms (freeze-dried) in for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the fish, he tries to climb up the side of the tank or a fake plant to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get at the fish food, but can't get to the surface. Usually, all he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gets is some flakes that have fallen. So I started giving him a piece
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of cooked brussell sprout everyday, which he likes. Then I tried a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              piece of cooked hamburger, which he likes. Hubby says meat isn't good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for him. So, can I feed our guy meat or not? If so, cooked or raw?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              P. S. An employee at an aquarium store told us we have to be careful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about the hamburger because if the cichlids eat it, it can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hole-in-the-head disease -- true?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6537 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You're better off feeding your lobster strips of fresh or (thawed out) frozen fish from your super market and/or perhaps a bit of cooked (not fried) chicken once in a while. Hamburger will not cause hole-in-the-head disease in Cichlids, but will shorten their lifespan. As the fats are not digestable, it messes up their livers. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6538 From: shortlid Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a established 30 gal. with two Rainbows, three Danios, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cherry barbs, three scissior tails, three Black Tetras, one Black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Molly, one small Pleco, one 3" Dojo Loach, one 2" Cory, and a Ghost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shrimp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Do small water changes to prevent any PH Shock. Healthy fish can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              very well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > survive PH shocks but again they may not. I have had a PH crash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              from 8.4 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > less then 5 over night without a single casualty or a disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              breakout so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > health of the fish plays a major role in this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > You do not have to aim for a PH of 7.0. Just continue with water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > until your PH is back to 6.5 (Same as your tap water) and let it be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > What fish do you have in there?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@j...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >Sent: 27 October 2004 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Baking Soda to raise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >Like you said it is to late now and my fish are still kicking for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >now!! I am just going to do water changes every day till I get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >close to 7.0 as I can. sound like a sound idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> Shortlid, Patrick has the right idea; you should have left the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> was as 6.5 is not bad at all. But from what you're saying, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >of too late
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> now, since you've already added 3 tbls of baking soda. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >surprised your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> are alive! Next time if you're going to do something like that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> actually knowing how to do it yourself, do not rely on the lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              guy -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >- ask us. About
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> 1/4 tsp. for each 10 gallons would have raised your pH to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >approximately 7.2 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> that's too much to do at one time; you needed to do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gradually --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >1/8 tsp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> per 10 gallons each day for 2 days. Bringing the pH down too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >all at once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> now will only shock the fish more. With that much baking soda in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> you will never get the pH back down with any amount of pH dropper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >as you will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> fighting all that buffering capacity. Best way is to start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> (GRADUALLY) each day. In fact, that would have been they best way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >to slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> raise the pH in the beginning, as I'm willing to bet, unless I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >wrong, that your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> tap water is slightly alkaline. If your tap water is by some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >acid, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> should not have tried to alter your pH at all, but just be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >with what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> you've got. Over time, your pH will have a tendency to drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >naturally as that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> a slow end result of the ammonia cycle. More frequent water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> have kept the pH from dropping in the first place. Best of luck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ray
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6539 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Treating injured Pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I wanted to find out what the best treatment for a badly nipped rhino pleco would be. Mainly just has a lot fin damage from my african cichlids. Luckily when I went home at lunch he happened to be on the glass and I was able to catch him and transfer him to my community tank. I will move him to a hospital tank to treat him but was wondering what worked best with pleco's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On a side note any suggestions besides an algae scraper what to do about the algae on the cichlid tank as they won't leave any algae eaters alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6540 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Digest Number 472 - AQUARIUM CAPACITY
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 10/28/04 1:08:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think for Imperial gallons it is 291 (As per my calculations) and 246 for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              US gallons where LDH are in inches and tank is a pure rectangle.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And I think for U.S. gallons, it is L x W x H in inches divided by 231.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There, I said it and I'm glad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6541 From: helen572 Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks Ray - no more burger. Fish and veggies only from now on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Shirley Helen

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > You're better off feeding your lobster strips of fresh or (thawed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              out) frozen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish from your super market and/or perhaps a bit of cooked (not fried)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > chicken once in a while. Hamburger will not cause hole-in-the-head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              disease in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Cichlids, but will shorten their lifespan. As the fats are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              digestable, it messes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > up their livers. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6542 From: red-eye Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              many moons ago I worked in a high quality tropical fish store. The owner waa grump when it came to salesman. One day a sales guy gave him a tiny arowana & told the boss he did not know what it was... LOL... it grew like no tomorrow and outsized one tank after anoter tank. We feed goldfish feeders & quarter size frozen shrimp(thawed).




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              At 12:35 AM 10/28/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I haven't personally met him maybe i will and if i do ill let you know.. but he has it in the 180 tank now and he is building a 550 i don't know if he feeds it other things just know that he does the feeder fish.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are usually between 2.5ft to 3.5ft and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that too I believe in the wild. These are my dream fish but I do not have the space or the ability to care for them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I get the opportunity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180 gal tank will be too small for this lovely giant but I would not expect it to grow any bigger unless it is an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest known freshwater fish alive).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They can be finicky on feeding but it does not mean that they have to be fed feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would try to train it to accept non live food like prawns, prepared food, floating carnivore pellets etc. This reduces the chance of contracting disease from feeder fish and also floating food creates a more natural environment for them and prevents a common disorder in arowana called “drooping eye”.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6543 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a 10-gallons tank. I have two 5" goldfish, one 2.5" pleco, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a small snail in this tank.I have been having to a problem with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              water turning cloudy. I am having to clean the tank every couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              days. I don't overfeed them. I normally clean the tank once a week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Our LFS said they will not take these goldfish in. I don't have room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for bigger fish tank. Any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6544 From: videomandlw2003 Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: pond building video
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a new video on how to install your own pond. It's called "A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Garden Pond You Can Build". If anyone is intererested in purchasing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it please contact me offlist for more info at videomandw@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Davd Welch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6545 From: Larry Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Aquarium Straita
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have changed my gravel for Tahitian Moon sand, How do I vaccum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              without sucking sand up also?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6546 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Best advise that can be given: 55 gallon tank minimum. Goldfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              plecos are very large and messy fish that need a lot of room. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              messyness probably the cause of a bacterial bloom causing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cloudiness. Bigger tank or new home for the fish, those are your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              options. :( A suggestion for a fish guy that says they won't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the fish, leave the fish on their counter. You won't get money for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them, but I guarentee they will sell them quickly. Probably to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              somebody with a 5 gallon tank...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 10-gallons tank. I have two 5" goldfish, one 2.5" pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a small snail in this tank.I have been having to a problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water turning cloudy. I am having to clean the tank every couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > days. I don't overfeed them. I normally clean the tank once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Our LFS said they will not take these goldfish in. I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for bigger fish tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6547 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: ICH AND TETRA'S
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yup that's them, they have a little black spot a little bit from there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              eyes. I like there name. I had lemon tetras at first with the phantoms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (they where in the same tank at the pet store) but for like 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the phantoms stayed in one corner all together and one would swim out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and be chased by the lemons who where making them hit the walls and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the rocks. Mean buggers so I took them back and traded for the glo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              light tetras. I'll keep watching it seems like there is less it's a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              littler harder to find on them (2 of them)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sounds more like Phantom tetra. Does it also have a black spot in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to head part of the body?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Glowlights are hardy fish and so are phantoms. Wait and see if ICH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              starts to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > improve in time. It is well known that ICH cannot really kill a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish. It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the reasons that cause ICH or the treatments we try to cure it that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              kills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fish. SO wait normally and see how it goes. Medication is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > solution. As Shannon recommended, see some previous threads about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the method
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to treat ICH naturally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6548 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              i have to take issue with you there patrick. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              says they do not want your fish. fish have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to take up a whole tank with someone elses problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish. if they are to big for your tank, call and ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the store if they are willing to take them first. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              home for the pets that you were not prepared to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              care for the long term.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A second point is that the cloudiness is not do to an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              faster rate to keepo up with the pollution caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the fish. in this case it is most likely from over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              staying clean, upgrade the filtration. everytime you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              clean out the tank you are restarting the tank. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you are cleaning everything but the filter, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              check, and it will always be cloudy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Best advise that can be given: 55 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > minimum. Goldfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > plecos are very large and messy fish that need a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of room. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > messyness probably the cause of a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > causing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cloudiness. Bigger tank or new home for the fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > those are your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > options. :( A suggestion for a fish guy that says
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > they won't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fish, leave the fish on their counter. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > won't get money for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > them, but I guarentee they will sell them quickly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Probably to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > somebody with a 5 gallon tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > I have a 10-gallons tank. I have two 5" goldfish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > one 2.5" pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > a small snail in this tank.I have been having to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > water turning cloudy. I am having to clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank every couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > days. I don't overfeed them. I normally clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Our LFS said they will not take these goldfish in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > for bigger fish tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6549 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the hormones in the beef will shorten the lives of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish, as will the fats. you can always get frozen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              krill att the lfs and feed it with a feefing prong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              directly to the lobster. anything you buy for human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              consumption run the risk of bacteria as it is meant to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              be cooked, so stick with foods intended for fish, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are usually individually quick frozen so teher is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              chance of bacterial contamination.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- helen572 <shirley345@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > We have a small blue lobster in our 20-gal. tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (with four cichlids).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > The pet store owner told us that he can eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > anything. I'm concerned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > that he may not be getting enough food since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cichlids eat off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > bottom too. When we put flakes or tubifex worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > (freeze-dried) in for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fish, he tries to climb up the side of the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > or a fake plant to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get at the fish food, but can't get to the surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Usually, all he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gets is some flakes that have fallen. So I started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > giving him a piece
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of cooked brussell sprout everyday, which he likes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Then I tried a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > piece of cooked hamburger, which he likes. Hubby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > says meat isn't good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for him. So, can I feed our guy meat or not? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > so, cooked or raw?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > P. S. An employee at an aquarium store told us we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have to be careful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > about the hamburger because if the cichlids eat it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > it can cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hole-in-the-head disease -- true?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              _______________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://messenger.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6550 From: paul helms Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that is in the wild, and i have only seen pics once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              from fisherman of a 6 footer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I checked the fishbae.org and none of the arowanas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > there are longer then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 120cm and except for 1, all are under or 100cm. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have never heard of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > 6foot arowana myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >Sent: 28 October 2004 16:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >arowana do reach 6 feet in the wild, and if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >given a an 8 foot 500 gallon tank, and fed a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >protein, they could hit 5 ft., but massive amounts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >proteim are not good. make sure he does not use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > beef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >heart. the hormones in it make the fish grow fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >but shorten the life, as will over feeding gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >try using large cichlid pellets and feeders as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >treat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >--- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> I haven't personally met him maybe i will and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> do ill let you know.. but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> he has it in the 180 tank now and he is building
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> 550 i don't know if he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> feeds it other things just know that he does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> feeder fish.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> between 2.5ft to 3.5ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> too I believe in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> These are my dream fish but I do not have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> or the ability to care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> the opportunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> tank will be too small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> for this lovely giant but I would not expect it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> grow any bigger unless it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> known freshwater fish alive).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> They can be finicky on feeding but it does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> that they have to be fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> try to train it to accept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> non live food like prawns, prepared food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> carnivore pellets etc. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> reduces the chance of contracting disease from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> feeder fish and also floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> food creates a more natural environment for them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> prevents a common disorder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >> in arowana called b
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6551 From: aximiliguru Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aquarium Straita
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You can't really avoid that, but you could try keeping the vacuum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              from actually touching the sand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Larry"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <gwt37205@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have changed my gravel for Tahitian Moon sand, How do I vaccum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > without sucking sand up also?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6552 From: aximiliguru Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Just compliments about Tire track eels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hey all. Aximiliguru here. I just made this post to tell everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about how cool tire track eels are. There are 6 reasons why I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they rule (though other fish are cool too)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. They are relatively peaceful and docile compared to morays.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. They can be taught to be hand fed- I have taught mine to even be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              hand held.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3. They are not that expensive and are pretty easy to raise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              4. (I think) They are very attractive looking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              5. They are very, very graceful and curious. Mine goes everywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              6. They can get long but don't require a huge aquarium, as long as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              you take good care of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That's just what I think. I'm an eel kind of guy. I love all fish but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              especially long, curious looking fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, if anyone knows how to get a barracuda to eat (no, really!) I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              would love some advice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for even reading my rambling. See ya.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6553 From: straubtyler Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You could hang a sign on a local bulleton board at the grocery store,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gas station, laundry mat or somewhere like that. People get rid of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cats and dogs like that all the time. Idont see why not fish it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              worth a try.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a 10-gallons tank. I have two 5" goldfish, one 2.5" pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > a small snail in this tank.I have been having to a problem with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > water turning cloudy. I am having to clean the tank every couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > days. I don't overfeed them. I normally clean the tank once a week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Our LFS said they will not take these goldfish in. I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > for bigger fish tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6554 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Digest Number 473 - WAS NEED GOLDFISH ADVICE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 10/28/04 10:05:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               From: "straubtyler" <straubtyler@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You could hang a sign on a local bulleton board at the grocery store,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              gas station, laundry mat or somewhere like that.  People get rid of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cats and dogs like that all the time.  Idont see why not fish it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              worth a try.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Or check your local newspaper.  Mine has a Giveaway column - there were free goldfish in it just a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6555 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I still say leave them on the counter if they want it or not.  Goldfish and plecos will die in a 10 gallon tank.  If they leave them, their deaths will be the fault of mean fish people and not their own.  If they know somebody that will take them they wouldn't have a problem. :)  And the cloudiness is a "bacteria bloom", the common name for any type of cloudy water caused in any way by bacteria. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i have to take issue with you there patrick.  it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                says they do not want your fish.  fish have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to take up a whole tank with someone elses problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish.  if they are to big for your tank, call and ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the store if they are willing to take them first.  if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                home for the pets that you were not prepared to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                care for the long term.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A second point is that the cloudiness is not do to an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                over abundance of bacteria in the tank.  the bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                faster rate to keepo up with the pollution caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the fish.  in this case it is most likely from over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cleaning the tank.  if you are cleaning out the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have to repopulate the tank.  if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                staying clean, upgrade the filtration.  everytime you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                clean out the tank you are restarting the tank.  if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you are cleaning everything but the filter, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                check, and it will always be cloudy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6556 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would suggest your local freecycle.. I know ppl that have gotten rid of chichilds and other fish from that... you could request to talk with them over the phone to feel better about their home.. with that the ppl getting the product come to you unless you want to meet or go to them.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You could hang a sign on a local bulleton board at the grocery store,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gas station, laundry mat or somewhere like that.  People get rid of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cats and dogs like that all the time.  Idont see why not fish it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                worth a try.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6557 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Your PH is perfect for these fish. Do not bother anymore about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 28 October 2004 18:03
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Baking Soda to raise ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I have a established 30 gal. with two Rainbows, three Danios, two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >cherry barbs, three scissior tails, three Black Tetras, one Black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Molly, one small Pleco, one 3" Dojo Loach, one 2" Cory, and a Ghost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Shrimp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Do small water changes to prevent any PH Shock. Healthy fish can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >very well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> survive PH shocks but again they may not. I have had a PH crash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >from 8.4 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> less then 5 over night without a single casualty or a disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >breakout so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> health of the fish plays a major role in this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> You do not have to aim for a PH of 7.0. Just continue with water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> until your PH is back to 6.5 (Same as your tap water) and let it be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> What fish do you have in there?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@j...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >Sent: 27 October 2004 20:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Baking Soda to raise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >Like you said it is to late now and my fish are still kicking for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >now!! I am just going to do water changes every day till I get it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >close to 7.0 as I can. sound like a sound idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> Shortlid, Patrick has the right idea; you should have left the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> was as 6.5 is not bad at all. But from what you're saying, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >of too late
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> now, since you've already added 3 tbls of baking soda. I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >surprised your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> are alive! Next time if you're going to do something like that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> actually knowing how to do it yourself, do not rely on the lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >guy -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >- ask us. About
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> 1/4 tsp. for each 10 gallons would have raised your pH to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >approximately 7.2 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> that's too much to do at one time; you needed to do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >gradually --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >1/8 tsp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> per 10 gallons each day for 2 days. Bringing the pH down too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >all at once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> now will only shock the fish more. With that much baking soda in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> you will never get the pH back down with any amount of pH dropper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >as you will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> fighting all that buffering capacity. Best way is to start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> (GRADUALLY) each day. In fact, that would have been they best way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >to slightly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> raise the pH in the beginning, as I'm willing to bet, unless I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >wrong, that your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> tap water is slightly alkaline. If your tap water is by some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >acid, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> should not have tried to alter your pH at all, but just be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >with what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> you've got. Over time, your pH will have a tendency to drop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >naturally as that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> a slow end result of the ammonia cycle. More frequent water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> have kept the pH from dropping in the first place. Best of luck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Ray
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6558 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe it was an arapima or a trick photography or could be a unique specimen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as well but the size of fish on fishbase.org are wild/natural sizes as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                website is dedicated to contain species database for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                research/IUCN/Redlist/CITES purposes rather then aquarium. I have also been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                unable to find any documented evidence that arowanas grow larger then 48"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (4ft). But an average their size in the wild is also 3.5-4ft.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 29 October 2004 01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >that is in the wild, and i have only seen pics once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >from fisherman of a 6 footer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> I checked the fishbae.org and none of the arowanas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> there are longer then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> 120cm and except for 1, all are under or 100cm. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> have never heard of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> 6foot arowana myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >Sent: 28 October 2004 16:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >arowana do reach 6 feet in the wild, and if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >given a an 8 foot 500 gallon tank, and fed a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >protein, they could hit 5 ft., but massive amounts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >proteim are not good. make sure he does not use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> beef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >heart. the hormones in it make the fish grow fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >but shorten the life, as will over feeding gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >try using large cichlid pellets and feeders as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >treat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >--- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> I haven't personally met him maybe i will and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> do ill let you know.. but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> he has it in the 180 tank now and he is building
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> 550 i don't know if he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> feeds it other things just know that he does the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> feeder fish.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> between 2.5ft to 3.5ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> too I believe in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> These are my dream fish but I do not have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> or the ability to care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> them and so just enjoy watching them when ever I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> the opportunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the 180
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> tank will be too small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> for this lovely giant but I would not expect it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> grow any bigger unless it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the largest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> known freshwater fish alive).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> They can be finicky on feeding but it does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> that they have to be fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> try to train it to accept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> non live food like prawns, prepared food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> carnivore pellets etc. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> reduces the chance of contracting disease from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> feeder fish and also floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> food creates a more natural environment for them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> prevents a common disorder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> >> in arowana called b
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6559 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree. 55 gallon for goldfish is also a bit small as I keep them in a 100
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon tank and you can notice how happy they are in there :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Sent: 28 October 2004 22:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Best advise that can be given: 55 gallon tank minimum. Goldfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >plecos are very large and messy fish that need a lot of room. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >messyness probably the cause of a bacterial bloom causing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >cloudiness. Bigger tank or new home for the fish, those are your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >options. :( A suggestion for a fish guy that says they won't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >the fish, leave the fish on their counter. You won't get money for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >them, but I guarentee they will sell them quickly. Probably to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >somebody with a 5 gallon tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> I have a 10-gallons tank. I have two 5" goldfish, one 2.5" pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> a small snail in this tank.I have been having to a problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> water turning cloudy. I am having to clean the tank every couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> days. I don't overfeed them. I normally clean the tank once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Our LFS said they will not take these goldfish in. I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> for bigger fish tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6560 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: R/O Units
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm looking to buy a R/O filter for use with my tanks as my well water pH and Hardness have become unstable. My question is for freshwater tanks is there any reason to have a DI Cartridge on the unit. There is little difference in price between units with and without the DI filter. But unless there is a real benefit to using it its just another cartridge to replace. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6561 From: Michelle Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: What do blue lobsters eat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "helen572"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <shirley345@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > We have a small blue lobster in our 20-gal. tank (with four
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cichlids).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The pet store owner told us that he can eat anything.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I feed mine frozen brine and frozen bloodworms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Michelle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6562 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But I have to agree with Paul you normaly give good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                advice but you cannot dump fish on a counter. That to me shows lack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of responsiblity. You would not do it to a cat or dog so why do it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a fish,some thing you seem to care about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Live in peace Dave






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i have to take issue with you there patrick. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > says they do not want your fish. fish have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to take up a whole tank with someone elses problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish. if they are to big for your tank, call and ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the store if they are willing to take them first. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home for the pets that you were not prepared to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > care for the long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > A second point is that the cloudiness is not do to an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > faster rate to keepo up with the pollution caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish. in this case it is most likely from over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > staying clean, upgrade the filtration. everytime you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clean out the tank you are restarting the tank. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you are cleaning everything but the filter, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > check, and it will always be cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Best advise that can be given: 55 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > minimum. Goldfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plecos are very large and messy fish that need a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of room. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > messyness probably the cause of a bacterial bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > causing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cloudiness. Bigger tank or new home for the fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > those are your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > options. :( A suggestion for a fish guy that says
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they won't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the fish, leave the fish on their counter. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > won't get money for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > them, but I guarentee they will sell them quickly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Probably to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > somebody with a 5 gallon tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I have a 10-gallons tank. I have two 5" goldfish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > one 2.5" pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a small snail in this tank.I have been having to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water turning cloudy. I am having to clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank every couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > days. I don't overfeed them. I normally clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Our LFS said they will not take these goldfish in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > for bigger fish tank. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6563 From: paul helms Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                good to know, but i do know that the picture was not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                doctored or tricked. the angler who caught it was 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                foot 9 and the arrowana was longer than he was tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                he was a former customer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Maybe it was an arapima or a trick photography or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > could be a unique specimen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as well but the size of fish on fishbase.org are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wild/natural sizes as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > website is dedicated to contain species database for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > research/IUCN/Redlist/CITES purposes rather then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > aquarium. I have also been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unable to find any documented evidence that arowanas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > grow larger then 48"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (4ft). But an average their size in the wild is also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3.5-4ft.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >Sent: 29 October 2004 01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >that is in the wild, and i have only seen pics once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >from fisherman of a 6 footer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >--- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> I checked the fishbae.org and none of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > arowanas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> there are longer then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> 120cm and except for 1, all are under or 100cm. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> have never heard of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> 6foot arowana myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >Sent: 28 October 2004 16:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >arowana do reach 6 feet in the wild, and if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >given a an 8 foot 500 gallon tank, and fed a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >protein, they could hit 5 ft., but massive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amounts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >proteim are not good. make sure he does not use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> beef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >heart. the hormones in it make the fish grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >but shorten the life, as will over feeding gold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >try using large cichlid pellets and feeders as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >treat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >--- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> I haven't personally met him maybe i will and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> do ill let you know.. but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> he has it in the 180 tank now and he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > building
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> 550 i don't know if he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> feeds it other things just know that he does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> feeder fish.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> Not 5 ft. Arowana (Depending on species) are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> between 2.5ft to 3.5ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> and very rarely any specimen reaches 4ft and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> too I believe in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> These are my dream fish but I do not have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> space
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> or the ability to care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> them and so just enjoy watching them when ever
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> the opportunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> If his Arowana is at 3.5ft then I think the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 180
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> gal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> tank will be too small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> for this lovely giant but I would not expect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> grow any bigger unless it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> an arapima (cousin of arowana but is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > largest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> known freshwater fish alive).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> They can be finicky on feeding but it does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> that they have to be fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> feeder fish everytime. If it were me then I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> try to train it to accept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> non live food like prawns, prepared food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> carnivore pellets etc. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> reduces the chance of contracting disease from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> feeder fish and also floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> food creates a more natural environment for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> prevents a common disorder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >> >> in arowana called b
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6564 From: paul helms Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the point that the over cleaning is causing it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank needs to be left alone to catch up. last thing i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will say about leaving fish on the counter is that i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would ask any customer who left them after i said not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to return to my store again. why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have to deal with someone elses negligence? no means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                your knowledge in aquaria is excellent. this is just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a question of ethics.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I still say leave them on the counter if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > want it or not. Goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and plecos will die in a 10 gallon tank. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > leave them, their deaths
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will be the fault of mean fish people and not their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > own. If they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > somebody that will take them they wouldn't have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem. :) And the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cloudiness is a "bacteria bloom", the common name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for any type of cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water caused in any way by bacteria. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i have to take issue with you there patrick. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > says they do not want your fish. fish have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to take up a whole tank with someone elses problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish. if they are to big for your tank, call and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the store if they are willing to take them first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home for the pets that you were not prepared to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > care for the long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > A second point is that the cloudiness is not do to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > faster rate to keepo up with the pollution caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish. in this case it is most likely from over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > staying clean, upgrade the filtration. everytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clean out the tank you are restarting the tank. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you are cleaning everything but the filter, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > check, and it will always be cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6565 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ok to put the end to this fighting I am going to make one thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                clear. I WILL NOT just dump my fish. I am just going to have to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                someone that wants them. It is to cold here to put them in a pond,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                so that is not a opition either. I guess I will have to deal with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                problem until spring when I can get one of my LFS to help. Maybe?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have another question, what would cause a fish to list to the side?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One of my angels is listing to the side at times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tammy


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the point that the over cleaning is causing it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank needs to be left alone to catch up. last thing i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will say about leaving fish on the counter is that i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would ask any customer who left them after i said not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to return to my store again. why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have to deal with someone elses negligence? no means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your knowledge in aquaria is excellent. this is just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a question of ethics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I still say leave them on the counter if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want it or not. Goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and plecos will die in a 10 gallon tank. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > leave them, their deaths
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > will be the fault of mean fish people and not their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > own. If they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > somebody that will take them they wouldn't have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem. :) And the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cloudiness is a "bacteria bloom", the common name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for any type of cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > water caused in any way by bacteria. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i have to take issue with you there patrick. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > says they do not want your fish. fish have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to take up a whole tank with someone elses problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > fish. if they are to big for your tank, call and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the store if they are willing to take them first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > home for the pets that you were not prepared to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > care for the long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > A second point is that the cloudiness is not do to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > faster rate to keepo up with the pollution caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the fish. in this case it is most likely from over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > staying clean, upgrade the filtration. everytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > clean out the tank you are restarting the tank. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > you are cleaning everything but the filter, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > check, and it will always be cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6566 From: paul helms Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a swim bladder infection could do that, which is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacterial infection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ok to put the end to this fighting I am going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > make one thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > clear. I WILL NOT just dump my fish. I am just going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to have to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > someone that wants them. It is to cold here to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them in a pond,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > so that is not a opition either. I guess I will have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to deal with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem until spring when I can get one of my LFS to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help. Maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have another question, what would cause a fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > list to the side?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > One of my angels is listing to the side at times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the point that the over cleaning is causing it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank needs to be left alone to catch up. last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > thing i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > will say about leaving fish on the counter is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > would ask any customer who left them after i said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to return to my store again. why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have to deal with someone elses negligence? no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > your knowledge in aquaria is excellent. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a question of ethics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I still say leave them on the counter if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > want it or not. Goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and plecos will die in a 10 gallon tank. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > leave them, their deaths
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > will be the fault of mean fish people and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > own. If they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > somebody that will take them they wouldn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > problem. :) And the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cloudiness is a "bacteria bloom", the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > for any type of cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > water caused in any way by bacteria. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > i have to take issue with you there patrick. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > says they do not want your fish. fish have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to take up a whole tank with someone elses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > fish. if they are to big for your tank, call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the store if they are willing to take them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > home for the pets that you were not prepared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > care for the long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > A second point is that the cloudiness is not do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > faster rate to keepo up with the pollution
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the fish. in this case it is most likely from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > staying clean, upgrade the filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > everytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > clean out the tank you are restarting the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > you are cleaning everything but the filter, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > check, and it will always be cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > now.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6567 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So what can I do for a swim bladder infection?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a swim bladder infection could do that, which is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacterial infection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- wolf1@o... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Ok to put the end to this fighting I am going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > make one thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > clear. I WILL NOT just dump my fish. I am just going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to have to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > someone that wants them. It is to cold here to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > them in a pond,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > so that is not a opition either. I guess I will have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to deal with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem until spring when I can get one of my LFS to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > help. Maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I have another question, what would cause a fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > list to the side?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > One of my angels is listing to the side at times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the point that the over cleaning is causing it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > tank needs to be left alone to catch up. last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > thing i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > will say about leaving fish on the counter is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > would ask any customer who left them after i said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to return to my store again. why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > have to deal with someone elses negligence? no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > your knowledge in aquaria is excellent. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a question of ethics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > I still say leave them on the counter if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > want it or not. Goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > and plecos will die in a 10 gallon tank. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > leave them, their deaths
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > will be the fault of mean fish people and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > own. If they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > somebody that will take them they wouldn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > problem. :) And the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > cloudiness is a "bacteria bloom", the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > for any type of cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > water caused in any way by bacteria. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > i have to take issue with you there patrick. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > says they do not want your fish. fish have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > to take up a whole tank with someone elses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > fish. if they are to big for your tank, call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the store if they are willing to take them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > home for the pets that you were not prepared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > care for the long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > A second point is that the cloudiness is not do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > faster rate to keepo up with the pollution
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the fish. in this case it is most likely from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > staying clean, upgrade the filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > everytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > clean out the tank you are restarting the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > you are cleaning everything but the filter, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > check, and it will always be cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6568 From: straubtyler Date: 10/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You can feed your fish peas just thaw some frozen peas thes squeeze
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them so the skin comes off and drop a few it the tank. you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                also try fasting the fish dont feed them anything for 3-4 days. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have tryed both and both worked well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > So what can I do for a swim bladder infection?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a swim bladder infection could do that, which is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bacterial infection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > --- wolf1@o... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Ok to put the end to this fighting I am going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > make one thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > clear. I WILL NOT just dump my fish. I am just going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to have to find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > someone that wants them. It is to cold here to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > them in a pond,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > so that is not a opition either. I guess I will have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to deal with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > problem until spring when I can get one of my LFS to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > help. Maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > I have another question, what would cause a fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > list to the side?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > One of my angels is listing to the side at times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > the point that the over cleaning is causing it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > tank needs to be left alone to catch up. last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > thing i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > will say about leaving fish on the counter is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > would ask any customer who left them after i said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > to return to my store again. why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > have to deal with someone elses negligence? no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > your knowledge in aquaria is excellent. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > a question of ethics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > I still say leave them on the counter if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > want it or not. Goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > and plecos will die in a 10 gallon tank. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > leave them, their deaths
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > will be the fault of mean fish people and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > own. If they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > somebody that will take them they wouldn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > problem. :) And the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > cloudiness is a "bacteria bloom", the common
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > for any type of cloudy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > water caused in any way by bacteria. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > i have to take issue with you there patrick. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > not ok to abandon fish on the counter of a store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > says they do not want your fish. fish have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > pefect looking to be sold, and the store may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > to take up a whole tank with someone elses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > fish. if they are to big for your tank, call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > ask
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the store if they are willing to take them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > first.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > they don't want them, then it is up to YOU to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > home for the pets that you were not prepared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > care for the long term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > A second point is that the cloudiness is not do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > over abundance of bacteria in the tank. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > bloom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > happens when the bacteria needs to reproduce at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > faster rate to keepo up with the pollution
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > caused by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > the fish. in this case it is most likely from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > cleaning the tank. if you are cleaning out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > every week, you are wiping out bacteria, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > have to repopulate the tank. if the tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > staying clean, upgrade the filtration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > everytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > clean out the tank you are restarting the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > you are cleaning everything but the filter, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > not leaving enough bacteria to keep everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > check, and it will always be cloudy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > > > http://messenger.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > _______________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > http://messenger.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6569 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I misunderstood what you said about the bac bloom.  Sorry about that.  I understand what you mean about leaving them completely, just never looked at it from a good lfs guy's perspective. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the point that the over cleaning is causing it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  tank needs to be left alone to catch up.  last thing i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  will say about leaving fish on the counter is that i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  would ask any customer who left them after i said not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to return to my store again.  why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have to deal with someone elses negligence?  no means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  your knowledge in aquaria is excellent.  this is just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a question of ethics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6570 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I understand what you mean, but people do dump cats and dogs all the time.  In fact, I have had a pet cat and now have a pet dog that were both strays.  You don't have to buy a pet around here, they come to you for free! :( 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now if somebody starts dropping off fish tanks with fish in them, that would be nice!  I would happily take in those strays. :)  (couldn't leave the message ending with a frown)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 But I have to agree with Paul you normaly give good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    advice but you cannot dump fish on a counter. That to me shows lack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of responsiblity. You would not do it to a cat or dog so why do it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a fish,some thing you seem to care about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Live in peace Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6571 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: arowanda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe it had a genetic issue that caused it to grow larger than normal, like "giant" people have the rare gene that makes them grow over 7 feet tall. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      good to know, but i do know that the picture was not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      doctored or tricked.  the angler who caught it was 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      foot 9 and the arrowana was longer than he was tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      he was a former customer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6572 From: Julie Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will second the freecycle suggestion wholeheartedly.   That is how I picked up a 20 gallon tank, and I know that people are sometimes posting dogs and cats.  Just be sure to  ask questions, be sure you are not putting the fish with someone who wants fish for their kids' rooms and wants to put them in small tanks.  You could also try posting on mulitple groups.  Depending on where you live and your desire to drive to them or meet somewhere.  I am on 3 lists, two for places roughly 50 mins drive, but I go there often enough that its not a problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Need some goldfish advise

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would suggest your local freecycle.. I know ppl that have gotten rid of chichilds and other fish from that... you could request to talk with them over the phone to feel better about their home.. with that the ppl getting the product come to you unless you want to meet or go to them.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6573 From: Julie Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: was Need some goldfish advise ?? on peas...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This probably has been asked before, but do they have to be frozen? Will no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      salt added canned work?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "straubtyler" <straubtyler@...>



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You can feed your fish peas just thaw some frozen peas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6574 From: straubtyler Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: was Need some goldfish advise ?? on peas...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Iv never tryed using canned peas but i think theywould work ok. From
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      what i understand about swim bladder problems alot of the time it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      caused by constipation. the peas help jet things moving. that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      also why fasting works of a fish is constipated and it keeps eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it gets bloated and that puts pressure on the swim blader. I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      an expert on this ive just read about it and tryed it on myfish with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      good results. If Im wrong somebody please correct me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Julie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <jaramey@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > This probably has been asked before, but do they have to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      frozen? Will no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > salt added canned work?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "straubtyler" <straubtyler@w...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > You can feed your fish peas just thaw some frozen peas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6575 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yept I got her set up on 3 lists close to her area... she I am sure will find a home for them... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will second the freecycle suggestion wholeheartedly.   That is how I picked up a 20 gallon tank, and I know that people are sometimes posting dogs and cats.  Just be sure to  ask questions, be sure you are not putting the fish with someone who wants fish for their kids' rooms and wants to put them in small tanks.  You could also try posting on mulitple groups.  Depending on where you live and your desire to drive to them or meet somewhere.  I am on 3 lists, two for places roughly 50 mins drive, but I go there often enough that its not a problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6576 From: paul helms Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lol, i hope you understood the no means no was a joke,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i forgot the smiley face!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I misunderstood what you said about the bac
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > bloom. Sorry about that. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > understand what you mean about leaving them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > completely, just never looked at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > it from a good lfs guy's perspective. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > yes it is called a bacteril bloom, but i was making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the point that the over cleaning is causing it, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that it is not bad in itself, but indicating that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank needs to be left alone to catch up. last thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > will say about leaving fish on the counter is that i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > would ask any customer who left them after i said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to return to my store again. why should the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > have to deal with someone elses negligence? no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > no pat, whether it is from your date or the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > p.s. i usually agree with most of what you say, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > your knowledge in aquaria is excellent. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a question of ethics.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6577 From: Robb Date: 10/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Or maybe the LFS will just flush them. Yes I've seen this happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They do not want to set up a Q tank and will not take the chance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      killing there stock, they then just flush them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I workd a while (like 8 years) for a mom and pop shop and we had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      this done 3 times and as sad as it was rhey just dumped the fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I fugure who ever bought the fish needs to deal with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Robb



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > A suggestion for a fish guy that says they won't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the fish, leave the fish on their counter. You won't get money >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > for them, but I guarentee they will sell them quickly. Probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > to somebody with a 5 gallon tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6578 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Our 100 litre  is the problem. We have just finished treatment for whitespot and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a couple of Mollies. Well for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had over exaggerated breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving really deeply. She has gone really dark, and she is just laying on the floor sometimes going onto her side. We tested the water and here are the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Am -  0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6579 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        im wondering if it is an issue with the meds being done did you take them away quickly or gradually... other than that doesnt sound like swim bladder since she would be like flipping around and or circling around... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Our 100 litre  is the problem. We have just finished treatment for whitespot and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a couple of Mollies. Well for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had over exaggerated breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving really deeply. She has gone really dark, and she is just laying on the floor sometimes going onto her side. We tested the water and here are the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Am -  0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6580 From: straubtyler Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What about temp? Ifyou were teating for ich you surly rasied the temp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the higher the temp the less oxygen is in the water but if all other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish act ok oxygen is probly ok. sadly these are the signs usaly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seen with a dying fish. maby someone else has a better answer but a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish crashed on the bottom is usaly a very sick fish. i sugest not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doing anything too drastic for the sake of your other fish if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had ich they are already stressed and sudden changes may hurt them.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > im wondering if it is an issue with the meds being done did you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        take them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > away quickly or gradually... other than that doesnt sound like swim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bladder since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she would be like flipping around and or circling around... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Our 100 litre is the problem. We have just finished treatment for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mollies. Well for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breathing her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mouth wide open and her gills moving really deeply. She has gone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really dark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and she is just laying on the floor sometimes going onto her side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the water and here are the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Am - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6581 From: straubtyler Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry i ment to say if temp is at 83-84 leave it there untill ick is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gone and then for 3 more days. if however when you adjusted the temp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you accedently raised it too much then bring it back down to 83 for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ich treatment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What about temp? Ifyou were teating for ich you surly rasied the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        temp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the higher the temp the less oxygen is in the water but if all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish act ok oxygen is probly ok. sadly these are the signs usaly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > seen with a dying fish. maby someone else has a better answer but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish crashed on the bottom is usaly a very sick fish. i sugest not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > doing anything too drastic for the sake of your other fish if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had ich they are already stressed and sudden changes may hurt them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > im wondering if it is an issue with the meds being done did you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > take them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > away quickly or gradually... other than that doesnt sound like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        swim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bladder since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > she would be like flipping around and or circling around...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Our 100 litre is the problem. We have just finished treatment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mollies. Well for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > breathing her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > mouth wide open and her gills moving really deeply. She has gone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really dark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and she is just laying on the floor sometimes going onto her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the water and here are the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Am - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6582 From: paul helms Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank is still cycling. in additiotn, a firemouth does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        causing them to get ick. the more fish that have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Our 100 litre is the problem. We have just finished
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treatment for whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of Mollies. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really deeply. She has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > floor sometimes going onto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > her side. We tested the water and here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Am - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > S & T




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6583 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2  master test kits (1 hagen and 1 interpet) and all our stats are 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We have 1cm baby guppies in with our firemouth's and they don't touch them, neither do they chase any of the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to let them know who's boss. They were certainly not the original cause of the ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 10/31/04 20:25:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank is still cycling.  in additiotn, a firemouth does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          causing them to get ick.  the more fish that have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Our 100 litre  is the problem. We have just finished
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > treatment for whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > couple of Mollies. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > really deeply. She has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > floor sometimes going onto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > her side. We tested the water and here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Am -  0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6584 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: nitrates HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My nitrates are always at 0 with the stip test and tube tests... is that really odd... I thought it was normal... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank is still cycling.  in addition, a firemouth does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          causing them to get ick.  the more fish that have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6585 From: Patrick N. Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have had my nitrates get to 0, but I increased feedings so they would come back up.  Plants were too efficient at the feeding level I had the tank at.  I agree that it is rare, and I have read it is bad for a freshwater tank to have no nitrates because of algae. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tank is still cycling.  in additiotn, a firemouth does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            causing them to get ick.  the more fish that have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6586 From: Patrick N. Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is the tank new?  I wouldn't call 0 nitrates perfect, it is not normal and can lead to certain algaes (and bga I think).  The firemouth is a cichlid, and cichlids are aggressive fish.  They may seem peaceful, but I would bet they aren't all the time.  I had a fish, a rainbow shark by the way, that only attacked at night.  The shark may be causing the problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2  master test kits (1 hagen and 1 interpet) and all our stats are 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We have 1cm baby guppies in with our firemouth's and they don't touch them, neither do they chase any of the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to let them know who's boss. They were certainly not the original cause of the ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6587 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a marble veil tail angel in a 30 gallon that is swimming vertically, with occasional drifting to upside down and the black looks faded.  I have had this fish for 6 months or so, the ammonia is 0, the nitrites are 0, the nitrates are close to 50ppm. (it comes out of the tap at 25-30.)  This is before the weekly water change.  It has another angel in the tank with it that it has been together with since day one, 8 mollies one platty and 3 loaches.  Any hints, helps???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6588 From: paul helms Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              if you want to believe that they are community safe,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              that is up to you. almost any fish can be raised from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a very small juvenile to adult size in a coimmunity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank, and while they may leave those raised with it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              alone, once they are no longer juveniles, they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              undoubtedly eat newly introduced fish. much like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cat may not eat your hamster because he knows that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they hamster is yours, but the second you bring home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              another one, it will be seen as food. i have raise d
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and sold 100's of firemouths, and while there may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              eceptions to the rule, they are not community safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              fish. to quote a few online sites....."Firemouths and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Angelfish are among the least aggressive of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cichlid family, but full-grown they have plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              attitude. This makes them very interesting to keep,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but can also cause conflict and though they may become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the "King of the Tank," they may even be sometimes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              quite shy. "
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              as for 0 nitrates, it was just a recommendation to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              help you out. test kits do go bad, if you don't want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              to make sure your kits are accurate, it is up to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              test strips do not show exact numbers, and while there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              may be 10 ppm it may not show much color because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              first reading, typically, on them is 20 ppm. liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              test kits can have problems when not done 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              correctly. adding 1 more or less drops or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              thoroughly mixing your chemicals between each test can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cause innacurate readings. i am not saying that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are testing inaccurately or attempting to insult you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              but it does happen to all of us at some point. a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              healthy tank is not going to run at 0's across the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              board. with nothing for bacteria to consume, it wil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              die off and your tank will start a new cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2 master test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > kits (1 hagen and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > interpet) and all our stats are 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > have 1cm baby guppies in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with our firemouth's and they don't touch them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > neither do they chase any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > let them know who's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > boss. They were certainly not the original cause of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Date: 10/31/04 20:25:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank is still cycling. in additiotn, a firemouth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > causing them to get ick. the more fish that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Our 100 litre is the problem. We have just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > finished
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > treatment for whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > couple of Mollies. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > really deeply. She has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > floor sometimes going onto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > her side. We tested the water and here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Am - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > > S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6589 From: paul helms Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              some fish have shorter life spans just because of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              genetics, but again it could be swim bladder related
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with the odd swimming patterns. if it has no signs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cloud eye, or ick, or any other obvious things, try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              rainsing the temp to 83 degrees to help it out. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              higher temp helps their metabolism and their immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              system when tehy are ill as they are cold blooded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              having it a bit higher for a week or so will not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              anyone in teh tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- Julie <jaramey@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I have a marble veil tail angel in a 30 gallon that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > is swimming vertically, with occasional drifting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > upside down and the black looks faded. I have had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > this fish for 6 months or so, the ammonia is 0, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > nitrites are 0, the nitrates are close to 50ppm. (it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > comes out of the tap at 25-30.) This is before the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > weekly water change. It has another angel in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > tank with it that it has been together with since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > day one, 8 mollies one platty and 3 loaches. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > hints, helps???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6590 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              this is the same issue that Tammy is having Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a marble veil tail angel in a 30 gallon that is swimming vertically, with occasional drifting to upside down and the black looks faded.  I have had this fish for 6 months or so, the ammonia is 0, the nitrites are 0, the nitrates are close to 50ppm. (it comes out of the tap at 25-30.)  This is before the weekly water change.  It has another angel in the tank with it that it has been together with since day one, 8 mollies one platty and 3 loaches.  Any hints, helps???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6591 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I will admit, I have been very busy and have not been reading every message, but skimming them.  I am not sure which thread is Tammy's.  Sorry.  I will get the three little one off to sleep and research the archive. : )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 6:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel fish swimming vertically

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              this is the same issue that Tammy is having Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a marble veil tail angel in a 30 gallon that is swimming vertically,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6592 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks Paul. I will try raising the temp. And will see if dropping a pea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              or two in the tank will do any good. Can't hurt... Thanks again

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 6:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel fish swimming vertically


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > some fish have shorter life spans just because of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > genetics, but again it could be swim bladder related
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > with the odd swimming patterns. if it has no signs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cloud eye, or ick, or any other obvious things, try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > rainsing the temp to 83 degrees to help it out. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > higher temp helps their metabolism and their immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > system when tehy are ill as they are cold blooded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > having it a bit higher for a week or so will not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > anyone in teh tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > --- Julie <jaramey@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> I have a marble veil tail angel in a 30 gallon that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> is swimming vertically, with occasional drifting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> upside down and the black looks faded. I have had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> this fish for 6 months or so, the ammonia is 0, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> nitrites are 0, the nitrates are close to 50ppm. (it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> comes out of the tap at 25-30.) This is before the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> weekly water change. It has another angel in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> tank with it that it has been together with since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> day one, 8 mollies one platty and 3 loaches. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> hints, helps???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >> I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6593 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The strand started out as her goldfish pleas then grew from there.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              will admit, I have been very busy and have not been reading every message, but skimming them.  I am not sure which thread is Tammy's.  Sorry.  I will get the three little one off to sleep and research the archive. : )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6594 From: Julie Date: 10/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel fish swimming vertically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks Shannon.  That will make the research much easier!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel fish swimming vertically

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The strand started out as her goldfish pleas then grew from there.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6595 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I still have to disagree i have also bred and raised firemouth's. Whenever babies are born into the tank they aren't touched.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We think that the problem was the male, as everytime he "advanced"  to her she didn't want to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Also 1 of our test kits are brand new  we only got it a few weeks ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 11/01/04 01:49:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you want to believe that they are community safe,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that is up to you.  almost any fish can be raised from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a very small juvenile to adult size in a coimmunity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank, and while they may leave those raised with it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                alone, once they are no longer juveniles, they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                undoubtedly eat newly introduced fish.  much like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cat may not eat your hamster because he knows that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they hamster is yours, but the second you bring home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                another one, it will be seen as food.  i have raise d
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and sold 100's of firemouths, and while there may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eceptions to the rule, they are not community safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish.  to quote a few online sites....."Firemouths and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Angelfish are among the least aggressive of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cichlid family, but full-grown they have plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                attitude. This makes them very interesting to keep,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but can also cause conflict and though they may become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the "King of the Tank," they may even be sometimes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                quite shy. "
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as for 0 nitrates, it was just a  recommendation to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                help you out.  test kits do go bad, if you don't want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to make sure your kits are accurate, it is up to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                test strips do not show exact numbers, and while there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                may be 10 ppm it may not show much color because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                first reading, typically, on them is 20 ppm.  liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                test kits can have problems when not done 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                correctly.  adding 1 more or less drops or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thoroughly mixing your chemicals between each test can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cause innacurate readings.  i am not saying that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are testing inaccurately or attempting to insult you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but it does happen to all of us at some point.  a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                healthy tank is not going to run at 0's across the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                board.  with nothing for bacteria to consume, it wil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                die off and your tank will start a new cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2  master test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > kits (1 hagen and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > interpet) and all our stats are 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have 1cm baby guppies in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with our firemouth's and they don't touch them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > neither do they chase any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > let them know who's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > boss. They were certainly not the original cause of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Date: 10/31/04 20:25:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank is still cycling.  in additiotn, a firemouth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > causing them to get ick.  the more fish that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Our 100 litre  is the problem. We have just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > finished
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > treatment for whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > couple of Mollies. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > really deeply. She has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > floor sometimes going onto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > her side. We tested the water and here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Am -  0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6596 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  No the tank is a year old. We have no algae in the tank either. We have 2 filters running in the tank and also a air wal that goes across the whole back of the tank. We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any fish in our tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 10/31/04 22:30:04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Is the tank new?  I wouldn't call 0 nitrates perfect, it is not normal and can lead to certain algaes (and bga I think).  The firemouth is a cichlid, and cichlids are aggressive fish.  They may seem peaceful, but I would bet they aren't all the time.  I had a fish, a rainbow shark by the way, that only attacked at night.  The shark may be causing the problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2  master test kits (1 hagen and 1 interpet) and all our stats are 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We have 1cm baby guppies in with our firemouth's and they don't touch them, neither do they chase any of the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to let them know who's boss. They were certainly not the original cause of the ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6597 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!! & Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I cannot say anything about the Firemouths coz I have kept them in community and I have had specimens that were killers. But a risk is involved in keeping any (I mean any) Cichlid in a community tank, be it Discus or Angels.. You know your fish better so he could be a peaceful community type one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As with zero Nitrates. Unless you do 100% change every week with zero nitrate water or have nitrate removal resins etc. in the filter or have a very well planted low fish stock tank or a high tech planted tank or you don’t feed your fish anything (not even once a week) you can have zero nitrates in a 1 yr old tank. Which one of these match your situation? Especially with a messy feeder like Firemouth, I doubt that plants will be able to cope with the waste it produces.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is possible that your test kit says 1st reading as 0-20ppm Nitrates and you over optimistically consider it as zero where as it may be anywhere near 20. As some one else also pointed out that zero nitrates is a bad thing rather then a good thing as it calls in for a dreaded Blue green algae (Cyanobacteria) that can fix its own nitrogen from the atmosphere and hence can survive in water not suitable for any other live plants or algae. Also, if you have zero nitrates, your live plants will not be live for very long.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As with the ICK treatment… can you draft a small post as to what treatment did you use and for how long? I could not find it any of the posts previously and I apologise if I missed it somehow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 01 November 2004 08:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I still have to disagree i have also bred and raised firemouth's. Whenever babies are born into the tank they aren't touched.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We think that the problem was the male, as everytime he "advanced"  to her she d idn 't want to know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also 1 of our test kits are brand new  we only got it a few weeks ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: paul helms

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 11/01/04 01:49:20

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if you want to believe that they are community safe,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that is up to you.  almost any fish can be raised from

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a very small juvenile to adult size in a coimmunity

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank, and while they may leave those raised with it

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    alone, once they are no longer juveniles, they will

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    undoubtedly eat newly introduced fish.  much like a

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cat may not eat your hamster because he knows that

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they hamster is yours, but the second you bring home

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    another one, it will be seen as food.  i have raise d

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and sold 100's of firemouths, and while there may be

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    eceptions to the rule, they are not community safe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish.  to quote a few online sites....."Firemouths and

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Angelfish are among the least aggressive of the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cichlid family, but full-grown they have plenty of

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    attitude. This makes them very interesting to keep,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but can also cause conflict and though they may become

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the "King of the Tank," they may even be sometimes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    quite shy. "

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      as for 0 nitrates, it was just a  recommendation to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    help you out.  test kits do go bad, if you don't want

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to make sure your kits are accurate, it is up to you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    test strips do not show exact numbers, and while there

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    may be 10 ppm it may not show much color because the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    first reading, typically, on them is 20 ppm.  liquid

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    test kits can have problems when not done 100%

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    correctly.  adding 1 more or less drops or not

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thoroughly mixing your chemicals between each test can

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cause innacurate readings.  i am not saying that you

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are testing inaccurately or attempting to insult you,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but it does happen to all of us at some point.  a

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    healthy tank is not going to run at 0's across the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    board.  with nothing for bacteria to consume, it wil

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    die off and your tank will start a new cycle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2  master test

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kits (1 hagen and 1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > interpet) and all our stats are 0.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have 1cm baby guppies in

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with our firemouth's and they don't touch them,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > neither do they chase any of

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > let them know who's

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > boss. They were certainly not the original cause of

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the ick.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: paul helms

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Date: 10/31/04 20:25:43

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > URGENT!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank is still cycling.  in additiotn, a firemouth

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > does

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not belong in with community fish, and may be the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > community fish, they may be getting stressed out,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > causing them to get ick.  the more fish that have

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish succeptible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > We need some help people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Our 100 litre  is the problem. We have just

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > finished

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > treatment for whitespot

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > couple of Mollies. Well

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over exaggerated

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > really deeply. She has

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > floor sometimes going onto

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > her side. We tested the water and here are the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > results.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Am -  0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrate - 0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrite - 0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > PH - 7.8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > As you see water is perfect.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > so any ideas?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > S & T

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6598 From: Faithe Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is a Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly she had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    noticed a popeye I added some salt and that seemed to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    itself. Well, since she had the fry we were overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I happened to notice lots of gross looking white thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet and said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    heater off (i had the heater up too high i think as well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did that and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water today (half the tank) and those friggin buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco and she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gallon I have an infestation of snails as well. Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl suggested aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    too, I doubt it will help. Any suggestions? Im so frustrated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can someone tell me where is the safest place to buy fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with something. Although I probably welcomed the white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    neomotodes) with the warm tank and overfeeding.......

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6599 From: Ashley Capps Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: New & Question Setting Up Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My name is Ashley and I just wanted to introduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    myself to the list. I'm 24, married with one daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and expecting my second child in March. I have kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aquariums for several years now with various types of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish. My current fish population is as follows. LOL 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gallon tank with 4 Buenos Aires Tetras, 5 Black Widow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Tetras, 5 Bloodfin Tetras, an Albino Cory Catfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    a Spotted Cory Catfish. I have a 10 gallon tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    feeder Endlers in it, temporary 5 gallon with 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Platies and a batch of new fry in a v-breeder, 4 male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Bettas in their own fish bowls, blue, red, white and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yellow and a female Betta in the feeder tank in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    huricane glass (she will attack most any fish now).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My question is really any advice for setting up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Angels. Its been years since I had any and back then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    all but one died and she grew to full size and even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spawned though I didn't have a male with her. She was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gorgeous and my pride and joy. I would love to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    new set-up going with Angels again. I have a 20 tall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that I would like to set them up in and really only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have maybe a cory cat or two with them and no other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    types of fish. I keep live plants in all my aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and will in the Angel tank too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I recently sold my other 30 tank to a gentleman who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    actually has a successful spawn of Angel babies. He's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    never bred them before so he's learning as he goes. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    will hopefully get some from him when they're on solid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    foods.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope to hear from you soon! Thanks for reading.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ashley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ashley Capps
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6600 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish in our tank."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the cause of my betta's fin problems. Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    were the fin problems. They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6601 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomato...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Faithe,  Sounds like you are describing Planaria, if they are crawling on the side glasses of the tank. They are really harmless, but of course unsightly.  They come from overfeeding, which is what you said  has happened.  They can be gotten rid of by returning the tank to clean conditions, whereby they will soon disappear.  The 50% water change was a good move to start with.  In addition, try to vacuum the gravel as best you can to remove as much excess food that may have gotten down in there.  Certain fish will eat them; often Guppies will, as well as Paradise fish, and their relatives the Pearl Gourami and the Dwarf Gourami.  Clown Loaches will eat the snails.  If you don't have catfish (cory's. etc.) its a good idea to add some as they'll clean up the uneaten food that falls between the gravel. As a last resort, the Planaria can be gotten rid of with potassium permanganate which you can get at your lfs  (local fish store), but I really don't think you want to go that route if you don't have to as it turns the water dark purple and after a few days turns to brown.  The water is somewhat reduced of oxygen with this as its an oxodizer.  You're probably better off tearing the tank down, ifvit comes to that.  Best place to get fish is at a small local mom & pop fish store (or any other place except a chain store).  As far as turning the heater off, that in itself will have little effect on the Planaria and you are risking disease, like Ich, if the temperature drops too much.  The fish can go without food for three days, and then, feed more sparingly.  This three day fast, by itself will not get rid of the Planaria either, but it may be a help.  Again, they can't survive in clean conditions, so just keep trying to clean it up (more water changes, cleaning the gravel, etc.)  Ray    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6602 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have had a shark i all the tanks i have kept and never had a problem. I must have the nice ones :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 11/01/04 19:15:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fish in our tank."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the cause of my betta's fin problems.  Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      were the fin problems.  They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6603 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are these red finned sharks we're talking about? i have a pair and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anything, they're the victims in my tank! their dorsal fins both have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tears :( does anyone have any ideas how to fix this? there's no bites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      taken out, they're just sort of torn, like ripped paper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Nov 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have had a shark i all the tanks i have kept and never had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > problem. I must have the nice ones :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: 11/01/04 19:15:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fish in our tank."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >     :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the cause of my betta's fin problems.  Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > were the fin problems.  They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6604 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!! & Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Our tank is well planted. It has 2 internal filters with carbon, and we water change about 20 litre's of the 100 about once every 3 weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We do not have any of the blue algae that you describe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With  the white spot we raised the temp for a day then, added our treatment, then the second dose. when told by the bottle. After a week we then did a good gravel clean.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 11/01/04 10:36:18
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!! & Nitrates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I cannot say anything about the Firemouths coz I have kept them in community and I have had specimens that were killers. But a risk is involved in keeping any (I mean any) Cichlid in a community tank, be it Discus or Angels.. You know your fish better so he could be a peaceful community type one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As with zero Nitrates. Unless you do 100% change every week with zero nitrate water or have nitrate removal resins etc. in the filter or have a very well planted low fish stock tank or a high tech planted tank or you don’t feed your fish anything (not even once a week) you can have zero nitrates in a 1 yr old tank. Which one of these match your situation? Especially with a messy feeder like Firemouth, I doubt that plants will be able to cope with the waste it produces.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is possible that your test kit says 1st reading as 0-20ppm Nitrates and you over optimistically consider it as zero where as it may be anywhere near 20. As some one else also pointed out that zero nitrates is a bad thing rather then a good thing as it calls in for a dreaded Blue green algae (Cyanobacteria) that can fix its own nitrogen from the atmosphere and hence can survive in water not suitable for any other live plants or algae. Also, if you have zero nitrates, your live plants will not be live for very long.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As with the ICK treatment… can you draft a small post as to what treatment did you use and for how long? I could not find it any of the posts previously and I apologise if I missed it somehow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Sarah Harrison [mailto:sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 01 November 2004 08:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I still have to disagree i have also bred and raised firemouth's. Whenever babies are born into the tank they aren't touched.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We think that the problem was the male, as everytime he "advanced"  to her she d idn 't want to know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also 1 of our test kits are brand new  we only got it a few weeks ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 11/01/04 01:49:20

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP URGENT!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you want to believe that they are community safe,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that is up to you.  almost any fish can be raised from

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a very small juvenile to adult size in a coimmunity

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank, and while they may leave those raised with it

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        alone, once they are no longer juveniles, they will

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        undoubtedly eat newly introduced fish.  much like a

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cat may not eat your hamster because he knows that

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they hamster is yours, but the second you bring home

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        another one, it will be seen as food.  i have raise d

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and sold 100's of firemouths, and while there may be

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eceptions to the rule, they are not community safe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish.  to quote a few online sites....."Firemouths and

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Angelfish are among the least aggressive of the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cichlid family, but full-grown they have plenty of

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        attitude. This makes them very interesting to keep,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but can also cause conflict and though they may become

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the "King of the Tank," they may even be sometimes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quite shy. "

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as for 0 nitrates, it was just a  recommendation to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        help you out.  test kits do go bad, if you don't want

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to make sure your kits are accurate, it is up to you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        test strips do not show exact numbers, and while there

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        may be 10 ppm it may not show much color because the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first reading, typically, on them is 20 ppm.  liquid

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        test kits can have problems when not done 100%

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        correctly.  adding 1 more or less drops or not

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thoroughly mixing your chemicals between each test can

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cause innacurate readings.  i am not saying that you

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are testing inaccurately or attempting to insult you,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but it does happen to all of us at some point.  a

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healthy tank is not going to run at 0's across the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        board.  with nothing for bacteria to consume, it wil

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        die off and your tank will start a new cycle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2  master test

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kits (1 hagen and 1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > interpet) and all our stats are 0.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish. We

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have 1cm baby guppies in

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with our firemouth's and they don't touch them,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neither do they chase any of

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > let them know who's

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > boss. They were certainly not the original cause of

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the ick.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sarah & Tony

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: 10/31/04 20:25:43

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > URGENT!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i recommend getting your water tested by a pet shop,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank is still cycling.  in additiotn, a firemouth

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > does

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not belong in with community fish, and may be the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > community fish, they may be getting stressed out,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > causing them to get ick.  the more fish that have

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish succeptible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@fimofoodfrenzy.co.uk>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > We need some help people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Our 100 litre  is the problem. We have just

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > finished

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > treatment for whitespot

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and a

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > couple of Mollies. Well

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has had

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > over exaggerated

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills moving

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really deeply. She has

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > floor sometimes going onto

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > her side. We tested the water and here are the

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > results.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Am -  0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrate - 0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrite - 0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > PH - 7.8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > As you see water is perfect.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > so any ideas?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > S & T

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6605 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yes amalthea that's what we have the red finned. Careful that they aren't attacking each other though as i have never been able to have more then one shark :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: 11/01/04 23:41:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are these red finned sharks we're talking about? i have a pair and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anything, they're the victims in my tank! their dorsal fins both have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tears :( does anyone have any ideas how to fix this? there's no bites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          taken out, they're just sort of torn, like ripped paper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have had a shark i all the tanks i have kept and never had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > problem. I must have the nice ones :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Date: 11/01/04 19:15:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish in our tank."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >     :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the cause of my betta's fin problems.  Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > were the fin problems.  They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6606 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they seem to stay on opposite sides of the tank most of the time and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hardly notice when they're near one another (though i got them a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          juveniles, so perhaps they're used to each other?) also, my tank has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ton of nooks, crannies and plants to distract everyone in there...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 1, 2004, at 6:45 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > yes amalthea that's what we have the red finned. Careful that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aren't attacking each other though as i have never been able to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > more then one shark :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > From: amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Date: 11/01/04 23:41:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are these red finned sharks we're talking about? i have a pair and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anything, they're the victims in my tank! their dorsal fins both have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tears :( does anyone have any ideas how to fix this? there's no bites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > taken out, they're just sort of torn, like ripped paper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > On Nov 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I have had a shark i all the tanks i have kept and never had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > problem. I must have the nice ones :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Date: 11/01/04 19:15:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish in our tank."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >     :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the cause of my betta's fin problems.  Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > were the fin problems.  They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Patrick N.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6607 From: Shannon Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Since this members list is not available I coudlnt locate your addy I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have some questions about your apple snails... thinking might want or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          need to add some or one to my tanks.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6608 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          speaking of which, terry, are your snails similar to regular apple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          snails in that they live a lot longer in cold water set ups?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 1, 2004, at 7:13 PM, Shannon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Since this members list is not available I coudlnt locate your addy I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have some questions about your apple snails... thinking might want or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > need to add some or one to my tanks.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6609 From: Faithe Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomato...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh thank you so very much Ray! I really appreciate it. I hope I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          described them right, they sort of dance, and they have little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          offspring too, I just noticed a couple when I checked tonight. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          dead ones are on the glass, they look like little pieces of white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thread. Okay, I will try a cory and a guppy. Yes I did vacuum the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gravel today and will do it again in a few days. I just turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          heater back on. I know about the clown loaches eating the snails,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the problem is in the past week in my other tank I have introduced a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          total of 5 clown loaches and each one of them die the next day. Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more concerned at the moment about these gross looking white wormy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          things, they are in my daughters tank in her room, if I dont get rid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of them fast its going to totally turn her off from all this and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          really dont want that to happen. Gosh it all feels so futile at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          moment. Anyhow in the meantime, clean clean clean.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi Faithe, Sounds like you are describing Planaria, if they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          crawling on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the side glasses of the tank. They are really harmless, but of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > unsightly. They come from overfeeding, which is what you said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          has happened. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can be gotten rid of by returning the tank to clean conditions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          whereby they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will soon disappear. The 50% water change was a good move to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          start with. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > addition, try to vacuum the gravel as best you can to remove as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          much excess food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that may have gotten down in there. Certain fish will eat them;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          often Guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will, as well as Paradise fish, and their relatives the Pearl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Gourami and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Dwarf Gourami. Clown Loaches will eat the snails. If you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (cory's. etc.) its a good idea to add some as they'll clean up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          uneaten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > food that falls between the gravel. As a last resort, the Planaria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          can be gotten
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > rid of with potassium permanganate which you can get at your lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (local fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > store), but I really don't think you want to go that route if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to as it turns the water dark purple and after a few days turns to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          brown. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water is somewhat reduced of oxygen with this as its an oxodizer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > probably better off tearing the tank down, ifvit comes to that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Best place to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > get fish is at a small local mom & pop fish store (or any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          place except a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > chain store). As far as turning the heater off, that in itself
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          will have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > little effect on the Planaria and you are risking disease, like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ich, if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature drops too much. The fish can go without food for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          three days, and then,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > feed more sparingly. This three day fast, by itself will not get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          rid of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Planaria either, but it may be a help. Again, they can't survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > conditions, so just keep trying to clean it up (more water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes, cleaning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel, etc.) Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6610 From: eric douglas Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          crean with the water change. It seems to got ride of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          can not go to drastic onm the water change. If anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          killing the frys please let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Eric

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I happened to notice lots of gross looking white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > heater off (i had the heater up too high i think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > too, I doubt it will help. Any suggestions? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frustrated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Can someone tell me where is the safest place to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with something. Although I probably welcomed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6611 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Raspboras and danios seem to love eating them! I have had a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          outbreaks in my tank when there are fry present and I can't stir up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gravel but when I do and they are free floating for a few minutes, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          brilliant raspboras and danios come over super quickly to gobble them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          up. They're relatively small and peaceful (if zippy) fish, so you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          want to give them a shot :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:18 PM, eric douglas wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > crean with the water change. It seems to got ride of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can not go to drastic onm the water change. If anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > overfeeding :(  anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I happened to notice lots of gross looking white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > heater off (i had the heater up too high i think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > disenheartening.  Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > too, I doubt it will help.  Any suggestions? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > frustrated. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Can someone tell me where is the safest place to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > with something.  Although I probably welcomed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Most Sincerely,
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6612 From: eric douglas Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the Raspboras and danios will not hurt the frys?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Raspboras and danios seem to love eating them! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have had a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > outbreaks in my tank when there are fry present and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I can't stir up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel but when I do and they are free floating for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a few minutes, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > brilliant raspboras and danios come over super
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > quickly to gobble them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > up. They're relatively small and peaceful (if zippy)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish, so you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > want to give them a shot :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:18 PM, eric douglas wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > crean with the water change. It seems to got ride
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > can not go to drastic onm the water change. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I happened to notice lots of gross looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > heater off (i had the heater up too high i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > too, I doubt it will help. Any suggestions? Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > frustrated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Can someone tell me where is the safest place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > with something. Although I probably welcomed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6613 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mine all stay grouped on the top near the light, so i doubt it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 1, 2004, at 10:07 PM, eric douglas wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the Raspboras and danios will not hurt the frys?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Raspboras and danios seem to love eating them! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> have had a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> outbreaks in my tank when there are fry present and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> I can't stir up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> gravel but when I do and they are free floating for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> a few minutes, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> brilliant raspboras and danios come over super
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> quickly to gobble them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> up. They're relatively small and peaceful (if zippy)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> fish, so you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> want to give them a shot :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:18 PM, eric douglas wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> crean with the water change. It seems to got ride
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> can not go to drastic onm the water change. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>> --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> noticed a popeye I added some salt and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> I happened to notice lots of gross looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> heater off (i had the heater up too high i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> too, I doubt it will help. Any suggestions? Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> frustrated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Can someone tell me where is the safest place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> with something. Although I probably welcomed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>> Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6614 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 11/5/2004, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Friday November 5, 2004
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.sfaquarium.org/about.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We meet the first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Founded in 1923, the San Francisco Aquarium Society is regarded as one of the nation's esteemed aquarium hobbyist organizations.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6615 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neo...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Us teachers call this a teachable moment.. Use this to show her what happens when you over feed and do not careful or properly take care of them.. this will 1. Gain her knowledge of how to care for her fish properly and 2. show her how to problem solve and 3. See a positive outcome... it is only a bad thing if you make it a bad thing.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh thank you so very much Ray! I really appreciate it. I hope I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          described them right, they sort of dance, and they have little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          offspring too, I just noticed a couple when I checked tonight. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          dead ones are on the glass, they look like little pieces of white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thread. Okay, I will try a cory and a guppy. Yes I did vacuum the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gravel today and will do it again in a few days. I just turned the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          heater back on. I know about the clown loaches eating the snails,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the problem is in the past week in my other tank I have introduced a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          total of 5 clown loaches and each one of them die the next day. Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more concerned at the moment about these gross looking white wormy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          things, they are in my daughters tank in her room, if I dont get rid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of them fast its going to totally turn her off from all this and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          really dont want that to happen.  Gosh it all feels so futile at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          moment. Anyhow in the meantime, clean clean clean.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6616 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A Pair? They are aggressive fish and cannot tolerate the presence of another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of the same species within visible distance. If you have 2 in a 4ft tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they both will fight each other until one becomes the ruler. If you have 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          or more then the aggression will be distributed and things will be much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          better but never a pair of these IME. I have kept these for decades now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a pair is almost never successful. A Single does very well but depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          individuals it can become aggressive to other fish as well and a trio or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more is the best for a large tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 01 November 2004 23:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >are these red finned sharks we're talking about? i have a pair and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >anything, they're the victims in my tank! their dorsal fins both have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >tears :( does anyone have any ideas how to fix this? there's no bites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >taken out, they're just sort of torn, like ripped paper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >On Nov 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> I have had a shark i all the tanks i have kept and never had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> problem. I must have the nice ones :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Date: 11/01/04 19:15:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> fish in our tank."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>     :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> the cause of my betta's fin problems.  Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> were the fin problems.  They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6617 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          hmm, i don't seem to be having any trouble thus far, but i'm not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          against picking up another. they're really adorable and have great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          personalities.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 2, 2004, at 4:51 AM, Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > A Pair? They are aggressive fish and cannot tolerate the presence of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the same species within visible distance. If you have 2 in a 4ft
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they both will fight each other until one becomes the ruler. If you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or more then the aggression will be distributed and things will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > better but never a pair of these IME. I have kept these for decades
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a pair is almost never successful. A Single does very well but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > depending on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > individuals it can become aggressive to other fish as well and a trio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > more is the best for a large tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >Sent: 01 November 2004 23:39
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >are these red finned sharks we're talking about? i have a pair and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >anything, they're the victims in my tank! their dorsal fins both have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >tears :( does anyone have any ideas how to fix this? there's no bites
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >taken out, they're just sort of torn, like ripped paper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >On Nov 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Sarah Harrison wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> I have had a shark i all the tanks i have kept and never had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> problem. I must have the nice ones :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Date: 11/01/04 19:15:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> "We have watched our shark many times and he has never attacked any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> fish in our tank."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>     :) That is what I said when I was told that my shark might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> the cause of my betta's fin problems.  Once the shark was gone, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> were the fin problems.  They don't do anything when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> watching, they know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6618 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                While I was student teaching last spring I had a class come into a teachable moment about referendums and same-gender marriage came up.  This was a 7th grade class.  I quickly changed the topic.  The rest of the day everybody wanted to talk about what was discussed in that class so I and the regular teacher had to do our best to keep everybody only on referendums.  I made the whole class say referendum until they started getting tired of it.  That was a fun day. :)  I wonder if they all still remember what a referendum is though!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Us teachers call this a teachable moment.. Use this to show her what happens when you over feed and do not careful or properly take care of them.. this will 1. Gain her knowledge of how to care for her fish properly and 2. show her how to problem solve and 3. See a positive outcome... it is only a bad thing if you make it a bad thing.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6619 From: Faithe Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: for Eric Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Eric,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have the exact same problem! I have 2 small frye that are actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            growing rather nicely and their Molly Mom. I will do another change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            on Friday. I am curious to learn more about getting rid of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            things. I assume you must have overfed because of the small frye?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thats exactly what I did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, eric douglas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <nicelvguy@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > crean with the water change. It seems to got ride of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can not go to drastic onm the water change. If anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I happened to notice lots of gross looking white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > heater off (i had the heater up too high i think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > too, I doubt it will help. Any suggestions? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > frustrated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Can someone tell me where is the safest place to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > with something. Although I probably welcomed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6620 From: Faithe Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: for Eric Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My two frye are about 3 wks old. so they are not that tiny anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Eric I will let you know what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, eric douglas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <nicelvguy@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the Raspboras and danios will not hurt the frys?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Raspboras and danios seem to love eating them! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have had a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > outbreaks in my tank when there are fry present and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I can't stir up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gravel but when I do and they are free floating for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a few minutes, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > brilliant raspboras and danios come over super
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > quickly to gobble them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > up. They're relatively small and peaceful (if zippy)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish, so you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > want to give them a shot :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:18 PM, eric douglas wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > crean with the water change. It seems to got ride
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > can not go to drastic onm the water change. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I happened to notice lots of gross looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > heater off (i had the heater up too high i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > too, I doubt it will help. Any suggestions? Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > frustrated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Can someone tell me where is the safest place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > with something. Although I probably welcomed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6621 From: Faithe Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: for Amalathea Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? mayb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You mean a zebra danio would eat those ugly white things? KEWEL I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have one lone one in my other tank Im going to send him right over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            there :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Raspboras and danios seem to love eating them! I have had a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > outbreaks in my tank when there are fry present and I can't stir
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gravel but when I do and they are free floating for a few minutes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > brilliant raspboras and danios come over super quickly to gobble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > up. They're relatively small and peaceful (if zippy) fish, so you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > want to give them a shot :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:18 PM, eric douglas wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > I have them also, it is because of overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > crean with the water change. It seems to got ride of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > lot of them, but I have small frys in the tank so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > can not go to drastic onm the water change. If anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > know and ideas on how to get rid of them without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > small fry. Shortly after introducing the Molly she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > overfeeding :(  anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I happened to notice lots of gross looking white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green tablet and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > heater off (i had the heater up too high i think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > water today (half the tank) and those friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > there. I had a long chat with the girl at Petco and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > gallon I have an infestation of snails as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > disenheartening.  Anyhow, the girl suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > too, I doubt it will help.  Any suggestions? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > frustrated. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Can someone tell me where is the safest place to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > with something.  Although I probably welcomed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Any insight would so greatly be appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Faithe :D
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6622 From: paul helms Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: HELP URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the parents should not really bother the fry. hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            everything works out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I still have to disagree i have also bred and raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > firemouth's. Whenever
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > babies are born into the tank they aren't touched.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > We think that the problem was the male, as everytime
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > he "advanced" to her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > she didn't want to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Also 1 of our test kits are brand new we only got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it a few weeks ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Date: 11/01/04 01:49:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > if you want to believe that they are community safe,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that is up to you. almost any fish can be raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a very small juvenile to adult size in a coimmunity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank, and while they may leave those raised with it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > alone, once they are no longer juveniles, they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > undoubtedly eat newly introduced fish. much like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cat may not eat your hamster because he knows that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they hamster is yours, but the second you bring home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > another one, it will be seen as food. i have raise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > d
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and sold 100's of firemouths, and while there may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > eceptions to the rule, they are not community safe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fish. to quote a few online sites....."Firemouths
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Angelfish are among the least aggressive of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cichlid family, but full-grown they have plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > attitude. This makes them very interesting to keep,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but can also cause conflict and though they may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the "King of the Tank," they may even be sometimes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > quite shy. "
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > as for 0 nitrates, it was just a recommendation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > help you out. test kits do go bad, if you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to make sure your kits are accurate, it is up to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > test strips do not show exact numbers, and while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > may be 10 ppm it may not show much color because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > first reading, typically, on them is 20 ppm. liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > test kits can have problems when not done 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > correctly. adding 1 more or less drops or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thoroughly mixing your chemicals between each test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > cause innacurate readings. i am not saying that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > are testing inaccurately or attempting to insult
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > but it does happen to all of us at some point. a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > healthy tank is not going to run at 0's across the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > board. with nothing for bacteria to consume, it wil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > die off and your tank will start a new cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sorry to disagree Paul but we have 2 master test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > kits (1 hagen and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > interpet) and all our stats are 0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Also a firemouth is classed as a community fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > have 1cm baby guppies in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > with our firemouth's and they don't touch them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > neither do they chase any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the fish. Infact our red finned shark chases them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > let them know who's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > boss. They were certainly not the original cause
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Date: 10/31/04 20:25:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] HELP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > URGENT!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > i recommend getting your water tested by a pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > shop,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > as nitrates being at 0 is highly unlikely, unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > tank is still cycling. in additiotn, a firemouth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > not belong in with community fish, and may be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > original cause of the ich. if she is chasing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > community fish, they may be getting stressed out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > causing them to get ick. the more fish that have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ick, the more it is breeding in the tank, making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > fish succeptible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- Sarah Harrison <sarah@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > We need some help people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Our 100 litre is the problem. We have just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > finished
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > treatment for whitespot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and all fish are clear apart from the clowns and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > couple of Mollies. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > for the last 24 hours our female firemouth has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > over exaggerated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > breathing her mouth wide open and her gills
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > moving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > really deeply. She has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > gone really dark, and she is just laying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > floor sometimes going onto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > her side. We tested the water and here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Am - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Nitrate - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Nitrite - 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > PH - 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > As you see water is perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > so any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > S & T
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > finish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > .




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6623 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, mine are regular apple snails.  They can live in cooler tanks although they are not as active at less that 74.  They do live much longer at 72-74.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            speaking of which, terry, are your snails similar to regular apple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            snails in that they live a lot longer in cold water set ups?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 1, 2004, at 7:13 PM, Shannon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  Since this members list is not available I coudlnt locate your addy I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  have some questions about your apple snails... thinking might want or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  need to add some or one to my tanks.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6624 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What are your questions?  You can post them here or my email is terri@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Shannon [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Since this members list is not available I coudlnt locate your addy I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have some questions about your apple snails... thinking might want or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            need to add some or one to my tanks.. shannon



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6625 From: eric douglas Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: for Eric Re: Newbie Here (white worm problem) neomatodes? maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have about 20 fyrs, but they are about 1 week old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            SO I am hesitating on doing anything major.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Eric

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My two frye are about 3 wks old. so they are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that tiny anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Eric I will let you know what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > douglas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > <nicelvguy@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the Raspboras and danios will not hurt the frys?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Raspboras and danios seem to love eating them! I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > have had a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > outbreaks in my tank when there are fry present
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > I can't stir up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > gravel but when I do and they are free floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a few minutes, my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > brilliant raspboras and danios come over super
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > quickly to gobble them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > up. They're relatively small and peaceful (if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > zippy)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > fish, so you might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > want to give them a shot :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:18 PM, eric douglas wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > HI,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > I have them also, it is because of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > overfeeding, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > have done a 10% water change for 4 days and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > crean with the water change. It seems to got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ride
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > lot of them, but I have small frys in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > can not go to drastic onm the water change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > know and ideas on how to get rid of them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > killing the frys please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Hi I am in a rush so I have to be brief.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > In my daughters newly set up 10 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Molly and her 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > small fry. Shortly after introducing the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > had the fry and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > noticed a popeye I added some salt and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > seemed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > to resolve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > itself. Well, since she had the fry we were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > overfeeding :( anyhow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > I happened to notice lots of gross looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > thread like worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > I went to the local Petco (boy did I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > something about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > these places) anyhow, he gave me a green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tablet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > said shut the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > heater off (i had the heater up too high i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > think as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > well) for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > and to not feed the fish for 3 days, well I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > and changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > water today (half the tank) and those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > friggin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > buggers are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > there. I had a long chat with the girl at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > she said I might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > never get rid of them ? Is this so? Im so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > disappointed in my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > gallon I have an infestation of snails as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Geez this is all so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > disenheartening. Anyhow, the girl
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > suggested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > aquarisol so I did that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > too, I doubt it will help. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > suggestions? Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > frustrated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Can someone tell me where is the safest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > plants? Through breeders? It seems all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > stores infest you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > with something. Although I probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > welcomed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > white worms (maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > neomotodes) with the warm tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > overfeeding.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Any insight would so greatly be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > appreciated!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Most Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            === message truncated ===



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6626 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks Terri IM wondering I have a zebra botia in my tank.. and would it be possible to add an apple snail of yours or would it be in danger.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, mine are regular apple snails.  They can live in cooler tanks although they are not as active at less that 74.  They do live much longer at 72-74.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6627 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can't go together.  Sorry but your fishy will eat the snail!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks Terri IM wondering I have a zebra botia in my tank.. and would it be possible to add an apple snail of yours or would it be in danger.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, mine are regular apple snails.  They can live in cooler tanks although they are not as active at less that 74.  They do live much longer at 72-74.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6628 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: New fish any suggestions??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today while looking at the goldfish in with the feeder goldfish was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a blue greyish fish with small dots and very poky top fins. I'm gonna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            post a picture in a few minutes under the folder MELANIE'S PICS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for any info. MELANIE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6629 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Picture sucks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the picture is horrible so after I finish dinner I will take a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            one. MELANIE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6630 From: Elyse Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Terri is right!  All Botias, Loaches and Puffer LUV snails.  They are like candy to them.  I have also found that both my Leporinus and Synodontis eat them up readily.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Elyse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can't go together.  Sorry but your fishy will eat the snail!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks Terri IM wondering I have a zebra botia in my tank.. and would it be possible to add an apple snail of yours or would it be in danger.... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, mine are regular apple snails.  They can live in cooler tanks although they are not as active at less that 74.  They do live much longer at 72-74.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6631 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am having a problem getting my ph down. Our tap water is high 8 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            9. I add vingear to the water to reduce the ph of each gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water I add. The ph of each gallon is 7. I have even tried the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bought ph down stuff and it does nothing either. I have three tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            One is tropical which includes Bala sharks, angelfish, corys, white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clouds, pleco, and snails. One of the other tanks is a betta. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            last one is goldfish, pleco, and snail.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the ph down?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6632 From: Ashley Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: (white worm problem)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All this white worm talk has jinxed me! I turned the filter off to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            turtle tank (which has feeder endlers in it with fry of course) and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            low and behold what do I see this evening??? Those WHITE WORMS!!! I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            moving everyone over to my 55 tomorrow so I will thoroughly clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            everything and keep the fish separate for a while. I do overfeed I bet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with my turtles and such.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Any suggestions on cleaning live plants?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ashley






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, eric douglas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <nicelvguy@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have about 20 fyrs, but they are about 1 week old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > SO I am hesitating on doing anything major.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Eric
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6633 From: Ashley Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have actually bought Brimm in feeder goldfish tanks before. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            look a lot like cichlids (ex: firemouth, convicts etc.) and they do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            really well. I couldn't tell by that pic what you might have though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "mommy2acdhsurvivor" <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the picture is horrible so after I finish dinner I will take a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > one. MELANIE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6634 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You know that what I was thinking he looked like but couldn't think of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the name. Hehehe I paid 0.25 cents for him. Ok for a new question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            would he get along ok in a tropical tank with some feeder guppies 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            danios and a small catfish (the kind you catch when you fish not like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a store bought kind he's about an inch) Thanks


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I have actually bought Brimm in feeder goldfish tanks before. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > look a lot like cichlids (ex: firemouth, convicts etc.) and they do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > really well. I couldn't tell by that pic what you might have though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "mommy2acdhsurvivor" <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the picture is horrible so after I finish dinner I will take a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > one. MELANIE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6635 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            oh that stuff happens all the time.. on my very first day of school my very first class this boy looked at me in the hall and said do you know why Aaron carter is gay... and who was right there standing listening the principal.. i about puked.. i had no idea what to say... and then i went on talking about how some words have different meanings and how i am sure he is very "happy" about his success and then we detoured into stuff or questions that should be brought up to your parents and or siblings... AKA appropriateness for school of course that was like 4 years ago and things weren't as open even as they are today and i was new and so scared i would say the wrong thing... anyhow.. i love teachable moments just have to be careful i don't distract myself too much... so Patrick did you go into the teaching field or decided to do something else... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                While I was student teaching last spring I had a class come into a teachable moment about referendums and same-gender marriage came up.  This was a 7th grade class.  I quickly changed the topic.  The rest of the day everybody wanted to talk about what was discussed in that class so I and the regular teacher had to do our best to keep everybody only on referendums.  I made the whole class say referendum until they started getting tired of it.  That was a fun day. :)  I wonder if they all still remember what a referendum is though!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6636 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: he's some kind of cichlid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well by looking at some pictures I couldn't find any excatly like him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but he is definatly some type of cichlid. Thanks for the help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            identifing him. I have the lights out he's a little scared right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WHen he starts coming out more I'll take a better picture.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6637 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Ummmmm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Our bettas both have ripped fins and I thought they were starting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            be agressive to each other, but as it turns out, our solitary
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            angelfish (about four inches) has laid eggs all along the intake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            valve on the filter and is being VERY aggressive toward the bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and guppies. Sooo...I never wanted to breed angelfish. I didn't even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            WANT angelfish at first. We had a very small one inch angelfish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the tank for a couple of days last week, but it died. These eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can't possibly be fertile, can they? ACK!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6638 From: Allisa Chilton Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Live plants-Pet Solutions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am interested in purchasing live plants for my aquarium. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a local source, other than Wal-Mart. I fear bringing in disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with their plants. I am looking into mail-order. Does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any experience ordering plants and or fish from Pet Soultions? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            info or sources for healthy live plants would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Allisa Chilton
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            CTMH Independent Consultant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6639 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've gotten a whole bunch of live plants from various ebay store and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            done well with all of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 2, 2004, at 9:38 PM, Allisa Chilton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am interested in purchasing live plants for my aquarium.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > have a local source, other than Wal-Mart.  I fear bringing in disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with their plants.  I am looking into mail-order.  Does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > any experience ordering plants and or fish from Pet Soultions?  Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > info or sources for healthy live plants would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Allisa Chilton
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > CTMH Independent Consultant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Service.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6640 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So this i what I did... my LFS sold me 2 killifish that were the gardneri variety told me they were males but they were females and meaning that they are colorless apparently but one died on the way home so I took it back go all my money back and they gave me like 100 snails and a free plant... I wanted the snails cause I thought it would be a nice treat for the botia.. so I put some snails in each of my aquariums hoping that atleast in the bettas ones they would multiply.. WILL THEY>.. there is just a bettas in each of them... so then I can take snails out of them and put them in the tank to feed to the botia... is this a good plan or not.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Terri is right!  All Botias, Loaches and Puffer LUV snails.  They are like candy to them.  I have also found that both my Leporinus and Synodontis eat them up readily.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Elyse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6641 From: bryants4god Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.aquaticplantdepot.com  I have ordered from them, great healthy plants, fast shipping & reasonable prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Allisa Chilton [mailto:ctmh@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Live plants-Pet Solutions


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am interested in purchasing live plants for my aquarium.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have a local source, other than Wal-Mart.  I fear bringing in disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            with their plants.  I am looking into mail-order.  Does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            any experience ordering plants and or fish from Pet Soultions?  Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            info or sources for healthy live plants would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Allisa Chilton
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            CTMH Independent Consultant





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6642 From: Captain Kidd Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is something I have tried and have let the water sit for 3 months (in a jug) and the ph did not change. I use PH down to get the pH the level I want then I add some Tetra easy balance, this has a pH buffer in it and it keep my ph at 7.0 for 3 months in a jug.  Now my pH out of the tap is like 7.6, so I decided not to go this way, but with your higher pH it might be worth a try.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: wolf1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] PH Problem


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am having a problem getting my ph down. Our tap water is high 8 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            9. I add vingear to the water to reduce the ph of each gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water I add. The ph of each gallon is 7. I have even tried the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bought ph down stuff and it does nothing either. I have three tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            One is tropical which includes Bala sharks, angelfish, corys, white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clouds, pleco, and snails. One of the other tanks is a betta. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            last one is goldfish, pleco, and snail.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the ph down?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tammy





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6643 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Wanted to let everyone know that I did post notices at different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            websites and on bulletenboard about the goldfish. No takers yet. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cloudyness of the goldfish tank has gotten better. Back to doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water changes once a week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But still need help with ph.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Robb"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <robbrouse@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Or maybe the LFS will just flush them. Yes I've seen this happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > They do not want to set up a Q tank and will not take the chance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > killing there stock, they then just flush them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I workd a while (like 8 years) for a mom and pop shop and we had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this done 3 times and as sad as it was rhey just dumped the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I fugure who ever bought the fish needs to deal with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > A suggestion for a fish guy that says they won't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > the fish, leave the fish on their counter. You won't get money >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > for them, but I guarentee they will sell them quickly. Probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > > to somebody with a 5 gallon tank...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6644 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tammy, try offering them to schools, childrens hospitals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            veterenarian offices, and some businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6645 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't have a tank to offer them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Tammy, try offering them to schools, childrens hospitals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > veterenarian offices, and some businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6646 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Ummmmm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            No, your angelfish eggs cannot be fertile.  If the smaller angelfish you had in there last week were a bit larger then yes, possibly that one could have fertilized the eggs if they were laid at that time.  But a one inch angel is far too young to be mature, even if it is somewhat stunted.  If your Bettas are two males, they may have now grown to the point that they are more aggressive towards each other and they now could be ripping each other's fins.  Although, your angelfish is not to be counted out in this respect as she will certainly become very aggressive at this point, in guarding her eggs.  Might as well clean the eggs off the intake valve as the longer they are there, the longer she will remain aggressive.  And, even with the eggs' removal it may take her a while to realize they are gone.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6647 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I got my degree in secondary ed History and I am working on secondary government this semester and start a semester of grad classes in teaching history in Spring.  I am looking forward to a history class, 15 hours a week of political science is making me go crazy. :)  I hope I get a job teaching next year since I will have a second certification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              oh that stuff happens all the time.. on my very first day of school my very first class this boy looked at me in the hall and said do you know why Aaron carter is gay... and who was right there standing listening the principal.. i about puked.. i had no idea what to say... and then i went on talking about how some words have different meanings and how i am sure he is very "happy" about his success and then we detoured into stuff or questions that should be brought up to your parents and or siblings... AKA appropriateness for school of course that was like 4 years ago and things weren't as open even as they are today and i was new and so scared i would say the wrong thing... anyhow.. i love teachable moments just have to be careful i don't distract myself too much... so Patrick did you go into the teaching field or decided to do something else... shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6648 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I highly recommend aquariumgarden.com.  Not because I have bought from him, I just know the guy from another forum and a lot of people on various forums have mentioned that they have good service.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But to tell the truth, I would try my best to find a fish store that sells plants.  Not the lwm (local w-mart), and not because of diseases.  Diseases are easy to get rid of by dipping the plant in bleach or strong salt water for a few seconds.  The reason is that I don't know what the plants they sell are.  A lot of them look like house plants stuck under water (peace lillies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am interested in purchasing live plants for my aquarium.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have a local source, other than Wal-Mart.  I fear bringing in disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with their plants.  I am looking into mail-order.  Does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                any experience ordering plants and or fish from Pet Soultions?  Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                info or sources for healthy live plants would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Allisa Chilton
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                CTMH Independent Consultant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6649 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                might take some time.. ppl go on vacation and read their mail at different times... never know someone new might join the freecycle and want them.. i would repost about ever 2 weeks Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wanted to let everyone know that I did post notices at different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                websites and on bulletenboard about the goldfish. No takers yet. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cloudyness of the goldfish tank has gotten better. Back to doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water changes once a week.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But still need help with ph.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6650 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you don't offer them in a tank just the fish... but im thinking it might be hard cause i know most docs and business have ppl that come in and take care of their fish cause they just don't have time or knowledge to do it... and schools might be ok but most tanks are kinda small there... but you just never know.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't have a tank to offer them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6651 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Much luck to you.... So do you think you will have a tank in your room... I know it doesnt have to do with the same subject but still could be fun... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I got my degree in secondary ed History and I am working on secondary government this semester and start a semester of grad classes in teaching history in Spring.  I am looking forward to a history class, 15 hours a week of political science is making me go crazy. :)  I hope I get a job teaching next year since I will have a second certification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6652 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Live plants-online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've ordered from them quite a few times. No minimum order and shipping is only $10. One order I received was missing two plants, I emailed them and was given the option of credit or the plants. They sent not only the missing plants but a few extras as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.aquaticplantdepot.com  I have ordered from them, great healthy plants, fast shipping & reasonable prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6653 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will name the fish after historical figures. :)  I have already been looking for excuses to give to the principal.  It will relieve stress during state exams and improve NCLB scores or something like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 4 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Much luck to you.... So do you think you will have a tank in your room... I know it doesnt have to do with the same subject but still could be fun... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6654 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: A little better pics uploaded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I put them in my folder it's called melanie's pics it's the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  couple of pictures. the fish is actually a bluish grey his color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wouldn't show up right on the photo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6655 From: Christina Chapman Date: 11/2/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have ordered from Aquatic Plant Depot as well, and I can't say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  anything but GREAT things about them. I have ordered from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  www.azgardens.com in the past, but shipping is high for a plant only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  order (overnight only).... And personally, the plants I got from APD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  were better. But I'd recommend both places, APD more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6656 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  how many of us in here are going to school to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  teachers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Much luck to you.... So do you think you will have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tank in your room... I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > know it doesnt have to do with the same subject but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > still could be fun...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I got my degree in secondary ed History and I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > working on secondary
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > government this semester and start a semester of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > grad classes in teaching history
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in Spring. I am looking forward to a history class,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 15 hours a week of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > political science is making me go crazy. :) I hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I get a job teaching next year
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > since I will have a second certification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6657 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if you stop adding water with a high ph to the tank so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  often, it will stabalize at a lower level. weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water changes with water at a ph of 8 will never let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you keep it down. 8 is not bad either, a bit high but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  not going to harm the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Captain Kidd <captainkidd@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > This is something I have tried and have let the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water sit for 3 months (in a jug) and the ph did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > change. I use PH down to get the pH the level I want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > then I add some Tetra easy balance, this has a pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > buffer in it and it keep my ph at 7.0 for 3 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > in a jug. Now my pH out of the tap is like 7.6, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I decided not to go this way, but with your higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > pH it might be worth a try.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: wolf1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] PH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I am having a problem getting my ph down. Our tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water is high 8 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 9. I add vingear to the water to reduce the ph of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > each gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > water I add. The ph of each gallon is 7. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > even tried the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bought ph down stuff and it does nothing either. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have three tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > One is tropical which includes Bala sharks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > angelfish, corys, white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > clouds, pleco, and snails. One of the other tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is a betta. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > last one is goldfish, pleco, and snail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > down?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6658 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, I am a certified teacher teaching this year (im elementary age preferred)   and getting my masters but I think most knew that... and then we found out that Patrick is... does this mean you are too Paul.. if so what age and or subject....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  how many of us in here are going to school to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  teachers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6659 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, her water is at 8.5 to 9.0 so is that to high for the fish... her pH test only goes to 7.6 and she doesnt have access to get another higher range one till her LFS gets one in.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if you stop adding water with a high ph to the tank so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  often, it will stabalize at a lower level.  weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  water changes with water at a ph of 8 will never let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you keep it down.  8 is not bad either, a bit high but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  not going to harm the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6660 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well this stinks.. i was thinking that sine they are so big and mine is so little that he wouldn't do anything to it.. what do you think he would do just keep pestering it till it died.. shanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Can't go together.  Sorry but your fishy will eat the snail!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6661 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tammy,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The PH should be fine for the fish you mentioned if they have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  acclimatized. My tap water measured a PH of 8.4 and for the past couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  years I had more problems trying to adjust the PH then I had when keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the PH as 8.4. Stability if more important then PH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You get phosphate based PH buffers that buffer your tank water to what ever
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  PH you want but they can be a disaster if you have a well planted setup. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  phosphate in the buffer is I think not the form that can be utilized by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  algae. I tried it some time ago for my Angels breeding tank and it worked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  well except for initial cloudiness.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Sent: 03 November 2004 00:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >I am having a problem getting my ph down. Our tap water is high 8 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >9. I add vingear to the water to reduce the ph of each gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >water I add. The ph of each gallon is 7. I have even tried the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >bought ph down stuff and it does nothing either. I have three tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >One is tropical which includes Bala sharks, angelfish, corys, white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >clouds, pleco, and snails. One of the other tanks is a betta. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >last one is goldfish, pleco, and snail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the ph down?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6662 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tammy,  Have to agree the a pH of 9.0 is a bit too high for most tropical fish, unless you're keeping Lake Tanganyika Cichlids. I presume you're looking for an alternate method to lower the pH besides using vinegar.  Water with a high pH usually is high in hardness inducing disolved solids, especially of calcium and magnesium ions, which buffer the water, making it hard to lower the pH and have it remain stabile.  One way to reduce this buffering capacity is to use ion-exchange water softener pillows in a filter, which will exchange sodium ions for the calcium and/or magnesium ions, making the water somewhat softer.  With the water being softer, it is now much easier to lower the pH and to stabilize it at where you adjust it to.  As you will be needing to make weekly water changes (at least you should), this water softening must be done in a separate container such as an old tank or even a plastic bucket or garbage pail, with adjusting of the pH, and use the water from there.   You cannot use this method with such a filter hooked up directly to your tank, as everytime you change water the pH and hardness will drastically rise until the water softener catches up with the hardness and you can again lower the pH; bouncing the pH like this with every water change would be drastic for the fish, which need a more stabile environment which a pre-adjusting bucket/reservoir can provide. Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6663 From: Ashley Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I personally wouldn't put him in with small guppies. He may try to eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  them. I would keep most any cichlid or brimm in their own aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They grow really large as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "mommy2acdhsurvivor" <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > You know that what I was thinking he looked like but couldn't think of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the name. Hehehe I paid 0.25 cents for him. Ok for a new question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > would he get along ok in a tropical tank with some feeder guppies 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > danios and a small catfish (the kind you catch when you fish not like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a store bought kind he's about an inch) Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6664 From: Ashley Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: A little better pics uploaded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Looks like a brimm. They seriously are built just like cichlids. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wind up in the large ponds used to grow and breed goldfish and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  are scooped up and sent to pet shops for feeders. They are very large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish either way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "mommy2acdhsurvivor" <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I put them in my folder it's called melanie's pics it's the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > couple of pictures. the fish is actually a bluish grey his color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wouldn't show up right on the photo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6665 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Many of them already have tanks, usually sparsley populated. One
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  teacher I know has a fish tank which was empty all last year. When I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  asked her why, she said that she hadn't gotten around to buying fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  on her budget...so I gave her a pint jar full of guppy fry and my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fish tank water. The kids loved watching them develop into full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sized guppies with pretty tails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I don't have a tank to offer them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6666 From: John Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Whisper Filter Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was given a Whisper 20-40. As I cleaned it and set it up I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  discovered that the thing leaks from where the impeller motor goes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  into the body of the filter. There is an o-ring that I assume should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  create a water tight seal(?). Is there any type of safe lubrication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  that I need to put on the o-ring? Also, is this a common problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  these filters. From the mineral deposits on this filter, I assume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  this has leaked for a while. Any suggestions about how to fix this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I called Tetra and the guy wasn't any help. He suggested replacing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the o-ring which he said was available in most any store. I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  find one in the 4 stores I visited yesterday. Besides, the present o-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ring looks good and still seems to be as "elastic' as I would expect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it's just not making a good seal. So, I'm looking for any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ideas...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6667 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i am going for 5 th grade, but in california there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  no degree in secondary education. here you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  get a BA in something first, Generally in Liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Studies, and then there is a credential program. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  can't even sign up for the credential program until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you have the BA. i have doen my classroom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  observations, and will have the BA in 6 onths, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  can do 9 months of student teaching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Well, I am a certified teacher teaching this year
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (im elementary age
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > preferred) and getting my masters but I think most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > knew that... and then we found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > out that Patrick is... does this mean you are too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Paul.. if so what age and or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > subject....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > how many of us in here are going to school to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > teachers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6668 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I lived and taught in cali for two years.. totally different from Oregon.. in Oregon they do something sorta like that but they combine it so you cant get your degree till you have finished both so i guess same outcome different method... usually takes 5 years.... and then in Oregon to keep your license you have to have your masters in 5 years.. or they will not renew you... on a good note though.. in cali you don't have to take any of the tests that most states require... i had to take and pass 6 tests costing over 2000 dollars versus one test in cali the CBEST for 40 bucks... if you plan on staying in cali you got it made if not your screwed lol... i just missed the rain and atmosphere of Oregon too much had to leave cali... best of luck to you... we need a lot more man teachers out there... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  i am going for 5 th grade, but in california there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  no degree in secondary education.  here you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  get a BA in something first, Generally in Liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Studies, and then there is a credential program.  You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  can't even sign up for the credential program until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you have the BA.  i have doen my classroom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  observations, and will have the BA in 6 onths, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  can do 9 months of student teaching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6669 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here in TN, you get a degree in secondary ed with a subject area.  The reason is that to get a degree in history, you have to have a minor.  The secondary history major gives you most of the classes needed for the history major and the education classes take the place of the minor.  The only classes I didn't take that were needed for the regular history degree was three or six hours of Spanish.  Surprisingly, Spanish isn't required for education even though I will probably need to know it a little at some point with all the Mexicans moving to my area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nine months of student teaching?  That is a whole year!  I only had to take one semester to student teach last spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To keep fish in this, how do you plan to get a tank in your classroom? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i am going for 5 th grade, but in california there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    no degree in secondary education.  here you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    get a BA in something first, Generally in Liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Studies, and then there is a credential program.  You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can't even sign up for the credential program until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you have the BA.  i have doen my classroom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    observations, and will have the BA in 6 onths, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can do 9 months of student teaching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6670 From: shortlid Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Whisper Filter Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You should be able to get the owners manual from Tetra? It states to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    use regular Petrolem Jelly a.k.a. (Vasoline) on the o-ring and make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sure it is roted all the way into place!! Most parts are availiable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    at Petco or PetsMart?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "John"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <jayemsr@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I was given a Whisper 20-40. As I cleaned it and set it up I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > discovered that the thing leaks from where the impeller motor goes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into the body of the filter. There is an o-ring that I assume should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > create a water tight seal(?). Is there any type of safe lubrication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that I need to put on the o-ring? Also, is this a common problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > these filters. From the mineral deposits on this filter, I assume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this has leaked for a while. Any suggestions about how to fix this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I called Tetra and the guy wasn't any help. He suggested replacing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the o-ring which he said was available in most any store. I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > find one in the 4 stores I visited yesterday. Besides, the present
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    o-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ring looks good and still seems to be as "elastic' as I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    expect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I think it's just not making a good seal. So, I'm looking for any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ideas...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6671 From: Nimish Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Depends,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    PH was mentioned between 8 and 9?? an accurate PH would be a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thing to know then to jump on conclusions to change it and if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    change is needed. at 8.2 one would not need to change it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Tammy, Have to agree the a pH of 9.0 is a bit too high for most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish, unless you're keeping Lake Tanganyika Cichlids. I presume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you're looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for an alternate method to lower the pH besides using vinegar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Water with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > high pH usually is high in hardness inducing disolved solids,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    especially of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > calcium and magnesium ions, which buffer the water, making it hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to lower the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and have it remain stabile. One way to reduce this buffering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    capacity is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > use ion-exchange water softener pillows in a filter, which will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exchange sodium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ions for the calcium and/or magnesium ions, making the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    somewhat softer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > With the water being softer, it is now much easier to lower the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stabilize it at where you adjust it to. As you will be needing to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    make weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > water changes (at least you should), this water softening must be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    done in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > separate container such as an old tank or even a plastic bucket or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    garbage pail,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with adjusting of the pH, and use the water from there. You cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    use this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > method with such a filter hooked up directly to your tank, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    everytime you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > change water the pH and hardness will drastically rise until the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water softener
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > catches up with the hardness and you can again lower the pH;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bouncing the pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > like this with every water change would be drastic for the fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which need a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more stabile environment which a pre-adjusting bucket/reservoir can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6672 From: bryants4god Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just did a search on the snail forum and found this information posted just today.  This post was made by a reputable member and breeder that I trust so if you want to try some of my snails with your zebra that would be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    *************************I like the loach idea I keep loaches in many of my tanks, and they do a great job A cute little loach to keep with snails is Botia striata (often called the Zebra Botia or Zebra loach). It doesn't get very big, and does not bother my snails at all. I just had a clutch of gold canas hatch in my 75 that has several of these guys, they could care less. Interestingly enough though, they make short work of pond snails and newly hatched brown ramshorns, yet they ignore baby brigs and canas. I mention this particular loach because I often see it in places like PetSmart, so it may be easy to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good luck with the nasty leeches, you have gotten all the yuckies critters with those wilds, WOW!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    **********************************************************************************************************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 3:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well this stinks.. i was thinking that sine they are so big and mine is so little that he wouldn't do anything to it.. what do you think he would do just keep pestering it till it died.. shanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't go together.  Sorry but your fishy will eat the snail!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6673 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Picture sucks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok I'll keep that in mind although they are just feeder guppies. So I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    guess that's what there breed for. (food)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I personally wouldn't put him in with small guppies. He may try to eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them. I would keep most any cichlid or brimm in their own aquarium.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > They grow really large as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6674 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Agreed:  Just re-read the post saying "between 8 and 9".  If the pH is nearer 8.0 or 8.2 that should be tolerable, even if its at the high end of their comfort zone.  Best to test it first using a wide range test kit.  Pond Care (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) makes a decent liquid wide range (pH 5.0 to pH 9.0) test kit that's quite accurate, even indicating over 9.0.  It retails somewhere around $6.00.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6675 From: Elyse Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sorry, but I think that is poor advice.  Loaches and Botias are notorious for their love of snails.   I have 3 Zebra loaches among my collection and they READILY eat the pond and other nuisance snails I feed.  These are all small snails, larger ones would probably be nipped at an harassed but not as easily consumed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: bryants4god [mailto:bryants4god@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 11:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just did a search on the snail forum and found this information posted just today.  This post was made by a reputable member and breeder that I trust so if you want to try some of my snails with your zebra that would be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    *************************I like the loach idea I keep loaches in many of my tanks, and they do a great job A cute little loach to keep with snails is Botia striata (often called the Zebra Botia or Zebra loach). It doesn't get very big, and does not bother my snails at all. I just had a clutch of gold canas hatch in my 75 that has several of these guys, they could care less. Interestingly enough though, they make short work of pond snails and newly hatched brown ramshorns, yet they ignore baby brigs and canas. I mention this particular loach because I often see it in places like PetSmart, so it may be easy to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good luck with the nasty leeches, you have gotten all the yuckies critters with those wilds, WOW!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    **********************************************************************************************************************************************

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 3:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well this stinks.. i was thinking that sine they are so big and mine is so little that he wouldn't do anything to it.. what do you think he would do just keep pestering it till it died.. shanon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't go together.  Sorry but your fishy will eat the snail!



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6676 From: Elyse Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Whisper Filter Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have several Whisper filters and have never encountered that problem. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know the part you are talking about, but none of mine leak. Perhaps you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    could try using a ring of Vaseline around the O ring area to create a better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    seal?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: John [mailto:jayemsr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 8:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Whisper Filter Question




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was given a Whisper 20-40. As I cleaned it and set it up I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    discovered that the thing leaks from where the impeller motor goes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    into the body of the filter. There is an o-ring that I assume should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    create a water tight seal(?). Is there any type of safe lubrication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that I need to put on the o-ring? Also, is this a common problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    these filters. From the mineral deposits on this filter, I assume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this has leaked for a while. Any suggestions about how to fix this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I called Tetra and the guy wasn't any help. He suggested replacing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the o-ring which he said was available in most any store. I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    find one in the 4 stores I visited yesterday. Besides, the present o-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ring looks good and still seems to be as "elastic' as I would expect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think it's just not making a good seal. So, I'm looking for any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ideas...












                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6677 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    well that  is cool... yesterday i added like 100 snails that were in the tanks at petsmart to feed him i felt sorry he wasn't getting his staple of snail and he ate them all cant find one.. and cant find any shells either.. do they normally eat the shells... they were all tiny like pencil eraser and lead size... i would love to try an apple snail or 2 i have 20 gallon how many do you think I could use... also do they work in betta tanks.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just did a search on the snail forum and found this information posted just today.  This post was made by a reputable member and breeder that I trust so if you want to try some of my snails with your zebra that would be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6678 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there is no problem in my area with that. teachers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pretty much have free will in that. in fact one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    teacher even had a caman (sp) (like a 3 foot alligator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with a small mouth) that was kept in a cage at all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    times in his room for about 20 years. i would not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    personaly be comfortable with that, and don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    he got away with it, but as long as a tank is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    taken out of your budget it is ok. i wish that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    could get a BA in secondary, but they don't do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that way anymore. ba then credential. the liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    studies ba gets you prepped for the certification, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there are also 3 exams as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Here in TN, you get a degree in secondary ed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with a subject area. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > reason is that to get a degree in history, you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to have a minor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > secondary history major gives you most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > classes needed for the history
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > major and the education classes take the place of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the minor. The only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > classes I didn't take that were needed for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > regular history degree was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > three or six hours of Spanish. Surprisingly,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Spanish isn't required for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > education even though I will probably need to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it a little at some point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with all the Mexicans moving to my area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nine months of student teaching? That is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > whole year! I only had to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > take one semester to student teach last spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To keep fish in this, how do you plan to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank in your classroom?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > i am going for 5 th grade, but in california there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > no degree in secondary education. here you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get a BA in something first, Generally in Liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Studies, and then there is a credential program.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can't even sign up for the credential program until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you have the BA. i have doen my classroom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > observations, and will have the BA in 6 onths, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can do 9 months of student teaching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6679 From: paul helms Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that must have been a while ago shannon, because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    only thing that c best entitles you to now is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    substitute teaching. you must pass the cset (which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    given in 4 parts) as well as an exit exam for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    credential.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I lived and taught in cali for two years.. totally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > different from Oregon.. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oregon they do something sorta like that but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > combine it so you cant get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your degree till you have finished both so i guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > same outcome different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > method... usually takes 5 years.... and then in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oregon to keep your license you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have to have your masters in 5 years.. or they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not renew you... on a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > note though.. in cali you don't have to take any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the tests that most states
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > require... i had to take and pass 6 tests costing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over 2000 dollars versus one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > test in cali the CBEST for 40 bucks... if you plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on staying in cali you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it made if not your screwed lol... i just missed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > rain and atmosphere of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oregon too much had to leave cali... best of luck to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you... we need a lot more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > man teachers out there... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > i am going for 5 th grade, but in california there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > no degree in secondary education. here you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get a BA in something first, Generally in Liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Studies, and then there is a credential program.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can't even sign up for the credential program until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you have the BA. i have doen my classroom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > observations, and will have the BA in 6 onths, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can do 9 months of student teaching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6680 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: The fish I couldn't identify is a flower horn...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Today at the pet store I found fish just like the one I bought for 25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cents in the feeder goldfish tank. I about crocked when the lady said
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    those fish cost $12.75 a piece. I told her if she could order an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    albino clawed frog I'd trade her. I have an albino and a regular one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but the albino eats everything and has doubled in size. =:O)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6681 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 11/6/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Saturday November 6, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6682 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well i fully trust Terri.. she raises tons of those little critters... and Loaches and botiasa are very different in their aggression and size.. my loach doesnt do anything but hang out on his own.. yes he eats the snail in the tank but none are of any size.. just pencil lead size... also her apple snails are like giangtic.. you should check out her web site it is way cool... got me interested in something that i have always disliked... way to go Terri.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sorry, but I think that is poor advice.  Loaches and Botias are notorious for their love of snails.   I have 3 Zebra loaches among my collection and they READILY eat the pond and other nuisance snails I feed.  These are all small snails, larger ones would probably be nipped at an harassed but not as easily consumed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6683 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Newbie - teachable moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oddly it was just issued to me in August of 03 at the time i couldn't find any of my test scores cause i had just moved and stuff was everywhere and they said i didn't even need them and since I have been in cali when i took the CBEST cause I was there for my first 3 years of undergrad they were able to find it(the CBEST) and I was on my way.. I was like totally shocked that it was all I needed... I applied for it in Dec of 02 and took 6 freaking months to get my license... I was on an emergency one before that cause I had got a job.. maybe it is like a new rule then rather than an old rule... I don't know Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that must have been a while ago Shannon, because the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    only thing that c best entitles you to now is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    substitute teaching.  you must pass the cset (which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    given in 4 parts) as well as an exit exam for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    credential.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I lived and taught in cali for two years.. totally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > different from Oregon.. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oregon they do something sorta like that but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > combine it so you cant get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > your degree till you have finished both so i guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > same outcome different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > method... usually takes 5 years.... and then in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oregon to keep your license you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have to have your masters in 5 years.. or they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not renew you... on a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > note though.. in cali you don't have to take any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the tests that most states
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > require... i had to take and pass 6 tests costing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over 2000 dollars versus one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > test in cali the CBEST for 40 bucks... if you plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > on staying in cali you got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it made if not your screwed lol... i just missed the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > rain and atmosphere of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oregon too much had to leave cali... best of luck to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you... we need a lot more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > man teachers out there... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > i am going for 5 th grade, but in california there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > no degree in secondary education.  here you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get a BA in something first, Generally in Liberal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Studies, and then there is a credential program.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can't even sign up for the credential program until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you have the BA.  i have doen my classroom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > observations, and will have the BA in 6 onths, so i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can do 9 months of student teaching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6684 From: XanGo Philippines Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I guys, new here. Joed is my name and I love fishes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6685 From: jim Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Whisper Filter Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      inspect it very very closely , use a bright light, all the vaseline
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      at Wal-Mart wont help if there is a tiny crack in the plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      housing, if you do find something , plug it with superglue

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "John"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <jayemsr@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I was given a Whisper 20-40. As I cleaned it and set it up I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > discovered that the thing leaks from where the impeller motor goes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > into the body of the filter. There is an o-ring that I assume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > create a water tight seal(?). Is there any type of safe lubrication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I need to put on the o-ring? Also, is this a common problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > these filters. From the mineral deposits on this filter, I assume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > this has leaked for a while. Any suggestions about how to fix this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I called Tetra and the guy wasn't any help. He suggested replacing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > the o-ring which he said was available in most any store. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > find one in the 4 stores I visited yesterday. Besides, the present
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      o-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ring looks good and still seems to be as "elastic' as I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      expect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think it's just not making a good seal. So, I'm looking for any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ideas...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6686 From: Elyse Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shannon:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was in no way bashing Terri.  Terri knows TONS about snail keeping, and I respect her knowledge completely.  In fact, she is the one who I purchased my beloved Purple, Pink and Blue snails from about 4 months ago.  I have watched them grow to a very nice size and I have been successfully raising snails every since.  In the past month I have been blessed with EIGHT egg clutches.  2 have recently hatched and I am thrilled to say they were ALL PURPLES!!!  My snails live happily in their own 29 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Fish and snail keeping are VERY different.  And, compatibilities are learned best from trial and error.  You are totally right, Loaches and Botias are different in their aggression, however, we were discussing their appetite and compatibility with snails.  My Loaches, Botias and others live separately in a 55 gallon (with other more aggressive fish) where they DEVOUR all the pest snails I pull from the tanks where I work.  Additionally, these fish are considered Semi-aggressive.  Even a large snail would probably be nipped at and harassed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To answer you other question, the snails do great with betas as long as they are fed and kept in a container that has a lid.  Otherwise they can and will crawl right out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My advice was intended only to help, as I have a bunch of my own experience in fish and snail keeping.  If it was taken any other way, you were mistaken.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 3:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well i fully trust Terri.. she raises tons of those little critters... and Loaches and botiasa are very different in their aggression and size.. my loach doesnt do anything but hang out on his own.. yes he eats the snail in the tank but none are of any size.. just pencil lead size... also her apple snails are like giangtic.. you should check out her web site it is way cool... got me interested in something that i have always disliked... way to go Terri.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am sorry, but I think that is poor advice.  Loaches and Botias are notorious for their love of snails.   I have 3 Zebra loaches among my collection and they READILY eat the pond and other nuisance snails I feed.  These are all small snails, larger ones would probably be nipped at an harassed but not as easily consumed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6687 From: bryants4god Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse and Shannon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for differing on this and still staying nice to me LOL, refreshing on a list I must say!   The info I posted yesterday came from someone I trust, she did say her Zebra's eat pest snails shell and all.  I have oranda's in a snail tank and they have cleaned out the pest snails and they leave my brig snails alone.  Shannon do you have something else to put the snails in just in case the loach your Zebra does try to eat them?  I think it would be okay if I sent you already 1/2 grown or even full grown snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse -- are you looking for a home for any of those purples?  Happy 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 2:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well i fully trust Terri.. she raises tons of those little critters... and Loaches and botiasa are very different in their aggression and size.. my loach doesnt do anything but hang out on his own.. yes he eats the snail in the tank but none are of any size.. just pencil lead size... also her apple snails are like giangtic.. you should check out her web site it is way cool... got me interested in something that i have always disliked... way to go Terri.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am sorry, but I think that is poor advice.  Loaches and Botias are notorious for their love of snails.   I have 3 Zebra loaches among my collection and they READILY eat the pond and other nuisance snails I feed.  These are all small snails, larger ones would probably be nipped at an harassed but not as easily consumed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6688 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's cool.. now worries... i would love some for my bettas tanks... shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shannon:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was in no way bashing Terri.  Terri knows TONS about snail keeping, and I respect her knowledge completely.  In fact, she is the one who I purchased my beloved Purple, Pink and Blue snails from about 4 months ago.  I have watched them grow to a very nice size and I have been successfully raising snails every since.  In the past month I have been blessed with EIGHT egg clutches.  2 have recently hatched and I am thrilled to say they were ALL PURPLES!!!  My snails live happily in their own 29 gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Fish and snail keeping are VERY different.  And, compatibilities are learned best from trial and error.  You are totally right, Loaches and Botias are different in their aggression, however, we were discussing their appetite and compatibility with snails.  My Loaches, Botias and others live separately in a 55 gallon (with other more aggressive fish) where they DEVOUR all the pest snails I pull from the tanks where I work.  Additionally, these fish are considered Semi-aggressive.  Even a large snail would probably be nipped at and harassed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To answer you other question, the snails do great with betas as long as they are fed and kept in a container that has a lid.  Otherwise they can and will crawl right out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My advice was intended only to help, as I have a bunch of my own experience in fish and snail keeping.  If it was taken any other way, you were mistaken.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6689 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yea I have 5 betta tanks now... was thinking of putting them in there if the my master tank didn't work out.. i feed that botia so much and he is so docile i cant imagine him going after a bigger snail... maybe like 2   1/2 size and 3 full size would work.. how big are each of those anyhow... and i bet the purples are nice.. that is what i would love... cause it is my fav color can you tell lol.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse and Shannon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for differing on this and still staying nice to me LOL, refreshing on a list I must say!   The info I posted yesterday came from someone I trust, she did say her Zebra's eat pest snails shell and all.  I have oranda's in a snail tank and they have cleaned out the pest snails and they leave my brig snails alone.  Shannon do you have something else to put the snails in just in case the loach your Zebra does try to eat them?  I think it would be okay if I sent you already 1/2 grown or even full grown snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse -- are you looking for a home for any of those purples?  http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6690 From: julie_hash Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi everybody, I have a problem with one of my Mollies. I came home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from work to fond one of my Mollies acting funny. She(?) was swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      around using only her pectoral fins, with the other fins folded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (The back of her hanging down.) She has these wierd spots on her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that look like powder (but not like cotton). When the affected areas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      catch the light they shine (white, not golden). The other fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      keeping away, and not picking on her. I uploaded files to the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      named "julie hartley". The red arrows point to the affected areas. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      scoured the net and was unable to fine any info based on her symptoms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Specs: 10 gal, ph 7.9 (naturally), amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 25. 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      degrees. 3 Mollies & 3 Molly fry; lots of snails (none dead), med
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      planted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry for the long post, please let me know what you think. Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6691 From: LL314158@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         your fish has ick ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      there  is medicine you can buy to treat this..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ( try your local pet store )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       but ever fish I have had with it has died ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      & it is usually black mollies that catch it ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      usually all the mollies in same tank  will also catch it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      perhaps someone else has some idea what to do..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      sorry..  Linda M.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi everybody, I have a problem with one of my Mollies. I came home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from work to fond one of my Mollies acting funny. She(?) was swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      around using only her pectoral fins, with the other fins folded. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (The back of her hanging down.)  She has these wierd spots on her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that look like powder (but not like cotton). When the affected areas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      catch the light they shine (white, not golden). The other fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      keeping away, and not picking on her. I uploaded files to the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      named "julie hartley". The red arrows point to the affected areas.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      scoured the net and was unable to fine any info based on her symptoms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Specs: 10 gal, ph 7.9 (naturally), amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 25. 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      degrees. 3 Mollies & 3 Molly fry; lots of snails (none dead), med
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      planted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry for the long post, please let me know what you think. Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6692 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Molly w/ich and general snail questions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I just read the posts regarding the sick molly which one person identified as ich.  I was all geared to dose my tank  a second time until I took the advice from posters on this mailing list.  I gradually raised the tank temperature up to the low 80's, increased aeration, did a couple of good water changes in a week's time and every single dot of ich disappeared.  Using chemical treatments, I lost one fish, but using the natural approach, all came through beautifully.  I did move my snail over to the other tank, not wanting to give it the same treatments.  There was advice also on adding salt in conjunction with the temperature increase, but I had added stress coat and passed on the salt at first and didn't have to add it.  I have a lot of plants in the tank and didn't want to subject them to the increased brackishness.  I'm also paying very close attention to the temperatures in my tanks, making sure they stay nice and steady to avoid stressing my fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now, on to snails.  I have two magnificent apple snails, one golden and one bluish/black.  The darker one is actually my favorite, though the golden one is braver and has even tested my hand out in curiousity.  I have some questions as I never kept creatures like this before.  I've read a bit about adding calcium to the tank via antacid tablets like Rolaids or Tums.  How necessary is this and what effect will it have on the other tank inhabitants?  I have two community style tanks, one chiefly danios with some misc. tetras and two corys, one with gouramis, hatchets, neons, von rio tetras, algae eater and corys.  Also, the golden snail is accumulating some algae on the shell.  Should I do anything about this and if so, what can I do that will not harm the shell? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a GREAT list, probably the best I've ever subbed to on Yahoo lists.  Thanks for any input.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Linda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6693 From: julie_hash Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't think it is ich... it doesn't look like little dots. I looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      more like a blanket... I have had fish with ich before that survived,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but the ich didn't look like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No offense, but before I run out and buy some medication for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank, I want to be sure, as I have plants, snails & fry in the tnak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that I cannot move.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Please help!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      *SNIP*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, LL314158@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > your fish has ick ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6694 From: paul helms Date: 11/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it sounds like a bacterial infection, for which you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      can use melafix. it is all natural and will not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- julie_hash <goddessjules@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I don't think it is ich... it doesn't look like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > little dots. I looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > more like a blanket... I have had fish with ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > before that survived,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > but the ich didn't look like this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > No offense, but before I run out and buy some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > medication for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tank, I want to be sure, as I have plants, snails &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > fry in the tnak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I cannot move.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Please help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > *SNIP*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > LL314158@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > > your fish has ick ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6695 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      im glad your being smart and safe medication is so not necessary most of the time... i have learned that... shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't think it is ich... it doesn't look like little dots. I looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      more like a blanket... I have had fish with ich before that survived,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but the ich didn't look like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No offense, but before I run out and buy some medication for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank, I want to be sure, as I have plants, snails & fry in the tnak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that I cannot move.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Please help!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6696 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Molly w/ich and general snail questions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Linda good to hear you did basically the same thing as me but I raise my temp to 86.. And added salt.. Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      just read the posts regarding the sick molly which one person identified as ich.  I was all geared to dose my tank  a second time until I took the advice from posters on this mailing list.  I gradually raised the tank temperature up to the low 80's, increased aeration, did a couple of good water changes in a week's time and every single dot of ich disappeared.  Using chemical treatments, I lost one fish, but using the natural approach, all came through beautifully.  I did move my snail over to the other tank, not wanting to give it the same treatments.  There was advice also on adding salt in conjunction with the temperature increase, but I had added stress coat and passed on the salt at first and didn't have to add it.  I have a lot of plants in the tank and didn't want to subject them to the increased brackishness.  I'm also paying very close attention to the temperatures in my tanks, making sure they stay nice and steady to avoid stressing my fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now, on to snails.  I have two magnificent apple snails, one golden and one bluish/black.  The darker one is actually my favorite, though the golden one is braver and has even tested my hand out in curiousity.  I have some questions as I never kept creatures like this before.  I've read a bit about adding calcium to the tank via antacid tablets like Rolaids or Tums.  How necessary is this and what effect will it have on the other tank inhabitants?  I have two community style tanks, one chiefly danios with some misc. tetras and two corys, one with gouramis, hatchets, neons, von rio tetras, algae eater and corys.  Also, the golden snail is accumulating some algae on the shell.  Should I do anything about this and if so, what can I do that will not harm the shell? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a GREAT list, probably the best I've ever subbed to on Yahoo lists.  Thanks for any input.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Linda

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6697 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: new pictures
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      i just uploaded a couple of pictures of my newest fry in the photos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      section (amalthea folder) if anyone wants to take a peek :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6698 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Julie,  Alright, you say that the Molly has white spots that are covering the fish like a blanket.  While Paul has a good point in that it could be a bacterial infection, this sounds more like Velvet.  Quite often, Velvet will appear yellowish (or "golden") and can sometime even appear more of a rust color.  But it definitely can also appear as being white; as very fine white dust like particles blanketing the fish.  This fish needs to be treated at once or it will probably die within several days.  If this is the only fish infected, its best to remove it to its own aquarium where it can be treated.  If that's not possible (or more fish are infected), raise the temperature to between 82 and 84 degrees and add salt for starters.  As you don't say whether you have live plants or not, just use one tbls per 5 gallons; this should help.  You still need a  medication, though.  There are a few good ones that can be used for this such as Marex, Maracide and Coppersafe.  A copper based medication is most effective on Velvet.  However, you do not say if you have snails; a copper-based medication could kill them.  In that event, Aquarisol is one of the best medications to use against Velvet, which is still safe.  Often, a bacterial infection may accompany Velvet, which is best  treated with Nitro-Furazone.  Keep the aquarium in low-light -- Velvet is a parasitic algae.  Best of luck,   Ray     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6699 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do love that homepage picture. The goldfish has such a silly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      expression on his face... :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6700 From: bryants4god Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Molly w/ich and general snail questions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have heard of other people using the tums/rolaids method, I've never tried it though.  You can add calcium several other ways also.  Crushed coral, aragonite sand (if there's no ugf), liquid calcium (kent's marine 1/2 dosing for fresh water).  I also add liquid iodine for general shell hardness.  The snails use the calcium to grow new shell.  If there is not enough calcium the new shell will be thin and brittle.  It is very important to have them in a ph level of 7.8 or higher.  If not you will eventually start to get shell erosion.  The algae will not hurt the snails shells.  If you like the way it looks, leave it.  If you don't -- take a soft toothbrush and gently brush it off.  You can also visit www.applesnail.net I am a moderator there and it is the best snail forum in the world.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now, on to snails.  I have two magnificent apple snails, one golden and one bluish/black.  The darker one is actually my favorite, though the golden one is braver and has even tested my hand out in curiousity.  I have some questions as I never kept creatures like this before.  I've read a bit about adding calcium to the tank via antacid tablets like Rolaids or Tums.  How necessary is this and what effect will it have on the other tank inhabitants?  I have two community style tanks, one chiefly danios with some misc. tetras and two corys, one with gouramis, hatchets, neons, von rio tetras, algae eater and corys.  Also, the golden snail is accumulating some algae on the shell.  Should I do anything about this and if so, what can I do that will not harm the shell? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a GREAT list, probably the best I've ever subbed to on Yahoo lists.  Thanks for any input.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Linda



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          












                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6701 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RIP Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, our five year old Betta has finally died. We had been trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to breed him with Falling lLeaf, to spread those longevity genes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But I think the effort of mating actually killed him. He and Falling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Leaf were in their jar, and he had blown a bunch of bubbles, but when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they went into the clench, he suddenly spasmed and just floated down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to the bottom of the tank and died. Poor old Methuselah. My DH says
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      what a way to go, but my daughter is heartbroken. I guess we'll try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to introduce Falling Leaf to Tanzanite in a few days, since she is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      obviously ready to mate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6702 From: bryants4god Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This species gets the size of a golf ball.  The species that gets huge only comes in gold and a rust color with variations of course, but not purple :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is the large species (cana) in my daughters hands. http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/new%20large%20snail/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The first picture on this page is a hand holding 2 of the kind that come in purple.  http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/applesnail/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yea I have 5 betta tanks now... was thinking of putting them in there if the my master tank didn't work out.. i feed that botia so much and he is so docile i cant imagine him going after a bigger snail... maybe like 2   1/2 size and 3 full size would work.. how big are each of those anyhow... and i bet the purples are nice.. that is what i would love... cause it is my fav color can you tell lol.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse and Shannon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for differing on this and still staying nice to me LOL, refreshing on a list I must say!   The info I posted yesterday came from someone I trust, she did say her Zebra's eat pest snails shell and all.  I have oranda's in a snail tank and they have cleaned out the pest snails and they leave my brig snails alone.  Shannon do you have something else to put the snails in just in case the loach your Zebra does try to eat them?  I think it would be okay if I sent you already 1/2 grown or even full grown snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Elyse -- are you looking for a home for any of those purples?  http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6703 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's a parrot cichlid (Hybrid) and the silly expression is a very natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (ironically) look of the fish. Most of the strains cannot even close their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mouth properly but are sold only coz they look cute and have good colors.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Most individuals are also sterile and having a fertile pair is something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      very rare.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: cynthia brennemann [mailto:brennewoman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 05 November 2004 12:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >I do love that homepage picture. The goldfish has such a silly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >expression on his face... :D
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6704 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, whatever the fish...he makes me smile.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6705 From: shortlid Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      are Kissing Gourmai's OK in a comunity tank by themselves?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6706 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That - I agree

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: cynthia brennemann [mailto:brennewoman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 05 November 2004 13:52
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Well, whatever the fish...he makes me smile.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6707 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Those are so awesome. I love the blue striped ones and the purple ones... they are just so pretty.. def going to have to get a few.. But wondering will I need to do any special care for them or their shells.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      s species gets the size of a golf ball.  The species that gets huge only comes in gold and a rust color with variations of course, but not purple :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is the large species (cana) in my daughters hands. http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/new%20large%20snail/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The first picture on this page is a hand holding 2 of the kind that come in purple.  http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/applesnail/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6708 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gouramis are just fine if kept alone. Some males however turn aggressive but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      kissing gouramis are just fine. I see no issue with it except that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      easily get 6-10" in aquarium (12-14" wild size)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: 05 November 2004 14:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >are Kissing Gourmai's OK in a comunity tank by themselves?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6709 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Fwd: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that's my fishy yhennifer! she's a blood parrot and a cute one at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > On Nov 5, 2004, at 7:56 AM, cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I do love that homepage picture.  The goldfish has such a silly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> expression on his face... :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Service.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6710 From: shortlid Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Kissing Gourmai OK by it self?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's OK I know a nursing home that has a 50 gal. tank with TWO
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      small fish in it. I give them away when they get to big for my 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gal.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gouramis are just fine if kept alone. Some males however turn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aggressive but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > kissing gouramis are just fine. I see no issue with it except that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > easily get 6-10" in aquarium (12-14" wild size)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >From: shortlid [mailto:shortlid@j...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Sent: 05 November 2004 14:10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Kissing Gourmai OK by it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      self?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > >are Kissing Gourmai's OK in a comunity tank by themselves?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6711 From: Audrey Archer Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Endler's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, gang. Been just lurking for awhile. I am happy to say that the seven Endler's I got from Aquabid are all doing very well - I have three batches of fry in my tank right now, spaced about 2 weeks apart. I gave one M/F pair to my daughter Erin, and have 3 adult females and two adult males. This is my question - is it normal for an entire batch of fry to be all female?! My first batch of fry, of which there are nine (only lost one), appear to be all female, since they are now the size of the adult males and have no male coloration. Are the females naturally found in greater numbers or is this something that the environment may cause?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am only this week seeing the second batch of fry swimming and feeding with the larger fish; this group of fry are maybe a dozen in number (very small still);the final batch I know exist only because the formerly hugely pregnant female is now suddenly slender again... floating plants are very dense and they are well hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks - Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6 aponogetons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a bunch of cabombas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      riccia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      duck weed (sigh)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      5 golden white clouds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      5 adult Endler's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ??? Endler's fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      pH 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      temp 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrate 20 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ammonia 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      KH 120
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      GH 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (or maybe those last 2 are reversed)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Meldrim GA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6712 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Fwd: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea, you must really enjoy waking up to that face every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      morning. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6713 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear, i really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself vertically behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her about 10 minutes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      moving. i should try to get a side shot of her, because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      cutest little spikey mohawk look from that angle. yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      keeping one now. they really are great, if slightly nervous for their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Nov 5, 2004, at 3:37 PM, cynthia brennemann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > amalthea, you must really enjoy waking up to that face every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > morning.  :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6714 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know they are controversial with some people, but I sure would like to have one!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear, i really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself vertically behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her about 10 minutes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        moving. i should try to get a side shot of her, because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cutest little spikey mohawk look from that angle. yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keeping one now. they really are great, if slightly nervous for their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6715 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: RIP Methuselah
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          That is terrible! :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, our five year old Betta has finally died.  We had been trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to breed him with Falling lLeaf, to spread those longevity genes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But I think the effort of mating actually killed him.  He and Falling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Leaf were in their jar, and he had blown a bunch of bubbles, but when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they went into the clench, he suddenly spasmed and just floated down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to the bottom of the tank and died.  Poor old Methuselah.  My DH says
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          what a way to go, but my daughter is heartbroken.  I guess we'll try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to introduce Falling Leaf to Tanzanite in a few days, since she is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          obviously ready to mate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6716 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yes, some people are upset at their existence, but my stand on that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to ask them if they've ever had a purebred dog. most do, and therefore,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the arguments against this fish and others like it, are moot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 5, 2004, at 11:20 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I know they are controversial with some people, but I sure would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to have one!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear, i really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself vertically behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her about 10 minutes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > moving. i should try to get a side shot of her, because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cutest little spikey mohawk look from that angle. yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > keeping one now. they really are great, if slightly nervous for their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <image.tiff>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6717 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 11/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fwd: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I usually read the emails from my mailbox, but i just went to the homepage to see the fish evryone is talking about. She sure is a sweetie! really pretty, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dorothy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that's my fishy yhennifer! she's a blood parrot and a cute one at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > On Nov 5, 2004, at 7:56 AM, cynthia brennemann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> I do love that homepage picture.  The goldfish has such a silly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> expression on his face... :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6718 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ah it seems Patrick and Amalthea are out to convince me. Indeed a very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          stand Amalthae but its about inbreeding cats and dogs and not just different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          species of dogs. Would you like to have a hybrid between a dog and a horse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Or a cat and a monkey.... or to make it sound gross.. a human and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          chimpanzee?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Sent: 06 November 2004 04:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >yes, some people are upset at their existence, but my stand on that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >to ask them if they've ever had a purebred dog. most do, and therefore,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >the arguments against this fish and others like it, are moot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >On Nov 5, 2004, at 11:20 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> I know they are controversial with some people, but I sure would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> to have one!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear, i really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself vertically behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her about 10 minutes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> moving. i should try to get a side shot of her, because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> cutest little spikey mohawk look from that angle. yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> keeping one now. they really are great, if slightly nervous for their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> <image.tiff>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >> <l.gif>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6719 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to be 100% fair you can't compare apples to oranges
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          here. cross bredding 2 fish can't be compared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          bredding a dog and a horse or a cat and monkey. fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are fish. yeah it may be like bredding a piranna and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          a guppy, but they are still fish, and while i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          personally am against genetic engineering over cross
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          breeding, they are fish for pets, not the wild. as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          far as pets go,i am for it as long as it is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          something that couldn't happen by some odd twist of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mother nature, like two cmpletely unrelated things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          like a horse and dog that can not breed in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          number one the poor dog would be split in half and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          number two......nothing would result.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ah it seems Patrick and Amalthea are out to convince
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > me. Indeed a very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > stand Amalthae but its about inbreeding cats and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > dogs and not just different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > species of dogs. Would you like to have a hybrid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > between a dog and a horse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Or a cat and a monkey.... or to make it sound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gross.. a human and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > chimpanzee?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >Sent: 06 November 2004 04:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >yes, some people are upset at their existence, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > my stand on that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >to ask them if they've ever had a purebred dog.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most do, and therefore,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >the arguments against this fish and others like it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are moot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >On Nov 5, 2004, at 11:20 PM, Patrick, The American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> I know they are controversial with some people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but I sure would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> to�have one!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy,�2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> albino and 3 juli cories,�1 pleco, one female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > betta, and�1�paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> gourami.� I do not recommend this setup for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> ferns, hornwort, and�amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 30-60�power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > vertically behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > about 10 minutes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> moving. i should try to get a side shot of her,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> cutest little spikey mohawk look from that angle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> keeping one now. they really are great, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > slightly nervous for their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >> <image.tiff>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6720 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          sorry about the spelling everyone...it is 2:45 am!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i'm going to bed!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > nim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to be 100% fair you can't compare apples to oranges
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > here. cross bredding 2 fish can't be compared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bredding a dog and a horse or a cat and monkey.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are fish. yeah it may be like bredding a piranna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a guppy, but they are still fish, and while i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > personally am against genetic engineering over cross
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > breeding, they are fish for pets, not the wild. as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > far as pets go,i am for it as long as it is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something that couldn't happen by some odd twist of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > mother nature, like two cmpletely unrelated things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like a horse and dog that can not breed in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > number one the poor dog would be split in half and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > number two......nothing would result.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Ah it seems Patrick and Amalthea are out to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > convince
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > me. Indeed a very good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > stand Amalthae but its about inbreeding cats and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > dogs and not just different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > species of dogs. Would you like to have a hybrid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > between a dog and a horse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Or a cat and a monkey.... or to make it sound
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > gross.. a human and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > chimpanzee?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >Sent: 06 November 2004 04:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Silly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >yes, some people are upset at their existence,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > my stand on that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >to ask them if they've ever had a purebred dog.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > most do, and therefore,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >the arguments against this fish and others like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > are moot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >On Nov 5, 2004, at 11:20 PM, Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> I know they are controversial with some people,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > but I sure would like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> to�have one!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> Click the link below to learn about the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy,�2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> albino and 3 juli cories,�1 pleco, one female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > betta, and�1�paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> gourami.� I do not recommend this setup for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> ferns, hornwort, and�amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 30-60�power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > vertically behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > about 10 minutes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> moving. i should try to get a side shot of her,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> cutest little spikey mohawk look from that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > angle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> keeping one now. they really are great, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > slightly nervous for their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >> amalthea
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6721 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Looks like both Nim and Paul have valid points, UP TO A POINT.  First off, while I don't keep Bloody Parrot Fish, I can't say that they're not cute.  However, the point made by keeping dogs whether purebred or mutts does not seem to fit into this picture.  Purebred dogs are the result of selective and line breeding, of the same speices, much like the Red Swordtail, the "Snakeskin" Guppy or a Blue Betta; these are the results of breeding within a species.  Mutts (dogs or fish, like common Guppies, etc.) are also the result of breeding WITHIN A SPECIES, just with no controlled selectivity.  These Parrot Fish are the result of crossbreeding two DIFFERENT, although CLOSELY RELATED species (both Cichlids); the Severum (Heros severus) and the Red Devil (Amphilophus citrinellum).  Yes, they are all fish,  but the are different species.  And although its certainly not like breeding cats with dogs or horses with monkeys, it is like breeding dogs (Canus familiarus) with their close relatives (but different species) such as the wolf (Canus lupus), the coyote (Canus latrans) or the red fox (Vulpes vulpes), and technically like breeding humans (of the family Hominidae) with other Homonid members such as the gorilla, the chimpanzee or the bonobo.  Its just not a natural thing to do.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6722 From: Rusty Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Live plants-Pet Solutions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have purchased one of the "packages" from Pet Solutions (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ordered many other supplies). I believe you have to order by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thursday to have them shipped the next week. They arrived via UPS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2nd day or you can't opt for next day. They were all in great shape
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and had no SNAILS(unlike the local stores). I still soak all plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in Lime-It to kill snails and other bugs. Pet Solutions also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          great printed catalog. I have found their prices better than some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of the ebay sellers that I thought had good prices.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6723 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots - Species ID
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You are all wrong, of course.  It isn't like breeding dogs, or even dogs with a wolf (which happens all the time when a dog goes back to the wild), or like a dog and horse, or monkey, etc.  It is like breeding a horse and donkey to get a mule.  That has been an acceptable practice to get a strong work animal for a long time.  My opinion is, any two species that can be crossed to get an offspring are really the same species with slight differences.  Species is something people came up with to make the identity of an animal or plant easier to determine.  Taxonomy is less natural than a blood parrot...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6724 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Endler's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It can take anywhere from 1 month to sometimes 6 months for them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mature enough for you to sex them with variations even in the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            batch. Sometimes when they're immature they show little to no signs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of their color until they mature. I think it would be very unlikely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to have 8 all the same sex but sometimes with poecilidae livebearers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            temperature of the tank while they are developing internally can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            cause one sex to be favored over the other. I am not sure which way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it goes, or if it is even applicable to endler's, but if the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            above 80f or below 72f then you might have alot more of one sex than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the other. I would say keep an eye on them longer and you'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            probably find some of your females will turn out to be males that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            were just slow to mature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Dattilo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Audrey Archer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi, gang. Been just lurking for awhile. I am happy to say that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            seven Endler's I got from Aquabid are all doing very well - I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            three batches of fry in my tank right now, spaced about 2 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            apart. I gave one M/F pair to my daughter Erin, and have 3 adult
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            females and two adult males. This is my question - is it normal for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            an entire batch of fry to be all female?! My first batch of fry, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            which there are nine (only lost one), appear to be all female, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they are now the size of the adult males and have no male coloration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Are the females naturally found in greater numbers or is this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            something that the environment may cause?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am only this week seeing the second batch of fry swimming and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            feeding with the larger fish; this group of fry are maybe a dozen in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            number (very small still);the final batch I know exist only because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the formerly hugely pregnant female is now suddenly slender again...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            floating plants are very dense and they are well hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Thanks - Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 g
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 6 aponogetons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > a bunch of cabombas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > riccia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > duck weed (sigh)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 5 golden white clouds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 5 adult Endler's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ??? Endler's fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pH 7.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > temp 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nitrite 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > nitrate 20 ppm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ammonia 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > KH 120
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > GH 150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (or maybe those last 2 are reversed)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Meldrim GA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6725 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots - Species ID
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            right on 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > You are all wrong, of course. It isn't like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding dogs, or even dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with a wolf (which happens all the time when a dog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > goes back to the wild),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > or like a dog and horse, or monkey, etc. It is like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding a horse and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > donkey to get a mule. That has been an acceptable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > practice to get a strong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > work animal for a long time. My opinion is, any two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > species that can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > crossed to get an offspring are really the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > species with slight
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > differences. Species is something people came up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with to make the identity
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of an animal or plant easier to determine. Taxonomy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is less natural than a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > blood parrot...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6726 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ray one more point....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dogs as you mentioned descend form wolves in teh first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            place and tehy breed on their own. i happen to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            had a german shepard timber wolf mix for 16 years (up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to last july). same thing with the fish if their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            genes swap on their own i see nothing wrong with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            if they are closely enough related i do not see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            problem. as for man and ape.....their genes do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mix. i may be off here on the fish, as i do not know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            exactly how they are bred. if the fish can't do it on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            their own i am not for it. a side note i sthat they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are not all sterile either. majority are, but i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            seen breeding pairs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Looks like both Nim and Paul have valid points, UP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > TO A POINT. First off,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > while I don't keep Bloody Parrot Fish, I can't say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that they're not cute.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > However, the point made by keeping dogs whether
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > purebred or mutts does not seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fit into this picture. Purebred dogs are the result
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of selective and line
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding, of the same speices, much like the Red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Swordtail, the "Snakeskin" Guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > or a Blue Betta; these are the results of breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > within a species. Mutts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (dogs or fish, like common Guppies, etc.) are also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the result of breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > WITHIN A SPECIES, just with no controlled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > selectivity. These Parrot Fish are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > result of crossbreeding two DIFFERENT, although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > CLOSELY RELATED species (both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Cichlids); the Severum (Heros severus) and the Red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Devil (Amphilophus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > citrinellum). Yes, they are all fish, but the are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > different species. And although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > its certainly not like breeding cats with dogs or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > horses with monkeys, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like breeding dogs (Canus familiarus) with their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > close relatives (but different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > species) such as the wolf (Canus lupus), the coyote
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (Canus latrans) or the red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fox (Vulpes vulpes), and technically like breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > humans (of the family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hominidae) with other Homonid members such as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gorilla, the chimpanzee or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > bonobo. Its just not a natural thing to do. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6727 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Well, that's more like it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tanzanite (our new male betta, we got him two weeks ago) and falling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            leaf have met in the eldest daughters community tank, and they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            flaring and dancing around like crazy at each other. He flares and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dances for her, then goes and attacks his reflection viciously. Then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            she gets tired of his preening and nips at him to pay attention to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            HER! Then he flees to his corner, and she follows, and he gets upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and chases her back to the java fern. This seems more typical of all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the behaviors I've seen written about than Methuselah and her. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            were almost solicitous with each other.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            She has this odd whitish stripe in her scales right from nose tip to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tail...is this normal? We figure if nothing goes wrong, we'll put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them alone together one they settle down in the tank, and see if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nature takes it's course. Better happen soon, she's getting FAT!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6728 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My 2 puffers only eat live or frozen food, and I have to go a way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for a week...is there a special feeder I can buy or some other way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to make sure they get fed, I don't have any friends in the area to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            come by. Thanks for any suggestions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6729 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin - Blood Parrots.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clearly not, but that's not what's going on with fish either. no one is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            breeding a fish to a clam and calling it a great pet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 6, 2004, at 3:49 AM, Nimish Mathur wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ah it seems Patrick and Amalthea are out to convince me. Indeed a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stand Amalthae but its about inbreeding cats and dogs and not just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > species of dogs. Would you like to have a hybrid between a dog and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > horse?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Or a cat and a monkey.... or to make it sound gross.. a human and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > chimpanzee?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Sent: 06 November 2004 04:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >yes, some people are upset at their existence, but my stand on that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >to ask them if they've ever had a purebred dog. most do, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > therefore,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >the arguments against this fish and others like it, are moot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >On Nov 5, 2004, at 11:20 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> I know they are controversial with some people, but I sure would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> to have one!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> once i get past the "oh no! she's dead!" fear, i really do :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> she's a REALLY deep sleeper and wedges herself vertically behind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >>  filter or in a plant to sleep and it takes her about 10 minutes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> moving. i should try to get a side shot of her, because she has the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> cutest little spikey mohawk look from that angle. yhennifer is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> first blood parrot i've ever had and i'm pretty sure i'll always be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> keeping one now. they really are great, if slightly nervous for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> size, fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > >> amalthea
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6730 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            MAy sound heartless, but could you get a bunch of guppy fry? The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            puffers could eat on them if you stocked up. Since fish can go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            hungry for a couple of days without suffering ill effects, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            should be okay that way?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > My 2 puffers only eat live or frozen food, and I have to go a way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > for a week...is there a special feeder I can buy or some other way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to make sure they get fed, I don't have any friends in the area to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > come by. Thanks for any suggestions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6731 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There are lygers and Tigons in nature, thus refuting the idea that it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            not "natural."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 6, 2004, at 6:40 AM, sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Looks like both Nim and Paul have valid points, UP TO A POINT.  First
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > off, while I don't keep Bloody Parrot Fish, I can't say that they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > not cute.  However, the point made by keeping dogs whether purebred or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mutts does not seem to fit into this picture.  Purebred dogs are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > result of selective and line breeding, of the same speices, much like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the Red Swordtail, the "Snakeskin" Guppy or a Blue Betta; these are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the results of breeding within a species.  Mutts (dogs or fish, like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > common Guppies, etc.) are also the result of breeding WITHIN A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > SPECIES, just with no controlled selectivity.  These Parrot Fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the result of crossbreeding two DIFFERENT, although CLOSELY RELATED
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > species (both Cichlids); the Severum (Heros severus) and the Red Devil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (Amphilophus citrinellum).  Yes, they are all fish,  but the are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > different species.  And although its certainly not like breeding cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with dogs or! horses with monkeys, it is like breeding dogs (Canus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > familiarus) with their close relatives (but different species) such as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the wolf (Canus lupus), the coyote (Canus latrans) or the red fox
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > (Vulpes vulpes), and technically like breeding humans (of the family
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hominidae) with other Homonid members such as the gorilla, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > chimpanzee or the bonobo.  Its just not a natural thing to do.  Ray  
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6732 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sheesh, folks, all I wanted to do was compliment the homepage picture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            not start WW3!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6733 From: Paco! Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been getting lots of e-mails lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is my first reply after that I've been subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to keep all these in one tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115 gallons, I it is fully planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of gravel, so the fish have lots of place to hide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess this big piece of wood should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood they seem happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I hope my reply helps you Tammy




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At 02:44 AM 11/3/2004, you wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am having a problem getting my ph down. Our tap water is high 8 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            9. I add vingear to the water to reduce the ph of each gallon of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            water I add. The ph of each gallon is 7. I have even tried the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            bought ph down stuff and it does nothing either. I have three tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            One is tropical which includes Bala sharks, angelfish, corys, white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            clouds, pleco, and snails. One of the other tanks is a betta. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            last one is goldfish, pleco, and snail.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the ph down?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tammy





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6734 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Paul,  Agreed, dogs & wolves do breed naturally occassionally where they cross paths.  I've seen the resulting offspring myself.  Perhaps that was a poor example, but my point was that they are regarded as two separate species, even if closely related.  Perhaps I should have just said fox or coyote.  The Parrot Fish are bred in the far east by stripping the eggs from one fish and the milt from another, much like breeding trout and other gamefish in a state wildlife hatchery, only as we know, these are two different species.  I have seen apparent fertile pairs on Aqua-bid occassionally, although most are sterile.  I kind of like them, although now they are coming in all different un-natural colors like purple, possibly injected. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6735 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            horrible thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 6, 2004, at 6:20 PM, sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Paul,  Agreed, dogs & wolves do breed naturally occassionally where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > they cross paths.  I've seen the resulting offspring myself.  Perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > that was a poor example, but my point was that they are regarded as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > two separate species, even if closely related.  Perhaps I should have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > just said fox or coyote.  The Parrot Fish are bred in the far east by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > stripping the eggs from one fish and the milt from another, much like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding trout and other gamefish in a state wildlife hatchery, only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > as we know, these are two different species.  I have seen apparent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > fertile pairs on Aqua-bid occassionally, although most are sterile.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > kind of like them, although now they are coming in all different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > un-natural colors like purple, possibly injected. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6736 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well the goldfish have been taken care of. Talk to one of the owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            of the LFS and they took the fish after all.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > you don't offer them in a tank just the fish... but im thinking it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > hard cause i know most docs and business have ppl that come in and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            take care of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > their fish cause they just don't have time or knowledge to do it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > schools might be ok but most tanks are kinda small there... but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            just never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > know.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I don't have a tank to offer them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6737 From: wjcoldman Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just wondering if it is possible to get too much CO2 in my tank. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is a 60 gal planted tank. Plants are doing great, I have to prune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them back about every 2-3 weeks. It contain 2 octilis cat (my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            spelling stinks) 8 apple snails, 3 small cory cats and 6 neon tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am going to get 6-8 nickle size black angles this week and hope I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can get a breeding pair when my babies grow up. As for the CO2 i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            using to yeast and sugar systems that I bought at my LFS. It has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            up and running for over eight months and all is fine all the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            come out excellent. Thanks for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6738 From: crickit99@aol.com Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What kind of puffers are they? And what size are they?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have 2 species of freshwater puffers (dwarf and south american), and both are on a staple diet of snails...and ghost shrimp at times. So both of those are put in the tank alive...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6739 From: paul helms Date: 11/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            no war going on...we are just staing opinions, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            much calmer than usual...lol

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Sheesh, folks, all I wanted to do was compliment the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > homepage picture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > not start WW3!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6740 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: New & Question Setting Up Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A 20 tall is a good start. Angels need a deep tank for good fin development.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In a perfect angel, you will see that the measurement from the tip of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            dorsal to the tip of the anal is as much as two to four inches more than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            length of the body from the tip of the snout to the caudal peduncle. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            length of a full grown angel should be six to eight inches, depending on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As you can see from the above, a 20 tall would be hardly sufficient for an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            adult pair, so you should be thinking about getting a larger tank in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            future to hold your angels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Good plants for this tank would be things like sagittarius or vallisneria,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and amazon sword plants. A piece of driftwood or two would finish off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            decor, so long as it is mostly vertical.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Ashley Capps [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] New & Question Setting Up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Angels




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My name is Ashley and I just wanted to introduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            myself to the list. I'm 24, married with one daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and expecting my second child in March. I have kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            aquariums for several years now with various types of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            fish. My current fish population is as follows. LOL 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gallon tank with 4 Buenos Aires Tetras, 5 Black Widow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tetras, 5 Bloodfin Tetras, an Albino Cory Catfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            a Spotted Cory Catfish. I have a 10 gallon tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            feeder Endlers in it, temporary 5 gallon with 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Platies and a batch of new fry in a v-breeder, 4 male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Bettas in their own fish bowls, blue, red, white and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yellow and a female Betta in the feeder tank in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            huricane glass (she will attack most any fish now).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My question is really any advice for setting up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Angels. Its been years since I had any and back then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            all but one died and she grew to full size and even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            spawned though I didn't have a male with her. She was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            gorgeous and my pride and joy. I would love to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            new set-up going with Angels again. I have a 20 tall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            that I would like to set them up in and really only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            have maybe a cory cat or two with them and no other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            types of fish. I keep live plants in all my aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and will in the Angel tank too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recently sold my other 30 tank to a gentleman who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            actually has a successful spawn of Angel babies. He's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            never bred them before so he's learning as he goes. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            will hopefully get some from him when they're on solid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            foods.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hope to hear from you soon! Thanks for reading.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ashley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ashley Capps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            American Gerbil Society Member SC011
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.geocities.com/gerbilheavenkennels/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Adopt A Greyhound!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            www.greyhoundsandlove.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            *Say NO to the Puppymill-Petstore Connection*



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6741 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Hi


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            XanGo Philippines <brojoed@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I guys, new here. Joed is my name and I love fishes.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6742 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi, Joed! You may want to join pinoyaquatics@... It's a Pinoy group for Filipino aquarium enthusiasts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            XanGo Philippines <brojoed@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I guys, new here. Joed is my name and I love fishes.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6743 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Endler's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Congrats on the fry! I tend to get more female than male fry. Apparently pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            and/or temp has some sort of effect on sex but I haven't been able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thoroughly research it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recently purchased some different color strains and have them in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            separate 5g. There are a couple very pregant females so it will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            interesting to see how their fry turn out.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: "Audrey Archer" <arch1574@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi, gang. Been just lurking for awhile. I am happy to say that the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Endler's I got from Aquabid are all doing very well - I have three batches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > of fry in my tank right now, spaced about 2 weeks apart. I gave one M/F
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pair to my daughter Erin, and have 3 adult females and two adult males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > This is my question - is it normal for an entire batch of fry to be all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > female?! My first batch of fry, of which there are nine (only lost one),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > appear to be all female, since they are now the size of the adult males
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and have no male coloration. Are the females naturally found in greater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > numbers or is this something that the environment may cause?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am only this week seeing the second batch of fry swimming and feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > with the larger fish; this group of fry are maybe a dozen in number (very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > small still);the final batch I know exist only because the formerly hugely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > pregnant female is now suddenly slender again... floating plants are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > dense and they are well hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6744 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: update on my aquarium!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, my Mickey Mouse Platy has recovered ... I'm not sure if it was the higher temps (weather here got warmer, so as a result water temp got back to 80 degrees F on its own) or if it was the more frequent feeding. But at any rate, she is no longer "bent".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            More news! I mentioned before that I got a male/female pair of Endlers from my mother, and that the female was pregnant (she had a big fat belly). Well, "Mama" as I'm calling her now, is no longer fat, she is nice and slender ... and I've spotted about 15 baby Endlers swimming all over! They aren't being pestered by any of the adult fish, which thrills me, so I'm not bothering to move the babies to the "nursery box". As a result of the babies being free in the tank, it's hard to get an exact count. *grin*  I think there are about 15 of them. Also, the male, who was initially very shy, is finally starting to display for the female. I think that at the beginning, since he wasn't the "dominant male" in my mother's tank, that he didn't realize that he would be safe to pursue the female. But after she gave birth, he suddenly started displaying to her. Not sure what the connection is, but that was the timing at least.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As the fry get bigger, I'll take some of them to the LFS so they can get homes ... anyone know when Endlers show which gender they are? I know most (if not all) livebearers appear female in the first part of life and only show outward signs of being male later, so I wasn't sure at what time Endlers do that. (Mom could probably use that info as well, seeing as how she has Endler fry also.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2 Endlers (m & f)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            15? Endler fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6745 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish?  Do you mean a species in the betta genus?  Or am I just wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been getting lots of e-mails lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is my first reply after that I've been subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to keep all these in one tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115 gallons, I it is fully planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of gravel, so the fish have lots of place to hide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess this big piece of wood should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood they seem happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I hope my reply helps you Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6746 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Sheesh, folks, all I wanted to do was compliment the homepage picture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not start WW3!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually I started it when I mentioned that they are controversial.  I was pointing that out so we could debate and learn.  I don't think it has gotten out of hand...yet...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6747 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree.  I like their "natural" coloring more than their dipped colors.  There is something wrong with a lime colored parrot fish. :)  I think the real debate isn't really how they came to be.  It is are they naturally occurring.  That is more of a problem with some people than it is with others.  Since there all domesticated animals have been created in similar ways, although usually not so high-tech, I don't see the problem.  Every time you eat a steak or piece of bread or tomato or pork chop, you have pretty much eaten the product of the same kind of process.  The human population would have died out without genetic engeneering a few thousand years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a horrible thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6748 From: harry perry Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree.  I like their "natural" coloring more than their dipped colors.  There is something wrong with a lime colored parrot fish. :)  I think the real debate isn't really how they came to be.  It is are they naturally occurring.  That is more of a problem with some people than it is with others.  Since there all domesticated animals have been created in similar ways, although usually not so high-tech, I don't see the problem.  Every time you eat a steak or piece of bread or tomato or pork chop, you have pretty much eaten the product of the same kind of process.  The human population would have died out without genetic engineering a few thousand years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a horrible thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  amalthea


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6749 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I said it wasn't so high tech.  It did exist, it is called selective breeding.  It is nothing but low-tech genetic engineering.  All domesticated plants and animals were "created" through selective breeding.  Otherwise they are simply wild plants or animals in being tamed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6750 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there are saltwater bettas which are more like a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    grouper. they look a bit like fresh water bettas, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they eat anything that fits in their mouths and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have a grouper type mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > angels, sea betta, guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish? Do you mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a species in the betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > genus? Or am I just wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > getting lots of e-mails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > This is my first reply after that I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > angels, sea betta, guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > keep all these in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gallons, I it is fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gravel, so the fish have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lots of place to hide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this big piece of wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they seem happy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hope my reply helps you Tammy




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6751 From: harry perry Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank God it doesn't apply to the human race, we wouldn't be here today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My gouramis don't seem to be very selective, they mate with any female  in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What is your point?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The human race doesn't seem to be very selective either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My point? don't" F___" with mother nature it will bite you in the ass every time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I said it wasn't so high tech.  It did exist, it is called selective breeding.  It is nothing but low-tech genetic engineering.  All domesticated plants and animals were "created" through selective breeding.  Otherwise they are simply wild plants or animals in being tamed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6752 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    harry-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    selective breeding does not mean that the animals are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    selective. it is when people breed two specific fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to get their traits passed along to the next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    generation. this is how all of the breed of dog that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    exist have come about (outside of dingos). man
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    specifically bred them with dogs that had desirable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    traits. thsi is why many of the breeds have only been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    around for relatively short periods of time. fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    done in the same way. they are bred for fin shape,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    color, size, and longevity. this is why there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    many problems now. without having the occasional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    infucion of wild dna the lines begin to get weak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    like making a copy of a tape of a copy of a tape of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    copy of a tape. eventually the quality goes down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with fish it is difficult to introduce outside DNA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because most of the fish out there have originated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    from the same original wild specimens. so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anyway....selective breeding is arranged by man to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    keep the qualities that we liek around, not by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fishes choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thank God it doesn't apply to the human race, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wouldn't be here today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My gouramis don't seem to be very selective, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > mate with any female in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What is your point?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The human race doesn't seem to be very selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My point? don't" F___" with mother nature it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bite you in the ass every time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I said it wasn't so high tech. It did exist, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is called selective breeding. It is nothing but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > low-tech genetic engineering. All domesticated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants and animals were "created" through selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > breeding. Otherwise they are simply wild plants or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > animals in being tamed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6753 From: Paco! Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Good question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually I was wondering the same when I saw the label at the LFS, I searched for it on the internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      but did not find anything useful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It has nothing to do with the betta splendens, I guess I will take a picture of it and send it to the list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Can I attach a picture to the list or should I just uploaded somewhere?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 07:48 PM 11/7/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish?  Do you mean a species in the betta genus?  Or am I just wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been getting lots of e-mails lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is my first reply after that I've been subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to keep all these in one tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115 gallons, I it is fully planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of gravel, so the fish have lots of place to hide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess this big piece of wood should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood they seem happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope my reply helps you Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a958a9.jpg 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6754 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Julie,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would suspect velvet from your description, though velvet normally covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the entire fish--you may be seeing the beginning of the disease, or, more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      correctly, infestation, since velvet is caused by a parasite, similar to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ich.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Treatment would be the same as for Ich, raised temperature and some salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      added to the aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A few things make me unsure of the diagnosis. First, I am not in a position
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      to view the fish. Second, velvet is not usually white. It reflects a rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      or golden color, generally. Finally, you do not describe any flashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      behavior. Flashing is the fish rubbing up against various objects in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aquarium as if it is scratching itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If one fish has it, soon all the others will have it as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From: julie_hash [mailto:goddessjules@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help! Sick Molly




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi everybody, I have a problem with one of my Mollies. I came home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from work to fond one of my Mollies acting funny. She(?) was swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      around using only her pectoral fins, with the other fins folded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      (The back of her hanging down.) She has these wierd spots on her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that look like powder (but not like cotton). When the affected areas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      catch the light they shine (white, not golden). The other fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      keeping away, and not picking on her. I uploaded files to the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      named "julie hartley". The red arrows point to the affected areas. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      scoured the net and was unable to fine any info based on her symptoms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Specs: 10 gal, ph 7.9 (naturally), amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 25. 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      degrees. 3 Mollies & 3 Molly fry; lots of snails (none dead), med
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      planted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry for the long post, please let me know what you think. Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      julie








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6755 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it did to a certain extent. every time a human chooses which animals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      will mate (rather than the animals just randomly doing it on their own)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      that's genetic engineering. so if i take my most prolific male, and put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      him with only females who have a lot of muscle mass, that's genetic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      engineering.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Nov 7, 2004, at 1:09 PM, harry perry wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >     I agree.  I like their "natural" coloring more than their dipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > colors.  There is something wrong with a lime colored parrot fish. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think the real debate isn't really how they came to be.  It is are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > they naturally occurring.  That is more of a problem with some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > than it is with others.  Since there all domesticated animals have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > been created in similar ways, although usually not so high-tech, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > don't see the problem.  Every time you eat a steak or piece of bread
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > or tomato or pork chop, you have pretty much eaten the product of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > same kind of process.  The human population would have died out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > without genetic engineering a few thousand years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > horrible thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > amalthea
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6756 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      it did at one point, in nazi germany, and in a way, it still does. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      all "selectively breed" to create more of the characteristics that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      find pleasant, that is just the way of breeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On Nov 7, 2004, at 1:49 PM, harry perry wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thank God it doesn't apply to the human race, we wouldn't be here
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My gouramis don't seem to be very selective, they mate with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > female  in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What is your point?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The human race doesn't seem to be very selective either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > My point? don't" F___" with mother nature it will bite you in the ass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > every time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Harry  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >     I said it wasn't so high tech.  It did exist, it is called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > selective breeding.  It is nothing but low-tech genetic engineering. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > All domesticated plants and animals were "created" through selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > breeding.  Otherwise they are simply wild plants or animals in being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tamed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6757 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding:  corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Without all of these things, humans could not have fed themselves and there would never have been more than a few hundred thousand of us.  All of these things were created from wild versions through selective breeding to cross certain genes to get stronger versions.  They didn't know about genetics like we do now, but they were using the same techniques farmers use today to create hybrid crops and livestock.  "Messing with nature" may seem like a bad idea, but it has been going on since the very first, earliest civilization began.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6758 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for reply...I have 2 dwarf puffers...i have several ghost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shrimp in there now, its seems liek they are not big enough to eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the shrimp yet...the puffers are about an inch each...maybe they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will eat the shrimp if they get hungry enough...how do you get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails to feed them? ALl the snails Iv seen are kinda expensive ($4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each)..I am in LA/SoCali...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        C



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crickit99@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What kind of puffers are they? And what size are they?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have 2 species of freshwater puffers (dwarf and south
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        american), and both are on a staple diet of snails...and ghost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shrimp at times. So both of those are put in the tank alive...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6759 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There was recently a person to run for a seat in the Federal House of Representatives here in Tennessee who supported the Eugenics movement.  Basically, this movement supports the government intervention of who can and can't breed according to their IQ.  I voted against him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it did at one point, in nazi germany, and in a way, it still does. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          all "selectively breed" to create more of the characteristics that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          find pleasant, that is just the way of breeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6760 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'd love to have an off group conversation about this one, but since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          we're getting off the "fish only" topics here, we should start trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to turn back to them!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Nov 7, 2004, at 3:15 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > There was recently a person to run for a seat in the Federal House of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Representatives here in Tennessee who supported the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Eugenics movement.  Basically, this movement supports the government
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > intervention of who can and can't breed according to their IQ.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > voted against him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it did at one point, in nazi germany, and in a way, it still does. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > all "selectively breed" to create more of the characteristics that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > find pleasant, that is just the way of breeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > <image.tiff>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6761 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Selective breeding is not un-natural I think as even in the wild, survival of the fittest and the fittest gets to mate is in a way “selective breeding” though our purpose of selective breeding is agriculture. Creating hybrids for agricultural purposes that are not physically deformed or handicapped is perfectly acceptable. Creating a fish for beauty purpose that cannot close its mouth properly is something I personally don’t like. I have no objection in the Flowerhorn or similar type of fish that are physically normal but Blood Parrots is something different from Flower horn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As for Hybrids, they are probably not un-natural as we term “hybrid” to something that we have created by mixing 2 species but something that nature creates the same way is a separate species rather then “Hybrids”. Just a gesture to show that we cannot compete with nature in any way even in creating a new species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Everyone is correct in a way as fiddling with nature is something that no civilization can afford and we are already paying a very high price for it not only in environmental issues but also reminding the fact of the catastrophe of the Cichlids in Lake Victoria .

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@hotmail.com]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: 07 November 2004 20:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breeding

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding:  corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and that is the short list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Without all of these things, humans could not have fed themselves and there would never have been more than a few hundred thousand of us.  All of these things were created from wild versions through selective breeding to cross certain genes to get stronger versions.  They d idn 't know about genetics like we do now, but they were using the same techniques farmers use today to create hybrid crops and livestock.  "Messing with nature" may seem like a bad idea, but it has been going on since the very first, earliest civilization began.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nitrogen Cycle

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6762 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Blind cave fish can go for over 40 months without eating. . . . Oh!, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            asked about puffers. If they have been well fed, a week should not hurt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them. Fish are rather opportunistic eaters. If there is food, they will eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it. If there is no food, they will not eat. Happens all the time in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wild--good meal today, next meal, who knows when.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: robdar4609 [mailto:robdar4609@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Feeding Puffers on Vacation?




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My 2 puffers only eat live or frozen food, and I have to go a way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            for a week...is there a special feeder I can buy or some other way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            to make sure they get fed, I don't have any friends in the area to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            come by. Thanks for any suggestions.








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6763 From: Steve Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, it is possible to overdose your tank with CO2. However, with the setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            you describe, it would be a bit difficult to do so. Just keep an eye on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            pH, and when it starts dropping, you may be adding more CO2 than con be used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            by the plants in your tank, and you may want to cut back a bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: wjcoldman [mailto:wjcoldman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] CO2




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just wondering if it is possible to get too much CO2 in my tank. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is a 60 gal planted tank. Plants are doing great, I have to prune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them back about every 2-3 weeks. It contain 2 octilis cat (my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            spelling stinks) 8 apple snails, 3 small cory cats and 6 neon tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am going to get 6-8 nickle size black angles this week and hope I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can get a breeding pair when my babies grow up. As for the CO2 i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            using to yeast and sugar systems that I bought at my LFS. It has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            up and running for over eight months and all is fine all the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            come out excellent. Thanks for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Walter








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6764 From: bryants4god Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They just need lots of calcium, high ph and prefer hard water.  Other than that they are easy to take care of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Terri Bryant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Those are so awesome. I love the blue striped ones and the purple ones... they are just so pretty.. def going to have to get a few.. But wondering will I need to do any special care for them or their shells.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            s species gets the size of a golf ball.  The species that gets huge only comes in gold and a rust color with variations of course, but not purple :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is the large species (cana) in my daughters hands. http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/new%20large%20snail/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The first picture on this page is a hand holding 2 of the kind that come in purple.  http://photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/applesnail/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6765 From: harry perry Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: selective breeding/Your list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            We wouldn't have any of the things on your list without selective breeding? I find that hard to believe. How did our forefathers exist without your knowledge?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The items on your list have been around for thousands of years. Long before selective breeding was even understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How did we ever survive without genetic engineering. The fact is we did.And we will continue to.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding:  corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Without all of these things, humans could not have fed themselves and there would never have been more than a few hundred thousand of us.  All of these things were created from wild versions through selective breeding to cross certain genes to get stronger versions.  They didn't know about genetics like we do now, but they were using the same techniques farmers use today to create hybrid crops and livestock.  "Messing with nature" may seem like a bad idea, but it has been going on since the very first, earliest civilization began.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6766 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: selective breeding/Your list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            what patrick should have written at the end of the list was "as we know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            them" because none of what we currently consume on that list is in its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "natural" state.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 7, 2004, at 11:42 PM, harry perry wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > We wouldn't have any of the things on your list without selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding? I find that hard to believe. How did our forefathers exist
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > without your knowledge?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The items on your list have been around for thousands of years. Long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > before selective breeding was even understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > How did we ever survive without genetic engineering. The fact is we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > did.And we will continue to.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sheep, and that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >     Without all of these things, humans could not have fed themselves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > and there would never have been more than a few hundred thousand of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > us.  All of these things were created from wild versions through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > selective breeding to cross certain genes to get stronger versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > They didn't know about genetics like we do now, but they were using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > the same techniques farmers use today to create hybrid crops and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > livestock.  "Messing with nature" may seem like a bad idea, but it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > been going on since the very first, earliest civilization began.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6767 From: Ray Wetzel Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            More recent posts on this subject are referring to us selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            breeding dogs (except Dingoes), and also for our benefit, corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            wheat, tomatoes, cats, horses, etc. I'm not sure if these referals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            are in support of the existance of Parrot Fish or not. I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            don't see how they can be, as these examples are all citing selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            breeding for desired traits WITHIN A SPECIES. We do not selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            breed a cat to a dog, or a horse to a cow. Getting back to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Parrot Fish, this is exactly what is being done here; breeding one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            species of fish to another different species. It cannot be said that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            it doesn't matter because they're all fish -- horses and cows are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mammals, but we don't breed them together. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6768 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            we now have cockapoos and every other type of dog bred with poodles for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            our benefit, and the same is done with cats (tonkanese for example)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this is all done "for our benefit" and benefit there means pleasure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the whole argument is just a little ridiculous no matter how you look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            at it. "pros" will not convince "antis" to change their opinions ever,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            no matter what, and vice versa...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On Nov 8, 2004, at 12:33 AM, Ray Wetzel wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > More recent posts on this subject are referring to us selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding dogs (except Dingoes), and also for our benefit, corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > wheat, tomatoes, cats, horses, etc.  I'm not sure if these referals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > are in support of the existance of Parrot Fish or not.  I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > don't see how they can be, as these examples are all citing selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breeding for desired traits WITHIN A SPECIES.  We do not selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > breed a cat to a dog, or a horse to  a cow.  Getting back to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Parrot Fish, this is exactly what is being done here; breeding one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > species of fish to another different species.  It cannot be said that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > it doesn't matter because they're all fish -- horses and cows are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > mammals, but we don't breed them together. Ray
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6769 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Horse + Donkey = Mule, two different species combined a long time ago (probably with no human intervention at first) to make a different animal.  Horses and zebras also cross on their own.  They are two closely related species, just like the two cichlids that are crossed to make a parrot fish.  I would even bet the first parrot fish was an accident created naturally with little intervention, but have no way of proving that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              More recent posts on this subject are referring to us selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              breeding dogs (except Dingoes), and also for our benefit, corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              wheat, tomatoes, cats, horses, etc.  I'm not sure if these referals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              are in support of the existance of Parrot Fish or not.  I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              don't see how they can be, as these examples are all citing selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              breeding for desired traits WITHIN A SPECIES.  We do not selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              breed a cat to a dog, or a horse to  a cow.  Getting back to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Parrot Fish, this is exactly what is being done here; breeding one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              species of fish to another different species.  It cannot be said that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it doesn't matter because they're all fish -- horses and cows are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mammals, but we don't breed them together. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6770 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: early ag and fish breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Genetic engineering sounds terrible, like something from a sci-fi movie where clones take over the world.  In reality it is nothing more than Humans doing what we have been doing for a few thousand years, making life forms that suit our needs.  The items on my list did exist more than a few thousand years ago. Wheat, corn, and rice as small weeds that were nearly useless.  Cows were too wild to get meat and dairy.  Pigs were wild, too.  Sheep probably came from mountain goats with longer-than-normal hair.  Fancy male bettas came from a very plain species of fish.  Many colors of livebearers are rare or don't exist in the wild.  Same with long-finned versions of popular fish species (danios, bettas, tetras).  I know it is hard to believe, but read some ancient history books about early civilization.  Humans probably didn't even know what dna or genes were, but they did know how to manipulate them.  Fear of the unknown has never led to anything but fighting each other.  GM is just another example.  Did you know that Europe is letting thousands of Africans starve because they won't let the US send food that may or may not have some modifications?  In a few hundred years, there is no telling what our fish will look like.  People might be fighting over whether or not they should go to the fish store to have their dead fish cloned. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ---ORIGINAL MESSAGE---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                We wouldn't have any of the things on your list without selective breeding? I find that hard to believe. How did our forefathers exist without your knowledge?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The items on your list have been around for thousands of years. Long before selective breeding was even understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                How did we ever survive without genetic engineering. The fact is we did.And we will continue to.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@hotmail.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding:  corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6771 From: Dawana Branch Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Walter & CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't have the answer about your CO2, however I was wondering what plants you have that your apple snails don't consider it their personal salad bar.  I had one apple snail in a 29 gal that I was trying to convert to planted, and he took to "snacking."  I moved him to my 29 gal that has goldfish and now plants for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 3:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 486


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There are 25 messages in this issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Topics in this digest:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. Re: Need some goldfish advise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: wolf1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. CO2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "wjcoldman" <wjcoldman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3. Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: crickit99@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      4. Re: Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      5. RE: New & Question Setting Up Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      6. Re: Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7. Re: Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      8. Re: Endler's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Dan & Theresa" <dtmergl@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      9. update on my aquarium!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Erin VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     10. Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     11. Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     12. Re: Silly grin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     13. Re: Silly grin/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     14. Re: Silly grin/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     15. Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     16. Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     17. Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     18. Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: Paco! <Paco@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     19. RE: Help! Sick Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     20. Re: Silly grin/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     21. Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     22. Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     23. Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "robdar4609" <robdar4609@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     24. Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     25. Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 1        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 02:18:05 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: wolf1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need some goldfish advise


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well the goldfish have been taken care of. Talk to one of the owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of the LFS and they took the fish after all.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you don't offer them in a tank just the fish... but im thinking it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hard cause i know most docs and business have ppl that come in and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                take care of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > their fish cause they just don't have time or knowledge to do it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > schools might be ok but most tanks are kinda small there... but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > know.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I don't have a tank to offer them.





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 2        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 03:48:06 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "wjcoldman" <wjcoldman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: CO2


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just wondering if it is possible to get too much CO2 in my tank. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is a 60 gal planted tank. Plants are doing great, I have to prune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them back about every 2-3 weeks. It contain 2 octilis cat (my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spelling stinks) 8 apple snails, 3 small cory cats and 6 neon tetras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am going to get 6-8 nickle size black angles this week and hope I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can get a breeding pair when my babies grow up. As for the CO2 i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                using to yeast and sugar systems that I bought at my LFS. It has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                up and running for over eight months and all is fine all the test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                come out excellent. Thanks for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Walter





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 3        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:49:37 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: crickit99@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Feeding Puffers on Vacation?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 What kind of puffers are they? And what size are they?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I have 2 species of freshwater puffers (dwarf and south american), and both are on a staple diet of snails...and ghost shrimp at times. So both of those are put in the tank alive...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 4        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:05:03 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Re: Silly grin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                no war going on...we are just staing opinions, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                much calmer than usual...lol

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sheesh, folks, all I wanted to do was compliment the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > homepage picture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not start WW3!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 5        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:35:32 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: New & Question Setting Up Angels

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A 20 tall is a good start. Angels need a deep tank for good fin development.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In a perfect angel, you will see that the measurement from the tip of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dorsal to the tip of the anal is as much as two to four inches more than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                length of the body from the tip of the snout to the caudal peduncle. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                length of a full grown angel should be six to eight inches, depending on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As you can see from the above, a 20 tall would be hardly sufficient for an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                adult pair, so you should be thinking about getting a larger tank in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                future to hold your angels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good plants for this tank would be things like sagittarius or vallisneria,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and amazon sword plants. A piece of driftwood or two would finish off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                decor, so long as it is mostly vertical.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ashley Capps [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] New & Question Setting Up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Angels




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My name is Ashley and I just wanted to introduce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                myself to the list. I'm 24, married with one daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and expecting my second child in March. I have kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                aquariums for several years now with various types of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish. My current fish population is as follows. LOL 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gallon tank with 4 Buenos Aires Tetras, 5 Black Widow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tetras, 5 Bloodfin Tetras, an Albino Cory Catfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a Spotted Cory Catfish. I have a 10 gallon tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                feeder Endlers in it, temporary 5 gallon with 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Platies and a batch of new fry in a v-breeder, 4 male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bettas in their own fish bowls, blue, red, white and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yellow and a female Betta in the feeder tank in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                huricane glass (she will attack most any fish now).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My question is really any advice for setting up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Angels. Its been years since I had any and back then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                all but one died and she grew to full size and even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spawned though I didn't have a male with her. She was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gorgeous and my pride and joy. I would love to get a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                new set-up going with Angels again. I have a 20 tall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that I would like to set them up in and really only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have maybe a cory cat or two with them and no other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                types of fish. I keep live plants in all my aquariums
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and will in the Angel tank too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I recently sold my other 30 tank to a gentleman who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                actually has a successful spawn of Angel babies. He's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                never bred them before so he's learning as he goes. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will hopefully get some from him when they're on solid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                foods.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hope to hear from you soon! Thanks for reading.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley Capps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                American Gerbil Society Member SC011
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.geocities.com/gerbilheavenkennels/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Adopt A Greyhound!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 6        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:00:05 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Hi



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                XanGo Philippines <brojoed@...> wrote:0F4F1472-E703-43F4-A411-80D6836A668F4.0LetterLetter\hugging_dolphins.imfDolphinsAnimalsHugging DolphinsSU1CTDEsNDYsgUmBSYE4iTiFiZ2RTSydgZVNiZU4iU0kiYWFTcGBKJnBlZkkmZnBOEmBSYFJgSxJTUJMMiwwLCxJTUJMMywwLCw=7C9C9565-438A-4FBB-B250-883D1A18BAE2no-repeat#3a61beright0pxBFF138F0-3EFC-11D4-BA3D-0050DAC680300BFF138F0-3EFC-11D4-BA3D-0050DAC680301A5BE2A00-37CC-11D4-BA36-0050DAC680300A5BE2A00-37CC-11D4-BA36-0050DAC680301C3C52140-4147-11D4-BA3D-0050DAC680300X-ASN,X-ASH,X-AN,X-AP,X-AD;I guys, new here. Joed is my name and I love fishes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 7        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:01:26 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Rodrigo Jr. Marquez" <la_rmarquezjr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Hi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi, Joed! You may want to join pinoyaquatics@... It's a Pinoy group for Filipino aquarium enthusiasts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                XanGo Philippines <brojoed@...> wrote:0F4F1472-E703-43F4-A411-80D6836A668F4.0LetterLetter\hugging_dolphins.imfDolphinsAnimalsHugging DolphinsSU1CTDEsNDYsgUmBSYE4iTiFiZ2RTSydgZVNiZU4iU0kiYWFTcGBKJnBlZkkmZnBOEmBSYFJgSxJTUJMMiwwLCxJTUJMMywwLCw=7C9C9565-438A-4FBB-B250-883D1A18BAE2no-repeat#3a61beright0pxBFF138F0-3EFC-11D4-BA3D-0050DAC680300BFF138F0-3EFC-11D4-BA3D-0050DAC680301A5BE2A00-37CC-11D4-BA36-0050DAC680300A5BE2A00-37CC-11D4-BA36-0050DAC680301C3C52140-4147-11D4-BA3D-0050DAC680300X-ASN,X-ASH,X-AN,X-AP,X-AD;I guys, new here. Joed is my name and I love fishes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 8        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:38:23 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Dan & Theresa" <dtmergl@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Endler's

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Congrats on the fry! I tend to get more female than male fry. Apparently pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and/or temp has some sort of effect on sex but I haven't been able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thoroughly research it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I recently purchased some different color strains and have them in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                separate 5g. There are a couple very pregant females so it will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                interesting to see how their fry turn out.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Audrey Archer" <arch1574@...>


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi, gang. Been just lurking for awhile. I am happy to say that the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Endler's I got from Aquabid are all doing very well - I have three batches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of fry in my tank right now, spaced about 2 weeks apart. I gave one M/F
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pair to my daughter Erin, and have 3 adult females and two adult males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This is my question - is it normal for an entire batch of fry to be all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > female?! My first batch of fry, of which there are nine (only lost one),
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > appear to be all female, since they are now the size of the adult males
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and have no male coloration. Are the females naturally found in greater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > numbers or is this something that the environment may cause?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I am only this week seeing the second batch of fry swimming and feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with the larger fish; this group of fry are maybe a dozen in number (very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > small still);the final batch I know exist only because the formerly hugely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pregnant female is now suddenly slender again... floating plants are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dense and they are well hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                free!




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 9        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:07:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Erin VanKouwenberg" <celticmama78@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: update on my aquarium!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, my Mickey Mouse Platy has recovered ... I'm not sure if it was the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                higher temps (weather here got warmer, so as a result water temp got back to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                80 degrees F on its own) or if it was the more frequent feeding. But at any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rate, she is no longer "bent".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                More news! I mentioned before that I got a male/female pair of Endlers from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my mother, and that the female was pregnant (she had a big fat belly). Well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Mama" as I'm calling her now, is no longer fat, she is nice and slender ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and I've spotted about 15 baby Endlers swimming all over! They aren't being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pestered by any of the adult fish, which thrills me, so I'm not bothering to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                move the babies to the "nursery box". As a result of the babies being free
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in the tank, it's hard to get an exact count. *grin*  I think there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                about 15 of them. Also, the male, who was initially very shy, is finally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                starting to display for the female. I think that at the beginning, since he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wasn't the "dominant male" in my mother's tank, that he didn't realize that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                he would be safe to pursue the female. But after she gave birth, he suddenly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                started displaying to her. Not sure what the connection is, but that was the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                timing at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As the fry get bigger, I'll take some of them to the LFS so they can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                homes .. anyone know when Endlers show which gender they are? I know most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (if not all) livebearers appear female in the first part of life and only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                show outward signs of being male later, so I wasn't sure at what time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Endlers do that. (Mom could probably use that info as well, seeing as how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                she has Endler fry also.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 Mickey Mouse Platies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 Endlers (m & f)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                15? Endler fry

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 10       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:48:04 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: PH Problem

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish?  Do you mean a species in the betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                genus?  Or am I just wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been getting lots of e-mails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is my first reply after that I've been subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to keep all these in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115 gallons, I it is fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of gravel, so the fish have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lots of place to hide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess this big piece of wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood they seem happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I hope my reply helps you Tammy

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 11       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:51:33 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Sheesh, folks, all I wanted to do was compliment the homepage picture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not start WW3!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually I started it when I mentioned that they are controversial.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                was pointing that out so we could debate and learn.  I don't think it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gotten out of hand...yet...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                [This message contained attachments]



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 12       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:58:40 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree.  I like their "natural" coloring more than their dipped colors.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 There is something wrong with a lime colored parrot fish. :)  I think the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                real debate isn't really how they came to be.  It is are they naturally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                occurring.  That is more of a problem with some people than it is with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                others.  Since there all domesticated animals have been created in similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ways, although usually not so high-tech, I don't see the problem.  Every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                time you eat a steak or piece of bread or tomato or pork chop, you have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pretty much eaten the product of the same kind of process.  The human
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                population would have died out without genetic engeneering a few thousand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a horrible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 13       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:09:26 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree.  I like their "natural" coloring more than their dipped colors.  There is something wrong with a lime colored parrot fish. :)  I think the real debate isn't really how they came to be.  It is are they naturally occurring.  That is more of a problem with some people than it is with others.  Since there all domesticated animals have been created in similar ways, although usually not so high-tech, I don't see the problem.  Every time you eat a steak or piece of bread or tomato or pork chop, you have pretty much eaten the product of the same kind of process.  The human population would have died out without genetic engineering a few thousand years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a horrible thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 14       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:25:52 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I said it wasn't so high tech.  It did exist, it is called selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                breeding.  It is nothing but low-tech genetic engineering.  All domesticated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                plants and animals were "created" through selective breeding.  Otherwise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they are simply wild plants or animals in being tamed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                [This message contained attachments]



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 15       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:47:36 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: PH Problem

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                there are saltwater bettas which are more like a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                grouper.  they look a bit like fresh water bettas, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they eat anything that fits in their mouths and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have a grouper type mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > angels, sea betta, guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish?  Do you mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a species in the betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > genus?  Or am I just wrong?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paradise gourami.  I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > getting lots of e-mails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This is my first reply after that I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > angels, sea betta, guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > keep all these in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gallons, I it is fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gravel, so the fish have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lots of place to hide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this big piece of wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they seem happy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I hope my reply helps you Tammy




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 16       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:49:45 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank God it doesn't apply to the human race, we wouldn't be here today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My gouramis don't seem to be very selective, they mate with any female  in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What is your point?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The human race doesn't seem to be very selective either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My point? don't" F___" with mother nature it will bite you in the ass every time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I said it wasn't so high tech.  It did exist, it is called selective breeding.  It is nothing but low-tech genetic engineering.  All domesticated plants and animals were "created" through selective breeding.  Otherwise they are simply wild plants or animals in being tamed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 17       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:02:45 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                harry-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                selective breeding does not mean that the animals are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                selective.  it is when people breed two specific fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to get their traits passed along to the next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                generation.  this is how all of the breed of dog that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                exist have come about (outside of dingos).  man
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                specifically bred them with dogs that had desirable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                traits.  thsi is why many of the breeds have only been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                around for relatively short periods of time.  fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                done in the same way. they are bred for fin shape,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                color, size, and longevity.  this is why there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                many problems now.  without having the occasional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                infucion of wild dna the lines begin to get weak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                like making a copy of a tape of a copy of a tape of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                copy of a tape.  eventually the quality goes down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                with fish it is difficult to introduce outside DNA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                because most of the fish out there have originated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from the same original wild specimens.  so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                anyway....selective breeding is arranged by man to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                keep the qualities that we liek around, not by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fishes choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thank God it doesn't apply to the human race, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wouldn't be here today.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My gouramis don't seem to be very selective, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mate with any female  in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What is your point?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The human race doesn't seem to be very selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My point? don't" F___" with mother nature it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bite you in the ass every time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry 




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     I said it wasn't so high tech.  It did exist, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is called selective breeding.  It is nothing but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > low-tech genetic engineering.  All domesticated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants and animals were "created" through selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > breeding.  Otherwise they are simply wild plants or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > animals in being tamed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > years ago". So how did we get to where we are today?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 18       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:04:32 +0200
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: Paco! <Paco@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: PH Problem

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Actually I was wondering the same when I saw the label at the LFS, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                searched for it on the internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but did not find anything useful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It has nothing to do with the betta splendens, I guess I will take a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                picture of it and send it to the list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Can I attach a picture to the list or should I just uploaded somewhere?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At 07:48 PM 11/7/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >"I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >guppies, 2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish?  Do you mean a species in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > betta genus?  Or am I just wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ><http://americanfishguy.tripod.com/nitrogencycle.html>Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >-------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been getting lots of e-mails lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >This is my first reply after that I've been subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >guppies, 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to keep all these in one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115 gallons, I it is fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of gravel, so the fish have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >lots of place to hide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess this big piece of wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood they seem happy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >I hope my reply helps you Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ><http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cheers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ____________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Paco!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                E-mail: Paco@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Secret Home page: http://Paco.DarkEyes.com

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good lovers are patient. Great ones don't need to be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Smile.. Cause it makes people wonder what you are thinking.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you feel in control, you're not going fast enough

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ____________________________________________________


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 19       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:39:28 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: RE: Help! Sick Molly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Julie,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would suspect velvet from your description, though velvet normally covers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the entire fish--you may be seeing the beginning of the disease, or, more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                correctly, infestation, since velvet is caused by a parasite, similar to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ich.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Treatment would be the same as for Ich, raised temperature and some salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                added to the aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A few things make me unsure of the diagnosis. First, I am not in a position
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to view the fish. Second, velvet is not usually white. It reflects a rusty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                or golden color, generally. Finally, you do not describe any flashing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                behavior. Flashing is the fish rubbing up against various objects in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                aquarium as if it is scratching itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If one fish has it, soon all the others will have it as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: julie_hash [mailto:goddessjules@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Help! Sick Molly




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi everybody, I have a problem with one of my Mollies. I came home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from work to fond one of my Mollies acting funny. She(?) was swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                around using only her pectoral fins, with the other fins folded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (The back of her hanging down.)  She has these wierd spots on her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that look like powder (but not like cotton). When the affected areas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                catch the light they shine (white, not golden). The other fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                keeping away, and not picking on her. I uploaded files to the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                named "julie hartley". The red arrows point to the affected areas.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                scoured the net and was unable to fine any info based on her symptoms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Specs: 10 gal, ph 7.9 (naturally), amm 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 25. 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                degrees. 3 Mollies & 3 Molly fry; lots of snails (none dead), med
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                planted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry for the long post, please let me know what you think. Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                julie








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 20       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:55:05 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it did to a certain extent. every time a human chooses which animals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will mate (rather than the animals just randomly doing it on their own)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that's genetic engineering. so if i take my most prolific male, and put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                him with only females who have a lot of muscle mass, that's genetic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                engineering.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 7, 2004, at 1:09 PM, harry perry wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Genetic engineering didn't exist"a few thousand years ago". So how did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > we get to where we are today?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I agree. I like their "natural" coloring more than their dipped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > colors. There is something wrong with a lime colored parrot fish. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I think the real debate isn't really how they came to be. It is are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they naturally occurring. That is more of a problem with some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > than it is with others. Since there all domesticated animals have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > been created in similar ways, although usually not so high-tech, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't see the problem. Every time you eat a steak or piece of bread
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or tomato or pork chop, you have pretty much eaten the product of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > same kind of process. The human population would have died out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > without genetic engineering a few thousand years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > usually the colors are made via dip dye process, which is still a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > horrible thing to do, particularly since they're naturally pretty on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > their own...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <image.tiff>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message: 21       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:56:46 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it did at one point, in nazi germany, and in a way, it still does. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                all "selectively breed" to create more of the characteristics that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                find pleasant, that is just the way of breeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 7, 2004, at 1:49 PM, harry perry wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thank God it doesn't apply to the human race, we wouldn't be here
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My gouramis don't seem to be very selective, they mate with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > female in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What is your point?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The human race doesn't seem to be very selective either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My point? don't" F___" with mother nature it will bite you in the ass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > every ti

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6772 From: Dawana Branch Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Apology about truncating (or lack thereof) & RE: Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I apologize about the reply to Walter and not truncating the reply.  I hit the send button too soon.  I do read the emails via digest and I got too excited about posting.  I'll do better next time.  I don't post often and I really enjoy the group.  I learn so much.  Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their quick replies and let you know I do apologize and I'll do better next time. Smiley emoticon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great day!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Dawana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 3:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Digest Number 486
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6773 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you are missing the entire point here. most of us
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  have no problem with cross breeding because there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  nothing being done that could not happen in the wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  all of your comparisons are not possible just by a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fertilization. if a dog had sex with a cat, nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  would happen other than the cat getting pissed off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if a donkey had sex with a horse, the result would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a mule. they are not differnt animals, these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  creatures are close enough to ferilize each othe,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  where your examples are not. human and chimp dna is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  96% the same, but that is not close enough to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fertilize either species by the other. as your example
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  states we don not breed your examples together because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it is not possible to breed them. to create something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  usiong their dna may be possible in a lab, by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fertilizing is NOT!!!!!! that is the whole point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  just like fish, different breed of dogs are still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  dogs. and in this case different breeds of fish are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  still in the same species. plain and simple, we are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  making the point that cross breeding is not the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as cloning or any other procedures. it is simply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  invitro fertilization. if the fish were not that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  closely related nothing would happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- Ray Wetzel <sevenspringss@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > More recent posts on this subject are referring to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > us selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > breeding dogs (except Dingoes), and also for our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > benefit, corn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wheat, tomatoes, cats, horses, etc. I'm not sure if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > these referals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are in support of the existance of Parrot Fish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not. I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > don't see how they can be, as these examples are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > citing selective
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > breeding for desired traits WITHIN A SPECIES. We do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not selectively
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > breed a cat to a dog, or a horse to a cow. Getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > back to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Parrot Fish, this is exactly what is being done
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > here; breeding one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > species of fish to another different species. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cannot be said that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it doesn't matter because they're all fish -- horses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and cows are all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > mammals, but we don't breed them together. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6774 From: paul helms Date: 11/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: selective breeding/Your list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  cross breeding is the issue here....not genetic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  engineering. it is still genetic engineering which is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  a new term because it is manipulation. it all started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  with the preist and his sweet peas. take any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  beginning leveel or 1000 level biology course and you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  will understand. it is much like teh survival of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  fittest thing, only sped up with our help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > We wouldn't have any of the things on your list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > without selective breeding? I find that hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > believe. How did our forefathers exist without your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > knowledge?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The items on your list have been around for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > thousands of years. Long before selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > was even understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > How did we ever survive without genetic engineering.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The fact is we did.And we will continue to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > List of things I know we wouldn't have with out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > selective breeding: corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Without all of these things, humans could not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have fed themselves and there would never have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > more than a few hundred thousand of us. All of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > these things were created from wild versions through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > selective breeding to cross certain genes to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stronger versions. They didn't know about genetics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > like we do now, but they were using the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > techniques farmers use today to create hybrid crops
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and livestock. "Messing with nature" may seem like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a bad idea, but it has been going on since the very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > first, earliest civilization began.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6775 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cockapoos are the result of selective breeding between different types of dogs -- ALL WITHIN ONE SPECIES.  Likewise, Tonkanese are the result of selective breeding of different types of cats, but again, ALL WITHIN ONE SPECIES.  A Cocker Spaniel and a French Poodle (both making a Cockapoo) are both dogs; both one species.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6776 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just so you know, the general definition of "species" is as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spe·cies   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6777 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Paul,  I do understand what you and others are trying to say.  And, as you point out . . . different breeds of dogs are all the same; yes this is true they are all one species -- Canus familiarus -- no matter if its a Shephard or a Collie, but when you refer to two breeds of fish as you are doing with a Parrot Fish, you are referring to two different (even if closely related) species.  Our longfin Bettas are derived from continous selective breeding of Bettas with the long-fin traits, but they were bred from Bettas, all of them, no other species involved.  Same with the longfin Zebra Danios -- they were bred from Zebra Danios; no other species involved.  Yes certain closely related species will on occassion interbreed, like the horse and the donkey.  The resulting Mule is not fertile, however, which indicates its not a normal crossing.  Even such crossings as the horse & zebra or the tiger & lion are the un-natural result of man's interferance as they are never found together in the wild, and they are seldom fertile.  As a member of the American Museum of Natural History, I've even come across reports of early man occassionally interbreeding with Neandertal man where their territories overlapped, although I don't think it was proven, just theories.   Horses were never native to North America, except going way back when elepants too were in North America, both having died out long ago.  It was only with the introduction by the Spanish explorers that horses were reintroduced to North America, which enabled them to come into contact with donkies.  The two species involved with Parrot fish can never cross breed in nature as the Severum is found only in South America and the Red Devil is found in Central America.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6778 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As per the very outlines of the definition you cite, all Cichlids are not one species.  As stated the horse is Equus (genus name), caballus (species name).  DIFFERENT Cichlid species are also so named, such as Cichlasoma (genus name), severum (species name) and Cichlasoma (genus name), festivum (species name), and so on, each species of the Cichlid family having a different name and being a different species.  They may by chance or by human intereferance breed once, but their resulting offspring are for the most part infertile (incapable of reproducing a species) and this is one of the criteria of determining if two closely related organisms are one species, which in this case they are not.  (Still talking about the Parrot Fish).  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6779 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Blood parrots can not occur naurally. Severum is south American and the red devil or what ever the other part is Central American. My point here is that even though the Flowerhorn is a similar development but it is without the defects as can be seen in the Parrots. I don’t find Parrots cute just coz they cannot close their mouth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 08 November 2004 09:16
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Silly grin/selective breeding

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As per the very outlines of the definition you cite, all Cichlids are not one species.  As stated the horse is Equus (genus name), caballus (species name).  DIFFERENT Cichlid species are also so named, such as Cichlasoma (genus name), severum (species name) and Cichlasoma (genus name), festivum (species name), and so on, each species of the Cichlid family having a different name and being a different species.  They may by chance or by human intereferance breed once, but their resulting offspring are for the most part infertile (incapable of reproducing a species) and this is one of the criteria of determining if two closely related organisms are one species, which in this case they are not.  (Still talking about the Parrot Fish).  Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6780 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Exactly one of my points Nim, as I mnetioned in my next-to-previous post.  Severums are from South America and Red Devils are from Central America, so of course can only be bred through human interference and cannot breed naturally because of distance constraints.  However, to bring forth some other points, although a horse (Equus caballus) and a donkey (Equus asinus) will interbreed, that does not make them one species.  If you're going by genes, the horse has 64 genes and the donkey has only 62 genes.  The resulting Mule has 63 genes and is one of the reasons its usually sterile.  It does not even have a scientific name attached to it as it is not a recognized species.   If you are going by species names, why then do all different Cichlids have different scientific names.  Although (as pointed out) different cats can interbreed but they are not all one species even though they are closely related -- in the same family.  The tiger is called Panthera tigris, the lion is called Panthera leo, the leopard is called Panthera uncia and the housecat is called Felis sylvestris; subspecies - catus or domesticus.  If they're all the same species, again, why do they have different species names?  If all Cichlids were the same species, why then are Discus, Angelfish, Jack Dempseys and Firemouths (ALL Cichlids) all different.  And is there any chance they'll breed together -- NO.  Then too, a Rift Lake Cichlid from Lake Malawi cannot be bred to a Severum.  They breed in different manners.  The Malawi Cichlid is a Mouthbrooder and the Severum is a Substrate-spawner.  This is but another criteria that catagorizes them as a different species.  It may be possible for man to strip both the eggs and milt from these two fish, but even then, I doubt the eggs would fertilize, or if they did would probably die shortly afterwards.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6781 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: early ag and fish breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Genetic engineering has'nt always produced anything that was ultimately beneficial to the organism engineered. Fish that can barely swim, short-lived dogs, dogs with weak backs, calves that must live in their own diarhea, cattle with ulcers, sheep with arthritis.Whether it was directly engineered or through ambient treatment, there's a need to be aware about what we subsidize. Crops engineered for yield and appearance were on the verge of being devastated by blight until a possible means of crossbreeding with naturally evolved types were used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Got to get to work. This should'nt be a pro (let them do whatever pleases us for ornament) engineering scenario. Tmpering inappropriately does'nt produce good results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Genetic engineering sounds terrible, like something from a sci-fi movie where clones take over the world. In reality it is nothing more than Humans doing what we have been doing for a few thousand years, making life forms that suit our needs. The items on my list did exist more than a few thousand years ago. Wheat, corn, and rice as small weeds that were nearly useless. Cows were too wild to get meat and dairy. Pigs were wild, too. Sheep probably came from mountain goats with longer-than-normal hair. Fancy male bettas came from a very plain species of fish. Many colors of livebearers are rare or don't exist in the wild. Same with long-finned versions of popular fish species (danios, bettas, tetras). I know it is hard to believe, but read some ancient history books about early civilization. Humans probably didn't even know what dna or genes were, but they did know how to manipulate them. Fear of the unknown has never led to anything but fighting each other. GM is just another example. Did you know that Europe is letting thousands of Africans starve because they won't let the US send food that may or may not have some modifications? In a few hundred years, there is no telling what our fish will look like. People might be fighting over whether or not they should go to the fish store to have their dead fish cloned. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ---ORIGINAL MESSAGE---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We wouldn't have any of the things on your list without selective breeding? I find that hard to believe. How did our forefathers exist without your knowledge?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The items on your list have been around for thousands of years. Long before selective breeding was even understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How did we ever survive without genetic engineering. The fact is we did.And we will continue to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding: corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6782 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: early ag and fish breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       "Plain" does'nt mean gild the lily, and industry has promised genetically manipulated plants would'nt be allowed to cross pollinate, and cross-pollination has happened. I don't know what Europes caution is (if that's what it is, but they're not primitive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Genetic engineering sounds terrible, like something from a sci-fi movie where clones take over the world. In reality it is nothing more than Humans doing what we have been doing for a few thousand years, making life forms that suit our needs. The items on my list did exist more than a few thousand years ago. Wheat, corn, and rice as small weeds that were nearly useless. Cows were too wild to get meat and dairy. Pigs were wild, too. Sheep probably came from mountain goats with longer-than-normal hair. Fancy male bettas came from a very plain species of fish. Many colors of livebearers are rare or don't exist in the wild. Same with long-finned versions of popular fish species (danios, bettas, tetras). I know it is hard to believe, but read some ancient history books about early civilization. Humans probably didn't even know what dna or genes were, but they did know how to manipulate them. Fear of the unknown has never led to anything but fighting each other. GM is just another example. Did you know that Europe is letting thousands of Africans starve because they won't let the US send food that may or may not have some modifications? In a few hundred years, there is no telling what our fish will look like. People might be fighting over whether or not they should go to the fish store to have their dead fish cloned. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ---ORIGINAL MESSAGE---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We wouldn't have any of the things on your list without selective breeding? I find that hard to believe. How did our forefathers exist without your knowledge?.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The items on your list have been around for thousands of years. Long before selective breeding was even understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How did we ever survive without genetic engineering. The fact is we did.And we will continue to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    List of things I know we wouldn't have with out selective breeding: corn, wheat, tomatoes, squash, rice, dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, and that is the short list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6783 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/Patrick/again/selective breed...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim,  Point well taken, and I have to agree; hybridizing in agriculture has brought us a long way in producing more crops per acre, etc., but then, we are not breeding two different  vegetables together, like tomatoes & corn.  Also, when new species arise out of nature, it is not the result of two different species hybridizing, but one species evolving into two, with a variant of that species finding a different niche in the environment and adapting two it and, over time, slowly developing into a new species.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6784 From: Jonathan Hartsoe Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But which case is worse a sterile parrot fish, or the various mixbreed fish out there that can reproduce like all the "mixed tank" african cichlids you see. Atleast in the case of the parrot fish the parent species genetic lines are preserved as the offspring will never reproduce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6785 From: Audrey Archer Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Endlers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks! Actually , on looking much, much closer, I did see some gravid spots on some of the fry, and some gonopodia on some of the others, so apparently I have a good mix. Just no coloration yet. I will be patient...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message: 11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:56:19 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: highwaychilde@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Endler's


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It can take anywhere from 1 month to sometimes 6 months for them to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    mature enough for you to sex them with variations even in the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    batch. Sometimes when they're immature they show little to no signs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of their color until they mature. I think it would be very unlikely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to have 8 all the same sex but sometimes with poecilidae livebearers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    temperature of the tank while they are developing internally can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cause one sex to be favored over the other. I am not sure which way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it goes, or if it is even applicable to endler's, but if the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    above 80f or below 72f then you might have alot more of one sex than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the other. I would say keep an eye on them longer and you'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    probably find some of your females will turn out to be males that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    were just slow to mature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6786 From: paul helms Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Silly grin/selective breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so what....you are making the same point now that we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are. they are introduced by man, but closely related
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    enough that no "manipulation" is being done to their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    genes, such as splicing etc. that is why pat calle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dit genetic engineering and selective breeding. i was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    making the point that they can't do it with species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that could not be put in the same enclosure and doit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    naturally if so inclined, and pat was making the point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    that there is no "horse play" going on in a lab other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    than invitro which we do on humans.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Paul, I do understand what you and others are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trying to say. And, as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > point out . . . different breeds of dogs are all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > same; yes this is true they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are all one species -- Canus familiarus -- no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > if its a Shephard or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Collie, but when you refer to two breeds of fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you are doing with a Parrot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fish, you are referring to two different (even if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > closely related) species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Our longfin Bettas are derived from continous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > selective breeding of Bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with the long-fin traits, but they were bred from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Bettas, all of them, no other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > species involved. Same with the longfin Zebra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Danios -- they were bred from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Zebra Danios; no other species involved. Yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > certain closely related species
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will on occassion interbreed, like the horse and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > donkey. The resulting Mule
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is not fertile, however, which indicates its not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > normal crossing. Even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > such crossings as the horse & zebra or the tiger &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lion are the un-natural result
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of man's interferance as they are never found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > together in the wild, and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > are seldom fertile. As a member of the American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Museum of Natural History,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I've even come across reports of early man
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > occassionally interbreeding with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Neandertal man where their territories overlapped,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > although I don't think it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > proven, just theories. Horses were never native to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > North America, except
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > going way back when elepants too were in North
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > America, both having died out long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ago. It was only with the introduction by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Spanish explorers that horses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > were reintroduced to North America, which enabled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > them to come into contact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with donkies. The two species involved with Parrot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fish can never cross breed in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > nature as the Severum is found only in South America
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and the Red Devil is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > found in Central America. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6787 From: astyanax00000 Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Freshwater Plant Lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I may be setting up a plant tank in the very near future, and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wondering about full-spectrum lighting setups for freshwater plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As a saltwater enthusiast, I'm comlpetely comfortable with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    combination of blue actinic and full-spectrum bulbs to give reef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    inhabitants the light they need and to really bring out the color.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    In the freshwater plant world, I'm noticing that the commonly-used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spectrum of bulb produces an ugly greenish or yellowish color to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is there any reason I shouldn't use a reef-style combination (full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spectrum plus actinic) of lighting for such a tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6788 From: paul helms Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Freshwater Plant Lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    use exactly what you do with the saltwater....it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    perfect, especiallyi f you ar using compacts. shoot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for 2 -3 watts per gallon and you will do great...paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- astyanax00000 <bill@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I may be setting up a plant tank in the very near
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > future, and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wondering about full-spectrum lighting setups for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > freshwater plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > As a saltwater enthusiast, I'm comlpetely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > comfortable with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > combination of blue actinic and full-spectrum bulbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to give reef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > inhabitants the light they need and to really bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out the color.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > In the freshwater plant world, I'm noticing that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > commonly-used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > spectrum of bulb produces an ugly greenish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > yellowish color to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is there any reason I shouldn't use a reef-style
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > combination (full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > spectrum plus actinic) of lighting for such a tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6789 From: aaoo881 Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Too much Lighting?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have got kind of a wierd question . Is there ever to much light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for fish? I bought a light hood today that has spots for 2 lights .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have 1 Marine-Glo 20 watt light and a 20 watt Sylvania
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Blacklight . Is it ok to run these together the color they put off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    together is awesome ? Should I only run one at a time ? Any help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone can give me will be appreciated . Thank you in advance.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike R.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6790 From: astyanax00000 Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Freshwater Plant Lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've just read that in freshwater aquariums, lighting favoring the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    blue end of the spectrum is more conducive to algae growth, while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lighting favoring the red end is more beneficial to the plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    less so for algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wonder if there's any truth to this. Any thoughts?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > use exactly what you do with the saltwater....it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > perfect, especiallyi f you ar using compacts. shoot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for 2 -3 watts per gallon and you will do great...paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- astyanax00000 <bill@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I may be setting up a plant tank in the very near
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > future, and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > wondering about full-spectrum lighting setups for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > freshwater plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As a saltwater enthusiast, I'm comlpetely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > comfortable with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > combination of blue actinic and full-spectrum bulbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to give reef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > inhabitants the light they need and to really bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > out the color.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > In the freshwater plant world, I'm noticing that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > commonly-used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > spectrum of bulb produces an ugly greenish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > yellowish color to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Is there any reason I shouldn't use a reef-style
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > combination (full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > spectrum plus actinic) of lighting for such a tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6791 From: Paco! Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: PH Problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Patrick,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Back to your question about sea betta, I searching into my encyclopedia and apparently the local fish store (LFS)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is wrong, the actual name of this fish is Knight Goby, (Stigmatogobius Sadanundio).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for letting me know that there is something wrong in my previous mail.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Paco!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 07:48 PM 11/7/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum, 2 little parrots"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Isn't a sea betta a saltwater fish?  Do you mean a species in the betta genus?  Or am I just wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I a am bit late for this subject, but I've been getting lots of e-mails lately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      after subscribing to a couple of mailing list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is my first reply after that I've been subscribed for a week now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have discus in my tank along with tetra neons, angels, sea betta, guppies, 2 little severum,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2 little parrots, I know that it sounds strange to keep all these in one tank, but my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      is around 500 liters and I guess it is around 115 gallons, I it is fully planted, one big rock, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      big piece of wood with white sea sand instead of gravel, so the fish have lots of place to hide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I keep my ph stable by using peat moss and I guess this big piece of wood should be lowering the ph too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I had the discus for 3 or 4 months now, touch wood they seem happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope my reply helps you Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2cd309.jpg 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6792 From: red-eye Date: 11/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Too much Lighting?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I doubt you will have to much light . I am using (2) 6500K & (2) 10,000K lights byJbJ
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      aaoo881 <aaoo881@...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have got kind of a wierd question . Is there ever to much light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      for fish? I bought a light hood today that has spots for 2 lights .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have 1 Marine-Glo 20 watt light and a 20 watt Sylvania
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Blacklight . Is it ok to run these together the color they put off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      together is awesome ? Should I only run one at a time ? Any help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      anyone can give me will be appreciated . Thank you in advance.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike R.





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6793 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Help with quiz on the Radio!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There is a riddle on our radio station that has been going for just over a month, we have had 2 guesses and not got it. It si really starting to stress us out. toomuch

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can anyone help?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        RIDDLE.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Why did a man put a hole in his mattress?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Clues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its logical. It has something to do with the man's job/line of work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6794 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Marineland Light Timer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just got a Marineland brand light timer and the instructions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very limited--I can't seem to get it to work. I have it set to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time of day, and I have tried to leave it on both "switches" on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        top but it never seems to work?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does anyone have any suggestions with this product? Many thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6795 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, after Methuselah died in the act of love, we decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        introduce Falling Leaf to Tanzanite in the Community tank to get them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        accustomed to each other before trying to breed them. The stuff I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been reading lately recommends you give them a week or so to get used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to each other. So, today I go in to move them into their breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank, and what do I see, but a flurry of betta movement in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thickest part of the plants, followed by eggs floating downwards, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tanzanite zipping around scooping them up in his mouth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I guess it's too late to move them now...hope something comes of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this. The water temp is between 80-82 degrees, the filter is on its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lowest flow, and all of the fish except for the platy, cories, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppy fry are out of there...so maybe, just maybe we'll get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out of this...not holding my breath, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6796 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Can you move the bettas out and just let the fry stay?  Or can you suck them up into a cup? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, after Methuselah died in the act of love, we decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          introduce Falling Leaf to Tanzanite in the Community tank to get them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          accustomed to each other before trying to breed them.  The stuff I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          been reading lately recommends you give them a week or so to get used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to each other.  So, today I go in to move them into their breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank, and what do I see, but a flurry of betta movement in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thickest part of the plants, followed by eggs floating downwards, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tanzanite zipping around scooping them up in his mouth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I guess it's too late to move them now...hope something comes of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this.  The water temp is between 80-82 degrees, the filter is on its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lowest flow, and all of the fish except for the platy, cories, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          guppy fry are out of there...so maybe, just maybe we'll get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          out of this...not holding my breath, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6797 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Marineland Light Timer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's why I always say get the cheap light timers from the hardware section of the local w-mart.  If it is made for aquariums, it is almost always more expensive and more complicated.  Why marineland would even make such things is a mystery. :)  Maybe you could ask the people at the store to help you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I just got a Marineland brand light timer and the instructions are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            very limited--I can't seem to get it to work.  I have it set to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            time of day, and I have tried to leave it on both "switches" on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            top but it never seems to work?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does anyone have any suggestions with this product?  Many thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6798 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cynthia,  You mention that all of the fish are out of there, but I assume that the male Betta is still there.  Can you get the Platy and the Guppy fry out of there?  If not, they will probably start eating the Betta fry as they become free swimming. The female Betta should have been removed shortly after spawning, which I assume you've done or she may get beaten up.                                                             You obviously can't remove the male Betta yet, as he is needed to guard the bubble nest and retrieve any fry that drop out of the nest to the bottom, and replace them in the nest (until they are free-swimming).                                                                  I don't think the cory poses much of a problem, but keep an eye on him.  After the fry are free swimming, its best to remove the male as his guarding interests will soon disappear and he may start eating the fry as well.                                                    I hope you already have an infusoria culture and/or green water going already, for the fry's first food, unless you plan on using newly hatched brine shrimp.  The San Francisco shrimp eggs, being smaller shrimp, would be better (smaller) at this stage for the fry than the Utah (Salt Lake) shrimp eggs, who's naupli hatch out larger.  The Betta fry are tiny (little slivers); only about 1/5 the size of new-born Guppy fry.  Lots of luck with them.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6799 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, Methuselah at least, is supposed to stay with the eggs and fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            or they will suffocate when they hatch. They hatch in about two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            days, then hang tail downwards, breathing in the bubble nest. He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            catches those that fall and puts them back in. So he has to stay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Falling leaf would have to go into the hex, since our red finned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            shark likes to shred her fins...but she is content, now that she has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            mated, to stay away from him, and he isn't bothering her...so I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            just going to leave well enough alone for now.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Can you move the bettas out and just let the fry stay? Or can you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            suck them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > up into a cup?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6800 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            URGH! This is why I should never type when I'm hopped up on nyquil.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It isn't a platy that is in with them...it is a pleco. Sigh. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            don't think he'll pose any problem. The guppy fry are newborns and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            can't get to them. We have infusoria, and the lady at the fish store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tole me she also uses hard boiled egg yolk dissolved in water, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            we'll use that, too. The fact that we use live plants also helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oh, and about my previous post...strike Methuselah, and insert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tanzanite...Jeesh. I'm gonna go back to bed and cough up a lung now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6801 From: Ashley Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What they mean by letting them see each other before spawning is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            place their fish bowls or containers close to one another so they see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            each other. When the female "bars up" or shows lines that darken on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            her body you know she's ready to spawn. I would personally use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            huricane vase in his tank so that she can get acclimated to the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            before she's released.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have tried spawning bettas before, very successful actual spawns but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the eggs didn't get fertilized like they should have. Make sure you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            remove the female right after spawning so that the male doesn't get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            aggressive with her.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ashley




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            brennemann" <brennewoman@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Well, after Methuselah died in the act of love, we decided to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > introduce Falling Leaf to Tanzanite in the Community tank to get them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > accustomed to each other before trying to breed them. The stuff I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > been reading lately recommends you give them a week or so to get used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > to each other. So, today I go in to move them into their breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > tank, and what do I see, but a flurry of betta movement in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > thickest part of the plants, followed by eggs floating downwards, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Tanzanite zipping around scooping them up in his mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I guess it's too late to move them now...hope something comes of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > this. The water temp is between 80-82 degrees, the filter is on its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > lowest flow, and all of the fish except for the platy, cories, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > guppy fry are out of there...so maybe, just maybe we'll get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > out of this...not holding my breath, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6802 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I removed my male as soon as he started eating eggs out of the nest.  The fry that were born (probably 40-50) were able to stay at the top to breath on their own. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Well, Methuselah at least, is supposed to stay with the eggs and fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              or they will suffocate when they hatch.  They hatch in about two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              days, then hang tail downwards, breathing in the bubble nest.  He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              catches those that fall and puts them back in.  So he has to stay. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Falling leaf would have to go into the hex, since our red finned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              shark likes to shred her fins...but she is content, now that she has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mated, to stay away from him, and he isn't bothering her...so I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              just going to leave well enough alone for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6803 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: adventures in betta breeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you use the hard boiled egg yoke, squeeze it through a handkerchief.  What not to over feed it, as it can foul the water  (as can a poor culture of infusoria).  Alterrnate with green water -- stand a jar or two of aquarium water in a window.  If you have the room, maybe you can net & move the Betta fry,  since you can't get the Guppy fry out of there.  Otherwise, you're going to have some mighty fat Guppies.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6804 From: Faithe Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              into disasters :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6805 From: Faithe Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Anyone know of one?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of snails I cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the tank it dies). So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good resources.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6806 From: straubtyler Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              have you ever tryed aponogetons you can buy them as dry bulds a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              walmart. you just drop them in thetank and in a few weeks they grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              into really harty plants. since they are completly dryed up i dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              think they could have any snailes in them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of snails I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the tank it dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6807 From: astyanax00000 Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A few suggestions:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. Buy the dried bulbs you'll find at most LFS's. I have used them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              with varyings success.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. PetCo now has these grown plants on the shelf, using moist gel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (kind of like a cigar humidifier) to keep the roots moist. They have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              a limited shelf life, but have no snail exposure. I haven't tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              them yet, but they seem to be in decent condition.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              3. Most loaches and botias will eat snails, not just clown loaches.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Have you considered something a bit more hardy (such as the Yoyo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              loach)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good luck!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Asty

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of snails I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the tank it dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6808 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Faithe,  Since you've never had these two Angels spawn (or make any attempt to?), one possibility is that they are two males and that they are sparring over territory, although I don't know how long you've had them.  Angels, as any Cichlid, can vary as to disposition.  With his possible territoriality, this could be the reason why you're finding your Clown Loaches dead, as hec may be attacking them as they come into his territory and they may not know what he decides are his boundaries.  This, of course, is just one scenario.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6809 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Piranha
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My big Piranha killed it,s tank mate the other week. They were both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              bought at the same time out of the same tank. So I take it they where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              siblings. When I bought them they was only about 1inch, the 1 I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              left is going on 8 to 9inch. They are kept in a 50 imp gal tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Since the death of his tank mate he as started getting like a peeling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              skin affect. Which he let,s me rub off. He his also not eating like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              it did. I feed him on frozen gamma lance fish. My question is is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              peeling and lack of eating down to stress. It seems ok still coming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              for its belly rubbed. It,s partner was about 7inch. I have add them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              about 3years.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ps before anybody tells me it is dangerous to put my hand in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank I have been doing it since they were baby,s and they only see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              the hand as something to clean the tank. When it comes to feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              they never see where the food is coming from

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cheers for any help in advance Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6810 From: Aranel Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Sponges?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The other day I bought some carwash sponges at Wal-mart and cut them up to use in my filters. I had read that they worked really well, and are of course much cheaper than regular filters. They're doing great so far, but they were really thick, so I had to cut them in half. The water is still kind of running over the top, so I was wondering how thick should I cut them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6811 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last week I noticed some feeder guppy's swimming at the top of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              tank than noticed them disappearing. than today I noticed my favorite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              male fancy guppy was gone and the catfish had this huge belly. He is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              in time out all by himself. Anyone want a bad catfish!!!!!!!!!! =:O(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm so sad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6812 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Sponges?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Pretty thin, less than a 1/4 inch.  They aren't much more dense than what is made for a sponge filter though.  The water doesn't really have to go through the sponge, just run over it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The other day I bought some carwash sponges at Wal-mart and cut them up to use in my filters. I had read that they worked really well, and are of course much cheaper than regular filters. They're doing great so far, but they were really thick, so I had to cut them in half. The water is still kind of running over the top, so I was wondering how thick should I cut them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6813 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Sponges?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Is'nt a purpose of a sponge-filter to filter biologically? If the interior surface of a sponge designed for aquarium filtration offers surfaces for beneficial-bacteria to colonize, buying any other sponge for economy, that does'nt even allow water to pass through would'nt be economical if you could buy something cheaper. But then the benefit of mechanical and biological filtration would be lost to economy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Pretty thin, less than a 1/4 inch. They aren't much more dense than what is made for a sponge filter though. The water doesn't really have to go through the sponge, just run over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The other day I bought some carwash sponges at Wal-mart and cut them up to use in my filters. I had read that they worked really well, and are of course much cheaper than regular filters. They're doing great so far, but they were really thick, so I had to cut them in half. The water is still kind of running over the top, so I was wondering how thick should I cut them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -Aranel






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6814 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                most catfish will eat anything that fits in its mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i wopuldn't call an animal that does what he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                supposed to do bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Last week I noticed some feeder guppy's swimming at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the top of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank than noticed them disappearing. than today I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > noticed my favorite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > male fancy guppy was gone and the catfish had this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > huge belly. He is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in time out all by himself. Anyone want a bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > catfish!!!!!!!!!! =:O(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm so sad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6815 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Sponges?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the sponge is the first layer of filtration, and if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water is not passing through it, it will not catch the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sediment and your main filter pad will clog much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                faster. it is also a biologic filter, and if water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not penetrating it, there will only be bacteria on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                surface instead fo throughout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The other day I bought some carwash sponges at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Wal-mart and cut them up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to use in my filters. I had read that they worked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > really well, and are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of course much cheaper than regular filters. They're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > doing great so far,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but they were really thick, so I had to cut them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > half. The water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > still kind of running over the top, so I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wondering how thick should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I cut them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6816 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Piranha
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the peeilign is more likely bacteria on the skin. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water conditions have dropped, his slime coat may have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thinned or appear to be peeling. make sure to test
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                all of your parameters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- scimitarss12003 <scimitarss12003@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > My big Piranha killed it,s tank mate the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > week. They were both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bought at the same time out of the same tank. So I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > take it they where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > siblings. When I bought them they was only about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 1inch, the 1 I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > left is going on 8 to 9inch. They are kept in a 50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > imp gal tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Since the death of his tank mate he as started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > getting like a peeling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > skin affect. Which he let,s me rub off. He his also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > not eating like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it did. I feed him on frozen gamma lance fish. My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > question is is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > peeling and lack of eating down to stress. It seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ok still coming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for its belly rubbed. It,s partner was about 7inch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have add them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about 3years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ps before anybody tells me it is dangerous to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my hand in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank I have been doing it since they were baby,s and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they only see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the hand as something to clean the tank. When it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > comes to feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they never see where the food is coming from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cheers for any help in advance Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6817 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you are only putting in 1 loach ata a time, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                may be the problem. i could not get them to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                until i put them in groups of 3 or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > snails I cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it dies). So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6818 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                angels get territorial once they get above a silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dollar size, and 2 with no females will still fight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i would either get 4-5 females in the tank with them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                or separate them. i posted about teh loaches too. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have never had success with them without having 3-5 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them, and then a few still die. they don't handle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stress of moving very well. most others do though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > beautiful Angles, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > never seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my Angels fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is fine, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other fish is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one who might have been killing all the clown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > finding them dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6819 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I understood the little feeder guppies but my male fancy guppy was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                quite big. The catfish is only a few little bits bigger than he was.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                He will now have his own tank now. Bully =:O( hehehe



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most catfish will eat anything that fits in its mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i wopuldn't call an animal that does what he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > supposed to do bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6820 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                actually I wasn't sure if it was the catfish or the new flower horn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                or I would of taken him out a few days ago.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most catfish will eat anything that fits in its mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i wopuldn't call an animal that does what he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > supposed to do bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6821 From: traceyhanson Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one went missing. I looked everywhere for him (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rocks around) and could not find him and put it down to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a sudden he appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                again today - looking very unhappy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not interested in food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and when he swims he seems to be putting in a great deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but not actually moving very far or very fast. He also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have a bit of woolly stuff on his body. Its hard to get a good look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The other fish have never annoyed him and he has always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                get his fair share of food. The local pet shop diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and sold me some medication (which I have already used) and advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear. I had a gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason - although it was chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a fair bit by my red tailed shark. The tank levels, temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                seem to be at normal level. There are plenty of plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could it be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                else? The loaches are my favourite and I hate to have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6822 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if there is white all over his body you need to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for bacterial infections...i seem to be saying this a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lot lately. bacterial infections occur whenever there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is a change in water quality, or just poor quality in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                general. try something more natural like melafix.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one went missing. I looked everywhere for him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > rocks around) and could not find him and put it down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sudden he appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > again today - looking very unhappy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > interested in food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and when he swims he seems to be putting in a great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but not actually moving very far or very fast. He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have a bit of woolly stuff on his body. Its hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get a good look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The other fish have never annoyed him and he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get his fair share of food. The local pet shop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and sold me some medication (which I have already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > used) and advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I had a gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > although it was chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a fair bit by my red tailed shark. The tank levels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seem to be at normal level. There are plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > else? The loaches are my favourite and I hate to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6823 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flower horns are extremely aggressive and should not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be with anythig but cats and cichlids, as they often
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                empty tanks quickly. same rule too :if it fits in his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mouth it is food, and if it is in his way it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ramming toy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > actually I wasn't sure if it was the catfish or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > new flower horn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or I would of taken him out a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > most catfish will eat anything that fits in its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i wopuldn't call an animal that does what he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > supposed to do bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6824 From: paul helms Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                guppies and anything that is community fish will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eaten by the flowerhorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > actually I wasn't sure if it was the catfish or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > new flower horn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or I would of taken him out a few days ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > most catfish will eat anything that fits in its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > i wopuldn't call an animal that does what he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > supposed to do bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6825 From: traceyhanson Date: 11/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is not white all over the body, which is why I was not sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what it was. He has one patch of wolly stuff just under his tail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and one patch on his side - both so small you can only actually see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                it if you look really hard. I have had a few cases of white spot in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the past, so I try to keep a really good eye out for any fish with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                anything white showing up on it! I will try the melafix and see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what happens.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if there is white all over his body you need to treat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for bacterial infections...i seem to be saying this a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lot lately. bacterial infections occur whenever there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is a change in water quality, or just poor quality in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > general. try something more natural like melafix.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > one went missing. I looked everywhere for him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > rocks around) and could not find him and put it down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > sudden he appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > again today - looking very unhappy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > interested in food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and when he swims he seems to be putting in a great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > but not actually moving very far or very fast. He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have a bit of woolly stuff on his body. Its hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > get a good look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > The other fish have never annoyed him and he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > get his fair share of food. The local pet shop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > and sold me some medication (which I have already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > used) and advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I had a gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > although it was chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > a fair bit by my red tailed shark. The tank levels,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > seem to be at normal level. There are plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > else? The loaches are my favourite and I hate to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6826 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Faithe,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Firstly in my experience the Angels unless very large and the clowns very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                small, cannot kill the clowns as the clowns are much faster and can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                boisterous then the angels. They can however have the capability to kill a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                clown loach if they have laid eggs and are protecting the eggs or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                spawning site. I have a pair of angels in a community with 3-4.5" clown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                loaches and it is only when the angels spawn, that they can inflict a injury
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to the clowns. Only in 1 occasion that the clown was inflicted with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                serious injury and that was when my orange chromides and angels both laid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eggs at just 6" apart. Dangerous situation and I had to remove both their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eggs ASAP to avoid them killing each other. Not sure of the injury was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                caused by the angels or the chromides but I would myself vote the chromides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Male and females do have a fight very often before spawning and usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                results in their fins a bit torn and nipped. Usually before the spawning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                female is the one that gets nipped and after the spawning when the eggs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gone (eaten by either them or other fish) it's the male that gets battered.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It is very much possible that you have missed the eggs, in a community you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will not reach the stage where the fry will hatch or even the eggs surviving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more then 2 days. Just keep a watch what they are doing. If they seem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                friendly to each other even once, check for hidden spots where there could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be eggs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On the other hand if they both are males, this is a disaster situation in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                small tank (less then 48") and the males will not tolerate each other within
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                visible distance. Since it is impossible to differentiate males from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                females except when spawning, adding more angels could cause more problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                then help. If it is a 48"+ tank, then even 2 males should be fine in there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Keep watching what goes on and if you don't think that they get friendly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                even a day after 2 - 3 weeks and one of them is suffering very bad, then it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                is best to give him away. I had to give away 1 of my males when things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                started to get out of control.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As for clowns, as others have suggested that they don't take shipping very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                well, this could be a reason why they are diying rather then the angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                killing them. How long have they been in the tank? How old is your tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Faithe [mailto:faithe214@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 10 November 2004 17:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish question



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                into disasters :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Faithe








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6827 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Flowerhorn and Fancy guppy??????? Who in the world suggested you that this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                can work? What catfish is it and how big? How big is the flower horn?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As Paul suggested, only possible companions with flowerhorn are catfish of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                similar sizes or other cichlids of similar or large size and aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a community of fish called "Tank Busters". Other then large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                predators, aggressive central American cichlids (including flowerhorn) rule
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this category of fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A Fancy guppy is also not a good community fish as they are most susceptible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to nipping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: mommy2acdhsurvivor [mailto:CK147@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 11 November 2004 04:24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fancy guppy



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                actually I wasn't sure if it was the catfish or the new flower horn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                or I would of taken him out a few days ago.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most catfish will eat anything that fits in its mouth.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i wopuldn't call an animal that does what he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > supposed to do bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lol









                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6828 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tracey,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This looks like the loach got stuck on one of the bogwoods or the hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                logs and has just managed to come out of it. Loaches are very much capable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of going into hiding for days and not visible even when searching. And then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                suddenly they re-appear but when they do, they are in good health.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you have started treatment for fin-rot then complete the treatment and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                see if it gets any better but the amount of stress that looks on him, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would vote it to getting stuck somewhere and just managed to come out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Add some melafix to the tank and keep the lights off for a couple of days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                His disinterest in feeding is also a great worry. If he starts eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                something then for sure he will get better, if not, you may lose him. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                some live foods like bloodworms to lure him.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: traceyhanson [mailto:traceyhanson@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 11 November 2004 04:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is it Fin Rot?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                one went missing. I looked everywhere for him (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rocks around) and could not find him and put it down to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a sudden he appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                again today - looking very unhappy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not interested in food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and when he swims he seems to be putting in a great deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but not actually moving very far or very fast. He also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have a bit of woolly stuff on his body. Its hard to get a good look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or plants.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The other fish have never annoyed him and he has always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                get his fair share of food. The local pet shop diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and sold me some medication (which I have already used) and advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear. I had a gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason - although it was chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a fair bit by my red tailed shark. The tank levels, temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                seem to be at normal level. There are plenty of plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could it be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                else? The loaches are my favourite and I hate to have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly appreciated.










                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6829 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of snails I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the tank it dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Have you tried soaking your plants in a bucket with snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                away. It only takes about half hour and the things will have all been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                knocked out then they simple fall to the bottom of the bucket.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                leaving you with nice clean plants. One word of warning it will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                take out any eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6830 From: Ashley Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Funny you ask this. I was just doing a ton of reading on Angels online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday and here's what I found...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://websvirginia.com/angels/spawning/index.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Doesn't really determine if you have two males or a pair but you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                try to see if one looks "heavy" or bulging up with eggs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good luck!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6831 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's a perfect behavior that my pair of angels exhibit except for that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                female never looks swollen with the eggs. They do however spawn regularly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                every 25-30 days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ashley [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: 11 November 2004 13:08
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Angel Fish question



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Funny you ask this. I was just doing a ton of reading on Angels online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday and here's what I found...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://websvirginia.com/angels/spawning/index.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Doesn't really determine if you have two males or a pair but you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                try to see if one looks "heavy" or bulging up with eggs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good luck!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Faithe








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6832 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It would seem that nim is on the right track with your Loach going into hiding, getting stuck and just now coming out.  It it possible, with your lifting rocks and driftwood in your search for him, you may have accidentally partially pinned him somewhere and he had to struggle to get out.  He may have partially buried himself in the gravel somewhere, so you didn't see him.  His torn fins and apparent weakness may be the result of his struggling to free himself.  The cotton-like tufts are Fungus and is generally a secondary infection to some other stress (perhaps he knocked some scales off in his struggle).  There are two types of fin & tail rot, one is bacterial caused and the other is fungal caused.  If the medication you are using is for fungal-caused fin & tail rot, the same medication should clear up the cotton-like fungus as well.  The Mela-Fix with it is a good idea.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6833 From: bryants4god Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My oranda's eat all my pest snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 9:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you are only putting in 1 loach ata a time, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                may be the problem.  i could not get them to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                until i put them in groups of 3 or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > snails I cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank it dies).  So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6834 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah I read online that they are aggressive but this one for now is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                timid he was in the same tank with a crap load of feeder goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                about the same size as him. So I think he might be used to other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (for now). For now he's still a only a little bigger than an inch and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                his mouth is not to big. I'm gonna upload some pictures of him he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stays right at the one part of the tank with some algae so it was hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to get a good picture. his top fin sticks up and is spiky and he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                orange eyes.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flower horns are extremely aggressive and should not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > be with anythig but cats and cichlids, as they often
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > empty tanks quickly. same rule too :if it fits in his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mouth it is food, and if it is in his way it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ramming toy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6835 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I forgot the pictures are under the folder MELANIE'S PICS. I plan on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                trading him (the maybe flower horn) to the petstore for another albino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                clawed frog.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > guppies and anything that is community fish will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eaten by the flowerhorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6836 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well I had kept feeder goldfish in my tank aswell at one point and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                while looking for a healthy looking feeder goldfish I saw a greyish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fish with little spots all over and orange eyes. I asked what he was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and they didn't know! Since he was in with all the goldfish I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paid 0.25 cents for him. I just saw some fish at the pet store that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                looked like him and the pet store said they where flower horns and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cost $12.75 a piece. He doesn't have the series of spots in the middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of his body but just one big one around his gill on both sides and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                alot of little orangy looking dots all over his body. The catfish is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wild caught yellow bullhead, he is about and 1 1/2 inches long. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flower horn is a little over and inch long the size of a big feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                goldfish but still sold as a small feeder. I think I am just gonna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stick to a tank full of guppies and trade off the catfish and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flower horn. I have uploaded some bad pictures of him in the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                MELANIE'S PICS. Maybe you can help me identify him. thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Flowerhorn and Fancy guppy??????? Who in the world suggested you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can work? What catfish is it and how big? How big is the flower horn?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > As Paul suggested, only possible companions with flowerhorn are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                catfish of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > similar sizes or other cichlids of similar or large size and aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > There is a community of fish called "Tank Busters". Other then large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > predators, aggressive central American cichlids (including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                flowerhorn) rule
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this category of fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > A Fancy guppy is also not a good community fish as they are most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                susceptible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to nipping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6837 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Angelfish Problem - puffy face
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have an angelfish that just got a puffy swollen area with a red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tint right above the mouth...it covers the brow between his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eyes...does anyone have any idea what this could be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6838 From: red-eye Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                great links - thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At 03:20 AM 10/28/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Here are a couple of good links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/areajava.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/converter.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: scimitarss12003
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 10/28/04 12:13:12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Formula
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could any of you tell me if I have got the formula for working out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the number of imperial gallons a tank will hold correct. LxDxH in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                inch,s divded by 277.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Cheers Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The "vets_for_herps" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vets_for_herps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6839 From: red-eye Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Freshwater Plant Lighting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am on the blue end...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a plexi tank and consider cleaning the algea with a plastic credit card..part of the deal. I can also say it is the best use for a credit card ..LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                red-eye



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                At 03:36 PM 11/8/2004, you wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've just read that in freshwater aquariums, lighting favoring the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                blue end of the spectrum is more conducive to algae growth, while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lighting favoring the red end is more beneficial to the plants and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                less so for algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wonder if there's any truth to this. Any thoughts?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > use exactly what you do with the saltwater....it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > perfect, especiallyi f you ar using compacts.  shoot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for 2 -3 watts per gallon and you will do great...paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- astyanax00000 <bill@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I may be setting up a plant tank in the very near
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > future, and was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > wondering about full-spectrum lighting setups for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > freshwater plant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > As a saltwater enthusiast, I'm comlpetely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > comfortable with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > combination of blue actinic and full-spectrum bulbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to give reef
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > inhabitants the light they need and to really bring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > out the color.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > In the freshwater plant world, I'm noticing that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > commonly-used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > spectrum of bulb produces an ugly greenish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > yellowish color to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Is there any reason I shouldn't use a reef-style
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > combination (full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > spectrum plus actinic) of lighting for such a tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.sulcata-station.org
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6840 From: paul helms Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Angelfish Problem - puffy face
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                could be popeye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have an angelfish that just got a puffy swollen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > area with a red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tint right above the mouth...it covers the brow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > between his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eyes...does anyone have any idea what this could be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6841 From: paul helms Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy guppy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the tail section looks too long to me to be a flower
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                horn, but i genrerally only see them when they are 8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                inches plus. looks a bit like a pond fish or chub to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                me. dunno for sure

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- mommy2acdhsurvivor <CK147@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Well I had kept feeder goldfish in my tank aswell at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one point and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > while looking for a healthy looking feeder goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I saw a greyish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fish with little spots all over and orange eyes. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > asked what he was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and they didn't know! Since he was in with all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > goldfish I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paid 0.25 cents for him. I just saw some fish at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > pet store that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > looked like him and the pet store said they where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flower horns and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cost $12.75 a piece. He doesn't have the series of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > spots in the middle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of his body but just one big one around his gill on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > both sides and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > alot of little orangy looking dots all over his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > body. The catfish is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wild caught yellow bullhead, he is about and 1 1/2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > inches long. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flower horn is a little over and inch long the size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of a big feeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > goldfish but still sold as a small feeder. I think I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > am just gonna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > stick to a tank full of guppies and trade off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > catfish and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flower horn. I have uploaded some bad pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > him in the folder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > MELANIE'S PICS. Maybe you can help me identify him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Flowerhorn and Fancy guppy??????? Who in the world
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > suggested you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > can work? What catfish is it and how big? How big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is the flower horn?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > As Paul suggested, only possible companions with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flowerhorn are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > catfish of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > similar sizes or other cichlids of similar or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > large size and aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > There is a community of fish called "Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Busters". Other then large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > predators, aggressive central American cichlids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > (including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > flowerhorn) rule
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > this category of fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > A Fancy guppy is also not a good community fish as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they are most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > susceptible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to nipping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6842 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Piranha
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Dave,  I guess you know your Pirana pretty well, but I think putting your hand in the tank is a little risky.  He may not bite you this year, but maybe next year.  There's always a first time for everything, after all, that was only the first time he turned on his tankmate/sibling.  A buddy of mine got bit by his Gold Pirana of about the same size.  Luckily it wasn't serious.  I had a 16" Black Pirana that was very friendly, and yes, they get to know you, but I would never take such a chance. LOL,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6843 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For eliminating most of your snails, or at least keeping them under control until you can get some Loaches established; try floating a lettuce leaf in the tank overnight.  They will gather on it like bears to honey.  Remove the lettuce and repeat as needed.  You may not get all of them, but at least for now you won't be over-run.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6844 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/11/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Melanie,  I just went up to your photo site.  Your mystery fish is not a Flowerhorn (in fact not even a Cichlid), but something closely related.  Its a Blue-Spotted (Diamond) Sunfish.  Its found from Massachusetts to Florida and gets to about 4" long.  It does have a small mouth, even when full grown, but any 4" fish would be capable of eating guppies, especially smaller ones.  Not that it would become mean. but that's the natural thing to do as it will see the guppies as food.  Right now, your culprit is the Catfish.  Any Bullhead Catfish such as you have, have hugh mouths and are able to eat just about anything it can fit in that mouth.  By the way, they get much bigger.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6845 From: paul helms Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                glad you knew what that was ray.....looked like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                stream fish to me too, but i am in CA and my best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                guess was a creek chub.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Melanie, I just went up to your photo site. Your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mystery fish is not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Flowerhorn (in fact not even a Cichlid), but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > something closely related. Its a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Blue-Spotted (Diamond) Sunfish. Its found from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Massachusetts to Florida and gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to about 4" long. It does have a small mouth, even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > when full grown, but any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > 4" fish would be capable of eating guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > especially smaller ones. Not that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it would become mean. but that's the natural thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to do as it will see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > guppies as food. Right now, your culprit is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Catfish. Any Bullhead Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > such as you have, have hugh mouths and are able to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eat just about anything it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can fit in that mouth. By the way, they get much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bigger. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6846 From: Nancy A. Hanne Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: guppy pectoral fin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Over the past couple days I've had four guppies die. They lose the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                use of one of their pectoral fins and die from there. I don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what this is. Is it a disease? I've checked the water, changed 1/4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of it, everything is OK. I did add two new fish to the tank 4 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ago, so I suspect it's from their arrival. I have a 12-gal tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                now 5 guppies remaining. Anyone ever seen this before? Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6847 From: shailendra Indulkar Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Cleaning Tank / System
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Which is the best sequence in washing the system?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Acid wash,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chlorination
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                formaline
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                detergent wash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wash with clean water

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If a particular type of Mixwater (acid or chlorine or formaline) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be kept for hours or day At what ppm it will give clean /good result?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                what are advantages /risk of selecting a particular wash?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ManyThanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Indulkar Shailendra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                India (Egypt :+20105882514)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6848 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Or maybe since she couldn't find him and she went looking she actually freed him... Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It would seem that nim is on the right track with your Loach going into hiding, getting stuck and just now coming out.  It it possible, with your lifting rocks and driftwood in your search for him, you may have accidentally partially pinned him somewhere and he had to struggle to get out.  He may have partially buried himself in the gravel somewhere, so you didn't see him.  His torn fins and apparent weakness may be the result of his struggling to free himself.  The cotton-like tufts are Fungus and is generally a secondary infection to some other stress (perhaps he knocked some scales off in his struggle).  There are two types of fin & tail rot, one is bacterial caused and the other is fungal caused.  If the medication you are using is for fungal-caused fin & tail rot, the same medication should clear up the cotton-like fungus as well.  The Mela-Fix with it is a good idea.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6849 From: traceyhanson Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think you may have been right with the getting stuck idea, as one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of my other clown loaches got stuck last night. It is under a rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have had in the tank for over 12 months now and they have never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                got stuck in - but I think they have finally got to a size where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they can get in under the rock, but not out. The one I found this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                morning had actually burrowed into the gravel under the rock as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (probably trying to get out) so that would explain why I didnt see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the first one there when I looked. Needless to say this rock has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                now been taken out of the tank, and I will be carefully checking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                every other item in the tank too. I think the gourami dying was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                just a coincidence - I never have had much luck with gouramis!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My sick loach is starting to look much better now. I have used the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                melafix, and fed him some bloodworms - which is the only thing he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will eat at the moment - and he is started to swim around a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and come out of hiding every now and again. His white woolly stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                has pretty much gone too. I will continue with the melafix and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                other medication for a little while though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My local shop was not much help - didnt want to sell me the melafix
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as "we dont think it will help" and said the bloodworms were a waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of money as if he wasnt eating he wouldnt eat them anyway - the next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                question was then "so, whats a clown loach look like?"! I wont be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                going back there again..... I ended up going to another shop over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the other side of Canberra - where at least the people were helpful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and friendly and knew what they were talking about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks to everyone for all their advice and help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tracey,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > This looks like the loach got stuck on one of the bogwoods or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > logs and has just managed to come out of it. Loaches are very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                capable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of going into hiding for days and not visible even when searching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > suddenly they re-appear but when they do, they are in good health.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you have started treatment for fin-rot then complete the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                treatment and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > see if it gets any better but the amount of stress that looks on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                him, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would vote it to getting stuck somewhere and just managed to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Add some melafix to the tank and keep the lights off for a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > His disinterest in feeding is also a great worry. If he starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > something then for sure he will get better, if not, you may lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                him. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > some live foods like bloodworms to lure him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: traceyhanson [mailto:traceyhanson@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: 11 November 2004 04:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one went missing. I looked everywhere for him (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > rocks around) and could not find him and put it down to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a sudden he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > again today - looking very unhappy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not interested in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and when he swims he seems to be putting in a great deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > but not actually moving very far or very fast. He also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have a bit of woolly stuff on his body. Its hard to get a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The other fish have never annoyed him and he has always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get his fair share of food. The local pet shop diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and sold me some medication (which I have already used) and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear. I had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason - although it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a fair bit by my red tailed shark. The tank levels, temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > seem to be at normal level. There are plenty of plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could it be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > else? The loaches are my favourite and I hate to have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6850 From: Sarah Harrison Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Glad everything has gone well for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We had a similar incident to you but don't know how it started. We have lost 2 clowns in the last week to whitespot. Only them and the Mollies in the tank have it. Well we are now down to 1 clown and he barely comes out into view. He looks worse by the day like the others did and he refuses to eat anything. We have done treatment for whitespot and also did a treatment with Melafix, but didn't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sarah & Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 11/12/04 22:10:30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think you may have been right with the getting stuck idea, as one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of my other clown loaches got stuck last night.  It is under a rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had in the tank for over 12 months now and they have never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  got stuck in - but I think they have finally got to a size where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  they can get in under the rock, but not out.  The one I found this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  morning had actually burrowed into the gravel under the rock as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (probably trying to get out) so that would explain why I didnt see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the first one there when I looked.  Needless to say this rock has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  now been taken out of the tank, and I will be carefully checking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  every other item in the tank too.  I think the gourami dying was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  just a coincidence - I never have had much luck with gouramis!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My sick loach is starting to look much better now.  I have used the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  melafix, and fed him some bloodworms - which is the only thing he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  will eat at the moment - and he is started to swim around a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and come out of hiding every now and again.  His white woolly stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  has pretty much gone too.  I will continue with the melafix and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  other medication for a little while though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My local shop was not much help - didnt want to sell me the melafix
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  as "we dont think it will help" and said the bloodworms were a waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of money as if he wasnt eating he wouldnt eat them anyway - the next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  question was then "so, whats a clown loach look like?"!  I wont be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  going back there again.....  I ended up going to another shop over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  the other side of Canberra - where at least the people were helpful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and friendly and knew what they were talking about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thanks to everyone for all their advice and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Tracey,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > This looks like the loach got stuck on one of the bogwoods or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > logs and has just managed to come out of it. Loaches are very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  capable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of going into hiding for days and not visible even when searching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > suddenly they re-appear but when they do, they are in good health.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > If you have started treatment for fin-rot then complete the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  treatment and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > see if it gets any better but the amount of stress that looks on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  him, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > would vote it to getting stuck somewhere and just managed to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Add some melafix to the tank and keep the lights off for a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  of days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > His disinterest in feeding is also a great worry. If he starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > something then for sure he will get better, if not, you may lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  him. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > some live foods like bloodworms to lure him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: traceyhanson [mailto:traceyhanson@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: 11 November 2004 04:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is it Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > one went missing.  I looked everywhere for him (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > rocks around) and could not find him and put it down to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a sudden he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > again today - looking very unhappy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not interested in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and when he swims he seems to be putting in a great deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > but not actually moving very far or very fast.  He also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have a bit of woolly stuff on his body.  Its hard to get a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The other fish have never annoyed him and he has always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > get his fair share of food.  The local pet shop diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and sold me some medication (which I have already used) and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear.  I had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason - although it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > a fair bit by my red tailed shark.  The tank levels, temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > seem to be at normal level.  There are plenty of plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could it be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > else?  The loaches are my favourite and I hate to have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6851 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A small amount of bleach in water, then plain water several times.  It will sterilize anything in the tank.  Detergent would be bad.  Formalin would be unneeded.  Acid seems a bit odd of a choice to me.  Bleach will do it all.  Just wash it out well with water and dechlorinator until it doesn't smell like chlorine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Which is the best sequence in washing the system?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Acid wash,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chlorination
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    formaline
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    detergent wash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wash with clean water

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If a particular type of Mixwater (acid or chlorine or formaline) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be kept for hours or day At what ppm it will give clean /good result?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    what are advantages /risk of selecting a particular wash?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ManyThanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Indulkar Shailendra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    India (Egypt :+20105882514)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6852 From: paul helms Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Is it Fin Rot? - getting better now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    one thing you can tell them if you do go back is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if the blood worms are live they will survive until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    eaten.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I think you may have been right with the getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stuck idea, as one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of my other clown loaches got stuck last night. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is under a rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have had in the tank for over 12 months now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they have never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > got stuck in - but I think they have finally got to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > a size where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they can get in under the rock, but not out. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one I found this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > morning had actually burrowed into the gravel under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the rock as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (probably trying to get out) so that would explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > why I didnt see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the first one there when I looked. Needless to say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this rock has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > now been taken out of the tank, and I will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > carefully checking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > every other item in the tank too. I think the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gourami dying was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just a coincidence - I never have had much luck with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gouramis!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My sick loach is starting to look much better now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have used the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > melafix, and fed him some bloodworms - which is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > only thing he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will eat at the moment - and he is started to swim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > around a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and come out of hiding every now and again. His
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > white woolly stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > has pretty much gone too. I will continue with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > melafix and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other medication for a little while though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My local shop was not much help - didnt want to sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > me the melafix
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > as "we dont think it will help" and said the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bloodworms were a waste
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of money as if he wasnt eating he wouldnt eat them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anyway - the next
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > question was then "so, whats a clown loach look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > like?"! I wont be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > going back there again..... I ended up going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > another shop over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the other side of Canberra - where at least the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > people were helpful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and friendly and knew what they were talking about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > thanks to everyone for all their advice and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Tracey,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > This looks like the loach got stuck on one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bogwoods or the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > logs and has just managed to come out of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Loaches are very much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > capable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of going into hiding for days and not visible even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > when searching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > And then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > suddenly they re-appear but when they do, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in good health.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > If you have started treatment for fin-rot then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > complete the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > treatment and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > see if it gets any better but the amount of stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > that looks on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > him, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > would vote it to getting stuck somewhere and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > managed to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Add some melafix to the tank and keep the lights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > off for a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > His disinterest in feeding is also a great worry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > If he starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > eating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > something then for sure he will get better, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not, you may lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > him. Try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > some live foods like bloodworms to lure him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: traceyhanson [mailto:traceyhanson@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: 11 November 2004 04:57
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fin Rot?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have 3 clown loaches in a community tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > about 10 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > one went missing. I looked everywhere for him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (moved the logs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > rocks around) and could not find him and put it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > down to some very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > efficient cat fish cleaning him up, when all of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sudden he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > again today - looking very unhappy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > His fins and tail look a tiny bit shredded - like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > there have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bits nipped out of them, he seems to just sit on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the bottom of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank and gasp with his mouth wide open, he is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > interested in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and when he swims he seems to be putting in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > great deal of effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > but not actually moving very far or very fast. He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > also seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have a bit of woolly stuff on his body. Its hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to get a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > at him as he is just hiding behind a rock or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The other fish have never annoyed him and he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > always seemed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > get his fair share of food. The local pet shop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > diagnosed fin rot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and sold me some medication (which I have already
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > used) and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > advised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to treat every 3 days until the symptoms disapear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > die about 2 days ago for no apparant reason -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > although it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a fair bit by my red tailed shark. The tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > levels, temp etc all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > seem to be at normal level. There are plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants, hollow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > logs, rocks and caves for the loaches etc to hide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Should I just keep treating for fin rot, or could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it be something
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > else? The loaches are my favourite and I hate to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have one die!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks for your help - any suggestions are greatly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > appreciated.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6853 From: paul helms Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    acid will weaken you silicone as will bleach if used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    too strongly. 1 capful for 30 gallons is more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sufficient. that will kill anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- shailendra Indulkar <indulkarshailu@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Which is the best sequence in washing the system?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Acid wash,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > chlorination
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > formaline
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > detergent wash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wash with clean water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > If a particular type of Mixwater (acid or chlorine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or formaline) is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be kept for hours or day At what ppm it will give
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > clean /good result?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what are advantages /risk of selecting a particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wash?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ManyThanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Indulkar Shailendra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > India (Egypt :+20105882514)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6854 From: worship_hedvvwig Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: ground covers and goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey everyone… I'm pretty new to the list, and to fish keeping as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I set up my first tank in July and it's doing pretty well. It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kind of planted- but with uninteresting plants…. so for a while now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been looking into getting more plants. I really want a ground
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cover- and because of my low wattage lights- I was thinking of maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    getting dwarf Subulata (am I wording correctly?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/LL021.html?id=M6qE9Jpo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do any of you guys have this plant? does it cover pretty well? fast?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I also want to get java moss, but not use it as ground cover. But,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because I will most likely be lazy with controlling the moss, will it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    soon cover the subulata, and kill it? Im not totally sure of what Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    trying to ask here.. will the moss just kind of avoid the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plants- just thread through- and not blanket over? Can it kill other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a goldfish in with my tropical fish. That thing is a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monster! I'm afraid of what it could do to my new plants… will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    goldfish eat java moss? Dwarf subulata? Brazilian Pennywort? Nana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anubias barteri v. nana? Anyone know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any help is appreciated greatly- thank you much!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ALSO- I'm not tooo sure if I was on this list before- like a month or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    two ago… I was the one with the bass, goldfish, tropical fish, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    green water all in one. If anyone remembers me- I got rid of the bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and the green water- so thank you for your advice and your help! thank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    you! thank you! thank you!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    AND-I just discovered people sell green water, and someone on this or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anther fish list actually said I was lucky for growing green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    which I thought was kinda odd… so, is green water desired, is it rare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    or something??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6855 From: Aranel Date: 11/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd like to add a couple of questions, if that's ok. I have sand in my tanks, for my cory cats. (What started off as a mollie tank, has turned into a gourami/cory cats tank.) As you all know, sand isn't that great for plants, and the only thing I can get to grow in it is anacharis. Also I don't have the best lighting. How would java moss do in my tank? I think it's really pretty, and I would like something to make the tank look fuller and more green. It's all sandy and bare right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Aranel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    worship_hedvvwig wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey everyone… I'm pretty new to the list, and to fish keeping as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       I set up my first tank in July and it's doing pretty well. It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kind of planted- but with uninteresting plants…. so for a while now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been looking into getting more plants. I really want a ground
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    cover- and because of my low wattage lights- I was thinking of maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    getting dwarf Subulata (am I wording correctly?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/LL021.html?id=M6qE9Jpo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    do any of you guys have this plant? does it cover pretty well? fast?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also want to get java moss, but not use it as ground cover. But,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because I will most likely be lazy with controlling the moss, will it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    soon cover the subulata, and kill it? Im not totally sure of what Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    trying to ask here.. will the moss just kind of avoid the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plants- just thread through- and not blanket over?  Can it kill other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    plants? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a goldfish in with my tropical fish. That thing is a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    monster! I'm afraid of what it could do to my new plants… will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    goldfish eat java moss? Dwarf subulata? Brazilian Pennywort? Nana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anubias barteri v. nana? Anyone know?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any help is appreciated greatly- thank you much!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6856 From: highwaychilde@yahoo.com Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree with Ray that this is a sunfish, but with one out of focus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    picture and no real identifying information I would be hesitant to ID
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it to species level. There are several native centrarchidae that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    would look identicle to this at this small size. I wouldn't rule out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    orangespotted sunfish or longear sunfish at this point. It would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    help if you could tell if the pectoral fins were pointed or rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and describe the "eartab" more. It is definately a predator. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    in the same family as Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass. Bullheads are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    notorius for cleaning out a tank of other fishes, even other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bullheads only slightly smaller than themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dattilo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, and at 1 inch in size, longears and orangespotted sunfish dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have the extended "eartabs" yet, and their color is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spectacular as pictures you will see on the internet of large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    breeding males.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Melanie, I just went up to your photo site. Your mystery fish is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Flowerhorn (in fact not even a Cichlid), but something closely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    related. Its a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Blue-Spotted (Diamond) Sunfish. Its found from Massachusetts to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Florida and gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to about 4" long. It does have a small mouth, even when full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    grown, but any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 4" fish would be capable of eating guppies, especially smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ones. Not that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it would become mean. but that's the natural thing to do as it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > guppies as food. Right now, your culprit is the Catfish. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Bullhead Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > such as you have, have hugh mouths and are able to eat just about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can fit in that mouth. By the way, they get much bigger. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6857 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Paul,  EXCELLENT point about bleach weakening silicone, if used too strongly.  I doubt that this fact is very widely known.  This is something that hobbyists should keep in mind, that too much of a good thing is not necessarily better.  I have had an occasional tank spring a leak after using too much bleach to disinfect a tank, and have learned the hard way.  When used sparingly, bleach is about the best disinfectant you can use.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6858 From: harry perry Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn. They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Harry 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6859 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What is your turtle tank set-up like? Do you have a UVA/UVB light for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    them? I have 3 Red-eared sliders and don't really know if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hibernate in captivity. Be sure to make sure its not illegal to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wild caught turtles. Turtles do move into a sunny location to bask in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the sun.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ashley




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6860 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From what I understand the grass like plants can be difficult to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    live in your aquarium. I personally haven't tried them "yet" and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hope to try them anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As for the sand, a sand/gravel mixture is good for everything. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    helps plants root as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ashley




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "worship_hedvvwig" <worship_hedvvwig@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hey everyone… I'm pretty new to the list, and to fish keeping as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I set up my first tank in July and it's doing pretty well. It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kind of planted- but with uninteresting plants…. so for a while now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I've been looking into getting more plants. I really want a ground
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cover- and because of my low wattage lights- I was thinking of maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > getting dwarf Subulata (am I wording correctly?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/LL021.html?id=M6qE9Jpo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > do any of you guys have this plant? does it cover pretty well? fast?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I also want to get java moss, but not use it as ground cover. But,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > because I will most likely be lazy with controlling the moss, will it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > soon cover the subulata, and kill it? Im not totally sure of what Im
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trying to ask here.. will the moss just kind of avoid the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants- just thread through- and not blanket over? Can it kill other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > plants?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a goldfish in with my tropical fish. That thing is a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > monster! I'm afraid of what it could do to my new plants… will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > goldfish eat java moss? Dwarf subulata? Brazilian Pennywort? Nana
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Anubias barteri v. nana? Anyone know?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any help is appreciated greatly- thank you much!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ALSO- I'm not tooo sure if I was on this list before- like a month or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > two ago… I was the one with the bass, goldfish, tropical fish, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > green water all in one. If anyone remembers me- I got rid of the bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and the green water- so thank you for your advice and your help! thank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you! thank you! thank you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > AND-I just discovered people sell green water, and someone on this or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anther fish list actually said I was lucky for growing green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > which I thought was kinda odd… so, is green water desired, is it rare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or something??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6861 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Why do people think its oK to joke about turtle soup? I think your humor is very unhumorous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes I am a tad peeved but I'll spare you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I know a lot about turtles &.....


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Those turtles can NEVER go back to the WILD without compromising the NATIVE population. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Contact Turtlehomesorg and adopt them out to someone who knows how to care for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you continue to feed them hot dogs you might also consider feeding your fish cotton candy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gezzz man there is no reason to NOT look up on the web what they eat or how to care for them properly.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 07:09 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn. They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Harry


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6862 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW...they do hibernate & if not done properly they will never wake up.Hibernation is not a requirement but has more to do with cycling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your turtles need two types of light and a submersible heater  to have the proper indoor captive environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Feed water hyacinth when ever possible for RES. Water needs to be highly filtered  - 4 X greater than a fish tank. Depth as a minimum should be at least 3 X the length of the shell from head to tail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Hatchlings should never be hibernatesd




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 07:28 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What is your turtle tank set-up like? Do you have a UVA/UVB light for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      them? I have 3 Red-eared sliders and don't really know if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hibernate in captivity. Be sure to make sure its not illegal to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wild caught turtles. Turtles do move into a sunny location to bask in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the sun.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ashley




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      help would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > ---------------------------------
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6863 From: harry perry Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: A turtle question./To red eye.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually I have raised turtles for years. I care very much about all God's creatures. My turtles don't like cotton candy. If they were in the wild they would be eating dead fish and whatever else they could find. Feeding them "properly" is your respected opinion. I wasn't joking about turtle soup. I have the original recipe for Bookbinders snapper soup. Don't knock it till you tried it. Any turtle can be used the younger the tastier.Loosen up, have a cup of turtle soup and have a nice day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye <r_ohle@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Why do people think its oK to joke about turtle soup? I think your humor is very unhumorous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes I am a tad peeved but I'll spare you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I know a lot about turtles &.....


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Those turtles can NEVER go back to the WILD without compromising the NATIVE population. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Contact Turtlehomesorg and adopt them out to someone who knows how to care for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you continue to feed them hot dogs you might also consider feeding your fish cotton candy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gezzz man there is no reason to NOT look up on the web what they eat or how to care for them properly.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      red-eye








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      At 07:09 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn. They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Harry


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Make sure you check out these URLs

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6864 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Goldfish and tropicals don't mix well.  They will eat them if they are something small like a platy, guppy, or tetra.  But they also eat plants.  I suggest trying to find a new home for your goldfish (chance to get a new tank :).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Green water is good for feeding small fry of egg-laying fish during their first week because it has infusoria (small water bugs). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey everyone… I'm pretty new to the list, and to fish keeping as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           I set up my first tank in July and it's doing pretty well. It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kind of planted- but with uninteresting plants…. so for a while now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've been looking into getting more plants. I really want a ground
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cover- and because of my low wattage lights- I was thinking of maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        getting dwarf Subulata (am I wording correctly?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6865 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What is wrong with turtle soup?  I have heard it is good stuff, several types of meat in one package. :)  I also wonder why it would compromise the native population.  I seriously doubt that is true, but would like to know your theory.  Harry's family was just saving one that probably would have died and found it a friend.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why do people think its oK to joke about turtle soup? I think your humor is very unhumorous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes I am a tad peeved but I'll spare you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I know a lot about turtles &.....


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Those turtles can NEVER go back to the WILD without compromising the NATIVE population. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Contact Turtlehomesorg and adopt them out to someone who knows how to care for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you continue to feed them hot dogs you might also consider feeding your fish cotton candy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Gezzz man there is no reason to NOT look up on the web what they eat or how to care for them properly.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 6866 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "As you all know, sand isn't that great for plants, and the only thing I can get to grow in it is anacharis."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I didn't know sand is not great for plants.  In fact, I think it is a myth started by people who had bad luck with plants and blamed it on sand.  But no matter who started it, it is a myth.  Sand and plants will do fine, as long as the sand is larger-grained.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Also I don't have the best lighting. How would java moss do in my tank?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Java moss and java fern will both grow well in low lighting.  Amazon swords will grow well too.  The swords do need some kind of fertilizer.  Mine were about to die until I added flourish excel once a week (a lot less than the recommended amount of once a day).  I like the sword at the back where it makes a back ground, and ferns in the front to make a few ground cover areas.  I wouldn't know what to do with moss because I have never seen it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'd like to add a couple of questions, if that's ok. I have sand in my tanks, for my cory cats. (What started off as a mollie tank, has turned into a gourami/cory cats tank.) As you all know, sand isn't that great for plants, and the only thing I can get to grow in it is anacharis. Also I don't have the best lighting. How would java moss do in my tank? I think it's really pretty, and I would like something to make the tank look fuller and more green. It's all sandy and bare right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            -Aranel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6867 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: off listRe: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] A turtle question./To
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What an ASS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            red-eye

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Group: AquaticLife Message: 6868 From: red-eye Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Maybe you should stick to fish & educate yourself before making erroneous statements about a topic you know little about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For starters the food market is responsible for the extinction of 4 turtle species last year. That is not OK with me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You might try looking up pathogens and how they affect flora.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'd like to thank you and the rest of the list for your fish knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Best of luck to all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I will not be on a list where people keeping living critters have no respect for other forms of life.








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              At 08:26 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What is wrong with turtle soup?  I have heard it is good stuff, several types of meat in one package. :)  I also wonder why it would compromise the native population.  I seriously doubt that is true, but would like to know your theory.  Harry's family was just saving one that probably would have died and found it a friend.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why do people think its oK to joke about turtle soup? I think your humor is very unhumorous.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes I am a tad peeved but I'll spare you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I know a lot about turtles &.....


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Those turtles can NEVER go back to the WILD without compromising the NATIVE population. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Contact Turtlehomesorg and adopt them out to someone who knows how to care for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you continue to feed them hot dogs you might also consider feeding your fish cotton candy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Gezzz man there is no reason to NOT look up on the web what they eat or how to care for them properly.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              564b51a.gif 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Group: AquaticLife Message: 6869 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I still see no way for native turtles being reintroduced to the wild hurting their habitat.  Makes no sense to me at all.  How in the world are they going to bring in non-native pathogens?  That would be like me bringing in the dog for the winter and when it goes out it will infect the animals outside with pathogens from inside the house.  And as for turtle species going extinct, I don't care.  People who properly raise them should be able to eat them any way they want.  Those that wipe them out on purpose are breaking laws.  As for Harry, he had a question and I don't know if he ever did get a good answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Bye.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe you should stick to fish & educate yourself before making erroneous statements about a topic you know little about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For starters the food market is responsible for the extinction of 4 turtle species last year. That is not OK with me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                You might try looking up pathogens and how they affect flora.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'd like to thank you and the rest of the list for your fish knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Best of luck to all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I will not be on a list where people keeping living critters have no respect for other forms of life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6870 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                wow, red-eye, that's the weirdest comparison i've ever heard. one is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nothing like the other. feeding a turtle bits of a kosher hot dog is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not a bad thing in the least. it's all beef. unless you're a vegan (and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that's a whole other ball of wax) the joke wasn't offensive in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                least. and yes, they can go back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                harry, look up care on the internet, and in your local library and see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                about contacting a local rescue league, certainly, but no, they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                have to hibernate for the winter. we have 4 sliders (one a rescue that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                had been hit by a car) and they're all active (though slower) in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                winter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 10:43 AM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Why do people think its oK to joke about turtle soup? I think your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > humor is very unhumorous.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yes I am a tad peeved but I'll spare you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I know a lot about turtles &.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Those turtles can NEVER go back to the WILD without compromising the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > NATIVE population. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Contact Turtlehomesorg and adopt them out to someone who knows how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > care for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you continue to feed them hot dogs you might also consider feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your fish cotton candy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Gezzz man there is no reason to NOT look up on the web what they eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or how to care for them properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > At 07:09 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6871 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                also, they don't need a heater. red-eye, where are you getting your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                information? we've kept turtles for 17 years with no heater and they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                happy as clams.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 10:50 AM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > BTW...they do hibernate & if not done properly they will never wake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > up.Hibernation is not a requirement but has more to do with cycling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Your turtles need two types of light and a submersible heater  to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have the proper indoor captive environment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Feed water hyacinth when ever possible for RES. Water needs to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > highly filtered  - 4 X greater than a fish tank. Depth as a minimum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > should be at least 3 X the length of the shell from head to tail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  Hatchlings should never be hibernatesd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > At 07:28 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What is your turtle tank set-up like? Do you have a UVA/UVB light for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them? I have 3 Red-eared sliders and don't really know if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hibernate in captivity. Be sure to make sure its not illegal to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wild caught turtles. Turtles do move into a sunny location to bask in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the sun.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, harry perry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <harryfisherman@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby musk turtle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > "cooking" on the asphalt of our driveway. Being animal lovers they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > brought it in and immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second one on the lawn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > They were doing extremely well and growing fast. They love hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and dried shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the winter(so do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > most people). Recently they stopped eating, as if preparing to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hibernate. Any ideas on what to do? I don't want to see them die but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get my seahorse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank back. A lose win situation?. They are way too small for soup. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ---------------------------------
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6872 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: off listRe: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                do it again and you're banned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 11:46 AM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > What an ASS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The "sulcata" list serve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sulcata
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Make sure you check out these URLs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The Sulcata Reality Check
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you are thinking about being a keeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://turtlehomes.org/usa/test.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sulcata Station
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For accurate, useful care information
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.sulcata-station.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>x<?>x<~~~>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Don't forget to recommend you favorite Herp vet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Need a Vet " Recommend a Vet " Worldwide
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6873 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to keep the personal attacks down, red-eye has now been moderated,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sorry for any problems this is causing people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 11:56 AM, red-eye wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Maybe you should stick to fish & educate yourself before making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > erroneous statements about a topic you know little about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For starters the food market is responsible for the extinction of 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > turtle species last year. That is not OK with me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > You might try looking up pathogens and how they affect flora.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'd like to thank you and the rest of the list for your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Best of luck to all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I will not be on a list where people keeping living critters have no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > respect for other forms of life.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > At 08:26 AM 11/13/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     What is wrong with turtle soup?  I have heard it is good stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > several types of meat in one package. :)  I also wonder why it would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > compromise the native population.  I seriously doubt that is true, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would like to know your theory.  Harry's family was just saving one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that probably would have died and found it a friend.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Why do people think its oK to joke about turtle soup? I think your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > humor is very unhumorous.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Yes I am a tad peeved but I'll spare you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I know a lot about turtles &.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Those turtles can NEVER go back to the WILD without compromising the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > NATIVE population. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Contact Turtlehomesorg and adopt them out to someone who knows how to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > care for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you continue to feed them hot dogs you might also consider feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > your fish cotton candy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Gezzz man there is no reason to NOT look up on the web what they eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > or how to care for them properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > red-eye
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sulcata Station
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.sulcata-station.org
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6874 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I tried to get harry some decent advice, but it seemed to be burried.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry, what size is the tank you had for your sea horses?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 2:25 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >     I still see no way for native turtles being reintroduced to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > wild hurting their habitat.  Makes no sense to me at all.  How in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > world are they going to bring in non-native pathogens?  That would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > like me bringing in the dog for the winter and when it goes out it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will infect the animals outside with pathogens from inside the house. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > And as for turtle species going extinct, I don't care.  People who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > properly raise them should be able to eat them any way they want. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Those that wipe them out on purpose are breaking laws.  As for Harry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > he had a question and I don't know if he ever did get a good answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Bye.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6875 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I stepped away from the computer for a couple hours and when I came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                back wow! I keep a submersible heater in my turtle tank and instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                filtering I do frequent water changes. I would never advocate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                releasing a turtle back into the wild if it was found as a youngster
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                either. Sorry if I gave that impression. I'm glad they do care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                these babies and wish them the best luck.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to keep the personal attacks down, red-eye has now been moderated,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sorry for any problems this is causing people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6876 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Lighter Note: Got My Angelfish Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A few weeks ago I sold one of my 30 gallon tank set-ups, the gentleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                who bought it mentioned he had a successful angelfish spawn. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                actually planning to get some but waiting to set-up a tank first and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                told him I wanted some if he were interested in letting them go. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tuesday I got the call that the babies were ready to go to make room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for a new spawn. They're around 5 weeks old and so tiny! He had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                actually used the 30 gallon tank I sold him to put the fry in. There
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                were tons of them in it. He scooped out about 17 for me and home I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                came. Right now since they're about the size of a dime I put them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in my 20 gallon tank that I'd set-up 3 days ago for them. Luckily our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ph is the same since we have the same water supplier and temps were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the same. I gradually introduced them and they seem to be doing well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They have an Amazon Sword plant, some Anacharis and Cabomba in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tank. I do hope they all survive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just thought you might like to know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6877 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you certainly can keep a submersible heater in with them, but it is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                a necessity. so long as your turtles have a warm place to bask (which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                tends, with most species to more closely mimic nature than a warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bath) they will be happy and long lived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Ashley wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I stepped away from the computer for a couple hours and when I came
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > back wow! I keep a submersible heater in my turtle tank and instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > filtering I do frequent water changes. I would never advocate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > releasing a turtle back into the wild if it was found as a youngster
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > either. Sorry if I gave that impression. I'm glad they do care for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > these babies and wish them the best luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > to keep the personal attacks down, red-eye has now been moderated,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > sorry for any problems this is causing people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6878 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                as long as turtles get the proper lights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperature they do not need to hibernate. if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                temperature of the tank is too low they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hibernate, and if they do not have enough fat stored
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in their bodies they will not survive the hibernation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if they have stopped eating, it may be do to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cold, but it is not good for theym to hibernate in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                that stage. they should be ravenous and stuffing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                themselves until hibernation. the exact species that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you have i am not totally familiar with. i deal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mainly with sliders, but while any turtle may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hbernate, it is usually because there is nof ood for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                them in teh cold. drop a good heater in there and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                maintain a normal aquarium temp in it. i am currently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                maintainng a 110 gallon slider tank for a client, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they do need to bask as well. the uva and uvb heat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lamp bulb works great in a shop light reflector (clamp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                on) the uv radiation from the bulbs that causes skin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cancer for us keeps the turtles shell parasite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bacteria free, in addition to keeping it hard. they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                will grow very slowly without it. and without the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                light they will be prone to soft spots and bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                infections on the shells. the bulbs (screw in 75w)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                are about 10 bucks and the reflectors are about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bucks at orchard or any hardware store. hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                would not be a great food for them as they contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nitrates and nitrites for preservation, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                driedshrimp are great. there are also reptomin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                floating turtle sticks and feeder guppies/ goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > musk turtle "cooking" on the asphalt of our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > driveway. Being animal lovers they brought it in and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > one on the lawn. They were doing extremely well and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > growing fast. They love hot dogs and dried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > winter(so do most people). Recently they stopped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > eating, as if preparing to hibernate. Any ideas on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what to do? I don't want to see them die but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > my seahorse tank back. A lose win situation?. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are way too small for soup. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6879 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Cleaning Tank / System
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i learned taht in the restaurant industry,from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                health inspector who actually tests rinse water with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                litmus paper. if the concentraion of bleach in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rinse water is over 100 ppm it becomes toxic to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                humans, which means that at 1/2 the stregth is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                horrible for fish. the bleach even at 100 ppm is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                enough to begin to eat plastic and make spatulas gummy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                in less than 1/2 hour. i genrally let tanks get good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and dried out, rinse with tap water, scrape anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                left on the glass with a kent scraper, rinse well and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                start up the tank with new gravel. or let the gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dry in the sun for a week and thoroughly rinse. i just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                don't like using any chemicals in teh tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Paul, EXCELLENT point about bleach weakening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > silicone, if used too strongly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I doubt that this fact is very widely known. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is something that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hobbyists should keep in mind, that too much of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > good thing is not necessarily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > better. I have had an occasional tank spring a leak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > after using too much bleach to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > disinfect a tank, and have learned the hard way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > When used sparingly, bleach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > is about the best disinfectant you can use. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6880 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Lighter Note: Got My Angelfish Today
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                if i were you i would add stress zyme every 2-3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                for the next few weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Ashley <gerbilheavenkennels@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > A few weeks ago I sold one of my 30 gallon tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > set-ups, the gentleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > who bought it mentioned he had a successful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > angelfish spawn. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > actually planning to get some but waiting to set-up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a tank first and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > told him I wanted some if he were interested in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > letting them go. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tuesday I got the call that the babies were ready to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > go to make room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > for a new spawn. They're around 5 weeks old and so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tiny! He had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > actually used the 30 gallon tank I sold him to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the fry in. There
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > were tons of them in it. He scooped out about 17 for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > me and home I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > came. Right now since they're about the size of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dime I put them all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in my 20 gallon tank that I'd set-up 3 days ago for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them. Luckily our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > ph is the same since we have the same water supplier
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and temps were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the same. I gradually introduced them and they seem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to be doing well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > They have an Amazon Sword plant, some Anacharis and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Cabomba in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tank. I do hope they all survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just thought you might like to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6881 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes I have a floating turtle dock in there that leads to a basking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                area. I have the UV lamp over that and they love to sit out there and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                sun themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you certainly can keep a submersible heater in with them, but it is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a necessity. so long as your turtles have a warm place to bask (which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > tends, with most species to more closely mimic nature than a warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bath) they will be happy and long lived.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > On Nov 13, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Ashley wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6882 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yes, you cannot feed (at least a slider) on shrimp alone, or they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                die! too much protein can actually cause their shells to warp and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                buckle. We have used reptomin sticks for years, though switched this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                summer to Zoo Med Aquatic turtle food and had a tremendous amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                growth in our turtle pond. (We keep a min, 125 gallon turtle pond in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the winter and a slightly larger one outdoors in the summer.) The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                occasional treat of feeder goldfish and crickets is usually welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Our turtles are also tremendously fond of cherry tomatoes, bananas,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                zucchini and most other vegetables we're eating with dinner (though we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                take out some for them before we put additives such as butter on them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of course.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The best bet is to do some reading on your turtle species, both on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                internet and the library and also, see if you can find a local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                herpatologist in either a zoo, or museum or reputable reptile/exotic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                pets store, and you will find your way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Remember though, a healthy turtle will likely outlive it's owner, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                bear that in mind when accepting the responsibility for this type of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                animal as you are looking at YEARS of care!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                best of luck with your turtle!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 3:02 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as long as turtles get the proper lights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > temperature they do not need to hibernate.  if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > temperature of the tank is too low they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hibernate, and if they do not have enough fat stored
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in their bodies they will not survive the hibernation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if they have stopped eating, it may be do to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cold, but it is not good for theym to hibernate in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that stage.  they should be ravenous and stuffing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > themselves until hibernation. the exact species that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you have i am not totally familiar with.  i deal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mainly with sliders, but while any turtle may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hbernate, it is usually because there is nof ood for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them in teh cold.  drop a good heater in there and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maintain a normal aquarium temp in it.  i am currently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maintainng a 110 gallon slider tank for a client, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they do need to bask as well.  the uva and uvb heat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lamp bulb works great in a shop light reflector (clamp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > on) the uv radiation from the bulbs that causes skin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cancer for us keeps the turtles shell parasite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria free, in addition to keeping it hard.  they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will grow very slowly without it.  and without the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > light they will be prone to soft spots and bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > infections on the shells.  the bulbs (screw in 75w)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are about 10 bucks and the reflectors are about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bucks at orchard or any hardware store.  hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would not be a great food for them as they contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrates and nitrites for preservation, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > driedshrimp are great.  there are also reptomin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > floating turtle sticks and feeder guppies/ goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > During the summer my wife and daughter found a baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > musk turtle "cooking" on the asphalt of our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > driveway. Being animal lovers they brought it in and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > immediately revived it. Then they stole the tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > was saving for seahorses. Later they found a second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > one on the lawn. They were doing extremely well and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > growing fast. They love hot dogs and dried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > shrimp(yuck!!). In Pa turtles hibernate for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > winter(so do most people). Recently they stopped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > eating, as if preparing to hibernate. Any ideas on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > what to do? I don't want to see them die but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > don't have to hibernate. Of course if they die I get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > my seahorse tank back. A lose win situation?. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > are way too small for soup. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Harry
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6883 From: Ashley Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: A turtle question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I feed mainly floating sticks, or should I say that's what they feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                on mainly. I have feeder guppies and platies in this tank and they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                hunted down and fed on. There are live plants as well and I try to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                encourage them to eat veggies and other things as well but they don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                show much interest. So far they are doing really well sunning a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and have even come to begging at the pellet feeding times. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > as long as turtles get the proper lights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > temperature they do not need to hibernate. if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > temperature of the tank is too low they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hibernate, and if they do not have enough fat stored
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > in their bodies they will not survive the hibernation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > if they have stopped eating, it may be do to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cold, but it is not good for theym to hibernate in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > that stage. they should be ravenous and stuffing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > themselves until hibernation. the exact species that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > you have i am not totally familiar with. i deal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > mainly with sliders, but while any turtle may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > hbernate, it is usually because there is nof ood for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > them in teh cold. drop a good heater in there and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maintain a normal aquarium temp in it. i am currently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > maintainng a 110 gallon slider tank for a client, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they do need to bask as well. the uva and uvb heat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > lamp bulb works great in a shop light reflector (clamp
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > on) the uv radiation from the bulbs that causes skin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cancer for us keeps the turtles shell parasite and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bacteria free, in addition to keeping it hard. they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > will grow very slowly without it. and without the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > light they will


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                be prone to soft spots and bacterial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > infections on the shells. the bulbs (screw in 75w)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > are about 10 bucks and the reflectors are about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > bucks at orchard or any hardware store. hot dogs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > would not be a great food for them as they contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > nitrates and nitrites for preservation, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > driedshrimp are great. there are also reptomin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > floating turtle sticks and feeder guppies/ goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6884 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 11/13/04 3:02:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I wasn't joking about turtle soup. I have the original recipe for Bookbinders snapper soup. Don't knock it till you tried it. Any turtle can be used the younger the tastier.Loosen up, have a cup of turtle soup and have a nice day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Harry;

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Did you know Bookbinder's Snapper Soup is still available ?????????  I get it in the Acme (no relation to Wiley Coyote) store in DE.  It's made by another company from Wisconsin or some similar place.  But it's still called Bookbinder's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6885 From: Steve Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Guide to South American Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Swedish Museum of Natural History-Department of Vertebrate Zoology:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Guide to South American Cichlidae [pdf]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.nrm.se/ve/pisces/acara/welcome.shtml

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sven Kullander of the Swedish Museum of Natural History developed the _Guide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                to the South American Cichlidae_ as "a non-commercial, technical source of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                information about the systematics, taxonomy and geographical distribution of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                South American cichlids." The Guide features a Cichlid Names Database
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                containing 469 nominal species and 60 Nominal Genera with search fields for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                keywords, Genus/Species, Record/Table, Status, and more. The site also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                offers a phylogenetic tree representing major cichlid groups, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Classification of South American Cichlids, and an Alphabetical List of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nominal Genera and Informal Groups of South American Cichlids. In addition,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the Guide contains a sizeable list of publications from 1997 onwards (some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                of which are hyperlinked or downloadable), and a solid collection of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                cichlid-related links.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From The NSDL Scout Report for the Life Sciences, Copyright Internet Scout
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Project 1994-2004. http://scout.wisc.edu/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6886 From: Aranel Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "As you all know, sand isn't that great for plants, and the only thing I can get to grow in it is anacharis."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I didn't know sand is not great for plants.  In fact, I think it is a myth started by people who had bad luck with plants and blamed it on sand.  But no matter who started it, it is a myth.  Sand and plants will do fine, as long as the sand is larger-grained.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I read that the sand wasn't good for the plants because it doesn't have many nutrients that they need. I have some liquid fertilizer, but haven't been using it very much. The plants I have don't do any better with it than without it. As for the grain of the sand... I have no idea what size it is. I bought playground sand last year and sterilized it before I put it in the tank. (That was a lot of work too.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6887 From: Larry Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Cichlid to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a 90 gal, cycled tank...in it I have 5 rainbow, 1 Synd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Eurpter, a Gold Severum, a Geo Juparaii, and a Blue Acara. I wish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                add one final animal. What can the group recommend that will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                compatible, colorful, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6888 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they ought do something with those ugly things lol. people around where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i live have to dig up their eggs and smash them because the adults
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                march through our yards and eat pets and such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 13, 2004, at 5:03 PM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In a message dated 11/13/04 3:02:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I wasn't joking about turtle soup. I have the original recipe for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Bookbinders snapper soup. Don't knock it till you tried it. Any turtle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > can be used the younger the tastier.Loosen up, have a cup of turtle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > soup and have a nice day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Harry;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Did you know Bookbinder's Snapper Soup is still available ?????????  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > get it in the Acme (no relation to Wiley Coyote) store in DE.  It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > made by another company from Wisconsin or some similar place.  But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > it's still called Bookbinder's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6889 From: paul helms Date: 11/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: ground covers and goldfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the lights are the most important thing to remember
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > "As you all know, sand isn't that great for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants, and the only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I can get to grow in it is anacharis."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > I didn't know sand is not great for plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In fact, I think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > is a myth started by people who had bad luck with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > plants and blamed it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > on sand. But no matter who started it, it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > myth. Sand and plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > > will do fine, as long as the sand is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > larger-grained.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I read that the sand wasn't good for the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > because it doesn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > many nutrients that they need. I have some liquid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > fertilizer, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > haven't been using it very much. The plants I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't do any better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > with it than without it. As for the grain of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > sand... I have no idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > what size it is. I bought playground sand last year
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > and sterilized it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > before I put it in the tank. (That was a lot of work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > too.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6890 From: Ashley Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What is the correct way to pronounce cichlid?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Swedish Museum of Natural History-Department of Vertebrate Zoology:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Guide to South American Cichlidae [pdf]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.nrm.se/ve/pisces/acara/welcome.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sven Kullander of the Swedish Museum of Natural History developed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the _Guide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to the South American Cichlidae_ as "a non-commercial, technical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                source of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > information about the systematics, taxonomy and geographical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                distribution of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > South American cichlids." The Guide features a Cichlid Names Database
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > containing 469 nominal species and 60 Nominal Genera with search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fields for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > keywords, Genus/Species, Record/Table, Status, and more. The site also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > offers a phylogenetic tree representing major cichlid groups, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Classification of South American Cichlids, and an Alphabetical List of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nominal Genera and Informal Groups of South American Cichlids. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                addition,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the Guide contains a sizeable list of publications from 1997 onwards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of which are hyperlinked or downloadable), and a solid collection of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cichlid-related links.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From The NSDL Scout Report for the Life Sciences, Copyright Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Scout
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Project 1994-2004. http://scout.wisc.edu/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6891 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From the Asbury Park Press:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Axelrod dropped his appeal on extradition from Germany, and was returned to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this country. Full details are here:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1110906,00.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6892 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty--Another Take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This story was in the New York Times--registration is required--and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                another take on the story from the Asbury park Press story posted moments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ago:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/13/nyregion/13violins.html/2004/11/13/nyregio
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                n/13violins.html?pagewanted=2/2004/11/13/nyregion/13violins.html/2004/11/13/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                nyregion/13violins.html?pagewanted=1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hmmm . . . the above definitely wraps, so, if you don't want to copy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                paste, follow this link to get there:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://tinyurl.com/5o82v

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6893 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Digest Number 495
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 11/13/04 11:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                they ought do something with those ugly things lol. people around where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i live have to dig up their eggs and smash them because the adults
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                march through our yards and eat pets and such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Where do you live ????????  In DE, the turtles are trapped in brackish water.  They're snappers - snapping turtles - hence "Snapper Soup".  If one ever gets a hold on your finger, you'll know why "Snapper" - the only way to get loose is to cut off their head.  I've seen those critters in excess of 16" - 18" in diameter.  I imagine they could eat a cat or small dog.  Where I lived before - on a stream - I lost many dux and small geese to snappers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6894 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 495
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                you're lucky you're only getting 18" turtles where you are! they have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                great one in the bronx zoo that's almost 5' though here the largest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i've ever actually seen was a little under 4'. people have a nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                habit of keeping them at home in vats, growing them to ridiculous sizes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and setting them free when they "no longer feel safe."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 14, 2004, at 9:37 AM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In a message dated 11/13/04 11:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they ought do something with those ugly things lol. people around where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i live have to dig up their eggs and smash them because the adults
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > march through our yards and eat pets and such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Where do you live ????????  In DE, the turtles are trapped in brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water.  They're snappers - snapping turtles - hence "Snapper Soup".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  If one ever gets a hold on your finger, you'll know why "Snapper" -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the only way to get loose is to cut off their head.  I've seen those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > critters in excess of 16" - 18" in diameter.  I imagine they could eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a cat or small dog.  Where I lived before - on a stream - I lost many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dux and small geese to snappers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6895 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Digest Number 495
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i live on long island. we get HUGE snapping turtles here. i'm 1 mile
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from the largest freshwater lake in downstate new york and 4 houses
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                from a large pond, so they like to lay their eggs in our yards. it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                creepy come spring to watch these monstrosities on the march. it's also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                not uncommon to see them drag a fully grown swan (6' tall!) under the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                On Nov 14, 2004, at 9:37 AM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > In a message dated 11/13/04 11:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: Digest Number 494 - TURTLE SOUP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > they ought do something with those ugly things lol. people around where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > i live have to dig up their eggs and smash them because the adults
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > march through our yards and eat pets and such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Where do you live ????????  In DE, the turtles are trapped in brackish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > water.  They're snappers - snapping turtles - hence "Snapper Soup".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >  If one ever gets a hold on your finger, you'll know why "Snapper" -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the only way to get loose is to cut off their head.  I've seen those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > critters in excess of 16" - 18" in diameter.  I imagine they could eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > a cat or small dog.  Where I lived before - on a stream - I lost many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > dux and small geese to snappers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6896 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Pretty much like sick-lid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ashley [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Guide to South American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cichlidae




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What is the correct way to pronounce cichlid?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Swedish Museum of Natural History-Department of Vertebrate Zoology:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Guide to South American Cichlidae [pdf]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.nrm.se/ve/pisces/acara/welcome.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sven Kullander of the Swedish Museum of Natural History developed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                the _Guide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to the South American Cichlidae_ as "a non-commercial, technical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                source of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > information about the systematics, taxonomy and geographical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                distribution of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > South American cichlids." The Guide features a Cichlid Names Database
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > containing 469 nominal species and 60 Nominal Genera with search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                fields for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > keywords, Genus/Species, Record/Table, Status, and more. The site also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > offers a phylogenetic tree representing major cichlid groups, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Classification of South American Cichlids, and an Alphabetical List of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Nominal Genera and Informal Groups of South American Cichlids. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                addition,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > the Guide contains a sizeable list of publications from 1997 onwards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > of which are hyperlinked or downloadable), and a solid collection of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > cichlid-related links.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > From The NSDL Scout Report for the Life Sciences, Copyright Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Scout
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Project 1994-2004. http://scout.wisc.edu/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6897 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And why is this significant?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: "Badis badis Group (E-mail)" <badisbadis@yahoogroups.com>; "Fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Aquaria List (E-mail)" <aquaria@yahoogroups.com>; "fishadmin (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <fishadmin@yahoogroups.com>; "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>; "Labyrinth-Fish (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <labyrinth-fish@egroups.com>; "Mike Hellweg (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <MichaelAngelaH@...>; "Mike Schadle (E-mail)" <mjschadle@...>;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Mike Wickham (E-mail)" <mewickham@...>; "PVAS (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <pvas@yahoogroups.com>; "Gwapa (E-mail)" <gwapa@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>From the Asbury Park Press:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Axelrod dropped his appeal on extradition from Germany, and was returned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this country. Full details are here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1110906,00.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6898 From: Robb Rouse Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think it because STEVE thinks Axelrod is god. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes I know what he has done as far as the fish world goes, but overtime her FARTS do we need to hear about it???????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Robb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 9:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And why is this significant?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To: "Badis badis Group (E-mail)" <badisbadis@yahoogroups.com>; "Fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Aquaria List (E-mail)" <aquaria@yahoogroups.com>; "fishadmin (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <fishadmin@yahoogroups.com>; "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>; "Labyrinth-Fish (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <labyrinth-fish@egroups.com>; "Mike Hellweg (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <MichaelAngelaH@...>; "Mike Schadle (E-mail)" <mjschadle@...>;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Mike Wickham (E-mail)" <mewickham@...>; "PVAS (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <pvas@yahoogroups.com>; "Gwapa (E-mail)" <gwapa@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >>From the Asbury Park Press:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Axelrod dropped his appeal on extradition from Germany, and was returned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > this country. Full details are here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1110906,00.html



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Group: AquaticLife Message: 6899 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Because Axelrod is the most well-known name in aquarium fish.  It would be like arresting Bill Shakespeare to people who like plays, only they didn't have the internets to talk about it. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And why is this significant?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6900 From: Ashley Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good, that's how I say it. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ashley


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Pretty much like sick-lid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Ashley [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Guide to South American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > What is the correct way to pronounce cichlid?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Swedish Museum of Natural History-Department of Vertebrate Zoology:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Guide to South American Cichlidae [pdf]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.nrm.se/ve/pisces/acara/welcome.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Sven Kullander of the Swedish Museum of Natural History developed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the _Guide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > to the South American Cichlidae_ as "a non-commercial, technical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > source of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > information about the systematics, taxonomy and geographical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > distribution of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > South American cichlids." The Guide features a Cichlid Names Database
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > containing 469 nominal species and 60 Nominal Genera with search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > fields for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > keywords, Genus/Species, Record/Table, Status, and more. The site also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > offers a phylogenetic tree representing major cichlid groups, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Classification of South American Cichlids, and an Alphabetical List of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Nominal Genera and Informal Groups of South American Cichlids. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > addition,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the Guide contains a sizeable list of publications from 1997 onwards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of which are hyperlinked or downloadable), and a solid collection of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > cichlid-related links.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > From The NSDL Scout Report for the Life Sciences, Copyright Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Scout
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Project 1994-2004. http://scout.wisc.edu/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6901 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Oh, okay. now i know. thanks for bring those of us who are less informed up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  to speed.... ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 12:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Because Axelrod is the most well-known name in aquarium fish. It would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  be like arresting Bill Shakespeare to people who like plays, only they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  didn't have the internets to talk about it. :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6902 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Herbert Axelrod played a prominent role in shaping and directing the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  in America for about 50 years. There are those out there who like him and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  those that hate him, with the latter probably out numbering the former.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  These are the reasons why it is significant. Should you, or anyone else, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  find it significant, not want to learn something about the roots of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hobby, there is always the delete key that may be applied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Calhoun [mailto:calhoung@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 11:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And why is this significant?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Steve" <steve@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: "Badis badis Group (E-mail)" <badisbadis@yahoogroups.com>; "Fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Aquaria List (E-mail)" <aquaria@yahoogroups.com>; "fishadmin (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <fishadmin@yahoogroups.com>; "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>; "Labyrinth-Fish (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <labyrinth-fish@egroups.com>; "Mike Hellweg (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <MichaelAngelaH@...>; "Mike Schadle (E-mail)" <mjschadle@...>;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Mike Wickham (E-mail)" <mewickham@...>; "PVAS (E-mail)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  <pvas@yahoogroups.com>; "Gwapa (E-mail)" <gwapa@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>From the Asbury Park Press:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Axelrod dropped his appeal on extradition from Germany, and was returned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > this country. Full details are here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1110906,00.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6903 From: Steve Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Robb,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have that all wrong. As I mentioned to Gary, there are those who like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  him and those who do not. I withhold an opinion. While on one hand, he did a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  lot to promote the hobby, he also did a lot to promote himself as well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  sometimes to the detriment of the hobby.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  There are those out there who are rather interested in all the twists and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  turns of the story, and there are those who are not. A simple press of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  delete key can resolve the issue for you.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Robb Rouse [mailto:robbrouse@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 12:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it because STEVE thinks Axelrod is god.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes I know what he has done as far as the fish world goes, but overtime her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FARTS do we need to hear about it???????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Robb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Calhoun
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 9:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And why is this significant?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6904 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Cichlid to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Larry,  Looks like you're asking for advice in adding another type of Cichlid.  As you're seeming to want to stay with the more peaceful Cichlids, which coincidentally also are sharing the same water requirements, may I suggest an one of the following:  Either a Chocolate Cichlid (H. temporalis, not coryphenoides), or a Festivum.  Uaru's are also quite peaceful, even if they can get rather large, but they like a higher temperature.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group: AquaticLife Message: 6905 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't know much more than little stories I read on the internet about him, but he sounds like the kind of guy they would make a movie about.  Jim Carey could play the lead part in the movie "Herbert". :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Herbert Axelrod played a prominent role in shaping and directing the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    in America for about 50 years. There are those out there who like him and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    those that hate him, with the latter probably out numbering the former.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    These are the reasons why it is significant. Should you, or anyone else, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    find it significant, not want to learn something about the roots of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hobby, there is always the delete key that may be applied.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6906 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No, the actor who played the mad doctor in "Silence of The Lambs" should play him. He'd lend some dignity to the coarse imbalance in the air. (and maybe the water where the little fishies are)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't know much more than little stories I read on the internet about him, but he sounds like the kind of guy they would make a movie about.  Jim Carey could play the lead part in the movie "Herbert". :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Herbert Axelrod played a prominent role in shaping and directing the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    in America for about 50 years. There are those out there who like him and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    those that hate him, with the latter probably out numbering the former.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    These are the reasons why it is significant. Should you, or anyone else, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    find it significant, not want to learn something about the roots of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hobby, there is always the delete key that may be applied.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6907 From: Julie Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anthony Hopkins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Axelrod Pleads Not Guilty

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No, the actor who played the mad doctor in "Silence of The Lambs"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6908 From: paul helms Date: 11/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Cichlid to add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i like the nicarguensis as well (sorry about spelling)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Larry, Looks like you're asking for advice in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > adding another type of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Cichlid. As you're seeming to want to stay with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more peaceful Cichlids, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > coincidentally also are sharing the same water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > requirements, may I suggest an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one of the following: Either a Chocolate Cichlid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (H. temporalis, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > coryphenoides), or a Festivum. Uaru's are also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > quite peaceful, even if they can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > rather large, but they like a higher temperature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6909 From: Elyse Date: 11/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah is cracks me up when people come into my store and call the Chick-Lids.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Elyse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Ashley [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 12:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Guide to South American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cichlidae



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good, that's how I say it. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ashley


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Pretty much like sick-lid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Ashley [mailto:gerbilheavenkennels@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Guide to South American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > What is the correct way to pronounce cichlid?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Swedish Museum of Natural History-Department of Vertebrate Zoology:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Guide to South American Cichlidae [pdf]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://www.nrm.se/ve/pisces/acara/welcome.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sven Kullander of the Swedish Museum of Natural History developed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the _Guide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to the South American Cichlidae_ as "a non-commercial, technical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > source of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > information about the systematics, taxonomy and geographical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > distribution of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > South American cichlids." The Guide features a Cichlid Names Database
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > containing 469 nominal species and 60 Nominal Genera with search
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fields for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > keywords, Genus/Species, Record/Table, Status, and more. The site also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > offers a phylogenetic tree representing major cichlid groups, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Classification of South American Cichlids, and an Alphabetical List of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Nominal Genera and Informal Groups of South American Cichlids. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > addition,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the Guide contains a sizeable list of publications from 1997 onwards
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of which are hyperlinked or downloadable), and a solid collection of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > cichlid-related links.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From The NSDL Scout Report for the Life Sciences, Copyright Internet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Scout
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Project 1994-2004. http://scout.wisc.edu/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > For tropical fish and aquariums in MA, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://www.petsforum.com/was/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > If you are in the DC Metro area, visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://www.pvas.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sheltie Rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://www.nvsr.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Manager Fish Club and Society WebRing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://www.petsforum.com/was/fishclub/fishclub.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > List Owner: fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fishadmin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gwapa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6910 From: Ashley Date: 11/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Guide to South American Cichlidae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd love to have a pet store someday. Right now I'm in school taking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Small Business Management and hope to switch majors so I can start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    taking Vet Assistant as well. I've almost completed Small Business. We
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    use to have a store here in town that was called Fish World and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sold nothing but fish and fish related items. I loved that store but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they closed a few years back. Shame.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ashley


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Elyse"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <elyse@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yeah is cracks me up when people come into my store and call the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chick-Lids.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6911 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the info, I have been away for the weekend. I will try and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    take some clearer pictures. I'm not sure where pectoral fins are but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the fins on top of his body are very pointed. The ear tab I assume is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the part behind the eye, It is a silghtly darker color grey than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fishes body, the tiny spots all over him look orange. and his eyes are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    orange. Well for now there is only a few feeder guppies in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with him, I took out the catfish. Will he be a pretty fish? It's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    really hard to get a good pic of him but I'll try again. Yeah I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    about 13 or so catfish and only ended up with like 9 or so. (I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know what the ear tabs look like extended his just are slightly darker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they don't stick out further or anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I agree with Ray that this is a sunfish, but with one out of focus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > picture and no real identifying information I would be hesitant to ID
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it to species level. There are several native centrarchidae that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > would look identicle to this at this small size. I wouldn't rule out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > orangespotted sunfish or longear sunfish at this point. It would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > help if you could tell if the pectoral fins were pointed or rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and describe the "eartab" more. It is definately a predator. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in the same family as Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass. Bullheads are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > notorius for cleaning out a tank of other fishes, even other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bullheads only slightly smaller than themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dattilo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oh, and at 1 inch in size, longears and orangespotted sunfish dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have the extended "eartabs" yet, and their color is not as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > spectacular as pictures you will see on the internet of large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > breeding males.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Melanie, I just went up to your photo site. Your mystery fish is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Flowerhorn (in fact not even a Cichlid), but something closely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > related. Its a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Blue-Spotted (Diamond) Sunfish. Its found from Massachusetts to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Florida and gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to about 4" long. It does have a small mouth, even when full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > grown, but any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 4" fish would be capable of eating guppies, especially smaller
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ones. Not that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > it would become mean. but that's the natural thing to do as it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > guppies as food. Right now, your culprit is the Catfish. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Bullhead Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > such as you have, have hugh mouths and are able to eat just about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > can fit in that mouth. By the way, they get much bigger. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6912 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the info, I will try and look up a picture for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    blue-spotted diamond fish and see if they look like my fish. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for your help, I've been out of town for the weekend.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Melanie, I just went up to your photo site. Your mystery fish is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Flowerhorn (in fact not even a Cichlid), but something closely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    related. Its a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Blue-Spotted (Diamond) Sunfish. Its found from Massachusetts to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Florida and gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to about 4" long. It does have a small mouth, even when full grown,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 4" fish would be capable of eating guppies, especially smaller ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it would become mean. but that's the natural thing to do as it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    see the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > guppies as food. Right now, your culprit is the Catfish. Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Bullhead Catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > such as you have, have hugh mouths and are able to eat just about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    anything it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > can fit in that mouth. By the way, they get much bigger. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6913 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: frozen foods for fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    OK being that my garden is all dead now.. I am looking to find out what kind of frozen veggies I can feed my fish.. I have tetras, cories, killifish, frogs and a gourami... I have this frozen veggie blend that consists of yellow crocked neck AKA squash, peas, broccoli, carrots, califlauer... and if I can use them do I have to defrost them or boil them thanks.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6914 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Melanie,  Orange spots?  In your photos, the spots appear light greenish or bluish green; one reason why I mentioned it was a blue-spotted sunfish.  The ears on a sunfish, if it has any, are extentions near the rear edge/opening of the gill cover.  The pectoral fins are those fins just behind the gill openings that stick out to the sides and are used for balance.  They are alternately moved (back & forth) in opposite directions of each other, usually clear.  They are found just over the ventral fins which stick straight down towards the front of the fish.  Orange spots, if that's what they turn out to be, could indicate its a juvenile Pumkinseed, or Long Ear Sunfish, (depending upon how long the ear flap gets), both of which get considerably larger.  How large is the fish now?  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6915 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The pictures don't show the way the fish looks, the spots are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tiny and are orange. I took a couple other pics that are a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    better I'll put them in my folder. MELANIE'S PICS The pectoral fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    look rounded not pokie (sp). I'd say he's about an inch and a half
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    right now. He's starting to come around he finally comes to the top to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    eat. He used to constantly hide. Well I hope the pictures are a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    better for you to see.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Melanie, Orange spots? In your photos, the spots appear light
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    greenish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > or bluish green; one reason why I mentioned it was a blue-spotted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sunfish. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ears on a sunfish, if it has any, are extentions near the rear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    edge/opening
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of the gill cover. The pectoral fins are those fins just behind the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > openings that stick out to the sides and are used for balance. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > alternately moved (back & forth) in opposite directions of each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    other, usually clear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > They are found just over the ventral fins which stick straight down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    towards the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > front of the fish. Orange spots, if that's what they turn out to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be, could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > indicate its a juvenile Pumkinseed, or Long Ear Sunfish, (depending
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    upon how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > long the ear flap gets), both of which get considerably larger. How
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    large is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the fish now? Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6916 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Although its definitely a sunfish, it really hard to pin it down, at this size, to exactly what species it is.  It is also not one of the smaller (4") ones.  Its very possible it is an Orange-Spotted Sunfish which gets to at least 6", although it still could turn out to be a Pumpkinseed Sunfish (which gets to 7 or 8 inches).  Really too young to tell, as for one thing, the "ear flap" is not fully developed The shape and coloration of that feature alone can tell you a lot about what species it is, when mature.  Pumpkinseeds ear-flaps are trimmed in red.  Probably best to trade him in if you want to keep mostly smaller fish, unless you plan on having a tank just for larger fish.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6917 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: help with ID "plant ball?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hi everyone

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Today I was at a local fish store, And they had what the sales lady
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    called "plant balls" I was wondering if anyone has seen these or know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    what they are? they are round,green, moss like, When taken out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    water the shink alittle. No roots, "having a hard time telling ya
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    what they look like. I bought 2 of them. So I added a photo to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    file under Sherrie's on the 2nd page

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you for your time

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6918 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: help with ID "plant ball?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    those are japanese moss balls. how much did you pay for them? i can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    get them in local shops and i'd love some!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    On Nov 16, 2004, at 6:40 PM, freedombell2002 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > hi everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Today I was at a local fish store, And they had what the sales lady
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > called "plant balls" I was wondering if anyone has seen these or know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what they are? they are round,green, moss like, When taken out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > water the shink alittle. No roots,  "having a hard time telling ya
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > what they look like. I bought 2 of them.  So I added a photo to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > file under Sherrie's on the 2nd page
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thank you for your time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6919 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: help with ID "plant ball?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you Thank you amalthea!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your were right I looked them up under Japanese moss ball thur
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    google. And they came up with other names Scientific Name: Cladophora
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    aegagropila other names were Marimo Ball, Marimo Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also they have some on Ebay under the name Marimo ball. I paid 2.99
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    each for mine. Says they are not really plants but a algae. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    isn't algae a plant? mine are about the size of pool balls. Hope I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can keep them a live! Heaven only knows I can get algae to live LOL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sherrie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > those are japanese moss balls. how much did you pay for them? i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > get them in local shops and i'd love some!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > On Nov 16, 2004, at 6:40 PM, freedombell2002 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > hi everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Today I was at a local fish store, And they had what the sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    lady
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > called "plant balls" I was wondering if anyone has seen these or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what they are? they are round,green, moss like, When taken out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > water the shink alittle. No roots,  "having a hard time telling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ya
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what they look like. I bought 2 of them.  So I added a photo to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > file under Sherrie's on the 2nd page
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thank you for your time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6920 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: So sad today!! catfish ate my fancy ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not sure if I told you his colors right, he is a bluish grey with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tiny orange spots all over him. So he's some type of sun fish, does he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have a special diet or is the fish food ok? I also think he ate a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of my new tiny feeder guppies I put in the tank or they got sucked up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    by the filter. I think I will trade him in because I really want a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank of guppies, not just one big fish. But I might get attached to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    him so we'll see. =:O) thanks to everyone for all the help trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    id this fish.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Although its definitely a sunfish, it really hard to pin it down, at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > size, to exactly what species it is. It is also not one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    smaller (4")
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ones. Its very possible it is an Orange-Spotted Sunfish which gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 6", although it still could turn out to be a Pumpkinseed Sunfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (which gets to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 7 or 8 inches). Really too young to tell, as for one thing, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "ear flap" is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > not fully developed The shape and coloration of that feature alone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can tell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you a lot about what species it is, when mature. Pumpkinseeds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ear-flaps are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trimmed in red. Probably best to trade him in if you want to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > smaller fish, unless you plan on having a tank just for larger fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6921 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Bay Area Killifish Association (BAKA) , 11/30/2004, 7:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Bay Area Killifish Association (BAKA)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Tuesday November 30, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    7:00 pm - 8:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This event does not repeat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The next reminder for this event will be sent in 9 days, 3 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Event Location: Round Table Pizza, 20920 Redwood Road in Castro Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.sfbaka.net/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Quarterly Meetings

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    When:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    BAKA meets on the third Saturday in Feb, May, Aug and Nov.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Next Meeting -- November 20, 2004


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Where:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Round Table Pizza
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    20920 Redwood Road in Castro Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    near Highway 580 & the Castro Valley BART Station.


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6922 From: shailendra Indulkar Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: shrimps & sand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shrimp Juvenile

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Juveniles from sea were collected and kept in all glass tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    latter on in a plastic box we brought two types of sand ,dividing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the box with two type of sand :one very fine & other crumbles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    like ,then gently kept few juveniles on the top of sand ,immediately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they started blowing sand upwardly and slowly going downwards in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sand within less then a minute only eyes were visible, then that too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    disappeared ,latter on say after 20 minutes just to check we started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    slowly searching in sand with our fingers and relies they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    comfortable down two cms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we kept little sand on the glass base to observe they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    mostly on sand blowing it ( trying to cover them selves, maybe)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now just for curiosity I ask few questions: what type of food could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    be available between sand particles? What stimulates them to act
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    like this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If some one wishes to suggest some experiments we can try it with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    this little number of juveniles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ManyThanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Indulkar Shailendra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    India (presently in Egypt)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6923 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Finally rid of those white thread squiggly worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was so THRILLED last night when I checked my daughters little 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gallon fish tank (newly constructed with 2 molly frye and Mommy) the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    zany zebra danio that I transferred in there seemed to have gobbled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    up all those nasty critters, I will check today again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had tried a couple of water changes, darkness, removed filter and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dropped some green tabs in 3 times, used some other drops and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    couldnt get rid of those gross things, its so awesome that all I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to do was to add that other fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, if I can only get a handle on the snails in my 30 gallon tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thats something I cant get under control at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know of a source for Yo Yo loaches? I refuse to buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    another fish in a petco ever again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6924 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Angelfish Problem - puffy face
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a couple of Angels and never saw anything like this. Although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my Molly shortly after I got her and shortly after she gave birth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    had pop eye, I added salt to the water and some ich drops (forget
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the exact name of the stuff) and she got better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good Luck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > could be popeye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- robdar4609 <robdar4609@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have an angelfish that just got a puffy swollen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > area with a red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tint right above the mouth...it covers the brow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > between his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > eyes...does anyone have any idea what this could be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6925 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Tyler Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No, I have never even heard of these, but I will go to Walmart and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    check them out, I tried looking online at walmart.com but couldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    find them. I will ask at the store, they sound like fun.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "straubtyler"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <straubtyler@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have you ever tryed aponogetons you can buy them as dry bulds a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > walmart. you just drop them in thetank and in a few weeks they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into really harty plants. since they are completly dryed up i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dont
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > think they could have any snailes in them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of snails I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the tank it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse to by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6926 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know Ray, I think you are right!! I recently noticed the tails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on one of my Angels looks like it was bit off, I also noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    watchin them fight constantly. What can I do about this? Its a 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gallon tank with only 2 Angels and 1 Pleco?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe, Since you've never had these two Angels spawn (or make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any attempt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to?), one possibility is that they are two males and that they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sparring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > over territory, although I don't know how long you've had them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Angels, as any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Cichlid, can vary as to disposition. With his possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    territoriality, this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > could be the reason why you're finding your Clown Loaches dead, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    hec may be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > attacking them as they come into his territory and they may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    know what he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > decides are his boundaries. This, of course, is just one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    scenario. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6927 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Really? I think I did try 2 at once and the same thing, one died the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    next day, and the following day another died. They are kinda pricey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to invest in, but if I cant find a yoyo loach, I will try buying 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    loaches.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > if you are only putting in 1 loach ata a time, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > may be the problem. i could not get them to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until i put them in groups of 3 or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > snails I cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank it dies). So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > www.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6928 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have not tried that, I have resolved to NEVER buy fish or plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    from Petco again. I am going to try the dried plants at Walmart that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    someone else suggested. Damn those snails are so annoying.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "scimitarss12003"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <scimitarss12003@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of snails I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the tank it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse to by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Have you tried soaking your plants in a bucket with snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > away. It only takes about half hour and the things will have all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > knocked out then they simple fall to the bottom of the bucket.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > leaving you with nice clean plants. One word of warning it will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > take out any eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6929 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Nim Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Nim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, thanks for your input! I really think the Angels are 2 males, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    have watched and watched and never see any eggs, they fight all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    time and never seem to get along. I have had them both about a year
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    thats as long as I have had the tank up, no matter what fish I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    put in they seem to either bother the Angels or the Angels bother
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    it, very annoying, only the Pleco seems to get along with them thats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    because he mostly keeps to himself, when I have seen him come out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they will peck at him too. I did just have a single zebra danio in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there and they didnt bother him too much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was upon the suggestion of someone else going to try adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    couple more Angels to see if that changes things. I just wish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    could keep a loach or two the snail count is unbelievable in my tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks so much!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Firstly in my experience the Angels unless very large and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    clowns very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > small, cannot kill the clowns as the clowns are much faster and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    can be more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > boisterous then the angels. They can however have the capability
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    to kill a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > clown loach if they have laid eggs and are protecting the eggs or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > spawning site. I have a pair of angels in a community with 3-4.5"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    clown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > loaches and it is only when the angels spawn, that they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    inflict a injury
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to the clowns. Only in 1 occasion that the clown was inflicted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > serious injury and that was when my orange chromides and angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    both laid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > eggs at just 6" apart. Dangerous situation and I had to remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    both their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > eggs ASAP to avoid them killing each other. Not sure of the injury
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > caused by the angels or the chromides but I would myself vote the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    chromides
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Male and females do have a fight very often before spawning and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > results in their fins a bit torn and nipped. Usually before the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spawning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > female is the one that gets nipped and after the spawning when the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    eggs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gone (eaten by either them or other fish) it's the male that gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    battered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > It is very much possible that you have missed the eggs, in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    community you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > will not reach the stage where the fry will hatch or even the eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    surviving
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more then 2 days. Just keep a watch what they are doing. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    seem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > friendly to each other even once, check for hidden spots where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    there could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > be eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > On the other hand if they both are males, this is a disaster
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    situation in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > small tank (less then 48") and the males will not tolerate each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    other within
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > visible distance. Since it is impossible to differentiate males
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > females except when spawning, adding more angels could cause more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > then help. If it is a 48"+ tank, then even 2 males should be fine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    in there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Keep watching what goes on and if you don't think that they get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    friendly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > even a day after 2 - 3 weeks and one of them is suffering very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bad, then it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is best to give him away. I had to give away 1 of my males when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > started to get out of control.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for clowns, as others have suggested that they don't take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    shipping very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > well, this could be a reason why they are diying rather then the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > killing them. How long have they been in the tank? How old is your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Faithe [mailto:faithe214@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: 10 November 2004 17:58
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6930 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    boy oh boy, now Im so confused, my Angels do lock jaws like they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kissing all in the midst of fighting. hmmm now I am wondering if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are male and female.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh boy..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks that was an interesting article!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ashley"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <gerbilheavenkennels@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Funny you ask this. I was just doing a ton of reading on Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > yesterday and here's what I found...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://websvirginia.com/angels/spawning/index.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Doesn't really determine if you have two males or a pair but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > try to see if one looks "heavy" or bulging up with eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6931 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Paul Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oranda's? Okay, I will research them, do you know of a good online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    source to buy one? After recently realizing how very poor the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    quality of fish are at Petco's etc. I refuse to every buy another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fish there, so I will now need a good source for fish, or might try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the local Mom and Pops that others say are better sources.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "bryants4god"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My oranda's eat all my pest snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 9:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Need a Source for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    SNAIL FREE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > aquarium plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > if you are only putting in 1 loach ata a time, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > may be the problem. i could not get them to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until i put them in groups of 3 or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Anyone know of one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I miss my plants, but already have an infestation of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > snails I cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > get rid of (every time I put a clown loach in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > tank it dies). So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > And I really like live plants in my tank, but refuse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to by ANYTHING
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > at the local pet stores anymore. I need some good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > resources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Faithe :D
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6932 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I did try adding leafs of lettuce in small glass jars that I sunk at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the bottom of the tank, thinking I would attract them, I was lucky
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    if got like 4 or 5 of them. Will try the floating leaf also.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Ray!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > For eliminating most of your snails, or at least keeping them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    under control
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > until you can get some Loaches established; try floating a lettuce
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    leaf in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank overnight. They will gather on it like bears to honey.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Remove the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > lettuce and repeat as needed. You may not get all of them, but at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    least for now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you won't be over-run. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6933 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    After this recent infestation with the white thread worms, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    pop eye with the Molly and of course my ongoing snail problem, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    after reading all the post's here, I realize its probably a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    idea to keep some meds handy. What are must haves in case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    bacterial, fungal etc infections?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also does anyone know of a really good fish book? I never see good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ones in the stores, even at Barnes and Noble?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6934 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They could still be male and male or even male and female. Locking the jaw
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    is fighting and even a male and female do fight. If the male is not strong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    enough to overpower the female, they will constantly fight without spawning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    just coz the male wants to spawn and the female does not and he is unable to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dictate his terms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    30 gallon tank is really too small for Angels IMPO and it would be wise to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    give them away rather then get more angels in with them. They can turn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    vicious very easily. My male angels has had the capabilities of keeping a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    group of 10-12 good sized tiger barbs under extreme stress in a 29 gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tank until I gave the barbs away.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Faithe [mailto:faithe214@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 17 November 2004 10:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    boy oh boy, now Im so confused, my Angels do lock jaws like they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kissing all in the midst of fighting. hmmm now I am wondering if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    they are male and female.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh boy..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks that was an interesting article!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ashley"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <gerbilheavenkennels@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Funny you ask this. I was just doing a ton of reading on Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > yesterday and here's what I found...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://websvirginia.com/angels/spawning/index.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Doesn't really determine if you have two males or a pair but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > try to see if one looks "heavy" or bulging up with eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful Angles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Faithe








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6935 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe,  Not much else you can do, except to either separate them (with a divider or use a second tank), or trade one of the angels in at your LFS.  No way you can prevent them from fighting unless you give them more room, like putting them in a 55 gallon tank (4' long).  One other thing you might try (no guarantees); if you are presently keeping the temperature up around 78 - 80, your turning it down to 72 - 73 only MAY make a difference in their behavior, the reasons being complicated but basically that may somewhat defuse their aggressiveness.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6936 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Watch your source for the Loaches and make SURE that they're healthy in the store.  Adjust them to your water slowly by adding a portion of your tank water to the bag water several times after the temperature equalizes.  Each time, pour off some excess water to allow room for some more tank water over a period of say 1/2 hour.  This should somewhat equalize the pH if there's any difference.   Do not pour the bag water into the tank.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6937 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FRE...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe,  Have you tried floating a piece of lettuce in the tank overnight?  Many snails will gather on the lettuce which you just discard.  Don't leave the lettuce in there too long as it will start to cloud the water, but overnight is okay.  Use a fresh piece of lettuce each night till you get rid of at least most of them.  You'll never really get rid of all of them that way, but it should help a bunch till you get your Loaches.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6938 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Nim Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :( Give them away? :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    They are so beautiful and I dont know anyone to give them to. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    would NEVER send them back to the nasty pet shops. Oh boy, I feel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so bad now :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mathur" <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > They could still be male and male or even male and female. Locking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the jaw
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > is fighting and even a male and female do fight. If the male is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    not strong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > enough to overpower the female, they will constantly fight without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    spawning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > just coz the male wants to spawn and the female does not and he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    unable to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dictate his terms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 30 gallon tank is really too small for Angels IMPO and it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    wise to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > give them away rather then get more angels in with them. They can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    turn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > vicious very easily. My male angels has had the capabilities of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    keeping a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > group of 10-12 good sized tiger barbs under extreme stress in a 29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > tank until I gave the barbs away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Faithe [mailto:faithe214@m...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: 17 November 2004 10:50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] for Ashley Re: Angel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > boy oh boy, now Im so confused, my Angels do lock jaws like they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kissing all in the midst of fighting. hmmm now I am wondering if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > they are male and female.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oh boy..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks that was an interesting article!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ashley"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > <gerbilheavenkennels@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Funny you ask this. I was just doing a ton of reading on Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > online
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > yesterday and here's what I found...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://websvirginia.com/angels/spawning/index.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Doesn't really determine if you have two males or a pair but you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > try to see if one looks "heavy" or bulging up with eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Good luck!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ashley
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > In one of my tanks (its a 30 gallon) I have 2 beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Angles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > assuming they are both the same sex, because I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > eggs or frye. Anyhow, I just noticed today one of my Angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fins
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > looks nibbled on like its shredded a bit, the other is fine, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > more than sure its from the other Angel (they fight nose to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    nose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > constantly) can anyone add to this? Perhaps this other fish is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > one who might have been killing all the clown loaches that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > recently kept introducing to my tank and I kept finding them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > the next morning. Anyone have any good insight?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I would be very very downtrodden to hear this might be due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > parasites etc, as I still have those freaking white worms in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > other tank. All of a sudden my beautiful fish tanks are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    turning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > into disasters :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6939 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My tank is a bit warm 80, I will try to lower it this seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    reasonable to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks so much Ray I appreciate it, I would hate to have to get rid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    of them, and I am really not up to a bigger tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe, Not much else you can do, except to either separate them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > divider or use a second tank), or trade one of the angels in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your LFS. No way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > you can prevent them from fighting unless you give them more room,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > putting them in a 55 gallon tank (4' long). One other thing you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    might try (no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > guarantees); if you are presently keeping the temperature up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    around 78 - 80, your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > turning it down to 72 - 73 only MAY make a difference in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    behavior, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > reasons being complicated but basically that may somewhat defuse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > aggressiveness. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6940 From: Faithe Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: for Ray re: introducing loaches into tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Aha! I just floated the bag for about a half our and removed most of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the water in the bag that the loach came in, and then set him into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the tank. I will mix the water next time (i will try this one more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    time).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Again Ray!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Watch your source for the Loaches and make SURE that they're
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    healthy in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > store. Adjust them to your water slowly by adding a portion of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    your tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to the bag water several times after the temperature equalizes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Each time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pour off some excess water to allow room for some more tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    over a period
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > of say 1/2 hour. This should somewhat equalize the pH if there's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > difference. Do not pour the bag water into the tank. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6941 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FREE aquariu...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay; Didn't see this 'till later. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6942 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for Ashley Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Faithe,  Before doing anything drastic, like getting rid of one of the Angels, try to determine if they are a male and female as Ashley suggested, although a mated pair (supposedly being compatible) should not constantly fight.  However, all angels (and Cichlids in general) can behave differently, having individual personalities.  Do you think you have just missed seeing any eggs that may have been laid?  Check again to see if one of them becomes a bit plumper and/or if there periodically is any difference in one's plumpness, like suddenly eggs were laid but you just didn;t see them.  If it is a pair, the lowering of the temperature should decrease their aggressivenesss in that case, as that will subdue their breeding instincts (which sometimes has a  lot to do with their behavior.  Jaw-locking and wrestling is sometimes involved with their breeding ritual, with each one testing the other's strength.  However, even that behavior is no guarantee of having a pair;  often, two males will lock jaws in a fight over territory, and occasionally two males of a different species (in Cichlids, of which Angels are) of Cichlids will lock jaws for the same reason.                                                                                                                There are other ways to tell male and female Angels apart, which I generally hesitate to point out, unless one is more experience with this species, as often these differences are subtle and are not 100% foolproof.  These generalities are: (1) The distance between the ventral fins ("feelers") and the anal fin (large, long bottom fin opposite the top fin) -- In females, this distance is, in general, longer than in the male, his distance usually noteably shorter. (2) The angle of the body in this region between the anal and ventral fins -- In females, this lower part of the body is more horizontal (more or less straight across), whereas in males, in this region the body is on an angle sloping up more sharply towards the head.  (3) Looking at the fish head on, the female's ventral fins are more spread out away from each other as opposed to the male's ventral fins which hang straight down.  (4) With larger fish (but only with very large fish), the top of the male's head becomes a bit more massive as compared to the female's.  Mind you, these are generalities, as sometimes even these "distinctions" can sometimes fool the experts, but at least its something to look for, as only the fish themselves know 100% of the time.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6943 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do not lower the temperature too fast; do it in stages.  Angels and most other tropicals will do perfectly fine at 73o.  Try 74 - 75 first and see what happens.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6944 From: paul helms Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    i like to stay natural, so i recommend pima fix,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    melafix, and stress zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > After this recent infestation with the white thread
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > worms, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > pop eye with the Molly and of course my ongoing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > snail problem, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > after reading all the post's here, I realize its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > probably a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > idea to keep some meds handy. What are must haves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > bacterial, fungal etc infections?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Also does anyone know of a really good fish book? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > never see good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ones in the stores, even at Barnes and Noble?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Group: AquaticLife Message: 6945 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For fungal and some bacterial problems, I keep jungle labs Fungus Eliminator.  It works pretty well.  Many people keep Melafix.  Epson salt is good for treating constipated fish, and Morton Pickling or Kosher salt is also a good thing to have in place of "aquarium salt", which is the same thing only expensive.  As for the stronger antibiotics, I have a real problem with their use on animals.  I know we love our animals, but they are already overused in humans, and they will one day create a super bacteria that we can't stop, and other crazy stuff like that.  Fish books are rare, I've never seen them for sale either. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      After this recent infestation with the white thread worms, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      pop eye with the Molly and of course my ongoing snail problem, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      after reading all the post's here, I realize its probably a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      idea to keep some meds handy.  What are must haves in case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bacterial, fungal etc infections?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also does anyone know of a really good fish book? I never see good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ones in the stores, even at Barnes and Noble?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6946 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Faithe,  If you are thinking of keeping medications on hand, instead of natural treatments like Mela-Fix, etc., be careful of what you stock, especially if you are getting Loaches.  Loaches are scaleless and dye medications like malachite green, methylene blue or acriflavine will penetrate their skin and kill them.  I believe I remember you saying you were using a medication for ich just recently.  If you were using this type of ich medication when you added and lost the Loach, this could be the reason why.  But I don't know when you added that Loach.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6947 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: totally easier solution for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FRE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Why not just get a zebra botia.. It is in the loach family it is a pretty small bottom feeder mine plays with my cories.. it was only 2 bucks... and it is so pretty and eats all the snails gone.... Seems like you are giogn to so much work for something that could be so easy.... I once hated snails with a passion... actually not that many months ago... and now I have come to embrace them cuse everyone I get is just a snack for my botia... he is the best thing I have ever added to my tank.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And actually I have made 3 trips to the petstore only to get snails just as a snack for my botia.. Cause I felt bad that all the snails were gone... I have put like atleast 60 snails in and he eats them up everytime... love that guy.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have not tried that, I have resolved to NEVER buy fish or plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      from Petco again. I am going to try the dried plants at Walmart that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      someone else suggested. Damn those snails are so annoying.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6948 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Go to amazon.com there are tons I have bought prolly the first 10 that when you do a search for freshwater aquariums you will see what I am talking about.. all have been good and helpful... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      After this recent infestation with the white thread worms, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      pop eye with the Molly and of course my ongoing snail problem, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      after reading all the post's here, I realize its probably a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      idea to keep some meds handy.  What are must haves in case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bacterial, fungal etc infections?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also does anyone know of a really good fish book? I never see good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ones in the stores, even at Barnes and Noble?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6949 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      hi all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel. Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around. Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25 (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      nitrite.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      History of tank just about 14 months in age. Mostly stable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      really stable for the last 7 months. No changes or new fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      last 3- 4 months Last reading was 0 in ammonia and 0 in Nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dated Nov,8th.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So here is my question did I test to early after I did this MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      upset or did something go wrong before this change. I'm sure I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      shocked and stirred up the bio in this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What should I do? My thought is to wait till later tonight and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      another test. Then if nitrite and ammonia haven't come down, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      another water change without stirring things up. How much water? By
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      waiting till tonight say about 4 more hours will that even help? Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      should I just go ahead with water change?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you ahead of time - Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6950 From: paul helms Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      at this point you are going to need to do a mini cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      of 3-4 weeks on that tanks. you have wiped out 2/3 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      your bio filtration by completely sucking out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      gravel and throwing out the pads that were growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      bacteria. most water treatments do not completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      neutralize water defects from the tap. at best they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      take care of 50-75%. there is probably some ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      in that, and you have probably freed unbroken down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      organic waste from the gravel that the bacteria was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > History of tank just about 14 months in age. Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > stable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > really stable for the last 7 months. No changes or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > new fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > last 3- 4 months Last reading was 0 in ammonia and 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > in Nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dated Nov,8th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > So here is my question did I test to early after I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > did this MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > upset or did something go wrong before this change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm sure I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > shocked and stirred up the bio in this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > What should I do? My thought is to wait till later
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > tonight and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > another test. Then if nitrite and ammonia haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > come down, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > another water change without stirring things up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > How much water? By
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > waiting till tonight say about 4 more hours will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > that even help? Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > should I just go ahead with water change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thank you ahead of time - Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Group: AquaticLife Message: 6951 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just wondering, why did you do all that?  Especially since it was really stable in the last 7 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hi all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel. Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around. Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25 (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6952 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Patrick :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the reasons I did "that" was one I wanted a change of scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for my eye. Two I got these new Japanese moss balls and wanted to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make sure they had enough room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to bounce around. And too kind of showcase them. And third some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish were getting a little territorial and the Julidochromis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        transcriptus were getting a bit aggressive. And last my live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were out of control, over grown and dead matter on them. And need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be spilt, plus my air wands need to be replaced they were all stuck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up. And the new ones I just laid in there (last week) till I could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        move gravel around to place them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Just wondering, why did you do all that? Especially since it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stable in the last 7 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel. Sucked out gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around. Replaced 7 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I was done. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit better. add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed out filter pad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank again water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25 (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6953 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I will be doing a small water change tomorrow. Haven't retested yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but will 1st thing in the morning. If they still read high then I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do the water change. I know it should be small but how small is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        small? In a 40 gallon. O yes the tank is very clear now but as we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know it doesn't mean anything. Sherrie


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at this point you are going to need to do a mini cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of 3-4 weeks on that tanks. you have wiped out 2/3 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your bio filtration by completely sucking out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel and throwing out the pads that were growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria. most water treatments do not completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neutralize water defects from the tap. at best they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > take care of 50-75%. there is probably some ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in that, and you have probably freed unbroken down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > organic waste from the gravel that the bacteria was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > History of tank just about 14 months in age. Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really stable for the last 7 months. No changes or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > new fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > last 3- 4 months Last reading was 0 in ammonia and 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in Nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Dated Nov,8th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So here is my question did I test to early after I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > did this MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > upset or did something go wrong before this change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm sure I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > shocked and stirred up the bio in this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > What should I do? My thought is to wait till later
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tonight and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another test. Then if nitrite and ammonia haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > come down, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another water change without stirring things up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > How much water? By
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > waiting till tonight say about 4 more hours will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that even help? Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > should I just go ahead with water change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thank you ahead of time - Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6954 From: paul helms Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't change any more water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        let teh tank run and cycle. if you want to help it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        add some live bacteria or electrolytes. i like stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        zyme. others like fritz zyme. i would use stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        zyme every 3 days for 2 weeks to stimulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        repopulation of the bacteria and let teh tank get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healthy. no more water changes. in the future only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel vac the top layer of gravel...like an 1/8 -1/4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inch, and don't change the pads for 2 weeeks after you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel vac.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thank paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I will be doing a small water change tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Haven't retested yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but will 1st thing in the morning. If they still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > read high then I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do the water change. I know it should be small but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > how small is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > small? In a 40 gallon. O yes the tank is very clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now but as we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know it doesn't mean anything. Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at this point you are going to need to do a mini
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of 3-4 weeks on that tanks. you have wiped out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2/3 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > your bio filtration by completely sucking out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gravel and throwing out the pads that were growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bacteria. most water treatments do not completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > neutralize water defects from the tap. at best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > take care of 50-75%. there is probably some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in that, and you have probably freed unbroken down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > organic waste from the gravel that the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another gallon of treated water to top off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 0.25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > History of tank just about 14 months in age.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really stable for the last 7 months. No changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > new fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > last 3- 4 months Last reading was 0 in ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > in Nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Dated Nov,8th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So here is my question did I test to early after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > did this MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > upset or did something go wrong before this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I'm sure I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > shocked and stirred up the bio in this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > What should I do? My thought is to wait till
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > later
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tonight and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another test. Then if nitrite and ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > come down, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another water change without stirring things up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > How much water? By
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > waiting till tonight say about 4 more hours will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > that even help? Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > should I just go ahead with water change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thank you ahead of time - Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6955 From: paul helms Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one thing that you need to remember , is that healthy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is not always pretty. by making it nicer you may kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your fish. it is best to spend a little time here and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there keeping things looking nice than it is to just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do it allat once. rapid change causes stress and can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lead to sudden rapid demise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Patrick :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well the reasons I did "that" was one I wanted a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change of scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for my eye. Two I got these new Japanese moss balls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and wanted to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > make sure they had enough room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to bounce around. And too kind of showcase them. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > third some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish were getting a little territorial and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Julidochromis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > transcriptus were getting a bit aggressive. And last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were out of control, over grown and dead matter on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them. And need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be spilt, plus my air wands need to be replaced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they were all stuck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up. And the new ones I just laid in there (last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > week) till I could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > move gravel around to place them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sherrie :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Just wondering, why did you do all that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Especially since it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stable in the last 7 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > completely redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sucked out gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Replaced 7 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was done. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > better. add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another gallon of treated water to top off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Changed out filter pad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank again water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 0.25 (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6956 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Consider this a tip: Whenever you do any major changes to a tank, do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fiddle with the filter/filters. They are the only things that you want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keep stable during this period. After about a month or so you can thunk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about cleaning the filter but still not discarding the media for another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple of months.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I redo most of my tanks every 6-8 months and on only 1 occasion I had a mini
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycle and that was coz of heavy pruning where the plants were competing with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the bacteria for ammonia and I removed a major chunk of them. The mini cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lasted 2 days as the media in my canister is all for biological purpose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (porous gravel).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t do any more water changes now and let the system stabilize on its own.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You already have some bacteria in there and stresszyme etc. should help them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        redevelop their colony.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: freedombell2002 [mailto:Kpribble@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 18 November 2004 08:19
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: need alittle help and advise "
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please"



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Patrick :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the reasons I did "that" was one I wanted a change of scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for my eye. Two I got these new Japanese moss balls and wanted to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make sure they had enough room
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to bounce around. And too kind of showcase them. And third some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish were getting a little territorial and the Julidochromis
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        transcriptus were getting a bit aggressive. And last my live plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were out of control, over grown and dead matter on them. And need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be spilt, plus my air wands need to be replaced they were all stuck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up. And the new ones I just laid in there (last week) till I could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        move gravel around to place them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Just wondering, why did you do all that? Especially since it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stable in the last 7 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel. Sucked out gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around. Replaced 7 gallons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I was done. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit better. add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed out filter pad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank again water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25 (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nitrite.








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6957 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: totally easier solution for Dave Re: Need a Source for SNAIL FRE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That method may work for you,but why go out and buy a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do not like or want just to get rid of snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6958 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Ray Re: Angel Fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Ray for the detailed info. I have never noticed one getting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little plumper, but am going to observe, and will lower the heat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very gradually. Its so funny because when I first got them they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        both so timid, however I guess after time living in such close
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quarters they are bound to get on each others nerves lol. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        printed out what you said and keep observing, I do think they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        both the same as every thing looks the exact same.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe, Before doing anything drastic, like getting rid of one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Angels, try to determine if they are a male and female as Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suggested, although
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a mated pair (supposedly being compatible) should not constantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > However, all angels (and Cichlids in general) can behave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        differently, having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > individual personalities. Do you think you have just missed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seeing any eggs that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > may have been laid? Check again to see if one of them becomes a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bit plumper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and/or if there periodically is any difference in one's plumpness,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like suddenly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eggs were laid but you just didn;t see them. If it is a pair, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lowering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of the temperature should decrease their aggressivenesss in that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        case, as that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will subdue their breeding instincts (which sometimes has a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to do with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their behavior. Jaw-locking and wrestling is sometimes involved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > breeding ritual, with each one testing the other's strength.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However, even that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > behavior is no guarantee of having a pair; often, two males will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lock jaws in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a fight over territory, and occasionally two males of a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        species (in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cichlids, of which Angels are) of Cichlids will lock jaws for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        same reason.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > There are other ways to tell male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Angels apart, which I generally hesitate to point out, unless one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > experience with this species, as often these differences are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        subtle and are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 100% foolproof. These generalities are: (1) The distance between
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the ventral
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins ("feelers") and the anal fin (large, long bottom fin opposite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the top fin)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -- In females, this distance is, in general, longer than in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        male, his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > distance usually noteably shorter. (2) The angle of the body in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this region
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > between the anal and ventral fins -- In females, this lower part
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the body is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more horizontal (more or less straight across), whereas in males,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in this region
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the body is on an angle sloping up more sharply towards the head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (3) Looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at the fish head on, the female's ventral fins are more spread out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        away from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each other as opposed to the male's ventral fins which hang
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        straight down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (4) With larger fish (but only with very large fish), the top of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the male's head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > becomes a bit more massive as compared to the female's. Mind you,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        these are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > generalities, as sometimes even these "distinctions" can sometimes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fool the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > experts, but at least its something to look for, as only the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        themselves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know 100% of the time. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6959 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Paul Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I didnt know there was the option for natural medicine for fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        am into that for myself, this is cool. So these three products are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        non chemical? This is the exact reason I will NOT treat the snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with any of that stuff they sell, I dont want to hurt my fish by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        adding copper or any of those chemicals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Paul.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i like to stay natural, so i recommend pima fix,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > melafix, and stress zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > After this recent infestation with the white thread
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > worms, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > pop eye with the Molly and of course my ongoing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > snail problem, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > after reading all the post's here, I realize its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > probably a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > idea to keep some meds handy. What are must haves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bacterial, fungal etc infections?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Also does anyone know of a really good fish book? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > never see good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ones in the stores, even at Barnes and Noble?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6960 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Ray Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh no Ray, the ich medicine that I used was in another tank, where I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have Mollies, I never used anything in my tank where the loaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are, aside from the snails in that tank (knock on wood) its in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        awesome condition! I am going to try the zebra botia's which are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        loach maybe they are more hardier than the clown loach? (they look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the exact same) I am going to try for a few of them, as I read they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like to be in groups, and will mix my water with their water as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suggested and hopefully it will work this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again Ray, I am learning a lot from you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe, If you are thinking of keeping medications on hand,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > natural treatments like Mela-Fix, etc., be careful of what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stock, especially if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you are getting Loaches. Loaches are scaleless and dye
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        medications like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > malachite green, methylene blue or acriflavine will penetrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their skin and kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them. I believe I remember you saying you were using a medication
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for ich
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just recently. If you were using this type of ich medication when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you added and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lost the Loach, this could be the reason why. But I don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when you added
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that Loach. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6961 From: Faithe Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Shannon RE: zebra botia for snail control
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Shannon, I am going to see if I can find some today! I hear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they should be kept in groups.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Why not just get a zebra botia.. It is in the loach family it is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > small bottom feeder mine plays with my cories.. it was only 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bucks... and it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so pretty and eats all the snails gone.... Seems like you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        giogn to so much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > work for something that could be so easy.... I once hated snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > passion... actually not that many months ago... and now I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        come to embrace them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cuse everyone I get is just a snack for my botia... he is the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thing I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have ever added to my tank.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > And actually I have made 3 trips to the petstore only to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails just as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > snack for my botia.. Cause I felt bad that all the snails were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gone... I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > put like atleast 60 snails in and he eats them up everytime...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        love that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guy.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > No Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have not tried that, I have resolved to NEVER buy fish or plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > from Petco again. I am going to try the dried plants at Walmart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > someone else suggested. Damn those snails are so annoying.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6962 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: totally easier solution for Dave Re: N...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cause from what I have learned it is more nautual than adding chemicals when I got the fish I was like ok its ugly but I have grown to really like it.. and if there is a simple solution that is totally cheap and not going to disrupt things as they are mellow fish why not... so that's my reasoning... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               That method may work for you,but why go out and buy a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do not like or want just to get rid of snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6963 From: Christina Chapman Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: snail free plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry if this info was already posted!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PetCo sells plants in containers w/ a gel base, a friend has used them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        w/ luck. Just make sure the ones you buy are truly aquatic, which many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stores sell terrestrial plants as such.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You can rid plants of snails by soaking them in Potassium Permanganate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (10mg/l) for 10 minutes. You can also find a diluted form of PP as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jungle's Clear Water at an LFS. (I use the latter, just making sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water is a purplish color when I dilute.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Alum: Available at drug stores. This kills microscopic bugs and snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eggs. 10 teaspoons to a gallon of water. Soak the plants for up to three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Household bleach: 1 part bleach to 19 parts water. Effective against
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pathogens, algae, and snails. Can also cause severe damage to plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        particularly sensitive stem plants. Do not allow the roots, bulbs, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rhizome to come in contact with the bleach. Soak for two minutes and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rinse completely with clear water and dechlor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have never had a snail problem, although I wish I did since I have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breed them now for puffer food!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6964 From: Ashley Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I recently did just about the same thing. I had stubs where some live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plants had been but had either floated to the top or the fish ate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them. The second thing was that my filter was bogged down from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        live plant matter sucked up the intake valve and not much water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        returning to the aquarium. I don't have air rods on my 30 or really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any of my tanks, just the filter so the filter working properly is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        important. I removed my filter cartridges and knew about the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so I just rinsed them off and replaced them. I also took the intake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        valve off and cleaned the plant material off the screen and from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inside the valve. The filter is working like new again. I needed to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a water change so I took about 20% of the water out to replace with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fresh water and suctioned the gravel in the process removing what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waste I found but not undoing the majority of the gravel. I removed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the stubs of plant material and redid the decor in the tank making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those bare unattractive places a bit nicer by replacing them with some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the plants who'd grown very well by cutting them back and making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new bunches. The fish were stressed I noticed, just by their color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fading a little while but they were normal just shortly after I was done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did this a couple days ago and everyone is right back to normal and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        things seem very settled into the slightly changed enviroment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at this point you are going to need to do a mini cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of 3-4 weeks on that tanks. you have wiped out 2/3 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your bio filtration by completely sucking out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel and throwing out the pads that were growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria. most water treatments do not completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neutralize water defects from the tap. at best they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > take care of 50-75%. there is probably some ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in that, and you have probably freed unbroken down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > organic waste from the gravel that the bacteria was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > History of tank just about 14 months in age. Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really stable for the last 7 months. No changes or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > new fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > last 3- 4 months Last reading was 0 in ammonia and 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in Nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Dated Nov,8th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So here is my question did I test to early after I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > did this MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > upset or did something go wrong before this change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm sure I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > shocked and stirred up the bio in this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > What should I do? My thought is to wait till later
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tonight and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another test. Then if nitrite and ammonia haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > come down, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > another water change without stirring things up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > How much water? By
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > waiting till tonight say about 4 more hours will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that even help? Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > should I just go ahead with water change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thank you ahead of time - Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6965 From: freedombell2002 Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay I retested today, the ammonia read .50 (mg/l) Yesterdays reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was 1.0 (mg/l) nitrites, today's reading somewhere in between 0 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        0.25 (mg/l). I only have the color chart test to go by. Haven't done
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything to tank, but take test, no water change, nothing. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this will just have to ride its self out, Fish seem fine not even the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cichlids really faded in color. And no funny breathing. (Labor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breathing) So I'm sure they should be fine (still crossing fingers)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that would be the last thing I wanted was to kill my fish. Thank you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        everyone for your help, just got a little panicked that I messed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        things up so bad and will just have to learn from it. And go slow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with my changes not time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank you again

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "freedombell2002"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thank paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I will be doing a small water change tomorrow. Haven't retested yet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but will 1st thing in the morning. If they still read high then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do the water change. I know it should be small but how small is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > small? In a 40 gallon. O yes the tank is very clear now but as we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know it doesn't mean anything. Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at this point you are going to need to do a mini cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of 3-4 weeks on that tanks. you have wiped out 2/3 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > your bio filtration by completely sucking out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gravel and throwing out the pads that were growing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bacteria. most water treatments do not completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > neutralize water defects from the tap. at best they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > take care of 50-75%. there is probably some ammonia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in that, and you have probably freed unbroken down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > organic waste from the gravel that the bacteria was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- freedombell2002 <Kpribble@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Okay I have a 39 eclipse fw tank, today I completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > redid my tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Meaning I took everything out, but the gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Sucked out gravel and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 7 gallons of water. Moved all my decor around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Replaced 7 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > treated water back in. Water was VERY murky when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > was done. I waited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > about 3 to 4 hours and water visibility was a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > better. add almost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another gallon of treated water to top off. Changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > out filter pad to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a new one. And waited another hour. Checked out tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > again water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > almost clear not crystal clear still isn't. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > decided to test water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and came out with 1.0 (mg/l) on the ammonia and 0.25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > (mg/l) on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > History of tank just about 14 months in age. Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stable, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really stable for the last 7 months. No changes or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > new fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > last 3- 4 months Last reading was 0 in ammonia and 0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > in Nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Dated Nov,8th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So here is my question did I test to early after I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > did this MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > upset or did something go wrong before this change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I'm sure I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > shocked and stirred up the bio in this tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > What should I do? My thought is to wait till later
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tonight and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another test. Then if nitrite and ammonia haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > come down, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > another water change without stirring things up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > How much water? By
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > waiting till tonight say about 4 more hours will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > that even help? Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > should I just go ahead with water change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thank you ahead of time - Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6966 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Shannon RE: zebra botia for snail co...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I haven't heard they need groups i thought that was the cories... but no clue hope it works for you.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Shannon, I am going to see if I can find some today! I hear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they should be kept in groups.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6967 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: need alittle help and advise " please"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ive tried many times to replant from the tops of my plants and never works the only thing i can get to work is the buds that come off my amazon sword that plant is producing like a factory i am almost out of space i got it in all my bettas tanks... with no light and they are still growing... so is there like a trick to getting the right cuttings off the top of the plant so that it grows i have a hornwort right now that is bent over.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I recently did just about the same thing. I had stubs where some live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plants had been but had either floated to the top or the fish ate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them. The second thing was that my filter was bogged down from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        live plant matter sucked up the intake valve and not much water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        returning to the aquarium. I don't have air rods on my 30 or really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any of my tanks, just the filter so the filter working properly is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        important. I removed my filter cartridges and knew about the bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so I just rinsed them off and replaced them. I also took the intake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        valve off and cleaned the plant material off the screen and from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inside the valve. The filter is working like new again. I needed to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a water change so I took about 20% of the water out to replace with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fresh water and suctioned the gravel in the process removing what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waste I found but not undoing the majority of the gravel. I removed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the stubs of plant material and redid the decor in the tank making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those bare unattractive places a bit nicer by replacing them with some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the plants who'd grown very well by cutting them back and making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new bunches. The fish were stressed I noticed, just by their color
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fading a little while but they were normal just shortly after I was done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did this a couple days ago and everyone is right back to normal and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        things seem very settled into the slightly changed enviroment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6968 From: dmichaelschmidt1967 Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Very, very old fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi. My name is Michael, and I am a new member in the group. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        joined the group because I have an interest in marine animals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        although probably a little different than the rest of the people on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this list. I am a commercial paleontologist, and I handle a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fossilized marine organisms including, but not limited to: bony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, sharks, stingrays, shrimp, lobster, crabs, skates, crinoids,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        horseshoe crabs, aquatic insects, squid, octopus, corals, seahorses,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        various echinoids and other echinoderms, marine reptiles and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amphibians, and a whole lot more (not to mention all of the other non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquatic fossil materials). I think it would be sometimes helpful to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        me, and hopefully interesting and enjoyable for the list membership,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if I posted photos occasionally of specimens that I would like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little modern info on. I know very little about a lot of modern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, and it's helpful to be able to compare them to their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        prehistoric counterparts. It is also helpful to have this info if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the specimen is being sold. So, hopefully I'll be able to wow you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guys a little bit with pics of some really cool, really old dead fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (but not really stinky). :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6969 From: paul helms Date: 11/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        melafix is a tea tree extract that heals pretty much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all scrapes , bites, and anything bacterial, including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healing nipped fins very rapidly. pima fix works on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        parasites, made =by the same company. stress zyme is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the components that bacteria need to reproduce, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        causes rapid reporoduction. i almost hate to admit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it, but i have been able to start with a new tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have fish in it the next day with 0 loss in the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        year. the stress zyme was added every 2-3 days for 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I didnt know there was the option for natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > medicine for fish, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am into that for myself, this is cool. So these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three products are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > non chemical? This is the exact reason I will NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treat the snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with any of that stuff they sell, I dont want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hurt my fish by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > adding copper or any of those chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks Paul.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i like to stay natural, so i recommend pima fix,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > melafix, and stress zyme.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > After this recent infestation with the white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thread
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > worms, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > pop eye with the Molly and of course my ongoing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > snail problem, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > after reading all the post's here, I realize its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > probably a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > idea to keep some meds handy. What are must
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > haves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > in case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bacterial, fungal etc infections?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Also does anyone know of a really good fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > book? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > never see good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ones in the stores, even at Barnes and Noble?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6970 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Very, very old fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Welcome to the group Michael,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It would be very interesting to have someone like you in the list and hope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        we all can learn a lot from each other :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: dmichaelschmidt1967 [mailto:dmichaelschmidt@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 19 November 2004 00:21
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Very, very old fish!






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi. My name is Michael, and I am a new member in the group. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        joined the group because I have an interest in marine animals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        although probably a little different than the rest of the people on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this list. I am a commercial paleontologist, and I handle a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fossilized marine organisms including, but not limited to: bony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, sharks, stingrays, shrimp, lobster, crabs, skates, crinoids,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        horseshoe crabs, aquatic insects, squid, octopus, corals, seahorses,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        various echinoids and other echinoderms, marine reptiles and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amphibians, and a whole lot more (not to mention all of the other non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquatic fossil materials). I think it would be sometimes helpful to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        me, and hopefully interesting and enjoyable for the list membership,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if I posted photos occasionally of specimens that I would like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little modern info on. I know very little about a lot of modern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, and it's helpful to be able to compare them to their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        prehistoric counterparts. It is also helpful to have this info if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the specimen is being sold. So, hopefully I'll be able to wow you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guys a little bit with pics of some really cool, really old dead fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (but not really stinky). :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Michael












                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6971 From: scimitarss12003 Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: totally easier solution for Dave Re: N...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree about the chemicals in the tank.But I use them in a bucket
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of water. Then the the plants are washed in fresh water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheers Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cause from what I have learned it is more nautual than adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chemicals when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I got the fish I was like ok its ugly but I have grown to really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like it.. and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if there is a simple solution that is totally cheap and not going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to disrupt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > things as they are mellow fish why not... so that's my reasoning...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That method may work for you,but why go out and buy a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do not like or want just to get rid of snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6972 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: My morning surprise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This morning I gave a holler loud enough to bring the cat and dog running to see what the heck was going on.  I lifted up the front of the hood on my 20 gallon to feed the fish and there was my golden snail.  It slid off leaving a trail of mucus and a huge pile of pink eggs, stuck firmly the the lid.  It floated down to the bottom dropping a few more along the way and then scurried off.  I had shut the lid again, reflex I guess, so I gingerly opened it up again.  That's a LOT of freaking eggs.  I guess my question is do snails routinely lay unfertile eggs?  I ask that because it was in there alone until a couple of weeks ago when I added a rather small ivory apple snail.  The size difference is quite significant.  I don't have any notion of when snails are big enough/old enough to...uhummmmm...get it on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6973 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: My morning surprise

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Apple snails can lay eggs weeks later then they have been fertilized. One of my apple snails does and other continued living until a couple of months later it laid a cluster of eggs which coz of my stupidity killed but when I eventually broke apart the cluster, it had tiny dead snails in there. It never laid eggs again (I dint deserve to see her eggs again).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But there is a possibility that the eggs are fertile. Cannot say about their maturity age so not sure if she could have been fertilized by the new smaller one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: dragon6435@... [mailto:dragon6435@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 19 November 2004 13:49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] My morning surprise

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This morning I gave a holler loud enough to bring the cat and dog running to see what the heck was going on.  I lifted up the front of the hood on my 20 gallon to feed the fish and there was my golden snail.  It slid off leaving a trail of mucus and a huge pile of pink eggs, stuck firmly the the lid.  It floated down to the bottom dropping a few more along the way and then scurried off.  I had shut the lid again, reflex I guess, so I gingerly opened it up again.  That's a LOT of freaking eggs.  I guess my question is do snails routinely lay unfertile eggs?  I ask that because it was in there alone until a couple of weeks ago when I added a rather small ivory apple snail.  The size difference is quite significant.  I don't have any notion of when snails are big enough/old enough to...uhummmmm...get it on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6974 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: totally easier solution for Dave Re: N...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well. I am not too against chemicals that are not too drastic. Everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nature is also chemicals. Using chemicals to kill snails is offensive not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        coz it is a chemical but coz it kills the snails which die in the tank and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rot and eventually spoil the water quality.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Using chemicals to modify PH using acids or bicarbonates is similar to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tannins released by rotting leaves in the Amazon basin or water overflowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        over a bed of limestone. Agreed the acid is sulphuric acid or the like but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when diluted it is no different from tannic acid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: scimitarss12003 [mailto:scimitarss12003@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 19 November 2004 10:45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] totally easier solution for Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Re: N...



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree about the chemicals in the tank.But I use them in a bucket
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of water. Then the the plants are washed in fresh water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheers Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cause from what I have learned it is more nautual than adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chemicals when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I got the fish I was like ok its ugly but I have grown to really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like it.. and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if there is a simple solution that is totally cheap and not going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to disrupt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > things as they are mellow fish why not... so that's my reasoning...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That method may work for you,but why go out and buy a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do not like or want just to get rid of snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Dave








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6975 From: bryants4god Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: My morning surprise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Snails can lay infertile clutches.  How long have you had the gold snail?  They can store sperm for 6 months. If it was over an 1" long when you got her she could have already been bred.  If the eggs were pink she is probably a cana, since they don't come in ivory the other snail is not so they will never lay fertile eggs from mating each other.  Both types are mature at 1" or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: dragon6435@... [mailto:dragon6435@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 7:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] My morning surprise

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This morning I gave a holler loud enough to bring the cat and dog running to see what the heck was going on.  I lifted up the front of the hood on my 20 gallon to feed the fish and there was my golden snail.  It slid off leaving a trail of mucus and a huge pile of pink eggs, stuck firmly the the lid.  It floated down to the bottom dropping a few more along the way and then scurried off.  I had shut the lid again, reflex I guess, so I gingerly opened it up again.  That's a LOT of freaking eggs.  I guess my question is do snails routinely lay unfertile eggs?  I ask that because it was in there alone until a couple of weeks ago when I added a rather small ivory apple snail.  The size difference is quite significant.  I don't have any notion of when snails are big enough/old enough to...uhummmmm...get it on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6976 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Very, very old fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would also like to see the pics and the info. I think it would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "dmichaelschmidt1967"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dmichaelschmidt@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi. My name is Michael, and I am a new member in the group. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > joined the group because I have an interest in marine animals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > although probably a little different than the rest of the people on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this list. I am a commercial paleontologist, and I handle a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fossilized marine organisms including, but not limited to: bony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, sharks, stingrays, shrimp, lobster, crabs, skates, crinoids,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > horseshoe crabs, aquatic insects, squid, octopus, corals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seahorses,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > various echinoids and other echinoderms, marine reptiles and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amphibians, and a whole lot more (not to mention all of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aquatic fossil materials). I think it would be sometimes helpful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > me, and hopefully interesting and enjoyable for the list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        membership,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if I posted photos occasionally of specimens that I would like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little modern info on. I know very little about a lot of modern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, and it's helpful to be able to compare them to their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > prehistoric counterparts. It is also helpful to have this info if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the specimen is being sold. So, hopefully I'll be able to wow you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guys a little bit with pics of some really cool, really old dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (but not really stinky). :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6977 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6978 From: rojeriko Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd suggest white mountain minnow. I kept 4 minnows and a beta in 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gal setup. Beta used to chase them from time to time, but they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        okay. They are hardier than the beta. They don't mind the low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        temperature either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6979 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not neon's mine have always nipped.... my bleeding heart tetras area bout 3 inches and are fairly docile. i also really like the hatchet fish as the add to the upper level of water and are very docile... but these are fish that need a filter and heather the betta does and doesnt like the movement in the water... so make sure there is an enough room in the tank where he can settle in a quiet place.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6980 From: dragon6435@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: My morning surprise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 11/19/04 10:55:19 AM Central Standard Time, bryants4god@... writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Snails can lay infertile clutches.  How long have you had the gold snail?  They can store sperm for 6 months. If it was over an 1" long when you got her she could have already been bred.  If the eggs were pink she is probably a cana, since they don't come in ivory the other snail is not so they will never lay fertile eggs from mating each other.  Both types are mature at 1" or more.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have had the snail for less than 6 months.  It was at least an inch in size when I got it.  It's grown a lot since then.  I'm extremely fond of the golden snail, but I tell you if I get a snail for each one of those eggs, it's going to look like a horror movie in that tank. <G>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Interesting to know the ivory one would be incompatable, sexually.  I have so fallen in love with these creatures, I just thought it was lovely.  Now, the black one in my bigger tank, I wonder about that.  If they were together, would the gold and black have a fling?  Feels a little funny to talk about snail sex, LOL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6981 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        go with the tetras, your betta will attack anything with long, flowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 19, 2004, at 12:22 PM, wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6982 From: bryants4god Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: My morning surprise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It depends on the species of the black one.  Generally brig's (the ivory one) don't get larger than a golf ball full grown.  The black one may be a brig too.  The cana's only come in gold, rust, caramel etc.  I don't think they come in black either.  Well neither do brigs but there is a dark shell with black stripes version which may be what you have.  My first snail was that color http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/snail2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The gold snail can get baseball size http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/new%20large%20snail/ns1.jpg  this is my 12 year old's hand holding 2 cana's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The 2 species will breed, you just won't get fertile eggs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have had the snail for less than 6 months.  It was at least an inch in size when I got it.  It's grown a lot since then.  I'm extremely fond of the golden snail, but I tell you if I get a snail for each one of those eggs, it's going to look like a horror movie in that tank. <G>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Interesting to know the ivory one would be incompatable, sexually.  I have so fallen in love with these creatures, I just thought it was lovely.  Now, the black one in my bigger tank, I wonder about that.  If they were together, would the gold and black have a fling?  Feels a little funny to talk about snail sex, LOL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Linda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6983 From: Ashley Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: My Snails Are Here!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks to Terri at Rainbow Snails my clutch arrived today very very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well packaged and they'd already started to hatch. I was so excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watching them burst from their eggs when I swished the clutch around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the nursery tank. They're so cute and small! I can't wait to watch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them grow. I have just one other apple snail and its a golden about an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1" in size. I think its a female and she's in the nursery tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the new babies. I do hope they all flurish!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6984 From: Donnie Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a beta in my 20 gal and she is all good. I've had her a year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In the tank I have 2- Blue Rams 1male 1fem (very pretty colors). I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also have 2- golden dojo's 4- neon tetras 2- glow fish 1- algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eating shrimp (about 2 inches long). It is a planted tank w/ fern,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anubias and african sword. None of my fish "nipple" or nibble on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beta.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Donnie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6985 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry of the miss spelling. As some of you already figured out I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        meant Nibble.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6986 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It very much boils down to most fish attitude. I have kept neons and pencil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish with Betta with no problems but had problems with mere Dwarf neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainbows. They have been fine with gouramis and gold barbs and then again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tortured by zebra danios and platies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Obviously things like serape tetras and tiger barbs will not be a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but what ever you keep with a betta, be careful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In my general experience, pencil fish, corydoras, possibally neons/cardinals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if in a group of 6+ etc. Anything other then this IMO does pose a bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        risk.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 19 November 2004 17:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Small fish question



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6987 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You may want to consider black phantom tetras. I have four black phantom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras in my community tank with a betta and everyone gets along very well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Gary


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: wolf1@... [mailto:wolf1@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: 19 November 2004 17:23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6988 From: paul helms Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the guppies will probably get beaten up, and neons can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get nippy too. generally they are fine, but i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ssen them go after guppies. prastilla tetras are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        great though. trhey have a yellowish brown body with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        black and yellow tipped fins. very peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6989 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oh that is dang funny.. i didn't even catch it just changed it in my brain.. hahaha good one Tammy.. thanks for the laugh.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry of the miss spelling. As some of you already figured out I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        meant Nibble.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6990 From: Rodrigo Jr. Marquez Date: 11/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Try Dario dario (aka Badis bengalensis) and Dario dayingensis. They have tolerant disposition and don't grow bigger than 3cm. You can also try bumblebee gobies. If you're lucky to find them, the pygmy barb and the pygmy rasbora as nice miniature fishes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Rod

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oh that is dang funny.. i didn't even catch it just changed it in my brain.. hahaha good one Tammy.. thanks for the laugh.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry of the miss spelling. As some of you already figured out I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        meant Nibble.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Discover all that�s new in My Yahoo!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6991 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 12/3/2004, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Friday December 3, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The next reminder for this event will be sent in 9 days, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.sfaquarium.org/about.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We meet the first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Founded in 1923, the San Francisco Aquarium Society is regarded as one of the nation's esteemed aquarium hobbyist organizations.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6992 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 11/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Hi - new to group...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi all. Been reading the archives and thought I would post an intro and story
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and stuff. Not really a question, may be loooong, and shows how you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really screw up a tank :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We live in very rural Australia. I always kept fish years ago, mostly local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainbowfish, which I found very intelligent and had several in a tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        years. That was back when there was more rain and water about and I haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seen any rainbowfish in the creeks in years with the continuous drought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        conditions we are having.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Since we moved to a small place we haven't had fish in years, but recently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        moved back into a larger place and so pulled the tanks out of storage and set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them up - mostly as one of my daughters was interested. These are a 12 and 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It was about this time that I started to realize that this was not going to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as easy as in years past. Back 20 years the water situation was much better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and the water was either from a freshwater stream or nice full clean dam -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which was ideal for the local rainbowfish and pretty much any other tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish without a lot of work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With 4 years of drought lately, the situation here is not so good. The best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water available at the moment here, apparently, is from a well/bore. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a nice bore and soft as far as bore water goes - ie it doesn't leave an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        instant continuous calcium scum on everything like the bore at our last place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        did. But it's still very hard. Like a gH of 400ppm and kH of 260ppm at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        last test. It's starting to look like a nice place for African cichlids, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that's another story.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Other water available is dirty, difficult to get dam water and rainwater which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is available only for about 3 months, at which time the bore water is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually available due to the tank situation. This leads to some very variable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tap water...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyway, at the time I wasn't worried too much about the hardness, tho
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        obviously with the alkalinity so high the Ph is around 8.0 out of the tap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But I went ahead and cylced the tanks with a half dozen local feeder type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies. Theis all went fine and the fish did well... These guys are even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still alive and well today, even after the later difficulties.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When the tanks looked stable we added a dozen neon and a couple of angel and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        few fancy guppies to the tank, though the pH was still high and not really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        easy to bring down with the alkalinity as it was. But the fish did okay. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eanded up leaving the pH at around 7.9 - 8.0 rather than fluctuate it trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to change it and 'see how it goes' as it was likely to be very stable if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nothing else...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Recently we did finally get rain. Not a lot, but enough to change the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        situation. It was then I'm realizing that water is not a constant here which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will make things interesting, but should be okay with some care...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The water hardness was still a concern, so decided on a partial waterchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the available water - now mostly rainwater mixed in with the bore water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's a remote area, so not too worried about chenicals, and I have checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out the tanks which seemed to test okay - soft pH 7.2 as expected...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About the same time we also introduced 6 glowlight tetra, which ended up being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a mistake, but only part of the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A few days later all did not seem well with the fish, esp the glowlight, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some of the guys were gasping as if there was an amonium problem, tho there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was never any trace of amonium in the tank ever. I had to go out so I did a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        25% water change anyway and figured I'd sort it out when I got back...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        While away (town is a long way) I did check out where I got the glowlights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        saw some unwell fish there as well. When I got home the fish looked worse and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        we started with the fatalities in the glowlight and eventually a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the neon and both the angels and some guppies. There was gasping and so forth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so tested everything. But ammonium was fine. After seeing the sick glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at the shop I thought disease, perhaps, tho that didn't explain all...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Then I tested the nitrite and it was through the roof. This just didn't make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any sence as there had never been any amonium spike I had seen. Since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        levels were so high I did another 25% water change on the tanks before losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the lot... But when retesting the tank the results were worse...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay, so then I started to test the water I was using. I checked various
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainwater tanks, and while some were 0 as expected, the main one on the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        supply, now on tap, was testing off-scale for nitrite... Talk about some poor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        work checking the water supply. I thought I'd checked everything...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Since the fish were not in great shape I did some major water changes. Had to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        use straight hard bore water which had to come in containers as the tanks are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all contaminated now. Probably 90% change overall and even then the nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was 0.5 or so but left it at that for a while to see how they would go, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        figured theyed had way too much change already.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But we haven't had any deaths in the last couple of days since the big water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes. Everyone looks a lot happier now and there are still 7 neon, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glowlight and some baby guppies in the big tank. pH has gone higher than ever
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        since the change though and somewhere around 8.4 now. nitrite has come down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from 0.5 to 0.3 since the water change, so I'm hoping that is on the right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        track at least...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So it's been a bad week. Maybe I might stick to the dogs rather than the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think... But the moral is to make sure you do some careful testing and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't miss things. Never would have dreamed there would have been that sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of nitrite level in the rainwater tank - and how some are so high while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        others are 0. Of course some might have leaf litter decomposing in them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm guessing this is where the problem came from...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The trouble is also we are out of town and I tend to get things like aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        supplies and so forth by mail order and so there is a delay in everything -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or an emergency all day run to town to get something you really really need.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hopefully this is sorted in the short term, but it's clear that the only water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can easily and safely use is from the well/bore and it's very hard for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tropicals - so cichlids are probably better. I've never kept these as people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have told me they are hard to keep and need very stable water etc...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They look like the right sort of fish for this water here to me though, maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is some opinion on that...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6993 From: Tri mac Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Ready for PICK UP! A glass 240, stand, 60gal. vat, glass lid, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ready for PICK UP! A glass 240, stand, 60gal. vat, glass lid, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        $1000.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6994 From: eshoemate@knology.net Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I dunno.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6995 From: bob Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: 55 and 29 GALLON TANKS FOR SALE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Both come with stand,filter,lights,gravel,fish if you want them.$150
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for 55 gal. and $100 for 29 gal. $200 for both,obo.located in north
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        central tennessee.email me at eyebeatbadgers@... for any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pics or other info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6996 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank other than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no need for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy.  I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I dunno.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6997 From: lois Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stress coat and fertilizer? that is all you use? really? I'm new at the hobby, love it, so Iam always reading these threads. so much to learn

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank other than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no need for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy.  I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I dunno.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6998 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i always keep melafix and salt around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 22, 2004, at 11:04 PM, lois wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stress coat and fertilizer? that is all you use? really? I'm new at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the hobby, love it, so Iam always reading these threads. so much to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <imstp_emo_en.gif>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 6999 From: paul helms Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what do you mean by preventative and stregthening?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i only use stress zyme in fresh water because it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keeps a larger supply of bacteria alive than you need,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        especially when the tank is healthy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "eshoemate@..." <dindrane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > members speak out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those "preventative and strengthening" additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that you can buy. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using them because like everyone else, I want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my fish to be happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are doing more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7000 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I believe in weekly water changes and filter maintenance is the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way to go along with making sure not to over crowd, over feed and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make sure to not stress them by having fish that do not get along
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        together. I have over 50 years in the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "eshoemate@k..."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dindrane@n...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buy. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7001 From: lois Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        why melafix, and salt, ( for a freshwater tank )?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i always keep melafix and salt around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 22, 2004, at 11:04 PM, lois wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stress coat and fertilizer? that is all you use? really? I'm new at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the hobby, love it, so Iam always reading these threads. so much to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7002 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because between the two of them, they treat almost all conditions you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        might encounter on an emergency basis. i like peeking some salt in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank, my fish get along better with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 12:42 AM, lois wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > why melafix, and salt, ( for a freshwater tank )?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i always keep melafix and salt around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 22, 2004, at 11:04 PM, lois wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stress coat and fertilizer? that is all you use? really? I'm new at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the hobby, love it, so Iam always reading these threads. so much to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7003 From: lois Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like how much salt would you put in a 55 gal., i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 cory cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 platties
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 gaurami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 betta male and 1 female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and 2 mollies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because between the two of them, they treat almost all conditions you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        might encounter on an emergency basis. i like peeking some salt in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank, my fish get along better with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 12:42 AM, lois wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > why melafix, and salt, ( for a freshwater tank )?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i always keep melafix and salt around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 22, 2004, at 11:04 PM, lois wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stress coat and fertilizer? that is all you use? really? I'm new at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the hobby, love it, so Iam always reading these threads. so much to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I dunno.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ~Erin
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7004 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can safely put in 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons no matter what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish you have, some people however, add more than that particularly for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mollys and any kind of carp.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 3:26 AM, lois wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like how much salt would you put in a 55 gal., i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 cory cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 platties
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 5neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 gaurami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 betta male and 1 female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and 2 mollies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > because between the two of them, they treat almost all conditions you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > might encounter on an emergency basis. i like peeking some salt in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank, my fish get along better with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 23, 2004, at 12:42 AM, lois wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > why melafix, and salt, ( for a freshwater tank )?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > amalthea23 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > i always keep melafix and salt around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > On Nov 22, 2004, at 11:04 PM, lois wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stress coat and fertilizer? that is all you use? really? I'm new at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the hobby, love it, so Iam always reading these threads. so much to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > What are you using?  I don't like any chemicals in my fish tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > than stress coat and plant fertilizer.  Usually, if there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for a chemical, it is bad.  If there is a need, it is less bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ~Erin
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7005 From: daniel_roachus Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small fish question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am trying to figure out what fish stay small like 2-3" and that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would not nipple on my betta's fins. I was thinking fancytailed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, or neon tetras. Any ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras (neon, glowlight or other small non-nippy ones) yes, guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no... long finned fish with bettas is a bad idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7006 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With cory cats in your community, its best not to add more than 11 tbsps of salt to the 55, or 1 tbsp per 5 gallons.  Cory's do not like too much salt.  When doing water changes, replace only the amount of salt you removed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7007 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Ashley Re: My Snails Are Here!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        LOL If I knew you needed snails Ashley I would have gladly shared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you some of mine and all for free LOL. :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ashley"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <gerbilheavenkennels@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks to Terri at Rainbow Snails my clutch arrived today very very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well packaged and they'd already started to hatch. I was so excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > watching them burst from their eggs when I swished the clutch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the nursery tank. They're so cute and small! I can't wait to watch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them grow. I have just one other apple snail and its a golden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1" in size. I think its a female and she's in the nursery tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the new babies. I do hope they all flurish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7008 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Michael Re: Very, very old fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Michael,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That sounds very, very interesting would love to see pictures and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        learn more. Very briefly we lived down on the Southeast Coast of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Florida and used to go shark tooth hunting, and would find all sorts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of neat looking fossils, dont know what they are, but they sure are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cool, I will go through what I have and have my daughter upload some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pictures so I can show you, maybe you might know. Anyhow, cool to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have you here!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "dmichaelschmidt1967"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dmichaelschmidt@s...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi. My name is Michael, and I am a new member in the group. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > joined the group because I have an interest in marine animals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > although probably a little different than the rest of the people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this list. I am a commercial paleontologist, and I handle a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fossilized marine organisms including, but not limited to: bony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, sharks, stingrays, shrimp, lobster, crabs, skates, crinoids,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > horseshoe crabs, aquatic insects, squid, octopus, corals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seahorses,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > various echinoids and other echinoderms, marine reptiles and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amphibians, and a whole lot more (not to mention all of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aquatic fossil materials). I think it would be sometimes helpful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > me, and hopefully interesting and enjoyable for the list
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        membership,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if I posted photos occasionally of specimens that I would like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little modern info on. I know very little about a lot of modern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish, and it's helpful to be able to compare them to their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > prehistoric counterparts. It is also helpful to have this info if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the specimen is being sold. So, hopefully I'll be able to wow you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guys a little bit with pics of some really cool, really old dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (but not really stinky). :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7009 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Tim Re: Hi - new to group...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Tim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So sorry to hear about your bad week, I am not really an expert,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still learning myself, so I cant really offer any info. However,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there are some very knowlegable kind folks here, who I am more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure will give you some good insight. Good Luck and DONT give up I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        almost did when a brand new tank we set up for our daughter became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        infested with UGLY squiggly white worms, I did a few things and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eventually we were able to get rid of them (by simply adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little zebra guy (forget his name at the moment). Anyhow, good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        luck!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Tim Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <tim@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi all. Been reading the archives and thought I would post an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        intro and story
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and stuff. Not really a question, may be loooong, and shows how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really screw up a tank :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We live in very rural Australia. I always kept fish years ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mostly local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rainbowfish, which I found very intelligent and had several in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > years. That was back when there was more rain and water about and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I haven't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > seen any rainbowfish in the creeks in years with the continuous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        drought
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > conditions we are having.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Since we moved to a small place we haven't had fish in years, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > moved back into a larger place and so pulled the tanks out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        storage and set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them up - mostly as one of my daughters was interested. These are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a 12 and 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallon tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It was about this time that I started to realize that this was not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        going to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as easy as in years past. Back 20 years the water situation was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and the water was either from a freshwater stream or nice full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clean dam -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which was ideal for the local rainbowfish and pretty much any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish without a lot of work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > With 4 years of drought lately, the situation here is not so good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water available at the moment here, apparently, is from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well/bore. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a nice bore and soft as far as bore water goes - ie it doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        leave an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > instant continuous calcium scum on everything like the bore at our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        last place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > did. But it's still very hard. Like a gH of 400ppm and kH of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        260ppm at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > last test. It's starting to look like a nice place for African
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cichlids, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that's another story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Other water available is dirty, difficult to get dam water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainwater which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is available only for about 3 months, at which time the bore water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > usually available due to the tank situation. This leads to some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        very variable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tap water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyway, at the time I wasn't worried too much about the hardness,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tho
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > obviously with the alkalinity so high the Ph is around 8.0 out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But I went ahead and cylced the tanks with a half dozen local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeder type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies. Theis all went fine and the fish did well... These guys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still alive and well today, even after the later difficulties.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > When the tanks looked stable we added a dozen neon and a couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        angel and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few fancy guppies to the tank, though the pH was still high and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > easy to bring down with the alkalinity as it was. But the fish did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        okay. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eanded up leaving the pH at around 7.9 - 8.0 rather than fluctuate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to change it and 'see how it goes' as it was likely to be very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stable if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nothing else...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Recently we did finally get rain. Not a lot, but enough to change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > situation. It was then I'm realizing that water is not a constant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will make things interesting, but should be okay with some care...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The water hardness was still a concern, so decided on a partial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        waterchange
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with the available water - now mostly rainwater mixed in with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bore water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It's a remote area, so not too worried about chenicals, and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out the tanks which seemed to test okay - soft pH 7.2 as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        expected...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About the same time we also introduced 6 glowlight tetra, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ended up being
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a mistake, but only part of the problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A few days later all did not seem well with the fish, esp the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glowlight, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some of the guys were gasping as if there was an amonium problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tho there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was never any trace of amonium in the tank ever. I had to go out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so I did a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 25% water change anyway and figured I'd sort it out when I got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        back...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > While away (town is a long way) I did check out where I got the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glowlights and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > saw some unwell fish there as well. When I got home the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        looked worse and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > we started with the fatalities in the glowlight and eventually a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the neon and both the angels and some guppies. There was gasping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and so forth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so tested everything. But ammonium was fine. After seeing the sick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glowlights
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at the shop I thought disease, perhaps, tho that didn't explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Then I tested the nitrite and it was through the roof. This just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        didn't make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any sence as there had never been any amonium spike I had seen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > levels were so high I did another 25% water change on the tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        before losing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the lot... But when retesting the tank the results were worse...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay, so then I started to test the water I was using. I checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        various
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rainwater tanks, and while some were 0 as expected, the main one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        on the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > supply, now on tap, was testing off-scale for nitrite... Talk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about some poor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > work checking the water supply. I thought I'd checked everything...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Since the fish were not in great shape I did some major water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes. Had to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use straight hard bore water which had to come in containers as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tanks are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all contaminated now. Probably 90% change overall and even then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the nitrite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was 0.5 or so but left it at that for a while to see how they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would go, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figured theyed had way too much change already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > But we haven't had any deaths in the last couple of days since the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        big water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > changes. Everyone looks a lot happier now and there are still 7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neon, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > glowlight and some baby guppies in the big tank. pH has gone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        higher than ever
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > since the change though and somewhere around 8.4 now. nitrite has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        come down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > from 0.5 to 0.3 since the water change, so I'm hoping that is on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > track at least...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So it's been a bad week. Maybe I might stick to the dogs rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think... But the moral is to make sure you do some careful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        testing and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't miss things. Never would have dreamed there would have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that sort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of nitrite level in the rainwater tank - and how some are so high
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > others are 0. Of course some might have leaf litter decomposing in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm guessing this is where the problem came from...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The trouble is also we are out of town and I tend to get things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > supplies and so forth by mail order and so there is a delay in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        everything -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or an emergency all day run to town to get something you really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really need.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this is sorted in the short term, but it's clear that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the only water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I can easily and safely use is from the well/bore and it's very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hard for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tropicals - so cichlids are probably better. I've never kept these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have told me they are hard to keep and need very stable water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > They look like the right sort of fish for this water here to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        though, maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there is some opinion on that...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Email mailto:tim@b...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7010 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two tanks and only one cyphon, (when its in my budget and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remember i will pick up another) in the meantime, the last time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        used the cyphon was in my daughters tank when we had that nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        infestation of white worms (thankfully they are GONE) anyhow, I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to do some water changes in both my tanks. Is it NOT good to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that other cyphon the one I used when we had the white worms? I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been storing it outside (we live in MA its been below freezing a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        times since) anyhow, can I reuse it, or should I clean it out with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something if so what? Or should I not reuse it and buy another?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Inquiring minds need to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7011 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If it has dried, then it probably has lost any thing growing in the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But if you want to make yourself comfortable, wash it with hot water and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should be fine to use.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ps: I have only 1 siphon for my entire setup of 4 tanks(had 7 previously)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Faithe [mailto:faithe214@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 23 November 2004 14:17
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is this a dumb question? (cyphon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        related)



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two tanks and only one cyphon, (when its in my budget and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remember i will pick up another) in the meantime, the last time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        used the cyphon was in my daughters tank when we had that nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        infestation of white worms (thankfully they are GONE) anyhow, I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to do some water changes in both my tanks. Is it NOT good to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that other cyphon the one I used when we had the white worms? I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been storing it outside (we live in MA its been below freezing a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        times since) anyhow, can I reuse it, or should I clean it out with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something if so what? Or should I not reuse it and buy another?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Inquiring minds need to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7012 From: Ashley Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Ashley Re: My Snails Are Here!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Faithe, its so exciting watching them grow and get color. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wouldn't say I "needed" them but wanted to have them. Some of my tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        won't be suitable for snails being that the ph is kept low and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish really would try to make a snack of the snails, but I do have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        several others that would be ideal with a high ph and friendly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful fish. Plus of course my snail tank. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > LOL If I knew you needed snails Ashley I would have gladly shared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you some of mine and all for free LOL. :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Ashley"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <gerbilheavenkennels@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks to Terri at Rainbow Snails my clutch arrived today very very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > well packaged and they'd already started to hatch. I was so excited
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > watching them burst from their eggs when I swished the clutch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the nursery tank. They're so cute and small! I can't wait to watch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them grow. I have just one other apple snail and its a golden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 1" in size. I think its a female and she's in the nursery tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the new babies. I do hope they all flurish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7013 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Tim Re: Hi - new to group...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Wednesday 24 Nov 2004 00:12, Faithe wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Tim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So sorry to hear about your bad week, I am not really an expert,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still learning myself, so I cant really offer any info. However,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there are some very knowlegable kind folks here, who I am more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure will give you some good insight. Good Luck and DONT give up I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > almost did when a brand new tank we set up for our daughter became
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > infested with UGLY squiggly white worms, I did a few things and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eventually we were able to get rid of them (by simply adding a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little zebra guy (forget his name at the moment). Anyhow, good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > luck!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, the 40g tank seems to be settling down again and the nitrite level is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        almost undetectable by the test again now. The few tough little local fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that went through the original cycle are still alive and kicking in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and there are 9 tetra that seem okay for the moment. Added some guppies from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the 12g tank to the 40g tank as the 12g tank is still not quite right and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrite is staying a little high. Maybe too many fish for it to handle at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        moment, but trying not to overtax the bigger tank either...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Looks like we are stuck with a pH of 8.4 or so however. I thought the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was 7.9-8.0, but is sneaks up to 8.4 once settled it seems. Since the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is so hard I suspect it will be very stable at that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There seems to be a varied opinion on high pH and how well various fish cope
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with it. It's not something I had to deal with in the past as our water was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quite soft. I realize stable pH and conditions are most important, but 8.4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seems high for the type of fish we have at the moment, tho I suppose the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies prefer higher than the neon...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7014 From: Brad Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I used to use all sorts of different stuff and never had good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        results, always lost lots of fish. I switched from conditioned tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water to rain water (or melted snow) and the improvements were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fantastic. I now lose about 1-3 fish a year compared to that many a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        month before. I alway change the water and clean the filters regular.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The only things I add are a bit of baking soda to buffer the ph,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainwater is too soft to be stable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Brad Harding

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "eshoemate@k..."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dindrane@n...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7015 From: eshoemate@knology.net Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do weekly water changes, where I change out about 1/4-1/3 of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is that about right? I learned that amount from a relative in the hobby.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Erin



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:25:28 -0000, "dreammaker2623"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dreammaker2623@...> wrote :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I believe in weekly water changes and filter maintenance is the best <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > way to go along with making sure not to over crowd, over feed and <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > make sure to not stress them by having fish that do not get along <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > together. I have over 50 years in the hobby.<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7016 From: eshoemate@knology.net Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks! How much baking soda do you use per gallon? You don't find any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        microbial problems from the rainwater? I'll try it!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Erin



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:13:05 -0000, "Brad" <bradh905@...> wrote :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I used to use all sorts of different stuff and never had good <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > results, always lost lots of fish. I switched from conditioned tap <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water to rain water (or melted snow) and the improvements were <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fantastic. I now lose about 1-3 fish a year compared to that many a <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > month before. I alway change the water and clean the filters regular.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The only things I add are a bit of baking soda to buffer the ph, <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rainwater is too soft to be stable.<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Brad Harding<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7017 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If its a long syphon, you probably have it stored in a loop or two.  There probably will be a section in the looping (if it is looped) that hasn't dried out.  If that's the case, it might be best to disinfect it just to play it safe.  Fill a large bucket with water and a few ounces of bleach; submerse the hose, but make sure the inside of the hose is completely filled with the water/bleach and that there are no air pockets.  If you're not in a hurry leave overnight in bucket (not outside to freeze) and rinse in the morning.  Otherwise, leave it sit for a couple of hours, that's plenty enough time.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7018 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ray,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How about just running hot water from the tap through the hose. That should also remove any pathogens?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 23 November 2004 19:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If its a long syphon, you probably have it stored in a loop or two.  There probably will be a section in the looping (if it is looped) that hasn't dried out.  If that's the case, it might be best to disinfect it just to play it safe.  Fill a large bucket with water and a few ounces of bleach; submerse the hose, but make sure the inside of the hose is completely filled with the water/bleach and that there are no air pockets.  If you're not in a hurry leave overnight in bucket (not outside to freeze) and rinse in the morning.  Otherwise, leave it sit for a couple of hours, that's plenty enough time.  Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7019 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim,  Hot water may do the trick, but everyone has their own idea of how hot to make their hot water.  I'm just afraid any extra hardy pathogens just may survive a hot water flush, even if its just a very few.  I figure its best to kill 'em outright to make sure.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7020 From: paul helms Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you do weekly wate changes, the fish will do great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but if you skip them here and there, your tank will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into mini cycles and you may risk loss. i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't over stock, don't over feed, and use double the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recommended filtration. i do water changes about once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ayear of 25% and top off with ro water the rest of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "eshoemate@..." <dindrane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do weekly water changes, where I change out about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1/4-1/3 of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is that about right? I learned that amount from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > relative in the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:25:28 -0000, "dreammaker2623"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <dreammaker2623@...> wrote :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I believe in weekly water changes and filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maintenance is the best <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > way to go along with making sure not to over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crowd, over feed and <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > make sure to not stress them by having fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do not get along <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > together. I have over 50 years in the hobby.<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7021 From: paul helms Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just rinse it out with high pressure, like the garden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hose on high butted up to it, to make sure in dried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dead worms are out....other than that no problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reusing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have two tanks and only one cyphon, (when its in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my budget and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remember i will pick up another) in the meantime,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the last time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > used the cyphon was in my daughters tank when we had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > infestation of white worms (thankfully they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > GONE) anyhow, I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to do some water changes in both my tanks. Is it NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > good to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that other cyphon the one I used when we had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > white worms? I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been storing it outside (we live in MA its been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > below freezing a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > times since) anyhow, can I reuse it, or should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clean it out with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something if so what? Or should I not reuse it and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > buy another?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Inquiring minds need to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7022 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Hi - new to group...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Tim,  Noticed you're about 300 miles (480 kilometers) south of Cairns, if I'm not mistaken.  There used to be some nice Rainbows collected from up around that area and on the Cape York Peninsula in general.  I don't know whether it would be convenient for you to take a drive up Highway Route N-1, or for that matter I don't know whether the drought extends up that far north, but its just a suggestion.  Other than that, maybe you could look into contacting one of the aquarium societies such as ANGFA (Australia New Guinea Fishes Association in Ringwood, Victoria or the Canberra and District Aquarium Society in Canberra City.  Perhaps they may have sources for some of the Rainbow species; they may even be raising them themselves.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7023 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the thing is, the tank was infested not with disease, but with worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        related to over feeding and under cleaning. there's no worry about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        transferring them to with the siphon. just keep up with the cleaning,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and don't feed too much and you won't have to worry about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 3:16 PM, sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim,  Hot water may do the trick, but everyone has their own idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > how hot to make their hot water.  I'm just afraid any extra hardy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pathogens just may survive a hot water flush, even if its just a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few.  I figure its best to kill 'em outright to make sure.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7024 From: Faithe Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Ray Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ***Yes, I tend to agree with Ray, the LAST thing I want is those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nasty things coming and back and especially in my other tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the Angels. Thanks so much Ray I really appreciate. Thanks everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the suggestions, I guess it wasnt a dumb question after all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim, Hot water may do the trick, but everyone has their own idea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of how hot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to make their hot water. I'm just afraid any extra hardy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pathogens just may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > survive a hot water flush, even if its just a very few. I figure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        its best to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kill 'em outright to make sure. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7025 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Hi - new to group...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Wednesday 24 Nov 2004 06:45, sevenspringss@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Tim, Noticed you're about 300 miles (480 kilometers) south of Cairns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if I'm not mistaken. There used to be some nice Rainbows collected from up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around that area and on the Cape York Peninsula in general. I don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whether it would be convenient for you to take a drive up Highway Route
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > N-1, or for that matter I don't know whether the drought extends up that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > far north, but its just a suggestion. Other than that, maybe you could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > look into contacting one of the aquarium societies such as ANGFA (Australia
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > New Guinea Fishes Association in Ringwood, Victoria or the Canberra and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > District Aquarium Society in Canberra City. Perhaps they may have sources
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for some of the Rainbow species; they may even be raising them themselves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That would be about right. 500-600km to cairns or thereabouts so not too far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to get up that way. I'm confident they are still in good numbers in the north
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as the drought has not been as bad up that way. Also quite likely to be some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in the streams just north of townsville. I go up that way quite often. There
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are a couple of larger streams down this way that may still have remaining
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainbows as well and I'm going to check those out. The wet season is starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        soon (already getting some reaonable rain for a change) and any that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around will be moving upstream once the creeks run, so I will be looking out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for them. Hopefully we will get a normal extended wet season this year and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the streams will run for a few months like they should!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7026 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So this has me curious as to why if you skip a water change it matters.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you do weekly wate changes, the fish will do great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but if you skip them here and there, your tank will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into mini cycles and you may risk loss.  i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't over stock, don't over feed, and use double the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recommended filtration. i do water changes about once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ayear of 25% and top off with ro water the rest of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7027 From: bellbott0m Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Help!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I need help ASAP my toddler poured milk in my 55 gallon fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank--when he called for me to see it was completely cloudy! We did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a fast change of H20 (45 %) The water is still cloudy but I can at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        least see the fish. I have Glass catfish, rainbow fish, tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        choridoras (?), clown loaches, yo-yo loach, red tail shark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chocolate catfish and an algie eater. Any advice on what to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        next?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7028 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd put some new carbon in the filter and let that run through. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shouldn't harm them too much and the carbon will get any contaminates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out of the water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 9:22 PM, bellbott0m wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I need help ASAP my toddler poured milk in my 55 gallon fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank--when he called for me to see it was completely cloudy!  We did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a fast change of H20 (45 %) The water is still cloudy but I can at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least see the fish.  I have Glass catfish, rainbow fish, tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > choridoras (?), clown loaches, yo-yo loach, red tail shark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chocolate catfish and an algie eater.  Any advice on what to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > next? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7029 From: Steve Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is not the softness of the water that makes the pH unstable, it is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buffering capacity of the water that does. Water can be very soft, yet have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a high pH, while conversely, water can be very hard and have a low pH. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buffering capacity of the water is called alkalinity (no relation to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        alkaline we use to refer to water that is over 7 pH, but the chemistry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        behind it really eludes me, so I can't really explain it in terms that most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would understand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for the initial question which I seem to have missed (I had some problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with my mail server the last week or so), beyond the initial treatment of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water to remove chloramines, I don't use any treatment at all. Should the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish show signs of distress, I do my best to diagnose it, as well as doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an initial water change. For the most part, treatments consist of heat and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt, depending on the specific distress, unless I can specifically diagnose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Diagnosing an illness in fish is rather difficult. There are only a few that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will stand up and hit you in the face. The rest are just best guesses on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        behalf of the observer. This is why you don't see me participating in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guessing games that go on here when someone has a sick fish. It is hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough to diagnose in person, and the difficulty of diagnosis rises
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        exponentially without seeing the fish and having other factors such as water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quality, other tank inhabitants, etc., right at hand, something that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quite often left out in reports here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Brad [mailto:bradh905@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Preventative Medicine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chest




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I used to use all sorts of different stuff and never had good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        results, always lost lots of fish. I switched from conditioned tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water to rain water (or melted snow) and the improvements were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fantastic. I now lose about 1-3 fish a year compared to that many a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        month before. I alway change the water and clean the filters regular.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The only things I add are a bit of baking soda to buffer the ph,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rainwater is too soft to be stable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Brad Harding

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "eshoemate@k..."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dindrane@n...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd also like to hear some of our more experienced members speak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those "preventative and strengthening" additives that you can buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using them because like everyone else, I want my fish to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        happy and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy, but I wonder sometimes if all the chemicals are doing more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than good, and good tank maintenance is the best preventative...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dunno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7030 From: Steve Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't believe that is true. What may happen is that the water in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        becomes more acidic, due to the biological processes occurring in the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The fish will slowly acclimate themselves to the change in pH. Then you do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water change, and BANG! the pH rises, perhaps too much for some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weaker fish, and you may lose some due to the shock of the change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However, depending on your filtration, and your cleaning procedures, you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        notice a slight rise in the nitrogenous measurements. This is because you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have removed too many of the "good" bacteria (nitrosoma and nitrobacter) and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they need some time to regenerate the population to handle the normal load
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in your tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have been away for weeks at a time, and not done water changes, but, upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my return, doing several more smaller water changes, and using less than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vigorous cleaning methods, have lost nary a fish, other than possibly some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fry, who may have been lost any way for other reasons.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Preventative Medicine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chest



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you do weekly wate changes, the fish will do great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but if you skip them here and there, your tank will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into mini cycles and you may risk loss. i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't over stock, don't over feed, and use double the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recommended filtration. i do water changes about once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ayear of 25% and top off with ro water the rest of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "eshoemate@..." <dindrane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do weekly water changes, where I change out about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1/4-1/3 of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is that about right? I learned that amount from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > relative in the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:25:28 -0000, "dreammaker2623"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <dreammaker2623@...> wrote :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I believe in weekly water changes and filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maintenance is the best <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > way to go along with making sure not to over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crowd, over feed and <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > make sure to not stress them by having fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do not get along <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > together. I have over 50 years in the hobby.<BR>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7031 From: Julie Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My toddler did this to my 30gal. I did what you did and changed out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        carbon in the filter. Everything was ok. Hope all goes well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "amalthea23" <amalthea23@...>



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd put some new carbon in the filter and let that run through. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shouldn't harm them too much and the carbon will get any contaminates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out of the water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 9:22 PM, bellbott0m wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I need help ASAP my toddler poured milk in my 55 gallon fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank--when he called for me to see it was completely cloudy! We did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a fast change of H20 (45 %) The water is still cloudy but I can at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least see the fish. I have Glass catfish, rainbow fish, tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > choridoras (?), clown loaches, yo-yo loach, red tail shark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chocolate catfish and an algie eater. Any advice on what to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > next?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7032 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I disagree with that whole thing, but it works for Paul (and many others) so I won't fuss. :)  I do water changes at 25% weekly or every other week.  The more often you do a water change, the less likely the water in the tank will be too far off from what is in the sink (pH, hardness, etc).  On the other hand, if you severely under stock the tank, nitrates might never build up.  The method I use is over stocked, well-planted, low feeding, no maintenance other than water changes.  Not really sure how there could be a mini-cycle, that implies that the cycle is an event.  The cycle is a cycle, circle, never-ending process.  The mini-cycle happens ever few minutes, test kits just aren't accurate enough to show it.  Ammonia and nitrite never equal 0.00. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are as many ways as there are people. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So this has me curious as to why if you skip a water change it matters.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you do weekly wate changes, the fish will do great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but if you skip them here and there, your tank will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into mini cycles and you may risk loss.  i personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't over stock, don't over feed, and use double the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recommended filtration. i do water changes about once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ayear of 25% and top off with ro water the rest of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7033 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            First, white worms aren't dangerous.  But they aren't great either.  I doubt they are gone, just hiding for now. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If this is just a regular gravel vacuum, I wouldn't worry.  Water is only going to be flowing from the tank and almost none will go back into the tank.  If it is the fancy version that attaches to the sink (I don't like them, they are ripping people off selling those things when a simple garden hose and a few cheap connections would cost a lot less) you will have something to worry about, but I doubt it would be too much, in my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two tanks and only one cyphon, (when its in my budget and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remember i will pick up another) in the meantime, the last time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        used the cyphon was in my daughters tank when we had that nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        infestation of white worms (thankfully they are GONE) anyhow, I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to do some water changes in both my tanks. Is it NOT good to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that other cyphon the one I used when we had the white worms? I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been storing it outside (we live in MA its been below freezing a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        times since) anyhow, can I reuse it, or should I clean it out with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something if so what? Or should I not reuse it and buy another?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Inquiring minds need to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7034 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/23/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        great. i'm sure it will be ok, mild isn't particularly toxic, though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you might want to check the ph and do small (10%) water changes for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        next few days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 23, 2004, at 11:19 PM, Julie wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My toddler did this to my 30gal. I did what you did and changed out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > carbon in the filter. Everything was ok. Hope all goes well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "amalthea23" <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'd put some new carbon in the filter and let that run through. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shouldn't harm them too much and the carbon will get any contaminates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out of the water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 23, 2004, at 9:22 PM, bellbott0m wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> I need help ASAP my toddler poured milk in my 55 gallon fresh water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> tank--when he called for me to see it was completely cloudy! We did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> a fast change of H20 (45 %) The water is still cloudy but I can at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> least see the fish. I have Glass catfish, rainbow fish, tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> choridoras (?), clown loaches, yo-yo loach, red tail shark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> chocolate catfish and an algie eater. Any advice on what to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> next?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7035 From: ranchugirl Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Big goldfish show in January
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi, my name is Andrea, and I am an avid goldfish collector. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kept these swimming beauties for over 6 years now, and currently have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around 140 goldfish and koi. Im an also an active member of the GFSA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Goldfish society of America), and trying to spread the word about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        great show coming up!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The South Florida koi, goldfish and watergarden club is holdings its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4. anual koi and goldfish show this January again. Instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        outdoors and in Miami, this year for the first time it will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        indoors, at the Fishing Hall of Fame, in Ft. Lauderdale.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Here is the link, just click on the "4. anual show" emblem, and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will get you to the show details....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.geocities.com/koifla/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This year the goldfish show will be tremendously larger than the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        previous years, around 50-60 fish so far, but with the show still 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        months away, the number might even go up. There will be seminars on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        basic fish keeping, parasites and other illnesses, maintenance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        different kinds of goldfish breeds, etc. The goldfish judge will lead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a tour through the show area and explaining why he picked the fish he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        did, and how to spot a potential show fish in a petstore crowd. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tour usually lasts 2-3 hours and is a real treat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Besides the usual koi stuff there are also vendors for goldfish, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well as watergarden items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So, escape the cold further up north, and spend a few sunny days in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Florida. Its the perfect extended Martin-Luther-King weekend!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Andrea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7036 From: bellbott0m Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So far, so good. The fish are not in distress and the water looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clearer this am. Thank you so much for the good advice!! BTW I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new to this group, sorry my introduction was not more settle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol : )--- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea23 <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > great. i'm sure it will be ok, mild isn't particularly toxic,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you might want to check the ph and do small (10%) water changes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > next few days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 23, 2004, at 11:19 PM, Julie wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > My toddler did this to my 30gal. I did what you did and changed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > carbon in the filter. Everything was ok. Hope all goes well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: "amalthea23" <amalthea23@m...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'd put some new carbon in the filter and let that run through.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > shouldn't harm them too much and the carbon will get any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        contaminates
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out of the water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > On Nov 23, 2004, at 9:22 PM, bellbott0m wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> I need help ASAP my toddler poured milk in my 55 gallon fresh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> tank--when he called for me to see it was completely cloudy!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> a fast change of H20 (45 %) The water is still cloudy but I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> least see the fish. I have Glass catfish, rainbow fish, tetra,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> choridoras (?), clown loaches, yo-yo loach, red tail shark,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> chocolate catfish and an algie eater. Any advice on what to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> next?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7037 From: paul helms Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a mini c ycle is a term used to describe what occurs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when there is insufficient bacteria to handle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ammonia that is present to a tank after it has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cycled. it is generally shorter than a 4-6 week cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because there is some established bacteria in place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        already. generally lasts about 3 weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, I disagree with that whole thing, but it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > works for Paul (and many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > others) so I won't fuss. :) I do water changes at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 25% weekly or every other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > week. The more often you do a water change, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > less likely the water in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank will be too far off from what is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sink (pH, hardness, etc).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On the other hand, if you severely under stock the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank, nitrates might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > never build up. The method I use is over stocked,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well-planted, low feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > no maintenance other than water changes. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really sure how there could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be a mini-cycle, that implies that the cycle is an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > event. The cycle is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cycle, circle, never-ending process. The mini-cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > happens ever few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minutes, test kits just aren't accurate enough to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > show it. Ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nitrite never equal 0.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > There are as many ways as there are people. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So this has me curious as to why if you skip a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change it matters....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if you do weekly wate changes, the fish will do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but if you skip them here and there, your tank will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > into mini cycles and you may risk loss. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't over stock, don't over feed, and use double
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommended filtration. i do water changes about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ayear of 25% and top off with ro water the rest of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7038 From: paul helms Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: skipping water changes...Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        imo, if you are constantly changing the water, you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        removing ammonia from the tank, preventing it from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        building up, which is good, but will result in less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria in the tank over all, as less is needed. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you then skip water changes for a few weeks or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whatever your frequency is, then the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        organic wastes taht was being removed before is now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        present, and more bacteria must grow to eliminate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in this case, i have seen smaller spikes that mimic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the 3-4th week of a cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So this has me curious as to why if you skip a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change it matters....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if you do weekly wate changes, the fish will do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > great,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but if you skip them here and there, your tank will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > into mini cycles and you may risk loss. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > personally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't over stock, don't over feed, and use double
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommended filtration. i do water changes about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ayear of 25% and top off with ro water the rest of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7039 From: Brad Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Preventative Medicine Chest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am afraid I do not measure how much baking soda I add. I just keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some in a shaker and give a shake into the tank when ever the KH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reading drops too low. If I had to estimate I likely add about 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        teaspoon a month (4x10% changes) into a 55 gal tank. This usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        puts me around the 8 drops of hardness that keeps the ph stable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Someone made a comment that it is the buffering not the hardness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that keeps the ph stable. That is true, but the disolved salts that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        create hardness are buffering compounds too so there is a pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        close relationship between the KH hardness reading and the buffering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        against ph shift.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have been using baking soda as a low cost buffer, but it tends
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to drive the ph high too. Anybody have any other suggested materials
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other than those expensive tablets sold at the pet store?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Brad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "eshoemate@k..."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dindrane@n...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks! How much baking soda do you use per gallon? You don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        find any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > microbial problems from the rainwater? I'll try it!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:13:05 -0000, "Brad" <bradh905@y...> wrote :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I used to use all sorts of different stuff and never had good <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > results, always lost lots of fish. I switched from conditioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tap <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water to rain water (or melted snow) and the improvements were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fantastic. I now lose about 1-3 fish a year compared to that many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > month before. I alway change the water and clean the filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regular.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The only things I add are a bit of baking soda to buffer the ph,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > rainwater is too soft to be stable.<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Brad Harding<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7040 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 12/4/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Saturday December 4, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The next reminder for this event will be sent in 7 days, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a Yahoo! Greeting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Birthday Reminders
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Copyright ©  2004  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7041 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you are going to use a hose then make sure that it is fit for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        drinking water. Some hoses will leach harmfull substances that may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make your fish sick or even kill them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7042 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 11/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Aquatic salamanders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        does anyone here keep salamanders, I have 4 at the moment in a 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon or so terririum (2 of which just morphed at of the larval
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stage) they seem to be in love 1 female huge and 1 male skinner. Could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she be pregnant? Do they have to lay eggs than the male fertilizes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them or do they mate? Sorry new to them. I figured it would be ok to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        list this here because they did live 100% in the water until last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        week. I'd love to share pictures and here stories if anyone has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salamanders. Their is 2 tigger barred salamanders and 2 blotched tiger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salamanders?. Not positive on the last two.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7043 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Bay Area Killifish Association (BAKA) , 11/30/2004, 7:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bay Area Killifish Association (BAKA)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tuesday November 30, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7:00 pm - 8:00 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This event does not repeat.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Event Location: Round Table Pizza, 20920 Redwood Road in Castro Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.sfbaka.net/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Quarterly Meetings

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BAKA meets on the third Saturday in Feb, May, Aug and Nov.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Next Meeting -- November 20, 2004


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Where:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Round Table Pizza
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        20920 Redwood Road in Castro Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        near Highway 580 & the Castro Valley BART Station.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Who:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone interested in killies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Greetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a Yahoo! Greeting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Birthday Reminders
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Set up birthday reminders!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Copyright ©  2004  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7044 From: Faithe Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am so disappointed and frustrated. So much for thinking they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all gone, I went to do a water change and they all started doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their nasty dance again. I dont get it, this tank is brand spanking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new only 2 months old I added some plants from Petco a pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Molly from Petco and shortly after the babies were born my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        noticed those gross worms, I know its from overfeeding, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treated with some green tablet, with frequent water changes with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some ich medicine and even addad a zebra tetra or whatever you call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it and they wont leave, at this point I am willing to add anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can anyone PLEASE suggest something that will work. I am not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        healthiest so I dont have a huge reserve of strength to break down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank and scrub it, not to mention what would I do with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while doing that? there is absolutely NO way I will add them to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other tank (you know that beautiful tank with snails and angels? uggh


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A very frustrated fishkeeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7045 From: Faithe Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Patrick Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey Patrick you are right they were just hiding :(


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hate them they give me the willies I want them gone and also your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right its a regular gravel vacuum. Im so grossed out and paranoid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that Im just going to get another cyphon for my other tank I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cant risk those worms getting in my other tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > First, white worms aren't dangerous. But they aren't great
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        either. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > doubt they are gone, just hiding for now. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If this is just a regular gravel vacuum, I wouldn't worry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only going to be flowing from the tank and almost none will go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        back into the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. If it is the fancy version that attaches to the sink (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them, they are ripping people off selling those things when a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        simple garden
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hose and a few cheap connections would cost a lot less) you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something to worry about, but I doubt it would be too much, in my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have two tanks and only one cyphon, (when its in my budget and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remember i will pick up another) in the meantime, the last time I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > used the cyphon was in my daughters tank when we had that nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > infestation of white worms (thankfully they are GONE) anyhow, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to do some water changes in both my tanks. Is it NOT good to use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that other cyphon the one I used when we had the white worms? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been storing it outside (we live in MA its been below freezing a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > times since) anyhow, can I reuse it, or should I clean it out with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something if so what? Or should I not reuse it and buy another?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Inquiring minds need to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7046 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK a few weeks ago i asked a question about trimming my hornwort... it has now got really large and i have tried several times in the past to cut it in the right place or whatnot and replant it tying the ends together with a lead weight like how it is when i bought it from the store and keep it in my tank now.. but everytime they just die what am i doing wrong does anyone know the trick about this.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7047 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greetings,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I understand how you feel since I had an experience with these things too. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        purchased some live plants from a local pet store and shortly thereafter I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had these same squiggly worms as you call them. Actually I think they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some sort of snails. I tried everything to get rid of them including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        removing all of the gravel and letting it sit out on the enclosed porch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        overnight (this was during the dead of winter in Pennsylvania). Nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        worked until I put all of my fish in a container and completely broke down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank. I dumped the gravel out in the driveway and replaced it with new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stuff. EVERYTHING else was also either cleaned thoroughly or replaced. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was a big pain and not cheap but this worked for me. The problematic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        parasites have not reappeared in the couple of years it has been now and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        attribute that to the fact that I have since never purchased live plants for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Gary

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Faithe" <faithe214@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 5:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Those White Squiggly Worms are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        BACK


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am so disappointed and frustrated. So much for thinking they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all gone, I went to do a water change and they all started doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their nasty dance again. I dont get it, this tank is brand spanking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new only 2 months old I added some plants from Petco a pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Molly from Petco and shortly after the babies were born my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > noticed those gross worms, I know its from overfeeding, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treated with some green tablet, with frequent water changes with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some ich medicine and even addad a zebra tetra or whatever you call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it and they wont leave, at this point I am willing to add anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Can anyone PLEASE suggest something that will work. I am not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthiest so I dont have a huge reserve of strength to break down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank and scrub it, not to mention what would I do with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while doing that? there is absolutely NO way I will add them to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other tank (you know that beautiful tank with snails and angels? uggh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A very frustrated fishkeeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7048 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you really need not get so stressed about this. the worms are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unattractive, but not harmful. what would be best is to take 3 or 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        days off of feeding your fish altogether and then only feed them one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time a day after that. you're just overfeeding, that's where the worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        come from. it will take a while for them to go, there is no "instant"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cure, but once there isn't enough food for them to subsist on, they'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 26, 2004, at 5:28 PM, Faithe wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am so disappointed and frustrated. So much for thinking they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all gone, I went to do a water change and they all started doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their nasty dance again.  I dont get it, this tank is brand spanking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new only 2 months old I added some plants from Petco a pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Molly from Petco and shortly after the babies were born my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > noticed those gross worms, I know its from overfeeding, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treated with some green tablet, with frequent water changes with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some ich medicine and even addad a zebra tetra or whatever you call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it and they wont leave, at this point I am willing to add anything. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Can anyone PLEASE suggest something that will work. I am not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthiest so I dont have a huge reserve of strength to break down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank and scrub it, not to mention what would I do with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while doing that? there is absolutely NO way I will add them to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other tank (you know that beautiful tank with snails and angels? uggh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A very frustrated fishkeeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7049 From: EDITHAN1@AOL.COM Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms areBACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are the worms white threadlike approx. 1/4 inch long and how were you able to determine they were from over feeding?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7050 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms areBACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they're a very very common tank pest, most fish keepers encounter them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at some point or another and that is what they're from. when people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        follow the directions on fish food containers, they're overfeeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish do NOT need to eat 3-4 times a day, that just sells more food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 26, 2004, at 7:11 PM, EDITHAN1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are the worms white threadlike approx. 1/4 inch long and how were you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > able to determine they were from over feeding?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7051 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Patrick Re: Is this a dumb question? (cyphon related)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I figure you will never be rid of them completely without sterilizing and starting over.  That would be a waste of time because they will eventually come back.  I doubt they came in on plants, they probably are always in the water.  They are no danger, they just look bad.  I don't worry about them in my tanks.  In fact, I spread some to my fry tank to give them something extra to eat. :)  And don't worry about a second gravel vac/siphon, the other tank will eventually have them too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June '04.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey Patrick you are right they were just hiding :(


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hate them they give me the willies I want them gone and also your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right its a regular gravel vacuum. Im so grossed out and paranoid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that Im just going to get another cyphon for my other tank I really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cant risk those worms getting in my other tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7052 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hornwort is a floating plant.  The rumors of its ability to grow tied down are greatly exaggerated.  Mine dies off or floats to the top when I tie it down, but what floats grows so fast I regret getting the stuff. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, red tiger lotus, amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK a few weeks ago i asked a question about trimming my hornwort... it has now got really large and i have tried several times in the past to cut it in the right place or whatnot and replant it tying the ends together with a lead weight like how it is when i bought it from the store and keep it in my tank now.. but everytime they just die what am i doing wrong does anyone know the trick about this.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7053 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wow i love the stuff i have it planted in my tank as the girl at my LFS that i actually like lol said she did it after she couldn't get anything to live.. but i was hesitant cause before i had had it and it was floating and it got burned and died  burned from the light i guess... so i have had it tied down about 2 months now.. it has tripled in size it is like a weed lol... maybe I should just leave it all draped over my tank but the tip of it is starting to discolor so I was afraid that it was burning like last time.. Also it blocks the light so I was unsure about that.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hornwort is a floating plant.  The rumors of its ability to grow tied down are greatly exaggerated.  Mine dies off or floats to the top when I tie it down, but what floats grows so fast I regret getting the stuff. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7054 From: Barbara Linden Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have hornwort and it does great floating in my aquariums. I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pinch it off when it gets too big. If you don't want to share it w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        friends or put it an w/ other fishies, it's good for your garden!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, I toss all sort of fruit and veggie scraps into our flower
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beds all the time. Not the seeds though...I don't need apple trees,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc., coming up in my flower beds!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wow i love the stuff i have it planted in my tank as the girl at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my LFS that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i actually like lol said she did it after she couldn't get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything to live..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but i was hesitant cause before i had had it and it was floating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and it got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > burned and died burned from the light i guess... so i have had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tied down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about 2 months now.. it has tripled in size it is like a weed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol... maybe I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should just leave it all draped over my tank but the tip of it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        starting to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > discolor so I was afraid that it was burning like last time.. Also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it blocks the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > light so I was unsure about that.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hornwort is a floating plant. The rumors of its ability to grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tied down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are greatly exaggerated. Mine dies off or floats to the top when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I tie it down,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but what floats grows so fast I regret getting the stuff. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7055 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks that is a good idea i wonder how it would work in my betta tanks that don't have light... do you know.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have hornwort and it does great floating in my aquariums.  I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pinch it off when it gets too big.  If you don't want to share it w/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Friends or put it an w/ other fishies, it's good for your garden! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, I toss all sort of fruit and veggie scraps into our flower
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beds all the time.  Not the seeds though...I don't need apple trees,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc., coming up in my flower beds!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        :~)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7056 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Those White Squiggly Worms areBACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are right about overfeeding. Another thing that you can do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hasten getting rid of them is to do water changes and vac the gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each time to get some of the uneaten food out of the gravel each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time. If you take away the food then they cannot survive. Theuy are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what I consider an indicator species in that they will tell if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are overfeeding the tank. They will not survive in a tank that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not overfeed. All four of my tanks are heavily planted and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not found any of these worms so do not blame the plants. When you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get a new plant you might want to rince the plant off in the sink
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        before you put th;em in your tank. That might help to keep snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out of your tank too. When I encounter a snail I just squash it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        against thee glass and it becomes fresh fish food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7057 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I don't know about it burning under the lights, I guess it is possible.  I have had it grow well in very low light, meaning just what it got from the room lights.  It even grew well in a gallon bucket for a while until I finally figured out how to clump it together to float. :)  It has tripled in size since I got it about a year ago, and that is not counting all of it I feed to my snail!  I have two clumps in my 10 gallon and it really blocks too much light, but the only other plant is the java fern now and it doesn't need much light.  When I first got it it wouldn't grow and almost all died.  After a few months it took off again and hasn't stopped.  When it was tied down, the bottom died out from under it and the stem broke off and it floated to the top.  I figure it is because the bottom didn't get enough light so it "gave up" the bottom to let the top grow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wow i love the stuff i have it planted in my tank as the girl at my LFS that i actually like lol said she did it after she couldn't get anything to live.. but i was hesitant cause before i had had it and it was floating and it got burned and died  burned from the light i guess... so i have had it tied down about 2 months now.. it has tripled in size it is like a weed lol... maybe I should just leave it all draped over my tank but the tip of it is starting to discolor so I was afraid that it was burning like last time.. Also it blocks the light so I was unsure about that.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7058 From: dawnmvo Date: 11/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I used to have them for bettas, and have given up on them. Mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were not floating and did fine, but they got out of control. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would pinch them about once a month and they were fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dawn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7059 From: ben olds Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        =====
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have a great day! Ben...



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7060 From: paul helms Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hprnwart doe snot grow a good root system like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anacharus...just let it float
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK a few weeks ago i asked a question about trimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my hornwort... it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now got really large and i have tried several times
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the past to cut it in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > right place or whatnot and replant it tying the ends
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > together with a lead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weight like how it is when i bought it from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store and keep it in my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now.. but everytime they just die what am i doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrong does anyone know the trick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about this.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7061 From: paul helms Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        african frogs will munch on them just like blood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        worms. i have only had 1 white worm inmy tank, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        came in the bag with a fish. i stirred up the rock to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make it float and my angels ate it right away. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        frogs should scavange fro them and are only 2-3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dollars each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am so disappointed and frustrated. So much for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thinking they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all gone, I went to do a water change and they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > started doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their nasty dance again. I dont get it, this tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is brand spanking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new only 2 months old I added some plants from Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Molly from Petco and shortly after the babies were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > born my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > noticed those gross worms, I know its from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > overfeeding, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treated with some green tablet, with frequent water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > changes with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some ich medicine and even addad a zebra tetra or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whatever you call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it and they wont leave, at this point I am willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to add anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Can anyone PLEASE suggest something that will work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthiest so I dont have a huge reserve of strength
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to break down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank and scrub it, not to mention what would I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while doing that? there is absolutely NO way I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add them to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other tank (you know that beautiful tank with snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and angels? uggh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A very frustrated fishkeeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7062 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe,  Since you know that the "white squiggly worms" (Planaria) come from overfeeding, as you've already said, that's the point at which to control them.  And since you have been overfeeding, its a good bet that there's excess food down in the gravel.                                                                                                                 First, do a thorough gravel vacuuming to get as much as that uneaten food out of there, and continue with water changes.  When you do feed, feed only enough that they will clean up in 10 minutes.  Net out any food that's left over after that time.       Add one tbsp of aquarium salt (or non-iodized canning/Kosher salt) for every 5 gallons, and replace (only) the lost salt when you do water changes.  That should help control them.  Add another cory catfish or two to clean up and another zebra or two to eat them.  Molly babies usually eat those worms also.                                                    There are medications to get rid of them as well, but you really shouldn't need to go that drastic if you just use proper maintenence and more controlled feeding.  But to let you know what they are, you can use such things as Clout, Quick-Cure and Potassium Permanganate.  All of these can be a little risky, with the last one the milder of these three methods.                                                                              The first two will also kill snails and can kill scaleless fish such as Botias.  Best to use at half recommended dosage, especially if you have Tetras.  Clout will permanently stain the sealer in the corners of your tank though, as will Potassium permanganate.  This last one has also been used for Ich; it turns the water a cranberry color (pink-purple) and is an oxodizer.  You need to increase the aeration when using it.  After the first day, the water will start to turn brown, but it will take a number of water changes to remove all the discoloration.  Several ounces of thoroughly disolved Hydrogen peroxide will neutralize it, but water changes is the best way to go.  So as you see, there are other ways of controlling these Flatworms if needed.                                                                                                        The easiest, safest and most convenient way to control them however, is by going back to the original suggestion; clean the bottom, use less food, add salt and consider adding Cory's and/or Zebras if there's room.  Zebras like to be in a group anyhow as do Cory's.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7063 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: help with plants in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yea i am thinking that is why mine died breaking off.. but this bundle was tied down really well and it was thick so it is kinda padded maybe that is why it is flourishing.. i guess ill try some in my betta tanks.. but i am trying to get the snails to populate in there so i don't want dead plants ending up cuse i would have to disrupt the babies lol... i know i was trying to get rid of snails and now i cant seem to get any of the to populate... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I don't know about it burning under the lights, I guess it is possible.  I have had it grow well in very low light, meaning just what it got from the room lights.  It even grew well in a gallon bucket for a while until I finally figured out how to clump it together to float. :)  It has tripled in size since I got it about a year ago, and that is not counting all of it I feed to my snail!  I have two clumps in my 10 gallon and it really blocks too much light, but the only other plant is the java fern now and it doesn't need much light.  When I first got it it wouldn't grow and almost all died.  After a few months it took off again and hasn't stopped.  When it was tied down, the bottom died out from under it and the stem broke off and it floated to the top.  I figure it is because the bottom didn't get enough light so it "gave up" the bottom to let the top grow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7064 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a snail hatchery tank that I crumble fish flakes for and snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        produce an extreme amount of waste so siphoning out the waste is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        frequent thing. I have found out where my worms are coming from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They've only showed up in my turtle tank and snail tank and its only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after I place veggies in the tank for snacking on. Never fails and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have worms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Will the snails eat the worms or are they dangerous to my snails? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have Apple snails and they're all very small still only hatched a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ago so they're still growing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Help Please!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7065 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I doubt your worms are appearing from the veggies you add to the tank. If you can see the worms after the vegetables are added, chances are you'll see them BEFORE the vegs' are there. You may or may not need a magnifier, but if you look closely at the gravel-line, and just above it and below it, very closely, you should see them crawling or swimming on the glass and gravel, because beneficial bacteria are growing there, and fish-food and waste are accumulating there. That's what the worms thrive on. I believe I brought those little creatures into my tanks when I bought plants that contained unwanted snails and snail eggs, and since it's a widely known fact that 'pond-snails' harbor worms/parasites, deduced the snails as the probable host. If you have a digital-camera with a 'macro' capability, and set it on a tripod, and use a timer, you may get a good shot of the worms. Truth is, there are lots of different kinds of small white worms, but they usually appear when plants, with or without snails/snail-eggs are added to the tank, if the the aforementioned came from an environment (usually, ultimately an outdoor aquarium-plant-farm) that harbored the right conditions. Any animal or plant that was in a tank that contained any of the environment in a chain of events to the original breeding place could contain the worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a snail hatchery tank that I crumble fish flakes for and snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > produce an extreme amount of waste so siphoning out the waste is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frequent thing. I have found out where my worms are coming from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > They've only showed up in my turtle tank and snail tank and its only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after I place veggies in the tank for snacking on. Never fails and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Will the snails eat the worms or are they dangerous to my snails? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have Apple snails and they're all very small still only hatched a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ago so they're still growing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Help Please!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7066 From: paul helms Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the snails won't eat the worms, and teh worms are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        coming from vegetables. they are not going to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out to eat flake, but may like the veggies you put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and come out to eat them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Ashley <gerbilheavenkennels@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a snail hatchery tank that I crumble fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > flakes for and snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > produce an extreme amount of waste so siphoning out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the waste is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frequent thing. I have found out where my worms are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > coming from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > They've only showed up in my turtle tank and snail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank and its only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after I place veggies in the tank for snacking on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Never fails and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Will the snails eat the worms or are they dangerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to my snails? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have Apple snails and they're all very small still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only hatched a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ago so they're still growing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Help Please!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7067 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There is no gravel in my snail tank and there weren't worms in it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        before. I had to look extremely closely to see the snails when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first hatched so I would have seen the worms then too. My turtle tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has had no new plants and has no snails in it. The only new addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was the green beans. The snail hatchlings were from a very clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeder who had no worm problems so they didn't come from the snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is there anything you can do to get rid of them without a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank change? I will do that when the snails are big enough to remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and even clean but right now they're just too small.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I doubt your worms are appearing from the veggies you add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank. If you can see the worms after the vegetables are added, chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are you'll see them BEFORE the vegs' are there. You may or may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        need a magnifier, but if you look closely at the gravel-line, and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        above it and below it, very closely, you should see them crawling or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        swimming on the glass and gravel, because beneficial bacteria are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        growing there, and fish-food and waste are accumulating there. That's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what the worms thrive on. I believe I brought those little creatures
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into my tanks when I bought plants that contained unwanted snails and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snail eggs, and since it's a widely known fact that 'pond-snails'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        harbor worms/parasites, deduced the snails as the probable host. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you have a digital-camera with a 'macro' capability, and set it on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tripod, and use a timer, you may get a good shot of the worms. Truth
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is, there are lots of different kinds of small white worms, but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually appear when plants, with or without snails/snail-eggs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        added to the tank, if the the aforementioned came from an environment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (usually, ultimately an outdoor aquarium-plant-farm) that harbored the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right conditions. Any animal or plant that was in a tank that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        contained any of the environment in a chain of events to the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeding place could contain the worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Joe P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have a snail hatchery tank that I crumble fish flakes for and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > produce an extreme amount of waste so siphoning out the waste is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > frequent thing. I have found out where my worms are coming from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > They've only showed up in my turtle tank and snail tank and its only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > after I place veggies in the tank for snacking on. Never fails and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > have worms.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Will the snails eat the worms or are they dangerous to my snails? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > have Apple snails and they're all very small still only hatched a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ago so they're still growing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Help Please!!!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ashley
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7068 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Where would they hide in my snail tank? There is absolutely nothing on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the floor of the tank so I could watch the hatchlings carefully. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they hibernate or store eggs in a dried out state and reappear when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water is added possibly?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the snails won't eat the worms, and teh worms are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > coming from vegetables. they are not going to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out to eat flake, but may like the veggies you put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and come out to eat them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7069 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do believe that the turtles could have had parasites though. Their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank is the 55 and has feeder guppies in it and they multiply often so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the fry/worm thing is true. They only show up in that tank at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel level. They must love the extra turtle pellets that sink and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hide in the gravel. I'll try to feed the turtles seperately for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while and see how that goes and maybe the worms will start to die off.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7070 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I really wouldn't worry about them.  I personally doubt there is a fish tank in the world older than a year that doesn't have a few of them.  They are no danger to anything in the tank or you.  The only problem is that they don't look that great.  Since you don't have gravel, just use a gravel vacuum and suck them out of the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------There is no gravel in my snail tank and there weren't worms in it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        before. I had to look extremely closely to see the snails when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first hatched so I would have seen the worms then too. My turtle tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has had no new plants and has no snails in it. The only new addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was the green beans. The snail hatchlings were from a very clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeder who had no worm problems so they didn't come from the snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is there anything you can do to get rid of them without a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank change? I will do that when the snails are big enough to remove
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and even clean but right now they're just too small.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7071 From: robdar4609 Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Plants to grow on Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Looking for plants I can grow on a large driftwood in my 30-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank...I heard Java moss may work? Any suggestions and if I can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any plants like this online?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7072 From: Elyse Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Plants to grow on Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, Java fern can/will attach itself to wood. To get it started u can use
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a rubber band.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know they carry it at most PetSmarts.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AIM: ElyseRachel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Canine Castaway's Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.CanineCastaways.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.CanineCastaways.petfinder.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: robdar4609 [mailto:robdar4609@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 5:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Plants to grow on Driftwood



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Looking for plants I can grow on a large driftwood in my 30-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank...I heard Java moss may work? Any suggestions and if I can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any plants like this online?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7073 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           How long have you had the snail-tank?  Were the 'Apple-snails' ever in a tank with other fish/snails? Are you absolutely positive your snail-source never even had 'one little worm'?  I'll post a picture in the 'photos' section of the website under 'Trematoda' that may help perceive that the worm can be carried through stages and not be evident 'till they hatch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Where would they hide in my snail tank? There is absolutely nothing on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the floor of the tank so I could watch the hatchlings carefully. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they hibernate or store eggs in a dried out state and reappear when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water is added possibly?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ashley
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the snails won't eat the worms, and teh worms are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > coming from vegetables. they are not going to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out to eat flake, but may like the veggies you put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and come out to eat them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7074 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yeah, I just vacuumed it today and got the majority of the waste up. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have to be careful since some of the baby snails will retract into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their shells and they're light enough to be sucked up meaning I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to go back through my siphoned water to fish them back out and put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them in the tank again. Quite a task, but they're getting bigger daily
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and that makes it easier.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I really wouldn't worry about them. I personally doubt there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank in the world older than a year that doesn't have a few of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are no danger to anything in the tank or you. The only problem is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't look that great. Since you don't have gravel, just use a gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > vacuum and suck them out of the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7075 From: Ashley Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My large snail was in my aquarium with fish before but I've never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any worms in those aquariums. The snail tank is only like 3 weeks old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I set it up to hatch the baby snails and did use some betta tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to keep it from being completely new. The betta tank was worm free
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        too. Who knows. I guess if they aren't harmful then I won't worry too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much. I'll do a complete change when the snails are big enough to move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        without missing some accidently.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ashley





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > How long have you had the snail-tank? Were the 'Apple-snails'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ever in a tank with other fish/snails? Are you absolutely positive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your snail-source never even had 'one little worm'? I'll post a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        picture in the 'photos' section of the website under 'Trematoda' that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        may help perceive that the worm can be carried through stages and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be evident 'till they hatch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7076 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Digest Number 511 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 11/27/04 6:37:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Hornwort is a floating plant.  The rumors of its ability to grow tied
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        down are greatly exaggerated.  


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Speaking of which - I was surprised in Petsmart yesterday when I saw the old strips of lead that are used to weigh plants down.  I was sure the tree huggers along with the EPA would have outlawed them a long time ago.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7077 From: j.pascavage@comcast.net Date: 11/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: White Worms & Snails?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           I had problems with at least two kinds of white, small worms. If I remember correctly, they occurred when plants that evidently did not contain anything but stalks and leaves were used. Eventually, I tried placing a few of the little brown/black pond snails that ensued after plants were added to the tank, into a 1/2 gallon tank and see what happens. Well, the snails and the worms multiplied greatly. I read through the books I had on aquaria, and found reference to pond-snails as being a problem when their origin was outdoor-plant-farms, and the bigger problem in that reference was the pond-snails harbored a stage in the developement of a worm/parasite. There was a theoretical discussion in the book-segment as to whether or not it was possible to actually eliminate the parasite through use of hydroponics, etc., and one conclusion was that since the parasite or worm traveled with the snail in such a way that introducing them into hydroponics would be equivalent to introducing the worm or parasite into the hydroponics. ( a stage of the worm/parasite travelled in the snail-propogation process into the next generation)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Aside from having an overabundance of snails and worms (the snails dissappeared during the unintentional raising of my PH, and the worms appeared and dissappeared occasionally, as was observed by others), the biggest shock I had was when I observed a worm with a pointed posterior bracing itself with that point and trying to pry under the scale of a female Betta with its anterior (or visa-versa). The thing could have been little more that a millimeter long if that, 'tho that happened a few years ago. It would be good practice to observe VERY  (squint-with nose-on-the-glass, or in the water) closely, to increase awareness of creatures in the environment.(better yet, also use an appropriate magnifier)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Another thing. Overfeeding and insufficient cleaning can enhance worm multiplication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------- Original message --------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My large snail was in my aquarium with fish before but I've never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any worms in those aquariums. The snail tank is only like 3 weeks old.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I set it up to hatch the baby snails and did use some betta tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to keep it from being completely new. The betta tank was worm free
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > too. Who knows. I guess if they aren't harmful then I won't worry too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much. I'll do a complete change when the snails are big enough to move
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > without missing some accidently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ashley
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > j.pascavage@c... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > How long have you had the snail-tank? Were the 'Apple-snails'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ever in a tank with other fish/snails? Are you absolutely positive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your snail-source never even had 'one little worm'? I'll post a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > picture in the 'photos' section of the website under 'Trematoda' that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > may help perceive that the worm can be carried through stages and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be evident 'till they hatch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > JoeP
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7078 From: paul helms Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 511 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they are made of lead free pewter now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 11/27/04 6:37:34 PM Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hornwort is a floating plant. The rumors of its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ability to grow tied
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > down are greatly exaggerated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Speaking of which - I was surprised in Petsmart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > yesterday when I saw the old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > strips of lead that are used to weigh plants down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was sure the tree
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > huggers along with the EPA would have outlawed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a long time ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7079 From: tedrups Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        18gallons). It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something more habitable for the fish. 3 days now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have an air pump. Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this small tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to need it and just generally to talk fish!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7080 From: secretlaw Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You defintely need the air pump going for 24 hours a day, 7 days a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        week.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wouldn't keep too many fish in a small tank. I would put around 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pairs of the fish total.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, you didn't mention anything about filter that you are using. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hope you have at least one filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good luck

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "tedrups"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dennyzak@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 18gallons). It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something more habitable for the fish. 3 days now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have an air pump. Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this small tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to need it and just generally to talk fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7081 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        18gallons).  It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to something more habitable for the fish.  3 days now."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -   Now you should start learning how to do a fishless cycle.  Do a google search for "fishless cycle aquarium".  Also click the link under my name at the bottom.  Don't add a fish for at least 5 weeks.  Use that time to study, at the library, with real books on paper.  It will save the lives of fish and your money, lots of money!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "I have an air pump.  Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -   Airpumps are for decoration only.  Save electricity and only run it when you are around to look at it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this small tank?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -   I would say 10 neons, 4 female guppies, and 2 male guppies.  But remember to start slow, just the female guppies at first, wait a few weeks and add the males.  Then wait a few weeks and add 5 neons, a few more and add the other neons.  These are both weak and sensitive fish.  In place of neons I suggest glolight tetras (not glofish, that is a different fish completely).  Glolights are much stronger than neons.  There is no substitute for guppies that is not as weak.  If you go with neons and guppies, expect high death rates, up to 100% after 2 months.  Make sure you buy from a store with at least a 2 week return time on dead fish or you will be wasting money.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to need it and just generally to talk fish!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I didn't really need to quote this one, but oh well. :)  Just remember that when you ask a question, every answer will be different, and several of them will be right (sometimes all will be right)!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7082 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Plants to grow on Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think the java moss will grow, but will need tied down like java fern.  Fishing string can be used to tie it down.  I don't know if it makes roots, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Looking for plants I can grow on a large driftwood in my 30-gallon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank...I heard Java moss may work?  Any suggestions and if I can get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any plants like this online?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7083 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "You defintely need the air pump going for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -   Only if the filter is powered by an air pump.  Other than that, they do nothing but look pretty.  They don't add O2 to the water, if that is what you think.  They are mostly just a waste of electric power and money unless they are used for decoration.  Used for decoration they are very useful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "I wouldn't keep too many fish in a small tank. I would put around 5 pairs of the fish total."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -   Why keep fish in pairs?  Tetras and livebearers do best in groups of 3 or more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Also, you didn't mention anything about filter that you are using. I hope you have at least one filter."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -   I would also like to hear what kind of filter is being used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7084 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Digest Number 512 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 11/28/04 6:26:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they are made of lead free pewter now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was wondering about that because the label did say "lead".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7085 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 512 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some still are lead, but because it's not the type of thing children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eat and not every state has banned it, there's not a huge problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 28, 2004, at 7:07 PM, DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 11/28/04 6:26:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they are made of lead free pewter now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was wondering about that because the label did say "lead".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7086 From: paul helms Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Digest Number 512 - PLANTS TIED DOWN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good point...dunno what state the poster was form. in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ca they are banned, and they are even trying to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all fishing weights brass now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some still are lead, but because it's not the type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of thing children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eat and not every state has banned it, there's not a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > huge problem with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 28, 2004, at 7:07 PM, DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > In a message dated 11/28/04 6:26:45 PM Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they are made of lead free pewter now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I was wondering about that because the label did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > say "lead".
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7087 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes I would keep it going 24/7 because it will help to circulate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water which will bring the carbon dioxide up to the surgface and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        allow the oxygen to be absorbed into the water. There are filters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that are air driven so that is another reawsson to keep it going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        23/7. With gppies you will undoubtely wind up with lots of baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies which will need water volume themself. I would not put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more than two trios of guppies and and maybe three or four small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras. Make sure that the tank if cycled before you put the tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in. If you have a compact florescent light bulb then you may wish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        think about growing live plants which will 'help' to filter the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water for you. Also the plants will give the fish a place to hide
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and feel more secure and therefor less stressed. The more that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stress a fish the more you lower the risistance to diseases. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even if you have the best filter going there is nothing that take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the place of water changes.






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "tedrups"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <dennyzak@o...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 18gallons). It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something more habitable for the fish. 3 days now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have an air pump. Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this small tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to need it and just generally to talk fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7088 From: P & D Denny Date: 11/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to Fishkeeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm sorry, I didn't mention the filter as my question was specific to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        belief that the air pump was redundant or fancy. The filter is a Fluval2+
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which I believe is adequate for the tank size although perhaps I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        upgrade to Fluval4. I have plants but no real plants as they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        exceptionally difficult to maintain as this island's water is extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Naturally I am running the tank empty prior to the arrival of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        During that time I'll study fish species as perhaps my initial thoughts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neons and guppies are not so good and will go for the hardier species.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for all your comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7089 From: paul helms Date: 11/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to Fishkeeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish don't get much hardrier than guppies...they live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in and breed in just about anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- P & D Denny <dennyzak@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm sorry, I didn't mention the filter as my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > question was specific to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > belief that the air pump was redundant or fancy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The filter is a Fluval2+
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which I believe is adequate for the tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > although perhaps I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > upgrade to Fluval4. I have plants but no real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants as they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exceptionally difficult to maintain as this island's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water is extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Naturally I am running the tank empty prior to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > arrival of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > During that time I'll study fish species as perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my initial thoughts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neons and guppies are not so good and will go for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the hardier species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks for all your comments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7090 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 11/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to Fishkeeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wouldn't be surprised if one kept a male and female guppy outside the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water on the table and the male would even in that situation try to mate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 29 November 2004 08:33
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: New to Fishkeeping


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish don't get much hardrier than guppies...they live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in and breed in just about anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- P & D Denny <dennyzak@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm sorry, I didn't mention the filter as my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > question was specific to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > belief that the air pump was redundant or fancy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The filter is a Fluval2+
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which I believe is adequate for the tank size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > although perhaps I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > upgrade to Fluval4. I have plants but no real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants as they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exceptionally difficult to maintain as this island's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water is extremely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Naturally I am running the tank empty prior to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > arrival of the fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > During that time I'll study fish species as perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my initial thoughts on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neons and guppies are not so good and will go for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the hardier species.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks for all your comments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7091 From: Audrey Archer Date: 11/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Plants to grow on driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:30:57 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Subject: Re: Plants to grow on Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >I think the java moss will grow, but will need tied down like java fern.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Fishing string can be used to tie it down. I don't know if it makes roots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have Java Moss on my Malaysian driftwood, but rather than tie it down, I just sort of stuffed the pieces into the deep crevases of the wood. I figured that it wouldn't be attached to anything with thread or fishing line out in the wild, so it should be okay to do that; I didn't want to have to remove the thread later. And it is doing well. Java moss grows slowly, tho.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7092 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 11/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 12/3/2004, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Friday December 3, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.sfaquarium.org/about.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We meet the first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Founded in 1923, the San Francisco Aquarium Society is regarded as one of the nation's esteemed aquarium hobbyist organizations.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7093 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 11/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Plants to grow on driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are a few plants that grow in hard water such as the Jungle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vals. You might want to check with people that have African
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cichlids, as most people that have African cichlids use hard water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fishes.





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey Archer <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Message: 9
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:30:57 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Subject: Re: Plants to grow on Driftwood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >I think the java moss will grow, but will need tied down like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java fern.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Fishing string can be used to tie it down. I don't know if it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        makes roots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have Java Moss on my Malaysian driftwood, but rather than tie it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        down, I just sort of stuffed the pieces into the deep crevases of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the wood. I figured that it wouldn't be attached to anything with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thread or fishing line out in the wild, so it should be okay to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that; I didn't want to have to remove the thread later. And it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        doing well. Java moss grows slowly, tho.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7094 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thought you had to have an airpump to run an airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 18gallons). It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > habitable for the fish. 3 days now."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > - Now you should start learning how to do a fishless cycle. Do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        google
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > search for "fishless cycle aquarium". Also click the link under my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        name at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the bottom. Don't add a fish for at least 5 weeks. Use that time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to study,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at the library, with real books on paper. It will save the lives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and your money, lots of money!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "I have an air pump. Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > - Airpumps are for decoration only. Save electricity and only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        run it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you are around to look at it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this small tank?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > - I would say 10 neons, 4 female guppies, and 2 male guppies. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remember to start slow, just the female guppies at first, wait a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        few weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and add the males. Then wait a few weeks and add 5 neons, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add the other neons. These are both weak and sensitive fish. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        place of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neons I suggest glolight tetras (not glofish, that is a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > completely). Glolights are much stronger than neons. There is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > substitute for guppies that is not as weak. If you go with neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies, expect high death rates, up to 100% after 2 months. Make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > buy from a store with at least a 2 week return time on dead fish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be wasting money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to need it and just generally to talk fish!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I didn't really need to quote this one, but oh well. :) Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remember
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that when you ask a question, every answer will be different, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        several of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them will be right (sometimes all will be right)!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7095 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: new tank question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What is the best way to clean a new tank for setup?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7096 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thought you had to have an airpump to run an airstone. Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I thought you had to have an airstone for oxygen into the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 18gallons). It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > habitable for the fish. 3 days now."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > - Now you should start learning how to do a fishless cycle. Do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > google
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > search for "fishless cycle aquarium". Also click the link under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the bottom. Don't add a fish for at least 5 weeks. Use that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to study,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at the library, with real books on paper. It will save the lives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and your money, lots of money!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "I have an air pump. Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > - Airpumps are for decoration only. Save electricity and only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > run it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > you are around to look at it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this small tank?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > - I would say 10 neons, 4 female guppies, and 2 male guppies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > remember to start slow, just the female guppies at first, wait a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and add the males. Then wait a few weeks and add 5 neons, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > add the other neons. These are both weak and sensitive fish. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > place of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > neons I suggest glolight tetras (not glofish, that is a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > completely). Glolights are much stronger than neons. There is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > substitute for guppies that is not as weak. If you go with neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guppies, expect high death rates, up to 100% after 2 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > buy from a store with at least a 2 week return time on dead fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > be wasting money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to need it and just generally to talk fish!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I didn't really need to quote this one, but oh well. :) Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remember
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that when you ask a question, every answer will be different, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > several of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them will be right (sometimes all will be right)!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7097 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: new tank question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Vinegar on a rag, wipe it down, wash it with cool water, then it is ready.  For equipment and decorations (gravel, etc), rinse with warm water. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What is the best way to clean a new tank for setup?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7098 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, air pumps power air stones.  Air stones have two purposes, running a filter (under gravel filter, some box filters, and sponge filters), or decoration.  Despite the common myth, in a filtered tank they don't increase oxygen levels.  They do nothing at all in a filtered tank.  If the tank isn't filtered, then they can increase oxygen levels on their own by making water movement, but in a filtered tank the filter itself provides enough water movement.  So unless you are using an air-powered filter, the air stone is only for decoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Of course the myth continues anyway.  Not long ago I would argue for days about how air stones must increase O2 levels in the tank.  Then a chemist convinced me I was wrong.  That's right, I was wrong.  Did I say that? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thought you had to have an airpump to run an airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7099 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you do, but airstones, unless you have a small UGF are for decoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 30, 2004, at 6:46 PM, wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thought you had to have an airpump to run an airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I think that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 18gallons).  It's sitting awaiting the water to settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > habitable for the fish.  3 days now."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -   Now you should start learning how to do a fishless cycle.  Do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > google
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > search for "fishless cycle aquarium".  Also click the link under my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the bottom.  Don't add a fish for at least 5 weeks.  Use that time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to study,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at the library, with real books on paper.  It will save the lives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and your money, lots of money!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "I have an air pump.  Do I need to run it for 24 hours a day?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -   Airpumps are for decoration only.  Save electricity and only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > run it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > you are around to look at it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this small tank?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -   I would say 10 neons, 4 female guppies, and 2 male guppies.  But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > remember to start slow, just the female guppies at first, wait a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and add the males.  Then wait a few weeks and add 5 neons, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > add the other neons.  These are both weak and sensitive fish.  In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > place of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > neons I suggest glolight tetras (not glofish, that is a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > completely).  Glolights are much stronger than neons.  There is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > substitute for guppies that is not as weak.  If you go with neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guppies, expect high death rates, up to 100% after 2 months.  Make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > buy from a store with at least a 2 week return time on dead fish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > be wasting money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "This looks such a great group for help and advice, I'm sure I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to need it and just generally to talk fish!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >     I didn't really need to quote this one, but oh well. :)  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remember
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that when you ask a question, every answer will be different, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > several of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them will be right (sometimes all will be right)!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7100 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't forget that not all filters break the surface of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the water, such as cannister filters, in which case an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        air pump is needed, unless you like listening to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water splash back in. many people have the return
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        submerged, and no oxygen is entering the system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yes, air pumps power air stones. Air stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have two purposes, running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a filter (under gravel filter, some box filters, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filters), or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decoration. Despite the common myth, in a filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank they don't increase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > oxygen levels. They do nothing at all in a filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. If the tank isn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > t filtered, then they can increase oxygen levels on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their own by making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement, but in a filtered tank the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > itself provides enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement. So unless you are using an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > air-powered filter, the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stone is only for decoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Of course the myth continues anyway. Not long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ago I would argue for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > days about how air stones must increase O2 levels in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank. Then a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemist convinced me I was wrong. That's right, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was wrong. Did I say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thought you had to have an airpump to run an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7101 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any pump that breaks the surface of the water will add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as much if not more oxygen than an air pump. the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        going into the tank is pulled into the tank through
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the air pump, along with everything else in the air,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it never hurts to run an air pump, especially in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        planted tank at night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thought you had to have an airpump to run an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "After much research I now have a 70litre tank (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think that's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 18gallons). It's sitting awaiting the water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > settle in to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > habitable for the fish. 3 days now."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > - Now you should start learning how to do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fishless cycle. Do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > google
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > search for "fishless cycle aquarium". Also click
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the link under my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the bottom. Don't add a fish for at least 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weeks. Use that time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to study,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > at the library, with real books on paper. It will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > save the lives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and your money, lots of money!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "I have an air pump. Do I need to run it for 24
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hours a day?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > - Airpumps are for decoration only. Save
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > electricity and only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > run it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > you are around to look at it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "If I was to keep guppies and neons, how many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would be too many for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this small tank?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > - I would say 10 neons, 4 female guppies, and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > male guppies. But
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > remember to start slow, just the female guppies at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > first, wait a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and add the males. Then wait a few weeks and add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 5 neons, a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > add the other neons. These are both weak and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sensitive fish. In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > place of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > neons I suggest glolight tetras (not glofish, that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > completely). Glolights are much stronger than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neons. There is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > substitute for guppies that is not as weak. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you go with neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guppies, expect high death rates, up to 100% after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 months. Make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > buy from a store with at least a 2 week return
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > time on dead fish or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > be wasting money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "This looks such a great group for help and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > advice, I'm sure I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to need it and just generally to talk fish!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I didn't really need to quote this one, but oh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well. :) Just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remember
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that when you ask a question, every answer will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > different, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > several of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them will be right (sometimes all will be right)!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7102 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but most people using canister filters have a large enough tank where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the surface exchange is enough for the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 30, 2004, at 8:20 PM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't forget that not all filters break the surface of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the water, such as cannister filters, in which case an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > air pump is needed, unless you like listening to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water splash back in. many people have the return
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > submerged, and no oxygen is entering the system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Yes, air pumps power air stones. Air stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> have two purposes, running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> a filter (under gravel filter, some box filters, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> sponge filters), or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> decoration. Despite the common myth, in a filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> tank they don't increase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> oxygen levels. They do nothing at all in a filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> tank. If the tank isn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> t filtered, then they can increase oxygen levels on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> their own by making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> water movement, but in a filtered tank the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> itself provides enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> water movement. So unless you are using an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> air-powered filter, the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> stone is only for decoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Of course the myth continues anyway. Not long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> ago I would argue for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> days about how air stones must increase O2 levels in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> the tank. Then a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> chemist convinced me I was wrong. That's right, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> was wrong. Did I say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> that? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> I don't understand the comment that airpumps are for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> thought you had to have an airpump to run an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7103 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i disagree when there are cannisters out there for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        less than 20 gallon tanks, and while i do agree that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an airpump is not as effective as a back filter in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        introducing oxygen, it does add quite a bit. for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those who doubt it, 2 goldfish bowls, 2 goldfish and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        airpump is plenty to do the experiment. see how long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each lives all things beiong equal except for the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pump on one. this would mean that the same water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        source, exact chemicals, location, etc would have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be the same, and the 2 feeders would have to come form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the same establised tank as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but most people using canister filters have a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enough tank where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the surface exchange is enough for the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 30, 2004, at 8:20 PM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > don't forget that not all filters break the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > surface of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the water, such as cannister filters, in which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > case an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > air pump is needed, unless you like listening to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water splash back in. many people have the return
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > submerged, and no oxygen is entering the system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Yes, air pumps power air stones. Air stones
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> have two purposes, running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> a filter (under gravel filter, some box filters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> sponge filters), or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> decoration. Despite the common myth, in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> tank they don't increase
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> oxygen levels. They do nothing at all in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> tank. If the tank isn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> t filtered, then they can increase oxygen levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> their own by making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> water movement, but in a filtered tank the filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> itself provides enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> water movement. So unless you are using an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> air-powered filter, the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> stone is only for decoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Of course the myth continues anyway. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> ago I would argue for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> days about how air stones must increase O2 levels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> the tank. Then a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> chemist convinced me I was wrong. That's right,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> was wrong. Did I say
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> that? :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> I don't understand the comment that airpumps are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> decoration. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> thought you had to have an airpump to run an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> airstone. Please explain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7104 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Breaking the surface is not as important as water movement.  A cannister filter most likely provides plenty of water movement at all levels and areas to circulate the water from bottom to top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm guessing your experiment was not approved by peta. :)  But who listens to them! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i disagree when there are cannisters out there for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        less than 20 gallon tanks, and while i do agree that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an airpump is not as effective as a back filter in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        introducing oxygen, it does add quite a bit.  for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those who doubt it, 2 goldfish bowls, 2 goldfish and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        airpump is plenty to do the experiment.  see how long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each lives all things beiong equal except for the air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pump on one.  this would mean that the same water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        source, exact chemicals, location, etc would have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be the same, and the 2 feeders would have to come form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the same establised tank as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7105 From: amalthea23 Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people who like explosions? lol..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but yes, you're right, most do provide quite a bit of movement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better ones come with sprayer bars which also negates the need for air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pumps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Nov 30, 2004, at 9:39 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     Breaking the surface is not as important as water movement.  A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cannister filter most likely provides plenty of water movement at all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > levels and areas to circulate the water from bottom to top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     I'm guessing your experiment was not approved by peta. :)  But who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > listens to them! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7106 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        screw peta.....lmao
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i am a member of P>E>T>A though!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (people for the eating of tasty animals)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        j/k
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Breaking the surface is not as important as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement. A cannister
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter most likely provides plenty of water movement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at all levels and areas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to circulate the water from bottom to top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm guessing your experiment was not approved by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peta. :) But who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > listens to them! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i disagree when there are cannisters out there for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > less than 20 gallon tanks, and while i do agree that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > an airpump is not as effective as a back filter in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > introducing oxygen, it does add quite a bit. for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those who doubt it, 2 goldfish bowls, 2 goldfish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > airpump is plenty to do the experiment. see how
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each lives all things beiong equal except for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pump on one. this would mean that the same water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > source, exact chemicals, location, etc would have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be the same, and the 2 feeders would have to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > form
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the same establised tank as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7107 From: paul helms Date: 11/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i am not saying at all that they are not great...in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fact i use and recomend them....just saying not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        scare beginners away from air pumps, because they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be life savers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > people who like explosions? lol..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but yes, you're right, most do provide quite a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of movement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > better ones come with sprayer bars which also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > negates the need for air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pumps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 30, 2004, at 9:39 PM, Patrick, The American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ��� Breaking the surface is not as important as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement.� A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cannister filter most likely provides plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement at all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > levels and areas to circulate the water from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bottom to top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ��� I'm guessing your experiment was not approved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by peta. :)� But who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > listens to them! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > �
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > �
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:��
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7108 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New to fish keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree with this. Airpumps are better then no airpumps/filter/powerhead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Considering the fact that many stores still sell a coldwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kit/tropical kit with no filter with it, airstones can be a life saver in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        these cases. Ofcourse if you have a system with a HOB or a canister with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spray bar or any powerhead creating a good surface movement, airpumps will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be useless. I have also noticed that breaking the surface does help a lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It does not help in adding more oxygen to the water but helps in dissipating
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the excess CO2 stored in it. Very frankly, my 100g tank with a heavy fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        load and 3 spraybars 1" below the surface is not enough. I have to get 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spray bar to break the surface to stop the fish from gasping. When I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plenty of fast growing plants and added CO2, I never needed to break the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surface but now most plants are crypts and bottom slow growers, so I do need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 01 December 2004 06:51
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] New to fish keeping


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i am not saying at all that they are not great...in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fact i use and recomend them....just saying not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        scare beginners away from air pumps, because they can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be life savers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > people who like explosions? lol..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but yes, you're right, most do provide quite a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of movement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > better ones come with sprayer bars which also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > negates the need for air
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pumps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Nov 30, 2004, at 9:39 PM, Patrick, The American
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Fish Guy wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Breaking the surface is not as important as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement. A
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cannister filter most likely provides plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water movement at all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > levels and areas to circulate the water from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bottom to top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I'm guessing your experiment was not approved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by peta. :) But who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > listens to them! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7109 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 12/1/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 12/4/2004, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Saturday December 4, 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7110 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, my daughters finally pestered until we got them both a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        puffer fish. I know they have a reputation for being nippy, but we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        figured one fish couldn't do too much damage per tank, so we got two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dwarf puffers and put them in. Angel immediately decided that Puff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tuff was just the right size for a snack and tried to eat him, upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which Puff Tuff turned right around in his mouth and bit him on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lip (earning his name) and zipped away. As we speak, the two are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still at a standoff.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Poofta, in the other tank, terrorized the whole tank for a while,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chased the poor gourami around (looked like a chihuahua nipping at an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        elephant), and then tangled with Tanzanite, our Male Betta. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have apparantly developed a grudging respect for each other, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tanzanite is the only one without a nipped tail this morning, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Poofta seems to have settled down. He earned his name by apparantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disappearing, and then POOF, he's visible again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        While I was sick (flu, then pneumonia, then bronchitis), my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pest snail population exploded and killed all the plants in one tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and started to mess with the plants in the other, so we bought some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more and re-landscaped the tanks. The fish seem to enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        investigating the new stuff. Today we are going to trade in the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        huge plecos (just too darn big for the tanks, and they keep knocking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the plants loose) for some more moderately sized fish and maybe a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        golden snail or two if I can convince my daughters there won't be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem with them...do they eat the algae that forms on the side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tanks, or do they eat the plants? And can they help to keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pest snails under control, or will they breed with them...anybody
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know? Apparantly we have quite a bit of calcium in our tank, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        squishing the pest snails was hard...even sliced my finger good on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple of the shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7111 From: paul helms Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 little tiny puffer can empty your entire tank. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other fish are unale to fight them off very well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because the puffers have a toxin in theri skin that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the other fish won't be able to handle, causing them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tonot fight back aftera while and slowly be picked at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        until they are over stressed and die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, my daughters finally pestered until we got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them both a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > puffer fish. I know they have a reputation for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > being nippy, but we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figured one fish couldn't do too much damage per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank, so we got two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dwarf puffers and put them in. Angel immediately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decided that Puff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tuff was just the right size for a snack and tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to eat him, upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which Puff Tuff turned right around in his mouth and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bit him on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lip (earning his name) and zipped away. As we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > speak, the two are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still at a standoff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta, in the other tank, terrorized the whole tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for a while,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chased the poor gourami around (looked like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chihuahua nipping at an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > elephant), and then tangled with Tanzanite, our Male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Betta. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have apparantly developed a grudging respect for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each other, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tanzanite is the only one without a nipped tail this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > morning, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta seems to have settled down. He earned his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name by apparantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > disappearing, and then POOF, he's visible again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > While I was sick (flu, then pneumonia, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bronchitis), my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pest snail population exploded and killed all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants in one tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and started to mess with the plants in the other, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > we bought some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more and re-landscaped the tanks. The fish seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > investigating the new stuff. Today we are going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > trade in the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > huge plecos (just too darn big for the tanks, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they keep knocking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the plants loose) for some more moderately sized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish and maybe a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > golden snail or two if I can convince my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there won't be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem with them...do they eat the algae that forms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tanks, or do they eat the plants? And can they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > help to keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pest snails under control, or will they breed with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them...anybody
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know? Apparantly we have quite a bit of calcium in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > our tank, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > squishing the pest snails was hard...even sliced my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > finger good on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of the shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7112 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Puffs aren't good candidates for community tanks. Most people find they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't bother otos; I've also had luck keeping them with bumblbee gobies. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can take a look at this link for more info:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://puffernet.tripod.com/partners.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Personally I don't think small snails do a great job with algae; I'd get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        either a few otos or a small species of plec, depending on what space you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have available. I also don't think they'll do anything in regards to getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rid of the pest snails. Puffers and loaches are the best fish for that job.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "cynthia brennemann" <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, my daughters finally pestered until we got them both a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > puffer fish. I know they have a reputation for being nippy, but we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figured one fish couldn't do too much damage per tank, so we got two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dwarf puffers and put them in. Angel immediately decided that Puff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tuff was just the right size for a snack and tried to eat him, upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which Puff Tuff turned right around in his mouth and bit him on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lip (earning his name) and zipped away. As we speak, the two are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still at a standoff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta, in the other tank, terrorized the whole tank for a while,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chased the poor gourami around (looked like a chihuahua nipping at an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > elephant), and then tangled with Tanzanite, our Male Betta. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have apparantly developed a grudging respect for each other, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tanzanite is the only one without a nipped tail this morning, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta seems to have settled down. He earned his name by apparantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > disappearing, and then POOF, he's visible again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > While I was sick (flu, then pneumonia, then bronchitis), my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pest snail population exploded and killed all the plants in one tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and started to mess with the plants in the other, so we bought some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more and re-landscaped the tanks. The fish seem to enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > investigating the new stuff. Today we are going to trade in the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > huge plecos (just too darn big for the tanks, and they keep knocking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the plants loose) for some more moderately sized fish and maybe a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > golden snail or two if I can convince my daughters there won't be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem with them...do they eat the algae that forms on the side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tanks, or do they eat the plants? And can they help to keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pest snails under control, or will they breed with them...anybody
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know? Apparantly we have quite a bit of calcium in our tank, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > squishing the pest snails was hard...even sliced my finger good on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of the shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7113 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cynthia,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is a dangerous situation to have puffers with any other community fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It may seem to have been stable for the moment but it can go wrong any time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As you have seen that a tiny puffer is capable of harassing a large gourami
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and with their fin nipping and aggressive capabilities, it is very unlikely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that your betta or gouramis or others will be able to sustain the stress for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a prolonged period. If your daughters are so interested in puffers, then I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        suggest getting a species tank for just dwarf puffers or converting one of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank to a puffer villa. Other then this, it will be a hopeless battle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the other fish against the powerful calcium based beaks of the puffers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and the protective secretion the puffers release for their protection.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: cynthia brennemann [mailto:brennewoman@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 03 December 2004 14:25
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        developments



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, my daughters finally pestered until we got them both a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        puffer fish. I know they have a reputation for being nippy, but we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        figured one fish couldn't do too much damage per tank, so we got two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dwarf puffers and put them in. Angel immediately decided that Puff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tuff was just the right size for a snack and tried to eat him, upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which Puff Tuff turned right around in his mouth and bit him on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lip (earning his name) and zipped away. As we speak, the two are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        still at a standoff.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Poofta, in the other tank, terrorized the whole tank for a while,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chased the poor gourami around (looked like a chihuahua nipping at an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        elephant), and then tangled with Tanzanite, our Male Betta. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have apparantly developed a grudging respect for each other, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tanzanite is the only one without a nipped tail this morning, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Poofta seems to have settled down. He earned his name by apparantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disappearing, and then POOF, he's visible again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        While I was sick (flu, then pneumonia, then bronchitis), my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pest snail population exploded and killed all the plants in one tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and started to mess with the plants in the other, so we bought some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more and re-landscaped the tanks. The fish seem to enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        investigating the new stuff. Today we are going to trade in the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        huge plecos (just too darn big for the tanks, and they keep knocking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the plants loose) for some more moderately sized fish and maybe a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        golden snail or two if I can convince my daughters there won't be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem with them...do they eat the algae that forms on the side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tanks, or do they eat the plants? And can they help to keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pest snails under control, or will they breed with them...anybody
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know? Apparantly we have quite a bit of calcium in our tank, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        squishing the pest snails was hard...even sliced my finger good on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        couple of the shells.








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7114 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We'll keep an eye on it. I figure if the girls start noticing their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish being picked on by the puffers, they won't mind me trading them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in at the fish store. Mostly they wanted the puffers because 1. they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were cute, and 2. They eat snails! It's a learning experience for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them. They were told they are not good community fish, but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        insisted, so better to get it out of their system while I can help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them keep an eye on the tanks. Niether of my girls seem to like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loaches, though I keep telling them they'll eat the snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meanwhile, I keep squishing them for the fish. Sigh. The Fish store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        we finally found in town is really good about trading back fish if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they prove not to be what you want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7115 From: Faithe Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Paul Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Between catching snails, white wiggly worms, and God knows what else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am so paranoid to buy anything anywhere, I did however do you as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you suggested Paul and bought a white ugly albino frog. The kid in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the shop said it was an African Frog, I am thinking now its not,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        huh?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyhow, I hope he can help get rid of those nasty worms. As I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really up to a complete washdown of the tank. And of course I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vacuuming the gravel, and changing the water, seems like when I add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a fish, I end up with a problem, that tank was brand spanking new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only 2 months old and then I put a preggy Molly in there, who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        developed pop eye, had 2 babies, and then I found worms (probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because I overfed the fish (im italian what can i say) anyhow, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hope this ugly looking frog does the trick.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks so much for the suggestion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > african frogs will munch on them just like blood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worms. i have only had 1 white worm inmy tank, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > came in the bag with a fish. i stirred up the rock to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > make it float and my angels ate it right away. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frogs should scavange fro them and are only 2-3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dollars each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I am so disappointed and frustrated. So much for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > thinking they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > all gone, I went to do a water change and they all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > started doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > their nasty dance again. I dont get it, this tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is brand spanking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > new only 2 months old I added some plants from Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Molly from Petco and shortly after the babies were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > born my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > noticed those gross worms, I know its from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > overfeeding, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > treated with some green tablet, with frequent water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > changes with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some ich medicine and even addad a zebra tetra or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > whatever you call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it and they wont leave, at this point I am willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to add anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Can anyone PLEASE suggest something that will work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I am not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > healthiest so I dont have a huge reserve of strength
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to break down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tank and scrub it, not to mention what would I do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > while doing that? there is absolutely NO way I will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > add them to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > other tank (you know that beautiful tank with snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and angels? uggh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > A very frustrated fishkeeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Faithe :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7116 From: Faithe Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Ray Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks so much Ray for the suggestions, I appreciate it, I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        added an albino frog do you think it would be safe to add the salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with him? And yes, I have been vacumming and changing the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the only thing I have not done is add more salt, which I will. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        check out a cory or two, they are not too infested now, because I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not finding dead ones on top of the tank, and you can only see them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now when you stir up the gravel. I think I will pass on those heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        duty chemicals, I did pick up some melafix, just to keep in my aqua
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        medicine cabinet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe, Since you know that the "white squiggly worms" (Planaria)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        come from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > overfeeding, as you've already said, that's the point at which to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        control
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them. And since you have been overfeeding, its a good bet that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there's excess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food down in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > First, do a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thorough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel vacuuming to get as much as that uneaten food out of there,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and continue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with water changes. When you do feed, feed only enough that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up in 10 minutes. Net out any food that's left over after that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Add one tbsp of aquarium salt (or non-iodized canning/Kosher salt)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for every 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallons, and replace (only) the lost salt when you do water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes. That
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should help control them. Add another cory catfish or two to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clean up and another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > zebra or two to eat them. Molly babies usually eat those worms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > There are medications
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to get rid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of them as well, but you really shouldn't need to go that drastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use proper maintenence and more controlled feeding. But to let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you know what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they are, you can use such things as Clout, Quick-Cure and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Potassium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Permanganate. All of these can be a little risky, with the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one the milder of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        methods.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The first two will also kill snails and can kill
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        scaleless fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > such as Botias. Best to use at half recommended dosage,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        especially if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have Tetras. Clout will permanently stain the sealer in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        corners of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank though, as will Potassium permanganate. This last one has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also been used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for Ich; it turns the water a cranberry color (pink-purple) and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an oxodizer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You need to increase the aeration when using it. After the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        day, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water will start to turn brown, but it will take a number of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        changes to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remove all the discoloration. Several ounces of thoroughly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disolved Hydrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peroxide will neutralize it, but water changes is the best way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        go. So as you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > see, there are other ways of controlling these Flatworms if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The easiest, safest and most convenient way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        control them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > however, is by going back to the original suggestion; clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottom, use less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food, add salt and consider adding Cory's and/or Zebras if there's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        room.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Zebras like to be in a group anyhow as do Cory's. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7117 From: Larry Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have a 29 gallon tank. i have 4 gouramis, 2 bettas,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 dwarf puffers, an eel, catfish and a brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        knifefish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the gouramis got fin nipped a little by the dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        puffers. the bettas, one they leave alone but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ohter is nipped alot. i wouldn't put them with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything with long tails. they need to be in a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        by themselves. if you did add them, add a bunch of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        java fern. they will hide in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- cynthia brennemann <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, my daughters finally pestered until we got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them both a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > puffer fish. I know they have a reputation for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > being nippy, but we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figured one fish couldn't do too much damage per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank, so we got two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dwarf puffers and put them in. Angel immediately
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decided that Puff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tuff was just the right size for a snack and tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to eat him, upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which Puff Tuff turned right around in his mouth and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bit him on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lip (earning his name) and zipped away. As we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > speak, the two are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > still at a standoff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta, in the other tank, terrorized the whole tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for a while,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chased the poor gourami around (looked like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chihuahua nipping at an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > elephant), and then tangled with Tanzanite, our Male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Betta. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have apparantly developed a grudging respect for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each other, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tanzanite is the only one without a nipped tail this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > morning, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta seems to have settled down. He earned his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name by apparantly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > disappearing, and then POOF, he's visible again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > While I was sick (flu, then pneumonia, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bronchitis), my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pest snail population exploded and killed all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants in one tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and started to mess with the plants in the other, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > we bought some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more and re-landscaped the tanks. The fish seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enjoy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > investigating the new stuff. Today we are going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > trade in the two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > huge plecos (just too darn big for the tanks, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they keep knocking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the plants loose) for some more moderately sized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish and maybe a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > golden snail or two if I can convince my daughters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there won't be a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem with them...do they eat the algae that forms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tanks, or do they eat the plants? And can they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > help to keep the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pest snails under control, or will they breed with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them...anybody
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know? Apparantly we have quite a bit of calcium in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > our tank, since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > squishing the pest snails was hard...even sliced my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > finger good on a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of the shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7118 From: paul helms Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Those White Squiggly Worms are BACK
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the albino forg is not the same as an african, and i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        am not real familiar with them, but any aquatic frog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should eat any worms that it can find. as far as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank goes, the more often that you mes swith the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the more likely you will develop a problem. inmy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        opinion, gravel vacs are only good for cleaning up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after an accidental over feeding, and a very rare
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surface cleaning of the gravel. i would never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recomend putting it more than a 1/2 in ch down into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the gravel. my self, i use a large clean up crew. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have 3 albino cori's, 2 peppered cori's, 2 green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cori's, 2 clown loaches, 2 plecos, 1 otto in a 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon tank. i am going to sell of the plecos to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bigger homes and get a small one. there are also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about 30 guppies in there with the clean up crew.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        twice a week the clean up crew is fed directly with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sinking pellets, the rest of teh time they are the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cleaners, this method has kept me worm free, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        casualty free for 3 years on this set up. there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        also 6-7 live plants in there as well. the only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that i have ever had problems with is snails, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        between crusing and the loaches i am very happily only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        down to the malayan snails. they are great at keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the substrate clean.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Between catching snails, white wiggly worms, and God
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > knows what else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am so paranoid to buy anything anywhere, I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > however do you as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you suggested Paul and bought a white ugly albino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frog. The kid in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the shop said it was an African Frog, I am thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now its not,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > huh?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyhow, I hope he can help get rid of those nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worms. As I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really up to a complete washdown of the tank. And of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > course I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > vacuuming the gravel, and changing the water, seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like when I add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a fish, I end up with a problem, that tank was brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spanking new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only 2 months old and then I put a preggy Molly in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there, who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > developed pop eye, had 2 babies, and then I found
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worms (probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > because I overfed the fish (im italian what can i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > say) anyhow, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hope this ugly looking frog does the trick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks so much for the suggestion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > african frogs will munch on them just like blood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > worms. i have only had 1 white worm inmy tank, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > came in the bag with a fish. i stirred up the rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > make it float and my angels ate it right away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > frogs should scavange fro them and are only 2-3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > dollars each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I am so disappointed and frustrated. So much for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > thinking they were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > all gone, I went to do a water change and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > started doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > their nasty dance again. I dont get it, this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > is brand spanking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > new only 2 months old I added some plants from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Petco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a pregnant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Molly from Petco and shortly after the babies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > born my daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > noticed those gross worms, I know its from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > overfeeding, I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > treated with some green tablet, with frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > changes with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > some ich medicine and even addad a zebra tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > whatever you call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > it and they wont leave, at this point I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > to add anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Can anyone PLEASE suggest something that will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I am not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > healthiest so I dont have a huge reserve of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > strength
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > to break down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > tank and scrub it, not to mention what would I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > while doing that? there is absolutely NO way I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > add them to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > other tank (you know that beautiful tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and angels? uggh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > A very frustrated fishkeeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Faithe :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > All your favorites on one personal page � Try My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7119 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: fish and other foods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have the following fish:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 corys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 white clouds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 betta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what do corys eat? I have been giving them just regular fish flakes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They will not eat the shrimp pellets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I saw a fish store feeding their fish different items like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        goldfish got oranges, and some other fish got lettuce. How do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know what to feed your fish?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7120 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, we traded in the plecos today and got some more neon tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some more skunk striped cories, an otoclinus and a male betta with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beautiful dark variegated coloring...looks like a fire opal the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the colors gleam against his dark background. He and Falling leaf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seem to be getting along just fine, no hostility, though plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        showing off. We hope he'll be a better suitor than Tanzanite was.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Puff Tuff has settled down and he and Angel seem to have reached an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        understanding. No nipped fins in that tank so far, but he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cleaned out all the pest snails that I saw yesterday. We still have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some ghost shrimp left, to my great surprise. The Angel was swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        along the bottom of the tank, and it was like he was getting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mouthful of water and spitting it to blow the ghost shrimp out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hiding, and he flushed a few, who promptly hid in the foliage. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are just impossible to see unless they are moving.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Poofta in the other tank seems to have made his mark on his new world
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and hasn't caused any more damage that I can see. He is also making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a dent in the pest snails in that tank...so far, so good. Of course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now my kids think I'm nuts for warning them that puffers are mean.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sigh. Do you think the puffers will need any extra salt? I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about one teaspoon per gallon of salt in the tank...is that enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for puffers? They are brakish water fish, after all...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7121 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To really have brackish water, it is more complicated than just adding teaspoons per gallon.  You will need a hydrometer to get it right and a separate tank for them.  If you add salt (and it has to be marine salt), either the freshwater fish will die of too much salt and high pH, the puffers will die of too little salt and low pH, or both at the same time and you will have nothing.  If they are brackish puffers, don't even consider keeping them with freshwater fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Poofta in the other tank seems to have made his mark on his new world
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and hasn't caused any more damage that I can see.  He is also making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a dent in the pest snails in that tank...so far, so good.  Of course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now my kids think I'm nuts for warning them that puffers are mean. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sigh.  Do you think the puffers will need any extra salt?  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about one teaspoon per gallon of salt in the tank...is that enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for puffers?  They are brakish water fish, after all...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7122 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dwarf puffers are freshwater, not brackish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Otos are social and do better with at least one 'friend'; they tend to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stressed alone.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "cynthia brennemann" <brennewoman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, we traded in the plecos today and got some more neon tetras,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some more skunk striped cories, an otoclinus and a male betta with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > beautiful dark variegated coloring...looks like a fire opal the way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the colors gleam against his dark background. He and Falling leaf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > seem to be getting along just fine, no hostility, though plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > showing off. We hope he'll be a better suitor than Tanzanite was.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Puff Tuff has settled down and he and Angel seem to have reached an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > understanding. No nipped fins in that tank so far, but he has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cleaned out all the pest snails that I saw yesterday. We still have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some ghost shrimp left, to my great surprise. The Angel was swimming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > along the bottom of the tank, and it was like he was getting a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mouthful of water and spitting it to blow the ghost shrimp out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hiding, and he flushed a few, who promptly hid in the foliage. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are just impossible to see unless they are moving.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Poofta in the other tank seems to have made his mark on his new world
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and hasn't caused any more damage that I can see. He is also making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a dent in the pest snails in that tank...so far, so good. Of course
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now my kids think I'm nuts for warning them that puffers are mean.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sigh. Do you think the puffers will need any extra salt? I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about one teaspoon per gallon of salt in the tank...is that enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for puffers? They are brakish water fish, after all...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7123 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/3/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Ray Re: Those White Squiggly Worms a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That same question came up several months ago about frogs and salt and it was brought out by another member that it would be okay, but I don't remember who said it.  I figured you'd pass, on the chemicals, but thought I'd include them as a way to get rid of those pests if there was no other way, although probably a complete tear down would be more trouble free than that route.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7124 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: fish and other foods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I posted this question for you on our forum http://www.applesnail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7537  There's some stuff listed there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 05:47 PM 12/3/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have the following fish:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 corys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 white clouds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 betta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what do corys eat? I have been giving them just regular fish flakes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They will not eat the shrimp pellets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I saw a fish store feeding their fish different items like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        goldfish got oranges, and some other fish got lettuce. How do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know what to feed your fish?





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7125 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well I'm not sure if they are brakish or not. I got them from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        petsmart, since the good fish store doesn't sell them at all (there's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably a good reason for that!). And they had them listed as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        freshwater fish. So now I don't know. They seem to be quite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        content, zipping in and out of the foliage and the shells on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        floor, and they are really doing a great job on the snails so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are teeny little things, about a quarter of an inch long...look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just like a bit of leaf floating by most of the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7126 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Puff Tuff and Poofta and other new developments
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ah, well, we'll get two next time. Poor thing. Would three be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better for them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otos are social and do better with at least one 'friend'; they tend
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stressed alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7127 From: Christina Chapman Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: DP's in community tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As I am addicted to Puffers, I thought I'd add my 2 cents, LoL.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have Dwarf Puffers, and they are purely freshwater. You mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that both tanks w/ the puffers have a lot of snails. What do you plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        on doing for feeding when the snails run out?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The snails are probably a big distraction from the other fish in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank for the DPs. But when the snails run out... Also, DP's who are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hungry tend to go after other fish (thus the feeding question).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know their behavior can also change when they become sexually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mature, so that is something to consider. They may still be young and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        calmer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A good site for DP's is www.dwarfpuffers.com and for all puffers:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.thepufferforum.com Those 2 sites probably have the most accurate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Puffer info out there, many sites have incorrect info...can't always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        believe what you read, so to speak.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christina
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7128 From: robdar4609 Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Small White Eggs on Plant?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a 29-gallon tank with 4 angels, 1 dwarf gourami, 2 danios and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 small kuli loaches...and 2 snails...on the leaf of an amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have in there, there seem to be a patch of white eggs (pinhead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sized)? Are these from on of the fish or the snails?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7129 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small White Eggs on Plant?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are the 2 snails cone shaped and small?  Pest snails lay flat hard patches of eggs that are hard to wipe off.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 01:05 PM 12/4/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a 29-gallon tank with 4 angels, 1 dwarf gourami, 2 danios and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 small kuli loaches...and 2 snails...on the leaf of an amazon sword
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have in there, there seem to be a patch of white eggs (pinhead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sized)?  Are these from on of the fish or the snails?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.rainbowsnails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails, jewelry, food and more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7130 From: paul helms Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: fish and other foods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cori's can't suck up the pellets, but they do eat them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as they start to soften, but they wil literally eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything that hits the bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Terri Bryant <bryants4god@...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I posted this question for you on our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        forumhttp://www.applesnail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7537
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There'ssome stuff listed there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 05:47 PM 12/3/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have the followingfish:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 corys
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 white clouds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 betta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what do corys eat? I have been giving them just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regular fish flakes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They will not eat the shrimp pellets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I saw a fish store feeding their fish different items
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        goldfish got oranges, and some other fish got lettuce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know what to feed your fish?












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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7131 From: Chad Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Compatable fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am a Cichlid lover. I have both Africans and Americans.My daughter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has a 50 Gal Tropical tank. I have not keeped up on tropicals. She
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has 6 giant danios and an assortment of catfish. She wanted some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fancy guppys. I added 6 of them and they lasted about an hour before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the Danios had killed them off. Does anyone have any suggestions as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to what fish I could add?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7132 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Compatable fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Giant Danios are known to be nippers, but you should be able to add any of the larger (medium sized) Barbs, such as Rosy Barbs, Clown Barbs or "T" Barbs without any trouble.  Tinfoil Barbs on the other hand get too big.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7133 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Small White Eggs on Plant?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If the eggs are within a small (1") oval glob, hard or semi-gelatinous, they are probably snail eggs -- if you have either Pond or Ramshorn Snails.  If the eggs appear to have been laid in a larger patch, in long rows right next to each other, they are probably Angelfish eggs, especially if you see one or two of the Angels staying in that area and chasing anything else away; the Angels would have to be at least 9 months old.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7134 From: Allisa Chilton Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have had my tank set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for about four months now. Previously I had always quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she raved about how healthly they were...she never quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I ordered a few neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to try the place out. They appeared healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        three days........one definitely is developing ick. So, should I:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose some of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7135 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i medicated my entire tank for one fish.. a bleeding heart tetra... once started medicating i saw that one o ther had the starts of it... and all in the end ended up good... i had to keep the heat at 83 with salt for like 9 days though cause you have to wait till you don't see any for 3 days then start letting the temp go back down.. so it was a long progress... however i have had no luck with neon's i tried keeping them in groups of like 5 but they always got the neon tetra disease and well the 2 i have i have always had.. so i am not adding more and wont have them again when i do more fish... they are so pretty i just have no luck.. so my question would be are you sure it is ich or not neon tetra disease.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have had my tank set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for about four months now.  Previously I had always quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she raved about how healthly they were...she never quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        put them in her tank, never any problems.  Well I ordered a few neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to try the place out.  They appeared healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        three days........one definitely is developing ick.  So, should I:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any advice would be appreciated.  Would hate to lose some of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guys because of my mistake.  Lesson learned!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7136 From: Faithe Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ***I had ick only once a few years ago, I raised the temp up to like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        85 for three days kept the lights out and added something.... and of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        course at the moment cant think of the name of it, a very small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottle maybe aquasol? I will check and get back to you tommorow, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it worked well never had a problem since. Now if I could just get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rid of those gross white worms. lol

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chilton" <ctmh@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have had my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for about four months now. Previously I had always quarantined
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source to order
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she raved about how healthly they were...she never quarantined,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I ordered a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to try the place out. They appeared healthy...........have had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three days........one definitely is developing ick. So, should I:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7137 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Bought new friends today! =:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today I bought some new guppies, I put them in my 20 gallon that my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        catfish emptied. I also put the catfish and the unknown fish (silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with tiny orange spots and orange eyes) into my 10 gallon. =:O) I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7138 From: Steve Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        First, be sure that your fish really have ich. I was looking for some photos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for you on the web to help with your diagnosis, but the pickings were pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        slim. Here are some links to photos:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.toptropicals.com/pics/aqua/disease/ick.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.mushi.petfish.net/ick.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://badmanstropicalfish.com/meds/ick.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You will need to treat the whole tank. The lifecycle of the parasite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _Ichthyopthirius multifilis_ is not entirely on the fish. Other fish in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank may be able to fend off the infection, but there is no guarantee of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Raise the temperature of the tank to between 80^o and 85^o F. This will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        speed up the lifecycle of the parasite and give you a better chance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ending the infection. Add about 1 tablespoon of salt for each 5 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water (use a bit less if you are not sure of the exact amount of water in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the aquarium as it can affect certain fish in an unfriendly way and you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't mention the other inhabitants of the tank). Continue the treatment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        until you see no more fish with the parasites, and then for another 3-5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        days. If you change water during this period (this is not a time to neglect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your regular maintenance) replace the salt that was removed. If you change 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallons, add another 1 tablespoon of salt. If water has evaporated, replace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the evaporated water, then do the water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When the treatment period is over. reduce the water temperature slowly, over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the period of several days or a week. You will remove the salted water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        during your regular water changes, so you don't need to worry about that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The ich may not have been brought in by the new fish. Ich seems to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        present in every setup, and just needs a weak fish to start the outbreak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However, it is always wise to quarantine all new fish for a minimum of two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        weeks, some people think the minimum should be three weeks, prior to adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them to the display tank. If you have a problem during the quarantine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        period, once the problem is resolved, the quarantine starts again from zero.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Allisa Chilton [mailto:ctmh@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best treatment for Ick



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have had my tank set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for about four months now. Previously I had always quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she raved about how healthly they were...she never quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I ordered a few neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to try the place out. They appeared healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        three days........one definitely is developing ick. So, should I:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose some of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Allisa





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7139 From: paul helms Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first thing is first... ever tank has the parasite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whether you want to believe it or not. the only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that kills the parasite and keep it from coming pack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is to run copper in the tank at all times, but this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will kill all inverts as well as scaleless fish. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        parasite will latch on to any fish that is stressed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for any reason, including poor water quality, a change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in water quality, or stress from being chased.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generally the new fish on the block will be chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        until he or she learns who is boss. it is just as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        likely that the ick from your tank has affected the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new fish as it is that the water from the store had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        high population of the parasites, but if the fish was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not sick with ock at the store and is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank....you gotta think about that. ick does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spread from fish to fish like a virus. like bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it can inly affect fish that have a weakened immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        system which means a thined slime coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Allisa Chilton <ctmh@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had my tank set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for about four months now. Previously I had always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she raved about how healthly they were...she never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ordered a few neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to try the place out. They appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three days........one definitely is developing ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So, should I:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7140 From: shillingcat1@juno.com Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The salt that you add to the tank for ich is it regugler salt or special salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7141 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got pickling salt... i have heard you can use pretty much anything but rock salt... butbest to hear what other say... shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The salt that you add to the tank for ich is it regugler salt or special salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7142 From: paul helms Date: 12/4/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can use aquarium salt, or any natural salt that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not processed...ie not idozied or anything like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for 1.50 there is natural sea salt at safeway or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        local grocery store....just make sure it is natural if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you buy it at the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "shillingcat1@..." <Shillingcat1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The salt that you add to the tank for ich is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > regugler salt or special salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7143 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for every i have been trying to figure out what the diff between all of the salts was a di think i finally geit it is it the processing of it and the idolization... very cool Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can use aquarium salt, or any natural salt that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not processed...ie not idozied or anything like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for 1.50 there is natural sea salt at safeway or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        local grocery store....just make sure it is natural if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you buy it at the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7144 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i use kosher salt. it's the cheapest way to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 5, 2004, at 2:37 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you can use aquarium salt, or any natural salt that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not processed...ie not idozied or anything like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for 1.50 there is natural sea salt at safeway or a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > local grocery store....just make sure it is natural if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you buy it at the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- "shillingcat1@..." <Shillingcat1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  The salt that you add to the tank for ich is it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > regugler salt or special salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7145 From: shillingcat1@juno.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7146 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cathy,  The salt you use for aquariums is regular salt if by that you mean natural.  It is not special in any way, only that it is not table salt and is not iodized.  If anything, is it the most "unspecial" salt you can get (pure sodium chloride).  About the least expensive source of this is canning (natural/Kosher) salt.  You can also purchase "aquarium salt" at your lfs, but its more expensive this way.  You don't want to use table salt, even if you get it non-iodized, as it has non-caking additives in it such as silicon dioxide and tricalcium phosphate, so that it pours freely from your shaker in any type of humidity.   Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7147 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul,  Very well written!  Your reply hopefully should help others understand the Ich infection just a little bit better.  Additionally, while I believe that the heat and salt treatment is best and safest for most mild Ich infestations, there are those people who will still medicate, especially in more severe cases.  As you pointed out, copper is not to be used with scaleless fish, although the makers of CopperSafe medication claim this product is okay to treat these fish, as its "stabilized copper".  Medications to watch out for with scaleless fish are any that contain dyes which will penatrate the skin, such as malachite green, methelyne blue and probably acriflavin as well.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7148 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Allisa,  The decision of whether to remove the affected fish to treat it separately can be considered, but depends on a number of factors, such as what temperature you are currently keeping your tank at, the frequency of water changes (you do and thus the general health of all other inhabitants), and any current stress factors, if any, now in your aquarium.  If the temperature is being maintained in the higher range of 77o or so and all other fish have been heathy with no other stress factors such as nitrite build-up from lack of water changes, then its safe to assume that those fish should remain healthy.                                                                                                     It that case, you may remove the neon tetra that is affected, and all other neons that were introduced at the same time (them being equally stressed at that time) to a separate tank of the same temperature, and pH.  Preferably a tank using much of the same water as your community tank, to reduce any further stress  on these neons.  The increased temperature and salt treatment can now be carried out for them as noted through other replies.  At this same time, increase the temperature of the community tank by a couple of degrees to bolster the immunity factor of the occupants; no salt needed unless Ich starts appearing on them. which it shouldn't.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7149 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "for every i have been trying to figure out what the diff between all of the salts was a di think i finally geit it is it the processing of it and the idolization... very cool Shannon" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah, it is the processing.  Kosher salt, for example, is just plain salt that has been approved by the kosher people (I guess it is a Jewish organization that makes sure it meets their standards).  Pickling salt has the special process of putting a picture of a pickle on the box.  Aquarium salt is given the name aquarium salt, which makes it worth more. :)  Table salt has been iodized.  Table salt and plain salt both have anti-caking chemicals added.  Sea salt is made by blocking off sea water and letting the water evaporate and the salt and minerals in the water is left behind. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Rock salt is the rock form of salt.  This is where it gets complicated.  There are two forms of salt found in nature.  Halite and rock salt.  Halite is a mineral, and is therefore pure NaCl.  Rock salt is a rock, which means it is mostly made of one mineral, but has other minerals mixed in.  Rock salt has a lot of halite in it, but there are other minerals like hematite (rust) mixed in.  There are mixed opinions about wether or not rock salt is ok for aquarium use.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7150 From: Faithe Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank, and after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to get fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its good to keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as they suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new fish to the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7151 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it's pretty much just tea tree oil, so it's not a harmful thing to do,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have done that in the past with no negative effects. if you can, keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some aquarisol on hand as well, it's a very very mild treatment for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sluggishness, ick, velvet and some other parasites. good for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        emergencies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 5, 2004, at 2:55 PM, Faithe wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank, and after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to get fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its good to keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as they suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new fish to the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7152 From: ron44852000 Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Snails in planted aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a six gallon tank with three plant in it[Java Fern, Giant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hygro,and Red Cabanba]. I also have a male Betta and a Chinese Algre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Eater in the tank. I noticed today that I am starting to get infested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with little snails.My question is will the snails kill my plants, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if so what is the best way to get rid of them. Are there a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could put in there to eat the snails that would get along with my to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7153 From: whitecru5 Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fairly certain it is ick, currently has tiny white spots on the fins,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with what seems more daily.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well i medicated my entire tank for one fish.. a bleeding heart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetra... once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > started medicating i saw that one o ther had the starts of it...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and all in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the end ended up good... i had to keep the heat at 83 with salt for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like 9 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > though cause you have to wait till you don't see any for 3 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        then start
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > letting the temp go back down.. so it was a long progress...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        however i have had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > no luck with neon's i tried keeping them in groups of like 5 but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > got the neon tetra disease and well the 2 i have i have always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had.. so i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not adding more and wont have them again when i do more fish...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they are so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pretty i just have no luck.. so my question would be are you sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it is ich or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neon tetra disease.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have had my tank set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for about four months now. Previously I had always quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she raved about how healthly they were...she never quarantined,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I ordered a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to try the place out. They appeared healthy...........have had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three days........one definitely is developing ick. So, should I:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7154 From: whitecru5 Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am 99.9% certain it is ick. For whatever reason, I did not get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        digest, so I came by the groups to check the replys. I do weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes of about 15-20%. So today being water change day, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        added the salt and have slowly raised my temp to 80 degrees. Before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I normally keep the tank at 76-78. Do you think that 80 would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        high enough or should I gradually go higher. I added salt based on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tablespoon per 5 gallons. The tank in question is a 29 gal, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5 neon tetras, 3 black tetras, 1 pictus cat, 1 algae eater. There is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a mix of real and fake plants. Will the salt and raised temp be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough to cure the fish in question and help keep the other fish from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        acquiring ick?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for all the replys, Allisa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > First, be sure that your fish really have ich. I was looking for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some photos
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for you on the web to help with your diagnosis, but the pickings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        were pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > slim. Here are some links to photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.toptropicals.com/pics/aqua/disease/ick.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.loaches.com/species_images/clown_ick_large.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.mushi.petfish.net/ick.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://badmanstropicalfish.com/meds/ick.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You will need to treat the whole tank. The lifecycle of the parasite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _Ichthyopthirius multifilis_ is not entirely on the fish. Other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank may be able to fend off the infection, but there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guarantee of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Raise the temperature of the tank to between 80^o and 85^o F. This
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > speed up the lifecycle of the parasite and give you a better chance
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ending the infection. Add about 1 tablespoon of salt for each 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water (use a bit less if you are not sure of the exact amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the aquarium as it can affect certain fish in an unfriendly way and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't mention the other inhabitants of the tank). Continue the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treatment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > until you see no more fish with the parasites, and then for another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3-5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > days. If you change water during this period (this is not a time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neglect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your regular maintenance) replace the salt that was removed. If you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        change 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallons, add another 1 tablespoon of salt. If water has evaporated,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        replace
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the evaporated water, then do the water change.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > When the treatment period is over. reduce the water temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        slowly, over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the period of several days or a week. You will remove the salted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > during your regular water changes, so you don't need to worry about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The ich may not have been brought in by the new fish. Ich seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > present in every setup, and just needs a weak fish to start the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        outbreak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > However, it is always wise to quarantine all new fish for a minimum
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weeks, some people think the minimum should be three weeks, prior
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to adding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them to the display tank. If you have a problem during the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quarantine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > period, once the problem is resolved, the quarantine starts again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from zero.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Allisa Chilton [mailto:ctmh@w...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have had my tank set
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for about four months now. Previously I had always quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she raved about how healthly they were...she never quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I ordered a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to try the place out. They appeared healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three days........one definitely is developing ick. So, should I:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7155 From: whitecru5 Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I understand that parasites are always present. Whether this fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        came from the store with ick or whether it was acquired from stress-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't know for certain. Currently the rest of the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fine....though they have not been stressed by travel as the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question has. My biggest concern is the whole tank not acquiring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ick. I do not want to stress the other fish if at all possible,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treating the one neon in question. Thanks, Allisa


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > first thing is first... ever tank has the parasite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > whether you want to believe it or not. the only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that kills the parasite and keep it from coming pack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is to run copper in the tank at all times, but this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will kill all inverts as well as scaleless fish. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > parasite will latch on to any fish that is stressed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for any reason, including poor water quality, a change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in water quality, or stress from being chased.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > generally the new fish on the block will be chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > until he or she learns who is boss. it is just as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > likely that the ick from your tank has affected the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new fish as it is that the water from the store had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > high population of the parasites, but if the fish was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not sick with ock at the store and is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank....you gotta think about that. ick does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spread from fish to fish like a virus. like bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it can inly affect fish that have a weakened immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > system which means a thined slime coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Allisa Chilton <ctmh@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > had my tank set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for about four months now. Previously I had always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local source
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > she raved about how healthly they were...she never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > put them in her tank, never any problems. Well I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ordered a few neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to try the place out. They appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > three days........one definitely is developing ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So, should I:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (What are the chances of the rest of my tank staying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7156 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Snails in planted aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If they are cone shaped our circular they are planorbids or physids, both are almost impossible to get rid of.  They hitch a ride to your tank on live plants.  they lay flat patches of eggs that are very hard to see.  My oranda's ate them and I know loaches do but I don't know if they are compatible with what you already own.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It might be easier to just try to keep them under control by picking out the larger ones as you see them or floating some lettuce or anacharis to attrack them so you can pull them out easier.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 04:28 PM 12/5/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             I have a six gallon tank with three plant in it[Java Fern, Giant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hygro,and Red Cabanba]. I also have a male Betta and a Chinese Algre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Eater in the tank. I noticed today that I am starting to get infested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with little snails.My question is will the snails kill my plants, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if so what is the best way to get rid of them. Are there a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could put in there to eat the snails that would get along with my to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Ron



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.rainbowsnails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails, jewelry, food and more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7157 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: buying fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        see it is funny most i have heard buy their fish from the mom and pop stores cause they have had better experiences there i on the other hand have had much better success at my well not local the local one is new and i don't like the ppl there but in a different city petsmart.. I think the key is this girl that works there and really knows her shit... the one time I bought fish there without her advice they died lol.. But going back to my mom and pop stores which the guy is a totally chauvinist and creeps me out... everything I buy from there dies.. I recently on Thursday bought 2 frogs cause they are illegal in Oregon so i can only find them at mom and pop stores and well off course they are not guaranteed. but they both have died in like 2 and 3 days.. and when i saw them there they just weren't perky like i thought they should be... i was leery but bought them anyhow... i have 2 already in my tank and my tank currently has no issues so im thinking they were just kinda week.. they were also different colored... very pale.... so anyhow that is my spiel... and i am still on the hunt for some frogs.. thinking of trying some mom and pop stores further away.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7158 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: answer then my own question about snails.... Snails in planted aqua
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i think most will agree that if you want them gone a zebra botia will do the trick i actually have one i bought to get rid of snails and now i feel bad for him so i am trying to get the snails to reproduce in my betta tanks lol... i know call me crazy but i love my botia at first i was like he is ugly but now he is one of my favs.. They are cheep and not aggressive at all.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ps getting to my question i was actually giogn to post.. my betta of 4 years died today.. very sad.. but as i was cleaning his tank i saw just tons of places where eggs are for my new snails that i am trying to get to hatch or whatnot... so is it possible to leave the water in the tank no filter mind you and just let the snails grow up or what do I do should I change the water at times... thanks.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             I have a six gallon tank with three plant in it[Java Fern, Giant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hygro,and Red Cabanba]. I also have a male Betta and a Chinese Algre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Eater in the tank. I noticed today that I am starting to get infested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with little snails.My question is will the snails kill my plants, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if so what is the best way to get rid of them. Are there a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could put in there to eat the snails that would get along with my to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7159 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i just went through this and cause you have some live plants i would keep it right under a table spoon.. def. not more.. and i think as i was told the heat needs to be at a minum of 83° i was scared for my fish but really they did fine.... i did notice i had to feed just a bit more cause the heat speeds up their metabolism but that is all.. Shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am 99.9% certain it is ick.  For whatever reason, I did not get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        digest, so I came by the groups to check the replys.  I do weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes of about 15-20%.  So today being water change day, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        added the salt and have slowly raised my temp to 80 degrees.  Before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I normally keep the tank at 76-78.  Do you think that 80 would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        high enough or should I gradually go higher.  I added salt based on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tablespoon per 5 gallons.  The tank in question is a 29 gal, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5 neon tetras, 3 black tetras, 1 pictus cat, 1 algae eater. There is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a mix of real and fake plants.  Will the salt and raised temp be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough to cure the fish in question and help keep the other fish from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        acquiring ick? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for all the replys, Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7160 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just do the whole tank. Seems like so much easier... and I have learned that my fish prefer a bit of salt kind of jazzes them up a bit so I have left a teaspoon in per gallon.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I understand that parasites are always present.  Whether this fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        came from the store with ick or whether it was acquired from stress-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't know for certain.  Currently the rest of the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fine....though they have not been stressed by travel as the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question has.  My biggest concern is the whole tank not acquiring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ick.  I do not want to stress the other fish if at all possible,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treating the one neon in question.  Thanks, Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7161 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails.... Snails in planted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 06:25 PM 12/5/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i think most will agree that if you want them gone a zebra botia will do the trick i actually have one i bought to get rid of snails and now i feel bad for him so i am trying to get the snails to reproduce in my betta tanks lol... i know call me crazy but i love my botia at first i was like he is ugly but now he is one of my favs.. They are cheep and not aggressive at all.... Shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can send you feeder snails by the hundred! Want some LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.rainbowsnails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails, jewelry, food and more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7162 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are you serious... how much does that cost... i  have been for like 2 months trying to get babies i don't understand that process maybe i need some help on that from you lol.. you being the professional... also i have those slimy patches how long do they take to become snails and keeping them in the no filtering betta tanks will that work... i tried the aquarium but my darn botia got to every last one in days i put like 50 in there i got from the store.. oh yes this is me that hated them before lol... im the first to say ppl change lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ps HELP TERRI
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7163 From: Steve Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The reason for the increase in the temperature is to speed the life cycle of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the parasite. This will hasten the cure. Not knowing your tank, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        difficult to say whether you should take it higher. The higher the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        temperature, the less oxygen the water can hold. This may affect the fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        especially if the tank is already somewhat over capacity. Stressing the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        may make them more susceptible to the parasite, and any other disease that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        might be in your tank, just waiting to get a foothold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have you read up on the lifecycle of _Ichthyopthirius multifilis_?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Understanding this may help you understand the rationale for the method of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treatment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Understanding water takes a bit more, since there are so many facets to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There is a book that I have mentioned on this list before, that deals with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water. It is mainly read for understanding the nitrogen cycle and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filtration, but it also touches on other aspects of water. It is called
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        _Fish and Invertebrate Culture_ and it was written by Stephen Spotte. Look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the Second Edition. It is out of print, but used copies seem to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        available through many sources. My favorite source, though I use others, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Finley Aquatic Books. You can check out his web site and then send a query
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to him to see if he has the book available. The site is at:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.finleyaquaticbooks.com/.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: whitecru5 [mailto:ctmh@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 6:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Best treatment for Ick




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am 99.9% certain it is ick. For whatever reason, I did not get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        digest, so I came by the groups to check the replys. I do weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes of about 15-20%. So today being water change day, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        added the salt and have slowly raised my temp to 80 degrees. Before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I normally keep the tank at 76-78. Do you think that 80 would be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        high enough or should I gradually go higher. I added salt based on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tablespoon per 5 gallons. The tank in question is a 29 gal, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5 neon tetras, 3 black tetras, 1 pictus cat, 1 algae eater. There is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a mix of real and fake plants. Will the salt and raised temp be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough to cure the fish in question and help keep the other fish from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        acquiring ick?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for all the replys, Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7164 From: Steve Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, there is no problem in using iodized salt in the aquarium. At one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it was thought that the added iodine would cause a problem with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and/or plants. However, this has been proven to be false. So, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        perfectly safe to use iodized salt, if salt is needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My preferred salt, however, is marine salt--the kind meant for marine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquariums. Failing that, I'll use kosher salt, otherwise known as canning or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pickling salt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I come from an earlier age of Aquarius, and did start using the kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        due to the belief of iodized salt harming fish, and that we always had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kosher salt on hand in the pantry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 2:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best treatment for Ick


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "for every i have been trying to figure out what the diff between all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salts was a di think i finally geit it is it the processing of it and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        idolization... very cool Shannon"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yeah, it is the processing. Kosher salt, for example, is just plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt that has been approved by the kosher people (I guess it is a Jewish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        organization that makes sure it meets their standards). Pickling salt has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the special process of putting a picture of a pickle on the box. Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt is given the name aquarium salt, which makes it worth more. :) Table
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt has been iodized. Table salt and plain salt both have anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chemicals added. Sea salt is made by blocking off sea water and letting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water evaporate and the salt and minerals in the water is left behind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Rock salt is the rock form of salt. This is where it gets complicated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are two forms of salt found in nature. Halite and rock salt. Halite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is a mineral, and is therefore pure NaCl. Rock salt is a rock, which means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it is mostly made of one mineral, but has other minerals mixed in. Rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt has a lot of halite in it, but there are other minerals like hematite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (rust) mixed in. There are mixed opinions about wether or not rock salt is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok for aquarium use.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.








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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7165 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        iodine in large quantities can cause problems with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        animal, even humans, so if you do not do frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes i would steer clear of the iodized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Actually, there is no problem in using iodized salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the aquarium. At one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it was thought that the added iodine would cause a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem with the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and/or plants. However, this has been proven to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > false. So, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > perfectly safe to use iodized salt, if salt is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My preferred salt, however, is marine salt--the kind
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > meant for marine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aquariums. Failing that, I'll use kosher salt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > otherwise known as canning or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pickling salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I come from an earlier age of Aquarius, and did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > start using the kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > due to the belief of iodized salt harming fish, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that we always had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kosher salt on hand in the pantry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [mailto:americanfishguy@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 2:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "for every i have been trying to figure out what the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > diff between all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salts was a di think i finally geit it is it the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > processing of it and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > idolization... very cool Shannon"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yeah, it is the processing. Kosher salt, for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > example, is just plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt that has been approved by the kosher people (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guess it is a Jewish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > organization that makes sure it meets their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > standards). Pickling salt has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the special process of putting a picture of a pickle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the box. Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt is given the name aquarium salt, which makes it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worth more. :) Table
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt has been iodized. Table salt and plain salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > both have anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemicals added. Sea salt is made by blocking off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sea water and letting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water evaporate and the salt and minerals in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water is left behind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Rock salt is the rock form of salt. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > where it gets complicated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > There are two forms of salt found in nature. Halite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and rock salt. Halite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is a mineral, and is therefore pure NaCl. Rock salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is a rock, which means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it is mostly made of one mineral, but has other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minerals mixed in. Rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt has a lot of halite in it, but there are other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minerals like hematite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (rust) mixed in. There are mixed opinions about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wether or not rock salt is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ok for aquarium use.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots, sponge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7166 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you put that salt into a plastic party cup and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lower it in the tank slowly, so the salt does not get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disturbed much, the fish who like the salt will swim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        near the cup, especially live bearers, and it wil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        encourage reproduction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Just do the whole tank. Seems like so much easier...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and I have learned that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my fish prefer a bit of salt kind of jazzes them up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a bit so I have left a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > teaspoon in per gallon.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I understand that parasites are always present.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Whether this fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > came from the store with ick or whether it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > acquired from stress-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know for certain. Currently the rest of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fine....though they have not been stressed by travel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > question has. My biggest concern is the whole tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not acquiring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ick. I do not want to stress the other fish if at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all possible,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treating the one neon in question. Thanks, Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7167 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        being an animal lover, it is a bit tough to say, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the meds and the work are not worth the cost of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        single neon. if i were you i would try the natural
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way. raise the temp to 83 degrees and maintain it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there for a good week, then slowly bring it down a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        degree every day or every other day until it is at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        76-78 degrees. during this time i would add some live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria to help you bio filter deal with teh dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        parasites and prevent stress to the other fish. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        personally would use stress zyme, but there are others
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        such as bio-spira, fritz zyme, etc out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        basically dose the tank every 2-3 days with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria or bacteria enzymes to give it the extra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        boost it needs. also, if you have any live bearers in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank, the elevated temp will make them more likely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to reproduce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- whitecru5 <ctmh@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I understand that parasites are always present.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Whether this fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > came from the store with ick or whether it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > acquired from stress-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't know for certain. Currently the rest of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fine....though they have not been stressed by travel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > question has. My biggest concern is the whole tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not acquiring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ick. I do not want to stress the other fish if at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all possible,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treating the one neon in question. Thanks, Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > first thing is first... ever tank has the parasite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > whether you want to believe it or not. the only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that kills the parasite and keep it from coming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pack
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is to run copper in the tank at all times, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > will kill all inverts as well as scaleless fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > parasite will latch on to any fish that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stressed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for any reason, including poor water quality, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in water quality, or stress from being chased.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > generally the new fish on the block will be chased
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > until he or she learns who is boss. it is just as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > likely that the ick from your tank has affected
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > new fish as it is that the water from the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > high population of the parasites, but if the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > not sick with ock at the store and is in your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tank....you gotta think about that. ick does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > spread from fish to fish like a virus. like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacteria
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > it can inly affect fish that have a weakened
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > immune
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > system which means a thined slime coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Allisa Chilton <ctmh@w...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > OK, for starters, I know I screwed up........I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > had my tank set up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for about four months now. Previously I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > always
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > quarantined any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > new arrivals. Had a friend tell me of a local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > source
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > to order fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > she raved about how healthly they were...she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > quarantined, just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > put them in her tank, never any problems. Well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > ordered a few neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > to try the place out. They appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > healthy...........have had them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > three days........one definitely is developing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > So, should I:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 1. Remove the fish and medicate just him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > (Would hate to stress him out more by moving him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > again)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 2. Add salt and raise the temp gradually for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > whole tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > (What are the chances of the rest of my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > staying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > healthy?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Any advice would be appreciated. Would hate to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > some of the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > guys because of my mistake. Lesson learned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7168 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        parasites, and requires a 20% water change after three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7169 From: paul helms Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if all else fails, buy a bag of salt for salt water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tankks for 4 bucks at the store. they now make a 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon mix sized bag that will make 5 gallons of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        saltwater with 1/3 cup of salt being in each gallon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so for fresh water use it will last a long time. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hate to say it, but a lot of people on here are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sounding really cheap. even aquarium salt should only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        run 2 dollars a box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "for every i have been trying to figure out what the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > diff between all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salts was a di think i finally geit it is it the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > processing of it and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > idolization... very cool Shannon"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yeah, it is the processing. Kosher salt, for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > example, is just plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt that has been approved by the kosher people (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guess it is a Jewish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > organization that makes sure it meets their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > standards). Pickling salt has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the special process of putting a picture of a pickle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the box. Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt is given the name aquarium salt, which makes it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worth more. :) Table
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt has been iodized. Table salt and plain salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > both have anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemicals added. Sea salt is made by blocking off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sea water and letting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water evaporate and the salt and minerals in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water is left behind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Rock salt is the rock form of salt. This is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > where it gets complicated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > There are two forms of salt found in nature. Halite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and rock salt. Halite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is a mineral, and is therefore pure NaCl. Rock salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is a rock, which means
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it is mostly made of one mineral, but has other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minerals mixed in. Rock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt has a lot of halite in it, but there are other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minerals like hematite
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (rust) mixed in. There are mixed opinions about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wether or not rock salt is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ok for aquarium use.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7170 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If it is a new fish, it probably just got a little stressed from the move to your tank.  The others didn't have that stress so they should be ok.  Heat should get the ich off the fish in a few days, and it won't hurt the other fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I understand that parasites are always present.  Whether this fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        came from the store with ick or whether it was acquired from stress-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't know for certain.  Currently the rest of the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fine....though they have not been stressed by travel as the fish in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question has.  My biggest concern is the whole tank not acquiring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ick.  I do not want to stress the other fish if at all possible,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        treating the one neon in question.  Thanks, Allisa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7171 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You can have them for the exact cost of shipping.  Seriously I disposed of over 100 just today and that was only a drop in the bucket. I have 280 gallons of water total and several of my larger tanks are infested.  I used to have red ear sliders to feed them to. Email me your address (not to the list) terri@... and I'll get a shipping quote.  If you live in a cold climate it shouldn't be more that $6 including a heat pack.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The eggs take 2 weeks to hatch, I don't know how to "make" them hatch.  I wish I knew how to make them "not" hatch LOL.  I constantly scrape them off the aquarium walls to help keep the populations down.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 06:38 PM 12/5/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are you serious... how much does that cost... i  have been for like 2 months trying to get babies i don't understand that process maybe i need some help on that from you lol.. you being the professional... also i have those slimy patches how long do they take to become snails and keeping them in the no filtering betta tanks will that work... i tried the aquarium but my darn botia got to every last one in days i put like 50 in there i got from the store.. oh yes this is me that hated them before lol... im the first to say ppl change lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ps HELP TERRI

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.rainbowsnails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails, jewelry, food and more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7172 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cool idea I have seen that in the stores... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you put that salt into a plastic party cup and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lower it in the tank slowly, so the salt does not get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        disturbed much, the fish who like the salt will swim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        near the cup, especially live bearers, and it wil
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        encourage reproduction
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7173 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/5/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i know can you believe it... i am trying to get some and everyone else wants them gone... ill send you my email soon.. one question though will a botia only eat what he wants or will he like eat and eat them all if i put them in the tank i don't want to make him burst... does that make sense.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You can have them for the exact cost of shipping.  Seriously I disposed of over 100 just today and that was only a drop in the bucket. I have 280 gallons of water total and several of my larger tanks are infested.  I used to have red ear sliders to feed them to. Email me your address (not to the list) terri@... and I'll get a shipping quote.  If you live in a cold climate it shouldn't be more that $6 including a heat pack.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The eggs take 2 weeks to hatch, I don't know how to "make" them hatch.  I wish I knew how to make them "not" hatch LOL.  I constantly scrape them off the aquarium walls to help keep the populations down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7174 From: Steve Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This doesn't make much sense. If you are not doing regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but continue to add salt, then the fish will die from an excess of salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the water before the iodine can have any adverse effect on them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Still, table salt is OK to use if nothing else is handy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 10:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best treatment for Ick



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        iodine in large quantities can cause problems with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        animal, even humans, so if you do not do frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes i would steer clear of the iodized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7175 From: Audrey Archer Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The salt that you add to the tank for ich is it regugler salt or special salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 03:09:53 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i use kosher salt. it's the cheapest way to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cathy and others...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a box of Kosher salt that I got for cooking, and it says clearly on the ingredients list that it has an anti-caking agent in it. It is not just table salt that has this. I would be sure to read very carefully any box of salt you consider using in your aquaria. It is no longer "cheapest" when you start losing your fish...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another subject - I have a 10 gallon planted tank with 5 golden White Cloud Mtn minnows, once-5-now-turned-50 Endler's livebearers, and a few pond snails. (They don't seem to be getting invasive anymore.) I finally made it to our "local" fish store (not chain store) which is about 25 miles from me, to check out 29 gallon cabinets and some Tanganyikan cichlids (without Malaysian driftwood and Easy Balance my well water pH is btwn 8.0 and 8.4) and asked him about my tank water, which I noticed was clear but blue-green when I gave a pair of Endler's to my daughter. My water parameters are fine, quite stable (in spite of overpopulation) at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 30 nitrates, 7.2 pH, 120 KH, 150 GH, and the Endler's are obviously very happy there, ha ha. I do weekly water changes of 15%, although this week I just topped it off with a gallon (heat has been on and it had evaporated that much, and I tested the water first and it was fine). The Endler's have taken care of all the fur algae that used to be on the aponogeton leaves, and I haven't had to use my magnet scraper in a couple of weeks, so I started dropping an algae wafer in for them, but the water is still quite bluish. He asked me first how long my lights are on, and I replied that I have them on a timer for 12 hours. (I only have 2 screw-in 10 watt flourescent bulbs.) Then he asked me if I use any Wardley food. (Yep!) Said it was not nutritional for the fish, has a lot of filler in it, and promotes algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This isn't the first time I have heard criticism of Wardley foods. But isn't this particular kind of algae healthy in a tank? Don't Endler's live in a pea-soup pond in the wild? I was going for a look like the bottom of a pond in my tank, but my husband is complaining about it. (But then, when he kept fish, they always died, so...)He is worried the cichlid tank in our living room will end up the same way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7176 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: answer then my own question about snails...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got your other email

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't have a clue how much the botia will eat.  I would think at first he would go crazy and eat a lot and then settle down when the supply stays constant.  Maybe someone here on the list could answer that better?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 01:05 AM 12/6/2004, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i know can you believe it... i am trying to get some and everyone else wants them gone... ill send you my email soon.. one question though will a botia only eat what he wants or will he like eat and eat them all if i put them in the tank i don't want to make him burst... does that make sense.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.rainbowsnails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails, jewelry, food and more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7177 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Base Ball size snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have over 100 of the snails that will reach baseball size. Pomacea Canaliculata.  I have had many emails from list members wanting these in the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I normally don't have them since they are illegal to sell in Texas however I accidentally let 2 clutches hatch.  I've given away a lot but I still have a lot left.  Right now they are pea size but they grown very very fast.  Fresh water aquarium snails, eats anything (can't live on algae though), requires ph 7.4 and up for shell.  This snail is a plant eater, mine lover water sprite.  They leave my anacharis and sword plants alone though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If anyone wants some they are free, you would just need to pay for exact cost of priority shipping and $1.40 (exact cost) for a 60 hour heat pack.  You can have as many snails as you want.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The one on the left will be gold with a white foot and the one on the right will have stripes and a dark foot (right now they are spotted bright green, very cute)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.rainbowsnails.com/thumbnails/2canababies.jpg


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        almost full grown http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/candyonashley6k.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/new%20large%20snail/ns9.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Holding an algae wafer in her mouth http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/terribryant/applesnail/candywithalgaewafer7k.jpg



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7178 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey,  Have noticed this latest post of yours with much interest.  I was wondering what brand of Kosher salt you buy, as I'm thinking that maybe different brands vary their ingredients.  I've been using Diamond Crystal (3 lb. box) and have just looked over every inch of the box and cannot find any reference to any anti-caking additives.  The box is mostly red and white with some black trim.  It was changed from an all red box, I think about 6 months ago.  I don't have an old box, so can't say if they included any additives then.  I have been using this brand, for various fish uses, for many years in concentrations up to 6 tsps. per gallon in some cases where  needed and have never had any bad results with it, so have to assume its perfectly safe.  But I was just curious.                                                                                                While I have never heard that Wardley's food was poor in nutrition, with a lot of fillers, I more or less have reached this conclusion myself after much wasted time in using it.  Naturally, its always best to feed a variety of foods, including frozen, live, flake and/or whatever.  With flake food, I always used to use Tetramin, with excellent results.  After a while I switched to Wardley's as the price is about half.  I've noticed, after a considerable length of time, that my fish just were not growing nearly as fast, but couldn't put my finger on exactly why.  I've since come to the conclusion that the poor growth rate had to be the result of the Wardley food and have switched back to Tetramin even if it does cost more.  I was not suspecting that food as its lists its protein percentage as about equal to most other brands, and still have no positive proof of its poorer quality, but the Tetramin sure shows a difference.  Good to know my suspicions about Wardley's is not unfounded, as I read in your post.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7179 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kosher salt is natural salt... no additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Audrey, Have noticed this latest post of yours with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much interest. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wondering what brand of Kosher salt you buy, as I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thinking that maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > different brands vary their ingredients. I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > using Diamond Crystal (3 lb. box)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and have just looked over every inch of the box and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cannot find any reference
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to any anti-caking additives. The box is mostly red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and white with some black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > trim. It was changed from an all red box, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about 6 months ago. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't have an old box, so can't say if they included
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any additives then. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using this brand, for various fish uses, for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > many years in concentrations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up to 6 tsps. per gallon in some cases where needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and have never had any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bad results with it, so have to assume its perfectly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > safe. But I was just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > While I have never heard that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Wardley's food was poor in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nutrition, with a lot of fillers, I more or less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have reached this conclusion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > myself after much wasted time in using it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Naturally, its always best to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feed a variety of foods, including frozen, live,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > flake and/or whatever. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > flake food, I always used to use Tetramin, with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > excellent results. After a while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I switched to Wardley's as the price is about half.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've noticed, after a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > considerable length of time, that my fish just were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not growing nearly as fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but couldn't put my finger on exactly why. I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > since come to the conclusion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that the poor growth rate had to be the result of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the Wardley food and have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > switched back to Tetramin even if it does cost more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was not suspecting that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food as its lists its protein percentage as about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > equal to most other brands,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and still have no positive proof of its poorer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > quality, but the Tetramin sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shows a difference. Good to know my suspicions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about Wardley's is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unfounded, as I read in your post. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7180 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wow! reall? duh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This doesn't make much sense. If you are not doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but continue to add salt, then the fish will die
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > from an excess of salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the water before the iodine can have any adverse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > effect on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Still, table salt is OK to use if nothing else is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > handy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 10:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > iodine in large quantities can cause problems with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > animal, even humans, so if you do not do frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water changes i would steer clear of the iodized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7181 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        actually, lack of iodine is a problem in humans. older generations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        often suffered from "goiters" on the neck due to a lack of it in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        diet, which is why table salt is now iodized.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 6, 2004, at 10:35 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wow! reall? duh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > This doesn't make much sense. If you are not doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > but continue to add salt, then the fish will die
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > from an excess of salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the water before the iodine can have any adverse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > effect on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Still, table salt is OK to use if nothing else is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > handy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 10:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > iodine in large quantities can cause problems with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > animal, even humans, so if you do not do frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water changes i would steer clear of the iodized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >            
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7182 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes, and over suplemantaion is bad...not saying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        iodized salt is bad, but humas are much larger than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish and they will be over supplemented quickly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > actually, lack of iodine is a problem in humans.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > older generations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > often suffered from "goiters" on the neck due to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lack of it in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > diet, which is why table salt is now iodized.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Dec 6, 2004, at 10:35 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wow! reall? duh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > This doesn't make much sense. If you are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > but continue to add salt, then the fish will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > die
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from an excess of salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the water before the iodine can have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > adverse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > effect on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Still, table salt is OK to use if nothing else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > handy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 10:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > iodine in large quantities can cause problems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > animal, even humans, so if you do not do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > water changes i would steer clear of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > iodized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7183 From: Julie Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not Audrey, but I just pulled our box of Mortons Kosher from the cupboard.  It contains "Yellow Prussiate of Soda (Anti-caking agent)"  listed, on my box, right beneath the nutritional facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not a complete idiot.  Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey,  Have noticed this latest post of yours with much interest.  I was wondering what brand of Kosher salt you buy, as I'm thinking that maybe different brands vary their ingredients.  I've been using Diamond Crystal (3 lb. box) and have just looked over every inch of the box and cannot find any reference to any anti-caking additives.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7184 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Julie,  Thanks for the post.  Okay, it looks like the contents of Kosher salt can vary according to brand, and that some Kosher salts do contain anti-caking agents.  Good to know!  Hope everyone reads your post and is aware of this.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7185 From: joequality1980 Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Snails in planted aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Those are probably ramshorn snails are relatively harmless. they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will usually eat only the rotting plants, and not do much damage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are more likely to get munch on by hungry, larger fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Some people like them, some people cant stand them-- its a personal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        preference. I keep them in, b/c I think they add just a little more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        variety to my tank.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "ron44852000"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <ron44852000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a six gallon tank with three plant in it[Java Fern,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Giant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hygro,and Red Cabanba]. I also have a male Betta and a Chinese
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Algre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Eater in the tank. I noticed today that I am starting to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        infested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with little snails.My question is will the snails kill my plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if so what is the best way to get rid of them. Are there a fish I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could put in there to eat the snails that would get along with my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7186 From: Faithe Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the directions say to add it to the tank when introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a water change after.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > parasites, and requires a 20% water change after three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7187 From: Benedick Mark N. Chan Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Aquarium w/o aeration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is it fine to have an aquarium without an aerator but has a lot of plants in it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If so, how much plants shall it be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7188 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When water evaporates the salt does not evaporate with it but become
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more concentrated. When you do a water change you will take salt and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other things out with the water. You need to replace the amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt that you took out with the water change, if you take out five
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallons then you need to put back n the amount that you ues for five
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallons. If you have a high evaporation rate then you should first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        put enough dechlorinated water of the same temp and pH to fill the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank before doing the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        change.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Faithe"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well the directions say to add it to the tank when introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a water change after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > parasites, and requires a 20% water change after three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7189 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I currently have a 4 foot tank set up with Tropicals in it. We are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        heading off to Townsville to visit my in-laws for 5 weeks over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christmas, and I have arranged for someone to house sit for us and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feed our animals,water the garden etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However I am not sure what to tell them about my fish. Do I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        show them how much to feed them (ie flake food, frozen bloodworms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc) and leave it at that, or should I be getting them to test the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water, vacumn the tank etc while I am gone? On one hand I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        worried about just leaving the tank for the 5 weeks and having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nothing done to it, and on the other hand I am worried about someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        else testing ph levels etc getting it wrong and maybe doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something while I am gone to kill all my fish! What has everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        else done in this situation?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My tank is a very basic set up, with fairly 'easy' fish to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after, and unless something drastic happens such as the heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breaking down I am tending towards just letting it stay as it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while I am gone - but I just wanted a second opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7190 From: Larry Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i would ration the food out into daily doses if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can, so that they don't overfeed them. as for water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cha nges, 5 weeks sounds like a long time, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        depending on how hardy the fish are, they may live.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I currently have a 4 foot tank set up with Tropicals
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in it. We are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > heading off to Townsville to visit my in-laws for 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weeks over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Christmas, and I have arranged for someone to house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sit for us and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feed our animals,water the garden etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > However I am not sure what to tell them about my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish. Do I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > show them how much to feed them (ie flake food,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frozen bloodworms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > etc) and leave it at that, or should I be getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them to test the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water, vacumn the tank etc while I am gone? On one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hand I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worried about just leaving the tank for the 5 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nothing done to it, and on the other hand I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worried about someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > else testing ph levels etc getting it wrong and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maybe doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something while I am gone to kill all my fish! What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > has everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > else done in this situation?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My tank is a very basic set up, with fairly 'easy'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after, and unless something drastic happens such as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > breaking down I am tending towards just letting it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stay as it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while I am gone - but I just wanted a second
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7191 From: Steve Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With regard to your comment on the anti-caking agent, any salt that flows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        freely, or with relatively few lumps, has an anti-caking agent added to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That pretty much covers all the varieties of salt covered in this thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Without the anti-caking agent, you'd be carving out and dissolving chunks of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt prior to adding it to your aquarium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Audrey Archer [mailto:arch1574@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 9:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Kosher salt, blue-green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The salt that you add to the tank for ich is it regugler salt or special
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks Cathy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 11
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 03:09:53 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: amalthea23 <amalthea23@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i use kosher salt. it's the cheapest way to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cathy and others...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a box of Kosher salt that I got for cooking, and it says clearly on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the ingredients list that it has an anti-caking agent in it. It is not just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        table salt that has this. I would be sure to read very carefully any box of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt you consider using in your aquaria. It is no longer "cheapest" when you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        start losing your fish...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another subject - I have a 10 gallon planted tank with 5 golden White Cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mtn minnows, once-5-now-turned-50 Endler's livebearers, and a few pond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails. (They don't seem to be getting invasive anymore.) I finally made it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to our "local" fish store (not chain store) which is about 25 miles from me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to check out 29 gallon cabinets and some Tanganyikan cichlids (without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Malaysian driftwood and Easy Balance my well water pH is btwn 8.0 and 8.4)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and asked him about my tank water, which I noticed was clear but blue-green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when I gave a pair of Endler's to my daughter. My water parameters are fine,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quite stable (in spite of overpopulation) at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nitrates, 7.2 pH, 120 KH, 150 GH, and the Endler's are obviously very happy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there, ha ha. I do weekly water changes of 15%, although this week I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        topped it off with a gallon (heat has been on and it had evaporated that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much, and I tested the water first and it was fine). The Endler's have taken
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        care of all the fur algae that used to be on the aponogeton leaves, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        haven't had to use my magnet scraper in a couple of weeks, so I started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dropping an algae wafer in for them, but the water is still quite bluish. He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        asked me first how long my lights are on, and I replied that I have them on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a timer for 12 hours. (I only have 2 screw-in 10 watt flourescent bulbs.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Then he asked me if I use any Wardley food. (Yep!) Said it was not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nutritional for the fish, has a lot of filler in it, and promotes algae.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This isn't the first time I have heard criticism of Wardley foods. But isn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this particular kind of algae healthy in a tank? Don't Endler's live in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pea-soup pond in the wild? I was going for a look like the bottom of a pond
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in my tank, but my husband is complaining about it. (But then, when he kept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish, they always died, so...)He is worried the cichlid tank in our living
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        room will end up the same way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey







                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7192 From: Steve Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Kosher salt is prepared in a certain way, under the "supervision" of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rabbi. It does not have anything to do with additives added or not added,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other than the additives must also be kosher. Being kosher is preparing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        foods under proscribed conditions, and the exclusion of certain foods and/or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ingredients. (The real short definition.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Kosher salt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        blue-green water



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kosher salt is natural salt... no additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Audrey, Have noticed this latest post of yours with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much interest. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wondering what brand of Kosher salt you buy, as I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thinking that maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > different brands vary their ingredients. I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > using Diamond Crystal (3 lb. box)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and have just looked over every inch of the box and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cannot find any reference
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to any anti-caking additives. The box is mostly red
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and white with some black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > trim. It was changed from an all red box, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about 6 months ago. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't have an old box, so can't say if they included
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any additives then. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using this brand, for various fish uses, for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > many years in concentrations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up to 6 tsps. per gallon in some cases where needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and have never had any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bad results with it, so have to assume its perfectly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > safe. But I was just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7193 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i left for that amount of time and my mom managed to screw it up good lol... i would for one show them how to feed and how to feed on the low side in case they feed more then it wont be as bad as them feeding more of what you normally feed.. cause i know i showed my mom specifically and she really over fed some how... i don't think i would want anyone vacuuming my tank that didn't know how already... maybe have them tank out like a few gallons here and there and replace with new water you have set aside... I am sure others will have ideas as well.. good luck...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What my mom did is not take ouit 2 fish that died from over feeding and decaying plants wich put my tank into a tail spin.. I got it all fixed though it was just a pain.. Shannon


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I currently have a 4 foot tank set up with Tropicals in it.  We are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        heading off to Townsville to visit my in-laws for 5 weeks over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Christmas, and I have arranged for someone to house sit for us and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feed our animals,water the garden etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However I am not sure what to tell them about my fish.  Do I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        show them how much to feed them (ie flake food, frozen bloodworms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        etc) and leave it at that, or should I be getting them to test the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water, vacumn the tank etc while I am gone?  On one hand I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        worried about just leaving the tank for the 5 weeks and having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nothing done to it, and on the other hand I am worried about someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        else testing ph levels etc getting it wrong and maybe doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        something while I am gone to kill all my fish!  What has everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        else done in this situation?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My tank is a very basic set up, with fairly 'easy' fish to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after, and unless something drastic happens such as the heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breaking down I am tending towards just letting it stay as it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while I am gone - but I just wanted a second opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7194 From: harry perry Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration/To Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have 3 tanks going now and I never use an air stone. As far as the plants, whatever your light and wallet can handle. I have always considered the need for an airstone to be a myth. Airstones don't add oxygen. They just stir up the water at the surface where the oxygen is mixed with the water. You can accomplish the same thing by overfiltration. I use Whispers on all my tanks. A 20 gal. whisper for a 10 gal. tank etc. Since sooner or later I am going to overpopulate the tanks this works for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Harry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Benedick Mark N. Chan" <bmchan@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is it fine to have an aquarium without an aerator but has a lot of plants in it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If so, how much plants shall it be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ben


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7195 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only if it has over filtration. the plants consume
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oxygen when light is not present.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Benedick Mark N. Chan" <bmchan@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hello.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is it fine to have an aquarium without an aerator
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but has a lot of plants in it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If so, how much plants shall it be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7196 From: paul helms Date: 12/6/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        read the entire instruction pannel. after dosing it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        meds you do a 25 % water change, and on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        instructions for adding new fish it says "see insert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for more information" check the insert if you had it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Faithe <faithe214@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well the directions say to add it to the tank when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > parasites, and requires a 20% water change after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7197 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/6/2004 9:15:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My tank is a very basic set up, with fairly 'easy' fish to look
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after, and unless something drastic happens such as the heater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breaking down I am tending towards just letting it stay as it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while I am gone - but I just wanted a second opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not sure if it has been brought up yet, but if you have water with Chloramines and chlorine you may need to educate on that as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My dad, who kept fish for over a decade did not heed my warnings about chloramines and killed of the most gorgeous fantail goldfish I had.  His reasoning was that fresh water would be better than the murky water the fish was in at that moment.  Never mind the big bottle of Amquel next to the aquarium. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hmm?  I know money does not grow on trees, but are there any local aquarium maintenance companies that you could have come by once a week maybe?  They could probably keep on top of water changes and pH issues as well as removing any thing that may have died.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also you may consider a measuring cup or spoon for your family to use when feeding.  It can help cut down on over feeding.  Emphasize that it would be better to underfeed than over.  If there is too much food they can die, but too little and they will be fine.  After all when shipping fish they usually starve them several days before hand to cut down on poisonous waste in the bags.  When I recently went into the hospital for a transplant, I had no time to prepare family for care taking of the fish, but I did get the idea across to them to feed every OTHER day, and to use a measuring spoon to feed.  I did not lose any fish that my parents cared for during the three weeks I was out.  My wife did have a die off in one tank, but that tank was beginning to crash on me when I left for the hospital.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hope you enjoy your vacation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7198 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: New fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got my guppies today! Great excitement. I got 4 girls and 2 boys. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there's a Molly in there too. Hmmm. I suppose that means I have to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some mollies to keep it company.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They look well and lively and they had a little food. I can't get anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        done for watching them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If a fish begins to be a bit stressed I presume I would notice easily, i.e.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it would become less strong in its movements, not eat?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7199 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ben,  Yes, aquariums can and have been maintained without aeration, with plants.  Early in the 20th century when the tropical fish hobby was just getting to be popular, most aquariums were maintained as near to the mythical "balanced aquarium" as was possible, without aeration.  Although its of course always best to use aeration and filtration whenever possible, aquariums can be maintained without either one.                                                                                Keep in mind, there are certain "rules"/guidelines that must be followed.  The general rule is 1" of fish per gallon of water, however this can be misleading as it really depends on surface area.  At 77o, 6 square inches (2" x 3") of surface area should be allowed for each inch of fish, at 74o allow at least 4 1/2 sq. in. of surface area per inch of fish; at 80o, 8 sq. in.of surface area must be allowed for each inch of fish.       You have to keep in mind though, that the longer the fish is, the body depth also increases, making the fish much bulkier as it grows which requires even more oxygen.                                                                                                          The above guidelines are for tropical fish with about the same requirements.  Colder water fish, such as goldfish, require more oxygen and need about 20 sq.in. (4" x 5") of surface area per inch of fish.                                                                              A general rule for plants is about one bunch plant (Anacharis, Cabomba, etc.) per square foot of bottom area.  Here too, this is a general rule as plants grow.  Also, in darkness (at night), plants consume oxygen and give off carbon dioxide as their photosynthesis process is temporarily shut down in the absence of light; so it must be kept in mind that they compete with fish for oxygen it this time, so its best not to over-plant.  This is one reason why aeration can safely double the fish capacity of a tank, not to mention the faster turnover of the surface water to exchange gases at a much increased rate; here its the carbon dioxide exchange rate that benefits most as CO2 does not normally dissipate as rapidly.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7200 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Steve,  Going along with your description, I am now assured that the Diamond/Crystal Kosher salt that I use does not include any non-caking agents, as I suspected as there is no indication of such on the box.  If I leave the box in the fish room, where the humidity is much higher especially in the Summer, it does just that; it cakes up to the point of my having to break it up before I can use it, so there can't be any non-caking agents in it.  To avoid that problem, I just make sure not to leave the box in the fish room in the Summer.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7201 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Steve,  Thank you, but I believe most of us are aware of what Kosher means, and the rabbinical supervision that goes along with it, regardless of what faith we are.  As you said, this has nothing to do with whether the salt has additives or not, except that Kosher salt would have to be supervised for any additives to it.  The real point of these discussions is whether some brands of Kosher salt contain additives and whether some don't.  It appears that the inclusion of additives to Kosher salt does vary depending upon brand as not all Kosher table salt contains additives.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7202 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey,  It appears that Shannon has the best solution; have your caretaker feed sparingly.  In other words, show your caretaker how you would feed, but with using only half the amount you would normally use, as other people have the tendancy to overfeed (they feel sorry for the fish).  Best way might be to use small envelopes with individual feedings in each one, if that would not be too much work for you to set up.  Then too, if you normally feed twice a day, tell your caretaker to feed your pre-packaged feedings just once a day.  The fish will survive.                                         As to water changes, unless someone is familiar with this, it might be best not to have them do it.  Even if you have fresh-drawn de-chlorinated water already in buckets, they may add this to the tank even if its 60 degrees and you'll come home to Ich, if they don't either adjust the temperature or pour it it  v e r y  slowly over a period of 30 minutes.                                                                                            Ditto with vacuuming the gravel, unless they are familiar with it.  This also requires added new water to the tank.  With half-rationing, there should be much less waste building up in the gravel and in the water, so although five weeks may be a long time, the aquarium should get through it okay.  One last thing to consider, there are automatic fish feeders on the market with provisions to feed your fish up to a month or more (battery operated); you just fill the little compartments only with as much food as you normally would use, but even here 1/2 rations might be better to keep up water quality during this time.  Ifb your lfs doesn't have them, Fosters & Smith does.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7203 From: Steve Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul Helms stated, "kosher salt is natural salt... no additives". My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        comments on kosher were meant to clear that up. Also, in my experience,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there are a lot of people out there who do not know what kosher really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        means. My comments were also to help them understand kosher.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: sevenspringss@... [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re: Kosher salt, blue-green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Steve, Thank you, but I believe most of us are aware of what Kosher means,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and the rabbinical supervision that goes along with it, regardless of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        faith we are. As you said, this has nothing to do with whether the salt has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additives or not, except that Kosher salt would have to be supervised for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any additives to it. The real point of these discussions is whether some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        brands of Kosher salt contain additives and whether some don't. It appears
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that the inclusion of additives to Kosher salt does vary depending upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        brand as not all Kosher table salt contains additives. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7204 From: cynthia brennemann Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aquarium w/o aeration
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't use aeration in my tanks, just a filter and lots of plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have twenty gallon tanks, each with at least six plants in it at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the beginning. The plants have spread out a big, by now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7205 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Steve,  Just checked out your sensible comment.  It looks like this can be taken two ways -- (1) Kosher salt is natural (usually), which it is, (not that natural means Kosher) and (2) Kosher salt is supervised, which it has to be in order to be Kosher.  Regards,   Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7206 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the kosher salt that i use at work in the kitchen is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just salt....no additives....i think it is made by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        diamond.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Paul Helms stated, "kosher salt is natural salt...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > no additives". My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > comments on kosher were meant to clear that up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Also, in my experience,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there are a lot of people out there who do not know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what kosher really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > means. My comments were also to help them understand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kosher.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: sevenspringss@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [mailto:sevenspringss@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Kosher salt, blue-green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Steve, Thank you, but I believe most of us are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aware of what Kosher means,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and the rabbinical supervision that goes along with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it, regardless of what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > faith we are. As you said, this has nothing to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with whether the salt has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > additives or not, except that Kosher salt would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to be supervised for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any additives to it. The real point of these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > discussions is whether some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > brands of Kosher salt contain additives and whether
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some don't. It appears
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that the inclusion of additives to Kosher salt does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > vary depending upon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > brand as not all Kosher table salt contains
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > additives. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7207 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i use the same brand in a professional kitchen, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have never had any caking problems, but i use a box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as little as a few days. as long as it is not opened
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or is not exposed to a lot of moisture, the larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crystal structure will not cake very quickly. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all natural no additives of any kind. that brand
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- sevenspringss@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Steve, Going along with your description, I am now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > assured that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Diamond/Crystal Kosher salt that I use does not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > include any non-caking agents, as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suspected as there is no indication of such on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > box. If I leave the box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish room, where the humidity is much higher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > especially in the Summer, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > does just that; it cakes up to the point of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > having to break it up before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can use it, so there can't be any non-caking agents
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in it. To avoid that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem, I just make sure not to leave the box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish room in the Summer. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7208 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: New fish!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you are going to have tons of babies! with each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mating the female guppy will have up to three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        preganacies, with up to 40 babies each time. guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are the rabbit of the fish world. it is also possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the molly to mate with a guppy. the molly may eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the guppy fry as they are not her own, so i would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watch that. if you plan on breeding them, you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        need to do something about your back filter, if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are using one, as it will suck up the fry. my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeding tank consists of a ugf filter with an optima
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        air pump running 4 uplift tubes, and lots of plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- P & D Denny <dennyzak@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I got my guppies today! Great excitement. I got 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > girls and 2 boys. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there's a Molly in there too. Hmmm. I suppose that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > means I have to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some mollies to keep it company.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > They look well and lively and they had a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food. I can't get anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > done for watching them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If a fish begins to be a bit stressed I presume I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would notice easily, i.e.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it would become less strong in its movements, not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eat?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7209 From: Patrick, the AmericanFishGuy Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now I know why I have to break up my pickling salt when I leave it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        outside, even if it doesn't get wet. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sevenspringss@w... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Steve, Going along with your description, I am now assured that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Diamond/Crystal Kosher salt that I use does not include any non-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        caking agents, as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suspected as there is no indication of such on the box. If I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        leave the box in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish room, where the humidity is much higher especially in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Summer, it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > does just that; it cakes up to the point of my having to break it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can use it, so there can't be any non-caking agents in it. To
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        avoid that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem, I just make sure not to leave the box in the fish room in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the Summer. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7210 From: Audrey Archer Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: blue-green water, Kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ray and Julie, my brand is also Morton.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul, I am not a Jew, but from my understanding Kosher does not mean "natural"; Kosher means that it has been approved by learned Rabbis as being scripturally okay to be consumed by Jews, meaning that it contains no leavening agents, or shellfish, or whatever else is forbidden that might be suspect ingredients in other salts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Of course, this is not to say all brands of Kosher or other suggested salts necessarily have anti-caking agents added, but if someone doesn't want to spend the extra buck for a box of freshwater aquarium salt, let's not say it is safe for fish just because it was blessed by a Rabbi.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And even if it were labelled as "natural", what does that mean? Salt from evaporated sea water is "natural", but that doesn't mean that if I go to Tybee Beach and bring home a gallon of sea water in a clean bucket, and then let the water evaporate out of it, that I should use that salt in the bottom for my aquarium. It would still be "natural", but also naturally full of dirt and dead microscopic sea life, and the bacteria that recently had our beach closed to swimming.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If we don't support our suppliers, they will go away. And that is bad. So I will spend the extra buck to get aquarium salt, and the extra buck for good quality food. No more "WalMart Supercenter" for my fishy friends, who can't speak up for themselves to say "Wardley food tastes as bad as it smells, give me something else for breakfast".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So... no one replied to my post about blue-green algae, assuming that is why my water looked clear but pale blue-green in a white container, and not some sort of dyes that may have been in some food. If it is, it is certainly "natural", ha ha... and it possibly may be why my tank stays so stable, in spite of my large crowd of fish, and I have no problem with letting it stay in my Endler's tank, but is it something I would need to be worried about developing in an unplanted Tanganyikan cichlid tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:29:14 EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: sevenspringss@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Audrey, Have noticed this latest post of yours with much interest. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wondering what brand of Kosher salt you buy, as I'm thinking that maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > different brands vary their ingredients. I've been using Diamond Crystal (3 lb. box)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and have just looked over every inch of the box and cannot find any reference
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to any anti-caking additives. The box is mostly red and white with some black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > trim. It was changed from an all red box, I think about 6 months ago. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't have an old box, so can't say if they included any additives then. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been using this brand, for various fish uses, for many years in concentrations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up to 6 tsps. per gallon in some cases where needed and have never had any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bad results with it, so have to assume its perfectly safe. But I was just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > While I have never heard that Wardley's food was poor in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nutrition, with a lot of fillers, I more or less have reached this conclusion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > myself after much wasted time in using it. Naturally, its always best to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feed a variety of foods, including frozen, live, flake and/or whatever. With
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > flake food, I always used to use Tetramin, with excellent results. After a while
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I switched to Wardley's as the price is about half. I've noticed, after a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > considerable length of time, that my fish just were not growing nearly as fast,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but couldn't put my finger on exactly why. I've since come to the conclusion
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that the poor growth rate had to be the result of the Wardley food and have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > switched back to Tetramin even if it does cost more. I was not suspecting that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food as its lists its protein percentage as about equal to most other brands,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and still have no positive proof of its poorer quality, but the Tetramin sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shows a difference. Good to know my suspicions about Wardley's is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unfounded, as I read in your post. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [This message contained attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 07:32:57 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kosher salt is natural salt... no additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:40:23 -0700
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Julie" <jaramey@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not Audrey, but I just pulled our box of Mortons Kosher from the cupboard. It contains "Yellow Prussiate of Soda (Anti-caking agent)" listed, on my box, right beneath the nutritional facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > julie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cheyenne, Wyoming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 13
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:50:16 EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: sevenspringss@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: Re: Kosher salt, blue-green water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Julie, Thanks for the post. Okay, it looks like the contents of Kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can vary according to brand, and that some Kosher salts do contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anti-caking agents. Good to know! Hope everyone reads your post and is aware of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7211 From: videomandlw2003 Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: pond building video
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a nice brand new video on basic pond construction for sale. If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        interested, email me at videomandw@... for more info.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        David Welch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7212 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Guppies, babies and tank cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think I may already have a pregnant female. Assuming I may want some baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies is it best to take them from the main tank in to a nursery tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How quickly do guppy fry grow?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A question about water changing - when doing my 20% change, is it okay to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        use warm tap water to get to the same temperature as the tank water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Obviously the water will be tested and adjusted if necessary once the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is full again. It looks like I ought to buy a gravel vacuum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7213 From: Erin VanKouwenberg Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Wardley foods
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         I finally made it to our "local" fish store **snip** and asked him about my tank water, which I noticed was clear but blue-green when I gave a pair of Endler's to my daughter. My water parameters are fine, quite stable (in spite of overpopulation) at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 30 nitrates, 7.2 pH, 120 KH, 150 GH, and the Endler's are obviously very happy there, ha ha. I do weekly water changes of 15%, although this week I just topped it off with a gallon (heat has been on and it had evaporated that much, and I tested the water first and it was fine). The Endler's have taken care of all the fur algae that used to be on the aponogeton leaves, and I haven't had to use my magnet scraper in a couple of weeks, so I started dropping an algae wafer in for them, but the water is still quite bluish. He asked me first how long my lights are on, and I replied that I have them on a timer for 12 hours. (I only have 2 screw-in 10 watt flourescent bulbs.) Then he asked me if I use any Wardley food. (Yep!) Said it was not nutritional for the fish, has a lot of filler in it, and promotes algae.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This isn't the first time I have heard criticism of Wardley foods. But isn't this particular kind of algae healthy in a tank? Don't Endler's live in a pea-soup pond in the wild? I was going for a look like the bottom of a pond in my tank, but my husband is complaining about it. (But then, when he kept fish, they always died, so...)He is worried the cichlid tank in our living room will end up the same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --------End Original Message--------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ah, sounds like you made it to Exotic Underworlds. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We bought a can of Wardley (literally DAYS before we received our "sample" from Hikari), and I've noticed that I have to net out a lot more uneaten food when we feed the fishies the Wardley flakes. They just pick at it and nibble at the algae on the glass. We sort of switch back and forth between the Hikari flakes, the Wardley flakes, and tubifex cube once a week. (The zucchini supply got freezer burned and they wouldn't touch it, so we tossed it and have to get a new one to start that routine up again). I hadn't heard the complaints about Wardley before, or else we wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Ah well, live and learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My Endler fry are growing fast, soon I hope they'll be developed enough for me to tell their genders so I can take the vast majority of them into town to give them to the lady at the little LFS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Erin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        15 gallon planted freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Mickey Mouse Platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 "Fancy Mollie"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Black Balloon Molly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Endlers (m & f)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        15-20 Endler fry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 rubber lip plecostamus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7214 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wow envelops.. that is my solution lol i used ziploc bags when i was gone.. and well half of it stuck in the bag cause of friction lol.. so there is more confusion how they were overfed but oh well.. lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey,  It appears that Shannon has the best solution; have your caretaker feed sparingly.  In other words, show your caretaker how you would feed, but with using only half the amount you would normally use, as other people have the tendancy to overfeed (they feel sorry for the fish).  Best way might be to use small envelopes with individual feedings in each one, if that would not be too much work for you to set up.  Then too, if you normally feed twice a day, tell your caretaker to feed your pre-packaged feedings just once a day.  The fish will survive.                                         As to water changes, unless someone is familiar with this, it might be best not to have them do it.  Even if you have fresh-drawn de-chlorinated water already in buckets, they may add this to the tank even if its 60 degrees and you'll come home to Ich, if they don't either adjust the temperature or pour it it  v e r y  slowly over a period of 30 minutes.                                                                                            Ditto with vacuuming the gravel, unless they are familiar with it.  This also requires added new water to the tank.  With half-rationing, there should be much less waste building up in the gravel and in the water, so although five weeks may be a long time, the aquarium should get through it okay.  One last thing to consider, there are automatic fish feeders on the market with provisions to feed your fish up to a month or more (battery operated); you just fill the little compartments only with as much food as you normally would use, but even here 1/2 rations might be better to keep up water quality during this time.  Ifb your lfs doesn't have them, Fosters & Smith does.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7215 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Guppies, babies and tank cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        warm tap water can contain minerals from the hot water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        heater that are not desreable for fish tanks. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not that these minerals are not present in cold water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but in hotter water they can be more plentiful if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have an older water heater. in addition there is more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chance of dissolved copper form the hot tap, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        kills anything without a bac bone including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        benneficial bacteria. it is best in my opinion to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your water setup 2-3 days in adavance so that it is at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        least at your room temperature and has had time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stabalize after being treated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- P & D Denny <dennyzak@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think I may already have a pregnant female.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Assuming I may want some baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies is it best to take them from the main tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in to a nursery tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > How quickly do guppy fry grow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A question about water changing - when doing my 20%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change, is it okay to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use warm tap water to get to the same temperature as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Obviously the water will be tested and adjusted if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > necessary once the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is full again. It looks like I ought to buy a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel vacuum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7216 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Guppies, babies and tank cleaning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you don't want to get another tank to save the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        babies, you can get a bredding net for 3-4 dollars
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that goes inside your current tank and hangs from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        edge so that no one can get in or out, but water flows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        through the mesh freely. it will take about 3 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for the babies to grow big enough to be safe with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        adults.the net is a mesh bag taht goes over a plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        box, i think it is about 5 inch by 5 inch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > warm tap water can contain minerals from the hot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > heater that are not desreable for fish tanks. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not that these minerals are not present in cold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but in hotter water they can be more plentiful if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have an older water heater. in addition there is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chance of dissolved copper form the hot tap, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kills anything without a bac bone including
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > benneficial bacteria. it is best in my opinion to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your water setup 2-3 days in adavance so that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > least at your room temperature and has had time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stabalize after being treated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- P & D Denny <dennyzak@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I think I may already have a pregnant female.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Assuming I may want some baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guppies is it best to take them from the main tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in to a nursery tank?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > How quickly do guppy fry grow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > A question about water changing - when doing my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 20%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > change, is it okay to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > use warm tap water to get to the same temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the tank water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Obviously the water will be tested and adjusted if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > necessary once the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is full again. It looks like I ought to buy a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gravel vacuum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7217 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for all the advice. I am going to use the envelope idea, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have bought some frozen blood worms that can be fed to them as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while I am gone - they are in nice little portion controlled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cubes!. I have decided to give the tank a really good clean out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today and fill the tank right up so hopefully even with evaporation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it should be able to go without a top up until I get back.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I found a local shop who will do home visits and clean your tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        check levels, health of fish etc - but they charge $85 Aus for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this. I was thinking of taking the number with me and if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        housesitter says a fish has died, the tank has gone green or any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other nightmare sounding problem I can ring and get these people to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        go and do a visit and check it out for me. They will medicate the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank etc and just charge you extra for whatever they have to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hopefully everything will go just fine though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wow envelops.. that is my solution lol i used ziploc bags when i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was gone..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and well half of it stuck in the bag cause of friction lol.. so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > confusion how they were overfed but oh well.. lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tracey, It appears that Shannon has the best solution; have your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        caretaker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feed sparingly. In other words, show your caretaker how you would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feed, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with using only half the amount you would normally use, as other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tendancy to overfeed (they feel sorry for the fish). Best way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        might be to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use small envelopes with individual feedings in each one, if that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        would not be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > too much work for you to set up. Then too, if you normally feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        twice a day,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tell your caretaker to feed your pre-packaged feedings just once a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        day. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish will survive. As to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > unless someone is familiar with this, it might be best not to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Even if you have fresh-drawn de-chlorinated water already in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buckets, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > may add this to the tank even if its 60 degrees and you'll come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        home to Ich, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they don't either adjust the temperature or pour it it v e r y
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        slowly over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a period of 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ditto with vacuuming the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel, unless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they are familiar with it. This also requires added new water to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > With half-rationing, there should be much less waste building up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in the gravel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and in the water, so although five weeks may be a long time, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should get through it okay. One last thing to consider, there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        automatic fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feeders on the market with provisions to feed your fish up to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        month or more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (battery operated); you just fill the little compartments only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > food as you normally would use, but even here 1/2 rations might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up water quality during this time. Ifb your lfs doesn't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them, Fosters &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Smith does. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7218 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: look it up before you correct people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is for all of those "smart" ones who love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        contradict everything that people say, without looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything up at all. according to dictionary.com as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well as a few standard dictionaries i have laying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around this is the DEFINTION OF KOSHER SALT, which you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can LOOK UP yourself if you don't believe what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        read!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        n.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A refined, coarse-grained salt with no additives."


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is the one that most restaurants in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Francisco Bay Rea use as it is best for cooking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        outside of baking, it also happens to be completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additive free, which i and another member have posted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (you may have to copy and paste these to your browser)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.butcher-packer.com/pg_curing_kosher.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for those who want morton salt without all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crap...here ya go.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/foodsalts/canningsalt.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        check this one out too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.redmondsalt.com/





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7219 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: look it up before you correct people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is for all of those "smart" ones who love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        contradict everything that people say, without looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything up at all. according to dictionary.com as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well as a few standard dictionaries i have laying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around this is the DEFINTION OF KOSHER SALT, which you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can LOOK UP yourself if you don't believe what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        read!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        n.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A refined, coarse-grained salt with no additives."


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is the one that most restaurants in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Francisco Bay Rea use as it is best for cooking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        outside of baking, it also happens to be completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additive free, which i and another member have posted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (you may have to copy and paste these to your browser)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.butcher-packer.com/pg_curing_kosher.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for those who want morton salt without all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crap...here ya go.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/foodsalts/canningsalt.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        check this one out too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.redmondsalt.com/






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7220 From: Steve Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: look it up before you correct people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From the Morton site, that you point people to in your post: "A coarse flake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salt with freeflowing agent used by many homemakers in gourmet cooking and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in preparing kosher meals."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From davidscooking.com, "Commercial table salt can contain various additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for nutritional (iodine) or aesthetic (anti-caking) reasons. Some kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salts contain anti-caking agents too (Morton's contains yellow prussiate of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        soda) but even when it contains an anti-caking agent, kosher salt has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lighter, more natural taste."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From the cooking.com Glossary, "Kosher salt is a coarse salt that contains
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no additives. It dissolves quickly and is preferred by many professional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chefs for its texture and flavor. It is also known as pickling, rock or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        coarse salt."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From whatscookingamerica.net, "Kosher salt is preferred over table salt for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        canning and pickling. Like pickling salt, kosher salt is free of iodine,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which can react adversely with certain foods. Some brands of kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        contain yellow prussiate of soda, an anti-caking agent, but unlike the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anti-caking additive in table salt, it doesn't cloud pickling liquids. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only drawback to using kosher salt for pickling or canning is that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grains are coarser and flakier, and can't be packed as tightly into a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        measuring cup as pickling salt. This raises the risk that the salt won't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        properly measured. To get around this problem, measure by weight instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        volume. Since it's not as dense as pickling salt, you'll need to use more,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but how much more varies by brand. 1 cup + 2 tablespoons of Morton Kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Salt = 1 cup Morton Canning & Pickling Salt. For other brands, it's best to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        measure by weight rather than volume."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From foodnetwork.com, Culinary Q & A, "Kosher salt takes its name from its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        use in the koshering process. It contains no preservatives and can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        derived from either seawater or underground sources. Aside from being a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        great salt to keep within arm's reach when you are cooking, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        particularly useful in preserving, because its large crystals draw moisture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out of meats and other foods more effectively than other salts."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So take your pick. FWIW, I've found that dictionary.com is not all that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reliable as a source of information. It generally gives you the quick answer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rather than the full answer. I also visited a number of Jewish sites, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was not able to find a mention of whether kosher salt could contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additives. I would suppose that the final answer could only come from an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        orthodox rabbi.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] look it up before you correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is for all of those "smart" ones who love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        contradict everything that people say, without looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything up at all. according to dictionary.com as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well as a few standard dictionaries i have laying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around this is the DEFINTION OF KOSHER SALT, which you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can LOOK UP yourself if you don't believe what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        read!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        n.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A refined, coarse-grained salt with no additives."


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is the one that most restaurants in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Francisco Bay Rea use as it is best for cooking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        outside of baking, it also happens to be completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additive free, which i and another member have posted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (you may have to copy and paste these to your browser)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.butcher-packer.com/pg_curing_kosher.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for those who want morton salt without all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crap...here ya go.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/foodsalts/canningsalt.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        check this one out too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.redmondsalt.com/






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7221 From: paul helms Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: look it up before you correct people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the morton site was mentioned with a direct link to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mortons alternative without additives. 2 of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quotes here go perfectly along with dictionary.coms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        defintion so i guess it can't be that far off now can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it? in cooking terms kosher salt does not have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additives, it is that siple. you will always find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        companies taht want to compete by calling their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        products something taht they are not. that is teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        case with champagne as well. true champagne has to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        come form the correct region in france, but you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        always find a vineyard from another country calling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their sparkling win champagne. same concept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here....does not fit the definition but is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thing as far as taste, and look.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From the Morton site, that you point people to in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your post: "A coarse flake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt with freeflowing agent used by many homemakers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in gourmet cooking and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in preparing kosher meals."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From davidscooking.com, "Commercial table salt can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > contain various additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for nutritional (iodine) or aesthetic (anti-caking)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reasons. Some kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salts contain anti-caking agents too (Morton's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > contains yellow prussiate of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > soda) but even when it contains an anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > agent, kosher salt has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lighter, more natural taste."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From the cooking.com Glossary, "Kosher salt is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > coarse salt that contains
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > no additives. It dissolves quickly and is preferred
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by many professional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chefs for its texture and flavor. It is also known
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as pickling, rock or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > coarse salt."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From whatscookingamerica.net, "Kosher salt is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > preferred over table salt for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > canning and pickling. Like pickling salt, kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt is free of iodine,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which can react adversely with certain foods. Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > brands of kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > contain yellow prussiate of soda, an anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > agent, but unlike the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anti-caking additive in table salt, it doesn't cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pickling liquids. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only drawback to using kosher salt for pickling or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > canning is that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grains are coarser and flakier, and can't be packed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as tightly into a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > measuring cup as pickling salt. This raises the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > risk that the salt won't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > properly measured. To get around this problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > measure by weight instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > volume. Since it's not as dense as pickling salt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you'll need to use more,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but how much more varies by brand. 1 cup + 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tablespoons of Morton Kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Salt = 1 cup Morton Canning & Pickling Salt. For
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other brands, it's best to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > measure by weight rather than volume."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From foodnetwork.com, Culinary Q & A, "Kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > takes its name from its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > use in the koshering process. It contains no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > preservatives and can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > derived from either seawater or underground sources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Aside from being a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > great salt to keep within arm's reach when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cooking, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > particularly useful in preserving, because its large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crystals draw moisture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out of meats and other foods more effectively than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other salts."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So take your pick. FWIW, I've found that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dictionary.com is not all that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reliable as a source of information. It generally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gives you the quick answer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rather than the full answer. I also visited a number
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of Jewish sites, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was not able to find a mention of whether kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salt could contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > additives. I would suppose that the final answer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could only come from an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > orthodox rabbi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] look it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > before you correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this is for all of those "smart" ones who love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > contradict everything that people say, without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anything up at all. according to dictionary.com as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well as a few standard dictionaries i have laying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around this is the DEFINTION OF KOSHER SALT, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can LOOK UP yourself if you don't believe what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > read!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > n.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > A refined, coarse-grained salt with no additives."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this is the one that most restaurants in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Francisco Bay Rea use as it is best for cooking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > outside of baking, it also happens to be completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > additive free, which i and another member have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > posted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (you may have to copy and paste these to your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > browser)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.butcher-packer.com/pg_curing_kosher.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for those who want morton salt without all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crap...here ya go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/foodsalts/canningsalt.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > check this one out too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.redmondsalt.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7222 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/7/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: general announcement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guys, when the conversation gets to this point of nitpicking, please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        take it offline, we tend to loose members this way. private emails will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        accomplish your goals until you come to an agreement which you are then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        welcome to share with the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 8, 2004, at 12:50 AM, paul helms wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the morton site was mentioned with a direct link to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mortons alternative without additives.  2 of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > quotes here go perfectly along with dictionary.coms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > defintion so i guess it can't be that far off now can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it?  in cooking terms kosher salt does not have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > additives, it is that siple.  you will always find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > companies taht want to compete by calling their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > products something taht they are not.  that is teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > case with champagne as well.  true champagne has to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > come form the correct region in france, but you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > always find a vineyard from another country calling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their sparkling win champagne.  same concept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > here....does not fit the definition but is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thing as far as taste, and look.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From the Morton site, that you point people to in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > your post: "A coarse flake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > salt with freeflowing agent used by many homemakers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in gourmet cooking and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in preparing kosher meals."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From davidscooking.com, "Commercial table salt can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > contain various additives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for nutritional (iodine) or aesthetic (anti-caking)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > reasons. Some kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > salts contain anti-caking agents too (Morton's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > contains yellow prussiate of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > soda) but even when it contains an anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > agent, kosher salt has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > lighter, more natural taste."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From the cooking.com Glossary, "Kosher salt is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > coarse salt that contains
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > no additives. It dissolves quickly and is preferred
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > by many professional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > chefs for its texture and flavor. It is also known
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as pickling, rock or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > coarse salt."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From whatscookingamerica.net, "Kosher salt is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > preferred over table salt for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > canning and pickling. Like pickling salt, kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > salt is free of iodine,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > which can react adversely with certain foods.  Some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > brands of kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > contain yellow prussiate of soda, an anti-caking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > agent, but unlike the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anti-caking additive in table salt, it doesn't cloud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > pickling liquids. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > only drawback to using kosher salt for pickling or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > canning is that the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > grains are coarser and flakier, and can't be packed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as tightly into a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > measuring cup as pickling salt.  This raises the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > risk that the salt won't be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > properly measured. To get around this problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > measure by weight instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > volume.  Since it's not as dense as pickling salt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > you'll need to use more,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > but how much more varies by brand.  1 cup + 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tablespoons of Morton Kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Salt = 1 cup Morton Canning & Pickling Salt.  For
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > other brands, it's best to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > measure by weight rather than volume."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From foodnetwork.com, Culinary Q & A, "Kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > takes its name from its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > use in the koshering process. It contains no
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > preservatives and can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > derived from either seawater or underground sources.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Aside from being a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > great salt to keep within arm's reach when you are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cooking, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > particularly useful in preserving, because its large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > crystals draw moisture
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out of meats and other foods more effectively than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > other salts."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > So take your pick. FWIW, I've found that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > dictionary.com is not all that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > reliable as a source of information. It generally
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gives you the quick answer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > rather than the full answer. I also visited a number
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of Jewish sites, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > was not able to find a mention of whether kosher
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > salt could contain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > additives. I would suppose that the final answer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > could only come from an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > orthodox rabbi.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] look it up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > before you correct
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this is for all of those "smart" ones who love to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > contradict everything that people say, without
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anything up at all.  according to dictionary.com as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > well as a few standard dictionaries i have laying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > around this is the DEFINTION OF KOSHER SALT, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > can LOOK UP yourself if you don't believe what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > read!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > "kosher salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > n.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > A refined, coarse-grained salt with no additives."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > this is the one that most restaurants in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Francisco Bay Rea use as it is best for cooking,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > outside of baking, it also happens to be completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > additive free, which i and another member have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > posted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (you may have to copy and paste these to your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > browser)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://www.butcher-packer.com/pg_curing_kosher.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for those who want morton salt without all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > crap...here ya go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/foodsalts/canningsalt.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > check this one out too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://www.redmondsalt.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7223 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Holiday advice needed

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey, Have a pleasant, worry-free trip!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7224 From: Steve Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: look it up before you correct people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And, down near the bottom of the post, directly after the quotes from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        various web sites, is the sentence, "So take your pick." And further down in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that paragraph, I also state that the authoritative declaration will come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from an orthodox rabbi.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just like statistics, you can find on the web anything that might support
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your position, as right or wrong as it may be. The quotes included show that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to be true.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] look it up before you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        correct people



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the morton site was mentioned with a direct link to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mortons alternative without additives. 2 of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quotes here go perfectly along with dictionary.coms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        defintion so i guess it can't be that far off now can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it? in cooking terms kosher salt does not have any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        additives, it is that siple. you will always find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        companies taht want to compete by calling their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        products something taht they are not. that is teh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        case with champagne as well. true champagne has to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        come form the correct region in france, but you will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        always find a vineyard from another country calling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their sparkling win champagne. same concept
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here....does not fit the definition but is the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thing as far as taste, and look.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7225 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        After all these salty discussions, I have added sea salt for my guppies. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        added 3 tbsps for the 65l tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What should the filter be running on - Fluval2+. Low / medium / high - for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a tank with 65l and 6 guppies and a baby molly? the fish have been in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank for two days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7226 From: Faithe Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        No insert just a blue bottle and nothing about water changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > read the entire instruction pannel. after dosing it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > meds you do a 25 % water change, and on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > instructions for adding new fish it says "see insert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for more information" check the insert if you had it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Well the directions say to add it to the tank when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > change after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > parasites, and requires a 20% water change after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > http://my.yahoo.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7227 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have some at home and she's right, it doesn't include anything about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water changes. I've used it without doing them (outside of my regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        maintenance schedule) with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 8, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Faithe wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > No insert just a blue bottle and nothing about water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > read the entire instruction pannel. after dosing it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > meds you do a 25 % water change, and on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > instructions for adding new fish it says "see insert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > for more information" check the insert if you had it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Well the directions say to add it to the tank when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > change after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > parasites, and requires a 20% water change after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Yahoo!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7228 From: Faithe Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ***Actually, for Adding New Fish there is NO suggestion to change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the water, but what it says under "As A Disease or Wound Treatment"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can do a 25% water change. Thats what I would probably use it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for, when and if I add new fish. I had to pull my glasses out to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        read that one lol.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have some at home and she's right, it doesn't include anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water changes. I've used it without doing them (outside of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maintenance schedule) with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Dec 8, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Faithe wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > No insert just a blue bottle and nothing about water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > read the entire instruction pannel. after dosing it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > meds you do a 25 % water change, and on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > instructions for adding new fish it says "see insert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for more information" check the insert if you had it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Well the directions say to add it to the tank when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > change after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > parasites, and requires a 20% water change after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > days usage, so it is not really needed to add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix (its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > All your favorites on one personal page – Try My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7229 From: Brad Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Best treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FYI, natural Sea Salt has iodine as well. The iodine has health
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        benifits and for those health reasons they started adding iodine to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mined salts to duplicate the benifits of Sea Salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Brad


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > actually, lack of iodine is a problem in humans. older generations
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > often suffered from "goiters" on the neck due to a lack of it in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > diet, which is why table salt is now iodized.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Dec 6, 2004, at 10:35 AM, paul helms wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wow! reall? duh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Steve <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > This doesn't make much sense. If you are not doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > regular water changes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > but continue to add salt, then the fish will die
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > from an excess of salt in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the water before the iodine can have any adverse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > effect on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Still, table salt is OK to use if nothing else is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > handy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@y...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 10:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] Best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > treatment for Ick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > iodine in large quantities can cause problems with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > animal, even humans, so if you do not do frequent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > water changes i would steer clear of the iodized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > paul
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7230 From: paul helms Date: 12/8/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: for Paul Re: Melafix Preventative Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the insert should be in the box, but the store may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pull it out of its retail box to sell it, i know we do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at times
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have some at home and she's right, it doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > include anything about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water changes. I've used it without doing them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (outside of my regular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maintenance schedule) with no problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > On Dec 8, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Faithe wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > No insert just a blue bottle and nothing about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > read the entire instruction pannel. after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dosing it as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > meds you do a 25 % water change, and on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > instructions for adding new fish it says "see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > insert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > for more information" check the insert if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Well the directions say to add it to the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > introducing new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish for 3 days, it says NOTHING about a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > change after.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > melafix is only an antibacterial, it does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > parasites, and requires a 20% water change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > three
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > days usage, so it is not really needed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > --- Faithe <faithe214@m...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > I do not have the luxury of an isolation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > after having some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > bad luck and realizing how unhealthy it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > fish at most pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > shops I decided to pick up some melafix
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (its
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > good to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > keep around
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > anyhow) and was thinking is it okay to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > suggest on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > bottle and treat for 3 days when you add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > the tank? As I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > am so paranoid to buy fish otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > > Faithe :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > ����� �����
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Try My
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7231 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: bristlenose with a will to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yesterday I decided to give my tank a really good vacum before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        leave for my holidays, so I removed all the rocks, wood etc from my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank. I checked each peice as I took it out (as I usually do) but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        apparently I managed to miss my big bristlenose (known as Bruce) who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was still on a peice of wood.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        He sat out in my front porch for an hour and 20 minutes - out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water - before I started to put the wood and rocks back in. I didnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        notice him until I had actually put the peice of wood into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and his tail which was just sticking out wiggled a little. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        actually thought he was dead and that it was just the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        movemement making his tail move, but this morning he is out on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bottom of the tank feeding with all the other fish much to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        surprise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        He had managed to get himself into a crevice in the wood, and keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        himself fairly wet. It is summer here, but fortunately yesterday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was quite cool, and raining so the wood did not dry out when it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        on the porch. We always said that Bruce had a will to live - he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        our sole remaining original tank occupant and I think after this he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will survive anything!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have put a dose of melafix in the water (mainly cause I couldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        think of what else to do). Should I do anything else for him, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just leave him be?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7232 From: paul helms Date: 12/9/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: bristlenose with a will to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        once again....melafix is an anti bacterial and does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not do anything to reduce stress or the like. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feel you need to do something, add a little stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        coat, other than that, i would leave him alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I decided to give my tank a really good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > vacum before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leave for my holidays, so I removed all the rocks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wood etc from my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. I checked each peice as I took it out (as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > usually do) but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > apparently I managed to miss my big bristlenose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (known as Bruce) who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was still on a peice of wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > He sat out in my front porch for an hour and 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minutes - out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water - before I started to put the wood and rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > back in. I didnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > notice him until I had actually put the peice of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wood into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and his tail which was just sticking out wiggled a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > actually thought he was dead and that it was just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > movemement making his tail move, but this morning he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is out on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bottom of the tank feeding with all the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > surprise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > He had managed to get himself into a crevice in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wood, and keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > himself fairly wet. It is summer here, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fortunately yesterday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was quite cool, and raining so the wood did not dry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out when it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the porch. We always said that Bruce had a will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to live - he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > our sole remaining original tank occupant and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think after this he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will survive anything!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have put a dose of melafix in the water (mainly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cause I couldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think of what else to do). Should I do anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > else for him, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just leave him be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7233 From: Steve Date: 12/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Axelrod pleads guilty to tax fraud
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Some charges dropped.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Read about it:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tinyurl.com/6rne8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Note: This post may contain misspellings, grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are natural to the process of writing, and will only add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7234 From: StarWolf Date: 12/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: False Siamese Algae Eaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, it seems that the "Chinese algae eaters" that I purchased are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        actually False Siamese Algae Eaters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I tried researching breeding habits, but it seems this is a much guarded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        secret of the breeder world or something, because I could not find any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        information.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here is what I have observed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two, one has a darker stripe and the other is lighter gray. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are both about 3 inches long now, and have been great community fish so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        far. They seem to do an awesome job with keeping the tank clean! Two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        days ago, I was given a 8 inch tall wide leaved plant, one of the leaves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is curled inward, suggesting it is not a mature leaf. The darker of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        two FSAE hid inside and seems to wiggle it's bottom once in a while. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        does not seem to want to leave the security of the leaf and we think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        may be female and laying eggs. The other one, goes and "checks" on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        darker one every now and then, however, I have not been able to view
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inside the curled leaf to see what is going on in there. Now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        everything I have read so far suggests that these have not been bred in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        captivity, however, I can not imagine they would pluck the babies out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their home environment and sell them for $3.00 each at the local pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        store if they weren't bred in a tank somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anyone have suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7235 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: False Siamese Algae Eaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Star,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are cyprinids. So if they lay eggs, don't expect them to care for the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eggs and fry. Besids, I think the way to breed them is very similar to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeding the red tailed sharks or the rainbow sharks by injecting a car
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hypophysis on the 3rd dorsal fin ray 2mm inside. I can't recall the exact
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        procedure, but this is a method used in the RTB to initiate spawning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are captive bred but in ponds and pools designed for keeping them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        rather then aquariums. They are just provided a natural habitat and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breed accordingly. When websites suggest that they have not been bred in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        captivity, they do not consider these pools and ponds as captive as they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        effectively providing them with their natural environment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: StarWolf [mailto:starbev@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 10 December 2004 10:07
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] False Siamese Algae Eaters


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, it seems that the "Chinese algae eaters" that I purchased are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        actually False Siamese Algae Eaters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I tried researching breeding habits, but it seems this is a much guarded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        secret of the breeder world or something, because I could not find any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        information.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        here is what I have observed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two, one has a darker stripe and the other is lighter gray. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are both about 3 inches long now, and have been great community fish so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        far. They seem to do an awesome job with keeping the tank clean! Two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        days ago, I was given a 8 inch tall wide leaved plant, one of the leaves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is curled inward, suggesting it is not a mature leaf. The darker of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        two FSAE hid inside and seems to wiggle it's bottom once in a while. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        does not seem to want to leave the security of the leaf and we think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        may be female and laying eggs. The other one, goes and "checks" on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        darker one every now and then, however, I have not been able to view
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inside the curled leaf to see what is going on in there. Now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        everything I have read so far suggests that these have not been bred in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        captivity, however, I can not imagine they would pluck the babies out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their home environment and sell them for $3.00 each at the local pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        store if they weren't bred in a tank somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anyone have suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ~Star





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7236 From: traceyhanson Date: 12/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: bristlenose with a will to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I added the melafix becuase he had a few scrapes etc from jamming
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        himself down in the crevice in the wood and I wanted to try and stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any infection etc before I go away. I realise that it doesnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        actually help with stress or anything - but looking at my original
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        post, the way I have worded it makes it sound like that is what I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was trying to use the melafix for. I didnt want to have to rely on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my housesitter to pick up any problem with him after I have gone and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        then try to dose him for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > once again....melafix is an anti bacterial and does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not do anything to reduce stress or the like. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feel you need to do something, add a little stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > coat, other than that, i would leave him alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Yesterday I decided to give my tank a really good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > vacum before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > leave for my holidays, so I removed all the rocks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wood etc from my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tank. I checked each peice as I took it out (as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > usually do) but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > apparently I managed to miss my big bristlenose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > (known as Bruce) who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > was still on a peice of wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > He sat out in my front porch for an hour and 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > minutes - out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > water - before I started to put the wood and rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > back in. I didnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > notice him until I had actually put the peice of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wood into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and his tail which was just sticking out wiggled a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > little. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > actually thought he was dead and that it was just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > movemement making his tail move, but this morning he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is out on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > bottom of the tank feeding with all the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > much to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > surprise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > He had managed to get himself into a crevice in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wood, and keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > himself fairly wet. It is summer here, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fortunately yesterday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > was quite cool, and raining so the wood did not dry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > out when it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > on the porch. We always said that Bruce had a will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to live - he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > our sole remaining original tank occupant and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > think after this he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > will survive anything!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have put a dose of melafix in the water (mainly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cause I couldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > think of what else to do). Should I do anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > else for him, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > just leave him be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7237 From: Elyse Date: 12/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: bristlenose with a will to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well said Paul I agree completely.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Remember folks, LESS is MORE!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AIM: ElyseRachel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Canine Castaway's Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.CanineCastaways.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.CanineCastaways.petfinder.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] bristlenose with a will to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        live


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        once again....melafix is an anti bacterial and does
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not do anything to reduce stress or the like. if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feel you need to do something, add a little stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        coat, other than that, i would leave him alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- traceyhanson <traceyhanson@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I decided to give my tank a really good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > vacum before I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leave for my holidays, so I removed all the rocks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wood etc from my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. I checked each peice as I took it out (as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > usually do) but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > apparently I managed to miss my big bristlenose
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (known as Bruce) who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was still on a peice of wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > He sat out in my front porch for an hour and 20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > minutes - out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water - before I started to put the wood and rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > back in. I didnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > notice him until I had actually put the peice of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wood into the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and his tail which was just sticking out wiggled a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > actually thought he was dead and that it was just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > movemement making his tail move, but this morning he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is out on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bottom of the tank feeding with all the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much to my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > surprise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > He had managed to get himself into a crevice in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wood, and keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > himself fairly wet. It is summer here, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fortunately yesterday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was quite cool, and raining so the wood did not dry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out when it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the porch. We always said that Bruce had a will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to live - he is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > our sole remaining original tank occupant and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think after this he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will survive anything!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have put a dose of melafix in the water (mainly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cause I couldnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think of what else to do). Should I do anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > else for him, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just leave him be?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tracey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7238 From: paul helms Date: 12/10/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: False Siamese Algae Eaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my suggestion is to watch out, in my experience once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the chinese algae eater reach 3-4 inches they begin to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get aggressive. i don't know if it is becaus ethere
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is not enough algae in tanks under 100 gallons for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them when they reach this size due to metabolism or if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it just their nature, but all of a sudden every one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that i have seen over the size of yours begins to nip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and latch oon and suck the slime coat right of off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other fish, resulting in bacterial infections, ick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ulcerations, etc. i would recommend trading them in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for smaller ones when they hit that size. i kow this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is not the type of advice or opinions that you were
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        looking for, just a friendly warning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- StarWolf <starbev@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, it seems that the "Chinese algae eaters" that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I purchased are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > actually False Siamese Algae Eaters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I tried researching breeding habits, but it seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this is a much guarded
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > secret of the breeder world or something, because I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could not find any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > information.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > here is what I have observed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have two, one has a darker stripe and the other is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lighter gray. They
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are both about 3 inches long now, and have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > great community fish so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > far. They seem to do an awesome job with keeping the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank clean! Two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > days ago, I was given a 8 inch tall wide leaved
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plant, one of the leaves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is curled inward, suggesting it is not a mature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leaf. The darker of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > two FSAE hid inside and seems to wiggle it's bottom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > once in a while. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > does not seem to want to leave the security of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > leaf and we think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > may be female and laying eggs. The other one, goes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and "checks" on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > darker one every now and then, however, I have not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been able to view
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inside the curled leaf to see what is going on in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there. Now,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > everything I have read so far suggests that these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have not been bred in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > captivity, however, I can not imagine they would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pluck the babies out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their home environment and sell them for $3.00 each
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at the local pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store if they weren't bred in a tank somewhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyone have suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ~Star
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7239 From: Steve Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: More on Axelrod's Plea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax return.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December 9.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Note: This post may contain misspellings, grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are natural to the process of writing, and will only add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7240 From: paul helms Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what happened to all the postings on here? have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gotten a couple in the past few days....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > return.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Note: This post may contain misspellings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are natural to the process of writing, and will only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7241 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: where's the posts?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My account quit getting messages through e-mail, so I haven't been posting.  I am getting them again now.  As for why others haven't been posted, I don't know why, but other groups have slowed down a lot.  Maybe they are all shopping?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what happened to all the postings on here?  have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gotten a couple in the past few days....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7242 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know anything about beta's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what happened to all the postings on here?  have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gotten a couple in the past few days....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Steve <steve@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > return.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Note: This post may contain misspellings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are natural to the process of writing, and will only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7243 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a betta myself and had one previously. What do you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know? I might be able to help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know anything about beta's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what happened to all the postings on here? have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gotten a couple in the past few days....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Steve <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > return.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Note: This post may contain misspellings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > are natural to the process of writing, and will only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Get unlimited calls to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Service.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7244 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is there any special things i should know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: wolf1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a betta myself and had one previously. What do you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know? I might be able to help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know anything about beta's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   what happened to all the postings on here?  have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   gotten a couple in the past few days....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   --- Steve <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > return.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > 9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > are natural to the process of writing, and will only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > add to the overall
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7245 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well the first thing is don't keep them in the vases with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        houseplants. I have been able to keep mine in a community tank. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just have to becareful of other fish attacking the bettas fins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anything else?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is there any special things i should know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a betta myself and had one previously. What do you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know? I might be able to help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > know anything about beta's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what happened to all the postings on here? have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > gotten a couple in the past few days....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- Steve <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > return.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Note: This post may contain misspellings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > are natural to the process of writing, and will only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7246 From: Gary Calhoun Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I keep my betta in a community tank also. The betta is peaceful and gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        along well with the others. A few years ago I had one that I nicknamed Jaws
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        because of his disposition. So, like people a lot depends on your betta's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        personality.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: <wolf1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well the first thing is don't keep them in the vases with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > houseplants. I have been able to keep mine in a community tank. You
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just have to becareful of other fish attacking the bettas fins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anything else?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> is there any special things i should know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> From: wolf1@o...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> I have a betta myself and had one previously. What do you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> know? I might be able to help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > know anything about beta's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > what happened to all the postings on here? have only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > gotten a couple in the past few days....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > --- Steve <steve@f...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > From the _Star-Ledger_ we have two stories on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > Axelrod's guilty plea to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > aiding and abetting the filing of a false tax
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > return.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > http://tinyurl.com/5yttu is a story from Wednesday
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > December 8, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > http://tinyurl.com/5hsft is from Thursday December
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > 9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > \\Steve//
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > Note: This post may contain misspellings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > grammatical errors, disorganized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > theme. These elements
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > are natural to the process of writing, and will only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > add to the overall
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > > beauty of the post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> ----------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Get unlimited calls to
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7247 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The main thing is to keep their temperature at or above 75°F, and 78 - 80° if you can.  Keep them away from fish that like to bite fins, or fish that look similar to female bettas (guppies).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is there any special things i should know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7248 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/12/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/12/2004 5:28:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, crcarnevale@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is there any special things i should know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Use a heater, he will live longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Water changes(treat for Chlorine-chloramines), a small filter would be a good idea.  If anyone tells you they can live off eating the root of a plant, don't believe them, they need Betta food, or other tropical fish food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did not catch your original email, what size tank or container do you have or are you considering for him?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Keep him seperate from other male Bettas.  A mirror or his reflection will give him all the excitement he will ever need.  If he is given a female companion, she may not survive, they are really really rough on females.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Keep his container out of direct sunlight(window sill).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7249 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: So when will the name change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I noticed that the home page says that the name will change soon.  I have a couple of questions.  When?  Will the url be changed, or just the title on the home page of the group?  Just wondering. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7250 From: paul helms Date: 12/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        why is it changing?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I noticed that the home page says that the name will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change soon. I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of questions. When? Will the url be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > changed, or just the title on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the home page of the group? Just wondering. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paradise gourami. I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2�, pH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel in spots, sponge filter.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7251 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If I remember right, it is changing because it currently specifies freshwater in the name, but is for all types of fish keeping. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        why is it changing?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7252 From: paul helms Date: 12/13/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If I remember right, it is changing because it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > currently specifies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > freshwater in the name, but is for all types of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > keeping.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > why is it changing?




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7253 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Feeding the guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How much is too much food? How much and how often should I be feeding these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6 little guppies and one baby molly? I've read and read. I feed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sparingly and make sure there is no food left. I feed a very few flakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around 4 times a day. Today they are acting like they are starving and zoom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up to the surface when I feed. But is that just because they are now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        settling in and are used to the fact it is dinner time? I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably such a dumb question but I'm scared to overfeed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7254 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Fish are like people, if you put food in front of them they will eat it.  That isn't always good, in fact it is bad.  It sounds to me like you are feeding enough, but at worst (and probably not) you are feeding too much.  I would suggest going like you are.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How much is too much food?  How much and how often should I be feeding these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6 little guppies and one baby molly?  I've read and read.  I feed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sparingly and make sure there is no food left.  I feed a very few flakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around 4 times a day.  Today they are acting like they are starving and zoom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        up to the surface when I feed.  But is that just because they are now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        settling in and are used to the fact it is dinner time?  I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        probably such a dumb question but I'm scared to overfeed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7255 From: paul helms Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i feed my baby guppies twice a day, and only enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that none hits the bottom, if there is no one to clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it up.fish are pigs and will eat as much as you give
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them as often as you give it (except bettas).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- P & D Denny <dennyzak@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > How much is too much food? How much and how often
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should I be feeding these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6 little guppies and one baby molly? I've read and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > read. I feed them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sparingly and make sure there is no food left. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feed a very few flakes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > around 4 times a day. Today they are acting like
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they are starving and zoom
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up to the surface when I feed. But is that just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > because they are now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > settling in and are used to the fact it is dinner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > time? I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > probably such a dumb question but I'm scared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > overfeed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --------------------~-->
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7256 From: Lyndsay Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Floating Algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My mum has a large fish tank at her work that used to have a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        turtle in it. The turle just got too large and so she sold him. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank is around 5 by 2 1/2 by 1 1/2 ft and when the turtle was in it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        after about a week, the tank was totally green. The algae wasn't on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the walls but actually in the water. What kind of algae was it? My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mum sold the turtle and I am talking her into putting tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into it. It can only go under a large window and bacause she works in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a school, mum can't have the curtains closed all the time. Are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any ways to keep the algae away?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lyndsay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7257 From: paul helms Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is a plastic decorative scenery available for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the back of the tank. you can use this to block the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sunlight from the tank by putting it on the back and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sides so that the front is the only viewable angle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it is about 1.50 a foot, so it is not that expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and it tapes on to the tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Lyndsay <littlelasgirl@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My mum has a large fish tank at her work that used
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to have a large
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > turtle in it. The turle just got too large and so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she sold him. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank is around 5 by 2 1/2 by 1 1/2 ft and when the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > turtle was in it,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after about a week, the tank was totally green. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > algae wasn't on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the walls but actually in the water. What kind of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > algae was it? My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mum sold the turtle and I am talking her into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > putting tropical fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > into it. It can only go under a large window and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bacause she works in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a school, mum can't have the curtains closed all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > time. Are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any ways to keep the algae away?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Lyndsay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7258 From: Aaron Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: So when will the name change?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, the group name, address and url etc... will change by the end
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the year. As seen on the top of the home page ->
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium · New group name coming soon->
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife", also recently 'hidden' in the subject line ->
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Membership will not be affected, so you will not have to re-join.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The current home page, archives, photos and files will remain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        intact.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Timed to start the New Year with a new title and focus. As Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mentioned, the current title/name is self limiting and I believe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife to be a more all inclusive name. The intention is to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        open up the group for discussion on saltwater and pond topics as so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        many members have experience beyond just freshwater aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, it serves a secondary purpose of shortening the subject line
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        by cutting the title down to only 11 letters long from more than 30
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        currently.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The current name remained in place as a direct result of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        following poll of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "What aspescts of the hobby intrest you the most? Is there a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        particular type of Aquatic Life that you like best? Please let us
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know your Favorite topics, if it is not in the list - please post it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to the group so we can get a better understanding of the General
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Intrests of the Members. Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Created by tropicalfishman on 4/28/2004"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The poll can be found here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium/surveys?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        id=1405371

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        After 359 votes, the top 2 most popular topics, or subjects of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        intrest, were:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Freshwater Aquariums 51 14.21%

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tropical Fish 48 13.37%


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However, as you can see, there are many other intrests among the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        members. Therefore it did not make sense to limit the discussion any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The title "Aquatic Life" is hinted at even in the poll and the name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reserved back in April of this year. Also, it is placed several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        times on the home page in the group description.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just in case anybody was wondering, the timing had nothing to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the new Bill Murray movie - "The Life Aquatic" which was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        released this past friday. (anybody seen it yet?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please note, the poll will remain open indefinately so that as the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        groups membership continues to grow, hopefully the poll will reflect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the current intrests of the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That being said, if you have not yet had a chance to vote, please do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thank you for your participation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Happy Holidays


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        p.s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is a new custom footer included in all the posts now:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Footer :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is an attempt to remind us to snip our posts when repling and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to try and elimate many inches of advertisment that must be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        otherwise scrolled thru.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks again



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------------------------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:42 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be AquaticLife ] So when will the name change?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I remember right, it is changing because it currently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        specifies freshwater in the name, but is for all types of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keeping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I noticed that the home page says that the name will change soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of questions. When? Will the url be changed, or just the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        title on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the home page of the group? Just wondering. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7259 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/14/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: FYI - LANCASTER, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just got back from a trip to Lancaster.  Stopped in That Fish Place.  They have really expanded their salt water department from the last time I was there.  Well worth a stop if you're in the area.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They also have a LARGE salt water "pond" in their main sales area.  Very interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7260 From: John Hawley Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Koi Club of the Air Streaming Radio Show Guest Andrew Goodwin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Coming up on January 12, 2005

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Call In & Speak with this Big Fish of KHV Research!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.koicluboftheair.org

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Andrew Goodwin, Ph.D. Interview


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Expertise:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dr. Goodwin is interested in all aspects of fish pathology and has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        published scientific papers in the areas of fish parasitology,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        virology, bacteriology, nutrition, neoplasia, toxicology,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pharmacology, reproduction, and inflammation. He oversees the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff Fish Disease Diagnostic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Laboratories that together are one of the busiest programs in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        country. He is an American Fisheries Society certified Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pathologist and Fish Health Inspector and also is active in the Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Health Section where he has recently been working with other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        scientists on new digital version of the FHS Blue Book including a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        comprehensive new inspection manual. He and his students attend and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        give presentations at regional, national, and international meetings
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7261 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Also, it serves a secondary purpose of shortening the subject line by cutting the title down to only 11 letters long from more than 30 currently." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Finally I will be able to read most of the subject line in incredimail! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Just in case anybody was wondering, the timing had nothing to do with the new Bill Murray movie - "The Life Aquatic" which was released this past friday. (anybody seen it yet?)"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I wonder if this is a story written by Dr. Axelrod?  I haven't seen it, but Bill Murray is usually pretty funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Now that was just plain smart! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7262 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Help!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did a 20% water change today. Added aquavital stress-protect and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquavital conditioner. Now my guppies have red gills. One female is acting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sick. What's happened? What can I do?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7263 From: alglea@aol.com Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Did you add something to take out the Chloramines?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7264 From: tedrups Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, alglea@a...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Did you add something to take out the Chloramines?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just realised I sent my reply direct to you and not the Group.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Didn't add anything being as our water is spring / rainwater. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        local fish guy advised also it wasn't needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can't do much now being as it's 12.35am here and hopefully if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are alive by morning I shall get in to the shop to find some rescue
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remedy. Hopefully.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7265 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Throw them out and buy something like stresscoat?  I have never heard of those two products, but it sounds like they weren't too effective at removing the chlorine/chloranimine.  Some of the water treatment products like these have been known to be full of ammonia, which could also be the problem.  I suggest testing ammonia and nitrite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.  I do not recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.  Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did a 20% water change today.  Added  aquavital stress-protect and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aquavital conditioner.  Now my guppies have red gills.  One female is acting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sick.  What's happened?  What can I do?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7266 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Added  aquavital stress-protect and aquavital conditioner"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Didn't add anything being as our water is spring / rainwater.  the local fish guy advised also it wasn't needed."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you are using spring/rainwater, why do you also use the other chemicals?  They are not needed.  The only chemical you need is a chlorine/chloranimin remover if you have those in your water, which you don't.  I suspect there was something in the water.  Just because it is spring water doesn't mean it is safe, and rainwater could have pollutants if you live down wind from a factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7267 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: home again and more issues.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i give up i am never going on a trip again.. each time i prepare immactly and come home to issues for different reasons.. so about 12 hours ago i came home to see from the darkness of the tank things seemed OK but i could see a lot of red so this am when i turned the light on... omg infestation of algae red crap.. and my hornwort died and well 2 fish missing and one dead frog.. pissed off... so i clean and clean the ornaments cause it was just nasty and then i am like i have to do a huge water change about 30% cause i had so much floating hornwort everywhere.. so then i noticed my flipping filter is not working.. i try and try nothing starts it... furious. it is less than a year old.. but i am like heck i wanted a bigger one anyway so i went and got a bigger one.. one for a 55 gallon it is awesome. love it.. anyhow it kinda doesnt fit but i crammed it in there jokinly but really ill have to trip some of the cover if i want to flip the top up later... so it is all cleaned out and the new filter is going and all of this cause the filter must have died like the day i left wasn t i lucky there was air im guessing from the plants the amazon sword that i have everywhere or maybe from the double air stones... something kept most of them alive.... so no more trips for me.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fish are like people, if you put food in front of them they will eat it.  That isn't always good, in fact it is bad.  It sounds to me like you are feeding enough, but at worst (and probably not) you are feeding too much.  I would suggest going like you are.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7268 From: tedrups Date: 12/15/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you are using spring/rainwater, why do you also use the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chemicals? They are not needed. The only chemical you need is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chlorine/chloranimin remover if you have those in your water, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you don
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > t. I suspect there was something in the water. Just because it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water doesn't mean it is safe, and rainwater could have pollutants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > live down wind from a factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I used the other chemicals on the advice of the only fish guy here on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the island. The water here is extremely hard, he advised these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chemicals would help and I didn't think that "Just because it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spring
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water doesn't mean it is safe,". As to factories? This is a tiny
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Greek island, we have no factories but more impoirtantly no-one to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        help me with my little fish. Also it means I am limited in what I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can buy immediately to remedy the situation and online shopping is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        great if you can wait for the mail, if in fact they deliver here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7269 From: P & D Denny Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have done a water test and all is fine. Fish man here thinks it would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        been due to a sudden temperature drop when I added the cooler, fresh water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Because they are eating, swimming and all else appears at this moment to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        normal, watch them until Saturday by which time he believes they will be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        back to normal. Obviously keep an eye on them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        He also advises that because there are only 7 little guys in a 65l tank, a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water change once a month is fine as he believes the original tank water is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better than a twice a month water change - for that amount of fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are absolutely zero additives to water here as it comes from water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tables high in the mountains - no rivers here. The water is tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regularly by the Health Authorities, naturally, as it's what all we humans
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        live on - never mind the fish. The humans have a problem with kidney /
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallstones here because of the extreme hardness. I only drink bottled
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Would anyone agree with / dispute this advice?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Denise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Greece)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7270 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How often should you change the water in a small tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7271 From: tonycllr Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7272 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sounds like there's a very good chance that they were completely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        consumed, and it's likely you'll be missing more, if not all of them,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in the coming days.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 16, 2004, at 6:11 PM, tonycllr wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clown loach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyone any ideas ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7273 From: Elyse Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am sure they were eaten entirely.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FYI ... Both Tiger Barbs and Angels are Semi-Aggressive fish. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        considered the best mix with truly peaceful fish like Neons.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AIM: ElyseRachel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Canine Castaway's Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.CanineCastaways.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.CanineCastaways.petfinder.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: tonycllr [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ] vanishing fish !!!




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony











                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7274 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Stressed endler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a female pregnant endler tonight I noticed her staying on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        side of the breeder net (housing babies) looking stressed. Could she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just be in labor is is something else maybe wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7275 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What goof told you an angel fish, barbs, and silver sharks were peaceful community fish?  I don't usually call people such names on-line, but the person who sold you those fish would probably buy ocean-front property in Arizona!  There is no doubt that they won't last long in a 30 gallon tank, take them back quickly.  I mean all of them.  Then study a while on your own at a library with books on paper.  Don't go back to that store either.  I can't believe they let you out of the store with those fish for that tank.  I can understand you buying them, new fish keepers do stuff like that (I sure know I did!), but the store really should know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7276 From: Steve Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If they were small neons, I'd check the bellies of the angel fish, else the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        silver shark bellies are handy for hiding missing neons. Neons and angels do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not mix. I'd also say that the tiger barbs may like to nip at the extensions
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the angels fins. Not a good mix at all. As Patrick mentioned, you need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do some serious research before you do anything else with the tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seriously consider which fish you wish to keep, then get other fish that are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        compatible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: tonycllr [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] vanishing fish !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7277 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well i have had the same issue that and neon tetra disease.. i refuse to buy another however i do love them i just cant keep them.. i left for vacation with 3 i now have 1.. all by himself... i did the same cleaned up and down and even have a new filter.. no sign.. i think the fact that they are so small that they just kinda get picked at eaten and end up decomposed.. who knows... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound weird but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7278 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what experienced fish keeper would keep tiger barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with angels.........the tiger will torment the angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        too eventually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Elyse <elyse@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am sure they were eaten entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FYI ... Both Tiger Barbs and Angels are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Semi-Aggressive fish. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > considered the best mix with truly peaceful fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like Neons.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Canine Castaway's Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > www.CanineCastaways.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > www.CanineCastaways.petfinder.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: tonycllr [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be AquaticLife
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ] vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nemo) Nothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clown loach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyone any ideas ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7279 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nothing listed, except neons, are peaceful.. they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        all semi aggressive. usually teh adolescent angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are fine with neons
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- tonycllr <tonycllr@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nemo) Nothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clown loach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyone any ideas ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7280 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        always partial...frequency depends on amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > How often should you change the water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7281 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        twice a day?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > always partial...frequency depends on amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> How often should you change the water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >> or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7282 From: paul helms Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish need only to eat once a day, but if twice a day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        makes you feel better, make sure it is small amounts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generally fish foods will tell you to feed way more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than is necessary. in fact most aquarists that i know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only feed 5 days a week, skipping every 3rd day or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you are feeding twice a day with a non filtered
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank, i would do a 20% change weekly to prevent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > twice a day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > always partial...frequency depends on amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> How often should you change the water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > All your favorites on one personal page - Try My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > please delete this line and everything below it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7283 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/16/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Paul, It can be the other way round as well if the angels are aggressive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Bottom line is that I don't consider either as a good community fish too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 17 December 2004 05:34
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] vanishing fish !!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what experienced fish keeper would keep tiger barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with angels.........the tiger will torment the angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        too eventually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Elyse <elyse@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am sure they were eaten entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FYI ... Both Tiger Barbs and Angels are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Semi-Aggressive fish. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > considered the best mix with truly peaceful fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like Neons.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Canine Castaway's Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > www.CanineCastaways.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > www.CanineCastaways.petfinder.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: tonycllr [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be AquaticLife
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ] vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nemo) Nothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clown loach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyone any ideas ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7284 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Paul, It can be the other way round as well if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > angels are aggressive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Bottom line is that I don't consider either as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > good community fish too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: 17 December 2004 05:34
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what experienced fish keeper would keep tiger barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with angels.........the tiger will torment the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > angels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > too eventually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- Elyse <elyse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I am sure they were eaten entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > FYI ... Both Tiger Barbs and Angels are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Semi-Aggressive fish. Not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > considered the best mix with truly peaceful fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > like Neons.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Elyse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > elyse@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > AIM: ElyseRachel
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Canine Castaway's Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > www.CanineCastaways.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > www.CanineCastaways.petfinder.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The Sarasota Chihuahua Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarasotaChihuahua/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > The Tropical Fish Connection:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TropicalFishConnection/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: tonycllr [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > name soon to be AquaticLife
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ] vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nemo) Nothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > clown loach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Anyone any ideas ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > please delete this line and everything below it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7285 From: Aranel Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: cory cat eggs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This morning while I was feeding my community tank I noticed small white eggs on the walls of the aquarium. The only egg laying fish I have in this tank (I think) are the cory cats and gouramis. The others are mollies. I did have a male betta in there, but he died of old age this past week. (He was four years old.) Last night I had done a water change, and then the temperature dropped pretty low last night. I know that when corys spawn in the wild, it has to do with dropping temperatures right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now to my question: Should I move the gouramis and mollies to a different tank for a while? I would really love for some of these eggs to survive, but I haven't a clue how to take care of them. Please help me!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Ara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7286 From: Tony Collier Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the advice everyone, lesson learned !

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this weekend, does anyone have any recommendations?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would also like to start planting my tank, what’s the best reading material on that subject?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What goof told you an angel fish, barbs, and silver sharks were peaceful community fish?  I don't usually call people such names on-line, but the person who sold you those fish would probably buy ocean-front property in Arizona!  There is no doubt that they won't last long in a 30 gallon tank, take them back quickly.  I mean all of them.  Then study a while on your own at a library with books on paper.  Don't go back to that store either.  I can't believe they let you out of the store with those fish for that tank.  I can understand you buying them, new fish keepers do stuff like that (I sure know I did!), but the store really should know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7287 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if they are cori eggs, the female that laid them will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stay close and defend them, so there is no need to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remove the cori's, u the gouramis may try to eat them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they typically spawn when the temperature comes up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Aranel <aranel@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This morning while I was feeding my community tank I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > noticed small white
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eggs on the walls of the aquarium. The only egg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > laying fish I have in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this tank (I think) are the cory cats and gouramis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The others are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mollies. I did have a male betta in there, but he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > died of old age this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > past week. (He was four years old.) Last night I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > done a water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > change, and then the temperature dropped pretty low
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > last night. I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that when corys spawn in the wild, it has to do with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dropping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > temperatures right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Now to my question: Should I move the gouramis and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mollies to a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > different tank for a while? I would really love for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some of these eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to survive, but I haven't a clue how to take care of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them. Please help me!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Ara
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7288 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make sure you have at least2 watts of light per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon, most tanks do not come with it standard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Tony Collier <tonycllr@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks for the advice everyone, lesson learned !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weekend, does anyone have any recommendations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I would also like to start planting my tank, what�s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the best reading material on that subject?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@...> wrote: What goof
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > told you an angel fish, barbs, and silver sharks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > were peaceful community fish? I don't usually call
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > people such names on-line, but the person who sold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you those fish would probably buy ocean-front
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > property in Arizona! There is no doubt that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > won't last long in a 30 gallon tank, take them back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > quickly. I mean all of them. Then study a while on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your own at a library with books on paper. Don't go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > back to that store either. I can't believe they let
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you out of the store with those fish for that tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I can understand you buying them, new fish keepers
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do stuff like that (I sure know I did!), but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store really should know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nemo) Nothing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > clown loach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Anyone any ideas ????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tony
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7289 From: joequality1980 Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you mean changing the water, then twice a day is a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ridiculous. A real small betta bowl (or cup, more likely) requires
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        maybe once a week or so. Basically if it looks too dirty, change the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > twice a day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > always partial...frequency depends on amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> How often should you change the water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >> or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > please delete this line and everything below it when replying,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7290 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 9:01:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, tonycllr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this weekend, does anyone have any recommendations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, chain stores suck.  THe barnes and noble carry almost no fish books as well as Borders.  WHat they do carry is usually "your first aquarium"   Fish for dummies and maybe the Barrons Books.  THese are great if you are just starting out and need to know how to keep from killing off your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you have Local Fish Store?  They might be the best place to start.  Or online retailers.   WWW.ABE.com  and I forgot you can have the chain stores order a book for you.  WWW.Amazon.comWWW.Half.com has a a lot in stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just checked www.Overstock.com and they have auctions as well as buy it now features, and they list Dr. Axelrod's Atlas of Freshwater Aquarium fishes for $61.74 instead of reatil $99.05 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WWW.cichlidpress.com I think this is Ad Konings website.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7291 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: vanishing fish !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What goof told you an angel fish, barbs, and silver sharks were peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community fish?  I don't usually call people such names on-line, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        person who sold you those fish would probably buy ocean-front property in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Arizona!  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????  You mean what I bought from Fred Sanford. is worthless ???????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7292 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Digest Number 531 - VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/04 3:15:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don't go back to that store either.  I can't believe they let you out of the store with those fish for that tank.  I can understand you buying them, new fish keepers do stuff like that (I sure know I did!), but the store really should know better.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        QUESTION:  Do we expect all lfs employees to know exactly what a customer is going to do with purchased fish ?????????  From what I've read, quite a few members of this group have several tanks.  The employee is supposed to be psychic and know you plan on putting noncompatible fish in the same tank ??????  Agreed, the customer should ask if they are not sure, but let's not blame the store 100 %.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7293 From: arch1574 Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: stressed Endler female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't separate my preggers "Endler's livebearer" females from my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other fish (tons more Endlers and five golden White Clouds) because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nobody in the tank ever bothers the fry. Every one that has ever been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        born in the tank is still in the tank, except for three that I fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to my Convicts in my other tank. (Sorry, but even though it is still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stable now, my ten gallon tank surely can't support 50 or 60 fish for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much longer!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In what way does she appear stressed? They are very hardy fish. Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she just wants to be with her friends!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7294 From: arch1574 Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I believe they were answering a question about how often they feed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their fish, and wanting to know how often they should change their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water under those circumstances.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        InFreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "joequality1980"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <crazy.joe.walcek@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if you mean changing the water, then twice a day is a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ridiculous. A real small betta bowl (or cup, more likely) requires
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maybe once a week or so. Basically if it looks too dirty, change
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > twice a day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To: <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > always partial...frequency depends on amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> How often should you change the water in a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > please delete this line and everything below it when replying,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7295 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I disagree with the 2 watt per gallon for plants.  I have less than one watt and my plants grow well.  But if you want a really well-planted tank, then I would agree. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        make sure you have at least2 watts of light per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon, most tanks do not come with it standard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7296 From: Tony Collier Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am in the UK, here we have bookshops here  which DO carry a wide range of titles.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Deenerz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 9:01:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, tonycllr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this weekend, does anyone have any recommendations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, chain stores suck.  THe barnes and noble carry almost no fish books as well as Borders.  WHat they do carry is usually "your first aquarium"   Fish for dummies and maybe the Barrons Books.  THese are great if you are just starting out and need to know how to keep from killing off your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you have Local Fish Store?  They might be the best place to start.  Or online retailers.   WWW.ABE.com  and I forgot you can have the chain stores order a book for you.  WWW.Amazon.comWWW.Half.com has a a lot in stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just checked www.Overstock.com and they have auctions as well as buy it now features, and they list Dr. Axelrod's Atlas of Freshwater Aquarium fishes for $61.74 instead of reatil $99.05 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WWW.cichlidpress.com I think this is Ad Konings website.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7297 From: Matt Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Any Experience with Aquael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have just seen this nice equipment from Poland and wonder if there is any hands on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        experience with it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.aquaelusa.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7298 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do blame the worker 100%.  If a store worker doesn't know the person, they should ask if they have kept fish long.  Then they can go from there.  That is what you call a "good worker", one that works! :)  Maybe I expect too much from people?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I guess the proper thing to do is tell the store manager/owner and judge their actions.  If the worker is supported by the manager, then walk out.  If the manager apologizes, give them another chance.  If the guy that sold the fish was the manager, make your own decision...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        QUESTION:  Do we expect all lfs employees to know exactly what a customer is going to do with purchased fish ?????????  From what I've read, quite a few members of this group have several tanks.  The employee is supposed to be psychic and know you plan on putting noncompatible fish in the same tank ??????  Agreed, the customer should ask if they are not sure, but let's not blame the store 100 %.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7299 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People who keep bettas in cups should be locked in a closet.  Those who keep their betta in cups and change their water once a week should be locked in the trunk of a geo metro!  Fish stores and breeders are exempt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you mean changing the water, then twice a day is a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ridiculous. A real small betta bowl (or cup, more likely) requires
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        maybe once a week or so. Basically if it looks too dirty, change the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7300 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What urks me is when they claim to know things.. And then you hear them telling or selling other customers who know no better things that are totally incorrectly.... To me that is the worst cause those fish are most lilkly going to die and they are just selling to sell... I agree if the worker doesnt know they should ask for help from someone else.. or let you know where you can get help that is reliable... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I do blame the worker 100%.  If a store worker doesn't know the person, they should ask if they have kept fish long.  Then they can go from there.  That is what you call a "good worker", one that works! :)  Maybe I expect too much from people?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I guess the proper thing to do is tell the store manager/owner and judge their actions.  If the worker is supported by the manager, then walk out.  If the manager apologizes, give them another chance.  If the guy that sold the fish was the manager, make your own decision...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7301 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 2:27:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, tonycllr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am in the UK, here we have bookshops here  which DO carry a wide range of titles.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You sound much better off in that area than here.  Here (U.S.) many of the independant shops have gone under since the chain stores have forced them out.  I try to purchase from used book stores as much as possible, not only because it saves me a bunch, but most of the money goes to the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7302 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Too add to that I think ppl that buy them and keep them like that and don't do any research on what they are purchasing need to be locked down as well... its like would you buy a dog and not know how to care for it.. NO.. then why is a fish OK.. just cause you see a pretty fish in a cup doesnt mean you have to buy it.. and for gosh sakes if you want it try educating yourself on how to care for it... its not like the fish wont be there tom, next week or in a few months.. then maybe ppl wouldn't be panicking on how to give basic care like feeding and water changes... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        People who keep bettas in cups should be locked in a closet.  Those who keep their betta in cups and change their water once a week should be locked in the trunk of a geo metro!  Fish stores and breeders are exempt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7303 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I suggest ebay or online stores for the books rather then local stores. I am in the UK too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Tony Collier [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 17 December 2004 22:05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] van...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am in the UK , here we have bookshops here  which DO carry a wide range of titles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 9:01:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, tonycllr@... writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this weekend, does anyone have any recommendations?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, chain stores suck.  THe barnes and noble carry almost no fish books as well as Borders.  WHat they do carry is usually "your first aquarium"   Fish for dummies and maybe the Barrons Books.  THese are great if you are just starting out and need to know how to keep from killing off your tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you have Local Fish Store?  They might be the best place to start.  Or online retailers.   WWW.ABE.com  and I forgot you can have the chain stores order a book for you.  WWW.Amazon.comWWW.Half.com has a a lot in stock.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just checked www.Overstock.com and they have auctions as well as buy it now features, and they list Dr. Axelrod's Atlas of Freshwater Aquarium fishes for $61.74 instead of reatil $99.05 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        WWW.cichlidpress.com I think this is Ad Konings website.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7304 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: what is a PACO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i heard it is a fish it is kept with  chichlid.. does anyone have a pic or know what it is.. i have search the Internet and all i am getting is French stuff lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7305 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 3:45:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i heard it is a fish it is kept with  chichlid.. does anyone have a pic or know what it is.. i have search the Internet and all i am getting is French stuff lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I may be wrong, but I think you are reffering to a PACU, and they get HUGE!  You would need a two hundred gallon tank to accomodate him and stainless steel heater as they swim rather violent into solid objects when spooked.  And they grow really fast too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7306 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think it means Pacu. It’s a charchin that looks like a piranha and grows big. Voracious with plants though. Search for pacu fish and you will get it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 17 December 2004 23:43
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] what is a PACO.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i heard it is a fish it is kept with  chichlid.. does anyone have a pic or know what it is.. i have search the Internet and all i am getting is French stuff lol Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7307 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        interesting.. well this lady is offering her tank to me 50 gallons.. with one of them and a chichlid... which would be perfect for the classroom but she says she has kept the tank without a heater... so she doesnt have one to offer me... so i was thinking i could always give the fish to the pet store right and just buy some community fish..well actually they guy i know that has that arowda will have that tank free cause he created a new one for the arowanda. and that is like a 200 gallon ...  i mean i don't want to get myself in a bind... and i have no clue why she is getting rid of all her fish stuff... are they like rare or something... and i though chichlids used heaters.. im thinking a steal heater is giogn to be spendy... what do you think... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i heard it is a fish it is kept with  chichlid.. does anyone have a pic or know what it is.. i have search the Internet and all i am getting is French stuff lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I may be wrong, but I think you are reffering to a PACU, and they get HUGE!  You would need a two hundred gallon tank to accomodate him and stainless steel heater as they swim rather violent into solid objects when spooked.  And they grow really fast too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7308 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh yea I got it now.. wow what a monster.. and she has it in a 50 gallon it says on this one web site only suitable in public aquariums min of 1000 gallons lol... yikes.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think it means Pacu. It’s a charchin that looks like a piranha and grows big. Voracious with plants though. Search for pacu fish and you will get it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7309 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is a fair idea of how big it grows to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.findesemanatv.com.ar/pacu.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is still not its full potential.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 18 December 2004 00:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] wha...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh yea I got it now.. wow what a monster.. and she has it in a 50 gallon it says on this one web site only suitable in public aquariums min of 1000 gallons lol... yikes.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think it means Pacu. It’s a charchin that looks like a piranha and grows big. Voracious with plants though. Search for pacu fish and you will get it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7310 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: SOMETHING DIFFERENT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Picked this up from a computer site.  It's a Goldfish screensaver.  Check it out.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://store.worldstart.com/customer/product.php?productid=17864
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7311 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        omg your so not serious are you.. do ppl like eat them then.. wow.. yikes.. i am staying clear of that drama lol Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is a fair idea of how big it grows to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.findesemanatv.com.ar/pacu.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is still not its full potential.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7312 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 5:03:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        omg your so not serious are you.. do ppl like eat them then.. wow.. yikes.. i am staying clear of that drama lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, they do eat them.  If I recall it is a  staple in the diet of those that live near them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7313 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 4:19:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        im thinking a steal heater is giogn to be spendy... what do you think... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They can be, if you do not need a steel one they might be cheaper.  An Ebo Jaeger would last the longest of the glass ones.  You should only need a steel one if you have fish that might smack into it rally hard and shatter a glass one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7314 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, mike you were the one that said for a PACU I would need a steel heater cause it might pounce into it.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        im thinking a steal heater is giogn to be spendy... what do you think... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They can be, if you do not need a steel one they might be cheaper.  An Ebo Jaeger would last the longest of the glass ones.  You should only need a steel one if you have fish that might smack into it rally hard and shatter a glass one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7315 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Without any discrimination.. that is a lot of meat and hence is a good food fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 18 December 2004 01:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] wha...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        omg your so not serious are you.. do ppl like eat them then.. wow.. yikes.. i am staying clear of that drama lol Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is a fair idea of how big it grows to

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.findesemanatv.com.ar/pacu.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this is still not its full potential.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7316 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 5:19:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, mike you were the one that said for a PACU I would need a steel heater cause it might pounce into it.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        True I did, but I missed it when I read a newer posting where you talked about the cichlid.  I though you were only going for the cichlid.  My mistake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7317 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow I mean ill eat salmon or halibut.. But I just have never thought about the fish I keep as food... I mean in all seriousness do ppl like breed fish to like pull out of the tank and eat for dinner.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Without any discrimination.. that is a lot of meat and hence is a good food fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7318 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no prob.. no i have to take all or none.. but i haven't heard back from her so who knows.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, mike you were the one that said for a PACU I would need a steel heater cause it might pounce into it.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        True I did, but I missed it when I read a newer posting where you talked about the cichlid.  I though you were only going for the cichlid.  My mistake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7319 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no, you don't want to eat anything from your tank once
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it has been fed processed fish food, the chemicals in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them are really bad for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Wow I mean ill eat salmon or halibut.. But I just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have never thought about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish I keep as food... I mean in all seriousness
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do ppl like breed fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like pull out of the tank and eat for dinner..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Without any discrimination.. that is a lot of meat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and hence is a good food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7320 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have seena 26 incher in a tank, and heard about 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        footers in the wild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This is a fair idea of how big it grows to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.findesemanatv.com.ar/pacu.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this is still not its full potential.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: 18 December 2004 00:20
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Oh yea I got it now.. wow what a monster.. and she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > has it in a 50 gallon it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > says on this one web site only suitable in public
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aquariums min of 1000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallons lol... yikes.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think it means Pacu. It's a charchin that looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like a piranha and grows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > big. Voracious with plants though. Search for pacu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish and you will get it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replying, thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7321 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pacu meat is red, like wild trout and salmon, and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do eat them as they grow well over 2 feet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 12/17/2004 5:03:28 PM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > omg your so not serious are you.. do ppl like eat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them then.. wow.. yikes..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i am staying clear of that drama lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yes, they do eat them. If I recall it is a staple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in the diet of those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that live near them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7322 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right on....many people get offended when questioned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about their abilities or their experience/knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 12/17/04 3:15:34 PM Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Don't go back to that store either. I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > believe they let you out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the store with those fish for that tank. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > understand you buying them, new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish keepers do stuff like that (I sure know I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > did!), but the store really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > should know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > QUESTION: Do we expect all lfs employees to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exactly what a customer is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > going to do with purchased fish ????????? From what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've read, quite a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > members of this group have several tanks. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > employee is supposed to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > psychic and know you plan on putting noncompatible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish in the same tank ??????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Agreed, the customer should ask if they are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure, but let's not blame the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store 100 %.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7323 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 watts was a generalization meant to scare away
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people who may buy plants without researching them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first, and killing off their whole tank with rotting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plants. there are many plants that do fine with 1/2 a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watt per gallon, like elodia, but there are a lot out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there that require higher out puts lights, and few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        stores will identify which is which. if the person is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        willing to buy the fixture to be safe for all plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        then you can trust they will check out the plants
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I disagree with the 2 watt per gallon for plants. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have less than one watt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and my plants grow well. But if you want a really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well-planted tank, then I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel, Regent 10-15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > make sure you have at least2 watts of light per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallon, most tanks do not come with it standard.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7324 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        don't confuse the looks with water quality...it can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crystal clear and toxic enough to burn a bettas gills,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but hat is beside the point, we were talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- joequality1980 <crazy.joe.walcek@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if you mean changing the water, then twice a day is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ridiculous. A real small betta bowl (or cup, more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > likely) requires
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > maybe once a week or so. Basically if it looks too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dirty, change the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > twice a day?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: "paul helms" <wtfmorlok@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > always partial...frequency depends on amount of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > feeding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@g...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> How often should you change the water in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> tank super small?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> Should I do partial water changes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >> or all for my beta?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > All your favorites on one personal page - Try My
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > please delete this line and everything below it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when replying,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7325 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from poland?!?!?!? are you sure you wnat to stick your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hand in a tank running one of those products? make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure you are not grounded...lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Matt <mattnaiva@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have just seen this nice equipment from Poland and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wonder if there is any hands on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > experience with it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.aquaelusa.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7326 From: Lyndsay Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: 15 litre
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is a 15 litre tank suitable for a school of 10 or so Neon Tetras? If
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so, could I add a few fish to keep algae down?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7327 From: Jeff Schultz Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        db1rdman~ I totally disagree with your statement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that it is the consumer�s responsibility to inform a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salesperson of their needs. The sales person needs to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        qualify the customer. First, by greeting them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        welcoming them. Secondly, by asking them pertinent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        questions i.e. what fish they are keeping presently,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        how many tanks, what size tanks, water parameters and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        many others. Last and not least, staying in the area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with the customer so they don't have to walk to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        front of the store to talk to someone. I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        talking about a sales person jumping all over a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customer some customers hate that. I am talking about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        being a professional sales person.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just my two cents,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jeff Schultz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ccfireems@...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --------------------~-->
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/ctpplB/TM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > There are 25 messages in this issue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Topics in this digest:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1. Re: van...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Deenerz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2. VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3. Digest Number 531 - VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 4. stressed Endler female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "arch1574" <arch1574@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 5. Re: question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "arch1574" <arch1574@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6. Re: vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 7. Re: van...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Tony Collier <tonycllr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 8. Any Experience with Aquael
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Matt" <mattnaiva@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 9. Re: VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10. Re: question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 11. Re: VAN...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 12. Re: van...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Deenerz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 13. Re: que...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 14. RE: van...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Nimish Mathur"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <nimmat4@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 15. what is a PACO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 16. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Deenerz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 17. RE: what is a PACO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Nimish Mathur"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <nimmat4@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 18. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 19. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 20. RE: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Nimish Mathur"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <nimmat4@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 21. SOMETHING DIFFERENT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 22. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 23. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Deenerz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 24. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Deenerz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 25. Re: wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:43:44 EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: Deenerz@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: van...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 12/17/2004 9:01:15 AM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tonycllr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > weekend, does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any recommendations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yes, chain stores suck. THe barnes and noble carry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > almost no fish books as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well as Borders. WHat they do carry is usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "your first aquarium" Fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for dummies and maybe the Barrons Books. THese are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > great if you are just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > starting out and need to know how to keep from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > killing off your tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you have Local Fish Store? They might be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > best place to start. Or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > online retailers. _WWW.ABE.com_
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (http://www.ABE.com) and I forgot you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have the chain stores order a book for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _WWW.Amazon.com_
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (http://www.Amazon.com) , _WWW.Half.com_
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (http://www.Half.com) has a a lot in stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I just checked _www.Overstock.com_
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (http://www.Overstock.com) and they have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > auctions as well as buy it now features, and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > list Dr. Axelrod's Atlas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of Freshwater Aquarium fishes for $61.74 instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reatil $99.05
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _WWW.cichlidpress.com_ (http://www.cichlidpress.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think this is Ad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Konings website.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [This message contained attachments]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:23:21 EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: vanishing fish !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What goof told you an angel fish, barbs, and silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sharks were peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > community fish? I don't usually call people such
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > names on-line, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > person who sold you those fish would probably buy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ocean-front property in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Arizona!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > WHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????? You mean what I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bought from Fred Sanford. is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worthless ???????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [This message contained attachments]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:32:01 EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: DB1RDMAN@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Digest Number 531 - VANISHING FISH
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 12/17/04 3:15:34 PM Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Don't go back to that store either. I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > believe they let you out of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the store with those fish for that tank. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > understand you buying them, new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish keepers do stuff like that (I sure know I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > did!), but the store really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > should know better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > QUESTION: Do we expect all lfs employees to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exactly what a customer is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > going to do with purchased fish ????????? From what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've read, quite a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > members of this group have several tanks. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > employee is supposed to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > psychic and know you plan on putting noncompatible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish in the same tank ??????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Agreed, the customer should ask if they are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure, but let's not blame the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store 100 %.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [This message contained attachments]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Message: 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:56:51 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: "arch1574" <arch1574@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: stressed Endler female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        === message truncated ===




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7328 From: Steve Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you can find it (look in the used book stores) a copy of Innes 19th
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Edition, revised is a good choice. The title is _Exotic Aquarium Fishes_. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is a bit dated now, but still has good solid advice in it. I own several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        editions, and this one is, IMHO, the best.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Baensch _Aquarium Atlas_ is a good book also. Start with Vol. 1, and, if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you stay with fish, you can get others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any of the KW series of books, put out by TFH are a quick read, contain some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good information, and are cheap. They are know as KW books because their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        catalog numbers all start with KW.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Barron's publishes some good books as well, at an inexpensive price.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are other good books out there as well. I haven't yet looked to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what others are recommending.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: Tony Collier [mailto:tonycllr@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 5:41 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] vanishing fish !!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the advice everyone, lesson learned !
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I plan to go shopping for Fish keeping books this weekend, does anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any recommendations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would also like to start planting my tank, what's the best reading
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        material on that subject?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Patrick, The American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What goof told you an angel fish, barbs, and silver sharks were peaceful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        community fish? I don't usually call people such names on-line, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        person who sold you those fish would probably buy ocean-front property in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Arizona! There is no doubt that they won't last long in a 30 gallon tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        take them back quickly. I mean all of them. Then study a while on your own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at a library with books on paper. Don't go back to that store either. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can't believe they let you out of the store with those fish for that tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can understand you buying them, new fish keepers do stuff like that (I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure know I did!), but the store really should know better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This might sound wierd but i have lost 4 neon tetras. Last night I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        had 9, now there are only 5. I have checked under all the rocks, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        even dismantled the filter ( i have seen finding Nemo) Nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 150 litre tank with a hood, All the other fish in the tank are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peaceful comunity fish, angels, tiger barbs, silver sharks and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clown loach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone any ideas ????

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tony




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks






                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7329 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About a year ago, I bought 2 red bellied pacus at Petco. The sales person told me they grew to be about 4 inches. In a month they grew 4 inches. I then realized I had made a mistake. I traded them to the lfs for a pair of jack dempseys. They were the fastest growing fish I ever owned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dorothy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Deenerz@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 3:45:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i heard it is a fish it is kept with  chichlid.. does anyone have a pic or know what it is.. i have search the Internet and all i am getting is French stuff lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I may be wrong, but I think you are reffering to a PACU, and they get HUGE!  You would need a two hundred gallon tank to accomodate him and stainless steel heater as they swim rather violent into solid objects when spooked.  And they grow really fast too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7330 From: julie_hash Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: pacu
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My husband & I bought a pacu & an oscar about 6 months ago. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guy told us that they didn't gorw that big... boy was he wrong! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pacu is now about 10 inches, & the oscar is about 4 inches. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spent months stressing about what to do with the pacu. We are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        attached to the little (big) guy. LFS doesn't want it. Says we never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should've bought it in the 1st place. Hoping to build a 'pond' inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mom's greenhouse... Don't get yourself into that kind of trouble!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, dorothy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wheeler <duchess562000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About a year ago, I bought 2 red bellied pacus at Petco. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        person told me they grew to be about 4 inches. In a month they grew 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inches.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7331 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Seriously, though, if it is electrical equipment from Poland, make sure it has the right style plugs.  They do strange things with the current and plugs over in Europe.  Plugs are not standardized world-wide, and some use 220 in place of 110 like we use in the US.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N., who seems a little ethnocentric tonight. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from poland?!?!?!? are you sure you wnat to stick your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hand in a tank running one of those products? make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sure you are not grounded...lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Matt <mattnaiva@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have just seen this nice equipment from Poland and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wonder if there is any hands on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > experience with it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.aquaelusa.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7332 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yea this lady says she hasn't done anything to the tank and that it doesnt even have a heater.. im thinking that the fish is way outgrown the 50 gallons.. but i think it is way more trouble that i can go to.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About a year ago, I bought 2 red bellied pacus at Petco. The sales person told me they grew to be about 4 inches. In a month they grew 4 inches. I then realized I had made a mistake. I traded them to the lfs for a pair of jack dempseys. They were the fastest growing fish I ever owned!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dorothy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7333 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks i appreciate the help... im glad i really looked into this before jumping in... what am i talking about i always over look into things lol Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My husband & I bought a pacu & an oscar about 6 months ago. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guy told us that they didn't gorw that big... boy was he wrong! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pacu is now about 10 inches, & the oscar is about 4 inches. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spent months stressing about what to do with the pacu. We are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        attached to the little (big) guy.  LFS doesn't want it. Says we never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should've bought it in the 1st place. Hoping to build a 'pond' inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mom's greenhouse...  Don't get yourself into that kind of trouble!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7334 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 5:43:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow I mean ill eat salmon or halibut.. But I just have never thought about the fish I keep as food... I mean in all seriousness do ppl like breed fish to like pull out of the tank and eat for dinner.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tilapia found in many fish markets is a cichlid, perhaps not the same ones that are kept as aquarium fish, and as far as raising aquarium fish for food no.  Unless it was crayfish maybe  : )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7335 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/17/2004 9:29:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, goddessjules@... writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My husband & I bought a pacu & an oscar about 6 months ago. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guy told us that they didn't gorw that big... boy was he wrong! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pacu is now about 10 inches, & the oscar is about 4 inches. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        spent months stressing about what to do with the pacu. We are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        attached to the little (big) guy.  LFS doesn't want it. Says we never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should've bought it in the 1st place. Hoping to build a 'pond' inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mom's greenhouse...  Don't get yourself into that kind of trouble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I had a Pacu and my Oscar eventually had bite size chunks missing from his fins and the only suspects were a pleco and a Pacu.  It looked a lot like the bite of a Pacu.  You may want to keep an eye on him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I also went through two heaters before going stainless steel.  I eventually found him a new home with a guy that had a huge tank and a couple other Pacu.  You may have to try and advertise for a similar situation, someone looking for them that can readily accomodate their size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7336 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the oscar will reach about 20 inches in time as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 12/17/2004 9:29:16 PM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > goddessjules@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My husband & I bought a pacu & an oscar about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > months ago. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guy told us that they didn't gorw that big... boy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was he wrong! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pacu is now about 10 inches, & the oscar is about 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spent months stressing about what to do with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pacu. We are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attached to the little (big) guy. LFS doesn't want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it. Says we never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should've bought it in the 1st place. Hoping to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > build a 'pond' inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mom's greenhouse... Don't get yourself into that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kind of trouble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I had a Pacu and my Oscar eventually had bite size
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chunks missing from his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins and the only suspects were a pleco and a Pacu.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It looked a lot like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bite of a Pacu. You may want to keep an eye on him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I also went through two heaters before going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stainless steel. I eventually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > found him a new home with a guy that had a huge tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and a couple other Pacu.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You may have to try and advertise for a similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > situation, someone looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for them that can readily accomodate their size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7337 From: paul helms Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have you guys seen the tag on pacu's at walmart?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it says that they are a peaceful community fish that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grows to 6 inches....lmao
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- julie_hash <goddessjules@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My husband & I bought a pacu & an oscar about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > months ago. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guy told us that they didn't gorw that big... boy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was he wrong! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pacu is now about 10 inches, & the oscar is about 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spent months stressing about what to do with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pacu. We are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attached to the little (big) guy. LFS doesn't want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it. Says we never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should've bought it in the 1st place. Hoping to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > build a 'pond' inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mom's greenhouse... Don't get yourself into that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kind of trouble!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dorothy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wheeler <duchess562000@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About a year ago, I bought 2 red bellied pacus at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Petco. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > person told me they grew to be about 4 inches. In a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > month they grew 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7338 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/17/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: water change on my beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did a total water change and she is going all over the place in the new water is there anything wrong?> she goes up and down from the bottom to the top aims down then swims back to the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7339 From: straubtyler Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I do blame the worker 100%. If a store worker doesn't know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        person,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they should ask if they have kept fish long. Then they can go from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > That is what you call a "good worker", one that works! :) Maybe I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        expect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > too much from people?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I guess the proper thing to do is tell the store manager/owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and judge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their actions. If the worker is supported by the manager, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        walk out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If the manager apologizes, give them another chance. If the guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that sold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish was the manager, make your own decision...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > QUESTION: Do we expect all lfs employees to know exactly what a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customer is going to do with purchased fish ????????? From what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        read, quite a few members of this group have several tanks. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        employee is supposed to be psychic and know you plan on putting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        noncompatible fish in the same tank ?????? Agreed, the customer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should ask if they are not sure, but let's not blame the store 100 %.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7340 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: INCOMPATIBLE FISHES
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         db1rdman~ I totally disagree with your statement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that it is the consumer’s responsibility to inform a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        salesperson of their needs. The sales person needs to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        qualify the customer. First, by greeting them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        welcoming them. Secondly, by asking them pertinent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        questions i.e. what fish they are keeping presently,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        how many tanks, what size tanks, water parameters and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        many others. Last and not least, staying in the area.....................................

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just my two cents,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jeff Schultz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ccfireems@...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Seems there is a diferent set of rules for lfs employees and those in a car dealership, clothing store, etc.  Why is that ????????????  Could it be because we are intolerant of people who don't know as much as we do, or who don't do things the way we think they should be done???????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7341 From: paul helms Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as an lfs employee, i can tell you right now that 75%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of customers don't want your input. especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customers between 35 and 50. the dads want to show
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their kids they know what they are doing, and the moms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        want their husbands to deal with it.(just a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generalization)same with those over 70. we have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        learn to read customers body language and some people
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just don't want to do that much effort for the money.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they get burned out being told they are wrong by
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people who do not know what hey are talking about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- DB1RDMAN@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > db1rdman~ I totally disagree with your statement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that it is the consumer���s responsibility to inform
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > salesperson of their needs. The sales person needs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > qualify the customer. First, by greeting them and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > welcoming them. Secondly, by asking them pertinent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > questions i.e. what fish they are keeping presently,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > how many tanks, what size tanks, water parameters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > many others. Last and not least, staying in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > area.....................................
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Just my two cents,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Jeff Schultz
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ccfireems@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Seems there is a diferent set of rules for lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > employees and those in a car
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dealership, clothing store, etc. Why is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ???????????? Could it be because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > we are intolerant of people who don't know as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as we do, or who don't do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > things the way we think they should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > done???????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7342 From: paul helms Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so someone working at a lfs is supposed to spend hours
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        explaining and learning everyones tank, even though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they may only see the person once every few months?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do you have the slightest clue on how many people go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into an lfs daily. you would only be able to help one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        person in 30 minutes if you did that with every single
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customer. i personally do not have a problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remembering people, because i have been doing this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        type of work for 12 years, and have a loooong memory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that is why i have 100's of regulars that only come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when i am working, but still....you can't expect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        someone making less than 15 bucks an hour to solve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your problems withoout you asking the questions. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you don't know what you are doing....it is up to you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to ask for advice/help. their only responsibility is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to greet you, ask if you need help, answer your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        questions, and sell you what you want. hopefully they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do take the time to make sure you selection is ok for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your tank, but if you don't ask, ignorance is not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        workers problem. this is just a generalized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        statement, i personally go far beyond that, and don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        care when they do not want my advice, i give it either
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- straubtyler <straubtyler@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > "Patrick, The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > American Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I do blame the worker 100%. If a store worker
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > doesn't know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > person,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > they should ask if they have kept fish long. Then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they can go from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > That is what you call a "good worker", one that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > works! :) Maybe I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > expect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > too much from people?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I guess the proper thing to do is tell the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store manager/owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and judge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > their actions. If the worker is supported by the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > manager, then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > walk out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > If the manager apologizes, give them another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chance. If the guy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that sold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the fish was the manager, make your own
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > decision...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel, Regent 10-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > QUESTION: Do we expect all lfs employees to know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exactly what a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > customer is going to do with purchased fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ????????? From what I've
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > read, quite a few members of this group have several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tanks. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > employee is supposed to be psychic and know you plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on putting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > noncompatible fish in the same tank ?????? Agreed,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the customer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should ask if they are not sure, but let's not blame
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the store 100 %.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7343 From: paul helms Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        NEVER CHANGE 100%!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I did a total water change and she is going all over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the place in the new water is there anything wrong?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she goes up and down from the bottom to the top aims
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > down then swims back to the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7344 From: alglea@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I disagree that the responsibility is solely on the LFS.  We as consumers are responsible to know what we are buying.  Caveat Emptor <sp?> - let the buyer beware.   If you are willing to buy it - the store will sell it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As a fairly new fish-keeper (1 year), I did as much research on my own as I could.  I also asked questions of the people in the various stores I buy from.   The best one has been - of all places - Petsmart.   The main fish guy that USED to be there - took good care of all the fish - gave good advice - would tell you if you are doing something stupid - then if you insist - it's your Dollar.  That's really above and beyond though in many cases.  The smaller, non-chain store, don't seem to know quite as much - have more dead fish in their tanks, seem more stressed, etc.  The larger non-chain store has awesome stuff, healthy looking fish, but it's hard to get people to help you - and then they usually have a superiority attitude.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just set up a 100-gallon African (mixed Malawi/Tang) that I've really struggled with understanding what types of fish to add and what not.   The amount of information out there is staggering - and often contradictory.  Same with the fish store people - I shopped at 3 different stores - 2 local non-chain and Petsmart.    Everyone had different opinions - from number of fish to type of fish.   Hopefully my selections will do ok - so far so good.  I probably shouldn't have bought the little 1 inch red-fin calvus - but he's a beautiful little guy and I got him at 1/2 price!  Holds his own so far with fish twice his size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I added:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Venustus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Electric Hap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Electric Blue Johanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Princess of Burundi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Daffodils
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Cobalt Blue Johanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Yellow Labs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red Lab
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red Fin Calvus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 unknown - was supposed to be another Cobalt - but the guy netted the wrong one and I didn't notice.  He's a cool guy though - same tank with the Cobalts - but white with horizontal black strips - has an odd swim pattern (compared to others) and eyes are set higher on his head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All of the above are 2 inches or less in length.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tank's a 4 ft long,  100-gallon,  lots of cover and I'm going to add more rocks after X-mas - maybe a Synodontis Eupterus and a couple of others to round things out.  Have two emperor 400 filters - so really over filtering in preparation for things being a little crowded when they get bigger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        These guys join my 2 angels, Opaline Gourami, 2 giant Danios, 1 Syn. Eup, and 2 Algae eaters that I have in a 36 gallon corner tank.   I also have a little 10 Gallon with 2 red eye Tet's, 2 Bleeding heart tets, 1 Emperor Tet, 2 glow lights, and 4 Rasbora's - a little crowded but I'm overfiltering and doing lots of water changes on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Al
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7345 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/18/2004 9:31:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        right now that 75%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of customers don't want your input.  especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customers between 35 and 50.  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I believe it, my own father falls into that category.  I had a small tub/pond in his back yard and I told him repeatedly that the tap water had chlorine with Chloramines and it would fry the gills of the goldfish if he did not treat the water.  He completely blew me off and changed a large amount of water one day because it was "dirty".  Dead goldfish.  Pissed me off royally.  He was an experienced fish keeper 30 years ago, and I guess a young upstart was not to be listened to. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hell I can smell the chlorine coming out of the tap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7346 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i know so annoying didn't like 4 ppl already say that.. see this is why i got so annoyed the other day... first ppl don't educated before the buy the fish then they get into jams come here and except to get answers and the ppl actually give it to them and they don't even pay attention to what they said... what was it Patrick was saying about the geo metro's... lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        NEVER CHANGE 100%!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7347 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Al.. My fav store is a non local petsmart... it is possible.. but out of the 5 LFS near me I travel about 40 miles to one I know that the girl there knows her stuff. So however rare it is it can happen.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I disagree that the responsibility is solely on the LFS.  We as consumers are responsible to know what we are buying.  Caveat Emptor <sp?> - let the buyer beware.   If you are willing to buy it - the store will sell it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As a fairly new fish-keeper (1 year), I did as much research on my own as I could.  I also asked questions of the people in the various stores I buy from.   The best one has been - of all places - Petsmart.   The main fish guy that USED to be there - took good care of all the fish - gave good advice - would tell you if you are doing something stupid - then if you insist - it's your Dollar.  That's really above and beyond though in many cases.  The smaller, non-chain store, don't seem to know quite as much - have more dead fish in their tanks, seem more stressed, etc.  The larger non-chain store has awesome stuff, healthy looking fish, but it's hard to get people to help you - and then they usually have a superiority attitude.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just set up a 100-gallon African (mixed Malawi/Tang) that I've really struggled with understanding what types of fish to add and what not.   The amount of information out there is staggering - and often contradictory.  Same with the fish store people - I shopped at 3 different stores - 2 local non-chain and Petsmart.    Everyone had different opinions - from number of fish to type of fish.   Hopefully my selections will do ok - so far so good.  I probably shouldn't have bought the little 1 inch red-fin calvus - but he's a beautiful little guy and I got him at 1/2 price!  Holds his own so far with fish twice his size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I added:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Venustus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Electric Hap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Electric Blue Johanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Princess of Burundi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Daffodils
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Cobalt Blue Johanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 Yellow Labs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red Lab
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Red Fin Calvus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 unknown - was supposed to be another Cobalt - but the guy netted the wrong one and I didn't notice.  He's a cool guy though - same tank with the Cobalts - but white with horizontal black strips - has an odd swim pattern (compared to others) and eyes are set higher on his head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All of the above are 2 inches or less in length.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tank's a 4 ft long,  100-gallon,  lots of cover and I'm going to add more rocks after X-mas - maybe a Synodontis Eupterus and a couple of others to round things out.  Have two emperor 400 filters - so really over filtering in preparation for things being a little crowded when they get bigger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        These guys join my 2 angels, Opaline Gourami, 2 giant Danios, 1 Syn. Eup, and 2 Algae eaters that I have in a 36 gallon corner tank.   I also have a little 10 Gallon with 2 red eye Tet's, 2 Bleeding heart tets, 1 Emperor Tet, 2 glow lights, and 4 Rasbora's - a little crowded but I'm overfiltering and doing lots of water changes on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Al
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7348 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: stressed Endler female
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        After answering you yesterday my daughter hit something on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keyboard and the browser closed so I just gave up. She seems better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now, but just to answer your post. She is still in the tank I usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just catch the babies if I see them and put them in a breeder net in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank. I know my other fish will eat the babies because after I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        caught 11 I saw one more ran to get the net and haven't seen him since
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think he got eaten or sucked up in the filter. What size is a baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok to go into the big tank I have 2 endler babies from along time ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but they are still pretty tiny but alot bigger than the new 11 babies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I never got that lucky I bought 12 endlers for christmas last year and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have only gotten about 10 babies and the first 8 got there tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        knocked over by the cat and we lost them. These are the only two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remaining the females look prego but than look skinny and I never see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any babies!!! I guess I'm just not lucky in fish breeding. Have some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        extra fertile endlers to sale? Hehehe Thanks for replying. I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watching her closley and so far seems ok. She does it alot at night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't separate my preggers "Endler's livebearer" females from my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other fish (tons more Endlers and five golden White Clouds) because
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nobody in the tank ever bothers the fry. Every one that has ever been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > born in the tank is still in the tank, except for three that I fed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to my Convicts in my other tank. (Sorry, but even though it is still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stable now, my ten gallon tank surely can't support 50 or 60 fish for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > much longer!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In what way does she appear stressed? They are very hardy fish. Maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she just wants to be with her friends!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7349 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I disagree with this the pet store I went into had bettas that where
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so pretty they had the really full everywhere fins Not the typical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bettas you see. So I went home got a tank ready checked online for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        best home temps food and all that good stuff and when I went back the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        next day she had one left and it was the boring looking female. And
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now when ever she orders it's the same old plain ones everyone has. So
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I missed out and most fish don't stay around that long.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just cause you see a pretty fish in a cup doesnt mean you have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > buy it.. its not like the fish wont be there tom, next week or in a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > months..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7350 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: guppy question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two male guppies. They are always picking on each other. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is that? I do not have any females so that should not be the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7351 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the local pet store has one in a like 100 gallon tank with 2 big
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        oscars and 3 big catfish and goldfish. I thought he was huge but he's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only a portion of the fish in the pic.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Without any discrimination.. that is a lot of meat and hence is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@a... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@a...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: 18 December 2004 01:01
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] wha...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > omg your so not serious are you.. do ppl like eat them then.. wow..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yikes..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i am staying clear of that drama lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This is a fair idea of how big it grows to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://www.findesemanatv.com.ar/pacu.jpg
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this is still not its full potential.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7352 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        try aquabid for a local pick up only auction maybe you can find the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pacu a good home.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > My husband & I bought a pacu & an oscar about 6 months ago. The sales
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guy told us that they didn't gorw that big... boy was he wrong! The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pacu is now about 10 inches, & the oscar is about 4 inches. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > spent months stressing about what to do with the pacu. We are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > attached to the little (big) guy. LFS doesn't want it. Says we never
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should've bought it in the 1st place. Hoping to build a 'pond' inside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mom's greenhouse... Don't get yourself into that kind of trouble
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I had a Pacu and my Oscar eventually had bite size chunks missing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fins and the only suspects were a pleco and a Pacu. It looked a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bite of a Pacu. You may want to keep an eye on him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I also went through two heaters before going stainless steel. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eventually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > found him a new home with a guy that had a huge tank and a couple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        other Pacu.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You may have to try and advertise for a similar situation, someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        looking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for them that can readily accomodate their size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7353 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        did i stress her she is fine now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 8:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] water change on my beta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        NEVER CHANGE 100%!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I did a total water change and she is going all over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the place in the new water is there anything wrong?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she goes up and down from the bottom to the top aims
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > down then swims back to the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7354 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I would have to say yes. You never do a full water change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, colleen and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > did i stress her she is fine now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 8:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be AquaticLife ] water change on my beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > NEVER CHANGE 100%!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@g...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I did a total water change and she is going all over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the place in the new water is there anything wrong?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > she goes up and down from the bottom to the top aims
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > down then swims back to the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when replying,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7355 From: Steve Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Two questions are all that are really necessary: 1. "What size tank do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have?"; and 2. "What do you have in it already?".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Unless there are multiple water districts or a lot of wells in the area, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water parameters can be imputed to a certain extent. The employee will not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know the water quality of the individual's tank, but could, more or less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        mention a few things to get an idea of any other thing that could be sold to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        help the person maintain water quality while getting the water quality point
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        across as well as helping in the choice of fish. Done correctly, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customer will tell much more than you have asked, while still keeping any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know-it-all facade for other family members present. I've seen it work many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        times by certain people. Yep, it does take slightly longer, not much, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        then you have a customer who will keep coming back, and, perhaps a life-long
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hobbyist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 12:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] VANISHING FISH



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so someone working at a lfs is supposed to spend hours
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        explaining and learning everyones tank, even though
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they may only see the person once every few months?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do you have the slightest clue on how many people go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        into an lfs daily. you would only be able to help one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        person in 30 minutes if you did that with every single
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customer. i personally do not have a problem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remembering people, because i have been doing this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        type of work for 12 years, and have a loooong memory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that is why i have 100's of regulars that only come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when i am working, but still....you can't expect
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        someone making less than 15 bucks an hour to solve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your problems withoout you asking the questions. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you don't know what you are doing....it is up to you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to ask for advice/help. their only responsibility is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to greet you, ask if you need help, answer your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        questions, and sell you what you want. hopefully they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do take the time to make sure you selection is ok for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your tank, but if you don't ask, ignorance is not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        workers problem. this is just a generalized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        statement, i personally go far beyond that, and don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        care when they do not want my advice, i give it either
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- straubtyler <straubtyler@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7356 From: Colleen and Theresa Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: (no subject)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7357 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Seems there is a diferent set of rules for lfs employees and those in a car dealership, clothing store, etc.  Why is that ????????????  Could it be because we are intolerant of people who don't know as much as we do, or who don't do things the way we think they should be done???????????"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think we should have the same standards for anybody that sells something.  The car salesman should be able to at least tell you how the car runs, what all the buttons do, how to take care of it, etc.  Before they even think about selling the car, they will check you out, insurance, drivers license, credit report.  If they don't, they aren't good at their job.  The person at the clothes store should know where ever suit is, what sizes they have, etc.  They will measure you to make sure your suit fits.  But I would rather compare this to a farmer.  That farmer had better know how to care for his livestock.  When he sells his cattle, he had better make sure he complies with all the federal and state health laws, know if they are sick or not, know how big they are and how big they can be, and how much they should be sold for.  Before they sell cattle, I would expect them to ask what will be done with them.  I don't hold one group to a higher or lower standard.  People who lower standards are doomed to failure, and they deserve it.  Just because we don't always get up to those high standards doesn't mean we should give up.  The customer comes first, or they quit coming.  It is one thing to not ask details about the person's tank (I've only had that happen at pestmart!), but to be willing to sell a group of fish that would eat each other in a second without asking what they are going into is a little irresponsible, in my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7358 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Why wouldn't that be a problem?  Male live bearers are not the most peaceful fish in the world. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two male guppies. They are always picking on each other. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is that? I do not have any females so that should not be the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7359 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I hate to say it, but if you are doing a job, I expect it to be done right, no matter what your pay is.  You took the job, so do it.  If you make 6 bucks, I expect it to be done just as good as if you make 50 bucks an hour.  It is called "work ethic", and it has disappeared in America.  That is why we have to outsource.  People expect a pay check for nothing, and complain if they have to do their job because it is "so hard to do".  That is why on-line buying is so popular.  You punch it in the computer, an Indian kid that is happy to get their 20 cents processes it, and it comes to your front door.  Yeah, that means the person ordering it is too lazy to get up and go get it from a store, where they will have to wait for a lazy worker to come help them find what they need because they are too lazy to look around and find it on their own.  Even I am lazy, and will admit it.  Now if everyone else will admit to their laziness, we can all work together to over come it.  But we won't, we will all just complain that it is too hard to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PS: Remember the story of the famous President who walked through the snow to return some extra change to a customer who had left it behind.  Nobody believes it is true today, probably because the very idea of a store worker would use their own time to do such a thing.  That was work ethic.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7360 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/18/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have to say, if it was me, I would give the advice anyway.  If they don't take it and do something I know will mean they will be back for a replacement that will cost me a fish, I would send them off to a different store and hope they will come back when they learn their lesson.  If they don't come back, I would be happy knowing I won't have to replace their dead fish.  Is it really smart to replace a fish under warenty and lose the sale of the replacement fish, when you can save two fish and not be out any more by turning them away?  It may sound like bad business, and it probably is, but it is the moral and decent thing to do for a fellow human and possible fish keeper, not to mention it will boost profits in the long run! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PS: Paul, if your store was not on the other side of the Mississippi, not to mention the continent, I would be one of your customers.  And I would even listen to your advice. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as an lfs employee, i can tell you right now that 75% of customers don't want your input.  especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        customers between 35 and 50.  the dads want to show their kids they know what they are doing, and the moms want their husbands to deal with it.(just a generalization)same with those over 70.  we have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        learn to read customers body language and some people just don't want to do that much effort for the money. they get burned out being told they are wrong by people who do not know what they are talking about.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7361 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that is why we have a no replacement policy. if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        can bring in a believable sample of tank water that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has not been altered (yes we can tell) and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        listened, i may still do it, but for the most part, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only sell healthy fish....if it looks off we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        quarantine the tank and don't sell it, hence the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are healthy when they leave. for those who are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        obviously not listeneing to advice, i make sure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        remind them there is no replacement.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        P.S. THanks Pat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have to say, if it was me, I would give the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > advice anyway. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't take it and do something I know will mean they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will be back for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replacement that will cost me a fish, I would send
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them off to a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > store and hope they will come back when they learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their lesson. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't come back, I would be happy knowing I won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have to replace their dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish. Is it really smart to replace a fish under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > warenty and lose the sale
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of the replacement fish, when you can save two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and not be out any more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by turning them away? It may sound like bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > business, and it probably is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but it is the moral and decent thing to do for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fellow human and possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish keeper, not to mention it will boost profits in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the long run! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > PS: Paul, if your store was not on the other side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the Mississippi, not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mention the continent, I would be one of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > customers. And I would even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > listen to your advice. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > as an lfs employee, i can tell you right now that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 75% of customers don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > want your input. especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > customers between 35 and 50. the dads want to show
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their kids they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what they are doing, and the moms want their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > husbands to deal with it.(just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a generalization)same with those over 70. we have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > learn to read customers body language and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > people just don't want to do that much effort for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the money. they get burned out being told they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrong by people who do not know what they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > talking about.




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7362 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you got lucky, and may find taht not to be the case in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the coming weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > did i stress her she is fine now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 8:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] water change on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > NEVER CHANGE 100%!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I did a total water change and she is going all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the place in the new water is there anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrong?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > she goes up and down from the bottom to the top
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aims
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > down then swims back to the top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7363 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they are semi aggressive towrds other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        males......usually 2 females per male keeps them at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bey, but also keep you guppy rich...lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have two male guppies. They are always picking on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each other. Why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is that? I do not have any females so that should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not be the problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7364 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it is the opposite in CA. the chain stores have dolts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        working in them. they are generally stocked with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        people that run back and froth from the dog food to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the live fish to the cat toys, etc and know next to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nothing about any of them. larger stores like pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        smart and pet extreme are laden with dead fish all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time, patly do to 6-10 tanks being on 1 filter system
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in which all of the tanks are sick if one is. on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        flip side there are 3 lfs within 6 miles of my house,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and you would be challenged to find more than 1 dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in there 50-100 tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Al.. My fav store is a non local petsmart... it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > possible.. but out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 5 LFS near me I travel about 40 miles to one I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that the girl there knows
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > her stuff. So however rare it is it can happen....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I disagree that the responsibility is solely on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > LFS. We as consumers are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > responsible to know what we are buying. Caveat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Emptor <sp?> - let the buyer
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > beware. If you are willing to buy it - the store
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will sell it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > As a fairly new fish-keeper (1 year), I did as much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > research on my own as I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could. I also asked questions of the people in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > various stores I buy from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The best one has been - of all places - Petsmart.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The main fish guy that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > USED to be there - took good care of all the fish -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gave good advice - would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tell you if you are doing something stupid - then if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you insist - it's your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Dollar. That's really above and beyond though in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > many cases. The smaller,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > non-chain store, don't seem to know quite as much -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have more dead fish in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tanks, seem more stressed, etc. The larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > non-chain store has awesome stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > healthy looking fish, but it's hard to get people to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > help you - and then they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > usually have a superiority attitude.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I just set up a 100-gallon African (mixed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Malawi/Tang) that I've really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > struggled with understanding what types of fish to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > add and what not. The amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of information out there is staggering - and often
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > contradictory. Same with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the fish store people - I shopped at 3 different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > stores - 2 local non-chain and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Petsmart. Everyone had different opinions - from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > number of fish to type of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish. Hopefully my selections will do ok - so far
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so good. I probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shouldn't have bought the little 1 inch red-fin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > calvus - but he's a beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little guy and I got him at 1/2 price! Holds his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > own so far with fish twice his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I added:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Venustus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Electric Hap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 Electric Blue Johanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Princess of Burundi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 Daffodils
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Cobalt Blue Johanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 Yellow Labs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Red Lab
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 Red Fin Calvus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 unknown - was supposed to be another Cobalt - but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the guy netted the wrong
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one and I didn't notice. He's a cool guy though -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > same tank with the Cobalts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > - but white with horizontal black strips - has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > odd swim pattern (compared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to others) and eyes are set higher on his head.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > All of the above are 2 inches or less in length.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tank's a 4 ft long, 100-gallon, lots of cover and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I'm going to add more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > rocks after X-mas - maybe a Synodontis Eupterus and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a couple of others to round
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > things out. Have two emperor 400 filters - so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really over filtering in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > preparation for things being a little crowded when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they get bigger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > These guys join my 2 angels, Opaline Gourami, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > giant Danios, 1 Syn. Eup, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 Algae eaters that I have in a 36 gallon corner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank. I also have a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 Gallon with 2 red eye Tet's, 2 Bleeding heart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tets, 1 Emperor Tet, 2 glow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lights, and 4 Rasbora's - a little crowded but I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > overfiltering and doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lots of water changes on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Al
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7365 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some of teh old timers that have been out of the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        forget that in the past 20 years the water out of tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has gone from fairly natural to......you better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pretend you are in mexico before drinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that.....filter it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In a message dated 12/18/2004 9:31:28 AM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > right now that 75%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of customers don't want your input. especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > customers between 35 and 50. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I believe it, my own father falls into that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > category. I had a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tub/pond in his back yard and I told him repeatedly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that the tap water had chlorine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with Chloramines and it would fry the gills of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > goldfish if he did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > treat the water. He completely blew me off and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > changed a large amount of water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one day because it was "dirty". Dead goldfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Pissed me off royally. He
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was an experienced fish keeper 30 years ago, and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guess a young upstart was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not to be listened to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hell I can smell the chlorine coming out of the tap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7366 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Al,  Just an incidental, after reading your post.  In case you are not aware of it, although you may know this -- the Venustus can get to 12" and might be too large for your eventual plans (?).  Even so, his size should be no problem for your tank, which sounds like a nicely sized container for this group of fish.  Lots of luck with it.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7367 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/19/2004 12:33:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some of teh old timers that have been out of the hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        forget that in the past 20 years the water out of tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has gone from fairly natural to......you better
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pretend you are in mexico before drinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that.....filter it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ya, he ignored my warnings, and the bottle of amquel was easily visible too.  And yes, the water is nasty, I have taken to drinking bottled water lately.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7368 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: my baby got a new home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got a new tank tonight for my baby beta her name is brooklyn by the way. Its got filteration now and its nice two gallon since she is the only one .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Colleen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7369 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What kind of fish can you put right with a beta where they can be totally together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7370 From: Chris Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Snails
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I baught 2 snails yesterday to assist with my alge problom. I noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it has taken over 24 hours for one snail to come out of it's shell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and begin moveing. The other snail has yet to come out. I guess my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question is, is this normal for new snails to adgust to a new tank? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was realy begining to wonder if they were dead LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7371 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no, they should get going within a few minutes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Chris <cjreporter98@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I baught 2 snails yesterday to assist with my alge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problom. I noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it has taken over 24 hours for one snail to come out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of it's shell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and begin moveing. The other snail has yet to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out. I guess my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > question is, is this normal for new snails to adgust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to a new tank? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was realy begining to wonder if they were dead LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7372 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no, they should get going within a few minutes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Chris <cjreporter98@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I baught 2 snails yesterday to assist with my alge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problom. I noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it has taken over 24 hours for one snail to come out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of it's shell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and begin moveing. The other snail has yet to come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out. I guess my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > question is, is this normal for new snails to adgust
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to a new tank? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was realy begining to wonder if they were dead LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7373 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cori cat, gold fish, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I got a new tank tonight for my baby beta her name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is brooklyn by the way. Its got filteration now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > its nice two gallon since she is the only one .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Colleen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7374 From: paul helms Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What kind of fish can you put right with a beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > where they can be totally together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7375 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 08:52 PM 12/19/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I baught 2 snails yesterday to assist with my alge problom. I noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it has taken over 24 hours for one snail to come out of it's shell
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and begin moveing. The other snail has yet to come out. I guess my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        question is, is this normal for new snails to adgust to a new tank? I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was realy begining to wonder if they were dead LOL!



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The snails should be out within a few minutes.  Did you add your tank water to the bag slowly like you would a fish?  They are easily shocked by large ph changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What kind of snails did you get?  Please be aware that the usual snails from pet stores can't survive on algae, in fact they will only eat it if they are starving.  They must be fed just like fish.  Please visit my website for more care information.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        www.rainbowsnails.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails, jewelry, food and more

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7376 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in tank without any boundaries
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What kind of fish can you put right with a beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > where they can be totally together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7377 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what is a cori cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] my baby got a new home

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cori cat, gold fish, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I got a new tank tonight for my baby beta her name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is brooklyn by the way. Its got filteration now and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > its nice two gallon since she is the only one .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Colleen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7378 From: Sally and Paul Graham Date: 12/19/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Driftwood (Australia)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Where is the cheapest place in Sydney/Newcastle to get good, cheap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        driftwood? Also, probably a stupid question, but can you make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7379 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you do need to be a bit more specific than "in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        without boundaries" so here ya go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. what size tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. heated or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. planted or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4. filtered or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in tank without any boundaries
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > What kind of fish can you put right with a beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > where they can be totally together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7380 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        completely peacful cat fish. somewhat triangular
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        body, don't grow more than 3 inches. available in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        many color variations, including albino, green, panda,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        peppered. active swimmers great in groups, a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        character. they actually have a skull instead of just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cartlidge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what is a cori cat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] my baby got a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cori cat, gold fish, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I got a new tank tonight for my baby beta her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > is brooklyn by the way. Its got filteration now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > its nice two gallon since she is the only one .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Colleen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7381 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think it's a 2 gallon filtered tank. What filter, I don't know, don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if it has a heater or not. Just gathered this information from her other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thread ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Personally 2 gallon would be too small for any other fish but options are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there. Pygmy corydoras could do in a group of 3 with the betta but I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be refrained from putting anything else in it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You could however have some algae eating shrimps. They come in various
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        colours now and will do well in that tank size. Have a couple of apple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In terms of fish, a group of 4 small pencil fish (nanostomus beckfordi) can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do in it if the filter is good enough. You could also have a group of 3-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        neon tetras or cardinals though they prefer to be in a group of larger but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3-4 can do fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fish stores may recommend you some livebearers to go in a tank that size and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        IMO, stay away from them. Male livebearers IME can become very aggressive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and rip apart a poor betta's fins. Females can be fine but are mostly drab
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but still a risk with a betta.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a Betta in a 8 gallon tank with an amino shrimp, 5 eques pencil fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (hockeystick), a couple of snails and an ancistrus (bristle nose catfish).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tank is planted and runs on a Fluval 1 internal filter with reduced flow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 20 December 2004 08:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] question


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you do need to be a bit more specific than "in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        without boundaries" so here ya go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. what size tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. heated or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. planted or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4. filtered or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in tank without any boundaries
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > What kind of fish can you put right with a beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > where they can be totally together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7382 From: Chris Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are just the basic every day snail. The tropical fish place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        assured me they eat alge.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7383 From: Terri Bryant Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At 06:10 AM 12/20/2004, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They are just the basic every day snail. The tropical fish place
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        assured me they eat alge.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Unfortunately pet stores don't always know everything.  If the snail is gold or black it can't live on algae. They are usually sold as "Mystery" or "Inca" snails. You should check into care on these snails just as you would any fish you put in your tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please take a minute to look at this http://www.applesnail.net/ to verify what you have.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Terri
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7384 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/19/2004 10:57:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, salandpaul@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, probably a stupid question, but can you make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        driftwood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well I tried to make two pieces of driftwood.  I found two pieces of wood in a creek and took them home and soaked them for a couple months.  They kept leaching tannins and turning water tea color.  Perhaps if I had boiled them instead of just soakng them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Others may have a succesful method of doing this.  If I attempt it again I will try and boil the wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7385 From: Chris Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the informative link. It was very helpfull to identify my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        snails as a species of apple snail.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Terri Bryant
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <bryants4god@e...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7386 From: hazyhumid2 Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: INCOMPATIBLE FISHES**HELP***
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just hopped in and boy it sounds like us/family.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay, Can anyone give suggestions on how to find a fish a new home?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is there a group like this, adoption places...or places in my area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to post pix and offer it to a new home? Any suggestions welcome?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I dont want him being used as a feeder either, I know one person who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will take him but he has a ton of his own tanks and I have a feeling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        he will use him as a feeder for his HUGE 8yr old illegal fish...he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        says not but, just a feeling.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oscar- approx 7 inches now has to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I love him like crazy, even though I never wanted him in the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        place...I just get attached, and we are buds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Similar story, DH and kids come home with 6 fish tonight (would NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have happened had I been at the store with them)...same thing ego
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        husband, kids who want pretty fish, petmart wieners sold these fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to him knowing we had an Oscar and DH claiming he warned the kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oscar might eat them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        He was surprised how quick Oscar took two out (5 min) (bigger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        prettier ones), 2 down...4 to go...maybe 3 at this point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am at my wits end...all freaking here kids didnt need to see that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they already had names (except the husband, and yes...the DH should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        go and not Oscar-smile...but its not an option right now)....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The poor fish who have been with Oscar from day one and survived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well...well...I am ready for them to enjoy life again and not live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        scared to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Help, frustrated...and really I want to find Oscar a good home, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dont have space for another very large tank. I really dont need the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        should have thought about this before we got him, I am not to blame,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and the DH wont be reading this :) Thanks!








                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that is why we have a no replacement policy. if they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can bring in a believable sample of tank water that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > has not been altered (yes we can tell) and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > listened, i may still do it, but for the most part, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only sell healthy fish....if it looks off we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > quarantine the tank and don't sell it, hence the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are healthy when they leave. for those who are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > obviously not listeneing to advice, i make sure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > remind them there is no replacement.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > P.S. THanks Pat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have to say, if it was me, I would give the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > advice anyway. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > don't take it and do something I know will mean they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > will be back for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > replacement that will cost me a fish, I would send
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > them off to a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > store and hope they will come back when they learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > their lesson. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > don't come back, I would be happy knowing I won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > have to replace their dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish. Is it really smart to replace a fish under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > warenty and lose the sale
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > of the replacement fish, when you can save two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and not be out any more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > by turning them away? It may sound like bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > business, and it probably is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > but it is the moral and decent thing to do for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fellow human and possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fish keeper, not to mention it will boost profits in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the long run! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > PS: Paul, if your store was not on the other side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the Mississippi, not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > mention the continent, I would be one of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > customers. And I would even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > listen to your advice. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > as an lfs employee, i can tell you right now that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 75% of customers don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > want your input. especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > customers between 35 and 50. the dads want to show
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > their kids they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > what they are doing, and the moms want their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > husbands to deal with it.(just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > a generalization)same with those over 70. we have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > learn to read customers body language and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > people just don't want to do that much effort for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > the money. they get burned out being told they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wrong by people who do not know what they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > talking about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7387 From: wolf1@oregontrail.net Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Filter Question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two Aqua-tech aquarium filters and I have been having a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem keeping them working. They work fine and when I unplug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to clean them once a month they won't work again after I plug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in. I have been lucky so far that they start after while. Anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7388 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The betta will require a heater unless you live in an area with a similar climate to Thailand that stays between 75 and 85 degrees inside.  If this is a 2 gallon tank as was suggested, nothing else should be put with the betta, except maybe a African Dwarf Frog, shrimp, or a snail. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7389 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            First, I wouldn't clean them every month unless they are really needing it.  Second, if you use warm or cold water, that could do it.  I have the same problem when I clean my filter.  It just takes a while for it to set with tank water in it to warm or cool down to the right temperature.  I have two of those filters, they are basically Marineland penguins without bio-wheels, so they are a name-brand filter.  You might go to their web site and see if they can help you, but I'm pretty sure it is just because the temperature of the water used for cleaning it is the problem.  I have one that has worked (with a gap of about 1 year) for 3 years.  The other has been working for about 2 years and never cleaned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two Aqua-tech aquarium filters and I have been having a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem keeping them working. They work fine and when I unplug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to clean them once a month they won't work again after I plug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in. I have been lucky so far that they start after while. Anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7390 From: Aaron Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: green hair algae?s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have 4- 55watt compact flourescents on timer 12 hours a day 1/2 at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a time(110w at a time), I am getting a lot of green hair algae, some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of it is growing in large clusters that look like a moss ball. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a semi-planted 55 gallon w/ driftwood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have taken it out and put it in the fry tank for them to have some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cover.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what causes this type of algae?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7391 From: Aaron Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: pH too low?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pH tested near 5.0, is that too low for Neon/Cardinal Tetras?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        does baking soda increase pH? is it nescessary to do so if the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seem to be ok?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is a semi-planted 55 gallon w/ driftwood. I use only RO water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        reconstituted w/ Kent brand RO Right & pH Stable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The GH is at 16degrees German Hardness and the KH is unmeasureable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or zero degrees. Does the KH have direct corralation with the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        columns buffering capacity?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The GH is at the high end of the recommended range, is it true that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tetras do better in softer water?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I add aquarium salt during water changes, is the salt what is making
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the water so hard?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There is no detectable ammonia or NitrItes, the NitrAtes are about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        20.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7392 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Tuesday 21 Dec 2004 15:32, Aaron wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pH tested near 5.0, is that too low for Neon/Cardinal Tetras?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > does baking soda increase pH? is it nescessary to do so if the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > seem to be ok?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It is a semi-planted 55 gallon w/ driftwood. I use only RO water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reconstituted w/ Kent brand RO Right & pH Stable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The GH is at 16degrees German Hardness and the KH is unmeasureable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or zero degrees. Does the KH have direct corralation with the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > columns buffering capacity?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You really want some kH to stabilize the pH or it will continue to crash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        downwards... RO water only is not the best as it has no buffering capacity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sure, tetra like soft water, but do fine in harder water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7393 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        high phosphate and sunlight levels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have 4- 55watt compact flourescents on timer 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hours a day 1/2 at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a time(110w at a time), I am getting a lot of green
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hair algae, some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of it is growing in large clusters that look like a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > moss ball. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a semi-planted 55 gallon w/ driftwood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have taken it out and put it in the fry tank for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them to have some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cover.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what causes this type of algae?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7394 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        get different filters...i suggest aquaclear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- wolf1@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have two Aqua-tech aquarium filters and I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been having a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem keeping them working. They work fine and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when I unplug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to clean them once a month they won't work again
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > after I plug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in. I have been lucky so far that they start after
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > while. Anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7395 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        try your lfs....may give you something credit wise
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- hazyhumid2 <my-destiny@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I just hopped in and boy it sounds like us/family.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Okay, Can anyone give suggestions on how to find a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish a new home?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is there a group like this, adoption places...or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > places in my area
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to post pix and offer it to a new home? Any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suggestions welcome?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I dont want him being used as a feeder either, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > know one person who
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will take him but he has a ton of his own tanks and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a feeling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > he will use him as a feeder for his HUGE 8yr old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > illegal fish...he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > says not but, just a feeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Oscar- approx 7 inches now has to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I love him like crazy, even though I never wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > him in the first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > place...I just get attached, and we are buds.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Similar story, DH and kids come home with 6 fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tonight (would NOT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have happened had I been at the store with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > them)...same thing ego
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > husband, kids who want pretty fish, petmart wieners
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sold these fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to him knowing we had an Oscar and DH claiming he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > warned the kids
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Oscar might eat them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > He was surprised how quick Oscar took two out (5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > min) (bigger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > prettier ones), 2 down...4 to go...maybe 3 at this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am at my wits end...all freaking here kids didnt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > need to see that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they already had names (except the husband, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > yes...the DH should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > go and not Oscar-smile...but its not an option right
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > now)....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The poor fish who have been with Oscar from day one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and survived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well...well...I am ready for them to enjoy life
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > again and not live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > scared to.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Help, frustrated...and really I want to find Oscar a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > good home, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dont have space for another very large tank. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really dont need the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > should have thought about this before we got him, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am not to blame,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and the DH wont be reading this :) Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > that is why we have a no replacement policy. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > can bring in a believable sample of tank water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > has not been altered (yes we can tell) and they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > listened, i may still do it, but for the most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > part, we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > only sell healthy fish....if it looks off we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > quarantine the tank and don't sell it, hence the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > are healthy when they leave. for those who are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > obviously not listeneing to advice, i make sure to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > remind them there is no replacement.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > P.S. THanks Pat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > I have to say, if it was me, I would give
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > advice anyway. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > don't take it and do something I know will mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > will be back for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > replacement that will cost me a fish, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > send
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > them off to a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > store and hope they will come back when they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > their lesson. If they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > don't come back, I would be happy knowing I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > have to replace their dead
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish. Is it really smart to replace a fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > under
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > warenty and lose the sale
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > of the replacement fish, when you can save two
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > and not be out any more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > by turning them away? It may sound like bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > business, and it probably is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > but it is the moral and decent thing to do for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fellow human and possible
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > fish keeper, not to mention it will boost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > profits in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the long run! :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > PS: Paul, if your store was not on the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > side of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the Mississippi, not to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > mention the continent, I would be one of your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > customers. And I would even
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > listen to your advice. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > as an lfs employee, i can tell you right now
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > 75% of customers don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > want your input. especially the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > customers between 35 and 50. the dads want to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > show
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > their kids they know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > what they are doing, and the moms want their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > husbands to deal with it.(just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > a generalization)same with those over 70. we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > learn to read customers body language and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > people just don't want to do that much effort
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > the money. they get burned out being told they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > wrong by people who do not know what they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > talking about.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > viruses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7396 From: paul helms Date: 12/20/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the neons may get nippy in such a small tank with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I think it's a 2 gallon filtered tank. What filter,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I don't know, don't know
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if it has a heater or not. Just gathered this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > information from her other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thread ;)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Personally 2 gallon would be too small for any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish but options are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there. Pygmy corydoras could do in a group of 3 with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the betta but I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be refrained from putting anything else in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You could however have some algae eating shrimps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > They come in various
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > colours now and will do well in that tank size. Have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a couple of apple
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > In terms of fish, a group of 4 small pencil fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (nanostomus beckfordi) can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do in it if the filter is good enough. You could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > also have a group of 3-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > neon tetras or cardinals though they prefer to be in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a group of larger but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3-4 can do fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Fish stores may recommend you some livebearers to go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in a tank that size and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > IMO, stay away from them. Male livebearers IME can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > become very aggressive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and rip apart a poor betta's fins. Females can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fine but are mostly drab
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > but still a risk with a betta.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a Betta in a 8 gallon tank with an amino
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shrimp, 5 eques pencil fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (hockeystick), a couple of snails and an ancistrus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (bristle nose catfish).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Tank is planted and runs on a Fluval 1 internal
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter with reduced flow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms [mailto:wtfmorlok@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: 20 December 2004 08:15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you do need to be a bit more specific than "in tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > without boundaries" so here ya go
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1. what size tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2. heated or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 3. planted or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 4. filtered or not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in tank without any boundaries
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > in what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > What kind of fish can you put right with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > beta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > > where they can be totally together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7397 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is pH 5.0 too low for Neon and Cardinal Tetras?; no, they can tolerate that pH and are even bred between pH 5.0 and pH 6.5.  Do Tetras do better in softer water?; Yes, in general they prefer softer water.  However, unless you plan to breed them, there is no reason to want to change their existing conditions if they are doing okay now.      *                                                                                                                         To answer some of your other questions, baking soda will raise the pH, but with such a low pH as 5.0, you may get "precipitation"; a white powder may fall out of solution, coating the bottom and still your pH may "jump" do to poor buffering capacity. Its unusual for R/O water to have that low a pH.  Therefore, something in the tank must be causing that drop.  I would be very suspect of the driftwood causing it.  *                                                                                                                         The KH (temporary) or calcium carbonate definitely has a direct relationship to buffering capacity, however that buffering capacity is somewhat lost (not as effective) in a low pH.  Kent RO Right will tend to increase the GH and carbonate alkalinity, but you're fighting a losing battle with trying to raise the pH and just adding to the hardness.  Aquarium salt (regular sodium chloride) will not increase the hardness, but marine aquarium salt will, as it contains calcium and magnesium salts.  With a KH of less than 5, its adviseable to watch the pH and nitrates more closely as, again, they may fluctuate.                                                                                     *                                                                                                                         For a more stable and easier to maintain pH (and other parameters), I would go with cutting that R/O water with 20% -25% tap water, instead of trying to fool around with pure R/O and Kent additives/salt, etc.  I don't understand why you want pure R/O unless you're breeding the fish and even then they need some minerals.  Good you are using salt.  Pure R/O will start leaching the calcium from the fish's bones after a while.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7398 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:08:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, wolf1@... writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have two Aqua-tech aquarium filters and I have been having a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem keeping them working. They work fine and when I unplug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to clean them once a month they won't work again after I plug them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in. I have been lucky so far that they start after while. Anyone have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tammy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fill them up with tank water from a cup when you turn them on.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Make sure the tank is full so they do not need to draw water from a low level tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7399 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that is so odd cause for the first time the past weekend i cleaned out my filter only cause i was thinking maybe i had a fish in there cuaes i couldn't find it.. anyhow when i hooked it back up.. didn't work.. so i bought another one bigger and better and then just plugged it is for no reason and the darn thing worked the next day... so i have it now as a spare i guess.... or for that hospital tank that i am saving up for.. lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            First, I wouldn't clean them every month unless they are really needing it.  Second, if you use warm or cold water, that could do it.  I have the same problem when I clean my filter.  It just takes a while for it to set with tank water in it to warm or cool down to the right temperature.  I have two of those filters, they are basically Marineland penguins without bio-wheels, so they are a name-brand filter.  You might go to their web site and see if they can help you, but I'm pretty sure it is just because the temperature of the water used for cleaning it is the problem.  I have one that has worked (with a gap of about 1 year) for 3 years.  The other has been working for about 2 years and never cleaned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7400 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I went and bought a whisper filter when my marineland ATR wouldn't start right the first few times.  The whisper sits in my closet now and my ATR is working fine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -5 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that is so odd cause for the first time the past weekend i cleaned out my filter only cause i was thinking maybe i had a fish in there cuaes i couldn't find it.. anyhow when i hooked it back up.. didn't work.. so i bought another one bigger and better and then just plugged it is for no reason and the darn thing worked the next day... so i have it now as a spare i guess.... or for that hospital tank that i am saving up for.. lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7401 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/21/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: female bettas
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can you put two females together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7402 From: paul helms Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Can you put two females together?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7403 From: Aaron Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FTFA] green hair algae?s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        how do I measure &/or lower the phosphate?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        could indirect sunlight be causing the algae?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > high phosphate and sunlight levels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7404 From: Aaron Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are no fish in the tank at this time. After testing the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I removed them all to make room for the tetras I intend to get soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wanted to try and adjust the water without any fish first, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the livebearers that were in there were breeding just fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How do I increase the kH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So driftwood could affect pH levels?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, Tim Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <tim@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > You really want some kH to stabilize the pH or it will continue to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > downwards... RO water only is not the best as it has no buffering
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        capacity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sure, tetra like soft water, but do fine in harder water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7405 From: Aaron Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Neon / Cardinal Tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are supplies of these fish seasonal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are they typically all wild caught?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are there reliable sources for breeders online or locally in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Franciso Area?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have not seen any Cardinals available lately and those that I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have before were not healthy at the store and did not last more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a few weeks at home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any special recommendations for keeping these?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can I breed them in the 55 gallon planted tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have heard they prefer soft water, low pH, low to moderate current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and low light.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any other suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7406 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From what I heard from a guy (so you know that has to be accurate:), neons are farm-raised and cardinals are mostly wild-caught. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are supplies of these fish seasonal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are they typically all wild caught?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Are there reliable sources for breeders online or locally in the San
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Franciso Area?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have not seen any Cardinals available lately and those that I did
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have before were not healthy at the store and did not last more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a few weeks at home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any special recommendations for keeping these?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can I breed them in the 55 gallon planted tank?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have heard they prefer soft water, low pH, low to moderate current
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and low light.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Any other suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7407 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Carbonates (crushed coral, baking soda) will raise the pH and carbonate hardness (KH) so it will stabilize the water.  If you use baking soda, just about 1 pinch per gallon just like you would use a pinch of salt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are no fish in the tank at this time. After testing the water,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I removed them all to make room for the tetras I intend to get soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wanted to try and adjust the water without any fish first, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the livebearers that were in there were breeding just fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        How do I increase the kH?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So driftwood could affect pH levels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7408 From: paul helms Date: 12/22/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there are phosphate test kits available for about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        $15.00. cutting back on feeding will lower them, as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well as small frequent water changes. there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        phosphate removing pads and granule sponges available
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        too, but making sure you do not over feed is the best
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Aaron <massagetherapist@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > how do I measure &/or lower the phosphate?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > could indirect sunlight be causing the algae?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > high phosphate and sunlight levels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7410 From: helen572 Date: 12/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Help! My blue crayfish has eggs - now what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a 40-gallon with cichlids and one blue crayfish. The crayfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        has been hiding for the past three days and we thought he might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        molting, but this morning "he" ventured out, and we noticed these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        little black balls under the tail. At first I thought he might be sick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or something, but then on closer inspection, we realized our "he" is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she and had an egg cluster under her tail. She proceeded to dig at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        various spots in the tank -- we assumed she was trying to find a spot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to either deposit the eggs or to hide in with the eggs. I've checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        out a few web sites, but they didn't explain what happens if the eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aren't fertilized. The sites did say that female crayfish can retain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        male sperm for months, so I guess it's possible the eggs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fertilized. We got her in October, and she's molted once.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We have another tank we could put her in; or should we just let nature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        take it course and see what happens? If the eggs are fertilized, won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the cichlids get the fry? What happens if the eggs aren't fertilized?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does she eventually deposit them in the gravel, or do they float free
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and the cichlids get them or what?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We want to do the right thing by her, but we're not sure what that is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7411 From: Ken Date: 12/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: First Time Here
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I apologise for the cross-post but this is my first time here and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        am not sure what are the current active yahoo groups on the topic of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fresh water aquariums.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am extremely new to the hobby and my education is limited. Given
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that, I am interested in developing a tank and I wanted some advice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For a first timer, I wanted to develop say a 30-50 gallon tank and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was wondering what type of filter and other components I should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        purchase. Ultimately, when I acquire the necessary education, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        really want to develop a tank with live plants, other amphibian, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        possibly reptile life (allowing for creatures that can saftely co-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        habitate). Given that, I understand the process shall take time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        learn. Where is the best place to begin?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dr. Kenneth Gruenfeld
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7412 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/24/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help! My blue crayfish has eggs - now what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Many years ago we had a wild caught one in our tank she had eggs and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they did hatch but the babies where so little they got like trapped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inbetween the fish tank rocks! So if you wanted to maybe have some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        live babies it might be a good idea to take her out. But I'm only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        talking from my experience and it may be wrong to take her out I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        know. Anyone else have any ideas?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have a 40-gallon with cichlids and one blue crayfish. The crayfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > has been hiding for the past three days and we thought he might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > molting, but this morning "he" ventured out, and we noticed these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > little black balls under the tail. At first I thought he might be sick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or something, but then on closer inspection, we realized our "he" is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > she and had an egg cluster under her tail. She proceeded to dig at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > various spots in the tank -- we assumed she was trying to find a spot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to either deposit the eggs or to hide in with the eggs. I've checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > out a few web sites, but they didn't explain what happens if the eggs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aren't fertilized. The sites did say that female crayfish can retain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > male sperm for months, so I guess it's possible the eggs are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fertilized. We got her in October, and she's molted once.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We have another tank we could put her in; or should we just let nature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > take it course and see what happens? If the eggs are fertilized, won't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the cichlids get the fry? What happens if the eggs aren't fertilized?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Does she eventually deposit them in the gravel, or do they float free
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and the cichlids get them or what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > We want to do the right thing by her, but we're not sure what that is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7413 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 12/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Help! My blue crayfish has eggs - now what?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you have a spare tank then I would pujt her in that tank with out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gravel.The eggs take about a month to hatch so that when they do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hatch you could put her back in the main tank and feed the young one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lots of good food but make sure to put fine leaved plants (real are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        better) so that the young ones can keep out of each others way or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they might eat each other. I have dwarf crawfish and they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeding like crazy but they do not eat each other so the tank is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        begining to be overcrowded. I will have to take some to a store that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        wants some.The ammano shrimp are breding like crazy too but I do not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have a salt water tank to let the eggs grow into young shrimp. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just wish that the cherry shrimp would start taking lesons from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ammano shrimp and the dwarf crawfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7414 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 12/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: San Francisco Aquarium Society , 1/7/2005, 7:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        San Francisco Aquarium Society

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Friday January 7, 2005
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This event repeats on the first Friday of every month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The next reminder for this event will be sent in 9 days, 4 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Event Location: first Friday of each month at The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.sfaquarium.org/about.html

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7415 From: paul helms Date: 12/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        first thing we need to know is what you plan on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        keeping in the tank. there are different light, heat
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and filtration requirement for salt or fresh, as well
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as for the types of fish you may want to keep. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        types that you want will also determine what your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water parameters need to be. plan on taking a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4-8 weeks before stocking the new fish in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that has been getting ready to hold them. there are a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        few ways to "cycle" your tank, meaning a few way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        begin the nitrogen process and developing benneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bacteria in the tank to make it somewhat self
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sufficient. these bacterias convert fih waste and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        uneaten food safely through the nitrogen process so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that the fish do not poison themselves. the first way
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is with fish, such as mollies or goldfish to start it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        off. don't la on keeping these ones alive. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        likely that they will die during the cycle. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        second way is fishless, which i prefer. siple add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        live bacteria or a product that encourages it, and run
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank with the lights off and filters on for about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5 weeks. i personally use stress zyme. 1 teaspoon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        per 10 gallons of tank water is addd on the 1st, 7th,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and 14th day. after 5-6 weeks you are left with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        clean and ready tolightly stock aquarium. as far as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filtration, you need three types 9this does not mean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 filters) 1st is mechanical- something that moves
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water, adding oxygen. 2nd is biologic- something that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        allows bacteria to grow that will consume or convert
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ammonia through the nitrogen cycle. and 3rd is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        chemical. in fresh water, carbon clarifies water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (polishes) as well as neutralizes any odors. carbon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is active for approximately 30 days in normal flow of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water, and need to be replaced every 30 days. there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        are filters out there that perform all 3 functions,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        such as bio wheels. i find it best to buy a filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        that says it will handle a tank double the size of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yours. in addition i add an undergravel filter, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is an additional biologic filter that pulls watse
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        through your gravel to a bed of bacteria to consume.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you can run this inexpensive filter with an air pump,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        but i find it much more effective to run it with power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        heads, which draw 100+ gallons of water through the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        filter per hour. i find that it is closer to a bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        proof system by using both a bio wheel and an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        undergravel filter myself. you can also use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cannister filter. with the ug filter, you may have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem in a well planted tank, as the roots can clog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it. these are just my personal suggestions, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        others in the group may have other advice for you. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have 15 years in the hoby with both fresh and salt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water, and i work in a lfs (local fish store) in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        SF bay area of california.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Ken <Iksnip@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I apologise for the cross-post but this is my first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > time here and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > am not sure what are the current active yahoo groups
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > on the topic of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fresh water aquariums.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am extremely new to the hobby and my education is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > limited. Given
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that, I am interested in developing a tank and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wanted some advice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > For a first timer, I wanted to develop say a 30-50
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallon tank and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > was wondering what type of filter and other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > components I should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > purchase. Ultimately, when I acquire the necessary
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > education, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really want to develop a tank with live plants,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > other amphibian, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > possibly reptile life (allowing for creatures that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can saftely co-
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > habitate). Given that, I understand the process
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shall take time to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > learn. Where is the best place to begin?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Dr. Kenneth Gruenfeld
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7416 From: dvgorelov Date: 12/25/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Just starting new 29g tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've joined the group just recently. And the reason, of course, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the new (bought at garage sale actually) 29g tank. I've got a book
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and some basic knowledge (the nitro-cycle and all that). Just started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank with only gravel and water (it is going to be the freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one). I would like to look for the water chem through the nitro-cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (got some tests as well).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The parameters:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 galons, 30'x12'3/4x17'3/4 (~100 liters, 76x32x45 cm)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        small gravel (1/8-1/4', 3-5 mm)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 white light fluorescent bulb (20 W)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        150 cascade Penn-Plax power filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 waterheaters (50 and 75 W)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lung GX500 compressor (two outputs, said to be good for upto 60g)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was thinking to have there (eventually, not at once, of course) 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cherry barbs, pair of coris, couple of pearl and couple of flame
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dwarf guramis. And I would like to have some real plants -- probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not much, just vallisneria, amason sword, cabobma (one or two of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each) and a pair of apple snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does all this make sence at all? Can I have the real plans with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only "dim" lighting of one bulb? Do all those fish mix together? What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is your advice for the novice like me?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks a lot,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dmitry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7417 From: paul helms Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i owuld recommed more than 2 cori cats
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- dvgorelov <gorelov@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've joined the group just recently. And the reason,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of course, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the new (bought at garage sale actually) 29g tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've got a book
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and some basic knowledge (the nitro-cycle and all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that). Just started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank with only gravel and water (it is going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > be the freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one). I would like to look for the water chem
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > through the nitro-cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (got some tests as well).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The parameters:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 galons, 30'x12'3/4x17'3/4 (~100 liters, 76x32x45
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cm)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > small gravel (1/8-1/4', 3-5 mm)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1 white light fluorescent bulb (20 W)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 150 cascade Penn-Plax power filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 2 waterheaters (50 and 75 W)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Lung GX500 compressor (two outputs, said to be good
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > for upto 60g)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was thinking to have there (eventually, not at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > once, of course) 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cherry barbs, pair of coris, couple of pearl and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > couple of flame
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dwarf guramis. And I would like to have some real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plants -- probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not much, just vallisneria, amason sword, cabobma
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (one or two of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each) and a pair of apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Does all this make sence at all? Can I have the real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plans with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only "dim" lighting of one bulb? Do all those fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > mix together? What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is your advice for the novice like me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Thanks a lot,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Dmitry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7418 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Just starting new 29g tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cories do best in shoals of at least 5 or 6.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At ~5", pearl gouramis are too large for a 29g. If you want a centerpiece
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        fish you could have a single angel, maybe a pair of rams, honey or dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gouramis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        6 cherries will be fine. You might also want to consider a school of tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or rasboras. Or even a group of small rainbowfish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you end up needing something for algae a trio of otos or a BN plec would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        do fine.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: "dvgorelov" <gorelov@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I've joined the group just recently. And the reason, of course, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the new (bought at garage sale actually) 29g tank. I've got a book
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and some basic knowledge (the nitro-cycle and all that). Just started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the tank with only gravel and water (it is going to be the freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > one). I would like to look for the water chem through the nitro-cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (got some tests as well).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was thinking to have there (eventually, not at once, of course) 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cherry barbs, pair of coris, couple of pearl and couple of flame
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > dwarf guramis. And I would like to have some real plants -- probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > not much, just vallisneria, amason sword, cabobma (one or two of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > each) and a pair of apple snails.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7419 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [UniQuaria] Just starting new 29g tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I wouldn't risk more than one of the dwarf gouramis, or just one pearl gourami, but not two of each or one of each.  I would not suggest barbs because they are barbs, but if you like the shredded fin look, barbs will be ok.  Cories should be kept in groups.  I suggest 3-5 of one species of cories.  If you keep a pair of apple snails, they will eat your plants.  I would avoid all snails unless you can be made 100% sure that they will not eat your plants.  That will never happen with most snails sold in fish stores that I have seen.  I do think plants is a good idea for your tank.  Make sure you get a new bulb for the tank, the old one is probably out of date and not efficient.  If you really want a lot of fancy plants, you might want to get a new light hood with two lights.  Make sure you have at least a 6500K rating on the new bulb.  You don't really need the air pump, but you can use it to make some nice decorations.  I'm glad you are researching.  Keep that up and read as many books as you can before you buy fish. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've joined the group just recently. And the reason, of course, is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the new (bought at garage sale actually) 29g tank. I've got a book
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and some basic knowledge (the nitro-cycle and all that). Just started
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the tank with only gravel and water (it is going to be the freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one). I would like to look for the water chem through the nitro-cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (got some tests as well).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The parameters:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 galons, 30'x12'3/4x17'3/4 (~100 liters, 76x32x45 cm)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        small gravel (1/8-1/4', 3-5 mm)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 white light fluorescent bulb (20 W)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        150 cascade Penn-Plax power filter
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2 waterheaters (50 and 75 W)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lung GX500 compressor (two outputs, said to be good for upto 60g)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was thinking to have there (eventually, not at once, of course) 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cherry barbs, pair of coris, couple of pearl and couple of flame
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dwarf guramis. And I would like to have some real plants -- probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        not much, just vallisneria, amason sword, cabobma (one or two of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each) and a pair of apple snails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does all this make sence at all? Can I have the real plans with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only "dim" lighting of one bulb? Do all those fish mix together? What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is your advice for the novice like me?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks a lot,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dmitry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7420 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: How long does it take to have fry from the 1st to the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry if the title is confusing I have a 20 gallon tank with guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cory's and the 2 danios that I cycled both my tanks with and a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        frog. I noticed last night at around 9:30 my pregnant guppy sticking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        by herself, sometimes in the corner and other times hiding in a plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I saw one baby drop so I fished it out and put it in the baby breeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        net, than I watched her from the couch (not just staring at her) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watch for anymore babies. Nothing for like 2 hours, so I went to bed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This morning I looked all over the tank and under the breeder grass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and nothing she was still fat and staying just by herself, than about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        12pm I saw her swimming and she looked just a little fat and I found 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        babies under the breeder grass, she looks like she might still have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        few in there and she's been having them since last night. I'm kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        worried about her taking so long to have all her babies. She doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        seem stressed looking but I'm not sure if I should preform a emergency
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        c-section. Hehehe I'm just kidding but any advice would be nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7421 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Just starting new 29g tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I keep cherry barbs as well as belted barbs (P. pentazoa); neither are nippy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I wouldn't risk more than one of the dwarf gouramis, or just one pearl gourami, but not two of each or one of each.  I would not suggest barbs because they are barbs, but if you like the shredded fin look, barbs will be ok.  Cories should be kept in groups.  I suggest 3-5 of one species of cories. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7422 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: signature/Patrick
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've been curious about your signature for some time. You often recommend proper numbers for schooling or shoaling fish, yet your tetras and cories are kept in number much lower. Any particular reason for that? Also, what sort of plec do you keep in your 29g?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not an expert, but not a beginner either. Growing up I helped my dad with his 55g. When I was 15 (20+ years ago) I bought my first betta and have kept fish ever since. I currently have 7 planted tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -community (angels, paradisefish, platies, guppies, loaches)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -'red' community (cherry barbs, betta coccina, belted barbs, cories, ADF)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -two Endler's breeding tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -CA/SA cichlids (angels, blue acara, firemouth, keyholes, L. dorsigera)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Asian biotope (harlequin rasboras, honey gouramis, kuhli loaches, sparkling gouramis)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -dwarf puffer and bumblee goby tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7423 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            For the fish that should be in groups, they had deaths and I have given up on neons and black neons.  Strangely a few have survived longer.  I will be getting more cories soon.  For the pleco, my sister got it when she didn't know better and nobody (the fish store) wants it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I've been curious about your signature for some time. You often recommend proper numbers for schooling or shoaling fish, yet your tetras and cories are kept in number much lower. Any particular reason for that? Also, what sort of plec do you keep in your 29g?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not an expert, but not a beginner either. Growing up I helped my dad with his 55g. When I was 15 (20+ years ago) I bought my first betta and have kept fish ever since. I currently have 7 planted tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -community (angels, paradisefish, platies, guppies, loaches)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -'red' community (cherry barbs, betta coccina, belted barbs, cories, ADF)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -two Endler's breeding tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -CA/SA cichlids (angels, blue acara, firemouth, keyholes, L. dorsigera)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Asian biotope (harlequin rasboras, honey gouramis, kuhli loaches, sparkling gouramis)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -dwarf puffer and bumblee goby tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7424 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK well I have one Chinese algae eater in my community tank. Wondering what would be an option to add with that guy to help him for I am seeing algae and more than he can handle.. do they get territorial should I not add one of the same kind.. What else would work.. I ask this cause my Chinese Algae eater is the most picking and mean fish i have.. he terrorizes the fish more than the fish do each other lol... any ideas.. thanks Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7425 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,  Chinese algae eaters (actually coming from India and Tailand) eat less algae and prefer regular fish food as they get bigger.  They also turn aggressive and territorial towards other fish and especially towards their own kind .  So, do not add another one.  In fact I would recommend trading him in for one or two Otocynclis catfish which are peaceful and do a much better job.  There is a fish similar to the Chinese algae eater (if that's the look you prefer) called the Siamese algae eater or Siamese flying fox (Crossocheilus siamensis) which is peaceful and does a good job at eating algae, but you have to be careful about not getting one of several similar looking and agressive fish that go by the same or similar name.  Those fish are actually Barbs and can be told as being different from their having two sets of barbels (whiskers) and generally their black stripe does not quite extend to the base of the tail.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7426 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            CAE's are liars.  They are from Thailand, not China.  They eat things other than algae.  They are highly aggressive fish killers at worst, and semi-aggressive fish killers at best.  I say stomp him in the mud and get a bristle nose or otto. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        PS: No fish were harmed in the making of this message, except the one in my mind's picture of a CAE being stomped on in the mud.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK well I have one Chinese algae eater in my community tank. Wondering what would be an option to add with that guy to help him for I am seeing algae and more than he can handle.. do they get territorial should I not add one of the same kind.. What else would work.. I ask this cause my Chinese Algae eater is the most picking and mean fish i have.. he terrorizes the fish more than the fish do each other lol... any ideas.. thanks Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7427 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks so much I am going to do some searching on the net to make sure the Chinese one is what I have. Thanks for the help.. can I get both of those kinds at my LFS or do they need to be special ordered.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,  Chinese algae eaters (actually coming from India and Tailand) eat less algae and prefer regular fish food as they get bigger.  They also turn aggressive and territorial towards other fish and especially towards their own kind .  So, do not add another one.  In fact I would recommend trading him in for one or two Otocynclis catfish which are peaceful and do a much better job.  There is a fish similar to the Chinese algae eater (if that's the look you prefer) called the Siamese algae eater or Siamese flying fox (Crossocheilus siamensis) which is peaceful and does a good job at eating algae, but you have to be careful about not getting one of several similar looking and agressive fish that go by the same or similar name.  Those fish are actually Barbs and can be told as being different from their having two sets of barbels (whiskers) and generally their black stripe does not quite extend to the base of the tail.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7428 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        hey ray. thanks for the help so i did some research and found the pic of the Chinese algae eater and Siamese one.. neither is what i have oddly enough... so im like what is this in my tank.. it has a suction cup for a mouth and long green mostly body.. i cant find a pic or even a link to anything about the otocycnis.. maybe it is spelled wrong.. not sure.. what do you think shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,  Chinese algae eaters (actually coming from India and Tailand) eat less algae and prefer regular fish food as they get bigger.  They also turn aggressive and territorial towards other fish and especially towards their own kind .  So, do not add another one.  In fact I would recommend trading him in for one or two Otocynclis catfish which are peaceful and do a much better job.  There is a fish similar to the Chinese algae eater (if that's the look you prefer) called the Siamese algae eater or Siamese flying fox (Crossocheilus siamensis) which is peaceful and does a good job at eating algae, but you have to be careful about not getting one of several similar looking and agressive fish that go by the same or similar name.  Those fish are actually Barbs and can be told as being different from their having two sets of barbels (whiskers) and generally their black stripe does not quite extend to the base of the tail.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7429 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        omg like kill the fish you mean... he isn't that bad had him a year and i think she just kinda is a pushy fish bu never like hurt any of them that i saw.. and never had any like damaged.... and i know the algae eaters eat more than algae i feed them just as well i just figure i should get one or maybe two other ones to help with things... what is a bristle nose or otto.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            CAE's are liars.  They are from Thailand, not China.  They eat things other than algae.  They are highly aggressive fish killers at worst, and semi-aggressive fish killers at best.  I say stomp him in the mud and get a bristle nose or otto. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7430 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK funny enough I did a search for otto and got my catfish lol apparently this whole time I thought I had something I didnt.. And I have the otto one.. so now my question changes... what can i put with my otto to help with algae and not create havoc in my aquarium... as stated before he is a bit testy with the other fish... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7431 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK so why does the Chinese AE and the otto look so dang similar now I cant decide what I have... this is nuts... im leaning more towards the Chinese cause originally I thought that was the name of it... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7432 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: CAE/oto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Otos are small reaching ~2" and are peaceful. CAEs are much larger (I've read up to 12"), can become territorial with age, and there are differing opinions on their usefulness as algae eaters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK so why does the Chinese AE and the otto look so dang similar now I cant decide what I have... this is nuts... im leaning more towards the Chinese cause originally I thought that was the name of it... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7433 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/26/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks well mine is i would say like 5 inches 6 maybe.. and it has been or had an attitude since the day i brought it home.. i don't think it has gotten worse... i have heard that you get a lot less territorial stuff if you change up your tank often.. i wouldn't say I do it often I guess once every few months... so not sure if that is mattering much... I went and looked at a lot of pics all they were all so similar of the Otto's and CAE... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Otos are small reaching ~2" and are peaceful. CAEs are much larger (I've read up to 12"), can become territorial with age, and there are differing opinions on their usefulness as algae eaters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        OK so why does the Chinese AE and the otto look so dang similar now I cant decide what I have... this is nuts... im leaning more towards the Chinese cause originally I thought that was the name of it... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7434 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ottos don't really look much like CAE's. can you post the pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what you've found? ottos are very small little fish, and very shy, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tend to get bullied without hiding places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 27, 2004, at 1:10 AM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > OK so why does the Chinese AE and the otto look so dang similar now I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cant decide what I have... this is nuts... im leaning more towards the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Chinese cause originally I thought that was the name of it... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7435 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, when your looking at pics online ou don't really get a idea of size... I am looking more at coloring body structure and features.... So with the pics I was looking at they looked so similar I couldn't tell the difference..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i cant get the pics from those sites.. but here is the link to the otto one.. i was looking at the last pic on this page.. it looks exactly the same as mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         and this one looks exactly like mine too this is the chinese onethey both look the same .. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tropical-fish.net/Scavengers/chinese_algae_eater.htm  that is the link if the pic doesnt show up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ottos don't really look much like CAE's. can you post the pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what you've found? ottos are very small little fish, and very shy, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tend to get bullied without hiding places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7436 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with photos like this, where you can't tell the size, it sometimes help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to pay attention to things like markings on the finnage, fin shape and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        relative size, body patterns and markings, head shapes etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 27, 2004, at 3:47 AM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, when your looking at pics online ou don't really get a idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > size... I am looking more at coloring body structure and features....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So with the pics I was looking at they looked so similar I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tell the difference..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i cant get the pics from those sites.. but here is the link to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > otto one.. i was looking at the last pic on this page.. it looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exactly the same as mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/catfish/Otocinclus.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <algae_eater.jpg> and this one looks exactly like mine too this is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chinese onethey both look the same .. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://tropical-fish.net/Scavengers/chinese_algae_eater.htm%c2%a0 that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the link if the pic doesnt show up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ottos don't really look much like CAE's. can you post the pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what you've found? ottos are very small little fish, and very shy, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tend to get bullied without hiding places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7437 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: CAE/oto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just by size alone I can say you don't have an oto there. I've never seen otos profiled larger than 2"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks well mine is i would say like 5 inches 6 maybe.. and it has been or had an attitude since the day i brought it home.. i don't think it has gotten worse... i have heard that you get a lot less territorial stuff if you change up your tank often.. i wouldn't say I do it often I guess once every few months... so not sure if that is mattering much... I went and looked at a lot of pics all they were all so similar of the Otto's and CAE... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Otos are small reaching ~2" and are peaceful. CAEs are much larger (I've read up to 12"), can become territorial with age, and there are differing opinions on their usefulness as algae eaters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7438 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pattern on a fish is not always the best way to Identify it. Chinese algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eater is a cyprinid (Barb like) fish while Otto is a plec like catfish. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        difference is evident in their scales. CAE has barb like scales and Otto has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        corydoras or plec like armoured scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chinese algae eaters come in various colours and pattern. But if yours is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive, then it is the CAE. They are less aggressive when small and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grow to their full potential size and as they grow, they become more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive eating the slime coat on other fish and reducing their immunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is not a fish that I would want to keep with any of mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: amalthea23 [mailto:amalthea23@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 27 December 2004 08:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] chi...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with photos like this, where you can't tell the size, it sometimes help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to pay attention to things like markings on the finnage, fin shape and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        relative size, body patterns and markings, head shapes etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 27, 2004, at 3:47 AM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, when your looking at pics online ou don't really get a idea of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > size... I am looking more at coloring body structure and features....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So with the pics I was looking at they looked so similar I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tell the difference..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i cant get the pics from those sites.. but here is the link to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > otto one.. i was looking at the last pic on this page.. it looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > exactly the same as mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/catfish/Otocinclus.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <algae_eater.jpg> and this one looks exactly like mine too this is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > chinese onethey both look the same .. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > http://tropical-fish.net/Scavengers/chinese_algae_eater.htm%c2%a0 that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the link if the pic doesnt show up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ottos don't really look much like CAE's. can you post the pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what you've found? ottos are very small little fish, and very shy, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tend to get bullied without hiding places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7439 From: freedombell2002 Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: How long does it take to have fry from the 1st to the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        HI

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when my swordtail mama had her babies she had about 4 in two hours,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        then she waited about another 8 hours and had the rest about 25 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        so. By the way not sure if you know but your dwarf frog will love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        those babys. when my babies were about 10 days I took them out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeds net and put them in my 5gallon were my frog lives and in about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        30 mins he had ate 10 of them. I felt so bad, but I still ended up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with around 15 of them to give away when they were about 6 to 8 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        old. I hope this helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sherrie


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "mommy2acdhsurvivor"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sorry if the title is confusing I have a 20 gallon tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cory's and the 2 danios that I cycled both my tanks with and a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > frog. I noticed last night at around 9:30 my pregnant guppy sticking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by herself, sometimes in the corner and other times hiding in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I saw one baby drop so I fished it out and put it in the baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        breeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > net, than I watched her from the couch (not just staring at her) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > watch for anymore babies. Nothing for like 2 hours, so I went to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        bed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > This morning I looked all over the tank and under the breeder grass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and nothing she was still fat and staying just by herself, than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 12pm I saw her swimming and she looked just a little fat and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        found 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > babies under the breeder grass, she looks like she might still have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few in there and she's been having them since last night. I'm kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > worried about her taking so long to have all her babies. She doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > seem stressed looking but I'm not sure if I should preform a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        emergency
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > c-section. Hehehe I'm just kidding but any advice would be nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7440 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well crap... i have had it a year do you think it would get worse or has it peaked... i mean it isn't bad now but i guess i can just not add anything and see if it gets any worse.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pattern on a fish is not always the best way to Identify it. Chinese algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eater is a cyprinid (Barb like) fish while Otto is a plec like catfish. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        difference is evident in their scales. CAE has barb like scales and Otto has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        corydoras or plec like armoured scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chinese algae eaters come in various colours and pattern. But if yours is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive, then it is the CAE. They are less aggressive when small and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grow to their full potential size and as they grow, they become more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive eating the slime coat on other fish and reducing their immunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is not a fish that I would want to keep with any of mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7441 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have not kept them ever so cannot be too sure of their aggression. But I have heard people say that a CAE 2-3 yr old or older is capable of digging a hole in a host fish through the scales by trying to suck on the slime coat. Adding another may not be a good idea as once they have established territories, they will continue to harass the other fish within their territory. They do get upto 30cm easily even in a 24” tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 27 December 2004 21:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] chi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        well crap... i have had it a year do you think it would get worse or has it peaked... i mean it isn't bad now but i guess i can just not add anything and see if it gets any worse.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Pattern on a fish is not always the best way to Identify it. Chinese algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eater is a cyprinid (Barb like) fish while Otto is a plec like catfish. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        difference is evident in their scales. CAE has barb like scales and Otto has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        corydoras or plec like armoured scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chinese algae eaters come in various colours and pattern. But if yours is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive, then it is the CAE. They are less aggressive when small and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        grow to their full potential size and as they grow, they become more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        aggressive eating the slime coat on other fish and reducing their immunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It is not a fish that I would want to keep with any of mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7442 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shannon, i have kept many many cae's, and i have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        say that they do become very aggressive. 2-3 years is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nto quite accurate, it is more like 6-12 months before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they become so. they are excellent algae eaters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which they have not been credited here for. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem is thath they are very active, and can clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an entire tank green algae in a matter of a few days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at which time, every one has been correct in that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        begin to eat fish food, and when they can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough they will begin to suck the slime coat off of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the other tank mates. this aggression usually starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when they hit about 3 inches, and they will reach 6-7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inche sin size. great for a temporary clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crew,but a pain in the ass to catch and get out if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- Nimish Mathur <nimmat4@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have not kept them ever so cannot be too sure of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > their aggression. But I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have heard people say that a CAE 2-3 yr old or older
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is capable of digging a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hole in a host fish through the scales by trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > suck on the slime coat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Adding another may not be a good idea as once they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have established
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > territories, they will continue to harass the other
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish within their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > territory. They do get upto 30cm easily even in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 24" tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: agentscullyeyore@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: 27 December 2004 21:02
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > AquaticLife ] chi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well crap... i have had it a year do you think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would get worse or has it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaked... i mean it isn't bad now but i guess i can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just not add anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and see if it gets any worse.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Pattern on a fish is not always the best way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Identify it. Chinese algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eater is a cyprinid (Barb like) fish while Otto is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plec like catfish. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > difference is evident in their scales. CAE has barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like scales and Otto has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > corydoras or plec like armoured scales.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Chinese algae eaters come in various colours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pattern. But if yours is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aggressive, then it is the CAE. They are less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aggressive when small and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grow to their full potential size and as they grow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they become more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aggressive eating the slime coat on other fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reducing their immunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It is not a fish that I would want to keep with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7443 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they get worse as they get bigger and need more food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless you have tons of algae every day, they will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eventually go after your fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > well crap... i have had it a year do you think it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > would get worse or has it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > peaked... i mean it isn't bad now but i guess i can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > just not add anything and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > see if it gets any worse.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Pattern on a fish is not always the best way to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Identify it. Chinese algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > eater is a cyprinid (Barb like) fish while Otto is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plec like catfish. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > difference is evident in their scales. CAE has barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like scales and Otto has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > corydoras or plec like armoured scales.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Chinese algae eaters come in various colours and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pattern. But if yours is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aggressive, then it is the CAE. They are less
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aggressive when small and do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grow to their full potential size and as they grow,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they become more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > aggressive eating the slime coat on other fish and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > reducing their immunity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > It is not a fish that I would want to keep with any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > of mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7444 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this pic is a cae, ottos are more silver and black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than green tinted, and the ottos have a flatter head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Well, when your looking at pics online ou don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really get a idea of size...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I am looking more at coloring body structure and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > features.... So with the pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I was looking at they looked so similar I couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tell the difference..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i cant get the pics from those sites.. but here is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the link to the otto one..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i was looking at the last pic on this page.. it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > looks exactly the same as mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/catfish/Otocinclus.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and this one looks exactly like mine too this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the chinese onethey both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > look the same ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tropical-fish.net/Scavengers/chinese_algae_eater.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that is the link
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if the pic doesnt show up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ottos don't really look much like CAE's. can you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > post the pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > what you've found? ottos are very small little fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and very shy, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tend to get bullied without hiding places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7445 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh this is not good... I one time saw his holding down my gourami ... which  I think is it fav fish to bother and my gourami today does not look so hot.. so i think i will call up the pet store.... thanks for that... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have not kept them ever so cannot be too sure of their aggression. But I have heard people say that a CAE 2-3 yr old or older is capable of digging a hole in a host fish through the scales by trying to suck on the slime coat. Adding another may not be a good idea as once they have established territories, they will continue to harass the other fish within their territory. They do get upto 30cm easily even in a 24” tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7446 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So what is the most productive algae remover fish that you know off... if I get rid of him what would be the best to get .. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7447 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ok well taking all of this into consideration i guess i should watch him and my gourami.. i just hate to get rid of him but i hate to have my gourami upset either... i have seen him once try stucking at the gourami... but then when i don't see things that scares me too... my tank has been very clean.. I got a higher powered light and then my filter died so I got a lot of red algae... I have scraped it out but fear it I going to come back till I get it out of the tank as I read scraping it only moves it... what are your feelings on that.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shannon, i have kept many many cae's, and i have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        say that they do become very aggressive.  2-3 years is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nto quite accurate, it is more like 6-12 months before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they become so.  they are excellent algae eaters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which they have not been credited here for.  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem is thath they are very active, and can clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an entire tank green algae in a matter of a few days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at which time, every one has been correct in that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        begin to eat fish food, and when they can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough they will begin to suck the slime coat off of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the other tank mates.  this aggression usually starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when they hit about 3 inches, and they will reach 6-7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inche sin size.  great for a temporary clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crew,but a pain in the ass to catch and get out if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7448 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: algae eaters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What size tank is it and what is your current stock? My favorite is a BN pleco, interesting looking fish, not too large and I've found they do a great job with algae. They can be kept singly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Otos are a bit more sensitive and like to have company, at least a trio. They are very good with algae as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So what is the most productive algae remover fish that you know off... if I get rid of him what would be the best to get .. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7449 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So would me adding an algae wafer in the tank every few days help to make sure he is getting enough of what he needs.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        shannon, i have kept many many cae's, and i have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        say that they do become very aggressive.  2-3 years is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        nto quite accurate, it is more like 6-12 months before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they become so.  they are excellent algae eaters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        which they have not been credited here for.  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        problem is thath they are very active, and can clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        an entire tank green algae in a matter of a few days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        at which time, every one has been correct in that they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        begin to eat fish food, and when they can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        enough they will begin to suck the slime coat off of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the other tank mates.  this aggression usually starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when they hit about 3 inches, and they will reach 6-7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inche sin size.  great for a temporary clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        crew,but a pain in the ass to catch and get out if the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7450 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yea mine is more green.. So I have decided he is a CAE... just need to get figured out what to do with him or my tank.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this pic is a cae, ottos are more silver and black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than green tinted, and the ottos have a flatter head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7451 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ottos, Bristle nose plecos, etc. Do you really have an algae problem or it is just for the safe side? If you do, then what type of algae is it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 27 December 2004 23:14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] chi...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So what is the most productive algae remover fish that you know off... if I get rid of him what would be the best to get .. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7452 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, my tank is 20 gallons... 3 bleeding heart tetras, 1 blue dwarf gourami, 3 harqlins, 2 zebra danios, 2 hatchet fish, I neon tetra, 2 corys 6 dwarf frogs, zebra botia.. i think that is it lol... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What size tank is it and what is your current stock? My favorite is a BN pleco, interesting looking fish, not too large and I've found they do a great job with algae. They can be kept singly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Otos are a bit more sensitive and like to have company, at least a trio. They are very good with algae as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7453 From: mommy2acdhsurvivor Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: How long does it take to have fry from the 1st to the last
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for answering, this morning I found 3 more. And now she looks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        done, wow 2 days of having babies is alot. About the frog I had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        african clawed frog in the tank a few weeks ago but one morning I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        noticed him with a fish body sticking out of his mouth, I chased him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        around with a net till he spit out my largest and fastest danio. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        danio is still alive (it's tough I cycled both my tanks with him and a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        buddy that are still alive) and 2 others that died of ick). The acf is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        in a little tank alone til I can trade him back at the pet store. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        babies will stay in the breeder net till they start over crowding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I had 2 endler babies from a few months ago but they are still so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tiny, than 11 guppies a few weeks old, and than these new babies I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        think I found about 8 or so. I do have a 10 gallon housing a catfish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (wild caught) and a unknown fish that I could move into a different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        home and use it for a fry grow out tank if I need to. My first fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        was huge I can't believe I only found 11 babies alot must of been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        eatin or sucked up in the filter. I plan on trading the pet store for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        food as they get bigger, I have snakes and salamanders. Well thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for writing she seems to be better now. See ya Melanie

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ps. I keep the breeder net covered so the frog can't climb in and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        feast!!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > HI
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when my swordtail mama had her babies she had about 4 in two hours,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > then she waited about another 8 hours and had the rest about 25 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so. By the way not sure if you know but your dwarf frog will love
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > those babys. when my babies were about 10 days I took them out the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > breeds net and put them in my 5gallon were my frog lives and in about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30 mins he had ate 10 of them. I felt so bad, but I still ended up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > with around 15 of them to give away when they were about 6 to 8 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > old. I hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sherrie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- In
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "mommy2acdhsurvivor"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > <CK147@H...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Sorry if the title is confusing I have a 20 gallon tank with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > cory's and the 2 danios that I cycled both my tanks with and a dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > frog. I noticed last night at around 9:30 my pregnant guppy sticking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > by herself, sometimes in the corner and other times hiding in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I saw one baby drop so I fished it out and put it in the baby
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > breeder
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > net, than I watched her from the couch (not just staring at her) to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > watch for anymore babies. Nothing for like 2 hours, so I went to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > bed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > This morning I looked all over the tank and under the breeder grass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > and nothing she was still fat and staying just by herself, than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > 12pm I saw her swimming and she looked just a little fat and I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > found 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > babies under the breeder grass, she looks like she might still have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > few in there and she's been having them since last night. I'm kinda
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > worried about her taking so long to have all her babies. She doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > seem stressed looking but I'm not sure if I should preform a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > emergency
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > c-section. Hehehe I'm just kidding but any advice would be nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7454 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        most lfs will take them and put them in cichlid tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when they are larger....they seem to do fine there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        from my experience
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Yea mine is more green.. So I have decided he is a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > CAE... just need to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > figured out what to do with him or my tank.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > this pic is a cae, ottos are more silver and black
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > than green tinted, and the ottos have a flatter head
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7455 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it may help a bit......but sinking carnivore pellets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or shrimp pellets would be more along the lines of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their likes, but if they get too used to that, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will not eat algae. maybe once a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So would me adding an algae wafer in the tank every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > few days help to make
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > sure he is getting enough of what he needs.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shannon, i have kept many many cae's, and i have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > say that they do become very aggressive. 2-3 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nto quite accurate, it is more like 6-12 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they become so. they are excellent algae eaters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which they have not been credited here for. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem is thath they are very active, and can clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > an entire tank green algae in a matter of a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at which time, every one has been correct in that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > begin to eat fish food, and when they can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enough they will begin to suck the slime coat off of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the other tank mates. this aggression usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when they hit about 3 inches, and they will reach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6-7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inche sin size. great for a temporary clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crew,but a pain in the ass to catch and get out if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7456 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        red algaes are generally only found in contaminated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water or those high in nitrates. i would do small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5-10% water changes weekly or bi weekly for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you scrape it, a back filter will trap it and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will be disposed of when ads are changed as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ok well taking all of this into consideration i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guess i should watch him and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my gourami.. i just hate to get rid of him but i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hate to have my gourami upset
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > either... i have seen him once try stucking at the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gourami... but then when i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > don't see things that scares me too... my tank has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > been very clean.. I got a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > higher powered light and then my filter died so I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > got a lot of red algae... I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have scraped it out but fear it I going to come back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > till I get it out of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank as I read scraping it only moves it... what are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your feelings on that..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shannon, i have kept many many cae's, and i have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > say that they do become very aggressive. 2-3 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > nto quite accurate, it is more like 6-12 months
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they become so. they are excellent algae eaters,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > which they have not been credited here for. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem is thath they are very active, and can clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > an entire tank green algae in a matter of a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > days,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > at which time, every one has been correct in that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > begin to eat fish food, and when they can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > enough they will begin to suck the slime coat off of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the other tank mates. this aggression usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > starts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > when they hit about 3 inches, and they will reach
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6-7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inche sin size. great for a temporary clean up
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > crew,but a pain in the ass to catch and get out if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7457 From: paul helms Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i generally still stcik with plain old plecos. yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they grow large, but it takes a long time. they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only 3-4 bucks and can almost always be traded in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your lfs for a smaller one or at least partial creit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is no reason you should not be able to get a 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inch pleco in exchange for a 5-6 inch one, as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        price goes up top about 12 each at that size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        currently i have 2 5 inch plecos (one is waiting for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new home across town to develop more algae) and 1 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1/2 inch otto in a 30 gallon tank. the otto is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good at cleaning my live plants and the plecos do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So what is the most productive algae remover fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that you know off... if I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > get rid of him what would be the best to get ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7458 From: Steve Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A quick search, and I did not come up with any real good photos, but for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        more information, try
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/loricari/otocincl/g_thumbs.htm and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.otocinclus.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Both should give you more than enough info, and, perhaps, help you determine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whether or not you really have an oto.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not mentioned in this thread, also, is that you should buy several otos at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        time. It is not so much that they are gregarious fish, like corys, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        each fish does not eat much algae in a day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: agentscullyeyore@... [mailto:agentscullyeyore@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 3:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        AquaticLife ] chi...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, when your looking at pics online ou don't really get a idea of size...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am looking more at coloring body structure and features.... So with the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        pics I was looking at they looked so similar I couldn't tell the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        difference..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i cant get the pics from those sites.. but here is the link to the otto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one.. i was looking at the last pic on this page.. it looks exactly the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        as mine

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://badmanstropicalfish.com/gallery/catfish/Otocinclus.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and this one looks exactly like mine too this is the chinese onethey both
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        look the same ..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://tropical-fish.net/Scavengers/chinese_algae_eater.htm that is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        link if the pic doesnt show up

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ottos don't really look much like CAE's. can you post the pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        what you've found? ottos are very small little fish, and very shy, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tend to get bullied without hiding places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7459 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is it common for my betta a she to chase off the guppies ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7460 From: dvgorelov Date: 12/27/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Just starting new 29g tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks a lot for the advices!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Will consider some tetras/rasboras. No pearl gouramis. btw, what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is "rams"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Right now I am in the water chem: apparently have 7.6 pH tub water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        with 4dKH (=72 ppm) and 7dGH (=125 ppm). Does it sounds right for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cherrys/dwarf gouramis? I think neon tetras would prefer softer water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        though. What kind of tetras/rasboras would like this high pH?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Dmitry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Dan &
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Theresa" <dtmergl@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cories do best in shoals of at least 5 or 6.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > At ~5", pearl gouramis are too large for a 29g. If you want a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        centerpiece
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fish you could have a single angel, maybe a pair of rams, honey or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        dwarf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gouramis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 6 cherries will be fine. You might also want to consider a school
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of tetras
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > or rasboras. Or even a group of small rainbowfish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > If you end up needing something for algae a trio of otos or a BN
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        plec would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > do fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7461 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is it common for my betta a she to chase off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7462 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, until I left for a week and my filter had broke I came back to tons of red algea and since then i have to clean a lot just to keep it at bay.. so that is my dilemma... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ottos, Bristle nose plecos, etc. Do you really have an algae problem or it is just for the safe side? If you do, then what type of algae is it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7463 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, then maybe ill just stick to my shrimp pellets I always put one or two more in there just for him and the corys.... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it may help a bit......but sinking carnivore pellets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        or shrimp pellets would be more along the lines of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        their likes, but if they get too used to that, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will not eat algae.  maybe once a week
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7464 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks for that i have been doing the changes every week.... and i have checked my water and each time my nitrates are at zero i know that is odd but that is where they come up at.... but i will do a few more changes and clean out my filter.. i don't want that stuff any more lol shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        red algaes are generally only found in contaminated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        water or those high in nitrates.  i would do small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        5-10% water changes weekly or bi weekly for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you scrape it, a back filter will trap it and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will be disposed of when ads are changed as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7465 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So then any pleco would do.. and a pleco and otto can reside together.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i generally still stcik with plain old plecos.  yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they grow large, but it takes a long time.  they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only 3-4 bucks and can almost always be traded in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your lfs for a smaller one or at least partial creit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is no reason you should not be able to get a 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inch pleco in exchange for a 5-6 inch one, as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        price goes up top about 12 each at that size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        currently i have 2 5 inch plecos (one is waiting for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new home across town to develop more algae) and 1 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1/2 inch otto in a 30 gallon tank.  the otto is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good at cleaning my live plants and the plecos do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7466 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will she stop paul ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 12:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is it common for my betta a she to chase off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7467 From: Nimish Mathur Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Very unlikely that she will stop. Betas even females are aggressive (Females are a lot less aggressive) but the idea of having to chase a male around is relished even by them. Male guppies ideally look like a male or a competition to them and female betas being faster then the males can cause more damage. Worse if they realize that the long flowing tails of the guppies is tasty.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Nim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: colleen and theresa [mailto:crcarnevale@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: 28 December 2004 13:54
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will she stop paul ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 12:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Is it common for my betta a she to chase off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > guppies ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://my.yahoo.com




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7468 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I would oppose any pleco that grows over 4 inches in anything smaller than a 55 gallon.  I thought I would trade mine in when it got too big for my 29 gallon, and discovered nobody wants a 5 inch pleco in my area.  I have considered killing it several times, the dog might like a catfish meal (this is a joke, by the way).  It knocks over everything when it swims, but it has done that since I got it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Date: 12/28/04 04:42:36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] chi...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So then any pleco would do.. and a pleco and otto can reside together.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i generally still stcik with plain old plecos.  yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they grow large, but it takes a long time.  they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        only 3-4 bucks and can almost always be traded in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        your lfs for a smaller one or at least partial creit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        there is no reason you should not be able to get a 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inch pleco in exchange for a 5-6 inch one, as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        price goes up top about 12 each at that size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        currently i have 2 5 inch plecos (one is waiting for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        new home across town to develop more algae) and 1 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1/2 inch otto in a 30 gallon tank.  the otto is really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        good at cleaning my live plants and the plecos do the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        glass.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7469 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So then I shouldn't get a pleco.... you would think something that is having that many accidents would be like bruised lol..... so then no pleco in my tank only a otto...  this is very limiting isn't it lol shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I would oppose any pleco that grows over 4 inches in anything smaller than a 55 gallon.  I thought I would trade mine in when it got too big for my 29 gallon, and discovered nobody wants a 5 inch pleco in my area.  I have considered killing it several times, the dog might like a catfish meal (this is a joke, by the way).  It knocks over everything when it swims, but it has done that since I got it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7470 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have never had a pleco damage anything in 12 years,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and it takes a really long time for them to grow over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 inches if buy them at 2 inches. check with your lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to see if they will take them in larger. the one i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        work at in ca takes them up to 20 inches or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So then I shouldn't get a pleco.... you would think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > something that is having
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that many accidents would be like bruised lol.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > so then no pleco in my tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only a otto... this is very limiting isn't it lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I would oppose any pleco that grows over 4 inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in anything smaller than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a 55 gallon. I thought I would trade mine in when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it got too big for my 29
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gallon, and discovered nobody wants a 5 inch pleco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in my area. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > considered killing it several times, the dog might
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > like a catfish meal (this is a joke,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > by the way). It knocks over everything when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > swims, but it has done that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > since I got it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7471 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no, if you have an agressive one, she will stay that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way. she is probably thinking they are small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        competition with their brighter colors and markings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything with pretty fins, as well as fin nippers are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a bad idea with bettas. you can do gourami, may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras, mollies, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will she stop paul ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 12:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > yes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Is it common for my betta a she to chase off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > guppies ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7472 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes, if you get the ones that grow larger, just view
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        them asa maid that can be replaced, rather than a pet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        when you feel they have outgrown the tank they need
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to go. when the plecos get larger, they get a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        lazy, so they really need a tank that is much larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        than them in the end, but a baby one should be fine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        for 2 years in your 29 gallon....i think that is what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > So then any pleco would do.. and a pleco and otto
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > can reside together..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i generally still stcik with plain old plecos. yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > they grow large, but it takes a long time. they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > only 3-4 bucks and can almost always be traded in at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > your lfs for a smaller one or at least partial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > creit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there is no reason you should not be able to get a 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inch pleco in exchange for a 5-6 inch one, as they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > price goes up top about 12 each at that size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > currently i have 2 5 inch plecos (one is waiting for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > new home across town to develop more algae) and 1 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 1/2 inch otto in a 30 gallon tank. the otto is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > good at cleaning my live plants and the plecos do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > glass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7473 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the ke is not to do too much too fast. if you do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will wipe out your biology and once you slow down on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cleaning you will feel the effects. 0 nitrates is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        necessarily healthy, as most tanks will operate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        between 10 and 40 ppm safely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > thanks for that i have been doing the changes every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > week.... and i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > checked my water and each time my nitrates are at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > zero i know that is odd but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > is where they come up at.... but i will do a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > more changes and clean out my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.. i don't want that stuff any more lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > red algaes are generally only found in contaminated
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > water or those high in nitrates. i would do small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 5-10% water changes weekly or bi weekly for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > if you scrape it, a back filter will trap it and it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will be disposed of when ads are changed as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7474 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        she never acted agressive till now she isnt hurting them just chasing them off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no, if you have an agressive one, she will stay that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        way.  she is probably thinking they are small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        competition with their brighter colors and markings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anything with pretty fins, as well as fin nippers are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a bad idea with bettas.  you can do gourami, may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        tetras, mollies, etc
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > will she stop paul ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 12:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   yes,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > Is it common for my betta a she to chase off the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > guppies ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7475 From: Carly Smith Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: CAE's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have an assortment of algae eaters in my 75 gal planted tank, mostly because those funny looking fish are really starting to grow on me! The tank came with 3 otos, though lately I have only seen two, they do an awesome job at cleaning plants like someone else mentioned. I then moved my CAE and SAE from another tank into the 75gal. I bought them both as CAE's, but as they got bigger it is very evident they are not. I have found this site http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ to be very helpful in determining what I have. They are both about 2.5" now and have their own territory, but I haven't noticed them chasing the other fish. I have a reg pleco in my Oscar tank who is about 7" and a cleaning machine, so I decided I needed plecos in the 75 gal, but didn't want any big ones. So after a day of searching every single fish store I found a bristlenose who is the cutest fish you could ever find. He is nocturnal in every sense of the word except occasionally at the e
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vening feed. I think he does a good job, but have never really seen him clean much, am hoping he does it at night. I have since found a clown pleco, who I think might even be cuter than the bristlenose, and I think I have an oddball, because everything I have read says how shy they are, and I can find this guy at least once a day. He sticks mostly to wood and sometimes does some ground work. I also have an albino pleco which I was told would not get big...but I have a feeling it will. No biggie, he may get switched to teh oscar tank when he is much larger, if he gets much larger. He is always on the move, through the entire day he is stuck to wall somewhere cleaning up....I would say he is the busiest of the plecos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was concerned that with all these algae eaters they wouldn't be getting enough food because they had the tank cleaned up (other than the blue green algae which I took care of with some fungus meds...tank looks oh so much better now!) and not much algae gets a chance to grow in there. They do get algae wafers, but what I found to be the best treat for them is vegetables! The CAE particularly likes cucumbers and I have to put about three chunks in there so he doesn't claim them all. I generally put three 1" thick pieces in, and within a day and a half every scrap of cuke is gone. Anyways, just another idea for feeding your CAE and keeping him away from your fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7476 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i don't know what it is.. if it is my water or my plants with what i have but i am always had 0 nitrates... no i don't ever do things all at once or too quickly i am way burned out on water changes so they'll happen bu not more than 3 ever 2 weeks.. Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the ke is not to do too much too fast.  if you do it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        will wipe out your biology and once you slow down on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cleaning you will feel the effects.  0 nitrates is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        necessarily healthy, as most tanks will operate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        between 10 and 40 ppm safely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7477 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks carly you have been an extreme help.. and you have my dream set up it sounds like... I feel like I want to be your best friend instantly and come over and watch your tanks all day long lol.... But really I appreciated the help and will gets some cucs on my next visit to the store... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ps im also thinking about the bristle nose I think ill go see what the pet store has and go from there since there are only two stores I will buy fish at now.. and I think one of them has mostly salt water...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have an assortment of algae eaters in my 75 gal planted tank, mostly because those funny looking fish are really starting to grow on me!  The tank came with 3 otos, though lately I have only seen two, they do an awesome job at cleaning plants like someone else mentioned.  I then moved my CAE and SAE from another tank into the 75gal.  I bought them both as CAE's, but as they got bigger it is very evident they are not.  I have found this site http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ to be very helpful in determining what I have.  They are both about 2.5" now and have their own territory, but I haven't noticed them chasing the other fish.  I have a reg pleco in my Oscar tank who is about 7" and a cleaning machine, so I decided I needed plecos in the 75 gal, but didn't want any big ones.  So after a day of searching every single fish store I found a bristlenose who is the cutest fish you could ever find.  He is nocturnal in every sense of the word except occasionally at the e
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vening feed.  I think he does a good job, but have never really seen him clean much, am hoping he does it at night.  I have since found a clown pleco, who I think might even be cuter than the bristlenose, and I think I have an oddball, because everything I have read says how shy they are, and I can find this guy at least once a day.  He sticks mostly to wood and sometimes does some ground work.  I also have an albino pleco which I was told would not get big...but I have a feeling it will.  No biggie, he may get switched to teh oscar tank when he is much larger, if he gets much larger.  He is always on the move, through the entire day he is stuck to wall somewhere cleaning up....I would say he is the busiest of the plecos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was concerned that with all these algae eaters they wouldn't be getting enough food because they had the tank cleaned up (other than the blue green algae which I took care of with some fungus meds...tank looks oh so much better now!) and not much algae gets a chance to grow in there.  They do get algae wafers, but what I found to be the best treat for them is vegetables!  The CAE particularly likes cucumbers and I have to put about three chunks in there so he doesn't claim them all.  I generally put three 1" thick pieces in, and within a day and a half every scrap of cuke is gone.  Anyways, just another idea for feeding your CAE and keeping him away from your fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7478 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What kind of weird plecos do you have? :)  Mine grew from about 3 inches to about 5 inches in one year in a 10 gallon tank, and has grown another inch in my 29 gallon.  Even now in my 29 gallon it pulls up plants, turns over decorations, and occasionally tries to knock off the lid.  From what I have read, that is normal.  Maybe you don't have common plecos.  There are several that don't get more than 6 inches, and some that don't get to 5 inches, like the bristle nose.  There is also a hillstream loach.  The main problem with getting a temporary pleco is that you might not be able to give it away when it gets too big.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i have never had a pleco damage anything in 12 years,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and it takes a really long time for them to grow over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        4 inches if buy them at 2 inches.  check with your lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to see if they will take them in larger.  the one i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        work at in ca takes them up to 20 inches or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7479 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Wow yea I looked at that site and your right it is great is showing the differences.. .loved it.. hope others saw it as well.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have an assortment of algae eaters in my 75 gal planted tank, mostly because those funny looking fish are really starting to grow on me!  The tank came with 3 otos, though lately I have only seen two, they do an awesome job at cleaning plants like someone else mentioned.  I then moved my CAE and SAE from another tank into the 75gal.  I bought them both as CAE's, but as they got bigger it is very evident they are not.  I have found this site http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ to be very helpful in determining what I have.  They are both about 2.5" now and have their own territory, but I haven't noticed them chasing the other fish.  I have a reg pleco in my Oscar tank who is about 7" and a cleaning machine, so I decided I needed plecos in the 75 gal, but didn't want any big ones.  So after a day of searching every single fish store I found a bristlenose who is the cutest fish you could ever find.  He is nocturnal in every sense of the word except occasionally at the e
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        vening feed.  I think he does a good job, but have never really seen him clean much, am hoping he does it at night.  I have since found a clown pleco, who I think might even be cuter than the bristlenose, and I think I have an oddball, because everything I have read says how shy they are, and I can find this guy at least once a day.  He sticks mostly to wood and sometimes does some ground work.  I also have an albino pleco which I was told would not get big...but I have a feeling it will.  No biggie, he may get switched to teh oscar tank when he is much larger, if he gets much larger.  He is always on the move, through the entire day he is stuck to wall somewhere cleaning up....I would say he is the busiest of the plecos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was concerned that with all these algae eaters they wouldn't be getting enough food because they had the tank cleaned up (other than the blue green algae which I took care of with some fungus meds...tank looks oh so much better now!) and not much algae gets a chance to grow in there.  They do get algae wafers, but what I found to be the best treat for them is vegetables!  The CAE particularly likes cucumbers and I have to put about three chunks in there so he doesn't claim them all.  I generally put three 1" thick pieces in, and within a day and a half every scrap of cuke is gone.  Anyways, just another idea for feeding your CAE and keeping him away from your fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7480 From: amalthea23 Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        while i agree with you about growth rate (mine have all grown several
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        inches a year, at least) stores around here (new york) are more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        happy to take large plecos as they sell them for a lot of money...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        amalthea
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        On Dec 28, 2004, at 9:27 PM, Patrick, The American Fish Guy wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >     What kind of weird plecos do you have? :)  Mine grew from about 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches to about 5 inches in one year in a 10 gallon tank, and has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grown another inch in my 29 gallon.  Even now in my 29 gallon it pulls
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > up plants, turns over decorations, and occasionally tries to knock off
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > the lid.  From what I have read, that is normal.  Maybe you don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > common plecos.  There are several that don't get more than 6 inches,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and some that don't get to 5 inches, like the bristle nose.  There is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > also a hillstream loach.  The main problem with getting a temporary
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pleco is that you might not be able to give it away when it gets too
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > big.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://www.generationsbeyond.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        web design, print design, corporate identity services and more...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7481 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        the commons that i am referring to reach 18 inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        easily, but only grow 1-2 inches per year
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > What kind of weird plecos do you have? :) Mine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > grew from about 3 inches
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to about 5 inches in one year in a 10 gallon tank,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and has grown another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inch in my 29 gallon. Even now in my 29 gallon it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > pulls up plants, turns
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > over decorations, and occasionally tries to knock
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > off the lid. From what I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > have read, that is normal. Maybe you don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > common plecos. There are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > several that don't get more than 6 inches, and some
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > that don't get to 5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > inches, like the bristle nose. There is also a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hillstream loach. The main
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > problem with getting a temporary pleco is that you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > might not be able to give
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > it away when it gets too big.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cories, 1 pleco, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > gravel, Regent 10-15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > i have never had a pleco damage anything in 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > years,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > and it takes a really long time for them to grow
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > over
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 4 inches if buy them at 2 inches. check with your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lfs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > to see if they will take them in larger. the one i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > work at in ca takes them up to 20 inches or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7482 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I removed my guppies from the beta. What is the fuzzy stuff they leave is it their waste. I cleaned both tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7483 From: Scott Tucker Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Gold Barbs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am a new member. I was a happily active aquarium nut many years ago, until my tank cracked. I am getting back into it now that I have the room for a tank again, and I have been looking around at the stock around here in High Point, NC.  I actually have two questions, one local and one general knowledge.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        First, if there is anyone on this list from the triad area of NC, I would really appreciate info on any good fish stores.  The only thing I have been able to find around here are PetsMart and some small local business which seem to specialize in fungus and dead fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Secondly, and the main reason I am writing is because I have not been able to find any information on the Gold Barb.  I used to keep these, and really enjoyed them as they were very bright and colorful, yet did not have the aggressiveness most barbs seem to have.  Unfortunately, they seem to have all disappeared. I wonder if they have had a name change, as I have noticed that several of the fish I used to keep have had this happen, most notably the Serpae Tetra, which I have seen many places listed as Bleeding Heart Tetras and other names. If they have been renamed, does anyone know the current name? If not, does anyone know where I might find some?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Scott
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7484 From: paul helms Date: 12/28/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        perhaps moldy food?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I removed my guppies from the beta. What is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fuzzy stuff they leave is it their waste. I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > both tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7485 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        we didnt have any trouble till we put the guppies in there but we cleaned both out and separated still think its moldy food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        perhaps moldy food?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I removed my guppies from the beta. What is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > fuzzy stuff they leave is it their waste. I cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > both tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7486 From: lonelybbwmi2000 Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: brown algae
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks in my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All levels check out good, havent lost any fish. Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        anyone tell me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7487 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually brown algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you have a single tube flo light, the max output is 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > All levels check out good, havent lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyone tell me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7488 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually when people add more fish they increase food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much higher than it needs to be. figuring out what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one fish needs is a lot different from a group. it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just a htought, but if you are over feeding and there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is no clean up crew like cories.....it very well could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be. i said moldy, because you said fuzzy, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generally only bacteria and mold will be fuzzy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > we didnt have any trouble till we put the guppies in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there but we cleaned both out and separated still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think its moldy food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > perhaps moldy food?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I removed my guppies from the beta. What is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > fuzzy stuff they leave is it their waste. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > both tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > please delete this line and everything below it
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7489 From: lois Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        last week i replaced my lighting, now i have a 48" compact fluorescent light pack, with 2, 55 watt day lights bulbs, and 2 55 watt true actinic bulbs, and built in reflector , will this go away ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually brown algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you have a single tube flo light, the max output is 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        size. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >  All levels check out good, havent lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > anyone tell me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7490 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        usually when people add more fish they increase food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        much higher than it needs to be.  figuring out what
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        one fish needs is a lot different from a group.  it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        just a htought, but if you are over feeding and there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is no clean up crew like cories.....it very well could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        be.  i said moldy, because you said fuzzy, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        generally only bacteria and mold will be fuzzy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > we didnt have any trouble till we put the guppies in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > there but we cleaned both out and separated still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > think its moldy food
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] question
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   perhaps moldy food?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > I removed my guppies from the beta. What is the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > fuzzy stuff they leave is it their waste. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > cleaned
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   > both tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >   >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7491 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it should become green algae rather quickly, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is waaaaaaay overkill for fresh water. 2 55's would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have been plenty. right now you are over 4 watts per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon, which is going to grow massive amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        algae. having lots of live plants will drastically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cut down on the algae since they consume the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        things, but make sure you have plenty of plecos of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whatever variety you choose. if you are really going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to plant out the tank, i would get a fleet of ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they will clean the leaves without hurting the plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you ever want to change that tank to saltwater, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have enough lighting there to do anything you want,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        including all corals, pollyps, mushroom, and anemones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > last week i replaced my lighting, now i have a 48"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > compact fluorescent light pack, with 2, 55 watt day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lights bulbs, and 2 55 watt true actinic bulbs, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > built in reflector , will this go away ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:usually brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you have a single tube flo light, the max output is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > All levels check out good, havent lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anyone tell me?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7492 From: brakemanpr Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Looking for a Aquarium Log
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does any one have a Excell program or one like it for an Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Log. I am looking at keeping a report on my PC. I have listed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        my Equipment and other important information. If not I might be able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to write an excell program and was wondering other than the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        test results what other infor is important and when should it be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        recorded. I am new at this so any help would be greatfull. Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7493 From: Carly Smith Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well I am working on it being a nice setup. It isn't quite there yet. I am trying to stay away from having to put CO2 on it, and keep it fairly simple, which does limit plants, but it looks nice enough. Unfortunatly I get it all planted and looking nice and Stanley, the weather loach, burrows and digs everything up. I think I finally have a few plants away from his prime digging areas. Actually he is also good ground crew if you are looking for a fish to clean up leftover food etc. Very silly too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can sit and watch the fish for hours, though since we moved the 75 into the front foyer, there really isn't anywhere to sit...now you have to lean on the wall.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have also heard that plecos like brussell sprouts and zucchinni...I would try various veggies and see what works best. I would guess that various veggies would break down faster than others, so just make sure they aren't rotting in there before they get eaten...the cukes seems to last for sure for 2.5 days, beyond that they are all eaten so can't say for sure. Oh, to keep them down at the bottom I have a piece of slate with two elastics around it that I put the cukes under, the fish just work around the elastics.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I only have one lfs that is remotly close to me, so whenever they have neat pleco's or other fish (I got a farlowella one day, haven't seen him since...you would think it would be tough to lose a 5" fish, but I have) I pick them up. Turned down a bristle one day and am still kicking myself, wound up having to pay twice the price for one in the city.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have fun, they become addictive! I started with my one little Oscar, found out he needed a bigger tank, so got a bigger tank and another oscar friend, then put more fish in the one he was originally in, plus set up another empty tank....then a couple 10gallons, and finally bought the 75 from a friend. I now have my mom on a mission to find dwarf puffers for me on her trip to to US because I cannot find them anywhere on the island...will have to do some rearranging if she gets some for me! So as of right now, I have four tanks set up, and will be setting up another for a pair of convicts in the next couple days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Carly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        90gal Oscar tank, Marlin (the tiger) and Coral (the lutino)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        75 gal planted community
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gal planted platy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        10 gal planted with Chip, the betta
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        soon to come 27 gal convict tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks carly you have been an extreme help.. and you have my dream set up it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sounds like... I feel like I want to be your best friend instantly and come
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        over and watch your tanks all day long lol.... But really I appreciated the help
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        and will gets some cucs on my next visit to the store... Shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ps im also thinking about the bristle nose I think ill go see what the pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        store has and go from there since there are only two stores I will buy fish at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        now.. and I think one of them has mostly salt water...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7494 From: lois Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I got that light system, it was on sale for 49.99
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         at aquatraders.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         check it out, they are reasonable for their items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes i do plan on planting a lot of plants in there.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        it should become green algae rather quickly, but that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        is waaaaaaay overkill for fresh water.  2 55's would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have been plenty.  right now you are over 4 watts per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gallon, which is going to grow massive amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        algae.  having lots of live plants will drastically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cut down on the algae since they consume the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        things, but make sure you have plenty of plecos of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        whatever variety you choose.  if you are really going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        to plant out the tank, i would get a fleet of ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        they will clean the leaves without hurting the plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you ever want to change that tank to saltwater, you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        have enough lighting there to do anything you want,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        including all corals, pollyps, mushroom, and anemones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > last week i replaced my lighting, now i have a 48"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > compact fluorescent light pack, with 2, 55 watt day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > lights bulbs, and 2 55 watt true actinic bulbs, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > built in reflector , will this go away ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:usually brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > you have a single tube flo light, the max output is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > size. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > >  All levels check out good, havent lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > > anyone tell me?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Group: AquaticLife Message: 7495 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: joke
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7496 From: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogrou Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting, 1/1/2005, 6:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Reminder Reminder from the Calendar of FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Silicon Valley Aquarium Society ~ Meeting

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Saturday January 1, 2005
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This event repeats on the first Saturday of every month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Event Location: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave., San Jose CA, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Street: MEETING LOCATION: Round Table Pizza, 4302 Moorpark Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          City, State, Zip: San Jose, CA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Notes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Silicon Valley Aquarium Society meetings are held the first Saturday of every month in San Jose. See http://www.svas.info for more information

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7497 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: help catching CAE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK so i decided i would donate him to the local pet store i like.. no one will buy him or even trade him.. which i so don't get.... i mean what is the harm is giving me a freaking 2 dollar otto grr... wait the ottos were 1.50 at petsmart so as soon as i get rid of him ill get i think 3 ottos.. now i have tried for the past hours to catch him.. i so cant... anyone know any tricks.. i don't want to rip my aquarium down trying to get him.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7498 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: britstlenose or otto...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK so which of these two are the best at eating algae and would work with my non aggressive tank... i was thinking otto but then many have said they get very lazy.... do they bristlenose get lazy as well.. thanks Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7499 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ottos don't get lazy, but they are a little hard to keep alive.  If they make it a couple of months they do ok.  I would say an otto would work in any size tank, a bristlenose would work in any tank 20 gallons and over.  Ottos can be kept 1 for each 5 gallons, bristlenose should only be kept alone unless they are being bred.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK so which of these two are the best at eating algae and would work with my non aggressive tank... i was thinking otto but then many have said they get very lazy.... do they bristlenose get lazy as well.. thanks Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7500 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Most fish stores I have seen have about a dozen per tank, so they probably aren't worth enough to take.  I would pay the extra 50 cents to get the otto from a real fish store.  All I can say for catching it is to keep on trying. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK so i decided i would donate him to the local pet store i like.. no one will buy him or even trade him.. which i so don't get.... i mean what is the harm is giving me a freaking 2 dollar otto grr... wait the ottos were 1.50 at petsmart so as soon as i get rid of him ill get i think 3 ottos.. now i have tried for the past hours to catch him.. i so cant... anyone know any tricks.. i don't want to rip my aquarium down trying to get him.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7501 From: Larry Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: restocking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so i was away for a few days over christmas, and when i got home, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          had a few fatalities. my african brown knife was dead. he had been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          acting rather unusual before i left. not sure what was wrong. and my 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          little clown loaches were all dead. had only gotten them like 2 weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          earlier. i am not sure what happened to them either. the rest of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish are all ok. my 3 dwarf gouramis, 2 dwarf puffers, a pictus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          catfish and a spiny eel. these are all in a 29 gallon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anyways, now i need to get another fish or 2 to restock and i had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          few ideas, but not so sure about some of the ones i want.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          saw a knight goby at a petsmart and i always wanted a goby, but i hear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they need really brackish water. how true is that? my current setup
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          has 1 tsp of salt per 5 gallons for the eel, and the puffers seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          like water w/ salt too. i made what i call a rookie mistake when i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          set up the tank originally, and instead of like driftwood and rocks, i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have greek ruins as the theme, with a hampster tube hidden in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gravel for a tunnel, and the biggest piece situated so that anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wanting to hide can get up under it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i found a pet store close that has a good selection of freshwater and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          marine fish (more marine than freshwater). they had a nice selection
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of loaches i hadn't seen before. had a golden loach and what appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to be a zebra loach. i want to go back tomorrow to look again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anybody have any good experience with them? how well do zebra and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          dojo, kuhli or clown loaches interact together? i am more into odd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish than like tiger barbs and angels. also saw an african leaf fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that was neat, but expensive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks for any advice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7502 From: jordanb_33 Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Looking for Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am looking for an aquarium to place 4 male gerbils in. Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          contact me if you have one or know where I could find some cheap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ones. Craked ones that don't hold water will work also!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7503 From: dorothy wheeler Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have brown algae in my jack dempsey tank, I don't think I dare put an algae eater in that tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just wipe it off. I don't really know what causes it, I have always had it.The parents and babies always do great in that tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dorothy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          usually brown algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you have a single tube flo light, the max output is 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          size. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  All levels check out good, havent lost any fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anyone tell me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7504 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/29/2004 8:45:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, jordanb_33@... writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am looking for an aquarium to place 4 male gerbils in. Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          contact me if you have one or know where I could find some cheap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ones. Craked ones that don't hold water will work also!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Many pet stores have 10 gallon tanks for about $10.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Try Freecycle, I was a able to pick up three tanks from three different people free.  Flea markets are great for tanks, also classified ads online and in local papers.  Garage sales are also a good source.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Where are you located?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7505 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          where are you located?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In a message dated 12/29/2004 8:45:30 PM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > jordanb_33@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I am looking for an aquarium to place 4 male
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gerbils in. Please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > contact me if you have one or know where I could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > find some cheap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ones. Craked ones that don't hold water will work
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > also!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Many pet stores have 10 gallon tanks for about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > $10.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Try Freecycle, I was a able to pick up three tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > from three different
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > people free. Flea markets are great for tanks, also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > classified ads online and in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > local papers. Garage sales are also a good source.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Where are you located?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7506 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          make sure they are true ottos...that is on the cheap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          side., and they may not be what they are advertised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > OK so i decided i would donate him to the local pet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > store i like.. no one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will buy him or even trade him.. which i so don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > get.... i mean what is the harm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is giving me a freaking 2 dollar otto grr... wait
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the ottos were 1.50 at
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > petsmart so as soon as i get rid of him ill get i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > think 3 ottos.. now i have tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for the past hours to catch him.. i so cant...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anyone know any tricks.. i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > don't want to rip my aquarium down trying to get
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > him.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7507 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so how would getting like 3 Otto's and one brittleness would that work... and why are the otos a bit hard to keep alive any tips to keep them healthy.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ottos don't get lazy, but they are a little hard to keep alive.  If they make it a couple of months they do ok.  I would say an otto would work in any size tank, a bristlenose would work in any tank 20 gallons and over.  Ottos can be kept 1 for each 5 gallons, bristlenose should only be kept alone unless they are being bred.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7508 From: paul helms Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you got a hell of a deal if that was 4 55w power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          compacts in there. those retail between 289 and 389
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I got that light system, it was on sale for 49.99
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at aquatraders.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > check it out, they are reasonable for their items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > yes i do plan on planting a lot of plants in there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it should become green algae rather quickly, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is waaaaaaay overkill for fresh water. 2 55's would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have been plenty. right now you are over 4 watts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gallon, which is going to grow massive amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > algae. having lots of live plants will drastically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cut down on the algae since they consume the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > things, but make sure you have plenty of plecos of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > whatever variety you choose. if you are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to plant out the tank, i would get a fleet of ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they will clean the leaves without hurting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if you ever want to change that tank to saltwater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have enough lighting there to do anything you want,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > including all corals, pollyps, mushroom, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anemones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > last week i replaced my lighting, now i have a 48"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > compact fluorescent light pack, with 2, 55 watt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > lights bulbs, and 2 55 watt true actinic bulbs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > built in reflector , will this go away ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you have a single tube flo light, the max output
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > All levels check out good, havent lost any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > anyone tell me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > please delete this line and everything below it
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7509 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I tried the 3 stores that I know of none have any Otto's only pet smart.. grr... and I so cant catch that stupid CAE.. making me to mad an di am giogn to end up stressing out the other fish so i am going to ask my mom to help me ill take out like 7 gallons get rid of my one ornament and hopefully catch him then.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Most fish stores I have seen have about a dozen per tank, so they probably aren't worth enough to take.  I would pay the extra 50 cents to get the otto from a real fish store.  All I can say for catching it is to keep on trying. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7510 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How do I know they are true Otto's they were so tiny... about an inch... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          make sure they are true ottos...that is on the cheap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          side., and they may not be what they are advertised
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          as.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7511 From: lois Date: 12/29/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yeah I know, a friend of mine told me about that site,  aquatraders.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           check it out

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you got a hell of a deal if that was 4 55w power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          compacts in there.  those retail between 289 and 389
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I got that light system, it was on sale for 49.99
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  at aquatraders.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  check it out, they are reasonable for their items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > yes i do plan on planting a lot of plants in there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it should become green algae rather quickly, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is waaaaaaay overkill for fresh water.  2 55's would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have been plenty.  right now you are over 4 watts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > per
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gallon, which is going to grow massive amounts of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > algae.  having lots of live plants will drastically
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cut down on the algae since they consume the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > things, but make sure you have plenty of plecos of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > whatever variety you choose.  if you are really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to plant out the tank, i would get a fleet of ottos,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they will clean the leaves without hurting the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > plant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if you ever want to change that tank to saltwater,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have enough lighting there to do anything you want,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > including all corals, pollyps, mushroom, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anemones.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > last week i replaced my lighting, now i have a 48"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > compact fluorescent light pack, with 2, 55 watt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > day
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > lights bulbs, and 2 55 watt true actinic bulbs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > built in reflector , will this go away ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:usually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > brown
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > algae is from insufficeint lighting...if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you have a single tube flo light, the max output
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > 40
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > watts, which is not enough for plants in a tak
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > size. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- lonelybbwmi2000 <lonelybbwmi2000@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I have discovered this brown algae on some rocks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > my tank, and on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > some live plants I have in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >  Its a 55G. and I've had it for 3 mo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >  All levels check out good, havent lost any
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Whats going on, can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > anyone tell me?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7512 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon,   Still can't catch the CAE?  Its always better to use two nets.  Put one slowly in his vicinity an use the other one to guide (chase) him in to it.  If that fails, try partitioning him off in a corner with a sheet of glass or plastic, if you have something like that, that you can use and net him from there.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7513 From: Steve Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Scott,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I know that there are a couple of good stores in the area, I've been down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          there a couple of times, but couldn't tell you the exact names or locations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You should look up the Raleigh club, and hook up with them--you'll learn a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          lot more than where the good stores are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You'll find information about them here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.fishclubs.com/nc/ras/main.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Their annual workshop will be held at the end of February. Anyone within
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          reach should try to attend. I'll probably head down thee this year as I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not been down for a couple of years and they do put on a good workshop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          \\Steve//

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Scott Tucker [mailto:wintercoast@...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          To: Tropical Fish Yahoo Group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          AquaticLife ] Gold Barbs


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am a new member. I was a happily active aquarium nut many years ago, until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my tank cracked. I am getting back into it now that I have the room for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank again, and I have been looking around at the stock around here in High
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Point, NC. I actually have two questions, one local and one general
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          knowledge.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          First, if there is anyone on this list from the triad area of NC, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          really appreciate info on any good fish stores. The only thing I have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          able to find around here are PetsMart and some small local business which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          seem to specialize in fungus and dead fish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Secondly, and the main reason I am writing is because I have not been able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to find any information on the Gold Barb. I used to keep these, and really
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          enjoyed them as they were very bright and colorful, yet did not have the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aggressiveness most barbs seem to have. Unfortunately, they seem to have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          all disappeared. I wonder if they have had a name change, as I have noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that several of the fish I used to keep have had this happen, most notably
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the Serpae Tetra, which I have seen many places listed as Bleeding Heart
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tetras and other names. If they have been renamed, does anyone know the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          current name? If not, does anyone know where I might find some?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Scott


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7514 From: Dan & Theresa Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: oto care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here is a link to an excellent article about keeping otos http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Bottom%20Feeder%20Frenzy/48796.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so how would getting like 3 Otto's and one brittleness would that work... and why are the otos a bit hard to keep alive any tips to keep them healthy.. shannon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7515 From: vreugde@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: CAE pains
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dear Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ray's idea was great.  Here' s another you can try.  Chase the CAE around the aquarium with something smaller, such as a spoon with a long handle.  Do it constantly until the CAE starts to look tired, not moving around very fast.  Then, before he has a chance to regroup, go after him with the net.  This is easier, and less frustrating than using a net, and it won't give the CAE as much relief when you have to maneuver the net around plants, rocks, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My sympathy to you on catching the CAE.  I've had a practice of getting small ones, putting them in the tank, letting them go after the algae, and then scooping them out when they get large or started going after other the other fish.  It got to be such a pain that I gave up.  I now have one oto (that survived out of seven), and a couple of what the lfs called Borneo Suckers.  But they're not able to keep up, so I'm waiting until one of the lfs (among three!) gets more oto's in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Martin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/29/2004 11:01:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I tried the 3 stores that I know of none have any Otto's only pet smart.. grr... and I so cant catch that stupid CAE.. making me to mad an di am giogn to end up stressing out the other fish so i am going to ask my mom to help me ill take out like 7 gallons get rid of my one ornament and hopefully catch him then.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7516 From: Rob Robinson Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: FLUVAL PLUS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In need of a new internal filter, I decided on another Fluval, an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          upgrade from 3 to 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I was suprised to find that they now do a Fluval Plus, and plumped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for one of those.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A 15 minute journey to my retailer, and I received a quote for £55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for one of these. I decided against this and had a brief Google
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          search for one. After about 3 seconds of hard searching I found this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          site:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.aquariumsuperstore.co.uk/default.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For £29.65 and a few pounds p&p I found it hard to resist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A great place to shop and an amazing piece of kit. The new Fluval
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          range (are they new or am I behind the times?) are excellent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Rob.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7517 From: joequality1980 Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: non-upside-down cory
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a bronze corydoras cat (not an upside-down one), yet he seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to rather enjoy swimming upside-down at the surface, especially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          during feeding of the regular fish. I'm not concerned about his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          behaviour (maybe its just a phase), but am curious if anyone else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          has seen this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7518 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/30/2004 12:00:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, lonelybbwmi2000@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yeah I know, a friend of mine told me about that site,  aquatraders.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           check it out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I went to their store, and they have great prices on pumps, filters, lights, and tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have been meaning to get back there and pick up a canister filter and a protein skimmer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7519 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wow you guys arent having any luck with the Otto's i didn't realize keeping them alive was so hard... i am going to try the spoon method.. just don't want him to fall over dead lol from exhaustion but at this point maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing lol shnanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dear Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ray's idea was great.  Here' s another you can try.  Chase the CAE around the aquarium with something smaller, such as a spoon with a long handle.  Do it constantly until the CAE starts to look tired, not moving around very fast.  Then, before he has a chance to regroup, go after him with the net.  This is easier, and less frustrating than using a net, and it won't give the CAE as much relief when you have to maneuver the net around plants, rocks, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My sympathy to you on catching the CAE.  I've had a practice of getting small ones, putting them in the tank, letting them go after the algae, and then scooping them out when they get large or started going after other the other fish.  It got to be such a pain that I gave up.  I now have one oto (that survived out of seven), and a couple of what the lfs called Borneo Suckers.  But they're not able to keep up, so I'm waiting until one of the lfs (among three!) gets more oto's in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Martin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7520 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have one however new to my tank I have not seen it do that how old is that lil guy.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a bronze corydoras cat (not an upside-down one), yet he seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to rather enjoy swimming upside-down at the surface, especially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          during feeding of the regular fish. I'm not concerned about his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          behaviour (maybe its just a phase), but am curious if anyone else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          has seen this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7521 From: lois Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Rob,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           another site is aquatraders.com   reasonable prices on all their equipment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Rob Robinson <zombie.god@...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In need of a new internal filter, I decided on another Fluval, an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          upgrade from 3 to 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I was suprised to find that they now do a Fluval Plus, and plumped
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for one of those.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A 15 minute journey to my retailer, and I received a quote for �55
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for one of these. I decided against this and had a brief Google
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          search for one. After about 3 seconds of hard searching I found this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          site:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.aquariumsuperstore.co.uk/default.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          For �29.65 and a few pounds p&p I found it hard to resist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A great place to shop and an amazing piece of kit. The new Fluval
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          range (are they new or am I behind the times?) are excellent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Rob.










                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7522 From: Suzanne Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Happy Holidays! Can anyone help this newbie with breeding?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi everyone! Hope everyone is having a lovely holiday.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My BF has 3---now 4 tanks---two 30 gallon, 1 - 20, and for X-mas he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          got a 10 gallon for the bedroom. The reason "Santa" bought him a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gallon is that he has had several fish in the past year that appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pregnant, and while the results have not been good, he is hoping to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          improve that. He did manage, through no effort of his own to have 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          baby danio survive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyway, right now, he has a very pregnant tiger barb. And is trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to figure out what to do with it. The 10 gallon is up and running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and has had a dozen neons in it for about two weeks. He is thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of moving the neons to a different tank and putting the tiger barb in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that tank.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There is one other tiger barb we think might be the male. He has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          little green on his top fin which the others do not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here are my questions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1 - Can we move this very pregnant fish without stressing her out and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          killing her?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2 - Should she go by herself, or does she need a mate?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3 - Is are suspicion about which is the male correct, or are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          other tell-tale signs?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          4 - If it's better to leave her where she is, what other things could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          we or should we do to increase the odds of surviving babies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I hope none of these ??? sound too stupid...We've had great luck with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          all of the tanks, but haven't really looked into actually breeding.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Any help anyone might offer would be greatly appreciated....please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          email directly at stellanwillie@c.... Thanks so much!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7523 From: Angela Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Very New Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aquarium. We have set up the tank, let it function fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          several days, tested the water, and added two fish - Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra. My questions relate to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of the water. When I set up the tank, I used tap water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          poured it in and added the dechlorinator. I know, that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are fish, the water needs to be the same temperature (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the tank water. How do I accomplish this? Should I add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with an instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the tank? Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I achieve the 78 degrees. It's winter and my house is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          degrees.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks so much in advance for any help you may provide. I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to do this right. I think the fish are beautiful and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are very excited about our new additions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7524 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why does it get so cloudy with guppies? What can I do to fix that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7525 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yea today been trying to two net method and well i need to get some stuff out of my tank there are just too many hiding spots... so i will do a water change take some ornaments out and catch the bugger if i have to go in the tank with him lol Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon,   Still can't catch the CAE?  Its always better to use two nets.  Put one slowly in his vicinity an use the other one to guide (chase) him in to it.  If that fails, try partitioning him off in a corner with a sheet of glass or plastic, if you have something like that, that you can use and net him from there.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7526 From: Iksnip@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Beginning Tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Living in the Chicago downtown area I was interested in starting a freshwater tank, say perhaps 50 gallons that i eventually hope to upgrade.  I would like to start simple with perhaps some easy to maintain fresh water fish, live plants, and perhaps some other small species.  In pricing i was interested to know what i can expect to pay for a 50 gallon tank, what type of filter to purchase, and what other supplies would be relevant?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          any help is appreciated :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ken
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7527 From: Ron Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Happy Holidays! Can anyone help this newbie with breeding?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here is a good web site that may answer some of your questions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Btetrazona.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <stellanwillie@c...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi everyone! Hope everyone is having a lovely holiday.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My BF has 3---now 4 tanks---two 30 gallon, 1 - 20, and for X-mas he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > got a 10 gallon for the bedroom. The reason "Santa" bought him a 10
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gallon is that he has had several fish in the past year that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          appeared
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pregnant, and while the results have not been good, he is hoping to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > improve that. He did manage, through no effort of his own to have 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > baby danio survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Anyway, right now, he has a very pregnant tiger barb. And is trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to figure out what to do with it. The 10 gallon is up and running
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and has had a dozen neons in it for about two weeks. He is thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of moving the neons to a different tank and putting the tiger barb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > There is one other tiger barb we think might be the male. He has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > little green on his top fin which the others do not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Here are my questions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 1 - Can we move this very pregnant fish without stressing her out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > killing her?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 2 - Should she go by herself, or does she need a mate?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 3 - Is are suspicion about which is the male correct, or are there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > other tell-tale signs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 4 - If it's better to leave her where she is, what other things
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > we or should we do to increase the odds of surviving babies?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I hope none of these ??? sound too stupid...We've had great luck
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > all of the tanks, but haven't really looked into actually breeding.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Any help anyone might offer would be greatly appreciated....please
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > email directly at stellanwillie@c.... Thanks so much!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7528 From: Audrey Archer Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Aquarium Log
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, Don.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I found a program thru on-line searching, it is called AQUARIX - the demo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          version I was able to get for free, but I liked it and sprang for the full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          version on a CD. (It was created by a German gentleman - apparently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aquarists are pretty enthusiastic there - but he has English language
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          available on the software.) I used it to record my daily info while cycling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my first tank - it also allows you to track your expenses, disease outbreaks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          / treatments, fry, equipment maintenance... pretty much anything you do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Before I found that program, I was looking for one designed for pocketPC
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (IpAQ) format... or a pocket Excel template. Couldn't find one. I created a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          spreadsheet in MS Excel, at least for my water parameters. Problem was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          trying to view the spreadsheet on those darn tiny screens... ha ha. (OT - I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          also created one for my low-sodium diet, trying to get the calories and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nutrients I needed and still stay under 1800 mG of sodium - awrgh. Lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          quite a bit of weight - couldn't get enough calories. Not using that one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          anymore... I just try to stay away from the more obvious salty stuff.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          MS Excel is pretty easy to use to make speadsheets - you can just use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          different page tab for each tank, and each thing you are tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (Spreadsheets are not really a "program"... Excel is the "program".) Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          want a template from my old Excel spreadsheet I started? (Have to wait until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          after the New Year - memory got wiped out on my pocketPC so I only have it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          at work on my desktop there - don't have Excel on my home PC.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The Aquarix software graphs water parameters automatically - with Excel you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          would have to do some slight tweaking to get your graphs, if you want them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I didn't graph mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Audrey

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ________________________________________________________________________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message: 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:44:30 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "brakemanpr" <brakemanpr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Looking for a Aquarium Log





                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Does any one have a Excell program or one like it for an Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Log. I am looking at keeping a report on my PC. I have listed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          my Equipment and other important information. If not I might be able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to write an excell program and was wondering other than the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          test results what other infor is important and when should it be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          recorded. I am new at this so any help would be greatfull. Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7529 From: vreugde@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dear Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          True, but otocinclus are worth all the effort...great little fish, never hurt anybody, they just keep doin' their thing, something we can all learn from!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Martin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:08:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wow you guys arent having any luck with the Otto's i didn't realize keeping them alive was so hard... i am going to try the spoon method.. just don't want him to fall over dead lol from exhaustion but at this point maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing lol shnanon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7530 From: brakemanpr Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Aquarium Log
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks alot. I have been playing with the demo all night. I am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          going to order the full version. Thanks for the help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Don


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, "Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Archer" <arch1574@b...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi, Don.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I found a program thru on-line searching, it is called AQUARIX -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the demo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > version I was able to get for free, but I liked it and sprang for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the full
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > version on a CD. (It was created by a German gentleman - apparently
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarists are pretty enthusiastic there - but he has English
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          language
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > available on the software.) I used it to record my daily info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          while cycling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > my first tank - it also allows you to track your expenses, disease
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          outbreaks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > / treatments, fry, equipment maintenance... pretty much anything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Before I found that program, I was looking for one designed for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          pocketPC
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (IpAQ) format... or a pocket Excel template. Couldn't find one. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          created a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > spreadsheet in MS Excel, at least for my water parameters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Problem was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > trying to view the spreadsheet on those darn tiny screens... ha
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ha. (OT - I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > also created one for my low-sodium diet, trying to get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          calories and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > nutrients I needed and still stay under 1800 mG of sodium - awrgh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > quite a bit of weight - couldn't get enough calories. Not using
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anymore... I just try to stay away from the more obvious salty
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          stuff.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > MS Excel is pretty easy to use to make speadsheets - you can just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          use a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > different page tab for each tank, and each thing you are tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (Spreadsheets are not really a "program"... Excel is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the "program".) Do you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > want a template from my old Excel spreadsheet I started? (Have to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wait until
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > after the New Year - memory got wiped out on my pocketPC so I only
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          have it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at work on my desktop there - don't have Excel on my home PC.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > The Aquarix software graphs water parameters automatically - with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Excel you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > would have to do some slight tweaking to get your graphs, if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          want them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I didn't graph mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Audrey
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          _____________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ___
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Message: 1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:44:30 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > From: "brakemanpr" <brakemanpr@y...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: Looking for a Aquarium Log
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Does any one have a Excell program or one like it for an Aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Log. I am looking at keeping a report on my PC. I have listed all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > my Equipment and other important information. If not I might be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          able
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to write an excell program and was wondering other than the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > test results what other infor is important and when should it be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > recorded. I am new at this so any help would be greatfull. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7531 From: paul helms Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cloidiness is usually caused by bacteria trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          catch up....meaning that the tank was either not fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycled, or not healthy enough to handle the additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          load. it will clear fairly quickly with addition of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          stress zyme, fritz zyme, or bio spira...not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          guppies fault. they are a very hardy low mess fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Why does it get so cloudy with guppies? What can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > do to fix that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7532 From: paul helms Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are you sure it is not some type of syn cat? or upside
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          down cat?? i have seen cors swim upside down, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for extended amounts of time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have one however new to my tank I have not seen it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > do that how old is that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > lil guy.. Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a bronze corydoras cat (not an upside-down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > one), yet he seems
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to rather enjoy swimming upside-down at the surface,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > especially
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > during feeding of the regular fish. I'm not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > concerned about his
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > behaviour (maybe its just a phase), but am curious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if anyone else
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > has seen this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7533 From: paul helms Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i hope that you do not expect those fish to live much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more than a few weeks. it takes 4-6 weeks for a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to develop the necessary biologic filter to mainatin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the tank. the tank cn be ccled with or without fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but no fish that are expected to live and be your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          population should be added for 5+ weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Angela <angelasjenkins@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarium. We have set up the tank, let it function
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > several days, tested the water, and added two fish -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra. My questions relate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the water. When I set up the tank, I used tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > poured it in and added the dechlorinator. I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are fish, the water needs to be the same temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank water. How do I accomplish this? Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank? Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I achieve the 78 degrees. It's winter and my house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > degrees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Thanks so much in advance for any help you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > provide. I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to do this right. I think the fish are beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are very excited about our new additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7534 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ok im going to clean it and treat it with new stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] guppies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cloidiness is usually caused by bacteria trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          catch up....meaning that the tank was either not fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycled, or not healthy enough to handle the additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          load.  it will clear fairly quickly with addition of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          stress zyme, fritz zyme, or bio spira...not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          guppies fault.  they are a very hardy low mess fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Why does it get so cloudy with guppies? What can I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > do to fix that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7535 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/30/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: what happened to me while trying to catch the CAE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK as if I don't have enough drama in mylife well I embarked on a whole bunch of it tonight.... So as I stated before I was going to do a water change but before I put the water back in I was giogn to take out the ornaments and catch the culprit... so I did all of that... too out 3 orminemnts.. The last one being the big tree stump.. So I have two buckets with water in them about 8 gallons tonight and about 10 gallons to go back in.... I have been vacuuming the gravel and realize that I just don't have enough frogs as I have 6 and I think I was seeing like 2 and then I was like omg where is the CAE.... So i tell my moms bf's daughter(there was a huge dinner at my house and she always helps me with my tanks lol) to go tell my mom to look in the log in the sink... i hear this scream apparently she was shaking it and the CAE landed on her hand... then i hear her scurrying and putting her in the container i had ready for her and i hear Brittany freaking out she is like there are fish in the sink my zebra botia and a frog were in the sink they had come out too... at this point i am feeling horrible i am telling ppl i don't deserve o have fish... and i am really upset.. the log had been in the sink for atleast 10 minutes and then prolly 5 while mymom was cleaning it.. im thinking great their dead or they are going to die.... so i put the stuff back in the tank fill it up and everything is ready for the stump to go back in.. so i notice that my mom didn't clean it very well and so i start cleaning it with scalding water oh yea i flip a frog comes out i am like this is nuts.... so i go put the frog in my tank thinking i boiled it.. but i wanted it in the tank so i could finish the stump... i give up rinse it off and put it in the tank.... so now hours have passed all the fish are alive so far and i think all accounted for.. i might be short one frog... not sure.... I have taken that stump out 3 times before and never was anything inside of it... what is my luck.. that thing is never coming out again... i cant handle that stress... so the CAE is in a bowl with a lid cause she was trying to jump out lol i have an air stone in there and tom she is going to a home somewhere lol... and i sure hope when i turn my lights on in the am i don't have floaters.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7536 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Calm down every new aquarist has made that mistake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          once or twice. When dealing with frogs and any type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of botia or catfish you have to check out all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ornaments throughly before cleanign (again another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mistake we have all made). At least you learned from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this experince and that is the main thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Owner Aquaticdreamz Aquarium trading group
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > OK as if I don't have enough drama in mylife well I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > embarked on a whole bunch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of it tonight.... So as I stated before I was going
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to do a water change but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > before I put the water back in I was giogn to take
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > out the ornaments and catch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the culprit... so I did all of that... too out 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > orminemnts.. The last one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > being the big tree stump.. So I have two buckets
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with water in them about 8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gallons tonight and about 10 gallons to go back
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in.... I have been vacuuming the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel and realize that I just don't have enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frogs as I have 6 and I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I was seeing like 2 and then I was like omg where is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the CAE.... So i tell my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > moms bf's daughter(there was a huge dinner at my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > house and she always helps me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with my tanks lol) to go tell my mom to look in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > log in the sink... i hear
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > this scream apparently she was shaking it and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > CAE landed on her hand...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > then i hear her scurrying and putting her in the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > container i had ready for her
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and i hear Brittany freaking out she is like there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are fish in the sink my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > zebra botia and a frog were in the sink they had
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > come out too... at this point i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > am feeling horrible i am telling ppl i don't deserve
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > o have fish... and i am
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > really upset.. the log had been in the sink for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > atleast 10 minutes and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > prolly 5 while mymom was cleaning it.. im thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > great their dead or they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > going to die.... so i put the stuff back in the tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fill it up and everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is ready for the stump to go back in.. so i notice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that my mom didn't clean it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > very well and so i start cleaning it with scalding
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water oh yea i flip a frog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > comes out i am like this is nuts.... so i go put the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frog in my tank thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i boiled it.. but i wanted it in the tank so i could
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > finish the stump... i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > give up rinse it off and put it in the tank.... so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > now hours have passed all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish are alive so far and i think all accounted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for.. i might be short one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > frog... not sure.... I have taken that stump out 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > times before and never was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > anything inside of it... what is my luck.. that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thing is never coming out
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > again... i cant handle that stress... so the CAE is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in a bowl with a lid cause she
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > was trying to jump out lol i have an air stone in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there and tom she is going to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a home somewhere lol... and i sure hope when i turn
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > my lights on in the am i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > don't have floaters.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7537 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks for that i don't really consider myself new... to the hobby i guess that is why i am upset with myself... and also i have taken that stump out many times before and it was always fine... so odd to me that so many were in there this time... maybe he knew i was coming after him lol shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Calm down every new aquarist has made that mistake
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          once or twice.  When dealing with frogs and any type
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of botia or catfish you have to check out all
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ornaments throughly before cleanign (again another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          mistake we have all made).  At least you learned from
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          this experince and that is the main thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7538 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:23:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, agentscullyeyore@... writes:<<thanks for that i don't really consider myself new... to the hobby i guess that is why i am upset with myself... and also i have taken that stump out many times before and it was always fine... so odd to me that so many were in there this time... maybe he knew i was coming after him lol shannon>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Fish can get into everything, I recently removed a kuhli loach from a canister filter.  I think he was in it for at least a month maybe more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think being out of the water 10 minutes will probably not kill them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You may want to try some stress coat in casse any of their skin coating got removed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7539 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          exact opposite of what it needs. if you over clean the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          gravel and filters, you are wiping out what keeps your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank healthy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ok im going to clean it and treat it with new stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > To: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cloidiness is usually caused by bacteria trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > catch up....meaning that the tank was either not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycled, or not healthy enough to handle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > load. it will clear fairly quickly with addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > stress zyme, fritz zyme, or bio spira...not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > guppies fault. they are a very hardy low mess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Why does it get so cloudy with guppies? What can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > do to fix that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7540 From: Deenerz@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/30/2004 2:47:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, angelasjenkins@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aquarium.  We have set up the tank, let it function fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          several days, tested the water, and added two fish - Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra.  My questions relate to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of the water.  When I set up the tank, I used tap water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          poured it in and added the dechlorinator.  I know, that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are fish, the water needs to be the same temperature (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the tank water.  How do I accomplish this?  Should I add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with an instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the tank?  Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I achieve the 78 degrees.  It's winter and my house is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          degrees.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks so much in advance for any help you may provide.  I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to do this right.  I think the fish are beautiful and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are very excited about our new additions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hello Angela,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Probably your biggest or most immediate concern is going to be a build up of Ammonia.  Aquariums need to go through a cycling period where beneficial bacteria colonizes your filter.  This allows the bacteria to process the fish waste and prevent a toxic buildup of waste.  At this point you may want to see if you can buy some live bacteria from your local fish store.  The name of a couple brands, Cycle and StressZyme, They may not save your fish in time, but they should help colonize your filter with beneficial bacteria.  Or more likely return the fish to the store for the moment until you build up the beneficial bacteria your tank and filter need.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You did great  when you used the dechlorinator, many of missed that when we started out.  Make sure your dechlorinator also takes care of Chloramines as well as chlorine.  Most water supplies have Chloramines in them now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As for using hot water, I would skip using the hot water.  At my father's home when I used hot water it killed off a tank, and I could see minerals or something else clouding the water.  Better to let a bucket of water rise to room temperature before adding.  And or when you add it, add it slowly a little at a time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You may also want to look on the web for fishless cycling. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Here is a link to it, it may also help explain the way a healthy aquarium functions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Many people swear by this method.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7541 From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Colleen and Theresa,  Additionally, the cloudiness may come from just overfeeding.  As pointed out, guppies are easily maintained and are not the cause of the cloudy water.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7542 From: angelasjenkins@comcast.net Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish survive.  I have read two books regarding the setting up of a freshwater aquarium and am dealing with a reputable dealer.  All three advise cycling with a small number of fish until the tank is established.  At that time, I will add more fish. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My question related to the changing of the water and maintaining the proper temperature of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i hope that you do not expect those fish to live much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          more than a few weeks.  it takes 4-6 weeks for a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to develop the necessary biologic filter to mainatin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the tank. the tank cn be ccled with or without fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          but no fish that are expected to live and be your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          population should be added for 5+ weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Angela <angelasjenkins@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarium.  We have set up the tank, let it function
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > several days, tested the water, and added two fish -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra.  My questions relate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the water.  When I set up the tank, I used tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > poured it in and added the dechlorinator.  I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are fish, the water needs to be the same temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank water.  How do I accomplish this?  Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank?  Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I achieve the 78 degrees.  It's winter and my house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > degrees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Thanks so much in advance for any help you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > provide.  I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to do this right.  I think the fish are beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are very excited about our new additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7543 From: Tim Fairchild Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On Friday 31 Dec 2004 22:08, angelasjenkins@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish survive. I have read two books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > regarding the setting up of a freshwater aquarium and am dealing with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > reputable dealer. All three advise cycling with a small number of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > until the tank is established. At that time, I will add more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My question related to the changing of the water and maintaining the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature of the water.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You shouldn't have that much trouble keeping these fish alive, tho the tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          can be more sensative to nitrites than others. Still, get yourself a test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for ammonia and nitrite, etc, and keep check. You'll probably want 25% waters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes 3 times per week for a month or more till the tank settles. Once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ammonia and nitrites drop you can go to weekly water changes or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tho fishless cysle is the new way I would still cycle with a small fish load,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          then slowly add fish to the tank and let the bacteria catch up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7544 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I disagree with Paul (we can't agree all the time). :)  I think those fish have a very good chance to survive.  I have abandoned my faith in fishless cycling.  All you have to do is closely watch the ammonia and nitrite levels, and if they get to high or the fish appear to be suffering, change 25% of the water.  You might have to do that several times a week, but it will keep them alive.  If you know someone with a tank that has been going for a while, ask them for some gravel.  About one half cup in a mesh net you can get for filters at the fish store can be put into most power filters to give the cycle a real boost.  I would also suggest turning the temperature up to 80° to help prevent diseases and to speed up the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For water changes, I use hot and cold water together to get close (within 5 degrees F) to the tank water.  I use my hand to feel the temperature.  I add the chlorout to the water before pouring it over into the tank.  Some people let their water sit for a few days.  I don't know why or what they think this does, but I don't see how it could do much more than let gasses get out.  My water is not cloudy when it comes out of the sink, so I just use it.  If your water is cloudy, it has air bubbles that will come out in a few minutes and then can be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tropical 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          aquarium.  We have set up the tank, let it function
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fishless for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          several days, tested the water, and added two fish -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Black Skirt 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra.  My questions relate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to the changing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          of the water.  When I set up the tank, I used tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water and just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          poured it in and added the dechlorinator.  I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that now there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are fish, the water needs to be the same temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (78 degrees) as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the tank water.  How do I accomplish this?  Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          add warm water 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          instant read 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          tank?  Or should 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to this, how do 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I achieve the 78 degrees.  It's winter and my house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          is far from 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          degrees.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks so much in advance for any help you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          provide.  I'm anxious 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to do this right.  I think the fish are beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          and my children 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          are very excited about our new additions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7545 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I found a pleco behind my aquarium (aqually my dog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          found it). It had jump out when I was cleaning 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          before andit was still aslive. Like I said before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          even experienced aquariust make that same mistake .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:23:33 AM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > agentscullyeyore@... writes:<<thanks for that i
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > don't really consider myself new...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to the hobby i guess that is why i am upset with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > myself... and also i have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > taken that stump out many times before and it was
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > always fine... so odd to me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that so many were in there this time... maybe he
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > knew i was coming after him
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > lol shannon>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Fish can get into everything, I recently removed a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > kuhli loach from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > canister filter. I think he was in it for at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a month maybe more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I think being out of the water 10 minutes will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > probably not kill them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You may want to try some stress coat in casse any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > their skin coating got
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > removed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7546 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How many guppies and what size tank is also another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          factor you have to consider.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exact opposite of what it needs. if you over clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel and filters, you are wiping out what keeps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank healthy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ok im going to clean it and treat it with new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > cloidiness is usually caused by bacteria trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > catch up....meaning that the tank was either not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > cycled, or not healthy enough to handle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > load. it will clear fairly quickly with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > stress zyme, fritz zyme, or bio spira...not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > guppies fault. they are a very hardy low mess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Why does it get so cloudy with guppies? What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > do to fix that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7547 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          one nore thing is that the Buenos Aires tetra will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          also outgrow a 20 they get big.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- angelasjenkins@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have read two books regarding the setting up of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > freshwater aquarium and am dealing with a reputable
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > dealer. All three advise cycling with a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > number of fish until the tank is established. At
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that time, I will add more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > My question related to the changing of the water and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > maintaining the proper temperature of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > i hope that you do not expect those fish to live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > much
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > more than a few weeks. it takes 4-6 weeks for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to develop the necessary biologic filter to mainatin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank. the tank cn be ccled with or without fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but no fish that are expected to live and be your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > population should be added for 5+ weeks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Angela <angelasjenkins@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > aquarium. We have set up the tank, let it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > function
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > several days, tested the water, and added two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra. My questions relate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > of the water. When I set up the tank, I used tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > poured it in and added the dechlorinator. I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > are fish, the water needs to be the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the tank water. How do I accomplish this? Should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > tank? Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the water sit for a few days before adding - if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I achieve the 78 degrees. It's winter and my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > degrees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Thanks so much in advance for any help you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > provide. I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to do this right. I think the fish are beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > are very excited about our new additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7548 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Go get you a heater for the tank it is really easy to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          operate and maintain. Don't get a cheap one make sure
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          it is a good one (cheap ones have a habit of blowing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the filler). Such as Jager.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Deenerz@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In a message dated 12/30/2004 2:47:04 PM Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > angelasjenkins@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarium. We have set up the tank, let it function
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > several days, tested the water, and added two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > - Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra. My questions relate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the water. When I set up the tank, I used tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > poured it in and added the dechlorinator. I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are fish, the water needs to be the same
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank water. How do I accomplish this? Should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > an instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank? Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I achieve the 78 degrees. It's winter and my house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > degrees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Thanks so much in advance for any help you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > provide. I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to do this right. I think the fish are beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are very excited about our new additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Angela in Richmond, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Hello Angela,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Probably your biggest or most immediate concern is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > going to be a build up of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ammonia. Aquariums need to go through a cycling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > period where beneficial
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria colonizes your filter. This allows the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria to process the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > waste and prevent a toxic buildup of waste. At this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > point you may want to see
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if you can buy some live bacteria from your local
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish store. The name of a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > couple brands, Cycle and StressZyme, They may not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > save your fish in time, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they should help colonize your filter with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > beneficial bacteria. Or more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > likely return the fish to the store for the moment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > until you build up the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > beneficial bacteria your tank and filter need.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You did great when you used the dechlorinator, many
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of missed that when we
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > started out. Make sure your dechlorinator also
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > takes care of Chloramines as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > well as chlorine. Most water supplies have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Chloramines in them now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > As for using hot water, I would skip using the hot
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water. At my father's
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home when I used hot water it killed off a tank, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I could see minerals or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > something else clouding the water. Better to let a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bucket of water rise to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > room temperature before adding. And or when you add
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it, add it slowly a little
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at a time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You may also want to look on the web for fishless
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Here is a link to it, it may also help explain the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > way a healthy aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > functions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > _http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html_
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Many people swear by this method.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7549 From: harryfisherman Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: A new years resolution???
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Let's take 2 seconds of our time and delete the name change info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          from the subject line before we post. There is hardly any room left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for important concerns.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7550 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] gup...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Colleen and Theresa,  Additionally, the cloudiness may come from just overfeeding.  As pointed out, guppies are easily maintained and are not the cause of the cloudy water.  Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7551 From: colleen and theresa Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          how big of a tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Ron F
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 8:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be AquaticLife ] guppies

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How many guppies and what size tank is also another
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          factor you have to consider.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > exact opposite of what it needs. if you over clean
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel and filters, you are wiping out what keeps
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank healthy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ok im going to clean it and treat it with new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > stuff
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   From: paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   To:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > group name soon to be AquaticLife ] guppies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   cloidiness is usually caused by bacteria trying
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   catch up....meaning that the tank was either not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fully
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   cycled, or not healthy enough to handle the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > additional
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   load.  it will clear fairly quickly with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > addition
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   stress zyme, fritz zyme, or bio spira...not the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   guppies fault.  they are a very hardy low mess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   --- colleen and theresa <crcarnevale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   > Why does it get so cloudy with guppies? What
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >   > do to fix that?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7552 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          letting the water sit for a few days is to allow it to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          come to rrom temperature without using hot water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          when hot water is used there is a higher chance of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          getting dissolved copper into your water, which in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          high amounts will kill anything with out a back bone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          or without scales. while it is not extremely likely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i have seen it reach fatal amounts by doing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I disagree with Paul (we can't agree all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > time). :) I think those
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish have a very good chance to survive. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > abandoned my faith in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fishless cycling. All you have to do is closely
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > watch the ammonia and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > nitrite levels, and if they get to high or the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > appear to be suffering,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change 25% of the water. You might have to do that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > several times a week,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > but it will keep them alive. If you know someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with a tank that has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > going for a while, ask them for some gravel. About
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > one half cup in a mesh
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > net you can get for filters at the fish store can be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > put into most power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filters to give the cycle a real boost. I would
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > also suggest turning the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature up to 80� to help prevent diseases and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to speed up the cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > For water changes, I use hot and cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > together to get close
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (within 5 degrees F) to the tank water. I use my
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hand to feel the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > temperature. I add the chlorout to the water before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > pouring it over into
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank. Some people let their water sit for a few
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > days. I don't know why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > or what they think this does, but I don't see how it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > could do much more than
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > let gasses get out. My water is not cloudy when it
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > comes out of the sink,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > so I just use it. If your water is cloudy, it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > air bubbles that will
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > come out in a few minutes and then can be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel, Regent 10-15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I am the very new owner of a 20 gallon freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tropical
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarium. We have set up the tank, let it function
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fishless for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > several days, tested the water, and added two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Black Skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tetra and Buenos Aires Tetra. My questions relate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the water. When I set up the tank, I used tap
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water and just
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > poured it in and added the dechlorinator. I know,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that now there
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are fish, the water needs to be the same temperature
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > (78 degrees) as
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank water. How do I accomplish this? Should I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > add warm water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to a fish-only bucket, check the tempurature with an
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > instant read
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > thermometer and add dechlorinator then add to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank? Or should
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the water sit for a few days before adding - if yes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to this, how do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I achieve the 78 degrees. It's winter and my house
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is far from 78
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > degrees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Thanks so much in advance for any help you may
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > provide. I'm anxious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to do this right. I think the fish are beautiful
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and my children
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > are very excited about our new additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Angela in Richmond, VA




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7553 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          biology has nothing to do with reputation. the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you are planning on keeping alive....that is why most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people use feeders. many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc. this is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          go up. i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle, just warning you that they may not survive it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mr. Murphy is usually at work here. if you want them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Tim Fairchild <tim@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > On Friday 31 Dec 2004 22:08,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > angelasjenkins@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have read two books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > regarding the setting up of a freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and am dealing with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > reputable dealer. All three advise cycling with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > small number of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > until the tank is established. At that time, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will add more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > My question related to the changing of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and maintaining the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > temperature of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You shouldn't have that much trouble keeping these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish alive, tho the tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can be more sensative to nitrites than others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Still, get yourself a test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for ammonia and nitrite, etc, and keep check. You'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > probably want 25% waters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes 3 times per week for a month or more till
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank settles. Once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ammonia and nitrites drop you can go to weekly water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tho fishless cysle is the new way I would still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle with a small fish load,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > then slowly add fish to the tank and let the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria catch up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7554 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks martin yep i am going to get i think 4 of them i have never had 4 of something so i think they will be my first quadpod lol omg that was so funny anyhow.... i am off to donate my CAE thanks for the help.. i think ill get the otto in maybe a few weeks. ill see after my big water change last night i want to make sure things are just perfect for them.... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dear Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          True, but otocinclus are worth all the effort...great little fish, never hurt anybody, they just keep doin' their thing, something we can all learn from!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Martin
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7555 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thanks yea that is the first thing i did squirt some of that stuff on them... i was lucky it was them not the fish cause we all know a fish wouldn't live that long out of water.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Fish can get into everything, I recently removed a kuhli loach from a canister filter.  I think he was in it for at least a month maybe more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think being out of the water 10 minutes will probably not kill them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You may want to try some stress coat in casse any of their skin coating got removed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7556 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh wow did your dog try and eat it.... And 2 days so they can really live that long out of water.. or did it die... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Shannon,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I found a pleco behind my aquarium (aqually my dog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          found it).  It had jump out when I was cleaning 2 days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          before andit was still aslive.  Like I said before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          even experienced aquariust make that same mistake .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7557 From: lois Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a 55 gal. and started out cycling with 3 platty's happy to say that they are still alive and doing well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do a water change ( 10 gal.) a week and everything is good. lucky me, And the brown algae is starting to go away with the help of my extra otto's I put in there, and with this new light fixture I have!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          biology has nothing to do with reputation.  the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you are planning on keeping alive....that is why most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people use feeders.  many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc.  this is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally.  if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          go up.  i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle, just warning you that they may not survive it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mr. Murphy is usually at work here.  if you want them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- Tim Fairchild <tim@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > On Friday 31 Dec 2004 22:08,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > angelasjenkins@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  I have read two books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > regarding the setting up of a freshwater aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and am dealing with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > reputable dealer.  All three advise cycling with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > small number of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > until the tank is established.  At that time, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > will add more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > My question related to the changing of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and maintaining the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > temperature of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You shouldn't have that much trouble keeping these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish alive, tho the tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > can be more sensative to nitrites than others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Still, get yourself a test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for ammonia and nitrite, etc, and keep check. You'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > probably want 25% waters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes 3 times per week for a month or more till
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the tank settles. Once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ammonia and nitrites drop you can go to weekly water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Tho fishless cysle is the new way I would still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle with a small fish load,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > then slowly add fish to the tank and let the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > bacteria catch up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >   Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  Email       mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  Homepage    http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >  Photos      http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          please delete this line and everything below it when replying, thanks




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7558 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It is very hard to kill a pleco.  They can live in mud for a while. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh wow did your dog try and eat it.... And 2 days so they can really live that long out of water.. or did it die... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7559 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You can't really delete it.  It is automatically placed there by the yahoo group system.  Any attempt to delete it will just make the thing longer because it will add a second Re: at the beginning of the whole thing! :(  The good news is it is supposed to be changed at midnight! :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Let's take 2 seconds of our time and delete the name change info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          from the subject line before we post. There is hardly any room left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for important concerns.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Harry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7560 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wow really.... well mine is now in the goldfish tank at a fish store.... this store that i found about a month ago.. is not a new one like i thought it has been there for 17 years.. is owned by two brothers.. and they are very unique.. they wont sell a fish or anything to a new customer until the customer has purchased all the right tools to keep the fish alive... the store specialized in selling corals which lots of them they actually grow in the store.... the store would be a saltwater hobbyists dream.... they have some freshwater but not much... they also have a great stock of reptiles.. anyhow my point being.. it is nice to see a store wanting to teach and prosper in more the learning aspect rather than in the selling of masses... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It is very hard to kill a pleco.  They can live in mud for a while. :) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7561 From: alglea@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:41:13 A.M. Central Standard Time, wtfmorlok@... writes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I disagree a little with this.  I cycled my first tank - 26 gallon with three giant Danios, 2 Opaline Gouramis, and 2 Kissing Gourami's.   All Survived for the first 4 months.  I lost the smallest Opaline - but he was getting harassed big time by the other one.    I lost one of the Danio's after about 6 months to Dropsy.   About 8 months later - both of the kissing Gourami's died - not sure of the cause.   After 1 year though - I still have two of the Danio's and the big Opaline - all of which are huge healthy fish at this point.   So...not sure if the losses were from cycling or other issues - although I do think it may have eventually contributed to losses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Al
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7562 From: Patrick, The American Fish Guy Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Really that is a myth.  Except for fragile fish, most fish can survive the cycle, but it takes work.  Close attention to ammonia/nitrite levels and water changes are required.  That does slow the cycle, but it still cycles and keeps the fish healthy.  I do not suggest starting with "throw away fish" because it means you expect the fish to die, which is a waste of money.  I like the idea of using a fish that you plan to keep and do the work to keep it alive.  In the end you learn a lot more about keeping the tank healthy in the long run.  But you are right, Mr. Murphy is always behind every decoration in the tank.  But with the right amount of water changes, you can flush him right out. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          About my tanks:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2 home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns, hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus, amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel, Regent 10-15 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          biology has nothing to do with reputation.  the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you are planning on keeping alive....that is why most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          people use feeders.  many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc.  this is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally.  if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          go up.  i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cycle, just warning you that they may not survive it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mr. Murphy is usually at work here.  if you want them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          they do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7563 From: DB1RDMAN@WMCONNECT.COM Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Digest number 549 - DELETE NEW NAME
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 12/31/04 2:42:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com writes:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From: "harryfisherman" <harryfisherman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: A new years resolution???


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Let's take 2 seconds of our time and delete the name change info
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          from the subject line before we post. There is hardly any room left
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          for important concerns.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Let's also take a few more seconds to delete all extraneous material from the post to which we are replying.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7564 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          what part is the myth? i said if you don't want to do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water changes all the time.....and btw i use stress
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          zyme every 3 days when cycling and have not lost a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          fish during cycle and not done water changes during
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cyclces for the past 3 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Really that is a myth. Except for fragile fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most fish can survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the cycle, but it takes work. Close attention to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ammonia/nitrite levels and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water changes are required. That does slow the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle, but it still cycles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and keeps the fish healthy. I do not suggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > starting with "throw away fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > because it means you expect the fish to die, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is a waste of money. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like the idea of using a fish that you plan to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and do the work to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it alive. In the end you learn a lot more about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > keeping the tank healthy in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the long run. But you are right, Mr. Murphy is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > always behind every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > decoration in the tank. But with the right amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of water changes, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > flush him right out. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel, Regent 10-15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biology has nothing to do with reputation. the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you are planning on keeping alive....that is why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > people use feeders. many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > go up. i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle, just warning you that they may not survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mr. Murphy is usually at work here. if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they do.




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7565 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that is a prime example of what i was talking
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          about....a lot of losses of fish that should live for
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          several years at least
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- alglea@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:41:13 A.M. Central
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Standard Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wtfmorlok@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I disagree a little with this. I cycled my first
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > tank - 26 gallon with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > three giant Danios, 2 Opaline Gouramis, and 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Kissing Gourami's. All Survived
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > for the first 4 months. I lost the smallest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Opaline - but he was getting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > harassed big time by the other one. I lost one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of the Danio's after about 6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > months to Dropsy. About 8 months later - both of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the kissing Gourami's died -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not sure of the cause. After 1 year though - I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > still have two of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Danio's and the big Opaline - all of which are huge
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > healthy fish at this point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > So...not sure if the losses were from cycling or
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > other issues - although I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > do think it may have eventually contributed to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > losses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Al
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          __________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7566 From: paul helms Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          that is what i was talking about.....i don't do water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          changes...you do them weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I have a 55 gal. and started out cycling with 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > platty's happy to say that they are still alive and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > doing well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I do a water change ( 10 gal.) a week and everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is good. lucky me, And the brown algae is starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to go away with the help of my extra otto's I put in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > there, and with this new light fixture I have!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biology has nothing to do with reputation. the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you are planning on keeping alive....that is why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > people use feeders. many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > go up. i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle, just warning you that they may not survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mr. Murphy is usually at work here. if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Tim Fairchild <tim@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > On Friday 31 Dec 2004 22:08,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > angelasjenkins@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I have read two books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > regarding the setting up of a freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and am dealing with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > reputable dealer. All three advise cycling with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > small number of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > until the tank is established. At that time, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > will add more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > My question related to the changing of the water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > and maintaining the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > temperature of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > You shouldn't have that much trouble keeping these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish alive, tho the tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > can be more sensative to nitrites than others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Still, get yourself a test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > for ammonia and nitrite, etc, and keep check.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > You'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > probably want 25% waters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > changes 3 times per week for a month or more till
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > the tank settles. Once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > ammonia and nitrites drop you can go to weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > changes or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Tho fishless cysle is the new way I would still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > cycle with a small fish load,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > then slowly add fish to the tank and let the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > bacteria catch up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > please delete this line and everything below it when
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > replying, thanks
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7567 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          what ever works works but it takes a week for your
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          water to balance out after a waqter change so doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          weekly really in my opinion makes no sense.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Owner Aquatidreamz Group

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that is what i was talking about.....i don't do
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > changes...you do them weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- lois <lonelybbwmi2000@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I have a 55 gal. and started out cycling with 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > platty's happy to say that they are still alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > doing well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > I do a water change ( 10 gal.) a week and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > everything
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > is good. lucky me, And the brown algae is starting
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to go away with the help of my extra otto's I put
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > there, and with this new light fixture I have!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > paul helms <wtfmorlok@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > biology has nothing to do with reputation. the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you are planning on keeping alive....that is why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > people use feeders. many also used hardy cold
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > change water every couple days....then their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > go up. i am not slandering the practice of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > cycle, just warning you that they may not survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Mr. Murphy is usually at work here. if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > they do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > --- Tim Fairchild <tim@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > On Friday 31 Dec 2004 22:08,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > angelasjenkins@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > Well, obviously, I do hope these two fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > survive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > I have read two books
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > regarding the setting up of a freshwater
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > aquarium
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and am dealing with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > reputable dealer. All three advise cycling
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > with
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > small number of fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > until the tank is established. At that time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > will add more fish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > My question related to the changing of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > and maintaining the proper
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > > temperature of the water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > You shouldn't have that much trouble keeping
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > these
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > fish alive, tho the tetra
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > can be more sensative to nitrites than others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Still, get yourself a test kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > for ammonia and nitrite, etc, and keep check.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > You'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > probably want 25% waters
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > changes 3 times per week for a month or more
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > till
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > the tank settles. Once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > ammonia and nitrites drop you can go to weekly
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > changes or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Tho fishless cysle is the new way I would still
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > cycle with a small fish load,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > then slowly add fish to the tank and let the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > bacteria catch up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > tim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > --
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Tim & Therese Fairchild
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Atchafalaya Border Collies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Kuttabul, Queensland, Australia.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Email mailto:tim@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Homepage http://www.bcs4me.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > > Photos http://www.pbase.com/amosf
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ---------------------------------------------------------
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > >
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7568 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          where you from I am trying to find a store where they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          actually are out for the welfare of the fish and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the money behind it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > wow really.... well mine is now in the goldfish tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > at a fish store.... this
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > store that i found about a month ago.. is not a new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > one like i thought it has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > been there for 17 years.. is owned by two brothers..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and they are very
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > unique.. they wont sell a fish or anything to a new
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > customer until the customer has
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > purchased all the right tools to keep the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > alive... the store specialized
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > in selling corals which lots of them they actually
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > grow in the store.... the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > store would be a saltwater hobbyists dream.... they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > have some freshwater but
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not much... they also have a great stock of
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > reptiles.. anyhow my point being..
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it is nice to see a store wanting to teach and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > prosper in more the learning
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > aspect rather than in the selling of masses...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > It is very hard to kill a pleco. They can live in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > mud for a while. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >




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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7569 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          not only that but using feeders really makes the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          nitrates high they give off double the waste thus
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          double the nitratess
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- "Patrick, The American Fish Guy"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <americanfishguy@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Really that is a myth. Except for fragile fish,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most fish can survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the cycle, but it takes work. Close attention to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > ammonia/nitrite levels and
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > water changes are required. That does slow the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle, but it still cycles
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and keeps the fish healthy. I do not suggest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > starting with "throw away fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > because it means you expect the fish to die, which
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > is a waste of money. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > like the idea of using a fish that you plan to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > and do the work to keep
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it alive. In the end you learn a lot more about
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > keeping the tank healthy in
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > the long run. But you are right, Mr. Murphy is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > always behind every
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > decoration in the tank. But with the right amount
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > of water changes, you can
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > flush him right out. :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Patrick N.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Cycle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Nitrogen Cycle
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > About my tanks:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > skirt tetras, 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > home-raised mollies, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 3 juli
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cories, 1 pleco, one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > female betta, and 1 paradise gourami.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > banana plants, java ferns,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 30-60 power filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > 10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -4 betta splendens (born June 2004), 1 albino cory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -Plants: hornwort, java fern, red tiger lotus,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > amazon sword.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > gravel, Regent 10-15 power
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > filter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biology has nothing to do with reputation. the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you are planning on keeping alive....that is why
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > people use feeders. many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc. this is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > go up. i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle, just warning you that they may not survive
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mr. Murphy is usually at work here. if you want
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they do.


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7570 From: Ron F Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No the dog tried to play with it but got finned. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          was a klittle dried out but it lived and lived to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          13 inches lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Oh wow did your dog try and eat it.... And 2 days so
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they can really live
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > that long out of water.. or did it die... Shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Shannon,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > I found a pleco behind my aquarium (aqually my dog
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > found it). It had jump out when I was cleaning 2
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > days
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > before andit was still aslive. Like I said before
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > even experienced aquariust make that same mistake .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Ron
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7571 From: dreammaker2623 Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          --- In FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com, paul helms
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          <wtfmorlok@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > biology has nothing to do with reputation. the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > used in a fish cycle are not supposed to be the one
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you are planning on keeping alive....that is why most
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > people use feeders. many also used hardy cold water
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > fish like mollies, danios, guppies, etc. this is not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to say that they wll not survive, but there is les
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > than a 50/50 chance if you let it cycle naturally. if
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > you have the time to spend, as pat suggested, to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > change water every couple days....then their chances
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > go up. i am not slandering the practice of the fish
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > cycle, just warning you that they may not survive it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Mr. Murphy is usually at work here. if you want them
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > to survive the cycle they don't....if you don't care
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > --- Tim Fairchild <tim@b...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Who ever told you that mollies, guppies and danios swere ""hardy
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          cold water fish"? These fish are concidered "tropical" in that their
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          temp should be 70 degrees F. or above. Cold water fish would include
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          goldfish and fish that cme from more northern climates such as our
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          own (in the United States of America) or more southern like Southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          South America. Or in the countries where the temp goes down to
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          freezing or nearly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7572 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          wow i think i know what you mean about finned.. cause on the top of mine it had like these dorsal fins that would stick up when i tried to catch him.. that is a long time out of water and not in anything isn't it.. shannon
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No the dog tried to play with it but got finned.  It
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          was a klittle dried out but it lived and lived to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          13 inches lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Group: AquaticLife Message: 7573 From: agentscullyeyore@aol.com Date: 12/31/2004
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium ~ group name soon to be Aquatic
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Im in Portland Oregon... it was cool cause I did some question asking there and they showed me the old news paper and magazine clippings they have been in...... and it really shows how they are out for the good of the animals and not to just make a sale.. I think they make most of their money on selling the coral they grow. not that it int alive but you know.. I figured they would be just as picky about homes for the coral as they would be the fish after all the questions I heard them asking this new customer that was inquiring about getting some.. Shannon:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          where you from I am trying to find a store where they
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          actually are out for the welfare of the fish and not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the money behind it.